here. Roger. >> Yep. Here. >> You don't think there's mics on, right? >> Your mic on, Mike. >> Um, so do we have approval of minutes from the uh economic development 21925? >> I'll make a motion to approve that. Do we have a second? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. Motion carries. Um, do we have an approval of tonight's agenda? >> I will also make that motion. >> I'll second that motion. All in favor? I >> opposed. Motion carries. All right. On to new business. CDA commission. So, the first item in front of you tonight is just the consensus to list uh property we've routinely referred to as the eshop site or uh 30 3815 Bridge Street. It is next to the river. It is a small parcel. You'll see um on the map inside. It is kind of deceiving what you see when you're parked on Bridge Street versus what is actually going to be for sale. Uh it is roughly 1.7 acres. It is commercial. It is required to follow our design guidelines as such and it is in the B1 uh zoning district. So our downtown zoning district. It is not attached to the river. There is an easement between the property line and the uh yellow which is actual property line of what would be sold. that is drainage and utility and some river requirements. Uh this property does hold all of the river requirements for the urban district. So it has requirements on site from the river from height a lot of the the tough pieces that that we're working with even with the rumor we're in and those sites over there. So with that it would just be it has been on the market in the past. Uh we started listing this one for sale back in 201. We had it on the market. We've listed it through economic development websites. We've listed it commercially. Um it has not formally been on the market for a couple years. So this would be a good time to test those waters again as things are moving around. So this is just getting that consensus and and knowing that we'll get this back on on market and see if we can get any bites. So with that, I'm happy to answer any questions. Um Kate, did you mention someplace? I thought I read it and I couldn't have made it up, but you're gonna post this with, you know, county economic development. >> It has been posted before. >> Geez, when did we start that? 2019. >> All that time it has been. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize. >> Yeah, these properties have been live. Um I think sending it out, you know, just to test the water. Like I said, there's there's a lot of activity at the Rum River Inn. There's some issues that are not allowing any of those interested parties to move forward. So, it could be that we may pick up one of those interested parties um on this site. We'll see if right it it's tough because people that are looking for a building aren't necessarily always looking for land because that building is such an expensive capital cost for any business. So having that um it is a little bit different but it's had enough interest that and different creative ideas that maybe we could we could find some but it yeah it has been for sale and just it's not things we'll see. All right. Any >> Joe? >> There was a period of time too where this thing was on sale for a dollar, which is one of the reasons where you get those questions about like the subway property behind subway there, the Ramaker property. Um, why it was what it was when we put it up initially. Um, just a little background on that where it's hard to move things. I have no issue with it being the price it is. I guess it's one of those things where, you know, sometimes you put free and nobody wants it. you put $5 and somebody steals it type of thing. So, why not see what you can get for it and go from there? That's all I have. >> Amy, >> well, because it um going along with what Joe said, it says the property will be listed at market value. >> Do we know what that is? >> It's roughly 200,000. >> Oh, okay. >> 200. >> Well, market value is what anybody will pay for it. >> Yeah, I know. I mean um I know there was a survey on that lot. Correct. >> Correct. We have done both a formal survey to clean up the lot lines because we actually received that property from Anoka County. So we did a lot of work to get those lot lines cleaned up, the title work cleaned up and we've completed, I believe, an alta survey to make sure we know where all the utility and stray pieces are. We've even completed the phase one. really hopeful that we would have gotten the salt, like I said, seven years ago. They found some old cans from a flower mill or cornstarch cans, but that was as exciting as that lot got. So, we're we're pretty shovel ready on this one, but it's still I I just think it now is a good time for a boost and they have the winter to do all the site plan process and we'll see if we can. >> Anything else, Amy? So, did we purchase this lot from Anoka County? >> I don't believe we purchased it. I think we >> acquired it. Yeah. So, >> I think so. >> So, yeah. And that's what I remember also is we acquired that land. So, we have u some room to negotiate. Uh and anytime we own any land like that, it's always tough to move it. Always. Um it is what is the zoning B1? >> So B1 is our downtown district. It um is our more restrictive commercial. So it is commercial. Uh the other challenge with this lot, we have worked with a couple other uh individuals that were interested in developing here and being that it is so close to the bridge, Anoka County has great concerns about turn lanes and accessibility. Uh >> they wanted them to share with Casey, didn't they? >> Correct. So it it really has some challenges when it comes to access. Um we've done some preliminary kind of renderings to try to give ideas of public partnerships, public private partnerships. So we've we've done a lot to try to get it out there. We'll see. So, is it possible that it could be reszoned to put malt housing in there? >> Commissioners would not recommend that one. We are are zoning out a lot of our commercial property already. Um, we're going to be behind in our comp plan numbers and it would be more of a spot zone because it's going to be surrounded by other commercial property. So, it's not a good fit if it somebody wanted to come forward with a multi- use building like commercial on the first floor and housing two and above that is allowed in that zoning district but not solely housing. >> Yeah. Interesting. >> Well, and being so close to the bridge like you said with the traffic. So, we talk about being close to the bridge and uh we know that Anoka County has plans for Bridge Street Ambassador. Um, have we heard anything more about that? >> They declined the ambassador one because they said they didn't need it now, right? >> Yeah. Commissioner, so >> if they get a bunch of town halls in there, that might change. Anoka County has um based on today's traffic, they do not see any need for intersection changes. We are working with both the developer and with the concept of the Bridge Street extension to getting a a traffic study looked at for this intersection. So, I think that will be pretty telling, but we can't do that study until the kids are back in school. So, we have that rush two times a day. Um, if that's enough to tip the scales, we'll see. But as of right now, Noa County has no plans to change this intersection. And this is far enough away that that they're going to look at the intersection and access directly in front of it, not down here off of them. >> So that's all I have. So, do we do we have a motion to accept the real property listing? Is that how I want to word that? >> Sure, that'll work. >> Or provide staff with direction to list formally list it. >> Perfect. Do we have a motion? >> So, move. >> I'll second. >> All in favor? >> I >> second. >> Yep. Motion carries. Now, you got me thinking now. All right, let's go to new business part B. >> Yes, commissioners. So, the second item in front of you tonight is a purchase agreement amendment. This is with Northshore. Uh Matt had intended to be here but got called out uh and could not. So with that uh what this is is currently the purchase agreement we have with them goes to the end of the year. Uh with some work towards looking at uh the development being town houses we want to move the due diligence period to April 1st of 2026. Uh with that I'm happy to answer any questions. >> Joseph. Uh, so this basically just locks up the property until April because they have like first choice. They're they're you know what I'm saying? >> Yep. So commissioners. >> Yes. Correct. So we we are under a formal purchase agreement with them. This would extend it those extra three months to do the due diligence of the land use steps. Um as we anticipate a either a concept or a preliminary come in this fall. How I mean I guess I don't know it's kind of arbitrary. I don't know if you can really answer that but how how likely do you think the developer is to pursue the town homes >> commissioners? I think very likely. We've we've seen some preliminary um space drafts if if that makes sense where they're kind of overlying uh what's buildable on top of the zoning districts with the setbacks to see what they in >> currently it would be 38 units that were >> roughly 38. Correct. >> Uh that's all I have for now. >> I don't have any questions. >> All right. >> No questions. that >> I uh I don't have any questions either. So uh do we have a motion to amend the purchase agreement? >> I'll make that motion, Mr. President. >> Do we have a second? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Motion carries. Members report. >> Well, we'll start with you, Mark. You got anything for us? >> Not yet. Okay, Brenda. >> Joseph, >> nothing. >> Amy. >> Oh, I'm just wondering where this article came from that >> emailed it. I think >> that that article came from from me that I sent to Kate. >> Oh, okay. >> Um, it's a very interesting uh I'll just >> I'll just elaborate on a little bit. >> That'd be great. So, I spent uh like 35 years in the trades. Um, and I was the guy that was opposed to TIFF money. Um, and I worked for one of the largest developers in the country. And, uh, one day uh, I happened to sit down with one of the owners and we talked about it and he changed my mind. Um, and and it's and and what I'm getting at is that we need to educate. We have to have some education. So, TIFF is not section 8 housing. Um, TIFF was the Viking Stadium. TIFF was the Saints stadium. TIFF was the Twin Stadium. um these developers can't do that without the community's help. And that's uh part of this is um before we had the land sale over here, my brother works for Big D, which puts in a lot of multi-unit housing, and they had a lot on their books. Um today, they don't. Um, and I'm not quite sure why, but uh, as of right now, as Sne's got another development going in. And it was kind of unique reading that article because I sne pushed the envelope and made the developer do something with the road there. Um it's part of the tools that we have as the commission um to help the town thrive. It it uh we put a lot of work into this to have it shut down and uh we did that with the blessing of the council and of course that changed. Um, we have to be able to work hand in hand and uh I I think that we need to educate everybody, not just the council and the new EDA, but the city in itself because market rate housing is not the same as section 8 housing. It it's totally different. Um, and we can get into that at a different time, but uh um I don't know how we can go about that education. Like I say, there's tons and tons of information on what an economic development authority can do. And there's tons of grants out there. Um, but that that's where this came. I I'd like you guys all to read that and um you can email me, message me, whatever, and just give me your response on it. Uh, I thought it was pretty interesting because I work for one of them developers. >> Can we do that or is there open meeting >> all? >> If you send it to me, I can forward it. >> Okay. >> Just checking. >> Perfect. You know how to get a hold of me, >> right? Uh, anything else, Amy? >> Nope. I just was wondering about this. >> All right. So, um, that was part of my report. Um, like this says, uh, I hope we can all get back on the same page and we really need the EDA to help develop the town. I mean, it's it's just a tool that's there. It's it's a positive thing and not a negative thing. But, uh, that's that's all I got. >> Mr. President, I have a question. Do you have any ideas of how to educate? because I agreed um people don't understand how a the tiffs work and I called a couple people and said okay tell me you know what is going on and one of them was the city of blame and so they were explaining to me how they were doing it and I thought you know that is really good and most people have no idea I had this much idea but I mean it was it was amazing and um you're right we do have to educate I don't have any ideas how to do that or even who the target population is to to educate. >> I think the target population would be the entire population of the city. the problem I think we run into which I mean we can do things which we have done I think in the past whether you're doing farmers market stuff or night to unite stuff things like that but I think that the biggest I mean you can lead a horse to water right and that's where it comes down to is a lot of people unfortunately especially when it's an emotional topic like that apartment building was for the people that live around it they do not care or want to know anything they just don't want it they have some of them don't I mean they don't care if there's any benefit They don't care. They just do not want the department there for reasons that sometimes are fearbased um on what could happen, right? Or what might happen. And uh we're looking at like a pumpkin patch type thing up in the rural area at one point in time. Everybody from there came over and there's going to be toilet paper flying in my yard. There's going to be I mean you can you name it. It's these um fears and some and I mean even when we rebuilt the road on riverbank the fears of that I mean >> we were going to flood out the people on the bottom of the hill because apparently our engineers are worthless you know like it's >> it's fearbased and it's emotional based and I think >> the hardest part is getting people to want to know and want to care. Um it's hard and I think you know Amy's probably learned a little bit now too since being on the council that there's that extra time that you put in, right? And some of us are willing to do that and some of us aren't. And you think, "Oh, I don't have time for this." But you make time for things that you really want to and things that you care about. And that's the thing is it's it's just people, you know, though I didn't care for many years until I got that water bill that made me care. Um, and then I didn't like the way that I the council talked to me at the time. So, we set out to try to change that, you know. So, I think there's things too that can trigger certain emotions that help to be constructive, but until those emotions are hit, I don't know how many people are going to want to take that extra time to learn it. You know, I used to just pay my bills, go to work, and that's all I cared., you know, my bills are paid, whatever. I just want to live my life and, you know, leave me alone type of thing. Um, so getting people to want to care I think is the hardest part. And if they're directly affected like that apartment building, I don't know if you can reach people, especially it's it's just high emotions and emotions never I don't know when decisions are made on emotional basis, they're usually not great. >> Not saying that the apartment building, you know, is right or wrong. It depends on each individual, but a lot of people aren't willing to give it that time to consider those things. So, it's you do your best to get the information out there and see what sticks. >> You know what what you commented on earlier before we started the meeting is that it was market rate housing where they have to apply and they go through background checks where >> like for apartments you have background checks, >> right? where that there where they're buying that >> townhouse. There is no background right >> check on that. You know, we had >> the the crime issue that they that's out there and I I loved it in your council report when you dug that up. Um it it isn't really there, you know. I mean, uh, and when you put them in market rate housing like that, uh, they go through the background check. I do know for a fact that we lost one of our cashiers over at County Market because there's nothing available here. >> So, she had >> affordable housing. Yeah. >> Right. You know, I mean, she was living with her son and daughter. She actually lived in the apartments. Uh, uh, off of Arrowhead there, the little town houses until the new owners came in and they raised the rent. So, she was living with her son and his girlfriend and they bought a house and they moved further north and she just says, "I can't do it." >> Yeah. >> You know, and so we're kind of running our own people out of town. I think that's kind of terrible myself. I would like to add what Joe said about um so I think that right socioeconomics plays a big too and demographics when people aren't uneducated they they're just uneducated could we use and again it's probably the same people who will go to city council meetings who will read our available to us through St. Francis who through our newsletter that comes out which is different than our regular news. I'm talking about I can't remember the name >> talking about the one that Michelle started. >> Yeah. Yes. >> Hometown something >> hometown. So just putting blurbs in those few places just everyone. People get sick of reading it but eventually they might be like what is this? >> And they may or may not understand but some of I mean you can educate some people obviously not all like you said don't care. They don't want to know. >> You know, it's it's funny how you say that. And the senior whatever up here is that's that had tiff money in it. >> Well, no, it was baitment which is a little different. It's similar but different. >> Yeah. Right. But it but that isn't what the they conceive. You know what I'm saying? Well, the general public when they hear anything and I I got somebody jumped down my throat with it too when um I mentioned that we were talking about the apartment because they didn't want the apartment. They said, "Well, it's going to be section 8." And I said, "Where'd you get that information?" And I said, "Affordable?" I said, "Be ready." Because affordable, when people hear affordable, they automatically think that, >> right? >> And I mean, I was raised in section 8 housing, too. So, I mean, granted, I wasn't the greatest kid. I'll give you that. So some of that would >> say you're indifferent, >> you know, but I think it's it's it's the whole thing too. It's just it's people have to take the time to learn about everything. And I said be be ready because when you people hear the word affordable, they jump to that. And it's I mean I don't know if you watch the city council meetings too, it's just a group of people that they they will when you don't want something you're going and I've done it myself. I mean I'm guilty of it too. I don't want this. I don't like this idea and I'm going to take anything I can find to throw at it that's negative because that's going to influence the people to not go for it. So it's if you're really that passionate about not wanting something, you're going to twist everything and I mean it's it gets crazy. But >> so >> I've done it before too in my in my past too. >> So how is I Sandy doing it in Cambridge? I mean do we reach out to them and say well you know what was the feedback from your citizens? you know, how do we hurdle that next step? >> Is really unique, too, I think, because they have like the township and city. And I don't know how that that's it's similar to us, but it's different. Like, we don't have St. Francis Township and St. Francis City, whereas I mean, we have we kind of do, but we don't, right? It's still all the city. Um, where they actually have two jurisdictions, I think, over there, don't they? Last night, >> I believe they'd have to have two boards, though, >> right? And it's so and you'll find with with all of these projects, I mean, I can dig I can dig back 20 years. The planning commission notes are the same on every project, whether it's six lots or whether it's 120 units. >> Um, so it's not necessarily that that is doing anything different. It's it literally just comes back to council approving it or not. um the projects are the same, the complaints and the concerns and the fears are the same. It it literally falls back to the five or seven that are sitting at at at council that really approved that last motion. So, >> it's after the last council meeting that I attended, uh there was a gentleman in that was here that was outside and he says, "What was that apartment building?" He said, "We don't want section 8 here." is well again who told you it was section 8 and and uh I don't know how we get past that the rumor part of it and uh address that fear of it because it honestly it would have been nice to have that apartment building there. Um I actually talked to Kevin that used to own the church building um years down after we bought it. I have met the guy and uh he still has apartments and section 8 housing and he says it isn't anything what people think it it's far from it. You know the >> he has to go through annual inspections. >> He has to do annual repairs and any code changes. He has to do all that and that's that's all out there. And like he said, we control who goes in there. They got a felony or if they're convicted of heinous crimes. Um, and I think we know what I'm talking about. >> But then he doesn't rent to him. >> Legally, he can't. I think too. It's But there there's a lot of stuff, too. I mean, there's elderly people on fixed income that are fully capable of taking care of themselves, but they can't necessarily afford the market rent. to go to section 8 because of whatever their income might be. I mean, there's >> all sorts of stuff. >> Well, >> and there's single parents and stuff, too. But what do you I mean, >> yeah. Well, one of the things that >> I learned through the whole thing is that if we were to have, >> you know, I'm I'm getting up there in age. If I go into assisted senior living and the state Medicare or whatever gets involved and starts picking up part of my fee, that billing had to have tiff money involved in it in in order for them to pay it. Uh so yeah, it's something that we need to open up and have an open dialogue with the citizens in town. Sure. >> Um my view of it from, you know, I'm I know I'm kind of stepping in near the end because I I could tell there was a lot of time spent on on the Northshore project. Um my view of it was the citizens that came to speak. They never got to the TIFF money question. Um, you were talking about making sure we educate people on TIFF and other things, you know, things that they're um, fearful of or, you know, the emotions of it. For me, I I thought that the three council people, myself included, voted down the project for three very different reasons. Now, this is just my view. Um, I I believe that the mayor voted it down for TIFF. that that that is that was the reason. Um I voted I I never even got to tiff money in my my equation of thought on a decision for this. It I never even got there. The reason I voted no was two things. I didn't agree with us selling the property to a developer that's going to make money off of the deal for $5,000. I think it should be sold something closer to market rate. That that was why I voted no here at the EDA meeting. And that was the only reason that I voted no here at the EDA meeting. And at the council meeting, I voted no for that reason and for the traffic. Um, we haven't figured out what's going on here with our our traffic and we've had a number of accidents here in town and bad accidents, not necessarily right here on this corner, but um, everything funnels out onto 47. You know, you when you get to Bridge Street, you have to turn right or or left and you you end up on 47. And, um, so for me, it was those two reasons. it was the $5,000 um and the traffic. Those were my reasons. And I I never even got to the point of well well what about TIF? Now maybe in my mind I'm like well they got a good deal on the property and they want TIFF, >> you know, but and I'll admit I can learn more, but it honestly never even made it to the top of the my cons and pros list. It it didn't for me. And so you're right, we need to educate people on the entire project, not just on tiff money. Um, and I I believe, you know, I don't want to speak for Kevin, but um, you know, I think that his answer, he voted no, um, had more to do with the cost of the road, the little road to get in there. Um, but that's just that's just what I remember. But I'm I'm not sure how much Tiff played a part in it for him. But the residents that came and spoke either at the council meeting or at the planning and zoning meeting, which I did go to, um I I don't recall them ever saying anything about it. We don't want that because of TIFF money. You're right, Joe. They came up with all these other reasons that they didn't want it. And I I wouldn't want an apartment building in my backyard either if So what I think could have helped in this situation. So they weren't all on emotions and everything is and I I apologize if we did this and I just don't know. I feel like we should have been talking to at least the residents that lived right there before we knocked down the trees. And it seems like they didn't know what was going on until 5 acres of of trees were knocked down in their >> backyard and safe. >> I agree. I know. >> But it seemed like we could Did we Did they get notices pri way well prior to that? >> Not early enough. I don't think >> Well, here's the thing. So, Commissioner, so the trees have nothing to do with the project. the road. The road is the road. The trees were connected to the road. The road is the road. The residents aren't part of that at all. Well, but but so the project itself once it had its funding, it went through the concept process. So after the concept would have then gone to the site plan process and had a public hearing. So that's when all of the neighbors, you know, once we know what's being built, where it's being built, um where the driveway access, all of those pieces, then we go out to the residents and we say, "Hey, look, it goes in our paper. It goes to 350 degree circle around the property that's being developed. Everybody gets a notice, but it hadn't made it there yet." Well, and and I heard you say that in one of our meetings, the planning zoning meeting or in the council I think it was the council meeting. And so from that and that's what I'm saying that even though we didn't technically have to tell them that we were going to knock down all those trees in their backyard, I feel like if we had said, "Hey, this project is coming up." And you know, I just feel like the emotions wouldn't be wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't open their door and see all this equipment and all the trees gone. I'm I'm you know, I'm I simplified that. I simp I simplified that. But but that that is my my view is that they wouldn't have been as emotional and against everything if if we had >> if they knew about it. And it sounds like we didn't notify them. >> Well, I mean, >> because Kate is saying that it would have >> Let Let me ask you this question. I'm sorry. >> No, no, no. Go ahead. >> Do you call your neighbors up and tell them you're taking a tree down? >> See, those trees didn't belong to anybody but the city. So, they really had no say. You know, we sat here and listened to these people, but yeah, I bought I loved it. You know, I had trees in my backyard. >> You're trespassing. >> It wasn't your backyard to begin with. And that's the part that irked me listening to these guys. Well, it wasn't yours to begin with. And I'm dealing with my neighbor right now. He's got crap piled up against my privacy fence and I can't get him to move it off so I can replace a couple of boards on it. I'm at my wits ends. You know, I'm going to put a ladder over the fence, throw stuff off of it. But I shouldn't have to tell my neighbor that I need my fence cleared. >> I I agree that. Okay. They didn't own the trees. We didn't have to go to them. But I feel like if we had gone to them two months earlier and said, "Hey, I just I just think that that would it would have gone over a lot better." I I'm just saying. And I understand we didn't have to. It was our trees. We could do it with them with what we want. I'm just I always look at the human side of it. And how would I feel if I was them? lived here for 30 years and all of a sudden I I know I'm simplifying it but all of a sudden five acres of trees are cut down in my backyard and no one from the city bothered to to to do anything that that's how they felt. >> But you go back to our concept plan back in the day that was all in the concept plan that the citizens voted for >> St. Francis forward plan. >> Yeah. And then there's the other thing is too is the the trees are like attached to that road too, right? Because the county won't allow any more accesses. So in order for us as a city to market the corner lot where the church used to be and anything else over there, you have to do that road in order to have access to it. >> See? Great. >> And that's that's part of what the thing is though too is again with these concept plans that are all public. They're all invited to do it. I don't know. I don't remember how much mail mailings went out, right, to promote the thing, but I know that we had we did have a lot of participation, which was actually surprised me how much participation we actually had. >> Um, but it's again people that get stuff and throw it away. They get stuff, but then they I was never told. >> You were, but you ignored it. I don't know how much came for that that wastewater treatment facility. All I know is the last one I seen was that the the hikes were coming and as high as the hikes were, and that's what I noticed, right? Otherwise, I look at it, quick brief it, I don't see anything important, I throw it away. >> People only think about what bothers, you know, what affects them. I get it. >> So, it's I mean, it's it's one of the And I get what you're saying as far as notifying I mean, you can you can say all that, but at what point too is it is it how is it the So, me and Mark tend to agree on a lot of things that aren't the government's job. Um, but then we might disagree on other things, right? So it's like at what point what how much and and even the people that are here against the the apartments to me my question to them is is how much do you want government to be involved to solve your problems because most of the time when government gets involved the problems don't necessarily get better right um there's a lot of things I mean they screwed up the gas can because politician sun burnt themselves and now you got to deal with the gas cans that are out there >> is that unfortunate what that means but I It's the caps they did it. >> Oh, it's kind of like McDonald's, >> but it's like Yeah. Yeah. So, so what do we have to do now to prevent that, you know, from one person got hurt and now granted it's one you can say one's too many and I don't disagree with you. However, again, it's up to us as individuals to accept responsibility for our actions. And for me, I mean, nobody said anything about the wastewater facility as far as I'm concerned until I got that last bill. Am I right? I have no idea. Did I I mean, if I'm honest with myself, did I ever look at anything that came in my bill? Oh, if the bill was too high to begin with, I paid it >> and I moved on with my life, right? So, it's it's those things, too, that I mean, it's it's personal responsibility again, whether it's whether it's traffic. Um, if they're looking at building up on 47, there's going to be a lot more traffic coming through here. There's nothing we can do about that to stop that. People have to adjust to what's going on around them. Um, and if it's town homes that go in and it has nothing to do with tiff, the council has no say in it. It's unless you have a legal reason to deny it. You can't deny it. I mean, you could deny it and get sued, but I don't know why you do that, but you have to have a legal standing to deny certain things, right? If it's a permitted use. So, there's certain things that you can do and you can't do. And just it's up to the people to know what's going on, not up to the council or staff. I mean, we could hire 10 more people and raise everybody's taxes to go around and hand out stuff. It comes down to people wanting to know and wanting to be involved and it's it's it sucks, you know, don't get me wrong, but that's kind of what it is. >> I do understand what you're saying, Joe. I just I just felt like the conversation tonight started with we need to educate people about TIFF. And I don't >> which we do, >> which we do, but I don't think that was what the community members >> needed education on in this case. >> And that wasn't where where I was in the project. And everybody everybody has to vote with their conscience and what they feel is right and and that you know and obviously we have to follow laws and all that stuff. But um >> I I just I just I just think I just wanted to say it again. I just think that if we had talked to the just the just the what is it eight or 10 houses right along the edge of the where the trees were and the and the businesses in front of course I I just think if we had I know we didn't have to that's been said many many times but I just think that that's the the human side to to a small town >> not to not to step on your thoughts there but I will tell you you have to also say when does it stop because then the person across street says, "Why wasn't I informed?" And then the person three three blocks down says, "Why didn't I know about it?" And it >> that's what happens. >> You're gonna find as you sit on council in this commission, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, because look, when we took the church down, the church house, I mean, God, how many people wanted that steeple? It's yours. Figure out how to get it down. This is when the place comes down. and and it was like, okay, you know, not >> not to jump off subject now, but it it's uh they had they had uh some little powow at the >> Rum River in the other night. >> Yeah, I wanted to know how that turned out. >> Did Did anybody go? >> I I had another commitment, but I wanted >> But, you know, nobody posted anything, but but if you look to the comments, >> nobody notified me. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you look through the comments of that, >> there was 190 comments on what everybody wanted >> and it was all different. >> And it was all different. You're right. >> We're never gonna please everybody. I mean, but if you look at that, oh, I want coffee shop. I want a family restaurant. I want a rec center. I want this. We're not going to get any of that without without development. None. Absolutely none. because these companies come in here and they do market studies. Um, must have been a great market study to put two Dollar Generals in, but I I really think the one >> and an Autozone next to O'Reilly's. Yeah. >> Yeah. But that's how it works. That's that's competition there. Um, but depressed. >> I truly believe that this >> very depressed area. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if you heard >> but you you understand what I'm saying. So the out when I first started working for Ryan companies, the one of the first jobs I was on was the Sears building off of Lake Street. And that was all tiff money also. And when they get a depleted area like that, they come in there and they rebuild that whole area and new businesses come in here and now it thrives to a certain point, you know, I mean, but without having development in here, and I think Steve was the one that told me that we really ain't going to get a lot till we get to that 10,000 mark as far as citizens in this town. And um you're going to find as time goes by and you sit in that chair that you could notify you could send out a thousand flyers and this was conversation at a council meeting about discontinuing these flyers. There's newsletters that they send out. I read mine. I'm one of the few and everyone keeps saying, "Well, I wasn't notified. I wasn't I mean certain things got to be put in the newspaper. Well, I didn't see it. Well, >> yeah. >> Do you read? >> I mean, that's the problem, you know, and that was some of the discussion I had with this gentleman that was out here after last council meeting. And one of the things I'd love the city to do is put in a a sign out there that says there's a council meeting, says a EDA meeting, says there's recycle day, this day, instead of these little signs that they stick in the neighborhood. So anybody that drives by these things, they see that sign. There's a billboard out there which says what we have going on. >> Well, we have our billboard over by the community park, >> city of >> right that we sometimes we put those things on. But I mean your your point is that you know we we had it over there because you know that is high traffic. >> Yeah, high traffic. But >> okay, that sounds this sounds really expensive but maybe we need one here too. I like hearing too that sounds really expensive but um >> yeah I mean I I get what you're saying that >> that we didn't do but >> yeah and maybe you don't drive by the other sign >> much but um but it it is only getting one sector of our city. I just want to pick back what you all of you have said about how we can't please everyone but in hindsight have we learned anything as a government entity which would probably view as everybody loves the government right now being transparent being forwardinking creates trust and I think that's a lot of it especially at that whole water treatment facility snap through I think that the citizens don't trust any our agency >> I don't know if it was that anyway I never trusted the government to begin with, which is why I got involved. >> That's what I but that's what I but still for those that did. That was kind of that was a huge tipping point. I mean, just the people in my own neighborhood, you know, we talk about it almost every time we get together like how did this happen? What happened? What? Because I'm not educated about it. It wouldn't fall in place before I got here. But I think that in hindsight, for future reference, we should have learned something from that. I live on a dead end and there's a dead end next to me and there's a big field behind me which eventually will have three streets. If I walked out on my patio door and saw bulldo back there, I would probably hit the fan. You sent me a notice. You did because I probably didn't read it, right? >> But when I hear the noise and I see it. Or maybe you didn't send me a notice. Maybe you're going to do that. And then I get the notices. Oh, and by the way, this is potentially what's going to happen. >> Now, you're saying those trees were all taken down, but we're not doing anything that we planned for it. So that is that what I'm hearing? >> No. No. So, hold on. So, um, >> right. >> It was such a visual. >> Stay off Facebook. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, we in order to sell the lots, we have to put in at least an L. >> Okay. >> So, that is going to be bid out in this winter's um road projects so we can mobilize with more efficient costs. But as of right now, um until we at least get that L in, I can't sell anything. it really straps the EDA from from moving on any of the parcels. >> I just think we need to be learning and I'm I'm open-minded and I and a lot of people are not. I get that. But if we're even going to we talk about education, social media, our newsletter, if we have our we have our digital board out there, but building trust and being as transparent as we can as soon as we can, I think is going to be helpful. And then you're going to get more people to buy into those that we're talking about. they don't see the value because how does an apartment building help me because people really are what is it what is it in it for me? >> So, um to answer some of that too and and as frustrating as it is uh ever I mean when me and Steve started here we've been begging for people to be involved. We've been doing everything we can do to try to get more input and again the St. Francis Ford project was probably our most successful most uh participation we've ever had that I've ever seen and I haven't seen as much since. Um and that that the super frustrating part like I say is we we're we're like we need be transparent. We need let because we were so pissed off with the water treatment facility and we did and we're still I mean I still think we're trying to do everything. >> Um I think Mark feels the same way where he wants to be transparent as well. It's it's not the thing is is if people don't see it or they throw it away or whatever the case may be. It's the city trying to do something behind your back and it's the mentality of that. And >> the thing I struggle with is we I mean you can spoon feed people and they still don't want to hear it. They still don't care. And that's that's the hardest part is it's like no we like honestly I am not a fan of government at all. Like I want as much less government as possible at all levels, right? For the most part. Freedom sounds great. Um, granted there's pluses and minus to all that, right? Um, free speech is a great thing. However, when you have hate speech, you have to accept if you want to have free speech, you have to accept that somebody's going to be hateful. And you don't have to like what they say, but they have every right to say it, right? So, there's there's good and bad things with everything. And I think it's it's it's I I look at the positive side of things and I try to focus on those things, but at the same time, it's you do everything you can for people and there's only so much you can do to where they have to take some responsibility for themselves to, you know, to take a drink. You can bring them there, but they just walk away and say they're thirsty. And it's like, what the hell do you want me to do? And it's it's hard and it's frustrating, but I I don't think like I haven't lost faith necessarily in trying to do more, but it's sometimes I mean I may make comments that sound like that too because I'm frustrated, which isn't the right thing to do, but you know, I'm definitely I'm definitely guilty of that from time to time, too, cuz it's so frustrating, but it's like, >> you know, with the people we get with the apartment, it's that apartment would have helped pay for that road. So Kevin being upset about that road and the cost that apartment would the the fees and everything associated with that would have helped pay for that road which would have allowed us to sell those lots. Nobody thinks about that. Nobody cares about that. Nobody asks those questions because they don't want an apartment um because of the fears they have of what's going to happen if that comes. We're going to turn into Minneapolis. I mean you've heard the craziest things and again even with rural people. Um, you know, I I understand that people bought land to buy land and uh a friend of mine too that lives off of Yukon up there in 241st or whatever. He owns three acres. That's a nice lot. I've never had three acres. I'll probably never will and that's okay with me, right? But it is what it is. But then he'll complain about the plows not being there soon enough. >> Well, you're either can't have both >> or you're not. >> So, yeah, they're going to do the dense area first because it affects more people and they're going to work their way out. That's how it works. and he supposedly understands these things. Um, he wants all his rights, but then when some he feels like he doesn't like something, he's not worried about the other person's rights. And that happens frequently, unfortunately, with conversation I have. And I point those things out and sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't, right? But it's it depends on how that person feels at that moment in time. So, it's it's again it's trying to get through to people and trying to understand like we're trying to be as transparent, I think, as can. We there's newsletters that are sent out that talk about things that again nobody ever gets, nobody ever reads. Uh, you know, even Mark the mayor now, I I still give him because there's a lot of mail that he didn't get in the past. And so I tease him now that he's sitting in that chair. >> Yeah. >> You know, so it's it's just it's up to people and it's it's again we're going to do everything we can, I think, to to educate people, but at the same time it's with the trees and that argument to me it's like can I tell Amy I'm Amy's neighbor. Can I say you can't have a pool in your backyard? I don't own her yard. She owns her yard and she has every right to put a pool there. Now, you can argue the only argument I can see with that the trees is that it's city-owned, therefore it's public, right? To where they should have something to say about it. But again, if I have one person show up, um, well, if the council we're talking about the charter and whatnot, whether or not to keep it, if I go by the same logic of these people surrounding it don't want it, what about everybody else that wants the benefits from that apartment building coming in? Now, most of the time you're not going to hear those things, but young gentleman named Hunter, um, you know, your future mayor, I think, one day, well, if he lives here, >> but he, uh, you know, he says, uh, he he wants to keep the charter. That's that's the only person that I've heard. So, that's one one person that said keep the charter. Should I vote to keep the charter because he said so? Or I mean, I don't know how many people really care, honestly, whether or not you have it or not. they feel like whatever laws are passed probably they're going to have to do it. But I don't know. It's it's if but if I go by that logic, I heard one voice. That voice said to do this, I'm going to do that because that's what the people said, right? And so you have to try to balance those things. We you have to understand that when there's 30 people that are emotional about it. >> Um you know, I rallied up like 150 people about the water bill. We marched in the, you know, the place. We were angry. Um next meeting you had less, next meeting you had less, and the next meeting you had 10 people, and then it was down to two. So it's like it's >> I think I went to one one of those meetings where there's so many >> you know >> I'll be honest I thought I have my own water and I left I was like I you know this is years ago obviously and and so it it does it's human nature you can't >> you work on what affects you. >> I'm just saying that the emotions would have been less if we had just went >> let's let's just tell let's just talk to these people and >> yeah that that's all I'm saying. I I just think the emotions would have been less and we would have had a better, you know, shot at shot. >> So, how do you how do we notify those people? They don't read their mail. >> I mean, you go door to door and knock on it. I mean, >> I was the only reason I need is because Steve came to my house. Like, I'm saying, "Oh, I I need to get involved. I need to go city." Five years. I never moved in any direction. Steve's knocking at my door. The second year he came, I'm only going to stay for half an hour. It's going to be two hours for sure. It was >> but it was fascinating to me. All of it is fascinating to me. Granted, not everybody wants to hear from their mayor for that many that long or whatever, but and I wasn't saying more transparent. I just think it's a very slow process. And if we can be forward thinking, mindful of our residents, transparent, and start building trust, we're some of those people I agree with you. >> Do you know >> I just wonder what more can we do to try to earn that trust because I think we've tried with a lot of stuff. >> Do you realize >> since I've sat on this commission that I've seen maybe one council member at one meeting we've had >> I mean audience Yeah. I mean Kevin we could Yeah. And that was once we I absolutely value their opinion, you know, I mean, >> um, >> you can't really do that though because there's already two here. So then you get, >> right? But so what about the rest? You know what I mean? At least make that a Steve used to show up every now and then. >> Yeah, he get notice I suppose. >> But yeah, he probably read his notice. So >> I have a couple questions. First of all, I agree with what you're saying about the transparency. I don't know how we get a hold of everybody. I understand that. But I do agree that the council and the commissions in the city have got to be on the same page or we're not going to get anything done. >> And there has to be more discussions between those bodies. And I know you run into open meeting law problems and that, but we've got to find a way. So, what what is that? And I think that should have some tiebacks to that plan, that comp plan that we have, the St. Francis forward. We went through all of this. You've commented about how excited people were. They had opinions. Let's use that. That's helping to, you know, to direct us in what people were looking for. This is our long reach plans. And that in my opinion is what the governing body should be doing is the long range planning. So, I have a suggestion >> and that that was never even brought up in the council meeting that nobody brought that up and it's like, wait a minute, this is what you guys asked for and now you're shooting it down. >> Um, >> I think it has to be reminded for sure. >> I think a step in that direction would be, and I hate to do this because it's I don't see it working the other way where council showing up here. You show up to council meetings and say, "Hey, I'm member of the EDA, blah blah blah." Um, then the rest of us are forced to to hear that again, too. And there's Well, obviously two of us here now that are hearing it. But >> that's how you get it. I think Mark's pretty receptive with a lot of things and if he hears something that he's like, "Hey, maybe that is, you know, I think you think if he hears something he thinks is a good idea, jump all over that or any way to improve the city." I do think he cares about that. and the minutes from all the commission um groups are put in our packets. So, and I know I read them. I can't speak for the other council members. Um >> is there in agreement about what the council is looking for and what direction these commissions are taking that we've got to have that understanding earlier on before everybody's going every direction. >> You're right. We invested a lot of time into this and then to have it I mean >> city staff I mean how many hours do you think you had involved in this? >> Oh >> right. >> More than you want to know >> you know and Amy and not to that lot was listed for a dollar for how many years Kate >> for sure. So, we that was another one that had been put on the market um at market price and had not had any hits and we kind of sent out like an RFP trying to encourage and we did get one other townhouse but they came in with such a small development it it wasn't cost-effective and it wasn't a good use of the property >> and and it's a good thing bankrupt. Yeah, they well they're building in cities south of here in greater quantities. So, it has to be it has to make sense for both of us, >> right? >> Um but yeah, it's >> we we need we need to get with a commercial developer in this town. Um we got some lots sitting here that I mean I've actually heard people talk about having a u an industrial park. Well, we can't have an industrial park if we don't have a developer. You know, all that goes hand in hand. And if we did put a develop an industrial park in this town, guess what follows that industrial park? Family restaurants. Um all those things that take away that burden from everybody in town. >> Isn't the the zone over here um the building is part of it? And that's why you're talking about isn't that industrial? That's industrial, but the industrial parks down the road, >> right? We've got a business park just north of 47 in Ambassador, but south of 241st. However, it doesn't have any infrastructure, water and sewer to it. So, it's again, it's another parcel that's waiting for infrastructure before it can be sold, >> which is very costly to run that pipe >> and that's part of the money we're asking for. Well, and the same the same is true, Mike, is you know, you were saying the council should come here to the meeting and you said, you know, the other way around. Um the planning and zoning meetings, you know, you you you suggested a few things. I've learned a lot from the planning and zoning um meetings and I, you know, it's you know, an extra night to go to those meetings, but those meetings only, I mean, they happen once a month, but often they get cancelled if there's no applications. So they really are only every two to three months on average I guess. So they're usually on Wednesdays. I learned a lot. I've learned a lot about the planning and zoning. Not that I know everything, but um that would be good for you all to to you know go to the meeting or read about or um so we are looking at the same everybody's looking working together. >> So let me ask you a question about planning and zoning. Are they um aren't they somewhat dictated by the ordinances and the requirements of the city? >> Correct. So planning and zoning and and as well as council. So where your there is a great map of discretion. So where your discretion with planning and zoning and the council is is when you set the comp plan and you write the ordinances. Um for example, this townhouse development that's looking at coming in across the street They if they build to code, there is nothing more to say. It's building to write. If they're following the comp plan, they're following the code or the codes, it is what it is. And that's that goes true from every one of you. If you have as long if you want to build a shed and the code says you can build the shed, you can build it. You don't right. You have to get approval per se. So, um that's the greatest discretion. So anybody can build to write on their on a property. If if that house or a property out in the rural area is allowed to have four houses, it could build four houses. And there's nothing we can say as a local government. So planning commission is supposed to look at things as does it meet the comp plan? Does it meet code? And if it doesn't meet those things, are we okay with those variables? So, we're learning the city is probably too high in parking requirements. I mean, that's kind of a statewide thing, but definitely a metro thing where we're we're building for great way to put it is we're building for Black Friday every day, but we don't need that many parking spaces, right? So, when planning commission gets us something and they're going, "Okay, Quick Trip was a great example. Here's Quick Trip." They know from all of their experience they don't need the parking we're requiring. Is our planning commission willing to accept less? And then it goes to council. Are you willing to accept less? So there's there's some discretion and that's where we use the tools like the plan unit development. If they build to code, no, they cannot change that parking. But if we do the PUD and make some of those discretions, um, yeah, we're going to put in 10 more trees if you don't make us put in six more parking spaces. we can kind of negotiate. When it's built to write, they build it to code and there's no conversation. When it's built to a PUD or some type of a concept, um >> have some say to beautify, >> we have some negotiations to, you know, yeah, we don't care if you reduce parking, but can you put in a trail extension that goes another 10 feet or so, the planning commission has to really stick to the code. Uh, and then when it gets to council, if you don't have the discretion of a PUD or some type of like ask, they're not asking to do anything different. Um, then it also has to follow code. But it's when they're asking to do something different, we want, you know, we want less parking or we want less trees or we want shorter setbacks, all of those kind of quirky things. um the new development that's looking at going up on the off of ambassador, right? We you basically approved the concept the other night saying we are okay with all of these asks. They're going to go back and draw that and then come back to to council and through planning saying here's what you approved in concept. Here's how it draws out. These are our asks. So there's a little discretion in there with those asks, but if they just go to code, it code is code and your discretion is when you write and approve that code. >> You have to have a finding a fact to deny it. >> Correct. >> Based on comp planner code. Yep. Yeah. A lot of moving pieces with where that discretion falls based on what they're asking. >> Anything else? How about any movement on 47 before somebody asks me again? >> So 47 it continues to move. Um we are working with both the state and county on some intersection. We're not sure if it's permanent or temporary up off Ambassador. So if it's temporary, it could be still this year. If it's permanent, it wouldn't be built until next year. And then we have heard from Clolobachar's office on asking for funds underneath. So we've got two projects on the highway. One is you can think of it as one is dirt up and one is dirt down. Uh we've asked this the state and feds for money for the dirt down because otherwise we have to 100% of that. And uh we've we are making it slowly through the federal process, but as of right now there's still no guarantees. >> Hopefully we'll get one of the two. Yeah. Otherwise, it's going to be a very costly bond and all of those bond prices will go on the water and sewer rates. So, we're trying our hardest to get some funds to help offset that. >> Yeah. If it all goes on the water and sewer rates, then how does well and septic work? >> So, you're just asking one group of the citizens to cover that. >> It's those pipes that you have to pay for those that the well people don't use. But they come here and >> they're using these pipes. >> They go to the library, they're using those pipes, the school district, you know, I mean, >> it's it's just not you can't draw that line. I I understand what you're saying, >> but they pay sack and whack and then they raise the price and then they they pay for it indirectly through property taxes through the school, too, you could argue. Or they pay through their grocery prices, too. That's the argument in favor of that or whatever. Um, it's a lot different than what happened in East Bethl because that was a whole big show. But that's so that's they're going to be hit, but they're going to be hit indirectly. >> So that's interesting you brought up East Bethl. >> So So I kind of looked into that. I talked to Mark a little bit about that >> B. So, no, it wasn't so much that, but how the Mets council came in there and they took that project and what was the wording they used in it? They basically paid off that treatment plan and called it a u sample or something like that. So, >> it's a subsidiary. >> So, they you got to read the article. I should have print I tried >> Steve used to always talk about it. tried printing it off, but it wouldn't let me do it cuz I wanted to bring it. >> But it was really interesting what it said, how the Met Council kind of just went in there and paid it and let him off the hook. It >> just because they had no means to do anything with it. >> No, because the means was is what the Met Council. >> No, the the Met Council knew that they were going to get more development through that, right? you know, >> but they were they were doomed the minute they built it because all these everything was supposed to go to 65 and nothing came. So then they started hitting the residents with well and septic people that weren't even using the facility to have to pay for it and I think they said this is unfair or whatever somehow and then they seen it as an opportunity to expand their you know the med council is going to do what makes sense for them too financially. So that's why they do that and there's it's like a subsidiary plan. And I don't know what the word is, but I know what you're talking about cuz Steve used to always talk about it. >> So, one last thing, the rum river in I know that there was the pow there and nobody knows what it was, but have you heard anything more on the rum? >> I have, but not anything that's public. >> So, there are a lot of conversations. There are some great challenges. um you know the price, the property, the river, the setbacks. There's a lot of moving pieces on that one. They're they're working as hard as they can to get all of those things connected and we are here waiting to help wherever we can. Um but it's it's having problems getting over some of its own hurdles. There's a lot of there's a lot of people looking at it. It's just getting that next step. >> Yeah. >> All right. Anything else, guys? >> I wish we put an apartment there. >> Um I think we sto >> Yeah. Well, they tried to get it taken off and that got >> Oh, did it? >> Did it? I was wondering about that. So, then what what are the options for someone to purchase it and do anything? go to the historical society and ask for a grant. >> You got to do a bunch of stuff to environmental studies and whatnot. So what what are you going to put there? What's your idea of what's going there type of >> basically have to get >> 50 grand I think for that. >> So we did we requested that it come off the historical society because of the the damage they've done on the interior. They gutted it. They they took any significance out of it. Uh what we learned was it wasn't put on the register due to anything on the interior. It had already been altered when it was put on there, >> so it didn't matter. >> The exterior holds either one or two historic windows and some white historic siding. Therefore, we got denied for >> removing it. >> Removing it from the list. So, one of the questions that I continue to have is if we go through the uh the the process to look at having it removed, it's $35 to $50,000 process. They can still say no, but that would be the next step, but it's such a huge gamble for somebody to take that step. Um, I understand why they're not otherwise to remodel it. Uh I easily could see a half a million to 750,000 to put it back together. So um construction costs right now about 350 a square foot and they took out everything and which then requires the entire place to be brought to current city code. So the fact that it's missing footings, electrical, HVAC, it has a dirt floor in part of it, it it's such an extensive rebuild. Um, it really is stuck in this weird kind of limbo. So, and it's clearly unsafe to be in there. So, >> can you can we can it be condemned? I mean, I don't know anything about that process. >> Yep. So, >> nuisance, aren't it? >> Yeah, we could go through the process to condemn it, but being that it can't be taken down, we're then forcing the current owner's hand to either start the remodel or to start the $50,000 process to ask the state if they'd be willing to let us take down. >> It's the state, not even the county. >> It's the state. >> Oh, that's worse. So it it has yeah that building has a huge challenge um that I just and again you know it would it would qualify for redevelopment tiff but if that's not in council's favor that's not a tool that's even being discussed >> tiff money as far as rebuilding it. Is that what you're saying? >> They could get some Yeah. some redevelopment money, but it um they haven't asked either, right? We've given them some different options. They could have some historic tax credits, which is through the state. Um but there is there is some other significant gaps that aren't even allowing people to get that far in the conversation. >> And you can't just take the windows out and promise to put them back in your new building. Is that allowed? Well, it's but but that may not be the only part of that. >> I'm sure that's >> there could be setbacks from the DNR, from the river that may fall into that once you take that building down >> extensive. So, we went through a study with HKGI. If we were to remove the pullbar and the building, it has to be pushed back from the h county road. It has to be pushed back from the highway. And there's about 3,500 feet of building space that would be left between storm water um impervious because of the river rules setbacks. It would be it would be a building smaller than the old city hall is what's allowed. So So what's the point? >> Do you want to find somebody to redevelop what's there? either rebuild what's there or redevelop the entire site including the hardware store if they >> join those now. >> Pardon me. >> Did Tim join those lots at all? Because his lot was already encroaching on the other lot and I'm just kind of curious if that ever >> as of right now they haven't pulled together any of the lots that I >> and behind it. >> They've had surveys where they're working on surveys. So yeah, >> it's a mess. >> Yeah, it's a it's a real mess. I mean, there's so many obstacles in there. And then again, the general public don't know that. They don't know there's there's, you know, these people that buy these houses on Minnetonka. >> They they knock down the house and leave one wall >> to get away from that DNR setback stuff like that. You know, it's >> I drove through there today. Yeah. You could tell all the knockdown houses and >> it's >> it's amazing down there. >> Really? I could do that. Yeah, >> you keep a wall, huh? >> You keep a wall builds around it. Take a wall. Well, >> that wall is usually exterior and it's closest to the lake. >> Somehow they incorporate it in. You got great architects that draw great >> plans. Great great plans for that. And we have a little we have another layer with the wild and scenic river rules where so you've got the shoreline rules and then we've got wild and scenic on top of that. So what is restrictive for a lot of like Lake Minnotonka we have another layer with the wild and scenic. So that that poor property our property we talked about tonight. I mean these challenges with the county road. Sorry I keep picking on the county Brenda. The county and the um the DNR. I mean, it it really >> Have they infiltrated us? >> Yes. And you can just bet I run back. No, I don't. But I did want him to know with the 47 project, they came to a U commissioner's board meeting and the highway department said St. Francis has been working on this so hard and they've been doing all the right things. So, they gave you guys a lot of a lot of praise. So, I thought that was really good. >> Yeah. Yeah, working with they've been a great partner to help walk through this. >> I got nothing but praise for the staff here. I mean, you guys knock it out of the park. Um completely and and I hope it stays that way. You know, it just I've seen past administrations where they were pretty bad. We keep making good decisions, we'll we'll have a great neighborhood, great community. Anything else? >> I'm sorry to take up your time, so much time, but uh I I love the discussion we had tonight. Um hopefully we can come up some way somehow to figure out how we can in incorporate our citizens in this town. But I think as you learn, Amy, it falls on deaf ears. Um don't fault you for trying though. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're going to get blamed for everything, no matter what. You got you got blamed for the trees. >> Whether you realize it or not, >> I have nothing to do with the trees. >> You're on council. >> Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're here or not. >> It's still your >> um >> motion to move. >> Second. >> Motion carries. All in favor? I >> I motion carries off. Hey, I you guys read this, please. I will. I will. I already read this. I will my mic.