information on the nature that's oh there we go oh my go yeah actually bu his yeah understand that but trying why Ben and him are talking about so correction but works for never mind I wasused like this is not noral so these aren ping yes someone's got toar that want it's not s go live yes got some point call meeting or the flags have a rule call chman a preson Lewis CER Cindy Nash here assistant Riley here your city administrators pres davson okay thank you next thing on agenda will approve or amend the agenda for May 28 2024 you like to make this motion I'll make a motion to approve the minutes on agenda sorry B made a motion make second to this motion M George second to motion is there any further discussion CNN I'll call for a vote all in favor say I I motion period the next thing we'll do is approve or amend M amends for April 23rd 2024 meeting like make this motion make the motion Mr P made the motion we have a second I'll second that second have any discussion see n I'll call for the vote all favor say hi okay the first thing we're going to do here today is open our public hearing the first public hearing had to do the preliminary use Acres 21 days 2 days 23 days 25 days 22 days4 and I'm going to ask if the new they mailed out yes they were okay we had we had to send out man so at this time we our planer here she so I am not going to go back over everything because I think we've talked about it before but um in your packet in general you have a conditional youth permit to permit a flag lot which is this eastern most lot it has an existing driveway that goes up to 25th Street and has this existing home here and that would be the flly lot for the C and then the rest of it is a preliminary plat for a total of six Lots on this um uh engineering sheet one of the Lots is really an outlot the one that's showing this lot lot one is really an outlot but um so it's a total of six Lots with a road going through it um P Street which is coming off of 205th the um we are still sorting through a few different items um we expect to receive some Revis plant before the sposed city council but we do expect that everything should end up being addressed before it goes to city council yet um with that we're recommending that you recommend approval of it subject to the conditions that are in the findings of back of the two documents in the packet and I'm happy to answer any questions that you have okay because the public hearing we open it up if there's anybody here has any concerns or any questions to ask by planer um yeah I'm th 7933 25 live on the property of Jason to the north and my question is has the water issue been resolved at all so that is um something that we are still expecting some revisions back from their engineer for our engineer to take a look at um so it's not completely resolved do you know what those revisions are um there it's it's all captured in his memo that's in the packet um but I'm not an engineer so about the road condition and the the added traffic with the uh travel on 205th has there been anything discussed or any further is ISU this has not come to the city council so that is something that the city council would have to discuss regarding um 205 and whether um there's anything additional that they would like to do there so at this time you say the questions regarding the road would be brought up to city council not finding Z correct it's not really a Planning and Zoning topic the condition of the existing Road will be more the city council okay but the cause of the conditions of the road can not the problem or concern of city of the planning zoning the current conditions of the road not the future predicted conditions of the road because if approve the the plan as it is that would entail increase the traffic rate there would be some additional increase traffic on 2005 some that's SL okay in the past 22 years there's been two houses built on 205th two houses and you're put five houses on that road in one year now that's a Major Impact when the Minnesota Pollution Control has ISS issues there whenever you address Road issues with dust and the conditions of dust and enhanced dust on roads that has to be addressed by the city it's a state statute and I did bring some information I can share with Planning and Zoning if they want to review it but I don't want to go through the whole thing but I can leave it with you tonight and I highlighted some of the areas on it concerning dust conditions and Animal Health Human Health know cancer so that's something you want to talk about that's fine we'll talk about it city council if you could give us that information we'll take a look at it before city council okay thank you is there anybody make the public hearing Contin continuation the public hearing and the developers here this evening as well there's a lady back here hi my name is Carolyn Cal I live off of n Boulevard and my property is adjacent to the Peterson development and I just have a couple questions and if they've been asked at different meetings just excuse me on that um I was uh heard of that there's going to be a group home there is that correct is that a room in now there is no current application of proposal related to any kind of a grp this is the application for preliminary plat for correct but to me that one um right so is that something that's coming the a group home because that's certainly from so it doesn't a group home up to a certain number of people is allowed in any single family home anywhere in the City by state law so it's not really something that can be reviewed or has so relevance in relation to preliminary product okay so that comes out will we have another hearing for that no if it meets a certain maximum number of people then those are allowed by rent as a single formal home will be okay even without city sewer and water yes okay um no different than if you had that number of people living in your house as a family it's the same impact on say water and sewer provision okay so okay being we don't know about because that to me would be you know there's a flag lots and that would be a conditional use thing so that's just kind of not nailed down yet with that where that would be sometime in the future so the conditional use per permit is literally to have a flag lot and that's something that's required by city ordinance and that's just a lot of shaped in this matter where you have sort of if you picture this is a flag and this a flag for where the driveway is that goes up to a ro yeah yeah I just thought that that was something that that was to I thought I read and I might have misread that it was something that was um for future uh use or future conditions is that not so no this is to allow this lot to be shaped this way with this single family okay that's all it is okay yeah um my other he was talking about the dirt road what what I'm wondering is the you know the criteria for a um road going into a development is it is it dirt be uh that they don't have to car that because there's dirt coming or how did you guys decide is there's a r coming up is how is that how you decided that so they are leaving the road that's in the development Oh I thought I read that it was dirt okay all right that was that was uh that was all I have thank you thank you is there anybody else like to make question with this you want to ask the developer you'd like to developer you have anything no I have okay we'll close this public hearing and it's closed now we'll act upon committee and make a recommendation to the city so I would ask that you make a separate recommendation on the conditional use permit first and then theary CL second if somebody would they like to make the recommendation is I had a simple question regarding the conditional use permit on the um was wondering if if there was any notations or anything that that's one and back about the drainage if that was required to have a c because there was no stating of it in any of the notes you know anything about that um you mean where the existing driveway is the engineer didn't site anything about that so I can ask him after work but City ccil think do that no of it I know that that is one of those things that's where a lot of water likes to sit it's on the other like east side of that driveway so I was wondering if that was being considered to have a c in there at all there is an existing C there oh is it pluged it's a little plugged on the one side yeah I cleared out my side we can get out it is slowing but there is C there any more questions or open for a motion yes this clarification C runs under 250 no driveway the driveway there's one to be uh uh what the West that goes to to that start out between the two pieces of property it's pretty much dry after days of rain there's like no Ian I could get my ankles W the bo so my the road that comes out to 25 has a Culver and then about maybe 100 200 ft down there's one that goes underne there's two of them and there's maybe an inch of water flowing through the r now and that ditch that goes P that goes through the property to the Nory there's not much water so after 4 days of rain there's very little water in there I don't know what the concerns about water I field has not been modified and there's any water as there is when the roll's put in there you're going to have 2300 ft of ditch and two large retention pond so any water that comes out that property can be I don't know where it's going to go be there any more questions here for the finding zbody like to make the motion to accept this I'll make a motion for the C for the C yes C second second any further discuss see and n v favor say I I I oppose motion perod the next motion is to accept this uh like make that motion preliminary PL the preliminary PL the preliminary plat with all the conditions plan and also the engineer I'll make the motion that we accept this there like to second [Music] second second it any further discussion how are we going to once this go through here it goes to the council and then it goes to the final plat we don't get it back here at all we get no fin you get the final plat back here do I know there's lot okay any further discuss chair here I don't know if you expect to uh drainage points of stuff that there were read on from the engineers that we just asked about an askue but go through with the preliminary plat basically legal to proceed right it gives them a legal right to proceed subject to all the condition which includes addressing those coms okay any further discussion seeing n I'll call for the vote all in favor say I I I okay recorded okay pass or if you go to City Council the second e next month okay next public hearing is open that the law law assess structuring front yard 76658 Northwest number 33 33 25 2113 has all the sent out for this ask to present what she had thank you this is an application for Varian to commit a new accessory building that cons of about 4800 ft within the front yard portion of the property that's 7665 188 street so 188 Lane is um right here the existing house with a tap which in this location there's an existing Barn to the rear and what they're proposing to do is construct a pole barn in this location here um together the pole barn with the existing Barn is under the maximum amount of square footage that they could have for accessory um structures on this property however the um exist this proposed accessory building does not um meet a few of the characteristics that are required in your coordinates for um accessory structures hence they have applied for this variance to allot for construction the um property is z rural residential agricultural um front yard does definition in building placement is in relation to um the street and so your the front yard is going to be a location from the house to the street the house of course sits at a little bit of an angle but um when we're looking at front yard we're looking from from here towards the street the um building materials and um basic building plans are in your packet um but they it would generally supposed to look like this and the accessory structure regulations there's several that they're not quite meeting um and basically I've outlined them all in your staff report in your packet anything that had a highlighter that's kind of in Gray tone are items that they do not appear to be meeting so the first one is that accessory structure shall not be both fitted near to the front yard line for the front lot line as compared to the principal spctor so that's the initial reason why they applied for the variance is because the proposed P Barn is closer to the front lot line than the house is um the next one is that the building may not be located more than 60 ft from the principal structure nor directly in front of it except in the case of narrow Parcels where no alternative options exists um the next one is that if there is an accessory structure um that is located in the front yard it can't be greater than 800 square fet and this one is 4800 Square F feet the um next one that doesn't appear to meet is that the exterior coloring material such as shingle siding R PCH door window style wngs coat trim and other design elements of the structure must match the principal structure and then finally that whole style accessory buildings with sheet metal fighting shall not be permitted unless the building the main home would have Incorporated that kind of a style or material in your packet we also outlined the different variants review criteria along with some suggested findings for each of those um happy to go through those if you discuss any of them greater detail otherwise the applicant is here this evening and I'm sure would like to um some and present you know what they're hoping to do with the property and um and why they want to use it for that those purposes a copy of this narrative was included in your P but you may have some information to supplement that good evening and thank you for this opportunity it's for me the first time coming here first time to this meeting and I moved here over over two years ago I was enjoying the life with my family and kids and uh the gr you have four little kids the old one 10 years old and I decided you know with the Minnesota world it's it's nice to have some and know looking and it's feeling it's nice well could we get you speak just a little louder uh yes uh the first fact I want to thank Cindy it's nice to see you nice to hear you uh it's it's a pleasure for me which is I was trying to do that one for a long time I never got able to hear that one from you but that's okay uh here's some strange facts which is I was looking for uh other bar which is in the neighborhood was approved uh and was not approv but which is interesting was recomended to approve my recomend for denial but which is interesting strange without even like kind of back and forth conversation on with the s s is nice to hear you I heard very good words of you I'm glad that one I hopefully that was just something was just me on you was not your frustration because I complain the C I wasn't getting the back that's my with everything else I appreciate for the and for the B the on the time time came on the property I was trying to locate whatever was that one um as as I mentioned a couple times in emails I'm not here to fight I'm here to I came here I'm not here to like for to raise my kids and the family and I came here to like you know I I create a good relationship with the one neighbors other neighbors and front of most of the neighbors since she been enjoying um it's a great it's a great nebor but I'm glad and blessed that also this with this one um I don't have nothing against the ESS or something that's that we have follow the one of the thing I think we have to State here uh just the communication and everything you can resolve you can find if you get a better communication I spoke with this SC thanks for this card for the city I really appreciate it's nice I appreciate I was trying to put the surve if you take a look uh at the I was the bars on the de they came and we we try to put that one somehow to put that one and most economical like that's that's the that's location where where that one it's we don't have I don't have much trees that's only Bunch the that trees and that's the only one location we have when you look for the B and everything from the street you you R Now exlain by everybody came the proper see I'm open options I'm not open if that's the case I have to move it and I have to to change something which is good another thing which is recent application from the I was looking I wasie what's to do that one I was looking at the review and application the next one which is across me if you look at the pictures that's a picture of existing building of somebody else it's not whatever was the propos maybe close I I I kind of like felt uh being too open I that was generated by the 3D which is not really close whatever was with that's the best picture whatever what provide if I would knew I could have just just some nice picture whatever that's what I'm planning to do I was trying to match to the existing house when you from the house to the street the house is Street okay say it's not in front of the house house straight is like uh it's it's located to that uh to the street in the end which one is the front of the house I was trying to with the and was trying to put whatever anyways you can see it's you can see from the front of the house but from this way looking you can't see because even this if you put that proper like put a line it's it's not in the front of the house it's not the house but it's in there and about I'm here to to have any discussion I'm here to this is for me was I'm not to do any businesses just this is for me I'm working for home and the kids is like and wonder I can use that storage and one thing I have that I thought will be for for that I'm here to work with the city I'm here provide all the the rules and regulation whatever with the existing one I'm trying to and also I spoke with our three neighbors and if you're looking in the the I'll try to put that one not Clos to the neighbors from the South but also I was trying to P like not getting more towards in front of that because I was trying to put the line I was trying to to get that one how to get the most Optimum so that's kind of like it's not really um if for example if you look for the house it's really will be hard to see that one the prop that is and it's hard to see that I if that's the case on multiplication the mat that's not set the stone that's that's something but this is the first g i here I heard it like Friday morning and I was sending the email back how we can do that one sorry I'm out this totally fine but I didn't have that time kind of like to which is I appreciate I have the chance kind of like to like like whatever something like working back and forth to find the middle ground where was and if you whatever what in the the area view it's one but when you go there um for me proper to set up everything in the back and towards the north I have a garden on the play area for the kids right now you said if you can put there so basically what you say take all kids and mo playground in the front I have take existing playground and move move that in the front because so the kids go more toward the road and that's for me that's kids number one that's the biggest one like Iana then move toward like move front of the house that way that's the one reason I bought that it's included it's in that and that area so I really appreciate I want that one whatever what's needed to be done that's what I and also like I said I spoke your neighbors hey I want to make sure even before the city before this one going on when I put there hey I want to make sure this is the wasn't set the stone with the neighbor say this is that put the the post I'm he this with the proposed building I want to make sure the it's okay yeah that's no problem I enjoy that's that's that's one my um frustration but also I'm looking for to work on I think the communication the key you can do you can move the mations thank you you know I was talking to our planner here earlier we is a place over put [Music] put you could put it in there left strees to take out and everything that's that's a play this playground for the kids that's that's why the case like that's why I didn't want to move because I don't want to put kids play them in the front of the house and go to the the street if if the city thinks that's the best play the front of the house house you know it's that's I don't you know hope we have the kids Grand kidss I don't want to pay the road and plus during summer working from home and that the windows I can see them overse that one in that direction um that living room and everything it's it's located toward the back of the to um I can't that's the only from the kitchen you can see it over see that direction and when to work in towards the north so I can see them whatever play but otherwise we have to put them in front of the house and just Mr chair yes um do we have like where a propos for the city or the where you think it might fit no really hard to sort of determine when you're standing in the lot and looking at it I mean it's doesn't look like there's room on the side I guess it's what I'm so I I don't prepare options for where people where I think things it um but but you said it's a peer in The Lord of the house but even the put on the lord it's kind of like next to the house you can see that one it's kind of like St there all the time in that build so but you know on their survey that they had there is nothing showing up in this area as being a hindrance say to installing anything that uh you know I appreciate that one if that will be the case I could sent to the surveyor and they I didn't know that I have to do that you know if that was say hey just give me survey for the full part I'll do that be more than welcome to that just a matter of like a day or so from the from the surve the surve it's a great surve back really quick that's that's that's that's the only thing and right now it's the it's that's that's that's where we where we if that was the case I need I'll do that on hey I needed whole CL the survey the whole elevation I'll do that I wasn't aware about that he didn't know and I thought that you say Hey you missing the uh whatever the drain field I do that one I did that whatever what's need I try to get try to get as soon as possible I think it did in one or two days so you absolutely did because I did call out that that that was missing I knew that was missing yes and that's why I was trying to like as soon as you got some Fe because I'm not that's what my understanding was we have a c c plan so kind think this more professional kind give direction whatever guing the direction but looks like right now I didn't have that one and right now I just have a proposal to denial and when I was trying to question something I don't have time so when we first talked about this I did say that uh you have to make the case for where why people in other locations of need one correction all overv we didn't have any conversation I coule voicemail I didn't get any black just some clarification so people understand where we are and to understand my point and they can understand your point and which is I'm not here I'm here to find a solution I'm not here to play whatever there we can create something way better in the future I'm not the past is not defining me or you so we have the chance to all the working for so where we are then now is that um [Music] um if you wanted to you could go back and look at other options and resubmit a Revis survey that shows other options for why things won't work in other locations I suppose um but ultimately otherwise if you want to put it here um you know the Planning Commission still have to make a recommendation then whether that location that SI of the building that are prot if that's the it's it's it's about right now let's kind of like have we have couple questions here so like if it's the location of the building it's one that's for main more important than the style of the building because that is something I I'm more flexible in that one than here location on on there which really appreciate came over them I didn't expect nobody came to come over the weekend because everybody's enjoying you know it's it's long waiting why not um but I really appreciate I was surprise please like it's one of the things um I was trying to locate that one if I put in that direction whatever was that one I have to call it's about like 4050 trees mature trees the pine trees here was the there as uh some of the it's basically have C like underes which is even those don't happen if I cut over there this is like really heavy the PS This is used to be like even before the my prev whatever Christmas tree farm and we have one of which is nice and beautiful I don't want to replant the for the location I don't see and if you put on the m to the house as we said I can that's the fireplace and that's the the the family if you if you see that's a trampoline over there and that's the play and I have the part like you know some things have to they toinstall somewhere else because you have to I'm glad anybody can seey hard we can put that can put it change location thing thing we're facing here Mr dony is we have an ordinance we have to go by and according to our ordinance place you like to put it there we we can't allow it there because our ordinance say it can't be there we're willing to work with you place up there uh but I really appreciate that's why that's why my understanding apply forance that's the whole point app forance allow that to to to accept that one and if I was the first one to put the building in the in the front of the house I say yes but I don't think I'm the first one who requesting that we to put the the front of the problem is you don't meet the variances they did they did meet the qualifications and I I agree with you that's an ideal place where you want to put it but according to our ordance they can't p b because we be set the Pres for other people we have to be very careful Mr CH but but I mean we have said so for variances to right make exceptions there's reasons behind that and we have clearly defined reasons so we just need to determine whether or not they're going to fit in this scenario correct we can basically recommend that yes approve this variance to allow the building or not and with a list of reasons like maybe maybe it's not for the maybe it's something you know what I mean um we were we were on the lot and it it does it you look at it and you go yeah no that's actually the a good spot for one pending all of this other uh re you can't see it on the road that was you know the B the thing that I was looking that because full for you can't you can hardly see the road only if you're standing on the thing um I was just I on this other one briefly if you don't mind um I know that you had recently approved a similar sounding variance for an accessory structure in a front yard and it was on this property it was a little different scenario they wanted they wanted to construct it here um technically it was in a to the front because it yes if you go off that street but it was really more of a a parent front if you will wanted fix additional Road driveway too and they had some setback issues with some water and but the house really fat is this streight so was way to pick one it appears like it's more on the side than the front I wasn't aware if you've done any others similar or not but that was one I fine I yeah I've talked to a couple of people since I've been here who with changes in staff thought it would be worth calling again that had been told on the past that they would not all by or something kind of similar where they want where the literally only place they put something the they in there [Music] and is willing to work with you try to come up with a better plan all I say I'm sorry because of the way our urin is ruled we can't be there so so the rules kind of like building over the C so whatever the play area it's okay to be in the front toward the road it's not not in the back of the house because that's that's the word that's that's should I understand it correct question did you understand I'm sorry so whatever that area that's probably feel whatever which will be the people will be the day will be okay that is where the player for the kids have to have some of the part have to take it out take it it down put move different location that's that's that's do that one that's the city will approve that one so I'm just I just want to make sure something because you said before that you can see the play area from your office window yes but I thought this was the part that was the house and this is the yeah but if you look at the you see the pool and in the cor yes the living there on the top and if you look uh it's you can overse so I can see like a trampoline there yeah okay is there more play equipment yes in the woods or where it's like over there it's hard to see because the shade but it's uh it's right and work the so my question was really simple um I understand he's definitely wants his location so let's I wanted to go back and ask a couple of different questions and it was based on the materials on the exterior um and I guess the distances from things so if keeps the location and we work with materials would that then suffice at at all um some of these parameters that we're trying to make sure it happens because it would eliminate informance for sure okay um so basically an exterior of a metal building is not going to cover it he needs to have more of a exterior garage within structure not f post FRS what you're explaining right something that's compatible with the architecture of the hall okay if it's understand that maybe yeah yeah that's what I understand that's the for me I didn't have that's what I said I got this one that from the CB Friday morning okay and I didn't have that any basically I sent email back on which is that's totally fine I don't expect that okay so of these items here that you received on the regulations you've reviewed these yes okay so the question we're going to SK number three but are you f with b d or b c and d and e on number five that would change them and that you can you can make those me one of them one of them is that the overall floor area isn't greater than 800 square feet oh yes but I the 10 ft sidewalks too so but I didn't really need did he have a height 18 yeah at the why so tall it's uh have 14 14t doors P that's that's the 14 ft door 16t wall I minimum with the that's was mentioned earlier that this building would would meet all the requirements if it wasn't in like he could build that side of the building if he had I was talking cely the total square footage of this the Mr chair yes just to clarify that because the garage has greway that's not considered an attachment correct it's part of the primary building chicken does kind of the Minimus yeah the I guess the question that we're looking at is actually on page 40 and 41 the the state sets the criteria for variances and and those are the ones rather than page 39 there just regulations we do have 10 foot regulation 18 that's so the six criteria from the yes on page well our page 39 it's page 40 and 41 two a through b a through F yes those are the state criteria for variance right that's what the state designes if you wanted to make a recommendation to approve a variant you need to make findings for each of those it that's adusted findings for denial but um but of course if you can Whittle away some of these other ones that are marked on on page like try to do um that might make it easier to make findings of for some of the rest of those other items on p 40 41 Mr your chair yes mayor and the other the other question I have is you keep saying that you didn't have the play area where it is this building was north of the garage instead of play area you'd have to put the play area the building what would be wrong with the play area being actually in the backyard there between the house and chicken it seems to be a fair mod of area that's that's down the kill so you don't have or I'm saying you stay the house here a pool and don't have much it's it's kind of like it's going down the SL the back it's in pond over there the and it's kind you can see the how that it's going so I put the Contour layer on for everybody to see on the gis so you can see um the house is here the swimming pool's here and obviously it's pretty flat there and where he has the um trampoline on the playground right now but here's that SW I he's referring to right there yes now I don't know if it could go in this area that that's they have ELC box over there right right on there [Music] you know or here or somewhere you know just to make room for a building so I'm sorry what that no This Barn is a barn the chicken poop is showing on the survey [Music] um the chicken poop is a little it's really small so that other thing seeing so this this garage is actually attached to the house the other thing that at the bar that's about sareet that's the one that's in the back end of what was in the opening yeah okay I was envisioning that Chen Chen okay is there a restriction for it to go there because I mean there's got to be set back there somewhere is there there right yeah there's going to be a three yard up back there but it's not I mean I think that could be potentially met um can you go smaller than 4,800 Square ft and because he's on five acres that's why he's too large correct no total number of square footage amount of square footage of exory buildings between the proposed one it's just in the front it's this is all he in the front the 800 yeah that makes sense so yeah I like the idea that additional information on there I mean we went out there I mean there's a large right in front of that Barn there's a right to the north of the driveway there that's like all Garden um like obviously you know we're still planting things down but basically that space taking with that and then there's the play area a park yeah fire pit um and then there's a parking there's like parking pad on the I don't know if we can see that at all yeah so sometimes a little more different shadows yeah you can you kind of see the outline here the yeah see [Music] that Mr chair yes so so yeah the problem here be that we have to meet item F on these where the requested variance is the minimum action required to eliminate yes so so we got so many things that have to be varied that it's some of these can be met by location moving or building size changing so the current plan is not the minimum action so be difficult the P heing this that with all these conditions set a lot of precedences for we thank you appreciate what I'm asking the location planning to work on those to get that work on I you didn't have time when you got response Friday and nobody's working on Friday and you don't you just don't have time to respond toate those to the to what will not be as V Mr yes I would suggest to the commission that also C would have to be CN take a look that D isic which could be related to the exterior building that can be he um weathers would negatively impact shed would impact the rest of neighor but C and have to be the sick are you looking1 oh yes the variance criteria not the exess stru regulation so a through f are the safe requirement yes yes and c and FC be the Prest points one related to the place it's his choice and F is um there are appear to be other suitable locations okay the thing is probably what we need do is vote on this and then give me suggestions to work withj has the time to be I don't think he need to if he's willing to make some changes to the application I think you don't need to vote tonight you can ultimately table this but give them some feedback on items you'd like to see change to make it um easier for you to justify criteria and you understand yes I understand my ask is if you can have more better communication on the SC I appreciate it on on more more than a half of this what have back and forth would have this tonight okay well I think he is also looking for feedback on the location yeah because um he does have a setic drain field here and one of those location criteria is not more than 60 ft from the house so that would imply that it should be could somewhere in this area if you try to meet that yes detic system no not not move detic system or the well which is right here but um you know whether you're okay with this location I think is what you're is part of this um and hence not meeting that 60 feet requirement from the house because that would put it you know give her tape 158 ft from the house to try to meet that 60 feet he' have to get it in somewhere you know right right in here he has to be only three feet from the well that's very doable but you have to be 20 feet from that time make Mo there the table this until our next meeting a little time to work on this to come up an option somebody like to Second this m j second any further discussion I think we should give him some before we shut we the public can I continue it we're going to continue it but yeah before before you continue we should give them some feedback okay so take back your motion to take continue so the concern I believe that we're looking at is your size overall size of the building for being in the front of your property um wondering if you can relook at locations getting it closer to your home or set back um we're not sure about the the little bar you have back there if that's something you can abolish and put this in its place will that help you I don't know you can get all the square footage you want no I'm based on the square footage I'm meeting in the square footage and I'm under that s footage but that size in front of the in front of your home but the only 800t 800 take all that get it so that's where you're wondering what are your other options to get it closer to your home and or closer to equal to the home so that we can provide variance for you that doesn't set PR open up a book works also your exterior colors and functions and getting them a little bit more into the liking of what's required and requested for our hes how how much time do you have your plan to Wi on this um yeah we can bring it back to the next meeting I don't know that it would take him that long to make revisions and we should be able to bring the next meeting Mr yeah the one thing I'm not sure if I'll be under in that location because I postp my vacation du to this meeting and it's be four weeks off so I'll new able to we can go later because of your vacation if you give an extension that's that's what I'll uh I think like at least two weeks address I'll be able to let you know if you give us an extend together we do this you yeah for me presenting whatever all those changes I think will take whatever we think so more okay he No not tonight no okay okay Mr yes so so where it says the fight of the land owner is due to circumstances unique to the property not created by the land owner well to meet that condition says that things that that you have created can't influence the the lears that means that your choice of the player Garden whatever and the location that that was on the property when I bought the prop even if it wasn't your choice it was some person's Choice before yours which still and it's your choice to keep it I have to move which is it's another it's not cheap to move everything over in the front understood okay the cheap is the money side is not the first one as you said okay is for me it's number one say to the kid I want to move the K front of the house cl to the road that's the only thing my biggest biggest concern about the kids it's not about the if I can move or not I can move that one nothing will be more something but my main concern is you know that's the kids um that's that's the only thing concern about the kids putting in front of the close to toward the the street one other just bit off I mean if it was me looking for a building of this size or larger I would probably be considering taking down the little and putting it there because it probably would that more space you uh if uh I appreciate if you can guys who was interested really interested to solve this one generally I'll start by and see the location can you have way more IDE better IDE understanding how it is how it's located and are it's one you can you can ask and what they saw the property and that's how hard okay I understand I appreciate okay I think we just got we got a lot of things cover here tonight but what we're gonna have to do is we gave a lot of information on we can send what it takes to get information and it can be extended with his permission to give him more time for vacation stuff like that and so uh we still need aay continue I'll make motion further discussion when will we continue it to since the date umly [Music] for a no we don't have a written extension in hand so I would say the July um meeting which is thank you you can recue then if it's not on the exion yep I'll work with them on the extension so uh I think we're that ready discussion yeah is there any further discussion not call favor say I oppos motion carod thank you we continue in July all right give you a lot of time to work on come up with something and that vacation ISS then July I'll be back July I'll be back 23 yes July what 22nd 23rd 23rd okay 60 days yep thank you thank you I suggest decide to adjust your agenda to bring now PS up I think good idea like that to a motion we done before the next we have a second second discussion all Pap say Okay motion carried so we have you come up now for the [Music] ask her she so they are um proposing their final plat for now tax you saw the preliminary plat at your meeting last month the city council approv the preliminary PL um and we're recommending approval of the final plant now before we bring it to city council um in the next couple couple weeks from now we'll be working with the um City attorney on preparing a development agreement that can go to the city council at the same time but it's a relatively minor one there's limited improvements to be made and um because these three lots are all directly asked existant know you're aware from your meeting last month happy to answer any questions you have but basically the final PL ahead so I I just like to clarify your memo that you had on page 118 the first two information like they're sming information first so um first yeah full point sorry and then the second one is is no that just the first one okay you have not not at this time not time no open it up to the public is public comment the I'm I agree with whatever always okay any other questions we have here yes you have um been getting some questions around a little bit at the office you have for the three lots of this point I know we don't we have one possible buyer I have people interested do you want me to send your voice yeah can sure enough I'll have did you did call out one page to one page page 134 under six that saying 118 but I see one on 134 as well a notation for p Acres instead of six would be the findings six sorry page 134 I'll make that change yeah there number six which I wondering any other questions that we might have make a motion to accept I'll make motion to [Music] final stated in the the second Mr Carl second discussion all sayh caus a lot of I don't look forward to see I don't think you do either I don't call all in favor say I I motion Carri City CC fin goodu the next thing is public was a third party consultant thank you um give me a minute to F that one up so something when I first started and was chatting with that commission with administrator ler early on was about your how the city charges esto to developers and um both how and when they are charged the amounts that are charged Etc um and we've been working with Natalie as well on trying to um update estal balances and some of those things that um could potentially use some amount of improvement in the city system one of the things um that I saw right away is that you were collecting escrow amounts at the time it could be a five for flat or or an application of some sort varal youth perit whatever it is and at the same time there can be a lot of planner and engineer time that's spent from say shortly after that first phone call all the way up until that time when they're applying for that application that they're making now sometimes they'll apply for that and then they might be surprised that I think the city maybe has been tracking bills along the way and charging them but they didn't know that um and other times potentially some stuff has not been charged and with being charged to the city in general all it probably depended a little bit on the specific project how that was done historically so one thing this ordinance will do is provide for a certain amount of time for someone to ask them preliminary questions but then they need to put an esro in place um with the city if they want to keep talking to myself and the city engineer for different questions that they have through the as they're kind of preparing their application and through that design process um a lot of times what we see are that people will they know that escro is coming later so they will try otherwise to have us pre-review things up front before they apply and spend a lot of time that way um it also set some expectations then as well that um you know there's a reason to talk to them early about the estro process how it works what types of things they're going to be charged for because your like many others has a policy that anyone who's applying for things is supposed to pay the cost of their of processing their applications the other thing that has been that I saw in your Fe schedule is that no matter the size or complexity of a application you're charging the same amount for us up front now they're supposed to be replenishing that but it can be a little misleading to them if they're asked for say A5 $ estr um but based on the complexity of their project maybe their project ends up costing them 10,000 in reimbursable pleas and I think that causes a lot of inchs with developers as well um so having the estro be an actual conversation piece with a up front thing that they're you know having to supply gives me the opportunity to talk them about how if you um make a lot of changes if you keep redesigning things if you keep asking a lot of questions demand a lot of meetings your bills go up right if you can try to make it as efficient as possible come as close in your application to what the ordinances is as possible from the beginning it takes less time um so this just kind of outlines that along with all the other Direct cost that you're charging back to applicants and there's a companion piece so there's this third party consultant ordinance but then there's proposed changes to your fee schedule as well and your fee schedule just to give you an idea of what I'm about to talk about here I've outlined all of it in Red Line um but you can see like here on this minor subdivision there's a reporting fee of $46 L well that doesn't necessarily equate to anything um there is a certain cost to recording a document but it's not on the basis of how many Lots you have for example so that fee wasn't necessarily kind of matching at the same time if you tried to charge it on how many documents they're paying that fee at the time that they're fine but we might not know how many documents need be reported so we're kind of changing proposing to change this instead that all of those costs just get pulled out of the esro as a direct cost so once the city knows that there were X number of documents that had to be recorded and it cost the city x amount to do that gets logged into that escrow as a charge against the estro instead of trying to charge for it up front so it takes some of this complexity of the Fe schedule away because it's the application plus submitting the required estro and um and so as a result some of these other portions are going to get changed as well refer back to that third party consultant um ordinance Mr chair engineers in here May and I think the other problem had recording wasn't coming in a timely fashion sometimes those escos would be returned already we weren't charging those necessarily to the people that we should have been charging to so the S has been taking about we doing some clean up recently we had quite a few from we right tying those fees all together as part of the explained EST because you're right some people thinking that $1,500 is covering they still got 345,000 more coming right maybe not so much developers smaller individual people especially the smaller individuals I think even the developers I think when they're charged a small amount of front and then they're not told along the way where they're at with their estos um and has to replenish maybe a long way um they they are a little surprised at the end um one question which is a difficult thing to do because Nat doesn't know where the project sits and so it's hard for her to say oh this one at the end of the asro somebody needs kind right and um the way it's kind of set up though is that there's this initial eser mon establish but what it should be is that periodically I always recommend monthly recognizing that sometimes during audit season for example Natalie might get behind and not be able to do it monthly but um you know try to get those statements out to those developers so that they know exactly where they sit you know and that statement would then also say please replenish your escore back up to this amount so that we're hopefully always carrying that amount and then are cutting them a decent check at the end instead of saying that they owe more money um one question is that so what are the esro amounts and this is where I'm going to ask you to trust me some because in every other community I do this except the industrial amount individually based on what I think the Project's going to take so if if I if the project is going to be a mining application that's going to require an ew and it's in a Shoreland area and you know I'm just adding all kinds of layers of complexity in here that esro is going to be very large compared to a very simple I for a home occupation you know know on somebody's property where they have 20 acres for example and are landing neighbors um you know so kind of look at the situation and kind of estimate what we think can we be wrong absolutely um some projects we have no idea are going to draw out a crowd of folks and have um you know multiple public hearings or tabling of actions but we do our best and um ask them to replenish that as we need to but um you would think that when I'm picking a number based on our Judgment of what it would take that we get more complaints about the amount of the As and I can tell you that I've been doing it this way in some communities for about 20 years and I can count on one less than the fingers of one hand how many times somebody's complained about the Asom so um it works easier than you would think it would um Mr chair yes so in this is is would we be setting up an Esco account because right now we've been putting esort funds into the channel does this incorporate that or is that a separate practice we have to set up with the office we can we can if you're going to be sending out State notes monly Port whatever it is um I would assume we would know how much it's in each individual account and when that budget's down how much is still all to be return correct so whether you adopt this or not that what you just describe for something now is going to be working on anyways since it shouldn't be um it shouldn't be included within your general fund in terms of looking like your general fund balance now it'll be all in the same checking account but from an accounting standpoint it'll be in a different project in your accountan so B need yes [Music] um well I mean you could do it separately on spreadsheets but I think for your accounting purposes it shouldn't it shouldn't look like it's part of your fund balance anyway um and so n was already flipping towards I think anything that was coming in in 2024 she was already setting up in a new man so as far as the esro gos that you have lifted out and changed on Su um having it written is kind of nice for someone to kind into it and that's I think why we had this give somebody a ballp idea or if you know there was no one there the question it was it was there um so I don't know are you to so it could happen that you move on and acquire someone else so then again we're going through all this a way weird way like es but even even with it being written on your application forms and then your fee schedule um I know staff is still not collecting fees from people when they bring in applications until they talk to me because we did get one last week and rather than um trying to follow was on the application form itself um just the application came over that you came back with that was nice guys um so I don't think you know that might have been the intent was to make it easy but I think there's still questions even though it appears as though it should be easy [Music] okay I mean from a standpoint of I know what all this kind of too and just saying hey yeah we want to me no great you I know more than your general person about this stuff but okay I was just wondering if this was just still helping stack but it's not no I don't you know we don't have many that come in that way that are kind of blind coming in um without any warning normally there's a a list like by email that's sent out to an applicant saying you need to submit your application form with you spe your escro agreement which is a separate document we would have with this with this estro amount the set of plans your building elevations whatever all to that application um and when I know that's coming in ahead of time I would send it to staff as well so that they can be aware when it submitted and already have that little checklist I think the ones though that coming in with utter knowledge are the ones that that style was meant to help and is necessarily we post a range of estimated that or have a separate people some idea what the B I'd like to not do that and the reason why is that some applications for example if something required an e that's going to add an extra 20,000 or something anyways to the asro depending on who's writing that whether it's us writing it or if we're reviewing something there submitting and that's why we like to have it be something where depending on the complexity we can vary what that ESC initial ESC mode is so that the idea with your initial consultation then to mytim yeah to find out what their project is that they're proposing answer their preliminary questions um and we really need to do that so a lot of time with residents in the city going back and forth for weeks on emails and time and if we don't have an esro set up for that City's picking up the T most recent one we looked at was over $2,000 that the city picked up to be able to to deal with an we arguing that before and that was my next question how much time are you spending on these people that collecting an esro so and that's something that [Music] um the recommendation in here is two hours we make it a amount um I think now truthfully I don't exactly like track that for every phone call and like on an individual property basis and I really kind of use it as a okay you reached out three times now I've got to get you on the clock with the city um and then I can point to that in the ordinance because it's also not practical when we're getting 20 calls a week on different properties to try to track those over the course of even here you know when you start multiplying that down would it be better to have or number of contacts or something well number of contacts is hard because the first one might have been so minor right that you hate to count it almost so it is kind of more of a feeling but like that person with a firearm license it I called spout a couple times during that you want me to what do you want me to do K coming back um or if we would had something like this in place we could have lived it early on and we didn't had the time when that's what drove us to start talking so along those lines thatl good example it wouldn't necessarily just do I think the attorney was involved right right or the engineer the engineer so so how if somebody do they get2 hours with each or whatever it is whatever the number would be they they get with the attorney engineer and no how do we we deter so that one it sounds like they were arguing go back either they went to the attorney or you went to the attorney or we ended up going to the attorney and that's why Cindy being The Keeper of the time she knows what she's spending with all these different entities and be able to get there um if we would have something like this in place before we got that deep into it we would have had the conversation with them about put some money on the table if we want to continue to keep back and forth but to the mayor's point I think it's it's a total of time not two hours for the attorney two hours for the engineer two hours for in order to get to the engineering attorney case coming through the yeah we're going to have to escap yeah now certainly there are situations where excuse me yeah how about where the Scott because if you're on the clock they come in I got a pre over here and they I don't want taking all your time either oh and then you have to go back to Cindy and answer the question if cind is the gatekeeper since she's tracking how many times she's talk to you right that would be my understanding yeah especially with the FFL I was not the expert to be talking to if you know I was just trying to qu when we were talking Bob and going through the planet C would be the G keeper when so then it's cumulative saying okay you gotta call in Scott talk to me I to talk to another professional so well typically typically I would need R talk to to either the attorney or the engineer until we get the asro then um and I typically because sorry I say typically because there there are exceptions right that occur um a typical kind of exception that will maybe happen maybe not is um like a a lot of times people we're working on economic development things where there's a company were trying to get in a city there might be a little more time expended up front before the city puts them on the clock but at the same time we need to be able to stop these ones like that firearm one um most residents are pretty good you know and you know you can tell if you can just give them that one more little piece of information they can keep moving on their way to what they're doing um but then other ones are we need to be able look at them on a CL in city I speak very frequently during the week so I know what we're dealing with she knows what I'm dealing with we're comparing notes we're going back and forth and U we we get a feeling when when this actually should be taken in right so um as far as a cumulative time back to your point may we have a we have a relationship that we're talking enough that we we can understand how much times put in this when when it should trigger so how long do we need how much time is more than enough two hours is more than enough I think one hour okay one hour I've had clients that use one hour as well so it all depends on how what amount of time you put in there depends on how accessible you think we should be to helping people out with their questions um and I put two hours in this draft because I know that in the past your previous planner spent a lot of time handholding the years because I do get calls when people all the time expecting me to come out on their property and lock it with them and things that you know if we really did this that would take hours of time and it did and last so try I was trying to hit a middle Brown sort of but you could certainly go last Mr chair yes um so I I think that again if you're moning and you you get a feel after your years in the business saying yeah we're didn't near that hour a little more I can put you over the edge or know you're just noing at this point I put I think if commission wants to recommend an hour what is legally since you're not actually clocking you know when you're getting close to somebody who's just trying to get as much out of you as they can because ask think we cover that makes sense yeah and the point I was going to make on my previous comment was the fact that we're talking as often as we are um when CD thinks something needs to go to the attorney or hey I'm going to bring shanon or something like that we're talking about that ahead of time hey what are your thoughts SC we're both on the same P time and probably B it so anytime we're engaging somebody else we're already having that conversation so we know when it's going to trigger something like this right I anything Bob related is probably going to that means she's already got the but I ask you a question I would be fine with it's just a matter whatever you all like to do an hour hour if she know she supposed to see deal might be just a littleit how long has it been that we've been not taking estro with applications you take it with the applications so you're not taking it pre application and you're discussing stuff with before they put appliation and and the residents are expecting we've done it for well before I was now the ones that are going to be tough to solve are like that ones that I can't remember the address 7811 um old biking that was for that property was for sale and we received a lot 10 calls a week until it sold from people proposing different businesses that partly because the [Music] mar that's a really good example one we sent multiple fortunately there were a lot of got a lot of time the city right and the best I can come up with for those kind of scenarios which hopefully they don't happen that often would be once we know a situation like that would be to use that time instead to put together some kind of a little back sheet or something to you know use my time to do that instead that I can give it to Scot and he can say if you want to explore more than what's on this you'll have to establish a best one that would be really the only way to handle that one we had something like that or we put the time into that that would give more resources to staff to be able to build some those questions have S recognizing that fact sheet that would be a general one right related to this property Zone R it is not fided for commercial if anybody wants to do a home occupation here what they have to you need app for comprehensive F right otherwise do that and and if you want to talk about that F here's your escro agreement and you can you know set that is that going be in this since each person is less than two hours it seems like change have something for that situation well I think that's where you know because it is any requesting party so each requesting party puts us in that mind those do not happen that often where you have that many on one property um and like I said you know if we know those things coming up we can work on some fact sheets and just try to avoid the phone calls to me but I think part of it too is you're um you do have my phone number on the website as well so people are able to find me without using City staff as a gatekeeper a question when they do that they get charge for that okay yeah so one option would be to take my number off the city website and just not make me as accessible which I just for that of that I think we whing well yeah I know in our our newslet we but contct contct [Music] information I but when she decided that it's still there obviously that was like that it wasn't should we put some kind of number of contacts for Ticket property trigger um so well I think that will help just taking that off the website um because they'll have to go through the staff to get that we just download everything you know in Chris be helpful too don't think this is going to capture every single thing that we have but I'm conf I'm confident that it would take the majority of the things that we were so if we want to create it just for the 8711 old Viking because we took so many calls on that I think that's two pile stretch I think we can handle that a little differently because it like s said that doesn't happen very out so I want my recommendation would be that you don't have to create something that captured everything in there this I think it's hard to explain but I think this ask right here is going to hit a large portion it's going to make it significant difference than what we've been and I I do think that really was the exception one they didn't budg on the price a lot of people ask two they marketing is going commercial that's it's not when is it going to be questions soon is going to be yeah is it going to change can I put a riding arena in can I bring in trucks um what they CR some sort of large trucks in there I want to work on vehicles and have an outlot so I can that stuff is going to work but we have L yeah that's kind of what I'm yeah so it just had to be explained to them right but all took time a lot of cities but I do think that's aity and you can't write something so comprehensive you get 80% what we going to right now okay so one thing you know is that you could recommend a different number of hours that we have in um paragraph B I would recommend that we do add in person as an option virtual used to be the you know Co net thing so they in person if needed wanted I I would suggest I left that that you could do the in person but then you'd have to change the number of hours to be greater um it's hard to stack meetings one on top of another um so I'd be making trips out they they inevitably want me to go out to their property um so I would keep it as just the team meeting or the or the telephone version okay correctly but your charges start when you leave your office get back to office right that would defeat the whole purpose of one hour exactly well then yeah we'll leave in person out and change it to the hours but I've iners require to start do that in person would have to then yeah and then what you guys suggested for f for billing I think is so what did you say on is it one hour I suest no one else spoke up commission light to 1 hour yeah the one hour especially a it's to get yeah okay well I think the CH M's pretty strong so been provide any flexibility no but you have to remember too that even after that initial telephone call right is going to be a little bit of research on their property and then it follow email usually saying here's the items you're going to need to do what what do you think that one time is so no I think the one hour for that initial consultation is fine you think you'll be able to fit every recognizing I'll still have like that little bit of work to do afterwards yeah their hour is up she may have some some additional time but they're not going toce that and then expect her to do another so maybe one hour in person and 2 hours total I think we said no in person no in person I mean um direct contact less than one hour I think one hour covers it yeah it's hard for me I'm just gonna spit fall from him because I'm in the same situation she is I have to keep track of everything I do it's a little bit much if we start getting too too many of if if if if if one hour just make it just easier for her and for everyone else my personal op because I know the language shall not exceed they could dispute any charge above an [Music] hour but that's for her to discuss with them that's the point of this yeah correct so took more than an hour yeah she needs to say okay this is stretching Beyond an hour let you know yeah I'm going let you know that at this point we need to be done or I need to start charging and that is why we need to put Power in there for her to start have that so that's the item I get to use to point to the residents to and say sorry but this is obviously lets me do this is all they want to let the taxpayers pay for right okay so I thought this was going on r so this is just the cities yeah this is and and like truthfully a lot of them will be a little over that right because there's still going to be that little bit of research to get them the bare minimum to start and even then I'll be honest half these properties in in your community once I look up the address file Scott and I have been having lots of fun conversations once I look up the address file or the reported documents there are exception Bel lower that have been made and you you can't make an assumption here that that's not going to be the case so so if I may one recommendation if we're going to be with the hour can the motion or can we have it in there that Cindy has the flexibility a little bit back and forth if we right it says it in here perfect I took my glasses off okay sorry everyone's that I know here but I just want to make sure that you got the yeah so yeah that's what I was questioning is shall not exceed so there that doesn't create flexibility where where's the flexibility the flexibility is just that for that initial consultation the city isn't going to seek reimbursement from the person ask that's the flexibility for them now you guys like I said I'm not going to keep track of um in 30 second response on an email well we'll keep every property with a separate project code in my acconting system because I don't know that it can I don't want to send Natalie 100 in of them up you know with a lot of them being a half hour an hour um I would agree [Music] are you guys okay with the letter F on the billing of the 90 every 90 days with a settlement within 15 days that well for that bill that they' just accumulated for 90 days in the es correct isn't that what this is for um sorry I'm just saving this doc second they yeah so city clerk no less than 90 days requesting I'm sure there's always going to be one of those loes I'm say requesting party yeah so well 30 days I that's pretty normal you ask me construction conation that's pretty noral it isn't it isn't so um give you an example of one I had to do two weeks ago somewhere else we discovered that once this C had kind of recol esos from myself and here in the Atty on a project we were actively working on there were under um or subject to the 1599 rules right that they they were consuming because of their actions they were consuming a lot of our time and when I say consuming I mean in that case it was something I couldn't predict they were they the developer would come back and ask me the same question 10 times in three weeks looking for a different answer okay so just using and consuming our time like excessively so we were in a negative es situation and we were also coming up on the end of our time where the city council had to make a decision so I literally had to call up that developer and say you need to bring a $10,000 check to the City by tomorrow or we'll stop working on your application so how dides that fall into this this is like the regular the naving would um send out something and then expect them to chew it up in 15 days yeah so if there's an esro in there they're we're going to take it why if coming short and they' got to catch up that as within 15 yeah or getting low right y if you can kind of predict that they might still be positive so in this situation who's updating them on where things are being spent you know that that whole the third party UMES who's updating the requesting party is it you know that hey we we this off you know we're going to be sending this into your esro your esro yeah great question so in most communities it'll be the finance person that's sending off these regular statements so they are getting updated in most communities um yeah because we're running to put this to play I'm just wondering Mr chair just so we're talking about the 90 days that's what was we're proposing we update every 90 days we send them an update this say no no more than no less no less than okay so 90s are Max but if it goes to 3 months and there's a lot of backing for I mean is it a lot of work to update every 30 days I mean I I guess I don't know yeah I have no idea how long yeah Mr chair yeah so if if you have um routines established where as those invoices are coming in from your consultants and your city staff then can just update those in the accounting records and potentially on a separate spreadsheet if that's how they choose to do it um monthly is very appropriate um I don't think that that has been occurring in the city um with any kind of regular periodic frequency that's fair good so that's why night not less than every 90s in here right now but I think one every month would be ideal recognize just so everybody understands how it really works is that all of your Consultants are invoicing on a monthly basis as well um I intentionally try to get mine out as close to the end of the month as possible because I know that whenever I even if I get them out on the first of the very next month some of that stuff's already 30 days old right so that's 30 days worth of stop sitting there and the long you wait into the next month that's even more that's cing that City hasn't seen in DOS so in addition to whatever the books show there's all this work that has been done that has been approved but not invoiced to the city yet um so the backlog can be pretty substantial Mr chair yes mayor so and and when we get the invoices from the contractors they put on their these are pass through expenses the invoice to these account the loophole the problem we had previously is that wasn't controlled within our finance department and so we didn't know where the estos stood money went into the fund balance into a general fund and it was only when that project was closed out previous contractor would have been say here where that same so we weren't doing monthly so now that there will be an account for these there will be a spreadsheet showing each of these requesting parties on there and we know where that passes through that might will be held set this should be once they organize it much easier to do on a monthly basis so because we're passing through and oops this one's getting l so who contacts him that's that's to turn but we should be able to track it in a way that information wasn't available to the stud we didn't know the project was completed now we found out these people weigh the L P payments or these people had exus so and it wasn't being managed like now now it has been since beginning of the year so yeah and then been very helpful when open get to speed and get things set up so and another kind of key component of that is that those applicants should also be getting copies of our invoices you know you know along with these statements whatever is new that is coming in which is still not even going to be that timing right now we're still talking even more leg or it's up to them but they certainly shouldn't be getting it at the end of the project where they then go what happened a year ago on this I don't even know you know they can't question the bill if they feel compell to so there should be that transparency there them having abil to do that um just for clarification on should make that how about if we just take the title out and just say the city there's many in the next section yeah okay yes have fun I'll find all those all right you have fun that we didn't recreate this from scratch we may have used the temp do that you had AI do this for you good job the peters and here accidentally Cy paste oh my go ask a question on just before that on section four from section E Yeah cityne shall provide a form cost reimbursement agreement yep is that something you used previously yeah and I already had I already sent it to Bob I updated it for now then I sent it to Bob he's already approved it and probably spent about two minutes on it because it's a one page document I said it was this one that you've done before with the names changed and he said I that looks fine y right okay so the city council will see that form when we take it to C I guess we're moving on we good so we do need a recommendation from you oh and okay so point now make a motion for third party [Music] consult third party consult you already well that right you're the dude in charge what's what's the r we'll close hearing then we need a motion for third party consult I'll make a motion for us for Miss Nash to make the adjustments to the schedule and go through find the word cler behind the word City and city cler city got that um and then I have anything else that we talk about in relation to the further discussion I'll call for the vote all favor say I [Music] I enforcement than you so another item that we have been working on um the team of Staff members and R River as well is to propose some amendments to the city to um align your city code to put us in a better position relative to Effectiveness in COD for now the piece that's being asked um for you guys to consider is specifically items that are within the zoning ordinance today that may be better place within a general nuisance section of the ordinance um and the reason for that is is if something's in your zoning ordinance and is more of a nature of something that's a nuisance if they've been doing it for a long time they could be grandfathers in and allowed to continue that for example related to junk cars or things like that um so normally something like unlicensed Vehicles junk cars we like to have in a nuisance section and not even talk about zoning um because otherwise people could say well I I have stored junk cars here for 40 years this shouldn't be a problem um and we don't want to give any right to necessarily something like that I donate so kind of walk through um with you what these items are a couple of them um right now I pled without a recommendation um because there was an intent to talk with your City attorney about a couple of these items and whether they should be called or not but your attorney has been unavailable for most of the last few weeks with um some personal items so a couple of these I'll take your Indulgence on to um to just bring to the city council make a recommendation before we get to that part but the first so the first one with the actual change is um 11-45 which is General standards there's a section on storm water runoff that basically says no land shall be developed and no use permitted that results on storm water runoff flooding or erosion on adjacent properties it shall be properly channeled from the storm drains water ques Pond or other public drainage facilities and that you have other sections of your ordinance addressing storm water runoff and how an erosion control on how all those items are supposed to be handled it's not practical to say that no water shall run off a property um in its natural condition water is running all over the place and we can't there's other riparian statutes and things that manage that and this is just problematic this I don't somebody could make a complaint about their neighbor's property causing some Lear off on theirs and you have an ordinance that says that shall not happen so that one we're not actually supposing to put anywhere else we're justos proposing to delete that anybody want to talk about that part to start I have a question because I've got a lot of Falls new houses developed and the way they landscape the art and now runs the water from their DS down across the neighbor's is that covered somewhere on that kind of micro level no not necessarily um I mean most water is running on more of a sheet flow maybe across somebody's property um and that's the items that I'm trying to pick up by deleting this I just had it somewhere else lak front property where the natural slope of the land is a definite slope and of course this person at the bottom is complaining that these people sumps are going off and the water is running there um there's not really anything we can do about some of that stuff um especially betters and where they're directing them I'm just saying some of the development where we have houses that are closer to each other you know there probably was a ditch there at some point put in the house and now it's all running through the neighbor's landscape yard I mean the engineers been involved in F like think yeah and sometimes times as part of a development there'll be a a drainage cell or something that's supposed to be constructed to take that water ultimately from one property to another to the store onon um and we get situations where somebody the Landscapes and they block it up and redirects the water all of those things you know in some situations it's something that if it was if they change the course of a drainage and utility easement that we have it's something that the city will get involved and then in other cases where um they're directing their some pumpe somewhere you know we can ask them to move in to be good neighbors but um there's also maybe no place that it can go so that's you know that isn't going to necessarily impact somebody else um so if somebody did block J MH they have two cases one they didn't want the water running to their property right two they didn't want the water running off the proper on hunting so we had graines that now ran through Land Street backyards we have a pond which they got what they wanted but so their neighbors got didn't want in the backyard that's still something that we have regulation on so that if we have a rage easement and it's blocked in redirecting water we didn't intend it to that you still can because you have that greenage it was part of something constructed to serve a certain purpose typically then with certain elevations and it was all model to to do that um and then City will go in if somebody makes that kind of a mod that to be repaired back to its original condition um so this is more whether we can um on those kind of micro things like the um where that some P might be directed to or the or the gutter down spouts with some Grand tile following it um you know I don't know that there's a lot there that we can do but I don't know that there ever was I think it's hard to poop where that water is really coming from affect impervious surface to build a fairly large house and out building and Pa Drive of that now the amount of water that's not running into a retention time but maybe own some neighbor's property that come up in instruction so that a lot of times will come up with the original plat that's being done for neighborhood and so and that's one of the items that we've been seeing some push back on from um property owners who are caring their property into Lots so there's rules about when those are supposed to be constructed and they're supposed to be done as part of the original plat of the neighborhood but a lot of folks don't consider themselves to be developers and don't want to um put up money for a letter of credit and do all the work associated with that um so that that's where we should be addressing that is up front is I guess what I'm saying um instead of it's nearly impossible to do it later most people buy Lots assuming all that was already done your building inspectors assume that that was already done uh I'm not so so I've seen them where they come in somebody move in be there a few years walk out there and dig a pond right in their yard block off the drain tiles and everybody else start to live with nobody checks to see what level they put to C never they come and did any cber is 2et higher when supposed to be cious underly we just we're not doing nothing okay we experienced it this past week and I tell you what you can just see where they bu the ducts are Beauty now another good example was the L lot which one it's long before your I think there was at least a dozen Rin tiles they cut all of those off so people had one and two fet of water in their basements that to me that was the city's responsibility to see that those rain tiles weren't Disturbed or do something above it all that water run into those people's houses but what um was when did those get cut was it in the process of building a home in the process yeah they come by to to oh put your septic in um I got one across the road from me they put the all the drain tiles got cut off the water comes underneath the road now and we've got layers of hard pan that water runs right underneath that I've got a piece I can't even Farm because of of the guy and put the sepc in and screwed it up all I got is Big BL of War they'll run down there most of the summer you got into those hard band lers and you can see quite a few of them around if you got a sharp eye for it and I got one right to the west of me and the guy didn't put the pond in until after he built the house okay the water run down behind his barn there was a drain tile put in there many years ago I remember what it was put in there and you don't make water run up here it doesn't have and that cul is way too high so but here everybody else has got to live with that you know so it it's not not necessarily good because we want your field and wonder what this was never wet before and you got probably $100,000 tractor out there that's sitting stuck what do you do about that you know and but you tell them that his water is is in the wrong spot and they say bad no s is it possible that we in light of The Experience we've had over the years and some here sure because of the development going here without drain pil that's probably some complaints I've had surface that probably wasn't calculated and not people's property to the Wetland property and certainly the drain to I'm concerned I know by some of the over here one we address tonight because that land is quite often too and all that drain tiles that in there I don't know I'm hoping they calculated that we need to just be aware that when we do that no no run off is one thing but we have to there's something in between no run off and natural runoffs so the um the drain tile question is something that does get put into I think every one of Bob's development agreements where he says that there can't be any changes to the drain p and then development agreement gets recorded and that's responsibility then of those Property Owners um both the developer and ones that are um gu change over there yeah I'm want bring over there but but we would necessarily know about it is the thing usually we have no idea where these sprin piles are [Music] dit when you plug up those tiny ditches everything upam is it we don't know where they're at in a lot of places that is a fact oddly enough I bet the farmer knows a little bit more about it than we do some do some well you know who finded it you got one that drains off your property or your dad's property down there and CT was too high for 40 years they lowered the culbert and now and they went the other side of the road nobody wants to have the dirt move down there water's still high I'm curious when you're saying the culs at the wrong elevation are you talking about culverts under driveways or like ones that are going under roads roads yes you get then has terrific amount of water we do lots of water that's what makes us seem we we got lot of that's why we can't do five houses or four houses per it just doesn't work well I'll see if there's something can right here like said my when I read it my eye was towards um not having language that would cause someone to say but your gance says this not a drop can be coming on my property because that's what I'm saying to revisit we have somewhere from not a drop to right there is there's so much natural flow out here we have to yeah I'll see if there's something else we can do there um but I'm also going to suggest that some of it um no different than if somebody puts their fence say in the wrong spot or some of that some things are private property disputes too that we have to decide whether we want to open up an opportunity for the city to be caused to get involved in so but I will take a look at that section and see what we can do there um Mr did we have a uh something about after 9:00 we take motion C you missed that meeting didn't you that was last meeting that was last meeting we're not GNA open any new subjects after :' sorry dude no just have just want to make sure continue was might be all right so then [Music] so in in temporary habitation are you suggesting that mobile homes are a manufactured home well in your Rivage your language has it being RVs and everything is mobile homes a new defition so I just kind of PL that one for now but wanted to talk with City attorney about that section too okay so we're just visit that to yeah um about the highlighted one next one exposes no you skipped what what do you want to talk about that um the whole section is just one because it's all mobile homes a lot of times the storing of RVs and the living in RVs is a nuisance thing and not a zoning thing most people orces so right now let's just F to see if they want to move that or not what's say trailer instead of mobile woman that one says trailer right there's a lot of languages all kind of interchangeably in here if we keep it we need to update some things but I'm not convinced it doesn't a lot of it doesn't just go away with the exception of your opt up you and everybody else sto but is a only one umite the dynamite one I just like because the use of dynamite it says you have to secure an inter use perit to do that but there's also if it's an inter use should be listed in a category in a zoning District somewhere and it's not um there's a lot of interim uses and conditional uses that just show up like this in place within the ordinance um Fly blocks was another one the fly block driveways 15 ft off of the lot line is another one none of those things are in the um Z District C so I just like that one this ding food for fishing theoretically it's for any use prohibited yes you wanted to demolish a building right now that it would normally be a dynamic kind of project you would need to secure this iers I guess [Music] [Music] there's a lot of highlights next SE there certific VY which well and that one I displayed actually because it isn't nuisance related either no but it's building code related yeah and we have in a few locations where we have stuff that might conflict with other folks okay so that one's displayed till we can all talk about that one as well as as the team about whether that that one needs to um whether that one FPS with anything and should just go away it's not a standard typical thing to have an his zoning or um so I flag to this one because you have a lot of things that are an attempt to not permit manufactured homes by specifying what a house has to look like characteristics it has I know this because I remember writing people's ordinances in the 90s and um you still have them um but there's Federal preemptions related to manufactured homes that are post 1976 um and constructed under federal laws and typically you need to allow them wherever you allow single family HS and yet by having no less than 24 ft wide at its narrowest Point those are attempts to not have manufactured homes so again this part is really just a play to confer with your City attorney to see if this should really be taken out because of federals see said that was 1976 when was the the HUD ordinance was 1976 related to manufact PS this stuff show I'm not King this exact language or some very close version to it shows up in many people ordinances at least back in the 90s to early 2000s square foot limit a lot of people have a square foot minimum for single family home but the that one not necessarily depending on how big you make it um but this 24t wide you know that's trying to not have anything smaller than a double wide um the roof pitch is a lot of times higher than a mobile home it would be you're going to want more than 312 see 312 get pretty low it is very low it's what I go to if I really can't get aordable but it's really low not saying that it's not but it's it's it's so low you actually have to spray the snow off the roof it's not I know but we also do plat RS all the time on typically typically something more commercial not so much a home typically typically but they're also prepared for the drainage of that and with plat but the building code addresses all those so so you're saying this maybe shouldn't it maybe shouldn't be there it's just something I needed to ask your attorney Federal preemption means we should be taking all this out Mr chair so J we just talking about things you want to talk to the Atty about move to Let's yeah let's move on to yards and liced vehicles so I'm proposing to get for the nuisance ordinance that basically we leave the first one sentence in there that we don't permit the operation of the junk yard in the under zoning what what does that include an active jump dard or just a [Music] warehouse unsheltered warehouse is that what you're saying well we've got one right East here not very far away yeah it's got I don't know how many cars in it but somebody said I think it was between 50 and 60 cars does it have any kind of a permit well I'm sure there's no kind of permit it's rad I think they had 9 they got rid we got it's it's visible um so even just pretending that it's somebody that just has three in their backyard um if they've had them so like for example you can see that this ordinance was adopted in 2010 by the end part of this paragraph So if somebody if you can go back on 2005 Arial and see that they have three junk cars in their backyard but you adopted this ordinance in 2010 we would have a hard time in forcing them to remove that if it's sitting in zoning because then they would have a grandfather if it's just in your nuisance ordinance that you can't have unlicensed vehicle it doesn't matter if they showed up yesterday or 30 years ago the city can enforce new so that's why we want to these things we want to move to that other section um and right now I mean in your thing right now you provide for a limit of two unlicensed ones per dwelling unit you're kind of giving them I supposed to strike that um what you put in there that could be exciting a lot of places know [Music] really because like Mar well he can have all kinds of unlicensed Vehicles all drilling don't need licenses if they don't require that much story but if you have a car with plates that have tabs that are five years old and there's a tree gr up through the middle of it that's entertaining entertaining but you know want to be a to get it I've seen the the local police over and course they're just laughing because nothing they can do so that section's probably in here too don't here's my favor got but there's nothing to St it's a roosters no I just left that one in there because once the attorney gets to look at it he might say something half an animal like okay what half an animal half fly Lama no it counts for a half of an animal unit so two of them equals one unit so I didn't you know maybe I should double check those numbers I didn't check them see it grind probably we got lots of turkeys yesterday afternoon when it was raining I seen him looking for crawling under anything they could crawl under so he would get there's too many on your property you have to chase them off like so exterior storage there's parts of this that right now I'm proposing that we keep and parts of it that seem more like new things um f of trash Etc are prohibited but that really feels more like a nuisance part instead of zoning um the placement of where these items can go um Within of the side or rear property lines is prohibited but that's still well it feels like it should be a new thing anyways if um not part of this not part of this to be a again this one's on exterior storage it does this is under is under oh this one's just part of yeah it's just part of exteror at one point we had a part of that ordinance said that farmers were exempt on some of that because you had to have old machinery for parts I don't Knowles and Mach there's agricultural rights in the state constitution so yeah guess is okay so is under the egg part is that negate this which one thewhere UMES aalif under this got a set section that this exterior storage applies to as it is right now would apply to everybody everywhere so it's in all districts the placing of vehicles CLS trailers fish houses sheds equipment construction materials firewood debris of any kind or such other items within 5 ft of the property lines is prohibited so the rest of your property is appar buring you can put it in the front yard that's okay but you can't do it on the side of rear put in the front pitch yeah right I most people would probably the put in the back job related parking the G I don't know I understand okay but both trailers fish mean they're seasonal where do you put them seasonally I mean this is this is B thing you don't want to park it outside you're going to get a problem you're going to have a problem with the city so you have to have a building just here you yeah you could park right in the front um but I don't know if that was the intent either right but in general that kind of storage of stuff is um probably better addressed in the Nuance ordinance than here because again we want to give somebody the right to have stuff stacked up for 30 years um all the new we to all manner of people that have had things backed up for 30 years suddenly that one neighbor that they can't stand they're going to call on know that oh they're finally G to be in the new I'm just wondering what kind of in say some of these things have been through the years yeah are we unleashing storm here I don't know if you're unleashing a storm or hat but um as it is it might be something that you never wanted have happen and maybe would have liked to have done some ordinance enforcement on he wouldn't go very far right now well I think it was reviewed in 2010 at some point because there's adoption change it appears that way at least for parts of it which tell me that it probably reviewed all of those things to get there probably did but that also tells me that they had some discussion that maybe it was some parts that they thought were a problem but it got put in this section but maybe it should them put in the new or instead I I didn't see was because started get all these buildings and hey I got space my building out yeah yeah absolutely and they started overing the buildings and stick building that would be November 2010 was we had one more that yeah I'm saying this this was this was added in there exterior storage because there was an exterior storage section and people started using po buildings renting out their po buildings and sticking their me here here's a really good example though is this one that was done in 2013 engine brakes are from F release breakes frequently called Jake brakes may not be used to slow vehicles within residential areas that's noise here that's noise and it's probably on the street and not on property and we've rarely ever heard of in in yeah in town oh yeah very trer that was excited about in the wrong section well most to your small town sign up right I can do with ext storage and it shouldn't be par zoning regardless um and then we have all this um Recreational Equipment stuff with the people sleeping in it that's typically not in your Zing section and should be in or being stored on a public Street Etc um all that typically in the Nuance ordinance SE instead okay all these things you're striking and you're looking to move those into nuisance we're looking to move them into nuisance instead so that you can again if you had somebody that was parking for some reason parking it in the RightWay for years now you would have way to have move it um then there's the and maybe some of it you won't choose to put back in the nuisance either by the way like this one here number of vehicles somebody can have the number of vehicles on a residential parcel May exceed by only two the number of persons with driver's licens is residing on the promises but there are exemptions there are exemptions yeah but here in my yeah okay but what's vehicle something liced right argumentative it is and so I mean think about it it would require somebody somebody would give a complaint code enfor would be having to ask people to prove how many LIC well prove how many license drivers you have then count everything then see if it fix these exemptions you know if you want to do that that's fine I'm sure we have issue but it shouldn't be ining that should be in the new I agre that um because they definitely don't want to try to track back how long they've had it do they have a rate to have it right um um rather just go based on what's there today on something like that um I know why some of these things are in here it's because someone tried to get it in their their exterior Storage storage most of it this because somebody did something right at some point a lot of this is reading very it's not standard language I think you got somebody in the city C this over time to address something that was happening here most likely actually had TPC upd in 2010 PPC said these are the new legal requirements you didn't have previous we we we incorporated 2008 and just utilized ordin it would the township 2010c okay they they added things that W necessarily all discussed we just told question doing sure 14 years ago that's they used AI to help us out so good do it um again a lot of this we just think needs to move to Nu instead it might very well be things you want to keep but so in in moving into nuis we're saying that if somebody would to challenge nobody has known us to this point if somebody go and says here's what the ordinance says and generally people know that they comp they don't [Music] sometimes um then you're saying that someone could have said well that's been in the ordinance the ordinance was 2010 I did this in 95 so I have a right to continue doing it never [Music] heard Alles matter the question is if we remain complaint a lot of main B probably um if for no other reason than sapping levels and cost of do code enforcement let's say that in any Community if we all just I'll be honest I drive through communities I work in I kind of have my blinders on right I don't I don't look at what's going on the side because I keep 10 full-time people busy doing quote enforcement anywhere if I was looking for things so I think most people do operate on a complaint basements um and then you're also probably triing those complaints to some extent based on your resources and your Cod enforcement budget you may hear once in a while that's not why I moved out to never comes up I can't use that one um the next one is these residential housing standards um and a lot of it it's a very long section that talks about all kinds of things that's supposed to be maintained in a house B with a house um how many people can live in it and check the water temp May up yeah I propose to strike all this because again it if you want to keep it zoning won't be the place really that it should be um because all these kind of Maintenance regulations by their very nature um you're not going to know when that maintenance thing occurred you're going to find it and at the time you find it you need to do some enforcement and trying to add in that extra piece of how long has it been that way um it just belongs in a different place in you of you find enough the p is connected to the I like kitchen you includ a sink ad water working space space cooking Refrigeration what's c space are you doing rental licensing some of the stuff read as well it's a rental [Music] licensing at all so anyways to take all this up because it's not it's not a typical part of Z we'll look at that so what we're doing for a process there's companion ordinance to this being develop Planning Commission won't see us because we wouldn't typically bring the Nuance regulations or things outside of zoning or something right to the Planning Commission to look at but that will be um stuff that will be gone over at a city council work session coming up in a date to be set yet in June and um if anybody's interested um you're welcome to that like it's going to be 12 at 6 yeah that's the one what will we be doing at that meeting so at that meeting you'll really be looking at those new s regulations themselves and figuring out what you want to have in those and keep forance maybe some of this stuff you don't even want to have transferred over but and there might be things that they're adding for the sake of um making the quote enforement process simpler regarding different steps in the process different um mechanisms for findes or um Parts if necessary etc etc so that they can streamline thee enforcement process that may have some things to add on I think you I think you explain it well that's exactly what we're looking to so we can engage with the process and this was the first step in try to get from the side and then R Consulting and they're working on a separate part of that that'll all be brought together on the talk so in these ultimately the really set all of this stuff as a package could go to the city council for any kind of consideration for Action would be the July meeting and both the zoning removal piece and the nuisance adding in you know we need to kind of occur at the same time basically and be kind of married up with that maybe so we would look for a recommendation from you I could bring this back if you want to see more of a final version once the attorney looked at it and we're further into the next Le piece to your June meeting or you could just make a recommendation to have the city council since I hav the ordinance and just forward it to some of them we were question so yeah it' be nice to know what the attorney says I can bring it back yeah so then if you want to table this to your next meeting that would be good make motion table second any questions yeah got so if we table it then they have a speci need before that we do that's okay they're having a work session to review more of the nuisance piece of it so then we're really they'll see this as well probably in a different version because this will evolve between now and that June 12th meeting um but then we would bring back to you obviously we have questions about the stor water a couple of the other ones we talked about that I made notes on um so then we'll BR that back and we can see kind of how that's flowing and make any recommendations that you want to the city Cil okay any further discussing see them they fix thing to do is IM [Music] motion to meeting a motion meeting [Music] say that was the night just s