recording in progress. >> All right, you guys ready? Yes, sir. >> All right. >> Call to order the Wednesday, August 13, 2025 planning commission meeting. Ashley, will you take role? >> One second. Nate's going to figure out the sound here. Uh, Chair Brass. >> Oh, I'm start. Can you hear me now? There we go. Uh, Commissioner Sailor >> here. Rostad >> here. >> Assan >> here. >> Boswa >> here. >> Kerber, >> Campbell >> here. >> Perie >> here. >> Urbansky >> here. >> And Chair Barass >> here. With that, we'll move on to adopt the agenda. We'll make a motion to adopt. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Second. All those in favor? >> I I >> opposed. Motion carries. We'll move over to visitor presentation. This would be if anyone would like to speak to the commission, come up and talk about something that is not on the agenda tonight. Now would be the time. Is there anyone watching online? There there are people online. Uh but no one is unmuting to speak. >> Okay, we'll move on to approve the previous meeting minutes. Uh I'll make a motion to approve those. >> Second. >> Second. Awesome. All those in favor? >> I opposed. Motion carries. >> We do not have any consent items. So we'll move right into our first action item today. 7A the public hearing. recommend approval of the preliminary plat reszoning and comp plan amendment for Shioval 19th edition to curve. Uh Ashley, >> uh thank you chair. Uh tonight we have a we have three requests uh before you for Siobhal 19th edition. Uh the application is from Quadriga Ventures and it's for a property at 3910 Bavaria Road. Uh tonight we are in the second step of CHASCA's three-step review process. Uh just a refresher, back in February, uh this application went through concept plan review. Uh concept plan review for those of you um in the audience who may not be aware is a very high level uh review of a project. So the plans uh are very high level. they don't include a lot of detail and as such uh staff's review is also at a high level. So at that stage we're generally identifying issues uh that we're looking to get resolution as the project moves forward. Uh tonight we are in that second step. Uh generally we see preliminary and resonings at this step. Uh so the plans include more details and you'll start to see that our review is reflective of that. So there's more technical uh comments. Uh the conditions of approval become more refined and we're starting to see resolution uh to those issues that were additional or initially identified. And then the third step uh is the final review. Uh generally that's final plat review. Uh and at that time uh we're looking for final issue uh resolution and we're looking at those final plans. So each of those three steps um comes before you as the planning commission for a recommendation to city council uh who then ultimately uh approves or denies each of those steps. After that uh the project does move into uh the permitting stage. Uh just a refresher uh of the subject property. Uh it's roughly 30 acres in size. Uh in the northeast oops northeast corner of the site uh there is an existing home. There's several larger uh accessory structures and then there are several smaller agricultural uh type structures. Uh the remainder of the property is generally used today uh as a horse pasture. So you do see some white fencing uh delineating uh those different pasture lands. Uh the property itself is mostly flat. Uh the highest point is in the northwestern corner of that site and then it's generally sloping downwards uh from there in two different directions uh shown in with the blue arrows on the screen before you. We're going to focus uh generally this evening uh on in about for about six acres in the southwest corner of that subject property. So while the application before you does include that entire property uh much of the presentation will be zoomed in uh again in that southwest corner. Uh so in February of this year uh you as a planning commission and then the city council reviewed a concept plan for the property. It included 10 new single family homes. So in addition to that existing home in the northeast corner, uh it would all of those new lots would be accessed uh via a newly constructed culde-sac extending from Toaro curve to the west. Uh the lots at that time were shown to be a minimum of roughly 60 feet wide uh ranging in size from 7500 square ft up to 9,000 square feet. utilities were shown to be extended from Toaro Curve. Uh and then as conditions of approval, those existing stubs that are located further to the south uh would be removed. At that time, storm water uh was contemplated to be collected and directed to a newly constructed pond or basin on the east side of that new culde-sac, excuse me. And then a vegetated burm uh would be constructed east of that pond and that new culde-sac uh to provide screening for the new development from Bavaria Road. So as part of that concept plan review process, uh there was a neighborhood meeting that was held in November of 2024. Uh just a refresher uh from that meeting, uh there were about 20 residents that attended. uh they inquired about uh just overall density of the project uh future development opportunities of the project outside of uh the currently proposed one. They asked questions about uh the new home design in terms of size and whether or not they would include basements. They also had questions about uh screening, what would be provided versus what was required. Uh and then they also had questions just about construction uh as it related to timeline and traffic. So again in February uh you as the planning commission there were four four residents that spoke at that meeting. Uh they generally summarized the HOA's acquisition of the outlots uh which I will uh provide a little bit of a refresher on uh later in my presentation. Uh they also summarized some of their past correspondence uh with the developer. Some of those residents encouraged the new development to be part of uh the larger shioal HOA. Uh they requested landscaping in the island, some additional screening. Uh and then they inquired if there was an opportunity to connect to the existing irrigation and retention pond uh to the south uh which is part of the Shioval development. They also inquired just overall about the design and the number of street lights. So getting into some of those details uh of the project. And then they also confirmed uh that the larger 3910 property uh would be uh undevelopable moving forward if a project uh were approved. So, you as the planning commissioner or planning commission did unanimously vote to recommend approval and then it went to the city council meeting later in February uh where one resident spoke uh raising additional concerns about snow storage uh and then reiterating that the HOA's participation would still be required uh if the project were moving forward. >> Hey Ashley, I think this is helpful going forward. this little display. >> Oh, this is >> planning commission city council summary the vote. Just heads up like that's nice. >> You like that? Okay, great. Yeah, >> we'll we'll make a note and we'll we'll try to include that. >> Yeah. >> Uh the council then uh they discussed just their HOA involvement uh kind of piggybacking off of that conversation from the resident. Uh and then they encouraged the developer to continue conversations uh with uh the Toaro Villa's HOA to the west. And then they also unanimously then voted to approve uh the concept plan. So the current plan uh before you this evening uh you'll see a lot of similarities between the concept plan and the current plan. Uh there are still 10 single family or new single family lots accessed uh via a new culde-sac coming from Toaro curve. Uh the lot configurations uh as a condition of approval if you'll remember from concept plan. Uh they were to increase the lot size uh to be consistent with the curve development. Uh and their current plan uh does do that. uh when the lots were configured uh the minimum lot size or the minimum lot width rather uh did drop down to 42 feet and we do I do have a slide where we talk about that a little bit later. Uh their plan does include for six additional landscaping trees along the western side to provide some additional screening and buffering in addition to that existing vegetation uh to that neighborhood to the west. Uh and then they're also proposing some additional trees around that new culde-sac uh to court. The initial concept plan uh did show uh a vegetated burm on the eastern side of the development site. Uh there have been there was some additional landscaping uh that wraps around that development site now to also provide some screening uh to the north. the storm water management uh basin uh was essentially relocated from directly east of that culde-sac more to be on the southern side of those new homes. Uh and there is a swale uh proposed to help direct that storm water down into that basin. There is a sidewalk connection as well uh that wraps around the northern side of the culdesac and essentially terminates then uh at the terminus of that new roads. We lost I'm going to talk really loud. It seems like it might still be somewhat picking up. >> Sounds good. >> Otherwise, I'll just talk very loud. Those in my family would say I have a knack for doing that. Uh the submitted elevations suggest single level living uh with threecar garages. Uh the submitted floor plans suggest that the footprints of the homes would be about 2,00 to 2500 square feet primarily consisting of twocar garages. Uh now at any point uh when we are requesting a developer to submit those elevations and floor plans, we're really asking them to provide that so we can get an idea what the character the flavor if you will for what those homes would be. Uh knowing that uh we do have ordinances uh that get to kind of overall design, ensuring that there's diversity in what those houses look like when they're constructed. Uh so this is more just illustrative in nature to give you an idea of what those homes would look like and then those final designs would be looked at uh at the time of a building permit. So the first oh excuse me and then uh the grading plan uh suggests that the homes on the north side of the culdesac would be full basements and then the homes on the southern side of that new culde-sac uh would have walk out basement. So, the first of the three requests this evening um is a request to reszone the property from RR2 rural residential uh to planned residential district number 89. Uh staff is generally supportive of that request uh because it's would be consistent with the rest of the Shioal neighborhood. Um and the proposed setbacks are consistent uh with a Toaro Villa's development as you can see here on the screen. So moving into the second request for preliminary plat um we're looking at just overall lot configuration. Uh so if you remember from the lengthy uh background section that I gave during the consult plan uh there was a snippet of it also included in your staff report for this evening. Uh but the shioal master development plan uh included the subject property and it anticipated and contemplated uh five attached uh town homes yielding 10 total units. Uh and the idea was that those uh town homes would mirror development that was occurring on the west side in two in the mid 2000s when Shioal fifth edition uh which we've been commonly referring to as the tero curve development. When that developed uh it essentially split those attached town homes on the west side into uh detached units. And so the request this evening uh and you can see that here in this existing conditions uh rather than the attached units contemplated in that comp plan amendment and the development plan uh you see the splitting of those units and then the continuation of shared driveways. Uh the minimum lot size uh as you can see for Shioal fifth edition uh had that minimum lot size which we requested that increase to match. Uh and then their minimum lot width is 57 ft. So the plan before you this evening uh again increased they're matching their minimum lot size. Uh however with the configuration of the lots uh that lot width of some of the lots as they come around the culdesac uh did drop down uh to the most the smallest one is at a width of 42 feet. And so included in it as a condition of approval, uh you will see that uh staff has uh required that those three lots be increased uh to the 57 ft to be consistent uh with the Shioval fifth edition. Now there staff is acknowledging that that is still a smaller lot width than some of the recent developments uh particularly Fultonwood and Carlson Bluffs. Uh but staff again is is comfortable with that with knowing that it would be consistent uh with the development on the west side of To Curve. Uh so the stepping outside of those 10 new lots uh there is a three and a half acre outlot uh proposed as part of the development uh that would encumber uh or be covering and protecting rather uh that storm water basin and that burm as well as some of the screening and landscaping uh that is being proposed. Uh the remainder then of the 3910 property uh leaves about 23 and a half acres. Um that existing kind of development that's happening in that norththeast corner uh would remain essentially as it is. There's nothing uh proposed to change about that. Uh and then the application does show that that remainder of the property uh would be placed into a conservation easement. Uh this plan also is showing the construction access uh coming off of Bavaria Road on the property. Uh the applicant has indicated that that access uh would primarily be used for the initial grading. Uh the utility installation uh and the culdeac construction. Uh the applicant anticipates that that'll likely remain for about the initial 90 days of construction uh and then would be removed and restored back uh likely around uh the first lift of asphalt. Uh another uh there was a lot of conversation at the concept plan uh about the access to the site and where would be the appropriate place for that culde-sac to come through. Um initially when the applica the concept plan was submitted uh the the right-of-way connection was happening much or a slightly more south uh within what we've called the 36 ft touch point. So when Toaro curve shioal fifth edition developed uh there was a 36 foot touch point of rideway where that comes to the eastern property line. Uh that in conjunction conjunction with two outlots uh was retained and preserved in the anticipation of the subject property developing and those were intended uh to allow access uh for the subject property. Uh but from the time that Siobhal fifth edition developed and until now uh the Toaro Villa's HOA did retain ownership of uh those two outlots. So that just left that 36 foot wide uh spot uh which is roughly half of what we would need for uh right ofway uh based on our subdivision ordinance. And so uh there the HOA and the developer had a lot of conversation uh leading up to the concept plan and then that continued through the concept plan review process. in the plan uh that you saw again shifted that roadway north. And that was really to uh direct, you know, headlights and spillover from shining into living quarters of those adjacent units uh and directing that those headlights essentially to between the units uh or to what is uh currently uh garage space on the properties directly to the west. uh the Toaro uh that kind of shifting north, if you will, uh does require the HOA to uh dedicate right ofway to the city. And so they were required to sign uh as a property owner for the applicants or the applications before you this evening. They have done that uh and they have indicated that they will uh support what's needed in order for that acquisition uh to take place. As I alluded uh to earlier, uh there are sidewalks shown on the plan. Uh when Shioal fifth edition was approved in the mid-200s, there was a requirement uh that there would be sidewalks on both sides uh of all public streets within the development. Uh that current sidewalk uh is only today on the western side of Toaro Curve. It terminates uh just before the culde-sac bulb. Uh that's likely because it was anticipated that that sidewalk would continue at such a time that the eastern development happened. Uh the concept plan that came before you did not include sidewalks that was included as a condition of approval. Uh the concept plan today does include it. Uh but included as a condition of approval for this evening uh would require some additional coordination just to figure out what's the appropriate termination. So today, uh, there's no sidewalk on that eastern side and so there would be essentially a culde-sac that does not have that doesn't connect into an existing network and then just terminates uh halfway through the development. And so to accommodate uh the new development uh so the new homes, the roadway, and the utility connection, there's roughly 6.2 2 acres of disturbance that would happen. Uh the extent of that grading is shown uh in gray uh in that upper image. Uh the new lots uh if you went out to the site uh the image that's shown uh on the lower part of the screen is attempting to show uh roughly where th the extent of those grading limits are as they move east. And so when you were out there, you would have seen three layers of kind of that white fencing. Uh and the development is coming roughly halfway between uh those furthest two white fences. Uh the site would be regraded. Uh the new lots would essentially slope downwards uh from that newly constructed culde-sac and then there would be swailes that are wrapping around the development again directing water uh to those that storm water basin. And then on the eastern side, uh there is a 12-oot burm. Uh the top of that burm sits about 2 to four feet above, uh the elevation of the new street. You do see that uh the grading limits extend kind of beyond what the the boundary for the site is. And that's really to tie into uh existing grades. Uh and you will see included as a condition of approval. And you'll see in a later slide uh that we would like to have some additional coordination on that to figure out if there's ways to either reduce that offset grading uh or to adjust what that lot line is in order to get all of that grading uh for the development on the development site. Additionally, as part of this uh process, uh there was a potential wetland identified uh kind of roughly halfway between the development site and Bavaria Road. Uh and so the applicant is working on uh getting what's necessary to determine if that wetland is truly a wetland uh or if it is just a low-lying area. Uh as part of the grading uh we do look at uh impacts to trees. Uh there are three trees that their plan is showing to be physically removed from the site. Uh we know that whenever you impact more than 30% of a critical root zone of a tree, uh it can cause significant decline in the overall health of that tree. And so there are nine additional trees, again these are offsite, uh that uh would experience impacts beyond that 30%. And so additional there's also a condition of approval uh requiring the developer to work with staff to determine if there's ways to further reduce that grading uh to reduce those impacts and uh potentially improve uh or save the health of those trees. So now moving into uh the third request uh as it relates to a comp plan amendment. Comp plans uh just a quick overview are adopted uh and they're intended to guide the city's growth in a number of different categories. Uh land use, transportation, parks and trails, and public facilities. So guiding that growth looking forward 20 years. Uh we're currently uh operating in our 2040 and gearing up uh to adopt our next update uh very soon. Uh so the uh back in the 1990s uh the groundwork through some reasonzoning and some projects really laid the groundwork for this idea of a green belt uh to preserve Chaza's identity around the perimeter of the city. uh that was formally introduced in the 2000 comp plan. Uh and again, this this exhibit is coming from the 2040 plan. Um but the the 2000 plan did show uh a pretty substantial amount of that green belt on the northern part of the city. And again, you can see uh this project site within that at the concept plan review. Um staff had identified that we weren't entirely sure if a comp plan amendment would be necessary. Uh and we committed to doing some additional leg work to figure out uh where we stood uh with the Met Council in terms of that. And the reason that uh it was we weren't uh sure if that would be required was because the 2020 comp plan uh which was adopted again in in 2000 uh restricted development uh at one dwelling unit per 10 acres. In 2006 uh there was an amendment uh to essentially allow 300 acres that would become Shioal uh to develop as a cluster development. And so that amendment introduced a third policy into uh green belt development and effectively uh it did include the project site as part of that amendment. And that uh also included a an um a boundary adjustment to allow uh city services to that area including the project site uh through a use of boundary adjustment. And as part of that uh cluster development uh part of it part of the rationale or the theory behind that is that you're essentially developing one-third of your site and then leaving twothirds of your site undeveloped in that conservation uh idea ideology. Uh and so this site again was contemplated in that overall shioal 1/3 2/3 uh ratio and that was really to uh maintain that approved the council met council approved at 2.04 overall units uh per acre density. We have again or since the concept plan we have confirmed with the Met council that the comp plan amendment is required and that's because while the amendment occurred in 2006 uh the subsequent concept plans uh for 2030 and 2040 while that shioal was guided uh for conservation residential uh the subject site remained as rural residential and even though the exhibits showed that the subject site uh was in within that Musa boundary. Those subsequent plans uh excluded it. And so the Met Council has determined that those adopted plans uh because they came subsequent uh are the official guiding documents and amendment therefore would be necessary. And so then uh staff started evaluating whether or not the development would meet uh those three policies. So the first policy is rural development. We're not going to spend a lot of time here uh because they're not pursuing development under this policy. Uh they're pursuing it under that cluster development. So that third policy. Uh the second policy uh really gets to uh maintaining very low development at the key community entrances. And so a key community entrance under the comprehensive plan is really those in those those uh entrances along the city boundary that are happening on major roadways. Uh there's two in northern Chaza. Uh one being at the intersection of Bavaria and 86 just to the northeast of this site. Uh so effectively uh the site uh would be restricted to one unit uh one dwelling unit per 80 acres unless a developer uh can show that their proposal uh would maintain a visually remote feel and look uh that essentially would meet the intent uh of that very low development and Shioal's uh understanding that visually remote is somewhat subjective. Ive uh staff relied heavily on uh Siobhal's landscaping plan uh which also serves as the screening plan and their master development plan because that again that green belt uh screening and the ideology of that at a high level uh was contemplated uh when Shioal was developing back in 2006. Uh so the um Shioal's landscaping plan really includes a series of vegetated BMS uh intended to obscure lot lines or excuse me sight lines. Uh and you'll see as you move from Victoria to the west uh towards the subject property on the east on the right hand screen uh the screening becomes uh more and more and so you see less and less of those homes as you're moving uh from the uh from the city boundary eastward. Uh the homes on the Victoria side uh you can see quite a few of their roof lines. Uh but then as you get to uh the Bavaria, excuse me, the traffic circle on 86th Street, you can see that the homes that are just on the other side of that burm uh are completely obscured. And again, the intent of that uh was to start to uh transition into that visually remote feel uh as part of the policy. And so staff reviewed uh the concept plan uh and the proposed landscaping plan uh to what was contemplated uh with Shioval. Uh Siobhal's landscaping plan for this site includes a very dense layering of deciduous ornamental and coniferous vegetation. Uh so it's including a number of trees, shrubs and native plantings. Uh the concept plan uh provided some tree vegetation. At that time, we weren't quite sure what those species of that vegetation was on the eastern side. And then uh today's plan or the current plan uh does show uh some trees uh wrapping around the east and north side of the development. Uh the variety of those trees uh staff is a little concerned uh about them. So we'll continue to work with the developer. The reason I say that we have some concerns is uh most of the varieties that are proposed uh are right in that 40 to 50 foot range. Uh and and we'll kind of get to uh what staff believes is the rationale for that in the next slide. Um but the two coniferous varieties uh that are proposed are also known to drop their needles in the winter. not to the extent of a deciduous tree uh but certainly there wouldn't be that kind of year round uh screening uh based on uh the varieties that were selected. Uh so on the left hand side of the screen um there were four viewshed um or there were four sections rather as part of the shioal uh master development plan intended to uh provide some guidance for what the screening is. Uh the fourth one the one on the bottom uh was the section uh as it relates cutting through from Bavaria road uh through to curve. Uh you can see that uh there's a a you can't see the car here because there is a substantial distance uh between that. Um but also you can see that the elevation of the top of the burm uh is getting to about halfway through that home. So development was set set lower uh that that burm and then additionally uh there was a substantial amount of landscaping uh put on top of it. The sections on the right uh were proposed or were part of the submission from the developer. Uh you can see that the top of that burm uh on the three sections are really getting to uh generally that ground floor elevation of those new homes. And so that burm isn't necessarily providing that same level of screening uh that was provided or thought to be provided uh under that concept plan. And so the screening really gets to relying on uh the vegetation and the height of it uh nearing full maturity. Uh these sections are shown uh landscaping uh in the 10 to 15 year mark uh which is full maturity for some of the varieties that were selected. So there will be a period of time uh that there would be very little screening u at the time of planting until that full maturity. And so again, um the concept before you this evening is really looking at a cluster development option. Uh the comp plan says that a comp plan amendment is required. We already know that. So looking at the different uh objectives that were required to be met uh in order to support that comp plan amendment. Uh generally staff is finding that this application would meet them. Uh so we're generally supportive of that request. Uh and again in the packet you'll see that we have uh included a condition uh to continue to work with the developer on that viewshed and getting that kind of more remote feel uh as was originally intended out here. Uh the second part of that uh comp plan amendment uh is just to adjust the Musa boundary uh to include the site. Again, staff uh would support that request as well. Uh so there's a number of conditions included in your report this evening. Um these are probably the bigger ones that we would like to see some resolution uh ahead of final plat. Again, that landscaping plan in the viewshed. Uh we want to continue having conversations and some coordination uh regarding the off-site grading impacts particularly as they relate to tree impacts and then uh that grading that is extending uh beyond the outlot to the north. Uh we want to continue to work on sidewalk connections and figuring out what's the the correct design and and where that termination happens. Uh also continuing to work on drainage and storm water uh as well as uh what those easements and uh would look like in draft form and then uh just seeing a final plat that addresses those uh minor lot reconfigurations and then that wetland determination. Uh so with that uh I'll turn it back to you uh for any questions uh and discussion and then have the three motions uh that we would be looking for uh this evening on the screen. >> Thank you Ashley. Um it is a public hearing so in a moment we'll open it up to the public but first we'll ask questions amongst ourselves or for city and staff. If there's any clarifications, questions for the staff, um, we'll do that at this point. And I'll just start with an easy one. The So, the sidewalk, how exactly I mean, is there any idea how exactly that's going to work? Is there going to be a crosswalk that connects over to the west side of Toaro? Is that what we're kind of thinking maybe? Sure. >> Uh, Chair Brass, uh, I don't have an exact solution for you at this point. You know, I think the reality is without a connection or some sort of, uh, connection into that existing network, it does feel a little awkward. And so, you know, if there's a way to integrate it, uh, how do we do that? Certainly, I don't know that we're in a position to require that that sidewalk come all the way around the uh existing culde-sac. So, trying to find a resolution maybe to meet in the middle uh to meet the intent of of what that original condition of approval is, but still coming up with a reasonable solution. >> Okay. Um, and then so the lot width that's only on the the few lots that are impacted by the by the radius of the curve basically or >> Yeah, there were uh there were three lots. Uh the staff report identifies the specific ones that they are. Um the the narrowest lot uh is lot five block two and then there are two additional lots. I believe it's this one. I believe it's these two northern ones. >> And essentially, I mean, I can ask the developer too if they're here, but it they have them this way initially because probably grading or some sort of topography like seems like this. They should be able to move them out a little. >> Yeah. Why the adjustment between we saw a concept to this, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. So it so in general it fits the neighborhood better. That was the whole idea. Correct. >> Yeah. So the condition of approval would just be to increase that lot width to be consistent with what Toaro curve is. Um the reconfiguration uh >> is pretty minimal. Uh the biggest reconfiguration would be on that southern lot. Uh the northern ones are are just a few feet in order to to get up to that 57 feet. >> Okay. And then the wet land still in determination. uh chair brass the last uh that I heard from the developer is they are still working through that but they are here this evening so they maybe can provide us an update but again uh we would look to that is a requirement for any development uh to provide any sort of wetland determination or exclusion uh ahead of final plat. >> Okay, great. Um, let anyone else have any questions? >> Refreshment on the conservation easement. I know it can't be developed in the future, but it can be you can have walking paths, that type of stuff through there. Uh, Commissioner Oransky. Uh, yeah, you know, that the any conservation easement usually includes language into what is allowed or uh not allowed uh to happen within uh that easement. And so that's where we would like to come with a draft ahead of final plat so we start to understand uh the nuances of that easement. But yeah, I I see the intent to maybe provide future abilities to uh include walkways. I I don't see a reason to prohibit that. >> To provide a little bit of clarification or add on to what Ashley uh provided, the intent is not to necessarily have this property become public property um under that conservation easement. The intention is that it would continue to operate as private property in kind of that farm, you know, use that it is today. >> So, it can still be used as a pasture area. >> Correct. Yep. Yep. We're really trying to preserve that kind of rural edge at the that Ashley was talking about at that key community entrance um as part of that green belt policy. So, that's that's the objective. Um, you know, we could look at like Ashley's saying, um, the details as to how, you know, how exactly that's going to say, but I think conser the nature of the conservation easement would be to limit development opportunity on what remains on that property. >> Okay. >> Per the per the green belt policy. >> So essentially, it doesn't get any more dense than it is today. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Yep. So that uh temporary access that's just for until >> construction is done >> until until the initial construction of the outlaw is done in the in the culde-sac >> chair brass that is what the application uh the developer provided as part of their narrative. Uh we do have a condition of approval that would require some additional conversation ahead of a the submission of a con construction management plan uh ahead of any permit issuing uh so we could work through uh what the extent and the length of that access is. I I think the realities of developing this site is the conservation, excuse me, the construction access comes through where there's a substantial amount of grading that needs to happen at that onset. And so there's a little bit of a striking of a balance that needs to happen uh for how that works. >> Sure. >> Okay. Chair brass, just to add on to Ashley again, I think, you know, our our uh intention here would be to work with the developer um to try extend the use of that construction access to the extent possible. I think we want to avoid um you know, construction traffic utilizing the neighborhood street. >> Sure. >> Um to the extent that we can possibly do that. So I think that that's going to be the nature of the discussion is how do we stage and phase the development um to really maximize the use of that construction access for you know the heavy vehicles that are being required not only for grading but also for you know the building of of the homes and we've done that with other developments. >> Yep. >> Okay. Um, how's Met Council? Obviously, you've spoke to them says, you know, they must approve requested comp plan amendment. I would imagine at this point, how's that looking with them? >> Uh, chair brass, uh, obviously there's a review that happens. Um, so after uh the council would uh recommend or excuse me, if the council supports the request and we get through and we get to a a landscape plan, that screening plan that we find amunable, we we're both in agreement to uh then there is a period where the plans and the requests go out to our adjacent communities uh and the school district. And so they have a period of time in which they can provide comments. Uh their comments and the requests then are packaged and sent to the Met Council and then they have an additional time period uh that they can review as well. Uh at this point in time uh our Met Council representative uh while he can never guarantee he he didn't see major issues uh with with the request. >> Okay. I have a small question. How likely might it be that the tree health impact assessment would impact the design of this development >> and uh the I'm trying to find let me >> I really love that that's something to dive into, but is that something that would really affect the outcome one way or another? Commissioner Ross said oftentimes you can do some uh kind of preservation if you will uh to prevent contractors from extending into that area. So there are some practices that you can do uh to uh prevent further impacts. Uh there's also uh opportunities and perhaps the engineer can speak to it a little bit when uh if they choose to come up, but oftentimes you can adjust some grading uh to reduce the amount of impact uh within that that 30%. >> Thanks for the awareness. >> Is there any further questions before I open up public hearing >> for now? Okay. So then at 7:47 I'll open up the public hearing and if anyone would like to come forward if there's any questions or people like to address the commission now would be the time to do so. You can come on up state your name and address into the microphone for the record. It would be great. Um, and then I see we have a little bit of a crowd. Just kind of go over some basics. If um, try to keep it brief, to the point, a few minutes, and if someone's already said what you were going to say, let them just have that then and not just reiterate. Sometimes we get big crowds and it can go on for a long time. So, if someone's already said the point, just kind of leave it at that then if possible. Um, Commissioner, uh, I appreciate being able to speak at this public hearing tonight. And I am Susan Stinchfield. I go by Susie. I'm the president of the ToOro Homeowners Association. And I'm also a homeowner at 3740 Toarero Curve. Um, my home is one of the homes where the new street will be uh coming through to part of my garage. So, I live just to the south of the road. Um, my two primary uh concerns after reviewing the um documents from the city and I've had lots of conversations with Ashley um are what was just talked about by Nate and Ashley in terms of the um construction road. and we have a letter of intent since we met with the commission and the uh the council. We've done some collaborative things with the developer and developed an agreement and a letter of intent and there are certain conditions for the HOA to approve an easement which is over our property to access this development. And one of the conditions was the construction road. And we have some very specific things outlined in our letter of intent, an agreement with the developer about how that road will be used and for how long. And so there was some concern from our HOA and as it was described in the the the uh packet that there would be this 90-day time limit and the use of that road would be just for constructing um the development for grading and utilities and the road itself. We need that addressed at our level because the condition of an easement is based on that road being used for a longer period of time and being used through construction because there is not only impact on Toaro residents but the entire Shioal community. We have a bridge, as you probably all know, that has um weight restrictions. And we also have um a lot of people that live at the 86 entrance where a lot of construction traffic would have to come through the entire neighborhood possibly. So we were um conditioning our easement on that construction road being used for a longer period of time through the actual construction of the homes. We know that the TR the road from Toroo into Toro Court would have to be opened once those homes need to be accessed for um whether or not they're parade of homes or there are homes that are built on spec and they need to have people access and get to those homes. But this is one of the big concerns that our our HOA has about that construction road. So they sort of addressed it toward the end here saying that that's something if that's all the applicant requested was for that construction road to be used for 90 days that needs to be discussed further. Um and sounds like there's some discussion that could occur to change the the time limit as to how that construction could be used. Um the second thing is um the landscape plan. Um also part of the conditions of our uh agreement with the developer um for the easement has to do with the landscape plan that runs north and south that's adjacent to the current outlots that we own. So it's our viewershed to this development. And the conversation in our letter of intent is about BMS and planting. And I think at this point looking at your grading plan, there might be some limitations. There might be some discussion, some impact on your drainage, your utilities that where a burm may not be able to be built. We understood it as to be a burm across that just like you're concerned, which I appreciate the viewshed. and the green belt from the east and the north. We're concerned about the new shed from our homes. So, we need that to be further discussed, too, because that's also a condition and outlined very specifically in our letter of intent about what that buffer will look like. And it might end up being impacted by your your uh grading plan. And then you've had discussions about trees that may be impacted that are currently there and what kind of planting are you discussing in terms of a buffer along that north south um all lot. So those are two big concerns of the >> So what has the developer said to you in regards to the trees or the new shed from your homes to >> has there been I didn't hear you. >> What has the developer said to you then? What have they what was the discussions been? We specifically drew out a landscape plan that was a supplemental plan. I would identify it as to the city's planting landscape requirements. So we were we were going with the fact that there would be some sort of burm that would be built with planting. So if that changes and that has to be rejusted in terms of those kinds of plans based on the grading and the drainage and what can actually happen that needs to be discussed at between the developer and ourselves which I'm sure and and we've brought that to the attention to the developer and to the city. Um I provided a layer of intent um for the commission so that you could see >> some of the things that we identified as conditions to amusement. >> Yeah, we got this. Is it this? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And so I'd imagine I mean we got this tonight but you gave this to developer a long time ago I would assume or >> Yes. >> I have to imagine they're they're they're familiar with this. >> Oh yes. Oh yes. It took a long time to get that document >> finished and signed and >> so yes, there's been lots of conversations >> and and certainly enough conversation that got us to a position where we're actually collaborating and working with the developer now to make to get this to happen to actually >> Yeah. Okay. >> grant an easement which we have not yet done. So, >> those are the two major things I'll I'll bring up and um >> I know there's some other things some other homeowners have. So, if you have any questions for me, I'd be glad to take them. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Feel free. Come on up. >> Um Ted Klein. Um I'm on the call HOA board. Um I'm at 3728. And just to speak to one thing, um there was a discussion about the sidewalks and I'm not going to give you a recommendation. I just simply want to point out that as you're looking at the sidewalks with all of the density of the homes in this and the driveways um snow removal and where we put it is a is an issue. So, um, to on the east side of the road to keep some of that area because if there's a sidewalk, then we also have to plow that sidewalk. And that's about the all. I mean, there's very few places we can put snow. Now, sometimes we don't have a lot of snow, but if we get big snows, we we we really don't have much room for for snow. So just when you're looking at those those sidewalks, how you want to connect them. I know there's been a couple of different ways to to look at that. So it like how the burm is done where the I mean my my personal view on it would be along that east side. It'd be nice if there was no sidewalk on the east side of that road because that gives us a lot of place to put snow. Um but that's always been a problem for us. And um >> on the east side of Toaro >> on the east side of the road. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Now you just push snow off off You just push snow off there right now? >> Right. Right now it just Yeah. We It It just all It all goes up there. In fact, our snow plow service most of the time actually plows the road by the time uh city trucks come through. >> Sure. uh just so that we can maintain where that snow goes. >> So so it's not piled back up on the sidewalk on the west side because we we have to keep that clear too. >> You know, we certainly we want to do our part in keeping those clear. >> So I'm not making a recommendation. I just want to just point that out as as you take a look at that. That is >> we talked about that. >> Last time we talked about snow. >> I know it comes up. >> Yeah. It's It's something that everybody's very very very well aware of. >> Painfully aware of. Yeah. >> Sometimes you forget it in August though. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When the snow comes that's why you go to some places, >> right? >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yep. >> Good evening. I'm Steve Tinker. I'm on uh 3764 to curve. Um, I have a couple of comments uh with the with the new culde-sac on uh I think it's called uh Toaro Court. Um I highly recommend that we u have an island and that that would mirror the island that we have on Toaro Curve. Um, it's uh it gives a nice uh feel to that uh culde-sac. Uh and and I'm I'm sure it'd be a nice uh addition for the homeowners that are >> Steve, were you here at the concept plan as well? >> Yeah, >> this sounds familiar. >> I brought it up. >> Yeah, >> I want to bring it up. >> Talk about snow again then because we were worried about it being >> right. And one thing I'll notice uh note also is that our island at um on Tiller Curve has uh irrigation and electricity. So uh when they're working on that, we'd uh recommend that also. Um so again, I'm just curious because we only touch touch this right now. Um have you spoken with the developer about that? >> We've mentioned it to them, but I noticed that um >> it's not on their plan. >> Got it. Yep. Okay. >> Uh, and I I brought this up at the last meeting. Street lights. The street lights that we have in uh to are unique. Um, and uh we'd like to have them uh them try to match the same look uh with the street lights. They're not typical city street lights. Um sidewalks. I recommend highly that uh will you terminate the uh sidewalk from the new development, put a uh uh and have the a pedestrian walkway over to the uh west sidewalks. I think that you'd have to put a a sidewalk access with a uh zero curb for bicyclist, whatever, >> right? Yep. Some sort of crosswalk and then access. Yep. Um and then there is an issue of fencing around the uh development. Um the the current farm has fences. >> Yep. >> Uh obviously if they're going to run livestock, horses, whatever, they're going to need fences. Uh we'd uh highly recommend that same type of plastic uh horse fence, whatever you want to call that uh for the uh for around the development. So just keeping it consistent. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And with regard to the burm or the idea of a burm around the on the east side of the develop I'm sorry the west side of the development. >> Um since I don't think we can put a burm in there because of the grading issues. Uh there's just not enough room to build up a burm. Um we we would I would recommend that uh we have additional uh landscaping >> like coniferous like >> coniferous uh maybe shrubbery that would you know grow up uh 8 to 10 feet or whatever uh and trees. >> Mhm. >> Thank you for listening. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you. when he talked about sorry when he brought up the fence um we had a discussion today about the fact that what is very different about this neighborhood is that it's going to be adjacent to a a farm which we understand is going to maintain to be an equestrian type property. um the containment of the possibility that there will be animals in this farm pasture and you put in a fence that's just a three. Right now we have a fence that is I believe allowed to be electrified that buffers that property from Toaro. >> Yeah, I was going to ask you so I can't tell. I mean, do you have any issues now with with the >> No, because they don't have any. They've not let any >> They have in the past, though. They have had >> No, they haven't. You know, they've contained the horses to the um north. >> Has there been discussion with the property owner on what the plan is? >> No. So, it just came up in a discussion today that we had with the HOA and the fact that we're going to be having homeowners now in >> to that pasture that will be surrounding it. >> That a three rail fence is not going to contain or animals that might be out in that pasture. So, I guess that might have to be discussed. >> You know, I hate to make assumptions. I would imagine the land land owner would not want who's going to do something to make sure their animals don't go straight. Right. >> Right. So what comes into question then is if that fence which is part of the conditions of our letter of intent that we have with the developer >> y >> does that fence need to be maybe looked at as the farm owner's fence and their responsibility because they may have to be containing uh >> horses or whatever they decide to put in there. So so that maybe needs to just be discussed. >> Maybe they'll continue are now. >> Yeah, we don't. But if that comes up, the fencing issue and the containment of the neighborhood from the farm that's going to maintain itself as a rural farm. >> Have you spoken with the farmer? >> No. >> No. Okay. >> We can we just work through the >> I would imagine >> we through the developer. There is a current fence >> that can be electrified and contained, >> but we should not be able to make that a condition because that's private property. >> I have to imagine >> recommendation to them. >> Yes, that's probably something that the developer conversation, >> right? I mean, >> there's just it came to light today about >> maybe that's the one responsibility that in the middle of a >> Yep. That makes sense. Yep. >> Yeah. >> Ted. >> Yep. >> If I can speak just a moment. Actually, I was the one that brought this up in the meeting today. So, I'm really sorry about that. Um the in the plan that I saw up here, it had a fence. That's what brought it up was that there in that plan there is a fence. The question is who's responsible for building that fence? And if it's for any containment, the HOA absolutely does not want any responsibility for maintaining that fence because if it fails, a horse gets out, somebody, you know, gets it, you know. >> Okay. >> We don't want to be responsible for the maintenance of that fence. Yeah. >> If it's if if it's for aesthetics, great. But if it's for containment, I don't know. I don't know. Well, I think just I'm pretty sure this is going to be between the HOA and the farm owner or developer or get that figured out because at the city like I don't think we >> you don't require it. >> Yeah. Right. No, not that we require it. I just it's a question for the city, but >> um if you're saying we don't want to maintain this fence, so I think they got to work that out with >> Sure. the land owner, you know, >> and it's about it's really about maintaining a fence for containment. We we you know, we can maintain a fence for aesthetic, but >> or whether or not you don't want to maintain it at all, you know, if it's not your fence. I I don't know whose fence it's it is. >> I just saw it on the plan. I'm like, it wasn't clear to me who's who's >> We can find out. Y >> I think I'm last up. Uh >> All right. >> So, my name is Megan Rogers. I'm an attorney with Luren Hoffman and I work with the development team uh for this project. >> I'm sorry, was it Megan you said? >> Yes, Megan Rogers. Uh and I thought it was helpful to hear from our neighbors first uh because then I can talk a little bit sort of about our plan set and then also perhaps address some of the questions that we've heard tonight. Um, so just from a preliminary standpoint, I' like to thank your staff um, and the city for working with us on these plans. Uh, and uh, really sort of putting together for you tonight some context and alignment of what this what this site was previously uh, conceptualized as. >> Um, so we came before you for a concept plan approval for the 10 lot subdivision. Um, and that's what we've brought back here tonight. Um there are some changes that we have made um really in response to hearing from our neighbors um and working uh towards uh creating really a cohesive development for what will become another part another segment of curve. Um and so uh we have you know really no objections to the recommendations the staff has put in front of you um except for one area of conversation and then of course I want to address sort of some of the neighborhood concerns about Burmang and trees. >> Great. Um but trees is my big point of conversation this evening. Uh and staff mentioned two things that I think are really important. Um they mentioned that the policy three within the the comp plan talks about this uh concept of being visually remote. Um and and and I I appreciated that staff included in the report um that that's a subjective uh characterization. And so one of the things that we think is unique about this project generally bringing it forward um is that we are bringing forward a a planned residential development um that is consistent with the like sort of 2/3 one-thirds alignment of the existing Shioval properties. Um but then we are also creating the opportunity for preservation uh of the remainder of this farm parcel um and this equestrian parcel. And if you go back and in your packet um this evening, there is a copy of that master plan. And originally the the Chioal development contemplated uh horse pastures and uh and some horse trails through it and that didn't materialize when the project was eventually built out. Um but we think that we're capturing some of that um by retaining the Stoer parcel as this equestrian facility that's currently used as today and retain that agricultural character. Um and so you know one of the things that staff has talked about is you know how do how do we manage that viewshed requirement that's part of the comp plan uh change and a part of our application. Um and what we would suggest is that the the plan that we've submitted in front of you this evening that has our landscaping plan um complies with that visually remote context for a number of reasons. Um, number one, it's uh in the we have these BMS that are very similar to what you see in the remainder of chiffall about 5t tall um that create this separation between the backyards of the new homes um and then the extension out into the pasture. Um, but what our tree plan does is it is particularly designed to allow for continuence of that viewhed so that the homes that exist today that benefit from seeing the equestrian fields, the homes that will exist in the future also retain sort of that equestrian field view. Um, and one of the significant distinctions between the other Siobhal neighborhoods and sort of their tree plan and this tree plan, um, is that there's 768 feet between the corner of 86 in Bavaria and, um, and where our trees start. Um, and so we believe that visually remote language really is tied um, to number one, the new design that you have in front of you tonight. you know, the the old design sort of captured all of all of Shioval into that mirror image approach. Um, where this is extends it out and it becomes a part of this sort of pastured space. Um, and we believe that it's more consistent in fact with that rural reserve approach and that visually remote to not have the um extraordinary density of trees um but to have a sporadic trees where you can sort of view through the homes um to that those pastures. Um, so that is something that we would request uh direction from you all on tonight and to get some feedback as we continue to work towards staff um work with staff um on developing an overall landscape plan. Um then moving on to questions uh and uh from the the commission and that were raised by the staff presentation. Number one, the wetland. Um we believe that that is a depression and it's specifically related to a culvert that's installed along the roadway there. Um but we are in the process of confirming that um with our engineers and the city's engineers tomorrow in a call. So we are on that um the sidewalk consideration. We specifically um did design that with an opening at the at the terminus of the of the culde-sac there um for two reasons. Number one, it aligns so that there could be a crosswalk from the existing too curb and sort of not have two sidewalks and then you cross over to go across to another sidewalk. So it made sense we thought from a pedestrian standpoint. Um and then the other reason that we um designed it in that manner is because of the snow storage questions that Toro has um been really clear about. So snow storage has been a problem um for the neighborhood. It's always um been working to try to find a solution to be able to address that. We are leaving a large open basin um for snow storage to be pushed to the end of that court culde-sac. Uh then um the other question um was with regards to the lot size. Um, so the the lots do remain the same size. The frontage of those two lots is is less um than than what uh the the staff was looking to see. We believe we can easily make those modifications to uh create the the the full lot size. Um and then with regards to the construction access, so um it was our understanding that um construction access would naturally be limited to about that 90-day window um based upon the need to build out the infiltration basin and do some of the other grading on the site. If we can work collaboratively with staff to come up with a phasing plan to finalize that part of the project and use that for the entirety of building the homes, that's absolutely something that we can um make happen. So that is not a problem in any way, shape, or form. Um and then with regards to the landscaping plan in the Birming um in terms of the work with the HOA um number one we're we'll commit to of course ongoing conversations to make this work. Um the landscaping that we've shown currently um is designed specifically to retain those existing trees and that they have there and then also remove the box elder. We've talked a little bit about how grading could have an impact on um on the health of those trees. Um, and they are they're beautiful, tall, healthy trees. Um, so so retaining those we think is a a good natural screening barrier. Um, we did some quick work in terms of adding additional burming. Um, and we certainly can make that happen within that site and then off of the um off of the tree space. We also can uh supplement trees, but the trees that we have added and shown on the plan are specifically designed to fill in where there are existing gaps and where there will be tree removals um moving forward in terms of the plans. Um and we recognize that our our uh our letter of intent with the HOA specifically requires um a tree plan that we come we have a conversation that can be in excess of what we talk about here today and creates a long-term uh basis for maintaining those trees. So, those are all the things that were on my list. Um, but I am happy to answer any questions that you have. Um, or provide additional clarification. >> Yeah, I got a couple of questions. Island in the culde-sac. Has that ever come up? >> Uh, so Erin, >> and >> I love it when it's an engineer question. >> And then whose fence is it? Oh, I see. So, the um so one of the things that we talked about in our neighborhood meeting is that um retaining the uh the lowlevel fence, the the white fence um has something that has like a good aesthetic notifier that you are in Shabal, right? And so, uh the fence that's proposed for around the outside of the property is our fence. It is not intended for any form of containment. All of the equestrian facilities are going to be fenced by the property owner. Um and they wouldn't trust us with their horses anyway. figuring. Yeah. So, it's decorative. >> It is absolutely decorative. >> Yeah. And so, the current land owner is going to contain their own animals. >> Yes. And those pastures are going to be realigned. Um, you know, and and part of the the other thing that we talked a little bit about is the grading offsite. Um, one of the things uh that we pledged to do to for the land owner um is that we do have some grading that continues off of our development site. Um, and that's to set up uh the basis for u for better riding rings really for them. And so it's incorporated as part of our grading plan, but it's not necessarily an essential component of our development and that's why it's shown the way that it is today. >> And then um I'll just follow up on the, you know, the request of Burine indoor, you know, viewshed, um, you know, completes some viewsheds for the for the neighbors that are going to see, you know, see the actual new homes versus the new homes to the street. You know, I I'm not an expert, but you know, BMS work at a distance, right? When you have when you're 150 ft away and there's a burm and a tree on it, then the sight line works so you can't see, but right, I mean, would it even work? Do to have a burm that close to someone's front yard and I don't know if that's going to even cut any views. I would I feel like trees would be better like pine trees or some sort of arbor variety or >> Yes. So what uh Aaron Carroll with Houston Engineering um >> yeah the intent I think that was being brought up by Susie and others with that was >> that if there are BMS placed that there plantings along them and >> sure >> the landscape plan right now demonstrated a handful of trees filling in the gaps as Megan mentioned because there are some there is some actually really good vegetation along that existing fence. >> Yep. And um we can absolutely work with the HOA to you know refine what plantings go there. There are limitations from a grading perspective to maintain drainage in the patterns that they uh currently follow. However, we have the capability in portions large portions of that western boundary to create a flexible space. It is almost a full lot width from those proposed homes to even the out lots and then the street. So there's an excess little bit of room there. >> It's going to be a trade-off because they also don't want to impact snow. So you have to kind of work with >> Yeah. And none of that space behind the existing fence, the white fence, >> Yeah. >> is currently used for snow storage. They don't push it over the fence or anything. Yeah. So that is just strictly landscaped space andor used for grading and drainage >> purposes. >> Island. >> So the island was not pursued partially because uh just city staff hadn't specifically asked for it. I don't know that we have any reason against it unless there's a maintenance concern from public works standpoint. Uh it's almost has no implications on cost of construction because you take out pavement and put in a little bit of curb. >> Right. So maybe >> that would be I guess at the disgression of really how staff envisions that if if uh plowing operations and other turnaround feasibility, we'd have to review fire code to make sure because I don't know if those existing islands are >> Yeah, I mean obviously fire life safety has to be taken into account. They have one there. I this is a new one for me. I mean we get a lot of requests and stuff. I can understand how it would make it kind of feel like it's very similar part of the same neighborhood. So, >> the one thing that has to be in consideration for those islands is where street lights are then placed. Uh, they're often placed at the back of a culde-sac and then if the island blocks what that is intended to light up. It's counterintuitive there a little bit from >> maybe it's just prairie grass or something or nothing tall. Okay. Um I think this was in questions for street lights is city trees fusion uh you know the road well I can talk to the is it more for the city I guess I don't think I have any further questions >> I have a question about the temporary access and this may be more for the city I'm sure we do these all the time but I'm just I guess I'm curious to hear whether it's 90 days or however many amount of days >> when the time for the temporary access is done being temporary and it's no longer an access. What are the requirements to put that back to the way it was >> to make it not look like there's a road there, right? >> Yeah. Yep. I mean, that would be that would be the requirement, right? Um so, you know, basically putting it back in kind to whatever the status was beforehand. I think in this case it's largely pasture land. So, I'm guessing there'd be you know, basically just temporary gravel, you know, driveway built um the the truck traffic and things that would be using it for the time being um then removal of that and you know receding or or whatever it would be on private property at the end of the day. Um so I think you know the private property owner would have some say into that >> and I just to expand on that too the construction access I'm not you know you guys will work it out. I'm not sure if an exact day amount is the is the right approach. Maybe it is because things can get delayed, things change. Maybe it's I mean at some point homes are going to be there. Grain's going to be in the way. They might have the wetland or pond or or as the homes start to you know fill in or become enclosed once windows are on and like it's finishes on the inside at some point you know it's going to be normal kind of more normal traffic with trades coming in and out and it's you know they're going to need to access it from the other side. So I don't know h how you distinguish that but I'm all for >> think the objective would be to to to work with the developer to understand their grading and phasing plan >> um and you know seek out opportunities to try to extend the life of that >> yeah maybe it's for like framing that we can right >> you know framing and you know major construction and then once it gets to that envelope where it's closed up then the trades can use the regular roads and >> yeah I mean I I agree with you I don't know that setting a number of dates is the right measure. I think it's more tied to >> progression of construction. >> Progression of construction. Correct. >> Yeah, >> we have that right now right off of Big Woods over there. Is it enchanted or >> ensconced woods? Yep. So, we've got the temporary there. I think you know the big challenge that we experience with that um and with temporary accesses generally is that often contractors are utilizing Google Maps, right, to get to their destination. >> And so, obviously the the temporary access is not on Google Maps. Then it really becomes important for the developer um and the construction manager to be um communicating right with those contractors so they're aware of where that access point is. >> Yeah. >> Um because otherwise it it will get missed. >> Yeah. >> And uh ultimately GA Homes will be the builder for this site. Yeah. >> Uh and so they will they'll have control over uh that construction management plan. Um and they anticipate this is going to be a single season build. So >> great. try to get it done as quickly as possible. Okay. >> Yep. >> So I have a question coming to the street lights. Uh someone was asking. So is it like city has to say like what kind of uh street lighting there or like is it developers responsibility to I mean there is a request to match with the entire other community existing community right? Is it like city uh provides that street lighting and all? >> Yeah. Typically it's our city electric department. Now this part of town gets close to our boundary I think with either minbeck or excel so I'm not exactly sure well maybe you all know who you're electric correct it's Minnesota valley okay >> so there would be a coordination effort um with them and with our utilities just to make sure that you know whatever is being placed meets their spec and things like that. So I'm I'm assuming there's good reason why the street lights are what they are today. Um but we'll look we can have to look into that >> yeah we'll have to look into it and just whatever gets installed um you know ideally we're meeting the the feel of the neighborhood. Um but at the end of the day it needs to be maintained as well. So making sure that's doable. Mhm. >> On a big development like this, when it was first first brought, wasn't there some sort of overall plan for what everything would look like further on down the road from specs for fences to street lights to that type of stuff? >> So, there is a broader shaval HOA, master HOA, and then of course the To Villas HOA, which this will be a part of. Yep. Um, so there are general guidelines um and an architectural committee that will review this. Okay. Any further questions? >> Good. >> Okay. Is there any other further questions from the audience or anyone online? >> Okay. when you do the tree inventory which has been done and they're talking about the preservation of trees and and looking at uh sorry I should have come up here um they also probably need to factor in and I don't know if an arborist gets involved in because we haven't had these conversations with the developer but that buffer of trees that they're talking about and some of them that are going to have to be removed for the purpose of building the road we have a number of trees that are ash trees and we have been treating them for years and have that expense as part of the HOA. But we know realistically some of the trees that we're trying to look at preserving might be dying and dead by the time this plant starts to get to fruition. So I just I want to bring that up is that maybe that's something that might have to be looked at too when they ash the ash trees. >> Yeah. >> Okay. As far as the trees that are trying to get preserved, >> sure, >> they might not be, you know, realistic. >> That be worth it. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> It would make sense to just include that in the overall health assessment of the trees. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, >> Ted. Right. >> Ted, right? I I have kind of a silly question. Sorry that to ask this one, but who's in mailboxes? Do Do you have an answer for that? Yes. Because it would be a lot all at once where they are. >> Yes. So, the mailboxes will be relocated at the time um that the road is built. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> And then is the plan they're all going to be in the same place when they make these things. >> Uh >> it doesn't have to be. We haven't gotten that far, but I'd be happy to talk about it. >> Yeah. And I and I know that the US probably has some >> Yes, there there absolutely are. >> Okay, because that was one thing we talked about might want to do. That's easy to >> That's that's the least of our problem. >> Okay, I said question. >> Okay, you got to come up. Do you have a question? Anybody? You gota gota come up. Hi everyone, Ann Shuffleline. I live at 3734 Toaro Curve. Uh former board member so know the documents well. Um one thing that as I thought maybe I'd get more insight into as these meetings went along, but um curious question for Aaron or yourselves. >> Yeah. So, I understand the snow removal is left at the edge there. Um, why not space out the houses and be able to put the snow in between? I wasn't sure if there was another reason to put the houses the way they are. >> I thought the city addressed the reason was to make it match the current neighborhood. The spacing of the houses is done on purpose is to match the look. But there's a big open space at the end of the street. That's the thing that I was not quite >> Is that the wetland or still beside >> I didn't know if there was like a drainage reason that we didn't put houses at the end of the street or not. I don't particularly, you know, I'm not particularly bothered by it, >> right? Yeah. It's just like a bowling alley. But um and sometimes that can be more expensive for snow removal to have to you know take it all down and then move it to the end. But you know I will see to what the rest of the neighborhood would like. So I don't have a particular issue with that. I just didn't know if there was a reason that it's designed that way. >> Can I speak to that? >> Sure. >> Yes. Uh there actually is a very good reason to answer that question and this answers probably a few questions that came up earlier and in regards to the lot sizing. Um Ashley as part of her report shared that the limitation for developed area for this additional development as the remainder of the master plan was about 2.41 acres. This plan is very very tightly trying to match that number >> one acres >> and that includes the street rightway and the lots themselves. any extension of lots any further than they are now pushes that beyond that uh threshold. So that was part of the reason. Uh snow storage was another drainage and utilities running back behind the culde-sac was another reason for keeping it open. >> Had we not had the limitation of square footage, we probably would have asked for two more lots on the back of the culde-sac to be honest. But uh we're at a cap and that was probably the largest sentiment for why it is shaped and styled the way it is. >> So there'll be nothing there though. There'll be utilities under the ground and just it's an outlot. So potentially to court, right? Or >> court. You just push the snow right into the open area there >> that Yes. And it it's open to a a shallow and gently graded swale. It could be green space that if their families could use and play in that for sure all they care. I mean it's up to the HOA how they decide to maintain that space if they want to have it nicely moan grass or just left as natural prairie type area. Um again that that's kind of at the discretion of the HOA after it's turned over the lot. >> Okay. So >> that is nice too because you you get 10 property owners plus a couple on on that now have that view. Yeah. >> Straight down and kind of that >> Yeah. leaves it open. That is nice. >> You're not just staring at at the front of houses all the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Great question. >> Okay. Is there anyone else like to address the commission? >> All right. Is there anyone online? >> Uh there are a few people online. So far, no one has indicated that they want to speak. >> Okay. Then at 8:29, I'm going to close the public forum and bring it back to commission with any further questions or comments. I have just a couple for city, but >> more about that sidewalk is like yeah, definitely it would make sense to just connect with something which is not completely I mean just like to have that sidewalk and it's not going to connect anywhere, right? >> Yeah, it's not going to connect anywhere. This is probably I don't know I mean is there any I mean we need to get some exception to not to have the sidewalk >> that's actually what I was I mean if >> never have said this before but it almost like do >> somewhat connect it's like that book the sidewalk ends or whatever it goes nowhere like did do we need to have a sidewalk I mean normally I'm pushing for sidewalks but >> and that that too there are no houses I'd send to that and I mean cleaning the sidewalk and all those things like that is again a mess to whoever is living there. >> Your thoughts on that, Ashley? >> Uh, Commissioner and Chair, uh, the subdivision ordinance includes provisions that, uh, sidewalks are considered. It doesn't necessarily require them. Uh, the Shioval fifth edition did include conditions of approval that talked about extending that uh, public or excuse me, a sidewalk around that public street. uh that would require the HOA to consent to that to have sidewalk constructed on their property. Uh so I think you know we're willing to take feedback from the commission uh about whether or not a sidewalk is appropriate here. Uh that's why we included a condition that we want to continue that conversation because it it feels a little awkward as it is today and we and we recognize that. So there's, you know, there's there's intent uh with having the sidewalk and what we were originally trying to achieve with that condition of approval, but I think there's also realities uh that have been uh realized through this process that we also have to recognize. So there's there's a balance of reasonleness here. >> Okay. So for me, I can't speak for everyone up here. The developer is okay, HOA is okay, neighbors are okay. I don't have a problem with not having a sidewalk on this little group of homes. Um, the rare occurrences, I guess. >> Yeah, I agree with that. >> Um, and then just I guess the notes I was taking, you know, when you continue talks with the developer, doesn't sound like it's much cost one way or the other. Maybe they if it doesn't have any impacts to fire life safety, maybe an island on the culde-sac so it can match if they're the developers in agreement with that. Sounds like you're already working on trees. So, I know we we spent a lot of time on that. So, not going to touch there. I know you guys are going to cover the trees and the neighbor will work with the developer and you guys can circle up and make sure the views are screened as much as they can. Um, I think I think that the the view shed from the entrance I mean I don't see this impacting the overall look. I mean, it feels pretty rural out there when you're driving. I mean, I drive that road a lot. Um, and they're going to have some BMS and trees. And I mean, for when you're coming into the city from the north on on Bavaria there, it's it's like it feels like a horse >> pasture. Um, so I I don't personally have any problems with the burming in the trees that they presented. Um, I kind of understand the viewpoint of that they want to be able to see the horse pasture, too. It's kind of interesting. I mean, I get that. I would I think I would, too. Um, you know, and there's no difference in my mind from like I know it's a little further away. You're already in the city, but you're driving down Bavaria and you're looking across where that pond is on Grand Chaval and what's that? How do you pronounce it? Leave Lariv Road. the houses that face Bavaria there. You can see them from the road, but it's not like a a big deal for me at least. But, um, yeah, I think that kind of covers covers all of it. We already talked road construction. Longer the better, but at some point realistically, people are going to have to use the the regular road once the hoses the the houses get closed up, probably. I don't know. But I don't think there's anything I want to put on or add on to the stipulations. I think they got them pretty covered. I think there's just some more communication that needs to happen between HOA, developer, and city. >> I agree. Agree. >> Otherwise, it looks good. I mean, it looks like they're everyone's been coordinating really well with it. >> Hey, it's rare that you have homeowners, an HOA, a developer, and a land owner that are all listening to each other and kind of working each other. >> Great. >> Much appreciated on that. Um, my opinion on the island is if I lived there, I would love it. But I've also drove fire trucks for a lot of years and snowplows for a lot of years and they're it's a pain for both of those. >> Yeah. >> So, um, not saying I'm for it or against it. I they do they do look great and it would tie it into the rest of the community there, but snow pollen becomes a bit more of an effort and it'd be interesting to hear what the fire department would say in something like that, too. >> Yeah, a lot. You're like, "Oh, we hate that culdeac. Just make sure you know what you're getting or whatever." Um, >> otherwise I like it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Is there any final questions, comments? city staff. No. Okay. Well, I think we'll move on then with that. We have three actions kind of in front of us here tonight. And so the first one is a motion to recommend approval 19th edition at 39 temporar city council subject to the following 15 conditions. And I will make that motion. Is there a second? >> I second. Basa. All those in favor? >> I >> I >> opposed. That motion carries. Moving on with that, in conjunction with that first motion, we need to have a motion recommending approval of the reszoning from RR2 to PRD89 PL residential unit for the Shafal 19th edition based on the draft ordinance. I will make that motion. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Second. All those in favor? I >> I >> opposed. That motion carries. Final motion is recommend approval of the resolution to amend the 2040 comp plan to reguide the property at 3910 Bavaria Road from rural residential to conservation residential and adjust the Musa boundary. I can make that motion. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Second. All those in favor? >> I >> I >> opposed. That motion carries and that would end this part of this uh of our our meeting here. We can move on. So I appreciate everyone coming speaking your mind and and helping us tonight. >> You don't have to leave. You can stay if >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's not much more. >> Um so with that, we'll move on from the action item to other business. uh received the June 2nd, 16th, 30th, July 21st city council meeting minutes. I hereby will receive those. Um any other final questions for talk about roundt city staff? Can we have more construction in the city for >> Yeah, >> roads. Close more roads. >> Sorry, I was waving goodbye to folks. >> By the way, they just finished outside my house. They just finished Pioneer. They re outside the town course. They just repaved that and they painted the shoulders. I actually took a picture. I don't know who did that. Is that is that a mindot thing cuz it's a county road or who's >> it's a that's a county road. So >> they paint they they created like seven foot shoulders. We got like skinny little lanes. >> Oh, >> it's really bizarre. I I I don't know. I was like this is wild. Like all the cars are like >> You'll have to go over and take a look. I feel like they did it wrong. >> Yeah. I think well part of I let them know the chair of the planning commission lives off >> you want to annoy that guy and make a real skinny lane and super big shoulders. >> Yeah project so >> the shoulders used to be like two three feet like a typical now they're like five foot shoulders or something. It's and the lanes are skinny. It's >> weird. >> I don't know. It's weird. People are >> natural bikes >> maybe but there's a sidewalk there. Maybe >> we'll see it this weekend. And I think that's the only way to get to 212 >> from anywhere in Chaza. >> You're not allowed to go anywhere this weekend. >> Yeah, this weekend everything's closed down. >> Um, >> we're closed. >> There used to be like four 494 trap always like construction right like now Jaza become like new 494 like everywhere you turn right left everywhere. You see that? >> We have a lot of culde-sacs when we're done, right? Or not culde-sac, roundabouts. >> Roundabouts. Yeah, >> everywhere. >> What's the uh thought on the opening of 41 and and Angler there that that roundabout? >> So, I'm coming off of being on vacation for a week. So, things may have changed since last I heard. >> I heard it was delayed two weeks three weeks at >> what I what I had been hearing the line from the county was that it it was uh Labor Day uh to have it open. So, >> that they put out things and it's not going to be that. >> Have they pushed that? Okay. So, like I said, things may have changed while I was out. >> Okay. >> Well, how about Pioneer and is it 11 on the on the by the church there? >> Yeah. What has happened there? >> I hear a lot of complaints about that one. >> I'm not sure. See, that's you're you're quizzing me on a lot of county le projects right now. >> Okay. >> So, I I I couldn't tell you. I don't know the details on that one either. >> It's just sat there now closed for >> weeks. county decided to focus on just >> I don't know. >> No, it did like they they started the work >> months ago and did 90% of it and now it has sat >> probably because of the >> rate. Um >> I don't know. >> Okay. Anything for us? Anything we should discuss coming up? Any other joint sessions or something or anything we should be aware of? Nothing's scheduled as far as joint sessions go. I can give an update. Maybe Ashley's better suited than I am. The uh the community park uh project has been out for public comment for some time now. >> Yeah. uh the public comment period has now closed and so um those comments that were received I know we got a lot um and so we're going through and summarizing that and synthesizing it and all that information will help go into and inform coming up with that preferred plan for the site. Um so that'll be kind of the next >> effort right that'll go towards that. >> Are we going to touch that at all or does it just go to parks? >> That goes through parks. Y >> Ashley, were you on a video for that? Yeah, I think >> I know what you're talking >> essentially as they were leaving city hall to be part of that video. >> Uh the parks and recck commission reviewed the uh results of the survey for the southwest community park at their meeting last night. uh and Marshall Graange, the parks and w director, will be making a presentation to the council on Monday. Uh also summarizing uh what those results said and then uh what the parks and recck commission some of their comments that were made during their meeting. >> All for the splash pad. >> Yeah, >> the splash pad uh did rank I believe uh second of the list of items. So it it ranked pretty high. >> Disc golf That one fell lower on the list if I uh remember the list correctly. Uh there was some comments uh that were received that I think maybe suggest that there was some confusion about what disc golf was versus like a traditional uh golf course. And so we're working on digging through uh some of those comments to kind of figure out what some of those nuances are. >> All right. >> What was number one? >> I can tell you if you give me two seconds. >> I'm I hopefully I'm not like breaking any laws by previewing this too soon. Uh, we won't say a word. >> Uh, nature play area actually ranked uh number one. >> Makes sense. >> Yep. >> All right. >> Beautiful spot. >> We can go off record. I can I'll make a motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I opposed. We're adjourned. Whatever happened. Recording stopped.