yep we're good okay all right now we're on so this is a special meeting of the uh nland city council it's Monday September 30th 2024 and it's 8:00 p.m. and this is to discuss followup uh last week the city council majority decided that or moved to uh proceed with a posting for a part-time fire chief uh subsequent to that there's been some conversations between staff and the attorney and the league of Minnesota cities as to how that process um should go and so we're here to talk about how that process should go and what it would look like going forward um in talking with the the league uh it sounded like there were some questions about exempt uh there were some questions about uh process and if we started over uh with a change in position that the recommendation would be to start over with a new posting and their recommendations would be if we changing that we should stop the current process um as the council has a reevaluated need for a full-time Chief uh the attorney would need to advise us as to uh what that meant if anybody in the the two candidates that are there right now are veterans what that would would mean and so uh if we were to stop that process and start a new um and so one of the options I was looking at was if we started a new process that we had post potentially for an interim uh candidate and uh and for the attorney to determine what the veteran status would be if that were the case Mr Mayor sir Bob uh if the it's the will of the council to uh engage an interim fire chief on a short-term basis a temporary basis uh first question and that always is do you have to comply with the Veterans Preference because if you have to comply with the veter pr you're going to have to go through a formal process it's the same as if you were hiring a a full-time regular uh fire chief there is two potential exceptions to the veteran preference for this type of a position uh one is that Veterans Preference does not apply to department heads and there is an eight Factor test that the Supreme Court of Minnesota has put in place to tell you know for us to apply whether somebody is a department head or not and whether they're subject to Veterans Preference in a in this in that case the league takes one position looking at it I looked at it a little bit differently uh and the league is taking a much more conservative approach they're saying if the person one of the factors is they have to be able to hire and fire and I look at the case and I don't see that as elements that you have to Pro every single one of them the case is saying these are the factors you have to show that primarily this is the the job description uh that being so the league and I kind of depart a little bit I had a discussion with the league human resources department today about that but one thing I don't think the league is looking at and saying that even in a interim position we have to follow Veterans Preference which would negate the benefit of that is uh that there is case law for an exemption for a temporary position so in a so given the fact that there is a uh exception for temporary position for Veterans Preference if the city council wish to retain someone on an interim basis for a defined period of time then they would not need to follow through with the Veteran's preference on that position that interim position uh the courts have said though that if you are using that as sort of a subt in other words you keep reappointing the person to keep putting that person back in place and then cases that I've seen that was like a 5-year period where they reappointed somebody every single year to the same interim position the court said no that's you now have to follow the Veteran's preference so you do have the right uh to engage an interim fire chief if that's the will of the council okay um in that one of the U reasons for looking at interim is because the council still has not resolved what a part-time position versus a full-time position would truly engage and so the opportunity for a an interim would be to get somebody qualified in uh to position quickly and and part of that is is you the top item on your list on your packet there was of the email we got two weeks ago uh from administrator ler from Chief Schmidt and uh here we are in fourth quarter starts tomorrow and uh there's a dozen or more items that that U everybody's been informed now will fall on to the captains uh we have one Captain who's been a captain for a long time and another one who just was appointed I believe in August and so um I believe these came up because these are probably all things that the chief has been doing this year I can I recognize many of them I'm not sure if all of them are are what's been done throughout this past year but U needless to say these are things somebody will have to respond to the idea is that an experienced person on an interim basis like we had when Frank came in uh could could step in quickly and handle these things and take that load off of the captains uh very quickly uh in addition uh we have a job description that we all received last week and I know it was short notice last week but everybody's had a chance to look at over the past week um I'm recommending some slight modifications to that full-time job description on things that probably aren't uh pressing or haven't been pressing certainly in uh in the past 2 years that we've added if we had a fulltime Chief we would like them to do um so I would like to be able to go through that with the council to see if that that's a reasonable job description should the council decide we want to post for an interim U Chief's position and if the council decides that that would be something we want to proceed on uh then I have some specifics as to U what that would look like um there were some concerns in the email that was sent out from administrator laner from the league regarding perah regarding um the um it was perah and the let's see actually overtime issues in perah um with the uh something we didn't discuss when when it was looking at as at a full-time position um if the fire chief also serves as a firefighter how does that affect the pair of contributions because as the administrator there's there's one pair of category and then there's the state uh Statewide uh Volunteer Fire par and so those people that have dual responsibilities have to separate that similar to what we do with in public works here now where there's certain pair of contributions separate from the fire department pair of contributions and then obviously if they're serving in dual roles what would the pay structure be so we have some options there that would would should address both of those but again that would be need to be something researched by our attorney here to make sure that's uh the league can only tell you what they think perah can only tell you what they think and they leave it to your attorney to do the research on that so obviously there's quite a list of things that somebody needs need to be doing um very quickly and right now as Dave's email says as of tomorrow this all goes to the captain's so the sooner we resolve something here the better um would the council like to see modifications to the job descriptions as I recommended you've got them in front of you redlined or or struck out so Mr Mayor C rainbow so these two items are from you as of today yes okay so it's our first chance to look at them yep that information in the back yes it [Music] is it's so Mr Mayor before we go through this I guess I'd like to get some clarification um yes ma'am so your red is a change the the red is an addition okay and the strikeout is in Black okay on the first one the now then Fire Department job fire chief job description under nature of work towards the end of the second sentence the font color changes and I'm wondering if that means anything that font color change is is on the email that I received from the administrator so just that's just to way it copied so was there any change I I mean without having looking at my phone to go back and forth and back and forth no the only changes would be in red or strikeouts and so if there's a font color change there was something with the email that we got the difference between the systems y okay all right then in the second page of that the one two three four six bullet point down who is going to provide those who's going to be responsible for that the oversee direct maintain safety programs for the city etc etc same people to do it now the fire chief does not go through um again safety coordinator for advising all departments within the city to minimize safety risk provide training implementation safety standards for oan policies that's that's never been a fire department thing that's why we have safe assure and that's why we have um internal training but that's never been the fire chief's responsibility to advise all departments on on safety standards then why was it in so it was in the original fulltime one right yeah I I I would say there's probably some things in here that maybe were helpful in in in looking to have a full-time position you know if we're going to add responsibilities and I think it goes back to and again I I know it was stated that uh this was never anything but a full-time position but but we do have documents in fact almost a year to the date from this came out uh September 13th last year where it was um one of the options was part-time Chief part-time something else and that might have been where some of this came in to say if there's something else they're doing they're adding safety protocol and other areas of the city other than fire um and again we we expanded to a you'll see some of this in here but to the Fire Marshall where we're going to go out and inspect buildings and and um things we've never done before that maybe larger cities do but um we haven't Incorporated that yet so kind of to a point we had back in the disc U budget discussions are we adding something new or are we replacing something that's already been done so I'm looking at the first sheet saying here's things that the chief is saying are being done and need to be picked up these others are maybe expansions on that so Mr Mayor counc Under Fire Marshall also so that is something we just won't who are we going to rely on to do that work on with we have a parttime okay so as I was just stating that um we have not had a fire marshal in in our history um we do not have an inspection program uh inspecting commercial industrial multiple family structures um and there is a statement in here about investigating uh involvement in fire investigations uh but from a fire marshal standpoint it's covered either in other responsibilities delineated here by the bullet points uh but at this point from an in standpoint on a temporary basis that uh my recommendation is uh we not expand to what we're doing to include Fire Marshall but that's certainly up to the council see the next one go ahead and so the duut is typically assigned to a fire chief will not be assigned to a fire chief cuz myself not included Council has decided to go down to part-time so those things that we've talked about that would give be given we would then be we would then have with a full-time fire chief unless we we won't have these things no this this is from an interim standpoint but a but an interim part-time but if we stay with part-time we that's that's up to the council when they decide what to do on a permanent basis and and part of the discussion we had last time is we don't truly know um you know we're looking at call volumes that are significantly less than than in other cities that we have comparable job descriptions on we don't know until somebody's doing this um the discussion last time is this a 10hour a week job is this a 20 a 30 um so part of the advantage of having an interim in here is is you can find out pretty quick um the person can keep up where they can't and then when the council makes a full-time decision or a permanent decision on full-time or part-time they will have actual evidence to back it up rather than U speculation as to how detailed this is so Mr Mayor council's already decided they want to go to part-time So when you say the council will decide go full-time or parttime they've already made that decision so unless and and again it it's been a full-time discussion since day one and not till the 11th Hour have we decided to do a part-time there was some discussion nothing was ever brought forward and so now here on basically October 1 we're looking at trying to revamp um and and I I know that that continues to be said yep even when we have an email from the chief saying otherwise so I I guess so that that does surprise me that when he said here are three options and one of them was full-time one of them the earliest discussion was a full-time position with part-time fire chief part-time something else would attract the the widest uh range of candidates from outside the city and and we're looking for a wider attraction it was like bring somebody in so they know they have a full-time position it may not be all fire department we just have to figure out what else that is going to be and Mr that's been the question that's come up repeatedly is is what does the second part of that job look at and that was as as late as the summer we were having that same discussion Mr Mayor so Mr Mayor are you speaking to this that you gave us last time without a date without who it's from that we've never seen it before and the second to the last paragraph SE says the second and likely best option would be to consider a paid full-time fire chief SL emergency manager and other duties as assigned I'm just is that what you're saying that that's where you're getting where that is that is from Chief Schmidt on September uh 13 2023 and I thought I had copies of that here but uh Mr yes councilman Brian um Can can I suggest that we since the council has already decided twice we want to go ahead with the part-time fire chief that we can continue to move forward in that direction so we're trying not to go back and and discuss issues that have been reworked so that we can come to a conclusion and get this ISS get this continue to keep this process moving forward in a timely manner I would welcome yes Mr mayor council member alers so our last motion was to um post the position part-time for a week and then um work with the attorney to understand can we move the two candidates that are at whatever stage we called it if they were interested in a part-time position position to move them into the pool for this new role and where is that at Mr Mayor um the in that situation the way I understood it because I haven't been at your meetings but it was to basically say that the two final candidates that were from the full-time vetting process would automatically be considered considered for the part-time position y my problem with that as I explained to uh the city administrator is that that may end up in a lawsuit because think think look at it from this point of view somebody that was already been vetted already thought that they were a finalist now all of a sudden uh be and and the question and this is why I kind of came and suggested to have this meeting was because if you change the process in some fashion you have different people that are inter let me ex my position if you have different people doing the interviews different questions you ask anything that changes in the process when you process and vet the part-time versus what you did in the fulltime it's not Apples to Apples so my recommendation was to start advise these candidates that we are now moving to a part-time position that's the will of the council then have them reapply and go through the formal process again okay and I'd have to send them a letter but I also have to tell them what the process is and that's kind of The Next Step here so we're going to start over and so now the proposal is we can start over but have an interim to like Mary has said it is October 1st so the next proposal in front of us is do we want to consider an interim spot before that process starts over with Target date of x correct okay Mr Mayor I'm rainville to Mr rupe so if we decide to go interm position what is the process that we have to follow for posting interviewing uh the uh I can't think of the name of it Matt mallister Martin M Martin mallister testing you know what is the process that we must use is it the same as hiring a permanent employee no it's not the same process because it's not you don't have to factor in the veteran preference the Veterans Preference is statutory there's prescriptions that we have to follow it's my understanding even though I wasn't part of that that you did follow that when you were vetting the full-time candidates but now that you are uh moving towards a part-time that still has to be followed all the statutory requirements for Veterans Preference for a new permanent part-time position but with regard to the uh discussion that was brought forth tonight by the mayor about having an interim since that is a temporary position not permanent the case law and statute has said that Veterans Preference doesn't apply so you you will create your own process for what you how you want to engage that interim administrator or interim sorry I'm so used to that interim fire chief so if that's the will of the council so Mr mayor council member Ruby so other than because it's interim we don't have to um veterans par preference isn't an issue for us are there legalities that we have to are you saying that we can make up our own process for bringing in an interm or do we need to follow some type of process that's I think stated I think you can make up your own process in other words I think that you have a lot more discretion in who you hire on an interim basis and it happens uh think of it just like for example when you retain the services of Frank Bo as an interim administrator and in that situation if I remember right you contacted the league the league had some people that were available from an ongoing list they maintain and I don't know if you interviewed Frank or Mr boils or not but you engaged his services and we and that's the same sort of process You' be doing here and I believe the reason that the courts look at this a little bit differently is they want to see the continuation of government you know same thing like an administrator your head of Department here this person's head of the fire department you need to keep having somebody available in the interim that doesn't mean that that person then could be considered like permanent without going through the formal process where you would have to follow All Veterans Preference okay thank you Mr Mayor sir do we have some sort of an idea how long we are entertaining the idea of having a interim fire treat before do we have any kind of idea when we might have something in place where we can start moving towards the permanent the uh recommendation I would have would be a six-month period um we we've got a 3month period here where our current chief is is advising an advisory role so there'll be an opportunity to download whatever the chief can in three months to this person and uh there will be a new Council uh at least one new person on this Council and and and likely two and maybe three and so I would recommend uh getting through this year as stable and get everything we can from Chief Schmidt and uh and then continue as needed into the coming year so the new Council can can determine what they would like to do going forward and have that transition period there so that this person could then if they were a candidate if they were VI a viable candidate could apply for it or they could then transition to whatever the council at that time decided to do so my recommendation would be to Target a six-month window thank you and uh when I was doing research on interims it typically They say six to 12 months is and as as uh Mr rupe was saying you know there are situations where interims just keep getting rolled over year after year and at that point it's like well now you you're not really looking interim you're just looking to avoid you know benefits does does Mr Mayor sorry sir does the league I didn't look myself does the league have a stable of folks that would fit this role do we know do not know okay uh that was something that uh I believe another council member was looking into and I didn't I've never contacted that person that all right thank you but their their recommendation they they when I talked to them they didn't U indicate that they just said you probably want to uh put up a short-term posting and find out who was interested because the uh conditions have changed somewhat so gotcha and that was is the recommendation of formally closed down the current process and start a new one and move through that as quickly as possible any other questions on the U job description Mr mayor council May Bryan so as I understand it right now our emergency manager is the current is the current chief that is correct I would I would like to at least continue to have those responsibilities stay with our interim Chie I think by by contract you know Scott you can correct this but he's he in that role through the end of the year the I was reading something which role advisory role no the Emergency Management he's he continues to be the emergency manager no that not that it would stay with Chief Schmidt it would it would be part of this job description it is part of this job description you have questions that you have marks in the red at the end that I just want clear so so the the marks I had there is again from an interim standpoint point I would say we can uh we can ask whatever we want previously the M the maintenance of the operation plan was with our clerk Treasurer and once that plan's up and running the maintenance was was located here um the uh emergency resource manual those would be documents that um we don't we didn't have a place in the fire station for those previously so we always maintain them there that's why it was a question mark do we want to continue to have that they're currently housed in the administrator's office we're just updating them right now but the current version of it is in the administrator's office um the coordination of the duties with the city Administration in order to effectively respond to emergency situations would be this person's responsibility um and then maintaining and mon monitoring all emergency warning sirens to ensure adequate coverage in case of emergency we only have one siren if it's not governed it's it's all dependent on the wind the winds come the South you'll hear in the North and from the north you here it in the South and and not the other but I so I don't know that in an interim basis we're overly concerned with Sirens because that's but as far as the the two others we can keep it all with this person and just give them a spot to how those documents um yes or we can keep them with the administrator either way that's why it's a question mark other questions on the tab description go to the last page you can see the U The Proposal would be uh this position would be as stated on the front flexible 20 to 30 hours uh we our discussion last time if they can do it in 10 great if they can do it in 30 great like the average Target would be 20 hours but 20 30 hours flexible um and the the pay propos osed would be $855 per week October through December 31st 2024 which would equate to a 44460 annually which again is consistent with what we were offering previously and then uh as of January 1 the state and that would be for an exempt position uh the state is raising their minimum annual salary or the second time in two years we went from about 36,000 a year now it's going to be 588 so in order to be exempt you have to make at least 59 588 um so my recommendation is the second half of this interim would be $1,150 uh dollar per week January 1st through February 28th due to the state mandate to consider exempt being over 58,000 and that would equate to 59,800 still well within the budget we planed for this councilman rainbow uh there the pages aren't numbered so it's a second page of the guys required knowledge skills and abilities M um both under compens must start at the top minimum requirements so we're going to reduce the requirements for this person compared to what we originally asked for with a job with a with our posting that is correct that's my recommendation um in talking with with the various Fire Chiefs um it made sense for a full-time position and the extra uh duties that you were looking at here um from a a part-time position to require the associates degree in fire science and technology um in the terms of at least one of them was a bit of a stretch it's probably standard prac they said in full-time positions but part-time and and interim that would not be necessary if they have the other skill set I and again I'm just talking to but we don't have anything but we don't have anything to back that up right so it's just all right no so we're being asked to accept things that we really don't have any info on um so then down under compensation and other um same thing with the additional information so we're re removing um uh the the probationary periods I get that um so are do we have the ability to do a performance review of this person that may be here with us 6 months if we find in 3 months they're not cutting the mustard what do we have here to be able to say you're not cutting the mustard you got to go I mean I with the fulltime or even you know we we had the um increase after 120-day probationary increase after 12 months with annual review and annually after there um um or thereafter excuse me um we don't have anything in here that gives us the ability to say we don't believe you're um performing to what it was you were requested to do when we hired you is that something that U maybe the attorney can offer language that would cover your concerns there Mr Mayor councilman rainville I would hope he could Mr Mayor oh on waiting on the attorney here no yes I I'm assuming council member rville that you're you're talking about whatever employment contract is negotiated uh with this interim fire chief that's being proposed that we would we could include language that would allow for revie views and allow for in a sense you know termination we would have to I would suggest that you do the reviews I mean and uh and I would also suggest that um you know if if you are looking at potentially letting the person go because they are in the government employee there is certain notice requirements that you do need to follow and there is certain things I think it's called lud Mill hearings that you have to give them a notice so we could put some sort of language in there but my understanding is the main concern is the ability to have some sort of a review periodically or is at a specific time point I'm just raising Mr Mayor R I'm just raising the question because I don't see it in here so I don't know how Council feels on it I think we should have a a 3-month um review if our city administrator Who Um this person will be reporting to sees something glaring prior to that that that be brought to council and um a a discussion can be had um yeah certainly I I think to the attorney's um comment there that would be part of the the contract so there would be identifying that um should there be anything glaring that the administrator would bring it to council um but there would be a a 3-month and obviously at 6 months hopefully there'd be a decision on permanent position here so can I I think that could be may I ask a question in this proposal would it be potentially overlap so that if you go through the process and you hire a full-time part-time fire chief would that person overlap with this fire chief in other words in the contract would it have an automatic maybe not I don't know if termination of the position upon the appointment of a full-time or are you looking at maybe that person maybe is no longer the chief but is a person that stays on in some sort of advisory role or you know you know I think that you know if if uh if they're qualified firefighter there's a couple of options stay on like we have right now with Chief Schmidt where he's in advisory role for a period of time um he or she um that um they could stay on in the department in another capacity if that was appropriate if they were qualified firefighter and it was valuable to Staffing um or if they're officer caliber and the chief would like to retain them as an officer I'd like to have that that option and if they turn out to be really good at what they're doing and they would be a good fit on a part-time permanent basis that they wouldn't be excluded from that either Mr Mayor Robert just another another question part of bullet point under minimum requirements that was referenced to before as SS degree in fire science technology is that your intent to also remove at least 5 years of paid on call fire department experience or is that just to remove that first portion of the bullet point my intention was just the first question okay thank you so Mr Mayor R so if we have this inter term March 31 comes around and we choose to then not hire them that that would then be put back into the requirement for a permanent fire ch chief that that certainly would be I haven't finished and if the person we bring in as an inter term can't isn't qualified under what you have removed here they're excluded yeah they're excluded from them so then they excluded yeah are they excluded from hiring or applying for the position then I would say that's up to the council at that time I'm I'm not I'm not binding the the hands of a future Council saying you have to add this back in because we took it out for the inter room I'm saying from from a limited number of of chiefs I've talked to they're saying on a part-time position that would be a bit of a reach it' be nice to have but wouldn't be necessary in their opinion um but that'll be the council at that time that makes that decision because they'll be making the decision on on whatever the uh full or part-time permanent position is they'll be posting that and defining that so this this wouldn't bind them one way or the other so Mr Mayor go ahead so Mr Mayor we can move it you can move it to a desirable versus a minimum requirement yeah or something like that Mr Mayor I unless I heard you wrong which is very possible you you again said full-time part-time so so so let me finish so I people know I'm in favor of a full-time Fire Fire Chief this full-time part-time where we keep comingling them and and I don't think that's fair because Council chose to go full part-time now if there's a new m new full Council um January 1 they could choose to go back to fulltime um I don't I it just I I don't like the thought of reducing the requirements um for somebody that's going to come in and be our fire chief whether it's inter term full-time or part-time um we agreed last time that we would leave the requirements as is um and that would be my preference to leave the requirements as in we wanted somebody that could step in do it and now we're saying well maybe you don't quite need to have all of that um and that just doesn't doesn't sit well with me but I'm only one vote so and and and obviously there were things we didn't know last week that that have come to our attention through the attorney and through the league and through some further conversations with others in the industry uh it's it's a matter of opinion and I apologize if I'm am offering Confusion by saying uh future councils may decide to go full-time part of what I said is we'll have a much better understanding after somebody serving in a part-time role what it takes to do that effectively and and they may say based on that we continue just like we are with a part-time Chief the future Council M side it's not working as effectively as they like and they'd like to revamp this and say we want more out of this position and here's specifically more that we would like but at this point yes we are talking about what the council agreed on last week to go to a part-time position but in in to expedite these uh transferring of these roles to a chief from the captains my proposal is in interim while the council figures out what is going to do long term like I say with with the transition is going to we'll know in just over a month what that transition is and and then they can start planning accordingly so so Mr Mayor sir I just got a couple things I want to make sure I'm clear on so if we're under contract with St Francis to the end of the year and this potential person could be here January through March is there any plans for any coaching during any of that kind of stuff uh from March to Jan or from January till March my other question would be I'm just going to give them to you can pick them however you want um can we I know you talked about possibly waiting to the new Council but I would just encourage us to consider trying to have something in place at the end of December or first thing in January because this process takes months to be able to find somebody as I'm fully aware of and I just just don't want us to wait till March and then all of a sudden we start trying to do something there and then lastly under that page we were on where uh council member rainville was talking about compensation is that total compensation so there'll be no additional um pay for uh responding to calls am I that is my recommendation okay and part of that is because of the two separate pair plans and and the need to come up with two separate pce pay scal and then identifying tracking the hours whereas if you have an exempt position if you meet we certainly meet the duty the conditions of an exempt and this would this would put us in the current um uh minimum requirement for wage right and then after January put us in the new state mandate gotta um so that way um we would expect that they'd be putting in 20 hours but they could put in 40 hours um if there's big fires or whatever it is they um all for that wage that we're recommending there correct gotcha okay I i' I found one other U City that that has a separate they pay very little on the U Chief side way under the minimum which I don't know how they're getting away with that um but is exempt position but they also pay paid on call and so they have to separate if they're in the par system they have to separate those and and then have to come up and agreed upon wage this way eliminates all that so okay how about my question on January to March so January to March uh you know I I think that it's it's pretty clear from your conversations with St Francis they're done the 31st um the expectation would be that in these what's left of this year that um Dave does chief Schmidt does all the coaching and mentoring and uh possible in that time and then this person would either demonstrate that they're qualified to this position or or be uh doing that mentoring to whoever the council brings in and to your point um doing something right away yes I wouldn't expect to wait till three months and then say um actually I think I had February CH be March you're right um um that they would be in that process training at that time so that' hopefully be an overlap oh I I got you okay I see what you're saying yeah there not an overlap from this this person in this position not from St Francis right yep I caught that I had to think about it for a second but I got you thank you Mr Mayor councilman rainville okay so under compensation I just want to get that clear so through the end of this year it's 855 a week no matter if they work 20 or 30 or 40 hours correct okay so hold at 20 hours it's $42.75 an hour yep it's 30 hours it's 28.50 an hour I'm going to work the 20 and if I don't get my work done I don't get my work done but I've made more money January 1 to March 25th or um February of 25 at 20 hours it's 5750 30 hours it's 3833 and I could be wrong on my math I'm not a math wizard um so if anybody wants to check that on their phone I'd appreciate it um again I'm going to work the 20 hours and not the 30 and make more money and if my work doesn't get get done my work doesn't get done a flat Fe for an unknown amount of hours I'm going to work the least amount of hours I can to get that bigger check for that bigger I'm going to work Less hours to make that 855 so I I I just I would hope people wouldn't do that but it's an incentive of work last that is that is um you hope you have the the candidate that says I'm doing the work to get it done and if this is what they know they're coming in um and at and again council is free to uh adjust that I'm just saying these are the minimums necessary to meet the exempt qualifications Council certainly U Can can offer more than that um and Mr Mayor that's that's my that was my starting point we had to at least meet the minimums to qualify for exempt rainbow but Mr Mayor just seeing this for the first time tonight it's again I'm trying to do my math I'm not a math wizard um we did get the information from the league on Tuesday the 24th but I just you know I M Mr Mayor Scott I hate to be this guy but I just want to make sure that I got things straight here so are we going to require this individual to live within a certain area to get maximum efficiency out of that position for those hours and set I'm sorry did you want to answer that first I I think it it would uh be most beneficial uh in evaluating candidates if they were in the response area to uh be able to respond because that was one of the questions we had last time was if they're living 20 mes away and they're not in the city during their 20 hours um are they going to respond to calls right um so I I I would think that the uh best situation for the city would be if somebody was in the response area and could respond even when they weren't in the city on their 20 hour but are we going to some living here or working here or uh within the response time is your thought gu are you just GNA see how it plays out I I see I think we take a look at the candidates we get okay um Mr Mayor that's a desirable qualification yes Mr Mayor you can't agree with council member Alders that would have to be listed under desirable because you can't have them apply and then say oh you didn't you know live too far away so desirable qualification lives in response area that's fair not for me to say sorry lives their Works yes lives Works in their sponsor and then Mr mer I mean I think Mary has a she has a valid concern if we're doing this for 6 months it'll also give us a good feel for if somebody is working the 20 hours of a week and when Scott has a kind of a hey how's it going at 20 hours a week it's getting done or it's not getting done that gives us a better idea of what we probably truly need right y CU I I agree with the mayor that ideally you have a candidate if it's like okay we're going to get the job done and if that takes 22 or 25 I can see that happening if it's 40 every week I don't see that happening you know past the first month or whatever but that should give us a better feel for in spite of what alers thought last fall this is more than a 20h hour roll and we do need here's the data that we have that we're going to reevaluate in 6 months Mr Mayor counc Ang and I Al I agree with the council member alers um the other thing we look you know when we looked at what was given to us at whatever meeting was us 17th I think it was and it had the job descriptions um there were only job descriptions from cities somewhat like us that were part-time we never got any feedback from any municipalities that are like us that have full-time firefighters or Fire Chiefs and um so I we made a decision on a part-time time but really did not have full information on it so but the Limited hours will tell us if not tell story right um I just have a hard time believing that with a young Department um and the things that we we truly need to get done but part-time is going to cut it and and if you went full-time that does not mean you can't go back to part-time if you find that it is now that it's up and running and everything's going good and it takes less time you can revert back I've worked in government and have been in many departments that based on technology changes based on assignments going you know duties as assigned goes to other departments that they can go from full-time back to uh back to part-time so it's not like that's not a possibility again but I'm time Mr mayor council May Brian do you have some sort of uh like timeline for that that if if we went ahead with the interim where that how things would would play out between now and getting someone in place all right so uh my recommendation would be like we talked about last week we posted uh as soon as Bob gives the okay I'd like to as the league said they would recommend keeping up as short a time as as you can um they said three days I said that's a bit much um but um my if it depending on what Bob's approval would be I would say post it if we could tomorrow and uh end of day October 7th which be Monday wait from today same same criteria we had last week um my suggestion is if there's three or more candidates we uh the the chief the administrator and councilman Brian and myself would screen the candidates to get them down to the U final candidates if it's three or or or less that we would send them to the council um to be interviewed and selected and if the timeline of October 7th was realistic then I would suggest that Council either meet on October 10th I'm out of town you out of town yep I'm not canceling this one okay um I've got something on the 15th a work session we had an organizational chart meeting okay um so we have Monday the 14th is is not an official holiday anymore so and you're back in town on the 14th Mr Mayor you wanting me at that meeting um it'd be nice but it's not necess not required okay CU right now I'm planning on being on a town the 14th and 15th back on the 16th but if I'm not required then don't need to take my calendar and it can but just so I'm clear Mr Mayor MH um did I hear the process is going to be we're going to get together as a team and we're going to we're going to vet out the candidates and then those candidates will come for interviews to the whole council did I hear that correctly no okay what did I miss I said if it's more than three candidates that would be the case okay if it's three candidates um like we had going into this final um we had three candidates and one of them got bumped out but we would have been bringing three candidates to the council so Mr Mayor C alers can we uh push to do it on the eth we can and just have that as part of the agenda Mr Mayor Natalie that won't make the packet if we're posting it until the 7th wouldn't have Mr Mayor sir you essentially have had an interm Chief in the form of Dave Schmidt for three and a half years and he has advised the council that he thinks a full-time position is necessary so you are talking about implementing another interm chief for 6 months so that they can advise the council whether or not it should be a part-time or full-time position but you've had an exceptionally qualified individual with a lifetime generational industry experience who has given you advice that you guys have spit in the face of and said we don't want it so why are you going down this road the Optics of this is laughable both internally from the fire department okay thank you you you've made your point clear last week and and we understand it's a council decision and I understand you said last week when I asked for Fire Department fire department input you said why you don't need fire department input so thank you but it's a tough enough decision as it is we have been operating on uh a interim basis correct and um and we've been told it's fine so so again it's a tough decision but we are looking at the details that in front of us and we have to make that decision so thank you Mr mayor council member aille Scott started first yeah I call on you though um I've lost my turn of thought but I um I agree with Mr Schultz we've had this interm now we're going to do interm again had we stayed on our path of full-time as we have discussed from day one we wouldn't be here okay well thank you for that and as as council member Alders has has said you know we uh we have made a decision and we can keep going back um but at this point how do we go forward Scott you want to say something else yes please thank you this is my second question the second part I had earlier um I think if I heard you correctly Mr Mayor you said that you you had some concerns or had some conversations about perah for this position yes okay and did you say that the interim fire chief would get perah they would get perah and they would get ESS okay I'm going to have to go back and look I don't know an inter employee if they qualify for per that was that was my question to the league and and and they said but have your attorney check it out so if put that on your list cuz I don't I I could be wrong but I uh I just want to make sure that we're that was that was my question p and esst for yeah okay so Mr Mayor yes ma'am does that make this person an employee or a contracted because we talked about contract earlier which would be they would be an employee with a contract I believe yeah would be an employe with the contract okay because that's not how we did it with Mr Bo I'm sorry that's not how we did it with Mr Bo so I just wanted to make sure it was correct no we had a contract he's just saying he wasn't he wasn't employee but he was not listed as an employee we did not take taxes because he also did work for other communities okay also other things well he's then he qualifies as an independent contractor if you are working for more than one in a professional capacity like myself I'm an independent contractor because I work with you I work with a bunch of other communities and towns I'm not working just for you so it's it's difficult but each time you have to look on it on a Case by case basis so so Mr Mayor counc rain to Miss Johnson and Mr Ruby what if the perfect candidate also works for three other municipalities then what do we do then potentially they could be an independent contractor they have their own and again if they have their own company like I have mine I mean you have to look on it at like each situation on a case-by Case basis do they have their own company are they putting themselves out as a professional management company for like being a fire chief where they give contract with this company and this you know like myself I contract with you I had a contract I haven't had one in years but I had one and I put myself out there as I'm as an independent contractor you had one with Shane Nelson your engineer and Cindy Nash your planner so again it all of these situations it's on a case-by Case basis and it's what facts are presented and then we make a decision they're either going to be an independent contractor or they would be an employee okay for the most part most people if they're not working for other communities they're going to be an considered an employee I just trying to get clarification so Mr Mayor member alers August 8th isn't going to work is it August for or excuse me October 14th is that the next available day for everyone Scott you're down here then I'm I'm out of town the 14th to 15th right so is it uh the 17th does that work for Mary yes Jeff yeah Scott I'm looking right now sir yes I can make the evening of the 17th work yes so 6:30 the 17th that is I don't I don't I would Mr Mayor to to Mr Schultz mea is not does it work for this team yeah it's not we we aren't obligated to not have a meeting on mea I know as people are out of town I get that um but we can't do it on holidays or election nights things like that as far as meetings but mea isn't one of those times we can't have one just yeah point it out Y no I'm so are we still considering the 17th or were we saying no I'm booking it what time did you say that I was going to ask 630 6:30 and that's strictly interviewing candidates of front of the council correct Y correct okay thank you so Mr Mayor so just so I have it clear so uh applications will be open through October 7th what is the next step if there's three or less they're scheduled for the 17th starting at 6:30 I'm sorry you said if there's three of us I three three or less candidates three or fewer okay they come all of them come to the council correct if there are more than that then they would be screened by the hiring Committee of the chief the administrator Council M Brian and mayor Pon when do we see those interviews or that that getting together then Mr Mayor uh that will have to decide after uh um Monday close the business then we can decide that at the Tuesday council meeting okay and Mr Mr Mayor Sir Mr rupy you're going to have all the information we need to be able to post yes it's a pretty short window for you sounds like well it's at this point you're okay I just want to make sure I'm let me I'm on the same page I'm right there with you you are now so I will be writing a letter to you off to get this information from you Scott yes sir but I'll be writing a letter to your two full-time candidates to inform them that this city council is is going in a different direction they are no longer offering a fulltime fire chief position that the council will is to uh hire an interim chief for the next 6 months and at some point in time in the future undetermined you will be going at least at present you'll be going and looking for a going through the process to retain a part-time fire chief but that there is no decision on when that process will begin at this point time well Mr Mayor are you finish there problem yeah yes thank can so if we are we we're going to hire this person for six months should we not have a plan going forward are we leaving that then for the new whoever is in elected office January 1 as far as what to do at the end of the March 31st and at this point I would say yes okay right and then another question I have is um is there any interest in discussion by the council um to make any changes to the hiring committee which is currently now fire chief City attorney um council member Brian and mayor Pon City administrator City administ well I'm sorry City yeah yeah don't no I I met Scott when I said it so so Council has had any thought about making any changes to that hiring Committee hearing none Mr Mayor Mary want to be part of it I I would be happy to so ad Mary have three can't do that three a lovely open meeting there it's so much easier in business to get things done so Mr Mayor knowing the the expediency of this event and knowing that it is more difficult for me to be available the day I'll withdraw for the the the hiring committee so that we can get this moving forward and done all right so if it's more than three the uh council member Ryan's withdrawing and uh councilman rainville would would step in is that the council's wishes yes sure yeah okay Mr sir I'm not going to let Bob off the hot seat yet the job WR up I want to be clear on what job right up is Council hopefully providing to us to be able to get it posted as quickly as you're looking to get it posted I just want to make sure we're we're doing what we're being asked to do with the right job right it it's not the one we posted last time and took back down so there there's a modification right okay and that is a great question because that's on my list here as well okay because I wrote them all out to try and if if you guys are doing a scheduling for a part you know part-time or full-time how are you going we going to get there is this the job description that the council wishes to have posted for this interim position and if there's if there any changes to this interim job description fire chief job description I'd like to know about it or is it acceptable as presented by the mayor that's you're looking at what we got tonight is that what you're ref okay that's in writing it's presented to you it's it's easy to it's better to see stuff in writing than it is to try and talk about it in general terms I think if you got the the notice that it's a the the February 28th date was all it should be March 31st on the last page could you say that I'm not seeing the last page of this that last paper so this I'm sorry so this go all part of that this goes with okay I'm sorry it was two separate handouts I'm so this goes with this okay and yes I have that from March 31st and then you pick desbl I have the under desirables uh lives and works within the response area what do you consider to be the response area is there a geographic area so much miles from a the city hall or the fire station how many minutes to commute I mean what what is your standard that I'd have to check for sure Mr Mayor Scott may I ask somebody in the audience so that is because I think he may have the answer for us that we've been utilizing mhm Mr Schultz do you remember what the designated work area is uh for response time if you don't that's okay we can look it up I just I didn't mean to put you on the spot if you don't know you don't know there is a radius like it's a 10 minute radius it's it's time it's was time not miles I believe it's I believe it's time not miles um it's 10 or 12 minutes I believe which probably translates into a six or seven mile radius probably no more than 10 you know what's the will of the council I need to put something in is it a within a 10 live with and work within a 10 mile radius I think that would be reasonable reasonable situation you have another you have another individual that to to that Mr Sir you want Podium so jury strike 1 19070 lithium street I'm going to I'm I'm going to speak to help I have a lot of opinions on this because I've been part of it since can can we keep it to the radius uh no I wanted to talk about how to help okay then the radius is the only question right now then you can look up the league of Min City thank [Music] you Mr Mr Mayor I believe also I think it would be in everyone's best interest to make it very clear to add in the compensation section that there' be no additional compensation no open for in something to the effect of no paid on call compensation just because different people have different policies and we'd like to be very clear with people and again absent obtaining any other information from the city uh I think that lives and uh something to the effect of lives and works within a 10 mile radius of the city fire hall I think that's what you're talking about how fast can somebody respond is that what you're looking for yeah yes yes okay Mr beor how's my rainbow given now is 36 square miles um I would think we'd say 10 miles from our borders um because if you're going to take 36 square miles and you're going to part of that's already going to be chewed up and so from borders your yes that be my preference I do have a comment on that and I'll stick to your Bo question thank you you're you're asking for an administrative person to manage a fire department and no matter how many duties we could list down here some of these I actually wrote um you're going to cut the time in half I would have a response plan this isn't a firefighter you're looking for you're looking for someone to get you to the next step all right if you go to 10 miles you're going to get a volunteer captain or something like that who who's not going to have the experience of so for the greater good of our community go find someone who knows what they're doing quickly and start to hire people within the department so we don't have to keep hiring in train the people in the department to do the job all right anything else Bob yes I still need to know exactly and then this the devil is in the details I need to know what your direction is with regard to response time do you want to have response time in there do you want to leave it out do you want a specific miles a specific number of minutes from what you know what is it that I'm supposed to make sure is in here by tomorrow who uh who asked for the response time to be in there there has been discussion and R was that you CU it wasn't any we talked about it earlier so it's that's why I'm asking the questions I'm confused it's not we can leave it out you can't okay anyway so it can be I mean we said to move it to if we wanted some response time in there we said to move towards desirable so it is in the desirable category but if you are saying that people may it may if you put that in the desirable category it may limit the number of candidates you get applying for the job that's what you need to look leave it out [Applause] okay and can I ask who Jeff Mr Mayor did you did you prepare do you have this where you could email this over I could yes yeah that would be helpful because if you want me to make changes and get this in final form to get it over to Scott I'll be happy to do that and I'll be happy to take a look at if interim uh employees get perah and ESS my guess ESS is a mandate it doesn't really make any differentiation between it's based on the number of hours work is what I call it's a new statute I haven't really worked at it with it that much but if I remember right off top of my head it was based on number of hours worked so they may well qualify for ESS perah that has their own requirements and I have to go look that up I don't know that off the top of my head and Mr Mayor May Brian for attorney rupe that was that was included in the part of the email from the league saying that that had to be considered so I think that's where the discussion is going on sure yeah and that's and if and based on the information that obtained from that I have your blessing to add that in the compensation area mhm yes okay and then is there some document that is going to be put together with this job description that you guys have used in the past or do you have it about you know the timeline for where applications do I haven't seen any of the packet that you guys have used historically already and what documents do you have and can you provide that and then do you want what information in addition to a job description do you want to have as part of this I I'm not certain what was off the top of my head what was posted the first time so if there was background information given on the city or do you know Scott uh I'd have to look but I don't believe so I think it was just a job description that we posted up there and there was there any document that told people how to apply where to submit applications deadlines for submitting applications when the interviews would be you know the basic things that we've been discussing here tonight yeah so there was a posting that was added to it I can get you that information if you want but that would be great if you want if it was if if I'm being tasked with putting this packet together I'd like to see what you have already why reinvent the wheel okay all right so with that the understanding is you using the template we had before for basically you'd put it together um end of business October 7th interviews to be conducted on the 17th Mr mayor council member so so at least the current plan would be then if the regardless of how many candidates there are if there's more than three they would have to be vetted by the 17th and then that all the rest of the remaining interviews would be all the the three remaining interviews would be done on the 17th is that correct okay just making sure and Mr May on the 17th we'll have like a interview packet questions so that we can have the same questions for all the candidates correct that is correct are you planning on using the same questions that you used for the fulltime or are you looking at changing that and and if you are looking at changing the questions when are you looking at changing them because it's not something you can violate the open meeting law by communicating with each other I think this question should be done that so again if if you already have valid questions that work for you and I I have not seen them but if you have questions that work for you then I would suggest you operate with those same questions they were for a full-time Chief this is for an interim Chief it doesn't there the duties are primarily the same but if if you were going to change it then I would suggest you either schedule another meeting tonight or we we get a copy of that and work through those questions now because otherwise you're going to have to have another discussion so in those those questions um since we can't uh talk about them as a councel without being an open session and then you have the questions will either be out there in the open for all the candidates to see or the committee would have to come up with the questions if you guys are doing it by city council then arguably yes people could have an advantage if they went and watched your video if you were doing it by committee maybe it's the committee that is going to vet or or screen four or more uh candidates then arguably you would not be violating the open meeting law to have those people put the questions together but somebody if you're going to change the questions somebody needs to do that and you either do it in an open session as a group or you delegate that test to one of your uh committees Mr Mayor coun Bri I don't think the hiring committee should be able to to work with um staff to come up with the questions that are um applicable to the interview all right so we'll have hiring committee work with staff on questions if there's a TW stage process here we'll come up with two sets of questions if there's a single stage we'll come up with that list for the council and when would a anticipated final decision are you are you looking at that sometime after the 17th are you looking at talking about it at the meeting after you're interviewing people on the 17th when are you making a final decision I recommendation will be on the 17th council's thinking yes that should be able to work so Mr Mayor rville the same hold true that on October 7th if we've got three or less candidates we'd make the decision on October 7th make like decision if there are three or so I have that if it's the 7eventh if there's three or less it comes to the city council so on that day are we making a decision I had I had different notes I had October 7th application deadline closes so all of the applications I have it wrong okay all right sorry my apologies and I think you are going to try and do a much faster uh next meeting but uh life got in the way applications so Mr Mayor Natalie you want to make sure that the action item correct the higher ing committee will work with staff to come up with the questions and bring them on the 17th if there's more than three candidates there'll be a a set of questions prior to that to screen down to finalist okay if there's not then they will have that for the council available to the council to use on the 17th thank you anything else Bob you got anything else I do not I think I stand and if I don't I'd like the council's permission to clarify with Scott tomorrow and if necessary we can get a hold of of the mayor to make sure that we've got the process done is that acceptable y so I'll put this stuff together first thing in the morning and get this over to Scott and let him review it and read it and then um in addition where are you presenting this information are are you going to put it on the league bulletin are you going to just put it on your website where how how are you going to get the word out there to the community that these this position is open and trying to attract the best quality candidate typically we do on the website and the league and the league typically sends it out to other sources that they have and can the league do all of that in a basically assuming tomorrow you know sometime tomorrow it goes live goes on the the website it get sent to the league can they get this disseminated to all likely candidates and they have a chance to reply by October 7th well their recommendation was three days okay they get it up quick they do okay I just I'm just not into that level but yeah they get it up quick okay and then we'll take care of getting on the website right away okay so Mr mayor council rainville um so we said that the league sends it to other sources are those other sources do they include our professional firefighting uh firefighters organizations Chief associations and I I can only assume I do not know well we need to make sure that those are included in it anything else all right seeing and hearing none a motion to aurn motion to aurn I'm sorry did you make a motion to no did this need to be done in an official motion and a vote yeah that's I going to say is that what you so so yes I would take a motion to um post the uh job description and uh the opening modifications as discussed tonight and um and to hit the time frames that we're talking about end of day October 7th and interviews on the 17th final interviews so that's a motion do we have a second second any other discuss s anything else count on that all right all those in favor of the motion signify by saying I I I opposed n motion carries I I'll take that motion to adjourn so moved all right second that we are adjourned mayor will you hit the button please why do you have a Flor item sign up sh if you don't actually have