5:30 I will call this work session to order first we have uh residential streets speed limit discussion uh with front and Commander will leave you uh good evening mayor and Council so uh bringing this back so part of this is a refresh from uh the conversation the council had about your 2024 Community survey there is a few specific questions related to uh reducing speed limits on local streets um and if you recall back in August of 2022 there was a few residents that reached out asking uh the city to look at reduced speed limits in the metropolitan is a not sure the year maybe Dave you can help me it's a recent phenomenon where city's been reduced that speed limit from 30 to 25 maybe within the last 5 years 2019 I think 2018 um so we have a fairly comprehensive uh put together a fairly comprehensive informational packet primarily from the cities of uh Victoria Anda um just getting some anecdotal information uh that they had related to that at the council at your last meeting did talk a little bit about uh speed limit changes and enforcement techniques and so we invited Commander wolen to come out talk about enforcement and perspectives on uh reducing speed limit uh we also have some information on uh the financials related to implementation Cho should you choose to go that far uh the one thing I will point out is the most of our speed limit signs as you can see from the backet are on our collectors and so if you would switch to a 25 M per hour on residential you um we work with a sheriff's office and our engineering team on this but you probably want to add a whole bunch more just because if it's not posted it's on a residential 30 I think is the expectation um so with that I think I'll maybe just uh turn it over to Mike on just based on what you saw in the packet Mike if there's any this big pictures perspectives on uh one going from 30 to 25 and then maybe you could just share with the council uh what enforcement strategies you're giving to the deputies that are out on the streets from a speed perspective on enforcement U warnings Etc then whatever questions the council has absolutely thank you Brent um so cover on the the law enforcement on the operations aspect things so we have the city work plan that is um generally done with the liaison whether it's brand input from the council as it relates to what are the priorities when you want um or or on that traffic expectation so that you know cities can say we really want you know the you know the education presence and in this instance uh you know we've got a number of different areas where speed has been focused on um so when we look at from an enforcement perspective um I mean typically we haven't enforce in a sense or nor do we want to create some false expectation with the citizenry that by changing the speed we would you know we're going to be cited for 28 and 25 and those types of it's just not you can but typically without kind of the haven't seen it in in the court process where it's held up through court if somebody's entitled to process and it's been contested in court words unless they're paying it outright typically with somebody's um going to look at that where a judge is um working through the I'm not a judge so but when when it comes to that but typically from that enforcement perspective we've taken that approach I mean when we look at things in inrees speeds we focus different areas when it comes to to speed or whatnot when it comes to um you know school crossing schools in the area when we focus on some things where we um prioritize you know that enforcement where it might be less egregious and speed because of the nature of the area with what it is but um so a lot of that is in coincide with what community expectations are Council you know you know helping identify what you want your policing to look like when it comes to some of those things um so we can have more of that discussion about that we do different waves through toward zero death through different things but when we have those um initiatives where there are Grant dollars focused on traffic enforcement to reduce crashes and um you know effort to minimize injuries um and property damages relates to crashes those are focused on our higher areas where we have a lot of that and I don't and and looking at you know crash data when I looked at the city map or whatnot we're targeting these a lot in the residential areas we're just not having crashes or a lot of them in the residential areas um other things that come into play um you know I took a look at the the the slide with mind do where the studies show that you know the the speed patterns and little change in that by reducing to 2 you know just create more Speeders now if they're continuing to travel at 30 mph which was the closest time um you know with that when we look at um you know kind of where these were and I just printed off this map so probably the same thing but a lot of things in there um you know with what we see from law enforcement at times engineering comes into play you got a lot of Curves in your different roads if you got on street parking on each side of the roadway that can tend to narrow your roadways which then minimizes Sidelines and vehicles can appear visually f when they come through curves but more than what they are so um I mean from an enforcement perspective you know that that input or that feedback from basically what do you want that to look like and you know what we can do from the Sheriff's Office we'll work on that and identify that collaboratively um but typically um you know when you're talking a couple of Miles hour over window we just haven't been heavy-handed in that aspect and it's been very educational um you know 10 15 obviously school zones and different things um different situations um and I don't know all of the you know the community makeups or or I should say the the neighborhood makeups I mean a lot of times in these areas when it comes to that it is the it is the citizenry that you're that you're citing as well and obviously you're trying to change driving behaviors but the same people that are complaining it's the neighbors who largely with what we see um often times and and then that becomes more complaints whether that's received by the city and how um policing services are delivered as well um a lot of things I mean in in this instance can come down to more engineering and and what you have and then what you're doing and whether it's posting Signs and More signage um if you feel like flashing speed signs are you know you got to post it but then it flashes to alert you to what your speed is displaying I mean we've all probably driven by them and we break check when we've seen hey I'm I'm 28 it's a 25 right we've all done that so whether there is data to show that maybe those are more success successful in helping maintain um your travel speeds through your neighborhood or whatnot um I have a really Qui question about the work is that something that we look at every year that we revamp every year when we give it to the Sheriff's Department or how often is this uh it's reviewed once a year for sure I would say maybe like every two years Council looks at it okay and then on your side with your officers how often do they see the work plan to know make sure that they're following what our expectations are yeah well well they have it it's worked uh generally with our Our Town cops or our Bisons as part of their duties and that role and that relationship whether they having those conversations with Brent or it's coming to a work session this way to help identify uh you know PRI where priorities might be where council members where you might be Tak complaints and speeds and we've we've had crash data that that would show that we're seeing crashes in this area or the number of um you know could be complaint driven based on on what that is when you get into some of these if you you haven't seen it but typically it's it's it's an annual thing that's that's reviewed and um collaboratively and then if the council if it's every couple of years if priorities change or As Cities continue to grow and you need to shift direction or you know councils can change and properties can change too like the council sees it every year that we just don't bring it into like the whole session I don't think we've changed it significantly in maybe the last three or four years when and then maybe about 10 years ago there was like a big change on um related to uh public intoxication and um kind of other downtown kind of uh pieces so so would you say that your officer then looks at this once a year well our yeah they look at kind of How It's established for the following year so for example in 2023 it would have been looked at at the year end work together and then when we have our shift change over then it should be distributed to that Patrol team that's allocated to that area so that they've got an understanding I can't say that all of our deputies would be intimately familiar with it but those that we have assigned specific to the Carter Victoria partnership you know should have the knowledge of you know what we're doing to focus on law enforcement operations and you know for example so if if they were field training someone and they wanted say well um we know that one area is you know JCP and 11 or on JCP and 11 right when we were dealing with you know having extra presence for for uh school buses during the during the morning times when you're trying to um facilitate traffic flow um you know spending that time in that area when we identify things like that that are identified so we're directing some of that work where it's not just uh what would be on obligated time and they doing okay I have a couple questions so I have some answers and I'll try to have you not have to repeat everything you told us but so my goal is 30 m an hour in the neighborhood uh if I lower the speed limit to 25 the behavior might be okay I can push it to 30 well that was my goal anyway I wanted to get you to 30 right or do we Step Up enforcement so you see someone doing 33 34 35 uh if they're going 35 they know they're speeding I I think that's you're pushing outside your speedometer and uh gut feeling of speed so is it enforcement and uh so and then the signs that alert you to your speed uh I agree with you we we've added a couple of more of them just for that logic that it uh you probably don't want to speed and oh jeez I am a better slow down so I think those are effective of those three strategies what do you think is most effective at keeping people at 30 m hour in a neighborhood I think it's I mean the enforcement piece of things so obviously presence can be huge right but you can't be everywhere at once and especially when you even come to do if you were going to do an enforcement detail it's going to be as as you as your calls for service allow you get an emergency in another part of the city or what have you it comes down to what your what your resources are and how you allocate that um or how they're being allocated whether it's calls for service and they have that time or spent away um I don't know that I can say you know what what what can be seen as most successful I think you know in the packet that I saw I had a lot of information in there Victoria had a lot now some of it can be anecdotal as far as not seeing a change with the number of complaints um do you think enforcement is an effective strategy um I think it can be but it's it's again for how long and and you know um the ultimate goal of enforcement is changing driving behavior same reason you discipline your kids is do is you don't want them to do that again well I want to get people to remember their ABCs anywhere with Carver well and you know as you continue to be a growing Community but but but yes but unfortunately anywhere blood Carver right it's to be your citiz it's going to be your citizen Regal the these are these are your neighbors um and and in that respect and and um you know we like to be you know what fair and consistent and and how we download enforcement because it's you not always be successful what education has been done leading up to that you know how do we have social media blast we're changeing changeing speed in the area um you know whether that's through tweets or your your your Facebook or I don't even know I'm the last guy to talk about social media but um you know um and how that comes out of what you've done from an educational standpoint um how it's posted and you know I don't know if you all any of you have teens in here right driving behaviors that way with kids and different things can be challenging and and some of that comes down to modeling the appropriate behaviors for our kids to follow in different things and um you know where where parents come into play with young kids in neighborhoods and different things and it's not to say that's on a supervision piece of things as well but ensuring that they're being safe while somebody is even traveling lawfully at 30 m hour in the street right there was some data in the packet as well as you know injuries as it relates to speed and you bring up another good point uh the number of accidents we have so the other question is this real or perceived and your comment around perception because in the neighborhood with curved streets that that perception of speed really changes uh and I agree with that so you know from a city standpoint do we measure that do we I don't know if those rubber ROP you throw across the road give you account of traffic and speed or is it just traffic traffic it can be both like there are different devices that they use sometimes it's oh yeah it can be multiple things it depends on what they're using all right well and maybe that's a discussion do we before we go and make a change in the speed limit do we quantify if it really if it really is uh a problem of that magnitude is it is it enforcement is it do we measure do we do we I can say like so last summer we measured a certain stretch of Spring Creek where we happen to be putting up a digital speed sign um and the numbers reflected that there probably wasn't an issue I would also say like there are there were some outliers and it could have been mechanical but there are some reports that folks were speeding through there just to kind of bump up the average that's right first some firsthand assessments and so or at least that were conveyed to me from people that ad viwed it so um I don't know it's kind of a Sticky Wicket if you will okay Lor that's questions um yeah I do so if you were to ask me what I would want our leasing to look like I would say that it's not okay to go over 10 miles hour in Carter to get that you know a consistency and but we got to start somewhere um that's where I would be at um have you seen or heard much feedback and a change in Victoria [Music] with the reduced speed on residential uh I have not um other than what I reviewed in the packet um I um like after it was implemented yeah no we had one area but that I think that was we tried to Target some of that with just our Speed trailer to reduce it the county Speed trailer doesn't um have the same uh functionality when it comes to capturing and recording speed it's more of a display than it is on you know capturing that data to allow you to then generate reports to find out what you have but again you can get that we've seen it in other areas where you can get those things to to skew data um as you're saying you're you're ramping up your speed I mean we've had some previously and I can't remember which Community it was in right but it it was you were trying to measure speed but we had a couple of emergency code runs right so yous coming through and things like that and so then you get outliers in your data so and totally I spoke with the a while back and she said that it has not been the seller bullet it did not solve the problem I still get folks I think it solved a different problem people complain you didn't want change made maybe for change but they still change to change right still creating still create speeds right so you reduce it to 25 you still have people if your goal is 30 and you want people at 30 but you change it to 25 you're still having Speeders great okay uh no I guess my you know just seeing if you notice any difference with the victor and it sounds like there hasn't been a at least a noticeable change in even an accident rate did did that seem like that was affected at all or well you know our accident data for both communities is largely I mean a lot of our accident data is driven from Highway 7 or you know larger thars where you've got higher speeds in traffic if you're talking about residential areas or things where you're trying to have lower speeds it's yeah I don't I without having it in front of enough data to to say that you know we we have High crash volume that you know we're we're we're making a change for the right reasons change just for change I assumed if it was it would been in the backet right okay yeah uh I guess in general my opinion is it it's probably not worth right changing it right because like you said if we're GNA Victor's done experiment doesn't seem to have like made a difference that we noticeably can see um a the expense of putting up time they B having you know just thinking about driving on the streets not having a speed limit sign I think we almost get more complaints from people of why is there a speed limit sign in my front yard now that we you know posted do I had to add what like a 100 different signs or more signs in the so um yeah and unless I see a tangible you know accident reduction and the sheriff says oh yeah it worked great we've got C more people speeding and it's I and then even the survey result was kind of 50% too so I I don't feel like there's a strong strong push that would get a good benefit from the Daya I'm seeing um I to like first of all I have no issue with lowering the speed limit to 25 I grew up in Wisconsin I don't know ever Shar that with you guys or not um but I like that was the speed limit 25 so 30 does feel a little fast and I tend to drive slower in Carver because I would die if I got pulled over speeding ticket in the city um I also think um you know we just completed the community survey when asked folks what their number one concern with the biggest issue addressing the city of Carver was 4% sub speeding 4% um I am struggling because I am not seeing a huge like fire in the belly from anybody of like we've got to do this let's do this like nobody seems to be leaning into this so I wonder out loud if we couldn't do a summer of heavier enforcement and maybe not necessarily just these dozen or so streets do them on we cover buff Parkway here but you know like Sunny Ridge Drive KY Hill you know Third Street don't RIS spe know I just go 10 miles per hour these these are just the streets I stay at 9 these are the streets that I know you know I don't think anybody should be going more than like two three four over like going 40 on a street in front of my house is absolutely unacceptable I also don't and but there are those folks this won't solve that problem of that jerk who goes fast in front of all of our houses that never seems to get caught this also you know I think we've a lot of us have said this when we're standing on the sidewalk and somebody goes 30 m hour and we're sitting still it's the law of physics right that's going to look really really fast throw in a curve throw in a narrower narrow side on Street things like that it's just going to look different and I don't think that any of us maybe with the exception of one is eligible to be able to say that car is going about 12 that car is going seven o that guy's going 30 you know like we can't eyeol that we don't have that skill set so I think for lack of a clear like somebody really feeling this and really pushing hard for this or the majority I would really like to see heavier enforcement lower tolerance for any kind of speeding um you know I get it Commander Walling what you're saying of like be careful of what you wish for because we are going to to write tickets for everyone do it bonus points if you can write tickets for two of us around this table you know I get it and I get that we'll gets you know like from Neighbors from relatives from guests but you know I'm not sure what we're trying to solve for at this point we did the Spring Creek Drive Spring study with the armadillo Last Summer with the exception of a few Knuckleheads everybody was well under the speed limit we did the Green Ash Drive speed study um and the highest recorded speed there was 26 M hour so we're not seeing you know when we do test this we're not seeing a huge issue so um I would have a stronger preference of tickets and enforcement yeah okay sorry I thought you went no that was just an initial question sorry sry Sor no you're fine you're actually fine um so we were talking about perceptions of you know seen 30 mph you know that seems fast how fast is this there's another question for me that says take the perception now do we feel that 30 is just too fast on our residential streets and we we do have some data here where the risk pedestrians 20 M hour to 30 m hour and I obviously I live in the downtown so I see a lot of different activity down here with people you know the ice cream shop and kids and people walking around and it's 30 just too fast regardless of whether I'm standing there and it feels too fast to me um because we're looking at 133% to 40 with that in that 10 m hour range of um pedestrian safety if they are unfortunately having an issue with you hit by a car so um and then another one too we have some older neighborhoods in town that don't have sidewalks so if you were walking on the street with your family baby stroller and someone is going 30 which means we all know that really means 33 probably um is 25 and with more enforcement saying this is our standard 25 is fast enough that gets us in the middle of these 13 to 40% and then along with some stronger enforcement I know Brent you included uh in the packet of map of where some of those uh new signs would need to be and when I was looking at it I I thought there might be it might be a little more than we needed I mean if you're entering somewhere let's say when you're going up into the bluff and you take the left and there's the big circle back there if you have one is you're entering the Bluffs there doesn't need to be one in this corner and this corner and this corner and this corner you're passing it as you come into a I guess a closed area then at that point so yes there's an expense I see that um but I don't know that once we really looked at it if there's a if technically we need as many signs as we think we do being that we have zero Signs Now now again it's a change from uh the mile per hour Zone to another Zone but and this was just a I talked to Michael Jabs that he put this together like a half hour or so SCI no I don't think that it's this is like s stone but I when I was looking it I thought maybe we were a little bit over kill in a few areas well I'll just add to that too I know if you take the Victoria approach I mean they just did this with residential roadways and that it's only a certain kind of roadway it's either less than a half a mile long or it's not an arterial or collector roadway that has housing on both sides of it so a lot of the roads downtown here would not fall into that category so you'd be in a different um under a different statute but if you follow the Victoria approach you do have the the way the statute is written is that in order for the 25 to be effective on those roadways you have to put signs up designating the speed limit and indicating the beginning and end of each residential roadway on which the speed limit applies so I think the map I could be wrong but I assume the map that Jabs put together was based on that requirement CU there's kind of a lot of signs that are needed for for the approach that they took and I think Victoria purchased maybe $8 or $10,000 worth of signs as well it's a 10 yeah um just for for food for thought okay okay um and you know we talked about this before I guess my initial thoughts were that obviously collector streets would stay at the speed they're at because we are trying to move traffic on those and tend to have less driveways and and things like that and crossings there but um on those side streets especially without having sidewalks and people are walking in the street I know downtown here is somewhat of a collector street but there's a lot of pedestrian traffic down here and I was when I was reading edas and they were talking about their I can't see they had different uh programs they put in internally which must their counsel who did it who was talking about their Safe Streets and active routs to school and here it is The Pedestrian and bicycle plans I guess I think as a council too and they have this the drive 25 I'm sorry about your marketing but drive 25 is also there um Campaign which I think is a nice campaign slogan but I think also it's a philosophy question for us do we in our city think that 25 is a safer speed and a better speed to have posted that for me yes of course it's a safer speed but I don't think we have a safety issue I think it's just kind of more blending in with what other cities do what we've done before what the state kind of originally set out and just the cost of replacing all the signs I mean if there was a safety issue be a totally different question but um I just really think it's it's people just need to be good citizens it's not okay to go over 10 miles per hour I like that maybe take a phased approach to that that if we consider lowering the city's speed limit question about the mechanics of of citing people and capturing your speed is it an automated process in the vehicle does your officer have to do anything or did they just get uh a scan of every car that goes by them uh he wants to know so he doesn't get caught we have so in our Squad in each of our squads we have um a stalker um radar in tenis that's the brand there are front and rear antennas in there um so when you're you know you're traveling down this way you have to have that vehicle within that cone when it's projecting uh when you activate it um so challenges in some of these different areas would be Squad positioning where we would be sitting more than likely if we were in residential areas how we would have to Target our traffic enforcement efforts would probably be through a laser device where more than like it depending on how you are watching traffic flow whether it's a one Deputy or two deput detail where you've got a uh a spotter in a sense operating device to capture the speed and then you're radio ahead because the last thing we want to do is create further traffic Hazard on narrower streets higher volumes of traffic you know on street parking each way um you know with that and so we would have to um you know use appropriate tactics in order to to further Traffic Safety being safe ourselves um but those devices um you know the deputies keep um activity log so they you know they're checked for you know functionality and start and end of shift they should be maintaining a radar log that's usually used when that it comes into courtroom purposes if if if the court asks you know how you even maintaining a log there's certification that comes with with The Radars from the from the manufacturer that has been you know tested certified the Reas probably an attorney can speak to so the reason for asking is I wanted to know if it was odorous process where you'd have to step up equipment or step up Personnel or if the C can just do it uh and it you can let's say we set the threshold to maybe 5 miles an hour over um because I think at five you know you're you know you're exceeding that 35 30 mph limit if the car can do it and and we're just asking you to um by stepping up enforcement if it's hitting over 35 then you're stopping them you're not letting them go to work go to school you're going to actually pull them over is that is that going to capture more people than we're getting today well presence is a key and a deterrent in itself yeah um so if you're in a spot where you know um how are you if how you're visible to the public you may not get the Speeders that you're looking for all right and I would probably go through too before we just stepped up heavy anded enforcement I'm looking to set anybody up to fail probably start a couple of weeks education or things like that and putting some things out that we're going to be stepping up enforcement let's slow down and monitor that and give give the citizenry you know an opportunity to uh at least be aware that we're going to be doing those things and and then uh you know we come with it in in that sense um they can work with uh and have Deputy deerson work with Brent if there are some um locations outside of what's in the work plan to identify and then we can assess those on how we could position the squad whether that's using the incar equipment with our antennas and capturing um or if we have to allocate like a a laser device and and we've got to work with uh set up more of a detailer two Deputy details I'm just looking to get a better understanding of how many people we have exceeding you know hitting that 35 and over that we would be pulling over that would be sighting uh with stepped up enforcement um because if you know if if we're surprised you know if we do this oh golly we really do have a lot more folks than we thought we did based on what we have seen in our reports before yeah you know then maybe it's a I want to have a conversation about 25 miles hour I think we all agree that we'd be fine with that but before taking that step the summer of enforcement may be a a good strategy to get our our arms around the size and scope will be issue do you have any um Deputy stickers you can issue to people that are going 20 and say hey thanks for keeping it you know no their reward is they don't get Stu so Eric I that I don't have a magic number in my head that says if you're at four miles an hour or five or six whatever that is I do think some stuff up enforcement I do I like the fact that we do a lot of um that we do a lot of education but I think there's a point where education has to not see but it has to have the add of we're going to get some tickets here so that the word gets out car we still small enough I got to we're getting tickets now we're getting tickets now we'll probably get complaints for that but if you're breaking the law we can we can't have a lot of sympathy if you're breaking Education Works I mean you can you can educate educate educate I mean but the driving behavior isn't changed and you've been stopped three times then I guess you get to pay a little tuition the next time for your education so I mean something where in the next newsletter that goes out there can be a blur that says we are stepping up speeding enforcement basically you but more now it's coming and it you know and then that way once it hits you know July 1st or whatever it is then we then then there's an expectation already on the community that it's there and an understanding that it's going to be there and we have other things I don't know if there's anyone that monitors social media but throughout our waves um you know our social media campaign when it comes to our tzd initiative and when we're doing additional enforcement throughout the county is is something that could be cailed off of and shared to remind citizens that you know the county is doing this not just in Carver but the county as a whole um you know and how we look at how we look at those things um I don't think it's just on our thorough fairs either there's got to be some presence on the side streets too you know what I mean because if it's like oh you're going to get 11 he's sitting on 11 and he's sitting on you know 40 great but what about the long road in the Bluffs or whatever it might be you know so I think all over town and then I think that will give us more data that we're looking forward to I mean if we're really you know if we're really hammering out tickets then I think we know that there's a bigger issue here we we should look at what the speed limit is and I don't think I've ever seen an officer in the Bluffs they're specifically doing that so that presence uh I think will'll help can we take another look then at uh the streets that we have a staff and see if there's something that isn't added on there may did you see did you see a street on there that you wanted at it no but I don't get all the complaints that come in so I didn't know if there was more that maybe had come to the city say this street or that street we've been seeing it no okay I mean I think the just for like Clarity like for us and maybe working with the Sheriff's Office like you're talking about 25 on residential streets and you I think did a nice job chrisy like talking to both both sets of streets like collectors and residential but I think back to when we had the Sheriff's Office do reash Drive they were out there for maybe two to three hours at a time where we like increments an hour to two and there were like eight cars that went by so there is a I'm not trying to like Advocate to not do this but you are going to be the like whether it's Ridge Crest Drive or third street or Debbie Lane or Copper Hills Drive you're going to you'd have one vehicle out of the two sitting there for an hour I should clarify going by yeah I'm not saying necessarily sit in in these places I mean driving through maybe you sit for half an hour right so people going to work in the morning or whatever see oh he's sitting here for half an hour or she and um but I'm not advocating for that we spend hours of time sitting in specific spots maybe little blips here and there that they are seen by different traffic but then as patrolling in town when you pass that speeder we're less likely to give you a bigger grade so the Kung isn't looking for like a like a state called just normal driving and if you notice the activity then the pull over is that what we're hearing for me again with maybe some of those short time periods of sitting somewhere over a half an hour so a number of cars that go live that's just what I'm from from the duration standpoint that again is going to be as as calls for service or other duties allow uh with that so I mean you say we want directed Patrol in these areas that to check out directed Patrol where they're probably doing a focused um traffic detail or what not and if it's you know if it's 15 minutes or 30 minutes you know that that can depend some of it can be dependent upon traffic flow if they're you know if there's one vehicle in 15 minutes and they're traveling to the closest speed and then perhaps they move to another area that might be identified some of it's going to be dependent on you know the the deputies work in the communities know better as far as where the traffic volumes are during the times of day and if there's Peak traffic at peak times um how they're going to focus the the the directed efforts and from the enforcement aspect of things again you know we can direct that and and you know give or take discretion as we need to and if we focus it over the summer and then it it provides additional data to be at least reviewed for making a decision then you know you can that I mean I I'm sure there's probably an occasion on creating so if someone knows they'll probably they can message me ultimately like I would say 99% of the complaints that we've ever had in my time here have all been on collectors with the exception of a Green Ash Drive Last Summer car and Carver Bluffs Parkway uh but uh they're were really heavy on Spring Creek Drive County Road 40 or Main Street uh Fourth Street West going up the hill we used to have a lot of concerns about that Sixth Street multile par uh Ironwood Drive so um there are probably exceptions that people you know just because I think we've learned in the last year just because people don't complain does it mean there's issue but if we're talking about like where we're getting the calls it's not on the residential streets it's on these high impact streets um and so taking some time for the for that you as the council to figure out what your philosophy is and what direction you want to give to law enforcement but um you know it used to be by the Swanson it used to be where there's a property up on Ironwood and that you knew Chris uh oh yeah he's since moved but he was really concerned he had some young kids on Ironwood on the east side of Ironwood Drive of JCP yes six Street I think council member former council member Henry always used to remind us of speeding on Sixth Street West Council had one on mul Road La like last winter of the resident that lives just north of the water treatment plant so those are the like I wouldn't say the hot spots that are represented here right by the elementary just a little preview from my update so we're putting a speed sign digital speed sign uh going uh westbound on Spring Creek Drive where we put that new speed limit sign last summer and then a new digital speed sign going eastbound on Ironwood Drive before you get to Hartwell in the elementary school so those are some targeted areas that you got a lot of complaints about um but the Dynamics of that residential streets and lowering compared to you know where at least the calls for service I guess i' call them are distributed pretty starkly vers collector versus residential can I add one thing to to that I mean again Victoria just did residential streets what St Louis Park and what did I mean they Ed the new those cities used the new legislation from 2019 to lower speed limits on collector streets and so yes that statute says you don't have to conduct an engineering and traffic investigation but then two sentences later it says if you want to do this you have to develop procedures to set speed limits based on a safety engineering and traffic analysis well what is the difference between an investigation analysis and then there's a couple things that you have to base that analysis on so it's not like you can just kind of pick and choose as a council what streets should have lower speed limits than the statutory limits you still have to base that off of a pretty compreh ensive analysis that comes I think from your engineering folks and has to be based on sort of some safety and traffic um parameters that you've looked at so um you know again I think Victoria did kind of the easy thing to address what they perceived as an issue which was residential roadways um and they did expand the legislature in 2019 did expand that definition a bit but it still doesn't include collector streets or arterial streets it just includes some other resident types of residential roads um so I don't want to get too into the Weeds on that but I want to make sure everyone understands that there is a little bit of rhyme to the reason here when if you're going to actually be looking at more than just residential roadways you have to you have to base it on kind of a comprehensive analysis so I'm sorry I'm slow here I just so that I understand we can lower the speed limit on residential streets but not collector streets you still can do it on collector streets under the statutary limits but you have to have uh I it's called it statute uses the term safety engineering and traffic analysis to determine what those speeds should be I think they're trying to eliminate arbitrariness to it like we're going to put 25 over here but not over on a collector on the other end of town um because they want cities to be consistent uh and it's don't get me wrong this is confusing the way this is written it almost makes no sense saying you don't have to do a traffic investigation but you do have to do a traffic analysis well what's the difference in my mind there's no difference that's just two words for the same thing but um there's something there's a step we an affirmative step the city would have to rely on its Engineers on in my opinion um before we could reduce speeds in those collector streets okay and and then BR saying is those are the roads who've gotten the most complaints on so that's what I'm hearing okay I think what we're saying is enforcement yeah um and giving us some data so that we can wrap our brains around what and if the problem is here that we're trying to solve for I think there needs to be some we're talking about loow res like the residential streets right the side side streets so we do have to have some drive-throughs on that do some enforcement because otherwise if we're just running collectors we don't we're not actually talking about loaning collectors right so I think enforcement it's great but I think a little time needs to be spent on on ADD you know to be honest I think probably more the info have the things is going to come from your collectors or your larger roadways the visibility just through your residential streets it's probably going to be deter in itself and often times you know depending on roadway design and different things it's going to be you know difficult to how you position yourself for the enforcement piece of things but how we set in different areas um I know the traffic is coming out of the residential to The Collector and so you're still addressing we're using to collect if we want to collect information about whether we want under side streets to 25 we have to have something that happens we have to have something that happens on that side streets otherwise I the enforcement's great either way but I'm if we're looking at if we're doing this it's partially the reason to to possible speed limits we have to have something and if you're not sitting there and you you know you spent six hours in a month and you didn't catch one person that's good information to have that you weren't on a side street and you caught it there was no way doing it so we have that to some extent from Green Ash Drive 2022 um but yeah get it updated to show the people still learn okay so it would be fair if we kind of lift this play off through the summer and then report back in September is that yeah but I think a notice in your newsletter is a good idea do that the graphic has to be updated but you have the badge if you can let you know I'm not when that newsletter goes out or what not but an opportunity to educate on the front end and then we can have some more discussion um I saw with Deputy deers and the other deputies you know kind of our uh you know a go date on know we're starting our enforcement aspect of things and how we run that through a start and end date we'll send you a little package with our uh newsletter article and okay and when to kind of ramp up cuz at this point the next newsletter would be out like the first week in July so okay no sooner than that okay than one a couple days right cuz it's July 1 or we don't well okay I mean that's not to take away I mean the enforcement stuff could still happen but you're Mak the concered effort and you know yeah I would say like let's not let this stop us from writing yeah everybody gets the pass inun we don't want but it comes down to us from you know when it's man and staff to see you know we are uh minimizing your discretion for this time period expectation is enforcement okay so yes but I you know would probably say that in in that how we set that discretion that 10 mes hour or over is probably going to be that threshold when we look at citations I would prefer if it was a little lower but I'm not going to tell you how to do 40 like I agree 35 seems like and I don't know what your personal professional range is if somebody's going 40 like they should spend the night in jail like take oh my God my uh my professional in in in in my uh my experience was was I had that kind of professional threshold or what it would would Grant between education and enforcement where that threshold was met now well is it part two like when you see where they're going over you haven't made the decision yet it's like do they have a sure history of it it could be and you you you could look at you know and you check our RMS system and you can see oh they were stopped you know three times already by Deputy deerson for you know this same speed in the area and now you've seen that those education efforts have achieved the desired results so yeah there there's different things so that that's a fair point um and I like lucky number seven oh my gosh I I know I lucky number two um from that what what you said and yeah you know you're getting into you know five or less I would tell you that probably wouldn't issue issue citations for that as a former prosecutor when I was a baby prosecutor I had traffics I mean that's how you kind of cut your teeth and uh if you came in there with a citation and it was five or less the judge would laugh you out of the courtroom they would say what what are we doing here um because they have busy dockets and I just that's my anecdotal experience I don't know other judges are different but the ones that we that I dealt with were not thrilled about seeing those kinds of tickets in front of them so for what it's wor I can say that from the practitioner standpoint okay it's it's when it comes down to what they have and where the resources lie in their dockets and prosecutor time and like that the baby prosecuter spok information from you thank you all for your time enjoy your summer like okay city manager report up next yeah thanks M I want to move this up so we can get some people home tonight I texting Brent to hustle while that conversation was Happ so I just want couple of things the um we've had some conversations with the metropan mosquito Control District and pumped out some social media I think was on Thursday or Friday saw um but you know one of the questions that you might receive or folks in the community might ask is you know don't we pay taxes for the city to do that and actually you pay taxes but it's to the Metropolitan mosquito control district uh they had some great information about mosquito larve uh being in kind of like the wetlands River bottoms and all that those areas have gotten wet and mosquitoes ET um but they are communicating very well about it there's a place on their website to submit a tip for where mosquitoes are bad which is pretty much everywhere in so just wanted to give some line of sight to the Council on that uh at your next work session uh Aon Smith and uh Tammy andal from nor Securities are going to kind of be bringing back that self West infrastructure extension project conversation about trunk fees Etc um the employee classification and compensation update uh as you might have seen from some of the emails uh ABDO was mistaken they didn't get classification information out to Victoria so uh we made a connection uh Victoria's going to send us their stuff so we're going to update that and then probably be in the first meeting in July we'll take that study back to the council for review and adoption uh something that we've done with Victoria for many years now is um when there are Vacations or leaves uh sometimes Scott mccardy has come over here when we've had some uh parental leaves uh they have someone taking a leave right now so uh we have a kind of a building inspection services agreement where we basically help provide Inspection Services I think it's for a week two weeks um and they've done that same for us so we pay back and forth pay okay at an hourly rate okay and so I'm sorry is that just been like they're not here for that week we pay them for a week they just come on Case by case correct so we um we typically meet before a leave happens and Natalie works and then Gina in Victoria they try to group inspections together so Tuesday Morning Tuesday and Thursday morning right now Nick and Brian are spending their time in Victoria so they try to stack them the best they can so we're not going back and forth a bunch of times okay and then it's just for that they just pay use it hourly right correct okay all right uh and then uh the Met Council sent out their annual population estimate so I'll just reminder that's of April from April 1st of last year so we're always kind of a a year behind so just a shade under 7,000 updated household number uh the public service's Department finished essentially the BL Park parking lot expansion so if you have uh time to make your way over there uh they did a wonderful job a really big project so proud of their work uh again I shared with the council today that flood conditions are going to cause Riverside Park to close tomorrow morning so um we'll as soon as that opens up again we'll do another social media post so let folks know has it crested everything what are our numbers uh I don't have that information in front Weather Service says it's going to Crest this morning they said it was going to Crest just under what it would take to close the road to Jordan okay but that doesn't account for tomorrow's rain which could be another inch so if still going up okay so do we what is our clothes Mark here how many feet I I don't have that in front of get it to you okay why does seven Feel So Right what was that why does seven Feel So Right no and do we Cy do you know hand with Jordan's it's going to close tomorrow morning it is yeah do you know what there there which number well by 100 p.m. it's going to be 2 6.6 feet so that's going to crush on the road by 1 pm. tomorrow and that's without tomorrow's rain okay so I think this morning you were right they weren't anticipating it but with the rain and everything that came overnight they've reupdated it at 4m. but I can find we have a doent that we shared with the council I'll bring that up before we leave tonight and share that with the council awes um we already heard that we're doing the digital speed sign installation so I think uh Paul and his team are doing uh go for one locates but I think sometime uh early next to mid next week those signs should be up it'll take a little bit for like there's some functionality issues related to getting them online and calibrated uh but you'll be able to physically see them um I'm going to have Aon help me a little bit on this but I'll give a general were notified last week that uh there's going to be a Housing Development on the north side of Spring streek Drive which as you can see is in chasa city limits uh so we're going to be as a team meeting with Cha's review team the city of chaska's review team and talking about uh access uh to that road uh there's no kban gutter on the north side of the street uh talking about straing um Etc but I think uh Aon will really be involved from a kind of Lon perspective but it's a a unique project where there's a development that's occurring across the street but it's not in the community that you live in and so uh we'll be working to kind of help um any residents who are concerned with that kind of navigate chos process and get them uh included the same statutory requirements for noticing applies it doesn't matter if you're not in the city it's Property Owners Within 350t um but I think um for many years the city has had kind of like a handshake agreement with the maintenance um and care of Spring Creek Drive and I think we're going to need to formalize that from everything from snow plowing to Mill and overlays cuz it's one thing when it's you know developed on one side and not on the other but now it's a function as a major uh Street condition for for both communities and that little triangle so appears to be appears to be a farm it's we've taken a couple of runs at trying to convince give staff at CH give it to do you have any details on number of homes or anything we're meeting with um City St on Wednesday okay um for what we know right now it's a py development okay so I would say maybe similar to the south side of the street probably single family right that's the point yeah and then I uh I teed this up just as a like a little teaser email to the council but I asked n and Dave to just kind of walk through um a issue related to fence encroachments on Fourth Street West essentially from Jonathan Carver Parkway to about I think it's uh rescraft or so so if you want this uh sure thanks and thanks for bumping this ahead that was it's empty anyways okay so we are starting to gear up for the Fourth Street reconstruction project so I'll be the first to admit that we have had kind of all eyes on the stretch it's also a really heavily traveled Corridor through town um we have recognized that several fences along this stretch as you can see on the County GIS there fences extend beyond their property line by about 10 ft so it's been a known issue uh we identified it and had some lengthy staff conversations a couple of years ago and as fences have come into to be a new project or a replacement project we have been requiring Property Owners to pull it on their property line or within their property uh the mayor has been perie to a couple of hard conversations I've had with property owners along the stretch that say my neighbor's fence is there why can't I just connect to it and it's it's not on your property it needs to be fully on yours um at any point since these fences are located within R of way if any utility were to need to come in and perform work in the right of way so Metronet Cent link uh Comcast anyone in that group they could take these fences out and not have to replace them because the fences are not on the people's property or if the city was worried about sight lines I mean we could exercise our right of away um rights as well so there's been a little bit of back and forth with a property owner they applied for a permit uh installed their fence before getting their permit approved I had some back and forth with them uh disappointing outcome for both of us it's not a situation we ever want to be in or we're telling someone they need to change a project that they've completed so just wanted to give some context about what we're working on along this stretch and some feedback that you might hear from residents as they plan future projects or upgrade existing projects that they've done which unfortunately fall outs can I a clarify question before we this this will help me as we works with this yeah so when I'm looking has something changed here because if you look at the where the fences are they're all almost similar like length over the right of way right and so I'm assuming that they were permitted if you went in their address files these offenses were permanent at some point did we require a permit like so I went through I rudely went through all of the permit files while I was in a meeting with Brent and Dave and none of them had per okay they install with the hes I don't understand how they went I don't know we don't have dates on them we don't have permit so I can't say what year are these houses well the one your email said 2000 ear 2000 the email was 2004 that plat that oh of those lots was 2002 I believe when it was recorded So 20 a little over 20 years ago okay just the entire length of the curve it's almost a very similar amount that's hanging over so that's why I'm wondering how that happen that all of them are the same though we have first guy did it wrong one copi that but even the ones that don't have off that it skips and then you look and it's can I ask it this way would they be able to say it is lank's fault and like what would they say did they say like that's well they weren't permitted your property yeah but did they know that was naughty probably doesn't matter if we gave them permission that would be one thing but I don't we did and I mean the one the interesting thing too Aon cck if I'm wrong but I even if they come and replace it they're supposed to pull a permit for the replacement fence and that's when that would give then staff the opportunity to say look correct this was in the wrong spot for to begin with now that you're replacing it if you want a permit you have to put it in the correct location and that's what happened with this recent property owner that thumbed his nose at the city so outside of just this one did you look at all the address files for the ones that have fences and not one of them has a permit in their correct head off okay okay and there's been a couple projects that have happened recently where they've complied like the property owner at the corner of GRA is if you drive past you'll see they have um stakes in their yard for a new fence they requested to hook into their neighbor's fence here we deliberately said you cannot it has to be on your property line uh the conversation I was alluding to the property owner on the far reached out to the mayor we had pretty lengthy discussion their fence was also outside of their property they wanted to replace it I told them they would need to pull it back in So a tough spot to be in just that we've been working hard to enforce it on this stretch and then to have it happen where someone applied for a permit got some feedback and then moved forward regardless is challenging and the cities actually has a pretty reasonable rule I mean usually not usually a lot of cities have front and rear setbacks for fences they want it like a foot or two even into your property because putting something right along the property line isn't always perfect um but you know Carver allows you to do it right on your property line and that to me is a reasonable outcome for these people if they wanted to put it there we explored some different options at a staff level um what would it look like if we did an encroachment agreement is this something we should care about and can they be grandfathered in since it was existing so the we struggled a little bit with the encroachment agreement that if we allowed it to happen here someone could put a fire pit a garden a fence anywhere they wanted and then say well I want an encroachment agreement you did it here and there and there so why can't we do it on my property too and then just the tricky Logistics of this one with the Fourth Street reconstruction project if we need to access anything in that right of way the fences will be taken down if not on the property and not replaced by the city or at any point moving forward if there's any kind of excel emergency that needs to get there Aon if you go back a couple years on the aerial uh imagery can you go back like to the lat the earliest one they have just so I can see what the RightWay looks like they should have what in 2016 still they just changed this I know they did I went to look up so give me a second to see if I can figure it out how you're doing that the entrance Road uh closure in rate is 24 ft that's when uh the majority of the park is underwater the B launch is uh underwater at 122 ft that answer sorry I was I got some not for okay thanks 24 and 22 Okay so is up there we have one here's one that's barely maybe no that one's off oh that one's off okay that's a shadow shadow that's 2005 yeah things are looking this that's maybe just weird grass I think it's still thinking there so 2008 between 2005 and 2008 a couple more pop up to re point it's someone puts the first one in and then you kind of want to just connect to it so permits they're probably just out right but we do have a gap between a few of them that don't that there's no fence that theyve no but they could have measured the distance from another fence to the street do we know when the city started requiring fence permits probably not yeah I don't just curious Aon I need you to go back through all the addresses the very 2002 the were not there say a couple went in between 20 2005 and 2008 the right away was it hasn't changed correct yeah I mean my speculation is that I don't from what I understand I wasn't here maybe if you can help but four Street didn't extend all the way through the Jonathan Carver Parkway back oh sure you know before this development occurred is that accurate it was wasn't a toall Line Road that ran through there like it was a farm and then my understanding is a gravel road but I don't remember that it was there was maybe like a little goat path that brought you through but if you look at the even I think it's gilfillan like the old gilfillan go through part of that Park so you know I'm sure Dave can attest it there are plenty of times um where people use the wrong bench Mark for like when they do like you know property pins and all of a sudden all of them are misplaced um so there's you know that could have happened at this point you know all the folks that uh would have been involved you know we just don't have meaningful contact with anymore to resolve it we know this is our condition now there's things that you can do what I would say like one you could say well we're going to enforce it and you know because if we do encroachment agreements with these folks then are we going to do encroachment agreements with the entire Community two you could um you know you could I don't know if utilities exist in there but you could say well we're going to make a part of this right away but that would be very costly and time consuming and there could be Utilities in there and and you have to deal with you know Morag that I mean ultimately our position right now has been without any additional Council direction is that you can't build on city property and so that's what this would be have we taken any steps to just notify these homeowners that hey so you know your fence is over the line when the day comes to fix this or replace it you'll need to we have it okay idea but they already um they are obligated to still pull a permit when they do that so that's the time I think that the city's been telling them but but we have a knowledge of this being a special area right where this has happened numerous homes maybe it is worth sending something if it's limited to just a small area where we know this has happened right is it it's probably elsewhere in the community that we don't know about that's so you haven't looked at all the images I mean that was the mayor and I discussed that a little bit like I think you could I I think it's a matter of your judgment on sometimes no good deed goes unpunished or there are you know a lot of folks you know um that have encroachments and so you know are we going to start looking for those because ultimately the trigger really should be um when they apply for a permit you know we could but if the council says they would you know send them a courtesy letter we can do that too um it's almost a matter of like where do you want to bring the pain point cuz I don't know necessarily that these letters would be received well of like hey your offence is on our property you know and like what I know that we can write a very nice letter but I don't you know it might not sit well with everybody so do we amp up the tension now or in 10 years when it's a different homeowner potentially until they you know mean they have it ahead of time and it doesn't come as the surprise when they do bring the permit and them guys already been out sure but are they going to replace their funds so the caveat here though is we're going to be doing work on that street so I mean unlike other areas where it would be a problem we will be doing construction there and they would be subject to having moved so you would think they might want to know that hey we're not saying you got to move your fence today but just know and we're going to be doing or or if you decide to replace these are the two triggers here you're going to have to yeah and that seems limited to just those HS right well and those ones fell on I mean we're aware of these right like I don't think it's staff time should be you know studying aerial views for 6 in all that you know this one has fallen in our lap and we are aware of it right but we're also I I think that's the other trigger is that the construction company may I don't know need to get something under that right of way utility or something right would you want them to do a limited encroachment agreement because then you're tell you're in our right away but we're okay with it until you do something um I don't think would say we're okay with it I would I would think it would be a totally informative letter that said uh we have work happening in this area we've noticed you have offence it may need to be removed um and um just so you know fences require permits and that kind of a thing I mean I don't think we would even flirt with saying that we're okay with it because then of course they're going to take that letter in 10 years when we actually have an issue and say well look what you sent me 10 years ago you said we could be here um but we could send something I don't know how many houses have NES over there 15 houses there I just see 15 people being upset but I don't think it's 15 offenses no right it's seven seven but it's seven people that are subject to that action we're not it's not the rest of the city it's just that street well and maybe I would if we're going to send letters I think 15 people need to get the letters and there's a version B that says I don't know how we say it nicely but your neighbors are over the property line don't consider that you know like to preemptively avoid this issue well just show a picture of that street here's the right of way and you'll know if your fence is over it you don't have to spell that out but it says pment you don't have fence you're thinking about doing it please know that this is where your proper line is not in the line and fences over that could be subject to be but they also have a an obligation to pull a permit if they're thinking about fence right so I don't know I'm kind of on the fence about [Music] that yeah I I don't know because I mean I I don't get the sense that this project isn't going to require any offenses to be taken down I don't want to speak on behalf of the contractors but I mean Aon maybe I'm wrong about that but that could be sort of air tactic and I don't necessarily want to I don't want to rally the troops at this point for these homeowners either I mean they're going to get and if that's a neighborhood that knows their neighbors they already know this based on this one individual experience so I would kind of lean towards the check process for this is a for the defense department and that we'll get these folks riled up probably needlessly regardless of if they're planning on doing defense or Not by sending a letter saying you're on our property just wanted to let you know so you're in the right way you're in the right way I don't know yeah there's I mean there's part of that but then I don't know you don't have to I agree I'm on the proverbial fence proverbial fence too I don't know that there's a way of you know communicating this appropriately or winning you know this issue what do you need from us from nothing it was kind of an FYI we're going to proceed until the council says to do something differently okay so like you know there's a property owner that wants to or already has a fence in the right away that they just constructed without a permit so we're going to take steps to enforce that okay we'll see how well that goes all right do we have anything left on the agenda you feel you can cover in five minutes give it a shot which one uh performance P plan okay let's talk about performance play plan Mr and if we need to round into the next meeting we do that so uh this this is uh a policy based on the concept uh powerpoin or presentation that I shared with the Cil at your May 6 work session um we're kind of calling up the Milestone program uh based on uh performance levels Advanced skills development and service duration uh we defined eight Milestones uh that are established it's basically the city's kind of old step program but rather than just kind of steps based on exclusively Merit or steps based on those three categories that I previously noted um so attached are those formal policy and procedures uh in light of our existing Collective bargain agreement with right now we have nine uh excuse me we have 11 Union employees nine nonunion this would be exclusively related to the the non-union folks uh based on our current level of communication with uh asme uh I have absolutely no indication that this will be a relevant topic going into the 2025 budget season for ask me so uh this would at this point be a um a non-union uh Employee Program um so I I won't go through all the specifics you have them in front of you I will note we uh based on Lin's calculations we anticipate about $105,000 of impact if you did the full implementation 70% % to the general fund uh 30 to Enterprise funds uh I would say that not just with 2025 but every year after no matter how uh big the program gets from either Union or non-union uh whether whether it be employee pay any project you look at that within the confines of the budget and make sure that it uh fits within your goals for the entire budget and tax impact Etc but um pending the council's approval of the program we would start with that in the budget and then go from there um so uh Again full policy procedures uh reviewed by the uh entire non-union group along with a review from uh Dave Anderson the City attorney so um happy to answer any questions that you might have or topics things you want to see change my intention would be that the council supportive of this I would prepare this for uh July I think this July 1st regular the agenda and just to be clear what we're looking at is the policy tonight the budget impact will follow during the budgeting correct you're approving the program you're not approving any funding for the program go and we're looking at it's the six page performance paid plan policy procedures correct I had one thing that I noticed and I couldn't was trying to like think of the scenarios of like when things might go like certain direction and I um totally support the city manager respons but I don't want to be in a position okay was something I want to say page let me just find it like where it's like it's been writing and sorry I'm like I'm so used to doing like control f um if you bring up bring it up I can probably find it for yeah um where if somebody disagrees then it's like well you know let's have a and then it's like okay put it in writing and then it's like let's meet M where write uh that is on uh number eight oversight page bottom of page oh three of the document five that okay um as a council member I wouldn't want to know after the fact so I don't know if it even makes sense where there's something for like I mean I feel like you already do a good job of people but us in the loop but well so this is something's going to escalate to a grievance like not this you know that's the council manager for government agree right and that's I I get that but I feel like questions could come to us as council members yeah it wouldn't be I would want I'm trying to prevent being blindsided or because it says the final level of appeals is the manager is that what the decision is final and subject is not subject to any agreement but I would like you to be able to get our feedback like can you give me an example of what kind of feedback you want like want to give um maybe feedback after the word but just the like the um transparency to be like okay this is what's happening true I mean I would do like if there's anything that I think is noteworthy or yeah I would share that like I would other pieces the reason why we didn't uh include AG grievance to the council just because of what the May mentioned but I want to avoid the after the fact and not um just being aware more of the transparency knowing that we're not part of the decision but yep if someone if someone is upset or it's just more the not like if you think you know it might turn into something contentious sure maybe that's it do I hear you making a request and that for policy amendment I would thinking that just adds wait to policy Amendment um you're not looking you're just asking that Brent keep us in a loop just no I would like that in there I don't think it needs to be in there because I think that that's okay I I just feel like that is like you want to report at the end of like who's or only if something goes over right well then maybe it just needs to report of everything then well that's my concern like should be put every policy Brent needs to report to us Brent needs to report to us which just seems accessible well which he does all right yes but that's usually like a certain dollar amount or like this if it's something that could be contentious or an employee matter I just would want got we got an email last week on an employee matter I think Brent do a good job on keep right but then it's just different having it in a policy and down the road but if it's in a policy my fear is that it somehow impacts Brent's autonomy because that's he has that autonomy to make those decisions um I I've never felt like we haven't been updated in fact I would say Brent's probably the most proactive person in in updating us but I my fear would be if you inject that language you are risking his autonomy to do his job I could be wrong about that but that's my read of it it seems like it's too detailed something we shouldn't consider ourselves with right if if it's a employee rating decision how do we second guest friend or their manager writing and I I don't think that's anything we should do in the interest of time I appreciate you sharing that but I don't see support for it I don't either yeah anything else um I have one question quick and we're running out of time 9B um in cases where employee doesn't reach a designated Milestone pay for the following year will be consistent with the percentage of adjustment made to the overall employee pay scale just flush that out a little bit for me what does that mean so that's the the council will adjust the pay scale annually based on those factors it's basically the coal I guess so it'll be a mix of what we see in the local economy the uh Federal Reserve CPI calculator peer cities neighboring cities okay so if they don't reach their Milestone they they this is just just getting their Cola rais okay right okay that's all I have any other questions concerns no do we generally support this yes see this okay all right do you need anything else from us can I get a motion to adjourn make a motion toour second from Welsh all those in favor say I Mo passes all right