So then she says, "$150 cash." Oh, we don't take cash. And then she hands me the credit card back and I said, "Did you get baggage?" >> Oh my god. >> So when I was all done, I was like, "I hope you have a wonderful day." >> But did you know you don't have to take your shoes off anymore? >> Oh, that's gross. Oh, See if this does not I'll order the work session on Monday, July 28th at 5:30 p.m. Please rise for the pledge. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We have to do a roll call with this. >> Yeah. >> Roll call, please. Jenny. >> Mayor Bogo, >> here. >> Council members Mau >> here. >> Vaness >> here. Advig >> here. Robinson >> here. >> Uh Darcy, you're you're up. >> Good evening, Mayor and Council. Tonight's work session we'll be discussing the 2026 levy and the water and sewer rates. So starting I wanted to start with the general levy. So the general levy is more than just the general operating fund. It is also our capital our you know the capital equipment building. Sorry. um storm uh street improvements, parks. Uh we've added on a new one for the tax abatement for Vista Curry, which was approved back in 2024. This allows this is a way that um we have to refund them their property taxes that they pay up to $200,000 a year for 10 years at a the max over those 10 years is $1,975,000. We put in 50,000 this year because they're not fully built. their value isn't completely on and um Nick from Ellers had given me an estimate to put this in there. So we will be turning around and having to pay this to pur back their city taxes. Um the other thing that we um is we are adding new is the storm water. Um, council gave direction on their April 28th, 2025 work session to move the storm water from a feebased to a levy. Um, so we've added $300,000 in there for that and that will then just be spread in the levy instead of the individuals getting their storm water invoice. Um, one thing to note was during that last five-year plan or, you know, overall plan that we did, it was scheduled to go up and so next year's amount would be $106. So, there would have been an increase in there. The other part of the levy is the debt service levies. Those are we have two out there. There's one the 2017 that's for the police and public works. These are all set up. You know, the levies are scheduled with when we sell the bonds. Um the 2017 is for the police public works building that is scheduled to have a levy of $310,000 and on that one is getting paid off in let me see 2035. Okay. The other one, the 2023, which is got a levy of $790,000, is for this building. Um, that one uh is being is paid off in 2048. >> Do you want us to ask questions as we go along? >> If you have a question, let me know. Because my only question as we were just talking about previously here is I I believe Joel was probably correct on this that even if we were in the position we cannot pay down these capital capital bonds. We cannot pay them let's just say somehow the city came flush with money and we wanted to start paying off so we wouldn't have to pay as much interest or pay make an extra payment to them. Can we do that? >> Like a mortgage you can't pay the principal down. >> Yeah. You no we can't do that. What what happens is there is times that you can refund it. You could do an advanced refunding. Um they'll they'll come across and they'll say this is the interest rate. This is what you could refund it at and it has to make sense in the end. They go through a calculation. But no, we can't go hey we want to make an extra payment now and write down our principal. the it in the bond documents it tells us when we could refund it when we could call the bonds and all of that and it but like I say I think the term is advanced refunding is there's an a call there's a call date in the future we refund it now but then we hold that money and and pay the bond off when it's it's callable in the future but right now and and Nick is always watching ing any of our bonds and telling us if there's ever an opportunity to refund anything >> refinance too to get savings on interest. >> Yep. And we did that. The that was the 2017 that was a refund. So, and they put several different bonds together on that one I think. Yeah. >> Thanks. >> Okay. >> Yep. So then in total you this page will show you that all of those together the different levies are there. Um our tax increase next year is going to go up $995,000 but remove that 300 it'd be 665. And some of those are, you know, like I say, we have an increase in the capital equipment that we've when we go through the capital equipment, we budgeted an increase of um what is it? $50,000 a year. Uh the parks, we've budgeted an increase of $50,000 a year in there when we're trying to pay what we want to pay. Uh the street improvements going up $120,000 a year. So if you mess if you if you change any of those levies, then we have to go back and look at all of those expenses that were, you know, saved in those funds and you would have to move some stuff backwards, you know, and or else sell another bond. Okay, >> so I'm going to pick on streets for one second because I saw that $120,000 a year increase year-to-year. Mhm. >> That number is created by I mean it's obviously more than inflation I'm guessing. What what's what's where do we come up with $120,000 a year increase? >> So um years ago when we did put get start the street fund you know we were hey do we want to sell a bond every year and we didn't you know because then that takes interest that takes everything. So we said, "Can we cash flow it?" Because we had very little debt service for our streets and stuff. And so we took um they made a plan of all the streets and started trying to really go through and say what streets needed to be replaced when and and get got me numbers. Then to cash flow it, we I just started playing with the numbers like, hey, you know, if we put in 50,000 this year and add this and stuff and we came down to the 120 and it's worked. We, you know, we've gone since what year, what year did we start that? Probably 16 or >> I want to say 15 even. >> Well, I think Paul started working on it then. And then um he actually came up with the plan. I had the book at home. >> Yeah. >> I think I want to say like 17 or 18. >> We and we we funded we started the fund with a big transfer from the general fund. We put in some capital there. I think it was like over a million dollars and we have, you know, we're, like I say, we're in a really good position is we're not selling those bonds for our street improvements. one on the same topic if I could chime in quick. It was a question I had and I I think I've asked before and I don't know if we really have a number obviously with cost that fluctuates so much. I don't know if we can come up with that but is there a number that we say okay we're putting a million dollars or you know we're putting $500,000 into this every year. Are we kind of leveling it off or we're at uh what do you call it with the the water? you're not you're not giving relief, but you're finding you're balancing it, so to speak, to where it's you're leveling off and saying, "Okay, this is good for a while now." Anyway, >> um I think we'll get to that point eventually. Right now, I don't I mean, we're still kind of infancy stages of this. They they're refining the plan and I think they did some revisions on it even this year. Um and >> material during too they keep fluctuating like every >> so we are scheduled for several years out to continue that 120 right now increase. Um, and like I said, if you take out that new one, which was a fee base, the state the storm water, that would bring it down to $695,000, which would be 11% increase on the levy over last year, >> which is more in line. I I did an average of uh 2021 to 2025, and our average has been 10.27. Just trying to keep up on. And a big thing is the capital and I mean general operating is in there too but okay. Any questions on that? >> I have a question on that. I know I I kind of like treat these as two different things. The sewer and water is one major discussion. >> The levies is another but they got intertwined. What was the normal expenses if if if we went status quo sent out bills again this year for $ 105 or whatever, how much money how much money would be in that pot as opposed to 300,000 we're now allowing for it in this other new pot? Does that make sense? With the expenses of postage and all the admin BS that you have to put into it, you know, if everybody sent their checks in on time and and we reassessed, you know, >> we were >> percal type of thing, >> right? We were budgeting uh $230,000 in 25. >> So now we have we're budgeting $300,000. >> But we were that had called for increases each year for uh like five years. And we we came up with and decided not to do the increase for 25, but we looking at all the expenses coming out of there, we we would need to go up to 106. >> Okay. Okay. Which would more or less equate to 300 approximate. Okay, >> that's that's all I had for now. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Quick question on that topic as well. So you come up with a 310,000. How do you so it's based on your home's value that you pay your percentage of that? Like how do you come up with that? How do you spread that across? >> Well, now it's just going to be spread as in the tax rate. So yes, your tax capacity value is going and that is generated. First of all, you start out with your market value and if you qualify, you get some market value ex that exclusion exemption, whatever they call it now. And then you come down to that's your taxable market value. That's taken times a percentage to come down to your tax capacity. The tax capacity is taken times the tax rate to get your city taxes, >> right? And then the county taxes and >> then the percentage of your city taxes determined like the city takes in overall six million. I pay.3% of that. So therefore I'm paying.3% of the total we need to collect for storm water type of thing. Does that make sense? Um e those numbers are obviously made up but >> yeah I mean so moving that to taxes an individual home might pay less you know you can associate less for a a lesser value house than a a higher value house. >> Yes. >> But but currently they're all the same price. >> Yes. Every single parcel pays exactly the same amount >> whether you're on city sewer water or not. >> Yep. Right. >> Well, sar has nothing to do with >> a lot of people don't seem to understand it. >> Can I jump in? Another thing says Darcy on page three and paragraph 5 says, "Please note that the county has yet to send fiscal disparity amounts, tax capacity amounts, and joint value amounts. Those are all estimates in the calculation of this tax rate. What does that mean to the numbers that we're looking at now? >> Okay, I'm gonna go to my next screen. >> All right, sorry. >> You read my mind. So, and you've seen this when we do our truth and taxation. So, the total levy is $7,180,000 and um there's this uh there's fiscal disparities amount that is taken off there. That is the amount we get from fiscal disparities. That's the metro area. They h uh way back in the 70s. I'd have to look at that again. But all commercial val uh commercial and industrial new value 40% goes into this pot and that generates a tax revenue and that's spread to all the different entities in the seven county metro area. Okay, that's the amount that I haven't gotten. I won't get those amounts from the county till the end of end of August, but they'll tell me what we're going to get from fiscal disparities and what we have to put in. So, if >> one million could change. >> Yes, that could change. >> Yep. >> But you're pretty conservative on your guesses. >> I'm If you look, it's a it's just a little bit more than what we got in 2025. They try. Yeah, the tax capacity is another one. I haven't gotten the the tax the all of those numbers. I don't know the market values. I don't know the taxable values. Right now, the county is still working on them. Like I say, they get them to me the end of August. And even when they give them to me in August, they still will change all the way up until they do taxes next year. Not huge amounts, but they can change. Make sure you're working with really good numbers though. >> Um, so there like on this dis this illustration, you take your total levy, you take the amount that you're going to get from fiscal disparities, you subtract that and come down to your spreadable levy. Then you take your tax capacity about and you have to add in your contributions to fiscal disparities and then this joint value that the county gives us. And so then you come up with your net tax capacity. And so then you divide the spreadable levy by the net tax capacity and that's your tax rate. And so that 64.153 would be what you would take times your tax capacity to figure out what your city taxes are going to be. Okay. So more to come on that before in I'll have better numbers in September. So any questions? >> I have another one. That tax capacity then say it goes down. To me property tax has always had a lead lag situation. Right now, you hear some of the major economists say that that or real estate people say that houses are overvalued and they're basing it on uh current incomes and incomes are up again there's a you know the average house 400 some thousand. What if the the tax capacity drops down to 9 million or 8.7 million? So that once the valuation is now down, what what's that do for cities like us that are counting on some of these approximate numbers to >> well that would just change the tax rate. But if like like a couple years ago, remember they did almost all these properties got a huge increase in their market value and their taxable market value. It doesn't really do anything to your taxes because if everybody's going at the same rate up, it's just being spread over a bigger pot. It the tax it might look different, but we get the same amount of money. We can only get like on this here, the total levy, we can only get the $7,180,000 no matter what market value we have out there. That's what we tell the county that's the max we can get. >> But then the county just raises their formula on what they need to keep production rolling and say your house drops by $40,000. They're going to raise the their tax percentage x amount to still compensate. Nobody's going to roll backwards. I guess is what I'm saying. >> If you had a house that all of a sudden dropped, you would see a drop in your taxes. But it might >> if everybody is going down, you know, say they revalue a lot of homes, you're not going to see a huge in difference because it's just spread. If everybody went down the same percentage, it's not going to affect your individual tax. >> Yeah. Police, fire, billing, energy, those costs still go up. Y the county will just re reconfigure what they need. >> That's part of the reason, too, though. you want to be within 50% over at the general levy or whatever, you got the reserves. That's where they want the reserve money too, I think, for those types of situations. >> Well, that that is because the state wants you to be at 50% for the fact that we don't get our first tax payment until July. So they want they they're trying to tell you you need enough cash to get from the first of the year to July, >> right? >> Without getting your major revenue source. And on top of it, LGA doesn't come in until July. So our major revenue comes in in July. >> And that LGA, we're not even sure what next year. That's an unknown as well, right? >> Um it actually it went up a little bit. They were talking about cutting it and in the final bills it was not cut. But our increase is not a huge increase. >> So, but we can't we don't get any more money. If your value of your house goes up, we don't get any more money than what we levy. So, if somebody says, "Well, my value went up. You're getting more money." That that isn't what generates us getting more money. It's what you guys decide the levy is going to be is how we generate more money. So, the next sheet that I have is I'm trying to show you what this means for a house. Now, I don't think homes very rarely stay exactly the same amount. You get your um what is that called in March? Now, it's escaping me. your your the value of your house in like Mar, April or February, March, and it tells you what your value of your house is going to be for the next year. Um, and you can go and go to the county and kind of fight it if you think it's not right and stuff. So, but they always are are changing. old. This spreadsheet tries to show you if your value is staying exactly the same, what your taxes are doing for city taxes. So like if you look across at say let's let's go 250. I'm saying that a home valued at 250, their city taxes in 25 would be $1,217.85. 85 and in 2026 that would go up to $1,449.54 city taxes only. But that's probably not going to be the case because their value is going to change some. And so that is an increase of $231. But if you took that $106 off that they're not paying then you're down to what? 13 120 that their taxes are going up in next year. >> So on that 250 home there I I recognize like you say all this is what is that what is that percentage? Sorry I don't what's that percentage increase from 2025 2026 on the 250,000 that the 23169 would be the annual difference. What is it what percentage is that of increase? I don't think I don't think it is. >> $250 would be 10% of the 250 250,000. >> So about something that was the new math they're teaching nowadays. >> Got you know your value always changes every year. So >> for that 250,000 home, it's roughly a 19% increase in their city tax section of their taxes. >> Yes. Oh, >> and of that 19% do >> of that 19% roughly how much of that I I know it's you're have to take like out of $100. What's the what's the MS4 portion of that? >> That would be 106. If if we were still building a fee, we would they would be paying $106. >> So instead just just humor me here. So instead of the 23169 whatever, we could take a $100 off that. You're saying it'd be $13169 and then what's the what what is that incre if we took out the MS4 >> 10%. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So, um I want to stop there. Any more questions? I I I need direction from you if you still want to continue with that um storm water going over to taxes. Um and then this is all going to come back to you in September. We have to set the preliminary levy in September by the end of the month. And then uh then that would generate those truth and taxation notices that you get in November. And then we'd have the December meeting where you would set the final 11. >> So if we So the $106 I know we voted for it, but for it to be in here, but is there a way for it to be on a separate line so it doesn't the percentage of increase doesn't look so much and then it would be the same for everybody like it is currently? >> No. >> No. See the because we only have two things that we can do is the general operating or general levy and the debt service levies. All of those are our general levy, the storm water, the tax abatement, the capital equipment, and our general what we consider our general fund levy. that all at this county level is one amount. It's just how we divide it up. So there is no separate lines. And we had asked um years ago when we first started the storm water um to just put an amount on your taxes. You know, you there's a hazardous or a a hazardous waste or what I don't know what it is. and we asked, you know, can we just charge each property the $60 when we started? We don't have the ability to do that. The state has not authorized us to do that. What we have the ability to do is to have an invoice, have it unpaid, and then we can special assess the property. So, >> because when we voted for it, I didn't imagine that it was going to be different for every property owner. Now, it kind of makes sense to me that it's the same for every property manage or property owner. So, I I guess I didn't when we voted, I didn't realize it was going to change to a percentage of your property value. Y >> um this if a resident ask me this, I'll probably get a tumor, but I want to ask you this to see if it's actually possible to answer, which I'm sure it is somewhere somehow. We're taking the total amount we need in storm water, and um somebody comes up to me and says, I my home's worth $360,000. How much am I paying for storm water now? Or Mr. Jones shows up and says, I have this many acres and my property's worth, whatever it is. Is there a way to know or a formula of some sort that I mean I would probably tell them to call Darcy because she can probably help you there. But I'm just curious as far as those kind of questions because we're going to get those. I think if >> first we're going to be accused of hiding it in the taxes because that's going to happen. And then if we say well this helps to save whatever and this is why we did it. Explain it to them. They're say well how much am I paying now and what what I wouldn't pay otherwise. So, is there something we could formula something that you could send out? >> Well, wouldn't we take the >> to me at least to where I could answer it? >> When we take the >> Does that make sense? Sorry. >> Yeah. No, I mean when we take the total value of all the properties in St. Francis, I'm sure that's easy to find. Um, and divide it by the $330,000% increase though, right? The 310 is just the increase, not the total amount going to MS4, right? I would say what what we could do is take the 300,000. You wouldn't you wouldn't put any of your fiscal disparities and stuff towards that. You would just take the 300,000 divide. So that would be your spreadable levy. Um and then divide that go through the formula and get your uh tax, you know, your net tax capacity and you could come up with what you say is the that percentage. Yes. And then they could take it times their tax capacity. So yes, I could >> barring not putting any money. barring and not putting any of your fiscal disparities contributions towards that 300,000 just saying that is all going to our other rest of your levy if that makes sense trying to circle >> but that's but you're kind of going to my point that we talked about earlier if I come if I could come up with some sort of calculator that's that's what I've asked to do that tells me how much am I paying roughly for MS4 how much am I paying for police how much am I paying for fire >> right and you might not get like I say exact. But if you can at least get sort of close because you're you are going to get people again now, even though they're pissed off every time they got the single file deal for the single mailer, they're going to be mad now that you're hiding it, even though we're not. Um it's it's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. You got to be ready for those things. And you want to be ready for those questions when they come of well, how much am I paying now? Because there's supposed to be an increase and what you'll get one or two maybe, but people are going to ask that. And I'd like to be able to answer it if it's possible, but if it's some sort of crazy, >> so roughly calculus, >> it would be >> you could attribute you would take the uh tax capacity uh times of the house times 031 and you could get an approximate amount >> for for which line item for the >> storm. So >> you know what your answer is here, don't you? It's Darcy's phone number and Darcy's name. Sorry, Darcy. >> Well, I'd like to strongly suggest y >> something of this magnitude and it is a milestone for us. If we go down this road and we haven't even talked about the new water rates, maybe to actually have an open house for a town meeting where we actually we're here, we were voted here to do a job. We can invite the people, put one of the sign out in the corner of the our building, one of the thing on wheels with big bold letters. We'll give them the opportunity to see exactly what we're seeing here. And we're not doing any of this in any secret, but like everyone said, people be here now, too, if they wanted. >> They'll be pitchforks torches. Yeah. But they don't know the magnitude of like Mike is a breast of the problem or the situation. This gentleman's address of the situation. Some people they're just busy. But if we let them know again, we had what Kate 80 we had 29 people come to our open house when we talked about a city hall. We did our best and we really really tried and we I mean but I think this this is one of those things where full-blown transparency we're here to answer the question and there'll be people mad and they'll be yelling and discing some disgruntlement and stuff but at least they're seeing exactly what we see and why we're doing what we are intending to do and why the changes are being made. And you know, maybe there'll be time for some rebuttal. I don't know how you control a herd of cats like that, but just a thought. But I I think we ought to give the public an opportunity. Again, we're a town 8,500, 1700 dwellings, etc., etc. If we get 100 people to show up, at least we try and they can never say you. We've never known what they can. They will. >> I'm just saying. >> I hate to be ugly like that and I hate to sound cynical the public. I mean, we are here to serve them and I don't fault anybody for trying or we've been doing I think we've been >> ever since you know Feldman and I got elected I think uh and and Bower back then even I think it was we tried and we have been trying and every council since then I think has done our best to try to get involvement. We begged for involvement depending on the topic or the emotions at the time. Uh 47 was a hot button issue got hit. A lot of people participated in some of that stuff. Um but it did die off too and the politicians disappeared at the state level. And I think too it's a lot of those things that they it slowly fades and until you get that bill in the mail um people don't realize the impact that things are going to have and then they want to accuse you of being underhanded. And it's really like it's it's your priorities of whether or not you want to hear these things. And I get what you're saying Kevin. I'm not against a town hall. I mean if you want to try more I'll encourage it. I'm just don't have a lot of faith unfortunately in the public. >> I don't either. But you can't quit trying. >> That's true. >> I don't have much. >> I'm just saying they could be here. They could be here right now, but they're not. And that's because priorities, right? They're not Nobody Nobody's paying attention, unfortunately, which is it's sad and it it bothers the hell out of me because that's why we're here. But it's hard to serve people that don't tell you what they want either or or how you can better serve them. You know, it's it's and then they're mad at you when you don't you do something they don't want. And it's like, how are we supposed to know without communication? You know, we're out there on 199. we're out there with these things trying to get to to you know talk to people and surveys and everything. So it's it's not for a lack of trying on the city's part. I just want to kind of note that because I think we do try. I think staff does a good job reaching out I think at all our public events. Um it is it is being tried still. So it's it's not and like you say I don't disagree with you that you can't just give up. But I just don't have a lot of faith in the result and and I hope the public proves me wrong. I really do and I I would love to see that. So >> I just don't want to see it used against the city, not us, but used against the city because it will I mean Mike is here because he saw 25% he wants his hat spins around on his head because he sees that. I saw when I see it, you know, and I'm trying to circumvent some of that stuff as best we can and then he's like, you know, go to the tape, go to, you know, we got it on tape, come and then we'll pan the audience. How many people showed up? All 100 out of how many people that live here. So >> no, I agree with it. I don't I don't fault it for trying. Like I say, I'd support that 100% if you want to do a town hall. I just I don't I'm I'm not real positive on that that we're going to have a great outcome. Again, I I pray they prove me wrong. I really do. >> Just want to say again though, you are going to have a meeting in September that you're going to talk about this and then you're going to turn around, they're going to get their notices and then you you'll talk about it again versus meeting in December. Good question. That's a >> question beforehand. >> And I mean I I think we need to plaster that on every page be like this is what >> we've discussed. We discussed December we'll have >> Yes. So we could >> September >> we could >> we're going to do newsletters and we want to revamp what we have even on the the like a page in the web page. >> So quick question Kevin is what what as far as a town hall when you say you want everything we're talking about tonight like here's the budget. >> Well these are two big deals. The sewer water rates are going to go up. Yeah >> and then storm water is changing. Those are really big milestones. Not to be any comparison to what the previous event that caused a lot of people to come out, but this is a big deal and it'll be a bigger deal if we don't say enough about it. And I actually I put my one month council salary to pay for a sign on the corner of our lot with those orange letters on there bigger than the smoke shops got and say, you know, this is what we got going on. But and again, I don't know how we deal with it. how you heard cats and the mayor's got to be here with a plate of you know suit of armor and kevlar on how that's all going to go down but get some training >> and I may be a little I'm exaggerating somewhat but we need to hit them hit them hit them and and tell them tell them tell them and if they don't come then they just didn't come I mean I know I'm I'm asking a lot of the staff and us you know when they come >> question to me the question to me is let's just say we put a front page on the on the September newsletter front page blah blah blah and here's the date of next meeting where we'll be discussing it. >> I mean, is that >> I mean, we can let it out at night to unite too. We can have a big thing saying come to this meeting. This is >> because this is my criticism. This is my criticism as a cit citizen before. You've heard me up here. Yeah. When I talked about this, >> you said we never talked about it, but yet we had >> you had however how No, I don't. >> I still love you. >> I I love you, too. However, the newsletter, our newsletter, I challenge you to show me one article in the newsletter about the new city hall fire station >> in previous years. >> In the previous years, that never happened. >> And we we're calling it whether we I know it's not technically a newsletter, but that's what it says. Newsletter. Show me show me one show me one word about it in >> That's my kind of turn a new leaf. >> I agree. >> As a as a as a city, we should turn a new leaf and be better at communication. So I I I you know I'm I'm just thinking out loud just like you are right now. I'm I'm saying this >> two three things should be on the front page of the newsletter in September and it should be >> water sewer rates and this MS4 change should be the front front page front page >> and I I will pay for a sign to go on the corner of where as as close as the county putting it. I'll pay one month salary to put on the to pay for that sign. legally do that. Just saying. You might run that by >> that could be another sandwich sign like the subway guys. >> You could do that. That's >> I'll pay my salary to see you do that there. All right. There you go. >> Signs big. >> But in all seriousness, I mean, I think the start is the September newsletter. It's got to be the >> right on the front page, not buried deep in the newsletter. And it has to be something like like major changes to to >> how this calculator is >> sewer water and MS4 rates. I don't know how to word it. >> Yep. >> Well, yeah, I agree with Kevin with, you know, a town hall or something. And there's got to be a calculation way to figure it out based on all the prop what your property value is, all of those steps in there. How much are you paying for fire and how much you paying for police and how much you paying for, you know, the the sewer that we're talking about, you know, storm water that we're talking. There's got to be a way to figure that out. So, um I I think we need to >> I like what Kevin's doing. Page five. Is it on >> police that? >> No, but you have to then convert to their to their property value >> and and I do that in the at the truth and taxation. I I go through what a a median valued home is paying >> for. Okay. the different, you know, >> services. Yeah. >> Well, and my question too is this 16% 16% increase or 11% depending on how you look at it. How does that compared to other cities in an Elk County? >> Um I I know when I went to >> saying >> uh meeting earlier Oh, nope. They didn't talk about levies. They haven't I don't I haven't really seen very much information on levy increases. The what I had heard about was more like uh wage increases. >> I thought when we got something in the mail and I don't remember if it's the tax forum wrote or the estimated tax it compared with different >> other cities and I've seen it. I think it was >> I don't remember what form >> I think maybe maybe El Grove is sending it out. I think they sent that out a lot a couple mayors. >> I don't remember if the truth and taxation notice says something on the back. Yeah, there's something there. >> I know one year they had a a different format that I would say there wasn't a finance director that really liked it because it didn't give you the whole story. It it didn't tell you things and it generated like some other questions that they could have easily answered on that. >> Why is it going up or what's the cost? The highest cost. I think >> but I quick and don't hold it me exactly to it, but a $250,000 house would probably pay next year $71 for the storm water. Like I say, you're it's based on your value and so your value is is ex you know on lower homes are is excluded. So um >> but I would just argue and that that's that's why we got here with the MS4. I would argue it's the same with police. If if you're in a more expensive home and you're a less expensive home, you're paying less for police. You're paying less for fire. It it applies to it isn't just the storm water. Applies to every category. >> Yes. >> Dry faster. >> I don't know that one. >> But I So, I mean, I think we have to give Darcy at least a general feel about whether to continue with the MS4 as she's got it on here or not. So, are we in I I know it was mixed reaction last time. I'm still in favor of keeping them as far as you got it proposed here. I I don't know how the rest of the council feels here. >> I mean, so if you put it on the tax levy, that means we don't have to generate 3,000 statements. We don't have to take in payments for >> if we get like probably 60 70% of them to pay. Then we special assess a bunch. We don't have that means we don't go through that whole process. We just put it to the levy and be done. >> You have an estimated cost savings though. >> Sorry, I should postage is like 73 cents now. >> Crazy. And well, and we pay somebody to print them and stuff them. I want to say that's uh there 3,000 um probably 3,000 or more at the be in the spring and then another couple thousand in the fall to do the special assessment notices. >> I I think I mean I agree with um saving the cost, saving the staff the headache of dealing with each individual that's mad about getting an individual card. I think that's ridiculous because it's >> either way these storm water improvements have to be done and somebody has to pay for them at some point, right? But people don't seem to understand that. They see the word water, they say our water is too expensive, ready and they link the two, which >> I don't. >> Yeah, they're completely unrelated. Um, and I think too it's it's you're not hiding it. you're making it easier for the city to apply it and actually saving people money in theory because you're not incurring all those extra costs of staff time to deal with it, printing the notices and all that. So, it's it's one of those things, but I just want council to be prepared and understand that you are going to get those questions. you are going to get probably accused of hiding it in the taxes now because we the reason we did it individually was to be transparent. It doesn't do anything for you unfortunately and we're not hiding it but it's going to be viewed as that or perceived as that by some people that are mad about it or wondering where it went. Um and then the individuals that watch those things that complain every year about the $72 or 60 whatever dollars are going to wonder what am I paying now? And some of those people are not going to be happy because they have large plots of land and expensive properties and they're going to be paying more. So those questions are going to come up and Darcy I hope you're ready for those phone calls too because we're probably going to end up having to direct them to you too. So >> well and just saying >> and maybe you know you learned this before I was on but how do businesses pay for um this and like apartment buildings and everything do they like it's all just based on valuation? of the property, not >> and and commercial and industrial is a different beast, you know, because they don't have they have different calculations on theirs. And um actually like uh several years ago when they put in this amount that you know that you could exclude well that what that did was it pushed those dollars over onto commercial industrial because commercial industrial didn't get that. So they picked up that tab their taxes went up. Was that a year or two years ago when Mark was in the audience? The business owner did >> um the exclusion has been in for several years, but >> um >> something a couple years a revalued commercial and industrial a couple years ago >> and had a lot of increases. And I haven't seen like I say I haven't seen what the revalued properties are yet. That number is is yet to come. >> I got a question. Kate, maybe you can answer this, maybe not. What's this do to stifle commercial uh interest in St. Francis? Bob King is paying $60 for whatever parcel, but Bob has a lot of property. Other people have some larger properties. Mr. Jones has some properties. could stifle uh I mean I it's kind of a guessing by golly but if I'm thinking about Vista Prairie what is their what is their storm water percentage going to be even though they get a tax abatement >> you know >> yeah mayor and count council so it's interesting with economic development and taxes you know in Oaka County for years has has held back property taxes uh with the attempt to attract new businesses they've used that as part of their marketing however we've watched a lot of businesses go to, you know, Dakota County, for example, where you've got Shutterfly and you've got all these large industries that have actually gone to the more expensive counties or or same or similar counties. So, in the greater scheme of the county, we've never seen somebody go, I'm going to come to Anoka County because the taxes are less. Um, when you look at development even within Anoka County, you know, a lot of our development is Rapids, Columbia Heights, Blaine, Fidley, and it's in that corridor. Businesses aren't looking for great taxes. They're looking for transportation. They're looking for a workforce. I think we're still going to get the businesses we're going to get. Um taxes get used a lot on the table, but it's really not as important when somebody is trying to figure out if we had really low taxes, but we don't have a workforce, they're still not going to come. So, it plays a part, but it is not a strong part in a lot of the economic development efforts. >> And location so important. >> Like state is probably the bigger driver of that when they give like tax breaks like the film industry. Now, they all go to Atlanta instead of Hollywood. get breaks there markets like that or when Amazon's going to build their whatever they're going to look for certain areas where they can get breaks like that. That's usually the state level. >> Yes. >> Any other general questions? >> Just wanted to do just want to quick go down. I mean it's not an official vote but just give a consensus vote to Darcy on two things. one is the MS4 and second the overall proposal as she's presenting it here. I just have one more question and it's kind of trivial but I still want to ask it. Is the the budget from 2025 to 2026 I noticed how like the city council budget went up and I don't understand that. And then there's everything kind of goes up which I get some of it like administration you got increases things like that. Um hiring more people that we didn't have necessarily on last year's budget things like that but then city council why would that change? Um, I think there was a lot of the there's some computer stuff that is associated with you, the newsletter, all of that. >> Okay, >> that is going up. You don't you haven't voted in a salary increase for yourself for a long time. So, that's not generating it. But, >> um, I remember just looking at what's been charged to you for newsletter and computer consulting. That's going up. >> Oh, that makes sense. Um, I guess MS4 on the tax roles, we can try that. I don't have an issue with that. I think it's I I do want to kind of go on record, whoever watches these things that uh I do believe, Mark, your intentions are honorable and they're not trying to hide anything. Um, just be prepared because we are going to hit some people with >> Fair enough. And overall, you're okay. Comfortable. Yeah, it's we've I think staff's always done a good job with the preparing for it. It's nothing we ever like to see is the increases, but it happens every year and it's unfortunately what we need to deal with. And it's I think we're I think we're on on I don't think I mean I don't think you can cut anything. I don't think there's anything that I can argue to say, you know, we want to do this or do that, but save so much to where it's going to save money that isn't necessary. So, I would have to go with what you have here. May I make one? I mean, going through calculations, if you even if you would cut $100,000, it's doesn't do a lot to an individual's. You really have to cut to see. >> We talked about reserves last year and if you use what, $200,000 in reserve, it might have saved somebody $10 in a year. Like, it's really nothing, which is crazy because, you know, oh, it's $10 here, it's $10 there, and that stuff does add up. But at the same time, like she said, we tried to cut I think it was $200 and it ended up being like roughly $10 a year for people with what a dollar a month you're going to save people. >> Yeah, I don't have an issue with this. >> Amy, >> um I just had a couple numbers circled here. Um on page four, um intergovernmental that's a pretty big number in there. What does that mean? Um 832,000. Oh, they don't that is our LGA and any grants, any money that would come from the state. So, it's the big one is LGA. That's the biggest part of that. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> And then um on page five um community development, it says 333,000 um is community development building. >> What does that mean? No, >> no, building is underneath it. community the in total uh building and the community development like uh director is the same classification but we have two different departments. So we have a community development and we have a building. >> Okay. >> So yep um that that's all I circled um except one more this page um two. Weirdly, in 2020, we had $2,32 for TIFF, but we didn't have anything any other year. I thought that was weird. >> Something to do with >> Yeah, we had started that. That's We had started something. We approved a tiff at one point and it never got off the ground, but there might have been some or something maybe. >> And that >> okay >> that there is like levy amounts that is on was on the um uh >> tax. Yes. And yes, they did we did have that tiff district and they had started it and we had to cancel it because it didn't go through. And so th those those >> there's a there was a value in there for one year. >> Okay. >> It wasn't it wasn't the >> only one I remembered. >> Okay. Those were all my questions. Um I I guess I'm I am on board with both questions. Um I wish that the storm water could be on a separate line. Um and I wish it could be the same for every property. Um but it can't. So um so I am >> mail out cards. we could mail out cards. But um so I wish that's kind of how I envisioned it, but I didn't I didn't realize that that wasn't possible. Um my only other comment is I know everything all all expenses everywhere just keeps going up and up and up for us, for you know the general public, just everywhere. And I just would like to see one of these numbers go down at some point because it's just I I just don't like putting a number in there just because oh it's going to go up you know and then oh if we don't use it and then you get into that year oh if we don't use it we lose it. Um, so I don't know. I just think that it would have been good if we could find somewhere to kind of sharpen our pencil with >> good develop >> development. Anything else? >> No, >> sir. >> Well, I'm I'm on board with with both. Again, I know we're going to get the calls. We're going to hear from people. Um, that's part of our that's part of our job. So, um I' I'd like to see us really push push for something to get people to come, but again, we're going to probably get a handful that show up whenever there's something big going on. And yeah, increases are never fun, but we have to maybe keep people's phone. >> Kevin, let me say that some people are agreeing to both. We're still talking about MS4 only. We're still going to talk about sewer and water. Yeah, sewer water is a whole separate cost. >> Okay, cool. >> Um, question. Community development. What What entails 398,000? What do we What's the 398 cover? What's it for? >> Well, it' be the salaries for the community development director and the community development specialist. Um, you know, they're comm they have some they have some economic development, they have some engineering fees, and I know we had to up it because you're starting the comp plan, >> correct? Mayor Council, we had to put an amount in to anticipate roughly that first half of the comp plan. >> Okay. And building inspections, again, we have a salary for an inspector. Do permits come into play at all? They they'll pay some of that back at all? >> Yeah, that's on the revenue side. >> So, if you looked at the page before that page that you're looking at, >> it's in unknown, too. >> It's in licenses and permits, >> right? Okay. >> Yeah. And then pioneer days. We have 153 and now we're at 253. I know we uh we wrapped our arms around the garbage and refuge side of things. What's the 15 from 25? >> I know there's fireworks involved which comes out of the liquor fund. >> It's the 15. >> Yeah. Um let me find >> Oh yeah. Um, so the 15,000 is the fireworks and then remember we decided to pay those bills for instead of passing it >> like making a the >> the refuse electricity and >> yeah, we just pay for those now instead of going back and forth and >> giving them money making a donation. So I'm You had said that you were going to go for that for like two or three years for sure. >> Yeah. >> And they'd have to come back. >> And then doesn't that how's that reflected? Does the liquor store pay for both the 15 plus the extra 10? >> No, the liquor store transfers 15,000. >> Okay. >> When we get over to doing that. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So there's a transfer in um if you look at the >> Yep. I saw that on page four. >> There's a transfer. It's $70,000 from the liquor fund. >> 15 of that is >> for the fireworks and the remaining portion just is their transfer to help the general fund with ex, you know, like >> he my salary is paid out of the general fund, but I do their finances and stuff like that and payroll and stuff and all of that. >> All right. >> As far as MS4, I'm on board with that as well. I mean this seems like a the most equitable way to do it as far as the city's concerned and money saving etc. As far as the land owners and whatnot again I don't know like I said some other municipalities have been going by their roof the roof square footage of their roofs um to curb frontage to their homes. It's been all kinds of formulas and and whatnot. I'm very serious about paying for a sign and and giving them plenty of exposure and then we can actually say we did our very best and if they want to rant and rave and be upset and you know but to explain this budget process again those who come will know those who don't come didn't want to know. So but I'm very serious about putting a one of those signs out in the corner if they'll if you'll allow us and I will be more than happy to pay for it. the most as much exposure as we can get especially when we're talking about the sewer and why it's going to be an education informal or informational thing as well as far as you know we'll have Paul here and Paris here and they can say why we're doing what we do you know why we're anticipating these costs and whatnot because there's some mandates coming from the state that we have to fulfill and it's got to come from somewhere just like the storm water was a mandate that they said go measure silt in the bottom of the silt ponds and the parking ponds and it just It's something it's our obligation and there's no other way to fulfill it. You know, nobody else is going to pay for it. So, >> we need to educate people on this. >> Exactly. And it's upfront and personal again. If you want to come and you'll learn. If you don't, you have no room to be squawky, but they'll they're going to squawk anyway. So, and and I would too if I didn't know as much. I mean, we're fortunate enough to be immersed in and learn about this stuff because we have to. Um, but you know, I feel more fulfilled than we know. >> Yeah. I like to know rather than not know, too. The priorities make time for what? >> I got it. >> Anything else good? >> Nope. I'm no surprise. I'm fully on board with the switch to the MS4. >> I just think it's a more efficient way. And the reality is, what is it? 800 people a year or I think it was 800 people a year of our citizens aren't paying the MS4. I mean, we're assessing it to them, but we have to pay the fee to have it assessed to their taxes. Well, they get charged a 10% fee to cover that, >> right? But I'm just saying it's extra. It's extra >> It's extra work. >> Extra work that I think we just got to avoid. As far as the overall budget, this is exactly what I asked for. I know Kate asked me what I'm hoping for. I said, "Just show me a balanced budget." So, this is what it is. Now, here's my problem. It's the same problem I had back in the fall before. What? What? What? It's nothing nothing with the numbers. It has the overall philosophy. We as citizens of St. Francis are going to take a tax hit. We do every year. But I'm I'm not I'm not saying we shouldn't have a tax increase. Of course, we're going to have a tax increase. Inflation drives everything up. Here's where my problem lies. Even if it's a token $100,000 or $200,000, what we're telling the citizens is you either have to come up with more revenue or you've got to cut expenses >> in their personal >> in their personal lives. We as a city, we're not going to take any cuts. We're going to keep everything the same. >> That's up to you though. You could decide to do that, but you have to ask yourself what department and what service do I and and that's that it always becomes an argument on a state level, federal level, any city level. And I just say, well, then you got to trim the hundred,000 evenly across the board. Then I I I you you get my point. My point is as a citizen, as a private citizen, I either got to increase revenue or I've got to cut expenditures. But as a city, we're not going to do that. We're going to keep business as exactly the same as we are now, >> going up 10% every year or whatever. >> And so I'm not opposed to taxes going up. I recognize that taxes are going to go up. That's not the issue. It's it's got to be a shared sacrifice sort of deal. So I for right now, I'm very comfortable with this. I I appreciate your work and I'm not upset with anything you've done here. That that that's what I asked for. But we and I appreciate your question. I may entertain you for a few seconds, but hang bear with me. But we as citizens are asked those two choices. And I know what Mike's going to say. And Mike's going to say you can increase revenue by development. But that but what what's and we'll talk about that later but that as I read the statement at the last meeting that that comes with pitfalls. We don't talk about when you build the apartment building you don't talk about the part that we gave away at least a $500,000 parcel for free to basically to a developer. We don't talk about that part of the equation. We don't talk about the fact that the apartment creates more wear and tear on our roads and bridges and it creates more police calls. It creates more fire calls. We don't talk about the minus side of the apartment complex. All we talk about is the plus side of the apartment complex. Well, there's a negative side to the apartment complex, too. And we never put a number to that. >> There's also a negative side of trying to give away land that then people don't even want it when it's free. I mean, you we tried to sell lots for a dollar and if we don't get that development, we don't get that revenue. So, it's >> it's a problem on both sides. And I don't disagree with what you just said, but there is there's there's always a positive or negative to any situation depending on what side of the fence you're on. >> Then how come we never talk about the negative side? >> How come we always talk about just the positive side? We never talk we never put a dollar amount that extra police, fire, wear and tear on the roads and bridges. We never talk about the $500,000 that taxpayer taxpayer money went to buy those lots and to clear those lots. We never talk about that side of the equation. Well, there's that's I think with that lot there's that's a little unfair as far as clear it because it needs to be cleared for other reasons too. But I think too it's it's we do talk about those things. We talked about I brought up the crime that we have in the current apartment buildings that we have which is very minimal to where that crime doesn't sound like we're going to need to hire another officer to cover. Um there's things that we we do investigate, we do look into depending on where our priorities lie, right? And it's it's again individual priorities, different perspectives in every situation. Um, but like I say, it's if you don't get development and costs continue to go up, that's that's my argument for for the building, right? Um, obviously the residents that were here that showed up felt differently. Council felt differently and that's okay. That's why we have five people. It's an uneven number that we come to a vote and we accept the the decision whatever is made. But we do talk about those things. I think it's you guys talked about what you felt was negative about the apartment. I talked about what I felt was positive. I was in favor of it. you were, you know, so I I do think those things are talked about depending on what side of the fence you're on. Again, the word the EDA just put up the east shop site next to Casey there for market value. We tried to give that lot away for I don't know how long. I'll be interested to see if I would love to see a business take it for that price. I would love that more than anything, but I don't understand how it's going to go for that price when it didn't before. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and and and I have no problem trying to get it get that. But it's it's give and take when you're trying to develop things and it's the reason you do those things. It's a sacrifice now which you may or may not agree with. Obviously you didn't agree with and that's fine. But I think those things are talked about and to say they're not I think it's a little >> fair. No. So I hear your point. I do I do Joel but tell me tell me tell me when we talked about >> tell me when we talked about how much we spent because I haven't got a straight answer on this yet. Kate's giving me some rough estimates on it yet. Do do we know what we have invested in that land behind subway between knocking buildings down between clearing trees between all the title work transferred between all >> overall how much we paid in the first >> exactly you couldn't that's that's the problem >> it's been many years but yeah I >> that's the problem and it wasn't talked about in the two EDA meetings when we decided to sell it for $5,000 nobody asked how much do we have into this piece of property and even just the simple answer of how much did we pay for it not all the maintenance and all that you know like it I understand taking that you getting that actual number would take a lot of time to to figure that out, but nobody even discussed it. It wasn't even part of the two EDA meetings. >> Nobody asked that question. >> Nobody asked that question. And and >> don't you think that should be a question that should be asked? >> I mean, it factors in the things, but it's the thing again. It's it's unfortunately if we're in a more desirable location, and I I love St. Francis. I love this area. Okay, that's not I'm not trying to bash on St. Francis. I don't think because we have $2 generals it's a terrible place to live, right? I think that the fact that it's unfortunate that the location we are in the very top of the metro area um and the population that we have that it's I mean Bman used to always say too when you get to that 10,000 mark is kind of when businesses want to come in. Well, you can argue whether or not things are good or bad, right? If a Walmart moved in here, some people would be happy, some people would hate it, and you'd probably put some of these businesses out of business, right? So, there's positive and negatives to everything, and that's what happens. But it's to get to that point to want things here. Then you get people that move up here. And I'm I'm a person that moved up here from Rapids, but I moved up here for affordable housing when I moved out here in 07. Costs continue to rise. Um, the wastewater facility obviously affected things. every year costs go up and you try to you can try to minimize it all you want but it's if you're gonna ask too what are we going to give up as a city we have to look at things too whereas um not a shot across the bow but like I voted against the the fire department um not that you don't necessarily need them but it's can we work without them can we struggle there that's going to put stress on Dave and the rest of the department too if you don't hire those people so there's a negative effect to not hiring those people too um financially is the positive part right you save So, it's there's things too that we have to look at and we have to you have to make some concessions sometimes to get that development to get that revenue which sucks because of our location. Now, you can say no and say no but then costs go up for each household too. If we're not developing we're not building and it doesn't mean we build for building sake like your your article too from the last time you read it. It's I get that too. That's where it's a perspective thing too. It's there's just a lot I think that goes into it that it's not I do think the positive and negatives are talked about depending on where you sit, right? Um every development that we've had that we've looked into whether we've agreed to it or turned it down. Uh you get people that are for it or against it and I do think it's talked about I guess is the best I could say. But it's there are there are definitely things in each any situation. Um you can argue about fireworks at Pioneer Days, the positive and negative of having those. I mean you can argue about anything, right? So, it's it just comes down to I think what what is your priorities? What is your goals? And if you're going to have if you're going to say what are we going to give up or where where are we going to get these down? Um Rob we used to always go back and forth with and he wanted let's cut 5% across the board is what he wanted and you ask him where do you want to cut it from? And for a long time he would ask what do you mean I don't want to cut services? Where the hell you saving money then? Because if we do keep things status quo, that stuff, every dollar is tied to something, right? In theory, um, you know, it's sometimes you're under budget, sometimes you're over budget, you figure it out, it balances out. But all those all those dollars are connected to something. So if you want to cut 5% from where is the question? If you want to cut something, then where are we cutting it from or what are we giving up? And what is it that the people want less of? Talk about parks. people like the parks or you have the parks commission and and if the few people that have spoken up in favor um you know it's >> just for clarification >> where do you want to take it from >> just for clarification though I know we talked about this before it's not a cut it's a decrease in the increase they're asking for which results in a cut but it is not a cut I'm not asking for us to not increase the budget across the board everywhere it's an increase in budget which results if if you make >> if you make these decisions because you're you're it results in a cut, but it's not a cut. Your revenue is still increasing. >> I get what you're saying, but I I think too though if you if you're if you're increasing it less, that means you're not giving somebody a 3% raise or your >> sometimes sometimes it means you have to make hard decisions like I'm sorry, you know, I keep picking on this and it's I just use it as an example, Paul. I'm not that upset about but sometimes you got to make decisions like no fire pole or no dog park. >> Yeah, >> that's that's what I'm talking about. It doesn't have to all always immediately result in a cut to fire or police. There's other ways of trimming it. And here's here's one other question I need to ask this to all everybody here. My city portion of my taxes, it's public information. Anybody can look it up, has gone up 16% over 16% in some years for the past three years. When when when do I as a citizen say this is this has got to stop. 16% 16% 16% that's just the city portion of my taxes >> right here. >> Well, that's that's that's why I'm talking about making a sacrifice. I I I'm saying that what how do you answer a citizen like me who comes and says my taxes have gone up from the city of St. Francis 16% each year for the last three years. What do you how do you answer that? >> Well, and that's where I'm asking you is where do you and I asked you that when you were sitting out there is where do you want it to come from? >> I just gave you some suggestions going forward. I'm not talking about taking the talk park down or anything like that, but I'm just I'm just saying going going forward, we're putting up a fence here along the along the public works. Is it really needed? I don't know that it's really needed. That was $5,000 or $8,000. It's that kind of stuff that I'm talking about. And I would I I get that you can't just say every every state, every city, every federal government, everybody's argued about this. I can't be here. It can't be here. So maybe the best way is across the board and directors have to say, "Okay, I got to take $20,000 out of my budget for whatever this year." I don't know. But that's what I I'm just telling you where I'm coming from and what I'm asking for. >> I think it's a lot easier said than done. >> So that's something too that I threw out there. It's >> if you if you decrease money for the police department, you can tax those officers to where the service they're providing uh the morale can go down, things like that. And that can affect how how better they serve our citizens. I'm not saying more money makes them service better. It really depends on the attitude and the leadership, which I do think we have good leadership. Um, you know, but there's things too that I know when I worked for a company that I was working non-stop overtime and I was act like it did affect my my my behavior, right? Should it have could I should I have been a better person? Probably. But there is times where as a human being it taxes you that much. It affects your morale. It affects how you perform. And in a lot of these, especially emergency services, that's the most important. Um, you know, I Paul, I'm sure it would affect his people, too. >> That's kind of why what I'm to to your point because I totally agree with you. That's why I'm not asking for it. I mean, Darcy said it herself. 100,000 $200,000 is a drop in the bucket, but at least at least it's something because we're just operating like we don't have to make any cuts. We don't have to make any anything. Citizens have to make make all that. And >> we had that reserve talk last year. I mean, is that something you want to explore or >> potentially? >> I'm I'm just asking I'm just asking for some sort of stock fight. If it moves the needle a fraction of an inch, that's all I'm asking for. I'm not I'm I'm not one of these flat text people who doesn't believe we should increase the budgets or overall. That's not what I'm asking for. >> That's part of the issue, too, is that a lot of people don't I think realized it's the hard part. It's a hard hard conversation to have, but for years we didn't do a lot of things and we didn't provide services to the best of our ability either to where I do think that we were playing we have been playing catchup for a long time and I think we still probably are in some some aspects. I think we've come a long way since, you know, 16 when I got here. But there was a lot of things too that and some things that you could argue too. You know, we may maybe we hired too many people here or there in my opinion, but they're here and, you know, we're performing things. Um, but at the same time, it's just one of those things that I think it's it's it's easier to sit here and say that. And when it comes down to exactly where you want to get it from, that's the hard part is finding out where it is. And to just put it on the department heads, too, it's that's tough, too. But if that's what you want to do, that's, you know, that's something too to explore in the future, too. I get what you're saying with the, you know, with the dog parks and things like that. And that's part of providing services to the people too of what do I where are my taxes going? Where, you know, because people don't realize that, you know, I I try to avoid calling 911, but when I do call them, I'm glad they'll be there, you know. So, >> well, and I mean, I agree with you, Joe, that there's pros and cons to everything. and whatever the decision is, like maybe I voted no on something and you voted yes, but we still agreed with each other in some of the some of the the reasons for our decisions. Um, you know, everybody comes from a different place. You moved up here for a reason. I moved up here because I I wanted less traffic and, you know, some more space and that's why I moved up here. And I hear that a lot that people moved here because they wanted it to be more timing, too. >> Tight. Yeah. I mean, it all depends. And so, >> the bubble >> and so and I I just I know we're going to talk about water water and sewer here, but I just everybody says we need more development. We need more development. So, this the water and sewer rates will go down. And I just I understand that that's that's a topic for for a lot of folks. But I just don't think it should be the only reason that we want development here. And and I think that sometimes that that sounds like It is like the only reason we want development here is is because the water and sewer will go down because you have more people and I think that >> and maybe I don't mean only but the the like the top priority for a lot of folks is get the water and sewer rates down which I think is important but I don't think we should >> just develop develop develop just just for that. Um so that's that's where I'm going. I I mean I I did say I I wish some of these numbers had gone down. I mean, if if someone the department heads, anybody could just just use your pencil and sharpen a little bit and be like, "Do I really need this to go up this much?" Or, you know, "Do I really do I really need this or do I really need that?" Um, that's what your to your point, Mark, that's what people do at home. Um, when their expenses go up out of no control of their own, um, they have to figure out how they're going to make ends meet. and a lot of kitchen table discussions happen and and you you feel like we're not sitting around the kitchen table trying to figure it out. We're just letting the the homeowners do that. That's how I think I heard you say. Well, >> thank you. >> So So I I would be on board with going forward, like I said, but I I would be thrilled if a few of these numbers went down or what you're saying, you know. >> So as presented, I think I mean I as presented I think we go forward. I'm just I'm just saying come September. I'm just telling you, I'm just giving everybody the heads up that that this is my belief. I I'm not I'm not going to budge from this. I think we got to I think we have to share it. And and so it may it may very well be a no for me when when the time comes. I don't think we're there right now, but I appreciate seeing that even appropriate budget. So, thank you for your work. I don't think I don't think there's much else to discuss right now on this >> on the M. So the MS4 and this are pretty subtle >> unless you've got questions. >> Well, the that the levy as it's stated here will be what is presented in September for you to >> uh set as your preliminary levy. >> Okay. >> And then remember from there when you go to December you can't go up except for some extenduating circumstances. Um, you could only go down, >> right? Thank you. Anybody anything else on >> I kind of do. >> Go ahead, Kevin. >> Um, you know, to to cut or not cut to not increase, is it a token or would it be is it something effective? And you say you might be a no vote come September. >> That's your prerogative. And what if you get another no vote? What if we get three no votes? There's how many people here? Then where are we at? So the thing is null and void. So we we start over. It's your duty to to tell them where how how to get you to I guess and it's up to them to try to >> and I've looked at these numbers too, you know, over the last the years I've been doing this and even today is there's no magic potion. And I know Kate said we've sat down as department heads and we put our heads together and then I look at these individual things as far as it really is percentages, very singledigit percentages. Where would you cut? And I the same as you sometimes I figure it's not good to have nice things because again, you know, a guy I could move. I could resign my position here and move because the tax it's public knowledge. I think it's over $6,500 a year. That's a lot of money. And I go, do I want to do this? If I leave, somebody will buy my house and just take my place and they'll come to maybe a meeting or two, maybe not. But it just, you know, I agree with you. I agree Joe uh responded very eloquently in what he had to say, but what is the answer? I know what you want, but what can we really listen what can you have? >> If you sat down with the chief and said >> for eight hours you sit in an office and look at each other and go, what do we do? Okay, what do we do? What do we do? And I I've asked myself the same question. What do we do? >> But do we all complain about state and federal taxes? And this is exactly what this is exactly conversation to happen on a state and a federal level. exact same conversation. We can't cut here, can't cut here, we can't cut. Nobody can cut. So what happens? 16% increase this year, 16% increase next year, 16% the year. >> But when you plant that flag, where what >> again, is it a token or is it effective? I mean, that's the thing. >> My only issue with that argument though is too is if if I think the city level is the most intimate that a taxpayer can be with because we're right here. It's all right here. And I don't see um special funding for uh you know subsidizing really a lot. You can argue the baitment whatever is considered subsidizing which I understand that uh that viewpoint too right. But I don't see like the state to me the state and federal have a lot more um giveaway so to speak or waste you could say and I think the Doge which I wouldn't mind seeing some you know let's you want to go through the the city too and find out where you can you know where you got the waste or whatever by all means I encourage that. I just think if you're going to tell them I'm I'm probably going to vote no in September, that's unfair to the department heads because you need to tell them how to get you to a yes and they can look at and see what they can do or not. >> I'll be happy to sit down with any one of them if they want to sit down. I'll be happy to sit down with anybody though. You got to approach them and tell them how to get you there. >> Well, that's your job. >> But the department heads are the expert. >> That's why we hire a city administrator, Joe. Why we hire department heads. >> It's not my job to go out and tell you what kind of lawn mower to buy. >> Yeah. They're the the department heads are the experts in their department. They they should be able to if we ask them to cut expenses somewhere, they're the ones who are going to be able to say where it can be cut. And I mean, we're not in there every day, you know, doing the jobs that their their folks are doing. So, >> just remember, every cut affects every citizen. Just because when we cut something from police, when we cut something from parks, when we cut something from fire, when we don't develop, it costs everybody money. We had people sit here and tell me flat out, raise our city water, raise our se rates, just don't bring in an apartment. If they're willing to tell me that, then I don't want to hear them complaining about it because they could help cover, they could help bring things down. They're not doing those things either. They're not. They're telling me, "I'd rather have no apartment. I don't want our roads done. I don't want this done. I don't want that done." Until their road isn't done. And then they're coming in here and complain to us when we have this lovely s system that they're not getting these huge assessments on their roads. We're giving them services. We're giving them stuff for that money. We're not just willy-nilly it out there. and and it it stinks that the only way that we can really give them a break is development when they don't want that. That's our point. >> That is the biggest thing that we can do for them is help them is to bring in businesses and to bring in apartments and to bring in housing. We don't have housing. When when I need to move, I got whether I want to be on council or not, I'm out of here because there is absolutely nowhere for me to move. But but I'm just going to tell you conversations I had. I just had one with a couple I met at a funeral >> or I could I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt. >> But I'm just saying that we are offering them things and they are rejecting them. So in that matter they are saying we are okay with these increases. We'll have to figure it out at home. They're going to come here and complain about it. But every time you tell me no to development, every time you say not in my backyard, you're saying okay to these things because everything is going to cost more. >> I would I I would encourage you though I I'm going telling my story here about the couple never met him before. I said they moved to St. Francis three years ago. They said they love St. Francis and they were talked about the apartment building thing and here was their response. They said I moved to St. Francis and nine out of 10 people I talked to, nine out of 10, not 50% say they moved to St. Francis to get away from the city. That's why they moved to St. Francis. >> How how do you how do you answer that when you're talking about developing and turning into the city they just moved away from? >> They moved here to have the small city to have that. Then they have to understand that cost them more premium. >> That's what you get. That's what that's your personal choice. You made that choice. you made here, you moved here. If you didn't research what our study of water and sewer were, that's not on me. If your realtor lied to you about, that's not on me. But if you come here and you want it to be small, you have to realize your portion costs more. That's the bottom line. >> So, if I want a big house, it's going to cost me more. >> Do you think >> if I want a small house, it's going to cost me less. That it's just the way it is. If you don't want growth and development, then you are accepting the fact that it's going to cost you more to live here because we are giving our residents services. Cut police. Guess what? Anoka County is going to come in way more or way less services. Want to I mean fire, we have other communities needing us to help them because we have we have stability. That's a lot of things. We have a stable council. That's something you look around our other cities, they don't have that. They don't even they don't have stable staff. I mean, I'm not stable, but everybody else is. Um, but that's just that's one of the things. If you want the small, then things cost you more. If you don't want a Walmart, which I don't want Walmart, but if you don't want some of those other things coming in here, then you have to accept the fact that yeah, it's going to cost more because cost sharing is what brings down your cost. >> And it is your job to tell them what lawn mower >> he wants the rider that's, you know, efficient, whatever. That saves time. Or you can give him the little Simpsons one that he's walking down with the blades cutting it. >> You're you're >> just saying you're you're splitting hairs. You're you're telling me that. So, what you're telling me, what I'm hearing you, and I don't believe this, but you're telling me here is there's no waste in the city of St. Francis. >> I didn't say there's no waste. What I said is that people have to understand if you want small, things are going to cost you more. When you only have one grocery store, county market is going to cost you more than if you have a store over here and a store over here. It's just it's the give and take. I grew up in a small town. It did cost more. it it just everything did because there aren't the number of people. And if you're okay with the number of people being here and you don't want growth, then you also are accepting the fact that things are going to cost you a little bit more. I'm not saying there's no waste anywhere. There's always waste in little places, I'm sure. But our job is to do the best that we can. And I think that when people are sitting here telling me they don't want growth, then I my job is to tell them which I did. I said then everything's going to increase and they all >> but that's a small sample. We the majority of the people I think have tolerance is a key word there. They like Joe says they don't come. They don't make noise. They don't voice their opinion. They don't write letters. They have tolerance for it. They just figured, I guess I'm going to have to work harder to keep the things I got coming my way, which is police, fire, roads, bridges, a good administration, etc. So, we're seeing a small percentage. I get your point, though. It makes it makes sense. And we we heard a few of those people here say that, but >> and I think we we hear even more people on the internet, which isn't doesn't count. >> They're super >> all the time. No, but just saying that they want they want to they moved here to be small. We see that a lot. I don't I can I can take that as that's why they moved here. I don't think they're lying about that. >> But again, it's like, you know, you grow up in a in I grew up in world. You wanted to go shopping, you drove to Thief River Falls or you drove to Grand Forks. That cost you more money. That cost you more because you had to drive your car. There was no other way to get there. There wasn't a bus. There wasn't train. There was nothing. That's all part of something that you just had to accept. There wasn't a Costco. There wasn't There was nothing. You You paid more for your groceries. You paid for for your gas because it's a small community. That's what happens. >> So, let's finish the question. Mayor, if you are a noble and you turn one or two more individuals here at the county the same way, >> I try to turn anybody just for >> Well, you know what I'm saying. I shouldn't say turn. That's not the right terminology. So then this is all mood point then. So where do we go from here? Do we >> then it would be a direction to Darcy to let's just say it's a $100,000 or $200. I'm just going to use a hypothetical number. I don't know that. >> But that puts the burden on her and takes it off of us. >> I'm not afraid to make the decisions. I I'll make the decisions across the board and say every department break that $200,000 up between each department. You want me to make the decision? I'll make the decision. I'm I'm okay with that. Well, I'm not saying I disagree with with the concept of what you're talking about. I just it's how you go about it and and where would you know what's the what's the first thing that >> Yeah. >> say without an actionable >> path forward then I think it's unfair to say it I guess is my point. I don't want to keep splitting hairs. I think we should >> I just made I I just just I just made I just made my recommendation just across the board. What are we talking about? We're talk, let's just use a hypothetical number of $200,000. What are we talking about each department? >> Well, each department is different. Like some departments have, you know, are millions of dollars. >> Yeah. You'd have to do it percentage. >> Correct. >> And you know, other departments aren't as big. So, but it's kind of like >> I look at it as like what kind of what service is low on the totem pole for you? You know, >> I just think we have to I don't have it right. >> See, I have an issue with so I get your point and I get your intent, right? And I don't I don't think your intent's bad, but I think too, you're saying these things without understanding what the consequence and consequences can be positive or negative, right? Um, when you say consequences, it could be, you know, that could mean firing three people from public works and now we're saying, well, we just hired a guy to help us with this, but now we're fight we got to fire them because that's what So, when you just pick a percentage and the percentage is different, what does that percentage mean from that department? If you don't know that, I don't think it's fair to necessarily say, let's cut it across the board because we don't know how that's going to affect the services that we provide to the people. So, that's where I say it's deeper and I think it's it's a harder question. It's easier said than done because without really digging into these things, which by all means, >> how does it ever get done then, Joe? How does it how does it how does it ever stop? >> Well, and you know what, I I honestly I I trust our department heads to be pretty conservative. I think they've shown that in the past. And does that mean they don't need oversight? No. But I think too, it's it's when we agree, we vote yes or no on things when they ask for things. And that's where our cuts or uh >> lack of increase, our right sizing takes place. >> Sorry, I hate that word. >> Good semantics. But >> that's that's the only point I'm trying to make. Like I said, I don't want to sit here all night and argue the same thing. We're doing it over and over. I think we understand where each other's coming from. I think I personally think we can move on, but I get what you're saying. I think you understand what I'm saying. And I think it's, you know, it's something that we just see each other's point and we move on. But I I don't I don't think like I'm not trying to bash you here. I just think it's it's something it's easier said than done in my opinion because there's a lot more to it. And how does it get done? That means if you want to see those cuts, that means you got to dive into and it's not what department head wants to meet with me. It's who do you want to meet with to understand it better. In my opinion, that's unfortunately that's your job, not their job. Their job is to run the day-to-day operations in our department as efficiently as possible. Not hey, Mr. Mayor, you know where >> But we set their budget. Yeah, >> we set their budget, >> right? >> It's up to them then to follow our directive when we set the budget. >> I am I am not >> saying if you're going to vote no, then you should have >> I'm perfectly comfortable to sit down with any department head or whatever else and and talk to them. It's not that's not the issue. I it's not like I have to come to them and say where could you cut anything like that? No, it it's simply across the board and I'm happy. >> It happens. It happens, but you have to sit down and go through everything and say where can I see this? >> That's not my job as mayor. Not my job. All right, Council May. So, I know we are going pretty far down certain trails with with some of this and I just I would caution >> across the board equally to every department because each department is very unique in size. Some of them I'll use recycling is very heavily funded from an outside source. It it's not it's not city dollars. If you were interested in making a cut, I would ask that you give us a dollar amount and let department heads because it may be where one department has more to give or or another one, you know, needs more. So I would say versus line by line, that would be an ask I would say put on the department heads and not try to equalize across all departments because it really isn't going to work. um building inspections, right? Heavily based on permits, recycling very heavily based on grants. So, there are some factors that that if we had an amount, we could huddle back in our room and and figure it out, but to try to to put that a same amount on every department would be very difficult. >> I think that's a I think that's fair. I me too. >> Good good point. Thanks. Thanks for bringing that up. So, if you want me to throw out an amount, I'm just going to throw an amount. And yes, it's a very token amount. Really acknowledge that $100,000. >> Well, and that's why I said too, the department heads are the experts in their field. They're the ones that would know, oh yeah, I probably could cut a little here. I could probably cut a little here. We don't know that. We're we're just we're just presented something and we vote yes or no on it. that comment though. Sorry. I just That's disrespectful to the department heads. >> I was gonna say I think Todd and I think they all I didn't mean it that way. I was sitting there going, "Oh, well, they can cut here. They can cut there." >> Saying it's whatever. >> No, I just meant that they are the experts and they would know where there might be something they cut. But I feel like when they're looking at their budgets, they're already doing that. I don't think Todd's sitting there going, "Where can I increase something?" Or Paul or anybody. I don't think they're looking at it that way. I think they're already trying their darnest to come in the lowest they can. That's just my opinion. I don't think any of our departments that are sitting here going, "Oh, well, I can just go ahead. I'm going to tell them I need this much cuz they'll give it to me. I'm good. I don't have to cut." I think they're looking at it going, "This is the bare bones of what I can do. This is what I need minimum to run my department." That's how I look at it. I don't think they're sitting there trying to make increases. I I know for a fact if Paul could c cut down costs, he would. It's It's just not They're coming to us with what they need to run their department. And if we're going to take money from the police, then guess what? We're going to lose citizens academy. We're going to lose con with a cop. We're going to lose bowling with our cops. Those are the things we're And so, okay, we saved you $3 on your taxes. I feel good. Sarah feels real good. But we took all this stuff away. We took all this stuff away from you. Now, our fire department, maybe a couple, maybe we don't need all those guys. Yeah, that's okay. Till my house is on fire. Tell I need that service. I I can't do that because I don't think any of our department heads are sitting there running rampant. I don't I think they're always looking at this is how much I need to run my department effectively and efficiently for the residents. >> Well, I think rather than beating a dead horse, we should move on. Yeah, I do. I think too that it's to Mark's point, too. >> That's up to us. When those things come to us, like are we going to do this for our parks? Are we going to do this for that? At that point, that's when you cast your vote. That's where that comes from. And then if the people want to go from there, I guess. I mean, for now, I don't think we're making a lot of headway. I mean, you got your number. So, >> I agree. But I I I I just I'd want I want to be fair and honest with you guys. So, if I don't if I don't tell you my concerns, >> no, >> but then come September, then then you're all like in shock. I'm telling you my concerns. I mean, I think I it's been a good discussion, a good dialogue, I agree with you. I don't think there's anything else to really discuss at this point. I I think the majority is is comfortable with this budget. I think it will pass. Whether I vote for it or against it, I don't know. We'll we'll see when the time comes. So I don't know. Go ahead, >> mayor and council. So in this discussion you brought up wanting to hold a town hall or some type of a work session. Is that an interest of is that a majority interest? >> I was I don't know. Are we try Kevin? Were you thinking about just doing it at a regular city council meeting? >> We yeah our council meeting usually been pretty short. I guess it's nothing special. Don't have to do anything special. I just in full I hate the word transparency but in full open honesty about and then this is too big deal since we've got a big deal I think it's worth making the effort and if you know if there's one lone person in the back booing or clapping then we'll know >> I personally think we just tie it in with a regular meeting and make it agenda item that we can open to the public right >> okay thank you just wanted to clarify >> anything else on the other discussion otherwise we're going to go to Darcy for water sewer. Go ahead, Darcy. >> Hunter's been using his hand. I don't think if he can >> I'll give you I'll give you like one minute. Hunter, I'll give Mike a minute, too, if he wants a minute. >> Where? >> Yes, please. >> Okay. Hunter Carlson at 2612 230th Court Northwest. So, there's a lot of things, so I'll just keep it short. But I think um I think a great way of looking at it is kind of like to Kevin's point is instead of trying to cut the budget, I think it's really good if you like if I'm looking at this money, right? you're going to charge me, you know, thousand some dollars for my taxes. I don't know where that's going. You know, I just look at it. I'm like, you guys are just taking my money. I think with that, like with the transparency, if you show me where my money's going, if I know exactly where it's going, and if I see, oh yes, I have these parks and you lay it all out, like you are having 24/7 coverage, you know, you have all these volunteers on your line. If you have if your house is on fire, we got you. You know, if you want your dog to go to a park, we got you. You know, I think it's more of just showing them what they're paying for. And I think that's where where people will be more comfortable if you're like, you know what, we have this many fire, you know, fire department like this fire department's going good. You got these police on your streets ready to go, you know, and you got all these programs going on of like the cone, the cop, the the citizens academy, and you just really explain it and really have some sort of like more tangible thing to show them where the dollars are going because it's very easy to look at that and be like this is so disconnected from reality for them, you know, like the money to services, but there's a this huge funnel that it goes through, right? And then there's some money taken out here and there. And I think if you explain that more, I think you would have a better chance of dealing with it that way instead of trying to just go with a line by line cutting. So that's all that's all I got. >> I totally appreciate that. I think the problem comes from the county that puts out a notice that they don't they don't allow you to do that or can they would that even be an option on your as far as I understood? >> They do not. I've tricked it to this. They do not. >> That's it be a separate mailer from the city to do that which >> you want to save your minute for the sewer water. You want to go now, Mike? I don't care. >> No, I'll save my >> I ain't done yet. >> Outside of the box. >> And just to re reiterate, you know, we do that is the idea of the first meeting in December is that is when we discuss this in full >> and they get notice and they're told to show up at that meeting to, you know, hear what the discussion is on the tax levy and the budgets. By then it's usually too late though to get any changes made and then you have the angst of going down there in December and you got to worry you might get something next year. So the sooner we I mean even September is better than December I think. >> Well I mean they come we discussed the first budget but that is the process in the state of Minnesota. >> So just that's what's been dictated to us. That's what we do. Um, and I know we're we're checking into this uh >> tax calculator, whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah, we're going to look at that. We're we're we try and get the information out, but >> And you're waiting on real information, real numbers, other entities, too. >> So, >> swim water. >> Yay. the debt. Um so this slide uh after going through expenditures um looking you know they've done their budgets on those um they did I know Paul and his guys really walk through everything that we need to maintain what we have. We have a water plant that was built back in 2008, >> you know, and then the wastewater treatment plant. Well, both of those are going to, you know, need new roofs, need, you know, other things. Um, a big thing we discovered or they discovered, sorry, not me. >> It's out there, >> was this media at the water treatment plant that we were thinking it was going to cost, you know, like what at first? 60 >> 60,000 and now we have realized it's going to be more like $800,000 to replace that. A big cost is the disposal of the old media. Right? So they went through all of that and then all of that I try and analyze and get it in there. And you've some of you have heard the term before the um you know this cash balance that we need this we we don't want to run down to nothing. We that's not a way to run a business or anything. So after looking at all of that and trying to estimate you know like what are people using for water, what are new connections and everything like that I am proposing that the 2006 water rates are going to go up the base on water and usage 25%. And then the sewer base in usage are going up five would be go up 5%. Then in 2007, water base and usage would go up 15%. Base and uh usage on sewer would go up 20%. But that doesn't mean that bill is going to go up that much because that's just the rates. What when we get to the next page, it'll show you what an actual bill was. But down on the bottom, that's showing you where the rates would go. Okay. go on. So, moving over, if somebody is using 3,000 gallons, their bill currently, if you use 3,000 gallons, and barring the look back program in the summer, I mean, 3,000 would be the same no matter what, but we have that look back program in the summer where you don't get build all of your water and sewer or all of your sewer, sorry. So 3,000 they would be paying right now 78.89 they would be going in 26 to 88.96 and then in 27 to 10465 and you can see the the bill would go overall increase would be 83% in 2026 and then 18% in 2027. This is the one graph that I I've had it before you guys that have been on council before. This is showing your cash balance versus um your recommended cash balance. And that is uh 40% of next year's expenditures plus your debt service plus your capital minus, you know, if if you do have to sell a bond. And so this is what I'm estimating the cash balance will be with those water and sewer rate increases. So you can see the blue line need should stay above that orange line and it does. Um I you know in 30 it gets quite it's way up there but 30 is uh several years out that I try and temper that a little bit but I also threw in there um if we don't do anything to our rates this is what I'm saying the cash balances would go and you can see the blue line is below the orange lines. So, with that, I'd open it up for questions. >> So, if we allow the blue line to go below the other line, what does that mean? >> You're going to have >> What do you What do you have to do then? Um, you're going to get to the point where we were in 2015 where you're going to we're send out a 8545. >> I think so. >> You know, we talked about that that we don't ever want to do that again. >> I asked for the record because that's >> what I guess I'm unfamiliar with what you're talking about. What got me here as well as Feldman and Bower and Sarah and Mike >> was the uh uh the increase we got a so I moved here from Cun Rapids which was on the M council didn't understand whatever we got a thing in the mail saying we're going to get a 85% increase in sewer and 45 in water I think it was >> yes that was because we had built the waste we were in the process of >> going to build the wastewater treatment >> and so that's kind We riled troops got everybody up in arms and we were like what the hell's going on and I came in my >> but that was a proposal 85% increase you're saying >> yeah like how do we get to 85% increase already I mean I paid for one months what I paid for three months in Rapids roughly >> is what I thought or how I felt and then obviously I was uneducated in how the funds work and how to do but that's I already knew the answer but I had to ask it for the record just because that's what happens if you don't increase it because that's part of the problem with I think even at the county level what we're seeing too is the and that's the the fine line you play where it's we're not going to increase taxes we're not going to increase taxes we're heroes and then you're gone now and everybody's like taxes are going up 28% the hell's going up so that's why I asked that question just for the record but people understand what happens if we don't increase it sucks at some point it's got to be paid for >> and we're trying to cash flow everything that we can of capital improvements. There's a couple things that there's a couple years that we just can't do it in water and sewer. So then we have to sell a bond. But then what happens is you have to then put in those bond payments and fund those bond payments. So a big one there is the highway 47 project. I we are not going to be able to cash flow that project. >> Really? >> I didn't know that. >> Can we cut 20% out of it? >> Other uh questions or comments or >> can I can I just understand where it says monthly billing? I just want to make sure I understand right. So if a person or a household uses 3,000 gallons of water currently, their bill would be 78.89 89 >> and the proposed amount for 2026 it would be8.96 and then the following year it would be 10465. >> Yes. >> Is that Am I reading that right? >> Yes. >> But no, that's you know they vary. >> Oh yeah. Every month they change a little bit. Is that would that I don't even know like does the average household use 3,000 gallons or what what is the average? Um I think >> right two to three to three. >> Yeah, I would say. But I mean there are some that you know in the summertime they're using they water a lot, >> you know. Um >> so but I would say roughly yeah three to maybe 5,000 would be a kind of a good average. you're talking I I always hate to say that because you know I go back to how often do you shower? How often do you wash your clothes? How you know do you leave the water running when you're brushing your teeth? You know it they people don't understand that >> little things can run a lot of water their system. >> Yep. So >> my build anywhere between 100 to 100 across the >> And how many people are in the household? I mean just so >> put it out there. >> Is that what you said? 125 and above >> uh one well to 120. >> That's sewer and water or just water? >> Everything >> everything >> and then storm. >> Don't do that. >> So do we if if Okay, just throwing this out there. If the building behind subway had been approved and it was 120 units, how would that affect these numbers? we would have gotten that usage in revenues. So, we would have gotten water and sewer. We would have also gotten a whacken sack from that uh apartment building. Deer Cape, do you remember what that was going to be at on that the wacken sack on that building? >> Almost a mill. >> Mayor Council. Yeah, it was almost a mill, but that included that included all cash fees. So, 7800,000 I think was just whacken. >> And so would that change the percentages that these rates would be going up for everyone? >> Yes. >> In a big way like >> Yes. And we had that we had that >> I remember we talked about it once. I just don't remember. >> Uh it was a work session and I had laid it out that you know if they use this this is what you know this is what I estimated the rates to go to. If you don't do the apartment building, this is what I >> I do remember that. I just didn't remember >> because that would have been a lot of water coming that they would have been using. Yes. >> Is it tied to the number of units or the amount of gallons people are using, the more money they create revenue, which is actually a good thing when more water is used as far as paying, >> you know, and and 120 units there. um versus like building out a property like Kate has said, building out a development of 120 houses that's going to take you years where this would have been an influx of 120 basically right now. But >> an objection, >> but just keep in mind, I mean, I totally acknowledge there's a net gain on sewer and water, but there's also added expenses on the sewer and water. It's not all the whole thing is not a net gain. When you're processing more water, >> when you're when you're when you're using more water, you're paying more electricity, you're paying more blah blah blah. So, it is a gain. I definitely acknowledge that, but it's not all a net gain. So, >> any other questions? Sewer, water, Sarah, >> I got a question, Paul, without burying the lead. 800,000 for media. Why? Why if we didn't have I guess why? What do they do with the $800,000? What? and it was 60 now it's 800,000 >> replacing that media. >> Oh yeah, Mar and council. So there are a few things we've taken a deep dive. Parish and I have really we we've gone out and got estimates on some of this stuff. I I can't tell you why it wasn't done earlier. I can only tell you that we've done it now. Um, we had no idea that it was going to be radioactive material that we're going to have to store somewhere special. >> We pull radium out of the water and that makes it radioactive. We didn't again I can't tell you why it was done earlier, but I can tell you why we did it now. And we're we're trying to get you honest costs of everything so we can give you these accurate numbers. So, this is sent to another state and shoved in a cavern somewhere and it stays there forever. >> Shine Mountain, it's a possibility. >> And if then we didn't have the $300,000 burden hanging over our head, where would all this be? Darcy. >> I mean, I know make improvements and there's upgrades. >> I mean, that's one cost. They they did a deep dive into when do um I don't know, your bulbs in the wastewater treatment plant >> and the membrane and stuff like that. when does this need to be replaced? And if that stuff doesn't last forever, get try and get an estimate of, you know, what are we going to have to maintain? >> This is the kind of education that I don't want to expose to the public whether they come here or not, whether they watch not, whether they read it or hear it or not. And, you know, that's a big deal. 800,000 and it's a pollutant for one thing, and it gets buried in the cavern somewhere. And it was back in the days it was 80 grand to get rid of it. So, >> well, another thing that was thrown out was, you know, we all talk about these chlorides. >> Yes. >> Okay. Well, one of the things they s talked about was do we have to do a remodel of our water treatment plant at some point or that's when we came up with the idea of or they came up with the idea of >> see if we can do the softener replacement program to help us with those chloride levels to push that up. Maybe that will solve our problem at $100,000 a year, right? Versus a remodel of the water treatment plant, but the state could come up and tell us that we would have to because to lower the chlorides. >> So, we're trying to do that. We're trying to find a different way of doing that. On the plus side, too, wasn't four years ago, we spent $600,000 on water meters over a period of time, and we replaced every one at the city's not city's expense, but the with our tax dollars, we made improvements to help it be more efficient department. >> Well, that's another he he looked at. Yes, that that's given us much better meter data. Um, you know, it solved a lot of our issues that when somebody comes in that particular program, they could come in and they say, "Wow, I didn't use that." And I can I can pull up that and say, "You had a bad day here. You used a lot of water here, here, here, and kind of look and they'll go, >> oh yeah, that happened." >> Or was gone for the winter and the toilet was running the whole time you were gone. >> Yeah. >> So, but and and that's another thing. those meters aren't going to last forever. So they >> Parish looked in and Paul looked into that of when do those need to replace and how can we do that and fund it because when we did that we did a lease purchase. >> So there was a interest cost to that. >> So we're trying that's a big thing is we're trying to keep from paying on top of it an interest cost. That's why we're trying to cash flow everything. You know, and I know somebody once said, "Well, I I don't know if it was maybe this building or whatever. Are you planning for replacement of the building right now?" I Yeah, it was this building. And I said, "Well, we're not because the people are paying currently for this building. Should we really be charging them for the second building at the same time?" you know, when we get done paying, let's start figuring out putting that money away. Maybe I hopefully we don't have to build another city hall for year, you know, hundred years or whatever, but start putting that money. And that's where we started the building fund, too, was okay. Uh, police public works building is how old? There's going to have to be a roof replaced or there's going to have to be, you know, whatever else replaced at that building. Let's start preparing kind of for it and having some money for that so it isn't a big shot. So >> thank you. That's all I have here. >> You guys are done, right? >> Yeah. >> I don't have really anything either. I mean it's >> it is what it is. Mike, you want your one minute? >> Sure. >> I ain't gonna lie. It's going to be more than a minute. >> All right. Roger. Um, just so everybody knows, I am the president of the EDA. Um, one question I have for you, Darcy, how many new homes would help get us out of this ugly situation we're in if we brought new homes, development into this town? Kind, it's kind of an offbeat question. I mean, how where where on water and sewer do we have to build a bunch of new homes? >> Well, we had 120 across the road. Um, >> I mean, it's a, you know, if you plop, you could plop down tomorrow or next year 120 new homes. >> Yeah, that's not going to happen. You know, I worked for one of the biggest developers in the country and when we did that Amazon and Shakipi that was amazing. There was I think every trade in the state was there plus out of state. All right. Anyways, um we talk about 16%. It's actually a little bit more just city taxes. I just read an article from the Anoka County and it comes from the federal level that changed everything with SNAP benefits. Now they have to apply twice a year. They have to double their staff. Who's going to pay for that? Every one of us. What I'm saying, folks. And I hate I know you hate me saying this, Mark. We have to think outside the box and start creating revenue because I've been sitting over here with Sarah and Kevin and Joe and and the rest of the staff here for years. These these guys cut every penny. I mean, >> if you ask Paul about my road, I've been bugging them for how long about it? And and it's it's not that I think his crew does a fabulous job. There's no doubt about it. But you can't keep putting lipstick on a pig. I think it's beautiful. We have to create revenue in this town. Um, there was talk at one time that we could have had a city-owned dispensary. I just read an article on that. It was amazing that the the liquor industry is so far behind right now in this state to the THC industry to the point where the liquor industry is worried. I don't know why we didn't put a city-owned dispensary in this town. create revenue for crying out loud. It's not that hard. You can you can only squeeze so much blood out of a turnup before the turnup's dry. We're dry right now. We have whether you like it or not, we have to develop in this town. Period. Whether we like it or not because you know what? Two years from now, you're going to have the same conversation. Another year after that, same conversation. How do you tell our fine fire department, our police department, you can't give them 3%. That doesn't even cover the cost of living for crying out loud. We're not going to get good people in this town unless we get creative. That's your job. We got land in Iani. Sell it. Sell that land. We got the land where the old ponds were. What are we doing with that? It's just sitting there. Let's do something with it. Solar garden to power this place. There's your cut, Mark. Hey, what's wrong with electric cars? They're just running around in the city. We could run it off the solar garden. Electric work trucks could run it off the solar garden. Those are things you have to start looking at, not looking at nitpicking, the guns they use, whatever. Cuz I would never ever put any citizen in this town's safety at jeopardy by making these guys cut their budget. By the way, I run about 4,000 gallons a month, and it's just me and my wife. That's probably the average in the city. and I shower probably half my time at the Y when I'm done working out. So, yeah, we're going to get slapped pretty good, not just by city taxes, but by county taxes. And once again, I don't have a water softener, so I'm going to get penalized because I don't have a water softener. That's all I got to say. Thank you, Mike. >> Thanks, Further discussion anyone? >> I think I'm hearing that you got the consensus to go ahead as >> just to know a note u the rate the sewer rate or water and sewer rates would be on the P schedule that'll come out um is it November and there's two readings on it. It's an ordinance. So, there's two readings on it and then the 30-day publishing and then it would go into effect. Um there again, you know, we we'll try and get the information out to people, you know, we and >> so this if we got this in the September newsletter and we we're bringing people to the city council meeting for this, are we not ready for the sewer and water you're saying? I don't follow you. No, I mean this is what we're proposing to put on the fee schedule and so we can start telling people this is you guys have >> said yes, go move forward with this >> and we're going to do that. Another thing that we do need to do is we need to let Oakrove know because Oak Grove purchases water from us for that development and so we need to let them know that this is these are our new rates so that they can do their process of charging you know upping their rates also. >> Okay. >> Can I ask a question? >> Go right ahead. >> Can we also then encourage and graciously ask the departments involved to prepare a presentation? doesn't have to be elaborate, but basically what you shared with us as far as the media portion of it and so things like that if you have to share a transcript of it with the Oak Grove people were actually if you got to go to Oak Grove Paul and tell them you know I'm not trying to throw into the den lion's den but I mean if we're and we didn't really have a consensus just because I brought it up doesn't mean we got to do it but if we're going to have an agenda item open where we can do a presentation again education is the key um and why the what why we're doing this stuff and you know we have no recourse in some of this some of these areas so that's all I got >> I agree I mean telling most of the department heads right here you want me to go along and meet with you or want to go along to Oak have a discussion with them happy I'm happy to do it well no problems with that so that that helps that's all I think we got anybody opposed to the sewing water as proposed. You got your got your go on that. >> Okay, that's that's how we'll move forward. I've gotten my direction that I needed tonight. Thank you. >> Thank you. Do I adjourn now, Kate? Then we do the safety stuff or how does this work? >> Yes, mayor and council. What we'll do is we'll adjourn and then we'll have the public leave and then we'll run through some emergency management with Todd. >> Okay. So, I don't need a motion here. We're going to close the board session on Monday, July 28th at 7:34 p.m. >> Not this one.