I think we only had like four losses or whatever, so it must have been pretty good. >> Oh, it was like 101 to 51. >> I don't have an agenda. >> Okay, are we ready, folks? Would you please join us in the pledge of allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to the Carver County Board of Commissioners meeting March 10th, 2026. Uh the next part of our agenda is the public comments. Comments that relate to an item on the agenda may be heard when that agenda item is discussed. Please limit your public comments to five minutes or less. So translated if the if we have something on the agenda already, stay off that topic. If you have something different than the topic or something that's on the agenda, we'll listen to that. Does anybody have something that's not on the agenda? It does not appear so. So, can I get a motion for the agenda review and adoption? >> So, moved, Mr. Chair. >> Second. >> Okay. I have a motion by Commissioner Fehee and a second by Commissioner Lynch to approve the agenda. Any discussion on that item? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Those opposed? Motion passes. Can I get a motion to approve the February 17th, 2026 minutes? >> Mr. Chair, I move approval with two exceptions. One, I think that the name of the gentleman that presented was Kubes. I just think it's a misspelling on Randy on page five. Yep. And then um I think it's our customary uh that on page five when we um 7.26. 726. Yes. That we um that we include the amount uh associated with that vote. So, if that's if that's standard practice, I'd like in the minutes to include the amount that we approved. Um, if it's not standard practice, then we can approve as is. >> Uh, the amount for which item? >> Uh, we we voted on uh increase of our administrator's salary. >> Okay. >> I I've forgotten we've done that. I had um Okay. So I have a motion. Do I have a motion by Udman and a second by Anderson? >> Um, sure. >> Okay. Any further discussion on that? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. >> I. Those opposed. >> Motion passes. Community announcements. Commissioner Udman. >> I'll get us started. I had the chance to be at Fix It Clinic this past weekend. I think we all know that four times a year our um environmental services partners with a group called a better society. To date they've diverted about 6,000 pounds um from our landfill and they have about a 69% fix rate. We definitively determined my item was not fixable. So that was a success. Um but it was interesting. I brought my kids along and they got a chance to see inside and it was a good education. So for those that aren't aware, if you have anything broken, a lot of um kitchen appliances, a lot of vacuum cleaners, other things, they uh fix those. I think the next one is planned for um July. Um a better society also hosts a number of community leaders on a monthly basis. Um this particular one they invited a guest uh from the Lift Up organization and I know that it's on everybody's minds the shifts that the state and the federal government are sending to our local um township, cities, and our counties. Um this organization takes a little bit of the burden off of that by if there's needs within the community. Um it's almost like a fund a need. um if somebody needs diapers for their family, they're unable to afford it. It goes through a vetting process. They can put those up and people can bid on it or help support those. And so, a better society in partnership with I know 40 or 50 other not for-profit organizations are are vetting to see if that's something that we want in our community and it's being used in other areas. And so, uh kudos to Better Society and Lift Up. Um, there was a gal in our community, actually, a constituent that happened to be at McDonald's with her family and she jumped and sprung into action when a member of the McDonald's team fell to the ground that was having a seizure. So, she just might have saved a life. It's rare that we uh stumbled upon those things, I'm sure, in our lives. We've had those moments and uh everybody did what they were supposed to do. Firet truck arrived in 2 minutes. I think the ambulance was there in three minutes. And I think that gratitude's my word this year. And I'm so grateful that people were able to respond so quickly. Um, not everybody can say that. Um, we all participate in different things at AMC, which is association of Minnesota counties. I had the chance to be part of the learning and member program, including research. The conversations that we talked about were recognizing the unfavorable tax climate for businesses and individuals in the state of Minnesota. Um, the research behind why 0 to 24 year olds are leaving the state at mass and why businesses are leaving. Um, and a lot of the conversation was tipping towards what are the actions that we can do at the county level to address those things. Um, I had a chance to talk to roughly 12 business owners uh since our last meeting and one of the hot topics was about FMLA and all these businesses from one way or another organizations were saying they're hit hard and hard and hard by some of the state decisions on FMLA. I know it's hitting our organization as well. These are real costs. Um, they're an additional tax and it's harder and harder for businesses to and entities to manage with their workers. So, we're very well aware of it and I know our legislative priorities group is looking at that and seeing if there's any way we can adjust those. Um, had a chance to be out at Baylor Park. I know we have a work session coming up about the expansion of Baylor and rethinking the future of what that looks like. The event this uh that we went to was the u the annual event. We have a chance to ski. Uh we kick sledded and we did a hayw ride and I think it's one of our most underutilized I think parks and so I'm looking forward to uh continuing to participate in those events. The community did a great job of showing up. The staff did a wonderful job of putting on the event. My kids enjoyed it, so that's always a bonus. Um, I was with a local mayor in Carver County recently and we were talking about best practices. One of the best practices that they use in their county or in their city board is at the end of every meeting they have board updates. Um, sharing what we're working on, um, what we would consider others to be working on and bringing what we're advocating for, etc. I thought that was a good thing for us to maybe consider um and maybe depart from community announcements to share those things, but I have a dedicated area of what each of our board members are working on and how we're furthering those promises that we made during campaign cycles. Uh Amazon, I keep tabs on Amazon because they're not too far away. I do think they have interest in potentially coming to Carver County at some point, but I was most interested by their labor force. I think they're now paying a starting wage of $22 an hour. And they also announced that they are offering $5 per week health care and $5 doctor visits. And so I keep tabs on that. Next one up, I think there was several people in this room that had the chance to be at the CDA grand opening. I was there as well. Kudos to that. I'll leave that to my peers to talk a little bit more about. But I think overall we had the boldness through CO dollars um to put $6 million in uh affordable housing and and start to address the missing middle and those dollars are coming out of the ground. I think 200 plus incremental units and so pleased to be part of that and the effort that went into it. Um couple more things. Uh number of us had a chance to be at Middle School West last week. It's probably one of the most important events that I do every year. Uh sixth, seventh, and eighth graders had a chance to ask uh city council members, mayors, and county commissioners what it is that we do in local government. And uh we also had a chance to ask them what is it that they want from their local government. Uh another most important event of the year is the chamber event. Um it hadn't happened, I think, ever until Commissioner Fehee and my me had a chance to do it a couple years ago. and it is the second most attended um Southwest Chamber event a year. Um this one was uh Commissioner Workman, Commissioner Anderson and myself had a chance to be there and uh we we ran the gamut on a lot of Q&A and a lot of conversations afterwards. A number of the conversations they desire a rural perspective to hear what's going on in the other half of the county. Uh conversations about FMLA, tax climate, future labor, and then overall affordability. And then final comment, uh my oldest had a chance to compete in the state basketball tournament in Champlain. if anybody has an afternoon to go drive up to Champlain and look at their growth, not only their big roads, but all the development that's followed after they put in those that investment. They also boast to have the largest youth basketball tournament in the entire nation. And so they are attracting youth people in mass um as as uh basketball and youth sports do. And I'm encouraged to know that we'll uh soon be getting hopefully a uh youth sports complex. Those planning stages are happening. So, thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Okay. Anybody else? Mr. Anderson? >> Yes, thank you. Um, I did have the honor of uh speaking at the CDA ribbon cutting for the Carver Oaks uh facility and I'm just so impressed with that organization um with just how mission focused and strategic they are. So, it was a great honor to be part of that. And I want to thank Commissioner um I I saw Commissioner um Lynch and Fehey there as well. Um I spent and I also do want to as Commissioner Udman mentioned um we had an opportunity to speak at the Southwest Metro Chamber. So I want to thank them for putting that on and thank Excel Energy for letting us use that beautiful space that they have um as a new business in Cover County. So So that was wonderful. Um, I did have the opportunity of spending last week at the AMC Legislative Conference and um, I want to thank um, Bobby Harter, uh, Representative Bobby Harter, um, Senator Julia Coleman and Representative Jim Nash for taking the time to to speak with me about some of our legislative priorities both at Carver County and for AMC. and um Jim Nash has done so much work on system modernization with the SSIS system that um will really help uh our HHS and um be more efficient and and there's more to do on that front. Um, one of the highlights for me, um, was Senator John Hoffman was able to walk in a room after being, um, shot eight times this summer. Um, him and his wife and and just to see him walk in was inspirational. and he spoke to us about leadership and he spoke to us about how important it is to build relationships and um in order to lead and and get things done. And so, like I said, it was it was such a highlight just to see him walk in, but to hear his words of wisdom and um just his grace and forgiveness after going through such an ordeal was inspirational. So, um I take that um message as an inspiration um for me as we work with people and build those relationships to get what needs to be done for the citizens of Carver County. And that's all I have. >> Well, and of course, uh Commissioner Anderson u Mr. Hoffman, Senator Hoffman has been a pretty good friend of Kyber County and always good to talk to him. But his uncle Norm, of course, rest his soul, was the impetus behind Coney Island of all things. Uh, same Coleman or Hoffman. Um, >> oh, Commissioner Workman, Cheer Workman, I have one other thing. I apologize. I forgot to mention this. Um, I did want to announce that, um, the CDA is offering rent assistance. Um, so I did want, um, to share that. Um, they're doing this in partnership with Bountiful Baskets. They're offering rent assistance for eligible families experiencing financial hardship related to unpaid rent, lot rent, and past dues. So, if you have any information, let me know. Apologies for not including that in. >> Well, thank you, Commissioner Behe. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to first of all, congratulations to the Central High School Raiders girls basketball team that are going to state. Uh they play this Wednesday at Williams Arena at 6 o'clock. So if you have the opportunity to support the Raiders, uh we would greatly appreciate it. And then also uh March 14th, it's Carver County Dairy Dinner. Uh everyone with an interest in dairy is invited to attend the annual Carver County Dairy Day dinner and dairy princess coordination. So that's uh this Saturday the 14th at 6:30 at the Mayor Community Center. Tickets are available now from area farmers and also the dinner committee members. Um also um a new business park has gained initial okay from the Chaza City Council. Uh plans for a major industrial and commercial development in the southwest corner of Chesca are moving forward. The Chesa City Council approved the concept plan for the Big Woods Business Park at its February 23rd meeting. This project will eventually encompass 378 acres of land west of Highway 212 off of Big Woods Boulevard. It's part of the city of uh also bordered by the city of Carver and Dogrren Township. In fact, two parcels of land within Dogrren Township will soon be annexed into Chaza to make the development plan possible through the orderly annexation. The 184 acres north of Big Woods Boulevard will house uh about 715,000 square ft of industrial building space. The south side of the industrial park, which uh encompasses 154 acres, will eventually be home to 1.2 million square feet of industrial space. So, this is very exciting news. It's the economic growth in Delgrren Township with the focus on the southwest corner of the city of Chaza. So through the or orderly annexation agreement, the economic, the industrial, the commercial development, through this expansion of a current established infrastructure, the sewer, water, electricity, roads are there. Uh definitely a proven approach. So congratulations to the city of Chaza. And then also, Mr. Chair, one last comment. Today is township day. There currently is 1,776 townships in the state of Minnesota. Those townships encompass 80% of the state land mass but only 16% of the population. So just think about that a little bit. Currently there's 11 townships left in Carver County. Originally we had 13. And so the population continues to grow in the cities and the population of the townships currently it's only 16%. So this evening um they're having their annual meetings and most of them are at 7 or 7:30. So if you do live in the township or you want to go learn more about township government, uh tonight is definitely the night to go. Uh they'll be talking about their annual tax levy. They'll be talking about fire contracts and just township day. It's one of the most visible examples of grassroot democracy anywhere in Minnesota. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Thank you. Uh Commissioner Fehee, there is a township in northern Minnesota called Workman Township. I don't know if you're aware of that, but uh I thought I would make everybody aware of that. >> I think it used to be called Fee Township. May we >> wish Lynch? >> No, our lives are complete. >> I'd like to congratulate Watertown Mayor girls basketball. They made it to the section finals where uh they took second place and uh one game short of the state tournament where uh congratulations to Nor Young America. had a wonderful job, but unfortunately they're going to run into a uh um uh a firestorm when you play uh their next opponent. Uh they have some really good players there. Anyway, I'd like to I'm a big wrestling fan as you know. I'd like to congratulate the the local wrestlers that I know of. Uh there were seven boys from Wakonia that qualified for the state tournament. Uh Ian Olsen who placed third had a wonderful job. Becket Marsh, Jacob S. Sawyer Nemitz Cooper Kuzzman Will Catherine who did very very well. He's only a ninth grader so you'll hear a lot from him in the in the future. And Blake Miller they also had two girls Brereslin Kirkpatre who took third and uh Bentley Jackson who placed fifth. Uh that was for City of Wakonia had a great job. And then the Raiders did very well too. They had five uh qualified for the tournament. Nathaniel Vinsky, uh Ryan Newbart, Parker Hony, uh Jud Paulie and Jack Clumpkin, and uh all had a wonderful tournament. They won various matches through there. And Watertown Mayor had five uh who qualified. Lewis Foley, senior, he did well. He qualified. He won a match. Uh junior Sully Marks finished fourth. Um and then uh Watertown was very fortunate to have they had three champions last year, they had three champions this year. Uh Joel and Titan Frederick's um Titan won his fourth title and Joel won his second and he was a four-time state uh place winner and uh so and u Caleb me won his first one at 152. It was a very exciting match. Uh very exciting. Um, but with that, I'd also like to congratulate Max Menali who at the Big 10 tournament. He took second place in a really hot hard fought uh he was ranked number two in the nation. He wrestled the number one guy in the nation. He went to overtime and where he lost a very very close one at uh so still they'll I'm sure they'll still wrestle again in the NCAA finals. And just as a Titan Fredericks has a state record for consecutive wins in a row. It's 194 uh record wins in a row. He hasn't lost a match since ninth grade. Eighth grade he lost a match. His final career is going to be his his final career in high school is 234 and three. >> Wow. >> That's impressive. and he's going to be both of the Frederick's boys will be wrestling at the U next year and where we'll have uh three Carver County residents uh uh wrestling at the for the U the rest biggest wrestling uh team in the state and I'm looking very forward to going down and seeing all three of them. >> Excellent. Uh I'll stay on sports a little bit. I am disappointed Minnotonka Skipper boys hockey lost in the championship to Morehead. I know Morehead is always sort of a favorite and everything else, but uh I wanted Minnotonka. Many of those people are my constituents. Chaska boys disappointed uh good team but lost um and not making it to the state. And finally, Ellen Derding uh has passed away up in Chanhasson. her and her husband longtime gambling managers, very successful gambling uh outfit there at the Chanhass and American Legion and uh but uh still a young lady and uh but passed away. So, God bless her. All right. Can I get a motion for the consent agenda? >> Move approval, Mr. Chair. >> I would second, sir. >> Okay. I have a motion by Utterman and a second by Lynch to approve the consent agenda. And I know Commissioner Anderson maybe wanted to say something about item 2.9. >> I did. So, thank you, Chair Workman. I appreciate that. Um, item 2.9 is um for law enforcement correspondents for multi-level hiring. I think um Sheriff Camrode has done a nice job of of wanting to bring in a um mental health worker and um in order to support his staff. um that's been a very difficult role to fill. Um and um so I think it shows a lot of creativity in in trying to um hire at different levels and and see see what can be done there. But I think it just speaks to both the creativity um of of sher of the sheriff's department in trying to keep a focus on mental health um but also the real challenge of hiring qualified um mental health workers and and we have first street center in Waconia and um and other mental health workers that we we hire. So, I appreciate um the county really working with the sheriff's department and and trying to to figure all of those out and keeping mental health at the forefront of of our priorities. So, that's all I wanted to say about that. Thank you, Chair Workman. >> Okay. Thank you. Any other discussion? Commissioner Rutderman, >> I concur with Commissioner Anderson about the co-respond. I think we have two funded and it's been hard to to get those. I think that's been something that's gained some momentum and a and a bright spot, I think, for our sheriff's office. Um, I had a question about 28, which is the Miller or Keller Kelter Steining. I always say it right. Steiner Kelting mental health facility. Are we on the hook for that 98,000? Um, Dave, or is that um something that they should absorb within the contract that we have with uh uh people? >> Uh, Mr. Chair, Commissioner, I'd have to follow up on that with staff. We'll get you an email response. >> Okay. Um, and then of course the arrangement is is they're operating it. We still own the underlying land of that facility. um it is a mental health facility within our community. It was a prudent decision to have that being operated by a third party, but as as it relates to the maintenance, I was just curious about that. And then last thing, as we're going through, um I think this is also a tribute to um Lynon and his team, all the things that have come out of the ground and they're come to fruition on consent. We've got funding for 212, Highway 11, Highway 40, Highway 5, all the things that go into it, the complexities of that, and sometimes we miss it because we just brushed it under within the consent. But there is in the last five years there's historic road construction projects. There you are, Lyndon. Um, thank you to your and your team because I know that sometimes we miss some of those details and it just happens. Just shows up, we sign it and off it goes. So, thank you for those things. >> Okay. Any further discussion on the consent agenda? If not, I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say I. >> Those opposed? Motion passes. The regular session item 3.1 consideration of ordinance limiting firearms used to take deer. >> Good morning, Mr. Chair, board members. I'm here in front of you today to ask you to consider an ordinance to limit firearms used to take deer. Uh the agenda for the presentation, which I it'll be brief. I'll give it to this morning. I'd first ask if you could open a public hearing. This is a will be a formal public hearing. >> So move. >> Second. >> Okay. I have a motion by Lynch and a second by Anderson to open the public hearing. Any discussion on that >> hearing? None. All those in favor say I. I. >> Those opposed. Motion passes. We are in a public hearing >> and we will be asking uh for public input as part of today's meeting after a brief presentation. I would note that we did receive two emails. One from Kyle Harms. that unfortunately didn't give us an address. There was another from Tony Schmidt from Watertown Township. Both of those emails were in favor of no firearms restrictions and I'll go through that uh in a minute. Uh I would start by saying pretty excited to be in front of you. This is uh one of my favorite topics as you know a very I'm a very avid uh deer hunter. I don't want to age myself too specifically, but boy, it's been over five decades I've been chasing that majestic game animal around. And most of all my time has been in the shotgun zone. I'll describe that in a map here in a second for you because I know some of you aren't as up to speed on this issue. So, I want to make sure I'm covering some basics. Uh, but I, you know, now for many years hunted in the bluff lands of Houston County and I used to hunt in the farm fields around Wilmer, Minnesota. So, I've got some sort of that experience. uh uh you know topography which is one of the issues that we'll touch on today but many many issues that that need to be touched on. I'm trying to get get this down pretty concisely into the relevant uh items that you should consider. Uh including uh one of the key ones that I'll start with, you know, quite frankly a bit frustrating that this and this is debatable certainly, but a bit frustrating that legislate legislators handed this decision to county boards uh in the shotgun zone area. I would say a little ironic that usually and the board's taken formal positions on local control in this case. Uh maybe maybe it would have been better to just say either it's going to be this way or the other way, not have this sliced and diced up as county boards deliberate this decision. But be that as it is, uh the fact is last legislative session the the legislature did adopt uh they they basically eliminated the shotgun zone and then said well if if any county that's in the shotgun zone uh wants to stay shotgun only, then they could adopt an ordinance. And you can see the the relative language on the the board here. Uh, does the pointer work? Oh, maybe not. >> That's not working. That's okay. You can see the underlined language here that that a county board located in a shotgun zone may adopt an ordinance after the notice, etc. Uh, that may limit the firearms, which basically means you could in front of you today is that consideration. Do you do you want to adopt an ordinance to say, "Yeah, we want to in effect keep it the way it was and allow for shotguns uh in Carver County." So, as I go through this, that will become a a little bit clearer because it does get confusing, which again is one of those topics, you know, there's enough regulations out there on on hunting that this would add to potentially the complexity of that. As you look at the the hunting zones map, which is pulled right from the DNR regulations, the 2025 year hunting season, you can see that kind of orang-ish line in the middle. Here's a zoom zoom up on that line. Uh north of that line was the old uh rifles uh zone and well south of that is the shotgun only zone. Again, this is what the legislature has said, okay, there there's no line anymore. And again, counties below that line have the option to uh stick with the shotgun uh shotgun, not shotguns only or just I'm sorry. Yes, to stick with the shotguns only if they adopted an ordinance. So, a little bit difficult to read this, but from you know, if you start on the or to see the on the map here, if you start on the eastern side, that's Taylor's Falls area where that arrow is on the eastern side and then it crisscrosses to St. cloud uh circles sort of north of Alexandria up to the Clay Clay uh Norman County line. Don't ask me exactly how they they drew this line, but this was sort of that official line in the regulations. So, literally back in if you're hunting in 2025, if you're on one side of the road, you you you couldn't use a rifle. If you're on the north side, you could. So, so again this line in effect is going to go away. making it a little even more complex is if you look at Carver County overlaid uh across the entire state of Minnesota are what is shown here deer hunting zones and again this is in the the regulations but I did for ex you know just to clarify in Carver County I think what is there five zones with the main zone being 338 which certainly if nothing else adds to the complexity and confusion if you saying, "Okay, well, in Carver County, it's going to be different than other adjoining counties." And I have some information related to that later in the presentation. Uh, I'd also give you a perspective on uh I was asked, well, how many hunters do we have in Carver? How many deer hunters do we have in Carver County? Uh, there and and it was hard there. I couldn't find the data, but I I was able to sort of piece it together and estimate if you look back in 2024. So for zone 338, which is our biggest zone, there's around 1,264 hunters. So uh and again to keep this in perspective, uh almost 600 deer were harvested and 414 of those deer were firearms related. So, if you you add up and and estimate the other zones, I would estimate there there's around 24 hunt uh hunt hunters in Carver County or hunting in Carver County and around a thousand deer harvested. And again, those are just highlevel estimates I've tried to piece together because I I couldn't find the data set that exactly specified Carver County, but it does illustrate and show there's a lot of interest here in Carver County. And I, you know, I would say, uh, those of us that hunt, we're pretty passionate about it. There's a lot of tradition behind hunting deer and even for, you know, those for those people that don't deer hunt, there there's interest, you know, there's interest in the the the uh the the animal itself, the the nature surrounding it, uh, all the way to, you know, you don't want to hit one with your car, right? So So you want to manage this this majestic animal, right? So all those elements come together to make it uh again a very important uh topic that we're talking about this morning. So some of the basics here, the issue overview, I know I know not all of you hunt and I think maybe there you know if you're really basic at the at this you might say a shotgun that that shoots out BB shells. That's not what we're talking about when we talk about shotgun. There's an illustration of one type of shotgun shell that would could be used or would be used in the old shotgun zone. And and by the way, I know Commissioner Lynch and Fehee and Commissioner Workman have all hunted. Commissioner Lynch is our local ballistic expert here, so I'll need to lean on him if we we we don't again I don't think we need to get into too much of the technical side, but it really kind of devolves into that quickly because of the issue. But it does. I just wanted to start, you know, with a basic. On the left is a rifle. On the right is a shotgun. You can see some examples of the rifle shell below that picture. And then an example of >> Yep. And you should point out you should never shoot from a hard surface. Always put a a hat or something underneath so you have a soft surface under your gun. Otherwise, you'll cause you to get high. >> That's why I put that there. I was making sure you'd catch something like that. I'm not happy. >> Safety is so important. >> And we will. Yeah, it is important, you know, and part of that relates to safety, etc. and we'll talk a little bit about that today. Good catch. Interestingly, so you look at the history and I I didn't realize this until recently going all the way back to 1942. I thought if you would asked me a couple years ago, why do they have a shotgun? And I would have said, well, that's because of safety. It really that really wasn't the history. The history is uh really more about deer management when deer populations were low uh south of that line that was on that map. And uh with the theory that uh shotguns are less effective. And now you need to understand the shotguns have come a long ways since 1942. They've become much more accurate. They've changed significantly. There are now what are called Sabo slugs, which is what I personally shoot for example, that are much more accurate out to a longer distance. And I'll get some illust information on kind of how does that compare to a rifle, etc. But but again, that's that's a history interestingly uh and it has been debated. There's a gap there that I I'm not showing, but uh this issue isn't a new debate at the capital. Uh but in in 2025, as I've noted, uh the legislature did approve this elimination technically of the shotgun zone and then this allowance under statute for for county by county that that you know those counties that were in that old shotgun zone to adopt an ordinance that would basically overturn that. And that's why we're sitting here today. Uh related to that, I have been in uh contact, by the way, with our local DNR officer. Uh I I invited him to come. He's probably not here today. Uh what he told me was, you know, the DNR hasn't taken an official position on this, so they're allowing counties to to vet this out, but we do want to, if you're going to adopt it, I think it would be wise then to adopt it to meet their notification requirements to include include those in their regulation book. and what they've asked is by May 5th that we would notify them and then of course uh what I think should be an official holiday November 7th maybe that whole week or two uh opening firearms season begins. So those are the key dates of top of mind uh mostly uh what comes up as this issue is discussed and debated are safety concerns. I think one of the to me I as I've done this research and quite frankly my my view this has changed as I've researched this and become more familiar with the issues but but certainly of top of mind it always comes back is it ne not necessarily the weapon it's or the the firearm it's the hunter behavior and the action taken that's the critical factor that that that is the key and education is part of that key but it's really that behavior that is so critical when it comes to you know debating this decision. So I always sort of go back to that as your base as you're thinking about what should be done here. Also uh you know I put up here circumstantial risk. What do I mean that by that? It really sort of depends. It depends on the so many variables the safety issue does. For example, topography. Uh is there some something to stop the projectile? You know Carver we have Carver County we have rolling hills. you know, is that's a little bit different obviously than some of the flat cornfield areas that I've used to hunt. Uh, for example, you know, there are many other variables, you know, from from the, you know, woodlands you may be standing in to the elevation, if you're up in a treeand or not, etc. So, it's really circumstantial risk that we're talking about when when it comes to safety. And I've I've noted some of those uh other you know multiple factors and the complexities as I've mentioned the the shell the shell type load size I just put a few pictures up there but you can really get technical with the ballistics behind the the various ammunition especially uh uh as this ammunition has evolved over time but I think you you can to some degree simplify that and go back to some of these basic uh concerns as you deliberate this issue. I did pull and try and find uh what I could in terms of related studies. Uh, I was a little surprised to find that that the key ones that I found and are most often cited, including those listed on the board here, basically concluded that the at the according to statistics and what they could pull, uh, for example, the Minnesota study, this was one down in southern Minnesota, that the probability of hunting accidents, uh, uh, would the incidents would not in increase if in fact in that case as one of the southern areas would go to the right uh would would allow for rifle hunting. And similarly in Pennsylvania uh they concluded shotguns were not inherently less risky. Uh and similarly in Wisconsin, our next door neighbor and this is more uh you know showing what actually happened over a period of time. statewide rifle hunting there had showed that there was actually a decline in incidents. Now, as we all know, statistics and how you assess those can be interpreted in a variety of ways. And I've heard, well, yeah, Wisconsin says that, but but they're hunting with rifles decline. You know, the peer numbers of hunters that that's true now. No, but again, I'm sort of telling you and I'm what I'm what I'm outlining here is is what I've found generally in the research that I've conducted and I did not find re research conversely that at least with statistics showing that if yes, in fact, you were to adopt or you know allow the rifle uh ordinance to take effect that it would be inherently more risky. But again, of course, remember risk is defined not only by the the firearm, but by the behavior of the individuals. That doesn't change. >> I did pull then some statistics uh from Minnesota and you know looking just to keep again this in perspective. You can see that the total incidents in the bottom right hand corner there 104 slightly over half of those were shotgun related. So an indicator of uh you know how that weighs out in the u the very circumstances that that unfortunately folks have put themselves in. It gives you some idea of the past incidents which may be a reflection of how things go into the future. And this was 23 years of incidents. Okay, not to dive too deep into this but ballistics on the top. You can see some examples of rifle cartridges on the bottom. You can see uh there I did put uh I mentioned that the term sabo slugs on the left. You can see the the more pointed slug. That is a sable slug. So that that particular round would be much more accurate, fly much further than uh the one on the right, which which I personally used to shoot those. Highly inaccurate. I've told the story of struggling to hit a deer several times at at you know pretty short distance 40 years. >> Tim likes to pick on me about that. But >> I was just a kid at the time. How about that? >> But but truly those those shells have definitely changed and evolved and arguably then uh you know come closer uh put it that way to a rifle round. Not necessarily to match a rifle round, but they have definitely come closer. I did also add, and this is a little dangerous to add because it's not exact and ballistics are pretty pretty technical, but just to give you an idea, on the top you can see a rifle round. In this case, I picked a pretty common round, which is a 30 six. Uh, arguably, yes, that that bullet travels much further, almost almost uh four and 3/4 miles, almost five miles. Now, having said that, is that is it effective at that range? Absolutely not. I mean, there are individuals, if you're set up right, that you know, can reach out to 500 arguably maybe even more. I've heard of 600 yard shots, which, you know, you get into the ethical issues of how far should you shoot, etc. But, but I would say yes, uh, rifle cartridge like that effective, if you're set up right, definitely 3 to 500. And I also put ana, you know, conversely, an example of a sable slug, in this case, a 12 gauge slug. Uh much uh lower uh travel distance, a half a mile to 3/4 of a mile in this case, and an effective hunting range. Uh you know, I with I I actually shoot a 20 gauge, but I can I can put a shot on a 100 pip plate at 150 yards. Uh so so that gives you some idea of the differences. And I think a lot of folks start at with this and they say, "Well, then yeah, but a rifle must be much more dangerous." But think of it this way. You shouldn't be shooting, and ironically, I pulled that graphic from the internet. You shouldn't be shooting a rifle like that, >> right? You shouldn't be you shouldn't be lobbing shells up in the air. So you shouldn't be, you know, even shooting over a hill if it's a whether it's a rifle or a shotgun. That's a safety issue, right? So it you always go back to that. Uh but that graphic does show the sort of the basic elements of trajectory, right? The the gravity is going to pull that bullet down eventually and arguably now at at four plus miles that projectile is not traveling. I think I've read that, you know, it almost falls out of the air at that point, but still could be dangerous certainly. Right. So, so this gives you just some basic fundamentals of the differences between the two with again there's there's much more to it than just these uh distances including these other considerations I've I've already mentioned and this picture of the old rules in front of you on the screen there. I think I looked at the number of pages in that thing. Uh, of course, those that those of us that hunt know every word of these things, right? Uh, 175 pages to that book. So, really complex uh already. And that's one of the issues is you want to make it more complex. That's a question for you. Uh, shotguns. Uh, also, if you a little bit of a different way to think about this, if you were to let let this issue go in effect to say, "No, we're not going to adopt an ordinance. The rifles would be allowed." That doesn't mean shotguns would be would be outlawed. For example, in Carver County, you still could use a shotgun uh and a rifle or or and or a rifle uh if in fact you did not adopt an ordinance. Uh in addition, of course, we have uh property owner rights here. Landowners can certainly be be more restrictive on their private property. So, a land a landowner could say even I'm not going to allow any firearms. I'm going to allow archery, for example. That's a prerogative of that landowner. Uh rifles are already used through rifle caliber hand handguns and uh and during coyote hunting. Uh actually I hunt one of my hunting uh partners hunts with an AR style. It's really a rifle and and Tim Mr. Lynch could help me out here, but they're really more rifle like, although they they have a pistol grip, so they're a little bit different, but much much more similar to rifles in the shotgun zone. Those are already being used under the old laws and would continue to be used. Uh, interestingly, this was one that also u as I thought about it does make sense that the higher probability of those ethical shots, rifles are much more accurate. you have much more precision uh typically, not all the time, but typically you'd have a higher powered scope. So, you have an opportunity then to make more of an ethical shot with a rifle. It's one of the considerations for you. Uh other final considerations that rifles are generally lighter weight, a little bit less recoil, maybe important for maybe younger kids or uh maybe for elderly that uh may may have struggle with the weight or maybe have a shoulder that you don't want impacted by the bucking of a shotgun, etc. And finally, uh, again, a variety of issues here, but rifle ammunition is generally less expensive. And I know because I buy those Sabo slugs. They're about six bucks a shot. And it, you know, you could say, well, it only takes one shot, but you want to practice, right? So, I found myself limiting practice. I mean, how many $6 shots you going to take? Which is an issue, right? You want to make sure your your uh firearms are accurate and on target. Of note and of importance, as I mentioned, the complexity of the rules, I've showed those uh maps and graphs, I'm sorry, maps, multiple maps, maps, including all those lines. Uh I think it's important to to to uh try and line up with what other counties are doing. to some degree this relates to the that legislative decision, right? But for the most part, you can see that our surrounding counties have are not adopting an ordinance. So, they're allowing in effect this new law to take place, which would mean that for the 2026 season, rifles would be allowed then in Mloud, Scott, Sibi, and Wright County, which are all adjoining to us. I couldn't track down Henipin. uh their information. I I I do have a meeting with their administrator uh next week. I could update you if she she knows. I'm I'm thinking I they don't have townships in Henipin County, so they may be just defaulting to the city's ordinances, their firearm ordinances, which are much more restrictive and allow, you know, they're allowing them to make their own decisions. and then across the state. And I would I would note this is evolving quickly because the uh other counties are under the similar time frame as us trying to figure out what to do with this. But uh I could only find three at least as of yesterday. Pope, Wilin, and Rock that did adopt an ordinance and went shotgun only. Uh others may have action plans. Some may be meeting today. I'm not sure. Trying to keep up. But I do know again this that information that's above that line on our uh surrounding counties. So uh Mr. Chair, what I'm looking for are uh your own questions and then of course we want public comments. I did want to give you a recommendation uh that is inclusive of all this research to guide your decisions. But my recommendation would be to close a public hearing and take no further action, which would mean uh that would allow the the law to allow rifles and shotguns and other firearms to go into effect without restrictions on on those firearms. Uh or conversely, if you wanted to after you're hearing from folks here or you have different thoughts, you could certainly continue the public hearing and then consider ordinance adoption at a later date. I I didn't get in front of you the specific ordinance we'd recommend, but there is a good example in your packet. There's a letter from the DNR that included a some language uh in the pack and I think there was also an AMC flyer in the packet. I think I covered most of the ground that was in that flyer. So, with that, Mr. Chair, I'd start with questions from the board from you or the board. >> I would start with one of your recommendation. Was this your first recommendation? >> Yeah. Uh, Commissioner Lynch, uh, Mr. Commissioner, uh, Mr. Chair, we've had some good debates internally about this. No, I I started in a much different place. Uh, maybe it was out of self-interest. You know, my initial thought was uh, you know, the deer that walks by me at 200 yards, somebody's going to take a shot at it. So, a little selfishness there, but but it, you know, put that aside. It's really, that's not the issue. It's to me, it was more about the safety element. That was really my overriding thought was, well, why would you allow rifles? That that sounds much more dangerous. And I've again outlined some of the issues here. And I haven't gotten to everything here. I mean, for example, uh there's information that I've heard heard and read about ricochet of shotgun bullets, for example. They're much more like likely to ricochet at close distances. uh much more likely to and I've experienced this take multiple shots at at a deer even if it's running which is perhaps questionable ethics right but you're you got a pump shotgun you whereas a rifle you may be more precise right you may wait you may think well it's going to run and stop and I'll still have that ability to hit it so all those kind of thing that's it's persuaded me to to I'm not I'm not telling you that is the the the absolute final right answer but I wanted it to guide and uh and give you that recommendation. I know the sheriff's on vacation. Uh Chief Deputy Patrick Bar's here. Uh the sheriff also uh I know he would support this recommendation and we've we've talked and went through sort of the safety issues and if you want to hear from chief deputy, you could do that, Mr. Chair, but put it back to you. >> All right, Commissioner Udman. >> I'm probably the one that knows the least about this. So, thanks for the presentation. I've learned a lot. Number of emails. I think there's a lot of people with opinions in the room. I start from a place that's your land. You do whatever you want with it. But I always ask the question of what's the impact to the neighbor? If you got a shot that goes five miles, the chances that it goes to somebody else's. So, what are the protections or precautions for somebody that you do whatever you want on your land, but if it touches my land? How does that how does that work? >> Uh, Mr. Chair, Commissioner, that's a good question. I think uh the way I would think about that is number one, you know, technically you shouldn't be shooting at a a deer that's not on the property that >> that you have permission on, right? That's illegal. Uh but it goes really fundamentally back to the safety issue. You shouldn't be taking those shots where you don't know where your bullet's going to fall, right? And obviously it's not simple as that uh when it comes down to what what actually happens. So I think that that is a risk. There's definitely a risk where where somebody is uh got a hunter out here. >> We're taking duck hunting up next. >> We're definitely going to allow shotguns for duck hunting. >> Then the crappie limit. We're talking about that today. >> But, you know, again, it's circumstantial. You could say, well, you know, you see a deer killer away at it on the hill. Should you take a shot at it? >> I don't think so. Unless you know what's on, you know, the next if you're shooting a rifle, uh what's beyond that hill, right? And if you're if you think you're going to hit the neighbor's property, no, you you should not, right? So, that would be my response. Gun use has been a hot topic in Minnesota for a number of reasons. I just did a quick amount of research. Less than 10% of people in the state of Minnesota have hunt that they hunt. You're clearly one of those, right? It's a minority. It's smaller minority. 43% of households in the state of Minnesota own a gun, at least one gun, right? And so like it's a topic that we'll have in Minnesota. I think the legislative priority session they'll they'll be talking about it as well. So thanks for that um enlightenment. >> Yep. >> Okay. Other commissioners, >> Commissioner Anderson, >> I I guess and I don't know if this is a question or a comment, but I I go back to um hunter behavior and I and I think that that's the same with with any kind of firearm. It's it's all about the behavior of the user and um while I do not hunt um I am I am a gun owner and a gun user and so I really understand the importance of um an safety and understanding where that bullet is going and h and how to use that safely. Um I I know when when when my son um wanted to use a shotgun and and wanted to start hunting, we we went through the process and went through gun safety training. Is there um you know what do we have statistics on how many um hunters how many um firearm users or hunters are going through that? because I know um you know that that is for 12 and up and what is the process for kind of renewing that that training? >> Well, I I do know Mr. Chair, Commissioner Anderson, it's a requirement for youth >> goes through firearms safety. Uh >> maybe maybe uh chief deputy knows um >> I'm not sure if you got into the sport >> at 50 years old. Are you I don't think so, but I have to double check that. Pat, do you know that you you want to come up? >> Come on. >> Chief Deputy Bari, >> we have the attorney now. We're getting somebodyut County Sheriff's Office. Uh there is a day a a date and I don't recall it off the top of my head. Uh but uh everyone moving forward has to receive firearm safety training in order to hunt in Minnesota and a lot of other states. If you want to go out of state, you have to demonstrate or show proof of hunter safety certification. So >> and I think isn't that embedded in our driver's licenses or at least the young guys, right? >> Yeah, that was before mine. You have to you can get it on your license now, but before you just had a certificate. So, does that um uh does that include um shooting? Because I know to get a conceal and carry you have to shoot and you have to prove that you know how to use your firearm. Do we have to do that as well with both shotgun and rifle um for firearm? >> So, the permit to carry is a different >> Got it. Yep. Oh, I know. Believe me. But I'm just wondering if there's a the same standard for um it's been years since my son went through this and I don't know if he had to shoot. >> There is no reertification requirement safety. >> Okay. >> But for permit to carry there is every five years. >> Yep. Okay. >> And Pat, isn't the date is in 79? >> I want to say 79 sounds correct. >> December 31st, 1979. >> Oh, okay. Good to know. Uh Pat, do you want you have anything else you want to add or maybe stay nearby in case we have uh >> Sure. Um you know, as far as incidents in Carver County, been here 23 years. I can't think of one hunter accident we've had. Uh from the sheriff's office perspective, uh rifle and shotgun hunting, there's plenty of safe places to do that in Carver County. And so we would support whatever the board decides to do. Uh if there are complaints, the sheriff's office would obviously investigate those along with the DNR. So >> um Commissioner Lynch, >> I have a question for Mr. Hemsy. If we would actually consider an ordinance, who would who would enforce this ordinance? >> I think that's actually >> Yeah. Uh the the the sheriff's office can and then the DNR would also in appropriate situations if if that were if there were an ordinance. >> Okay. But I would I would add it does go back to the complexity issue where you might have ru uh different rules on one side of the county line versus the other side of the county line. And then within these deer hunting zones, you might have different rules. And each of these deer hunting zones that I illustrated on the map earlier have their own set of rules. You might be able to shoot more animals in one than than the other. So that's definitely a consideration. Commissioner Bait. >> Yes, Mr. Chair. My um enforcement question was answered and then I'm looking forward to the public comment. >> Yes. >> Okay. And just for the record, I don't harm animals. I get my food out of the grocery store. They don't harm any animals there. >> Good thing. Okay, let's open it up to the public and go in order. Pete, Commissioner Parish Paris. Pete Paris, resident of Lake Town. I'm not on here on behalf of Lake Town, but as a resident of Lake Town, uh unlike uh Dave there, I've hunted for over 50 years. About 45 of those years was up in the rifle zone up north until the wolves drove me down here to hunt. So, over the last 5 years, I've been hunting down in Carver County, in Lake Town, and in San Francisco Township. Uh, I feel the rifle is much more accurate. Um, doing it, I we've re we've recovered every animal we've shot down here in the last 5 years. Uh, I feel that with a rifle, the animals don't go as far. Um, it's just a better shot, better kill ratio right away. Uh, is what I feel. Uh, kind of answer some of the other questions. When you're sitting in a deer stand uh and you're pointing down, there's no way you're going to shoot five miles. At best, as as uh Hemsy said is if you're up there and you see that deer on top of the hill, it just takes logic that you don't shoot for that deal deer on the silhouette. You know, it's on the hill. Most of the time, almost all hunters now are sitting in a deer stand. Me and uh uh Commissioner Fee were talking about doing drives up north. Uh even the last few years we hunted up there, nobody does drive or very few people ever do drives anymore. And that's another place for people to get hurt. Going in and out of your deer stand, if your gun is loaded, uh you stumble walking, whether you get hit by a rifle or or a shotgun, it's going to be devastating. Those projectiles will hurt you or kill you. So that's probably the biggest problems you have is people getting in and out of the deer stand. But if you're hunting in a deer stand, you're always at that trajectory down either six feet up or whether you're 15 feet up. Uh that trajectory down and you are in Carver County pretty hilly in that most deer hunters aren't hunting out in the middle of a field. They're hunting on the edge of a woods. Uh stuff like that. So >> thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay, Brian. And I'm having trouble reading some of these names, so I'm calling you Brian for now. >> Ah, that's all right. Brian Gri. I live in Dogarin Township. Um, a few things that I know in the previous uh month or so at the Carver County Townships Association meeting, I talked with John Fehee about this a little bit um about not having a a polkadotted map where as we saw before with M McC Mloud County and and the other counties to the west of us that all have taken no action. Um, not that all of a sudden you have over here and then we're over here going, "Well, we're not going to do that." Uh, makes it makes it confusing to to people. Um, I guess the main thing would be on my aspect of it. Um, I've I've deer hunted. I'm obviously not not very good at it, but I enjoy going out there. Um, but it is the safety. It's rule number one when I can remember when I took firearm safety and Norwood Young America. Rule number one, know your target and what is beyond. Um, that's the main thing. whether you have the capability of shooting 400 yards or the capability of shooting 100 yards. Uh it's it's your responsibility with your with your gun to to know what you're doing. And um I just feel that the right people the not the right people but the people that are are wellestablished hunters uh and I know I know a lot of them they know what they're doing and you say well and on the flip side of it well you could have any Joe Schmo go out and buy himself a gun and think they're a deer hunter and shoot bullets in the where that would happen. I think if this would either even if this wouldn't be a topic between rifle and shotgun generally speaking and that I believe is the people that are out in the woods know what they're doing are respectful to the land owners and um want to want to just go out and participate in the hunt and be safe doing it. >> Thank you. Um, Mo, I'm gonna call Mo Zahel. Mohabula. Okay. Ryan Brown. Or do we say Braun? >> Either way. >> I want to say it the way you want to say it. >> Brown. >> Okay. >> Um, I'm Ryan Brown. I live on the western side of Carver County, Camden Township. Um, my opinion, it's it's it's situational as far as it's a lot different on the western edge than it is as you get to the eastern side of the county. Um, as far as the surrounding counties, I don't know if there's a way. Obviously, population and buildings and housings change further you get east. I don't know like homes per square mile or any of that. Um I am a firearms safety instructor. Um to like more to your question, yes, you take it rough. You can obviously take it any age, but it's 12 years old and it's a one-time thing. Um I feel you got to look at like the average guy that's an avid hunter doesn't like you say, doesn't matter what weapon you put in their hand, they're probably not going to take a shot they shouldn't have. It's the It's the other guys that you worry about with the weapon. Just like anything, there's always going to be bad apples. Now, >> with a bullet traveling farther, it's just it could be worse. And I don't see like a weapon, you're going to take good shots. So, as far as wounding, like if you take a shot with a shotgun at a closer range, you're going to have a better shot. It's where you stretch your shots out that are going to be more likely to be wounded in my opinion. So with a rifle, same thing. You take a closer shot, you're going to have a more ethical shot, you stretch your shot out. That's where the wounding comes in. So my question only is like just got to look at the benefits. You know, what are the what are the upsides to having rifles? Um I think that's all I got to say. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Elroy, the man with the good ring tone. Well, I am a deer hunter, but I am a little concerned about this. Uh, I live in Benton Township. There's 24 plus people living in this one section where I live in. That's how densely our population is. It uh so I don't see no reason why we have to go to a deer rifle. I can tell people no, you can't hunt on mine, but what about my neighbor? He can let somebody in and the bullets are going to be flying over to me instead of on his. it. It seems the deer not that I'm a deer protector, but I think the deer season is longer than the duck season. You got the bull hunter, you got the ute season, and you got the black powder. And uh the other thing is not this was ever brought up, but I called the DNR yesterday and I talked to him how many bullets can you have in your gun? Oh, there's no limit. Because I was wondering, maybe I'm putting five in my shotgun. It uh maybe I'm overdoing it. But they said, "No, there isn't." I said, "What about an MR15? Are they a rifle?" Yes. So, we're not just allowing the regular rifle, which most of us shoot. We're allowing MR15s to come in, too. And we're pretty close to Henipin County moving out here. It um that's my main concern. Uh and safety. Yes, we all are safety. But there's going to be when a guy sees that 14point buck out there, he's going to shoot him regardless how far he is and he keeps running, he's going to keep shooting it. Uh sometimes something like that, we lose our our safety concerns. But I think you have to consider that Carver County, especially the eastern part, and I'm not sure where you draw a line. I'm in Benton Township and uh it's pretty it's more populated now than than what it was back in 1942. Thank you. All right, Bruce. Morning. Bruce Mathwig. I live in Wakonia Township on County Road 51 is so Benton Township on my south and Wukonia on my north where I live. uh you know all very good comments made you know for support for leave uh leaving it as is or adopting the orion ordinance that's uh is in your handout which lays it out pretty clear. So, uh, I've deer hunted just shotgun. Well, I I'm sorry. I hunted firearm one season or rifle one season up north. Um, wasn't successful. Uh but it, you know, I grew up in Sibli County hunting there primarily, but uh I have a lot of deer around my place and as other comments, the rolling countryside um more heavily populated, you know, pretty much from it's coming from young America going east and then not as populated to the west, but still you have pockets And uh I guess I'm my feeling is just I'm in favor of just uh put having the ordinance in place to limit it to a shotgun. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> William Divine. William Divine or Bill Divine represent Camden Township. I guess I look at this last year, we had an individual hunting in the woods alongside of our house shooting and he wasn't more than 150 ft from two different houses and it was a young individual and that's what scares me the most. Like he said, you know, you got a big deer going by, you don't care what you're not looking at beyond, you're looking at that deer. And I could see it an older guy, you don't like Red being an older guy, you know, you just he's gonna have more control compared to some 12, 13 year old that's out there. That's what really scares me. You know, I I did approach that young guy and he had no clue there was two houses there, >> you know, one of them being mine and it didn't didn't seem to bother him at all. He said, "Well, the guy told me I could hunt here." Well, guess what? So, that's my opinion. >> Thanks, Bill. >> Thanks, Brad. >> Sean from Glen Cole. Yeah, I grew up at Green Al, too. Um, I live on a refuge. I got deer. I don't can't hunt out there, but I sure enjoy seeing them. Uh, I think the there's a lot of laws. Somebody mentioned that AR-15 built as a pistol hunted in a shotgun zone. I would like to I I built one like that uh shorter range because it's lower ballistic power coming out of a short barrel rifle. I would like to see them open it up to muzzle or suppressors just because uh now you got use hunting. uh you can't be out there without a adult supervision with because they can't have a suppressor. So I would say change it to where they can hunt with a from 12 on up without guardianship because they can't own one or use one until they're 21 unless they're guardian. So I think some of the rules are a little goofy there. Uh, shotguns plenty good. I mean, I switched to a AR just because it was more accurate. I I shot at a deer and I thought, fall down, fall down, and just ran. So, I think shotguns are fine. Newer ones are better. rifles are more accurate, but they are I mean I got a military rifle, not a military style. In World War I, they got ramps on them that go up 1,200 yards. If the government is saying you can shoot at a target 1,200 yards away, that's real. That's what the government's saying. So, it's Hunters got to beware. I mean, it's it's something. So, make a good decision. Shouldn't been yours to make. It should have been the state. >> Yep. This is I'm And I'm making light of the other fishing and hunting ordinances and other, but uh yeah, this is a weird situation. And I guess that's the word uh that the legislature puts you in. Uh I sat on the environment committees in the House of Representatives when I was a legislator down there. The most active crazy committee you could sit on fighting over fishing limits and all the Iron Range boys were on there and none of them like the DNR and everybody's fighting and uh so good fun. I'm glad I did it. Um, but anyway, uh, that is the end of the list. Uh, so I don't know if we want a motion. >> Was there one more? >> Oh, absolutely. >> Might be a few more. >> Hi, I'm Jeannie Offered. I'm with San Francisco Township. Um, and a lot of what I was going to say, I think, um, like Ryan, Bruce, Bill, John, and Elroy already said, in favor of adopting an ordinance, um, keeping shotguns only. Um, and I will just say add to that that I mean, like I said, I'm I'm speaking from San Francisco Township, um, which is kind of I we like to think unique, but it's all bluffs. Um there's six 5 years ago there's 871 people and that's 20 in 24 square miles. But the big concern is um the difference between the the range um with hunting and I can say having lived there for many many years I mean we've got people I hear shots I don't go in the woods at all. I hear shots all around us during hunting. Excuse me. And I know of people, you know, in the township that offer up their place for new hunters um to come and get their first deer. And even though you provided great statistics um as far as you know the pros and cons or whatnot um and it was an eye openener for the rifle rifles, but we're still getting down to the individual people that are doing the shooting and we can't guarantee their expertise. So, um, again, so I would just ask that you would adopt an ordinance to keep the shotgun. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yes, sir. >> I am Bill Moore. I'm from Watertown Township. Uh, I've hunted deer for 30 plus years. Most of it was South Dakota high power rifle. Uh, I don't actually hunt slug here anymore because I just don't like slug hunting um for the accuracy and the lethality. I uh I use handgun and uh bow and arrow now. So, um I've seen many wounded deer running around uh from slugs, high power rifle. I've seen very few um in comparison. I know there's going to be a lot less bullets flying around if you allow uh the rifles to be in this county. The number of shotguns I hear going off around me uh out hunting is is ridiculous. Um I don't know if it's a bad shot or just um inaccurate hunters, but whatever it is, um I know from an elevated stand with a rifle, there's going to be uh a lot less shots, a lot less bullets. So, I'm in favor of rifle statewide. Um, thank you. >> Thank you. Can I get this gentleman next? >> Absolutely. I forgot something. >> Okay. >> You go ahead. >> I don't think I need to go up there. The only thing >> Well, we'd like to hear you on that. >> People watching at home, the thousands of people watching. >> Oh, no pressure. Um, yeah. What I forgot to mention is we I'm one of three supervisors with San Francisco Township and we did bring it up in our meeting last night. Um, two of the three of us felt strongly for an ordinance. So, thank you. That's it. I promise. >> And I didn't I didn't get to say how beautiful uh San Francisco Township is. Beautiful place. >> After that, >> like everything like all of us. Yes, sir. >> Thank you. Uh I'm Philip Souls and I live in San Francisco Township. Um again, as Jean said, we we think we're a unique township mostly because most of our area is along the Bluff along the Minnesota River and we do get a lot of hunters in our township. We also have a lot of uh um federal land, the fishing game or the uh US fish and wildlife and I'm not sure if they will have a separate laws or not. If you if they can allow rifles or shotguns, that's one question. So I think I I don't know how that will be regulated. The other thing I don't know about is this evening we have a township meeting and I don't know if the people at the township meeting will bring this up and whether or not they will want an ordinance in our township to limit the um rifle to uh shotguns instead. I I don't know that, but I think those are issues that I think will be coming up this evening. And uh just kind of want to be prepared for for responding to those. As Jean said, the township last night did vote that they would prefer to have shotguns only in San Francisco Township simply because of the uh population of the number of houses on the bluffs and the distance that a rifle uh bullet could travel from the bottom of the uh Minnesota River Valley to to the bluff area. So that's that's what I have to say. Thank you. Thank you, Philip. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Anybody else? >> I'm Jim D'vorick from uh Camden Township. I live in western Carver County. Um I'm going to look at it as a different angle as car as far as car deer accidents. >> So, if you do statistics, from 2016 to 2020, there have been 18 people killed in motor vehicle deer accidents in the state of Minnesota. My property borders Highway 25. Number of times a year there's deer hit there crossing the road. The DNR has got us in a three zone a three deer zone area where they want to reduce the population and I'm assuming to reduce the car deer accidents. So I am in favor of the rifle zone or keeping it by changing it to rifle because I believe it's more ethical shot and uh you will have less wounded animals. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. My name is Bill D'vor. I live in Canon Township, also. I'm Jim's brother. I've hunted out west with high powered rifle for years. I haven't because of my age. I hunt and I've hunted around home also with a shotgun. Um to hunt in certain states, you have to have a hunter safety certificate. When I took my youngest son to hunter safety, I took that class also to get that certificate to hunt out west in certain states. Um, this this all boils down to me. It seems like ethics and common sense. >> First of all, if you got a 12 or 13 year old kid out there with a a rifle, that is on the parents. That is not right. The parents should be sitting there. I sat there with my sons every time they went deer hunting with shotguns. And that's just the way it's supposed to be. You know, it's a family thing, but like I said, it's common sense and eth ethics because you just don't go out there and lob bullets. Oh, you see something move and start shooting. That's not the way it works. And that's my two cents. I think it should go rifle. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Anybody else? I see the finance director back there. What What does he think? >> He hunts up north, Mr. Chair. >> I never touch. >> You're still a good guy. Okay, back to the board. What are we thinking? >> If we have a public hearing open, if there's no one, maybe ask again. Does anyone want to address the county board? Otherwise, we'd have to close the public hearing. Well, we don't have to close it just yet, but >> that's why I'm just going to bring it back to the board and see where everybody's at. We have the potential of doing nothing and letting state law happen. Commissioner man, what do you think? >> Well, I'm curious. One of the points that was made is that the state kicked it to us as the county board and we can kick it to the land owner, but I was unclear. There's a good point about township. Does it does the township have the ability to make their own ordinance that would supersede or not supersede anything else? I think we've had that in issue when it came to cannabis where we could make a a ruling but the township couldn't choose to carve out. So, I don't know if we have that answer today or one in the future, but if a township wanted to carve out and do their own thing, is that a possibility? We and I and I say from the flavor last two years I've been on the legislative priorities committee with the exception of this year and we have a local um um local control policy that we generally think it's better to have these decisions made local you know more so than the state level but at the county level more so at the county level and the city or township level. So I don't know if we are able to do that or if that's a consideration. The other thing is um kind of maybe unrelated to the subject specific but we've had in my six years of being on the board a number of people that have come in here on on topics that are are passionate for them. Um the level of civility in this room will never get co covered by Fox News or CNN. But um there's disagreement in the room and people brought their positions. I think that's the brand of Carver County where we talk it out and and we bring our positions and a decision will have to be made. So um I tend to lean towards the homeowner has their rights which is preserved if we had an ordinance or if we didn't. Um and I tend to lean on the side of um uh it's your land, you do what you want with it. And I heard some good points about probably if you're safe and you shouldn't be shooting up. Um, and if you're with a parent, I do think that there's elements of of that as well. And I think we do that well in Carver County is um the role of a parent in some of these things. And so I I think I support no restrictions as from what I've heard today. >> Okay. Commissioner Anderson, >> Mr. Chair, before you move off his points, I think >> county met you want to respond to that? >> Sure. Mr. Chairman, there was a question about could townships or cities create additional ordinance. If you look at the plain language of the statute, I haven't researched that issue, but you just look at the plain language. It says a county board in the county may adopt an ordinance. So, it doesn't the legislature didn't create additional authority for the townships by my reading, the plain language of that statute. And I know that you typically when asked to do so you spend a lot of time and research and pre all the things but I don't know if it's a real time thing where you could make a comment on it but would would that mean that a township could say we could provide an ordinance in the ca saya case of San Francisco if they have two or three of their two or three of their members could they say well we're going to restrict it is that within their purvey >> yeah Mr. chairman and commissioners, >> I haven't dove into this, but just the plain language of of the statute indicates that the county has the authority to do that. It doesn't include a township and if the legislature intended that, they would create a provision for that. At least that's >> that's the initial rating of this. But >> so where we stand today, they could not do a carveout. >> I don't believe so. But again, I haven't the caveat is I haven't researched that and they would have to seek their own counsel on that. But the statute talks about the county board and the counties having the authority to do that >> and there's value continuity. I think red made the point of neighboring counties. I think Dave did the research of the ones we are aware of. Seems like there's kind of a unison and there's a value to that as well. So I just curious because that's the ultimate form of local government is if you can make your own decision. So and Tommy made the point that this is kind of the state kick in the can. Generally I'd prefer that but why not make a universal decision and not kick it to 87 counties across the state. So go ahead, >> Mr. Sure if I could add to that point >> in in all the research I've done I haven't heard of any township in the current the old shotgun zone debating the topic but I would agree with Mark we'd have to do more research on that because uh be careful with the laws as we know zoning >> zone uh townships can adopt more restrictive zoning ordinances right >> correct >> so so if you if that was one of the points we'd want to come back here. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay, Commissioner Anderson. >> Uh, thank you, Chair Workman. And, um, I do kind of want to, uh, thank you, Commissioner Udman, for asking the township questions. I do see on slide 15, it does say that land owners can be more restrictive. So, I, you know, I don't know if that gives the township the opportunity for all the land owners to get together and be more restrictive. I don't I don't know how that work. I I guess I Yeah. Thoughts on that? >> Yeah, Mr. Chairman. I think what that means is that >> you own your own land. >> You can say I don't want anybody to use a rifle. But that's not a law, an ordinance that's being created. That's the own land owner. And that takes away the issue that some comments have made about, well, what about the land owner next to me who's shooting a rifle that's going through, but >> Okay. No, I I appreciate that. I I just in general I want to thank everyone for coming and um sharing your thoughts and and opinions on this and um it's it's been enlightening. So I appreciate I appreciate all of you being here for this. That's all I have. >> Commissioner Fehey, >> thank you Mr. Chair. Um I want to also thank everyone for being here. I've had numerous amounts of calls and I put together some notes down. I'm an avid hunter myself. Uh I deer hunt, I bow hunt, I turkey hunt. Um it's knowing what is my target and what is behind the target. That's what my dad taught me. That's what I learned in hunter safety uh back in the 70s. And for me, a rifle or a shotgun, neither is less safe than the other. Um, I've had numerous opportunities with my rifle and scope, and I've had a lot of humane results uh with the minimal tracking of the animal with my rifle and scope. I feel confident in the result and and safety. Um, when I do take a shot, I have shot some minimal slugs through my shotgun. Um, I do think that deer hunting techniques and the habits have changed definitely for the safety or for the safer through all these years. Um, I participated in some deer drives when I was in my 20s and 30s and I know that very few of those drives are happening today in the county that I hunt north of here. And I I know that very few drives are happening in Carver County today from talking to various individuals. So the deer hunting and the elev elevated stand, it's now a very common practice and as stated, you're definitely shooting downward at your target. The stats show that the rifle scope combination is safer and it's a more humane result versus the dynamics of the slug. If we accept the new law changed by the state, we have to remember that hunters can still use their shotguns and their slugs, but we are also open it to the use of the rifles and the scopes. For me, during these last two to three months of discussions with my hunting friends, my neighbors, my farmers, friends, avid hunters, and concerned citizens, I have definitely learned a lot and I've been reading a tremendous amount. in the early months, a lot of the passion regarding shotguns and not being a need to to do the change. But over the last month, since we made the public hearing notification um which were sent out, most of my interactions now have been to support the rifle. I do feel it is the hunter's responsibility on where the bullets slug is headed. I do not feel it is the gun's fault. Safety first. Know your target and your surroundings. A bullet or slug each have their own risk, but either type is is less safe than the other. A lot of safety statistics have shown the case of rifles have not caused more deaths, harm, or damage. There again, the hunters responsible for their actions, the shots they take, and the target and their surroundings. >> Thank you, Commissioner Lynch. >> Thanks for everyone for coming. It's been very civil and uh like uh myself and Commissioner Fehee, we live in the rural area and we represent the rural area. So, I've had many conversations about this, including I went to the Watertown Gun Club uh banquet on Saturday. had many conversations about this and he's commissioner fee he's right. It actually started out where most people uh were I would have to say for slug only but then as more you go along the more you they understand you see the statistics especially in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin how um they're safer. I heard two people mention it today. I heard Brian and uh Commissioner Fee mentioned it today about your target and beyond your target. But not only that, you have to know what's in front of your target. There's three things you have to do. And I've heard the concerns about rifles carrying farther. Um, they can carry farther, but you can have terrible results by shooting at uh your close neighbor versus your far neighbor. So, you have to be concerned about that. I have um in San Francisco Township, I I understand your concerns. You have many many houses. And the one thing that um when we came we looked at Wisconsin, we looked at Pennsylvania is that um when slugs hit the ground or hit a branch, they'll actually tumble and keep carrying whereas a bullet will come apart and they don't they don't carry and they're less lethal. Um I had many conversations on Sunday night. I had a conversation with an individual who was slug only and that was it. I referred them to and I'll anyone who wants to watch this, it's was on YouTube. It was in western Minnesota and it was called his his uh title is MN Hunter and it was rifle ver shotguns and I've referred this to different two different counties. Um I watched the meer county uh cuz they so one of the commissioners called and asked me for information and then I also called uh or excuse me I watched Filmore County too. They both approved it and Filmer County is where I deer hunt just west of Commissioner Hemsy. I had a conversation on Sunday night with an firearms instructor from 1985 and he supports the rifles. And one of the specific reasons is because and I think that um Bill Moore mentioned it. You have a telescopic site. You zoom in on what you're shooting at and you're much more accurate and you're going to have less shots because you're not going to have follow-up shots. Whereas people with shotguns are using a pump shotgun or an automatic shotgun. A lot of them have switched over as I have and Commissioner Hemsy mentioned the boltaction rifled barrel. It's much more accurate out 150 yards. You can shoot and hit it. And uh this Minnesota hunter, he mentioned that you got and that's the argument. I can shoot 150 yards accurately. He said, "Well, I can put one in the ear hole at 150 yards with my 243." Is that He goes, "I don't do that." He goes, "But that's how much accurate a difference would a rifle and a shotgun is." Um um Elroy had the conver the the no limit to the shells and um I didn't actually know that was right. I thought there was a limit because I know that where I hunted in Montana there was a limit. You couldn't go with 30 round clips. So that kind of surprises me. But AR pistols are right are legal now. Um so you can have a straight walled 35 caliber and you can go out there and you're just the one who told me you can have 30 rounds in. I didn't realize that. But that those are legal right now. Um again we Pennsylvania and Wisconsin have a decline in incidents. Uh the one every Commissioner Fehee touched on it. The pusher a drive. Uh we used to participate those a lot when we were younger. They were much more common. Um I've had a slug fly right over top of my head. And I have a friend who actually the gun the slug hit his gun and broke his gun. They used to go out to southwest Minnesota. Um yeah, he doesn't the it's that style of hunting has uh really really declined and I've mentioned it elevated stands you shoot down and uh old habits die hard. Well, I think a lot of people are going to continue to use the slug gun that they've had. And u not only that, but it's up to the landowner. If you're uncomfortable with this, the land owner can say, "Yes, you can hunt, but you have to use what was legal last year. You use slugs or sabose." Um mention commissioners. The the other thing too is u it's been mentioned too, but I had um a good friend. He had brought his granddaughter down to uh Wisconsin. and he leases some land down there and he brought his uh they had a youth hunt and he brought his granddaughter and she shot her she had a rifle and she was he sent me the picture of a beautiful group um with her uh 243. She went down she shot her first deer and you should have seen the smile on her face. Uh I would wouldn't like to see her shoot a 12 gauge slug. The one that I shoot now is very uh it it kicks a lot. And I've also had a couple uh people who are are elderly, even a little bit older than me, if you imagine. They say they really like the less recoil. And I had one of the individuals who I referred to, he goes, you know, after a while, he goes that I had him watch the YouTube and he was forced slug only. Then he went back and he watched it and he said one of his people in his party had a a heart attack and they can't shoot a 12. The the surgeon said you can't shoot a 12 gauge anymore. So then they tra the only thing that individual could shoot was a 410. And you want to talk about less than lethal is a 410. But then he goes, "You're right. Then all of a sudden they could shoot a 243 and then all of a sudden that person could hunt again." So uh with that um thanks everyone for being civil and I'm u very much at open. And if you is it possible to go to page number seven >> on the slides, Mr. >> Yes, if we could. >> Or the slides. >> My packet says number seven. >> Which slide you referring to? >> The one where it shows Carver County in the different zones. >> Yeah. >> Right there. Um, I have an individual who I talked to and he said he owns land just south of Watertown and then he owns land just south of uh, excuse me, just north of Watertown in Wright County. Uh, so then he asked me what how could I do that? And I said, well, Wright County is not having a public hearing. So, it's automatically going to be a rifle. Uh but you could hunt with and if we would have an ordinance, you could have to hunt with slugs in uh Watertown Township, but north in uh Franklin Township, you would vote, you would shoot with uh either or. And he scratched his head and he he thought about how confusing that would be. Not to mention that uh Commissioner Udman had the question about if San Francisco Township could carve out. Right now, you said you had six. I see five for sure. and then all of a sudden you have to count out where the township is and then you'd have to know where the exactly the township line is. That would be very very confusing. So whether it's right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent, this is what the state handed us. So I am in favor of uh passing the ordinance. >> Okay. >> Uh should I clarify that passing the or you mean >> not? Yes. Thank you. >> Okay. Uh similarly um I uh I'm for leaving it alone. Um if uh if uh on a rare occasion I can represent the motorcyclist community in Minnesota which I've represented at St. Paul. I thank deer hunters all the time for uh making it a little safer around dusk uh for a motorcyclists. Uh I know many many people who've been hit by deer or they've hit deer and it's not a pretty picture at all. Um if you're going 60 miles an hour and you hit a June bug, it's like getting shot >> um on a motorcycle, let alone that feeasant that jumps up that I had to avoid with my head that I don't know what that would have done, but a deer is fatal very often. So, um it is a sport. Um I don't know how many people around here are looking to just fill their freezer with venison. Um but certainly on this side of town, it's about thinning the herd. And the arboritum has every year organized uh through DNR uh herd thinning inside their fence. But, uh, if you have the opportunity in a suburban neighborhood to see a 12 or 16 deer pack of deer, uh, going through the neighborhood with children all around, uh, it's awesome looking, but it, when you think about it, it's pretty dangerous uh, if there's uh, small kids nearby. So, uh, my my uh, my vote would be to leave this alone. um maybe ask the legislature to stop doing this to us. But uh so that's where I'm I'm thinking. Uh why don't we get a motion to close the public hearing unless anybody else has any >> second? Yes, sir. >> YouTube. >> Um it's the his title is MN Hunter and it's rifle versus shotguns >> on YouTube. >> Yep. On YouTube. >> Okay. Who made that motion? Utterman. >> Oh, Lisa. >> Anderson and Udman. Oh, Fee. I got it all wrong. >> Motion by Anderson, second by Fehee to close the public hearing. >> Seeing no other discussion, all those in favor say I. I. >> Those opposed. Motion passes. >> Um, this is sort of an odd procedural, but it sounds like we don't have to have a vote to leave it alone. We just have to leave it alone. >> Correct. >> Chair Workman. Um quick question. I mean so obviously yeah we no action is is leaving it. Um can we con continue to I mean for research I mean we can change it at any time right >> uh Mr. Chair not 2026 but >> yeah uh you could change it but uh keep in mind those dates with the uh the DNR regulations etc but >> you could revisit it next year. uh possible right >> I I guess that that's the question since there is no action um we we could take action next year had we if we see so okay thank you >> so if we're not going to take any action I guess we're going to move on to the county administrator report >> uh yep y thank you so again to clarify for the audience, no action means the the law to allow rifle hunting in Carver County takes place for the 26th season. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, no comments other than I was going to pull up the draft agenda. Uh I did want that the library topic of electronic access in Norwood to to come in in front of you in front of a regular session with you so that you could hear not only about that issue but about plans beyond that and right now did we get a hold of mosquito control district. >> Okay. So the mosquito control district's coming in too. They wanted to come here and then go to Scott >> and then uh Jody our library director had a conflict at 10:30. So, just keep just a heads up, we're trying to juggle that. Maybe worst case we move move the uh library issue later. I don't know. But uh and and just a reminder, we're always working on those draft agendas. That's they're subject to change and I try and keep you updated on the items, but that's a pretty significant change. That's all I have, Mr. Chair. >> Okay. Motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Motion by Anderson, second by Lynch to adjurnn. Any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. I. Those opposed. Motion passes.