e we'll go through that process over the next few months so we thank him for the time that we have with that I'll move on to item number three approval of the meeting minutes from the January 2023 or January 23 of 2024 meeting uh with those who are new who have not taken the oath of office yet as you were not um not on that we'll have you abstain from the vote on these minutes I've got nothing you've got nothing is that a first I I should comment that my name was spelled wrong a lot so I just wanted to make it right so if anybody email me or anything it's senn instead of s o n and it's in there but I'm sure staff will get it corrected so we will make sure that is noted for the you got that ear for the company that does the translation thank you thank you so for those listening and it's s n n thank you all right so with that uh was there a motion for approval with the amendment of The senen so move and a second we have a motion and a second all in favor say I I I all right those are our minutes approved moving on item number four we have oath of office for recently appointed commissioner Cory Jorgenson and Brian Downey did I say that correct that's correct thank you Brian uh Aon yes um you guys both have a copy of this on your if you want to stand and raise your right hand site the O of office I will assist you I will assist you I state your name I do solemnly swear or affirm that I will support the Constitution of the United States or affirm I will support theti of the United States and the state of Minnesota St of Minnesota and Faithfully discharge the duties as a member of the city of East bethl Planning Commission and Faithfully discharge the duties as a member of theast plan commission Commission in the county of inoka in the county and the state of Minnesota and the state of Minnesota to the best of my ability so help me God to the best of my ability so help me God so official welcome yes welcome both of you thank [Applause] you and again I know I mentioned this earlier but in all seriousness I don't be afraid to ask questions or howtos on stuff again we've all been here and we're all here to help each other okay um got something to say we we do want to hear so uh with that we will move on to item five the Planning Commission appointment of a chair and vice chairpersons uh typically at uh let's see here where we at uh city code section 273 requires appointment of chairperson to serve for one year and will be the same for the vice chair Aon I'll let you yeah pick it up from there and then we'll have set appointments very good um the chairperson shall be chosen from the committee and or commission member annually to serve for a one-year term however provided however that the chairperson shall be elected who has not been who has not completed uh at least a one-year term as a member of the commission or committee also a vice chairperson is to be appointed to act as the chairperson in the event that a particular individual is absent from a meeting the commission is requested to appoint tonight A chairperson and vice chair to serve for a one year term ending January 31st uh 2025 great at this time I'd like to make a motion to appoint Gabriel as Vice chair as uh in a previous conversation although he's not here tonight he indicated he had an interest in that spot I'll second we have a motion and a second any discussion hearing none all those in favor say I I any opposed so moved Gabe thank you he'll be back hopefully at the next meeting so and then moving on to the chairperson unless anyone else has any interest I would like to nominate Sharon as our chairperson who's done an awesome job as our as our vice chair for the last few years and ready to succeed so a second thank you there's a motion in a second any discussion hearing none all those in favor say I I any opposed hearing none the Comm is yours thank you congratulations thank you I'm going to shift down here there goes the neighborhood and at the next meeting I'll move down to the end and her Gable over here we'll get we'll get it all figured out absolutely okay well thank you and um I too I'm going to ask you folks help especially with um helping me structure the meeting correctly but uh what we will go on to is the public hearing um and Erin's going to talk about that I have a staff report here for you um uh onor about December 20th of 2023 um Andrew benck dropped off an application for a kennel uh interm use permit here at City Hall City staff researched the information and provided provided in the application through city code and the process for getting a commercial kennel operation approval since Mr benck intended on kenneling other individuals dogs beside his own he met the definition of in city code of a commercial kennel I have provided you uh the definitions of private and Commercial kennel in the packet a commercial kennel means any place where person accepts dogs from the general public and keeps such dogs for the purposes of boarding in a private kennel means any place where more than two dogs over four months of age are kept in harbored providing that such animals are owned by the owner or leasy of the premises on which they are being kept or harbored Article 2 dogs division 2 section 10-54 under kenel license subdivision e no private kennel licenses shall be issued on Parcels of 2 and A2 Acres or less no commercial kennel licenses shall be issued in zoning districts other than commercial or industrial zones the city shall not approve variances to allow for private kennel licenses on Parcels less than 2 and a half acres and shall not approve variances or other zoning devices to allow commercial kennel licenses in zones other than commercial and Industrial districts Mr Ben's property is 4.35 acres and is located in the rural residential zoning District of the city he was advised that due to the location of his property he could not be issued an iup for a commercial kennel Mr benck agreed to withdraw his application and asked for a map of commercial and Industrial zones of the city to which he was provided honorable January 18th of 2024 the city started receiving phone calls about social media advertising by Mr benck for dog bathing dog care and boarding under the business named courts Camp dog care with with an accompanying uh website although the website used the location of East bethle it did not provide a specific address for the facility City staff confirmed with the Minnesota Secretary of State business filings that the business registered office was in fact Mr Ben's residence on January 8th of 2024 contact was made with Mr benck on January 19th of 2024 advising him that the commercial kennel was not permitted in a residential Zone Mr benck responded asking what steps he could take in an attempt to get an approval he was advised that administratively staff cannot authorize a commercial kennel however the city council through its process could hear the request and make an alternate determination on January 24th of 2024 Mr benick delivered another application in the associated fees for an iup commercial kennel to be located at 625 221st Avenue Northeast if approved in terms of a private kennel uh in term use permit Mr property would permit four dogs belonging to him and not customers or someone of the general public staff is res recommending the Planning Commission hold a public hearing discuss the iup request and consider a recommendation of denial to the city council for a commercial kennel in a residential district thank you and um now we're going to have the the public hearing part where people can come up and talk to the issue if you do please make sure that your name was on this paper and if it wasn't come up and put it on after you're done speaking so would anyone like to come up and address the issue you might want to just call them out strictly in order on the sheet to give them an opportunity okay and if you just step up to the podium please and kind of speak into the microphone thank first of all congratulations to to you three thank you and uh good luck with your uh careers from here forward uh my name is Ronald snowy uh I live at 22277 Washington Street Northeast uh my wife Darcy's here tonight with me um we're dog owners We Love Dogs we've loved them for ever since I was a kid um I have nothing against anybody that owns their dogs the only thing I ask is people that have dogs watch their dogs make sure they don't bark and interrupt other people's lives uh since the eight years we've lived in East bethl that in our neighborhood has become a problem uh I live probably 300 yards from Andrew as the crow flies and uh quite frankly there's several dogs in our neighborhood now that are nuisance dogs that are barking uh with winter here I can't really call the sheriff or the city and say hey they're barking because we're not outside in the winter come spring I we like to be out in our yard we're out in our yard all the time we have people over we're on the deck and some people leave their dogs out and they bark for two three hours and the city allows them to have these dogs but then it seems like the city right there it stops um there was a neighbor next to Andrew who had a kennel license and I'd called the police on them before and they were fined and those people got a kennel license I will will say since they did get a kennel license I have not heard the Barking back there and I appreciate that from them as a neighbor uh for commercial dogs I I'm against it I'm totally against it I uh I feel bad for him that he would like to do this in his property and I understand that like I said this um this barking and uh disturbing uh our house and the people that uh want peace and quiet um I think my house was my castle I worked hard for a long time to have that castle and I don't want to be interrupted by people who have too many dogs or can't watch them and um we'll leave it at that I thank you for your time and uh I appreciate it great thank you very much you're welcome Erin I have to say I'm a little bit confused in is the the commercial where he wants to have the kennel actually add his residence correct okay yep all right does anyone else want to come up and speak okay please do hi good evening my name is Kristen Smith I live at 711 221st Avenue my property surrounds the one that is um up for discussion tonight um we border on two of the three sides um and he's a great neighbor um he's very responsible um I think that he would be very good C person I think that the city needs to have that they need to have the ability for people to have their dogs sported locally um if there's going to be a problem he would respond to it and I really don't think that he's going to be a problem anyway he has dogs now like I do um his dogs are quiet um he takes care of them I certainly don't have any problem being his next door neighbor um we enjoy him um when you talk about dogs being a nuisance in the summertime or in the winter time I listen to everybody's four-wheelers sometimes in the winter I'd listen to their snowmobiles um it's just part of living in the country they're noises if there's a problem talk to your neighbors say hey you know what this is bothering me um it's just important I'm completely for him that's all I got thank you very much okay thank you anybody else wanting to come up great thank you and there's somebody coming up in the back and then we'll get you next hi my name is Scott Snider I live at 2 22394 7 Street and I'm probably out of earshot of uh what we're talking about tonight but what I wanted to talk to you about and and I guess what's happening here it it U brought it to mind is I'm getting concerned about creep the industrial creep we've got going on in this city it's people opening up homebased businesses and so although I can't address the specific of this meeting but just in my neighborhood alone we have we have an industrial equipment repair business we have an automotive repair business that actually employs people we have a sign business that and this involves flatbed trucks and other things coming and doing I don't know if you know Seventh Street in that the the northern boundaries neighborhood are you familiar with it it's not built for that and all these businesses I brought this up before but it fell on deaf ears because of the new city council coming in we can discuss that at a different at a different time my concern is what is this Planning Commission looking at doing are we going to continue to allow businesses opening up in residential neighborhoods what is your definition of a residential neighborhood and are we going to abandon that once we decide to you know well we got people that want to have a business well you there's a lot of us who have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in our property and it's an established fact that when you have a residential business or residential house and somebody opens a business next door your property values go down according to the National Association of Realtors anywhere between 5 and 7% That's a chunk big chunk of money so my question to you is what what are you going to do what's what's the plan going forward okay Scott thank you um for that and normally what we do in a public hearing is we'll we'll take the questions and then kind of answer them all at the end if there's similar questions uh yours is a little bit off um the topic but um I think we will take the time and and address that at the end of this if that's okay I appreciate it thank you great thank you okay hi there uh my name is Andy benck I'm the property owner of 625 221st Avenue Northeast and uh I am a little bit of background about myself I grew up in this community I've been playing hockey since the age of four at the East Bethal I Arena I spent a lot of my summers in childhood volunteering at the East Bethal recycling center I uh graduated from St Francis High School in 2010 from there I went on and got my bachelor's degree in Zoology where I studied animal behavior and veterinary medicine I've spent the last 15 years managing the UPS Store in Rapids and uh now I'm looking into getting into the work that I really love and imp passionate about um I have my entire 5 acre property fenced in for the Safety and Security of dogs that would be staying with me I have a cold storage out building with kennels inside where I can separate dogs during feeding time other than that dogs are not going to be kennel they'll all be roaming free on my property they sleep they'll be sleeping inside my house at night and and uh that's a huge uh issue of uh noise complaints and noise issues with commercial kennels is when they're all separated in kennels for hours and hours each day and uh that will not be the case in in my facility um is it appropriate for us to ask questions you sure can absolutely I'd like to know what cut what kind of breeds of dogs are you going to have there then uh I personally have three mixed breeds mhm I have an Australian Shephard border collie mix I have a black lab golden retriever mix and then I have a boxer black lab mix um other than that uh I will take any breed really um I have studied animal behavior and it's not really the breed of the dog that determines how they're going to act you can just uh study any dog's uh body language and determine if there's going to be an aggressive dog or a bad interaction and all of those are preventable if you know the science to look for and watch and if you spend the time with the animals and not just have them locked away in a kennel all day um I plan on spending all of the hours uh with them outside on the property or inside they'll never be left unattended and uh I watch a lot of friends and family dogs right now and I have hundreds of videos of all my dogs enjoying their time running free on 5 acres of land and in most of my videos there's a lot of dogs in the distance barking because they're just left outside while their owners are sitting inside and that's what they think is good exercise for their dogs is just being outdoors but you need to physically be out there with them entertaining them and uh relieving them so do you um gentlemen have some questions on either side I up some more but go ahead um if you were ill or on vacation well I guess you wouldn't have them if you were on vacation but if you were ill who would do that job of being outside with them uh well if I was ill I would still be able to take care of the dogs most dogs can sense if somebody is sick and they just back off and have a more calm demeanor around a sick individual uh so I have been sick personally with my three dogs and I don't need to get somebody else to watch them while I'm sick I uh can still take care of their uh feeding and exercise time outside as long as I'm with them so if I if I'm looking at the history right in here uh originally you had applied uh retracted the application knowing that it wasn't wasn't going to be approved well it went a a little different than that I uh came to the city in the summer of 2023 where I spoke to a female I don't know her name uh she told me she had never been through a kennel license process so then she got me in contact with Aaron Berg who also told me he has never been through the process of a kennel license and uh told me that I needed to in order to get my 2024 license I'd have to submit my kennel license by December 24th of 2023 so I went and started building my company and advertising and submitted my kennel license in the week of December 20th and then that's where Aaron found the information where where I live I cannot have a commercial kennel license and he apologized told me he should have told me that months in advance when I told the city of East bethl what I was planning on doing but they weren't informed on what what was required to have a commercial kennel license okay so Aon how how many dogs would you house at maximum counting here three uh that would be in the terms of our iup we have not gotten that far yet okay so I can't determine how many dogs I can have at my property I think that's going to be up to your guys's uh iup conditions okay but I would follow those strictly I wouldn't uh I wouldn't go against I mean there's a lot of people who are watching dogs inside of their house and not applying for commercial kind of license I want to I want to do everything right and appropriate and I would follow rules that are uh how many would you like to have uh ideally I would like to have between six and 10 okay all all I had that was a good question yeah um with the uh in the pardon me in the event of an approval um the presence of more dogs uh I can only see that adding to more um barking um is it are there um processes or plans in place to contain or minimize the amount of um barking that may come with uh such an approval yeah the biggest thing that I have uh experienced is not kenneling dogs and having them separated that's when dogs are continuously barking and freaking out because they want to exercise they want to be out with their pack they want to be outside so that's going to be the biggest thing uh at my facility is they're going to be kenneled during feeding time so there's no fights and other than that there's going to be zero kenneling they will not be separated I'm going to be outside uh interacting with them dogs are very simple they need love they need attention and they need exercise and if you meet all of those needs barking is not an issue yeah I have a I had two golden retrievers and it seemed like the happier they were the louder they got so oh well I have three of the happiest dogs that I've ever met and uh I don't think you'll ever hear their voice so okay but I would love for your dogs to come check out my property good I'll wait till we have our discussion okay so Andy um what do you see could go wrong with this whole thing uh I personally have not experienced any uh anything that could go wrong uh when I've watched dogs um I don't call myself an animal expert but I'm kind of uh I'm kind of an animal expert so seems like you've certainly studied it well so I don't think anybody argued the credentials yeah I don't have a lot of issues that uh happen when I uh Watch Dogs how many animals do you think or how many dogs have you had including your three and you mentioned while watching friends and Family's dogs as well at most what do you think you've had at any one time currently uh well not at my property but uh under my surveillance I've watched 18 dogs just myself in one location one location sleepovers and all not just daily daycare and how much at your location uh my location the most I've had is uh well it's tough I have I've had a lot of friends and family like come over and hang out at my facility they bring their dogs so it's not just me watching dogs but I think probably 13 is the most that have been around I have a skating rink in my backyard so friends come over and it's all fenced in so it's a very safe environment for them to bring their dogs so I allow people to bring their dogs over um so yeah about probably about 13 has been have you ever had a dog um jump over the fence or get out of gug or anything no my uh my perimeter fence is just under six feet uh and within my fencing uh the whole perimeter fencing I have different sections of yards that's fenced in um so if a dog were to get over a fence they're going to have to get through at least two maybe three other fences to fully Escape but uh I've I've have yet to have a friend or family's dog who wants to leave my property once they arrive okay dogs are very simple okay do you have anything else that you'd like to say uh I think that's really it I mean I would invite all of you to come over and my property um and see everything that I've got there and uh if you do have dogs and this goes well I would love to uh give them a nice vacation if you ever had to spend time away from them thank you yeah very much thank you thanks okay does anyone else want to come up okay hi I'm Bob Knight is this thing on yes y um we won't hear you now there Andy lives there crot rockets and hogs live there life has annoyances and people got to live and uh you know living in the middle of all that there there's the occasional dog barking and it's even been mine dogs bark they eat they poop and people need the things that they have to enjoy their lives and I think that a small business that helps people enjoy their lives and maybe spend a week in Florida when it's a typical February um I think it's a good thing and he's a great guy I've known him from The UPS Store and I've known him now as a neighbor and uh he's responsible to a fault and I think that's what you need if your animals are noisy or if you anything you're doing is an annoyance or a disturbance to your uh surrounding people you respond and you um you address it and I think he's the kind of guy that would do that and I would welcome uh his business backing right up to my home thank you very much [Applause] Bob um Dave and or Vicky did either one of you want to come up okay sounds good okay it's all good okay did you want to come up and speak ma'am yeah congratulations Tammy gimple 22359 baton streight I'm here to um support Andy I don't know him but I saw that it was coming up and I I look through I actually had come to planning it was several years ago for to change the ordinance for the kennel commercial kennel part it's all just wording um I looked at Ham Lake Oak Grove St Francis some of our surrounding cities to find out what they did because people are doing it right now they're look up Rovers there are people right on East buth that are boarding they're just not doing it right like Andy's trying to do um the the national average is 1.46 dogs per household that's a lot of dogs in the city of East bethl and you know everyone here wants a grocery store and this and that people want to board their dogs the fact that he has he can advertise and he was getting people that want to board says people want to board their dogs um to have a nice place like his that that you can bring your dog to and it be safe you guys put the iup together put the stipulations in there so that you so that you're happy with it the city's happy with it the three complaints you get on dogs I've I do animal control are dog dogs barking dogs running loose and dog bites and I've been here over 20 years and I have a kennel and you don't hear the dogs barking at my place the people you hear Dougs barking are the people that own one or two dogs and it's random throughout the city and everyone has everyone has it in every neighborhood and it's not the kennels it's not the people that come in and do the kennel licensing it's just people that have dogs so do open an iup Forum that that you guys are happy with that the city can be happy with and stipulations like you do for everything else and that can be revoked if something goes wrong he appears to know what he's doing and he has a lot of support here I think you guys ought to consider it thank you Tammy I really appreciate it thank [Applause] you go ahead please thank you for letting me come up my name was not on the paper I'm Pam kagi 485 224th Lane Northeast East betham Minnesota could you spell your last name please k o l o d z as in zebra i e j as in Jack thank you okay um I am absolutely sure that you're are you are a very responsible person and I am not questioning in the least that you wouldn't be a qualified chamel and you would absolutely take care of your dogs to the best of your abilities I've used the Armstrong kennel I believe in kennels I like to have my dog someplace safe I have no objections to that at all my objection is the way this is this is coming down I live in that neighborhood I am point 7 miles from him right according to the Google Maps I am in a residential area we don't have a lot of armf frame around what we're going to be allowing and what we're not this feels and I'm sorry it feels like it's coming in the back door I've done it now I want my license that's what I'm concerned about and that's all I have to say thank you thank you very much okay anyone else go ahead hi my name is Joe MCH I live at 22218 Quincy Street I'm just a little bit nor property um I grew up in a small family business so I respect what Andrew's trying to do here um but I also Al I I moved to East bethl um four months ago and moved to where I moved in East bethl for a little bit of space a little bit of quiet peace and quiet after the the the loss of my wife um and suddenly something that's zoned residential there's this potential for for a commercial business being in it and I as the previous speaker said I this whole process seems to be kind of going backwards right now um residential area is important people Working Families they need their sleep that's where they live um I I was out I I walk a lot in the neighborhood I walk a couple three miles a night and just out of the blue I just for for just out of example there was just a dog the other night that was barking the entire hour I was walking I could hear it the entire walk and that's just one just one dog I know as a former dog owner we would nip that in the butt and I don't understand why people don't do that but I I I don't know um what would happen if this got out of control I know police can only do so much um so I just have some concerns um I just ask that you respectfully consider them thank you thank you very much anyone else okay go ahead oh there's two people so I will get you next my name is Jillian I'm te technically I am not a resident of East Beth East bethl but I've grown up in this community um my parents still live in Lake George I wanted to come and support Andy um I'm not able to have children so my dog is my child I can bring Andy has watched my dog for me when I've not been able to care for him or when I've been on vacation um and it's a place that I know that my dog is safe if you've ever looked at some of these other commercial kennels they put your dog in a 4x6 box and let them outside in a very small fence area with not even real grass and to just have something that Andy's trying to do and create such a special place is very important to me because it's about my family member which is my dog and I don't think any of you would want your children to go to a cement box for a daycare or for boarding while you guys are off on vacation or working all day um so I just it's it's something that's just not available anywhere else and I I know he's responsible he sends me videos of my animal when he has watched them and there are no dogs sparking I understand the concern being a residential area and the noise um but I mean 221st is a very busy street there's also um a railroad that's not very far away either like are we going to go after the railroads for the noise they make it just seems silly to talk about dogs that are barking and we don't even know that these dogs barking are coming from his at all so that's all I have to say thank you I think we have one more person in the back that would like to speak hi I'm not on the list my name is Pastor Caroline Holmes we are the church right there on the corner of Quincy and 221st and so I've been in the neighborhood walk the neighborhood met several people in the area almost everybody has dogs in that area um we also personally our family we board our dog in East bethl at neer's pet sitting I hope I'm not calling out my friend but she lives in what appears to me a residential area and I love boarding my dog there it sounds like a property like yours you know I could bring my dog there it's in a beautiful fencon area it's a very homelike environment my dog sleeps in her house and so and I love it but it's in what looks like to me a residential area but it's just very well-maintained and I think we get the idea of a commercial business and I'm also a business owner too and we have this image of people coming and going and traffic and whatever comes in our heads but I don't it doesn't sound like that's the kind of environment that you're creating and that's not the kind of environment that I bring my dog to and um also I live in Andover and I have I have a commercial um you know dog people they have dogs um near me and they're the most responsible dog owners in our entire neighborhood um the dogs anytime the dogs are barking in our neighborhood I don't know what the guy does he does some kind of magic whistle and they are done immediately and so much more responsible than your typical dog owner that lets their dogs just run out of control and bark and bark and bark so I just love the idea of having um something like this in our neighborhoods I don't know how many are it'd be interesting to find out what the Dynamics are in East Beth in particular you know as far as um kennels commercial kennels in residential areas um you know what that ratio is but um I personally love it and that's where I bring my dog okay thank [Applause] you is there anyone else okay if not I just want to thank everybody for speaking I know there's different opinions and everybody was very respectful I'm so glad the kids came actually today and they can kind of be part of um democracy right um Planning Commission is kind of special it's where you all get a chance really to get up on the microphone even if you're nervous like I am a lot of the time um you're this is where your voice will be heard and one of our city council members um Jim Smith is back there he will will be talking about this at the next city council meeting so you've got a chance to get his ear tonight too so it's really important that you did that okay so with that I think we'll close the public hearing and we will open the discussion is there any one who wants to make a motion to open the discussion I'll make a motion to open for discussion on the item second okay so there's a motion and second and we will open the discussion on this I okay and and again just Brian and Cory again so a lot of times we'll open with the discussion just otherwise we do it one of two ways you either just have a motion whether approve or denial once there's a second and then uh then it's open for discussion and then we'll call for the vote after that but a lot of times we there's so much discussion on a decisive issue we try to have that discussion before a motion's made so we're not re amending motions over and over and over does that make sense y so just give you a point of clarification on that yeah I really appreciate you saying that and I personally kind of like to have the discussion and then at the end right we kind of hear what's going on have a consensus and then we make a motion whether to um recommend it um or to not recommend yeah and again and because when you make a motion and it's seconded and then there's a discussion if if it ends up changing as a result of the discussion or we need to add something or take something away from the motion then we have to do an amendment that takes a second and a vote on that and then back to the original so just that clarification that's why we do this try to have the discussion at the front end and Aon you're all okay with that I'll just take notes you all do what you do okay great okay okay that being said with the discussion open uh and again I I very much appreciate everybody's everybody's words I to I'm a dog owner sounds like a great place that potentially be to board you know what you're doing zero issues with that uh for anybody who seen me up here previously on a lot of this stuff one of the biggest things I do talk about though is is precedent we have to be extremely careful when it comes to precedent about what we approve what we don't approve when it does or doesn't fit now again not saying that I wouldn't be in support of it if it was again if it if it was a fit but I also can't support items when like I'm looking at uh at part of the the dog division under the kennel license piece of it and although you're in the greater part of the 2 and A2 Acres stipulation it's the latter half that goes to the end shall not approve variances or other zoning devices to allow the commercial kind of licenses in zones other than the commercial and Industrial districts so that being said I would have an extremely hard time issuing an i an iup with or without stipulations because it circumvents what's already written not saying that ordinances can't be changed but this wouldn't be that venue for that so I can't support it at this time I agree with Tammy that again maybe it is a matter of wording and if that's what needs to happen I would recommend anyone you know again Champion to city council that there maybe needs to be a change in that if that was the case and that was their wishes then an ordinance change would come back to us to discuss the ordinance change and go through through that event but like I said at this time the way I see it reading I just I can't approve based on how the language is because again it creates too much precedent to say yep we're going to allow in this case because we have somebody who has exactly this much background in it as exactly this much space is responsible I don't doubt that you wouldn't be by any means however we do have to be extremely careful whether it's dogs accessory structures any other issues that come before us we have to be mindful of the city as a whole if that makes sense so open discussion can I speak no not not at this not at this time uh but I'm just I'm just trying to give a little bit of guidance where my thought process goes because I don't want people to be under the pression I'm just a Nayer to things but I've been preaching it for years we need to be extremely careful about what we continue to approve because then someone comes back and goes oh you you let this guy have one okay now I want to have one and although you may have the best business practices not everybody always does and that's where you have to be really careful then you get gets very dicey real fast about who's allowed what who's not and the city's not trying to be the the police monitor of all of these businesses inside residential areas because we're already riant on our residents to report incidences when they happen and you know or file a complaint when there's an issue so and that's hard enough to police even just that in itself so part of the many reasons why it's probably worded the way it is at the moment and why they direct people to the commercial areas so that way it can be in those specific things I do agree though dealing with you know animals should be more in a nature setting than in a true commercial lot sense however East Beal is also very fortunate that we do have I think we have commercial Lots U available for things like this that it may be better fit in and we make use of of that of our land in that area especially when we have enough resident residences that have talked about making sure we preserve our look and feel even with the areas that we've deemed with some of the commercial or industrial areas so that's my take on it for the discussion uh like I said I would love to approve it but I just based on the language that's here I just can't see it without creating a precedent that that makes bigger issues down the road but there might be different opinions there absolutely may may very well be that's just mine and if any of you gentlemen want to say anything yeah I'll speak on the the topic I I really like your idea a lot I think that you're definitely focused and got a good plan I'm not comfortable with the breaking the language and that's Z appr maybe you guys aren famar yeah Andy if you don't mind we'll we'll kind of discuss it and actually genely you'll see that there's different opinions kind of um done together and then if we need you to come back up we will and then and we'll sure give you a chance to talk okay thank you okay so I I just I struggle with that a lot about the changing it you know and it it is a residential area and I realize the neighbors you have probably fully support you the neighbor right next door I actually drove by when I read it was about it because I just wanted to get my bearings on the site and people move people change you know that I so I struggle with that you know I I I hope you don't um quit your dream here you know because of this but I I think I'll I'm I'm going to probably unless there's some type of an amendment that changes the way I'm going to probably be stand with Tanner on this speak um I came reading the packet think it's a pretty clear-cut case of you can't do this because the language is very clear about that having seen your presentation of what you're doing looking at the land I mean to me it seems like an ideal situation an ideal um and needed thing um as opposed to an industrial space having dogs just seems a little I mean it's if Done Right which it seems like this is and you have a nice wooded property and your the way you communicated what you would be doing and your neighbors support because they know like it's it's one thing when you have neighbors who are very opposed because they've been around and they know like oh this this guy's trouble or you know situation is a trouble situation it's another thing when you have neighbors highly supporting what you're doing not every one of your neighbors but uh a lot of them so and having the dogs in a setting like this rather than an industrial setting also is seems like a good thing so again as the other two gentlemen have expressed the trouble is again the ordinance um not what you're presenting and I'm not I'm kind of torn on that because a lot of times we Grant in variances but this isn't a variance it's an iupp but we Grant variances because of unique situations and If This Were a variance request and be yeah you know terrific because this is a very well presented and constructed idea but this is an iup which goes against our ordinance so I don't really know what to do about that other than um if we are able to revisit the ordinance and change it which if we and that takes some careful thought to do that because we don't want to create a condition where the whole city is open to a lot of situations that would involve staff enforcement on complaints there's all of the staff interactions on these are complaint driven rather than just seen a violation but nobody complaining um so I'm not really sure where to go with that other than perhaps request if this doesn't go through your patients while we revisit this topic because I'd like to see this work I I just not sure we can do that um but I'm not that so that's the hard part I'm not against the idea at all I like the idea I just not sure how we can do that with the language and the ordinance so i' be really open to a good creative solution to that don't know what that is at this moment okay I agree with the council members it's a it's a great idea it is um seems very viable um but the way that it's written Article 2 Section 1054 it's it specifically states that it's not it can't be done in a residential Zone and as far as you mentioned precedent Tanner yes if we were to cross this line we'd be opening the door for for for other such requests and it's the way that it's written I think that's where maybe we should a request like this should begin its uh its focus on maybe changing the wording as opposed to going against how it is currently written um you know um I was reading this and I I did think that um the city staff confirming with the Minnesota Secretary of State business fings the address was a bit of a of uh trying to get the ball rolling um in spite of the way that the Article 2 is written um and again if um we wish to move forward with this then we should focus on that wording instead of uh trying to deal with it the way it is and being going against how it is written well again a part of our role too for everyone remember we're also not the final say in every in all in all items either we're an advisory commission we work at the beasa city council so when these issues come up they come here first to have the discussion to make their decision easier which is where we give our recommendation there still an opportunity to still go talk to them even correct me if I'm wrong with that Aon if we we make motion to deny to go to City Council they would still have that opportunity or is it dead there remind me you you as the Planning Commission make a recommendation of approval or denial for the council to consider yeah the council can listen to your recommendation make their own recommendation make an approval make a denial yep and they don't always listen to our recommendations either so like I said we're not the final say in that it's just we're the we're the investigative the discussionary portion of this to get get the ball rolling for that and then we make a recommendation based on obviously our opinions on what we read and what what's given with us uh like I said I lean very heavily on on the Precedence Factor just because we at least in my tenure up here seen it more than once where again things have come up where approved some things in the past and there was specific circumstances for one thing maybe not for another again whether it be any number of different items um but what I I definitely don't want to also be is as a committee of just yep it works here you go yep it works here you go or no it doesn't no it doesn't we do try to think these things through but we're still bound within the confines of of of the rules that were set forth so and that's where we try to make our ruling and the best judgment we can one thing that I wanted to point out though I think is when it goes to city council there'll be no public hearing though correct I mean so all of this input kind of stops here with our recommendation to appr um our we just make that recommend recommendation to approve or deny it but there is the public form before the city council that's very true yeah so whatever we decide today um you could go to the city council and sign up for the public forum and and and speak there too I think your time is limited to three minutes there more or less um so Aon do you have any cont chair Johnson if I there were a couple questions that came up during um the public comment portion or public hearing portion here I'd like to address those if we can uh just before you uh make your final consideration so I did pull up the ordinance um and again as City staff I I I do understand that there probably is a need in our community um I'm not the author of The ordinance uh I'm just The Keeper of the ordinance and so if the ordinance says that it can't happen um it's my responsibility to promote that uh and or bring it forward for other people who can make the recommendation or uh denial or make the change um the rural residential zoning District in East bethl does permit private kennels so not commercial kennels but private kennels and then the number of animals is based on your acreage so in this case uh Mr Ben's property is more than three acres but less than five acres so in in sense of a com of a um private kennel he would be allowed four dogs um which be one in addition to his current three correct so even if we were to entertain the idea of an interim use permit for a commercial kennel one dog from someone who he's watching now puts him at his maximum limit based on the zoning code so there are inherent issues that come with all of these situations that need to be investigated and or thought out before a decision is made um alternatively uh the question came up about um um what sort of um home B based businesses are allowed in the residential zoning districts each zoning district has a defined uh number of of um potential uses that would be allowed in those zones um but each of these are also Case by case where um this is not an exhaustive list obviously and as Industries change things happen um but there is a pretty decent prescribed path for getting a homebased business in your residential Zone based on what zone you're in um in terms of um other kennels that may be in residential zones um those would have had to go through this same process so um and if there are kettal that did not go through this process they're operating in violation of the ordinance and no one has made a complaint and we haven't investig at staff don't have the time or resources to investigate complaints based on that and that's how our procedure is set up so there is very likely alternative kennels in East bethl that we just won't address until there's actual complaint yeah and I guess I'd like to just address the one question to the individual who talked about businesses in general continuing to pop up in in residential neighborhoods and areas and without going into the deep dive on it all I would say there is if it's an un not authorized as Aaron talked about with just kennel or sign business or anything else if it's if they're if they're operating out of compliance with it with ordinance in the city please bring it to the city's attention if they if they have been granted iups cups additional licenses and they're possibly in violation of that also please let us know one of the very first things with regard to any business is additional traffic that'd be your first area of a complaint if there was one if business is generating extra traffic in a neighborhood that would be not otherwise of a neighborhood like flat beds and other bigger delivery trucks that's probably something that we should be made aware of so we can address it so you're not having to live with issues like that in general so if you see it say it let us know that way they can they can address it we can they don't otherwise there are also alternative Avenues to determine if a property has been issued an iup a conditional use permit or a special license you can find those things through via NOA County tax records if there's anything on the property so if you don't want to alert City Hall but you want to question whether somebody has a license or not that information is public you can find it yeah okay this has been a really um unusual discussion from from what we usually have things come through here and they're almost always kind of a yes um but if it's if it is it appropriate for me to open up the public hearing again just to have Andy come up absolutely you're the chair you do what you want okay so Andy I'm just going to open the public hearing for you to to have a few words okay sounds good have to State my name and address again please uh my name is Andy benck address 625 221st Avenue Northeast uh are you guys aware of the commercial Zone in E bethl and where it lands you mean the the the commercial and the industrial Zone and yes familiar with some of it I don't have the map memorized by any well like Aon told me once it's about a half a mile on the west side of 65 and on the east side of 65 that is I mean I can see it from my driveway and you guys already do have a commercial kennel in a residential zone approved through the city miles out of the commercial zone so we need to do some research on how that got through the wordage of your ordinance uh because they are uh a commercial kennel licensed through you guys in a residential Zone miles out of the commercial Zone and I am less than a fourth of a mile out of the commercial Zone I can see the I mean you can see the I'm trying to get it to display it's not wanting to function properly stand at the end of my driveway and it's very close to my house are you aware of the life he's describing yes um we do have a um a individual in our city that has a uh commercial kennel and a residential Zone miles out of the commercial yep and that was uh granted by a city council uh at another time in another place and the conditions I I don't know I was not here um that's why we will just have to do some research well that's where I go back to the precedent thing again if there was another one and another incident it's already happened so it can happen again potentially again I'd have to see and again that's the precedent you're speaking of that well that's exactly the reason I bring up precedent in the first place so if there already is again short of going in to find more information to see what that specific instance was again not saying be the same not saying that it isn't but again alls I can go with what is I is what I have before me here this is what I have this is what I'm working within until we would do further research with whatever that license is yeah that'd be all I could say to that and I would hope city council does their due diligence on that when it goes before them based on whatever the recommendation is tonight yeah well I think and and Andy we're not trying to be confrontational at all we're just kind of discussing all these things so yeah for sure I did a lot of my research and I mean there's already an existing one so we need to do some more research on uh how they got approved with the wordage of this well they would have gone through this hearing and then gone through the city council hearing just like the process you're going through right now okay do you have any idea what year that would have been Tammy what year did you get your kenel license 2009 2009 thank you you are talking brought up okay um if if you're going to talk we're going to have to have you the microphone but um I I think we've got the point for sure did you know there's been complaints on that and you just okay okay Tammy okay so we're gonna ask the Applause keep do a minimum so we can keep composure of the meeting thank you okay Andy is there anything else that you want to say very close to the commercial zone so this is the best map at the moment I can find that has the commercial zone so this colored non- yellow zone um purples Reds dark Reds Grays are the commercial Zone yellows and oranges and Browns are residential zone right can you so there's land there put the arrow where his I'm trying to right here I believe is Andy's property yep okay and this red one would be the church pastor spoke on this would be an R1 this would be an R2 and then this would be light industrial into the commercial so he's over um 40 acre section away from the first Industrial Z if not more but again I guess that that leads back to my my point not not about what your approximation is to that area as opposed to the fact that there is area available to do that within the confines of what the code currently reads if you were to start set business on set property within those areas yeah that's not what I'm trying to do I I understand not what you're trying to do at the moment I'm just offering that as as an alternative what I'm trying to do has already been done so I'm I'm looking to go that road I'm not looking to uh move okay all right I would like to stay in the community and I I spent my whole life here I'm I'm 32 years old I've been here my entire life I would like to bring the business to our community I could go anywhere in the world with my uh animal skills and I'm I'm looking to stay here in East ball okay thank you Andy very very much okay um I'm wondering if um we should table this and get information on the existing one as far as how if that is a precedent or a language that use that would justify doing this one yep um I was going to suggest exactly the same thing but I was going to just close the public hearing and then we just need to have a little bit more discussion and um I haven't given my opinion on this all yet either and I will say that when I came in I was kind of like um Glen as I'm thinking this on paper it didn't sound real great um I have been swayed the other way okay um and I was in a very very similar position to you uh that um my Genesis with the Planning Commission was when we came for an iup for our farm we have Minnesota fresh farm on on the highway and thanks well whatever um it it took months for us to get through this system and it was really discouraging so I really can understand how you're feeling right now um but I looking back I figured they had to to kind of go through the process and so it is a process and sometimes it's painful um you have my support I I think it's a good thing um I do want to make sure that you know if there's issues that they have to be addressed so really that's about all I want to say is I I do support it um just because I I think that that Andy really does know how to handle animals much better than I do um well and I'd bet you to say I don't think anyone up here tonight has said that they were uh not in favor of him wanting to have it or that he would wouldn't be qualified for it and again this is also part of why when I started my initial conversation I also stated it with again this may be something we want to look at and again I would recommend to the applicant to push for the ordinance change if this was not to go the way that you wanted to which is why I started it that way that sometimes it's a matter of what we can or can't do based on what we have directly in front of us and to Sharon's Point again sometimes you have to go through the pain of following the process or amending the process so yeah it's all I want to have with that you know I don't know if there's a way to to write the iup so it it can be more acceptable but I am hearing you guys especially that I mean this just really flies in the face of the ordinance which is why I think we need to look at that other one and see how did that go through and see if we can replicate that in this case don't forget that ordinance has changed over time and I don't know the history but it may have been acceptable in 2009 but may have changed in 2010 and become unacceptable as a result of not necessarily the other kennel but maybe complaints that the city received or information that became relevant I I can't speak for that I was not here I did not research that uh the ordinance is the ordinance so how difficult is it to see the history of the ordinance uh so if you look at the bottom right here all of these dates were changes to the ordinance from its original form so there was a change in O2 another change in o02 change in ' 05 a change in 2007 and a change in 2019 now I would need to go back to each one of those Council meetings to determine what part of the ordinance was revised at that date and time in order to determine if that was the case uh if we allowed one but then the ordinance change that doesn't allow it anymore we would have to find that out that would only be the 2019 one if the other one is granted 2009 than all those were before that sure I was just using that as an example of how we would have to backrack to find out okay what the changes were in each each step along the way and still possibly go back to the original meeting when it was approved to find out what the conditions were as to why it was if it was or wasn't or if it was allowable based on the ordinance at that time and now is operating legal non-conforming that's correct which we see a lot of in the city with even just septic systems welcome to growth so Glenn you you're you're requesting or suggesting that we table this that yes that's my recommendation that we see if there is precedent we can use based on the other one or and what the background is so that we could try to sort this out to me having him have to move to a commercial space or commercial it's like defeats the point of what he's doing which is why this is different than a commercial kennel in in terms of its value to the community yeah but again in again in the world of Precedence people can't always get what they want either though right I mean there's there's reasons that we have the ordinances there's reasons that we have it in certain areas and we want to try to be Holden to that with the ordinances that we have right so and just because we want what he wants to do though I mean to be with the animals get it I I I do I'm not not lost in that and again if if it were written differently I'd have zero issue with that I I really would I love to have another you know someone to board my talks with that's closer to home than where we currently do but again it's uh it can't just be what I want either sure we're all bound by what we've got in front of us okay do we need a motion to table it we do why don't you um yeah you should make a motion but then I also need to know what information you want in order to make a decision sure the other option I suppose would be that you make a recommendation to the city council if possible with the additional information provided to them I don't know if you can can do that tonight or not I that's completely up to you whatever Direction you want to go I'm more than happy to do more more research into what your request is so what would facilitate a decision that could make and before we do that I was just going to ask if you guys have anything that you want to say before we start making any motions no I like the idea of tabling it and getting more information I think that's would be huge I would like to review the previous revision also okay I'm just wondering is it possible instead of that it it seems like it would be difficult but would it be possible to have that information to council so that we forwarded whatever we forward as a motion but rather than tabling it you are able to do the research prior to that meeting or is that just enough time well two weeks is plenty of time Glenn I can get a lot of done in 20 minutes but um uh I don't know if you guys have what you're requesting to make a decision tonight on approval or denial if something were to come up in that research you might have might change your opinion cor so I think if you're going to make a decision but you want to see more information then I would hold off but that you guys do what you want to do yeah I think the only thing I would see if it I would rather see the ball continue to keep moving so it's not a delay for the applicant and it doesn't add more to our future agendas however is there a world in a way at least in for me at this point it would be a motion to deny with continued follow or follow or yeah precedented information to be added for City council's review for possible approval is there a way to word that I'm trying to come up with it if you give me like two minutes I might be able to find the minutes from March 11th of 19 if that would be helpful okay in that case if you want to give me a minute here well I'll see what I can find so are you coming in with a motion now well I was going to table it to the end of the agenda to give him the time and move on to the next thing and circle back if we wanted to do that otherwise it would have been a motion to deny I but I'd have I got I'm trying to think of how to best to word it that's just again based on the current verbiage to deny unless extru circumstances come from a previous approval I yeah I'm trying to think of the best way to word it now is is that are only options approved deny or table there's not like yep we ow we owe it to the applicant to make a decision one way or the other well or say that we need more information or to table it well that's that's what he said he he threw on all three so but I concur tenner I think we should make a motion based on the current ordinance but bring it to City council's attention that there might have been existing documents when it was approved that might want to be considered before they fin decision if so I'd like to have the motion also state that we would like to see this happen we just don't know how at this point in terms of the language so so we're not like if we deny it's not because we don't think it's a good idea it just the opposite but that we don't know how to move forward given the ordinance it appears the change in 2019 was for service animals therapy dogs service animals were added to the ordinance okay so then it would go back to the 2009 when tamies was approved on what basis was it approved on what basis was it approved so in the interest of our time again not having that if if there was a I want to make sure I word it right I would put forth a motion to deny with the notice H trying to think Brian you worded it well I apologize how did you say it oh um uh a motion that uh we deny per the current ordinance as it is written but ask that city council consider the approval in 2009 when making the final decision second it okay it's my way of saying you motioned it yeah he did okay and Aon got the motion and tryan here okay could I ask for further discussion you surely can it might be good but we should decide this whether the applicant would prefer that we table it and draw it out another month before coming to our decision or to send it as this motion has been made knowing that we are trying to find if there is language that would allow this like in terms of the time frame basically so you're asking me to would prefer that it move forward even with a denial knowing that we are trying to see if there's a way to do this or to wait another month for it to come back here and then go to council after that okay so you want me to open the public hearing again if you're think that's a good question ask I don't know if you need to you can just ask him directly he's the applicant he can okay so Andy um would you would you prefer that we table this and kind of take our time about getting the conditions of that um that we had or just deny it and then say to the city council we deny it we might even say we're for you um but um you need somebody needs to get more information so we're asking you how' you like to go forward this is really unusual there's going to be more information following either way um and based on the research from 2019 and the ordinance change the ordinance in my situation is still the same as the 2009 so there is a way approve it we9 okay so you want us to go forward with the denial table it table it I like a lot the reason I'm asking that is because if we table it it it won't appear until another month and then it'll go from that point to the following month following like two weeks or whatever the next um council meeting would be so it's about six weeks you'd be you'd be into the middle of April before city council would see it yeah I've been going on this summer so you're fine with you're fine with continuing not to operate okay I love hearing that um so right now we have a motion on the table so then second and seconded so we would have to deny it to create a motion to table it I'm so confused no I got you I got I got you I got you it's okay the person who made the motion and the second could also withdraw and you could just make a new motion I was just going to ask if you want to you withdraw that do you want to withdraw your motion I would like to withdraw my motion thank you I'll withdraw the second okay do we have another motion I'd like to make a motion to table this item pending further research on how the 2009 K license was granted so we can well just leave it at that yeah okay any seconds I'll second that thank you okay any discussion no okay okay let's take a vote all in favor say I I I and opposed okay so the eyes won on that one there and likely won't be a public hearing at the next right section we've completed Our obligation at a public hearing but you are more than welcome to open that back up if you wish at that time but it wouldn't be necessary and we will remember this discussion and this night it's been unprecedented I will say okay so thank you really for your patience while we kind of work through this okay great um we'll go on to the next agenda item which is a variance request Aaron yeah give me one second Adam chair to get things organized here get myself back where we should be all right um variance requests for a detached exess accessory structure to be placed near the front lot line than the primary structure at 1 19455 4th Street Northeast this property is located in the rural residential zoning district and is located within the norsland manor subdivision the Property Owners requesting a variance for the placement of a detached accessory structure closer to the street than the primary structure on the south side of the lot zoning uh appendix a general regulations Section 14 2. F states that no accessory building or detached private garage shall be located nearer the front lot line than the principal building except for when the lot is 3 acres or greater and the existing principal structure is located a minimum of 200 ft from the fraen lot line then the accessory building or private detached garage may be located closer to the front lot line than the principal dwelling but not closer than 50% of the principal dwelling setback this property is 1.09 Acres with the primary structure setback approximately 90 feet from the front lot line or 95 ft excuse me this request does not meet the criteria set forth to allow the structure to be placed closer to the road or street so a variance would be required for the placement of the detached accessory structure the consideration of a variance requires the Planning Commission consider the three Factor test for practical difficulty the first factor a test of reasonableness means that the land owner would likely use the property in a practical way but cannot do so under the rules of the ordinance it does not mean that the land cannot be put to any reasonable use whatsoever without the variance so for example if the variance application is for a building too close to the lot line or does not meet the required setback the focus of the first factor is whether the request to place the building there is reasonable in this case uh accessory structures uh are permitted are a permitted accessory use in the rural residential zoning District the second factor is that the land owners's problem is due to circumstances unique to the property not caused by the landowner the the uniqueness generally relates to the physical characteristics of a particular piece of property that is to the land and not the personal characteristics or preferences of the landowner when considering the variance for a building to encroach or intrude into a setback the focus of the factor is whether there is any physical unique physically unique about the particular piece of property such as sloping topography or other natural features like wetland in this case the property is relatively flat with a 2T elevation change across the entire 1acre lot the primary residence was constructed in 1986 and built directly in the center of the lot the well and septic are located on the north side of the residence there are 25t sidey yard setbacks in our rural residential family zoning District the house is located approximately 88 fet from the sidey yard property line there are 25t rear yard setbacks in the rural residential single family zoning District there's 125 ft between the front foundation and the rear property line in this in this property zoning code allows for a uh 1,40 ft detached accessory building or an approximately 30X 40 maximum for a property of this size the adjacent property has a significant stand of evergreen trees which straddle the identified property line there is a 10-ft concrete slab on the side of the house attached to the garage and there is a row of arborite bushes or trees five in number adjacent to the slab the third factor in the variance is that it would not alter the essential character of the neighborhood I'm trying to get you guys a closeup here of the property um this factor is used to consider whether resulting structure would be AOS scale a of place or otherwise inconsistent with the surrounding areas for example when thinking about a variance for a encroachment into a setback the focus is how particularly the building will look closer to the lot line and if that fits within the character of the neighborhood in this case um in nors Manor there are 30 uh there are 74 Parcels in Norland Manor of the 74 37 have detached accessory structures three of those 37 are nearer than the front lot line than the primary structure however they were constructed prior to 2008 section 14 of the detached accessory structure ordinance was amended in March 9th of 2020 um standing tree growth between the proposed detach accessory structure and the front property line may be a screen from the public roadway City staff is requesting the Planning Commission hold a public hearing and recommend approval or denial of the variance request to the city council for the placement of the detached accessory structure nearer the front lot line than the primary structure with the conditions written in the resolutions uh attached in your packet all right thank you okay we're going to open up the public hearing for this issue and does anyone want to come up Gino do you want to come up my name is Gino Bree I live at 19 14554 Street the property in question here um my wife and I have lived in that house since uh 20 in 2000 um we're getting ready to retire and we've just we're finishing the stuff we need to do to retire in three and a half years um the last thing was was to build a garage and um we've kind of set up our property I wish I had a pointer to where oh there you go I'm trying to bring up a better one here I know that 2020 is a much better view um where the City wants the garage to be would be behind here would be here um the the trees that we planted beside the house there would be in the shadow of the Sun from the south we planted these Arbor bites here because the South the house having a Southern Exposure kills everything that's there the son just Rel so um our idea was to build a garage here we've redone our driveway to accommodate that in may only to find out when we applied for a building permit that we weren't allowed to have a property in front of the house um the only reason that we wanted one we kind of designed everything like this because our neighbors to the South have one and you know we watched them build theirs neighbors to the South East we watch them build theirs neighbors to the Northwest we watch them build theirs and so now if we build where we can get a permit we'll lose the Landscaping there's a window right here that we'll look out and see the side of the garage I me and the only way to get to there we we've already cut down these are approximately 100y old trees here they're about this big in diameter Planning Commission I don't know if he's going to any of what he said is going to be caught by the because he's so far from the microphone yeah if you could um try to stand closer to the microphone please um so we're trying to oh yeah mic okay we're trying to minimize you know if we build this where we can be permitted you know without a variance there's really no way to get to the garage because we'd have to cut down you know two stands of trees to get to it um our neighbors to the South here if we build down here coming out um it gives us 25 ft between the garage and the property in order to have um an area where those Arbor vites are to the south of that there's a gas line that we can't move the garage closer to the house so and if we our initial plan was to park a motor home there we've got five kids three of them live out of state Southern two in California one in Mississippi was to spend them Winters in an RV but if we have to put it where it's permitted we won't have anywhere to park it because we can't get by our neighbors trees without asking them to trim them so we can get in there so what yeah so the RV is going to go in the Gage no the RV would go beside the garage if these trees right here the garage would be like start here and 25 ft from this lot line it it doesn't give much room back in there but if the garage was placed the other way it would give us 35t in order to get to the access to the backyard and have an RV park there so what we're trying to what we want is the city is to let us put it in front of the house like the people our neighbors I I didn't know that ordinance would Chang or I would have tried to find a way to to do this somewhere else but now we're kind of committed on where the this garage is going to be so what I'm asking you guys is to you know let me go where I know it's practical problems practical difficulties per the variance for the variance ordinance is to the property but it's the the trees to the South aren't my property and they're a difficulty I mean i' I'd like my neighbors I I don't want to go hey we're going to start chopping your trees up so can get to your get to our stuff so what we want to do is just put it where the black truck is out that way and I mean it it matches you know several houses in the neighborhood so it's not an isore it's just I don't know why the bar the ordinance was changed but we're just hoping that we can put it where we want it and not where we have to okay okay great thank you does that make sense yeah it makes sense okay okay thank you yeah the only question I was going to ask you is like kind of what harm was there going to be if or what hardship and you answered it all yeah okay yeah it's um we like the trees to the to the West there because they do have some shade granted they're 100 years old but we lost some on the other side do the lightning strikes and wind and it took a lot lot to clean them up so I mean if we can we want those to stand as long as we can because there that's a lot of wood okay so okay can I ask two questions um how big is it going to be what you're in town 40 by 30 okay so just exactly like that square right and it's going to run that way only just push it up and over it it'll run this way yeah 40 which way is the 40 way 40 this way oh okay so 40 and 30 this way oh and so where will the entrance be off your existing driveway try to keep by the microphone though sorry yeah it would be we would be able to drive in our driveway existing driveway right right in the existing driveway otherwise we'd end up we can't have two driveways so right and even if we could we wouldn't want to cut down all the trees to build a second driveway so if we can use that one but like your neighbor you could continue the driveway to the structure use the same driveway to get to the structure without having to build a whole another no I'm saying you could attach if leaving the blue square where it is you could attach the driveway yeah like that way like this yeah I don't I'm not saying it's pretty I just saying it's doable without having to lose the trees well it's doable without losing the trees the only problem is is then I know you know per your thing there cost isn't a factor but for us cost is a factor so having to you know build a I don't know 60ft driveway you know enough to where you can pull in and then back out and then turn around would be prohibitive for us any other questions okay no I think so thank you dino very much okay so is there anyone else who'd like to address this issue if not I'm going to close the public hearing and open the discussion do we we don't need do we need a motion for opening discussion whatever yeah I was always decisive on that one I know Randy used to call for 20 years we never had any we never had didn't prior to that Randy really was more insistent that it was Robert's Rules of Order his knowledge of ab absolutely the only comment I would make to that always was you know we operated on an a bridged and not a hard line on on that so yeah I'm okay saying open to discussion unless anybody else has when we close public hearings then we'll open the discussion for this year I have zero issue with that great you're the chair I can see I can see you want to say something oh no but on that topic I wanted to to say that you're the chair and we don't have to follow that time consuming process good but I do have something to say about this yes so um for one thing the set the house is set back pretty far so it's to me it's understandable if you have a shorter setback to not extend the accessory structure in front of it so that that's one thing in the favor of what he poses um another thing is that stand of trees acts as a very good screen in terms of the effect on the neighborhood for which I mean it's those are that's an older photo so you don't see the thick foliage as well but you typically don't in Winter right but I mean like the growth not yeah just not just the growth I mean the Fage but would okay um so it's not like I think the the ordinance is just so you don't have a neighborhood full of garages that are the first thing you see and rather than the houses because that doesn't look very good I don't think that's an issue on this particular Cas because of all the U all those trees second or third depending on how you're counting um it's like to me when I see something like this and the way you explain it I I'm I'm just thinking let the guy do what he wants to do on his property because he not harming anybody um it's reasonable to me and it's like that our ordinance are to protect Community but not to be a cudle to keep people from being able to do what's reasonable and enjoy property is you know he's there every day thinking about what's going to work for him we're just looking at this and it just I can really empath empathize with what he wants to do here um which again seems reasonable and anyway that's that's those are my points yes okay good any other thoughts is it a a stick building then it's not a pole Bill no it's stick building stick same siding as a house ex and we won't be having um only only because I don't want you talking but because you're not by the microphone so um but and Aon can answer these questions real quick too right I sure can yeah I haven't seen the building permit myself but uh I haven't I was denied one oh okay all righty so are you satisfied with the yeah if it's yeah it matches the house is I guess my concern same rof and siding well that that would be an architectural standard for regardless of whether it was a pole barn or a stick build it would have to somewhat resemble the existing structure so the architectural colors patterns roof texture like that should all be as close as possible yeah based on the building or our zoning code for yeah I think that Gino has been like you said planning this out for a while um and uh you know he's been there for 20 24 years now 23 years so um I believe that he's going to you know it's it's a reasonable request um you know the the lot will not look uh scattered or disar it'll look very nice I guess he's not making it a eyesore in the neighborhood and um uh you know uh there's other plots in that same manner that have similar structures so I think it's a reasonable request okay thank you any dissension here yes actually okay good I'm I'm the negative guy tonight apparently um and I'm going to keep using the word precedent here and and I don't argue with the first and the third factor of the variance test um however I don't feel the second factor is met especially from the standpoint that the zoning ordinance does address the situations when houses are set what's considered far enough back in this case showing minimum of the 200 ft which this does not meet that standard so at the time whenever the ordinance was drafted again I'm assuming it was done with with well intent and thought through on this so to try to circumvent that I I I can't see that for the second factor and again this is where I go back to the precedent Factor we we we see a lot of variance requests and we're going to continue to see them as long as they're still a city and we really have to be careful I mean that and and the state actually did a good job in and even changing how variant now EXC excuse me Los My Voice by the end of the day here but how the variance requests are done with the three- Factor test they they even simplified it um a handful of years ago to make our lives a lot easier because these used to be a lot more difficult L if you remember correctly uh which we may find out from the earlier topic about what happened in 2009 but um I just not seeing where the second factor is met I I can't vote in favor of it okay well one thing that is unique is having 100y old trees which could be negatively affected by um by a structure being in that spot no by well actually no because you could do the driveway like you said um and and again I don't want to say not to have the driveway but evident from the photo that he's not opposed to driving in the Grass either it's if you didn't want to do a driveway right away or add it in over time as well so like I said I I struggle with the second factor and there's a reason there's all three factors and it can't just be the 2/3 to cover it unfortunately we need all three so the way I read this is that uh the appendix was specific to a lot that is three acres or greater throughout that number of 200 ft from the from the lot line mhm and so I see that this structure is very Central to was it a one point what was the size of the lot I think 09 1.09 1.09 so um that's why I think it's a reasonable variance request because it's a third of what that uh regulation is addressing yet the C the main structure is in the center of the lot so um that's why I think it's I think I think the spirit of the ordinance though was for lot because Lots can be greater houses can be set farther back and it was worded in a way to prevent that from happening in these rural residential areas from popping up and although that there is some in the neighborhood that were done prior again I without seeing all the history and and the house and the wise and if they were granted variances or not or if it was allowed at that time or they built it without a per you know a lot of factors can play into those so the three that are in the development that are built in front of the front line were built prior to the ordinance change all the other of the 34 that are left minus those three are all behind the front line of the houses these lots are all very similar in size throughout the entire uh 70 plus Parcels so again if we change the ordinance to specifically address this to prevent that from being the case we're circumventing the ordinance if allowing it in my opinion because it doesn't meet all three factors of the variance test and although unfortunate that it's not the 200 ft and he's not in a larger lot but if that's you know if that's where we change the ordinance and how it how it reads I just I can't see approving it Andor creating the precedent for the future for anyone else wants to build a detach structure closer to the street in front of their house for a lot of different reasons it seems to me that we have um recommended approval for many similar ones right again in in other in other situations where there were other cases and they fit all three fact yeah I just I like I said I can't I can't see it in the second one on this I I said I agreed the first and the third are met I just for for me I don't see it in a second the house directly to the South it doesn't appear as if his structure is going to stick out any further than that structure right I mean it's going to be I guess if he goes the 40 foot way maybe it will yeah I think it would but if it was the 30 it probably wouldn't but that speaks to the third Factor not the second Factor H give me one second here I need to get out of acres and go to feed otherwise we're talking a big building no it's still went to can I ask the applicant a yes or no question sure go ahead if you were to orient your garage instead of the 30 and 40 as you have it but rotate at 90 degrees would it functional functionally work for you and just try to keep it real short because we're going to kind question I'm not sure what youan if you were you have it planned so the long Dimension is this way I don't know if that's what he has planned that's just what I came up with for a 30X 40 he no he said that oh okay he said 40 going horizontally so if you were to rotate it so that the 40 was going in this direction parall to your tree line that's the way I only way I can get it permitted but I mean would it function for you to do it way I I guess it would function just I wouldn't be able to pay it okay so he said that it would function but he wouldn't be able to pave it why why would you not be able to pave it do you want to open the public hearing again I I think we can still haven't come up without opening the public forum we've had applicants up to to have back and forth discussion G would you just come up to the microphone again it's it's just so that they can record what you say in the minutes all right um if if the garage was placed in this fashion here M it would be cost prohibitive for me to PVE it we just had our driveway replaced and widened if we you mean like that right then the Garage would have to the doors would have still be on the 40 right and we'd still end up Paving right so you couldn't enter that's not enough then you're then I only have be able to have one basically one narrow door because uh the building ordinance say is that you have to have four fet between doors and the edge of the wall so if you put a 16t door in the middle of it you have to have four feet on each and that's 24 feet so it doesn't leave much room for I'm not aware of that because talking about with the per it's a new ordinance that's it's a called a wind wall you can put you would have to put um three layers of lbl I don't know what that is across a solid beam all the way across for where the garage door openings are for a wind wall so the wind doesn't structurally supporting the wall so came in but I that's not how my garage I have a foot or two and a half I would I would have a a 30 a 40 foot deep garage with basically one door right that no matter what you want it would always be at the back would you be opposed to just attaching it to the front of the garage down the driveway you have less driveway and more garage if we did what um I don't know how would do that then if I you line you line up the north side with the north side of your current garage right um I'm just saying once you attach it you you alleviate yourself from that right we we were trying to figure out what the definition of an attached garage what I mean structurally attach attached but by one board 2 by4 if I took a 25t 2x4 and nailed it from garage is that that's what we were trying to Fig you'll have to match the footing of the existing building you attach we were trying to find that definition and we couldn't find it anywhere um yeah I could build that garage but if it was attached to the house I could not bu that garage I'm not capable of that so that's above my that's above my pay grade and if it was back that far then they're they still Paving you know like that I would I would put the garage there and just try to find a way to plow the yard because too much I don't have the money for that much ashole yeah all righty yeah thank you dino very much turn do we want to talk about this or does somebody want to make a motion anybody I'll make a motion to deny based on not meeting the three Factor variance test is there a second okay I don't hear a second is there anyone who want to make a motion to recommend approving this variance I'll make a motion to approve the variance request um with any staff recommendations that may be applicable but I don't see them so okay I'll make a motion to approve the variance request recommend approv yes okay all right so we have a a motion to recommend approving the variance request any seconds I'll second the motion okay great and we'll vote all in favor say I I and opposed I I okay and the eyes carry that or the future reference there's always still discussion between the second and the vote but we got okay got it okay thank you for that no I just I would have no in the future I I would have again re advocated to for someone to please tell me where the second Factor came in would have been my my question okay um thank you and I do want to thank you um for your opposing opinion I you know sometimes I think we do get in this discussion that everybody's agrees and we need to have it's it's not for trying to be an asay and trust me I I am empathetic on a lot of these situations and I know I don't always come across that way but in in reality we I'm going to reference Elden Once Upon a Time too I was just talk about elen to I I very much appreciate it in a in a similar fashion and I do embody a piece of that because it did stick with me very much especially due to the fact that one of the reasons El didn't even left in the first places is he had he from what he had told me at the time is he had struggled with ex well that was his exiting statement if I remember correctly it was he struggled with how often we were approving variance requests when not all factors were met and from my interpretation felt that more emotion was was put into it than than with what the latter of the law is and create a predent so that stood that sat with me very very hard especially when he left because Elden was a a great resource for someone who had been on this body for a long time so I do try to remember that when we have stuff that comes up of looking at all sides because again if you know if if uh if the Border place was again F fit was here wonderful I again I have no doubt that he would run a great business there however I do see that there are other ways to do things and although it's not always cost effective I again I'd love to do a lot of things too but I don't have the money to do it either so you know as much as I hate to say it you know what there if this is your passion and there is land not far from where you're at and it fits that it might fit that unfortunately I know that you know the cost for the driveway and or where garage may get placed isn't always reasonable I get it too my brother just helped him frame a detach accessory structure he's got a bit of a unique property that got added together and he had to place it behind his house and it you know based on a cornered curved Boulevard not exactly an easy thing to do but was but was done and I think we also do have to remember those who have followed the ordinances and either not built things reduced in size moved things done them the way they had and for things to go through sometimes it could be hard for those who didn't get something to see something that had gotten through so it's there's there a lot of factors that go into it when I do think this through so I thank you for recognizing that is what I'm saying here but for those who are new please please remember that as well like I said it's as much as we all want to put our emotion into it too we have to let things go through the process and we have to see if it fits or doesn't fit and we've seen that with and I'll reference the old CST issue if you guys are familiar with that we had a business who wanted to operate in an industrial area it was a little bit on the gray side from the Geto but they applied we let them apply because they're they have every right to apply but once you apply there's a process that has to happen and needs to be followed and we can't stop that just because we either a don't like it but if it we have to follow the process and we have to trust the process that it'll do what it's supposed to happen just again why I my opening statement to the bordering folks tonight was we may want to look at the ordinance for ordinance change but the way I see it right now doesn't fit so was still trying to give him an Avenue and although it doesn't always fit at this moment it might in the future or again advocate for a change in the ordinance we've had other ordinance changes come up in the last year with the new Council as well for things that they felt were necessary changes so I don't think it's a hard argument to ask for what you're asking for just do it the right way that's all I'm trying to say with it okay so in the language thank you for the opportunity to speak on that okay in the language it says consider consideration of a variance requires the plan commission to consider the three- Factor test for practical difficulties the word consider doesn't say obey to it says consider which we've done and so I'm I'm seeing that as some leeway as to our decision making on a Case by casee basis rather than you know this you can't like the language of the arance on the previous one is pretty clear but this is for a variance we're considering practical difficulties which I think we did and even if it didn't meet that second one unless you got really creative about the language I still think we've considered it and we've looked at a specific situation before us and it seemed like a good fit that was fitting in with the neighborhood the situation of land and the trees and fulfilled his needs and I just again I come back to these ordinances are to protect the city to protect the people and you know people should also have have the right to do what they want on the property if it doesn't negatively affect others is my bottom line on that yeah it's kind of why you had variances anyways but again i' very much appreciate what you were saying so um and with you guys this this discussion has been kind of unusual a lot more in-depth than we we normally do um so I apologize to council member Smith that this is probably going to be how all the meetings are going to go I do really appreciate everybody's thoughts you know even if you're aren't so sure of what you're going to be saying I do appreciate it okay so um and the the one thing that I just wanted to talk to you all about is you know we've had kind of a rough year in the Planning Commission um the last year um I think that there were some emotional issues with Capstone and um I think that we just need to kind of keep emotion out of it and tner really does a great job of that of not being emotional about things I think uh so we're going into a new year and and I really value everybody's discussions and I'm going to kind of pull you into the discussion everybody okay so you're going to be here for a while Council mersi would you um I think you're next up aren't you yes good evening good even planning Commissioners congratulations coring thank you Ryan and Sharon oh and Gino thank you you knew how that went right that you no yeah it was approved well you recommended approv well yeah I'm sorry we recommended goes to council toity goes to next Council council meeting yes okay goo thank you thank you very much guys okay thanks sorry last night we had a one of our shortest meetings which was fine and uh we had a public hearing on for on sale Liquor on for Sundays for the it's going to be called the MC garage it's the muddy C it used to be what the heck was that moonshine was moonshine yeah and so we voted yes on that and then uh also for the MC garage gambling permit it's a temporary permit and it's kind of cool Rapids Youth Hockey is going to train St Francis youth hockey on how to do the gambling so it's pretty cool that they're willing to do that and press the proceeds are going to go to St Francis and then we'll get the share of whatever that works out to be but other than that U it was cool that way but that's all I got so I didn't take up your time at all okay well and the the Capstone development the preliminary was approv Cor pass yep so so and then they're working on yeah I mean Aon said it could probably take a year even on that ditch situation so there's a lot of environmental yet that needs to be a lot of wetland stuff the next time we'll see them will be for the final plat once they've gotten through all their checklist so yep according to Aaron it's a big check list too so absolutely it'll be a while but thank you thank you very much okay anybody else have anything else they want to talk about no it seems like we got thrown into the fire on first night Tom Brian oh uh to to be fair there's been far worse burning occasions I know I'm sure but oh yeah but I mean I mean this was just lengthy discussions but it's good yeah I mean I really do think that this is a great kind of um incubator of democracy and people can come up they talk get their um opinions heard and then we'll discuss it it's really nice I'll motion to adjourn well seconds okay all in favor of adjourning say I I anybody want to stay okay good we're Jour you got to hit the little bangy thing up there oh