All right, open meeting. Today is 17th September at 6 o'clock and we'll start with the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Mr. Johnson, you roll call, please. Mayor Hibbid >> here, >> council member Bryan >> here, >> council member Glazer >> here, >> council member Rainville >> here, >> council member Senson >> here, >> and myself, Natalie Johnson. Roll call is complete. >> Okay. >> Any adjustments to the agenda? >> Mr. Mayor, >> council member, if there are none, I'll make a motion to approve the agenda as presented. >> Second. >> Any discussion? Hearing none, let's move to vote. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Post. Motion carries. So we'll move into the public forum. Uh I'll start by reading the letter that uh was sent to the city. Um so letter states, I've been noticing a concerning trend in recent city council meetings, but after watching this week's meeting on YouTube, I felt compelled to reach out. It was by far the most disappointing meeting I've seen. My concern is not about a particular issue, position, or decision. Communities need healthy debate and differing viewpoints. What concerns me is the growing lack of respect being shown during the meetings by residents, former council members, and at times current council members. We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can challenge ideas without attacking one another. In fact, some of the best decisions come from respectful debate. But respectful dialogue is not optional. It is essential if we want residents to trust their local government and feel comfortable participating in civic discussions. I'm asking every member of the city council to take a stronger role in setting the tone for these meetings and in particular and in holding participants accountable to basic standards of civility and respect. When conversations become personal, hostile or disruptive, elected leaders have both the opportunity and responsibility to direct the discussion and reinforce expectations for respectful conduct. The tone that is tolerated becomes the culture of the community. Right now, I worry that culture is moving in the wrong direction. I love this community, which is why this concerns me now that it's filled with thoughtful, hardworking people who care deeply about its future. I hope future meetings reflect the respect, maturity, and neighbor neighborly spirit that I know our community is capable of. Sincerely, Sarah B. Okay, next for um spoken forum. Uh Deb Dryen, please state your name, your address, and you have three minutes. Please get the timer up. >> Almost writing 6680 by to the members of Nen City Council. I'm writing as a longtime resident and taxpayer of Melen. My husband Randy and I have lived here for more than four decades. We raised our families here, family here, paid taxes here, and operated businesses in this community for many years. We are extremely disappointed in council member Dan Swinson in the way that he has publicly portrayed our family. He has taken portions of documents statements out of contest context and made comments suggesting that we are not understanding the documents we are signing. We are getting over our heads. Quote, he also referred to our family as having a pity party and our appearance at council meetings as a circus. These comments are insulting and inappropriate for someone serving on count city council. Our property consists of approximately 100 acres and originally included three lots. We followed the proper development process to create a fourth lot so we could build an additional home. Our development agreement was completed in December of 2023 and recorded with the county. After we submitted our building permit in the spring of 24 2024, the new planner and the city attorney began imposing additional and charging requirements, including a 26 ft road, which is our driveway, and turn lanes on County Road 22. Meetings were held regarding our property without our involvement. Yet, we were charged for that time. These actions resulted in in a bill of $9,72.50 which we paid ourselves in 2025. We never asked now taxpayers to pay this bill. We asked that it be waved because we believe the planner and attorney went beyond what was necessary after the request for our building permit and began treating the situation as though we were proposing to add another lot. Even though the fourth lot was already already been created under our complete develop completed development agreement, there was also an attempt by the city to assess the $9,72 bill against our property tax because they apparently believe we might not pay it. As a part of that process, the city incured an additional $325 in attorney fees. The city ultimately paid that $325 fee. This expense was unnecessary because we had already paid the legal bill within the required time. It is deeply troubling to have this situation publicly portrayed as though we wanted taxpayers to pay our bill or that we receive special treatment. That is not what happened. Our family has spent more than 40 years building our reputation in Melbourne. Public statements and misrepresenting facts affect not only Randy and I, but also our family and our businesses. We are not asking for special treatment. We are asking for fairness, professionalism, and consideration of fact, complete facts and documents rather than select information being used to create false impressions of our actions. We respectfully ask city council to review this matter carefully and consider whether the conduct and public statements of council member Swenson meet standards that should be expected of someone representing residents of Nville. Sincerely, Remy. Next up is call [sighs] 18735 clear. I support you sports sports recreational opportunities and partnerships that benefit our community. However, I do not believe the current outdoor rink proposal is ready for approval and to make a decision tonight for now then taxpayers to potentially absorb more than $20,000 in costs without data and tax is irresponsible. At the September 8th city council meeting, Mayor Kevin said taxpayers would pay half in 27 and the remaining half in 28. And he didn't even have any data or facts on what that cost would be. He still don't. During discussions with me, Ryan from the Alber Youth Hockey Association acknowledged that this concept originated as part of a 5-year plan and expressed surprise at how quickly the project is moving forward. That alone should give us reason to slow down and ensure all details have been properly vetted before committing taxpayer dollars. To date, Kexus has not been provided with necessary information on the chiller equipment or a load sheet outlining the facility's power requirements. Without those details, how can taxpayers accurately understand the true cost of this project? What is known is that the proposed chiller would require a significant electrical infrastructure, including a new three-phase service. When I specifically asked whether the Elberger Youth Hockey Association could pay for the infra in infrastructure necessary to support his equipment, the answer was yes. But they'd be unwilling to do so because if they decided to pick up and leave, they couldn't bring the new service with them. Ryan told me that the association already pays substantial fees for ice time and indicated that having a guaranteed re rink available for its program would be highly beneficial. If a private organization requires specialized infrastructure to operate on city property, I believe the organization benefiting from the that infrastructure should bear those costs, not the taxpayers and all. In many commercial lease arrangements, utility upgrades required by a tenant are paid for by the tenant while the improvements remain with property owner when the lease term ends. That model would protect Maryland taxpayers and ensure public funds are not subsidizing private operational needs. Equally concerning is the absence of a contract that clearly defines responsibilities, long-term obligation, maintenance requirements, utility costs, and as an as an example, when I asked if they were taking over the existing electric service for the warming house and the lights, he said, "I don't know. It hasn't been discussed." Like council member Brian stated in the last meeting, "What about insurance coverage?" And most importantly, what happens if the organization later decides to discontinue its use of the facility? Residents deserve those protections before the vote is taken, not after. Ryan did mention additional amenities such as a concrete base and permanent structure as desirable future improvements, but made it clear that those costs would likely fall to the city rather than the association. That raises an important question. When does the spending stop? Until those questions are answered, I believe approving this proposal would be premature. I support hockey. I support recreation. But I also support protecting the taxpayers and all. And I believe we owe residents a complete plan before asking them to pay for an upgrade upgraded electric service that [clears throat] should be paid for by the Alpine Hockey Association. Thank you. >> Uh Todd Moroski, 1997 Boss Street. Mr. Mayor, council members, thank you. Appreciate the special session. I just thought I'd share a few points of my perspective on hockey. I'm a hockey guy. Played hockey. Kids played hockey, ref hockey for 30 years. And I, as Paul had mentioned, I totally appreciate your efforts you hockey. Um, I I get the shortage of ice thing. Although, you know, I think back when our sons play hockey, the amount of money you paid, a lot of that money, unless I'm missing something that changed, but a lot of that money went towards ice, right? When a team uses ice, they pay for that, you know, during a game or during practice. So, you know, the reason it was $800 a year for us back in the day was because that got divided up by the amount of players and the amount of ice that was rented. So, I guess, you know, maybe this has been discussed and I haven't seen it, but, you know, I I understand that Elkro hockey is fronting a lot of the expense for the rink, but it just seems like if it's if it's a revenue stream for them and they're, you know, they're making money on the youth teams that are using that rank, does that not at all come back to us? Is there a way for us to is there a rental fee? I'm not trying to sh you how to get it down. Again, I'm a totally hockey guy, but it just hit me that, you know, these teams are paying a lot of money for that ice. And maybe there'll be a reduced fee for outdoor ice. I know we did when we roughed and played hockey outside. It was less than indoor ice, but if they're going to be bringing in money for the rick that's on our property, um it just seems like maybe there's a chance to work something out where there's, you know, some of that fee comes to us, offset some of the snow removal that our staff is going to be doing efforts time like this that we're all putting into debating it. Um so anyway, um I do appreciate your time. I appreciate all youth hockey efforts. I really do. Um I'm not here to to completely shoot the idea down. I just think there's other things as Paula mentioned seems like there's a lot of things that need to be worked out yet before a vote is given. So um thank you for your time. Okay form is complete. Is there anybody else? Anybody else signed up? Okay. So Ryan, you're up. So we're going to continue the discussion on uh with Ryan on Youth Hockey Association regarding the potential agreement on the ice lake renovation. Um Ryan, lots of things that were brought up here. So, we'll go back to where we were at and talk about um I know there was a couple open items coming out of the last one and if you want to start with following up on them, that would be great. >> Okay. Um I did submit a new proposal just outlining or adding a couple things that were not on the last one. Along the way, install and tear down would be our responsibility as well as removal of less than 2 in of snow. Um, I just as of 4:45 today actually got some of the updates that I've been waiting for. One of the companies is locally here in Minnesota and the owner who I was working with had emergency rotator cuff surgery. So, I I was able and I shared this with Paul on the way in. Um, to get some of that information. Um, but I do want to clarify a couple things that were brought up. We are not profiting and making any money from using the ice. We're not charging anybody for ice. We're not bringing in revenue from the ice. We are paying for not some of the project, but all of the project. Um, and going back to the the need for the power. I think this had been mentioned. If it wasn't clear, I can clarify. I have board approval to pay for that with no uh approval of yours to ever pay it back. That was the ask in the proposal. If that answer is no, we're prepared to pay for it. So to to if there's again the the proposal was just that if there was a counter I haven't seen one or heard one. Um I feel that some conversations that I have with working with Paula have now been used against me and this is news to me. Um never was that ever shared with me that >> when we talked on the phone I told you >> you don't you don't have the podium please. Um again uh some things that that that with this they're now being used against it almost I mean for lack of a better term seems like there might be a conflict there um with the information that I was asked to provide her and then for it to then be used against this proposal in this form. Uh I'm not saying once a day it might last us all year. Other questions? Anybody else that wants to chime in on this? [clears throat] >> So, Mr. Mayor, >> council member. >> Um, I mean, I understand, as Miss Coffee said, that the importance of organized sports. I grew up in Minneapolis. We were at the park all of the time doing organized sports. Um, my nieces and nephews kids are involved in hockey. one of them just got drafted by the [clears throat] Canadian League. Um, and so he's going to spend his junior and senior year of high school up in in Canada. Um, so I understand the value of that. Um, what I'm not finding is a return on investment for now then and its residents and I had said this the first or second time. There was discussion about how the res the parents will go over to our local business um businesses maybe eat dinner whatever um that brings money to them and and [clears throat] they need to be they need to have business and they need to be profitable but that's not our job to generate them revenue. Um, I don't see the return on investment or or now then that rake since it was installed and and I voted if there were 15 votes on it, I voted no on 14 of them because it wasn't a thoughtout process. We didn't have staff to take care of it. We did the outdoor boards or indoor boards outside. um it just wasn't was never run well because we aren't set up to do that and I just don't see this being a benefit to our residents. Um the insurance issue is a question and yes the league is covers us for everything else but there's still I don't know if there's an issue because there's two people that are carrying policies that I don't know I'm not an insurance expert. Um I don't know if our attorney has reviewed this. um the logistics. We're going to have to allow an outside um group to have access to the recycling center to be able to go in and get the Zamboni. Um you know I that there's liability there. Um I just don't I again I don't see the return on investment for the residents and now that um to go forward with this. So >> is there something that would change your mind on that? >> No. meaning what what what particular thing for return on investment are you looking >> I well >> so maybe not change >> well we it we've never made a penny on that rank all we've ever done is spent money >> and I don't see that changing [clears throat] >> yes councel I have a question for you there is no return on investment on any of our park equipment any of our parks and I and we don't we don't charge to use the parks we don't charge for the walking pass. We don't charge for the wood chips. We I mean it it improves the city and the only you know I guess because I drive by the two rinks that are in St. Francis every day on my way home and they are busy and they have the pleasure rink and they also have a hockey rink. There's a lot of pickup games there that happen. I think if the ice is here the kids will come. The ice that was there was junk. It was good for broom ball and that's about it. >> I don't even know if it was good for broom. >> Yeah. I And Miss Johnson, I you're right there. We don't get a return on investment. I just don't think it's a wise expenditure of our funds. Um the one group that used to use it for the broom as we heard that they are going to college and won't be there anymore. So um we'll still be there. >> Okay. And I misunderstood what it was saying. >> It's just going to be a smaller group. >> Smaller group. Sorry. I just I I I can't support it. I to me there's too many ifs ifs or when. And have has our attorney reviewed this and we have to Mr. Mayor. >> Go ahead. >> Okay. Yes. Bob and I have had a couple conversations about it and he will draft whatever it is the city wishes for us to draft. he's already um stated that, you know, we'll get it to the liability point and it'll have everything put down into it. This was just a proposal of what they will do and what they won't do, >> but we haven't gotten to the point to actually get an agreement because we haven't been able to move forward, >> right? And and I understand that also affects the issue of getting concrete dollars from Kexus because you as you said numerous times, you can't give them you can't request from them what you need until you have something signed from us. And that puts both the city and yourself in a precarious spot because we can't unless we can guarantee it, you can't have that info to go on forward. So I I just I I just don't see it being a value to the to the city and so I don't support it. >> So as we talked about contract so there would have to be some type of formalized contract Mr. Rupy would write that up. There would be some cost for that. I think the insurance one I think we can from my understanding with coverage from Ryan and group and Minnesota cities we're probably okay. Um not for sure but probably okay. And then the cost of the city, we also talked about that Brian said his group would cover it entirely. So if we took that off the plate that now is not paying for anything. Uh Zamboni location. Um Miss Johnson, can you talk about that? Did you talk about that with public works and come back with a proposal and how they would get it? How would it be secured? How is that going to work? >> It would just be able to go over into the warm side of the um recycling center. They'd be able to go in on the side door on the west side, be able to park on the warm side, and then same thing, be able to get it out. If the city wants to require it to be done during daytime hours, I believe you thought that you had a crew that could do it during the times that we're open. >> Uh, we could, yes, just depends on what the access is. >> It's only accessible during business hours, and we know that's the only time we can access it. Uh the one thing I I did and if I misunderstood uh totally understand if you have to go back to Eric on this, but my understanding was there was already a private group that has access to the recycle center and park a car in there in the winter time. Maybe a worker. So what we're that's what he had shared. >> Um some of the well one or two of the employee employees might do it when it's super cold. >> Got it. >> Because otherwise they don't start. But other than that, no, >> not that I'm aware of. Mr. Mayor, go ahead. >> Yeah, I would just like to respond to Councilwoman Rainville. I think you made some good points. Um I I think I would slightly tweak the analysis. It's not about necessarily return on investment because I think um Natalie is correct on that. Nothing returns an investment. It's more, you know, if the city is going to spend money, does do the residents benefit? Does the city benefit from it? And in this circumstance, [clears throat] um you know, we're not having to spend money and we're getting our ice turned into a very nice and usable piece of ice. I guess, you know, thinking about it from a little different perspective, you know, let's say we as a council wanted this ice to be more usable by our residents. You know, we could go out and buy all this stuff and, you know, pay experts to come in and help us with this. and instead we're getting this group to come in here and do it for free and front all the costs and and pay everything. The only cost or loss to our residents would be the loss of the use of the ice rink in the evenings. Um and my understanding was that it doesn't get used um by residents very much. that I mean that's really the the one thing that that would you know drastically change my mind I think if it turns out there are lots of residents using this every evening and and as a result of this they would lose the ability to use that but you know I'm looking at this as a a gain you know beautiful ice on the weekends for other residents to use but I mean those are good points Counc mayor counc >> um we do currently charge for rental of the baseball of softball and soccer fields um or should be because it's listed in our fee schedule. I know some organizations basically barter for services um like we do with the or do do or did with the church for use of the soccer fields we do with the the now the knights who do have a contract to use the field. Um, and so to me it seems like if if we are going to pursue this that there we definitely need to have some sort of contract outlining what's being done. Um and then there are other fe other other field other group organizations that are using the ball field and after we have uh improved the field by um donations of and I have no idea how much they were cost and the donor wanted to keep it anonymous um to improve the ball field um by uh installing sprinklers as um as well as redoing the entire infield that yes other organizations have came in and said yeah I want to use the I'd like to um use use the baseball field now, but I I've I I just But there also have been times when because they actually schedule it through the through our scheduling system that there's times when they didn't they weren't able to get the field because they forgot to schedule it when they wanted to have a practice or whatever that night. So, it's I just have a a challenge with the how how do we work out the details about I I get the feel I get the rank Monday through Friday for a given period of time. [clears throat] If someone did want to use it if it's not if there's not scheduled and if they're all booked up then is it literally going to be used every night from 4 to 10? >> I said we could be flexible. >> No, I I understand that. But but if are you literally would be planning on scheduling it five nights a week for for 6 hours a day or do you have a set um some sort of a a set uh number of groups that would be would be practicing out here at a given time so that there would be opportunities for other people to be using it during the week. >> We yes that's a possibility. I mean I could give you the number of teams we have. I mean that literally that number of teams was just formed in the last 3 days finalized. So >> and I understand that but I'm just going it seems to me that that um that this should be treated like any of our other um uh uh column fields ranks whatever where there it needs to go through a reservation system and and if someone else wants to use it they get to reserve it first come first serve however that works. So, but I think again this all comes down to ironing out the details and having a contract that we don't have in front of us as far as what what um what what we're eligible for or what are the the exact pros and cons, who's going to be doing what to and to Councilman Swinsson's point that I brought up before, what happens if if something if if parties don't want to partner anymore and how do how does that get separated off? Um because we've had challenges with that and um it it had to come up and and you know where you get into joint power agreements that we've had to that we've separated from and not having an official contract in place. It's very difficult to um for for me to to vote on this is close enough. [clears throat] >> Quite well taken contract. >> Absolutely. It would we're not to that step. So which we were excited about going forward we would do a contract. Um, but I would at least allow the process to continue on or or it it dies tonight so we're not having the same meeting to discuss the same thing. >> And Mr. [snorts] Mayor, >> yes, >> we can do the scheduling just like we do for the the fields for the barter kind of agreement. If you direct me as council to talk to Bob and have him draft an a contract for you to see, I [clears throat] will do that. I have chosen not to do that because I didn't want to spend any money on it until I had to go forward. I don't believe if there's any um no cost to the city, it's no different than the ball fields as a barter system and we can schedule it that way. >> So, going off Customer Brian's point is one of the things you could look at and say is all right, you've got the ice right now, you'll use it every chance you get. But if you say, "Hey, Wednesday nights from 4 to 6, you want to leave it open for residents." Ryan's willing to work with us. So, if there was a counter proposal, and that's kind of what he's been asking for is um that the residents do want to get on there and get some nice time during the week. All we have to do is say this is what we would like. So, I think you have to be super careful if they're going to do a a $550,000 investment to say, "Hey, open it up for anybody to schedule." I think we'd have to be careful with that because that wouldn't be a good return on investment for him. But you could say, "Hey, I want the city open from 4 to 7:00 on Wednesday and that's going to be open for the residents." And I think that's a proposal you can go and entertain. We've talked on that a little bit. So, is that important? Is there a day of the week or something like that? >> No, I'm not proposing anything cuz I suck at hockey. [clears throat] Um, but I know others others would like to use it. And yes, after we've done improvements to the ball field, other organizations or or people wanted to take advantage of it and use it. That may or may not come up. I just don't want to block out a specific amount of time and go, "Nope, we can't do it at because yeah, there might be some church organization that wants to use the rake on Wednesday nights. >> How about we make a proposal as 4 to 4 to 7 on Wednesdays that we would have access to it and and we'd incorporate that rate in. So if we did have a resident now, if nobody's using it and we can talk back, we can come back to it if nobody's using it all, but I think by just reserving 4 to 7 on Wednesday night, again, it's giving back to the residents so they have more time to play. Uh again, if you take the concept of we still need a contract, but other than that, it's almost like the details are manageable. If we say no cost to the city, there's no cost to the city. We have very little risk and the reward comes is that you have residents that can use it Saturday and Sunday and 4 to 7 on Wednesday. >> Can I address a couple of questions? I wrote them down. I just want to make sure I can maybe help provide some clarity. 100% we need a contract. >> We need to know that we're going to have access to this site. So, we're not asking for willy-nilly, let me go play out there. We need a contract to know that we're going to have access and that we're going to have first rate of the ice on these hours that are not designated for public use. 100% agree with that. Um, again, I don't want to beat the dead horse about a return on investment, but one thing that has not been mentioned at all is the amount of people that we are going to bring in are going to patron your restaurants while our kids are on the ice. Uh we do have a charitable gambling organization over there that donates back to your city every quarter and it is our largest charitable gambling operation of the six that we hold. >> So there is a return on investment there on the money that you would get back from us if those sales were to increase. The more people that go in there and patron them, the more pull tabs they sell, the more money comes back to you. Um, question came up about the the baseball field and and I don't know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask open-ended questions. People that are asking to rent the baseball field, did they make improvements to the baseball field? >> Did they come in and they made $500,000 capital improvements to that field? >> Like I said, I can't tell you the dollar amount because the donors were anonymous, but installing a sprinkler field on an entire baseball field, >> the users paid for that or an anonymous donor did. >> A donor paid for it. a donor and the donor could have been could have been a parent. Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea of knowing. They could they could I would kind of guess that the donor was somehow affiliated with the organization using it. I can't imagine someone would just go, "Oh, I just want to necessarily donate a sprinkler system." Um, I mean, obviously someone could, but um, I would speculate that it was a user of the uh, related to the user of the organization that donated an entire sprinkler field and actually had the the infield professionally rebuilt by someone who used to work for the Dodgers. [sighs] >> What that cost, I have no idea. >> But they can't take >> But you're speculating at that. I could have paid for it for all >> you could have, but I'm going they can't take that with them. >> Sure. >> That's there. There's no way they're going to come in and rip up an infield in a sprinkler system and going, "Oh, I'm done. My contract's over. We're going to take my ball batting ball and go somewhere else and play." You can't do that with an infield. >> Yep. And again, all we would be taking is the equipment we're bringing in. >> Okay. And that's just something that would have to be clear cuz I'm just just from a wording perspective when you say um that the uh wherever it went the equipment is uh the all rink equipment stays stays at er y has and I'm assuming that's not the boards >> correct the own boards >> but but that's a rink equipment I at least it could be considered that so that's just something of just a formality that needs to be clarified or if you mentioned at one point time you might replace the boards. What What do we do with the old boards? >> That's up to you guys. You own them. >> No, I I understand, but that would be where we'd have to figure out someplace to put them and store them and or they're just sitting. >> To clarify that we would reface the boards with fiberglass sheeting. Um the current board is a poly and it's not made for long-term outdoor use. Fiberglass wood. So all the the poly sheeting would be taken off and fiberglass will be put on over top of it was was what I was referring to. Again, those are things down the road that we're not nobody's prepared to deal with right now. >> But but as a city, it's something that we should be at least acknowledging that this would be an issue for if this is something that part of the partnership that we wanted to have that if the boards were redone. This is the first time I ever heard that the boards would be redone was tonight. >> Well, not if it was it was in the proposal previously. I it wasn't then it wasn't clear to me in discussion that it was a refacing of the board. To me it was a replacing the existing with something else. >> Sure. >> Mr. Mayor [clears throat] Council >> any one of the what I see happening is this is something that's very [clears throat] unique to now then probably to most cities. smaller cities are have more difficulty in getting their arms around this. Um, this came to us late in the season. My understanding of River Hockey Association wants to get started this year. So, they're under a time crunch, which puts us under a time crunch, and we shouldn't make decisions based on time crunches. Had this come um to council during last season, last hockey season or early spring, there would have been more opportunity to try to vet out some of the questions um that are still being asked. Um I [sighs and gasps] I again I just I I I I see too many questions, too many uncertainties. um to go forward with this. And again, I support hockey. I I was not a good I tried hockey, didn't work. I couldn't stop on hockey skis. I could on figure skates, no problem. Hockey skates I couldn't do. I played Brumball for years and years. Um so I understand sports. I I get it and I understand the value of it. Um I just as a person responsible for the funds within now then even though everything seems to be covered um I I worst case scenario that won't happen and we will have costs and we don't know what those costs are. And I'm not saying that I distrust Elk River Hockey Association. I that's not that's not where I'm coming from. Um, I just, you know, if if you have a disclaimer in here that you reserve the right to decide not to pursue a project if at any point it's determined the cost will exceed your available budget. And and I get that. Um, but what happens then, [clears throat] and I'm not an electrical person, so we put in this new three-phase power, and then we revert back to just our old boards and the lights that are there and the little warming house we have. Is that an overkill for an electric? And is that overkill going to cost us more? Or does it? I don't know. I I'm not, again, I'm not an electric person, so I don't know. So, I I'm fearful of the unknowns um in regards to um the the proposal and what what the unknowns are for the city. I mean, the the rink we have there has basically been a money put since we bought it and I don't want to continue with that. >> Mr. Mayor, go ahead. to what um council member Rainbow was just speaking about in regards to the the up the three-phase electric service there there are stranded costs that utilities have and part of that those stranded costs are recovered by rates that the rateayers pay >> and if and when Elbert Youth Hockey walks away from that because of the cost of that especially the the the transformer that's there >> I believe it's it's close to $4,500 a year >> minimum that has to be paid to recover those stranded costs. >> So there that is potentially an issue. >> Thank you. So that and you know this is and and Miss Coffee addressed this if if somebody goes into um to lease a business space um and they need to build offices, they you know uh need to redo lights, things like that. Those costs are typically borne by the the business owner and when they decide to if they either shut their business down or if they decide to move someplace else because they've outgrown it. That's part of their they factor that into their process doing business. I I did ask if there was a and I think you mentioned jump in here with the right terms disconnection discontinue of service >> if they wanted to abandon the service. >> Abandonment of service. Thank you. And I had asked if there's a charge for that and you said you didn't know. >> I I don't think so. We would just roll it back. But >> so it could just be rolled back. >> Mr. Mayor, >> but then what would it cost us to reestablish the service? I again it's just too many um for me. >> Well, if we if they abandon the the three-phase power, why would it need to be re >> reinstalled if you don't have a need for it? >> But and again, I'm not an electrical person. So, I don't know by bringing we have I'm going to say one phase because I don't know the difference. We have one phase there now. We pay for that. Does that come out and the three-phase comes in? And then if we no longer need that three-phase and we have to go back to the one phase, what does that cost us to to re-establish that service? Because if we I I would think and again I it's not my area of expertise, but I would think if we have one phase and then we have the three-phase, we're still going to pay that a fee for that a minimum billing for that one phase. If if I'm right or I don't know. >> Can I just summarize your question very quickly? >> Yeah. >> The lights are currently out there right now. Y >> does the three-phase get incorporated into the lights or are they going to stay two separate units? >> My understanding is they would be separate. They would have a separate meter because it's a three-phase meter. >> Completely up to how you guys want to do it. >> Okay. >> So, it wouldn't disconnect with the what's there. >> The question is is right now is there's going to be additional energy costs on the lights if they're if they're going. Um but Ryan's also said you would cover that bill. >> And I and Mr. May I understand that it's what happens if we have to revert back? What is that cost to us? >> I think we just heard that they disconnect it. So there wouldn't be that 45. >> There would be costs on your side. >> Yeah. Okay. There would be cost to disconnect it. >> Well, you would have to have an electrician. You'd have some cost there >> and then you have to deenergize and then the crew will come out. >> So there' be some amount of disconnection, >> but there's not a fee. It's not like we say it's $1,000. Sure. But there is costs. >> But if if we abandoned that, we would cover we I we would be willing to cover that cost >> to put you back where you were before we came. >> One other thing I had written down that I just want to put out there. Um return on investment. I heard some things about rental. We can absolutely rent the site from you, but then [clears throat] that means there's no public use. If we're going to rent it for the year, that's what we do currently with our current rate. We rent a space from Elk River Parks. I cannot allow public people. I have public people show up and I have to politely ask them to leave because we have to ensure that space for the time frame in which we're renting it. So, if you want to come up with a seasonal rental agreement, I'm open to that. >> I I Mr. Mayor, I wasn't referring to a seasonal rental agreement. I was referring to you're planning on have you have enough kids enough enough use of of that rink on Tuesday this spec specific Tuesday and we can have the kids there from 4 to 10 but on Thursday it looks like we can only have we only have enough need to have the kids there from 8 to 10. So that frees up the time from 4 to 8 or during the day that other people could could could reserve the field reserve the rank or just use it. But obviously yes during that time you rented it out that you would have u reserved the time um through the city and then yes that time would be yours. I >> I was just throwing out the idea of renting the site. I hear you don't want to manage it anymore. It's a money pit. If you want to rent the site to us, we'd be glad to take it over. >> But then would would it be available for Saturday and Sunday to the residents >> if we're paying rent? Fortunately, I would say no. Yeah, that that would take that out because that's going to be an important piece is something to give back to the residents. >> And and I only say that if we're paying to rent it like >> um [clears throat] >> I have another thing and I lost it. So I if I remember I'll bring it back up. I'm sorry. >> Was there any other questions from the council? Back to Ryan on any other discussion points. Ryan, I'll give you a minute to see if you can remember your question. pressure >> pressure. >> Um, >> I do not I cannot think of it at this time. >> Would anybody like to make a motion? >> Mr. Mayor, >> go ahead, please. Um, I I would move that we deny the request um from the Elk River Hockey Youth Youth Hockey Association regarding the uh potential agreement um for our hockey arena or hockey ring. >> Any second? >> I will second for discussion. Question for council member Randall. Could you just repeat your motion again? that we would deny the request from the Alberta Hockey Association to a to the best way to say it's a um for an agreement to share the facility or share the use. I I'm trying to think >> you said the outdoor rink >> outdoor rink. Yeah. I'm just wondering if if there's any interest at all because there's all this out there's several outstanding questions still if it may seem more feasible to at least maybe either like table this till February or March or just um or just not worry about it at all anymore. I mean I'm just if circum is denying this motion preventing it from coming up again at a later date if we have more information just clarifying that. Uhhuh. That did trigger my other point I wanted to make. I you're rushed and and yes, if there's a possibility that this was any possibility we could do it this year, this isn't a one and done for us. Like if this is something that we need to spend time more time doing, I'm open to that. This isn't I'm trying to push this through to get it in here right now. Right now. Right now. If if this doesn't go through for for use of this year, sure. Now we have more time. But that and I'll be honest with you, it gives me more time to raise funds and do all kinds of other things, but the need for us is real and that's why the push from my side. So I I would hate to see this be denied and have to start over completely if this is more questions need to be answered. Um but again, I can't get some of those hard questions without approval of some sort to use the site. [cough] >> So Mr. Mayor, >> I I would amend my motion to table it for further discussion. Um, which enables both sides of the both the Elk River Association and the city to have additional conversations um to try to fill in some of those blanks. >> Second. And but one of the things I see um is until there is an agreement, we can't come up with the dollar amount for the elector. So even though Elk River Hockey Association is willing to front that cost, they are asking us and would come back to us again to say will the city reimburse us? That's a decision the city will have to make at that time. We don't know what that cost will be. Um and so that that there's some difficulty there. Um we could say no and they're going to have to they paid for it. They've got it. >> So tell me about the good discussion we've had. So the contract you said you already have a contract. I I know the proposal is to table, but you already have a contract. So that would be something important. The insurance has been discussed. It could be no cost to the city. We talked about a zanboring location. We talked about the additional lighting bill and then there could be a disconnect bill in there. Uh and then there would be some attorney fees to review the um the contract. So if all of that was covered again that that would be the proposal I think that should come back on the table if this is table because there's already been a lot of pieces worked out on this. Maybe not everything but it's getting a lot closer than it was. >> Right. and to rem to remind the council and and anyone else who's watching on YouTube right now after our the budgeted expenses for parks in 27 there's only $25,000 left >> at at the end of this year pretty much does not cover reimbursing >> nearly anything correct all right so any other discussion we move to vote >> um Mr. Mayor, >> go ahead. >> Before you go ahead and vote, can you add to it if you want a contract that I can work with Bob to get that out? >> I think Miss Mr. Ryan already probably has a contract and it would just >> I was going to ask when you said I have a contract. What do you mean? >> I thought you said you you would have to have a contract with the city to make sure that you have access. You already had a contract with him is what I thought you >> I'm sorry. We have a contract with the city of Elk River for our current rink. >> Okay. So, I I could absolutely come up with a contract if you're glad we covered that. No, I don't have a contract written for you guys. Um, but I can I can absolutely come up with one. >> I think when when >> Yeah, we'll see how this goes. But, >> yeah. >> So, m Mr. Mayor, >> hold on one second. >> Mr. Mayor, so am am I correct in what I heard you say is that elder hoppy would bear the expense of our attorney reviewing or creating any contract. >> That was my that was my request. Yes. >> Thank you. >> That was my clarification. So again, if you can get it to a no cost to the city, that that helps everybody uh be more aligned with it and that being >> But the city would pay for Bob to review it for us. Correct. Just like or I could send it to the league. >> No, you could send it to Bob and we' ask River to cover the bill for that. That's what I was requesting. So if this comes in at a no cost to the city that will be the goal and then there's some benefit for residents on Wednesday from 4:00 to 7:00 and Saturday and Sunday. >> All right. Any other further discussion? Move to vote. >> So Mr. Mayor, >> go ahead. >> And just to clarify, is Elk River Hockey Association willing to cover the cost of our attorney reviewing your contract? >> Thank you. How do we figure out what that cost is? >> We won't know. When I hear attorney fees by the hour, >> get a little nervous that it might cost us $30,000 for them to spend time doing. I I get that that's an exaggeration >> provide. >> Perfect. >> We'd be able to give you, >> but yes, if it's reasonable, we would be willing to cover the cost. >> Any other discussion? >> So, Mr. Mayor, go ahead. And this is just a being the devil's advocate on behalf of El River Utah. If they're if they're going to grant the city say 4 to 7 on a Wednesday, um we should in there there should be something that says that commitments have to be made within a certain period of time. Otherwise, El River Youth Hobby can can't use it. Instead of that's great sheet, >> we would leave it open. It just it would be too hard for us to schedule last minute. Um, other things would be scheduled around that day. So, I would leave it open to the public. Just easier for you guys. It's easier for us not to try to change team schedules at the last minute. So, we just leave it open. >> Yeah. I was just thinking of a, you know, a reasonable time period that would allow you to use the ice if it wasn't scheduled. >> But if you know your schedule now, you could literally go into the city and say, I need it Monday, Wednesday, Friday from 7 to 9 from November through February. You can do that now. could do that. That how we pretty much do it now. >> I can't actually do that because I don't have game schedules yet. But I understand what you're saying. >> When when you have that >> absolutely we could go in there and I could I could build out 23 travel team schedules and say these are the hours we'd like to use. These are the hours that are open to the public. >> Okay. >> We have software. We literally plug in all the hours available. The team's available and we crunch our schedule and it it will schedule it for us. Pump out a spreadsheet that we can deliver to anybody. >> Mr. Mayor, go ahead. Yeah, I I mean I can see at all of these points that we're not ready tonight to identify and put a you know hammer out every single piece of this agreement. But I think Elk River Hockey Association has brought and done enough work that [clears throat] you know I'm comfortable that we are going to be able to work this out um if we were to pass it tonight and sort of give the green light to move forward. Um it doesn't sound like that's going to happen. Um and I would I would ask is there any way that we can track the usage of the ice this winter? The you know as it is as it stands I think that would >> what? >> No, I'm letting you finish. >> I just I I think that would give us some valuable information for next year if we can see how much and when it is used in it current condition. could put a camera up, but right now there's no way to check. >> Nor would Mr. Mayor, >> nor would the information be valid. >> If we have another warm winter, nobody's using the ice. >> Well, I think that would be an argument in favor of El River Hockey Association because the chiller would give us this. But that's not giving you I mean if you wanted if you wanted a a reasonable estimate of ice usage you you literally have to have it ice intact from the start of the season to the end of the season because if the ice is there it's happened before. People have asked is the ice ready and that's just a matter of they're waiting for the ice to be ready and it's it's weather dependent. So the the ice could be used a lot more than it is now um if it was available. >> It's not a scientific method, but it still tells us something. And so yeah, if it's warm out and there's big puddles out there, that would be the reason the ice isn't being used. But if it is ice and it's clear and it's frozen and it's still not being used, that would tell us something. >> Mr. Mayor, >> go ahead. >> I know that public works would prefer that we did not have the ice rink if it's going to continue on the way that it is. because they spend so much time trying to flood it and really the only people that have used it is a broom ball. By having the chiller in there, at least there would be some good ice for people to use if they wanted to. Now, I'm sure our residents go to others. >> I do have a question I guess for the council. This is this is my third time here. >> Every time I come, I'm asked to come back with a different proposal. Every time I come back, I come back with that proposal as answering your questions and it continues to morph and the goalpost moves every time. What would I need to come back with? Is it a is it a is it a a contract asking for approval? Um with full cost cuz at some point my time is valuable as is yours. But coming back here and having the goalpost constantly moved, it's tough for me to come back with answers when every time I'm I I get more answers that you want. What is the end goal that I would need to provide this council to make a vote for approval? >> I believe I can summarize that for you. >> Okay. >> So, a contract which covers both Albert Hockey and Sydney insurance is covered. No cost to the city. The Zamboni location. Um that one I think you we've got a plan. the lighting bill covered uh for the time it would be used. Um and then also putting in there the disconnect cost if it was the transformer was no longer used with the hours that we talked about 4 to 7 open on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday. I think that concept and sounds like we might need to let our council take some more time to process but I think and everything else that you have in here. Is there anything that I missed on that that would have to go back? Okay, >> Mr. Mayor, >> part of that is those specific a lot of those specific details need to be ironed out in said contract. >> How are they getting access to the recycling center >> and because yeah, it could the door a door could be left open and somebody gets in there and we've had incidences where we know what happens in when the doors are open 24 hours a day. Um, >> so then it could be written in there that it was only access current. That's what that >> No, that's just what I'm getting at is the contract. There's there's those finer details that need if if there if if other buildings, properties, areas, whatever going to be accessed. How is that going to be addressed? >> That concern could be just written in just like that only access. >> Okay. So, let's move to vote. So, we already got the the motion to table it. We got a second. Any further discussion? Hearing none, let's move to vote. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Opposed. >> Nay. >> All right. Motion has been eye. >> Table. >> Table. >> Thank you. Correction table. Okay table. So, thank you for coming in for the third time, Ryan. >> Thank you, guys. >> Okay, moving on. Uh, next one is old business for dedication of veteran funds. Mr. Mayor, >> go ahead. >> There's also a memorandum in here for me. Um I had conversation earlier this year and was asked to check back later in the fall um based on some um some things they were dealing with. But Morgo has now committed $6,000 to support the Veterans Memorial Project. Um I understand the check has been received. >> Yes. >> Okay. So in October um we'll staff will provide a resolution accepting that donation. Um at the last meeting um I had asked for some additional funds for the renovation um and where we were at with um fundraising and different changes in the project estimates. Um that all information is all here. Um we currently have a project estimate though there are some subjects uh all train fabrication has some subject uh to tariff and redesign fees. Um but we're at $51,60. Um we have received I got that Um we've received 50,124. or minus 936 close to any possible overages. Um so I would still like to request council's consideration um to allocate some additional um park dedication fees for the memorial. We we also just still have to do some landscaping. >> What was the proposed amount? >> And the last meeting I had said $10,000. Um, I left this one blank, but I would be willing to ask for $10,000. Again, any additional funds that we receive, then that would um um we would not have to take any additional funds. [snorts] >> So, Mr. Mayor, >> Council Member Angel, but last time it was $10,000 and we just received six. >> Mr. Mr. Mayor. [snorts] >> Council member Glazer. No, the 6,000 from workwell came in after our last meeting >> and that is all. Yeah, >> correct. Wouldn't that reduce that 10,000 to 4,000? >> It Yes, it could. Um, but I'd like to be able to have a buffer in there. Um, if we don't use it, we don't use it. >> So, is this for landscaping? it's landscaping any possible um tariff increases that outrain fabrication will occur. Um he Jason had said that he's been hit hard by tariffs and um this was bid out over a year ago. So his pricing has changed. He's not increased his bid at this point but there is that possibility. And I he's doing a nice donation to us um as part of the project. Um, I would not want him to incur any more additional costs than >> I I Mr. Mayor, >> I I understand not wanting to, you know, alternate fabrication to bear any more expense because they, you know, they've already done an in donation. >> Mr. Mayor, I'd like to propose. So, we just received $6,000. So, you know, the the $10,000 from the last meeting kind of turned into 16 thou a $16,000 need. Um, I I would like to propose there's an event coming up on the 21st, which is uh the the game feed, which is also the unveiling for the for the memorial and with the heritage festival that the city having a booth down there. I'd like to propose having a a fundraising thermometer with um full details uh on that thermometer as spelled out. um in the RCA that that shows, you know, uh funds that that have already been raised um and contributions by um contractors and and uh individuals and see what we can do to to raise that additional money at those two events before we make a decision. >> Mr. Mayor >> um I don't know how how um open the invitation was to the the hunt feed and fish hunt fish and feed program was um the festival um we are we my husband and I talked today and we have the white A-frame boards plastic A-frame boards so we're looking to get a a a um a piece to put on that to explain the memorial and where we are all at. So that we had talked about today and he actually went into the veterans um center on maiden um 7th in the pit today and talked to a gentleman um who actually lives in now and he said his wife could help us with that design. If not, I'll reach out to Annette at um Extreme Graphics who's done our syn graphics and things and and I will cover the cost of that, but that would be part of the educational piece of it. >> I would like to add in so at the beginning of our our memorial, we knew we were going to get $20,000 from the city. The goal was to raise the remaining costs. Council member Raymond, you've done a fantastic job of doing fundraising for this thing. I would also like to go with what council member Glazer said and not incur the city any additional cost and we target the fundraising just like we've done. Um I know that's easier said than done. Um but with the events coming up and we're at $936. Yeah, we could have some additional call costs. I think we can cover that with private donations and I would like to not have the city incur additional costs going right back to our very original goal. uh and just excellent work on fundraising. You got three huge ones in there that have have helped displace the majority of this. >> Mr. Mayor, >> Council Bra, >> is there a plan for the an expansion of memorial to include all six branches of the service? Um I understand there's plans developed now, but it seems like we're missing out on on on an entire branch of the military. Um and Yes, I understand we're putting a flag up, but it seems like um there should be some more of an explanation about or at least a plan for now than to say this is, you know, what we're planning on doing or adding on and how that would be instead of just completely ignoring an entire branch of the military. Um there was discussion during our committee meet minute our committee meetings and um committee determined that they were not going to add space for us. This was a memorial to the um members of our community that had passed away during the service. Um in order to do that I'm going to have to redesign the whole thing um and cost and it'll be additional costs. It's not necessarily you wouldn't have to necessarily redesign the whole thing and they are a branch of the military and I'm guessing that there will be um novel residents that have have um been involved in Space Force and would be veterans of set service within 10 15 20 years and I'm pretty sure that'll still be out there then. I'm also figuring that about 50 years ago when the Air Force was brand new, oh, and people and communities were were designing memorials, they went, "Oh, the Air Force is new. We don't have to include them, so we'll just do it later or not do it at all." And it it just seems that that should have at least been brought to council to say, "Here's an option that we could that that we could do." [clears throat] So it's very dis it's very disappointing that we're completely ignoring an entire branch of the the military that's actually hasn't been officially a branch except for the what the last seven eight years but has been doing work for the country for the last 40 years in some way shape or form as part of the air force. >> The proposal was brought to council you talked about >> I understand we talked about it but then just like any any project it's like oh something else got missed. I don't recall any discussion about we're not going to include Space Force when it came to council. It was never even brought up as here's an option or here's an here's a different option. >> Wasn't additional option. There was one option. That's what we need. >> Right. And that's what I'm saying. So we're going to completely >> So um not include an entire branch for military and we have no plan to fix or address or even a plan to say this is why we're not including them. >> So Mr. Mayor >> Council Red, >> I understand council member Grant's concern. If we are now going to ask uh council's now going to ask that we add space force, I will have to go back to Alterrain and get an additional bid for his for him to include the monument for the space force. >> I'm just asking for a plan >> and I'm just the plan that it was sent out earlier and I don't remember what meeting it was at. it had the five branches. >> Um, and but if I'm saying if council now wants to council chooses to go forward with the sixth branch, then I will need to have a have it rebid by Jason at Alterrain and there'll be additional costs. >> A plan doesn't have to be implemented. At least have some discussion to communicate to residents why an entire branch is being reserved. Buildings change all the time where blueprints come up and here's how we're going to here's how we're going to design it. here's where everything's going to get laid out and then something else comes up that that that plan has to be adjusted. But that just seems that it seems to me that and and it's been said over and over again that um it's the council has the final decision. So So any plans that were recommended could be changed and it just seems like it's going to be completely ignored. I understand it's going to cost more money and I'm not expecting that that we immediately redo the entire thing just to include it, but at least there should be some sort of messaging or or um wording to to explain here's our go forward that we would have that if additional funds were raised or whatever it is that that will be included. >> Are you willing to look at that? >> So, well, I can but what's going to happen then the way that it's designed is for the five branches. So if we are looking to expand it to the sixth branch, I have to shift every thing over not >> and then leave. But how do I put the sixth branch in there? >> That just can be figured out. It could be one could be added on. Who knows? There may be another one down. >> Lights coming up right behind >> there. There will be there will be three sets of light coming up behind three of the branches and then they focus on the on. >> So the request is to see if we can add that. So, well, >> if we could at least take a look and say dessert. >> Okay. >> Can we make a point? That's it. >> Except for because the electrical is in >> but I'm trying to explain. >> I've heard your explanation that it's >> the electrical is there. So, and it's and and there the space is this big. The electrical is in for the three poles. >> You don't need to explain it to me. I understand. I'm asking for a plan, not we're here. we're going to do. >> I will I will I will help and see if we can come up with an alternate plan. >> So, are you looking are you looking, Council Member Ryan, to have that sixth branch included in the final or 10 years down the road? >> Give me a plan. Give me a plan. How much is it going to cost? What could be done? You could add it on on one side in 5 years or 10 years or whatever. I'm just saying completely ignoring them other than a flag which wasn't even presented originally seems to be a disservice to a branch of our military. >> We can look at it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, we had conversations on additional funding. Is there any other conversations? Was that a motion that you made? >> I'm sorry. >> Did you make a motion about >> uh >> or was that just a >> That was No, that's discussion. Okay. Um, so, Mr. Mayor, >> I would make a motion that um we we table uh council member Rainville's request for additional uh park funds for uh for the memorial u and allow for time to take advantage of uh some additional fundraising. >> Second. >> Any further discussion hearing? None. Let's move to vote. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> Opposed. Motion carries. Okay. Moving on to the last one which is the uh authorization replacement of concrete paper fire station. Mr. Mayor. >> Go ahead. >> I make a motion to move. Go ahead. >> Oh, go ahead. I'll second for discussion. to make a motion to approve the in the proposed bids to um um have Ericson asphalt and concrete who at least from what my bif focals are reading from the what's been presented to us they are they are the low bidder to um have Ericson asphalt and concrete do the workforce in the city and >> second for discussion >> open up for discussion >> so the $11,480 option to include [clears throat] balls is that correct That's my understanding. Yeah. >> Any further discussion on that? >> Okay. Move to vote. All those in favor say I. >> I. Opposed. Motion carries. >> Mr. Mayo. >> Prior to adjourning, I just have a question on um the process we use and I know it was a little discombobulated. Um, is council willing to have a discussion at the October meeting about how we go about sending out a request for a proposal for situations such as this, um, I would suggest if if our staff is not concrete experts, um, whether public works or administration, um, that we bring in our building official who knows all the codes for concrete and can provide have um information on on our feet and so everybody's bidding on the same thing and and we are comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges. [clears throat] >> I think that could be a great discussion because it could help solidify our process. >> Miss Johnson, will you bring what our process currently is for that so we can send it along package and then we can talk about it in October council meeting. Can we add that as part of the goals >> for discussion on? >> Absolutely. We we need some more goals. That could be one of >> I was just going to say that the I believe the the spec for the the work was actually created by one of the first contractors that came out and gave us a an estimate. So I and that uh that is uh you know a low a no cost option versus you know bringing you know bringing in our um code official every time to um to create a specification for something like that. The contractors know what the code are and codes are. So but I I'm certainly open to more discussion about [clears throat] Anything else for second?