ALG to the flag the United States of America and to the Republic which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for [Music] all now this time we'll have the r call all right you go names here commissioner be here commissioner Carlson commissioner pea here commissioner jensson here commissioner Perell not present commissioner Lewis call and not going to make it mayor Pon pres H Stockman Pres your city administrator is also present the call is completed sir okay the next thing on the agenda is we're going to approve or me tonight's meeting agenda October 24th 2023 do we have a motion I would like to add an item tonight you like what add an item to the agenda go ahead um i' I'd like to uh open the discussion to talk about the um interim use permit that was approved at the last meeting for 7411 181st Avenue I had some questions on that okay can we Mr chair here can we make that item three it what item three third item put it before thewi treatment system before the discussion okay the seage treatment to call okay do we have a motion to with this amendment to it I move to approve with the amendment okay second second second for the discussion see none all the papers you have motion car okay the next thing we going to approve or amend meeting minutes of August 22nd 2023 you have a motion this I shall move second second commission hippler second it any discussion C none say I I here is okay the first public hearing the first public hearing is Mr chair yes um we have September minutes also to did I skip over that yes I'm thank you okay uh also approve the the me me meeting minutes of September 26 2023 do somebody like to make that motion I know Mr B made a motion second second second further discussion see none I I Mr chair yes just a clarification on the on the agenda is item two still active because the public hearing had already been noticed we need to open it and take any public comment and then we can either continue it to the next meeting or we can close the public hearing just take to that and finally best to continue agree okay we've open the first uh public meeting public hearing is for the McKenzie Hil primary plat the numberers 2033 d25 21-6 to consider the approval of a three lot single family residential subdivision located south of Bar Lake with access from England Boulevard okay at this same [Music] uh the planner what the planner present what she has for the report okay thank you Mr chair um and also just to verify I have I was the one that sent all the mailings and put the add in paper okay so all all the ads were been all notices were done yes so the Gus and family is proposed with three lot preliminary flat called McKenzie Hills on their land their 35 acre pie of land located off Boulevard um they're also requesting a conditional use permit foral of Street caving requirements and we'll talk about that a little more later lots range in size from 6.83 acres to 1676 Acres poos Shar driveway plan until such time as the public streets built to City standards and accepted by the city that's part what the CP for the Fur Street ping allows when the applicants are dedicating right away here's a location map showing uh the land uh and being out here on the east side they're planning a 66t RightWay to Future Street within which they would maintain private driveway for three lot at the present time first house to be built on lot one in the north west corner and then a second lot north of this Wetland and black sou of the proposed Street this 66 ft will in the long term become an extension of 2th Avenue will go all the way from now Boulevard over to Tiger Street the pl includes um this map is showing buildable areas and the proposed septic sites two septic sites for each lot uh they are required to construct three small storm ponds given the amount of impious surface area that's planed based on the long driveways and proposed hard services with subis construction of single family hes this drawing is showing the required Wetland buffer that has to be platted and drainage easement around both Wetlands again showing the three small PS and um we show the buildable area the one acre contiguous area uh they still need to do a little bit of work on the 23,000 ft required that has um separation they either have to bring in fill to show the requ Separation on the grading plan um or as an alternative the city engineer has stated that they may monitor the site with Pomers to determine um there any model soil or danger to you know basements in buildings this is way up on a hill back here on the North side so he's questioning um the model soil and the separation and this is a classic case where the use of pomet would be beneficial so they will have to uh create a turnaround at the end of the call and then there would be a sign there indicating that this would eventually be extended uh this is just a table showing the modeling between 1.2 ft and 2.7 ft so they need to amend their grading plan to have a 3ot separation on part of these 2,000 Fe fre to these three sites so that has been made a condition of approval um along with the other minor engineering requirements the appli have read and have agreed to findings as they are written they are not in attendance tonight but I did speak with them about the report and findings as direct without allowing questions or comments Mr chair yes sir um there's a question because I just haven't seen this before here under per dedication requirements it says we're going to charge it for one I just haven't seen it before maybe the spe well because they have they started out with two lots Mr we usually give them credit if you want to call it that for two existing Lots so they're really just adding one lot in the end I mean different cities do it differently but a while back that's kind of what we agreed on was what we agreed on Council to proceed in that manner and then as future Lots areed them they will owe additional in the future we've done this before we have done that thank you Mr chair yes sir what's the uh reason for theot number one on thewest SC the setbacks are so large from [Music] the they not any greater than any other setbacks what are you see it looks like it's far from the Western Norther oh no that's the that's that's the build bu yeah that's the one acre of continuous okay the buildable area is is where they're wanting to build well that's yeah they have to prove they have one foot of Separation across an A or more and then they have to that 23,000 ft fre for the separation so and those black that'ss are the soil Bings which they typically do around the buildable area and the plant setic locations so yeah they would have the traditional setb 120 ft from the center line of this RightWay and then 20t side yards and 35t rear yards they do have a well with dra eement they have to be outside of gr that'll be established they're not planning to get real close to okay so they could build further north and west but they choosing to pick this area yeah we won't have to Bringing fill probably if want West yeah that doesn't mean that you have to build with in that area necessarily but if somebody comes along with a different planing and even regardless of what plan or where they want to located they have to have showing the engineer and I that it works with drainage throughout [Music] the so if you recall the conversation from when AUST brought the conet plan um they're likely going to plan some sort of a shared driveway e western side here that comes up along the back and accesses both of these homes but the requirement was here see that they still have the necessary Frontage to have a private driveway um in the future if they were wanted to do so or were required to do you see that on the road plan they have that driveway showing south side of what North East theying the build they'll have to prepare um an easement doent showing the exact location and description of any shared driveway easement and that gets recorded So that um the easement over lot one is for the benefit of lot two so that if that were ever sold outside the family you know there couldn't be any arguments about that there will probably be a lot of ARG over to maintenance when you get non family members now then spent a great deal of money getting rid of these types of in the past years the shared driveways shared driveways and what do you call owned roads not City roads we spend a lot of money getting rid of them and I talked to some of the people that participated in that and they worked for years to get rid of it and they just do not work they had many lawsuits over them and it's just a always a problem so keep that under your in your mind with this whole deal because uh I don't think it's a good deal because we have enough problems getting our roads took care of the way it is we don't have any legal aspects to to overcome so but we we spent a lot of money in quite a number of years to get rid of it so do as you want but that's that's what it's just not a good de is a deed restriction enough there's a there's an a whole development that goes along with this um and the RightWay is dedicated to the city as was not always done in the past now granted um somebody has to Bear the burden of this in the future and that's where the problem lies for the most part and now who's going to who's going to pay for the tar of that when it actually gets down to it right that's it's going to have to be you know because every down one of them guys in there ain't going to want to pay for that because you know we like things you know nice T roads but when we get right down to it and you got to Fork up them dollars you know it's a big difference you look at the squawk we had on the 185th in Jasper they wanted to assess us on every lot that we could create in the future not the ones that we we had houses on but the every lot in the future okay we bed on that and you can't do that that's illegal you can't you can't assess a lot that ain't a lot because in other words I had at that point I think I had um just 40 acres there at that time and they wanted to assess me for eight Lots rather than one lot okay that would have been about 50 some th000 that's a big assessment to pay for a road that should have been paid for by the city because the county give us money to do that with but our city fathers at that time decided to on some equipment just a clarification the township yep you want to see yeah you want to see but it's still got the same effect so it's it's going to get developed with a cuac the the as they build on these three lots it'll be a temporary C act right no they don't this is what theal use permit is for is theer C they have to build this base on subase like go the east side right long term they're not allowed to split any Lots further until the start City standards and accepted by the city so what's the cus act part of it well so they're required to have a turnaround for emergeny vehicles so when would we require them to connect to 250 well that's all that's only um triggered by other subdivisions neighbors sub providing their own land but I mean the rest of 205th exists up to that well the edge of the property right now doesn't it oh it's not that far okay I see it comes up to bouard and it comes up to right okay yeah so there is still land over there yeah I got it okay there's land on the east and west right okay yep that makes sense Mr chair yes mayor so just just to clarify what Herold was saying is right now there's three Parcels on here as long as the gust within their family develop the three parsels this is basically a big drive up we turn around for emergency vehicles at the end but we don't maintain it as a city and people live on have if one of those lots subdivides two of them could one of them could they subdivide and put a fourth on there then somebody those people are living on there would be assessed for a road coming back and that's where it becomes the problem if you're you're developing a lot say these three lots developed as family family themselves to somebody else and a forth totally unrelated comes in and builds another house and have to go back remind these people 20 years ago that fourth house came in that's that's a little different story ontic whatever happened to the rule that when you sold 20 acres that there were no plotting had to be done that's a state War that's been done was done down 180 Ward sold off 20 acres to the east side and they sold another 20 acres off of it then we never even seen it here all them have been sold so but what happens to to that state law has that been changed I don't understand what you're saying here well I tell you you should because you don't have to plot it if it's over 20 acres it's state law right but if you're splitting a piece off that's smaller than 20 then you do have to go yeah but if you just split 20 no so now what is the size of those on elastical property those are all smaller than 20 no no one this side of the road there East Side huh the ones that we done before the ones on the first plot that's on the east side on the east side but on I'm talking on the other side on the west side great he's got a 10 and two fives over there on the corner that's what he we going where's where's the rest of the ground going he's got outlock planned for future subdivision but it doesn't show that on on the map we we've been given um well you really haven't officially been given anything because I mean I guess it was in the package it was a 40 acre piece and he's doing a 10 and two fives and the rest are outlets and or a road somewhere to this one you wouldn't you wouldn't have to have an outlot you could just leave that alone what whatever it is that's going to be a big parcel that's left 20 more than 20 but see they did that so they didn't have to extend the RightWay all the way to the border of the 40 acres is not short about halfway across but my theory is when you go back to that 20 acre rule where it specifies that if you're over 20 you don't plot it don't have to unless you want to divide it because we've did that several times in now then not B somewhere along the line something ain't lining up here if all your doing a splitting of 40 in half you're right all you need is a survey y but apparently here I don't know why they're doing that may be why what they're going back and looking at is why what they're going to do there they could do something a little different and probably come up with the same result yeah they have a lot of options though in terms of because apparently they they want to create a bunch of smaller Lots on what's left over well exactly and in order to do that yeah we need to start of the street to go through there we have well then then then you have to do that but that ain't what we're we're lacking information is what we're lacking right now but I do know that you do not have to to uh plot it when it's 20 and old because when 185 was hard veter said that everybody had to sign their overed it and it was a plotted lot well I had right right at 40 acres and I said I don't have to do that he says oh yes you do and I talked to the attorney and the attorney says tell them to go take flly cut he says it's absolutely wrong and so we went down there and we had that hearing with we had the stupid engineer from Hinson and Anderson and and Randy and them and and we took the engineer in there and they said we're going to take your license and we're going to take your bond but the whole thing turned around and we were able to just pay for one lot that you lived on like you're were supposed to that was it they couldn't do that because that was illegal game that's what it was well let's get refocused here because all the Lots in the gson subdivision are less than 20 acres yeah that that it would be on that but just the principle of it itself of everybody trying to get a along plow on that ton road and Grading that road and keeping it gravel is going to be a real headache so there you are right yeah I mean I I completely agree although I would think if any of those were to be sold outside the family and there was a simple shared driveway it's hard to hide right it's it's not like someone buying a house next to a property that's going to be industrial they're driving in on a shared driveway and they're going to be asking the question come sitting there with a a big heavy truck maybe the cement truck or something you know cares the road up yep you know boy I'm going to you know I mean I can just hear him talking you know and and but I do know that they they put a real effort to get rid of all of those and now because of the fact of the problems that they had had with them and there was one over on the Town Line over here that mares was involved in big time so so what you would recommend is nip it in the bud you got to put individual driveways in you might as well do it right the first place and be done with it yeah you know I mean spend your money uh and get it done because it all comes back to the taxpayer eventually otherwise is what it's going to do it's that's that's a it's going to be a tough piece to hold the road in all areas back there I think but I I try I don't know how many of you went back there and looked at it but it it it's a beautiful place probably but it's still you know it needs to be done right it's what it amounts to We're just trying to get away with what what shouldn't be you see we we we shouldn't be doing that because uh it ends up costing you in the end well now see we got a a big assessment coming do on over on the other Corner over there W so but that's just a good example you know we kind of did things on the cheap in the first and now we got caught so Liz if if if we had a recommendation or or or put in a requirement to have individual driveways would that then just be considered a private road to where the driveways well you could you couldn't do that back there more driveways there ain't room for more than one world in some places well if they're bringing the 205th yeah you know to turn around or whatever and brought the driveways off of that yes that's what they're doing so all individual though yes okay all individual it's just the main but then it's just a private road that main road is a private road yes main a people but if you get if you get it open from both sides which you're going to have with me you're going to have tra to there but there'd be more development to the West it could be and it could not be that's the only way you would get the road going through I would think yeah I mean it but it it's a tough deal I mean uh it's not a good good situation but at that point if if the if the land and they don't own the land to the West correct so if that land develops and 205 goes through at that point they would have to pave 205 would um no that does not trigger Paving the only thing that triggers Paving invest in subdivision is subdivision of an additional lot or the city chooses to move forward and P option that be in the conditional use permit that's already going to be in the development agement that's part of the past situation Mr chair just a question back to Mar's point so these three don't develop anymore developers AG here if there's a fourth lot then they pay it but people to the West decide they're going to develop and connect to this temporary C act who's responsible for this section 2050 G is in Lots in there but people West know you got food yeah that's a problem but the partial to the West also buts tiger so they can come from that also they would be required to hook up to this wrer way and um you know if this provision still exists at that time and they only have three lefts see to get to use this deferral requirement they can only have a maximum of three BLS so if somebody splitting a full 40 then they have to start the street so theoretically from Tiger to Edgar whatever it is you could have 25 be be dirt partially and partially dirt part from that CAC West right where you paid from CAC East do but theoretically to the West they could develop without pton right no no okay only if they used the same provision assuming it were available at the time and that the council approved it but I mean it it's unusual um yeah this isn't typically done but part of the challenge here in now then is even with splitting a full 40 with just eight Lots is difficult for people who make it work financially unless you were gifted this or was a family parcel from long ago because just buying it out right now and then trying to split it you don't want to make any money so that's the challenge yes so if what I'm hearing here if that goes through and it goes to the West at some point could that be turned back to City then to plow and maintain and all that anything good Stu it's city right away we're basically allowing them to use it and maintain it in the interim we would not accept it unless they constructed it to City standards and we accepted it or we go in and pay it andess but the way it sits now the plan the way it sit it's now it's a private road and the city doesn't have but if it became a through road then that could be [Music] untable could be two shared driveways hitting each other well we wouldn't allow right well that's way it could be though it could if it's all one family it's got a better CH to survive it but the second one of those people gets another job or has a reason to move someplace and that can happen this day and age pretty easily you know that that happened a similar thing when parad went through the farm field to 189 Town board had the opportunity at that time to have the developer from all the way out 189 Blacktop through to and they shows not to stopped at the corner there [Music] rightest actually came first R and you're aware what that joint is like they taking gravel to the black top and so you got black top gravel black top and that's what you if it's developed more than three lots to in other words this this would have to go to the lawyer and the lawyer would have to write it no there's a required shared driveway means agreement as part of this subdivision we can open up to the public too he has Brandon Eber 9157 Burns Park I I hadn't plan on speaking on this public hearing but just hearing your discussion it brings up a question so lots one and two are up in the upper portion right uhhuh and are you talking about one share driveway for Lots woman too um so this main this is a shared driveway basically for all three lots and then each lot has the ability to have its own driveway but because these two lots are going to be owned by father and son they in the interim they are going they already have a path or an access that comes around the north side here that they're going to share in the Eng but long term if these two owners do not want to share them the other can have IND direct access so is the interum shared de restricted or that one that's not created deed restricted the three lots are deed restricted it's not the access that's de restricted that that comes to herold's point is if you have two connected to one share driveway and one of those two cells that shared driveway is going to be a squabbling point besides the future 20050 they're required to have an agreement anybody in the town can share a driveway as long as they have legal lot of the you should get rid of those right um what he was talking about mostly was the where the strips of land that weren't owned by the city that wer wasn't official right away I kind of took perfect thank you have two separate driveway agreements you'd have more than that you'd have what free would you no well all three people would sign one agreement the share and maintenance of the future 205 avue and then Lots one and two the shows could have now I have a question G way down at the end where he got those buildings there her parents got bu in place there too right yeah further on yeah for the to the north yeah yeah and so uh you they already have access they already have illegal access but they they still have to use the same shair driveway Ro no well how' they get in cuz when I drove up there you'd have to go buy the mobilion to get back in where they had their house no there's another another C track in there it comes from the north from the north this the this part that exists has nothing to do with this yeah if they choose to connect it they could connect the two driveways after all is said and done but right now you know does does that come through um that horse farm or does it come off of tiger no comes off of Engen they only get in from Engen and they all come down the same driveway up there there more people too yes they do yeah but there there's a good case right there now they might be getting up in the ear see right there you know and when you start getting old everything falls apart to so yeah I believe Mr Guston said that his daughter was going to live in the where he either his home or the grandparents home yeah it says something about five HS there we read that we're talking about three but well there is three there's potential for additional subdivisions for for another two HS yeah these two I mean based on Acres you could have seven but I don't think they'll get seven now some right see Lawrence isn't around anymore he's dead he could he could make that 15 he had no problem moving the water because the water was supposed to go out of go south out of there he made to go north DNR said he couldn't do that well legally we can't we can't we can't stop them from Bo this great well the ordinance allows the fur of caving under certain conditions that were outlined in your report and they' made application for that and they have followed those guidelines as a r and so legally we we can't stop this no not for this application and are we just approving the conditional use permit at this time or the whole sub no the request excuse me is for the preliminary plat and the [Music] C and then they have to come back later with the final CL with then the then the shared driver agreements and the development agreement would come back for your review to council level final claps usually don't come back through planning unless they change to a significant extent that required time okay we understand there's still a lot of things they could hire some special people come in do some about the water level is below that 3ot yeah the Peters that was just a recommendation it could also bring in fill and and change the grading plan appropriately um those are all made conditions of approval so those things need to be addressed um and reviewed Again by the engineer okay so there's not really much we can do about this uh that that road that shared gravey they're going to put in there do they have to make improvements on that that is pretty nurdle it no it has to meet base and subbase requirements so it's they're they have to build it wi okay CU they're asking for they're given a 66t easement for the city there right that's being gave to the city and not given this part of the development and and so they got to bring the dway up to that standard because I passed somebody on that road that was up there b you f it's good thing we driving slow but it's not that white no if you drove into their existing Drive driveway that is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this you drove in on the existing driveway this proposed road is not there yet oh it's not what would they drive in or that you drove in on the driveways to the existing homes that are further north okay okay yeah okay pretty pretty hard to tell what you was driving on De well no I like I me seriously you know and so that's the driveway I we drove in on is not going to be there anymore no incorrect that driveway stays the way it is to the two existing homes back there they'll use that the special rul is just going to be put in for these uh use this three New Lots yes where you drove in like four mail boxes there yep do you remember were here number of months ago yeah one of those the driveway to the right as you come in goes to that new house right the other two go back up to good rich and Jus Andes that's completely separate those stay just as they are this is only when you come down angr right at that sharp curve Woods there that's where this R comes oh okay okay I misunderstood I thought that was a dryway that's completely s that's the same owners right now but that's not part of this request for development so those will stay as they are and so and that's just those are private drives not that's going to be hard maintain the new road plus a driveway Gus's going to have to do both of them there they have pay to do yeah I I know he has the equipment so they have to maintain both those roads there yes and and if I understand correctly if they go to a fourth lot in that area if any one of those split that triggers finishing the road doing everything okay right then they have to build the road we won't allow another split on these three Parcels without construction on the road right okay and if they keep it all within the family they can probably fig that same question L at you sell somebody outside the family then you all got to chi in for this road right well how does that work down by you J is there three three people in that driveway across the road from you I should have put in a call the and I'll come off the call put in three driveway yeah you got three driveway there know out to deliveries there lots of questions back there well I can see if they're going to put is completely New Road in I I can understand that I thought it was driver was P back there now and if there's going to be the legal documents put in there I I think before we do anything we need a a good layout of what that that whole thing is going to look like when it's done right now that should be drawn up they do yeah they have construction plans just like you would we should be able to look at that and see what exactly what they're getting into there because you got half of the picture you ain't getting getting the whole whole scool are you talking M Jenson about what's going to happen West and East of here or are you talking about how the driveways construct how the whole thing's going to look when it gets done and what what what they've got figured out right now that should all be down on that paper so we can see it it's it needs City's base and subbase requirements yeah but we just yeah it it it it just uh kind of baffles you because you drive in there you got a whole different view of it after you drove in there no it's because uh you're back for 100 years you know that's what belongs to this is just aary plat right you mean there'll be a final coming in it doesn't come through you but they have to make meet Bas and sub base requirements that are just like any other Road 24t top eot shoulders witches do they have to build it before the houses start uh they can start one home without it and then um but has to be yeah you won't get a final C certificate yeah the one home can start as if it were a single lot has a single uh building permit could be issued SE on that one house continued down the road yeah per B being prepared yes and yeah the official access being so they can have a temporary access coming in from the north to access the building site if they chose to and then yeah long before the [Music] right [Music] yes I'll ask again anybody on the floor wants to make any more comments for this I guess all all I can say is you guys should talk louder because that camera H system willes not pick up your quiet do we have more questions here on the mining and Zoning see none will close the public hearing then public hearing is closed and now we'll Acton it here's our 19 recommendations goes along with USA and recommendations now we make a recommendation just as I was asking it to begin with so the engineering issues that are mentioned in the report where do they stand and what needs to be so those are conditions of approval and the engineers opinion and M they weren't significant enough to necessarily hold this up but they have to be addressed before final CL comes so we don't Shane and I the engineer don't think this is going to change any configuration of block lines it's just a matter of providing either an updated grading plan um or monitoring with these Pomers to so Shane get W or have justification aving any of the death out of soil numbers but all the the engineers report is always Incorporated within the findings so any approval includes those conditions and I have repeated most of them within conditions are there any we'd like to add to this funding and recommendations it's not covered here do we have to include anything that um basically talks about any development to the west and connecting the road understand at that point or no because that's already contained in the subdivision that's always a requirement yeah okay [Music] Mr chair yes item 17 what was there's a question about additional scening or Landscaping I don't think needs to be [Music] any I just wanted to be sure yeah under the conditional use perate review criteria you have the option of asking for additional screening if you think there's any negative impact on neighbors but in my opinion the lots are you know quite large and from the road you can't see yeah they're kind of hidden back there what about that I'm not clear just being charg charging for one one lot because they're coming up with three lots right but they had two to begin with there's two existing Lots there yes there's two existing lots and so there's really one new lot according to the way the city council wanted us to consider the the park dedication they get credit for two existing Lots because okay and some cities don't do it that way some CI would say that all three lots are New Lots because they were reconfigured but when we went over this before with city council that's how I agreed to do it okay then have any other questions here from the not I think we ready for the motion yes mayor it's on the engine page five item four says zoning reviews be completed by the city planning provided separate cover no that's the plan right there were not any outstanding zoning issues you know lot with lot death Frontage on the future Street all those things were performance with the zoning orance any other questions I'd move to uh approve the preliminary plat and the conditional use permit um without any additional screening and Landscaping on item 7 17 but with all the other requirements I recommendations yep okay do we have a second for this second H second all B say I you v no you voted against or for neither three VES understand four V okay U let's to go to the city council then and uh there's a lot of work that's got to be done before they get approved that say [Music] c what we'll do now we'll open our second public hearing second public hearing has to do with the pastur three lot primary PL we're going to open the public hearing take public comments and continue the hearing to November 28 2022 meeting number 083 25411 and we're going to open it up here does anybody have any comments to make about this on the floor wants to make any comments for this L development up here they want more time figure out what cost are going to be on things discussion at all I think I don't think we can make any kind of decision to see actually what they're going to end up doing it's just okay what we'll do then we'll we'll close the public hearing and what we're going to do is make a motion to uh continue itair no 2th yes your motion we need to continue to a date time and spot specific November 28th time and location location would be here at 7 7:00 correct I'll make the motion to like second second any discussion see none vote on all in favor say I I Thanksgiving fall in that huh before yeah this is Tuesday afternoon yeah that M those motion Carri now we'll go to the third thing that Mr be brought up have one more well we did this one and then there was an amended agenda that was three so oh y okay um yeah I guess I you know so I don't know if everyone watched the the uh council meeting the previous council meeting but on the um interim use permit that that we approved uh for the I guess U on 181st there um when it got to the council um it it he had already started kind of backpedaling that he couldn't you know snow's coming he wouldn't be able to get stuff off on time and was already requesting more time to meet the conditions that we set which was the fencing they didn't want to pay for the fencing anymore or she didn't he didn't offer to he didn't want to do the fencing and basically said he couldn't get stuff off by November 15th which by that time he was supposed to have an auction complete um and and I think it's a good idea with especially with things like this to to have kind of a closed loop thing where it comes back and and we see what happened um and so I have a couple things that that I wanted to bring up one was um so we treated that and this might be splitting years we treated that as an extended home occupation um and and I I guess I went back and I was looking cuz I was trying to understand why we couldn't deny um which would have been my preference but to me it seems like that would have been bit better under exterior Storage storage of vehicles boats recreational vehicles or other such items not belonging to the property owners for monetary purposes constituents or constitute I can't say constitutes thank you a storage lot and and that seems like that was that would be more of a fitting [Music] um use so this was um 114-116 exterior storage under rural um residential and and to me that seems like it fits better than extended home occupation well cuz she had a lease right he was paying her or he is paying her correct but because it's not commercial commercially zoned right it has to be home extended occupation or nothing okay so in order to conduct any business including a storage lot it has to have a extended home occupation so a regular home occupation is conducted within the home like a hair stylist or something where you wouldn't notice anything going on outside right and anything that involves your pole shed or any storage outside then that requires the extended so um right uh we had an extensive conversation City attorney and his legal opinion was that we needed to allow it based on the way the ordinance was currently written um I did not necessarily agree with that um nor did some other staff members but um so you will likely see some talk about amending that in the near future yeah well actually until it could be right you're right because there was aous discussion with the attorney his opinion was as we proceeded with that get the moratorium repl so wasn't pop up everywhere right that citer if you take a look at the extended home occupation this is set up for somebody the Opera their home right but somewhere back in 2013 a clause got put in there for leasing to other people what appears to be indoor storage not open storage on a lot well and that's why I mean I from what I could tell for 11416 exterior storage I thought that's under rural residential and and that would then be considered a storage lot um cuz I mean I know it's not a commercial lot but I guess that was my understand is this covered all districts but well the whole premise was is that yeah he doesn't live there and he doesn't own the property right and that's how we like to control right but but basically you have an owner storing things for monetary purposes right for someone else and that requires the permit right that's what that's say yeah yeah and that was actually put in there way prior to 2013 that's been there in there um longer than I've been here because there were a couple older cups that allow that leasing of space um but we can deny an interim or conditional use permit if there's considered I mean I think the wording is um if there is effect of the proposed use upon health safety morals General welf of occupants of surrounding lands and I mean it's not really morals but I mean it is it is affecting the surrounding lands negatively and I mean so and and I understand she was the one applying for the inter imuse permit and she had because she is a homeowner but it it did bother me that we're approving something for a person who is not a resident and we are affecting our residents with that decision and and I felt like we had because they did that um you know they because they didn't do it properly because they moved everything there initially then asked for permission I felt like that also negated any reason that we had to approve it I I felt like we could have denied that but the lawyer or recommended denial yeah but the lawyer says we couldn't deny it yeah he says that for a couple reasons one being that it's the regulations specifically allow for theing of space written um so so if we make some changes hopefully we have something so right now there's a moratorium on it so we have a process where we can go through and change this and get it wrot right so we'll never happen again so the the other thing which I'm I was confident of that night is that we are going to have to take action to get that stuff removed because it will be there until we take it out of there so what what's our action now and what do we have to do well I guess on a positive note I spoke to the adjacent land owner today and he has seen some activity over there okay in moving things around and um I heard that he does have an auction schedule rid of some of the vehicles that are inoperable and that he cannot store there under the agreement right um whether he meets the November 15th deadline is yet to be seen yeah right but whe whether we start it now or I mean we can't really do anything until yeah we only 3 weeks until November um I can tell you with certainty that even had we started the code enforcement process um when all when we became aware of it that stuff would still be there because we have time parameters we have to allow him the opportunity to remove these things so they very well may have been there over the winter anyway so um at this point right we hope for the best and maybe will comp and if not we have you know come may you know we have some work to do I I you know I respect you sharing your thoughts again and clarifying this it was a difficult case but I just had a feeling that you know as soon as he got to the council changes would be requested that everything was fine the night we approved it but all of a sudden we want to change all our everything we agreed to and and um I appreciate that the council approved it as is and did not allow the you know not doing the fence and obviously that's going to hopefully push him to get stuff out of there but well he didn't show up to the council meeting I notice that he didn't have to she's stuck with it yeah it it's a bad situation and I have to agree with commissioner me be I didn't like to S it the way we're send it but the lawyer stepped in and said the way our it's wrote It's not wrote right so now is our chance you get get to take care of and get care of right I didn't realize it was that bad it was in bad shape cuz we had it we dealt with that just over here by Jeff they had outside storage there we made clean up it wasn't it wasn't brought to our attention that kind ordinance way well his request was for interior storage [Music] yeah actually he had the interior appr when I started doing the out door and thenum since he had right yes that was somebody was actually living there what CAU us is is 11-43 B three is that Clause leasing in space to another person or firm requires inter use permit and must be obtained by the property [Music] own that's what okay because it starts out home shall be carried on by for an extended home occupation um by one or more members of property own family right so those conflict because you got a lease agreement with somebody who doesn't live there who's not related and yet the number one criter that's what we are it says we got to live there you got to be part of the family these are the conditions but for some reason we can lease space to another person and in saying that the assumption is it's in a building something right because that makes a little more sense because it's not impacting your neighbors nobody thought about storage a lot technically that's what this is when it's on Pro residential and it's on lease as an extent home occation now that proper is stuck for cost right start yeah maybe we should go on because it's going to be dealt with in the next that moratorium is for years well it needs to come to this group to get this changed quickly yes and we can take the moratorium off once we get the language um one I mean I guess one other question and this is probably more for the attorney but if if someone it seems like if someone violates our ordinances it's perfectly acceptable to ask for forgiveness and apply for a permit after the fact without any consequences that that you still have all your rights and everything even though you went ahead and did something that violated the ordinances and and you know ignorances an excuse right I mean you can't use ignorance so you can't just say well I thought it was fine well actually you can happens all the time okay well I know I've used that just now this um it would be no different that if it were strictly a code enforcement case or they're asking for some type of permit but generally speaking as long as they are working with us they're correcting the issue are willing to correct the issue we to work with them instead being hard so uh it's yeah it's a little disheartening I agree I just yeah but generally you know we want to be amenable to you know I agree with that when it comes to Residents I I have a hard time when it's someone who lives 20 mi away and is taking in my opinion advantage of resent in part though in part it was the property owner's yes fault right yeah she told him some correct incorrect information that is correct she wrongly assumed that was allow what she thought she thought her property yeah let's let's go on we just yes but I appreciate the conversation the commissioner's point that's why it's critical the point of the commission is to dig that out here before recommendations are made and if we catch something like that where there is an inconsistency of ordinances you're looking through these things bring it up so we can address it before like you may be seeing something else as you look through this for another reason but this commission's job is to get the facts out make sure they're consistent with the ordinance you know don't take anybody's word for it until you push here for it so your point it's we're looking at it now and and realistically we do that night 15 was I likely be down by the 15 what can do so feel free to push back that's the purpose of this committee to make sure you guys have done it like again like harol did tonight we got a question on the road push here so we get an answer don't just assume yeah that everything you you've been told is is is it's all there is and just shut to just an encouragement for this group this is the place to push in question okay thank you uh we're we're go to our next item on the agenda then discussion continues sub B treatment system ordinance in gen system ordinance pertaining to maintenance and general update to reflect the Mina 78 rule so we'll turn over to our planner sure so as you know gone through this before I've refined the text based on previous meetings and input from the subject system inspector so the items highlighted in yellow have been updated uh the ordinance number changed because we had some others approved in the meantime so we're now ordinance 23- on page two we were just defining uh clarifying some things by new definitions uh what's what a lot or parcel definition um and then mid siiz subservice sewage treatment system MST there's basically small medium large systems residential systems being Smalls um so that was a clarification let me know as we go if you have any questions or other comments but otherwise I'm going to just Target in [Music] on the highlighted yellow areas so all Lots at the bottom of page three have a minimum of two soil treatment sites uh each with a minimum of 5,000 ft each for a primary in back site it can be larger if being necessary based on you know number of bedrooms or anything else related to the design uh number four on page four uh subsurface treatment system accessory buildings are handled like any other building they either need to connect to the main sewage treatment system for the principal structure or they need to have their own type one system P five um question on that previous one on four okay um and I thought I read it last time what I'm reading this um was there anything in the size of the accessory buildings is it um no because I mean is that because it's addressed on the sizing the the type one system is sized to the the bathroom and the kitchen water right so the size of the building is not really relevant that's not relevant in the res okay unless you know they did have a home business with you know employes or something us but generally speaking would not be [Music] issu um so page five let me at the bottom of page four there's there's four required inspection when the systems are going in when they scarify the ground for both systems installation rocking pip installation of rers inspection pipes and then after the system is covered fin then item e any other inspections or reinspection as being necessary then at the top of page five we agreed last time to change uh a minimum two days two working days notice prior to an inspection uh but the installers have to call head or inspection time um bottom page five uh for nonresidential uses any addition or Expansion change in type of business operation addition of employees um not like Etc in there um or I'll say change in type of business operation or addition of employees um Minnesota statute 781 right gu on SI for other establishments so other establishments is a broad category when you're looking at 780 rul and that's what the designers and the inspectors look at for sizing so it can [Music] be uh basically it's just ch that tells you what you have to strike Etc and add a more for addition yeah or addition of employees and then let's to say pursuant to Minnesota statutes does that sound okay another comment okay yeah in the definition section um if we should add the definition of the these two system types refer to so often what do you mean type one oh I it's referred to all over in here but it's not funny yeah we certainly could I mean all these go back to the model ordinance 780 rules which are statute but we certainly could Define those if yeah I think that's a good idea cuz it doesn't send them anywhere else kind of if it's commonly used in probably good to have a definition included so it's easier understandance okay well knowing that there's a lot of detail um I don't know that we'd be able to run through the tighter the definition area too maybe it could say refer to this right area of the 78 rule for more definitions okay sounds good let's see so page five okay top of page six when parcel having an existing system under go development subdivision configuration or split any parel with an existing home or SE system that is being subdivided in other words reduced or increased in size must maintain two SSS sites encompassing the minimum of 5000 ft each for the existing lot and each new soil work is required to identify separate sites un must identified previously of the city this requires a minimum of three borings for each separate site so if the lot was part of a sub where they previously identified subject sites and that site was still valid um then that would count if the existing system is compliant after having been inspected by a license subject system inspector or qualified inspector employed by the city said site may be counted as the primary site one of the two required ssts sites and would satisfy the soil work for that site for under under B should there be a timeline if if they were tested and identified 20 years previously I mean can you do you just assume they're still good um you do unless it's been let's say it was a parking area and it was compacted something a red so we would look at the you know sort situation to in that is that covered somewhere I mean it say soil work is required to identify septic sites unless identified previously and documented with the city so I [Music] mean system is failed that have like you said not a system so this is talking about just the site right it's just a site that they designated previously I mean some people are want to use that site for a pole and they may have to locate another site right um or yeah this area was became somebody's driveway then that would be very um maybe you can say you know I mean does that make sense or do you just assume I mean no I think there's there's so many what ifs but I think maybe you could add um you know just kind of qu by [Music] requiring all these years primary and [Music] secondary yeah they [Music] developed got [Music] second years right yeah I'm just saying is there a time period you say you know what you got to go do borings again cuz it's been too long you know there's development to the you know West and now the drainage is different and the land that used to be good might not be good anymore I I don't know I might be getting wrapped around the axle on something that doesn't [Music] matter um I think we should just add a clause say um it's open to riew by yeah let's just [Music] put just put SE and water yeah because that would least if something came to so let's see so item D if the existing system is non comped than 2 5000 be containing the existing form as well as un does all that make sense [Music] okay Small Change on page [Music] 7 A system that is not protective of ground water does not have requireed of Separation but is not considered threat so some of our older [Music] systems ground water but it's not consider there's probably quite a few of those that don't have Bottoms in t but if they're functioning like they're supposed to be it's not a problem until you sell your home until you sell and then the bank will follow your but there's a great deal of them because you the first house I built I dug it in the Shel and I went down eat eat last about 30 years it's pretty good I'm in for yeah but I did all over the show and I put two tanks in took about a half a day to put a tank can but you dig it down and put the ring down and then keep put blocks up and it wouldn't have failed but a concrete ready mix truck fell in it go where it was supposed to it tells you what can do if you want to do it okay so now we're on page eight number take [Music] maintenance so it is state law that owners of The Seer tanks shall regularly but not less frequently than every 3 years have the system pumped by a licensed pumper and provide a copy of the pumping permit to the city if the system is pumped measurement of the accumulations of sludge and stum is not needed alternatively a property owner may have the accumulation accumulations of stum in sludge measured by a LIC system pumper or maintenance contractor and provide the measurements documentation of the city SE system expected for review so there's a um table and the 780 rows have to be in compliance um with regard to the maximum permitted accumulation of solids um if there's too much I mean could still be required to P um and if you choose to have someone just come out and check that that inspection has only been for a year so by the time do insap is number two kind of tied to Minnesota law or is I mean is there I i' I've looked at some others I didn't see any I guess uh anything that said you could have it measured I don't know if that's no that was part of 780 okay um as an alternative so and then the as was the war this was not really any harm having now I mean at least it there people option right some people might be able to do it themselves if yeah get liced if you got a if you got a two person house right yeah you might get away with it for a year or two and might yeah I wonder what the cost difference is be a lot less than getting trouble someone doesn't want some Drive yeah okay um so I was trying to lay out on page nine a compliance section for what our process um is going to look like when we send a reminder postcards on May 1st of every year to remind those um haven't PED in the last 3 years to do so um the septic system inspector asked to add a section that if any property owner fails to file it required pumping of compliance reports every 3 years for files incomplete reports the zoning administrator shall proceed as follows with XX number of days um within so many days of the reminder postcard being sent so in other words how long do we want to give people um after we send the reminder postcard uh before we have to send them a code enforcement letter with a with B basically a second reminder um and you know starting that process now having said that for anyone that's watching this is this is a new process that the city council need to consider and um Define how this is going to work and you know whether they're going to have sort of a trial year where we we give um leeway to having this done or kind of get people used to the process before we started on the code enforcement um does 90 days seem reasonable July a so I would recommend since this is new we give it to staff first because May 1st for once we're putting a DAT what if it's a Saturday or Sunday we actually mailing these things out on May 1st um how are you going to how are you going to do this we have so you get this post card sometime after the May 1st dayline sent it out and then people have to respond to scheduling this and getting it done if they haven't done it and then we have to track that and then if they didn't respond then you have to give them so much time to respond and start sending up letters I know what difficulty we have right now with the number of complaints we get we're sending this out to, 1500 households or in portion there and have done this in Period of Time how we going to keep up with that if we say we're going to do it we should be able to back it up so I would I would recommend that staff look at this first and say what we can do make your recommendation because we're going we're going to impose something you're going to impose something here as a recommendation of councel and Council and that's what we got backwards in the all staff tring here how to do what we just told them we have to do instead of saying this is reasonable yeah I think that's a good idea the other thing you should think about is that you should be sending them out and probably from DEC member through uh 1st of May because a lot of those covers are well fro or might have dirt over them and you know if they you got to dig it off and it's froze it's going to be a project that's probably why May 1st was kind of thrown out right yeah right how how's that work we have ours pumped over three year 3 years in sometime probably in September so he's going to send me a notice out May I prob September that's if you do it regularly you won't even get a no well yeah we we've been doing this regularly we won't get a notice we haven't got ever got a notice nobody's getting notice now nobody's getting we we we just automatically do it every 3 years but I was talking to LS and he thinks it's ridiculous I do that every 3 years you don't think it's necessary but if you don't have a policy in place people won't do it and there are probably people right now has bumped those in years true St um it's a state law and the law is not 3 years is that yeah I think it is 3 years or annual inspection so they saying there were some homes where septic systems built for a much larger family and people that were doing this every 3 years kept freezing up in the winter time because there only two people in a six P home finally somebody said quit pumping your system go with the inspection because you're draining this you have no heat coming in your system that's why mine when first put mine first year Min froze up uh Leo did it down here but he forgot to put put an insulation on top of the pipes that under by driveways and stuff so I had to dig everything up for them 4 in of insulation they have no problems with freezing up now that's good yeah so the people that are pumping regular regularly are likely not going to get them but um as we start this we may want to just send a third of the household letters to start yeah Define in detail what our plan is for managing this and we likely have to be some sort of electronic um you know system to keep track of all this so I guess I'll ask the administrator is there an idea of a process that is that something that needs to be investigated a little bit on what is there something that can automate that is there paper system so there's no system in place that I'm aware of right now there' be have to be something that would be created and I think there's it's going to be front end heavy if we haven't been sending these up in a while um I'm not going to say it be paper but it would be some sort of a electronic mechanism where we can keep track them right or how many were sent out how many we get back and then you know you certainly going to have to have some sort of documentation before you start do we know how the permits are recorded now for when people are getting them pumped cuz you got to get per now yeah we do we do have okay the permit scan them into the property files right now okay they're not recorded it's not on scrip sheet or sort of database the the concern is it's compliance we start right down to the we got we sent out the postcards in the first may have to determine when to remind the postcards that there's another activity for staff and we initiate administrative enforcement and so tracking every 30 days and finding people every two weeks it's might be a challenge for some like said somebody might not even know where tank is right they don't have the r back fles um but I'm looking at these citations every 14 days 30-day notices one two citations every 14 days two or three sending out the building official I'm just saying that I want to make sure that if we're doing what we're setting up to do here can MH because what we said become probably should 14 days you should probably set it up over 6 months so that you don't overload your Pumpers either so if you set up so many each month not only that the person doing it wouldn't be bought down just to a DE particular item one part of the Year it' be a lot easier for the office to manage it if they had divide up our total amount of homes or 1,500 roughly and divide that probably by about 5 months because you probably wouldn't want to send any too money after about October you know because if you have a little trouble getting that guy interested in it you got a month or so give on that end of it got to think about that too so so if we assume if we assume uh or Dale is the uh U exception and people will only do it when they get a postcard I mean I I think we assume there's a lot of people that that pump them on a regular basis you know okay but there's a lot of them that don't pump them right you know so and that that's a figure that probably we will be able to track a little better knowledge when you start sending out mes yeah I'm just thinking are we signing up for sending out 1,400 you know uh well it'd be 500 every year probably for a while you know once you get on the cavage but it almost seems like people are going to get used to almost like getting your tabs for your car where I'm not going to get a pump till I get a letter you one one of the other problems has been is a lot of the Pumpers that went up about three times Rice High yeah yeah they're way high but they well now was talking guys down the road here of course we out here Farmers just love to Sledge on fields so you can multiple day right they said in the day now they have to St well no they can they can do them Fields now they get a license my Pumper sprech it up around County that's iic County but but they they have a license to do it yeah most of down here you take the hostes they're down here a lot both of them everything goes up there and they put on fields up there they they own a lot of land so that's why they rent land too but they have to get permits to do it yeah so for for that section I mean I I think it'd be a good idea to have have staff come up with a process and a recommendation back to the commission to review and what would make sense yeah it's not going to overwhelm them well we did talk about getting the base data in there and determining how many people are in compliance and how many aren't and then you know there are free programs out there we can use um and there is also using building permit program that we the only reason that the compliance section here on page n is set up the way it is is because I mirror the current um enforcement process that we have sure to be consistent um it might be the easiest but you know the the reminder postcard is is the reminder we don't need to send two reminders you know um we give them 60 90 days to do it and then you know I guess we can move the next step but I don't think it's a situation where we're going to want to keep sending station after citation after citation right there has to be a an end to you know the compliance like number five you either you know have it done you send somebody out for it or whatever I mean um I I just think it makes sense to have St do that cuz they're going to get calls yeah and I know how compliance systems working like that since every city has to do this you think there some other cities you can check what they do I had a hard time finding that I I did do some searching St LW well some counties handle it other counties is not the problem is most cities AR done setic right that's what I found as anything that had any kind of rural cities yeah and and most of them didn't even address it so I had a hard time finding cities in our size that had addressed it in their code yeah I spoke in depth to the city of Columbus and they just recently started this process that g over there was very very helpful and she think that would be good resource for us because they're of a similar size and they also have a lot of systems they have electronic system and Pardon Me Do they have electronic system for yes they they started um process to everything's in the system you probably could sort them by the most big ones since I those exactly right other ones might disappear before you get to them they just to be a little bit late that [Music] yearend that's maybe you can send the notice that some so many months overdue year overdue the load take the worst Cas on the St yeah send setic would be overload too and it's only fair to notify the Pumpers that we're changing what what process we have a registry of all the pumers we get a lot of repeat ppers you know but we can certainly get a list of people offer to put them on the website they can advertise help get compliance to for well that's one thing Columbus did was they waved the pumping fees for first year to try to get people toly dat who picks up are right now pick up the TR no they don't the Pumpers don't pay the city the people still have to pay the pumper but the bumper has to Bumper has to come in and buy the permit from the city for like 10 bucks a piece or whatever pumper save $10 maybe they pass but I think her's got a point there you're going to send it out me and you say you got 30 days 60 days bumpers aren't going to be able to handle all that no you can't have to many although we do have quite a few that right around here not of them are all good so Mr chair yes I I think that maybe the appropriate way to handle this if you guys are in agreement is is let us take it back let Liz and I kind of talk about it let me assess things at the staff I want to take a look at this electronic you know website or whatever it is that Liz is talking about I agree with what you're talking about there we need to kind of have it Stager and let us put together a process that we think that staff can can handle let me get my head a little bit more around with some of the things Liz is talking about and then uh the whole idea of putting a list of Pumpers on the website I would just caution us to do that uh for the simple fact that once you start you know putting information out there and say somebody has a bad interaction with one of our ppers or something like that they'd be like City why do you have them on there why you recommend to that person in my past years of working in business and all that kind of stuff it was never a good business rule to be able to recommend anybody um necessarily now some if we wanted to put together a list that maybe we can ask these are folks that we are you know maybe we know that are in the area or something like that I would recommend you call two or three of them kind of deal then maybe you can limit your liability but if we were going to promote it on a website or something like that I'd be a little nervous that a resident could come back to us and say Hey you know you put them on the website and this guy did X Y and Z and why why would you know if someone's Vis I think we just want to be a little cautious with that and they all have different phes too yeah you got to shop own yeah so that would be my recommendation for what it's wor that yeah that's the same reason I don't recommend surve or anybody else um yeah I think that's a great plan um you can take a look at that free system see how it might compare you know use one build permanent system on and got those addresses in so okay so that's page n that just a reference change on page 10 relative to um system here placement um if you can move ahead to page [Music] 12 there's a discussion here about we currently do not have a wetland setback from the under Wetland to a set tank or treatment area the Spector recommended 50 ft um I personally think that's too extreme unless it's being AR protected you know higher quality Wetland um I think with all the small Wetlands kind of in and around all these Lots it's going to be a challenge I have seen or known about several systems that were basically right up to that land Edge you know I mean a setback like 10 or 20 ft is more reasonable I think than 50t setback um and as long as um like I said maybe this 50 is applicable to DNR protected Waters versus um just small Wetlands that are know there are eight types of wetlands um probably three at least three or four of which are smaller they don't P water out we put 10 ft and then unless otherwise regulated by [Music] DNR yeah I think somewhere between 10 and 20 ft um for your typical Wetland maybe 50 ft to be be honest with you the the reason that they have those large setbacks is that we have a hard band layer down below the soil uh and the water if it's dry and we have a lot of rain the water will flow on top of that hard pan to the lowest point wherever it may be and it's a challenge at some point because you could have 50t on one and the next one you might get by to 20 ft depending on what what's below it there see and you don't know that what's around that and that's what where that comes in now I have a lake across the road from me we call it Smith Lake because it had different problems over the years that will fill out and then later on it will drain down on the top of that hard pan and a flood right behind my barn in there the water will come out there just vicious till it gets that soaked up when it gets soaked up it goes right through it and it takes quite if you had a real dry fall the next spring the water won't go down for quite a while so now then it's kind of a case of its own you know it's totally different because um that's why you go into ramsy there is no hard p it's just all sand we're now 40 ft you'll still big sand it's kind of a really a catch all thing how you handle that can be proper Mr chair yes so that's part of the reason why just about every system and now that is a mod system because you're creating that separation you're bringing in the sand the effluent to filter down through that before it gets back down to the native soil so the higher the mound the less um you know quality soil is basically underneath um yeah but your M does the same thing water drains down through the M right but see it filters through there by the whole premises is that by the time it gets to the native soil it's filtered through there and you know clean you want to follow that the theory was Liz was evaporation realistically that's why the water is so close to the top of that that we're going to try to evaporate as much of that as we can out of there it will spread out from when them pipe where them pipes go and that's what how that works right so it doesn't soak into they don't want it soaking into the ground they don't want they want to evaporated as much as they can out of that and whether it always works I'm not sure of that but that's that's a very and which is why they require certain type of sand and they're very picky about the color yep yeah every everybody's got their sand PL back there and and a gopher's love isn't that the truth okay well uh so is 50 ft okay for the higher quality wet l DNR type protection and then you want go 10 or I mean 10 is no is that is that considered what one that will hold water most of the year or it's none of the Year yes DNR are are predominant you know permanent pools yes could 50 ft make it impossible to place they could build a mountain near that in that 50 ft it seems like be reasonable still yeah and sometimes see the the down slope can go into the setback it's just the rock B and the pipe have to be have to me that set there so there is a little we we've had a couple centers in that and have junkyards in their yards and the water actually has run down the brick brick is starts right out here ball field meanders down to there and in the spring you'll see oil come down to GP and then I C is put a rope over in different kind and they collect the oil that comes on there that came out of some of those jumps one of them is one that now then fail crust I'm surprised the state doesn't have guidelines so this is whatever we said yeah well I think okay I mean I guess if they have something I'd go with whatever they were it 50 seems that actually been tested that it's oil or petroleum CU iron bacteria creates the same rainbow effect yep us oil see we have a lot of iron here too he's talking about 100 [Music] cars could be could be both how many years that [Music] been let's just say it's a small process well do you want to be more more conservative and go with the 50 and see how it goes be I mean what this why why don't you divide it up a little bit go 40 ft and you give everybody a little bit there and you know 40 ft's a good distance refering to the DNR Wetlands all all do them all do them all and then one rule and you know what I mean we spread it out okay and if if we don't like it we can always change that to I I think that's a good starting point you think there was a cluse in here too that we on the next page set back reduction we don't want to have people making variance requests exactly yeah we don't want them [Music] to conditions constuction alter system building official Z administr administr [Music] VAR that doesn't no we have [Music] wet [Music] you're going to have a bigger number on Wetlands allow to variate the situation all without coming in for a request I mean they can put they can put a you know system 10 ft from a lock line and 10 ft from a building but yeah 50 ft from the w these older small [Music] lots a little more information he done that right above that the experimental systems insect there's no such thing as an experimental alternative system is proper 47 and 22 [Music] now [Music] I don't know you know CLA like that in the previous existing [Music] ordinance I think it was a it was a that's the modeling issue and it was relative to the land use argument there too but under the regulations there are noer Al the Clause said it they shall not be allowed unless the city council prefer just not having it yeah yeah [Music] um so does it make sense if number one there if uming setback reduction is written agreement from adjacent makes sense if staff finds it manageable just let's say go 5 to theot line in order to avoid um you know long VAR so you're saying number one there that the written agreement you you would go to 5T but not zero I mean yeah it doesn't specify exactly but it says um very property reduction well actually have in that scenario probably would not even allow [Music] it be the down notar um but there are lots that don't have e course get permission from the EAS owner to that no we just allting because the whole premise of the sideline lobes is for Access you know back so you could say it except where utility easements exist so you do it for L lines building set back except for where utility easements or other easements [Music] exist you could add something like no less yeah you know can't Mr chair may this is this is where I find in the past as a council we' started taking decisions to just be done with things so we're saying in this we could do some things I'm looking at one two three more pages of a l yell on it's 10 afterno to keep going tonight start start fresh next month yeah cuz what happens as you get here is kind whatever whatever it gets pretty loose and start agreeing to things and when we come back last what did we de I would just when it gets late just hard to make your decisions I agree um one last comment whatever yeah had a property Le who happens to be um license SE system installer contact me and wanted to voice um the opinion that they vly oppose owner installations uh for numerous reasons they they're okay with the way we first had it written on page [Music] we initially had it in here that oh we limited homeowner installation to a type one gravity trench systems and then at the last meeting some of the commissioners felt strongly that home own should be allowed to construct any type of system including pressurized M or otherwise so I went back to that to Chris this inspector absolutely opposed to that and said that it should just all be removed then if that he felt that that was think um the corers do not have training they don't have tools possibly the laser anything else um related to done it well many times farmers are actually exempt they so it's not even really I mean I'm a staunch DIY but I I agree I I don't think I would want even if they passed all the inspections and everything I'm kind of a this is one of those things you you hire a professional yeah but if if the inspector's inspecting it he probably comes out there and checks you for whatever it is and a lot of times people do a better job than then install well there's there's that's why I do a lot of things myself but yeah and it does say that's why I say license designer install inspector provides oversight during the installation so there are caveat let's take a look cuz that's all yellow yeah anyway I just wanted to think about that and maybe look out there yourself if you're interested because it can be controversial but it can also if done wrong caus you nothing but headaches in the future for the future owner right I mean I guess like the inspector said he's an inspector he's not an installer so he's not necessarily going to see every little thing you know part but without a laser or without you know the knowledge you know why do we have in annual classes that these people have to take but but isn't that what mayor say in the next few pages cover that we haven't gone through are you are you open for some more opinions since you took that person's opinion yeah sure yeah is that okay D yes so P that next next meeting who ahead brand [Music] 957 speak up so our all can hear you right so how did we get on this path of reising this ordinance what no what trigger did it for you guys consist that's okay but that state law has been around for many years well right but I think partially our new inspector noticed the deficiencies and um that we you know it was out of dat and we've had some code compliance issues too where we need to have the ability to go if we have a complaint about you know failing system so I just sold the property today in St County and St R county has one of the strangest subject ruls in the state property I sold for 60 years without compy a properly working system does not need to be pumped I did have to pump it because I was selling it and I didn't have to install a new system after the p and I did work with a li contractor to install myself he had the lasers he had the knowledge the same mosty came expected interv another aspect that you guys haven't covered it to be in the state Lobby some of the septic professionals are stating what the mayor that if you're underutilizing your system you shouldn't be pumping it every few years so my property here and now then the last time I had a pump that septic professional said please don't call me until 6 years from now because 3 years it's too soon you're underutilizing your system just because of the square footage what the design was originally designed for for and how many current people live there so yeah I mean in that's where we now have the option to just have it inspected and measured but that's only good for a one year one yeah that that's almost nothing almost yeah then get into the compliance and chasing the compliance St Louis County has no compliance are chasing compliance like I said 60 years no pump you the system was worth you [Music] m there's also places up there that don't have building officials check in say call rules and regulation they are pretty Strang well it could it can't possibly [Music] be my mys the most [Music] anyway thanks for do you have anything else please no thank you okay we'll continue this next week next month we have time yes okay somebody like to make a motion um [Music] just um this is not part of the zoning ordinance so it doesn't require a public hearing do you have interest in advertising for a public hearing so you can be other comments you mean for the what do you think mayor I think you probably want to get through it first and then I think it does make make sense cuz it's going to affect everything I that's one of those things where when you're impacting a large number of people it's better to give them a chance to weigh in first hand before they start getting citations and what happen I think the BR Point what what initiated this so we can explain that to residents at public hearing rather than citations it makes sense but I think we should finish the commission's questions first before we start others so you guys are comfortable with what we' got when they start asking questions you can back good point Y I think it's a good idea mhm okay so that sets us out to probably like January which is fine we still got four or five months in there after that well tell me until you send out yeah you know so you got time to work in there because the winter time is more of a slow time anyhow most of the time except for planning time to get my system out well if you helpful yet or inspected okay okay app we have our last motion then make it well I guess I'll make a motion to second okay where J got it done [Music] oh is the fastest