um call to order the january 3rd 2022 special city council meeting so since it's a special meeting we'll just jump right into the agenda all right so mayor and council on the agenda tonight is discussion about a public works uh position so with that in more detail is regarding uh a job offer that was that was received by the public works lead position the current uh employee within that position and so at this meeting tonight um we i just wanted to let the council know that this was this employee has been with the city for quite some time this position covers a wide variety of duties so we do have this position covering the water treatment facility operations the wastewater treatment facility operation snow plowing and then day to day operations of the public works department so they provide a lot of direction within that department and so tonight we have not received a letter of resignation yet from this employee but they are in the process of finalizing their decision and before they made that final decision i wanted to i asked if they could hold off until i could bring this to council for further discussion so um i guess at this time i want to have the council discuss this employee leaving and if they are they want to talk about doing a counteroffer or um or not so um right now i'm willing to answer any questions i do have this employees i don't have any real uh a whole lot of information about what the other city is offering i do know that it's a a supervisor or a superintendent position that would be salaried and i've done a little bit of research on what we're currently offering and what i think we could offer to be competitive with what i think their package might be but i just again i don't know 100 of what is in that current job offer so i do have uh the employees current wage information kind of uh they're what we're paying them as a separate amount for managing the wastewater treatment plant and some other benefit details so if you have any questions we can kind of go through that but really it's kind of at the end of the day trying to decide if we are going to do a counter offer or not and maybe it's as simple as that right away deciding if that's what you want to do and then discussing details after so just to clarify this person who received a job offer from another city has not turned into a resignation but had the court let you know in advance that this was going on correct and because time sensitive we didn't have time as personnel committee to meet we everything's gonna have to go through the union so that's why we call the special meeting to talk about it so a first discussion is do we want to entertain a counteroffer or not if if if the letter resignation the person still hasn't accepted the job yet may not right so have we ever made a counteroffer in the past when somebody's we have so we we did as soon as i think it was august of 2020 when we had another public works employee what a job offer we did offer them a two dollar increase at that time and they did they did accept the other job offer um and then obviously there's been times when we haven't right right so what impact does this have on the union contract if any um it would have so it would have an impact on the union contract because we would have to do an amendment so any counter offer if the city decides to do so would have to go through the union and then the union would propose that counter offer to the employee and if they do accept it it would end up being an amendment to that contract for that employee but then you don't know again if that'll change anything else it stays in the if it stays in the salary range uh because they go off a percentage every year yes they increase so it doesn't matter how much they're making uh if it goes outside of that range i believe that i i i believe there would not be an amendment um but i think because that employee is already almost at the top of that range for 2022 i just i don't see it being something that we would so is there any impact to the other union members it could i i don't know that's the thing i there could be um you know those unintended unintended consequences of if you you know try and keep one person what will happen to the other two in the union i don't i don't know we don't know that at this time so in your conversations is it solely money i i don't think that this employee is unhappy being here i think they're just um i think they were pursued by the the city um and i believe from my conversations i don't know everything but i think it is money the other city close by fairly close yeah so right like he's the class a operator the wastewater plant so what happens well i mean that that's something that we're gonna have to figure out because one they operate water our water plant our sewer plant um the ability to get somebody in that has both those licenses i don't know if we'll be able to get somebody with that um i mean we could always find i think we would maybe be able to find somebody with water because most cities have most not all have water treatment plants not everybody has a wastewater because the inner metro tends to be on the met council system and so we would we can contract right we would have to likely contract back out for that and retrain if if we want to we would have to contract out and then if we did hire another public works we would have to in at some point decide if we wanted to retrain somebody in but that takes years to train somebody in to for that license so it's that's kind of like a future thing but immediate future we would have to contract it out like we've done in the past this person's been running it for about two years now yeah and what's the impact on the budget i don't know yet because i don't have just because this happened so quickly i don't know what a contract with an outside company would be at this time that and that's kind of the other discussion too is if we put it out for if we put out a position and we do get qualified applicants it just it's really up in the air because if we can get an applicant that has a water treatment background that would be a lot different than if we get nobody with a water treatment because then we would have to contract both of those out so it's just kind of one of those things that we don't know at this time and we're going to have to be able to work through if this employee chooses to leave and then right like snow plowing that's our first year having it in house right exactly so then we'd have to look to contract that out as well if yeah probably for the interim if we because we probably aren't going to get somebody for um probably a couple months and so uh again i don't know how how much if this employee did put in their notice how long they would give us to find somebody so it could be a month or two before we were able to get somebody new in and hopefully they would know snow plowing operations but and who knows if and any contract are willing to actually have room to pick up uh to pick up a whole city it's a good thing we just need a person we have the equipment we do have the equipment can you hire a temporary person for snow removal i i think we do have the ability per the union contract we do have the ability to do temporary seasonal people but um again something i need to look at definitely on the ability to get through this period and so this employee reports to you do you have to make more money than them like is there an impact there i don't think so like i i know that there's the pay equity report that needs to be filed and that's a bit complicated um that report is based on yeah i know it's what the report is trying to do is is make sure that there's general gender equality in positions based on the number of points a position is uh how a position is classified so it's based on responsibility um and based on the responsibilities that that job has you're assigned a certain amount of points and so um if that huh be way out of whack it could be we have to file it every three years i'd have to look at that pay equity report it doesn't again i i haven't had a chance to to look at how far off that throws it i would have to kind of work with the state to determine that if based on their points and my points if it throws things out but i don't think based on what i think the increase would be i don't think it would put it up as close to what i'm making as as we think maybe like based on like what i think their hourly salary would be so it is something i would have to look at but i i think there's other considerations that go into pay equity such as longevity like how long they've been in the position and experience and [Music] but again i don't i can't tell you right away but i don't think that the increase would be if if we propose an increase or what i'm proposing as an increase i don't think it would like close the gap as much as i think but maybe it could i don't know so if and if the decision is made to try to do some sort of counter on what what does that look like what what's the process so if a counter whatever the counter offer would be i would take that to the union and the union would propose that to the employee and then the employee would then accept or reject it we'd be countering blind because we don't know anything yeah but we will be countered blind to the other employee so we don't know before we have a resignation we can yeah because um that is one of the problems right we don't have that yet we don't know if the person wants the job yet but we know too you don't want to go accept one and then after then take it back to that i don't know if that's fair not in that small i don't know how tight of a community that it you know i know in medical devices where i work if you do that it gets around it yeah they and they don't people don't like that but so it's tough i don't know what to do could it be if we decided here yep let's make an effort could it be a negotiation could we meet with that person and the union and then kind of have a negotiation i mean figure out where they're at what it would take and get an idea and then come back or i i know this is time sensitive this right you know i think that's weeks and weeks without accepting or declining a job offer i would think yeah i think that's the issue is it's very time sensitive and i think right and we have to work through the union so it's kind of i think i don't know if we really have time to go back and forth so i think it would be more of a put a number out there see if they accept and if they don't then we just need to i don't know if you if you choose to um if we decide to do a counter you'll be able can you tell us in this meeting like what they're currently at like what your recommendation is i can tell the information i have for our in like hours yeah yeah yep i can so you already have kind of done a little bit of thinking of what you think would be a good counter right what i what i think would maybe keep them here again i don't know for sure i'm just guessing based on like positions i've researched in the area and with similar titles but i don't and that's kind of up to you guys to decide if that's what you want to use or not that's where right like is it really just for the money or is it because he is young and has a long career ahead of him and it takes him to that next level which puts him eligible for a bigger city in a few years it could uh right so then yeah because right i mean statistics show 89 of people who accept a counteroffer leave within six months well that's yeah and they have a contract they just approved it he was fine with the money the money was he just accepted it yeah accept it for the next three years so well that's the hard thing that's not the money yeah and that's the hard thing to know for sure like you we just don't know and so right like do we can we offer him what he wants right whether it be a title a career responsibility you know what i mean like he has a lead okay well if he's going for a superintendent like that's a whole different position and so my concern is by opening it up to that i feel like i might back to you i'm sorry larry by opening it up like that i i just i feel like we're setting a precedence for something that we don't even know what we're trying to accomplish you know what i got a question for you so i'm going to take a two minute recess um so i can pull you off for one second okay i'm gonna take two minute recess i'll be back thank you happy of all right thank you we are back then at 6 47. thank you no i mean uh going off that i do agree we don't have all the information and i don't think we're gonna get it and that's that's kind of risky you know because like what if there's a lot of what-ifs what if we do an offer but then in a few in a year or two we're in the same situation like what if it isn't just money like what if there's something else like what if this position does offer more of an opportunity that we can't provide and that that's the tough thing and um so i mean like we uh we offered the other public works person a counteroffer now granted they did resign and already had accepted the other position i feel like we should at least do counter something and yes we don't have the unknowns i know your status your statistic of 89 of people who decline offer or take a counter or finding another place but at the same time if i recall though we didn't know what his salary was that he was going to accept when we did it or the hourly wage again i guess right like when in my position when i have somebody come in and resign or have this conversation with me right my question is that's great i'm happy for you why are you leaving and we don't even know what what the that answer is so we don't even know if we don't know if it's a thousand dollars ten thousand dollars fifty thousand dollars and we don't even know if that's why he's leaving right and i have sat down with this employee and i have talked about um you know they have been with the city for a significant amount of time i think um i really think that they're a positive presence they've done a lot of really good things here and um i even told them it would be really hard to see them go because i feel like they're they've really brought the public works department farther than um you know by bringing things in-house and it will be difficult to see us try to rebuild that um i mean i think we can it just will kind of take time to kind of readjust again i don't think they're unhappy here i think that but again i think you're right there are some opportunities that we probably can't provide them and i so i think it i mean my sense is that it is a combination of money and maybe some opportunities that just aren't available in our city that another city can provide so um again we have opportunities that we provide that other cities don't specific to the wastewater and you know that's a whole different way yeah and every we do pay to train people for that license but then you do risk that person leaving but that's just in any job or career that's just how it is just how it is i mean yeah but that's where it's hard for us when we have such a small staff right now when your top person leaves you're you know it's part of it but yeah so if we uh decided we were gonna maybe get some so one the union's been a heads up on this right yep they're aware of so it'll be quick moving with them if we need to the nice thing is it's small with only three p it's quick to work with the union and get things done so that's nice but if we had to could we without posting it because we haven't would there be a personnel committee meeting tomorrow to if council gives direction to move forward or if it's not personnel two people and you meet with that person and try to get you know and give some direction i mean can we do that or do we have to wait through i think you have the ability to do like a very like emergency meeting um if you make an attempt to do at least reach out to people who want to be noticed for meetings so we have a few people that have requested whenever new meetings pop up that they want to be notified so if we put in an effort there is kind of a way around the noticing requirements um which i think that we could do um right but we have to get a hold of the union and see if we can do that right you can come in and meet with them and get the information too right yeah and that's right and i mean that's the tough part is that we just don't yeah you're right we don't have a lot of information and we don't we have to be careful too in an open session like what we do i mean two hours an hour is not going to do anything right but if it's only 65 000 your job two dollars will do what i would think so it's hard yeah and so who decides that is that the personnel committee like if we decided to move forward with pursuing the possibilities of a counteroffer we can set it up anyway we can set up the personnel committee meeting does it if we can't meet because it's too short and we decide we've done other times where it's well we just picked two council members in this administrator so we don't have a quorum and they meet or a council member or me or something you know or you can you can give the console and set parameters to work within kind of set things and then we'd have to come back have another special meeting okay and discuss it if that's what you know so there's going to be some time it's a little background so new council members are aware prior to the union we did want to move move this into a supervisor a job that was our intent and then they decided to vote on the union then we didn't and now we specifically made this lead position for this person because we at that time we couldn't take it to a supervisor job because then it might be taking some work away from the union people because we still needed that person to do day-to-day stuff mowing plowing not just running the plants or running the team so we couldn't do that because of the union we're a little handcuffed on it but we wanted to do that so we created the lead position so we could get that bumped up like when public works grew yeah and then when we knew we'd start growing and get some more people in here and as the city grows then we could take that person move them out and kind of just do running the two plants because he's not taking work from the other union members and would just manage the group um was was our our long-term plan but we're not there no when we'll get there try to make a lot of efforts to do what we could do within our guidelines so i mean to your point it may be he wants that title you know but we're speculating and we can sit here eight hours and speculate too so i mean in my honesty i think that we i'm i'm in the boat where i would like to counter um just because i feel like this employee is very valuable and a great asset to the team so i'd at least try to put something out there for a counter yes we don't know and i mean we could be in the same boat where he this person was very nice about letting us know about this opportunity that came about and not necessarily accepting it and and putting in his notice with us so there was you know some positivity in that sense instead of just saying hey i've accepted another job i'm leaving in two weeks i appreciate that so um i i would like to maybe even just this evening try to get something because i'd how long is this person gonna wait to accept a job you know that's how i feel as of right now is that i would be okay trying to come up with some you know like if maggie has some suggestions and where she's at and the in in my sense is the worst case scenario is they still say no and they're leaving for whatever reasons and we'll find out in an exit interview um and just you know you you can take the chance that they may find another opportunity that comes about but that's not we can't worry about that because it's not it is what it is i find this person valuable and i would like to counter that's the surroundings so let's do this then just a matter of time unless there's other questions specifically for maggie on how things i'll look for emotion then if someone wants to make a motion to entertain a counteroffer or not and how it how it would kind of look do we wait and have personnel committee and meet with the person or do you want to do it tonight try to get something blindly and throw you know kind of give a little direction in the motion on how you'd like to see and we'll go from there i think i'm not quite in the boat yet oh the vote of what to make a counteroffer well we don't have any no one's made a motion to even vote i mean we don't even have we will still have more discussion on it like we like we do but if we get emotion have a discussion and it's it fails we're not gonna we don't need to talk about anything more we can wrap up and get out of here but that's kind of my thoughts unless there's specific questions we want we can at least get that settled do we want to entertain the idea and and kind of how it would look okay maybe tonight is the right thing here i'll make the motion to create a counteroffer and discuss the parameters tonight as a full council instead of in a personnel meeting um and my main uh that's it okay like my main reason is because we countered another employee i think it's okay we have a motion to entertain a counteroffer and try to get some specifics today to present to the union and the employee correct do we have a second a second we have a motion and a second any further discussion now yeah here's why i'm not quite in the boat yet i value kyle's experience and what he's done and his work ethic but in from 2019 he's got a five percent raise 2020 got a five percent raise and i don't know i can't tell you what it was this year but um so that he's been rewarded for his his good work in good work ethics as a team here in mayor we've also invested a lot of the taxpayer dollars on top of the line equipment for the department and i don't know if he gets that where he's going and where he doesn't but i took that in consideration i mean he's not driving when he's doing probably some of the duties he doesn't like to do junkie equipment i mean the kubota the tool cat the new payloader the dump truck the ten thousand dollar plows on the one ton nice stuff um i took that in consideration the benefits are top of the line so i mean this this is probably a position that he probably wants he probably hasn't commuted to a job for a long long time i've commuted every position i've ever worked since i've been in minnesota so i mean if he wants this thing i wish him well but you know the precedence of counter-offering even though the city's done that before has i don't think it's ever worked um it was nice for him to notify us but i don't think it's a thing to be involved with in the union i think that's going to set us up for the next time maybe brian maybe we should look at with like look at him to promote within um maybe the public works i'm sorry shouldn't need his name but i think it says the president's worth the union now that anytime somebody wants to wants more money than a five percent raise which is awful good um it kind of sets us up for uh negotiations um the largest employer in the city pretty close to us with hundreds of employees their latest their last raise was in the last four years two and a half percent they're working without a contract right now so i mean just to clarify i don't they haven't been getting five percent raises they haven't uh three percent of two percent here oh three percent one year two the next yeah yeah oh so if you were putting them together in two years it came to a five i thought you were saying five percent every year it's not five percent every year but it's a nice race but yeah but and we got to remember it's a raise they agreed to yeah they were fine they were fine with it so and i didn't mean to cut in the annularity no but it's just that's kind of where i'm at but well i'm just saying the job market right now finding good employees is really hard it is and i do know that people are head hunting people and offering different things and all aspects of work different things and you know owning our own company you know what sometimes we do reward our employees when we maybe have inklings that they're leaving and we want them to stay to us it's you know money speaks i mean i know it's probably not all everything but that's why i just i would like to counter i know that um it sets a precedence but if we have good employees i think we need to show that we we want them to stay but then why didn't we pay him more yesterday if he's such a great employee i think that there was a lot of different discussions in previous councils on on what that range should be based on percentages and i think we'd always we were always low but you have to look at it and yes that's a union and everybody agreed to the contract like what mike was saying so there is there hasn't been a lot of pushback but sometimes in life you're not sure when to push and when to not push so that's why i'd like to offer a counter based on the studies though by what dd drowning and you have a drone but the points they assigned were within the range now right compared to other cities well that that range was done in 2018 and that was before the union so honestly i don't know even know how relevant that study is anymore and that was done when we contracted out the licensures for wastewater and water right but there's a stipend for that now right there is but that's not considered in the report that david jones did yeah that stipend came from we try to get it about how many hours a day do you spend doing those things and then taking that's where that came from we kind of factored that in okay you know there was some sort of thought i mean there was thought that went into that yeah i mean right nikki i agree with a lot of things you're saying i think you know he's definitely valuable to the city you know to maggie's point he's you know done great things i just have concerns with what we may be setting as a precedence for the union other union members and again if it's not just money i don't know i'm not opposed yeah i'm in the same boat i've been thinking non-stop about this since we heard about it and i'm right with you you know we all agree he's a rock star right i mean we know that we know we got a great employee everything is done for the community that that's a no-brainer but two more years the same thing or or the city clerk then decides oh yeah i'm gonna do it in this person you know it does set that it sets that but my initial gut is i typically don't counteract typically you know but um i gotta do it for the community too we started the precedence and when the last employee quit so i mean i don't know like if i had an employee come to me i would probably counter well i've had three leave in the last two months and i have encountered 90 of them and i had one just come and decide that they wanted to rescind their offer so i don't know if it was about money or not but um right like because a couple people leave and you get a counter and all of a sudden everybody's leaving and and that's where it was like i enough is enough i can't do it right i don't know i mean i'm torn i'm torn i'm i'm right on the fence i don't know what to do so probably one of my hardest decisions i've had i've always been pretty aligned what i want to do when i come in and open weast all around so i can still think i don't know honestly that's my honest i'm honest i i can tell you one thing if i do vote no because i'm still not sure of the the counter offer i don't like going into a blind so i'll probably vote no just because i don't like going in blind i'd like to have a conversation with this person and try to figure something and just to get an idea that was gonna be so like okay so we've got a motion on the table to talk about a counteroffer and you know whatever so like if we vote yes then we get into what the money looks like or i i can you help me clarify the process a little like what is what happens if we say vote yes and what happens if we vote no you vote no then it's based on nikki's motion that she made which would be to make a decision tonight then for package tonight with the console then um we that's not the route we would go i guess you could amend it or you could do another motion you should just do another motion we'll allow for another motion yeah you can do a motion to like get the personnel to do it but if they both fail then it's just kind of like it doesn't it's the whole thing was just to do the counter now as a full council instead of trying to like set up two more meetings and then get to the union and we're talking now it's going to be another week before we could even counter an offer to this person so so that's kind of my thought on why now and i understand there's a lot of unknowns and we don't know why the person's leaving and we don't know is it money or not and that person may not even disclose that information to us if we vote yes then we have to agree on a counter so if we vote yes then the counteroffer is 100 happening it's a counteroffer will happen and will come to some agreement we'll vote on each one like we do and and you know we'll hash through that and like i said typically when emotion fails we don't go back and but definitely in this circumstance we allow i'll allow for another motion if someone wanted to make something different if it happened to fail that's my concern and again i'm still on the fence of should we even counter i'm still torn on that um and without having conversations with this person i i don't i just don't know where he stands and what it is like i said our i hope it's not health insurance i don't think he can get much better health insurance than we have our pto probably lines up with everything our salary seems to be in line for the position so i i just don't know but i see nicki's point i mean we gotta move too we gotta be able to him but on the flip side this city who's made the offer understands how it works too that how cities have to do certain things they probably know we have a union they know we have to wait we have meetings every two you know they know the process too that it may take a little extra time you know in the in the private sector versus the public sector i'm just nervous that i mean i know we'll find somebody but so do you know what what city it is maggie and you're just choosing not to the thing is is i don't know if it's public record because i know that they had a special meeting but i don't know they don't have the video up i don't know if they mentioned their name his name or if they used a number or you know i just don't know what their record is yet so other people are applying so we're going to put a job offer to candidate number two and he's got his number and it's not public yeah and this person hasn't put in his noticing yeah i don't think that's fair to no disclose that information any other discussion and we probably should have asked you maggie on your opinion from a supervisor standpoint from here where you stand but i think we're in we're in our discussion now but if you want to interject no i i think i think it's very similar to what you've already been saying i have the same concerns i also think this employee is a really good employee i've it's been a pleasure working with them they're very proactive and very you know independent and know what they're doing um i would you know i want i would like them to stay but i also have the same concerns as well you know i don't know all the information about is it just money or is it something else are they gonna are we gonna are we delaying the inevitable you know and and so i well i think it would be a benefit if they stayed again we don't we just there's a lot of unknowns and um pros and cons to both in in it's kind of like again are we studying a precedent as well and so again i have the same concerns i would love this person to stay but again can we offer everything that they want in how long will that be good for you know and so i mean i think if if we still offer something that is still within our range of what we feel comfortable doing the worst case scenario is they say no and we're not and then it is what it is and we have to put out a job request and start working through the crazy that will happen because we both need wastewater and water and trying to find that employee and we may be in a similar boat that this other city is going through right now and trying to find a replacement so for me as the worst case scenarios they say no because we still set where we felt comfortable with a counteroffer and i mean even if we knew what why they were leaving and they were getting a certain dollar amount we may not ever be able to offer that and so then they have to weigh the decision on do i stay because of the convenience and i already know the job or do i want to move and for the other reasons and we just don't know and i don't know if meeting with the person really is going to change that perspective or provide additional guidance necessarily from what information we already know and so right to me like i we do not have the option at this point to make it a supervisor role or anything like that my understanding is no because it would take away job response time yeah and you have to hire another person to fill the lead role for this person it would take getting the union involved and that would take a lot of yeah adding that in and my understanding is that's why we created the lead position kind of that it's still in the union and if we could create a supervisor john ham come out and not do the work of other employees but then it's a three hour a day job running the plants and what do you do for the other five hours but yeah it's a possible i mean it's certainly a possibility it would be doable but it's not simple union's easy to work with they or they have been so i'm not overly concerned but so maggie do you know if this person has interviewed in the past i don't know or they haven't told me if they've interviewed so you feel like the fact that they've come forward that it's likely that they will accept the offer i think if they are able to [Music] i think they wanted some time to weigh the pros and cons but i think if in the end they've that city has more pros then they'll then they'll probably leave i mean you can expect it to be a fairly probably pretty good offer you know i'm sure he had to talk it over with his wife and his family make sure it's right for them but and that's my concern i don't even like again with everything else and setting the precedence and going through all of that if we can even come close we just don't know any other discussion and again i i think we'd all agree also i this person is very ethical i don't think this person's doing this to try to make more money by any means and in his mind is already hey i'm not even going to take and i'm going to throw this out there and try to get i absolutely do not think that's the case at all with this employee now do some employees do this sure and we may run into that one day but not i i don't feel this person at all would do that any other discussion all right we have a motion and a second to entertain a counteroffer for this employee and try to come to a consensus of the package tonight so with that all in favor say aye aye opposed same sign motion fails 2-2 and like i said my my hesitation is trying to get something together tonight um i'm okay i'm okay trying to get a counteroffer together um our hands are tied on some of it you know we just the process just takes time um and if the union is a part of it that's just part of that the roadblocks we have to work through but so with that i'll look for if anyone wants to make another motion are you available at all tomorrow tomorrow or this weekend it could be tomorrow we can do as early as we can not before summer i would say i can anytime after 7 30. that's going to take some time i just don't want to make a motion for the personnel committee if it's not if not available i just i mean i can't spend like three hours well actually it'll be later because we'd have to contact the uni if if there was a motion to meet with the union this person we couldn't do in the morning anyways i mean i know that they're aware of it hold of the union first thing i could you know at eight o'clock they may at 805 they may say sure go ahead i don't know if the union rep has to be here or not if they can decide not to i think they i mean we could see if they could zoom in i guess um i would have to figure out logistics yeah another special meeting this week or you could just do you could otherwise set parameters just for me or me and a council member to to figure it out i believe without personnel i mean i can anytime tomorrow except for i have to pick up my kids and i can't i can't take three hours out of work to negotiate this i would be able to probably offer an hour and just use as my lunch doesn't make sense just you that's fine if i have some guidance i guess true it's kind of getting an idea what it's going to be and it's going to kind of get that negotiation just this is kind of what it is and you're going to have to bring it back to council and then you know maybe a range and do we talk about that openly okay do we talk about that openly tonight no we would we talk about it openly tonight yes no it didn't pass so but to give maggie parameters yeah we would have to talk about that tonight but i don't even know if we need to get parameters versus find out what the salary is find out what the reason is and then you know you know we know we're reason i mean if if the person came back and said two dollars and fifty cents an hour it'd be enough to keep me you'd have to bring it back to accountant off come back says i need another fifteen thousand a year i think we know where it's gonna end up but i mean i think you could do a emotion that directs me to talk with the employee in the union to figure out what their request is and does the union have to be involved in what the employee's request is they have to be involved yeah okay so i mean i could reach out to them and see what their what get more clarification if like what would keep them but then yes i would have to again i don't know if they're willing to wait that's something i could get clarification onto you yeah right so that's just a hurdle we have to we have no choice in that by not yeah by not being able to by not make an off counter offer yeah because if i don't if i don't bring like a number to them we would have to kind of talk with them bring it back and again i don't know like what how long they're willing to wait to get to know that counter offer so that's that's just why this is also really complicated um you know when the offer was received i was notified i believe last wednesday maggie what's the what's the public works what's their rate of pay going to be in 2022. 31.78 31.78 you said and then what's the stipend 5 125 in 2022 which is it and 5120 five seventy one two two seven that's yearly base that's just base that's no overtime yeah right or or on-call with that base salary at that amount 71 maybe i'm not far off by the 90 000 the other place you know what's 38 21 if you take that as an hourly rate 66 102. wait what did you say 30 38 21 oh sorry that's not what we did oh 38 21 yeah per hour 79 476 477 where did you get that out of my brains i'm do we know how much overtime year this person makes average um depends on the year i would say it's usually between like 60 and 70 hours i think based on previous previous years i haven't calculated 2021 but um that's we usually yeah a couple thousand time and a half though so another 3 500. so for that person making that amount 75 yeah roughly 75 plus on calls on call so yeah 75 roughly 75. so what i i can tell you what i think it would take like money-wise again i don't know the other factors i think it would be between about 260 2.60 or three dollars more per hour but again that i don't know what that's only what i think for the first year like again i don't know like what their raises are like if they he this person has guaranteed raises coming up you know like i we would if we did offer that then it would be on the same increases as the union rd so you know we have to factor that in too like are those rate increases going to be okay for this person whereas i don't know if the other city is offering other raises so right just did it now if we were yeah we were three years into a five-year contract perhaps but literally four months ago we just signed it i i'm not interested in redoing this increase right by any means but yeah so that's what i i mean that's what i think six grand more a year is what you're thinking and mm-hmm yeah it's about we have to think it's about yeah at the lower end it's about 500 i mean 5 000 little over five dollars we don't count off for people i mean it's not a typical thing not that we haven't done it and i know we have but but i got to do what's best for the community also even if it's against my philosophies and for six grand to not have to hire train post um contract people you know but then again but again that's the same thing and i don't know that six grand is enough well i think that's just for the hourly so i mean that i mean so if you calculate what they would make hourly um plus it would be their on-call pay plus their stipend which maybe we would have to do a percentage on that too like i think it would be about what i think they would be making there i think is the stipend part of the union contract it is so that's where i mean weren't we paying an outside company significantly more money so i think the um yeah so if we calculated out if we have the same increase the 250 or three two dollars and fifty cents or three dollar increase i think that's between like a eight point five and nine percent increase then i feel like we would maybe you could always do it off of that wastewater treatment plant too because that's the increase we for the wastewater treatment plant we do the same increase each year as we do for the hourly you're saying hourly and then possibly looking at the yeah so if you did a waste water like the the stipend type and increase as well you could entertain that and then maybe that would be enough i don't know and then keeping them on the same scale moving as percent is like 400 on the stipend could you just increase the stipend and leave the hourly alone since that's kind of a unique to that position you could i guess it depends on how much you were willing to offer on that he's the only one that has the wastewater right right we have the ability to remove that stipend anytime we want so we could say yep we'll kick you out we could have we're going to give you 20 grand when he stays here oh no cut it back sorry we if it's in if it was in the union uh union but the union contract says we can remove that that's a special assignment it's called a special assignment for that reason that we have control of it in case we did bring in a supervisor now we're and let's just say kyle was running it we brought in a supervisor not being kyle we can take that now and give to the supervisor and we're not taking work away from it so we've done that specifically i think it would i just thought it would be one thing that would be like hey this is just specific for that for now for this contract and it doesn't affect any other any of the other union wages just this specific duty and it would make him happy to get his money if it wasn't because if it's the title then we can't compete but so i'm going to make a motion to entertain a counteroffer and have maggie reach out to the union first thing tomorrow morning trying to get the union rep and that employee and myself to meet and try to work something out and see what see what it would take to bring back to council and so it'd be me maggie union and the employee that'll that's my motion do we have a second a second we have a motion a second any further discussion and now knowing i just made it me just because i don't know people's schedules i not offended by any means if we want to have this fail because someone else wants to do it or have someone else join in or it's still going to come back to college it's still going to come back no matter what and we're just shooting in the dark we're not going to come to anything here tonight because we don't know anything so we at least got to sit down with this person in the union figure out what to take it might be simple to a 20-minute conversation we can bring something back to council right away have another special meeting to be done i think it shows good faith on yeah and and like i said i'll certainly amend my emotion if someone else would rather do or someone else wants to join but we can't have a quorum there obviously but i do want to move fast on this i want to get a hold of them yeah i can first think tomorrow morning and see what we can do i can put on an email maybe the union rep will say hey you know what meet with him i don't need to be there if he's comfortable with it and i i think they're pretty good about that they understand how this works we're not trying to pull anything they've been working great with us we're working great with them so i'm okay with just you just because i can't commit to extended times it still comes back in the end and my guess is you're going to come back with a range we're going to come back with something else yeah so that's an idea an idea so that yeah and no matter what we'll bring it back we won't make the decision of like there's no way we're paying you 120 000 a year if that's what it will still bring if that comes back i would like it to come i'd like to come back with whatever it is well still bring it back and give the opportunity and that was the intent of meeting today to have yeah you know personnel committee shouldn't be making that decision or have it come in and just let a good employee go you know it's not best for our community perhaps so any further discussion on that we have a motion a second you're clear on the motion okay we have a motion a second all over here say hi hi hi opposing sign motion carries four zero any other discussion on this before we adjourn maggie if i ask you like if if i had three guesses of the city and i guess the right one could you tell me yes or no no i wouldn't do that okay sorry i just again i don't want to uh i don't want to put information out that's not feel free to reach out to the employer yeah you can ask them i just don't want to make it but we can't publicly we can't make that i can't do it at a public meeting i i suspect he would tell you all right with that then i'll let promotion to adjourn i'll make that motion second we have motion a second all in favor say aye aye aye all the same sign we adjourned thank you all and we was the second larry hey