oh sming the Bandit old and of there you go thank youone else you want cheddar popcorn popcorn or regular I just had one of those SL things so I brought White Castle in today I don't know what's wrong with these people how did they not know what a White Castle slider is for goodness sake was like Natalie's like I've never had one of these before no we ate that on sale I bought theut today we want be around they got their name for a reason didn't they Natalie only understands sturns no I didn't even do that because our store only had hot dogs are we doing this on off I have it recording it's just be live oh I'm hoping out that's where our problem is I think so so I'm GNA try it this time and see so I just have it recording right to the computer instead of do it live so when you do it live and they have problems go back and take your recording and put on or just know I could maybe try that too because it just records live and it goes right onto it and then what that was it flips over that's why I always have to stay so long afterwards for finish processing so the the compu that's what we're finding in here all right started s Thursday February 1st 2024 this a work session city of now we can plance you call sure m ERS here rville here here mayor P CL Johnson here C ad second Mo by Council second by mayor the agenda in favor carries approve resolution 2024 appointment of election judges for The 2024 presidential nomination primary second motion counc Brian second Council discussion just to note that these are the the judges were appointing for presidential nominating FR night there will be additional judges recommended for the next two elections and those people those will be brought to the council at that time this is just for any other questions or comments fa Mo by saying iOS motion carries right thought we were do the first phase last NE but there stilling questions now going on to you have phas one now then Personnel policy changes first note here is updates based on attorney review which we just [Music] got CP we need to put in a maximum amount of hours yes now new D until negative pil rep all right so I'm assuming having just seen this for the first time youday the paragraph under the question Bobs response cor yes and do we have so we need to come up with recommended hours number two out on termination so you can legally responsibly limit the number ofs paid next number you would want something to go into the whole 80 hours could because that would be enough for a two week pay out if if the max is 80 your last paycheck should cover n should cover that be said put know F I just don't think in my world I would have gone that hard right you know to go backwards to your point you're exactly right yeah it's it's a it's a it's a eing game with whatever happens between when you decide to go on vacation how long one vacation and what could happen when you get back that you decide oh vacation was so wonderful I'm just going to quit and move it could happen it coulden Z righten you're right there scenarios where we want you to speak louder please [Music] so P how much time is reasonable if someone has a vacation in January 1st and then just and this only happens with people that are just caring over 40 hours and early year you Haven that much money yeah being a big deal is people who haven't been around for a while so I'm saying you left in the middle I think hand8 hours cover unless you put in the middle of perod so the question is if you roll over 40 hours that start and you're hours H so you're you're a h if you want to go to Florida a couple weeks you could borrow against what you're going to be earning right even even if you were question Mr can I something so some of the questions I got after the last meeting is clarify to me the the2 200 hours and and what was the idea behind that and I think there was some misunder understanding or or people not exactly understanding what we were trying to do there with the $200 this would be a moot point if he actually stay with the $200 carry because then we won't have any employees that be going in the negative because they' be able to carry over then two hours I think at some point in tonight we need to talk a little bit about some of the possibly some of the misund misunderstandings possibly that came out and question that have been opposed to me about the $200 carry over not carrying versus the 4 hours um that was kind of the reason that we put together some more of this information if we were to take a look or or reconsider the 200 hour carryover um that number one then would go away we W have people run in L second second on that point after the last meeting I went out and did my own research and talked to a multitude of different cities in the league and provided some documentation and go um we would be extremely out of line with what other folks are doing uh as far as carry over and night goes and I would like to engage in the conversation of could that be reconsidered and and and could we reinstate the 200 hour carry over uh to be more REM others I mean even at 200 hours we be on the low what other cities are doing he so so here's here's where we get this get this information last night I've been ever since I'm looking at a lot of couple of these tonight as as I sit at the table so if we're going to do that and then I would like to ask the questions and get this time to to think about rather Mary's not involved then we have to come up with a decision and I think this is I don't I'm looking at the sheet that we have here on other cities and and I don't know how we selected cities of 80,000 and 26,000 500 you put the message out to the group and these are the folks that responded to the question that probably call again typically and I have no idea what about last meeting we talked about we decided we did 40 hours and we that was a whole new thing from the meeting before so that's my St I if you if you have the $200 we'll give you the cash you're not to lose we'll give you the cash you bank it you do take time want to save it it Tak out the city's liability to keep carrying everybody at200 explain the liability to me because I don't understand what that is or what your you look at any P has to go on the book The you have to pay that out that's why I right now is an exposure because it's used cost the city not we don't okay so let's so that's why we said last time we'll pay it out you rather than having us continue to carry that on our books as a liability against the city but then our liability is also with oury because we're actually done punishing them well if they Rec that and now we're taking that down Tak down we're paying them out if they leave we're paying them out they have $200 when they leave pay but if they don't leave I mean that isn't that that appr and that over so aren't they banking them $200 and if they are taking that away from them isn't that punishing our employees not taking away paying in cash inste not losing still getting no they're getting if we carry over if they have $200 they can have right and we say we're going to carry over 40 whatever the number is whatever the balance of that 200 is we pay them cash not losing any we're just not carrying it on our books they're responsible to put it then why not do 200 instead of 40 I still don't understand between we have 200 or we have 40 we have 200 down that we're going down I just don't understand I don't understand the liability person I don't understand because because now you pay that down as first year because everybody s at 200 pay that down this first year and now the expectation is you're getting vacation us your vacation throughout the year we're not going do that we'll pay out so that they're they're not losing any in that first year they still get the cash so whatever 30 bucks an hour times 160 they get that cash put in any investment they want uses itation and they're going to approve again remember they're going to be appr it the long time employees are depending upon the guys that talked about if you're a newer employee you're earning 3.8 hours of paycheck so not quite a day a month yeah if you're older one if you're an long time employee or half to reild that I just don't get it get it well I'm challenged because we were talking about the attorney responses and now we're talking about we've switched into how many hours can be can be roll over well because St stat go back to2 200 hours this doesn't matter could if someone had five weeks vacation and got approv for five weeks vacation they're using vacation it would matter for our new employes right our new employees not have so it does it wouldn't matter for our 10 years it would matter for any newers depending their start date and how much they use that first year right corre in in my case I took it all in PID when I took my vacation in Hawaii when I first started you know you part time I mean I was supposed to be part time technically at that time right I wasn't earning vacation but in most place most places that hired and you know you've got something coming up you just negotiate that in and say I know I'm getting married and I'm going to take it unpaid or you have take it yeah that's usually how it's but someone didn't want to take it on P we let them go 80 hours to the negative then that's AIT them it is I think is low exposure yeah so I me I think it's leave it at we can move on we can have the next discussion hey I mean that's my it's like it's 80 hours you think your exposure worst Cas is essentially 440 so you're talking 40 at 25s is versus he somebody got HED in November February 1st they want to take 80 hour or two CR or a trip or a vacation or a l or whatever for that employ this would allow them to do it versus not be able to go until June or July vacation to P maybe that work for some peoplebody yeah when I was first married I don't think I could take two weeks exactly so I'm fine with the final answer was that a answer all right number two subject to applicable caps as noted above employes standing section 28 last to it is carry over bu whatever Le to this is where and bring another 280 on there and thanks in the policy that we had earlier on in the policy of state of 200 and then recently was crossed up and 40 hours is in there right now that's what two states right that's what we agreed on in Jan right and I didn't understand I'm that up I did not understand that I think I was thinking that was new employees and at the end I was asking if this stay the same for existing employees so and we had that long discussion said if you're going to have this multi-tiered policy it becomes a little more different that's what we said if you pay out give them cash they do it the cash but they would have so we're not holding and then the policy is consistent throughout is what we said last then weing our employ again a punishment well it is a punishment because I've worked so many years and this is what I've acrw and now you're going to take that you made pay off but then you're going to take that away from me so I don't have that continuous my husband has aced so much so now you come back and you're going to take that away these people have worked a long time for us I do think that the 200 hours should be still stay should still be there so what are they miss 280 a right it's not changing what we're paying them what we talked about last spr was taking today our policy is 200 right so you have whatever vacation you approve during the year and we allow you to carry it over up to $200 and we [Music] said that's cl$ five weeks five weeks seem like a lot to carry over so what do we think is a more reasonable amount of perod and I did we say two weeks 80 hours or 3 weeks we started at 80 and then we went to 40 with flex depending on what the situation was at the roll over time so people they say you take the take a week off at Christmas time and we get some we can that basically 80 hours car so if you have more than 80 hours of carry today the true up will 200 down to 80 so you pay 120 hours out and then every the next year if somebody tries to if somebody has 80 hours of carryover already that have to burn all of the ration or they lose it or we pay it out and and that we had resolve at that point we said the intention was you take your carryover hours whatever the food here and utilize those to get back down to whatever car so I'm just we have some our seven weeks we got be back to zero so today somebody's got Max their max out what we say is Max carryover they roll up to the end of the year do you pay them out back down to 200 or do they leave they for to work on 200 before the end the max they over so management if they don't use it right you're you're carry over 200 you have to still use [Music] 280 saying what we said last last time was instead of us carrying that over to pay cash and they just so in this scenario every year at the end of the year in a perfect would get a check for 120 say that what we saying first first the first year you first year you Tre either pay it out or you give and and where the then that's where the conversations come in so I'll just share with you from a staff perspective for what it's the idea of having first of all they started with 300 hours the long-term employees did then they were reduced down to 240 hours and now they red reduced down to2 200 hours and now we're looking at 40 hours with the discretion from the city administrator the the $200 um is almost I'll call it a safety net for the employees if somebody's employ if somebody's I use an example one of our employees their wives get injured and obviously short-term disability doesn't affect them it's the short-term disability long-term disability only for the employees if something was to happen or Someone's Child was in a car accident and they needed to have some time off there is a comfort level with having 200 hours of sick time on the books that they were able to be with their child or be with their wife or whatever it may be be able to bridge the gap until they come up with a plan that that's what they're using their $200 that's why they stay at $200 they leave it on the books I get the liability piece of it but they have it on the book so they are able to have some sort of a nest a there if something was to happen or they had an emergency inv because em now is gone they had the ability with EMD to be able to utilize that for an emergency with a family member we they no longer have the ability to do that that was replaced by the shortterm longterm and life insurance which only protects the employe [Music] so well then maybe we discuss maybe we discuss it then when we see what that looks like at that time and not now that's that was the scent that consensus of the staff when we talk about it is why the $200 because there is no there is no so now they would have five weeks to deal with an emergency in their family if they needed to okay so so under that logic if if you were given the cash you stick how how would this well the only difference is if you stay if you give them the cash and they don't have the time on the books if they're not in a paid status at the city they don't get to accumulate their benefits all that kind of stuff are affected if they're in out PID if they just took the whatever dollar amount is and they put it in the bank and they try to cover the bills while they're dealing with an emergency we're going to run into a problem with employees staying active on the payroll to be able to continue to have their deductions taken out of it and to have their medical benefits and all that stuff still continue to take on technically because what you're saying is with what you just decided they would only be able to stay into a status to up to 80 hours they would pay 80 hours so my my if you don't get to the crew you don't get to acrw if you're in a no paa status so they would not be acre the 11 hours on a paycheck if they're in a no paid status no but they can borrow up 80 hours that's what I just said so they 160 hours car over for 80 and borrow up yeah so you have four weeks or five weeks difference is plus like I said you're it 11 hours pay period keep that and and all of this is being discussed to reduced to is to take liability off the that's the whole purpose [Music] of we have a very small sta and if this is going to make a huge difference to them then I say keep the $200 because the thing is is they they care for our community we're not a huge community and the thing is is these guys work aive and they if they used to be 300 and then they were down to 250 now they're down to 200 now they're doing 40 we are taking things away from them and that's they're going to see it too when was it I don't know that was just that's where that's where it was first started Township I know it's 240 I mean that's it's 200 today I think question is do we want to get 200 down to 80 or do you think the Hills the information that I have it's going to be a challenge hiring people by by changing it to go on anymore when I see that um cities just as an example like the city of zmer can carry over40 there again this is the problem we had before this is why I don't like information you're talking happy year see what I I understand you can carry over a full year of hours but that's but Mr Mayor last meeting we did the same thing a thing was presented to us at that meeting and that was the same thing we got it at that meeting and then we voted on it and so we're we're doing the same thing now it's it's every meeting has been that way including last meeting so no but we but we voted on it too so I mean that was something that I regret now when I'm looking at everything did you have did you have the information before night the meeting yes no I would say no last last time when when you came with the readvised version of the PTO time and all that we were talking about that was different from the prior meeting and nobody got that until you presented it to us to include me before no what you presented at the last time I presented last no you presented the change to over 40 hours discuss that the new part that I I can't see going under 200 right now if people can be carrying over 200 280 240 520 challenge Hing people if you need to and I think it's going to be a Challen St I don't want any yes well then by that logic let just beat everybody on book I went and talk to the I I asked I asked that for a meeting with the staff if I but you're not authorized to go outside the coun direct deal directly with staff but but if you want to say you deal dealt with staff that's fine why can I not go ask questions and don't understand that you can we should all go in we should all sit down on the staff ask our questions and that's fine if if we think this is going to make it hard to keep the staff we have High I'm okay with it but by that logic and we should go on this out TR de sheet and beat everybody on there so we are invest but there's also a reason that you pay $1,500 in taxes on $300,000 house in those cities and you pay $1,000 in taxes on 500,000 see if if you're going to match them and match their taxes I'm okay but as it was said this is not the hill to die on you want to go with 200 200 I say but if we're gonna all go Lobby staff and rewrite the policy manual based on Lobby and staff then why do we need okay I resent saying Lobby and staff I did not go Lobby and staff there was there was a question that I had about it I asked some questions and then I was then I just said you know what if this is an issue I want to see what would staff thinks I asked him questions of them and they gave me their answers and I went thank you that was simply I didn't Lobby them I questions as a counil okay that's fine and I just wanted to know as a council member how did you also go ask taxpayers or business but you have to be careful J because today's policy is $200 I said good so our tax base per resident isn't going to change based on this policy because it's no change from what it is today so I want it's not like we're saying if we make this change people are going to pay more and taxes on their it's no different than what we're doing today so that ask is do we want to do what we're doing today and keep that or do we want to lower it and if we think from a engagement standpoint we have a handful of Staff members and the liability is low do we think the engagement outs we can liabilities and to the team members feel pretty strongly I mean I I look at it I'm like it's a lot different than my world so it's a lot but I also look at like cities some have more some have less it doesn't feel like we're totally out with what what we're saying and I would certainly say we are State LA your position but you're not P for it right no I understand that saying the state's doing something if the state's implementing their own can I ask clarifying question please did I did I hear correctly that if a council member wants to talk to anybody on staff that all Council has to be present for that conversation no that would be a call I'm just saying if you're opening it up so we can all go query to staff on things then I would expect you going to get members all and staff different things to see and if that's how you want to handle we've been very careful that that Council doesn't direct other than by policy where it's written doesn't direct staff if if you're okay with all of us going to staff and asking questions I just want to make sure we all know that so if we have individual questions regarding policy or opinions of staff that you okay with us com everybody in this room to include has called and asked for policy question has talked to staff has engaged staff in conversations have ACC us to research information for them everybody in this room has done that and so so we can I just want to be clear I'm not trying to I'm not trying to create a no I'm I just want as long as it's clear we can all go in and talk to St ask questions and and direct them to research okay this has to do with what I did not no he's saying that we have we have a council member to direct staff to do research I didn't direct staff went and asked that's all he did and said could I please ask some questions and I'm not saying it I'm just saying as long as we can all do it but I went through stot I went through and and respected his position and I just said mind and and it was fine because I wanted to see how said it's okay as long as we all can do the same thing as long as he gives us the same access to staff I don't care as long as we can all do that because we all have I don't know we all have that every coun you're thinking that not all council is come in and talk to my staff on a different topic here there and where we grew the mind was is that no council member directs staff to do any work on their behalf that need to be run through the city administrator will prioritize when we can get it if somebody who's got something they on us to research or work on will prioritize it but the work direction for the staff come from me but if we're talking about has a as a council member come in and and talk to staff I policy has every council member come in and talk we didn't that meeting that was not talked about policy it was how does it how how do you feel about some of the stuff that's being accountable in okay I'll say has the policy been voted on no okay so you're going in as a council member of something the council hasn't decided yet and getting opinions long as it's okay for all of us to go get staff opinions before we make policy decisions I'm okay with the policy that was talked about for the PO and the carryover was decided for last meeting it was Ved on so it was on the votes the overall this this hasn't been the overall we we we have not voted on phase one we have not voted on the total phase one but you guys most certainly voted on it at the last meeting about the PTO table and the carryover and that that was voted on and that's where I had questions because I realized afterwards in reading some things that it was wasn't just staff coming in but it also affected staff that was there and that's where I and that was again the discussion we had last meeting was we had talked about Grand and the discussion wasn't by me but it was like why don't we just clean it up H it out do everything the same we decided we don't want to do that so we can beat this de so we can say $200 is and you want go right now I'd say let's just leave it as it is all of us $200 here $200 and then and then I would say I guess we change the one on which is don't have that $200 Carri over which really only to be after first year after that pretty much every car so the first one on you you could technically have $200 on the books and still borrow $80 hour in six we all right so anything else [Music] oh we got the 200 hours carryover and only thing is the again we had a brand new sheet today with another recommendation on P so what we were trying to do with the PTO is we went back and pick a look at what was recommended in December I'm going to call it Jason had a lot input in the in the December meeting um then we came to the last meeting and I'm me using it but then the mayor came and he had a different version of the tables if you will and how is it approved and so on and so and then I took a look at my it's put together a version of what might help bridge some folks that are in the middle of the years to be able to do it and I used kind kind of what Cil member rainville was kind of thinking when she started this a while back talking about some of this stuff that maybe we just don't do it as weak chunks maybe we take a look at can we again of toide it up and you don't have to wait next amount of time to get to the next week if you would so in the middle of the page if that's what we're all looking at is the red one so the top one is just what we had today before we started this whole process that should that's that's the the table then the middle table is just my recommendations if we wanted to do something there there's been further discussions around peo and acrel and all that um from others there was still some confusion that came out of that meeting um what was shared with me is that there was but we sat down in January on January 99th and took a look at that um they were seeing Council was seeing that for the first time um going forward and shared with you by who by the council members that I thought to so so could the council member share the council anyway that's fine so you you've had discussion with council members and there was confusion of what we agreed on in January there was yes I I know it's anything do the people agre I think that's what tonight was designed to do was to have the conversation because in talking to the council members every council member had a different version than what they thought they heard that and some of them weren't necessarily prepared to have that discussion because they were seeing the modified PTO cruel for the first time at that last meeting which was different than the one we previously had so then when they had time to process it and take a look at it they're like oh I didn't think of that or maybe and so the whole idea was trying to get here Mr Mayor was to have that discussion to get everybody's questions answered out there because I just provided information and and and the consensus was let's get back around the table and see if we can't come up with some sort of a a solution on the side here what what I'm going to recommend then going forward is because we keep getting information at the last second because they're doing this group thing what do you think about this my my history been here my company's done this and we thrw all these numbers out and put it together and say okay we agree apparently we don't agree I'm going to ask in the future we put our numbers together and we table it until people get a chance to look at it and say oh I Now understand it and now I can vote because we voted but apparently we didn't understand very because we talk about too many numbers that we're only getting at that meeting or determin it so we have some numbers we just got you like them we can go with them um again without context I don't know we we not going four weeks we going days it looks like in this but again I'm seeing first time as we sit down here tonight and if I sound frustrated it's because lack of information becomes a group thing and then we're not quite sure what everybody just said so at least here we have something in front of us if you think this is good at least it's in writing we don't have to discuss a bunch of different if there's any question on it then we should table it take a look at it ask our questions and revisit Mr Mayor I don't disagree with that but when we taed it in December and the comment was made let's sleep on it I got zero input from anybody from the December meeting to the January 9th meeting and then when we came to the January 9th meeting we were presented the same where we're being presented here more time because this was out yesterday can we do a better job of that that up so you guys have more time to look at it fine I'm I can I can get on board exactly what you're saying but we we brought the new proposal to the January 9th meeting at the January 9th meeting it wasn't in the agenda it wasn't in the packet it wasn't presented to the city administrator or discussing the city administrator or any other council members I say the numbers in the January 9th meeting Mary's numers she put together the numbers we came up with was because we sat at the table and said Mary's got these numbers and got some numbers from other cities here we had a collect of information and we tried to make the best of it nobody had the information to told that because we had Mary's recommendations or recomendations we had Mary's research did and we had some comparables with other cities we had our numbers that we had and so we tried to say the aid that we had here jumped [Music] from and so we were capping out at 10 years and so the question was that seems a little aggressive what else could we do so it got to be a group thing if it's not this aggressive what's less aggressive and so these were considerations or concessions to say okay it's not as aggressive as we currently have it's not called we're not CT out after for 10 years and so this was a concession that nobody had because we're making it up at the need with information that you're just get and so um it would have been nice to have sometime to process your recommendation compared to what we agreed on in January sure I don't think it's that far off but as a person who processes slowly it it makes it a challenge to say I'm not quite sure what I'm agam to your point Shandy that's what we said last you weren't quite sure what you AG absolutely we want to make a decision tonight and one of our NE doesn't here so one of the options is we accept administrator lers recommend we take process and say okay got time to think about looks good here and try and evaluate so can I just add one thing to that so I'm just going to speak for myself on this and and council members if we want to share share fun but when we came to the last meeting in January 9th I will just say for myself I was under the impression since there was no more thing no more conversations with City administrator nobody asked me to run any other numbers anything different I believe at that meeting um and I think I stated at that last meeting that we were going to come and approve the December's numbers and we didn't and so I didn't have my pack of information from me and I think it was all out a little bit in that meeting that I didn't look like I was prepared when I that meeting because I didn't think it was up for more conversation I thought that that that that proposal that came out in December was what we were going to be proposing at the meeting because there was no communication with me from anybody that there was any changes or there was going to be any more versions of P coming forward so when that came forward that when you presented that mayor in the January 9th meeting I was a little off guard because I wasn't prepared for that conversation because there was no dialogue from any council members that there was going to be anything brought forward to reconsider and on top of that I just I like that we have things in front of us I like that because it was hard to be able to as we were doing that to get my mind around what we were actually voting on because I couldn't see it in in print and that was my that was the biggest thing for me I say that was a meeting December 14th closed over Christmas or maybe people about a week before Christmas to get some information that um maybe we W all processing this among were doing and what we were dealing with was various iterations of what mared know we're still processing here's what other cities are doing here's what Minneapolis does here's what the private company does and if we have recommendations it should come as a recommendation this that you gave us tonight is a recommendation this is something tangible that we can look at and say okay my only concern is I'm processing it amongst everything else we're doing that and we just went is that um actually because we're not allowed to speak I'm sorry I just was sorry that also means you can't pass notes I have no idea what you pass okay I'm sorry business meeting um and again what happens is we go from Bob's letter to kind of jumping from to to advancing vacation to now we're talking about acual detail so help me understand that how would have you prefer to see this then so it was more in line with what your expectations are then because I was under the with the work s and bring some of these things so everybody can talk about it and discuss it around the table and tried to get it out I think that's what CH was just saying we had a problem we started talking on the table and I'm like sure what we agree so yes we were told we have a pack on money I understand people have been sick um this meeting was primarily to get the election judges in because we had a deadline these other things are convenient because we have an election judge meeting to say let's put this in there too it would have been nice to have this a couple of days ahead of time to say here's what we have here's what the ended up being on January 9th however it came about here's what I would recomend and then we have a chance to say you know what that makes some sense we have a tangible in front of us we can calculate how different it is and then everybody can see what it doesn't that makes sense so if I would have got an Center this week what that usually I I I struggle with getting things at the meeting to try process comparing one to another and because this is what I got to work on last night so I'm working on this and it looks like duplicates it on ncept on 124 stepped on one n approved on 19 and 12 14 so I'm looking at charts here that don't match what you just so this is what I'm looking so now I have to change years from what did we say December what did we say January and now what are we proposing tonight how well and I think that has been the problem is that every time we' n there have been new numbers out and so when we got to last week it was more or last time I should say it was just another number but we didn't have a paper in front of us this time and so and there was a lot going on so that's difficult when every meeting we come to there we're talking about a different version which I understand we're working through it and that's what work sessions for I get that I so I understand what you're saying and well that's why we try to keep it up on the screen like okay what what was just said Put it on the screen so there was at least we didn't have a hard copy but it was okay what was just said and update everybody sees the same thing but I agree I I get very frustrated with what I call Ro when we start throwing out ideas and numbers and inevitably it start getting lat we make a decision done that's really po way to make decisions so first and foremost the more information you get ahead of time so that we can compare it say okay if this isn't B and we start changing numbers and I think to that point we should say okay we just change some numbers sett it in talk about it two weeks week and a half I so you have time to process ask questions and say this makes a lot of sense I like admin present but if we don't get it ahead of time and we start changing if we go in here we accept it as it modifi modify right and that was the problem that I was having last time because it was just I'm thinking one thing I'm seeing numbers this is the I think third things have been changed and so it's like just a lot of information and going through it but then we went ahead and voted and it was like and then it was afterwards and yeah that was my problem that I I take full responsibility of that because I voted on something that I wasn't sure of because I heard it differently and then what it was because I didn't have something right in front of me and so and yes it may have been on the screen but as it's on the screen and numbers are changing you're trying to follow that and you still still don't have anything so we didn't have time but to that point I think every council member need to be able to say my brain's full we just go through a bunch of stuff let's put it in writing get it in front of us and then talk about that your point because otherwise yeah if you don't go back and look at minutes or watch the meeting what did we just say and I went through the meeting I have to go watch it all what so so I I will say to each council member if we get to that point we start start throwing whether it's numbers or information what did we just say all the time out say can we get that in writing and bring it up again because then we can avoid that frustration on council's part on staff's part because you disagreed on something that you didn't really agree on and now the staff all upset because we do a what and the council not UniFi because we're notep right and then what half happens as our staff watches our meetings to and then they they do get upset depending especially if something affects them and just so everyone realizes so they know why I did it because I'm on the Personnel committee I do walk in care about staff and I do ask them every now and then how they're doing and so that's why I did it because I was like wow this was an effect so I like when things are like this when we're going through so many numbers and it's changing so especially with this Personnel policy it's changed and changed and changed that it's I think it's good to have and so I agree with you that we once we discuss that yeah maybe we should pay it at at certain times and I will be one to now raise my hand and say well let's take a time out so absolutely we're learning so good so I just got put FR look pretty reasonable but I'd like to look at it compare what we talking before and so I would like to table this part of it until we can Mar gets a chance to look at it we get a chance to look at it ask any questions and come back and say which of these iterations will be that so we're hold these two varations that's well I'm saying are we going to go so what we talk about January 9th and what we I would say January 9th and one we got from stock so so the two the middle one and the bottom so that we're all led up it's either the bottom box or the middle box and we're not going to have C middle box for the bottom box are two choices so basically well again having just seen the middle box I'm assuming that's a good I mean just a box C somebody has a recommendation for a box Fe mark it up send it in Scot Scott send it out please so that my my recommendation is there's not a change to one of these two that's submitted to Scot before our packet go on next we don't over so if you don't like middle or bottom you don't like middle or bottom and want to make a minor alteration are we planning on do we have enough time between February between tonight and getting the finish getting the packet ready to have if we're literally saying the next meeting that we're going to talk about this February 13th you have to have to early next pack next week be pack packets it out can I just add just com 30 seconds on that middle box all I was trying to do was is do something a little bit more on the front end you can see how I kind of split it out I didn't change the 14 plus and and I just put the 27 in there to give somebody that's here during that those time just something something to work towards and that's where I use the Mar's version of maybe we don't just go week at week so I went from 25 to 27 to 30 but I think it's pretty consistent with the bottom box which was discussed at the j meeting it just puts a few more breaks because been discussing a little bit of this with council members the conversation was maybe we can do something a little bit on the front end for new employees so they got a little bit there and then what would be the recommendation for somebody that's been here that six to 10 years and just of it really think this is matter to 10 years you're right going right now Years [Music] anyway and I think the other part that as council members we like consider for this year as it's Chang the state of Minnesota live sick and safe is these numbers were in the past what's that the iteration of if you needed time off you had yeah my my point is when you look at sick and say of hold 8 hours at someone at some other potenti company yes throw that in here people have other other companies have vacation and sa to the side and weiding that all to which is totally fine it but you just look at the numbers I look at it a little bit differently on does that make sense to push the forward pull back out you're adding that disagree with it yes difference is for those people wouldn't qualify SE time okay okay so table if you want to change table middle or bottom back is that all we're discussing regarding the Rie list all right we still have agenda we have it number five we have item number five and and I'm going to again based on our discussion we just had again I picked up my packet last night and I went right to a meeting from there and I went meetings all day today so this afternoon before I came to this meeting I was trying to go through these numbers and Scott put on this packet here for us and then we got a slight one t you guys are good you guys should be good the only thing that changed was the color to show that Scots was not had he had no merit increase only full so you guys pick up your package the n studi and picked up his pack my P right Chang your pack it's the last I pick up M and then they realiz they want to change something change all the packs I have the so I questions but this is not accurate no it's still the same the numbers are still the same I just took the blue the green off of it so anyway I would like to be able to look at those numbers I also ask Scot um because we have meets expectation hidings exceeds parly and I would I would appreciate council could see whats been and ands areas of improvement strs pass improving objectives for the coming year like to give us some perspective on on on this um one of the things that we had discussed previously was trying to move our staff into a more competitive range within the numbers that we agreed on last fall and and again I don't want to get confusing in this but we agreed to put a placeholder in the budget 3.5 for Cola 2.5 Merit inrease but the understanding that Merit increases based on the reviews and try and get our Personnel more commensurate with what we budgeted where they really are competitive I think our Public Works people are way low on the scale and and so depending on how Scotland are Dowing people I think as a council we should say if you can put Merit increases in there to reflect that and try and move them up he addressing on that and so that's why you see some inconsistencies with the merits um obviously you can you could do the calculations there I think that um some of the other things we've talked about with potential changes in Finance the way we doing finances the way we're doing the building official um potentially should reduce a fair amount of overtime but as you look at these numbers there's a lot of overtime um in some areas and the adjustment there was to try and bring Public Works up I still think we be more aggressive on public works right now we're going within our budgeted numbers um in Scots you can see he went from 10850 3 3 half% brings him up to 105 I believe it is and we get another three and a half% on Scott last year we had Scott up 5% on C up then the understand we get another 5% potentially on so if we work that in that puts him in you our the numbers here about 1107 so make up for last year's this second half P up and so we double up and C this year bring up to 110 so those are the numbers you're seeing there um obviously you can do like I did do the math and see what it comes out to an basis but what's kind of prepared here these are numbers within our projected budget that we have allocated children you also saw in the packet that we had asked how does this what does this look like when you compare it to uh current inflation rates right now F reserves pushing to get it near an annual Target of 2% they think that so far this year they they're on target for that but based on last quarter of last year they were like 3.4% and so I think at 3.5 about the a reasonable number along with Merit increases we just people's base pay I think we need to be aggressive in our coming budget to better on that right now we take the 6% increases that we agreed on the last summer and I think this is a pretty reasonable proposal um like I say I'd like to see the vi with it but I think you good numbers FL since everybody looking at this notely new and not voting on it tonight I would like to say look at it ask your questions and then this will be on the agenda you please explain to me what you mean by um placeholder and if you choose to distribute them when we do the budgets we don't know in the summer of 23 what 24 so we've always tried to remind people that this is a placeholder in a budget the col increase is a placeholder we project might be with so last year we put that might be what a good number based on how the account we're we're going to be six months out when you're actually addressed this so the economy took a real strong and inflation's down below the Federal Reserve Target 2% you're going to see a lot of people getting three now you might take that money ter increases because you think other other things move up but when we when we do that similar to we might put a placeholder in there for truck and take a look at our Capital those are estimate targets we're buying a truck in two or three years right now we think that Tru cost based on the last two years it's going to be up here and now we're starting to see truck price is com so put a placeholder we might put $400,000 Tru buy it might be20 we don't have to go spend 400,000 so it's not it's something we've always tried to remind people budgeting Cy this is not a guaranteed 3 and half% raise next year this is the placeholders Maybe going to have to be least that but we don't think it's going to be but if the economy completely changes around it may be that three and a half is okay um if we have ecy left and as far as you can you can see on here there's his yeah I do see that so I just my other question though is um ums and then I wanted to know while you're thinking about it just ask question to verify so correctly that you provide performance evaluations to the whole Council so the council can go with can be determined if I did a good enough job of doing the performance evaluation and that you're an agreement with my ratings and what I'm projecting for next I'm just curious on no why would the council want performance maybe that's okay I have no idea how we're I don't know what formula criteria using and as we talked about before the objective in performance you is identify the strengths identify Improvement and that set some objective goals for the kind so just bringing us into that Loop because we have no idea what temp we're using or how we're evaluating so you want to copy of my blank performance evaluation form so you can see what I'm doing or are you looking to look at verbage and and and what I put down and then have the right to challenge my review that I put on that I'm not looking to challenge I would like to see what it was but I'm not going to challenge the overall the whole review I did what the Yeah it's the uh not to challeng let's just see how it is personally think that was something we messed up with what kind of feedback they been getting in anything but the understanding is we've done the reviews we've had the meeting with people no I stopped there because I wasn't sure what we were going to approve they have not the reviews are done and I stopped at giving them to the employee because if any of these Cola was going to change because part of the review is this is what their Cola is this is what their mer increases this is what the new all the rate is going to be and since that wasn't approved I did not have the they're all done they're typed up they're recommendations but I stopped short of providing it to the employee because I didn't want to give them what I thought was their review and their increase and they come back not and not I thought you said they all be done by the end of the month yeah so if you sit down with the reviews and they push back and say I think I did better than and you say here's going to be my recommendation and they P back and you say you know what I agree with it you you might want to change with numbers so I assume that you'd already had that people were content with they knew they got whatever so I will say this everybody on staff knows where I am but I have not had the official said down they know where we're at on the dollars but I didn't do that Mr Mayor because I didn't want to have to go and provide something to an employee and then all of a sudden have to take it back I think that is wrong way of doing it that's why I stop once I got the reviews done and I put them into my spreadsheet I have them with me tonight for anybody that wants to take a look at them but that's where I sto because I didn't want to go and then have to come back no I mean this alone you know this is already public document and the understanding is we we targeted 3 and a half and 2 and A2 and you stay within that so that's not question and so if you decided within that these are the recommendations that you would make based on reviews the only thing that I assume that you actually had those discussion it's not going to change that you're going to write what you wrote and you're going to have that discussion we're not going to change it just would be nice to know as city employees what is what's that look their review may not change and I'm not going to get any push back from my employees I know well enough that they their R but what would be subject to change is the dollar LS if the council did approve them and that is part of their performance evaluation is how much is my co at the end at the end of the performance evaluation calls off it calls off increases new hourly wages who did the r and so so and again so I said and half on two and half on no that's what you did so we want to change well when I read documents and say it isn't a given it's a placeholder to me that tells me there subject possibly to change upon coun approving if I would have known when I came to the January 9th meeting with the resolution stating I'm looking for authorization to spend 3 and a half% on Cola and 2 and a half% on the Merit increase if that would have been approved at the January 9th meeting that would have no no issue whatsoever given them the performance valuation when I said I'll have performance use done by the end of January I meant I'll have them ped up have the sheet done but until somebody said go with the dollars I did not go so I go tomorrow that's say the budgets again this year we'll say here's our placeholder for next year sure and and what you did here is you went you looked at criteria it says inflation at 2023 and was 3.4 uh that reserves Tri so you gave some appication to say why that placeholder make sense that's what we discussed before saying we don't think we're far off at 3.5 based on what the economy is doing right now so you would have been fine with me giving them all their performance evaluations and use these what I'm hearing again because I don't know how to do that in in my world do the performance evaluations and this set you say here's here's your performance it's not tied to cost of living because I'm making the the argument the cost of living that they budgeted 3.5 and I can justify 3.5 so that's separate from the now if you're saying based on on performance it affects the Merit and that's why we separate that we say we can go back to um C and my recommendation was we back pay the to January 1 the Merit after they actually did a review and they understand why they incre so that's where I'm confused because last year when we did the cola increases um I was authorized to spend x amount of dollars on Cola and then adjusted as I saw fit so then when I did the review I was able to put it put it in there this is the first time that we're dealing with the increase on top of that so then maybe I need to modify the performance evaluation that doesn't have the cola and raise and all that kind of stuff in there in the world I come from which sounds like it's different than you is I don't know why I would want to have to sit down and have two reviews with somebody necessarily I do the performance evaluation their rating this is your days this is any feed that you have an area here you can put down in in here's your your your Cola here's your um Merit increase and it's all one conversation um I can certainly do it anyway you guys see pit if you want to make it too I'm just trying to be more efficient than not but to go back to the cola from last year if it's 3.5% in there to put it right on there we couldn't because last year it was 5% and not everybody got 5% and I needed to get approval depending upon what their rating was on who was going to swing which way and and again last year was it was you need because generally when you do a cola it's across the right and and again my world the only thing that changes that it might change from a line worker to senior sure sometimes senior gets less because typically it's across the board last year was unusual because we we were trying to correct efficiencies and so instead of just uniformally giving everybody 5% you were authorized to say I can tweak this over here we never had disc there until Bo brought out this right so that's the first time we've ever talked about previously it was Cola and you you decided your discussion last year it would make sense to my my total Cola is this I'm going to get a little more here and a little less there we're okay this year the assumption is across the board those qualified for get and then the Merit because we separated different numbers of that that was based on and because we still trying to make [Music] up look like T right so but I don't I don't think it necessitates a second just by the way put a note and check and came in this so what do you be very clear what do you want me to provide you when it comes to the performance evaluations and everybody getting the same thing and do you want me to put it on paper so we have reviews floating around on emails or do you want me to bring it how do you want me to move forward time I'm hearing that you guys want to see the review but what what does that look like because seems like sometimes I miss the mark on the expectations in the past the the council has has seen staff close the meeting we have a discussion we take a look get okay that that way the whole Council and say looks great keep up good work I'd like to waigh on this process okay we're not going to weigh in on the evaluation necessarily pass that has at least weigh in on the process and okay I understand how because again this is a learning process this is we hav't the success so so haven't heard well I'm trying to understand so just so I understand so we're looking at the blank review of what he how he goes about his review process or we're looking at the reviews after he has done discuss process ask any questions at that point SC have another question as far as um do you look at and this is just for my own um do you look at what wages are in similar cities uh so to the to the extent I do um but I think one the next piece after this is and I wasn't going to bring it up tonight but I will sense the acid I think uh part of the notes I took from the last meeting was is we won't have a wage study done before this one but maybe at some point we consider doing a w study and kind of slotting everybody and see I think the the term was are we 95 are we 100 110% what does that window look like when we compare job write ups and job titles and all that kinds so um I'm not prepared right now or even this cycle if you will but I think if that's the will of the council that they want to have some sort of w study done as staff we can look into that and and start that wall rolling on that if you want well and this you had stated you that with our with our public work staff um you had made a comment that you want to get them up and so I was just curious on on what we just were I think the mayor just knows in his head from all the years of the experience that that he he looks at those numbers and say I'm not sure I'm G to get [Music] aaz not going to get a public work supervisor um for that wage in the world we live in today well maybe he does some studies of his own I'm not might have been we've done studies in the P say responsibility responsibil sometimes we go and say what's Public Works director in we don't have we don't have water we don't all these things they have don't have so we try and say like cities like responsibilities and how does that compare but as I'm looking I go to a lot of meetings between local government officials I talk to a lot of people County um other Mayors Le you start looking at at what people are doing to retain or attract people and what used to be a reasonable AG isn't and so if you ever think somebody's going to retire win a lottery need to be replaced for whatever reason and your way down here and the Comm starting here so i' rather not have that big jump start Ming up now formal stud will tell us what it actually is I'm going off my my informal conversation and we do it internally on S as his part we put on deal and we get information back from other cities but some of the issues is their St sometimesi smash I think the no city were H is is one of those things that you know was treat Francis they got water a lot but the one thing I say with that get some those cities and is you do then have also individual people that are responsible for each part of where we here in now even cities who we multitude different W will have job respons yeah and so you can say this packet plus this so yes well I have a question then one more question so what you're saying Mr Mayor is we are going to table this we're going to discuss this again and going to get the reviews and we look at them also what I want to then ask with this is because it looks like these numbers are based when I'm looking at Scot's wage I'm wondering we're not at that so that is based on his review I'm assuming so where so can I speak to that for a second oh sure okay if you guys would P the sheet out real quick I'm going to give you the real High version because not going to have an opportunity to explain to you before we get on camera at the next c meeting kind of and I'll do it very quick and I did it for the mayor today just a little bit um so I know I can do it fairly quickly so when you take a look I'm going to just go through real quick so when you take a look at the first person indiv the first individual on the top I don't want to use Public Works you're going to see that his increase everybody got their marit until I get down early so so this individual got their Merit that's where the the cola excuse me the cola and that's the dollar Mon and then I wanted to under the proposed 24 get them to a certain number so that's when you see the 3.9% increase and and why that one is lower you all know that that individual we're talking about we had something that we had to deal with over the summer and he's fully aware of it we talked about it but I needed to take that into consideration when I'm taking a look at his overall U compensation and his overall rating so if you take a look at it rating there um okay and so then I would go uh so you can go through all the individuals that way and this is where I was trying to get to you can see some of the uh percentages in there and the ratings um so the Merit increase you guys see in the RCA what the total Merit increase is so I won't call that out but you see what the total Merit WEA the Set Side okay what I took a look at and I'll talk about myself right there is and the mayor alluded to it last year um if you take what the cola was that was slotted for me for last year and you take three and a half% cola which is everybody's slotted this year wait I'm trying to catch up so just give me a second so last year Scott got a Col okay 5% so that took him to 10850 okay and we have talked about the review period of time in which we could increase that okay choice so we didn't do that so we take 10150 and we put a 3 and a half% on this year okay are we doing that with or without a review is what doing that without okay and and so um that puts in 10541 why does it say 110 because we're g go back and say that the view we didn't get last year we're going to put another col on top of that and that takes in from 1054 110 we making up that so the the key to that and I may did a good job explaining the reason how I put the sheet together is that if the council would be secl to be able to entertain that idea to get to your city administrator to that number the the 11691 that would only be using Cola from last year that he referred to and for this year that Merit increase that that $1,870 a merit that was set as side from staff your city administrator would not be utilizing any of them I would consider this a fair compromise and then those dollar amounts that were set aside for the Merit were totally used for all the staff and and that's what I did on the spreadsheet so if you were to approve the spreadsheet as it is with all the dollar loes to include myself we were within the budget that was budgeted for actually it didn't even use all the Merit there's still some Merit left on the table um different okay so um but that would so that would be all the budgeted numbers and the Merit would be used for my staff and not for myself and we just go to get me that number and I think we would be good if that makes sense and I just wanted to lay that out there I understand my thought process when I was doing this so if I don't have another opportunity to talk to you before we get to the November 13 or excuse me the February 13th meeting we don't have to have all this be don't necessarily yeah yeah we would be and I'd probably be without a whole lot of police probably no thank you thank you for explain I know mayor explained it and I was just I wasn't following so thank you for explaining him everything's within the budget other questions like I said the ideas new information I think it's pretty straight forward process and the only thing you need for me there is to bring performance valuations for the February 13th meeting I'll put in the packet but discuss there you're considering closing meeting so we can that and do it before after anything else I come with it got my whole formulas I got everything d can I ask question so are you guys do you just look at the reviews it's not going to be a packet of information that you take home you just you close it I mean he has them right here you could look at them you sign off on you sign what what is the process we did it very very different CL and just confus what the process no we we were Tak I don't know the same process last year this year we at least have some understanding of how it's functions and and what would be the discussion that meting curs back change show us what okay but everybody will get a copy so do you want me to so you're okay with me from now till then to sit down to give them the reviews reviews from other companies where they said here's a review and then several weeks later it's so if that's something that we need to clarify like a procedure going forward then probably do that far here's get laid out well I think that's part here a more robust process as it is here's a twe counil gets okay we hav and just like everything else it's a matter of timeing are done at State and then we want to to get everything done by this state we have to figure out how to get everything the lineup we can get it so the one thing I'll make comment on May said here is maybe we done we're kind of learning here the process it works but one of one of the things just so you are all over to is is most cities aren't I haven't come across any other City to be honest with you and in the research that I've been doing talking other city administrat that that do it this way typically if the money's in the budget the administrator does a review the review gets done coun Council gets notified that these are these reviews are completed and these are the overall ratings and and that so if so the way we're doing it you guys want to have info you want to see what the reviews look like all that kind of stuff that's fine it does make it a little different but just be aware that that what we're doing here in the city of Now isn't the norm cities I'm glad do that's fa I just I'm not saying it's long or anything and I'm not complaining I'm just saying it's different goofy [Music] stuff my big S is just like what is the what is the Bas process so and then beond that once we have this is the process we use this is what we have this is our process go is it more bring us two or three Bs and exceeds bring us two or three bolts does not meat and it's the action plan and you know the team typically has a good enough feel for fruit because it's very small and yeah that makes sense the seeds or Superior whatever against and it does not need or needs Improvement it's like y I see that keep us so I agree I don't need to five bullets like I think it's great that we understand what is the process that we're using are we all comfortable with that we haven't been through a ton I think just right from the past we probably been pretty black on reviews in some years what that process was so we we think we have good process experance to what that review looks like and what goals are and people aware of them have feedback and give us some bullets on why is a or C right anything else one comment in one of our previous meetings that this group who came and passed out postcards Integrity as presentation and this week um like to come presentation to council meeting coun willing record presentation neor things make presentation not a mandatory thing but encourage Council to sit in on it we would have to make decisions as to their request requested resolutions that dos and books doing this so um okay with that work with Scott to that before okay that that being said I'd like to apologize for not we weren't allowed to speak or anything late