Okay, at this time we'll bring the December 22nd, 2025 city council work session to order. Item one, pension increase discussion. >> Yeah, Mr. Mayor and Council, uh we have a um we have Mr. Lashinsky with us here this evening to um kind of discuss the where the pension is currently at and um every year we kind of have this discussion about a possible increase and that's a decision that you guys get to make. So we have this on the work session this evening have it on the consent agenda uh for the regular agenda. So if you if you want to make any decision on that we'll have that available for this evening's decision. So I'll turn it over to Mr. Lucensky. Thank you. Uh thank you councel for giving the opportunity to discuss this this evening. I will take over the screen. I have a short PowerPoint presentation. It's probably the same one most of you have seen in the past. Um just to give a little update on where we are at. So basically as far as the fire pension goes, uh what we're going to cover is overview of the pension plan, our pension goals, the reason for a pension, the current status, we'll talk about city contributions for 2025 and beyond. I guess that would be 2026 and beyond, pension levels, and uh our request. So just the overview is the pension's in place to provide monetary benefit to members who have met the requirements which is at least five years of service uh and being the age of 50. Currently as of last year we moved our investments over to parah. So uh the plan is managed by parah and with oversight by the state. Uh the goals are as always to use that pension as a recruitment and retention tool. uh we want to maintain a fully funded pension plan. We want to provide retirees with accurate timely p uh payments. We want to always monitor these investment performances and we want to communicate effectively with our members and with the council. So if we talk about shortterm goals, we've met our short-term goals uh consistently and that's maintaining a self-sufficient 100% funded plan. And the long-term goal is a payout of $200,000 after 20 years of service, which would be $10,000 per year of service, which we're currently at 8,000. That's just a long-term goal. There's no time frame we're looking for that. So, when we talk about retention and why the pension's important. So, we have 21 members of our department that are currently vested, which means they've been on our department for at least 5 years, which is 64% of the members of our department. And that includes 339 years of experience, which is um it's a pretty impressive 94% of the total experience of our department are currently vested. Uh including 100% of our department officers. Takes roughly 3 years for a new recruit to be fully trained and experienced enough to operate confidently in emergency situations. Of course, everybody's a little different. Some people are up to speed within, you know, one year. some people um you know it takes the full three years but anyway it takes time is is the general thing here. So if we look at where does our revenue come from for the relief association for 2025 year to date our revenue sources a total of $316,000 which 36% of that comes from state aid which is the 2% money uh from the insurance companies. The city contribution of $14,000 makes up 4%. Other and miscellaneous is 1%. So that amount is a supplemental benefit that the state pays in the amount of $1,000 per pension paid the previous year. Uh that helps cover taxes for those uh folks that receive a pension. And then investment earnings consistently over the years makes up the majority of our um our revenues on a given year. So year to date, I just updated these numbers this morning, 187,562 for that. Where does the money go? So the money is in this fund specifically for only two things. Number one, administration, which after moving to PAR dropped incredibly from thousands of dollars per year down to under $2,000 a year. And then pensions paid out, which varies. Some years it's zero, like this current year, 2025, we haven't paid out any pensions. Um, last year it happened to be $226,000 for one deferred member and one member that had just retired. If we look over the years of where our um incomes are coming from as far as state aid and municipal aid, you can see that the state aid is increasing um every single year. uh and we're very happy that the municipal voluntary contribution has been very stable and steady which uh helps a lot. If we look at uh the history of our results too, this chart is uh always one that I really like to point out. So we always want our assets to be higher than our liabilities. So you can see we have a very um long track record of that happening except for the big crash back in 2008. So, uh, when that happened, we had two years where we were below, um, fully funded. Um, but basically, we always want to have a cushion. We want the black line to be higher than the red line, and we want it to be in an amount that we all feel comfortable um, that we're going to be fully funded. So all of this data is coming from verifiable sources, the PAR annual funding report and the report from the state auditor's office which are uh available online for anybody in the public to see. So what happens is once a year we get a report from parah that tells us where we're at. It tells us where they think that we'll be at the end of the year. And then it also indicates our funding ratio and whether there should be a mandatory municipal contribution to make sure that we're fully funded. So where we're at this year is uh we're 109% funded. Uh which means there would be no mandatory contribution. And then what they do is they throw together I don't know I don't know where they come up with the numbers but a $100 increase, a $200 increase, and a $1,000 increase. I didn't ask for those numbers. That's just what they provide to every single city that is on the plan. We do things a little differently. What we do is we take those numbers and we look at where [clears throat] we're at for rate of return year to date. We look at how many members that we're thinking that we're going to have next year because that does have an impact on what the uh liability would be. So, for example, the graph that I'm showing you at the top here, the plus four is indicating we're assuming we'll have four additional members next year versus what we had this year. So, the numbers that Para provided here is assuming that we're going to have the same number of members that we had last year the next year. So we are currently at plus four members. Um um we've uh been able to bring on four additional members this year. So we are fully expecting to be at plus4 next year. The rate of return which has been uh increasing is currently at 7.06 06 uh% uh which brings us if we were to increase the pension to $8,400 per year, that still would leave us at $104% funded, which still leaves us a cushion in case uh there is a market correction or the market changes in a way that we don't expect it to. Uh I'm going to talk a little bit more about that uh in a couple slides here, but we feel very confident, especially with it being so late in the year, that we're going to end uh fully funded on December 31st, which is when all the calculations start over. So next year we would get a another uh report from PAR uh sometime in the end of July that will talk about what happened in calendar year 2025 and what they would expect to happen throughout 2026. So let's just say that there was a market correction and the stock market went down drastically. The way that it would work is there would be no mandatory contribution no matter what in 2026. If the report came out in 2026 that there was a correction, uh the mandatory contribution would take place in 2027 if that was the case. So if we look at our rate of return, so when we started this project um back in July when we first received the report from PAR, it didn't look like it was a good time to ask for a benefit increase because the rate of return at that time was not good. And as the year has progressed, you can see that the rate of return has increased pretty steadily. Uh and we're looking at the uh the statement dates are down at the bottom. So, uh, as of the end of October, I'm sorry, at the end of, um, at the end of November, uh, the current rate of return is over 7%. Now, the red line on there is indicating the rate of return that PAR allows us to assume. So that works out well for our projections, but it also works out well for the council uh and for the city in the case there is a market correction and we go into a underfunded situation because the way that it works is when we're calculating out the um the projection of where we're going to end at the end of the year, we can use the the 6% as an assumed um rate of return that we will receive. So no matter what the situation is in the market, the city and the pension fund always gets to assume a 6% uh rate of return. So another thing that I want to point out um and this is something that we've talked about here is um when we when we talk about the pension fund, we really have to think that this is not like the stock market. Even though the money is invested in the stock market, it is not the same as somebody's 401k or somebody's personal stock portfolio. It is just a tool that the state of Minnesota uses to manage the funds in the pension. And the funds are invested in a very safe and very conservative manner. So if you look at where the funds are invested, first of all, volunteer fire departments only have six different choices on where that money can be invested and they are all safe funds. You can see the rate of returns over long term are are steady. Um you don't see this wild ups and downs like you would if you're investing in Google or Tesla or any of the other um volatile stocks out there. So, um, we're not going to make giant numbers, but we're also not going to lose giant numbers because all of the funds are in very stable funds. And, uh, what you see in blue on the left hand side is the percentage of where our funds are into which available options within the state board of investments. So, just wanted to point out that um in addition to the community um you know the services that we provide to the community uh responding to calls and maintaining uh equipment and going to training. The East Fire Department is also involved with a lot of other things within our community. So, there is a safety prevention or a fire safety program at the local schools that takes place every year. There is the heart safe program where we teach citizens about ED use and how to do CPR. Uh we are still the charter organization for a cup scout pack which is 387. We do have the fire auxiliary which uh does a lot of amazing things in our community like roadside cleanup. Um they provide kits for folks that have been displaced at their homes and they uh make a large donation to NACE every year. Uh we do provide first aid training for scouts uh local BMX group. We did it recently at uh station one for the scout group that u Miss Prickle is involved with. Uh we do have a retirees monthly gathering. Uh we support various organizations throughout our community including Nace. Uh we do a Santa parade every year where we do some food shelf collection as well. Uh so what we are requesting as our fund does support an increase of $400 per year service with the new benefit of $8,400 per year service starting on January 1st in 2026. So, just as a summary, in 2025, we did maintain our goal of 100% funded. And to help maintain this goal, we just need healthy investments, prudent uh and competitive benefit levels, consistent city contributions, and maintaining a outstanding relationship between the members and the city. So, I guess I will at this point open it up for any questions, and I can go back to any of the slides that you'd like to ask questions about or have more uh information from me provided to you. I just want to clarify this increase is coming from the investments, not from taxpayers. Correct. That's what I thought. I I also have a question on that 187,000. Um that's there somewhere. >> This one >> um is that what comes in? Is that an annual figure or and it accumulates or is that something that's slowly accumulates to get to that number? >> Yep. So that's the uh that just happens to be the investment earnings that we've made year to date. So this picture right here is actually at the bottom of the slide here. That is our actual from our portfolio. That's the rate of return uh this year. So that 7.06% 06% um is where this $187,562 came from. So this is throughout the entire year. So every month we get a statement and that's the [snorts] money grows and grows and grows and that that's where we are at as of the last statement which we received on uh the last day of uh November. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. And and you're correct. I just did want to reiterate that this in theory has no fiscal impact on the city because the money is in a fund specifically to pay out pensions to the firefighters. >> And if you had to pay out for firefighters in one year and it went became under then they would have to what did you what was the word you use? uh mandatory um don't >> yeah mandatory contribution. So with that said though it would never happen for um a retirement. So the fund is fully funded specifically to pay out our firefighters. So for example our current balance as of right now today I'm using rough numbers but we're at $2.9 million. So if you look at the liability that we have today it's $2.6 million. So, let's just say that everybody quit today, which would make for a very interesting duty week for me. Um um we would still have $300,000 in the in the pot to pay out pensions. Now, with that said, when they calculate our assumed liability, they're assuming everybody's going to be here for 20 years. So, let's take a firefighter that's been here for five years. Their pension for five years times $8,000 today would be $40,000. but they're only 40% vested. So the real amount that we're liable is $16,000. So today, if everybody quit, we would literally pay out $2.1 million. And we have $2.9 million in the fund, which would be $800,000 left over. And I know I'm throwing a lot of numbers at you, but I've also been doing this for a long time. >> So I'm very comfortable with the numbers. Um I don't know already. How long have I 15 years? 16 years. >> Yeah. >> So, >> good job. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Any other questions for Tro comments? >> Yeah, you're doing one heck of a job with this. >> Well, thank you. We are. >> All right. Thank you, Troy. >> All right. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak. Do we want to have a consensus to add this to the uh uh meeting agenda then? >> It's on >> Mr. Mayor and Council, it is on the agenda this evening already. So, you can >> up down vote at that point. Yeah. >> Okay. I I know it was on it, but >> it's under it was uh >> in the consent agenda. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I think in the description it was depend on the results of the work meeting. Yeah. So, >> okay. Very good. All right, moving on. Item two, I'm advertising and design. Mr. Mayor and Council, um we had um a council member bring forward a um kind of a concern with the quality of our newsletter and um timeliness and some other things. And um so we started looking into what it takes to produce a newsletter um and the amount of time and um and and quite honestly staff is uh is well with some of the um staff turnover and responsibilities kind of being shared amongst everyone. I think it's it's kind of being pushed to a back burner a little bit. But I wanted to um what I have in front of you here is Prime Advertising and Design. and they are a firm that that spec uh specifically does do newsletters for cities. And um I've got just a a uh that gives you a visual here of some of the newsletters that they do. Uh so essentially they'll do the design. Uh we would send them the content and uh they would place it in there. They would send it back to us to review it and make sure it's accurate and then they would take care of um sending it off to the printer uh having it printed, sending it off to the post office, having it delivered based on the list that we provide. Uh currently right now we do the design in-house. Uh we are not designers. Uh, and I would uh I compliment those that that do the work and try to do the work, but it's a um uh you know to be a graphic designer is a discipline that that people earn rightfully. And um and so um we do provide some of the content. A lot of our department heads of course we go around and say okay what's the hot issues that you want to have addressed in newsletter? Sometimes council says we would like to see something in newsletter. So, and many times council members, I know council member Miller has submitted articles as well uh for newsletters. Um and then we try and fit it into there and and try and get it out. Um this would help simplify the matter, but it does come at a cost. Um I will go back here to this page here. So essentially right now our last newsletter was um um $3 $3,444 and um if I'm adding this up correctly, it would be about a $10,000 increase over the year. So, we have four different uh publications that we send out in a given year uh quarterly and it'd be about $2,500 difference for that uh to essentially turn it over to a service that um that has done a good job. I think I know you know you you look at some of those communities in there and noa and others that have used the service. Uh people are very happy with it and um kind of helps to simplify some of that work. that is right now falling [snorts] on staff that might not be um trained necessarily to do it, but have been have been trying to pitch in to get something done over the over the last few years. But at any rate, I wanted to just bring this to council. Um get your feedback on it in a work session. uh if it's something that you would like to proceed with, uh we can start it up in January here and um and kind of get them online, get them designing something um such as the front of the um my cursor here again. Um such as the, you know, there's different views that you can go with. You know, different cities have different ways of presenting whether they have a certain color they want to focus on or a certain theme. uh they can provide stock photography uh if we would like that. Uh if we have our own photography, you see a NOA here has a picture of their bridge. Um if we have our own photography, we can we can utilize that as well. And uh and I think it it just kind of brings it up a to a different level, a new level of professionalism. There's a cost to it though, and so that's why I want to bring it forward and see if that's something you guys want to consider moving forward with. Personally, I think um it's a great idea. I think the professionalism and the uh the way the city will come off to the residents will be much better. I think if they can be more timely than who we're using right now. And the the last newsletter I was so disappointed because we had these little tiny pictures of the senior um events and nobody could really tell who was who or what they were doing in those pictures and that's why take the time to get pictures done and submitted if nobody can tell. And people pictures tell stories and we want more people to participate in community events and if we don't have those stories, it's not going to resonate with our residents. So that's my opinion. I'm I'd be willing to pay, you know, an extra $10,000 for to get the word out to the people on a regular basis in a professional manner. And I'm a cheap person too, so I don't like to spend money. [laughter] >> Would these new newsletters be in color then versus black and white that we have been doing? >> Yeah. So, um I would need to double check um on how much of it would be color. It may just be the front page. Maybe a little bit color inside there. Um, generally speaking, a lot of the presses today that are used will print anything you want. You know, if you want black and white, it's a fourcolor process that prints a black and white. Um, so you might as well take advantage of color essentially at that point. And it and it depends on how you submit the print file, the print ready file. If it's color, you're getting color coming out, you know. So, I think um kind of Council Member Urkl's point, we um we're starting to get a lot of calls about development and property and things of this nature. I think this is a there's multiple first impressions obviously. Um but uh this is certainly one of them, you know, that uh that people can utilize to kind of get that first impression of the city and and um I think it's a positive positive thing if you'd like to proceed with it. Well, uh, I could add my two cents here. I [clears throat] think communicating with our residents, a lot of our residents are used to getting a newsletter and one that's uh, indepth what's happening and we've gotten away from that a little bit. I think it's very important that that we stay on top of not only what's going on here, but inform everybody. Not everybody goes online. Not everybody watches these meetings happy for the people who do, but reality is a lot of people look forward to it and when they don't get it, we hear >> they feel like, you know, we're ignoring them or anything like that. So, I'm for this. I'm curious. I've seen Champlain and Champlain has had advertising in it. Now, do they contact advertisers too in our city or, you know, to help offset this? >> I was thinking that, too. That's a good question. I don't have an answer to that yet. [clears throat] Uh we would certainly supply them with businesses that want to, you know, have them design something for an ad for them. Uh they may have other, you know, reach in terms of people that contact Prime to say, "Hey, what do you have in an area this this, you know, area for advertising?" >> Because I know Carrie's been working on a lot of ads for businesses and she's been basically doing them herself, >> right? >> Very time organization. I mean, I think that would really be a positive for us. Also, >> it's very timeconuming when someone submits Adobe Illustrator file and you don't have that program to operate with and you're trying to convert it and it comes out grainy. Um, and I'll be honest with you, um, we're getting uh a significantly more public data requests coming in that Carrie is involved with, and that's a time-sensitive matter that has to be dealt with. So these type of things while they're on the burner, they're not on the front burner, right, in terms of importance. And so I can I understand some of the frustration um and we're, you know, staff is somewhat caught, you know, trying to respond to everything that we can as soon as possible. And um and it would be nice to have a service that can handle it, you know, produce something professionally um and that has experience in doing it. They're not they're not fly by night. They've they've been around for for a while. >> I know. I agree with Tim and Suzanne because the last newsletter that came out, it's like I looked at it and I'm like, "Sorry, but this isn't what we've had before in the past. Something like this is really important to residents, especially that don't go on the computer, and they look forward to this, and it gives them information about what's going on in our city. So, I'm for this as well. Yeah. And it would be nice if we could get, you know, eventually advertisers to help offset the cost because I know a lot of people would be willing just to put spend a hundred bucks to put a business card in there. And I I don't know if that would go through the city or the prime, but however, but it's something we can research later. >> Y definitely >> because I think it's import that we at least four times a year >> to keep the residents informed on what's happening so they're not guessing or second hearing stuff that's not really going on. I think it's important. Any other comments? Well, if you could uh find out a couple of those answers about color and advertisers and uh bring it back next month. Okay. All right. Agreement on it. >> Sounds good. Let's move to item three. garbage haul or discussion. >> Mr. Mayor and Council, at the last um council meeting, I believe there was a person that came forward and indicated that they were interested in in um seeing if the city would look into kind of the program that um that Ham Lake put into into effect for garbage hauling. So, I reached out to uh the city of Ham Lake. They were kind enough to send me their uh contract that they used um uh for what they call Ham Lake Haulers uh which is a two different haulers that came together to provide uh a solution to that city. Um and and again part part of this discussion kind of revolves around uh you've got uh I don't know pick a number six different companies out there um all driving on the same road you know depending on the number of uh neighbor you know the size of the neighborhood you could have all six of these different providers driving down the road uh to get the garbage and then to pick up recycling and um and there's concern about uh wear and tear to the road and and just kind of the um maybe the invasion of garbage trucks uh that happen uh throughout the week. But um this is a um if you've got an opportunity to read this contract, this is what they've put into place. Um an interesting part on this is the city does have uh quite a bit of garbage that we pay for uh in our bills list. And in this portion, if I can find it real quick, um it says 2.6 here. Contractor shall let no additional cost of city provide weekly pickup of refues at seven locations. And they did spell them out. Um you know, we could we could certainly have a similar type of scenario uh conditioned on a um on a contract such as this if you chose to go that route. Um and um I think it you know reading through this I think it covers just about um everything that would be of concern. But um but the the process that we would need to undergo with this is to essentially send out an RFP and uh have haulers try and bid on the work. And uh the goal of course is to keep some of the cost down. I think um I think in Ham Lake, and correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but I think it's around $17 or something for their garbage uh monthly basis. Um and that can vary widely. Um and I think I think I pay 25 or something in in Ramsey. Um but um >> pay 80 >> not that 25 is bad but >> you know >> um but any rate it could be an opportunity for depending on who responds back to an RFP could be uh could be some cost savings for residents. Um I think the flip side of that discussion is is that uh freedom to you know to select a provider of your choosing you know uh and some people some people want to have that flexibility um and uh from what I understand it uh it's not really been a huge push back in Ham Lake but I think overall people in Ham Lake are very happy with with the service that they're getting and uh and this can be, you know, re-evaluated every every term that comes up, whether it's a year or however long you want to make the term of the contract. But, um, so anyways, this is before you in terms of discussion. Um, [clears throat] again, something we can we can get out first part of the year in terms of an RFP. Um, and um, covers just about everything. Yeah, I know their pricing goes on what gallon container you have. They have three different sizes listed in their site here. And then 25, they have a 30 to 38, that's 1335 a month. A 60 to 76 gallon is 81 1918 a month. And then the bigger one, 77 to 90 gallons, 21.92. So, I mean, I think people would be satisfied if we did it as long as they're paying less than what they are now. >> Uh, do you know what two companies came together for Ham Lake to do it? >> Uh, it was Ace and um >> Waste Management. >> Waste Management, which may be the owner of Waste. I'm not sure of Ace. I think they um somebody purchased somebody along the way there but um but you know part of the argument is start and stop of vehicles and wear and tear on roads >> and that's quite honestly that's a function of weight. So if you have one vehicle that's overloaded starting and stopping you've got a lot of damage potentially being done. If you have six vehicles that are partially full starting and stopping you may have less damage. So that argument while it's commonly used, I don't know that it always applies. But um but I I do understand that, you know, if you've got u you know a neighborhood and there's six haulers in that neighborhood, you got trucks all day long, you know, coming through there. And uh if you look at it from a public safety standpoint, I think you know, kids playing streets and shouldn't be, but I think generally you find them there. You want to try and limit some of that traffic. That's not a bad idea. Yeah, I know. In my neighborhood, five days a week, I got garbage trucks coming through my neighborhood. >> Yep. >> So, I I can see the advantages of some of this. And I I could uh envision uh having two suppliers similar to Ham Lake. That way, that there'd still be some freedom of choice. And I would like to keep one of those local no matter what company if that's a possibility. I'd like to help support local businesses. So I know ACE is nationwide and >> yeah just to clarify these two haulers came together as a partnership to provide the service. So you get you don't have a choice of one or the other, but you >> um you know they decided to to work together as opposed to compete against each other. Um but this really could be a win-win, not only for [clears throat] our residents, for pricing, but for long-term maintenance on our roads. I think that was mentioned. We have new roads coming in and have gone in. These trucks continue to do some damage. Um, even though I live on a dirt road with culde-sac, garbage week is pretty rough, especially if it rains the night before and I ride bike and it's tough to ride once in a while when you have to go over all these different gullies and, you know, looks like burnout basically in there. But this was a smart move that Ham Lake made. It really was, you know, for long-term savings on their maintenance and for the residents. So, if we can throw something like this together, I'm all for it. Thank you for that suggestion at the last meeting. It's it's a big one. >> I think it's a good idea, too. But we should probably set either a yearly or every two years and set it out for an RSP just to keep the costs so they can compete against each other. >> I could see every two years. Are we going to have any problems with push back from the carriers because we allow so many in right now? >> You know, I would uh Mr. Mayor and Council to answer that question, I would say earlier on you would have uh I think this is becoming a common um kind of area that cities are looking into now, more common than it was before. Um >> I think St. Francis has two haulers. >> Yeah, I I think that that a lot of the haulers actually would do mail campaigns, you know, uh it became a political hot potato uh for a few years there, but I think now they've kind of they've kind of figured out that well, if we can get our foot in the door in certain areas and we don't have to drive clear across, you know, the state to service a couple accounts that we're probably saving some money in the wrong long run. I'm not sure. I'm not I'm not a garbage hauler, but it would make sense to me that, you know, if you can focus your your market that you you may not um have as much cost. These trucks, I don't think are inexpensive. >> Well, I'm going to put my two cents in because I am not for this. I don't think it's the government's job to get into garbage um hauling. I I think it's just adding one more thing that the city's going to have to monitor and the city is already complaining that they have too much going on, too many things. Um, and I don't think it's our job to be picking winners and choosers of businesses. I think I'm all for the free market and letting people decide. We have a lot of residents who through just monitoring social media I have heard they hate this company, they hate that company, they don't like the owner of this company, they don't and lo and behold, the city will pick a company that somebody hates and all those people who hate that company are going to be up in arms. So you can see I can see the future on that whole issue. So that's my two cents. Yeah, I can absolutely understand it because in years past there have been brief discussions about this and there are very strong views on one side and the other >> and people have come before the public forum complaining it's when this topic [snorts] came up and I guarantee you put it on the agenda we will have people >> well what does it cost RFP and put it together just to look, not to commit to it, but just to >> see what could be done. >> Yeah, I think we'll do a request for quote. It's a little less um legalistic at that point. Um RFPs, you have to have good reason why you don't select one of the um one of the people that submits. >> Okay. >> Uh RFQS kind of give you just those numbers that you're looking for. We can certainly do that. Um we can model it after this certainly if that seems to work for them. I don't know that we'd want to reinvent the wheel. Uh but um but you're you're absolutely right. I mean this can become a politically charged topic. There's no question about it. Um I don't know that it is a politically charged topic in Ham Lake. Um I think they would have shared that with us like wow we it took a beating trying to get this across the finish line. Uh, I didn't hear that. Um, but that's not to say that there aren't more active voices on social media in East Bethl. Um, but saving money is a positive thing, too. I mean, people are all for that. Um, so it's six and one half dozen. >> Well, this is why we have the public forum. >> So, if an idea comes up and if we can do it, we do it together. you know, we want to hear the bad along with the good. Last thing we're going to do is is try and cause problems. So, by them uh by the public communicating through the public forum about things that they don't like about certain companies helps us make a decision, too. And that's what it's all about. And the reality of it is if you decided to go this down this road and it's not working, you can always go back to the other, you know, the other way. It's um I'm sure other people would love to to bid on, you know, accounts that they had or whatever. I'm sure they they'll have the information to market them certainly. But um and I and I think that that's that's probably in the front of these people's minds. You know, when if they get awarded a contract like this, they know they better perform or it's going to be, you know, people will be complaining like you say and it's not going to look good for the for renewal of contract. But um yeah, so just to restate uh we're not committed to this. We are just looking at it. So [clears throat] please no torches at the next meeting. We're just looking. Would this require an ordinance if we ever did pursue it? I don't know that we have ordinances on this particular >> city code. >> Yeah. Um this would just be a contract >> that the city would have. >> Um I can check in the ordinance though. >> All right. Anything else? Hey, at this time we'll close the uh work meeting.