I'll call the meeting to order um let's start with Ironwood Park improvements Miss Smith thank you I'm going to run through the images that are in the packet on the slides just so we can collectively talk about the same pictures and then anyone watching at home and get some visuals of what we're talking about so as you know with Timber Creek we got roughly 3.3 additional acres in Ironwood Park so the Parks Commission and city council started work on this this past summer and we started programming some of the additional spaces while thinking about what is their future projects some things that we know and then some unknowns to follow walk through all of that tonight so on the screen right now is the full overview so it shows the entire Park area kind of in three boxes so I'm going to start North work my way South so top corner is a future Regional lift station which um future to me felt a little bit scary thinking it was coming in the next year or two but from our engineering team it's probably about 10 years out so not something that will be constructed anytime soon but something that we need to save space for it likely will be a small building of some type with some pretty exensive turnarounds a gate off and road drive so people don't think it's a quick slip in anywhere just so it's pretty clear that it's city property not to be messed with ask a question about that Regional lift station yes Regional to our city right okay so takes most things West okay of where we are today yeah and then both the city council and Parks Commission so that they valued leaving some open space so not over programming this park to allow for some casual users so whether that be kids playing a pickup game of kickball I know that people use the park for different reason so leaving open space felt important to both groups the center box is close to car Elementary so there's an outdoor classroom that is slated and then the square along iron Drive is the big development piece so there's closer visuals of each one that I'll run through but just the Overview at this point you'll see Timber Creek is in here too so thinking about the development here this a 74 town homes they actually applied for their first building this past week so we're hoping to start construction to get a model up of those town homes so thinking about those users Timber Creek but also all residents of Carver how they might use this park today and moving forward so some close-ups the two areas the two more Northerly squares again the future Regional lift station and then throughout the park you'll see that there's casual seating in several spaces so along the trail here there's informal seating which is the similar to the Limestone rock that we're seeing along Jonathan Carver Parkway those benches would be incorporated in this park to make it feel like more of a Carver main stay for some of our branding and then next is the center where I think it at one point a pavilion was slated to go there so we had electrical piped in there um we've changed directions a little bit we can talk about that as we continue so one of the things that we have in here is screening an electrical panel that exists there today it's not the prettiest thing or probably the safest thing if you have kids in there so contemplating a way to screen it whether that be um some type of shed and then with trees and Shrubbery around it next is the Outdoor Classroom so I met with Ryan finy the principal at Carver Elementary just to go over this idea be a good neighbor tell them about the Outdoor Classroom and they were really excited about it thinking about programming use at Carver Elementary and then the large spot is off Ironwood Drive so I think that we all are familiar with some of the challenges Ironwood has with parking for these fields so as part of this project we have 28 parking stalls you'll notice it's a oneway in One Way Out to keep it moving efficiently there's also the Pavilion here so thinking about the town home residents in Timber Creek who might not have a yard or a place that they can socialize outside this felt like a good spot to have it along with parking so if people had things that they needed to bring from their car to the Pavilion this felt like a pretty easy walk for them again some informal seating spaces there's ader de chairs north of the shelter in like a crushed gravel pathway and then as part of the Pavilion concrete ping pong table so it will stay there permanently cornhole are the four little white boxes so some extra amenities in the Pavilion and then a few other amenities added the basketball court is a big one and then the skate park which I'll talk more in detail in a couple of slides I think no I'm just talking about it right now so I think we all know how popular the skate park is in town and if you know how popular it is you probably know that RC Park is pretty outdated the company that made it actually does not exist anymore so if we wanted to have it repaired or upgraded from the company it's not possible so we're looking to change directions a little bit moving from like a metal ramp feature into a concrete skate park which um from what we know about the community of people who use these the concrete are a draw it's a regional draw at this point to have a really great skate park so we're hopeful that the area Community Park we could refurbish this to be a casual skating rank so people who want to play hockey are more than welcome to in the rank but if you want to teach your kids how to skate or just do some casual skating or hopeful this area might accommodate that once the skate park is removed from that area I'm so just to make sure I'm they're proposing to take these out yes so that is heavily used by people on this end of town so so they got skateboard they just skate just skate right here in front of City Hall perfect um so we can keep going but I want to talk about that when we kind of come back to everything so a couple examples of the skate park that I was mentioning um top right is something that would look probably pretty similar to what Carver would have so it's in Shore View so you'll see that there trees throughout making it a bit more of a feature instead of just metal ramps and then just some additional pictures from the manufacturer of the company so eating Prairie is another location b m put this together for us showing uh skate parks for that Regional draw the type of skate parks that are in the area you'll see that most of them are similar to what we have in Carter today so the metal ramps generally in a parking lot so having this new feature would likely be a draw from several communities in the southwest Metro with it being like a bow design like that do you go down into it or do you walk up to it you go down into it but don't think about like the Olympics right right no no I know I just is it at grade and you go you play Down correct okay yes so with the park there's some extensive trails that are added so you'll see the different Loops something that I talked about with Ryan is that um the dreaded time and elementary school and you have to run the Tim mile the pink Loop would allow them that mile Loop which kids are probably hating me everywhere for not yet but there are several other Loops so you'll see the yellow goes into the Townes by Timber Creek really connects that neighborhood and then blue is a quarter mile so if you're have people playing at the athletic field you can go out do a quick Loop come back enjoy the game The Pavilion that we mentioned so we are trying to think about ways that we can incorporate the work that we did on John and Carver Parkway to carry those themes through so you'll see that the pillars have a similar design to what we incorporated in the JCP project uh so the shelter would have a counter so if someone wanted to have a group for a potluck they'd be able to plug in crockpots use the counter space and then rent as we typically do through the city right now so let's go back to the all over page and we can talk about questions comments concerns oh also sorry the budget was included in the packet so there was a request from the council to stay around $1.5 million we came in at roughly 1.5 with a pretty hefty contingency so we anticipate being under budget but we like to plan for anything and everything to happen questions comments you excuse me um can you go to the next slide yeah okay um box to the oh so the horrible toilet enclosure MH um if you have it in that far do you know how far it is from the parking lot to that roughly it's not yeah okay say 100 yards maybe Max okay only reason I mentioned this is that when they come to empty that with their big trucks they're going to have to drive that trail every time to get there and so those trails are not designed to have you know vehicles on them a lot but I mean they come once a week but then we're plowing it so I'm just questioning if putting it closer to the parking lot isn't maybe a better idea I understand cuz the classroom is right there but we're saying it's only 100 yards do we now do we instead of having LIF trucks driving Trails do be put it closer to the parking lot do you have strong feelings it's a good uh good observation never thought of that we could I think the trails three in could possibly go a little bit thicker probably have to be it up a little bit this section that's an existing Trail yeah so we that's like over way or would or we move the potties closer rather than spending more money on the trail are you saying move it closer to the school parking lot or to the new parking lot well there is one by the parking the new parking somewhere in here I mean there she's by the school right that apron has probably a good spot for okay uh let's see if we go to the next slide yes this parking that one so we had talked before about lengthening that as far as we can get it because there's never enough parking you know um was that length from the last time we talked about it we didn't have a number the last time this one does and then we switch the orientation of it so I would say in general it likely looks smaller because we went for the angled parking but I would say to extend it more than that we squeeze pretty hard well is it possible to push it that way I mean well we have Park Side here but this entrance isn't built yet correct and one neither them sort of okay I couldn't figure out what that was um I guess and then have this closer or something I just would rather have more parking than less because if they don't then they're going to start parking on the streets and then we start having the problem of we're parked all over the streets and we can't there's no parking there but people can't find parking you can sign it that but that doesn't mean people aren't going to do it when the lot's full and they're coming to their family reunion yeah I'm curious if when I know parking on Ironwood is an issue right now because it's a dead end Street when it's a collector parking won't be an option there so I'm at least hopeful that we could use overflow of car element and carver station I know it's a little bit of a walk but quite a bit of a walk for people that are going to have events Trail there so is there is there a problem then with moving one of those entrances a little one way or the other if it's not built yet I think the East one's probably pretty close to set just based on the topography coming off of the fields there we could um the the West one now that I think about it that kind of ties into um heing if you zoom out to the overview figure that was more of a function of getting a a small turn lane in left turn lane so I think we could maybe move it a little bit but we're kind of stuck just developing a turn lane there for eastbound traffic so that's that's kind of what dictated that actually I wonder if if there left turn going westbound also it I think that might be older geomet tree I think there is a left turn lane for westbound Ironwood to southbound River potentially as well so it was kind of a balancing act in there of getting everything to fit together so I'd also say the parking at carber elementary like the parking that we're showing here I would say is more targeted for the Pavilion where the fields Carver Elementary is closer than where the Pavilion parking would be yeah we've got a lot of stuff in there we've got a skate park and that's depending on where people live if it's brand new I mean they're going to be driving the kids there we got basketball courts we you know not that everyone's not going to walk but or some people are going to walk but not everyone's going to so we've got the picnic shelter and the skate park basketball court the open area with some kite flying King place um and then and then the two fields which certainly if you're playing on this leftand field you might try and sneak in this lot too so and then I can't quite see this can you zoom back into the bigger one um if they're coming westbound how do you want them to get in if it's one way they're going to make a U-turn and come back through the left hand no no turn right turn right turn turn right here no sorry it's okay come on I got in late last night on the plane a little bit okay but anyways if I mean we haven't built those medians we have a lot of activity in those areas if there's a way that we can move it this way or that way a little bit and extend it cuz we've got the trail and you've got all that grassy area in between I mean the trail can be if it gets stretched this way the trail can be closer to that I think we could add some spots I just don't want the expectation to be that we're going to go from 28 to like 40 why not I no that's fine but the more we can squeak in there because you know we've had this before at Bluff Park we had to build extra parking we got it downtown I mean let's figure out how to i' build parking lots because we need them I would push back on little bit though and say a park isn't for a parking lot and there's so much parking in that area I'll argue that you're going to a park to be physically active an additional thousand steps on your way to get there won't kill you yeah well at our age but different takeen um I can I have some feedback too um but I would like yep um anyways I would like to see few more sque in there we can make it happen um the what is that me skate basketball the skate park one can we go to the skate park sure um on the right hand side is this just concept or if one's been built with those trees in the center and the Rocks right there sure that's just that is okay and they don't have any cuz kids will go up that ramp but I'm just afraid of having them like they're going to go right into like rock trees I that mean it's really minor it's really minor but this is a maybe this will help the console too so this is a concept you'll your next step you'll see plans and specifications and so like feedback like that the broad brush of like parking or being careful about that is the feedback that we need to help hold them and we prepare the plans ands okay and then for the old skate park existing one um they are a little bit far apart considering a lot of kids you know we're looking at early pre-teen and early teen years that are going there a lot of kids at least here I know down here travel up to this one themselves I'd rather leave this for a little bit and see how it goes then rip it all out right away because it's busy during the summer now if we find that the new one attracts everybody and no one's using it again for anymore then take it out but I I mean the concrete pad's not going to change concrete pad's there but that's all the time in the summer so I don't want to just take it out cuz we got a brand new one when this one can still be in use especially for maybe more this area than from the bottom of the hill up I think that's fine I don't know why I wrote down basketball play so I if I remember why I wrote to I'll let you know all right Lori go ahead um yeah so I have some feedback um first what I really really really like is the trail connectivity I just feel like that um been something that we you know want to get more of so I think that is awesome and how Loops connect some of those and that there's truly Loops um I for the parking in my opinion 28 stalls is not acceptable I know it's a park and we all you know we maybe pitch our you know certain ways we would use it but I also know that sometimes you're having to drop you know a child or a whole you know kids aorn activity and you have a parent meeting you know that you got to be there for 10 minutes so you're really just parking dropping off you want to quick do your thing or drop off birthday treats and then you got to slop back to the car or you know when you do have a field you have your referees you have you know whoever you've invited for extended family you it can really draw a lot of people um I I would really like to see a lot more parking spots even if that means we lose some grass area or you know then you if we don't have much room to lengthen it you know then maybe we got to go two you know three or four rows deep um do you have a number in mind no but I don't um but also just not the other thing too is I would like to see a larger picnic shelter um I also en Vision more of a substantial building or you know if there was something that had running water you know knowing that yes you know itd have to be locked and they have to reserve it but just you know like a not a full kitchen at all but just something more than you know an addition electrical outlets you know some type of like sink thing and that had a little um you know one or two walls so there's a little more protection from elements um on the what's uh presented where you said there's a conter does that have all Lids it would okay um so with that that all cost money um I would to me those are higher priorities we got the trail taken care of um but the parking and the picnic shelter as well as bathrooms that are more substantial I'm not comfortable with the portable bathrooms I realize or I think that there's the pros you know pros and cons of it is less likely for you know people to wreck them or is it just cheaper to fix if there's vandalism I can speak to that so I think yes like vandalism are experiencing less vandalism on Portables but I the feedback you know CU I that I presented to the team as well is that it's kind of a budget Buster when you think about water and sanitary sewer and so um we're at 1.5 so um you know you can certainly add water in sewers and indoor indoor pieces to that your budget would go up and that or you could take another amenity weight our so back to the bathrooms why portable portable because they're more affordable you know and they're well spending less time maintaining them you know from annual maintenance from vandalism uh we're paying a company to service them and so um it was my opinion that folks were going to per for an amenity like a basketball court or the Outdoor Classroom as opposed to having an indoor restroom when I this is probably TMI but it's like I'd rather use a well-maintained porta poot than going into typically those parked restrooms aren't like super a super great experience um so um but I think all of it I mean you can do whatever you know this is kind of a we don't develop kind of Parks from the ground up all too often so you know you know when you look at the scale of a parking lot there at 28 stalls so if we wanted to get to 60 imagine that parking lot double on that screen and that space so there's some things to to think about that's not a pro or a con it's just um just trying to kind of set the table for what you could expect as it relates to budget and kind of moving those puzzle pieces around if you will yeah so um so with that um I don't see a need to do the skate park now you know if it has to be years years later um and same with the basketball court to me those are lower priorities versus the things I mentioned before um and also now kind of seeing some you know estimated cost uh with it I yeah I just have a uh hard time saying yeah we're spending $280,000 on a new uh skate Park cuz to me that's lower down um for amenities and also and it's just like you know we don't know exactly how it's all going to use you know maybe you know three years it gets used a certain way you know and then you know things Trends shift or you know whatever the Dynamics are you know who's using it but those 74 Town Homes um and and they don't have a like a community room you know I would think that they could possibly benefit from a larger picnic shelter such Ty a pavilion with a little more um you know use you know be able to use it a little longer throughout the year you know have be able to like rent it out to host things so part of it too is just knowing those 74 Town Homes um are coming in anything else on no can I ask one question on the piggy B and her so with the parking um the road in front of the Town Homes is that no parking also it's private that one's private so there are some pull-offs for parking I wouldn't anticipate that there would be parking available there okay where's the closest on street parking to that if we were just to look at it on the street so there's Heartwell in Copper Hills and then it's river rock that comes through Timber Creek which one's the one that curves by the red here right there yeah okay okay so there would be parking do your cursor again show me where there would be like residential parking that you would see the stretch Okay Okay the reason I ask is because we with Bluff Park we have issues sometimes and we used to especially with soccer down there that cars would park all the way up Carver Creek Circle and the residents would like our entire street is full of cars for the field which is in turn why we added on to that parking lot to make it a little larger I'm not saying double this one but as I said before a few more but I just want to make sure where it was because I anticipate then people may have to or may start parking around there so that's something to I have on the parking is it a viable option to have like just something that's and I don't know the words for it you know but that's gravel you know not but I know then too that's a lot more to make but if it's just an occasional ends overflow okay and we wouldn't let any new development come in with a grav parking lot okay so just anything else no okay Joy Glen um The Pavilion how many people do what would we rent it for like how many people I think it was 45 to 50 oh really M okay that's larger than I thought it would be but I think it's a good size um I don't have an issue that there's no water I like that there's electrical um my thought on the bathrooms is I don't know I go to a lot of different parks around different cities and stuff like that and I'm very accustomed to a really nice porta potty okay so I'm okay with that route um and then what my other questions um I like that we're adding other amenities like the basketball um like the Pavilion um I like that we're adding a newer skate park because you're right it is it is desirable I guess in the community considering how busy it is um to add to expand more I like the idea of keeping the existing just because we'll probably have both in heavy utilization um other than that I oh I want to ask about the electrical thing that we're going to put a shed around is there any way we can use the electrical it's not it's it's a bank yeah it's for the the electrical is used for the it's the field lighting correct CH yes oh it's for the field lighting okay and it could have I think accommodated The Pavilion if we had electrical there so it's needed we need it there we need it for lighting relocating it I think was $30,000 we talked about just as okay that helps me understand it and then the two fields that we have there today they're being rented and utilized right correct and parking is at uh where do people Park yeah where do people park car Elementary on Ironwood and then at car station okay and that seems to work okay other than the parking on Ironwood I think so okay yeah there's farther down how much farther how much I mean I guess about the state size right yeah so it's no different really going between where Carver Elementary is or that lot I mean I guess I would prefer keeping the lot that's near the Pavilion really targeted at the amenities there right we can put signage and say hey if this lot is full car Elementary is just down the street Carver stations just down the street there's other places to park um and that it's really targeted for those amenities there and that for the field we ask people to try to park at the elementary school it's a I love the thought I know we can put signage and whatever but I you know I I would hate to lose open field and or skate park and or basketball court so we can just put a park shelter in a giant parking lot I would not be for that either I'm just no I would not be for that I'm just thinking making it long let's just make it a little longer sure I'm okay in optimizing it for the horizontal space that it's in but and if we if we can stretch it maybe there's an area for like drop off parking so if you have sure something quick it could be 10-minute parking just to alleviate some of that crunch car pool Ling sure and the lot that's by car all that is done right that's existing right there's not much we can really change with that okay all right okay that's all I got I'm not married to the layout I take the basketball court put it up to the left how much can we can we encroach what do you mean the open field which oh into the open field in that quadrant okay big go got it okay I got I'd move i' take this i' put it in the center here because you have a concrete here you got one here why won't you just put one in the middle extend this out extend it up and you can still put your parking a or your pick area there can you say that again did you lose me yeah are we losing the open field yes I see there's an open field there's an open field here's an open field there's Open Fields you take this trail move it into the center off your parking lot you can extend it down this way extend what the parking the parking lot you pull your parking lot this way you said this is about Max here and then you can move it up you put your basketball court up here and there's still room for your picking shelter in there that's just an opinion though can I give one counter of to something I noticed in the Parks industry is the best thing that happened is having that skate park close to the road where it's visible because there's less vandalism so I'm worried if we start talking because remember the ages that are using these are going to be pre teen to like teen right who tend to you know sometimes get a little handy with spray paint or whatever else um but the closer we I think that these things seem visible to the parking lot or still in kind of all together there's more eyes on it than it being yeah being vandalized rather than I mean you're not moving it really anywhere it's all laid out in the you're just moving your basketball court into your open field you can slide you can even slide that skate park down and move your picnic shelter up and you can almost double your parking lot size just from out anything else we need parking that's always been a problem people just don't think about parking for the fields has always been that way too we need parking that's I mean I don't think we should undiz that I'm just the layout with I mean for the F nothing up in the upper area um so what if the if we're going along with Glenn's question about the open field what if the picnic shelter got pushed up and then the parking lot became an L to get more parking if we went with removing the open field just this is just a brain stor me yeah so um I think my thoughts are I don't know that I want to be in the business of too much rethinking all the work that the Parks Commission has done thas and kind of re configuring it um I like the open space that was definitely something that we gave as a guiding principle for this so I appreciate that it's not over programmed I think that the skate park is cool and you know the one in community park is right along my walking route and I go past that at all times of the day and night even and it's well utilized so I like what you're saying Christy about see if that draws the kids up there then let's remove it but if not let's let's keep a little bit and just kind of see yeah because who knew skate park big draw like of all ages teenagers and even Littles on balance bikes and scooters so um I like that I don't think as far as the size of the shelter is it similar to like Community Park maybe a little smaller a little smaller okay um some more like the lion shelter lion Park yeah the enclosure okay cuz I'm trying to figure out that kind of um I think that that's appropriate would we love to have it larger sure absolutely are we we working within a budget yes absolutely so that's a budget Buster and so is running water and bathrooms so I get it um I'll argue that carver station has got some really nice very nonp parklike bathrooms that are just on the corner there and hours are they're open significant amounts of time um as far as the parking issue Christy I like what you say about trying to what did you say scooch scoot in a few scooch in a few more parking spots I think if we can absolutely but I don't think I don't think this is a park that's paring I got it this is a park that's really close to ample Park parking I live right by community park so I get the heartburn that overflow parking causes but that is for 4 hours on two nights a week for n weeks during the summer I would say that 90% of the time when I drive past the community park parking lot it's empty so I have a really hard time with building a parking lot that's going to be empty the majority of the time so think if we can squeeze in a few more parking spaces absolutely but I don't think that parking especially given this location where there's plenty of parking within the you know vicinity and again I'll argue you are going to either participate or to watch somebody participate in something that's active that it won't hurt you to walk a little bit to get to the parking lot and you know that said with the ascaris so we'll have all of the you know um disabled parking spots that we need to have up there so if there are any issues to that um I'm not too too concerned about parking and I certainly don't want to lose an amenity in favor of the parking and just and toally when the when there's parking on Ironwood Drive I think this is a kind of a both and situation where like Carver Elementary's parking lot is not full when I've driven by it it's the parking on Ironwood is there it's parking out of opportunity not out of um and I would and some people in this room you know remember this you know at one point probably eight or nine years ago we considered adding parking to community park and people [Music] onil thatting we very concerned about that and so I would just I would guess I would just tee up for the council perhaps the unintended consequences of like those town homes and having a parking lot and you know comparing and contract in that convenience piece with I mean I would say you know per square mile we probably have the most parking stalls in the entire city in this area when you combine carber Elementary and carver station you know is it kind of valet parking like it is on Ironwood right now no but I I do think that's out of opportunity because it is so close I mean why wouldn't you park there it's a dead end street but I also think it kind of shows people are wanting that convenience well if we're adding these amount more people to that end right we're adding more people to that end period that's how it works we're going to add skate parks and stuff we're going to add people right yeah I mean there's also a lot of residential this within walking distance that is probably just going to walk there right um well I think we've already I think we all realize that or if at least my take that I'm getting is that we're okay with keep with adding some more in that length if we can yeah so at least we get a few more sure I know the you would like more parking yeah do we as a staff we're going to need consensus on late like I I hear the kind of the brushes of add more parking the comment about the the Porta poot leaving the existing skating rink I don't know if I hear consensus though on like do you want to change the configuration do you want to make the parking lot larger do you want to grow you know take the budget up or keep it and remove an amenity we we're going to need that in order to I'd like to go back have that discussion where Glenn was saying moving some things or having the parking because I think this is our time to you know look at making you know changes um yes the Parks Commission did do a lot of um spent a lot of time I was in all those meetings but it has changed so much even since then and um yeah I think since the park commission signed up no no not since I signed up but since the things that they have looked at and just um they didn't always have a real high level View and who are the future neighbors like the 74 Town Homes a lot of times we got really into how would that person use it today so um was it was a challenge you know I would think anytime you know we have a blank slate here and have a you know create a park for uh Community um you know it is a challenge to come to you know a consensus I'm going to go back to you guys have heard me say this before our perks you know we ask these folks to volunteer their time right and they put together a plan I don't think it's our role to their plan is very guided towards what the engineers and what people present to them what I mean right that's this is our chance when we're saying Hey what if we move this what if we had that let's dig into into that conversation a little more so we can do it now and not in a couple months and also be like oh wait I I just you know don't feel good about that so all right well this is the time yeah I don't have a problem digging into it too and the Parks Commission is awesome I think they've done a great job they are advisory and bringing us this plan that we wouldn't have at all but I think if we're as a council going to make decisions we should we should hash them out now um considering that the Parks Commission presented it this way that doesn't mean the council in itself might find a tweak here there that doesn't invalidate all the hard work that they've done doesn't invalidate the plan the plan is amazing but I think as Council we have to consider the budget and everything too and some other thoughts of okay so what do we want to see what do you want to see I have another question about yeah go ahead the yellow kite is that Wetland or is that not Wetland that's Wetland the the yellow kite where the yellow kite that's that's storm water um improvements associated with Timber Creek so it's it's like filtration and ponding no touch it can't be yeah it's it's approved yeah that's yes it can't beov it's it's it's done it's there is what you're doing all right up Smith yep thank you I thought you said Ken at first oh no sry now the other one is a Welling to the E yes I got that I was more concerned about that particular area we can't put like our picnic sh there so I like the new skate park idea I really think it's awesome I think there's a need we see the kids using it down here they're going to use it up there um and especially in a park system there's a lot for very young kids to do and there's a lot for us older kids to do but there's not a lot in that teenage you know they're not playing on the playground so and I think I think those two items the basketball court and um the skate park are are a great idea the shelter when I'm trying to think about the size compared to Lions without the edge on it how many picnic tables do Invision can fit under this think like8 to 10 show there's eight on the I would I almost wish it was a little bit larger too I think considering the open field area there you can have some larger things um I don't know I again I don't know the pricing of what the you know kind of the extension of it might look like if it's a little bit or if it's horrendously once you hit the next size if you are at a billion but I think there might be a chance there to have more than just eight picnic tables so just to kind of help facilitate the discussion if you to take that and then quantify it we can come back then with a update on what that would cost so if you said instead of eight we'd rather see 12 or 10 if you can quantify that and if the council has build a consensus on that number then we can come back with that information same size as Community Park I don't I don't that one seems really big an but yeah I mean just extended a little bit so you could get maybe another four P table Yeah extra s columns basically yes thank you thank you engineer I see columns I see I see where the people are standing otherwise all the things that I mentioned for me are all the I guess I don't want to say changes but updates that I would be interested in looking at I want to advocate for the open lawn that's north of the picnic shelter I remember when we were looking at Timber Creek and I was just worried about all these Town Homes backing up to like lights coming down on some field or something like that I'm like right and so we have this nice space that's away from like the field lights um and plus I think that that open field will be really heavily used by the adjacent properties not just these Town Homes but also in these neighboring homes um and so I really like that openness there that's so close to those Town Homes I'm not sure like a buffer from The Busy yeah and you know I I worry also if I bought a house over in Timber Creek and there's a 50 stall parking lot right there I'd be like the city spent a million and half dollars to put in more parking we got all this parking at Caro Elementary we I'm just thinking as a neighbor to this park can be like I would have rather had a bigger pking shelter I would rather have a basketball court or something right than more parking I just think of the neighbors and how they would perceive a bigger parking lot I'm okay with extending it a little bit if we can but not creating a significant one good thing about putting it in before or as those homes are coming in is that you can't make it bigger is that once they're it's there that's what they know it's when you try to expand on it after they're there that's when they get n still a lot of existing homes that out I'm not I agree with you I like there'll be owners in there before we break ground on this for sure so I I I would say that adding another B if you will P tables is I would call a marginal change that we wouldn't need to there's enough contingency so we can have that as a to-do if there's is there consensus among the council that adding another or picnic table space would be supported by the console another length of columns yes sure so that I would tee up uh Portable Restrooms versus uh permanent restrooms or is the console land on that I'm okay with portable I'm okay with portable knowing what price tag of permanent would cost I am also okay with that considering the price okay I can make the compromise you're going to have to cuz we got three Bs that's why I on just the kind of the the types the type of Amen basketball and I won't go one through each of them at a time but basketball skate park and Outdoor Classroom pegnant shelter are the four major amenities is there consensus on those four major amenities yeah the other thing that I was going to say that I like about this park is I think it's use a little older which I think as considering myself in that age group like you want to play cornhole you want to play ping pong this is the for you there's not a a swing set with a baby swing in it so I think that that makes it unique in itself and then the configuration of the amenities were there actually physically located in the park we have consensus on those fine that I I would like to explore for the idea of having more parking spaces I mean that's but I think we already landed on hav really number it's just more about putting more in chrisy you're good on parking oh well scooching scooching yes we want to lengthen the one that we have didn't you say scooch I might have said something I don't scooch isn't mind but something smoosh probably say smoos closer okay and Joy are you good with yeah I'm good with the smooching okay yes okay so I think that we're we have a consensus we have a majority that we are good with the size of the parking lot yeah um so discussion on like a drop off does that seem something you will I think it's going to depend entertain and then just see where it happens if you value more spots or the drop off we can explore both options and there is I don't know if you can zoom in on that because we talked about that uh if you see where that trail head piece is there we we had talked about creating a connection there so if you can imagine we might be able to do something where there's a simple drop off there like that idea but I hear from Glenn on the so if we kind of look for opportunities to make it larger within it kind the same footprint do we have consensus on that from the group what do you mean by larger within the same footprint lengthening L the par to get more lengthening kind of pushing and pulling the without add more aisles and like going another tier that's yeah cuz at some point you're just going to have to had another aisle and another parking B is really what it comes I think that I think that just lengthen it hi Mike East West what can we do for you no we're good so Mike if you want we're having a meeting but if you're welcome it's an open meeting so you're welcome to sit down by chat if you want to come in for the meeting um so so oop sorry go ahead so I'm you're an okay on the configuration obviously people have different points of view but consensus is we're going to try to extend and push and pull more have that extended that drop off area and then other than those four pieces we're going to keep that existing skate park until we have the data that suggests that we should do something different and we're going to um find a better spot for the satellite restrooms that's closer to the parking lot that is there any that I missed or anything that we should have covered that we did oh right I like it for about that 40 I know mo okay so here would you mind just kind of sharing the next steps as far as Community engagement Etc schedule yep so we are planning to hold an open house on November 17th to share this information with the community so we'll have this version available it's available on the city website now the images have all been updated with that information so if anyone's watching if they have feedback my email is available there or give me a call and then uh we'll come back with that feedback to the council for plans and specs likely this winter construction to begin spring 20 would we be able to have it updated based on the feedback that you shared tonight by November 17th I'm going to say it might be tight to get like the parking count but we can say we're actively working on it yeah and the piece is it's a good question is like this is conceptual so we'll make sure to not that and U if there's questions related to that opportunity for us to say look similar point to what the council talked about um do you think that's do you think we should be putting it out though to the public kind of landed on where we all talked about rather than saying it's kind of this one but then it might be that one that makes me a little I'd rather present to them what we think is this is what we you know we're all landed on right the Parks Commission the council has landed here rather than saying this is conceptual we might change this we might change that one thing though which is nice then why are you having the open house if you already made all those decisions where this is like we're having the open house while we're in the concept plan because I would like the residents then to look at our decisions and say nope I what about this what about that so that we're not trying to weed through two you know because if we haven't landed and said hey here's here's where we've all come to I would rather have them look at that plan and tell us what their their thoughts might be yeah I think we can do that I mean we'll show that extra B and we'll I think we can maneuver that parking parking lot I I don't think I'll I think residents will maybe talk about the quantity but I don't the kind of the the good details that the ccil talked about tonight I don't think they'll get that granular and so I think that concept I think that'll get us there without being a huge departure because we're talking about a drop off lane or we're probably even though we spend some time on we're probably talking about maybe half a dozen additional spots there's and just there's not a lot of ground to make up there as far as space so I think it'll be hard to to differentiate and we can show that six I just I guess maybe what I'm asking is do you want us to delay the open house to kind of get approval on that conceptual kind of maneuvering that we're going to do with the parking lot is there a reason that it has to come earlier than waiting for that we need to move pretty fast at this if we want to go to construction if we want to get good construction pricing want to be able to call for when are we going for bids as soon as we can I mean if you want to take a look at it I you can make those subtle changes during the plans and specifications phase I think the question you you should ask yourself for the council should ask is do you want to get feedback on those subtle changes from residents or give them an opportunity to kind of dig with home that I would offer that they're not going to have the same vantage point that you do and so I I don't think those comments are going to be significant in the grand scheme of things but again that's just my opinion I do want to say to if I said Planning Commission I meant Parks Commission obviously I can't remember which what I said but Parks Commission ccil I don't I mean to me I'd rather have it a little bit like I said settled on and and Visually there of what the Parks Commission and the council has landed on if everyone feels differently I'm hearing you guys seem pretty urgent in getting this done soon rather than later so can I pause that cuz I don't you know we have these opportunities come up you know not you know even annually and so I don't want to leave the council with the impression that you have to hurry up and decide and so if you don't feel comfortable you know don't don't get the sense of urgency that you have to decide tonight um and we can certainly show you the updated concept it's just a matter of thing Aon is probably feeling the pressure that kind of I put on is that I think if we miss a window we are going to I would I wouldn't want to do the open house and like after Thanksgiving and into the holiday season I'd want to wait till January because I just think we lose a whole group of interested parties um and so that's the pressure that you're hearing from here no I get it I I if there's a desire to have the open house sooner but rather than later I would hope that the concept that the sketches for kind of in my mind what's a minor you know make the shelter a little longer make the parking lot a little longer I'd hope that that could get done in a couple weeks but I would imagine that you've got boards and stuff that you're putting together so it's just the piece of we next beat on the 15th and we're scheduling open H for the 17th there's just there's not a lot of things you can do with that space we're going to make it a little longer going to pick up some stalls I don't think we need to see it again is there something that you want to make sure happens a certain way I guess that's maybe a better question I'm well I mean we haven't changed it a whole lot so for me I guess I'm I I don't know why we couldn't have something that's a little more concrete of what we talked about for the next meeting we can okay I just something I'm missing here no and I was going to say I don't know that I need to see it again before the open house just as long as the sketches updated I yes yes you want to say at the next I I feel comfortable that you guys have the vision of what we have come to agreeance on or we've come to meeting of the minds on tonight yes to put that together before the open house because then if we can take any feedback from that and whatever maybe didn't get done quite to what we thought you're not asking to see this again I don't need to see I was thinking I was thinking that you wanted to approve a next concept 15th and they didn't think we could turn it around in time 17 I would just like it to look as much like we talked about at the actual we can do that okay okay that's wait we got there that was a long time to get there we got here we're going to try virtual we had really good oh okay through Co we got a lot more participation on Virtual events so we'll give it a try nobody shows up I think we could talk about other avenues we're going to give it a try good okay um thank you that was a good discussion and longer than I thought it would be I think we have about 25 minutes can we at least get a start on the housing plan are you comfortable that let's be optimistic okay that's the short one um okay housing action plan um Miss Smith so I don't have any slides since it was more of a document that needed to be worked through but we wanted to bring this back it's part of the Strategic plan part of the discussion we had with the CDA on July 19th where they brought us a plethora of really good information so some goals of the housing action plan first was to memorialize some of the things that we learned through our work with the CDA just so we have shared language shared understanding of what we know what we don't know at this point the goals of the housing action plan we're hoping that residents can read it as something that we learned and something we can share with them to say this is what we saw this is what we heard another one is just the commitment by staff and council members that when we say affordable housing we all are trying to refer to the same thing I know the mechanics can get tricky but we're all working towards the same language and then third I think is the biggest goal is that uh it's a tool for staff to have with developers so when a developer comes in and says hey I want to start a project they often ask some really aggressive questions of like what fees can you wave day one and it's like well nothing why would we do that what are you doing where if we have some of these tools adopted we can say if you want this be waved you'll need to provide X YZ so it creates a discussion for us that can have some framework from the city council that we can bring to you with some additional information so working through the housing housing action plan first is definition and acronyms mostly derived from the cda's presentation just so again we have shared language um where we started are the things that we learned so I think that collectively I'll speak for myself I think that I had a skewed vision of what affordable housing meant necessarily because I think it means different things for different people what's affordable for one family is usually not for the next 10 so finding that shared um just Vision And discussion about it and something that I think that we all know is that the Carver Market is strong and it is fierce right now and we don't control a lot of that so the market drives those prices we require infrastructure there's not much we can do to have wiggle room there but there might be some programs that we could help facilitate some affordable housing um what we learned again affordable housing likely changes based on your own home owner home ownership status um housing goals I think we part of the comp plan but then also our discussion here so I think the big thing that we all took away is that we're looking for more housing choice so above the Carver Market below the Carver Market we have kind of that 350 to 450 pretty locked in right now so what can we get below and above and then I think something that's really important about this discussion is having affordable housing allows people to spend their money elsewhere so usually in the community that they live some nitty-gritty information about residential conditions and then strategies and commitments and the tools which I think we'll have a good discussion about with this group so I'll open it up questions comments discussions I really like um that you detail the existing residential conditions because I'd like to have sort of a Line in the Sand if here's where we are today um because be great to track right over time as we move forward in our plans on the housing stock affordability can you just um add to the bullets there below what those units represent out of the total housing units so we can say the type of unit yeah so the 30% Ami or less is 24 units and that's x% of the total that's what I mean oh x% of 161 12 yes right what percentage do we have in these categories because I Envision this in the future Maybe meure measuring percentages versus maybe number of units and maybe trying to improve percentages that was my point focus on the measur all right um Chris you want to go next uh no I think Glenn anything from you I just want to make sure that for any type of apy that we have I just want to make sure we have all the infrastructure for okay anything related to affortable housing Okay Lori no I think this is super helpful just summarizes um can sorry go ahead do mind NOP I said I go last um let's see so I'm down under strategies and commitments um encourage or require residential developers to include affordable housing as part of their development proposals I think we're going to have to require if we really want to see cuz I mean since we've all been sitting in city council how can anybody tell me one developer that's come in and had an affordable proposal you know or if I'm not mistaken lar has if I'm not mistaken lar has a what is it one de in one development or in each development they will donate a house to a veteran if I'm not mistaken lard will I don't think that that's happened Carver so I would imagine they do media on that oh yeah they would yeah I don't know that we' but they've done it in a vast majority of their projects maybe but we can't count on that it's not something we control un it's nice that they do it but so I just think and I think that that's going to take a consensus from the council as to what that means but it you know you guys have heard me ask the developers when they come in like what's your affordability component and there you're reading my mind I'm going to talk before you I want to talk with Courtney well everyone but this is very specific I was going to bring this up later this evening at the next meeting um and I've been thinking about this all day at every meeting that we have a developer come in Courtney's question the but it's it's a question that would come from me as well well how many of these are going to fall in this category of affordable housing the answer is always none and then we say oh darn it we're not happy or they say well we don't have $350,000 town homes that are coming in or whatever right but but we we say that we're disappointed in it we say that we want something else but we don't ever do anything and we don't have any processes in place to do anything so and Courtney like I said you asked the question I would ask the same question and like I said today I was just think about that I'm like tonight CNE is going to say do you have any homes that are coming in at this price or what are your what's your price point going to be and then we're all going to be go but there's nothing to do about it yeah well this is the building blocks of yeah I'm agre I love this and I'm glad this is coming out because I think if we want to do these things then we have to draw that line in the stand and I'm glad you said it because otherwise it's not going to happen if we don't make it yeah so just a question what's how are you defining and CH how are you defining affordable housing I think it's using the definitions that are in here of affordable the 30% Ami the 20% and I'm not saying that we need to see a development that is all 60% Ami or less or whatever it is but I think that I and I need to do a little bit more homework but I doesn't e have a program where they demand that there's a certain percentage of affordable and they have certain parameters or the developer puts money into kind of a a fund that they save for affordable housing so that they can do their own developments and that ties in with some of like the LCD lcda funding right they often can say we're matching that project with ties into the LCD we in the same wavelength I feel the same thing I'm not saying that we're going to tell developer 60% but why is it not five or two or whatever that comes out to be of your development you 60% Ami the income threshold yeah yes you why are we not saying there's this much percentage and it can be whatever percentage of the development like why don't we say if we can legally I don't know legal council is not around but to say what you know you're going to put in a 100 houses of if you have 100% this percentage need to be 3% of them need to be at this four 5 7 19 I whatever that magic number is and I think that this is a bigger conversation for but it's a sliding scale in my mind we start by 1% of new developments for however many years and then we ramp it up um and I think you know that the presentation by the CDA was so so good to know that we could sure we could do something like kind of what I'm Loosely referring to as the Adina model or could do some of the examples that she laid out so I think that that's great um my other question that I had is you talked about um Tiff as a tool how does that look like what does that look like for residential Dev so to qualify for a tip District you would need to commit a certain number of units to being affordable for the life of the Tiff like what we did for our corre okay okay so you would in some cases use that Tiff to fund some the adjacent infrastructure to bring down the but for single family residential those folks what are they paying for property taxes go ahead see I want to see what you were going to say I wasn't going to speak to that so I don't know the answer to the property taxes okay and I'm not sure in our Market we would offer a tiff district for single family residential okay well and that's the part where I just want to make sure that were connecting expectations because I'm not familiar kind of kind of alluding to what Aon mentioned because that we've talked a lot about with the council trying to find that 202 or 275 single family home for me that's that's uh housing Choice it's not affordability under what we're putting into here we're not going to be able to require someone to provide a large lot single family home for 275,000 there isn't a mechanism that's available to cities to require that or to kind of manufacture that if you will we're talking about in most cases Town Homes duplexes Apartments um and so I just want to because we've talked about that and sometimes you know myself included the topic to kind of interconnect and so I want to make sure I understand just so that we are able to deliver on this that when you say affordable housing that you mean kind of the clinical definition of Ami um because you know the uh example that Christy brought up was a really good one with you know when you bring up like are there any affordable units in there in like the metals um well there's not an apparatus that we used to to that would make them compelled to do that um and Market is dictating that and we can't there is not an economic development tool that would reduce the price on that by 200,000 because we need to be able to show that it's connected to Ami not just we want to provide a different price point for somebody so I I just wanted to kind of um highlight that distinction and make sure that the council is on the same page and if not do how should we change this plan Etc do that my making sense okay no can I just while you're noodling um I I get that and we've talked about this at length before so I I get that and I understand that these three to 4,000 square foot homes are not going to like 450 450 450 250 like that's not going to happen and if that's not realistic and I also um who was it you guys I think it was friend of good who mentioned that why should a brand new home you know why do people need a brand new home as a first home and I I get that as well but I think that's why this is so tricky is because I don't know what the formula is for this to have that affordable housing it's called naturally occurring affordable housing for a reason is because it's it's here and it's hard to expand upon um so I I get that but I appreciate you you bringing that up again one comment to that yeah so we're thinking new construction I know largely across the group The Land Trust was an interesting idea so that would be a way to get a single family home sure maybe in one of these developments probably not brand new potentially but a single family home that could bring the price down to Affordable instead of saying oh you meet this income requirement it's apartments only to be able to say we have three Land Trust homes throughout the community so when you say likely not new the land trust would buy an existing home I would say that's more ly with their budget constraints okay you so we're talking about you're talking with the Din model we'll just go with that so can you say that again kind of so they in their developments they have a certain number of homes that are just enough to be dangerous right but just enough to be dangerous I believe it's a requirement that a certain percentage of a development needs to be affordable if they can't demonstrate it in that project they have to pay an x amount of dollars into an affordable housing fund that the city holds to work on affordable projects can so they can require a certain number of we'll just say lots to be it but it has to technically meet their Ami standards not we just don't choose what we think is a great price point that's the overall of this conversation right I'll also add that they have an an arm that we probably don't have right now that they work on affordable housing pretty proactively where at this point we're asking for it where they're working on it actively as a city I like working on it actively um my other question I'm sorry if you guys have more questions on that line okay um when we're looking at the housing stock affordability and we have the percentage and then we have the bullet point in the next over let say 2018 here was the median household um then the average cost of this average cost so does when you say the average cost of the home does this mean we're talking a lot we're talking home all of it together correct okay okay I can add that too okay it just wasn't clear to me initially not that everyone else looks at it and thinks a lot at home separately but all right um goad it's okay with the I'd kind of like to I know where I think Lor and Joy are going to be done at the next meeting of before the council adopts us I just I feel like there's more Runway here to kind of have a conversation about because you've spent a considerable at a time it's a major issue within the community we get lots of development applications um I don't want to feel scrunched for timeing and all we're getting to the end so I'd like to bring this back to another work session just to kind of um go over it have you maybe absorb it and then kind of go over it again at another work session before you bring it back if you're okay with that um cuz I feel a little bit rush I know that's just a feeling so maybe you don't feel that same way I'm okay with that I think it's a good idea but I don't I'm feeling like I'm done yeah I have enough information I don't feel like I'll have a ton more question I do have like two quick questions oh go ahead um so we're coming up with a plan but we will adopt it as a policy so this is one of the building blocks and then as we continue down the path of working through these things there might be policies that we adopt so would the policies like enhance it or like this will kind of grow bigger and this no it would be a policy this isn't a policy this is just a plan so the policy would say if you can give us four units of affordable housing we will wave your store connection Fe that's work that we would do collectively that that's not part of this okay we have talked about the tools right at the bottom I mean that's really having common language and that we want to move forward have theol policy policy yes okay um is this a little bit like than like Park dedication where okay if you're not going to put the park you know within your development then set aside money and then we as the city will be stewards of that and um like what's it can be like the Adina it's not listed in our current tools okay the Adina method would be uh a good way to think about that I'm not sure at Carver's capacity that we would be able to do a program at that level I think we could start small maybe build into those things I think it would be um more policies of if you give we give yeah if you don't want either you don't get the benefit so Bren when you're saying to do this do come back do a little more work on this to come back are you envisioning that adding some more of those tools before it comes back because if you want to do that I'd be happy to look I mean kind of go through it again but I don't I don't think we've spent time kind of running through what these tools are and how they apply and like to use the Dina model I mean that's a very complex model that I'm only familiar with one or maybe two other cities using and when you're taking that money in then you have a responsibility to spend it and I I don't know if we create enough like money by volume to actually do a project on her own so like that is in kind of one bucket the other bucket is I'm not I don't feel like we're in a position where we use the Gilbert property they come in let's say they're going to build $650,000 homes you know I don't I'm not sure the I feel from the council that you wouldn't be wondering why we couldn't get them to build $300,000 homes on one of the lots I'm not feeling like I'm hearing that and maybe I'm missing that say that again you're not you think we're going to ask or you think we don't understand why they can't do that I'm not I feel like you'll you'll want that and I'm not sure I I have the tools or team has the tools to like deliver on that because I'm not sure we we're on the same page because there's a big piece of this Ami and then there's another piece of like the $300,000 home um and there's not a tool out there that I'm familiar with that kind of arbitrarily would bring down a home to fit anyone you know all of us are going to have individual feelings on what an affordable single family home is and if we pick 300,000 CU that's I'm just using that number because we've talked about it a lot like I want to make sure that we can deliver on what you're asking and I'm not sure that I know what you're asking for right now well what I would like to see is I'm don't expect the next development to come in that this is going to be ready to go but if we never get started we never get started so I'd like to look at some tools on how we can do it like we have the land trust in here but maybe you know Edina has this way of doing things that doesn't mean we have to take a through z of what Ed are can we pick pieces of it that are going to work for us maybe we can't maybe it has to be all or nothing I don't know that yet but I would like to see some options about how we can look and doing this in the future so that we're not suddenly we're built out and we oh well never happened right and that's why I want that's why I want to continue the discussion there's not a we're not crunch for time to your point like we can bring back some of these additional examples of tools and how they're applied and the projects and results that they've come up with and so I just I feel like there is a little bit more space you know and I kind of like to talk about like how our naturally occurring affordable housing has come to be if you look at where it's where it's like quote unquote is that it's the downtown maybe Eagle Ridge and maybe uh the Detroit condition well those are some of the oldest existing stock and so you know I would almost I would Advocate that you know on like the neighborhood that I live in and in 20 years people are going to be talking about that being quote unquote naturally occurring affordable because of where we were at 20 years Shades I think there's a lot more to talk about the council's talked about again you you're taking the lead I just think there's this is interwoven between a lot of things that we do I I think there's part of it though that our our city of Carver Town Village of Carver was so small that our natural curing affordable housing is a really small area because we were small for a really really long time so where chasa may have some more of that but because those neighborhoods are aging out but they had more of them yeah I think what I hear you saying and you're maybe not saying it as as directly is when we think of development we think of new homes and homes going holes being dug in the ground and homes being built from scratch affordable housing will not look like that ever but I and I think I kind of get stuck in that that trap a little bit too because that's our frame of reference of development in Carver right we're not we're building bigger pricier homes because that's what the market allows for so it is kind of figuring out what those Land Trust options are with existing homes and that's a a trap that I fall into a little bit is thinking of development new homes affordability that's not going to happen but seeing what our other options are and what that means and yes it might not be the Adina model because we do not have the value coming in but you're right like you got to walk before you run and if we don't start planning now we'll never get there and I I support it I just I don't mean it that you don't when I think of affordable housing I think of the carb Crossing project yeah and I just want to be sure that when you're saying affordable housing you're thinking the same thing and if you're not then I want to know what that is and be able to like react to it because I feel like this document when it talks about affordable housing it's talking about projects like car or crossing yeah and I just want to make sure that that's where the five of you are all at because I want to make sure that when you're asking asking for something that we can deliver it to you but why is the Ami why when we talk about the affordable housing so we've got these the Ami percentage you know bulleted out we can't land anywhere but the lowest one at this I mean well the the car Crossing is 60% Ami so that mean that's a higher tier yeah wait hold so I think what you're saying is a single family home we're not going to hit 60 to 80% Emi right right right and I just want to make sure because six months from now may maybe be kind of forgotten about it and we're kind of bring it up if you say well why aren't we add this $300,000 home yeah yeah I want to make sure we can deliver that because that's yes the best way for us to do that is to make sure we know what you're asking for and for us to tell you whether we can do it or not do you understand that Joy yeah do you understand that Glen yes it Lor I understand that yeah um can I just ask one thing while we're at that can you know you break down you gave us the the median household income is almost 115 could you break that down to what the 30% Ami is and what that means in a rep payment or a a house value because that's L I feel like we need a t just to be able to like look at that so that we know what that means and I think that hopefully that'll keep us out of that trap of yeah are you talking in terms of a mortgage payment like a rent payment and a house like rent mortgage or like a house value what that means uh to not be cost burdened correct okay yeah within that you know cuz 50 to 60% of Ami and then yeah you what is it rent or mortgage 30% yeah does that make sense yeah okay we did a similar exercise for like Carver Crossing cuz some of their rents were like $8 $900 which was similar to what a mortgage or rent payment would be with some of the Spring Creek Town Homes remember that um so that's a good idea yeah I just it would be nice to see it um any other questions thoughts somebody had to have done this before somewhere in this country we're not that you know what I mean there got to be something we can find somewhere no I appreciate question to continue this conversation so thank you um city manager report do you want wait I don't have any okay Council requests is it okay if we wait and do that during our meeting sure all right with that I would entertain a motion to attour make a motion got a motion by council member mcnight second sorry I heard Christy first second by council member mock all those in favor say I same sign