all right um let's um call the meeting to order please stand for the pledge pled flag States stand indivisible all right good evening sorry about the delay we had some tech difficulties and our work session ran a little bit long um so I will entertain a motion to approve the agenda I'll make a motion to approve the agenda a motion by Henry second a second by council member Mack any further discussion all those in favor I opposed motion carries right um this is the point where we would welcome any Community comment for anything that's not on the agenda um if you all here for the public hearings you'll have your opportunity to speak anyone hear anything that's not agenda anything not on the agenda okay sorry I'll try to speak up okay um let's see no presentations and reports we will move into the public hearing um Mr Lanos oh right okay perfect sorry about that my apolog Josh it was Dan's name is right I'll make a to open a public hearing motion by member Henry second second by council member s any further discussion all those in favor say I I hi hi post the public hearing is open all right mam mayor members good evening I have a presentation prepared here to kind of go over the 29 imp 2019 Improvement project um and the assessment hearing kind of covering from beginning end um a little bit of a storyline of the project and of course towards the end we'll go over the final assessment amounts and the project costs get into it assessment hearing format so we'll talk about a little bit of a review of the project timeline um resident engagement summary project summary review what we've been and how things currently look out there completed improvements review final assessment final costs and then get getting into next steps and explaining what we have left finish on the project so there's a long list here of items that have been checked off from the beginning um to to today um starting back um May of 2018 if I get that right um walkthroughs we set up neighborhood meetings um authorized and completed appraisals completed feasibility studies notice to residents went out mailings two public open houses were back to back and then prior to the public hearing hearing Improvement hearing was held approved the feasibility study final design and Order improvements all these steps have been completed um continued Council Workshop review a third open house Specs open bids in Ed the contract an additional neighborhood meeting from the drive to area and uh have substantially completed the constuction for the project all the items that we've been start to finish to today uh we have to hold the assessment hearing which we're holding tonight that's the next step moving forward as far as const complete the punch list and final Turf and Landscaping will be completed in the spring so just a kind of an overview or rundown of what we've uh been doing as far as resident engagement U this first slide kind of shows the neighborhood meetings that were held prior to actually even the design of the project um we set up times and specific times and dates for each individual segment met with folks out on the street went through their concerns and their issues um jotted down notes um and actually walked the streets prior to like I said even having a a design um in place and then along was an informational handout it kind of went through Pro overview again and just to give them something on paper to read at that early stage of the project following that we put together um some resident guides the assessments for the project were getting a little bit complicated and because we had multiple areas with different assessments we broke it up into three different so each individual property in their respective SE segment got a resident guide outlining um at that point for assessments and project costs and next steps and there's a timeline and those also indicate when the improve or the public houses were going to be held additional meetings so the the meeting that were held were were like I said two open houses in November we tried to hit a wide range of times there you can see we had an evening one and one during in case folks were tied up in the evening they could hit the one during the middle of the day and then we did add that third open open house in January to the council kind of reviewed some of the improvements um for different aspects of the project then the public hearing was December 3rd and then uh last slide on this engagement we had a number of other things that we kind of mve forward with um leading up to we had newsletters that went out um like I said stepping up ramping up towards um construction December January May newsletters went out um outlining construction timeline to expect and getting those uh phone numbers out there for people to call in case they had questions and need some answers on things um assessment summary letters another letter went out to the kers dri area because those were kind of some of those assessment numbers are getting a little bit confusing so we did send out another letter on that um and then just general website updates and notifications went out throughout the construction process and those who signed up for the web or the emails got an email blast of those website updates as well and then uh we did a whole bunch of construction notices so anytime anything happened that was going to impact a property or a chunk of properties um we handed out actual U paper notices on what to expect during construction so now I'll just kind of run through uh basically the gist of the project from the beginning to the end so we had failing Pavements um that we were trying to address with poor drainage and subsurface um po drainage as well um pedestrian facilities we kind of took a holistic approach as to looking at what uh sidewalks and what connections needed potentially needed to be made um and then the utility from the utility standpoint um where we at do we need what do we needs Improvement what has been failing and not existed so looked at basically everything um within the project areas and of course it was broke down into four major uh project locations at Cur dri neighborhood Helm Drive and the alley were lumped together Sunny Ridge Drive and wildwood um got them together and then the Spring Creek rail connection narrowing it down speaking just to the Cur dric neighborhood um we went moved forward with a 32t wide Street to allow parking both sides um converted it from rural to Urban so adding curban gutter to find that street Edge be able to control drainage and also for longev longevity of the pavement additions were added so the of kers and then the alternate was approved to add the sidewalk to the west side of uh Dri from kers to Forth Street so all all of those things uh move forward sanitary sewer improv this neighborhood currently prior to project did not Municipal sewer everyone out here had thetic system so we added gravity sewer lines to basically down the center line of the streets that were improved and uh between two houses along a property line down to six and services out toway as part of the Project Connect um and final step will be in of ongoing is the private portion of it so private contractors are hired by the owners to connect from the RightWay line to their building house they need plumbing permit to do that additional um utilities we added water M uh this did not water M prior to the project everyone was on their own individual well water 8 in water Ms were added within the it's typically typical installation um hydrants for fire protection were installed lines small lines were added out to the RightWay for each property same as sanitary sewer again private work needed needs to be done from the RightWay to the buildings PL and those two sewer and the water be complete prior to August of 20 this kind of a cross SE we've all seen this ready but I I that's interesting um kind of weave and nest of different and and things that are under the ground that you don't soal installation is the the deepest uh sewer down usually the center line Street off to one side will be the water main which isn't quite so deep but below the frost line with laterals out to each property and laterals to the and on the other the sewer from the water St sewer it's just a of pipes and catch basins placed at the curb line to collect that run and uh divert it to the storm water through the storm water conveyance system to whatever drainage ites at the bottom of the hill now just a series of some before and after pictures which I'd like to show here to kind of get our frame of reference so this is what it looked like the project area before we started so this is Dri just south of kersel that's dri intersection there there's my post construction photo so you notice the big changes are the C pretty big change um you can kind of see some of the storm intakes there and then sidewalk 5 foot sidewalk that was added at the back of so this is taken just north of that intersection again uh obviously the the pavement was failing in this location the drainage was very poor as you can see by the water standing in the on the edge of the pavement there post construction C and gutter grinage is working much better driveways restored s installed similar situation this is on pre and post another one where we had some drainage issues right in front of a driveway the post construction pretty good and we'll move on to Elm drives so the the summary synopsis for Elm Drive is um we converted the roadway from Urban or from rural to Urban again adding the curban gutter the roadway width changed from ft to 24 roughly that 3 and a half to 4T withd increase um standard Street section installed three and half Ines of black top 8 in of aggregate base 12 in of sand Urban gutter water services were replaced on Elm Drive um the water M stayed in place um and then of course multiple geometry options were reviewed at that South and to kind of decide and and give us that blend between impact and usability functionality we came to the smaller called the sack turn around it's what we ultimately landed on along with the elimination of the connection between Elm Drive and the Drive West which where we added the 10-ft trail connection with head ramps on both sides so here's a pretty picture so this is on the south end looking North where the CC is today another one kind of looking North about halfway down the street this is looking to the south at the culdesac course notice the curban gutter here's looking North from the culde quite a significant change there Trail connection a little sign for our trucks no vehicle traffic and about halfway down looking North so that's how I home drive shook out moving on to the alley improvements started with the aggregate surfacing on the Alley converted it to section and we used our our standard Street section three and a half inches of black top 8 in of aggregate base 12 in of sand um went to a 12 in 12 and with the alley improvements alley improvements um consist of between Broadway and Oak and then from Oak Street to the levy this is po um construction photo a little bit shaded here but you can kind of see how we Blended in some of the bigit driveways pavement surface is a little here but a representative for the Post Construction condition Sunny Ridge Drive in lywood park here again we went from a rural section to an urban 29 ft allowed parking on one side of the street um stayed the same width 32 feet was an exting urban section the same add of the kban gutter um quite a few storms impr long Sunny rid um complaints of of drainage within that that section we're able to remedy through storm sewer standard Street section here again 3 and a half in of space of sand sidewalks were considered and decided to not be included similarly lighting being considered and not added in a preconstruction photo so this is lwood looking to the similar Vantage Point Post construction just moving a little further west reconstruction construction then a little further west and post there is a pheron of landscaping currently done out there but we're not finished that's one have to um 100% in the spring is landscaping and turf rest Spring Creek Drive Trail there was a gap in the trail from where they left off with Creek Creek development between there and mount H that taken care of at an 8ot wide binous Trail and cban gutter to manage the that's like today so you can see the cban gutter defining anding the streets and the trail is we'll move on the financing and fund section so the project is supposed to be financed through or will be financed through the sale of a 429 General obligation Bond um Minnesota statute 429 General obligation bond for Street sanitary water M and sidewalk items then there's a number of city funding sources plan to be used to fund project including special assessments just kind of a review of where we were and where we we with the assessment methodology and how the assessments were calculated um we did calculate assessments as part of the feasibility study so we looked at it from where we would from a perspective of the feasibility study and then we also did the inde dependent appraisal special benefit analysis which was separate from the feasibility study so those two separate um ways of looking at what the assessment should be and could be we also um basally paid assessments or within all areas and then um keeping in mind that practice we have been giving a 50% Street assessment credit Corner Lots which may receive of assessment at some point in the and then just a note there assess of 8020 um statutory caveat that we have to assess at least 20% 20% minimum to move forward the bond it's just really it's just statute we the city uses the St the 429 bonding mechanism to assess a minimum of% Improvement us you know what I'm gonna if you don't mind we're gonna Jos continue his presentation and then we'll open it up for public comment and you can ask those questions as he okay so payment op so there's a number of different items that I'll go through here um other those in your prepay without interest for 30 days from the hearing tonight the assessments will be certified uh with the county auditor they will go on the tax rooll anded through your normal taxes beginning in 20 20 be split first half second half just like you normally would pay your County taxes that'll it'll be added to that number um in any after year you can pay the assessment in full if you pay it in full prior to November 15th then you only owe that Year's interest if it's after November 15th you'll owe the following years interest as well so that November 15th is kind of a a good date to find just on with the payment payment options your assessment's not paid full it like you mentioned it will be added through a tax statement um the bond term of 20 years and an interest rate of um% over the bond rate or total of 42% so 4 and a half% over 20 years partial payments would not be allowed so that would be um to pay it in full or you have to pay what's on your tax statement year deferment of payment or is also allowed so you need need to start paying your payments year one the taxes so assessment summary had 6 properties located um to the project areas um 65 proposed to be assessed um now we're the street sewer and water assessment is 19,200 and that is for the kers district neighborhood so those of you who are getting a street sewer and water Improvement it's 19,200 which was reduced by 5800 from the orinal appraisal remember I men that appraisals were independent appraisals were done and that appraisal came at 25,000 where the streets were in water and it was lowered down to, of you on Sunny Ridge and Elm Drive just receiving a street benefit is 8,000 and then those of you who are along the alley at the alley Improvement your assessment is $1,200 total get into a little bit of the private utility to this project as I the sewer and walk of the city project the services out to the RightWay line adjacent property owners were responsible to get those from the right to their to their house um and there was some additional cost involved with that so I'm just going to outline those here um utility connection fees there's a city fee of $834 council sewer fee of $2,485 City Water fee of $2,047 City Water leer charge of $39 and then we gave a credit of $800 um for past charges paid so the utility connection fees 845 then the second component is the private utility installation cost each homeowner had to hire their own contractor dig in the sewer and water that's what that represents the approximate range that cost is between and and that be pretty similar to what the actual costs were when I saw some of those numbers um and each property is individually unique so there each one has a little bit different for that given the fact that there were additional costs for this neighborhood the city did decide to allow um basically a financing mechanism to be um chosen so City allowed cost to be financed by the city and assess back to the property owner if the prop um the assessment terms would be the same as what the project assessment will will be sold at 20 years at 4 and a half% um with that the property owners had to um wave their right to appeal the find the assessment and letters were sent out outlining those options that I just mentioned each property owner was given three options option one was to have the fees portion assessed two was to have portion and their utility connection costs assessed and option three was to basically pay all costs out of pocket so that letter went out to all to the entire neighborhood um we did receive most back um this is how it broke out 10 owners to assess their connection fee 11 elected to assess their connection fees and private utility installation costs and five owners elected to pay their fees and installation costs out of pocket uh we'll run down the the final numbers so total final project cost came in at 2,648 26 total assessed amount is 99371 total estimated S cost which is just the balance there of 1,654 285 bonding amounts 429 bonds 2,698 753 utility Bond 1,595 367 and then again the final bonding rate came in at 2 and a half% um Plus is the assessment rate of 45% at a 20-year term and reiterate the assessments are capped based on the appraisal and then also lowered based on previously paid costs Next Step so tonight obviously we're having assessment hearing and once we're through that the final assessment role need to be adopted um as far as Construction um the construction project is under winter suspension and we will pick things up again in the spring to complete Turf restoration Landscaping items and the final binus wearing course needs to go on all of the streets and that'll that'll happen that'll begin right away in the spring 2020 and that's right um those wishing to address the city Council should come forward and state their name and address for the record City staff will collect all questions posed to the who respond after um all have addressed the com after all the comments received the public will be closed no further comments oned at this so anybody has questions comments if you want to come up um sit there and your name and address for go ahead your address Mr doing is um Brent and Josh are wri question and answers so everybody's done asking their questions they're going to answer those so thank you think you just did it but there thank you for does more do thank you anybody else this is kind of the um may hit a couple of these um as relates to Mr Wilson's question on payoff so you can uh pay off the assessment in 30 days with no interest and then the um prior to the 15th of each year you could excuse me 50th of November each year you can pay and avoid interest charges but if you pay after then you're correct that year um I think Mr dwalter you got your question answered related to you would your assessment wouldn't change by the city coming in and installing that drain um relates to to partial payment Rene's question um and I might need some clarification from you but um there is no partial you'll pay the amount based on a a schedule amort never say that word amortization schedule over 20 years at 4 and a half% so it's broken out over those 20 years but there and I I'll defer to the City attorney there isn't any partial payment that I'm aware of uh that provides additional options for that uh the corner lot credit is we have a um supplement to the for the that credit for properties that the city normally would wouldn't or properties that would normally be assessed on an adjacent Street project in your case you'd likely be assess for a Fourth Street Improvement so that's um in the council packet and so if they're they're willing to take action on that that's how that would be resolved and I would would to the City attorney on Mr Hammer's question related to real estate taxes I'll take Mr Hammer's question the there are certain credits on real estate taxes candidly based on age disability veteran status those apply to the real property tax taxes they don't apply to and I should point out that's statutory that's that's not anything here that that's the legislation the answer is no the city has no policy or process for doing okay questions before we close the hearing I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing motion by council member Henry I'll second second by council member Mo any further discussion all those in favor say I I oose motion carries can I ask a question you may go ahead the on page 49 of the packet Josh um the 2.64 8026 number does that include the spring restoration and everything in it yes we did make some assumptions on what's left to pay for and so that would include that as well okay thank you Brent can you talk a little bit about the corner lot question sure uh no the city doesn't have a formal assessment policy though so this is a prerogative of the the council so you're not required to provide a credit but past practice has been a a corner lot which has two Street frontages would typically be assessed uh based on past practice at 50% of their street assessment if the other side wasn't improveed so if you that's um on the corner of Elm and fourth right now Elm was improved and there was an assessment for $8,000 but no improvement work was done on Fourth Street and so it's conceivable if it hasn't happened already that at some point for Street will be improved and there' be a a assessment of $88,000 again for Fourth Street and so because it wasn't you have a question Glenn yes wasn't Fourth Street wasn't there wasn't Fourth Street improved y I'm just giving an example okay that in this instance Elm was improved ,000 assessment fourth wasn't and so at some point in the future for Street will be improved and there'll be theoretically another $88,000 assessment so rather than giving that property on $116,000 worth of Assessments City council's past practice has been 50% on both projects since they're at corner lot now we do have what I'll call re rear Frontage where their backyards are facing a street now those typically haven't been G given a credit uh for example there's properties on Dietrich and properties on Sunny Ridge that backyards are adjacent to six uh but the city would not attempt to specially assess those properties because they don't have Frontage it's rear access um and found it it's also a collector but we do have a property on Sunny Ridge uh that had made on Sunny Ridge but it was north of Sunny Ridge and so that section of live Parkway wasn't improved so we're recommending a credit and then there's also a property on Sunny Ridge and six on the Far West End they have their house faces 6 Street uh so we would attempt to specially assess property uh for a six Street Improvement where the balance of the homes moving East I'll have property backyard on to six we would attempt to assess those so it's that's the long and short of it I'm happy to answer follow-ups cuz I know that was somewhat complex I have a followup on um so everything that we're looking at assessment role has those lot the corner lot credits assumed in talk there are in the council packet that went out on Friday there is an role that go five locks that Brent is talking about that potentially the council could to give a corner credit to the original assessment role which is Council does not those credits so Ops are a little bit of Chinese restaurant take assessment you could take the assessment role which has the five Corner credit you could do something else you know it's largely decision this is an issue that came up very late and you Mr Amica is trying to operate on a principle of what I would call fundamental fairness consistent with some past practices of the but it's it's essentially a policy decision from the council okay um for what it's worth of credit seem it's going forward looking at in our packet um I also um Brent could you question sure so there are several different ways a city can borrow money one of them is called uh $429 which is basically a special assessment and so what that says if the city's going to borrow money let's say the city's going to borrow $100 at least 20 of those dollars have to be assessed to benefiting properties of that project um the City attorney can correct me if I'm wrong but in essence what that does is the state is forcing the 20% so that the city doesn't use that bonding type for other types of projects so it's if you're going to use it to do a Improvement project whether it's streets or some other piece they want to make sure that there's a fundamental infrastructure piece to that fair to say yes you good I just wanted to Circle back on the assessment um comments thanks for explaining that a little bit better Brent and um I agree definitely with Courtney that especially following past and this credit seems to make good sense to me so I don't have any issues with going forward with the new are we calling it the new assessment role is that our amended amended assessment role thank you for answering all that with the amended assessment roles is that going to affect the bond Bond rating or anything no okay thank you and we're still above that 20% yes Amed any other further questions entertain a motion so on the motion to adopt the resolution um how how do you want us to address it through do you want us to just stay amended counil the resolution is referen ex assessment role I think you should make it clear in your motion that you're adopting the amended assessment rule that was in the council packet but the Practical reties that will be the rule that will be to the resolution so that will be the final action Mr X and I have talked about that in advance so just make it clear that so there's an oral record that you're adopting the uh the revised one that was in Friday's back that will be attached to the resolution all right I'm going to give a shot of this and you tell me if I did it wrong that's sure here for Harris so motion I would like to make a motion to adopt resolution 158-11 19 for the amended assessment role as seen in the revised pack the revised assessment role that was included in the packet sent out on Friday okay I'd like to make a motion to adopt resolution 15819 for the I can't even do it I'm sorry rised assessment for the revised assessment role that was included in the packet correct thank you for the 2019 Street Improvement project I'll second that you got the easy part on that one so we have a motion by council member mck a second by council member Henry any further discussion all those in favor say I I opposed motion carries all right moving on to item 6.2 the delinquent utility certifications to the count thank you all for coming uh let's see so um needed to opening so we will open the public hearing for the thank mayor and councel we have on the agenda for this for this evening is the delinquent utility certification and staff Works continuously throughout the year to collect these unpaid charges and I specifically call out Renda aftera pays a lot of attention to this and spends a lot of time each month working through this whole process and but despite these efforts we still ended up with a few certain charges that have not been paid therefore on your October 21st meeting you set a public hear GRE for thetion of the assessment which is happens to be tonight and if you adopt uh resolution with the certification role the proposed amounts certifi certified to the Carver County auditor unlike the street assessments this one is payable for one year so they would pay this with their 20 taxes and that would be at 5% and then a onetime charge of $5 administrative fee So based on that I would ask if there were any questions any questions yes um 433 D dri is this one this name Rings is this family occur for this particular address yes they have been assessment role in the past did they pay it previous years that's through their correct they were assist in that it would be paid on their taxes that is correct all right I have a couple questions the dollar amount to get up is it been like two three months several months so I'm not familiar yeah this is basic this is basically for the past year for a full year correct have we I noticed to that there's three and neighbors that were part of the dedri drive is there any correlation to are they project or are they not that this is separate than Street Improvement well this is for the storm water charge all residents pay it just will these chosen not to pay they are also in the project to be connected to city water and sord in the future so we have a different process that they would be involved with which is what we use when residents actually have sea water and when they don't to a point of we can turn their water off right now with just the storm water fee those three residences are in the past that only had storm water and so that option going forward into next year that will be a different situation with these three properties questions great um those wishing to address the city council come forward and state your name and address for the record after all comments are received the hearing will be closed no further comments will be received on this issue at this meeting there any comments Anders of public here with that I think we can close the public hearing I'll make a motion to close public hearing motion by council member Sarah second by council member Henry any further discussion hi motion carries I will make the motion to adopt resolution 15719 adopting and certifying Le second to the motion motion by myself Mayor Johnson and second council member s any further discussion all those in favor sayos motion carries Mayor Johnson I would like to as we move ahead to the consent agenda there are two items that I would like to pull off the consent ready [Music] I um I would so do you want me to make a motion removing those two just you can just pull those okay um I would like to pull items um 7.2 the approved minutes of November 4th regular meeting and 7.9 approved resolution accepting the donation from the alliance club that was motion no he just and then do you want me to go right into talking about so what the our is they're pulled and then uh you may or another council member may make a motion to adopt the consent agenda excluding 7.2 and 7.9 once that's acted on then you we take 7.2 and 7.9 as separate items I'll make a motion to approve the consent agenda taking out 7.2 and 7.9 for further discussion second okay we have a motion by Council and a second by counc Henry discussion I right of okay on 7.2 for the minutes it's very minor but it does say um under council member Henry he want everyone it's under communication sorry um the school referendum not the school reference is on the ma it says the school reference is on and then for 7.9 I just thought that we should give some acknowledgement to the Carver Alliance club for donating um a decent sum of money towards our new holiday lighting for the downtown area the car donated 5,000 for um some of the holiday Lighting on the street lights downtown and I just wanted to give a special thank you to that gr and I'll reiterate it I knew and things for haunted out I knew it was holiday decorations but I didn't know was the new lights yeah the reason will this uh tie into like a a tree lighting or a haven't looked at the calendar I'm sure there's an event coming up there is tree lighting is actually this weekend um I'm sorry not this weekend November 30th okay um I know Mayor Johnson is actually flipping the switch but I don't know that the street lights the street decorations come out at the same time that's I don't appreciate the Lions supporting and keeping downtown Festival that is going to do let us extend the street holiday decorations so that will be very cool to send that out um right that excuse me mayor council so uh if you would like you should consider adopting then the minutes from whatever that meeting was was as amended Mock and then a separate motion related to accepting the donations it's a resolution so each of those should be separate actions got it I'll make a motion to adopt 7.2 off the consent agenda um as amended I'll second we have a motion by council member Henry and a second by council member Mo any further discussion I I opposed motion carries and I'll make a motion to approve uh the resolution 15619 accepting the $5,000 donation from the carbon Alliance on the con a um we again have a motion by counc member Henry and a second by council member further discussion all those in favor say I I opposed carries great um let's see no un business no new business council member Communications um I have a bunch of updates last um Thursday Brent and I went to the Joint meeting of the Minnesota city in the league we of really good speakers there was a panel discussion on how C City to meet the needs of an involving um the deed commissioner spoke the Minnesota housing commissioner Jennifer H and again haror a special shout out for our work in the area of Workforce housing um let's see we had a Southwest Transit meeting last week where we worked on strategic vision for that group um Wednesday is the chamber annual um other things um hoping everybody will join me in keeping Brian sk's in their thoughts as they Dad recently and quite unexpectedly um and then ping the cha Hawks football team State Tournament on November 30th great uh we had an HPC meeting on Tuesday um we talked we had lots of Windows to talk about so that's really what the whole whole night was had a home onl some storm approved and then we had um some replacement window for St Nicholas church and Ted fur there to see that back now in De all I Planning Commission will be Thursday night so don't have any updates as a that's all I got uh just have one thing um I wanted to thank Dan and and shame Josh is in here Josh and Michael Jabs and Pat for their work on the 2019 project the city Engineers have a very tough job because they're expected to be right all the time numbers um but the 201 project is easily the most complex and challenging project I've ever worked on an improvement project and I don't think we could have done it without Bolton and mink it was great to have them from their communication to how they handled resident concerns um this doesn't mean you can screw up the next one but very good but um it was it was to have them on the team knowing that they were going to handle because there is uh we impacted residents this last project with how disruptive construction was asking them to do for water andur so it's great to have them on thank you we Echo uh thank you and appreciation for right nothing else I'll entertain a motion to adjourn I'll make to adjourn motion by council member Mock and a second by Mayor Johnson any further discussion all those in favor say I I post which carries good even