and with that it is 5:30 I will call the meeting to order um let's see up first we have the 10year draft Staffing plan thank you mayor and Council so this is kind of our first step towards multiple I would say subjects on um our 10 year Staffing plan going from 5 years to 10 years which I think is pretty significant when you think about how life can change as the span not just five years but 10 so just wanted to outline a a process for you we along with the department heads up with this draft and again really emphasizing that that we want to have a conversation with the Council on this uh we reviewed it with all of our full-time staff and so tonight we're presenting you uh with our thoughts uh looking forward to hearing your what you like what you don't like Etc but we're presenting this in the form of like this is what's on the menu we'll tell you kind of what it costs as far as impact we'll have we have cost lines in the rear this as you may have seen But if there are key components of this that you were like I like to see that moved or I don't agree with that we don't want to spend the time in creating a big financial analysis on a plan that you're struggling with that doesn't mean that you won't have any kind of 11th Hour changes but if there are big big crumbs that we want to get off the table or make big adjustments we can do that hopefully in these next couple of sessions and then eventually we'll get to the point where we take this along with you know half a dozen other pieces public infrastructure streets uh uh equipment Etc and and make one large 10year financial plan um so just kind of to give you an idea of how we built this together we call this path path to position approval but year 6 to 10 so think about you know years 20 uh 33 through like 2027 it's a largely conceptual idea we're not going to have a lot of finely tune justification Based on data we'll have ideas based on population or p cohort um kind of what service models look like anticipated needs but I would say that year six to 10 is largely subjective and that when we get to you know that year 3 to five or year 1 to two that's when we want those kind of clamps and those walls to kind of narrow in on the discussion and say well we thought this might have been a need 10 years ago but as we get closer we could push that back or hey this concept is becoming an increasingly larger Sur us need we might want to move that up and so that's where you see that next step year 5 to three we transition from Concepts to some clear milestones and justification systems uh we need time to go through an enhanced review uh during that financial plan but we're kind of sitting in the groundwork where you know this is probably going to happen and that year 1 to two that's where some really heavy vetting goes on with the council uh we do an organizational scan does this still fit in the way that we thought it was going to and we start looking looking at how is this going to impact uh the budget process and then that budget year is kind of year zero as we've gone through this kind of full path to position approval it's finally in the budget um you've approved the budget and then as a staff we take care of the appointment process so starting off with the administration so I call this the city clerk's office um identify that information technology position uh so we largely use Marco technology for that but as you probably imagine just by looking at our world and just what we've talked about just even recently with our upgrades to our financial system software and Building Inspections uh there's going to be continue to be a need on the software side but also kind of the day-to-day help this help that stuff um and then just with new software implementation and integration uh just having an on on-site personel again this is in that 6 to 10 year range so it's kind of conceptual um but I think can I'll maybe just lean on Vicky or Lynn anecdotally if you have uh some stories you want to share about this need and how it presents itself to you on a day-to-day basis I think one of the things just has to do with just keeping up with the technology um also we think about security think about the times you hear on the news about places that have been compromised and just knowing like do we have the best security in place we we rely a lot on Marco but then really specific to us like for example we rely on them for help desk items um they don't always know exactly what we do sometimes it takes them a little bit longer to for us to explain what the issue is where it would be really nice to have somebody who's on site we can tell them exactly this is the issue we're seeing and I think that the response time would be much much faster at least in my experience when we've had an on-site help desk at the organizations I've worked for in the past and just if you know BR so VI is a little over this population right now do you know do they have an IT person do you know what [Laughter] population okay good that question um do you know at what about population they took an IT person on it was last March oh last March okay what are they now 10 5 11 like around that 108 okay uh then moving forward to Community Development Aon you can pop in here if I miss anything but again a lot of these pieces are largely conceptual that idea of as we grow with planting and development we'll have an increased need for uh permit support um so think of like Natalie Meyer's position as kind of roughly half of our time has spent towards that uh as we continue to grow you can imagine that our volume is going to increase and so it's a matter as we draw closer we're going to be able to right size that but if we're you know creating Concepts uh that would be an opportunity and then uh building inspector so we kind of put a milestone in there at 200 plus new home permits as you know we have other permits that folks do so think of uh decks roofs um siding Etc basement finishes um but based on know the workload that uh Nick and Brian are handling now and kind of our past practices you feel like that 200 homes um we probably around the point where we need to add a third building inspector um you can see here each new home permit requires 18 inspections so if you can think about the amount of workload so 200 * 18 is like a lot 33% so I'm thinking about that and then finally um a planner as we kind of grow and if you think about you know if you want to compare Victoria has a community development director and two city planners um but it's kind of all the kind of day-to-day stuff as we grow and the projects become larger you think about some of the programs that Ain is administrating like edth anward or it's kind of like Grant R those types of things um or just kind of daytoday uh what's the zoning on my property work and I put my fence uh that kind of stuff is really important because it's transactional with that Resident at that time but it can also be time consuming and thinking about as we grow of working on a large preliminary PL or economic development project or other structural pieces to the zoning ordinance you know that's where you're going to want to keep your more experienced staff uh uh dedicated rather than looking at you know a half a dozen permits uh throughout the day and again 2032 that's 9 years from now um so you think about what Carver looks like we're going to have to put more of those pieces together at that time to like rightsize that Aon any perspectives that you want to hit on that I think that was a good overview uh finance department kind of similar uh model again this is forecasting out this is largely conceptual um just kind of as you chart out kind of we've grown in the past 10 years and the volume of work that has increased to to that point um looking at increased workload Capital assets reporting Etc everything that goes into that utility billing support as we get more customers and customer service calls uh we'll need to develop additional Milestones a lot of that whether it's this position or other positions that we're talking about um those Milestones are going to be important if you have Milestones that You' like to have considered um that would be important for us to note uh Public Safety so kind of bifurcated this into two areas uh first focused on Sheriff's Office coverage uh looking at a model on what how the Sheriff's Office provides service right now uh roughly looking at about one Deputy per 2500 in population I would offer that based on our strategic plan that there's some additional Milestones that we can develop related to call response time uh related to community interactions that you want to have um but at least this provides uh some type of Baseline for some type of uh justification system uh and then looking at the fire department um eventually developing into a fire chief again conceptual you look at some of the trends here where a lot of our neighbors throughout the county have developed a full-time Fire Chief and it's frankly a a nationwide kind of trend of creating what amounts to be a full-time position that is largely served by a part-time position and we talked about this a number of years ago the kind of the origins of community fire departments was they started out as a club and kind of filling a community need and over the last several decades they have Devol or not evolved they've evolved into a professional organization that follows all the same rules and protocols that our full-time staff would we uh I would say as a cities in general haven't quite caught up to that for fire departments because it's costly I mean it's you think about one of your major departments operating with a part-time staff uh cities Haven gotten used to that from a budget perspective but there's a I would say the larger cities in the metropolitan area have already blown by this Fire Chief model and already moving to a full-time Staffing model the City of Prior Lake I think just this year uh has moved to totally full-time firefighters you'll see that you know transitioning to full-time in Carver seems like 20 30 years from now but as we grow and as these needs develop I think you might find yourself in positions or in a position where you might see like the cities that you see listed here develop into kind of a more of a regional model because there's some success with that at least with the sheriff's office but those things sometimes take not just years but decades to to develop so I'm just going to check in real quick here with questions so on the deputy ke um does that kind of information help the county in planning headcount I know they have a hard time recruiting and challenges there um is it helpful to provide them this kind of forecasting information do we think that might help us from getting deputies assigned to us and do other cities provide that to them I don't know the latter uh the first part is I've you know developed this in connection with Commander will and so he knows this and then I've talked to sheriff camaron about this and um they have kind of this draft form but you know we're going to wait till it materializes and uh affirm by the council and whatever form it takes but to your the simple answer to your question is yes it is helpful as they kind of ramp up and understand what they'll need for folks okay um yeah okay good R to talking about the fire department um did do we have like an idea of when we would start implementing more of a d a Duty Crew model I know we had a we tried it last summer but they do they I would say they do Duty crws um on a somewhat frequent basis depending upon the needs in the community and kind of the timing um so I would say that we're already kind of leaning into that okay um based on the okay so that's not an additional budget line if we're already implementing no what you're really doing is you're just um it just affects the hourly pay you're taking this group of let's say five firefighters and they're going to be at the station um cleaning or working on what have you and then if there's a call they'll all sometimes it's like a duty crew is and they'll just stay at home and they're just going to be that group first group of five that gets out there there's a couple of different models but it's not a you know unless you're servicing at like 24 seven or an amplified coverage rate it's not going to be cost prohibitive based on what we're doing today okay thank you uh Public Services Department uh we're trying to follow a rule of thumb uh that want Public Services Tech uh per 1,000 population uh and I would say offer that there are no you know there's not like a some Professional Organization that's recommending this you know a lot of this is based on our experience as well and how we provide service today um and I would offer that you know we we'll look to our peers we'll look to neighboring cities but as we've talked about every city has a different story and so you know whether or not they have a certain type of utility or an abundance of Parkland um that'll dictate whether they have contracted Sheriff whether they have uh their own Police Department that largely dictates where they're at and so um I think that having that neighborly reper information can be a guide But ultimately I think the decision rest with the council where do you want to Target that service what do you think the need is how much do you want to invest versus the tax impact uh when we looked at this uh we thought about we can service our community with the six public service is techs but we've found based on when we've hired them it kind of coincides with an increase of a thousand in population and that's why we're uh frankly planning for an additional Public Services Tech in 2024 um and I think you can anecdotally from like the uh seasonal stuff we've added positions and kind of changed our practices and and for me um I can see the difference in kind of how the parks and like our landscape the are being maintained uh not that it was being done poorly but I just think there's an additional level of uh effort not effort but attention that's being done in those places because we have the people power to to get at that because that was identified by the counil as a need when J the JCP Corridor was developed is are we going to have the folks in place to maintain this investment um and then the last piece uh a transition similar to the information technology of we have contract custodial Services um at some point based on an analysis and Milestones uh we think that we could provide probably a a more localized service by having a building maintenance position so it's not just a custodial but if there's an event going down in the uh Village Hall Room uh right now it's kind of a mix of Public Services Texs and uh our custodial contract and sometimes it's just folks from the office can of P pulling chairs together and so like even though the ladder sounds like it's you know the team is going in you know for the lying share of like our positions you're not like you're investing in our abilities to do other things rather than set up tables and chairs and so you're not getting uh the best uh level of return on your dollar if you're having folks do some other things that just in the end don't make sense and so it'll be our job to kind of come up with the reasons why it makes sense as we move out of that conceptual phase BR back um so if you're talking about about every thousand though so we have 24 26 and then 27 if we add that in I we haven't I realized they have a kind of a half Duty there for being Building Maintenance and Tech but that's not a that's not a thousand jump for that one yeah I'm treating that as a separate position because it would be we look at that as a full-time facilities maintenance they'd be housed as in the Public Services Department um we'd want them hopefully to be able to plow snow but we at the point that we would hire that position we think that building maintenance so like think of like painting filter changes that's a custodial that's a full-time position in in of of itself they're not going to be doing mowing the Lawns and Parks Etc it's um like example like if we had a plumbing problem in one of the community shelters like we had over the weekend like that' be the person that would take that on uh and then kind of a in addition to before we come into the chat is there anything I miss related to the public services text no that was a good overview uh then the utility superintendent position a little background on this so we uh prior to 2013 we had two separate departments uh Public Works and uh Public Utilities Public Utilities was down here in uh what we affectionally call the Pu building uh and then Public Works was up on Jonathan Carver Parkway that those two departments were combined or merged into one uh we filled the Public Services director position which at that time was Brian skope uh but as a part of that reor reorganization uh Paul Schultz moved into the public service the superintendent but we uh left the utilities position vacant Brian had a robust background in utilities and thought that that would be a more efficient way to um operate that department moving forward uh we are proposing um starting relatively so we have it 2024 I think there's a narrative that started even sooner um to create a utility superintendent position uh to really kind of um manage and Lead our utility operation on a day-to-day basis uh we RI heavily on Bolton and M to to handle a lot of that Chad is involved with that but again uh the more Chad is involved with day-to-day operations the less he's involved in the types of things that you would want him to be involved with again it's not a this or that it's a both and but it's a matter of kind of balancing that ratio in a way that you think would be successful uh we do think that this is in alignment with our strategic plan or the council strategic plan uh of you know making sure that we have zero or as few as possible is it zero or one service disruption one service disruption or less a year less than one less than one we're not aiming for one we're not aiming for one aiming for none yes um and then to make sure that we don't have any projects that you know we install a 12in pipe and then all of a sudden five years later we realize that we needed a 20 24 in pipe um and I think next to public safety like a service that you know residents rely on on a day and day basis is utilities and so we think this fills a need to to Really develop and put resources into utilities management leadership uh on a day-to-day basis when we look at that when at them plowing snow and doing those sort of things also I would say it's I would say plowing snow I would say plowing snow as needed based on Chad's Direction when you say other things um just other General Public Works activities or do you I mean what kind of percentage of time do you think is just going to be utilities compared to anything else in the Public Services Department because the Public Services General does run the gamut of things right no he so Paul's position doesn't do anything in utilities but but beyond that prob it works I mean he'll plow can jump on a mower if we need right yeah I mean they would be responsible for doing kind of anything that apartment needs I would say that' be the case for frankly any one of employees um I would say I would say probably 90 10 um operating utilities if you know we need someone to plow snow or we need someone to do whatever um that's within the kind of other D other services as um requested um you know Chad and I just had a conversation about this last week and I think we're in agreement that you know the on a position like this the more that we try to widen out and say like we want you to have this robust utilties background but we also want you to be a very experienced snowla driver we reduce our Canada at pool exponentially and so uh I'd rather at least my editorial is I'd rather start and I think Chad is on the same page I'd rather start with making sure they have all the skills and abilities that we need for utilities and if they can plow snow that's a bonus um but that's a that's a skill that over time uh can be taught and so uh they might not be able to drive one of the big trucks but we could probably put them in one of our spaer machines or vehicles and they could help with you know parking lot no removal might didn't all the right notes on that Chad yes uh and then lastly uh kind of the city manager area uh we have uh two interns that we're looking at uh eventually evolving uh into full-time positions uh kind of think of college level intern um the communications would develop into a Communications specialist later on in the plan and then the Community Development uh intern would develop into that city planner position that we talked about in the couple of slides ago uh and then finally uh management analysts will think of that kind that's probably the first step into developing a deputy city manager kind of again that's 10 years from now I don't know what the world looks like 10 years from now uh but if you're thinking about kind of how a city develops that kind of seems to follow that trend line uh but we'd have to get a lot closer um to that 2033 Mark to kind of develop something that would seem right for Carver at that time and so um that's kind of the balance of the plan um we're hoping you know we're not expecting this to be kind of right on but we think it's a uh a collection of of ideas and needs understanding that that jump from 5 to 10 years can seem kind of scary because at least for me it can because um I feel like from a city perspective we deal with things that are happening now and and we make a lot of plans for things that are happening maybe 1 to three years from now and sometimes 5 years seems like oh that's an eternity but 10 years is even longer and if you think about like the changes that could happen you know uh all of us could be out of our roles related to this and so you're really looking out further so I I say all that think thinking like if you have as we get further out um I would try to give it a little bit of patience if you think that there's something like this doesn't fit it needs to be moved you know we want that feedback we want all your feedback frankly uh but we're going to have less of a narrative for the things that are at the bottom of the list than we do at the top if that makes any sense so with that uh leave it open uh to the council for feedback questions um things that you observe questions you have adjustments that you'd like to see before we take this through a financial analysis since the utility superintendent something you're looking at doing in 23 is there anything you need from us now so uh I would just I would need the council's preliminary support to you know do a budget amendment to the uh uh water and sanitary sewer funds um I don't need a motion I just we would bring to you a budget amendment at some point in the F near future okay so you have my official head now uh one question on the internship program that $25,000 is that for the intern or just the cost of the program for the so the internship I mean if we intend to pay the intern it's I think it's what do we have like4 or $15 an hour um the the days of at least the kind of the circles that I'm in and the um cities that I'm aware of the days of kind of getting free interns as part of their program are over and maybe there are other places that have that but um way back in the stolen age like 25 years ago I got I got $10 an hour from the city of Oakdale me too from the city so um okay good so you know thinking thinking about that you know um a lot of times if you're going to you're going to find a a call someone in a program or a master's program The Internship is usually probably their only source of income if they're working during the day and then going to school at the same time um so we're I think assuming like a three-day work week or a 4 day work week but you know one we just talked about this today as well we want the these internships um and this is just kind of based on my experience as well to be all encompassing so we don't look at it as just like the planning and public admin intern just to be working with Aaron and I we'd set them up front and have them answer calls and go on inspections with Brian and Nick and take a snow ride and do projects and public services and a ride along with the sheriff's office that they'd get that whole uh City experience and then have projects that specialize in the area that we're denoting here have we nurtured any interns into staff we haven't we it's been about feel very Minnesota when they said about there or Canadian um but it's been about five years um since we've had interns um I had two in a previous uh position and uh they are both City administrators so we've had some success just not here as far as getting them to a public administration job I think for the inter oh sorry oh okay for the interns to I'd rather see them paid than thinking I'd rather have somebody who is invested and it doesn't get maybe picked up by somebody else because they're paying and we're not so we're at the bottom of the barrel um it's a long I mean it's a little ways out but I guess for me having some familiarity with what the rest of the city does but I'd almost rather see those interns hone in on what we're hiring them to do I mean the department that they should be or intend to be working with rather than kind of pushing them off all around especially if we want them to move into that some type of position here that would just be my view on inter duties to come down the line any other comments not on the intern yeah um the market analyst or management analyst that seems like a strange term to me is this meant to be the deputy city manager position I mean in it but there's like a so like the evolution of that position is management analyst assistant to the city manager Deputy city manager city manager so there's four tiers okay and management analyst is like the you know someone probably fresh out of grad school I mean you could you know I could have put assistant to the city manager but it gets real jargony as it relates to like city managers and so I just have like management analyst is kind of someone that wants to get into that field uh it's probably going to be their first position out of school um you know it' be um you know they traditionally work really heavy and Human Resources Information Technology um kind of inner Department projects Etc so that's why it's like when you think of that it seems kind of um weird to think about at least for me in in that way but um like Victoria has it you know that's where like every city has its own story Victoria is operating right now with two Deputy city managers and so um you know I I'm not extremely familiar with how Victoria runs and what their needs are the example just shown that every City's going to do something just a little bit different I don't have a problem with moving into that mod just the word management analyst says something different to me when I read the word analyst so okay um I want to make a couple comments on the plan and then I'll ask my final question so one I love that you put in that path to the position approval I think that's really important to set expect ation not just for us the council but for staff as well right because not everybody's going to be here in 10 years when we're relooking at this thing going what we thinking like right so I really love that you set that expectation up front um I um really appreciate you doing some benchmarking along the way in these roles and kind of saying what do other cities do what size did they add these roles um so that was helpful for me as I went through the plan um I love the idea of utilizing interns I also Advocate that they'd be paid I don't know anybody who is free interns anymore um especially if you are it's a recruiting tool right and it's not just that we're giving the benefit to the community right so it's a recruiting tool so it should be paid um and I would I guess I would think encourage you guys to think about other internship opportunities in other areas I don't know how possible that is I think the ones you've identified up front the Community Development and Communications are a good place to start but I don't know if we want to think about Finance or other areas I would encourage us to think about that um and then kind of finally oh and then Super nitpicky your second intern is on 27 in your slide and in 26 in the plan you can fix that later um okay so then kind of my you know look at this plan and this is two head count a year with about a th residents population growing every two years that's what this looks like to me from a high level perspective so if we were to look back in time does that sound about right on how we've been growing staff over the last several years you may not know this information right now but I guess that would be kind of the tummy cheuck I might do because that makes I mean this is okay but if we kind of feel like that's about the pace we were adding staff through the past couple of years of growth yeah I'd have to check into that this feel this my first response to that is this is faster than that and we and there was a um and I take no editorial opinion on this but there was a perception when I first started here that we were overbuilt as a staff and that largely I think was related to people wanting there was it was narrative around city hall and that like we don't have a staffing study and we have these many employees and so like I say that because then as a result I think that we um at least in like my view was like it was going to be not representative of the council but we were just going to stay away from that because it was like it was kind of like folks and how they think about water it's like we are we're overstaffed I don't think that wor out I don't feel like we've ever been overstaffed um but that's the narrative is that is that familiar yeah yeah I I totally get it but I guess just if we could kind of think about it and just see if that kind of yeah we can do like a could add a slide on just a history of adding positions yeah okay that's it P for me yeah I like that idea too of that history on positions that have been added like as far as you know typically how many a year compared to population growth um I I like the summary plan as well and I guess I have like two questions is would we as we grow in with other areas that we can measure such as population but then with head count for FTE do we rely more on Consultants or less I would think more because it doesn't seem like any of this would take work away or alleviate the work that we're asking them to do and that we pay them to do yeah I would say it depends on the situation and the position so for like lenn's position as Finance director I would say we've relied on Consultants L we used to have a monthly meeting with Steve McDonald at ABDO you know we I think it was you know close to $500 a month you know just for that kind of unique service um like in like when you talk about information Technologies and building maintenance I would say yes um but you know I would say the balance of these positions um when you talk about adding a public services Tech or um communic communication specialist is going to have some um uh impact to Contracting Services but okay a lot of these are are probably going to be the majority of them are um helping the additional or the existing team with uh workload um they'll be there'll be pieces um as you as we get into specifics where Contracting Services will get less I would offer that as we get larger as a whole contracted Services should come down with the exception of maybe like the City attorney and what projects we have from an interest perspective right but as day-to-day operations right I mean you just as you're um there are some things that you're always going to contract out for if you do like the Sixth Street West project you're not going to have an engineering team on hand that can develop plans and specs like that um would be an example okay all right two other things talks about 2009 for information technology position um I'd want to keep an eye on when our contract is up for what we have right now Mar when that is if it's like every two it's August 2024 yeah so just kind of I'm on Commit the original one was five and then we renewed for three keeping this in mind to some exent you know that's a good example like some of these positions whether it's information technology or just you know even looking at ly's position you don't really you don't realize what you're not doing until you have somebody with the experience and education to like look at the things that are maybe hiding in plain sight and so especially for information technology you know I would you know Marco's not doing a bad job but they're doing exactly what we tell them to do but if you had somebody here they would look for things that will put you in a better position and you can't ask for that but your scope gets so large if you ask a consultant hey give us a total like um analysis from A to Z on our entire organization and tell us everything that we could do I mean that becomes cost prohibitive and just the exercise um my other question is are there and I can like think of two or three are there positions that didn't make it on the list so I would think like a park and wck or you know we're not a city that has municipality liquor stores or but are there other things that were thought of or like in discussions or like oh no we wouldn't hire that because we don't have a public serving po uh I mean there isn't anything there isn't something that's not on this list that was talked about everything every idea that someone had is on this list somewhere um there are yeah there are we didn't contemplate a Parks and Rec position just because of our relationship with chasa we didn't um contemplate a a full-time fire department because we just didn't get there and the same goes for like util um what am I thinking of what liquor stores and um not enter are they Enterprise m liquor misly run like utilities like Chas electric or liquor um we didn't contemplate any of that because that's not on our current scope of service same as uh having our own Police Department we didn't contemplate hiring a police chief and police officers Etc because right now we're focused on the model of Contracting with the sheriff's office but you know any one of those pieces if you said hey you should plan for X because we want to get into that I mean at it was close to 10 years ago the city did contemplate starting a municipal liquor operation and decided not to do it um there's a window on if you're over a certain size city you can't do it any more I think it might be 5,000 um but I'm not sure about that I just thought of one too because I know there's a city that has a tree expert so it's that type of stuff yeah and we have positions like Nick Jorgenson is our tree inspector so that's part of his position we should start calling a tree expert I think insector the weed something every every city mayor is like the weed yes you are unofficially tell you from the number of times we talked about the roundabout he would tell you that I take particularly interested never talk about that as far as you know then you all know how I feel about weeds um you good yes okay um let's see I think this is great um oh I'm no thumbs down on weed I know wasn't sure knew that um I I think that this is great um it really helps to see that slide and to see it all um you know I think just anecdotally what I've heard from some caror County Mayors is with all their growth they hadn't been adding positions so they take a look back and they're really really short in staff and key areas so I think having this plan as scary as potentially it can be I think it's good to see it all down on paper and then kind of keeping in mind like what is in the scope of what we will be here for um I think the only other feedback I had is I guess question you said that the internships will kind of roll into positions could roll into positions but they won't go away if were to hire an intern we would still keep the internship positions we can okay we haven't we didn't get into that level specificity okay um and I'm okay with paying for the internship I think when kids are getting what they're being paid at Casey's and at quick trip I think it makes a lot of sense for us to pay and then that's then it treats it a little bit more like a job and they're not asking for every third week off so um that's it for me thank you can I ask one more question you may since we were talking about it in a little more detail of that $100,000 how much do we pay Marco a year that is work that could be done by somebody in it internally that's hard to quantify I mean I get that but how much do we pay Marco about 4,000 a month roughly that's just for manage services so taking the 4,000 a month that we spend for maret does that move the priority up for it because that is a real return on having that person here the only thing I'll say about that is I mean they're offering us like you know monitoring and um storage yeah so I'm not sure how an IT person coming in would be offer the kind of services and security um they're sending us you know like fishing you know traps and different things like that so I understand that you know the service that AWS provides for cloud storage would be a pretty small percentage of that but just curious um it seems you know we're more and more likely to be a victim of some kind of uh it attack and you're right Marco does what we asked them to do we don't have anyone actively kind of working on our behalf from the inside out so 2029 just seems like a far away uh Target for me but that's all right anything else they have the counil support in going after that utility superintendent position R away mhm yes yes look like you got five head knots right thank you all right thank you um all right outdoor Sidewalk Cafe ordinance review I was looking okay are we ready to discuss outdoor sidewalk cafes looking forward to this evening so as I had indicated in the council memo I gave an overview of some of the things that we did I'm not going to go through the list here because I'm going to go through each of the sections of the ordinance and identify some of the things that we did but overall we took the whole thing and we reorganized it and put it in a format that just flowed better and made more sense at the same time adding content clarifying content and then deleting some things that we just felt were not relevant anymore but I'll encourage you to ask questions at any time as we go through this as well so the first thing is taking a look at moving it from the zoning section of our um city code and putting it into chapter 10 businesses by adding a new article n called outdoor Sidewalk Cafe and also by doing that it require because there's a change in the city's zoning ordinance we have to have a public hearing that would happen at the Planning Commission prior to it coming back to the council for final approval so I'll get into that a little bit more at the end as well but just keep that in mind that that has to happen uh the first thing that we wanted to do was really take a look at our definition of the outdoor Sidewalk Cafe you may recognize the picture there it is of the outdoor Sidewalk Cafe that we have here outside of Harvey's Bar and Grill and we wanted to add the definition of it included one or more tables and chairs and then also those customers were being served those Beverages and food at the same time uh because we felt that the old definition really was not very clear and it caused some confusion with that so this excludes like a park like a bench that isn't an outdoor Cafe correct it includes that's why we put in the one or more tables and chairs you are correct good example like Charlie Mack has a table and chairs of their Salon okay they're not being served food there sit out there we think that that applied okay correct good clarification yeah we l so just because of the confusion that caused in the past we're trying to clear some of that up so and then we wanted to just add a purpose uh it makes sense to allow eligible businesses to use this outdoor space as long as they meet the requirements they would be subject to the items that are listed in the ordinance and we will get into those and talk through those as we go through each of those sections uh they do need to have a license there is one required also at the same time they cannot transfer it to someone else so in the situation of even Harvey's when that was sold it wasn't necessarily an automatic transfer we needed to start with the process and make sure that everything was met and it's under the new ownership's name I have a question about this part um when say it's not assignable so if you let's say we'll just keep using haries as our as our um posters out here so if Harvey sells in July and they paid for this permit that lasts from October orpr October 31st so it sells in July now the new person who comes in has to reapply for the same in the same calendar year we are seeing that in the ordinance that it's not transferable or assignable so yes they would have to fill out the application and then submit their own insurance that's part of you'll see as we get into the requirements they'll have to submit their own insurance and they have to meet all of the requirements for the application these are pretty cheap I mean what's the $25 when we do liquor licenses and things like that if it changes hand we PR rate after that don't we yes we do we do pro pro rate by the month okay correct but there isn't another there's no additional Fe do this besides that 25 after adding them on your insurance okay okay thanks so when it comes to the actual application itself I highlighted the yellow things that were really some changes the other things were in the original ordinance things like you know the fee that we just talked about the second one there we had again when we had questions about this we thought that there was some confusion here so we really tried to Define exactly what we meant by this and we are going to ask for a scale diagram showing the exact layout of the tables and chairs along with the proposed furniture and then the method of segregation if required by section 10- 36611 and you will see when we get there that has to do with if alcohol is being served so that is the only time that we are asking for a method of segregation and that has been a change as well uh the insurance requirements there and the hold Harless agreement were always part of the application or part of the ordinance as well uh the last one there the updated uh sack determination letter that was not in the previous ordinance but it was also but it was on the application form so people were still required to sign that we just added it to the actual ordinance and the other thing that we also wanted to clarify was if additional seating came about during the time frame of the existing Cafe that they would have to revisit that in other words they can't just add square footage and add tables and chairs to make it larger without going through this process so we wanted to make that very clear any other questions on that section uh the license review we really in so many words we talked there is like some references to this vaguely but we really wanted to Define uh when we get this application the process that we're going to go through to actually approve this and then um under the conditions we added what I'm going to call like a disclaimer here the city clerk May Place conditions on a license as may be needed to further the intent of this article and to protect the public sidewalk and Public Safety which would cover something that maybe we didn't think of but this would still allow us to regulate that so any questions on either of those um also in the existing license it gave reference to the fact when they could only have their furniture out in the sidewalk cafe and we wanted to just clarify it's actually April 1 to October 31st and then an eligible business must obtain a new license each year just because they had one this summer doesn't mean they can automatically get one next year they would have to reapply again submit the new insurance and the sac determination make sure nothing is changed so if nothing has change why would we need them help me understand why we would want them to fill out an additional permit if the no different than the year before and we're charging the money and taking staff time for something that's exactly the same I think part of it just we we need to have their new insurance updated they're signing a new agreement and then I think it's an opportunity even though you will see later on we put in there that City staff has the right to inspect at any time I think it's a good check to make sure are they still doing what they say they're doing I don't knowbody feels about and so the can't keep their stuff on the sidewalk from November 1 through March 30th right okay s i I know yeah again that's what the Yeah so that's what we're seeing here that's what we're saying here is that it can only a Sidewalk Cafe can only exist during that time correct and just to add a little bit in here something that we deleted it talked about the specific type of furniture that has to be durable we said we don't really feel that that's relevant so that's one of the things that we just got rid of so and we tried to that's a good note really focus on you know the heart of was that in the old one that yes yeah so just things like that that we thought let's we're reviewing this we're reorganizing let's focus on what we want them to do and we didn't feel as the council feels differently but we took that one out so just reiterating what Joy asked about the furniture can't be stored like pushed up against the window and covered with a taret it absolutely has to be taken off site right it has to be removed um again I'm not going to go through each of these they were in the ordinance there but uh one of the areas of confusion in the past has been this number three we tried to really clarify what we are talking about uh we want them to be 5T from the curb and we want to make sure that we have a clear passage for pedestrian pedestrians along the sidewalk surface and it has to be 5 ft wide and entirely free from any interference on Park Motor Vehicles ballards trees tree Gates curvs stairways uh trash receptical street lights parking meters or similar items we really want to make sure that they're not right on the curb they're at least 5 ft off the curb and then all the way around we want to make sure that there's this clear uh passageway for pedestrians for for safety raisins as well I was so there's a street light poost next to Harvey and so it's west of it what the light is west of their um Cafe area it's outside of it but okay so the I'm misunderstanding what the intent of this one because to me this says the passage zone right which is the 5 ft has to be clear at least 5 ft wide entirely free of interference I understand this but the street light is in the way already no it's it's west of their Cafe area so there's a there's space next to the light we actually went out there probably a month ago with Tiffany and made sure it was in compliance okay okay and there where we talked about already the furniture closure shall be removable to allow for required removable they have to make sure that it's able to be put away to your point Chris it was there and they shifted it further to the east towards Broadway so there's that there's the 5 foot width there now okay and then um why is so when you want to talk about 88 so why is 5T our magic number so wheelchair um think I mean 8wh from 30 in to 36 in for a wheelchair to get through so like the um sidewalk in front of my house is only four feet wide so we're requiring then a cwalk cafe to have more passageway than we've decided is acceptable passageway like for my house so and the reason I bring this up is because I want I want our businesses down here to be successful have as much room as they can serve as many people as they can um so I just I'm trying to understand why the I would say like the in your example there's there there isn't any Safe Harbor for someone to go other than into the street along Third Street where and it's in the downtown so 5 ft gives you know not in the case of probably a a stroller but in most cases two people can walk by each other in 5 ft or you know a 4ft sidewalk in front of your house there's going to be less interactions where two people are going to meet um and even if they did they could get in they could go into the boulevard area um in this instance if you have 5T to the curb your only kind of Safe Harbor spot is into the street which we don't want people to go into okay it's just it's hard down here because this is what it is we can't move a building we can't design a new construction so I just want to be yeah make things as easy as possible and and that was one thing that was in the original ordinance we did not change that and then I also looked at a couple of other cities and what they did in 5 ft seems to be pretty pretty standard for what they require so can you go back to that photo Vicky so we really work with Harvey's like okay this is fully in compliance so you know 5T in my mind too seems like why but it's really just kind of one you know just a little bit more than one sidewalk Square um and so um because I hear what you're saying I want I think we as staff we want that same thing I think it I think this is a good number where it doesn't feel like it's any more than what we would need to Pro promote safety because you know you can you can kind of make it out we had also had a oneway sign that was in that 5 foot area and Chad and his team relocated that so it would be outside of that 5 foot walk so we we made some accommodations just by moving some of our own infrastructure to make sure that they we could help them stay in compliance okay and then I noticed that they shortened it from what it was is that something their their seating area is shorter down it used to go farther down the ramp yeah that's cuz they didn't want to pay additional stack charges to the council okay okay so this is paid up for them to this yes okay they had looked into and wanted to pursue that and then change their minds they may do it in the future but for now they decided to not do that okay okay so it really wasn't anything in this section that we changed I don't know if anyone has any questions on that but yeah um so I would like to add smoking and vaping oh for being prohibited I would like to remove that in in its entirety because it's a business owner this is a private establishment smoking is legal not saying everyone wants next to someone smoking but you can smoke on the back patios at the bar you can smoke on a sidewalk if you're walking down it um this bugged me the first time this came this came through this ordinance came through to be approved only because of the fact that it's something that's legal and to me it should be up to the business owner whether they want to allow that on their patio or not except this isn't a patio uh Sidewalk Cafe it's legal to walk down the the sidewalk with a cigarette if you want I feel pretty strongly that since we can we can make the rules because it's a city sidewalk I'd like to add smoke keep smoking in and ADD baby I feel exactly the opposite that it is a city sidewalk where it is currently legal to walk down with one it should be the business owner's discretion so I have concerns about our upcoming uh I think we're going to get into a discussion of it but even usage of um cannabis and and the odor that that creates um people are moving outside to have a meal and a drink I think we afford them the same conditions we would if they were sitting in the restaurant without smoking I agree that it's legal on a sidewalk but that that patio is an extension of your seating for enjoying a meal and I think we we extend it to them so I'm going to be as to keeping it there I I that is exactly my argument right it's an extension of the Interior right smoking is not allowed inside so any thoughts on including vaping I don't care okay that isn't leg go inside is it her all right okay then yeah whatever is consistent with the in indoor dining L um on that number nine can we add the reasons such as know because the sck cafe is an extension of the seating area is that really just not the place to put that like if somebody says why it it's really up to the city I mean I don't we could add it we don't need to um you know the indoor Clean Indoor it's called like the Clean Indoor Air Act the Minnesota Clean Indoor a just prohibits smoking inside um so cities can prohibit it in fact the number of I think cities and counties prohibit um you know smoking in areas like this but it's really a policy call um I mean I guess if I would have looked at smoking um just on its face I I might have assumed vaping was included in that but you can certainly clarify it if the council the St wants to it just depends on how you define the word smoking um but it's up to it's up to the five of you whether you want to add that or change it or do whatever you'd like to do with it so I know that at City Hall all of our no smoking sign say no smoking and vaping so if it's going to stay in then I'd rather have on there as well the states um Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act um as of 2019 also included carrying or using an activated electronic delivery device which I assume for what you can not do indoors y for indoors exactly yeah for that definition right so we're going to say let's extend it to that the Outdoor Cafe then yes so if there's no smoking in the outdoor Calk Cafe and but there's maybe a another entrance or back patio does that have to be a certain number of feet away or like though a customer could still smoke yeah if they have a smoking area like a lot of restaurants have like a little smoked patio outside um it would be separate this is only talking about their the bound within the boundaries of their outdoor Sidewalk Cafe okay um so I mean in in theory could they be right next to each other yeah yes I don't see why they couldn't be sure then just that can be in my opinion go back to the business owner if that's the I mean environment they are okay with or that they want and to to Christy's point I mean you could be right on the other side of that segregation wall and have a cigarette and you couldn't have it when you're under the Kels and then you couldn't have it when you're in in the outdoor Sidewalk Cafe as it's written now it's a funny Vision in my head people just stand majority saying leave it in y yes yes and AD vaping are you're okay with clarify or the technical term and activated anything else on this one y and as I mentioned earlier number 11 we clarified the segregation is only required if alcoholic beverages are involved the old ordinance required it for it didn't differentiate that and we put that in there to say that's the only time that that segregation is required and of course maintenance and then we talked about removing the furniture already we did not have anything specific in this um in the old ordinance with regard to the fact that the city can inspect it at any time even though maybe we did or we got a complaint from someone that said hey this isn't right or can you take a look at this but we put that in there that we have the right to do that and then number two we actually gave the option that we can uh have something result in immediate action where before we didn't really have that have that we had a long process that we still have in there but we this gives us the option to actually take care of something immediately if we need to depending on what the actual um inspection would identify or what the adverse situation would be moving along unless anybody has any questions on that and then the last thing I won't go into a lot of detail here but the old one the old ordinance had a lot of uh definition on what we have to do if there is something that we want to deny suspend or revoke and this just lays out that process on what that is and for what it's worth it's consist some of the recent licensing like the food trucks that we recently used I mean it's all trying to kind of move into like a very consistent format for this stuff so that when staff needs to do something with the license we don't have to go back to that specific ordinance and say what is this one require we're trying to kind of move things toward that same form so okay so then uh the ordinance in the final form what what I heard tonight was we have one small change uh with adding The Vaping and then unless there's anything else any other questions that would be considered the final form of the ordinance and then as I mentioned earlier it would need to come back to the Planning Commission and the next Planning Commission date I verified with Aaron is July 20th and it would have to uh go through a public hearing there and then after that it would then come back to the city council for final adoption of that ordinance and and just to clarify sorry I don't mean to step on your toes Vicky but um we don't need to set it in stone tonight I mean if there are ch after the public hearing or when it comes back to council after that you can still make tweaks to it this isn't your last chance to you know chime in on on specific substance yes because correct me if I'm wrong Dave but the Planning Commission is approving the fact that it's being moved from the zoning ordinance it's not really giving input on the details on the ordinance is that is that a correct statement or no generally yes I mean I don't want to over I don't want to take take anything I mean I think the Planning Commission is free to chime in to the extent they feel they want to um and they're an advisory body of course and ultimately the council gets to decide and so you know my thought would be the Planning Commission can have a public hearing and make recommendations to the extent they wish and then the council can obviously do whatever it wishes when those recommendations come to it um so to answer your questions sort of but I think I don't think we would you know not let them make comments about things that they felt they wanted to make comments so okay one last question does that mean there just one public hearing the July 20th there isn't a public hearing at a council meeting that's correct thank you m all right anything else that's all I have thank you everyone moving on uh to the zoning ordinance update start are you how are you feeling about how long is 11 minutes you can do the city manager update 11 minutes we have 15 slides I'm not sure I added one today too oh okay okay so as most of you know the Planning Commission right now is working on our zoning code update so we have come pretty far in some of the Drafting and I just want to get a checkin got feeling head from the city council and some decisions that the Planning Commission is starting to make before we start drafting some of the language that will drastically impact our zoning code so the Planning Commission has been uh talking a lot about reduction and mot size minimums which I'll talk about in a couple sides a reduction in side yard setbacks the use of planned residential developments or prds um opportunity for different housing types and residential districts like duplexes is something we've been talking a lot about and then accessory dwelling units which I'd say we've probably talked about a couple times here but the Planning Commission has had pretty in-depth discussions about them at this point so we've actually been working on some of these goals for a couple of years so the housing action plan is an important piece of this it shows that we're looking for um housing for all and how zoning can support that we talk a lot about making a more affordable project which typically means a smaller house smaller lot size so the person is purchasing less for lesser cost so I'm thinking through the work that the Planning Commission is doing how zoning can support our goals in the housing action plan and the Strategic plan obviously so increasing housing choice uh changing the market that we have as much as we can to move away from just $500,000 in go family homes so these are our zoning districts we've been joking a lot about the residential onward District which shouldn't exist anymore uh is that we have Golds it is yes it's a really small District but it does currently exist in our zoning code I would never allow us to reone something to that right now so how can we make that a historic district uh take it off our zoning chart essentially just so people know not an AR yes an animal portion of course and then we have R1 R2 R3 and traditional res which is TR thout zoning code so right now we really actively reone most projects to R2 so we've been thinking a lot about that at the Planning Commission level so a quick overview of recent projects that we've done so Meridian Fields oak tree Timber Creek Meadows at Spring Creek Haw Ridge um all have wanted that R2 zoning District so it shows that that's where our Market is strongest and that's our probably most common zoning request is to go to an R2 PRD so we'll talk a little bit about that as well all of this also works in conjunction with our comprehensive plan so we have guidance for different densities so low density through medium and high you'll see the percentages of desired distribution in the chart so kind of the center of the chart you'll see that low density residential will likely continue to be our most common res presidential but what can we do to support the medium and high density adding those additional percentages into our community can you Aon just uh it's a deep di but I think it's worth noting the brown egg reserve your egg preserve areas because I think that's something that we're running up against a lot yeah so the areas that are kind of tan Brown those are areas right now that are actively in a program called egg preserve with Carver County so what that means is that people commit to keeping their property as an agriculture use and they get a pretty big tax benefit for it what that means for us though is that we have to show out on our comprehensive plan map which is kind of a bummer because we would never Annex property into the city for an egg use um just with the density requirements that we have so anytime a project comes into the city that is currently that tan color will need to do a comprehensive plan Amendment so it'll be an additional step that requires additional review by adjacent uh government units so so um it's something that I've worked and advocated with uh the Met Council to think about in our next plan iteration is that having this map isn't um a great reflection of what we think the city will be once we reach those areas just because we won't Annex property and that's in a preserve and it will require an additional pretty large planning undertaking the comp plan amendment process is not casual or short it's about a six-month process so it really could slow down some projects so something um we talked to the m counsil about quite a bit it's just a challenge that we have right now I have a clarifying question for the before we get any further so I know what from understanding what it means so do they go into like a contractual agreement for an extended period of time correct and what what amount of time is that generally does it vary or is it no it's six years and there's a a renewal process so many people just Auto renew after six years you can renew and say I want to be in it for six more years but then the day after that you can say in but after six years I want to be done but it is a six-year contract okay you said tan which tan or is it so like the the one that's those are currently in a contract so upon uh let's say death does that contract stay in place would say both parties passed away yes wait like if oh yeah but okay I'm just thinking when you say like Jo one person passed away no there's no one with the house now or the land you are able to stop the contract at that point so the W piece could develop we still only to do a comp plan amendment to get it in the city okay but he's not within that six years anymore with the county that's just the first six years okay and we do have underlying land use that the council and Planning Commission worked on is just it can't be shown on our official map because this was guided with commercial industrial are we allowed to have that I guess true future land use map in our it's adopted in our plan right now okay but do we have to adopt this map so this is both are in our plan right now so they're right next to each other in the full plan right that but we need to do the process of a complant amendment to get to the second map underlying guidance got it okay cuz I can't tell you how many times I've shared that true future land use map to say this is what might be coming in back here so now let's say I live there and I decide to sell my property so does that six year nullify then or does that carry through to the next owner to no so sale you could get okay so if they do I mean so if they sell to a developer that just we S A needed to accomplish Tak away that contract well that wasn't a deep dive sorry five minutes so thinking about our zoning districts and where they fall with our comp plan so R1 R2 is that low density medium density is R2 traditional residential R3 is our high density so if you think about Carver Ridge that 1857 units per acre is kind of our touch point for a high density project so Falls within that range about snacking so our zoning code works at a comp plan to create development project so these two things work together to create the zoning so one of the best ways to think about the project that we're working on is to check with our neighbors see what they're doing realiz they my charts don't transfer well but they go minimum lot size lot width front yard set back side yard set back rear yard set back across so in general the top one is our R1 zoning districts and corresponding R1 districts for Chan chasa victori and then our R2 district is on the bottom so in general I would say we fall pretty close in line and just something to always remember is that setbacks are minimum if we say your setback is 5et but someone wants 15 ft instead if they're lot can accommodate they absolutely can do that so what we know we've been working towards R2 is our most common zoning District we use prds or planned residential developments often our housing stock right now is really similar and our Market is strong so what's a PRD a PC so those are districts that you create for a single project they'll ask for some flexibility so a developer often comes in and says I want this change can we do a PRD from your standard zoning code we often say Yes um it's a joint planning effort by developers in the city writes a specific ordinance for a specific project typically what we've been seeing is that they've been looking for a deviation from setback or lot size so recently we've been doing a PRD pretty often to get low lot size and five red side yard setback five feet side yard setback instead of 7.5 in our R2 District um the PRD section of our code needs revision it'll be the first one to say it I've already said it so where our prds and pcds in Carver that're everywhere we do them for most projects so Fleet Farm quip next up etc etc um here's an idea on our zoning map so each one of these neighborhoods has a unique ordinance that corresponds for the Zoning for the project so development in the past 15 years is probably a prority creates a unique zoning district for your neighborhood um something that I asked the Planning Commission to think about is what was the departure from the zoning code and do you notice it when you're in those neighborhoods does it look different feel different good bad other so since we use PRD so often with that logo what a disaster it's like an echo of car since we use them so often if we are creating exception to the rule is the rule good um good bad and different if for every project we're having to rewrite a zoning ordinance for a specific project is our current zoning code inherently good I don't know the answer to that um our zoning code in the current market we're seeing a lot of that Villa product 5 yard side yard setback often 5,000 square feet for Min minimum lot size and then a question the Planning Commission was face with is when would a PRD or PCD go too far so what something that you would be uncomfortable with is it a two foot side yard setback on each side so four feet total is it five feet is it seven and a half just trying to get a gut reaction to that and our PCD PRD section needs revision uh often we are able to ask for things so someone comes in and says I need a PRD uh I would like to get to a point where it's some more of a negotiation discussion to say we'll give you this PRD if you can give us something we currently don't have much in our city code that says what we could be asking for so things that that can include are like um increased buffering so to say that you need more trees along County Roads or like noise fences along highway 212 so i' would like to create some additional language in the P PRD section that would allow us to have some leverage to say to get a PRD you need to be able to meet these requirements in certain spaces and then accessory dwelling units is something the Planning Commission just discussed so if you have an attached unit or a unit in your home they are permitted currently detached units are not allowed I get quite a few calls for them just people looking to have a second unit on their property which increases housing affordability and creates a wider range of housing they're often used for families otherwise used for like Airbnb purposes I'll say downtown most people are looking to Airbnb a property so allows you to make some income to work against your mortgage um or housing cost so uh something else said I'm just looking for a general gut check I know where the Planning Commission sits but I it's important to also see if you're in the same camp as them just so the Planning Commission doesn't do all this work and then it gets to this level and you all say like heck no so just wanting to get some general feedback um lot standards Zone regulation so um really driving down some of our lot standards so instead of a 7,500 foot R2 what would it look like if our lot minimum was 3,000 sare ft since we're going to those so often in prds and then use the Straight zoning versus prds again if we're constantly making exceptions to the rules are our rules okay do we need to change and then accessory dwelling units so I think that's a good place to pause how does everyone else feel sounds good okay pick this up during the meeting right um and we will do the council requests during the meeting too right can I get a motion to I'll make a motion toor second hi