5:30 I will call the work session to order I just want to give a quick introduction um Augustine your last name moraski amarasi um is joining us tonight he reached out to me via email a few weeks ago and said he was really interested in city government and here we are so um because Joy is not here he's also going to be sitting up at the T with us tonight so um with that um let's say the first item on our agenda for the work session is the utility project Mr Schmidt all right thank you Mary Council good evening so tonight uh we're going to be looking at the 2023 utility project it's really a kickoff discussion tonight be looking at the kind of the background status update what's program programmed in CIP then I'll jump into the specifics of the project itself and then next steps and implementation for moving forward so as far as the background goes we we have two projects that were line item out in the CIP for 2023 the first one was uh well 5 and6 generator which was programmed at $240,000 then we had a second line item in the budget for prv Replacements valued at about 200,000 so Allin we have $440,000 um coming out of the water fund for 2023 for these two projects so that's what we're um going to be working against tonight for the scope of our 23 project so what we have come up with Chad and I have been working on this together and obviously the well five and six um generator project that has an estimated cost right now of about $38,000 um then for the prv replacement line item um the Mount hul Road pressure reducing valve um that is one that we're looking to replace estimating right now that that's about 82,000 and then lastly um Highland Drive there's um a dead end main up there that we're looking to put a blowoff valve on the end of that main just to help with some of the the nuisance issues that um Chad and his team have um maintaining that system over there so I'll get into that a little bit more but all in so those three numbers add up to $446,000 which is about 6,000 over our budgeted line items in the CIP for 23 so jumping into the specifics then so well five and six this is um a well or two Wells that we recently drilled as part of the overall water system Expansion Project um we're looking to add on-site generation at this site which would be able to run both Wells 5 and six simultaneously at the same time um with a onsite natural gas generator um we've be looking to put an automatic transfer switch in which means that automatically in the event of a power outage it would transfer automatically um without Chad and his team having to go out to the site to manually flip a lever to allow the generator to operate the system uh lastly um since this would be such a important part of our infrastructure we would look to get that hooked up to our skada system um which is nice because we have those capabilities already built into the wellhouse so it's just a matter of getting it hooked up to the infrastructure that's in place in the wellhouse so the key thing that I want to point out about this generator for well five and six is that this provides a lot of uh water supply capabilities to the city in the vent of a sustained power outage so right now we have an A a generator and an automatic transfer switch at the treatment plant which can operate well too um well 4 has a manual transfer switch and Generator set up and then Wells 1 and three in the city do not have any um generators Chad would have to manually bring one of his portable generators and operate those Wells one at a time while juggling lift station issues Town Etc so in in essence with the generation capabilities that we have right now if we were to have a sustained power outage in the summer of more than a day we would be in really tough shape with being able to keep up with demands so since well five and six is they are two of our you know nice production Wells that we just drilled having that capability would really provide a lot of sustainability rest of the treat and Supply water to the city in a power outage so that's kind of the scope of five and six generator any questions is that a city uh natural gas system or a tank so there's natural gas in the the newer preserve development which is just to the south of this site so we would be getting natural gas from the main that's in that area any other questions okay next um scope of the project is the Mount Hope Road pressure reducing valve so this is a valve that's extremely old it's 36 years old today built in 1987 it's one of three prvs that we have in our system which regulates pressure from our intermediate or middle Zone as it's called to our low pressure Zone um the other two there's one at six and Broadway which is a newer one done in 2017 and then there's another really old one that's on Casa 40 which was built in 1994 so we really want to focus on getting at least two sustainable prvs that regulate pressure from intermediate to low so we have some redundancy reliable redundancy built into our system so the scope of this project here would be to replace the valve itself inside the manhole and then all the internal piping components in the vault itself and then lastly um something we want to set ourselves up for in the future is getting that prv hooked up to our skada system so we can monitor pressures remotely without having to um go down into the Vault look at pressure gauges that are 8T below ground um it's something that we can do from our skated computers in the plant or on our phones so really um important data to have um something we're looking to plug into a future project in 2024 when we're going to be doing some work at the wellhouse is the plan at this time so the wellhouse by Lions Park um will have some work that will be happening in the future after that's done we can get this hooked up to scada so more or less for now we're just getting conduit stubbed out behind the street so it's easy to do the rest of the job later okay any questions I brought that sure one lastly um Highland Drive so right now um this is this is an area that has really high pressures in our intermediate Zone um this is a one-way dead end feed um the picture here goes out the map but it's a dead end main with a hydrant just at the end of it so Chad has some um pretty significant nuisance conditions just when he even tries to do his annual flushing of the water main it creates a water hammer issues that some of the residents in the area have um issues with their their blowoff Valves and their water heaters that sort of stuff happening which it really isn't a an acceptable condition and we'd like to do some things now that can help um relieve some of those nuisance issues I'll I'll say um in the future so what we'd be doing here is at the end of Highland Drive we'd be installing a manhole that would have a blowoff valve and then if it would see a a surge and pressure through any series of events it would allow water to escape the system and reduce the pressure surge in this area so a good uh proactive approach that we can take for the for our water system here and that's estimated at value about $56,000 to do that I do have a couple questions about this one yeah um is this a project that could be completed before the spring flushing of the hydrant knowing that that's kind of a um Chad when do you flush in the spring uh weather permitting uh late March and April okay maybe into May um think it would depend when we bid it and everything we are yeah it would be tough to turn it around by then just with bidding and awards and stuff but okay and then what does the blowoff look like in my mind's eye it looks like Old Faithful but I would imagine so it's all going to be inside a vault underground so you're not going to see like a geyser or anything going out of the out of the ground it's all contained and all the water's captured in there too it doesn't go into the street so it it depends on how how long it needs to relieve pressure it probably is this for like a second where it's just not going to be that much water but say there's a different issue then it would fill up the the Vault and it would Overland flow into the into the curb so okay but under a normal situation it's just a very quick like a one second thing that just that's all it takes to relieve the pressure so okay thank you so um any other questions so why so I know that they put those those the I'll just call it the one that tempers it in the houses right and so why is this one having such an issue compared to other ones why is this area having issues um well I mean we're saying it's necessary right here so help me understand why if if we have those the house has it and then but we're now looking at having such issues with it sure um that kind of actually gets into the bigger next slide so maybe can I answer that slide on the next or your question on the next slide please so um that kind of gets into this bigger piture question about obviously everybody knows we had pressure events in in the uh summer of 22 so we we kicked around a lot of ideas after that how can we improve the situation in the case of a mechanical failure again and that was one of the things that we looked at that was the individual prvs in the home right um would the city support something like that on a on a city-wide basis maybe offer some um financial assistance for that to happen and the fact of the matter is we can't control what happens inside the house it is a building code requirement already that it should be getting done but who's to say that um they don't remove it after a fin final inspection it never gets done it's it's just impossible for the city to um regulate it and ensure that every single home is protected so the the approach that we want to take is we can we can regulate maintain our public water distribution system so everything that we own and maintain let's put our efforts to building redundancies into our water system so that everybody will be you know impacted in a positive manner with that so that's kind of the in essence the approach that we want to take and this is one of the areas where we thought you know this is something that we could do that would help everybody in this area ER can you for the council's benefit can you speak to the uniqueness of having a dead end in this location and how it contributes to pressure buildup exactly so this is an area that is a dead end in the system right now there's not very many of these areas in the city and quite frankly this dead end on top of already very high pressures is something that creates these issues right so I don't I can't really think of another area where we have a dead end that's like super high pressures Chad you no yeah this is the only one so ultimately if if the rest of the system builds out someday in you know kind of on the south side of 61 we' we'd be looking at possibly looping the system up from the water tower but for now um today we feel that this is a good approach from a systemwide perspective to make it it better so does that help ENT your question it does it just when we have the building code already for it that's why I'm just wondering why we're having these pressure issues if the building code is requiring this the way it was explained to me is that ideally you want to have real me and if I'm wrong but ideally you want to have a looping system and that the nature of it being a dead end is problematic in itself they yeah they Dan you can Chim in here but they operate independently you need to have that prv for a home that has a certain pressure but because of the change in grade from where the water's coming from from the treatment plant to where these homes are and then the dead end because that water dead ends I can't continue through the system it would at a normal so that pressure builds up so even with prvs in this neighborhood they're still going to pop off when there's a change in pressure and so this is kind of a built-in suspenders approach to ensure that we don't continuously have existing prvs pop off under normal conditions um and this is a way that we can ensure through City infrastructure that it's taken care of rather than kind of this Perpetual like who's just going to pop next based on the um water system and I think Dan used it to is it harmonics kind of plays A Part water hammer water okay can you can you just explain that just a bit for the console yeah maybe I I'll just just kind of sum up is this you're right they should have appear appear be some of them don't and so we're dealing with that issue and we can't tell them they have to right now and so they don't and so that we the water hammer separate we would actually normally go back in this situation based on what he's been experiencing it's not good on the joints of the pipe or anything so we find a public purpose in putting in the blowoff valve which does two things it takes a little bit of pressure off the pipe that's getting hammered well every time he does hydrant flushing which we think is Justified and that also helps with the issue with the residential homes that should have prvs but still they need prvs so if there was an issue and they they don't have a prv and there's an issue that comes up then is that is the homeowner liable for that does that come back to the city be liable so we're not we're not liable under any circumstance um and just kind of getting back to our alternative claim response the city wasn't liable in that instance either when we had kind of the big pressure incident the council at the time chose to to take care of it but this is a way to mitigate that from happening in the future um just because of the Dynamics I think one of the points that we discussed at a staff level is when uh this neighborhood was initially constructed and the water treatment plant was constructed the thought of how the city was going to develop was different because 22 wasn't in the picture and so um if you could go back in time hindsight being 2020 the system might have been designed differently thinking about the water treatment plant and potential for growth and dealing with some of these gray changes but so we're kind of reverse engineering from where we're at based on our current circumstances yeah I think that's a fair assessment yeah we normally put them in a situation of blowoff though okay so what's the highest PSI that's been up there that do we know has there been surge pressures would probably Peak above 150 that's one of those uh the water heater vals blow somewhere I think Chad you looked that up so it's give or take around the 150 and so the pressure is sitting above you know 100 which is already high and then when when that Spike hits it could speak uh get above 150 for a short period and that's what you see okay so it's sitting around 100 right now is that it's coming that that's that's your static and the hammer is much higher right okay thanks I think if the PV could be a geyser that would be more fun hopefully it's really cold so it Freez yeah yep okay so yeah just we just wanted to use this as an opportun to kind of bring this full circle and I know that we haven't really talked about it very much so that's we want to take a systemwide approach what what can we do from a a public infrastructure perspective versus you know dealing with stuff that we can't control totally so other things that we just wanted to note was um you know going forward just ensuring that all of our valves are well maintained and then as we look towards growth in different areas um looking at prv locations one thing we are considering is um pressure set points as a city um would grow to the Southwest so there's some options in there but um just something to note that we're we're thinking about it and we have we have some opportunities as as growth continues in the city so any questions otherwise um looking at next steps we'd be looking bring it back to council here in February um for authorization of preparing the plans and specs and then bidding here in the spring for a 23 24 construction that says it's a one sorry Lori there's a one-year lead on the generators does that come out of which budget then is that going to come out of it will come out of the water fund which isn't necessarily budget specific but do you know will we pay for it in 2023 or we'll pay for it in 2024 it'll be in part s whenever you know it'll be we'll ass sign a project fund and then transfer funds to to fund the project so it won't necessarily be a budget line item within the water fund it'll be treated as a project fund and be managed that way okay um I had a question on the last slide Erin where it says on the bottom about um correct deficiencies is that mean like does this catch us up like then we were taking care of is that considered a deficiency that Highland Drive um else kind of on the wish list or we um there are going to be other valves that we're going to want to look at but the intent of the last Point Lori was just um correcting any deficiencies that we've we found in past record keeping just like in the gis system making sure our records are up to date and then having a really nice um response plan for when issues do come up so we know uh we have a nice process okay so be identify what yeah to be exactly and we we've made huge strides on this already we've identified every single location that has an interconnection between zones um whether it's a hard you know closure valve or if it's a prv and so we have a we have a really nice like flip book that all public services will be able to have in their trucks and it'll be it'll be pretty nice so right thanks for clarifying that any other questions all right okay thank you do you need anything from us no that's perfect we will uh we'll be bringing this back to Council on six so super thanks sir thank you um all right moving right along to the trunk area study us all right let just plug in and get off run okay all right well part of the challenge of this one is actually pacing this is a complicated topic with all kinds of tangents so I'm going to try and uh watch the time here and keep it going but a little bit of review built into this but there's a couple of main points that we're looking as a looking to to get out of this discussion here so as you know it's it's kind of active active in in work uh kind it's a work session because we're working through it so we're looking for information on the Southwest area uh structure trunk line project which would be subject to the area charge do you feel it's viable you feel it's something that the city would want to pursue and communicate with the developing Community they're all interested is is the city going to pursue an allow for an area charge to be implemented in this area and obviously we've been working through the numbers but the next thing is would we be uh supported to uh say this is this is a a direction and and I get feedback and can I just jump in Dan the uh so when we say viable that doesn't necessar mean you're agreeing to do it what we really want to figure out is is this something that's worth talking about to the development Community or after you see this you're saying this is too big we don't want to take this on because then we don't want to engage the development community so let are are you comfortable enough with us as a staff team continuing to talk about it or is this about your limit and you want to kind of close the book on this for now so that's kind of the the mean table to that question yeah sure and uh thanks so jump in any time here so should the Southwest area infrastructure Gap the um the former Wastewater tream facility to cover Bluff Parkway be considered for inclusion of the next rision of long-term financial plan this is important because it couples with the Southwest area area charge that's part of the actual project it would be a CIP project and so would you be in support of uh that being uh included in the long-term financial plan um these two questions go hand in hand uh is the bigwoods infrastructure trunk line project uh viable to communicate with the development Community again would this be something that would move forward to the point of our let's talk to the developers of interest that here's an area charge that that we're thinking and you know obviously that that can be short of implementation or you can go so far as to put it on the website and say Here's the area charge and so um and then should the 212 coupled with this these are paired really should the 212 sanitary sewer extension project be considered they're both to the same region but they they're different outcomes you can do one without the other in this case um you can have plan for a 212 Crossing uh without the area charge and so that's a little different than the South area but they're they're still serving the same area so um I'll it'll make more sense as I go through it so I'll keep going um we are going to do a little bit of review here why trunk area charges I'll I'll I'll Breeze through this but uh go ahead and stop me if I'm going too fast um the why uh it really comes down to the developable area when you start running out of areas to develop the question is why and we're going to talk through about the wise right here you uh have a fair amount of inventory here at Timber Creek a couple hundred Lots remaining and you know we're obviously talking about this well in advance of running out of lots but as you know it takes a long time for all these things to to take shape and take form and so this is a proactive look at what happens when uh those lots are sold when the two uh largest areas of development would require substantial investment to even make them developable so that's why we're talking about it now and not when that number is say 20 Lots remaining so we still have plenty of plenty of time but it's not necessarily too early either so we've got the North Area you look up there in green um that's that's a little different uh mix of use housing uh commercial industrial and then the south is primarily housing so down to the South area we're looking at uh summergate we did not produce this drawing this is uh something that was assembled by uh summergate we're just showing you for the example of uh the amount of property that that could develop based on just a single developer who has some uh relationships down there that uh is simply saying if had utilities we could continue discussions and right now there is no utilities and it's too expensive to get there so all of this remains somewhat blocked and is it just tosson right now that's the big developer's considered yeah so tson is the former developer name they reorganized under summer gate they have um some of those properties that are like purple and blue like the well and some of them they have uh purchase agreements on or first rer refusal but but the ones in red they own outright so so that's under subate that answers your question the ton is no more as a so moving North the Big Woods area is what we're calling it it's commercial industrial next larger tracks of land um they've uh um I'd say so far eron if I'm not mistaken the response is positive as far as looking into this because generally developers are are going to say this is is just a benefit to understand what the cost would be in advance so um not no numbers being discussed at that time so I'm sorry does the Wicker property have any agreements or anything on uh like Joe Wi they're working with the developer right now so do you remember how many acres that was 8 80 a little bit Yeah but it's in between on that end but just a key consider we can serve the W Joe wickenhauser Farm uh with our current utilities we wouldn't have to do any extensions to service him okay Commerce Drive so by the time we're done here you you'll know obviously what is an area charge and then why you want to do it so I'll just uh get into the Weeds on it a bit um so what is a area charge it's a major system expansion cost that ends up being distributed through future connection charges that's really what an area charge is it's it's had some questions on how how this would compare to an assessment and it's different in that year this is a charge that gets put out there and said should you develop here's what you would pay for connection it is not something that that gets levied against the property owner um such as an assessment might for benefiting properties so this is this is more informational and as development occurs the project gets paid back that uh a city would have to take on so this is my example about uh why you want to do it so this this parcel perhaps wants to develop they decide that it's it's feasible for them to sell their lots for x x amount of dollars and the the cost work to sell the um sell it in the open market and they ask about utilities and we tell them it's going to be the this cost in red have to add that on to their cost of development as it stands if there's no city project they have to add that on there and then they have to add it all up together sell divide it up into lots and if those lots are too high it's not going to happen just the market won't support uh Lots with you know this this infrastructure project attached to this initial development and so um it would prevent the first developer in the door which prevents your first set of utilities from coming to the site which means it's a Perpetual Loop of it's not it's not economically feasible to develop in this area so the entire area that's subject to those trunk utility lines becomes undevelopable and for clarification I did get a call from a resident asking about this this red highlighted area it's just it's just a depiction for um developable area that these utilities would serve it has no zoning or planning uh affiliation it is really just a depiction of an area uh being served by pipe um so this would be the utility that would be brought down to this area that we need to figure out how to how to get those built so same developer comes to town and we have an area charge in place we've decided that we would think it's a good idea which is what we're asking for feedback today do think this is a good idea that we'd continue so this this project right here cost exona dollars but instead of saying the developers got to pay for it uh the city would be faced with the question down the road this is after the area charge is is already laid out there to to the developer we've already told them it's going to be x amount of dollars per connection there's still another bite at the Apple at that point uh where the charge is set up they know they say yep I want to go then um we can tell them it's that's their portion of it as they this first development uh uh development were to um be planned and they would look at and say okay well if that works it's and still feasible the development still stays viable they say yes we want to proceeded then there's another action at that point the city would decide if they'd want to proceed with this project and that would be you know likely a city bonded uh effort to build the the water and sewer extension to that property understanding that this property that's subject to development is going to pay a portion of it through connection charges that are subject to the area charge that we are figuring out here and then that bond gets paid back over a period of X years that X can be set by part of this process which is another topic we're going to cover today there's some variability to what the number might be and then as then the next developer uh would might be able to expand the utilities and pay a portion of the area or pay a portion of that project back over time you see the development would begin to you know through connection charges pay pay that project back and so the the big thing is it takes a couple steps he they area charge then the developer says feasible then the city says yes I wouldn't want to to the project and that first one is really where it where it's no going back at that point you build the sewer and water you have a bond and it's done and you're going to pay it back and have to be comfortable at that point to proceed the actual implementation of area charge in itself does not mean you're going to move forward with the project and just want to clarify that um so this is intended to be a proactive approach and why is it important because cities obviously develop uh Financial plans based on some moment of development occurring um over over the decades and if you if end up in a situation where you're 100% land locked and nothing can happen anywhere uh at that point you'd have to assume that there's no more connection charges and many things would have to be looked at a little differently if uh if that were to occur that being said um it's a just aing exercise here um so is this used elsewhere it's very common uh just the name of VI shock could be W Young America with Barry Cottage Grove um Aon has helped deal with area charges he Beth D it's very common practice and not to speak for Dave but he's already said it's legal so I'm not it so not coming up with any any offthe wall things here I think we can defend it legally that it's Justified and can be implemented so let's talk the details this is this is the the new stuff uh the Southwest area that's what's shown in pink I'm sorry go ahead I'm the dummy here what's the risk at this point then we do this and the developer Pils as far as like moving forward with the construction right so the the risk is um not putting in the infrastructure and the developer doesn't developers don't invest in the property and develop Lots so that you know probably one of the should the council want to move forward and the development Community says they want to move forward we'd be looking for some type of um assurance and I don't know what form that would take you know maybe it'd be a prepayment of um trunk area fees for x amount of lots but the the ultimate kind of downside would be you put in the infrastructure the area doesn't develop or doesn't develop at the rate that you think and then that debt service then falls on rate payers uh so like the utility bills would have to go up the conversely if you don't we come out ahead by doing it now than waiting 10 years and paying a higher price let's say that happens no I'll finish my thought and then kind of maybe Circle back to that conversely if if so right now most of our development or if not all goes from car Elementary West toward 43 if that area becomes landlock this people don't want to sell and the North Area and the Big Woods area and the Southwest area don't develop and we don't take in any connection fees then our financial model becomes exposed because we're relying on that to pay for Debt Service for the water treatment plant generator projects Etc and so again then rate ultimately rate payers so um and Dan can kind of you know Dan will get into this a bit related to the CIP but there are choices that were made with the carbon Bluffs Development and Construction of those utilities that I think tell the story of how things can get exponentially more expensive um Dan you want to maybe get into that a little bit oh did I answer your question it does okay um you want keep going here would yeah keep going here and then we'll Circle back okay sounds good so the salt area Southwest area is shown in pink um that's it's a huge area and just for some context as far as how how big this would be really the equivalent of of the city of Carver uh if this were developed right now so it's it's a huge area it's bigger actually um and so uh this is uh this is something that would not be developed in 20 years it's and we'll show you this is something that would really really grow for many many decades but it's all stemed to what's shown in yellow and red right there and so these little these little areas so we're going to talk a a little bit about what we're going to call the city trunks who are upsizing uh project what's shown in yellow and that's that's question number two at the very beginning do you support uh planning this area in yellow in your CIP as a future upsizing project you know how in those the CPU there's these the upsizing costs that that the city plans for as the developers come through and they say we're going to put in an 8 in and we say you're going to put in a 21 we pay the difference those are upsizing charges those that's a CIP uh plan element this we're considering because of the way things played out here in the past we're considering this to be an upsizing portion of the project that the city normally would have invested some capital in um the rest of this is just simply extension of a pipe that has a gap and would be uh the area subject to the area charge um so this is the details on it so the yellow is the upsizing element and the only difference here is this all would have to be done as one one project the difference would be if this was planned through the the capap and financial plan where there's a few different Avenues to to budget that into the system Dan can you say that again you said it would all be one project yes it would be all one project you can't do the red down here without without this yellow and the red yes and the the reason why it's a little different is because the yellow if it was planned into the into the CIP is different different financing mechanisms and how how it might be uh planned for so start at the same time but just yeah financed different yeah some different different means really what it that the yellow would not be in the area charge calculation the red would be paid back specifically through the area charge um and so that that's uh is some subtleties but it it's important and that uh there's different ways that that the yellow might be covered I'll speak to that Dan jumping if I miss anything here but ultimately when the Carper Bluffs neighborhood was built it was not built from an infrastructure perspective with any oversizing meaning the pipes that you see at in the carver Bluff Parkway where the red is would just serve essentially another home it doesn't get you any any oversizing and I you know I don't think anyone in this room was around to understand the Dynamics of how that infrastructure was put together and the deal etc but when we looked at that yellow portion we didn't think it was justified to try to add that onto a trunk line charge to a future developer when under our current infrastructure model we would have made Carver the Carver Bluffs Association or not Association but that developer um construct that upsizing at a City cost and so it when we started adding the two and Dan will showed us and some other sides we started adding them two it's like well we're not going to get anywhere because if we add that to the trunk line charge and R that construction cost it's going to be it's not going to be uh feasible because we're trying to make up ground from something that didn't occur 20 years ago on top of it so am I explaining that yeah I I think it's just retroactively trying to do what we would have done you know uh you know had had this decision been available to us we would have upsized that pipe we would have paid through the CIP and now in this particular case we're saying all right well that's how we would treat that at this point right so it's essentially again it's a decision of the council but it's a decision to fund that upsizing in the year 2023 rather than in 2003 or whenever that infrastructure was put in yeah um so it's just important to remember the yellow and red as you're looking at the area charge what was in it the CIP side of it so here's here's SL referring to this is the yellow just look back that's the that'd be the CIP so that would show up in your financial plan um that would uh be coupled though with this you wouldn't typically do this without without this and so you could you certainly could uh build it but it it's really this is the extension of the of the 800 so it could be one project or this would have to be first is how I'd say this would have to happen um the red on the previous slide this is the area charge uh project that's $3.6 million and overall between the two of them is 4.4 and just as as an FYI these are much bigger numbers than they were just three years ago so I this is just just a function of the times here things are more expensive and the these are $4.4 million may have been 2.5 a few years back with without the inflation but um it it is what it is it's still relevant to to the development Community how how we going to get the pipe there so um critical numbers for the calculation so I said the area charge uh portion of this was the the southern portion of the expansion that $3.6 million total service area is 18800 Acres 6127 is eru is equivalent residential units so you can do the math on that 6,000 if it was just home 6,000 homes so that's that's what type of an area would be served by this so now the Magic Moment on what we came up with in order to actually um apply apply an area charge you have to decide what would be the payback duration what what is reasonable to assume for the number of connections per year that's a huge part of this determination uh because you you're going to have a bond and you have to pay that back over x amount of years and so if the area charge were to pay back that Bond you'd have to say well we we would assume in this particular case with shown in uh orange here we' have to we can assume reasonably maybe 40 units per year might connect over on an average uh in the entire area so that doesn't get you the entire area it gets you to uh 235 Acres of of that property um now the the the determination here for this area charge is again it's it's for developer understanding about what charges they would pay so this would become a real charge if it would be implemented each connection would pay this if we were to say we want this back uh in 10 years payback period in 10 years we're we're going to be assuming uh charge is $14,500 per connection at that point we put an area charge out there that we know to be unrealistic for a developer so we could put it out there I certainly could throw that on the site and say that's your area charge and we just know generally speaking the answer is going to be that's going to make these Lots un buildable and undevelopable now if you go the other direction and say I want to put this charge across the entire area all 1,800 acres would pay a portion of this because they do technically all benefit at that point that charge might be $950 per connection but you would have to wait 153 years for that uh that bond to be paid back through connections that would you know basically build out another Carver um and so there there's this is on top of the city's already connection fees this so that's clear so our water connection and sanitary sewer connection this would be an addition to that those charges yeah yeah so um and again I'll reiterate this is a pass this is a passive it's it just sits there out there publicly noticed that the city of Carver has an area charge in this area developer looks it up and says all right I'm going have to pay your water connection I going have to pay your sanitary connection then there's going to be a 722 in this particular example 7250 for sewer and water will be attached on top of that and they'd run the math under Lots I have a question for you so when we're looking at the contributing Acres there's a large park that's planned out there how does that factor into this when it when we're charging the developers so do they have to pay for I mean if you have Park acreage out there are they paying that per acre no matter what goes on it or is it just for housing unit we'll have to consider that when we get into we haven't dug that deep into the numbers you'll see in the next slide Dan given some examples but we'll at some point we'll um and I'm not sure if the 1797 contains it but it'll well considered developer developable acres in that calculation but that's a very good point yeah um yeah that would be that would be certainly applicable it would not be not be a a part of the payback because it CI so all right so now one of the other little uh assumptions that ends up being quite essential to deciding what that charge might look like um is if we could say all right 23 contributing Acres uh over would be the payback uh over 20 years would be your payback area um that's about 800 year use so if you were to say well we we are willing to accept a 25e bond on this we're going to give we're going to give uh 25 years for this to pay back through development and uh at that point you're you're you're just extending the extending the payback period allowing for more development to occur at that 40 units per year so that might get you about 295 Acres developed with u a th000 connections that lowers the charge a little bit um and so it basically spreads it out more areas might be subject more area might be subject to the charge um and then uh there might be contributing to paying back the bond um and then you could also go with a 30-year payback period again where the the first well all the developers that are running the numbers on this would have to add a $5,800 charge and that would uh with over 40 units per year cover about 350 Acres of this area so the bond period is important to that the charge and you know one of the final steps on this is setting that charge um these are conceptual examples it's not like when we give you a budget and say well this is the budget for you know office supplies these are based on what we know now for estimates for costs and bond costs but uh they tighten up once we get into examples like you mentioned chrisy and then uh going over what construction actual bid costs are and bond costs are Etc once we take that into consideration say we were to move forward something like this the park plan and all that so that these numbers and we would make the assumption that those numbers that will be charged back to the developer would be higher than this right because we wouldn't be charging them for so could you ask that okay so if we let's say the park land goes in and it's a how many acres right so this is being charged per acre but technically that's not developable land so would that we make the Assumption then that our charge per acre would go up because we would be having to take some of those contributing Acres out of those totals because it would become Parkland and not developable housing yep but the I think that Park you know what the area that Park is right you know it's say even if on the high side it was like a 100 you know it's it's going to be it'll impact it but not significantly and so there will be other choices you know the council would have to make related to payback period that are going to be more significant than uh that Park that makes sense yeah and I I would uh also I'd also note that to your question would it impact the chart I I wouldn't look at it that way I would look at it as though it they're going to go around the park we're worried about Connections per year if that Park takes 80 acres out of the area there's another 80 acres that has to develop with 40 AC 40 units per year and so it's just it's less land that could be subject to paying this back but there Al there'd also be some density changes there might be some town homes that where you get more than that three units per acre yeah um so it'll take some additional analysis if the conso fs comfortable with the range and then we you know if that makes sense that Park is 35 35 okay this this was all just based on the future land use plan and and those areas right now this is developable acres is what we presented okay for the overall piure so as you think through this I know as the all the numbers are probably making heads let go where we go with this and just the basic question is going to be do we do we want to support developing and making public some type of an area charge that that we can honestly react to with developers because um that that's the almost the go no go on this discussion um is uh we want to we want to pick in refined number but some of these assumptions are important the 20year payback 30-year payback would be significant uh understanding how how the number would need to play out but um yeah they they just need to do the math they add six grand per lot is it work has it work to sell sell homes and if it does that you know they probably uh move forward so uh before I hit to the north area which is a little different uh want to stop for any questions on this Daren Smith would you mind just share with the you've had we had a meeting with a developer you mind just giving a summary to the council about their interests on the south end sure so um tying back I've been thinking about Eric's question just bringing it down to a level that's really understandable Is that West we don't have an option right now just because land owners are saying I'm not interested in selling what the People South have now said is that I cannot afford to get the infrastructure there by myself to support the project so that's where the city is stepping in potentially to say we could help fund it by spreading it across many more developments and just this one to make any development South possible so right now they've said no go we can't afford it on our own but the minute we started talking about the connection charge fee it was like their eyes lit up and we had brought them a great gift that um saying that these parties are likely ready to develop they would be interested when we choose to move forward but they would need us to be the partner in the connection pleases because on their own they can't support that connection that red portion that Dan was talking about so I I it's a little Field of Dreams like if we build it I think they will come just knowing that West we don't have a great option right now South is too expensive North is a little bit tricky with just land owners between can we talk about West for just a second so not today but within the next maybe a few years have you heard any of those inklings there's been some discussions with some realtors that are west but nothing concrete from property owners that have said things have changed in the direction that they might be going okay so is that to say that the developers have talked to land owners in the area and they're amable to to sell them correct okay and again I'm sorry when's the last time we were faced with decisions like this we've we go through this before we've never done an area charge in Carver before but it's not uncommon for other cities to do it I think a large driver of that is that we have had accessible Farmland that we can develop and property owners that are recognizing the value of their land we're just hitting some areas now where those people are saying it's not worth it right now for meat to sell so um West I think um should someone want to continue we could have that parcel sold really quickly just with the amount of development that we're seeing in Carver the amount of project generation like this is anecdotal but we heard recently from lar that Timber Creek is the bestselling lar product in Minnesota right now we one of the markets not being as affected by uh what might be a recession so I think Carver is just in a sweet spot right now where ours we we're not seeing the slow down that a lot of communities are so should a property owner West say hey I'm ready to go we could say great we have utilities that could support you we're just not there right now and we are afraid that that might not happen for 5 years 10 years so what does that mean for our growth our long-term Financial plans when we stop getting that Revenue that we've been anticipating so cracking open North and South allows us to continue to pay back the projects that we've already completed the water treatment facility is a good example we need these revenues to continue coming in or else we'll need to refine the rates that we're charging maybe the difficulty in having is beat Devil's Advocate why wouldn't we want to do this it's expensive we would be taking on cost upfront to pay for the project and we would be putting faith that development would continue the way that part I get that um but if we wait this going to be 6 million in two or three years and that's the thing without us being a partner we've been told that South doesn't happen so uh we either accept that to be a fact and it doesn't happen or we step up as a partner and say We'll spread it out greater than what you know right now Aon brings up a good point as we're going through the finishing t is on this when you think about it there's a $3.6 million you know an estimate cost that the first developer would have to bear to develop let's say 80 Lots which would make it not feasible so it doesn't have to be again a decision today but if you know if the in the short and long term the council says we're just not we just don't want to consider this you know the The Next Step would be to say that sell area will never develop and then you'd kind of redo your comp plan to to um align with that reality that you're just not going to be able to justify the cost of bringing utilities to that part of the community now that you don't again you don't have to decide that today but without we know for to a pretty high degree that one developer developing a 80 to 100 Acre parcel you know even double that size will not be able to float that initial cost of infrastructure without some type of partnership with the city it's just a matter of if if you can see yourself in the short term or long term doing that at what cost under what circumstances a little context though so tson bought this land 15 years ago what was their expectation then to be connected to the city if they were willing to buy this 15 years ago because this would have been the same problem because what I want to make sure is that we're doing the right for the city and not because well this developers own this for so long because they had an expectation when they bought it to develop so how were they planning to develop if there was no yeah connection that I guess speak so they I would say like two things so one they've had this ongoing conversation with the city to do this very same thing the entire time I've been here I would say prior to that the circumstances were are related to Land Development one you know and then two the cost of utilities made it feasible But as time has gone on they had that weight during the housing recession uh then you know this you know the city wasn't in a position to to do it and then when we do it the market changed now costs have gone up and so it's been this ongoing story I think they uh my understanding is they went in and I don't have any reason to believe that they didn't think that they could do it on their own they had a School site kind of Reserve that they're going to have an elementary school and just through the source of for the kind of evolution of our economy and market conditions it just started to spiral to now it's not feasible so like if they if they weren't involved at all today and some new property owner came in or perspective buyer came in to do this we'd be in the same condition I don't to your maybe bottom line to your question I don't feel like they're trying to leverage the city in a way to um benefit as like some type of like subsidy I is I think there's truly a problem that didn't exist the day that they bought the property well I don't think they're looking for a special subsidy because it still gets paid back they're still going to pay for it and eventually but it's just one of those where they had to have a plan back in the day so why is it is it so difficult now but it was it was it seemed feasible at the time they bought a lot of there right and again i' have to ask them directly and get a direct response on it but I you know based on conversations and experience it was a lot more feasible back in you know with be close to 20 years ago now in the mid 2000s which seems awful to say that that's close to 20 years 15 years 15 said in his presentation 1994 that's really old you know the your audience the exciting exciting maybe in quotes is that you know summergate has already had engagement from a a national Builder uh that hasn't built Carver yet so there even before there's been a goal from the city council um they've already expressed interest had a meeting with Aaron and the engineering team so um I wouldn't I would say this isn't a build in the they willcome scenario this is we have a pretty good indication and we can vet that even further but a pretty good indication that this would be the spark that they need to move forward we need to you know memorialize that in some form but you know the biggest pieces do even want to get there so if I may just a comment and then a question for the group so I think just for anybody who's watching this at home the city and we're talking a lot about future development we're talking a lot about putting houses and businesses on land where there aren't any houses there are very few houses right now um and we are taking a longer view but Aaron or Brent or you know anybody sitting around this table isn't out there strong arming and we all know this but again it's for the folks who are watching like nobody's out there is strong arming these land owners and saying listen we need you to build we need to build right now it's completely at the owner's discretion at a timetable that works for them and their financial situation and where they want to live and their life's situation so I just want to be really clear about that that even though we're looking forward it's not us putting the heat on these land owners um also then procedural question would now be a good time for us to talk about the first two questions I know it's going to ruin your pacing but okay um so let's just take a pause from Dan's presentation and go through the first two questions that they wanted to take our temperature on so um question a is is the Southwest area infrastructure trunk line project viable to communicate conceptually with the development Community um I feel like it this I'm the same I feel like it is what that really helped in the presentation is to know like what our current inventory is is like a little over 200 fled there's a slide at um that that really helped me too um having that but I absolutely agree it is um it uh it it seems pretty clear that that's the direction development is going to take place and it's this is the key that starts that process or spark um I I don't know why we wouldn't entertain this and and move it forward Christie um so we still have yet to talk about the Big Woods so I want to make sure that stays in I don't want to tunnel vision ourselves right this question specific um and so when you say communicate seually can you just tell me is that just saying this is something the city's considering how is that when we say communicate conceptually give me a little bit of an idea of what that looks like so it' be basically your you know in a parental way like your permission to have Aaron connect with summergate and other land owners in the southwest area to say you know here's Dan's presentation in kind of short form we're looking at you know you know these options um for uh pricing for connection fees or trunk fees you know how does that land with you you if you were to say so that would be what you'd be saying yes to if you'd say you know this is too big we would I would never support putting in infrastructure with the city paying for first and waiting for a payback we don't want to like get people excited or engage them in a conversation that we know at its root isn't supported from the council so that's the question okay um yes I I can go along with that as long has communicated really well this isn't something set in stone because I once the word gets out it can get kind of oh that's what's happening and then and that's it falls down that would hold to but yes I think it is viable so right um question I think that was clear you good thank you took two of them right off the table so no we still have B sorry B okay the CIP project okay keep us on track um so this is so the uh should the Southwest area infrastructure Gap from the former wastewater treatment plant to Carver BR Bluffs Parkway be considered for inclusion in the next revision to the long-term financial plan so essentially that means should the city of caror take on that final financial responsibility um I talked to Brent about this and I you know it's easy to criticize the folks were in these chairs 20 30 years ago or a really long time ago as you would say um but I think you know they were just going under different assumptions and doing things a different way than we do things now we are very familiar with the term oversizing and we know what that means and we know where we've done it and we know that it's a practice in the city um because of that and because it's a practice that we do right now my vote is yes uh let's Go reverse um yeah I I mean I think B kind of rests on a but um if let's just say so if we weren't going to go with the Southwest area we decided let's say we're going north right then that takes B out of the equation or do we feel like we still need to oversize that in for someday I would say you wouldn't go ahead I I would say you just wouldn't do the project I mean you you plan putting it in the CIP doesn't mean you're going to act on it so I would say um yeah you you would probably not build that portion of the project if you're deciding that you're not going to pursue an opportunity for the Southwest area to develop yeah chrisy I think the question is is like if we go ahead do we think of that first section City's responsibility yes yeah that's the meaning I don't see how they aren't linked right they are linked it's just you want to make sure that you're that a if you said well no that has to be part of the trunk line fee then we need it' be helpful to understand that now yeah it's really about the CIP inclusion for that I don't think that's should part of the drunk drunk the TR line I heard you say yes yes okay yes all right all right to you well uh I think I'm gonna have to pick this one up here a little bit to make sure we get out of here by seven so big thankfully the big actually we're going to be out here by 10 too but we will we will very gladly carry it on to the council meeting to all sounds good all right so the the Bigwood service area here this one this one could be a little bit easier just because of the way it played out and the numbers so the red is the project that's necessary to serve this entire area up here so it's a huge service area again let's consider it to be the same size as Carver at least to develop out uh this one is very very expensive though it's it's a huge run of pipe and a massive lifting that's like a met Council type station that would serve this entire area and so the numbers got really big on this one is the is kind of the short of it so looking at the cost of doing this uh large lift station big uh big Force Mains all the way down across 212 um I'll basically explain that the area charge was this project the lift station and and all the all the force man to get get to get to hear um so this is um what would happen without it um and this is going to be explained in a second here this is a part of the area but it's somewhat separable this entire area up here could not develop without that LE station enforcement but you still have development up here that can still occur because Brent was mentioned this before this property the working Houser this can still be served on the 10 inch but right now what's going to happen is the 10 inch uh when these folks develop it's going to fill up and it won't have capacity to go any further and then this area needs to go across 212 and so this area as part of the uh part of the current plan could not develop without this 212 Crossing so I'll explain how this breaks out a little bit when we looked at it and uh part of the value here is just understanding how we would do it under under developer expansion uh request um we found that well if we get the pipe across 212 you can serve this entire area because this is all gravity that goes right into into 212 so you get this over here and all of a sudden it opens up this whole area but to start going north up here you really need that lift station the reason is is is you're running gravity pipe that all funnels this Direction all to that lift station so you don't start putting in gravity pipe that goes this way without a placed uh ppet so this is the area that's most sensitive to the area charge I'll show you how that separates out in a second the 212 Crossing we consider to be you know really fundamental to the area you're one you're not going to get past those green check boxes uh you know until you you get across 212 with that gravity pipe it opens up a big portion of the of the area north of 212 uh the far farthest north area is not going to be opened up until you put close to $8 million into that lift station of for Main and uh what we so what we CED out is an area charge of $7.8 million I said what would how would that play out over these acres and to really boil us down into a very quick summary these numbers are so large that we don't consider it to be feasible in that manner to just simply love the an area charge put it out there to developers and say $115,000 a connection and you can develop this North Area I we're quite certain that the finding on that would be what we're going to go elsewhere and so we moved on uh and did it fairly quickly and said all right well what are the recommendations for these two I think we talked about our South uh West service area so I think we're we're going to keep moving into the Big Woods area recommendations um the uh the plan in order to make this happen really has to come with some creativity and we're going to have to phase things we're going to have to plan uh plan ahead uh just building that project and and attaching it to the connection charges is is probably not going to work based on the numbers we're seeing but what we can do is we could probably look at uh budgeting for the 212 sewer Crossing uh that could potentially be a CIP project which opens up a tremendous area just north of 212 that Crossing in itself is is probably something that would be advisable just to just to plan for that would be a city project it's it's it's Unique in that it's it's a gap in your system uh it's it's not uh it's not an extension of of the the current man that we we've built uh there's a gap that you typically wouldn't assign to any one developer can you go back to that map jump in here quick um the difference between the Southwest area and this Big Woods area is if you think of the 212 Crossing similar to the extension of utilities from the sanitary former wastewater treatment plant to the go site for the trunk line those are similar what's different about them is as these properties develop to the North there isn't a gap meaning that when the wih Houser Farm develops we'll pay for the oversizing to get to the next property to get to the next property to get to the next property we're not in a position where that could happen in the southwest area so there's a understanding those conditions there's a lot there's a lot less pressure um to put in a trunk line because there's not it should develop somewhat orderly going to the north where we'll take opportunities to oversize where we don't have a gap where we need to kind of um Hopscotch to get to somebody else where in the southwest area because of kind of the the rural lot developments and some of these pieces that won't come in there is this Gap that just and because of the way the C Bluffs uh develop there's just this Gap that needs to be addressed where you know we don't we're not going to have that you know there's a large lot development to the just to the north of Lake View but that's not not in the route where the utilities would go so the Dynamics of these two project areas are different if that makes sense to you all so to to finish this one up here what we're thinking is um get across 212 is a fundamental element one of the questions is would you support putting that in your long-term financial plan um it's a smaller chunk and opens up a fair amount of area um and then uh as as development does Ur which would would occur based on the 10in line until it runs out of capacity we would be looking to preserve corridors for future for Force main pipe and we basically be planning this into every development moving forward we now know what we would do long term and we don't want to lose the opportunity to get easement Force Ms and and plan for it and we've been doing that sou at the 212 as well so just understanding what we would do can in many cases make something more feasible in the future just by planning it right away and and things to that nature so if that's a 10in one right now now are we have I mean is that the same problem that we have coming out of the bluff CU it's undersized yeah so when that developed it's going to have to get redone that that we we'll have this thing built so that the 10 inch uh the 10 inch ends up getting maxed out and then everything goes to the north to the lift station so that'll be pipe sized for going north to that lift station and so we're we would not be feeding more effectively our oversizing is happening through that 212 crossing that's where all the capacity goes once you Max ma out that 12 in or that 10in pipe it has to go so I'll go back to that slide here once this 10h gets full from all this all the rest of the flow for that entire area goes in here to pipe that we've already oversized okay on these developments so these already have much bigger pipes going through the development than they would have needed and that was part of the oversizing charges you paid for in the past um and so this is your additional capacity over 10 in okay um and so uh we we would look at this as reassess area charges in the future for lift station or piping as development pressures goes we feel like area charges might still want to be on the table in the future but we feel ultimately this comes down to the 212 Crossing being planned into uh you know the upcoming connection or upcoming exp extansion ex extension across 212 so uh that uh we actually we actually did make it so you can decide to keep it keep it going into meeting if you'd like to ask more questions but the question for the Big Woods area is the same as uh would you consider this to be viable um to discuss area charges as as we mentioned for to the uh development community and I I would say I think we we through all our opinions on the table it's it's a big number and as that number might be too large it's uh it' be a tough discussion um should 212 sanitary sewer extension be considered for inclusion of an extra vision of long-term plan which is you know probably one of the bigger questions uh is uh that's that's B basically the Lynch pin to the entire North Area outside that 10 inch can you go back to the slide that has the yep that one so if so we have some developable land there but is that all how is that zoned uh um wih Houser is commercial or industrial Lano is commercial on the corner uh Hartman going west so Fleet Farm is commercial and then it goes to um yes probably to Med okay because when we look at the Big Woods it's not it's just it's too huge right now for at least for me this is my opinion like that's too huge obviously but we still have and you know I like BR when you're saying it's going to develop more orderly and that's the way we're accustomed to um this doesn't get us houses up here but if we put that can that green square not develop into commercial unless we do the sewer Crossing this no go oh that yeah Aon you can chime in if you want but to me this is this is tied to the it's all gravity that goes right into here Y and I only ask if that is important because we talk about our tax Bay and what is paying for the taxes in this community and it is basically residential right now so obviously Big Woods is far too big of a thing to bite off but is the sewer Crossing is that going to help us get some more commercial in here that we can get added to our tax Bas so it's it's not going to be residents forever just paying the majority of everything so I for me the sewer Crossing seems kind of important so I hear you saying no to C and yes to D let me get back to the questions big was C and the sanitaries who are under 212 is D okay I'm saying no to C is that what you're asking no to see and yes to D okay so exactly what chrisy said most verbatim is what I was thinking my question regarding the the 212 Crossing um can we H our bets on that can we wait until we have development what's the lead time on something like that I would imagine a construction season yeah generally speaking the moment you said go um it would probably be the next summer maybe it was 3 four months something like that yeah that's probably not conducive for yeah I would offer that you know if the council supports that we didn't plan for it within the confines and the entire plan where it makes the most sense but um we're for the most part not going to be able to align that and if you don't include it in your plan at all um uh you won't have the numbers for the fees you need to charge so you should show it in there when it occurs um is going to be kind of like shooting darts with the blindfold on I'm still supportive I was just curious so um Eric uh I agree no to C and yes to D that seems logical and I'm on the same page okay did you get what you need from us yeah you answered every question that was impressive that was like I know I didn't think we'd make it city is all about pipes right okay in the interest of time can we skip the manager's report and talk about it in the I can be quick okay uh on 6 Street West we have a kind of in between construction seasons and so you're going to notice uh some conditions in there um and so I asked Erin to kind of speak to that so the Christy got a call from our resident and I just wanted to have him address that with the conso sure so on the kind of the East End of the project down at the low Point um right now we still have a 2in lift of the 2 minutes that needs to go down so the final Ware course lift won't be happening until next spring that was per design so right now the water has to build up 2 in at the low point before it can actually get into the catch Basin Inlet because the the curb is sticking up you know this much higher than the than the existing pavement that's out there so you're naturally going to have a puddle that goes out around that low point you know pretty far into that lane before it can build up high enough to start flowing into the top of the grade so that was not a surprise to anybody and it's it's just it was so Michael Jabs connected with that Resident so my other question then about that area is there the catch bations where it looks like it's coming down you got the grade on the road and then it kind of comes to that little dip here and I understand where you're saying where it's 2 in lower but water doesn't run uphill either so do is there something to catch it down on this side that isn't of the driveway cuz the driveway is here I look like the catch Bas are right here a little bit of an extra dip that's right in front of the driveway and so is this water going to flow into another Basin that's here here wherever it's not going to go backwards up there no it's not going to go backwards so I think I drove up today too and there's kind of some slush and stuff so it's kind of just impeding the flow a little bit just with this awkward like freeze Tha so I mean at the end of the day we have multiple catch basins at the low point and all the water is going to be going to that location so just as kind of weird interum condition that we got to deal with here for a little bit okay question answered we good 651 skating rank update quick uh the the warm weather and the rain were very destructive to the ice so thin sheets um we're still doing our evening flooding temperature is below zero or below 32 today so we'll be flooding tonight and if temperatures are conducive we'll do daytime flooding so unfortunately still looking at two to three weeks thank youate we know you're doing all you can yes my buddy Owen's super looking really looking forward to this we're trying oh man and then last thing uh okay just out there two one resident asked me to share with the council that they support a single garbage collection in the city and so I said I'd pass that along to the council I okay if we want to share our thoughts on that let's save that for the meeting for Council comments I would entertain a motion to adourn I'll make a motion motion by council member Mar I'll second by council member cool I you said all those in favor say I oppos motion pass