now was many years ago call to order the work session on Monday March 24th at 5:30 p.m. please rise for the pledge pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all we'll call please Jenny mayor vocal here council members newow here FIS here IG here Robinson here on to the agenda items uh mayor Cil as you know the police department is in the research and planning phase of implementing a can9 program uh staff believes that adding a Canan program can enhance law enforcement services to the city of St Francis including in many ways including drug addiction efforts on traffic stops criminal suspect tracking building searches search and rescue enhancing the safety of officers and Community outro Outreach programs such as the Citizens Academy where we could do demonstrations uh the needs for a can9 assist over the last several years uh have ranged from drug detection sniffs on vehicles uh tracking suspects had fled from traffic stops suspects involved in domestic assault situations who fled from residences and searching and clearing during burglar alarms um and open door calls on businesses and homes Kines have also assisted in searching for missing persons on several occasions and individuals in Mental Health crisis uh who have fled to wooded areas and Parks listed in the report are uh the agencies that have assisted us over the last couple of years with their canines uh and there were also several times where we requested a can9 uh where we couldn't get one because either they weren't available um or they were just too far away outside of our area that they wouldn't uh send their dog and also list in the report are some specific examples when canines have been used in St Francis the can9 officer is just another tool it helps officers do their job safely and assist in providing the utmost protection and service to the citizens of this community adding a canine program to the police department would also help with officer retention uh the can9 position would allow another advancement opportunity within the department which is such a vital part of Officer retention in today's law enforcement environment uh today we're just looking to engage in some conversation um answer a few questions if we can and hopefully get some general direction to proceed forward and begin the rest of this process included in uh in the packets are tenative timelines uh for implementation um as well as some cost breakdowns and you'll see uh a lot of the initial costs of this program startup costs which can often be the most expensive um are covered by various funding sources including sponsor donations we've actually had uh a couple of entities and individuals come forward they've caught wind to this program and they want to already donate money and and see this program exist um one of them actually wants to cover the cost of the dog and then the other wants to cover um the cost of uh vaccinations and things like that on an annual basis some other funding would be the public safety funding that we received late 2023 uh a small portion of it would come out of our operating budget and that is more of our annual continuation cost to keep the program going which would include training um vehicle maintenance fuel things like that that the Handler would be driving uh the vehicle to and from home from the department and then there is also a 7,500 Grant um from the American Keno Club we've also included uh some information here about the training company we would like to recommend for both the purchase of the dog as well as the training of the dog and the Handler Mark McDon is the owner of McDon K9 he's a former Rapids police officer um for many many years up until 2015 you can see some of his credentials uh in there and from what we found and from the Departments and individuals we've spoken to he is by far the best canine trainer around and has trained the most canines and handlers in this area uh and really Statewide and uh just to throw a huge curveball into this uh Mr mcdna did bring up the possibility and some incentives to actually add a second dog to our program um some of this the main advantage of adding a second dog would be to obviously not limit it to one Handler when that that Handler is working you know seven days in a twoe period so you basically have a dog on seven days out two weeks adding additional Handler putting on opposite rotation of that other Handler now you have a dog on pretty much every day of the week um up to 12 hours a day so there's some obvious benefits there Mr mcana did like I said incentivize this idea and he is willing to actually cover the cost of that second yeah to to get us going with that he was just and Sergeant Larson can um probably agree with me he's he said he was very impressed I guess guess with the process off fars come in such a short amount of time the work that sergeant lson put into it the information that he's gathered um and just the fact that we've already had some some local organizations come forward and want to donate to this program uh he was pretty impressed by that and he wants to and maybe there's more behind the story I don't know but he does want to see us um explore the possibility of a second dog so um that's kind of the gist of it and like I said there's there's a timeline if you guys want to go through that there's some some canine the cost breakdowns if you want me to explain anything in there um I can try to answer any questions uh give you information more if you need some more whatever you wantan to I'm assum we all got questions I don't know want just start down the road Kevin you know yeah thank you very much um I did some dive in this afternoon what I hand out to the rest of the council member is something just fro and cons think about I'm not saying I'm for or against at the moment but I just wanted it was a generality there was this pertains to a Metro Transit type application in a bigger city but again there were reasonable questions or Universal type questions to put out there um Mike concern see I did call the Le of mina city today and asked about litigation concerning bite instance instances that popped up here and there as I was doing some homework and they had no statistics per se as far as insurance or additional insurance for such a situation there there is there is no difference um in our policy coverage or cost to do that that so that was interesting she did was intrigued the fact that um just to look for a statistic of bite instances if they've had uh any claims per se so she said she would get back to me on that um I'm curious if this dog would be uh reasonable forc bark and hold type situation or an apprehension situation they offer two different types of dogs so to speak and the conversation we've had with McDonna um we would try to train that dog or dogs for both for both for both okay and then as far as the explosives and or narcotics would that be a the narcotics yes the explosives probably not okay all right uh let's see you mentioned here a total of 15 instances total when you've used a neighboring Department dogs were any of those overlaps where they had more than one dog there from two different agencies 15 instances in two years there's been a couple I I think even on our last one I think Blaine and isan County had their canines here for a guy shooting at another person and then I just had I just requested one two weeks ago on Sunday for a male who was barricaded in a residence and there was no canines available in in NOA County every agency in inoka County did not have a canine available luckily I Sandy County Deputy Miller came down with his partner and was able to assist us with his dog and of the 15 instances of you can recall did you have success on those I I noticed you noticed a couple of them that there were some getaways there but that's going to happen but yeah I think the one that I guess the first one that comes to my mind um well obviously the one that Sergeant Larson was just speaking about the shooting suspect from a different jurisdiction that ended up in ours we FL from a vehicle the canine ultimately found him um and then there was the other one that come to my mind was the missing person I think it's mentioned in here kind of disappeared into the woods with the assistance of our drone and and a he was Lo kid as well so there are some success stories there all right um and then I indulge me you said the McDonald would offer a second dog that's what he's saying right now and like a two for two for one so during our conversation that I had with McDon I advised him on some of the sponsorships the donations that I was receiving um and advised him on that situation and he was really impressed and then the a AKC grant that I applied for and was granted at $7,500 the total cost is $188,500 for the dog and the training first year these are Dual Purpose dogs and that's per he said the one sponsor was generous enough through a verbal agreement that he was willing to pay for the one can9 and he's like well since you already you've got approved for that Grant you have the 7500 I'll cover the other 11,000 for the other dog wow yeah interesting and MCD again you've done your homework there is he's not the only game in town or not town is not the right word but in a larger radius is it is he really highly that accredited where this would be the onetop shop he seems to be I mean we've actually spoken to one large agency who actually TR ride I don't remember the exact reasons uh a different organization to train their dogs and they went back to McDon McDonald's so he just signed a two-time uh head canine trainer uh National Champion Brady Brady Harrison from St Paul PD as one of his trainers so wow he's yes all right I'm really impressed with the the the beginning of your um proposal is how much outpouring from local businesses wanted to help and that was kind of Dev Tails my question public perception that's the the commercial public how about the general public when did some of your homework and you talked to youran cohorts and other departments what what's the general perception when a dog's involved or they know a dog's there I mean everybody loves a dog for crying out loud and like you say it's good PR it works good for like National Night Out again you always see the signs on some of these dog don't pet me but I mean you know they're they're working tool for the Department which I can appreciate wholeheartedly but any general public perception as in what Pro or con or I haven't heard anything specific I think uh I think most jurisdictions in in cities and counties when they have a dog show up and and they're on the right side of things um they tend to appreciate that tool especially if they're involved um obviously if you're on the wrong end side of the but um I I think I think the perception from the public is is over positive and supportive of k9's um but I you know we haven't really gauged that yet because we don't have one in our community I think the biggest Kickback we'll get is from the select few that will talk about the cost that was my last question then the overall this is one year out a snapshot out the spring of 26 how about five years out as far as budgeting and and what not again as you and I spoke just before uh my work session tonight it's a big commitment as I was doing some more reading there's as much pressure on the Handler and not so much the dog is kind of goes with the flow but I mean it's a commitment you're adopting a a foster person for foster dog for yeah I mean your partners in in fighting crime so yeah and I think that that's going to be in our our selection process to make sure that using the right handlers that know what kind of commitment they're getting into um as far as the ongoing costs and by the way I do I do think we have um a couple of officers in our department that have voiced interests and if any one of them were involved in this program um I would be uh you know I think that would be they would be the ones we would want there so I don't have a lot of concerns there uh as far as the ongoing costs and things like that the main thing like I've noted in here is just going to be the the maintenance of the the squad that that they drive or he or she drives um there's some additional maintenance cost that we estimated you know additional tires per year additional fuel oil changes things like that um training cost annual training cost which we estimated on the highend the initial training cost is going to be the the biggest expenditure per training and there's some ongoing training throughout the year that they'll have to that they'll have to complete um and then obviously the the shift differential that we're proposing that would have to be agreed upon by the union and things like that but um all that added up right now we're estimating like I said on the high end about $11,000 per year um from an operating budget standpoint to cover that the that's after the initial startup cost and that's after the the squad conversion and everything else to a k9 vehicle and all that stuff will be covered by one of the four besides the operating budget one of the funding sources that are noted in there okay I remember I was talking about the Drone I think a year and a half ago and we were had the cost lay down I kind of gave you a wink and an a when when you going to ask for a dog and now here we are so but I in the back of my mind I think a town of 85 to 8,700 people and we have an awesome force and we have all the ships are filled we have a drone do we need a dog that's my G general question to me is it is now the right time there's a year out to take care of business here to get it done and to get indoctrinated and SE so um I guess the bottom line is I wouldn't be opposed to it you guys are more than taking care of your own business and then as far as being proved and what you spend and what you do and how you do it um so that's all I have thank you um I guess my I mean we we never know how long a dog's going to last if they get shot or injured um so what is the what is the process if our dog gets injured and is no longer what is the process for replacing them how does that work yeah so we would um and we talked about that we actually talked about and talked to other agencies to see if there's such thing as placing insurance on the dog or something like that so that is one of the things we're looking into not real common from what we found but it's one of the things we're looking to um other than that it it it's probably something we're gonna have to tie try to tie into our capital budget for a few years out and just be prepared for that unknown uh and you know and again I'm not overly concerned with that um you know if we don't have insurance or we didn't have the exact funding at the time to replace that dog not that that I'm relying on the public for that but I have no doubt that people would come forward and help the city out I've seen it done in other cities don't want that day to ever come but I I think the best thing to do would to to be to prepare for that whether it's through a capital budget um or something like that that would be the same with like the emergency because obviously if they have to go to vet I mean they're covering the general maintenance but if there was an incident where the dog was injured and we had to take it to the vet then you would also add that into the C that was my main question Kevin Kevin took the rest of mine so let K go first and take thought a good question I'm sorry him go do my homework I'm kidding no that's cool job good first or last I'm still can I ask got anything else no that that was my main question um kind of to piggy back on what Sarah said like what is the work lifespan of a k9 like I mean maybe I don't and not their life like what is their expected useful life the equipment yeah um did you get that information from mcdna uh it varies on the dog in the hammer also how much they work and um but it's around six years okay and then if if if something was to happen to the Handler um and they weren't available would the dog respond to other officers and will the other officers have some limited training with the dog I don't I'm I'm not familiar with how that works probably not um you know even to train because when these officers go through the training they train with the dogs so they're almost getting trained at the same time okay um like one unit right yep and typically the dogs would not respond to anybody else besid so uh in that type of situation we would have to evaluate it see what you know why is this officer out what's going on um you know obviously if that officer leaves to go to another agency that dog stays with the city uh we would have to make a decision that at that point to see what do um do we want to try to train somebody else you know sure mcdna could give us some good advice on that I'm sure he's seen all of that before so I think we would lean on him if something like that arose so but it's hard to say without knowing the exact situation okay sure well that was my next question what if what if the officer leaves to go to another agency so um and then I'm just curious I what other cities around us have K9 units and which ones don't you probably don't know but it's okay so obviously all the counties surrounding us do all the sheriff's office is do Sherburn isan Anoka and Ben Ramsey alen um Blaine PD I'll just list him in in an NOA County if I I can maybe well even Princeton up I know Princeton PD does up Max County I think um Blaine PD has one Fridley actually these agencies have a couple because they're pretty large Rapids Ramsey does not I don't believe uh liony lakes does maybe seems like the W the East Side struggling over there a little say they do I think I seen a vehicle on I was working over there but I'm not 100% on that Columbia Heights does so some of the larger more urban agencies South of us obviously do um Elk River does Forest Lake does so like even a lot of the the mediumsized city departments have them but obviously the count has do okay and then just two more things the um I have kids at the high school and they do Locker checks sometimes would would the K9 be able to help in help the schools in that too or well got to have a resource officer for I don't get um so that is something that would that changed a few years ago even when we had a resource officer the random checks used to be allowed that's it's really not anymore that would really have to be initiated by the schools um to do that and if you know it's basically assisting the schools with that and I'm not say what happen weekly or monthly um but if they had a situation you know and they wanted a dog to walk through the school and and it on certain areas um we we would definitely run it through our City Attorney at that point it used to be a lot different where you know they used to just we used to request a dog and the dog used to walk by and sniff lockers and um it's just not that way anymore for Fourth Amendment reasons so um that has changed a little bit but yes there are places that still do that and that still serves a purpose in the schools but um there's got to be a I would say a policy and a process behind that and not just random okay and then I'm sure this is way down the road but you know we've had a lot of fun with um when we get a new snowplow the community's gotten to help name the snow plow would we be able to help name the dog possibly it kind of depends on um the funding sources again so I think anybody like especially if if somebody wants to cover the cost of a dog we're certainly going to give them trying to give them some recognition and maybe even um see if they want to name the dog or something like that but um who knows yeah anything's possible um but I think is if we get donors and sponsors um we're gonna give them that kind of stuff I just thought that would be fun that was main only question thanks all right some of this is already answered um you mentioned close to 11,000 for annual cost and is this do we have any annual sponsorships like continuing other than like I've seen the dog food was in there as a possibility not a guarantee but and the other that one that so far um that has voiced any type of sponsorship for an annual type pass would be the the St Francis Vet Clinic has offered to offer the or to pay for the annual vaccinations which definitely helps so it be roughly 11 grand out of the budget yeah again that's estimating on the highend even on the high end of training um appreciate McDon for offering the second dog um I don't I don't uh I don't want to insinuate any non priy but he's helping himself too if he use him for training but um there guarantees on dogs like so go ahead the K9s they get shipped from overseas Republic Europe area Germany interesting and they have a one year working guarantee like can know if the dog's goingon to work out type of thing that's awesome okay um let's see here that was answered um so these are like you say they're tied to the Handler so this Handler can't have a family so to speak or they're good with families or better because like I said they no pet me signs and whatnot how does that work it's some dogs will so we're e either looking at a German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois um I I believe the German Shepherds are just a little maler um and again it's going to depend on I guess long story short yes they can have families dogs many of our canine handlers in an OP kids and things like that so I think it's it's really how they're trained going through McDon K9 um and they'll go through all that and especially touch on their home life um and dos and don'ts around kids and things like that and and kenneling and all that kind of stuff so um that's that that will be covered in training but yes they certainly can have families and kids and everything else so okay and then uh Amy asked this and I was typing and I wasn't paying enough attention but the hand or the uh if the Handler has to quit or whatever that dog what happens with that dog then stays with the city it does how does that work then if it's like kind of trained to one person you just got to get retrained type of thing we would we would that's something we would need to definitely go through mdal but I know depends on the agency depends on policies but a lot of Kines do stay with the city or you you know you put a a a length of time maybe close to that useful Li to the dog that the officer has to stay in that position but again you really can't make them sign a contract and make stay so on the union involved and everything else too we certainly don't want to train a dog and a Handler and have them even a year you want to try to reuse that dog some way somehow okay I think it's interesting um what I guess my the only last question I have is what's next because I know based on what I read you're kind of looking to just kind of further the research so to speak or what are you what are you really looking for from us tonight I guess um just some general direction I guess General support um you know if I came in here and everybody slamming their fist and saying absolutely not I probably know it's probably not a good program not a good time to move forward with this but um if I know I have General support then I'm not going to be too shy about um going through the rest of the process which is the time on it in the timeline it's you know basically accepting the donations we got um beginning with talks with the Union April and May uh both maybe coming up with an mou May June for your approval and again I don't want to bring an mou before Council for a program that I don't that you don't support so um June some policy development and we would start the Handler selection after that probably have that done by Fall um have a pretty good idea have this program in place and then they would uh Handler or handlers would train in the spring 20th yeah I mean I I support the idea of at least one um I don't think the cost is too outrageous annually are you going to seek more donations as well like for sponsorships for the annual cost of it for this unfortunately we can't solicit donations oh really um the word starting to get out a little bit um Michelle Anderson from Remax Commerce too yeah she's huge with the community me an email wanting to help sponsor too okay so I mean the word just starting in the city and right it doesn't take long in a smaller Community to when the police department has a plan get up what's the reason you can't solicit it just curious is it obviously it's legal I and I actually brought the information with me it's it's not a big deal yeah there's C for a government entity like law enforcement we can solicit pretty much just for events that for a public that bring a public benefit like community outreach Outreach things like that we can solicit funds from from businesses and things like that for that but I mean this I think it would be a stretch I think there is a public benefit for this A9 program but I think it's it's a little bit of a stretch so I I don't know that it' be comfortable going out I mean most agencies and counties that do solicit funds they do it as a nonprofit they create a 1c3 organization to do it um they're not doing it as a government entity right yeah I've heard all about those recently Doge yeah so that's all I have thank you a recent LMC train confirmed what you just said about the to um overall I think it's worth pursuing most of my questions were answered I just made certain assumptions like every five years you'd have to do a dog when I was do I was just doing some rough math and it looks like The Upfront everything I went higher than even your higher estimates but UPF front everything's like $47,000 all in is what I saw whatever and then per year if we if we start building in a CIP to replace a dog I was just put in five years that' be about another $3,700 a year you'd have to put it to your CIP get to back to your 18,500 for a dog so per year I was at roughly 177,000 per year but that includes setting money aside for another dog um only other questions I had actually Insurance one that you brought up earlier a little bit so I'd like to see that clarify a little bit both on the bite side and to Sarah's point the dog being injured you know Insurance what that looks like yeah and actually I think Jenny even helped us I don't mean to put you on the spot but we I think we had Jenny I believe we had Jenny contact the league on that and they did say that there was increase in insurance premiums for adding a can9 good so as far as the bite um you that's that's litigation I forecast that but but just if the dog got hurt like oh yeah I mean again yeah we are kind of looking into insurance thing on that but other questions I had while I'm just in general how this works I know I've had talk to Dave about this a little bit too and we're doing Mutual Aid situations and our dog gets hurt going to somebody else's call or I've just more curious about how that works I mean you got a neighboring City that's we're going over there with our dog a lot I I I say when are you going to share in the cost of something like that so I don't know yeah and I think that's always kind of a you know something to think about with mutual Aid uh the insurance and and all that kind of stuff would fall on us mut if we're as long as it falls under our policies and guidelines to go assist that we're going to go um but I think you know that's something that we just need to Monitor and if we're constantly going somewhere we've changed policies internally we where we found ourselves assisting extensively in certain areas at certain locations not within our city but close to our borders because we're so very close to some of these places um we've changed our procedure and policies on some of that just just just because we are increasing the risk for our officers constantly going to these places and it's kind of being expected um so we have dial that back in other areas and I think the same could be done for something like this if constantly going to the same location over and over with with a dog a drone or whatever the case may be and it's increasing hazards or liability for our officers we're going to we're going to look at policies and so I think it's pretty similar to any other tool any other Mutual Way we provide how many dogs you know off to top your head how many dogs does a Lo County have they have two Sheriff's Office yep yep sorry three three they in the process yeah I think that's it's really all I've got like yeah certainly go ahead you know how our citizens love a surprise um how would you roll out or PR wise roll this carpet out slowly so people going oh gapo we got dogs we got police we got you know you know how it goes things get blown out how would you it would be toward the end before we we I want to make sure that everything else is covered um you know at the same time I would recognize sponsors and all that kind of stuff but I would roll it out toward the end as we get close to actually put these dogs on the street and then we would you know whether it's a social media thing or whatever we want to make the community know what we're doing um just make it a huge positive rather than make it a huge postive garage yeah and I can't you know we're not going to have petting stations and things like that National Night Out um but they will be there they will be visible um we'll just have restrictions on they're doing but um yeah we'll definitely roll it out we'll make it known um make it a positive for the community and and hopefully a deterrent for the other half and uh you know keep them out of here so that's kind to go B all thank you mayor any any other questions which one you think is going to be the dunk tank this year somebody there stay top sorry sorry thank you I appreciate it thank you uh on to fire inspector pending resignation durations mayor council the fire department seeking some direction on two different topics related to this notifi that Captain St and his family will be relocating to the brard L the summer um I just found out last week that they had an offer accepted on a house up there so that process is moving along they're waiting for their daughter to graduate high school which happens this year and then their house will be placed on the market so obviously this creates a challenge for for us uh Captain cersil has been instrumental in our public education and fire inspection program um he's been served in that role since 2018 and really has excuse me helped us resurrect that role significantly he also works 16 hours a week typically scheduled so he comes in Tuesdays and Wednesdays works on inspections reinspection and um planning and coordinating all of our public education events uh over the last two years I have on the second page you can see he's worked um 88 88 6 hours in 2023 and 966 hours in 2024 so we're at essentially at a halftime position with his current workload um so what we're really looking for today is he has offered to stay on the department till October which will get us through kind of our heavy public education pieces with the Bike Rodeo night to night our French toast breakfast and our summer events um and he'll continue to work those inspection days so he'll come down he'll work Tuesday stay overnight at the fire station work Wednesday and then head back up to Brainard the challenge that we have is that's in conflict with our current policies that all firefighters have to reside within 10 minutes of the fire station or all part-time firefighters have to reside within 10 minutes of the fire station so one we're looking for direction on whether Council council is generally agreeable to allow Captain cersil to continue to work to get us through kind of the heavy summer summer months or workload the second piece of that is looking into the future we don't have a whole lot of staff that have the same type of availability that Captain steril has Captain steril self-employed so he can pick jobs as he chooses and works around his fire department schedule to fill in the blanks generally speaking all of our other fire department staff have 40 Hour Week jobs typically during daytime hours so that certainly creates a challenge for us to backfill that position internally we do have a couple candidates that have more flexibility during the week just not quite to the same extent as Captain sterzel don't know if they're interested and both of them would require some additional training to be able to fulfill that role as a fire inspector as well so that creates a challenge for us moving forward um the second piece is as part of our cons consultant study with bethl one of the recommendations that they are providing is that um that fire inspector position moves towards a full-time position so with this opportunity of Evan leaving we're kind of in transition getting some recommendations from our consultant that that's the direction that the department should go um I'm really looking for direction and and what the council's feeling is on how we fulfill this position moving forward we can also look at a part-time contracted position um right now on the league of Minnesota cities there's six full-time fire inspector positions open across the state so there's a lot of opportunities out there right now as well which doesn't make our job easier in trying to fill this position but I really laid out three options for you guys to discuss and provide Direction back towards the fire department on how you want us to move forward keep the position as it currently is and try and find the best suited internal candidate if there's somebody interested fill that position look at potentially getting a contracted position part-time basis or look at transitioning this position to full-time in 2026 um we've identified the public safety funds as um having some ability there to cover the cost um for probably close to two years with this position and in our financial plan we do have this position budgeted in 2028 to go full-time so that would buy us the 2-e before we would see any additional impact on the tax were to go that direction so again just looking to see where the council sitting on allowing Captain Cel to continue till October um in more of a non-traditional role with the fire department and then your desire on how we fill this position moving forward um so how many inspections like per I don't even want to say per like per month do we does he typically do on average per month know it waxes and wains a little bit because some businesses require an annual inspection some are two-year cycle some are threeyear cycle okay on average it's 10 to 12 inspections per month based on his availability now okay and then it seems like from our reports that there's also pretty consistently a reinspection with a a couple and not just want any certain businesses at a time but it just seems like anytime in I report that there's an inspection there's also a couple reinspection I would say generally we have about a 50% reinspection rate and those could be something as simple as a fire extinguisher wasn't appropri appropriately tagged as being serviced right he can't complete the inspection because there's a component missing um sometimes they are large ear issues that require multiple reinspection because it may be more of a costly um correction for the business owner to fix so again we try to educate over enforcement and if we find a violation that's going to cost a couple thousand dollars for the business owner become a compliance we don't want that done and have it be a punishment that they're completing it in 30 days so we tend to do a follow structured followup over a period of time so they can complete it at a reasonable Pace okay um and then um so so our our overall plan is to actually transition to a fulltime that was discussed as part of our financial plan when we went through all of the Staffing um and again confirmed through um our Consulting process and um so is by Evan staying on in in he's is he he would just be staying on as the fire inspector and as he would still cover calls while he was here so he would still come continue to do all the training that he would need to do he's not going to he would still continue to be a responder and and that's why it works out well for him if he were to do it Tuesday into Wednesday because Wednesday's our drill day okay so he'd be here every morning on Wednesdays to make sure that he's still accounting for his training hours required training hours if he's here for that period of time I would suspect that he's probably also going to be making his percentages as well okay so but again it it's it's outside of our current policy he's willing to do this to help us kind of figure buy us some time to figure out what this looks like and do ensure that our public events for this upcoming year are done with the level of fidelity that the community has expected and he could also I would hope that in that time if we can find somebody he could also kind of help train that that would into that that would be the whole that um I guess um I guess I don't necessarily see it being a problem as long as he can I mean we want to make sure he's keeping his his training and his percentages up um but I guess if I mean if we don't have anybody who is willing to step into that position currently and I would assume that anybody who could it's still going to take them a little while to adjust their normal work their regular work schedule to be able to accommodate this so I'd be willing to look at it in just for that inter term so that we can get through this he has all that experience already and knows who to contact about the bike rodeos in the National don't all that stuff so I think as a transition that it's something that we we do need to look at thank you I'm G jump in just because I got more questions and I I apologize because I due to computer issues I really get a good look at this till earlier today so some of these I would have thrown at you I'm just curious how many how many people are qualified to do inspections right now in the fire department so we have seven people that have their fire inspector one certification through the state we have one additional that has their fire inspector 2 through the state all of which work a normal daytime Monday through Friday work schedule primarily all of our business inspections are done during the business day so that creates a bit of a challenge um I think we may have another one that would be potentially interested in taking on the role but would need to go to some additional training before they could become qualified if you will for the um that's really our challenge is it's not whether or not we have people that would be necessarily interested the nature and the scope of this job in particular really does require that daytime availability during the business week to be able to interface with those inspections to interface with with our thirdparty vendors so that's really where comes into play most of our planning meetings for our puet events are during the day as well so um just having that continuity of business as it occurs today is really our big challenge with this role in particular and we have again no it's okay currently right now we have two full-time with this or what what no we have two full-time right now we have two full-time employees within the fire department and Evan is a part-time employee he just has scheduled hours that other firefighters don't have and Tim's like a hybrid position I don't know how much he does administratively now since the move but exp so he does he helps with administrative stuff as well or he kind of was in the beginning I don't know where we're at with that but Kate would have to tell us I guess what he does there well I'd like the know answer that I it was like a hybrid position where he was going to help out with calls while he was here but he's also going to help the administration which is how we Justified the fulltime when we approved it yeah we in Council we really haven't utilized him since the elections he helped us get through the elections but is is filling full-time fight s but if they need him they could probably pull him as long as he wasn't on a call obviously too and it's that role is still identified as dual purpose or it has not been reidentified yet as mayor council we haven't brought that back to council to update the job description so that's kind of a housekeeping piece if we were to tr to get him transitioned to full-time fire we would need to update his job description and take the administrative duties off of it I think it' be nice to clean that up I don't I don't know I mean if that's how it's being utilized I don't know if you see the necessity to pull them back in administrative side at some point but yeah I get on the day um right M Mary C I think let me ask you this is there a conflict I guess then if because his job description right now is Bulls which he obviously does more fire right now but if you needed him for something there's not any kind of thing that says he can't do what you're asking him to do necessarily because it's filled but if you got the administration off of it which that creates other issues I guess too how we created the position to begin with which is confusing so may Council correct so right like any staff I think if we needed the help to pull them for something we would and and I don't see anybody on our team saying no I mean if we had something that really came up um but we yeah we haven't used him in admin since the election so if you to housekeeping on that job description is me yeah I mean I I think so too because I mean in order to get a true picture on what our fire department's costing if we're splitting the C it doesn't unless the entire unless his entire salary so to speak is being covered by fire right now I don't think we get a good enough read on what fire is at if it's being shared with the administrative and fire so I would sure well I'm Council I don't want to speak necessarily for Darcy but at the same time it's all coming out of the same right funds so but individual Department budgets it would be reflected on what that department itself your discussion I don't let this really to this per se but I mean it kind of is a part of this I think so we can clean that up and then my my thought right now on the proposal I I just think there's a lot of right now especially with the be thing there is so I I I'd been incling to just staying internal and trying to that's just my thoughts right now I I mean there's I still have I think more questions that I chew on this some more but and that cleaning that position up I don't know if that changes things at all well putting him in the training position or the inspection as well if he's it's going to sound terrible and I don't mean to sound this way because I know everybody here works hard so I apologize if this comes off as sounding bad um not my intention but you had somebody that was doing two jobs at once or a hybrid position half that job is freed up now so to speak is he able to fill that position then is the question I have other questions too but that's kind of where I think you were going with it is I mean it's it's part of it has kind of has to be part of not that he's got all his free time I know you guys are busy and do stuff so like I said I didn't mean to sound bad but no I I I think everybody's tracking with the thought process I can assure you um he's not waiting for admin to call him down and not doing anything in the meantime he really has taken over all of our technology initiatives this year which he's done a tremendous job with and which has been much needed on top of we're still operating without the assistant chief position so a lot of those responsibilities have kind of folded organically into both of our roles a little bit so I had to take on a little bit more of that and he took the pieces that were appropriate for the level that he's at so um but again to to the administrator's Point nobody here is off limits if somebody needs help jump in and help so what's the sorry well actually I I think you should just continue on with your question one sorry so so what's what's the probability of him being available to do the inspections well I think in the meantime regardless there's going to be some time where we're going to have to carve out of our schedule we're certainly not going to be able to keep up at the pace that Captain sterle has been performing at which is a bit of my concern um we we have a very good record of of having significantly less dollar loss in our community compared to other communities especially around us um which again is testimony to the work that that we've all done but in particular Captain steril so we won't be able to replicate the repetition that we're operating at now um and it's even likely more so over on the public Ed public education events which require a tremendous amount of planning um so we're obviously all going to dig in and fill in the gaps where we can I just don't have anybody that has the bandwidth right now right that has been doing it at the pace that Captain steril has been what about El ing to Metro West to fill those positions what's the cost of that or do we have an idea I don't know what they would cost I know on the permit side when they're doing a permit um related inspection they get paid through the permit fees if I'm correct okay so I know they do our commercial still or a lot of our not on the fire inspection side they do it on the plan review side okay we're still doing we're doing the public commercial fire inspections well that's a good question I am curious what that would um yeah that's I mean I guess as a exploratory thing I would look into that um what else did I have far as questions that's all that I had um the only thing I would say I mean I appreciate you bringing it to us especially given it's not in our policy would he be able to keep up his percentages to the level of every other expected firefighter with those couple days that he's doing now we did some modeling and it appears that he'll be just fine on his percentages he was coming out at about 24% just taking those two days into account but obviously during those two days he's only doing fire department stuff right so um most of our models showed him well above the 20% threshold I just have a hard time going away from policy because we have a policy for a reason and unfortunately I had to let somebody go recently and that's why I'm bringing it to Council for guidance so I have I kind of have a hard time with that given it's a policy but um I I personally would just like to see what Metro West would cost if they're if that's an option I don't know if that's an option what's Tim's viability I guess I don't know I'd like to learn more about it personally but I how how soon do you need to I mean when is it again when's he ideally I'd like to have an answer for Evan by June 1st um so he knows kind of what the expectation is once they formally move um again it's all subject to when his gets listed when it gets sold um we just wanted to be forthright about where we're at and if there was any latitude where we could make this work if it was the middle of winter and things were kind of settling down for the season I think we probably have a very different discussion um but we really are in and continuing into our busy season so this again just buys us time right well I appreciate that he understands what's going on is like ready to go to help us so I appreciate him willing to do especially you said brainer Lakes yeah they just had an offer accepted in backers so that's a long drive so right that's kind of where I'm sitting okay Amy um well I just had a few questions the um you said he does 10 to 12 inspections per month correct so how many businesses do we have in St Francis that need to be inspected I believe if you count daycares I think our occupancy count is at 8 6 87 and some of those are an annual all of the gas stations have to be inspected every year right so those would be an annual so those multiply on the off years so if he's doing gas stations every year but now um McDonald's is due right so it really does vary month-to month and year to year based on where they're at as far as their prescribed fire inspections and as so that is I don't want to say real businesses but that's like businesses that people can walk into um that doesn't for the most part does that count home businesses at all it does so the county does require licensed daycares to have inspections so those and then are there some categories of businesses that get inspected by the state fire commercial instead of us yes so that would be your schools and Health Care Facilities okay um and then um okay and why why are those done by the state instead of us that's called out by State Statute oh okay yeah okay and then um legislature brilliant so you mentioned the um bethl um yep the study the study thank you have um have we looked at have you looked at I'm sure you probably have the East bethl study that was done last October it it was it was published last October but it had been going on for months before that y um have we looked at that as far as um that study saids that fire departments of East bu size should consider going back to fewer medical calls um back to major just major Medicals um and I not sure if you um have considered that but much of what I hear you say is that we don't have enough people to to do all the work like we need another full-time person to do fire inspections now so have we really looked at making sure that we maybe there's a way that we could limit the amount of work that we do by going back to just major Medicals instead all Medicals I guess two things one I'm not up here advocating for another full-time position I'm simply providing that as an option for the situation that we're in I I think the other Germaine piece to this is this discussion is not part and parcel related to our run volume we're talking about this position because of the technical aspect to it which is very different than having a firefighter EMT run out to any type of call um in my experience and and the mayor and I have had several conversations about this in the past we have a lot of challenges that we're dealing with most of which are outside of our control the extended response times from our from our transporting agencies the lack of consistency in the information that's not only being received by the dispatch but also what is getting dispatched out to our responders I would certainly hate for us that has the capacity and the capability and the bandwidth on a response side to treat every call as if it's that person's worst a and provide the highest level of not only medically trained but Compassionate Care that we can offer this Community because I think that really is the expectation that everybody has in relationship to this position this is simply this is a technical position that's not in everybody's wheelhouse and quite frankly in less and less in people's wheelhouse um with Captain cersil leaving we really want to just figure out how we make the best out of this opportunity with council's Direction so I'm not advocating for a full-time position nor am I advocating for a part-time position I just want to be able to make the best decision that we can based on the input that you guys are giving us it's that simple so um well I think I mean as it's nice that Captain cerso is willing to stay on for a few months but it's probably no secret that I feel that if you're going to make an exception for one person not following policy by living in the city that you'd have to make similar exceptions for other people and I I just think that would be wrong um to make an exception here and you know you said that capson cersil is is going to leave soon I personally knew about six months ago that he his wife had accepted another job and so maybe some of the training could have been taking place earlier um that would be my my thought I I probably would be against him staying on in that capacity past then I mean it's only it's it's March there's there's there's time between now and and then to train someone else or you could fill in for that those RS or Tim could as well and we talked about how Tim if Tim is doing administrative things you you weren't here but I just re I watched the or I was either at the meetings or I watched them and when correct me if I'm wrong when um assistant chief Lawrence left it was brought to the council to make a full-time assistant chief position because Joe Lawrence was not and I believe it was not voted for um at that time and then about two months later it came to the council for a hybrid position and it was voted for at that time and so um that that's what I remember about it and so I was as a private citizen I was thinking he would still be doing some administrative work um to fill that role um but my other question is um Captain cersil has been working 16 hours a week at the station a couple of times I drive by a lot and I see his truck there a lot um how does the officer stiens work in there because the officers receive a stipend right of x amount of dollars and so when they get their paycheck they get it's probably monthly they get a portion of their stipend or quarterly or whatever but their hours that are put on there they're paid for training correct calls they have gone to correct and additional hours as needed or is the stipend supposed to cover those additional items that they were their assigned task their stien generally covers their duty officer rotation requirements so and not that we're restricting their movement while they're duty officer but the expectation is is that they remain with a higher level availability because they are the primary person after hours to cover those emergency events so the stien is designed to cover those types of activities most everything else much like Captain stur will they get their hourly rate for but because they're doing above and beyond with their Duty offer rotation that's where the stien has traditionally expense okay um I I guess I don't know what sorry to jump Metro West can you explain what Metro West is that Joe asked about would have a I can tackle that one so Metro West is our building inspector so they would not do fire inspections they are building permits um and our state designated building inspector septic so they're not qualified necessarily to do the fire inspection that's different type of inspections inspection I think inspection so yeah no so they they would look at the plans for a building they are not going to walk through a building that's what you meant and look for unsafe hazards So to that point then is it I I have no idea is there is there a company that does do player inspections not that I'm aware of um now certainly I haven't spent a whole lot of time in energy um researching if there's a third party fire inspection company um I know there's other cities that have contracted another City's Fire inspector to fill that role so when I was with Brooklyn Park our fire inspector was contracted by the city of oio to go do fire inspections in AIO for [Music] two um well just I mean that brought up a point I mean other cities of our size are nearby they probably have this same the same issue so one idea is to explore Contracting with a nearby City for that you know just for those just for fire inspections option yeah Kevin uh yeah um public education and fire inspection could the that position be split in two for two different individuals we could there would be a budget implication for obviously one way or the other there's going to be a budget implication right um we certainly could look at exploring separating those two out sure you look at the captain passed the deal that 886 hours came to $157 an hour and the 966 hours came to 6597 yeah so I mean it was the normal fireman rate that we're correct paying so that that's interesting in itself um you uh you and I spoke earlier uh a week or two back this J the captain who's leaving he might go into business for himself in another cap capacity or fire capacity in his new location which which is awesome what if he was to form an LLC or something and actually be a subcontractor and still work for the city of St Francis and forget about the policy problem he come in as a subcontractor and take care of our business that way and I I can't speak for him I think if if that were the case I think part of what it makes it palatable and I'll speak for Captain sterzl the best that I can is if they're still able to respond to calls it makes a difference if you're coming down to sleep in the fire station for a night you know what I mean right you're providing those additional duties as needed where if he was simply coming down as a contract fire inspector I don't know if that two-hour drive one way begins to make a whole lot of sense yeah but for frequeny of his visit maybe over the Dury of a month how many times would they have to come down can you accomplish x amount of stuff in say even an overnight trip you know if he's an independent business person um has that prerogative you know that we have had that prerogative I mean if he was going to go into business pre and then this is all hypothetical course Absol might run into situation too where it's something you got to put out for bid or something too I don't know how they determine what needs to go out for bid or not that's a possibility but I'm just floating it out there just out there too I don't know um and then you kind of answer my question is the assistant chief currently stacked with with the business well I guess that's to be determined where the workload has gone down a little bit so maybe there's a possibility but uh splitting that position in two different two different jobs did the three of the Beth individuals that are coming over on board now they have skill sets that would pertain to any of this one potential one does um but as a career firefighter in a different city has kind of a different schedule he was one of them that that I alluded to earlier that may have some interest um but hasn't indicated as such yet okay well yeah as I went through the packet the full-time uh salaries were a scker shock I'm for expanding business again you know we were talking about our town we we try to betin with the money that we have here and again 8500 people there was some concerns raised and concerns answered as far as when the second assistant chief was filled we did it on a work session we did it in I mean we did it we did it with you know good Justice we follow it through V it out pretty carefully so that's technically not his captain right well that's Sor no you're fine so um I guess I'm with the mayor let's kind of go slowly here and take a look at this this is our first exposure to it yep if the gentleman is willing to help us out which is you know God bless them to October as far as bending any policy rules or whatnot I'd like to see say stay far away from that as well um with the resources that we have in front on your step already I would think there' be some solutions to be able to be found especially if you split into the public education part to me isn't as it's important but not as important as a fire INSP ction part we also have vist Perry coming online which will take someone's time even though it's a state situation we still have a local jurisdiction obligation we have to fulfill so um I'd say we step back and take a breath and the captain wants to help us for well that's awesome um you know whatever it costs it costs but uh take a second look at this at our next work session which I'm sure C that up or see somewhere down the line we can do that that's let make sure just PE here cuz now then is you know now then's now settled down again we brought the assistant on for you because now that was taking up quite a bit of time so that's kind of that's kind of slow not needing in as much as your attention but again we got other stuff internally that's up um that is all I have for now I'm sure we'd have more we bring it up again in another session take to add to your list I'm just C continue discussion later on I am kind of curious to meeting immediate surrounding communities here what are they doing for inspections so East bethl as a full-time fire inspector and and back to council member fess's Point um one of the recommendations that did come out of their study was to add another full-time person as well so um now then has no fire inspections going on now that I've left I don't know that the new fire chief has has picked those up as of yet um I can't speak for Oak ROV um Andover is in the same position where they're looking to potenti bring on another fire inspector down there as well so I think we're all kind of in the same boat one of the PO scenes that I included was from Spring Lake Park um there's just there's such a demand out there right now for this type of role and and not nearly as many um qualified candidates most of them maybe even the majority of them are doing it in house you're telling me correct okay any other questions D I I don't I don't I don't know if we direction or not I I think I guess to clarify for me council's direction is there's more of a comfort level to keep it as an internal part-time position with exploring it potentially splitting the two job responsibilities Between pub Ed and fire inspection and see where we go from there kind of going back to what Joe was talking about too a little bit with Tim's position a little bit see I don't know just I don't know what his capacity is like I say I right he was two now he's one not like I said I assumed he had I didn't assume he was sitting there throwing a ball at the wall waiting for a call but um the capacity of it I guess and Metro West I don't know why I hear inspection I think inspection so I know they do plan review so oh that makes sense got you got any questions for us I do not I think with that's something that and that's the direction that I was looking for right I I didn't want to start work get into the budget season without really understanding where Council sat on this because it's certainly an area of our department that's growing and we want to make sure that we're in front of it rather be than behind it and then we'll wait on any formal direction do we want do we not want Captain sterzel to stay on till October at this point is that what I'm hearing I'd love him to but if he's going to have to move I don't think like it's the policy is the problem right that's that's the legal ramification I think for me that's a stickler I just want to be able to provide direction to him because he's been asking so yeah I I think well myself and Kevin said no policy and yeah I think that's your direction unfortunately but definitely thank him um we appreciate him yeah I just like I said I didn't want to make either one of these decisions in a vacuum so I appreciate the feedback okay on to tax increment financing that's you yes mayor and Council before you tonight is just some greater information on the tip a little bit on the process and on how it works so the NorthShore development project as anticipated has dropped off a tiff application it is sent to Ellers at that time I put in here the uh packet that had been given to the Eda um really just discussing you know what the process is what the expectations some of our um policy requirements and then I attached a few sheets that talk about this project um kind of as an estimate uh if they were to um go forward the amount of taxes the amount of fees that we would collect um not only for a financial impact of onetime fees but then in regards to the ongoing project gains just some general data that's given to cities in regards to the use of Tiff and why and then some slides that are provided by Ellers Ellers is the agency that um does the underwriting for Tiff when it comes to the city so um they have to not only identify that um the funding is needed but Ellers has to do the but for test to ensure that the project would not move forward but for it uh one of the reasons I brought the discussion tonight is um if this project does not get tick they will not build and uh just as we don't want to spend money as an agency we don't want them spending a bunch of money to move forward with something that's not supported by Council so just look any questions I'm here to help answer them if we need Ellers to come in with some real technical questions I'm happy to get you know them in here as well um but just have the general discussion let you know that it is in process and answer any questions Maybe oh yeah um no I don't want to start somebody else has Joel sorry um well also determines the length correct and you mentioned we had one property that was on the Tiff that's now off correct and they didn't go to full ter correct and a lot of them don't go to full turn correct mayor council it's very typical for these projects to refinance much like when we worked with vistor Prairie that 8 to 10 year Point um especially with where interest rates are now I think if there were some Market shifts and interest rates they would definitely be looking because we're a very small portion of the overall debt so it is very typical for them to refinance a few years in I'm not a huge fan of Tiff although I'm not like hardcore 100% against it like the abatement I think we have to look at to um the benefits versus you know the the risk versus benefits so to speak just like uh Vista I think it's something that we've heard people talk about a lot gr that's just an abatement which to me is a lot better than a tiff in my opinion but that's again just my opinion but I'm not hardcore against it um I know these buildings for whatever reason can't build it it bothers the hell out of me that Banks won't give them the funding they need unless we do this where it's like what the hell you in business as a bank for um but that's just kind of what's in my crowd but I don't know I'm I'm not I'm not happy about it but I'm I'm not like I say hardcore against it so I'm kind of a wild card when it comes to if or against and if you need an answer for me tonight I'll end up giving you one Kevin um I know when we over this a couple years ago and again like Vista I had a grasp on it now I really I I kind of have a grasp on it may a $25 million project and we didn't tip them at all and they were coming in tip free we get you got examples of the um sag let's see um water and sewer and whatnot so we're basically we're foregoing we're going to take a percentage of what we would normally get on an annual basis of the property taxes that they would be paying to the city they're still going to pay the sack and white the front that's a separate situation from the tip portion of it correct so mayor and Council they would come in and would pay so upfront costs um they would pay the whack and Sack and the development fees and it would create a base tax so right now it's tax exempt we're not making a dime off that property because we own it because we own it um when they come in to do Tiff what happens is they would create a base the city would get the base tax and then the city in our policy also gets 10% so essentially they are going to get 90% of the new tax base and we will get taxes um because a a base has to be created because there isn't one now so we'll get a base plus 10% on page 23 at the top it says based on a household of two typical monthly charges this isn't real numbers pertaining to this project or it is so mayor council it it's a little bit of both um when we're looking at like the number of units I used 120 because that's the anticipated number of household units but if they put in a swimming pool if they put in a car wash if they put in um they're talking about a community room with some space all of that will continue to add so I would say 120 minimum but if you put in a swimming pool there's four more you put in a car wash there's two to three more so it just grows um but that would that would be if they only had 120 units that would be our whack and Sack gained um the park dedication is actual that is not going to change and then the building Revenue costs those are the actuals if it was a $25 million project so that nine 940,000 is pretty accurate the only thing that could change is the wack and Sack units could actually go up and then the 10% fee of to the city again we're we're getting our Basics covered but we get our payoff at the end of their of their term if say it's a and would some would a tiff be how many um years did you have on this it was it varies y so years 26 years as opposed to the eight or 10 that we agreed on with this no so mayor and councel the 26 years is a maximum for a housing Tiff District so I just use that because they if Ellers deems that they need 26 years they iig for up to 26 years Ellers could come back and say you need 12 so that's um that's completely estimated but what happens is say they're they're built the $25 million project and I I think I used what did I use for a tax base I don't remember um so we would get on an annual basis we would like 16 retain that base plus the 10% and then we would be paying them the back the r correct because it's a pay go yes there's a it's like a almost like a loan you know right and every time we get a the taxes in we have to calculate and we have to turn around and we have to pay them this and then we kind of amortise it if the taxes the amount that we spend or we send back to them brings that balance down and maybe we pay it off in five years maybe 10 years it you know but it cannot not go any longer than what the term is set right so if at that the end of that term we haven't paid off that balance we're free and clear and then on page 28 is a perfect example of your chart the the graduation we're waiting we're waiting we're helping we're waiting we're waiting and then at the end of the term well that's basically what it is we're engaged for a while then we're finally get married so us a right now so okay again I'm like Joe too I'm not totally excited about it I I didn't have an individual tell me that uh and I haven't gone by the property it looks pretty cool from here but now that you can see it wide open and whatnot it looks like a nice viable I mean somebody with a vision an entrepreneur with a vision come and say this is pretty cool do we have to give it to these people and you've been working in this for so so long and you've seen the commitment that these people have I guess I'd be interested in what you have to say as well as whereas if this Suitor doesn't work out will another two of suitors come along and say this this has got some potential here this is pretty awesome I mean we're already doing the trees and we're going to pay for the road and get the road and and get that portion done but what is um your thought on this as far as this suor compared to now that it's wide open spaces what do you think all right not so mayor and Council so the Eda is under a purchase agreement with um this current individual this this developer if this developer walks um that property both zoning and highest and best use is really multif family it could sit it it could have somebody come along right behind it it it could end up sitting it's really hard to tell both between where the market is headed right now um alongside the cost of development and then just the general parcel itself is what it's it it is a high higher density parcel so it wouldn't be commercial it doesn't have any Street front so we don't have any commercial interest um so it's made for stacked living rather than individual mod mods well the problem the whole reason I think we're talking about this too is because for whatever reason the banks decide that multif family living is leaning more towards Tiff right what do you mean I I worded that poorly um I'm trying to so it it's hard to get approval from the banks if you want build a multif family property or Building without getting the Tiff approval as of late mayor and Council so the financial institutions do put a lot of uh that back on the communities that they want that local community investment and that's what we ran into so the only difference between tax abatement and Tiff really is that with the tip it guides some rent limits which the rent limits Guided by Tiff are still higher than our market value but essentially they're the exact same it it's just one comes with a string that a certain percentage of units have to remain guided um based on income but part of the challenge as well is they can't even they can't even put the rents at that level because our local market isn't that high so they kind of have an odd Gap um even using Tiff is that is that string only for the life of the Tiff so once they refy they could charge a million dollars for apartment to if they could get it in our area right yes that's an interesting point there there's a ceiling on the rent they can charge on a typical situation correct so there there is um an income restriction which then puts a string on the percentage of rent aot but our Market rent is still below the income and Market rent of a tip so because we got2 doll generals sorry so so essentially our people our our residents will be the ones renting it because essenti that's that's the market if that makes sense so back to the answer to my question then you said it was more it's more built for an apartment situation than a individual housing situation with what you've seen out there and whatnot could again if this suor didn't work out or we decided against Tiff and is it viable for somebody else might be saying boy I've been waiting to see what this looked like the way it was or or it's like maybe maybe not got a crystal ball yeah I was just say mayor councel maybe maybe not I I think I'm even watching this developer closely with the the cost of materials and the financing uncert you know right we're talking about recessions we're talking about tariffs we're talking about all these things that make it very difficult for developers um we touch base very frequently to I'm make sure we're all on the same path but if this developer was to walk away then if an apartment came behind them they're going to ask for the same Apartments do not build without Tiff subsidies and that's probably pretty stable for the last 15 this is an if and a maybe but the Hiller property that gentleman also claimed that he builds nice stuff and yada yada um and then that's the first thing the neighbors all ask about Section 8 housing or you know he I'm not taking any government money he said mine mine aren't that way but yet he could still come with his hand out to us saying mayor and Council he definitely could apply uh one thing that we would want to work very closely with ERS on though is if we were to approve Northshore and we have the tax abatement we're going to have to be very careful um they anybody can apply we could have somebody apply for um Economic Development there's like four uses remediation cleanup we don't have to accept them but we would and that's where we want to know sooner than later because all of these steps are very expensive for both the city and the project to get too far down just we've got to give good guidance on so are you saying we're opening up a can of worms so to speak to where you're going to get all these developers showing up asking I know there's another gentleman that by the church over there that mentioned Tiff to to me when I met with him and I don't know if he's still even around no mayor council so the other project came in asking for Tiff and then came back asking for all of the whack and Sack to be forgiven and when I pretty much said no are you we can't afford both he has gone away okay the thing is is we're you still have to have the the population to fill an apartment an empty apartment has no value so if we had Weaver that wanted to build two more and all of a sudden we say we have 320 units are there the people even here to live in it right I mean who lives in apartments our college kids our high school kids when they move out afford it days people right um theyve found to study a lot of the retail restaurant workers right there's there's there's a pattern um you have to have the jobs to support the residency you have to have the residency to support the commercial base we could build a 100 apartments and give them all tip but you're not going to fill them right so it's they have a market study they have a market study that supports what they're building in units um but if weever come along to to build two more his his Market study in five 10 years may only show he can support one more apartment then he has to figure out what to do with that other plot so there's an apartment that is um approved on The Rum River Bluffs and they're in the same boat they could come in in five 10 15 years and if we don't have the residents to support a market they're just not going to build an apartment they have to be able to fill them so so I think all of these kind of predetermined conversations with these other apartments they may or may not ask for the funding but they may or may not build based on the residence that in where is that project with the Bloss right now still kind of just waiting for a new mayor council so we have a new developer um and we're hoping to actually get that preliminary plat finalized or not preliminary plat but the final plat finalized this spring thank you can can a city be overburdened by too much Tiff say Hiller the Hiller property does build and is there does l ever caution about or have you seen the city's called victim too too much out there I mean our next conversation is going to be about um sewer and water and whatnot if you limit yourself in what you can and can't do can you not then support what's being build say the market says yeah build them build them but then City's going we're starving for we you know we've lent some money out here so to speak and can you be overden by tips yeah mayor and councel Ellers has definitely got their pulse on these um and I had had a conversation with Nick I want to say a year or two ago when we started this project conversation and there isn't a a cap on how many we can do however it does fall back on what's reasonable for our budgets for our Levy if if we're you know Ellers knows what situation we're in if if all of a sudden we had four applications they may look at Darcy and go absolutely not so we we work with them very closely for that guidance to make sure we're not put in a financial I think if you built too many like you say you wouldn't be able to fill them or you're going to end up if you do fill them all then we got to add on to the plant or you have to which costs the people that are on it obviously and then uh you're also you know your emergency services you're taxing too yeah all right that's all I had to keep thank you well most of my questions already got answered um well but yeah I think I think we have to we have to look at that we don't obviously we don't want it to sit vacant for a long time we have to be a little bit careful I'm also not not fully in favor of Tiff but I do understand that there's a place for it when we need it um we haven't we haven't handed out a lot um historically so I guess if if I mean we we know that the only way this place is coming in is if if we give it so I guess we really have to sit and figure out if that's something because like Kate said we can't let them get too much further down the path nor can we go much further down without giving them answer so um yeah I guess yes if if that's if that's the path we're going down I think we just have to be realistic about what other places are going to be asking for tip and how we're going to be looking on you um I'm just GNA say up front I have basically I really don't have much problem at all with it being an apartment that being said I'm going to tell you flat out I'm Kate heard this already from me I'm 100% a polls to Tiff and I'll tell you some of my biggest reasons why I've got a lot of them but one of my biggest ones is if I go and build a house on a bare bare lot the city's going to get taxes from that lot ongoing taxes there's no I don't get any tax financing I don't get any help for for investing in my city the other one is I love the page 28 that Kevin highlighted there I love it we as a taxpayer are supposed to wait for let's just say 10 years we wait you think the investors aren't making a return the private investors aren't making a return in that 10 years I that's touched that so we as the taxpayers we as the citizens are supposed to sit here and wait for 10 years or 15 years why the investors make their money off the project it it it it really just becomes again you know who who who who wants the return on their in who wants their return on investment so yeah there is an investment let's just say 10 years I don't know what it's going to be down the line but the investors aren't waiting for their return on it so if a private person wants to come in there and build that apartment building and they follow all our rules and regulations more power to you I I think that's fine but I I I look at this already and what I don't know is so you Kate you referenced that the E Eda did do a purchase how much how much did they buy the lot for so America so the the Eda sold the lot to them for $5,000 there's their tax break right there in my opinion you want a tax break a lot like that for $5,000 and and not to mention we're clearing the trees on it and everything else so for me and then the other one Joel alluded to it a little bit here too is yeah we can see a potential Market study that says that they'll fill it and that there'll be a return on our must in 10 years what we're not talking about like Joel alled to is more wear and tear on our roads in the meantime and everything else and we're just traffic traffic and our and you know of course when you when put people on a higher density population of course there's going to be some crime and there's going to be some fire calls going there and and we take it we we're we take the hits and the investors make their returns so I I I have nothing against Northshore I don't mind them asking I get it and Tiff is a widely used tool I get that but sooner or later we've got to stop this game as a state as a nation we got to stop this game of giving Tiff money to and then then Northshore doesn't get it here so Northshore goes next door and says will you give me Tiff money and they go to the next Community say will you give me Tiff money this game's got to stop either the Project's economically feasible or it's not and if it's not economically feasible it shouldn't be on taxpayers for a perceived long-term return When investors are making their return so I got nothing more sorry but sorry for the rant um I have just a couple questions first of all I agree with everything Mark said um but I'm the first one to say that I need like training Tiff train training for dummies cuz I I don't understand it um every question everybody asked made sense um but I'm wondering if we why we didn't have this discussion before the Eda voted to sell the property for $5,000 or you know or whatever the amount was that was the amount but if the project won't go forward with nor Shore did this do this conversation happen last year and I and I didn't know it may maybe it did but may I'm just wondering the timing of it and um I I just that that was that was one of the questions I wrote down can I answer that yes so roughly about two years ago we did have a meeting and all five were in favor of you and moving forward with the project okay and that's what got us to today okay okay I didn't know that um and then so if it does it mean that the apartment building is Section 8 if there's those income rules that that's that's totally not it is not a section a building it would be Tiff supported which is okay um clear as mud and then maybe this happened but did was the I understand that the property was owned by the Eda which I also need Eda for dumy lesson on that but um if if the property was owned by the Eda did anyone else have an opportunity to buy it I mean was it listed for sale was it did did we what did we do to like give others an opportunity to know that hey if you buy this building for $5,000 we'll clear it for you and we'll give you to like like if what what did we do to Market it yeah so mayor council it's been for sale for 5 years okay along with the corner um for redevelopment okay so it we've we we reviewed a townhouse project but they came in with far to less units that it really didn't make sense and it wasn't allowing it to go through so that was turned on oh the by Council there was a townhouse unit that wanted to go right there correct oh okay um I I'm sorry no you go ahead well I just had a followup question on that so it was the $5,000 purchase of it contingent upon going through I mean so technically let's just say it falls apart do they does norshore own it no mayor council if if much like when you buy a house if their financing falls apart the property comes back to the thank you if they can't get get a tip we still have it yep sorry no you know you're okay um I guess those those are my questions um I I well my only other question is we we talk a lot about the traffic right here those sounds can be nice we talk a lot about the traffic here I'm good Jenny I just slid over um we talk a lot about the traffic and it being so close to um Bridge Street and Ambassador here our main intersection um how is that going to affect the traffic to have a 120 unit 120 unit right building so close and if we're going to put in really new streets um through there that you know that one is like a dirt road I know already but it's not being used now as a street and if we're going to put in new streets so close to the intersection I don't know that that concerns me so mayor council both access points of this development are our County and they have been involved from the beginning not only with the road uh with the St Francis forward with the design standards and with uh multiple Concepts so they are very aware of it they don't see this intersection as an issue the only thing that they want to see is that the individual property access go away and that's why we're not allowed to put another Drive driveway onto Bridge Street and everything will be funneled hence the new road that's going in all of that property has to funnel through that single access point of that road all of the driveways from the properties has to dissolve um with that the county is not concerned and then they are looking at this intersection but they they have that's their only concern was that we could not have the individual properties it had to funnel to the new Ro but they have seen all of this and been involved with us since the St Francis forward in 2018 they are aware of of the density they are aware of the planning um the road connections and everything other I have one question okay what's the estimated value of this parcel if it was located in and or Cambridge the same square footage locations might be kind of interesting what's it what's what would be its estimated value elsewhere May C I would have to research that ask Melle that one yeah I don't know um I don't know what it's retail value or taxable value no retail value again for as a a clean clear cleared piece of property somewhere else what's its value I mean we Eda wrote A P purchas agreement 5,000 again what's what would be worth somewhere else I mean I get what Mark and Amy are saying um but again we've had what's the cost of the city currently per year for us to own it we pay property taxes to the county for it no mayor council that is not generating nor do we pay in we have to maintain it we have to keep it clear um we have to get access you know the road the the clearing of it is the road to we can't even sell these Parcels without these access points um so that'll be our greatest expense going forward is maintaining that road just to try to sell these two properties sure do we have an estimated cost of what the road idea what the road cost to put it through gter and what not yeah Mar and ccil approximately about 1.1 million right now and the $5,000 purchase price and we've got it ready for them they got a road in there and correct yeah I would be intrigued to know what that's worth elsewhere um I know we've had it this long and stuff but I hate to go to go too far backwards to go forwards but it it'd be nice to [Music] know well didn't I'm sorry it didn't the hill property isn't that five acres I mean how much did the the reitter list it for when they listed it so mayor Cil when we list the Eda properties I believe we had that one for hundred and something um again it's it's based on you so the Hiller property with a commercial front is a very different market value than a back lot such as this one that's true you go back in Zillow Amy and find out I think I I I I don't want to say the amount I saw it one time I saw it too but I don't remember what it was what did we what did we so this project here what did we what did we buy that for then back five years ago six years ago whenever that was what did we what did we as a city spend on that um mayor and councel I would have to look back at at all of our I think we had under under 200,000 for acquisition and demo okay that's not just a ball I it was under 225 or 200 for both and we bought it because it to help guide our development or was it owned by someone else in they yep the family a cluster the family owned it it was dilapitated and much like what we're seeing with the building on Bridge Street now um that dapit doesn't move so what we did is the Eda acquired it we removed the old house start to become a hazard too with kids playing in it clean it up and then with the whole point of Redevelopment it was purchased for any other questions so I mean I don't know do we you want us to like take an unofficial vote here or what what what are you looking for if it's if it's not moving forward I need to know if you're not going to approve tip I need to know so I can tell them it's not moving forward so I I guess some type of unofficial Vote or I like the sack and whack part of it that's really the biggest part that I like about it that's the benefit to risk ratio I like your points too Mark I think you that's part of my issue too but it's it's also too how do you move forward because if you're going to end up this is my Contender room that I'm sh with you I guess so you get somebody say you get uh somebody that has the money you know Trump comes in and says he wants to build a Trump Hotel there awesome right the price you're going to have to C the the if you're going to be a high-end person you're going to want to get that money back too so then our residents can't live there so we become a chicken or egg type of situation where it's can we put affordable apartment there and the only way to do that is through Tiff well in theory right otherwise somebody's going to come in with the money that wants to make money and they going to make more money try yeah and then how is that going to work too so and is this the market for that person to build in and I think that's the the conundrum that I find ourselves in and that's that's where I say Tiff is to me it's it's a tool but it's I'm with you in principle but at the same time it's like I say I I waiver on that a little bit here's where I struggle on I mean Amy kind of alluded to it more I I I definitely admit it I gotta learn more about the Eda I I personally I'm not a fan of City playing Eda or or Tiff or Pats I I don't think the city should be in the business of buying selling land and real estate Etc so I mean I I have to learn a whole lot more just about how Eda operates I don't I best I don't know a lot this moment but I I just don't it's kind of what I'm saying it's it's a principle for me and I I have nothing against Northshore if I was Northshore I'd be asking us for Tiff too so this is isn't personal at all I I totally get it but I I'm just tired of this game and and because I'm a small player when I build my house I don't get it or if I'm the wrong business I'm I'm gonna be I'm a dentist I don't get it because the city doesn't really want a dentist so you got all the other businesses who don't get a break you're gonna to try and drive this project forward and my argument would be yeah sack and whack you're right we we would we would gain there absolutely we we gain on water usage and and blah BL all that there'd be a plus side but we're not talking about the negative side we spent $200,000 on the lot we're Los we spent how much money clearing the trees and then we're gonna on top of it all we're going to give them whatever whatever a tiff a 10year tiff let's just say hypothetically no to me it's too much so I I'm I'm sorry to Kate and the people who put the time into it I'm sorry for norshore developer but I'm just telling you right out front I'm a solid no so I I think Kate does need guidance also I don't know who wants to go next go ahead PA May mayor and Council one other thing I I think that needs to be considered in the situation too just uh just sitting here listening is the actual our our Enterprise fund right we'd have another 12 some users in that small space that's also something to be considered I think in this situation uh um if it were Town Homes if it were lower density we would have nowhere near we could add nowhere near that many customers so that's also something to think about in this situation so thank you and that helps the schools too I mean presumably they're going to there's going to be kids and you know that helps the school to you know generate more students be jumping over the fence so people yeah totally like the lady said last time but um oh I had another question sorry you can think of it anybody else want to I mean we get we do we do need to get k and these guys some guidance I I don't I mean it's not not like it's a super formable B but we have to we have to we should let them know I'm I'm with you so it's up to the three of them oh I did I remembered my question um how many other projects are currently on the Tiff Spectrum with us like like upcoming UPC no like the ones that how many have we done in the last 10 years um years we haven't done so mayor and Council we had one but it fell through correct we haven't done any other subsid programs I when was Turtle Ridge that was before I came 2004 in 2010 so it was existing when I came in 2010 this the Prairie's abatement is probably about the only thing that compared to recently okay when that's just the city city side of it okay that was question I'm going to go with Mark and Amy I I would say no at this time at 1.1 million again our next conversation is going to be what the future holds for the existing stakeholders as far as our sewer and water goes and what not this is some heavy stuff and the citizens are going to there's going to be some pitchforks and torches going on I if the street was less money which I know streets cost money but again 5,000 is a good bue and I know you've done a ton of work on it and I I've always been on your side on pretty much 98% of what's going on here but 1.1 million put a street through and then um and I understand Tiff is part of living the economic living of the this but I think in this case my get tells me to uh pass on it well I just wanted to add one more thing to the I Mark and and Kate we went to a meeting last week with the school district about trying to get 47 and Bridge Street to connect and you you mentioned that the county or state said that this intersection will fail I don't know how what that means fail but by 2030 which I actually would think it would be sooner s because we just have so much traffic right here that when you know I drive my kids to school every day my 13s and we go by and they're like oh look at all the trees the trees are all gone I'm like oh yeah they're going to put an apartment there they're going to and again my my teenage girls said what do we need an apartment there for there's so much traffic here already and I it's I just feel like it's so close to this intersection and I I just don't feel like it's the right time um for that and it's just it's just going to add more traffic and I think we just have a traffic problem right here but but the thing is is that lot those lot it's going to be high density it's not going to make sense for for anything else well I agree with that I agree with that we can't we just because we say no to this Tiff doesn't mean that six weeks later somebody else doesn't come in and say I can afford that's not going to alleviate that traffic issue no matter if we Tiff it or not that's not going to solve that and we can't just sit there saying well we we don't want to do anything for 30 years with this lot because this intersection is going to fail we can't we can't run our city that way either so um I mean and and why do we need apartment because we don't have enough places for people to live that's that is the bottom line people who want to come to St Francis cannot find housing now they may move into apartment for six months to a year and be able to find a home that that is a lot of what happens so you know and and I have heard we don't need more Apartments we really don't have it we the apartments that you have around here if you're looking to move here you are not you're you're on a waiting list for five years to get in an apartment I and and you can't so I mean why do we need because we need housing why do we need it there because that's what makes sense that's that's what that it doesn't we're never going to make it if we put single family homes or town homes back there Tesla dealership it's not probably so that is really meant for that high density that's what it needs to be um whether we like it or not we don't have a lot of room in the city to build anything we're we're running out of places to build until some of our elderly decide to pass along and their families decide to sell off is what's going to happen and even then you don't know so um they're moving in Vista the older people the older people we we hope they are but we can't guarantee that either because again we hear from that can we afford if it's more for them to move into Vista than to stay in their homes elderly people aren't they they aren't spending that money so we got to think about that I I I don't like I I'm not a huge fan of fan of tip either but I I trust Kate's judgment I trust the fact that she knows that that whoever comes in next with an apartment they're going to ask for Tiff too so we're either going to just say you know what we're going to throw flush all this money down the toilet and let it sit there or we're going to have to figure out how we work with somebody well Ellers has to qualify and yeah and and and so maybe that is the next step we have to have Ellers take a big look at this and tell us whether or not it's even feasible because I don't think we can just sit here and say we don't like tips that we're not going to do it I don't think that's how we can run it I don't think it's the fact that we don't like tip but I would say my hard for the development up on the North side if somebody's coming with you wants to build an apartment there Tiff Full Speed Ahead there baby cuz I know what else is coming in that big partial there's a bigger payback and if you're going to you know lay it down that's where that's where I put my not it's a maybe everything here is a maybe everything we talking about a maybe it is and that's that's a hard thing is it's like figuring out so there is no limit to the Tiff but like you're saying though too it puts more tax we want to keep doing that either but I'm just saying we I'm I'm you know six here six there I I really don't I don't want to do tip but I also kind of feel like if Kate's sitting there telling us that any any building coming in there or anything wanting to go there is going to ask for Tiff then we have to be willing to say we're going to put in this road for $ 1.1 million and we have to be willing to let it sit there for a very long time but maybe the next would have more bring more to the table than maybe but again the right now the lot I mean we have people coming from East bethl getting help from cities six counties over to be able to get something to come in it's just it's the environment that we're in I'm not saying we need to do it I'm just saying we need to be realistic we need to be realistic then that if we're going to say and and what just because we think that this part might maybe is Tim we were G to or uh is we were G to Jeff we were gonna come ask us for money for Tiff there there's a good chance he will just knowing um I mean who I mean certainly But but so yeah so I mean if if obviously if the rest of the council isn't in of the Tiff then we need to just move move on and Kate needs to tell norshore that it's not happening part of my hope is it kind of alluded to it though I I need to learn more about do we need Ellers then would it be helpful for you to have Ellers come in or if I mean because if you're if you're gonna say no anyway and Amy's gonna say any no way Kevin's gonna say no anyway we don't need to bring Ellers in we don't need to waste their time or any of our staff time or any of our time to sit here and listen to ell's present on why they would or want not be good some of this goes back to my comment about the Eda though too I'm very confused about the Eda we've been sitting on that lot for five years it didn't even enter on on my radar to a year ago part parcel the Eda owns down here on on Bridge Street further down nobody knows it's for sale I'm sure in the commercial Market they do but how do you get how do you get people talking about you put a sign on a lot saying commercial lot for sale just like they did on the Hiller property that Steve sign from the corner there you can put over so so I mean who who so to my to your point kind of you know who I think it's number one I think the tree clear I think was probably a good thing regardless I think makes it much more visible visionable for for somebody but nobody nobody knows in this city about these Lots nobody in the city knows so yeah the commercial world knows but we we got nothing up there's there's there I I've seen nothing so how do we how we can say it if we're sitting on these lap for five years well yeah some because I don't think we're marketing them we are excuse me we're marketing looking to buy property though no I'm not we're we're marketing them but we're not really I'm just saying the people that are going to see it are the people that are looking for it or the people that are driving by and when I if I drive by I tell a friend exactly tell is that develop you right so I I'm I would hope that we could still sell them I you know I I don't know why not but yeah it's it would be probably a struggle for him but I I'm sorry Sarah all know on this one so and that's what I'm saying think I think Kate probably has a pretty good feeling of where she needs to go with this um well you no where Joe where you end up on that well don't go bow on us either what the hell that mean well I mean like I say I'm I'm I'm in the middle but I would say if I had to make a decision G to my head I'd probably go for it for the fact that I I think we're going to end up um sitting on an empty lot that we just paid to clear for nothing really I mean and that's not I'm disappointed in myself hearing your question about the road and the cost that I didn't ask that at the Eda meeting as well um so I appreciate your question too because that kind of gets my wheels turning to kind of make me want to say no as well but um there are some reasons that trees had to come down too I found out today which are important okay so timing is everything so now but again I think it it's got now you get anybody with some an investor has a vision of what it can be rather than trees well just like with anything with the abatements or whatever it's the long game you're playing because we're looking at I'm looking at that in five years um you know um that we're going to get that those tax revenues are they going to be taxing on our emergency services in the meantime absolutely which that's the hardest part for me to swallow um I don't think an apartment would be as taxing as the living and whatnot uh but nonetheless it's you're you're playing that long game and then seeing the sack and whack again that's and I'm biased because I we've been dealing with those water rates for a long time too so um that pushes me a little bit but it doesn't I mean it's not it doesn't make it doesn't make my decision the the and the people that I've heard complain about an apartment um personally you know obviously your daughter mentioned something about like why do we need one and the people that I've heard of are people that are on the well system that are not affected by it to where again when this whole thing was being built we tried to tell people like Rule people you will be affected one way or another there's going to have to be more development to fill up this plan and that's part of why you should care granted you might not pay the rates but that's eventually we're going to have to try to push development to try to fill up the not necessarily try to fill up the plan but you know what I'm saying to get more users to help pay for it and whatnot and that's where it's kind of like that's the benefit that in the tax dollars in 5 10 years eight years whenever the ERS decides would be the number um so I mean in this case got to my head right now I'd probably be in favor of it but doesn't matter it's three to two and that's okay because like I say I'm on the fence I could live either way with it there I'm sorry I I hadn't thought of the water part of it so that's a good point and and sir I agree with what you're saying the traffic could be there anyway by somebody coming in you know we'd have to approve that they do that but you know is somebody coming in who's not asking for Tiff so I it could be Aon for them to move the bus garage to get your road exactly and so you know I just it's all what if and we shouldn't say no to this just because we don't like Tiff I agree with what you said there sorry M mayor and Council I do want to say you have a much another piece to this coming up later in this meeting and is the and Sewer rates so I just I just want to just remind you that that is a very big piece to so you want us to pause this decision for them that's not a bad thing I don't I don't mind if we want to come back and resisit it I'm I'm okay with she's right there's an integral part in the coming in next subject line yeah while you're going to talk about parks and then you're going to talk about water Andes I I if if the rest of your in I'm okay if we come back to change your mind so all right let's just kind of put pause on this get Paul out par out of here there I'm in for the duration tonight so go ahead uh Mar and Council before you tonight is a continuation of what we had talked about from the last uh work session um one of the things that needs to considered is we go from uh complete underfunding uh the park fund to the possibility if we were add the K Street funds from the old city hall to a $1.1 million partk fund so we need to be strategic in how the money is spent um staff stepped back had a few different discussions and was able to come up with a couple of different options moving forward the first option would be what we had discussed what council had discussed at the last work session would be the purchase of The Rum River Church property um it would end up with just with just the purchase of property there are two there are two different things that Council discussed would be a demolition or possibly a model uh we'd be looking about 340,000 to purchase and and demolish the building um if we were to and this is a rough estimate if we were to purchase it and remodel it for for some more indoor maybe a community center whatever we had talked about we're looking at close to probably closer to $600,000 the second option that staff discussed was we've been working with the with a engineering company to remodel the warming house area uh a second thing that was also discuss is we also have a park that was put up in 1997 that residents have been complaining about for several years now uh we could also remodel the warming house we could phase it out into different phases the the first would be to remodel the rink and then also remodel the warming house at the same time and then we could also discuss putting something you know remodeling The Rum River parks as well um if we were to remodel the rink and the and the um warming house at that point we would have a year round facility we could have people there year round skitting in the winter we'd also have an indoor facility uh we could also have um pickle ball in the summer along with the picnic shelter there uh so Council this evening we like Direction on three different things number one we'd like staff would like Council to make a final decision on the purchase of The Rum River Property whether to purchas purchase it or not the second discussion would be to inform staff where Council would like the proceeds from The Old City Hall the cre Street Building to go and the third is if if we choose to move uh forward with with which option we need information on do we want to we want to move forward with the remodel of the of the if we purchase the the r River Property do we REM model it demolish it um or if we go with the other option uh we'd like um a directive and how quickly we can move forward on the warming house side so I hope I've explained that we can we can work through it as we go here so live moving pieces can I just ask one quick question before I rolling through everybody here so when you said the existing Park funds is $557,000 correct that is for maintenance it's for what is that for that can be used for that is what council started was it two seasons ago to RC well we've had one year this year no no no two this last year and this year correct we're getting a l for it so the numbers there mayor it's it's we have 570 and then the total potential was if we were to add the proceeds from the cre Street Building sorry sorry I just had to add that one up front I'll just start down the am you want to go first on this one um sure okay um I don't have a lot of questions except so the if we sell the cre Street Building what are our options as far as where that goes I believe can probably help me answer this a little bit better that if we can do mayor and Council per Charter it can go to Capital Improvements or to retire debt so Capital Improvements really could be anything building me Cil we have four Capital Improvements based basally it's Parks buildings streets and then Capital Equipment and so Capital Equipment is funded you know we have the levy going in there that that we have taken care of we have um buildings money going into that one and then the street is taken care of by The Levy and stuff that we have existing and the plan going forward so this was our last Capital Improvement fund that kind of needed help that need there's a long list of things that they want to do so that's kind of what we came down to designating it for that purpose um now we don't officially decide anything tonight no but it's the same kind of thing we're kind of Direction corre um I like the idea of I like the idea of remodeling the warming house and making it a year round facility and if that had a community room that would appease that and we could figure out the that that that's where I would probably go with with it um it I mean it doesn't have to but that's one other thing that we could make that work I like the pickle b ball ideas um so you're saying that the ice rink would be year round May and council did I hear you right no no no year round ice rank no no no so well however it it would be a year round you would use the ice rink year round so inside of the rink we can put six pickle ball courts so that rink will be used year round is what I meant I miss I thought it was a year round ice rink so um well the warming house you're talking about possibly using that as D May counil that's correct so we're actually going to be when when the when the cre Street Building is sold we're transferring all of that to the actual warming house and it's actually going to give us a good I think I think a good test run of how well we can use utilize that warming house building so correct I'm sorry question problem my question so option two when you said 79280 which includes the other playground but that is the same flip print other than the overhang or is does that increase the footprint of a warming house option too so that that actually that that increases the it doesn't increase the actual footprint it does put the overhang on it and gives it the the remodel the facelift the Ada bathrooms and so on sorry sorry no that's okay I I yeah I I like that idea anything else for me um I probably wouldn't be up for the rum um Boulevard building the remodeling of it I just I just don't see how that would work I I I just maybe it's just me I just can't picture it but um I I I do understand the idea of you know the missing piece of that lot but I probably would be up for if we if we purchased it to demolish it so so to be clear just so I'm clear on this what your what you're saying oh you gotta pick one of the other thank you well I'll go with the the warming house thank you yeah option two thank you that would that's me but that's good joke what are the benefits of buying that lot and then demolishing it the only benefit is to add Park property yeah I have to say option two seems like it it's a better I that's all I have with that one agree I agree I don't uh after further thought it's a nice piece of the puzzle but at 250 or 275 they're fir on price it's not worth it I just want to um I thought about uh cre Street the proceeds those proceeds all don't have to go to park stuff let's keep in mind you know a million 110,000 and if you spent the 792 on phase two you still have 318,000 left over I mean just because we we've come into some windfall doesn't mean we got to spend it all right so my next question is Remer Woods people have been asking and clamoring for it how many people and then also how many other parts need attention and haven't been clamored for question yeah so Baron Council I'm in the process right now of putting a realistic Park CIP together we're actually starting that discussion with Kate next week uh Jeremy and I have been working on it now for a couple of weeks we can stretch out some of these Parks a little bit longer but the one that was put up in 1997 is falling apart it Rum River or a different Rum River and as far as as far as complaints I I know I know that last year I I met with three different people on it I'm actually having a I'm having a neighborhood meeting on it because it's not just me talking to people it's been Jen it's been Jeremy while they're in the neighborhood people are talking to us about it M that Park actually still has pck as which is which you cannot put that in anymore um as as a base for a playground so that gives you an idea why is that just curious that at that at that time that P Rock was acceptable underneath playground equipment it no longer is because of the concussion protocols and stuff all right um can I ask a question Qui Kevin no um what's the cost of the one you're talking about falling apart what just a guest shot in the dark what would that cost to fix so we actually I actually went out and and 55,000 and that's an actual that's an actual bid we went out and got two bids on that Park in 22 so we'd have enough left over if we did option two to possibly address that one as well that's correct and and those two those two right pieces of the puzzle the warming house and that part are are the most in need of improvement and then when you say overhang are you done Joe yeah overhang what do you mean um how big is an overhang on the approximately mayor council the the overhang would be to the north side of of the building it's going to overhang I think it was 16 feet it's enough to put I believe we three different picnic tables underneath of it okay um uh and the thought there was if you were playing pick a ball in the summer you'd have Sumer to sit and have a picnic or over whatever you want to do and then the extent of remodeling on the inside you had you said you get 8 compliant yes and again as far as a community room what would you put in there some do it have indoor outdoor carpeting in there now or it concrete no uh mayor council right now because it also serves as a warming house it's a rubber mat floor so your skates aren't damaged right but so I I I had this discussion with our building Tech as well and it would actually work out quite well to have that as a as a we could leave that floor in there that's one of the savings pieces we could keep well got a walker all right seriously my grandma Arcane my grandma's 89 struggling to get her on not that she' come to the warming house maybe she would have to to play pickle ball it could happen any I guess that'd be for phase two for sure keeping in mind that we still have 318,000 that doesn't have to go to Parks I mean Parks need to address we made a commitment two years ago to bolster that fund but again just because we got it all of a sudden doesn't mean we got to spend it around a sudden I'm G to jump in on that real quick just to do your point I totally agree with you I I that's just say it's the 300,000 you know obviously you don't want parks to be completely emptied because they' got to maintain someon there for the next project a year or two years down the road yeah I think the rest of it I it should go into some sort of capital Improvement fund whether it be brid Street going through or something else I think we got to take some some of it and put it into a capital Improvement for some other project right uh that's all I have thank you Sarah yeah I I would be more leaning towards option two as well just because I think that by doing that we can offer some of those things looking to have whereas if we go with option one we add to our Park which in the long run probably will be to our benefit but we buy that property we demolish the house then we have to sit there and wait to see what we can actually put back up so I think to I mean it I I wish we could do both but we can't so I would have to say that option to um and and then work with that getting that part fix because I I would I mean I think it's been four maybe five years ago that I went I spent a whole weekend and I went to every one of our BS and I sent in pictures and I told them what was wrong with everything and and nothing since then has been fixed because we didn't have anything there so I think that by doing option two we're we're leaving us a little bit of wiggle room too where we can do some of these improvements on our parks that our residents are saying yeah we have all these Parks but if I go there and the swings don't work how do I play with my kids if I go there and the slide is broken or I go there and there's obscenities written all over our Park equipment what what good does that do us so yeah I would have to say I would love to see us get that property but at the price that they're asking and it's a high price everything else I just don't think that's feasible for where we at option two would be I'm in favor of option two as well and I just got one question this is more probably more a cake question because I know I asked it before so these future potential developments are going to happen let's just say the one that they're hopefully going to go to final plat with here when they have that Park dedication fund where is that to go the mayor council Park dedication is Guided by State Statute it has to go to new or expanding so our last big Park that we used to park dedication was for the creation sideway par so uh for uh the hockey rank remodel we really we can't use Park dedication because that's maintenance okay so there hypothetical I don't know what's in their dedication fund but could you use that say to expand the park by buying the building that house cuz that's kind of like a yes expanding you're expanding it I mean that's more of a gray area legal question I guess but that's why I just wondering throwing it out there is not that we even have enough in there because I don't even know what the hell's in there that's why I'm bringing it up right exactly to your question you have 97,5 well that answers that do you think they'll accept that no but I I well I guess so it may not even apply to this situation the reason I bring it up is just to get everybody's had to think about this because my attitude what we don't need is more small parks that we can't maintain I I'd rather see us build that account up if it's 91,000 let's just say we get Park dedication fees I get it that it can only be used for new parks I'd rather it goes into that account so we can do bigger things rather than small Park small Park small park that are just you can't keep up you can't maintain them and reality is we're a driving Community out here and everybody pretty much has larger yach lots to begin with but you drive to destinations so I lost not that big it's it's just a it's just a it's more comment that I would like to see in the future Park dedication fund is gold just build into account where we can actually do something substantial with it rather than build small parks that are a maintenance nightmare so well like you said Sarah you spent a whole weekend going to all of our Parks it took it it it it took a long time so you know to maintain all of those but segue aside I'm I I definitely am in favor of option to I mean I like the idea of expanding the part of the house but I I it's just not it's not a good Roi as Joel said so I I confused the hell out of me when I read it I'm like why would you buy it and tear it down anybody else any question all it's all have my direction thank you thank you so on to Water and Sewer rates here Council so I'll get us started and then I'll leave the technical pieces to Darcy and Paul but I wanted to kind of walk through the packet I know we put a lot in there and this is really regarding the water and sewer Enterprise funds so this does not affect the levy as the levy cannot Aid in the expenses of the Enterprise funds if that makes sense um each year we we look at this we sit down with Public Works St cni and we go through all of the assets we go through all of the projects and all the unforeseeably and what it's showing you on this is it would be um roughly a 25 20 and 10% increase for the next three years in our water and sewer ratees um what's really hard is we need to balance that cost and the use because if cost becomes too high and people stop using water we have to raise the cost of the water again so for the people that are using it yep so we get in a really vicious circle that we do our best to try to keep neighb on as it's a very delicate balance um in there we talk about um some of the the slides the staff is proposing as part of this um so a couple questions I'll back up a little bit so it's getting late yeah so we talked about special assessments with Mark and um on the last project and why we special assessed when when we have a road program so these accounts do not um do not account for assessments that assessments are really become the cash reserves then that roll forward to Future projects uh we talk about a chloride Reduction Program this is in here to look at a solution to temporarily buy time and this is for and I I'll let the guys get more technical with this but this is really a placeholder um in 2020 31 for some plant improvements however you know doing a Reduction Program would would bias some time um I threw in some slides a couple Pages back that really talk about some of the history um we look at you know when like right now we're not concerned about growth levels so there is a slide though that when we get to 75% we start having these conversations we have a long ways to go and we what's a little intimidating is we have a lot of units to fill up and we're still having to increase these rates um so we also go through some of the regular or regulatory certainties our plant um is set for about roughly another nine years so we're watching legislation constantly every year we track that from the water side the environmental side and the the Wastewater side uh one of the big budget impacts has to do with the what's called our media which is the filters in 2028 we're looking at roughly $800,000 to dispose of this media because of its the nature of its content uh the other thing we're watching very closely is that chloride program and again the the chloride Reduction Program if we don't keep our chlorides down or try to Aid in keeping them down would force us to do plant improvements before we're prepared or sooner than later so the chloride program is kind of like I said a tool to buy us some time is what we're hoping um and then we move forward to you know the expansion of the water and wastewater facilities and again all of this I in the back there's a little bit on funding all of this comes down to rates so if we expand a line if we build a building if we have to replace the roof it all goes back to the rate users so what we need to really look at tonight is just kind of roughly review this information um and see how you know those rates fall on that third page in regards or second page in regards to where we're going to land also give us some direction on moving forward with the three-year chloride Reduction Program is that something you feel is valuable to use to buy time right you're committing say roughly $300,000 but but at the same time if it buys us 5 10 years or is it you know we'll have to monitor that year by year maybe we have to add a fourth year if we're getting close or trust the mpca Is Not Gon it's a trial right it's completely a trial and then really understanding these rates um how we get there how we're we are you know Bound by inflation and tariffs and Regulatory legis ation and all of these things that we could sit here tonight and do these threeyear rates and it is the best guess of what we know today but if they if they throw something on the floor and vote for a horrible bill this year it it could have it we could be back in the fall having to adjust again um these rates are set with our fee schedule in the fall so we have time um but at the same time if we're going to start something like the Chlor Chlor chloride program I always want to call chlorine they keep correcting me um chloride program the sooner we can start that the better for two 20126 because we want it to be successful and we need to get those Chlor chloride levels down um so with that I can answer questions but Darcy and Paul are really in Parish are the technical experts and we are here to answer any questions and walk through it so anybody particular wants to start I can start so just to put it out [Laughter] there um just to put it out there part of the reason we ended up in the situation we were in for the Wastewater facility was because council did not listen to Darcy when she got here and talked about raising their rates so not that I like these numbers because I hate them um according to this we have to do the Tiff and the chloride program just kidding um I'm curious I guess so the 25% like that's and that's just the water side so I'm looking at these numbers and I I don't it says you know so right now um my house has been 6509 for a while which is I'm guessing the lowest it can possibly be for water and sewer is that sound ACC I think I've seen less but okay One Step maybe it's been like steady 659 so maybe it's a step above anyway probably using 2,000 gallons that's what I'm guessing I I didn't look at the number I just pay the bill people use one that's per month yeah and that's yeah so um if I don't know so 25% of the like what does it look like number one what does it look like so that would be the 2000 so it would go up to 6543 roughly then per month well that's current okay so we go to the next one okay so 7384 yep yep so yeah for somebody using 2,000 gallons their bill would go from 6543 to 73 okay per month and then the next year we go to 84 38 and then 92 okay why are I so I know another thing too um take ownership is when we got into console we did whatever we could to try to lower the rates to soften the blow didn't help us any so to speak because there's a risk reward right so we did lower that initial blow um was it was down 20% or something I think it was roughly 20 okay and that also was draining our reserves sack and whack so risk reward you know and now we're looking at having to deal with that as well which is part of the reason why these numbers are the way they um good friend of mine just points something on I sorry to interrupt you this one and they pointed out and I think it's a very good comment he said you can't you don't use the word reduce we're not really gonna be able to reduce anything here we got to stabilize is is the we should be us so I'm just trying to say in general language when we're talking to people we should never really use the word reduce right for for these rates because we can't really reduce these rates now we can try and stabilize them to some degree but we can't reduce them so just wanted to throw that out there sorry mayor and Council just one thing I want to say is what we look at um is I'm watching the cash balance and then does that cover uh 40% of next year's costs our next year's Debt Service and then Capital Improvements the next year and so that's that graph and I don't have that here just because there's so much you want to you want to make sure that your available cash balance stays above which we're predicting and then that's how what generates the increase in the rates is I'm trying to predict when that cash balance is I'm in favor of option three what what exact I guess and I read it a minute ago and my brain's a little foggy I think we too long but what uh what do you exactly need for me right now far as decisions or options or I know it says discuss the chloride program which is interesting annoying but it is what it is right um the grants I guess so the grants there was it a grant or there something to help people replace their softeners or on demand or whatever you're mentioning how does that work so mayor and Council that's essentially what we're talking about here tonight for the chloride Reduction Program so just to back up a little bit okay mpca we have a we have a set limit from the plant the only way you can decrease chlorides is at the beginning not at the end so it has to be at the water plant yeah we are flirting with the limit we have been for quite some time one way one way that that we can get an idea of and and parish is here tonight to answer questions as well uh one thing we can do is if we do this chloride Reduction Program our biggest culprit or one of our we assume one of our biggest culprits we don't know this for sure is the water softeners in town it it's salt directly right into the Wastewater okay uh what we're going to try and find out or what we'd like to find out is and we're going to know and and Parish can help me out with this too um we're going to probably get an idea right off the bat after the first year whether or not we're going to reduce it or not um Paris you can take it from here too go ahead jump in yeah M Cil to kind of go on what Paul was saying so the primary source of chlorides in the from at the wastewater treatment facility is primarily from water saw not the the newer softeners per se but older time based softeners um and just their pure inefficiency when it generation it's actually the Regeneration that causes the chloride levels in the Wastewater so that's what we're looking at right now is implementing a plan and know what Kate was mentioning to bias some time um this has been tried and true in inota and in neighboring states they have had positive results with this again this isn't the end all but keep in mind we we are below the limits we just don't want to exceed because s to speak we're in control of our destiny if you will versus if we start to exceed that time frame starts to shrink in a quick hurry so also I'd like to add May Council there's no guarantee on this just AR curiosity how the other programs that you've looked at how they ran it were it's just an exchange a straight up exchange for yep so one of the things that we would look at the team would sit down and kind of devise a plan we would look at probably the older parts of town did they determine whether or not you know if they have softeners how many softeners we would do in the course of a year um trying to primarily Target that time based that old inefficiency or inefficient software that does include commercial properties as well um looking at how we would synchronize what it be residential first to a commercial commercial and residential but just trying to maintain at least what we have right now as far as our chloride levels going forward I'm sorry keep going so is it is it like a a rebate I don't know $300 I mean have you thought what what what are you thinking correct so mayor and Council what would be would be a rebate toward the purchase of a new softening system rebate to be divined uh Paris I believe was it you've seen $500 I believe in the in Marsh in Marshall y well 500 what are those things cost so good question Paris did a little research for us before tonight so yeah so what we' be kind of looking at is installed um for a on demand water s softener is going to be around that $521,000 range installed uh you know obviously they if if if a less capable person has to hire a plumber that could influence that cost certainly the the Dy could do this you know um permit approved oh you got a lot of faith in people well I'm just saying there are you know there are some individuals that could probably tackle this um but uh one kind of the ballpark yeah and one thought mayor council would be to would be to have a a a pointed vendor to do this so it could be well organized to help lower the cost as well yeah correct plus that one vendor would allow you verification that it indeed went in this house not to their cabin up north or something correct right so the the only thing I don't like about this is a lot of the unknowns I guess um we're going to invest in something and hopefully we have faith in the people to be willing to spend even an extra $500 when the water rates are what they are um if we don't get I mean you have a selling point by saying we don't have to raise your rates as much if this works out that's again an f um would say I would say raise your but I mean we're talking about significant we're talking potentially 20 million you want to see R sky rocket well that's what I'm saying yeah get that sodium or chloride level May when with the newer softeners they'll see a huge reduction in the amount of salt they're buying it it it cuts it to a third I mean it's a huge reduction in the salt right correct it is a direct financial gain for them to do this but it is a direct out of pocket for them it's convincing people of this though too and coming from the city who they don't trust because our rates are what they are and it's it's just a negative image of government telling me what I have to do right um if we're going to make the investment which I think it's a good idea to try it um I think it's beneficial if people can get on board and that's the biggest question I have is the unknowns because so many people you they don't want to pay for nothing um regardless of what it is and I understand certain things right like I happen to the people that work in this building and it's nice that they have a decent building to work in um but most people don't care if they're in a moldy basement work and doing the job because they don't it's not them they don't care um by nature and people don't want to pay for anything I mean it's obviously we know there's a few frequent flyers that call and complain about everything about you know where a police officer may be at this current time and whatever else and where's my money going you know but I mean there's a lot of people that don't complain but there's also just it's just trying to convince people that it's worth investing in and I that's the biggest fear I have about this investment is convincing people to buy in I guess and is it going to be a good Roi in that aspect now granted it has to be with the cost right of the the 20 million 16 million whatever um plus sight is this not a complete gam I don't think it's a gamble resarch shown that typically you will bear bear fruit from from this program it's an inform it's an educated guess but it's a very educated guess I think and I'm I have faith that it would solve the problem at least for the time being until the npca decides to their numbers again push us over the limit because that's just what they'd like to do so may and Council we can you can also look at this it it's step by step as well we talked about three years we get a year of data we're going to start seeing something right and at that point the decision could be made I mean there are changes that can be made at that point as well right I just want I don't know I guess it's do we have do we have a maybe it was in here and I don't remember it but do we have a total number of uh Grant dollars that can be distributed that we don't know or we're going to apply for Grants I think it said something about mayor and Council right now we don't have any Grant funds okay and to apply for Grants as we've learned in the past there's no guarantee right the interesting thing is if if nobody signs up we still have the money at the end of the year right so right it's either if they want to make themselves successful they'll do the program they'll reduce their salt they've got a little upfront out of but if we've got an entire city that doesn't want to do it at the end of the year we still have all our money okay um I know a couple other cities have um found grants we will definitely look a lot of them require match a lot of them are very competitive ative and in in the current Financial positions of both state and federal right now we're probably we'll look and we'll definitely do our best but I think we have to move forward as if we don't have a grant right but I think that's where that education and that's if we're going to do this in 26 I think we got to start hitting newsletters and education and getting people lined up for January 1 where we can start to do this otherwise you're right it won't be successful if nobody knows about so well people got to look at their mail um I'm just wonder I just wonder too if if uh it's always a yeah you'll never live that one um I like the idea I just I don't I so with this program let's say um because we have really good water ever right it's like 13 grains from the plant or something softness or is that yes correct well the love of my life seems to think we have very hard water and wants softener um I'd love to get her an on demand one but then now I'm doubling it I mean if I do mine at home and then we put one in the other house that's just saying you want I got live with her Happ other some you I'm kidding she's amazing being somebody who hates rules and laws though do do we have to make an or is it it's a good question because we have to make an ordinance UPF front saying new installs have to be meet a certain standard I I I don't know that's a question for you because I I would think so too you would probably have to and I again I'm with you as far as hating new rules but that's uh that's I mean in order to avoid Calamity yeah and that's the whole purpose of laws right unfortunately is you have to do some of that stuff May Cil and looking at a lot of this stuff there have been other cities that have passed absolutely no softeners allowed um there are some that have just went with the On Demand versus the old time time base so uh I think you know looking down once we start to sit down and formalize this this plan a little bit more in conjunction with an ordinance probably won't be out of the question of some sort I mean we'll we'll vet that obviously but but I think one has to look at that option as well well my I mean I'm probably looking at having to replace my softener sometime soon not that it's all about me because we got a lot of people we got to deal with here but right mine my timeline is like it's what my house was built in 2000 so it's right around that time anyway where I'm going to have to replace it anyway so the timing is great for me but somebody that just bought a softener too you know or whatever had to replace it and I mean these these companies too they're outrageous I hate to say I'm in the business and I work HVAC works in conjunction with plumbers and some of these costs that I see that even we you know the company I work for charge in my opinion I don't know how people can afford a lot of this stuff and it's I mean you're in a business to make money my check's nice so I mean I get why they have to charge what they have to charge too right it's all the overhead and everything but your point though nobody's coming to take if you put a new software in nobody's coming to take it out this is only for new installations after a set a date that's right but I'm just thinking too I mean i' I'd be happy to upgrade mine before it's needed right um personally just because it's like hey that's one thing off the plate too I don't have to worry about for a while in theory I like the idea of the the program um I don't know what it's going to cost or what we figure out but um if it's just for one year what's the cost of that if we had a guess mayor council in our packet I think we we budgeted for $100,000 for three years each year for three years that's where the 300 came from okay yep and and again that's you know we get to the end of the year it it's still there it would just roll to the next year because it's in an Enterprise spot so right I sure would be nice if we had a sack and whack from 120 un sorry go ahead that's all I got I like it the chloride I am buying who wants the way in next anybody um I don't really have anything to add to after Joe's questions just I like the idea of the chloride reduction I think wanted do um you know I would like to see rates not raised so much but I'm not sure what we can do about it at this point um so that's really all I have at that's all I have to add sir yeah I'm kind of about the same thing I mean we don't ever want to have to increase our rates but realistically we have to keep we're we're always going to be having to increase them a little bit I think that's just the reality of of where we're at um and clearly um know parish is telling us that right now we're within the whole chloride but if we're getting close to dancing on that line we can't we really can't afford to sit back and say well we're just gonna kind of hold off and see I think we we don't have a choice at this point we have to do that like Kate said if it doesn't work out we're not necessarily losing that money it's still going to be there but I think this is a again trusting staff knowing what the research that they've done I think that they've done their due diligence and kind of gu with us on it's not ever fun raising our rates we're never going to like it and they're always going to ha it and whatever but we have to keep we have to keep our C functioning we have have to keep it and we have a state-ofthe-art thing we've gotten compliments on how well our plant is run in maintenance and all that I think we just need to keep going that I think the new plant smells like that's the joke are getting bad Kevin Kevin you need to eat or something you're getting angry go ahead Kevin we still need to talk about we'll come back to that but we still need to talk about item one or two right I mean it kind of Devils Back to the development of uh Northshore that's got to be discussed right we'll come back um the uh what do other cities currently doing have you talked to your peers and seeing what they having similar problems and yeah so actually the one the the one city that I did talk to was Marshall I have spoken to them specifically about this program um so they actually have have lime softening in place but to keep it to lower it even further they had they had to implement this program so at that that time though there was grant money available through the MPC for this and they were able to receive I think it was upwards of $240,000 now in our discussions with the MPC the other day uh Randy thoron who is the supervisor for the water regulatory portion of the NPC said that that Grant has dried up so but going back to the Marshall conversation um they have implemented they went course of the year they have seen results I would say say the the the the one city that actually seen the biggest results was actually madis and Wisconsin chloride levels vary depending upon what part of the state you are or whatever receiving body of water receives the Wastewater affluent so that's going to dictate the limit that you're imposed um ours is 354 we're currently at about 300 milligrams per leaders so I would say and like I said every other city that I've looked at or researched it it there seems to be a positive um uh good thing from it uh as far as the results are concerned so and and I agree with K public education even at this stage or whatever comes after tonight you started now whether it's blurbs on our website or um some whatever other means social media whatever it takes we've got to educate the public because they they're going to think skull duggery right off the bat you know when rates are going up and they'll be bitching and this and that but um education is key no matter what how do you get full compliance then if some people they're not going to tell you I a I don't have a softener but I do or B I have an old softener that's working but I don't have a softener how do you how do you do that stuff and what if 50% comply and go yep I'm all for it I'm let's gunhoo so now your your levels have dropped of chloride you still got these knucklehead you still have individuals that are not participating that aren't participating being honest with you and they're still generating product yeah so that's going to be the next discussion that I'm going to have with Scott do in for the city of Marshalls how did you exactly implement it to vet the process so you know that that softener that is going to be exchanged isn't a three-year-old softener but you just don't like it because of whatever reason so they they actually kind of came up with a plan as far as when um you know you came forward that citizen came forward with hey I want this new softener I think they actually mentioned that staff went to and verified that that that softener was uh it was essentially um Antiquated if you will as far as the capabilities but that's just I mean that's just one example so like I said previous I think it once approved we will certainly vet all viable options and making sure that you know this is successful right so I I would I would hope that seven years of newsletter uh blurps with chloride reduction in it has had some effect that could be maybe why we're staying around that 300 but then again I can't there's no data to support that either so you remember how many year it was two years plus on water meter Saga you know how long it took to implement to final conclusion do I ever how many homes are currently using City Water right now including old grow 220 1840 Dar 1840 units you ever take any Apartments using a commercial unit in their basement and servicing all the cubes in their apartment yeah I wouldn't think they would have a softener oh maybe like a softener right you have a damn industrial that would be an industrial situation here these guys the then they they'd be allowed to St to towards their new unit if they want to well they'll have to comply but yeah those commercial ones are quite a bit more money for what well kind of go back to what Paul was mentioning earlier so the city that we're talking about here they did 500 for residents then the I think they increased it to $1,000 for commercial which makes sense because it's a it's a substantially larger system you know if if you take the ones that are car washes here in town they're five times the size of a regular residential St have garage sales that maybe just a car was PR faults no I'm just kidding we only have three but well there is that caveat because the one thing that we're not going to be able to control on any of this chloride stuff is the wintertime car washing that is where the rock salt or the the the salt debris and the car is washed into the sanitary as well so all of the data that we'll compile over the course of this year will have that caveat because sure enough every year we see that spike in January um that high chloride really has nothing to do with the amount of softeners that we've had or have or their inability to treat it's primarily from that car wash uh you're metering that's coming out of the suicide well so that's another thing that we're going to start doing I've already restocked her lab uh we are going to be receiving two portable Samplers and we're going to set them geographically through town uh within the manual system hopefully in about four different quadrants primarily one of the areas that we are going to specifically Target is the Zion Parkway discharge into our system as well so we'll be able to tell if how much chloride specifically is coming from Zion Parkway nice control area isn't it what's that a nice control area yeah well and that's what we need to do I mean if we're going to have if we're going to acquire all this data and come back in another year and say hey this is successful we want to have all the data we possibly can for you guys to make a determination to keep moving forward with this so any discussion with o Grove to this point we have not this is very infant stages of this uh but we wanted to kind of bring it to your guys' attention see what you guys think of this on page 40 you say uh uh see not Su if this not is not successful City will begin planning for a new new construction uh water plant construction you also had it noted in one of the other slides what's the definition of construction uh construction of a new water plant um if you didn't have this chloride issue when would we have to start expanding or moving I guess we don't know until you add more units right more users yeah so the wastewater treatment plant the water treatment facility is in good shape we're right now we utilize about 14% of its total capacity but the Wastewater side of things that's that's actually in good shape too as far as our total equivalents and the capacities down there so you know the the biggest driver of the Wastewater Plant right now as far as anything is concerned I would say would be potentially the chlorides and like I said mentioned before right now we're somewhat in the driver's seat being able to control our destiny and how we want to keep that limit or keep our levels below the limit so but if we exceed then we get into the mpc's time frame of uh Expediting processes all right and then one area here too you said um the campus wouldn't be big enough to support a a new construction of a new or expansion of didn't I see that written here somewhere you you thought the campus wouldn't the foot so may Council we don't know that yet that that that question cannot be answered yet we're working on the answer to that question just fill um that's all I have that's all I have mayor I'm fully on board especially since I got the wonderful npca tour and I heard it firstand from my mes I I mean I I certainly don't mind spending my mayoral thing on the newsletter talking about talking about this repeal it just makes sense potential 300,000 which may not even be 300,000 that we have to spend in we know from other communities that it's worked when it comes to the sewer and water rates here I'm just gon to throw it out there yeah I get it I don't like it either but I look at my septic system and well system that home this is still probably a buy compared to that I can't put in a septic system for any less than 20 to $25,000 a well $10,000 heck I'm in $35,000 they probably got to replace it in 30 years so these rates sad as they are it's it's just the cost of doing business and I I don't like it but I'm I'm willing to take the heat on it I so TR I might regret saying that but is like forward forward forward I guess I'm just I know that's how we met Joe but I mean I look at the other cities here and I I mean yes we are on on the we one the top three or whatever else but we're not like way out of the ballpark it's like you know I I I keep hearing for people we're paying two we're paying two three times more than surrounding cities this doesn't bear that all this should be public knowledge too this should be able to public conce it so I would agree and maybe qualm some of that stuff you'll never please everybody but correct numbers don't lie we go on to Arizona too and their rates are insane for electricity and water I can't believe they can even afford that I go ahead go ahead Darcy I'm sorry we had the earlier conversation about the tip and I just want to go back to that's the difference between one and two is two lowers those you know expected rates because we have 120 equivalent units or more coming onto our system and billing out and paying for some of those uh things uh out there a big another big thing is the whack and Sack that's going to help fund that the road in the water and the sewer that needs to go in there so um that's just all within your rats we're not asking you to um set these rates you know we got to get through budgets we'll keep W looking at that but we want you to know that this might be where it goes um if anything major changes and the last time I think everybody was surprised P our rate increase which was a lot higher than this we want to start educating people that this just want to say one more thing I want to thank all of you Kate Paul Parish darthy because I found this information very helpful I truly did so it it it's it's it's like you say there's some gray but it's pretty black and white at the same time I appreciate that so if you look farther in there I want to say do want to say that uh Public Works did a really good job of laying out all the different projects throughout the city there's a sheet there that shows the road water you know Road storm water water sewer projects and then there's other things that they started talking about one of them is the media that's um we didn't understand the cost of that media of how to dispose of it that's you know $800,000 that's a lot that we didn't we had a price in there for it but it was lot well then M didn't make that clear to you H so but when I see this when I see this forecasted 30 40 years forward like youve got in here that's reassuring to me it truly is you're you're you're doing you're doing your due diligence and that's I I appreciate it well that's the unfortunate truth too because you will get residents pissed off just like we were about these raises regardless and knowing that if we don't listen to Darcy again you're going to be at a what was it 4585 or something crazy I don't remember what the hell it was but it was too much on the colored paper I'll printed up pretty make you feel better I None of the Pretty Paper out but you explained it very well too as far as the the potential cost to have to add on to 15 or was 16 to 20 again it's like you're basically buying the whole thing all over again so what the hell you going to do with that well in these calculations understand there's um I think I have 3 years that we're selling bonds especially if you have to do any major anything major to the water plant but the year that we do Highway 47 we're going to have to sell bonds the year that there's another year that we are going to have to sell bonds to fund this stuff we're just not going to have the cash flow so that then generates that we have to pay principal we have to pay interest um I did just see something interesting that today that they may take our bonds and make them uh not tax exempt that's gonna that's going to hurt us that 17 billion Surplus is gone now huh they have been tax exempt for I think I think they said over 100 years and they are looking at that's a way to generate some moreone and an article from the league of Minnesota City said that's going to put some small cities they're not going to be able to sell a bond that's Federal that was coming from the federal sorry something should anybody reconsider their Tiff we'll go I'll give to that in a second yeah I mean maybe that right into this does anybody sorry I'm having a hard time sitting still no I I mean we're pretty much there I mean you need more Direction pretty much no Dar you'll see more of this as we walk through the budget absolutely you know and and stuff but I did not want to surprise you at the end of the year and like oh okay we gota do and I'm okay if somebody up here says that they want to change their opinion on the earlier the time to speak right now but I'm still where I'm at so I'm where I'm at if that Ro wasn't 1.1 million I would I would flip over but I mean understandable we can always change it in 2027 I mean if if the $3 million on on set item three that's a maybe I mean we went and ask for the state for some money we might not get our number pulled for that very true I mean that's just a maybe the Hiller step we don't know all the 20 new single house 20 is not hard to hit where we at now 13 Dy 24 15 so that's P miss too though tough year so mayor council I actually pulled the last three so in 2022 we had 31 in 23 we had 10 and in 24 we had 26 so we're averaging about 22 a year so that's that also comes back to the point do we have anything for sale any lots for sale for people to build on that's thing there's one right behind Subway I was sorry I mean for the for these 20 houses to be built got to be built somewhere and not um mayor council so we are highly dependent on the Bluffs to put their final pla in um otherwise we have us couple Lots here and there so it is it is becoming narrow 20 the 20s are maybe as well then I'd say yep realistically that Bluffs is huge if that can finally get going but the mayor C so the BL off is even considering phasing it they're not going to that will be everybody does right it it'll start in a much smaller phase so the the 20 was felt very realistic um especially after reviewing the last three years well when we reduced them we had a goal what was that 16 or something homes per something like that 10 was it only 10 that's higher well I'm I'm going to stick where I i' I'd rather foro a Northshore for now it looks like a $3 per thousand from 582 or no more like $7 $7 a pop at least for a th000 gallons and I I think the citizens are better suited if we if we hold our breath a little longer so I'm I'm still wearing at put some card readers on the toilets at the park I got to shut up up sorry me too anybody got anybody else got any at this point staff no nothing further okay sorry I prolong I don't need any motion to adjourn meeting work session adjourned at 8:33 thank you everyone that was a lot