All right. Well, uh, welcome to our, uh, work session dated Monday, July 13th. We have three items on the agenda. And Lauren, you want to take roll call? >> Sure. Uh, Council Member Wy >> present. >> Council member Tradewell >> here. >> Mayor Ralph >> here. >> Council member West >> present. >> Council member Bray Johnson >> here. >> Right. I'll let you take it from here, Lord. >> Sure. Uh as mayor indicated, three items on the uh agenda tonight for this work session for discussion. Uh the first one is updates to the cannabis hemp registration ordinance and uh city attorney Joe Sathy is here remotely tonight to uh give us an overview of those updates and then there is an item on the consent agenda of the regular meeting tonight to act on those. >> Are you here Joe? >> I'm here. >> Yes. >> Fantastic. I can jump right in. >> These are uh in the legislative session and I think we we anticipated for a couple years like liquor >> uh there's going to be a cannabis bill probably every year. >> So these updates to the city's cannabis ordinance are a result of this year's changes. the the most significant of those changes >> um currently and when adopted the city was able to I think as everybody calls cities are required to allow one cannabis retailer >> uh based on your population which was under 12,500 >> but then there was the option to allow allow no retailers if there were a certain number within the county. >> This year the legis that countywide limiting availability. >> So the update that you have removed that provision. So again limit one but no longer are zero if there's a certain number of county. Has anybody questions on that? >> Does like G wills count towards that number or because they sell hemp products? >> Got it. >> No, the hemp edible retailers do not count toward. >> Do we have an opportunity then to tighten up our requirements as to where they can be? That's a good question. We can review further the restrictions that are in both the city code, but when drafted um they were about as restrictive as I think they're restrictive as they say we could allow. Um so I'm not sure there's opportunity for more restriction on it. further >> change the zoning code update. >> So, are we allowing one now or did we go with doing the average with the county and stuff? >> We we currently don't have any. >> We don't have any. But did we are we allowing for one? Did we >> So, really, we don't need to change anything if we're okay with just one, right? Well, sorry. I can I can clarify that currently says no one if there's x number in the county >> and that x number one for 12,500 county >> resision. So now we will just say >> the city of allows one. >> Yeah. I think what John's talking is the zoning part of the locations of where they can be. >> Right. No, I realize that's what he's talking about. >> Yeah. >> But we were pretty tight on that. I thought last time around as it was. >> I think we were. >> I don't know how tight we can go. I mean >> I mean maybe we can go tighter, but we'll look at it. But >> I don't see why we don't just look at it and then we we refresh ourselves >> in the topic a little bit. So if we get questions from people, it' be nice to be able to answer them factually. Eventually the state will change and you'll you'll have to >> oh this is going to be >> it'll be mandatory that you do have ongoing >> it's going to be ongoing for years. >> So the question I have for you Joe or Lauren >> I I think John's idea is good to at least if nothing else at least just review it but then is there a timeline because we probably shouldn't vote on this during our meeting tonight because then all of a sudden if somebody was to come and apply now we're trying to change the zoning. Do you see that being a problem or am I overthinking it? I think I can I think uh you can vote on this amendment here tonight part >> of the cannabis >> um package and then we can look at and bring back the additional item for considering that works. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah, I think so. >> I just think if somebody was to put in an application between which zoning are they going to go off of? Probably what the current zoning is. >> Yeah, we're not >> Go ahead, Joe. >> I was say yes uh when the application, >> right? So, it kind of goes back to the original question is do we need to vote on this tonight or could we bring this back to the next meeting after we see what the zoning requirements are to see if they could be changed? >> Yeah. What's the timing? >> Yeah, understood. Uh, you can wait. >> Um, you do not have to vote tonight. We could bring back the full uh cannabis can package again. Um, but on August 1st, this countywide limit will be out of statute, >> meaning that you the city would not be able to use the language in it currently to limit based on county number. So basically, you would just follow on August and the city would not reflect what's in the statute >> and then that's that's okay because we would just follow the statute, >> right? So, we could move this to the next one sometime in the next week or so. Maybe Lauren, you could send us out what this zoning is and then at our next meeting if there's any discussion about it, we'll have it and then vote on it. I don't know if you would have to be that meeting or not. I feel like we kind of already know what the rules are, but >> sure. Unless anybody thinks otherwise. >> I'm fine with that. >> I'm fine with it. >> All right. Like I say, I'll I'll leave it up to Lauren. I don't know Joe if you have to be there for the next one because I think we're going to look at it be like there's nothing really we can do here anyways and vote on it and be done with it but >> yeah of course >> but appreciate the the information. >> Yeah, absolutely. Any other questions on the other changes for them know we can make sure. Yeah, I'd say maybe Lauren if you could send it out this week and maybe beginning of next week if any of us have a question we could message you about it look into it. >> I'll send out that buffers map that we created from all the different types of uh schools, daycarees, public uses and then the language. >> All right. Well, anybody has anything else? We move on to item two. Thanks, Joe. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Is he not going to stick around for like the cemetery talk or anything? If we had any legal questions on that? >> Uh, I didn't think about that. I didn't ask him to. I know he has a meeting at 6. >> Is he going to be on that meeting? No. >> Okay. I'm just thinking we might have some legal questions on if we go for this or don't go for this. I guess if he's gone, he's gone already. Now back. >> I mean, they're not making a decision tonight. It's for discussion. I think if there are a list of questions, we can certainly get them to him for him to answer. >> Um I can I mean, I'm sure he could pop back on for if you wanted. I'm just thinking if we're already paying him to be here tonight. >> Is he charged by the 15 minute? >> I don't think he usually does that. But uh if he did, we just call him up and tell him, ask a question, get off the line. I just think I don't know. Maybe there won't be any question. I guess it depends on how the talk goes what we discuss, >> right? We'll just wait for a second. See what he comes up with. >> I don't anticipate this. a lot of discussion but >> no I don't think it would be either >> but then again we've said that before and then two hours later said tonight we'll be done by seven >> yeah and then next thing you know it's 8:30 Was it you that said that the um that the cemetery wasn't accepting people anymore or was it them that said that? >> She said that she's not. She told me that she's not because she doesn't have anybody to help bury anyone and she doesn't have the capability to sell many. I thought the barrier guy was a vendor that they've used for >> Well, the guy that digs the graves. Yes. But her husband goes out and sells the graves and lets people >> pick where they want them and he runs all that stuff and he can't do it right now. >> All right. So, we can't put people in the ground because we can't sell a plot. Well, they can't sell a plot, but they don't have somebody to go coordinate everything to tell the digger where to dig. >> Okay. >> The digger doesn't >> an empty spot. >> How's that? >> Oh, wait. >> Uh, for those that might be at home watching, do you want to give a little summary of what we're even talking about here? Y >> uh at the last council meeting I did provide you with some documents that the West Oak Cemetery Association had submitted to the city. Uh I guess backing up a little bit, the the cemetery association approached the council last fall about the city taking over the cemetery. Uh city listened to their presentation. They came back again earlier this year uh with another request for the city to take over the uh ownership and operations of the West Oakrove Cemetery Association. The council asked them to do a check a couple other places. Uh Anoka County and also the Cedar Cemetery Association. The West Oakrove Cemetery Association did make those two contacts. both other both entities declined taking ownership or taking over the cemeteries uh both in Noa County and the other uh cemetery in town. So they are again asking the city to take over the uh the operations. Sounds like the uh board's health is declining um and age is increasing um and there is nobody stepping up. So they are requesting the city to consider taking this over. Um, so what I've included in the packet was basically the request of the council from the last meeting. All the information that's been submitted basically from the last couple meetings where they presented to us. Um, Joe has not responded. He I know we had another conflict with the six o'clock. So when he had another meeting, he may be driving. >> Well, if we have questions should be directed to him. I guess um I know we've been talking about this for I don't know probably a year thereabouts. I don't know if anybody has any questions. Um I can't remember if it was council member Ray Johnson or myself. I honestly don't remember but one of us requested to put this on a work session. So um honestly I don't remember who it was. Maybe it was both. But it >> was both of us. >> U figure here we are. We can talk about it. Um, you know, I think at the end of the day, no matter what way it goes, I think everybody here has a heart and um, but yet is it the smartest thing for the city or not? I guess that's um, your your opinion one way or the other. So, I don't know if anybody has any questions for for Lauren or anything to for the city attorney or you support this or don't or what? Lauren, have we voted on this in the past? Have we have we made an official decision or have we just sort of kicked the can down the road on this thing? Do you recall? I know we've talked about it like four different times. >> I I don't think we've taken any vote on it. I think they've been in the form of presentations of the cemetery association presenting to the city council then making a request. Um, and I think a couple times you asked for additional information. They've got that information and then they came back and presented presented it to the city. Um, I think most recently too, they've indicated that they're not selling lots right now. And I thought I had heard too that they might not be doing burials um because of the the health issues of the board members. >> I I think we just had consensuses once or twice about whether there was interest. I think we left it at that. >> Yeah, I that's what I'm sort of remembering too. We had consensus, but there was no real vote. >> Right. Correct. >> Yep. >> That's my regular motion, too. >> Angie, I'm sure you got something you want to we want to start on your end or you want want to go first? >> First. >> Sure. Um, well, I mean, as you guys know, I am for this and um for multiple reasons, not just because I have loved ones buried there and I own a plot there. It's because it's a cemetery in our city. It will be abandoned, which does take time to happen, but if somebody doesn't step up, it will be abandoned. And I think that's really unfortunate for everybody that's buried there and also who own graves there. Um I kind I kind of think it's disrespectful. Um, but what I will say is that um I know there's a lot of concern about future councils and future residents paying for it if it does not have money like it has today. But as long as graves are being sold, it's always going to have money. And the money that it has right now, the the sites are actually pretty cheap. So, the the cost of purchasing a plot could definitely be increased um to make sure that there's always funds in there for the city to not have to charge the taxpayers the cost of taking care of maintaining the cemetery. Um, I mean, I truly believe it would pay for itself, but I also am gonna say there's many things that we've done and or voted on or said that future councils can deal with or will deal with. And um I think this is a pretty major thing and I really don't think that looking at what I know and when you look at the cost of mowing, snow removal, and then um somebody in the office that is going to spend 10, 15 hours max a week max to um sell plots and to coordinate this. it's really not going to cost that much money um if we take it over because but remember there's already it's a self-investment. It's it's investing in itself. I truly believe that it will pay for itself and it's not going to come out of our taxpayers dollars. And I mean I think when you look at the fact that it's been self-sufficient for many many many years. So what would make it not self-sufficient now um if the city did take it over? And um and I know that also um Mayor Ralph, you did ask, you know, in our last meeting about if the county doesn't want to take it over because they don't have the resources, then what about the city taking it over? Um because we don't have enough resources. Um my thing is that it's our city And I believe that we should be responsible to help to maintain the things in our city to the best of our ability. And I think that's what we've all tried to do as an elected representative um serving our city. That's just the heart of all of us. And um so I just wanted you guys to think about those the big picture that I truly and if you really look at the numbers of what it's worth, it is self-sufficient. It's just that the city would be managing it now, not the volunteers that are not willing to or able to manage it anymore. So that's what I have to say about this subject right now. Thank you. >> Nice. >> Uh, any else have any comments, questions? >> Sure, I do. >> Me, too. >> I don't know if you want to go down or >> go ahead. >> Um, I disagree. I don't want the city to take over. I don't think it's self-sufficient. I think at a certain point, you're going to sell that last lot in there, and there will be no additional money coming into this uh plan. So, you're still going to have costs, but no money coming in. I don't know how many years out that would be, but I, you know, I'd love to see a spreadsheet on what they're charging right now, and you can figure out how many lots you have, how many slots you have, and what what that you can figure out about when you should end with that. Um, but I'm not in favor. I think it's going to end up on the taxpayers's dime. Um, and I guess that's my opinion. I'm totally against it. Go ahead, Bo. >> So, I didn't do that to >> Oh, >> no. I actually had a frog in the throat. Um, the one thing to me is on average, it's losing about 35,000 a year in the last That's just the last four years. Um, per year. Per year. That's what it's costing to run that thing. 35,000. So, it's only going to run so long. Now, you can look at it a couple different ways, right? We do it now and we let somebody else worry about it 15 years from now when it runs out of money. And yeah, we are the bad council that brought it on. I don't know that we can let it sit there. I'm just kind of talking out loud. I don't I don't know that I want to drive by and see it look like crap. I know it's a losing proposition. It's going to lose money. It's losing money every single year. Um so I don't know if they just don't have sales or what it is, but they are losing money. Um, you know, and when you're start talking going down about 35,000 a year, don't take long to get, you know, have 100,000 go, but, um, I know we can't not do nothing. Um, but it is going to end up on someone's going to have to make the hard choice of saying no and then it probably will go, you know, turn into weeds at some point, but I guess it wouldn't be on us. That's just all the thoughts in my head. I just I know I don't want to do nothing, but I also know I wouldn't go into this business deal. So if I if I was, I'd go to John and borrow some money and take a loan out, you know, and and do, you know, seriously, and go into it if I thought it was going to make money. I don't I think it's a losing proposition. So, >> but not right now. >> Yeah. >> In the future, >> I hear everything you're saying and I feel exactly the same way. It's our city. We've got all kinds of veterans in there. Civil War. I get it. Um, but Paul's exactly right. I mean, from a business standpoint, um, and I know it's hard to put business on a cemetery because there's a lot of emotion there. >> Uh, believe me, um, I'm dealing with that in my family right now. And, um, so there's a soft spot for me for that today. But, um, from a business standpoint, the potential of $1.9 million is there. If you add it up, if they're if the sales that they're talking about, number of plots they have, you know, add that all up, um, at 8,000 a plot or whatever it was, um, it comes out to 1.9 or 1 point something. Um, but someone's got to be actively out there doing that. There's a lot of management on the back end. I mean, they're they're not putting people in the ground today because there's no one to do it, no one managing, right? So, that's a problem. um the mowing, the maintenance, all that stuff. I mean, and now we don't have a private entity do it. We have government doing it, and that just makes it more expensive on its own, right? Um I don't know what the answer is today, but u I do see both sides of it. I'm inclined to say no just because of the business standpoint and we have a financial responsibility to the constituents of the city. Um, but my not mind's not made up. Um, I am willing to listen to anybody about this, but I I don't see it as a good thing for the city today. >> It's 800. >> Yeah, it's 800, which >> isn't bad. >> Is >> 800 what? >> Dollars first >> for a plot. >> Yeah, that's like half of most of >> Yeah, it's half of most. So, the price can go up. >> So, I did add a zero. Absolutely. >> And it's a nice looking cemetery. So, >> no. Well, I guess my opinion here hasn't really changed much. Um, I do like all of us here. You know, I if I put emotion into it, it's a really hard decision. >> Exactly. >> It's really hard >> because I do know that there's people clearly been buried for a long time from old grow. A lot of them, I don't know what the percentage is, maybe it even says in here, maybe I missed it, that are veterans. um people lived in the city for you know many many many years but I also look at it and think it there's a cost to it and the only way to me that makes any sense and I don't even know if I'd say it still makes any sense but the only way it makes any sense to me at all um is if there if there is a particular place out there and I honestly don't know if there even is that it's almost like it's a company contract and they do everything. It almost was like the building inspector, right? They sell the the uh the graves, they schedule everything, they get the lawn done, they get all that. I'm sure there's a company out there that does that, but of course, they're not free either. Now, maybe it will offset itself. Maybe. I I just really haven't done the research because I don't even know if there's a company like that that even exists. Uh but I also know, you know, we're putting a lot on city staff here and you We want this, we want this, we want our council packets on Thursdays and this is I just don't know where the staff is going to add. Let's even just say it's half the amount of time that Angie's saying five or five or 10 hours a week. Um, so it's hard. It is because there are people again with emotions that are going to think we're cruel. Uh, but there's also the vast majority of people who in the city I I want to assume I could be wrong that are going to say, "Why is my tax dollars paying for this cemetery when I don't have any loved ones there? My loved ones are at one of the other cemeteries that you're not paying for at all." And my other concern is is once we do it for one, whether it's right or wrong, I think others will will follow. Maybe not right away, but at some point. And it's it honestly it's a situation that I don't know if there really is a a win. I think it's kind of a lose-lose no matter which which way you go with it. But um to me, I still look at it and I I I totally hear everything Angie's saying. Um but it's just interesting to me how it's like the counties, they're not interested, then that's like accepted. It's okay. It can come with the county attorney's and all that on there and it's totally fine. But >> we say no, we're bad guys, bad gals, sorry, bad people. >> And it's even on their road, >> you know, you can't even get to without driving on their road. >> Yeah. >> But but I I do think I think I've said it a couple times. because I think we would all agree that at some point we got to give an answer probably one way or the other instead of just this having them do more things and then kick it down the road and and uh >> we've been binging a little bit but for good reason get more information I said we've been binging a little bit >> anybody's done anything wrong everybody has their their thoughts and it's fair >> it's not an insignificant thing that we're talking about I mean the resting place of people this burial first burial record there is 185 56. It's been here. >> Pretty cool, >> right? There's eight Civil War veterans, one veteran from the War of 1812, and um that's that's just 158 other known veterans. I mean, it's it's an important thing we're talking about. So, anybody who thinks we're making this decision lightly uh is wrong. Can you run it like you do the ponds or lake George as an enterprise meaning >> user fees? >> Yep. Well, the user fees are quite it's not even funny. >> Oh, that's um >> right. >> No, but can't you run it as an enterprise fund? Totally. And when the money's gone, the money's gone. Then that way it doesn't and if we could find a service to handle it, you run it as an enterprise fund. If it runs out of money, it's done. We don't give it more money. >> We know it's going to run out of money. >> So So the thing is all you're doing is pushing it down the road for some other council to have to deal with it. >> Well, then they're going to have to be the one to say it's, you know, city- owned cemetery, but we're no longer going to take care of it. I know what you're saying. If something like that, but >> I'm just trying to get beyond this point. Has anybody talked to our neighboring cities that have cemeteries? I know East Bethl does. Now then does. >> Well, there's other cities uh other cemeteries in our city, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. But I know that mean those cities have cemeteries that they manage. So, I'm wondering if anybody's talked to them to know what it's like for them, you know, to kind of give us something to go off of also, >> you know, and what they're even charging. >> I doubt it, but you know, we did we did bring that up in the past kind of like to see, but yeah. >> Well, we talked to them. >> I thought maybe that organization would uh check into that and stuff when we originally were talking to them. I don't know if they did. I assume you have not. Have you, Lord? I haven't. I think we discussed that with them when they're here during their last presentation about looking at neighboring cities and cemeteries and see if there's any interest there. >> Well, I don't think another city would want to take over a cemetery in our city, but I'm just wondering if anybody's researched what it consists of for them and um if they think that it's working for their city financially, you know. Well, I think right now our city staff's pretty busy right now with our we just starting budget with our comp plan, everything else going on, our fire station. >> So, I don't expect us and it's not our baby right now. >> Doesn't mean we need to have a totally hands off, but it's not really our position. I mean, that to me would be their organization as they're trying to get somebody to take over. And I realize they're volunteers, which makes it difficult, too. Um, this is one thing I'd like to talk to Joe about, but that's why I wanted him to stick around. Um, >> can hop back on if you want. >> What's that? >> He can hop back on if you want me to. >> Oh, yeah. I'd like to ask him a question, too. >> Is he up on up to speed on this? >> I don't know. >> Okay. >> I mean, he's aware of the issue. He's been at a couple of meetings, I think, but we haven't spent any time on it. Is this uh down again, Lauren, or is it just turned off for me every week for some reason? >> He's got a new one ordered for you for building. >> Should be working. It's not working. >> No. Okay. >> Mine works fine. Mike got >> I know everybody's works. >> Mine looks works really good. >> I know. I'm not into electronics. >> Get batteries first before you get a lot of Maybe >> while you're pulling that up, >> go up to the next next topic. >> You know, the thing about it is too is that like we've all been saying while you're pulling that up, Lauren, is that >> if this wasn't a cemetery or maybe something for a veterans type thing, we probably be having this conversation. If it was any other place in the city, we wouldn't even be having it. So whether or not we should be talking about it shows that everybody has a heart. >> Yeah. It's a private business. Right. >> Right. >> But at the end of the day, if you did the the numbers, Paul, and I'm going to take your word on it, the 35,000 a year that it's losing, does the average taxpayer in the city, is that important enough for them to cover that? I don't know. Can I add something to that loss? There's been thousands of dollars in attorney's fees spent over the last year and a half. Thousands. >> Oh, you can see it. Yeah. >> And also um in the last year, any um >> capital improvements that needed to be done, the attorney suggested to get done. And so they did make some investments into some things at the cemetery as well. So, I'm going to say that a lot of that is attorney fees that went out because we had we had to send letters out to everybody that is a member that owns a plot there to have a vote last year about if we were even going to con if we were going to move forward with asking the city to take it over. And so that required a lot of attorneys fees. I mean, the last two years has required a lot of attorney fees. So, um, >> but that can come down anytime in the future, too. 20 years from now, could be right back there spending all kinds of money for whatever infrastructure or attorney fees or whatever you >> There's a structure there that is the pump for the well. That's it. >> That's the only structure that's there is just a shed. So, um there's really not a lot of maintenance besides plowing and mowing and um >> Did you just say they fixed up some infrastructure there and stuff? >> Yeah, they fixed the shed. >> Maintenance is about 16,000 a year. >> FE shed eventually need repair work again too, probably. Um you don't know if some lawsuit's going to come because somebody tripped and fell over a headstone or something. You you can't predict the future. >> Well, no, of course not. I mean I mean it just goes to show that you know there's other parts to any business that >> that could happen on city property too. >> Exactly. It can. >> You know what if Yeah. >> Another reason not to have it. That way we don't have to worry about it being our property. >> Is he uh on yet there Lauren or not? >> Yep. Right now it's coming. >> Right. >> Because then I do have one question for you Lauren that maybe I'll ask you the question so you can think about it a little bit. I'm kind of putting you on the spot here. So if you're not able to give a good response today that's fair. >> Okay. My question is going to be is what would it take of city staff to actually accomplish this? So maybe you think about it for a few minutes because I think we would have to hire somebody to do something or contract or whatever if you want to think about it for a couple minutes. >> Maybe you already have. I don't know. >> Welcome back, Joe. >> Thank you. Apologies for my uh intermittent. >> No problem. >> Not a problem. Council member Wy has a couple questions for you. The rest of us may also, but you want to start off, Mike. >> Joe, you familiar with the cemetery issue with the city right now uh with taking over possibly a cemetery? >> Yes, generally. >> Okay. So, here's here's what I'm concerned about. At some point down the road, can this be forced upon us whether we like it or not? because that that might affect the way we look at whether we should just do something or not. I mean, is that something that you think that they could force upon us with a lawsuit or anything like that? Is that likely? >> I don't believe that that's something that can be forcibly used upon the city. Um it could be I mean the scenario played out generally is uh you know it becomes nuance and then the city feels forced to take it over >> but I don't believe there's a mechanism by which the city is required by law to take over. >> Okay. Because this kind of reminds me of like a Kexus problem we had up at the ponds, >> right? Everything was working great when there was money and all of a sudden the money started disappearing. Then the city had to get involved and take over, you know, and connect just said we don't want to do it anymore and stuff. And that's kind of what I wor about with this. When the money's gone, nobody wants to do it. And I was worried that at that point, could the city be forced? If the city would have to make the decision at that time, not for any council in the future to make at that time whether they want if they feel bad and want to cut it and stuff. So that was the only thing I had, Joe. I just want to know whether they could force it upon us because in the past I heard that possibly they could. So thank you. >> I familiar with that mechanism with I think it was that >> because they're providing utility >> that it was a different scenario. >> Just wanted to make sure so I know which lawyer to go after later if it happens. >> That's right. Good. Good. redheaded step attorney. >> Thank you very much, Joe. >> Any questions for Joe while is that? >> I do not. >> No, not legal. >> Looks like that might be uh all we needed you for, >> but you can stay if you like. >> I'm John doesn't want you. >> He's not donating time. >> Yeah, he's not donating his time. >> Oh, I thought he was just going to watch TV and mute the phone. He's in this football setting for the pool. >> So, I know I wish >> Yeah, >> I know I kind of put you on the spot, Lauren, but I got to believe you've probably thought a little bit about this over the last year. >> Yeah, I mean, uh, at a minimum, staff is going to have to, you know, work on this. You know, if nothing else, we'll have to answer the phone. People have questions, complaints, those are going to come to city staff. Now, um there'll be coordination amongst even though they have a lot of it looks like they have contracted services in place for a lot of the operations, which is good. Uh you know, it still takes someone to coordinate that. So, that's going to be staff time um >> to make sure it's getting done. >> We have to advertise plots in the newsletter. >> If we want to realize that revenue of $1.9 million, you know, we're going to have to have a marketing plan or something to >> newsletter >> sell those. Uh they're not I mean if you look at it there's not a lot of sales coming in per year. It looked like 15 to 20,000 over the last couple years. So it would take a long time to sell those lots >> um to realize that uh once if and when the funds ran out, you know, then city staff would be probably performing a lot of those services and uh you know, burials and such. Um you know, are we going to pull people off the road from plowing routes to burial, you know, it's going to be a priority of service. Um, >> we'd have to get licensed or something. You'd have to have a licensed person to do the do the work because it doesn't sound like there's a >> I don't know about that. I know there's an association, uh, cemetery association. I think their attorney referred to it. They provide training >> and we would definitely want to take that if we're going to be running a cemetery. >> Um, we got a lot going on right now. I'm sure the state would want to be involved with that somehow with some sort of handout, but I guess for me, I I'm just going to tell you where I'm at right now. I I don't I I don't feel good about it. But unless there's some type of company out there that literally you can contract, like the building inspector or one of those, then all you do is you refer your calls and emails to this particular company. Um, I'm not interested even with that. I'm not saying I would be interested because what do they charge, >> you know, but um I'm just trying to be, I guess, a good steward to the taxpayer dollar at the end of the day and try and keep my emotions out of it. But I just can't see city staff dealing with all this. So, you're either going to have to contract somebody or you literally just have to hire somebody that solely they just do this stuff because if you're going to try again to actually bring some of this revenue in, you're going to have to have somebody out there actually marketing and selling these things. Even if we could say, "Hey, they'll give us the money. We'll take it. We'll mow it every, you know, once a month or whatever." Um, you're still going to have people who have purchased plots in the past and the graves and everything that you're still going to have to do something. So, you couldn't even just say, "Well, we'll take it over. We'll deal with it in the future. We'll just mow it every once in a while." Um, so that's where I'm at. Whether or not we uh we have a vote on it or push it on out till next year and figure it out with whoever the council is at that time, I guess I I'm not trying to make it their problem, but I could go either way really. Uh-huh. >> Dude, >> I'm just telling you right now, I'm not going to support it. So, it really is up to you guys. >> Again, the only way I would even entertain it and think about it more is if there is this contract company and it made some sort of sense. >> Well, yeah, it'd have to. I mean, just looking at the numbers, they um even if you took out the legal fees, their expenditures still outweigh their income. Um, and I to me, it's a there's there's a timing thing to this as well. I mean, with all the stuff the city has going on right now, we have >> bigger fish to fry. You like that? >> So, um I I don't know if I could go along with it for a couple of different reasons. I mean, again, the emotional thing um is a factor, but just to be a good steward for the city's money. I don't think we can. Not right now. That's where I stand. >> Let's see if the cemetery wants to come up with even is this company that they can put something together. But we provided a list of our priorities to Lauren and I feel like we need to stick to these priorities and this wasn't one of the top I don't it wasn't even on the list of priorities. >> There seems to be some just have to do some research. >> Maybe there is. I I don't I don't have any idea. But >> but when you say that who's going to still own it? I understand would but who's going to own it? >> Own it, >> right? >> But that's why I'm not saying I support it if we do that. >> But I would be >> I would entertain learning more about that is I guess >> because at the current rate I could see if he didn't make any sales seven years you'd be out of money >> basically. Copy and paste >> roughly. It might go 10 and no not as many lawyer fees but there'll be lawyer fees when we go to do the transition. You know, you got to have somebody drop off the papers. >> So, Lauren, this isn't really down for a vote tonight, is it? >> Work session. So, it's just discussion whether you wanted to give staff direction or >> have us give some information back to the cemetery association or you can. >> It seems like we're just leaving it up in the air. We should to me, we should just vote the way we feel and and get it done so at least everybody knows where we stand at the present time. At least it I mean it could always come back to us next year like you said after the election and maybe there's new people here that are all for it. I don't know. Maybe it becomes a campaign issue. You know it's uh >> but >> I mean it just seems like we just ended for now. I mean we're just going to keep talking. >> You know we've been talking about it for how long now? I mean how many meetings has this been a part of? I mean it's that we I mean four different ones. Has anyone talked to anybody constituents that had been feeling strong about it one way or the other? I am. >> Either way, anybody >> I Yeah. >> Okay. And >> no. >> Okay. >> Why would you do that? >> Okay. >> So, I I mean, no one's approached me about it. >> No, they don't have anybody there. >> No, I get that. I get that. >> You understand? >> Having That's That's some besides the point. If you got somebody there, that's a closer issue to you. But, I mean, I haven't had anybody approach me after all the discussions that we've had and say, "Hey, specifically that's a great idea or that's a bad idea." >> I'm just wondering if has anyone been approached? You probably have. you're closer to it. >> But have you guys any of you >> I've just asked >> just one? >> I've just asked just a couple. >> I had one tell me don't do it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> That was it. But >> but again, >> I suppose if your parents were buried there, yeah, you might go from a no to a yes. But >> but even then, I mean, we haven't had anybody I mean, I haven't had anybody call me say, "Hey, my dad's there. My mom's there or whatever." Um, >> I don't know how many people actually know that we've been discussing this right now. >> This is where I'd love to do a survey monkey. >> I mean, I can absolutely put it out on social and see what the community says. >> Well, we wouldn't make a vote during a work session anyways. It'd have to come back as a resolution, right? >> I could add it on tonight. So, >> yeah. >> No. Yeah, >> we haven't set the agenda yet. I would just let let it go for another month and at least look and see if >> Could we do that? We have a >> company. >> Couldn't we just do a >> Typically the work session is just for discussion items. >> You could add it to >> Yeah, >> we haven't done our agenda for tonight. So, you could just add it on. >> Yeah, we could add it to the agenda for tonight. Yes, >> I think we just add it at least then everybody knows where everyone stands and >> Well, and it helps the cemetery because they know where we stand and now they can look at if there's any other option they have. They know the city's not interested. >> What if we find a management company? Bring it back. >> Well, it's like anything you could bring back. I wouldn't want to say, "Oh, now next week somebody's got another idea in the next week." I mean, if Robert has some rules about that, >> right? Robert, >> no, we'd like to use them as a guideline >> when they benefit us. We like them. >> I like what you're thinking. But um yeah, I mean it could always come back, but I wouldn't say like Weston was saying, you can't keep doing it over and over and over again, >> right? Without >> at some point you've got to shut it down. >> Somebody had new information or found a company. That's a little different because you're >> Yeah, new information. >> Well, that's why I was just saying if we could bring it back to the next meeting as a thing, at least it gives two more weeks to I would do some digging myself. >> Yeah, I would too. Yeah. So that's all I'm asking for is just two weeks. Just put it on the next agenda to vote it because we know where it's going. I mean, but at least it gives two weeks to do a little bit of research to >> had two weeks >> and I'm only one person here. >> I didn't have time. >> This is all I'm saying, Paul. Do it tonight. Do it next time. I don't really care. And I'm only one person here, but I don't want city staff spending any time on it because they have other things they need to do. So if it's going to be, hey, Lauren, let's have you do this, this, and that for the next meeting so then we can come back and talk about it. If the cemetery or somebody on the council wants to do some research or whatever, that's fine. I don't care. >> Yeah, I wasn't going to have staff do it. >> Right. I just wanted to throw that out there. Now, if the consensus thinks Lauren shouldn't do all this, then I guess >> No, like you I don't want Lauren doing it either. Like we have other things we need to get done, >> right? >> And that wasn't my intent. >> I was just neither. >> All right. So, that's all I was saying. Okay. So, somebody here is going to do some type of research before >> otherwise put it on agenda and just next for the next one and be done >> that tonight. I'm saying we could do it tonight unless somebody's saying I I really want to kind of put a plan together or something. >> I'd like to do it tonight and get the vote and then if they somebody comes up with something new then they can bring it up any time in the future. >> I agree with that. >> That way it's it's a done issue until somebody comes up with something. >> Okay. and not two weeks from now saying, "Oh, I didn't have time to do research." Uh, >> can I have another two weeks? >> You or Angie or anybody that wants to if Lauren feels like going out and looking, but >> you know, I just think we should end it and and let the people at the cemetery know where we stand as of now without knowing new information. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> All right. Um, so probably we spent a lot of time on that, but I think it was good good conversation. The contracts I don't think we're going to talk much about because we're running out of time, but I'd like to have a five minute break in between. So maybe let's talk about the contracts for about seven minutes and see where we get. Uh this is one of the items that council asked me to work on. So I did just kind of outline the services that staff provides in house and then also uh tried to list most of the contracts consultants that we use for various services. Um, and I know the one the contract you guys wanted to start with was the Abdo Financial Services. I know Council Member Wy had some questions on this at our last meeting. So, I did include a copy of their contract. Um, we are in we're about year two and a half of a three-year contract. So, this contract goes through the end of 2027. Um, so they would be a new proposal from them next year starting in 2028 if we were to continue on. Um I know uh Council Member Wy asked about uh their hourly rate, the hours that they spend on this. It's not an hourly rate uh contract. It's a lump sum uh paid in annual or paid in monthly installments. Uh and then the task list is listed in the uh in the uh within the contract. I did reach out just to see how much time they're spending on our contract and on average it's about 15 hours a week. Uh that goes up during audit prep, end of year, budget, some of those larger financial things that the city has to do on an annual basis. >> So the the couple questions here I'm trying to make it really quick because like other people have time as well. So if they're saying about I'm sorry, you say 15 or 10 to 15 15 hours on average. >> About 15 hours a week. How many hours a week is city staff working on things related to finance? Because I know we do some of the stuff here. >> 40. I mean, real close to 40. I mean, we have an accounting specialist >> uh that does all the stuff ABNO doesn't do. Payroll, >> bookkeeping. >> Yep. Claims. uh you know, sure they provide some customer service and stuff, but they're usually the the last line of that before they do. But they, you know, they cover the phones in the counter too when people are taking breaks and absent, but you know, they 40 hours a week doing accounting and finance stuff, right? >> So if one, and I'm not saying we should do this, I'm just throwing something out there. If you just said, well, let's hire our own at full-time and combine those two jobs, it would be 55 hours a week about Maybe. >> So, you could take the two wages and it looks good, but one person probably can't do all of that. >> No. And you're not going to get an accounting is different than booking, >> right? >> I can do bookkeeping. >> But what I'm the point of what I guess what I'm trying to get, you can't bring it inhouse at 15 hours a week and think you're going to find anybody. you're going to pay over 100,000 for that 120,000. >> But by trying to combine the two, which really isn't a feasible thing in the first place, >> even if you found that perfect person who can do both, they're not going to be able to do it in 40 hours. That's the point I'm asking. Okay? If you found just the perfect person, >> my deal with Abdos, like Carrie, she's very nice. I mean, she's always pleasant when she's in here, but I never trust their numbers. um very it's it's happened quite a bit that even last year for the budget. All right, this is where the levy is going to be. This is the tax rate blah blah blah and then it was again oh sorry made a mistake on that. Now I realize people make mistakes but we're also paying $90,000 a year for 15 hours of work a week. And I just feel like the numbers should be more solid when we're getting them or when we want things like, hey, where are we at at the comparables to other cities? I mean, Lauren's doing a good job to try to get all that put together, but I'm just not I'm not going to say I don't like their company, but what I will say is I'm not impressed. Like I don't think like they're this greatest thing we've ever had here, but it's the only one I've ever dealt with here, too. So, >> well, it's never good when you don't trust your accounting's numbers. >> That's right. >> I can tell you that we did used to have our own finance director here. Worked full-time. Um, I don't know at that time. I'd have to ask maybe get a hold of Mark and ask him if he remembers uh we had a finance person doing or how much they were doing at that time to add up and see if it was over that time frame. But I do remember when Abdu took took over and our finance director left. They did say that they didn't know how they kept busy for eight hours a week. And uh you know I get I get the part where rates go up and fees go up and all that over the years. Everybody's making more and all that stuff, but have we had that much additional work uh warranted going from what they used to say was an eight hour work week to a 16-hour work week? I kind of wonder. I don't think departments have changed that much, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they have for some reason, but >> and rules changed. It's hard to say, but >> yeah. >> Well, it's costing us about 115 an hour, but you know, you hire somebody in at 40 $40 an hour or whatever else. Then you got benefits on top of that. You got uh health insurance, you've got >> all that other and that's that's where it starts nickel and dimeing where you don't have to pay any of that when you when you consult it. Maybe we should get other bids in. >> I was just going to say maybe if you know the point is it's not the methodology we're using, but maybe the company we're using. >> But I think the whole part of of these was or the kind of the exercise, we'll call it of is this what we should continue doing? We might realize that now this actually works and this is what we should continue doing. But I did have a mayor and I don't want to say it here on the recording approach me a year or so back and said would your city ever entertain having a finance director that's like 20 hours here, 20 hours there. The unfortunate part was for that situation, our meetings are on the same nights. So, it just seemed at the time it didn't seem like it was even worth discussing. >> How would you handle benefits? >> What's that? >> Because it's parttime, no benefits. >> I we didn't get into any of that. It was just Is there a way you could do that or do you contract somebody not as large >> be like the fire departments, you know? Right. >> Yeah. And maybe you don't have to give benefits. It doesn't mean you you can't if you want to. So maybe this maybe to get a position filled, the two cities say, "Well, we'll take what would normally be half of the benefits and you take the other half." >> I mean, there's so many things you could look at signing that contract. Yeah. >> Um >> you don't have to give benefits. You can give money in lie of HSAs, things like that. >> Yeah. And at the same time, you look at the whole work that they do. Maybe they take a little bit off our finance person here. Maybe they don't. But maybe you can look at it and then that frees up that person a little time. Just we could interview people and really just dive into what >> and I think it's a good opportunity to look at the company as a whole and what they're what they're providing. Not not that they're doing a bad job, but maybe there's another company that more aligns with who we are >> and uh and you know would do just as good a job. Maybe for less money. Who knows? Yeah, I I think it's good to always compare every every once in a while. You have to send out and keep people on their toes. And >> I think that's why we're having this >> that was IPS one days that company. >> Well, and and I also agree with John, you know, having regardless of what company we use, having a company that also stands for our beliefs that we're not um paying for things that don't necessarily represent our beliefs either. >> Yeah. Right. That'll with our city. >> Yes. >> Boy, you've gotten taller. >> Well, Lauren, I don't know. Just to wrap this building up. >> Clearly, we're not going to figure this out in 10 minutes here. So, >> or four more minutes. So, I think it we'll we'll pick it up maybe the next one or something, but at least we >> chat about >> When's the contract do Laura? >> Yeah, mid levels. >> Another year left on it. So, it was for years >> crude cost us 180. 26 or 25 26 and 27. So there's, you know, one more full year on it. >> Okay. >> However, we can give them a 60-day >> Yeah. >> notice. >> And I'm not even so much into that because I know there is a lot going on, but we could look at it now or at least we know, hey, next year we want to look at some other companies and then Lauren has a year to think about at what time frame we should start looking. >> Yeah. It's not something you jump right in. you plan on this and you because this is the heartbeat of what we're do here. So >> about to start our budget, >> right? I don't I don't want to make you have to jump through hoops. Oh man, now I got to add this because that's not going to be probably a simple thing either. >> No. >> So we'd want to do that early enough to >> No, no, I agree. All this is more is to kind of get the conversation started. I don't think anybody's here thinking it's time to get rid of them. Let's get somebody new within 60 days and >> and if nothing else, it might it might confirm we should stick with them and do another three or four year contract or whatever. I mean, it could it could come out that way. >> It could. >> And maybe it just comes down to if it's I'm sorry, Laura, you say the end of 27 or beginning of 27? >> End of 27. >> We're about two and a half years into a three-year contract. >> So maybe it's at the beginning of 27. You just put >> one and a half. >> Put it off. >> Yeah. One and a half. Good catch. I mean, we start talking to companies before we start our budget or get in deep into our budget. And >> that's a good catch. >> What do you think, Lauren? >> I Yeah, I think that would be appropriate to get quotes before you start the budget process next year. So, you can compare them. And I mean, I don't think ABDO, >> you know, they're business. They have to compete for business. So, they're used to that. They do that all the time. >> Um, so the current contract would go through December 31st, 2027. >> Yeah. So maybe the end of 26, beginning of 27, we start >> we look into it, >> talking about them, getting bids because clearly they just keep adding and adding. Doesn't mean the others aren't either, but right >> sometimes it's good to do a comparison. >> Either makes you feel better or makes you feel bad. >> Thing is it'll give us plenty of time to get it figured out and get working on it. >> Unless Lauren thinks he can get it done next week. >> I could get it done next week, but at the cost at the expense of some other things that are more >> right. Yeah. And I hope >> Yeah. No, we'll see. >> No, we don't. We're not going to put Lauren under that much pressure. >> Well, I think that's kind of where we'll end it then, Lauren. Um, you know, towards the end of this year, beginning of next year, and look and see about, you know, how they compare to others and get bids from other >> other u firms and just kind of go with that. But, um, I hope and I mean I tell her I said it that I'm just concerned about her numbers. And so hopefully when we meet next week or two weeks, what she's saying, you know, are the numbers. I realize if we're just throwing it, hey, change this, change this, change this real quick. But if Weston's still talking to us next year, we should make a personal invitation to come. >> He can come speak at the podium >> actually right in the middle >> two and a half, three minutes. >> Yeah. If you if you remember right, the initial budget work session has a high level overview because we don't have the county tax information yet. We will get that in August. >> But I understand your point completely. >> I know what you're talking about. >> It's just when you leave here feeling like, oh, actually we're not too too bad. And then it's like, oh, actually, you get some numbers wrong. It's like, well, that's not good. >> Well, when we're asking questions, sometimes it feels like not as in touch with the numbers as one should be, if they're representing us. >> So, >> so that's where I'll leave it. I'm not saying they're doing a bad job. I just they're just kind of blah, >> you know. >> Oh, six. >> All right.