uh two years ago about we adopted that or the county board adopted that policy. Um since then uh I guess even before that uh for turn lanes we've generally followed midot guidance. Um maybe it's national guidance as well as when left and right turn lanes should be installed. I think in the past right turn lanes if you had a new project kind of by default were put in again kind of following what Mindot stance was. Um so for developments in particular we just want to have some written guidance to hand off to developers engineers to say hey you're going to need need to evaluate your intersection you're approved for an intersection with our policy but this is what you need to do for that intersection that you want to build on our county highway. So, that's the main thing. We're going to use it for our own county highway projects that we lead to so that we're consistently doing it. Uh, and it'll help, I think, refine or maybe save some cost in the long run, too. Maybe where we're installing longer turn lines than we need or maybe don't need them at all. Maybe just need a paid shoulder and that's good enough for these lower access points. So, so, uh, Whitney's going to walk through a powerpoints. It's going to be some riveting stuff. So, I hope at the end you're going to learn all about turn, how do you design turn lane lengths. We're going to talk about turn lane offsets. So, that's something new. So, um I'll turn it over to Whitney and feel free to stop her along the way if you have questions or we can wait till the end too. She has some some actual real life examples that we can show too that I think you'll find interesting. So, that I'll turn over to Whitney. Hi, everyone. Hi, Whitney. Hi. I'm Whitney Schroeder. As Darren mentioned, I'm traffic engineer here at Carver County. Um, so I'm going to walk you through the developing process. We'll talk about the criteria for the turn lane warrants as well as the the turn lane length design. And then we'll also talk about left turn lane offset and get into some examples. And as Darren mentioned, if you have any questions or comments, feel free to jump right in. Um, happy to make this a conversation and not just a presentation. Um, so as Darren mentioned, historically the county's approach to turn lanes has generally been to follow Mindot's access management guidelines as well as their turn lane design typicals. Um, the issue we were running into with this is that it's sort of a one-sizefits-all approach and it really wasn't scaled to meet the needs of our county. A lot of our roadways either have lower speeds or lower volumes that don't necessarily match the types of roads that Mindot's policies were tailored to. Um, another issue we ran into was depending on the traffic operations analysis to solely determine whether turn lane should be required. Um, this definitely came into a play a lot with um, working with developers. As part of their requirements, they have to do a traffic impact analysis or a traffic operations report. And a lot of times their consultants that do these analysis, they will use different assumptions that vary from consultant to consult consultant to consultant. Um, also a lot of times if the level of service of an intersection is level of service D or better, they will then say that turns are not recommended. And the issue with this is it's really not taking into account safety. And so a lot of these developments are being built on rural highways and we're introducing new access points, new conflicts, and you have that speed differential between vehicles that the traffic operations analysis solely just doesn't really capture all of that. And so the goal with this turn lane policy is to capture that proactive safety approach and also provide the framework for ensuring that the turn lanes in the county the turn lanes in the county are implemented in a uniform and consistent manner and also have consistent design standards. So when is this policy applicable? As you can see pretty much always. Um, the only types of projects you might not see on here are seal coat projects and projects of that nature. Um, we are going to be using the 20-year projected traffic volumes for a lot of the volume warrants and thresholds. This is consistent with new construction. Um, developments will be slightly different. You see those will be based on opening year traffic as well as the 20-year fullear buildout. And the reason for that is by providing that opening year and the full year buildout, it gives us the ability to kind of plan and come up with interim solutions and identify any trigger points as to when those turn lanes might be warranted. If they're not warranted the opening year, safety related treatments, those will be based on current traffic volumes. Maybe if I could. So other other projects that wouldn't be included, we're just doing a straight resurfacing project. middle and overlay type project. We wouldn't necessarily apply this policy unless there are some safety issues that we thought we wanted to incorporate into the scope of that project. So, as far as the policy guidance, this kind of summarizes the approach. So, if a turn lane warrant is met and there's not already an existing turn lane, then the recommend recommendation will be that a new turn lane should be added. If the warrant is met and a turn lane already exists, but it doesn't meet our new design standards, then the turn lane should be recommended to be modified to meet those standards if if that's feasible. Um, if turn lanes already exist, but they do not meet warrants, this is where a traffic engineering study should be conducted to determine the impacts of the intersection if the turn lane is removed. Um, as you all know, once a turn lane is installed, it's very hard to remove them. So if it does not meet warrants, this is where the county would have the final say as to whether it should remain or if it should be removed. So there are a lot of factors that go into the turn lane warrants. Um, just to name a few, there's truck percentages, terrain, crash history, um, traffic volumes. And so to try to simplify this process, we felt the easiest way to convey the message was to utilize flowcharts and then charts and tables as much as possible. Um, the volume thresholds are based on professional industry publications. So this includes the ASHTO green book. Um, if you are familiar with that, the highway capacity manual. Um, we also referenced Mandot policy guidelines, North Dakota DOT guidelines, Florida DOT and then Washington County as well. They are in the process of of developing their own turn lane policy. And so we coordinated with them and they had very similar um approach to their policy as ours. So starting with the left turn lane warrant, the criteria is really based on intersection control, speed, uh, lane configuration. So two lane versus four lane and then your volumes of turning vehicles and your volumes of your mainline opposing vehicles. Uh we based our thresholds on hourly volumes. This was something we kind of went back and forth with. Uh we initially had used daily volumes and the reasoning for that was because it was just easier to understand. So if we have a daily volume of 50 vehicles turning vehicles per day, um it was a lot easier to look at the graph and see where it lies. But the problem that we were running into when working with developers is that a lot of their traffic analysis is always based on peak hour analysis. And so having that daily requirement kind of involved a lot more back and forth with the developers and it just wasn't as efficient. So, we changed it to hourly thresholds um because that seemed like it would be more efficient to use the data that they already had an analyzed and provided. So, based on intersection control, we split it up between uncontrolled intersections and then controlled intersections. So, uncontrolled intersection, that would be your two-way stop control. So, your main line is not controlled and we split it up based on speed. So 50 miles per hour and higher would be considered a high-speed roadway and 45 miles per hour would be considered a low and lower would be considered a low speed roadway. And this is consistent with MDOT's facility design guide and how they characterize high speed and low speed roadways. So we looked at the turn lane or turning movement volume and you can see there some of the thresholds and the relationship to the opposing through lane volumes. And just for reference, um, when you see 100 vehicles per lane, that would be equivalent to about 2,000 vehicles per day. That relationship there. So, if it's 50 miles per hour or over for an uncontrolled intersection, you would look at these charts. If your point, based on your data, falls in the blue section, then the turn lane would be warranted. The left turn lane would be warranted. If it falls in the white section, then you would have to do some type of engineering study and look at crash history, um your volume capacity, and look at your existing lane configuration to determine if one should be there even though it's not considered warranted based on these charts. And one other thing I wanted to point out is when you look at the different thresholds, you can kind of see the higher speed roadways, it's easier to meet that threshold with lower volumes. And that is kind of where that speed factor or that safety factor comes into play. So it's taking into account that proactive safety approach looking at controlled intersections. Um that's where we're going to have it's a different approach. So it's going to be based on capacity analysis, crash history, and then your existing lane characteristics such as if there's already a left turn lane on the opposite approach. just just control like a fourway stop. I think the viewers at home would rather hear your voice on that microphone if we can do that. Um maybe you two want to sit at the table, but come on. I can stand up just to just elaborate on the controlled intersection. That means where the county highway has to actually come to a stop or or potentially come to a stop whereas like a four-way stop intersection or a signalized intersection type. So just for clarification for try for right turn lane warrants is very similar criteria. So it's based on intersection control speed lane configuration again and then volume thresholds. And once again, this will look at your turning vehicle volumes. And then we did incorporate an AD ADT threshold into this warrant. So for uncontrolled intersections, very similar process to the left turn lane warrants. You'll utilize these charts. Um you look at your right turning volume and your mainline volume, and then if your point falls in the blue, then it's warranted. So, we try to really simplify the process and make it easy for people to use and understand. For controlled intersections such as stop signs or signals, um, that's where you also have to look at your ADT. We used a threshold of 6,000 vehicles per day. This number is based on all of the roadways in Carver County. About a third of them are representative of this 6,000 ADT or higher. So, one of the reasons we wanted to incorporate this ADT is we didn't necessarily want to make the thresholds too easy to meet because we don't we don't want to just put turn lanes everywhere. We want to be very strategic about it and optimize the funds we have available. So, if the ADT is over 6,000, then you would use this table. This table comes from the highway capacity manual, the most recent edition. If the table or if the criteria is not met or if your ADT is less than 6,000, then that would bring you to an engineering study and your safety history and that type of thing. Um, so one of the things to note is that if you have a low-speed roadway with less than 6,000 ADT, it's very likely that you will not have a right turn lane be warranted. So, getting into some examples, um, this is Quick Trip to Ridge development. on CASSA 10, CASA 11. It's an uncontrolled intersection. They provided us the maximum turning volumes. We also look at the forecasted volumes, break that into that hourly um volume per lane, like in those charts that we just looked at, take into account speed, and following that flowchart, we see that the left turn and right turn lanes are warranted for both directions. Whitney, is that quick trip public or is that private? That is private. Okay. Right. Oh, it will be public. Oh, yes. Yep. Will be public when I mean it kind of is now, but but a limited audience. I just want to be sensitive of Yeah. Commissioner Berman and Fehee. Uh the Quick Trick development, it's going through the approval process with the city of Victoria. Um they're they're I think they're through their preliminary or almost final goods days at this point. So this this will be built this this year yet. This is another example. This development is High Point Visas. This is on County Road 61. Um so again it's an uncontrolled intersection. Currently they provided us the turning volumes and sometimes they provide the the volumes in different ways. Sometimes they give us the maximum trips. Um sometimes they actually break down the the turning volume. So these for this one they did a traffic impact analysis. So we had all of the the turning volume movements um for peak hours. And the warrants are also going to be based on the maximum volume for peak hours. So if you have an AM peak and a PM peak and the PM peak is higher, then you would use that one. So it's kind of a worst case scenario. But we want to make sure that we are taking a conservative approach. And then again, you take into account your speed, your mainline volume, and then that determines if the turn lanes are warranted. And Whitney, on this example, this is coming up to Chaza Hill. Yep. Correct. And currently, there's a bypass lane on the north side, and there is a right-hand turn lane as you come east. So, we would change this intersection. Correct. and it would still stay uncontrolled. Yes. So, this one in particular is a little bit unique. Um, this is where we actually had them look at the interim solutions as well. Um, I think the full buildout they looked at a signal or a roundabout, but that wasn't triggered in the in the near future. So, the interim solution was to keep it uncontrolled and have turn lanes on both sides. Um, so the bypass lane that will be removed or not removed, but it'll be resurfaced into a designated left and right turn lane for both approaches. So, we're going to put a right turn lane on the north side of this intersection. Yep. Once this development is done. So, this development is north of that intersection. When the development is done to the north of the intersection because there's not a house there now, correct? Okay. Yep. So this just for 10 years down the road that we're ready or No, this we're going to make these. Yeah, it's it's being built in the next few years. The development or the intersection? The development and the intersection. Both. Okay. Yeah. Similar to the uh Hello everybody. Uh Drew Flmer. I'm the transportation planning manager. Um so very similar to the Victoria Ridge uh apartment in Quick Trip. This is also going under development review right now in our office. So it's a very similar stage. This is another example. This is Westbrook Church on County Road 11. Um so this is a church. They already actually built their access off of that minor road. Yep. Um, so we wanted to kind of take another look at it and just see how it would compare to the policy that we have in place now. And based on our current policy and their proposed volumes, it would meet left and right turn warrants if we were to apply this policy today. Mhm. But with this scenario, correct me if I'm wrong, but we made Westbrook Church pay for that access off of 11. Thank you for your question, Commissioner Pay. Uh, yeah, this was before Whitney, but when this church was being proposed, we had their traffic numbers and we were telling them based on the numbers, you needed to have a left and right turn lane built on Highway 11 at that time. uh as an alternative, we talked about a driveway access down to Gernzie Avenue, uh which you can kind of make out on there. I'm not sure if they're fully using it yet, but that was an option that they could put their money towards that instead instead of putting improvements on County Road 11. So, this just reaffirms the stance that we had taken with them at the time. And this is the agreement that we had uh with them as well. Is that an old rail line going through there? What is that line? That's a city boundary or potent or potential city boundary there. Okay, Darren, just so you know, they're having a pastor change, so you might have some more education on that. Westbrook. So, um maybe just add a little bit further. Uh we we did get federal funds for Highway 11 to do a project that'll be I guess now built in the summer of 2028. We did, I think, maybe know that at the time as well. Um, so that we did in our agreement with them their their access that tees right off of Highway 11 will become a right-in ride out with that project and they are aware of that that was in their agreement that we had with them as well at the time. So we bought additional land right away. So we've we set it up for that project in 2028 already. Mr. Sure. Uh maybe Darren or Lyn Lyndon as these projects come through can you remind me uh what level does the board what what level does the board see when it comes through the boardroom? I know finances etc. something like this I don't recall this coming through the boardroom this access and it relates to others. I know these are potentially pretty controversial, right? Um you're talking about development review. Development review and then ultimately what is it the board do they approve the flat or whatever it's called the design? Uh thank you uh administrator. Uh this is in the township so it's under Carver County Planning and Zoning Authority. So it did go through Jason Milky's office for approval at that time. So I believe there is a cup for this one I believe. So I think that was the mechanism where the county board got involved. There was also a standalone agreement that we had pertaining just to the access itself laying out the different options that they could choose for improvements to the county highway. So I'll say that's not very typical of us to have a standalone agreement like we did with this one. It just laid out different options and they chose to go with uh uh it also involved land acquisition at the same time. So there's a few different things happening uh when this church proposal came in. So what about like the the Victoria the quick trip? Does that roll through? So for the other Yes, thank you. for the other example like the the if you want to go back to one. So for this quick trip one uh if a development comes in it goes to the city of Victoria for this example um first uh for their concept preliminary plat and plan and final plat and plan they do submit that to our office that goes to Drew um in our office um they evaluate does it meet our access policy so that private access policy in particular I was mentioning at the onset of this uh u work session does it meet that policy and if it does it's kind of rubber stamp at that point. It doesn't need to come to the board at all. So I would say majority of our cases follow that process or we try to make that follow access spacing policy that's in our comprehensive plan as well. Um I guess if there be there is a departure request for at least for private access locations um it basically they can appeal it more or less to other staff in our office that we review it one more time. I think that the ultimate outcome if they still don't like that answer they could ultimately come to the county board for that. I guess if it's a public access we try to follow our access spacing and a comprehensive plan or other studies that we've done with the local cities and it does come out to be some discussion with the local cities as well. Typically we don't have to bring those to the county board and is that laid out in the in the doc the the policy that you're proposing. So I think that's that's critical that the board is aware of what what you're approving or not. If somebody if a developer says well I don't like what you guys are telling me. Can they go to the board? Do we have that in writing? Can you mention the development cost or the approval authority the county has? Yeah. In state statute with the primary design. So they do have to submit the if it touches or impacts the county highway, they do have to submit the preliminary plan and plan to the county engineer I guess for review and and for comments. There is a mechanism in there where we can provide comments back. I think it's 30 days time frame we get to submit comments back and they do need to try to address them I guess. Um so there there's some back and forth there too. So I guess ultimately if they don't like what our office is telling them they could come to the board. I I guess I don't think we've had that happen yet since I've been here. That's in statute about for for this policy. This is just saying this is how you should design your turn lanes. There is I guess a discretionary thing where ultimately Lynon could make the call if there's something that is outside of this pol policy or this doesn't fit, you can make some exceptions to the rule. I guess ultimately I suppose if they don't like what any of us are saying they could come to the county board but I would hope that we could find a solution before it gets to that level. I think you're right Dave. I think with the expansion of that 10 that could carry a lot of traffic and with a bonafide player like Quick Trip you might see that explode and I know that um Victoria looks at the world a little different than the county looks at the world. So it's good to see it. Yeah. Yeah. an an example related to this area and we're going to start plary design on highway 11 and highway 10 through this area through uh this commercial area maybe a rub point if you want to even call it that is Victoria sees as a huge commercial area for themselves and we're telling them a staff level this access by quickrip that should be your main point in and out of this area highway 10 should be view as a secondary one they're they're the opposite thinking so correct that's something that we'll have to work through with the preliminary design work. Um, I guess an example I I guess I use recently is if you're familiar with where Dairy Queen is in Victoria on Highway 5, the city of Victoria has been saying for like probably 10 years saying they wanted a full access point just east of that intersection of five and 11. If you look what they're they're leading the plans and what they're actually building is simply right off. Um, so that's drastically different than what they were saying even a couple years ago at the staff level. So, I'm hoping we can work through that and it doesn't have to get elevated to the county board level. That one's being developer driven and that east, you know, cutout. I think you've seen the drawings. Also, we've got um promising development at 10 and 43 that'll probably come your way too with access and soil and all that stuff. So, I'll say like all of our policies, this is just setting a framework and guidance cookie cutter approach. I'm sure if there's if this policy doesn't fit, I think Whitney probably get Dan some kind of steel mill offender, but we can always come back and tweak this again. Um, we haven't tweaked the private access policy in two years yet, and I don't see a need to at this point, but these are not meant to be set in stone forever either. Well, I'm wondering if you want to be clear in your policy that that uh whether there is an appeal process to the board or not. Sure. You know, and maybe maybe the board's comfortable saying no. I mean, or maybe you want want to see these in the boardroom like a city council. They're they're into the details, right? But that's a much different different set of approvals at the city level. It's a good point that they usually are having developer agreements as well. So, but for each development, they have an agreement with them. So, they're all coming to their planning and zoning commission. They're all coming to their city council. Um, so we're we're more of the mindset that here's our a comprehensive plan is one thing. We have a private access policy. Now we have this one proposed. If it fits within this general framework, we're just going to make it happen and you don't have to bother you guys with I guess bringing every one of these forward because there is quite a few. Um, but I guess if we're off base and in certain levels we want to bring to the county board, we sure can. But I'm not I I think the staff's doing a great job. I rarely hear about these things which is good. I mean working out solutions. I'm wondering if they're with the development pressure if there that's going to change maybe and but I just want to make sure the board's comfortable with staff making these calls because there is quite a bit of discretion and I I would suggest that leave it at the staff level because of the fact they are doing a good job. I don't think there's a real need to say, well, you can go into the boardroom and open up the Pandora's box, right? But I want to make sure the board's comfortable with that because right now, if it was in the township, it would go through the planning commission and it would be vetted there. Yeah. Uh but if it's a city issue like this quick trip because that's now been annexed um part of Lake Township they did that that ex annexation what last year a couple of years ago. So, do you and just to your question, Dave, do you think we're going to have push back? For example, if the city of Victoria has this developer that's coming in and said, "Well, if I have to put a left turn and a right turn on a county highway, that's going to cost me say a million dollars. The development doesn't make sense anymore. It tips over. Are we going to get that type of push back?" And then ultimately does that come then through you guys and then the developer is big enough and says well no I want the county board to address if we need a left turn or a right turn. I'll say for we'll just keep using this example on the screen. Uh we did do a corridor study on Highway 10 and 11 back in 2000. I think we finished or 2020, sorry, we finished up during COVID. They are their access points and everything they're showing here is almost verbatim for that corridor study. Hardly hardly any questions. There's always a little rub, do we really need to do a turn lane or things like that. At least with Quick Trip, it's just like they have whatever it takes to get the doors open has been their mentality it seems like. So must be some money to be made there. So that does come into play. I think one that comes to mind is uh uh um Kirches from them on the east side of Laconia where future 92 is going to go through. They're they were all I guess wanting to have a lot of the details figured out because developers are going to want to know where their access points are be, what they got to actually build. Just some other examples too. Little Avenue uh just south of 10 on the southeast side of Wakonia. uh the owner himself. I think the developers didn't maybe want to pay him as much as he's hoping. I think because the future county road is going to cut through his property and there's going to be some cost there. So, it does come into play. I think the more we can do these quarter studies to lay it out up front has really helped prospective developers know what they're they're getting into. I think this is a very big success story. I think having a quarter study done. Yeah. We'll do an agreement with the city as necessary to set the stage so it doesn't get to that point for the development. Yeah. And I think all of that type of decision should be handled by the staff. Let you guys do the work. You know the ins and outs of it. And Whitney's going to have an example of a rule development too that. So I'll let her maybe show that and we can elaborate more on this if you want. Hey, one more question. the clause in the policy again like we did on the private access policy about the authority if there's an appeal or whatever that comes up. We'll take a look at that. One more question. Are we anywhere close to having conversation on turnback on 10 or is that going to stay our road for a long time? Because if they develop that whole thing and it's all Victoria, is there any reason for us to have that be a county road or 11? Sorry, 11. I'm sorry. 11. I said 10. 11. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. We That's We're going to keep that. Okay. Yeah, for sure. Major North south road for us. This is that example of the rural subdivision that Darren mentioned. Um so typically for 10 residential homes that equates to about 100 trips per day. Um that includes entering and exiting. So entering um it would be about 50 entering trips per day. And then for your peak hour, you assume 10%. So the breakdown is two left turns, two right turns, and that does not meet our warrants. A minimum of five turning vehicles per hour would be the threshold for this speed in this ADT to meet warrants. Now, this is where during the traffic analysis, they would look at traffic patterns. Um, so this is assuming it's 5050 split east and west of people entering the site. But if everybody's coming from one direction and you have all five of these vehicles coming in during the peak hour, then it would meet peak hour uh warrant thresholds. So there's a lot of again there's a lot of factors that go into all of these warrants. Um it's all usually part of the traffic operations um and traffic patterns as well. But just Whitney in this example, the access of this is off County Road 50. This is south of Carver and the that's County Road 11. There's not going to be any access to there because or will there be an access to County Road 11? Because when this came through the planning commission, I don't recall that we approved access to County Road 11. Nope. No access to 11. This access is already existing off of 50. So, this was just a a pre-existing site that we just wanted to apply our current policy to and just see how it would differ than what's out there already. Just add Commissioner Page. So, this is a 10 lot subdivision that happened at in the township. I forget this Dogren Township, I believe. Um, so this already happened. Um, I don't know if they've even built any homes yet on here, but it's 10 lots. This is saying they could build what they built and didn't have to do turn lanes. Say this was at maybe double that 20 20 lots, 20 homes. It may likely would trigger the need for turn lanes. So again, this is would go through the your planning and zoning commission at the county level and then to the county board. This is where you may get some push back if they really want to do double this size, but it's going to trigger half a million dollars or more of turn lane improvements on the county highway. So this would be example where it skates by. I I think property owners are going to need to know our policy to know threshold of how big a development they could do before it's going to trigger improvements. So, first they got to get through can they get an access and where can it be on a county highway. So, they check through that here. And this is saying they don't have to do turn lanes with the size of development they have. Any other questions about the turn lane warrants before we get into the design? Okay. So the next part of the policy is the turn lane length design. There are three main components that go into a turn lane design. Taper length, deceleration length, and storage length. So the taper length and deceleration length, that's where the vehicles have the space to slow down to the speed that they need to speed. And then the storage length is the acquired space for queuing for vehicles waiting to turn. So similar to the warrants, uh these are split out based on control. So for an uncontrolled approach um we have this series of right turn and left turn design criteria. The tapers are um we made three assumptions. One for constrained environments, one for low- speed highways which would be anything 45 miles per hour or lower and then 1 to 15 rates for high-speed highways. So 50 miles per hour and over. So there's three main criteria you see in these recommended turn lane lengths. That's speed ADT. So again, we're using that 6,000 ADT threshold and then your percentage of heavy vehicles. There is some assumption built into these recommended lengths. Um deceleration is the main one. So for left turn lanes, we assume that all the vehicles utilizing the left turn lane are going to be decelerating to zero miles per hour. So they're fully stopping and we want to make sure we give them that full maximum space that they need to slow down and not hit the vehicle that's already waiting to turn. For right turn deceleration, we're assuming 15 miles per hour. So, we're not assuming that they have to completely stop. They will be slowing down slow enough to to maneuver that turn, but we don't need to provide them that full deceleration of 55 or 50 miles per hour, whatever that starting speed is, to the full zero. Um, so that kind of helps us scale our turn lane. So, we don't need to have 600, 500 feet turn lane lengths everywhere in the county. Um for storage, this is where the percentage of trucks come in. So on roadways that have less than 10% trucks in their turning volumes, um the minimum requirement is 50 ft and that's equivalent to about two passenger cars. And then for turl lanes that have 10% trucks or higher, um we would require a minimum of 100 ft. Do we have any current intersections that are not meeting that storage requirement just with the growth that we've gotten bigger intersections now? And since the storage isn't it, say there's four trucks there and they're backing up into the existing roadway. Is that happening in some of our intersection? I'm trying to visually think. County Road 10 East to southbound 11. Which intersection? County Road 10 East to southbound 11. Turning into Fleet Farm to get on. I just turned off County Road 10 to go south towards Fleet Farm. Yeah. Towards Fleet Farm. You want You want to revisit County Road 11 uh project? Yeah. Don't I don't do not according story. I guess nothing nothing's jumping at us about right turn lanes being an issue of queuing back that far. I'm sure during peak times likely is possible. Um we're just going to assume that for the most part this is for uncontrolled. So if you're on highway highway 10 at like a township road, you can just freely keep going. I mean the odds of you having to stop or someone make a right turn of zilch almost. I guess I mean someone could make that maneuver and just come to a stop before they turn. But for the most part, we're assuming it's free flow. Um, if you're at a signalized intersection or stop, full four-way stop, we're going to look at the operations analysis anyway. So, that's a different discussion than these uncontrolled. Yep. So, this is the controlled approach. So, for this one, the deceleration is assumed to be zero for both left and right turns. So, we have to provide that full deceleration length. Um, the storage for controlled intersections is also slightly different. So, we still have that 50 foot minimum for less than 10% trucks, 100 feet minimum for 10% trucks or higher, but then we also require them to look at the 95% queuing distance and then the average Q distance of the adjacent through lane. So, you want to make sure if you have all of your vehicles waiting in the left turn lane, they're not blocking that through lane from operating efficiently. Um, so there's four factors for storage that are required to be looked at for controlled intersections. and then they would use the highest value. I'm assuming Whitney that just all the math works from everything that we're seeing here. It's just based on volumes and traffic and so the math works. Yep. So this is an example of the recommended turn lane lengths for the Mueller pit. Um so we have their their uncontrolled access. Um, we know that their volume of trucks per hour entering the site is more than five. So, that meets that threshold of the turn lane being warranted. And then we take into account the speed and the trucking percentage to determine what the recommended turn length length should be. So, you can see in this table, the ones shown in that orange color, that's the existing turn lanes that are out there already. and the ones shown in green are what we would recommend based on our policy. Um so one thing I want to point out as well is this policy everything outlined in here is sort of the starting point. Um design is kind of an iterative process and so these recommended lengths if you have factors such as um vertical hills or curvature like you can see here to the west it curves some there are going to have to be some modifications during design that have to be made to make this design feasible. So, for an example, they the existing turn lanes eastbound, they have slightly less tapers. Ours, our recommendation is longer based on our policy, but in reality, it would likely have to be reduced a little bit too to fit that taper within that horizontal curve. What is an estimated cost now to fix this uncontrolled intersection to our new policy? because we got to make those turn lanes longer. I don't know that we would require them to fix it right now. It would be moving forward. So, if they were to propose a change to this access, that's when we would have to implement the new policy or if there's an a new access down the line somewhere else. But we wouldn't go back right now and make them change it. But it would be driven by the Mueller pit if they wanted to. Is that the factor or do we drive the factor? Because if we have 15 trucks sitting in that storage, they're going westbound and there's 15 trucks there waiting to take a righthand turn as it backs up further towards fire department in Carver because I've seen a lot of trucks sitting in there in the queue. And so ultimately what happens if there's an accident and then do we say oh here's the new policy Miller pit you got to expand or do we make a decision and put it in a plan that by 2028 we're going to improve this intersection. Uh Commissioner Fay for this segment we do have a future project planned at some point in the future to make this into a four-lane facility or keep continue the fourlane further south. So we wouldn't we wouldn't touch it as an agency until we reconstructed it. That was one of the project categories that this would be triggered for. So unless unless there's a safety issue here, that would be another reason that we'd go get some safety funding, HIPP funding or something like that to actually make an improvement on our end that we felt we needed to do. I doubt we would push Muellers to do anything unless they're changing the volume that they had originally had approved for their site. Um, I'm not I I guess I don't know the history if that was through the county first or I think this is in the county. So, if they change their IUP or if their their usage is goes beyond beyond their approved IEP, that would be a reason for us that'd be an avenue for us for to say, "Hey, now you got to make these improvements." So because that Carver's future plans, like you mentioned, Darren, to a mile to the southwest with that new big development going in there, there's just going to be a lot more traffic going past that pit entrance. Correct. Correct. And in that situation, our traffic need on our highway may need require us to expand the highway and then we we would update everything at that point to our current lease standards, I guess, at that point. This is another example of the Lquist pit. So, same approach. Um, they provided their turning volumes per day. We broke that down into hourly volumes. Um, based on the speed, truck percentages, if we were to apply this policy today, both left turn and right turn lanes would be warranted. And again, this table shows um they currently don't have an existing right turn. So, we would require them um if we were to apply it today that they would have to put one in and it should be 360 ft in length. I'm really surprised that there hasn't been any inter or accidents at this when the trucks are hauling full tilts and they're just I've had a few phone calls and just fortunately there hasn't been any accidents. People are definitely cruising when they get as they go south when they're coming up to that pit. Um so another example of the Hansen pit um they provided their trucking volumes. They said it would never be higher than a maximum of 30 turns per day or per hour, excuse me. Um so analyzing this assuming they're all coming from one direction or the other. Uh we looked at 30 vehicles from the from the north or 30 vehicles from the south and it would meet warrants based on the information they provided. And currently there are no existing turn lanes out there. And Whitney, that max 30 trucks entering per hour one way, that's in their cup. That is. Yep. With the township. Yeah, that's right. Because there was discussion, just to go back, there was discussion that they were going to build a new entrance on the north end of that pit. Has that gone anywhere else? No. because of the neighborhood was complaining so much about the Jake breaking going down that hill slowing down to make the right hand turn into can't say Jake breaking got to say engine breaking Jake Jacobson company doesn't like that right they got rid of all the Jake breaking signs of lawsuit So this is the last example. So this is that High Point Vista's development uh that we discussed earlier. So this intersection once the development is built the intersection would be fully built out. So it would have access on the north and the south. Um based on the warrants, they would have left and right turn lane warrants met. Um so right now as you mentioned it's a T intersection. And there's only one existing rightbound turn lane or eastbound right turn lane. Um so we would require turn lanes on both the eastbound and the westbound approaches and those are the recommended lengths. Why is the speed different there? So there's a horizontal curve um and the design speed for that curve is 45 miles per hour. So in order to fit the curve um constraints and the turn lanes in there and there's a so this is the main intersection into the development but there there is a secondary access to the east and we are having them do right in right out on that one I believe. Did I get that right or not? Yeah right now. Okay. Um, so in order to fit all of the turn lanes within the constraints given, it made sense to design this for 45 miles per hour since that's what the the design curve is as well of the road because currently the poster is 50. Yes. So MDOT um sets all of the posted speed limits and sometimes that's even higher than what the design speed is of the road. Interesting fact. If you do you drive on your way out here, I don't think we even have a sign for it. It's just 5. Yeah, faster than 50. Yeah. Any other questions about the turn lane length design before we talk about left turn offset? It's fun. You get excited by road storage and AAD and I'd like to see the copy of the highway capacity manual seventh edition. I just finished the sixth. You want to look at the mind facility design guide uh next week. 1600 pages. You know, I'm having trouble sleeping. So, could you get that to me? It beats counting sheep. I have I have all the interesting parts highlighted for you. You're geeked out about it. I love it. And that's why you're doing this. Thank you. I'm starting to wonder about Whitney. We need more Whitneys in the world so we don't have to worry about this. So, there's three types of offset. There's no offset, which would be zero offset, negative offset, or positive offset when it comes to left turn lanes. And it's all in relation to how those turn lanes line up to each other. Um, so I'm sure you've all been to intersections where it's either uncontrolled or a flashing yellow arrow where you're waiting to turn left and the vehicles from the other direction are blocking your line of sight. That's what we're trying to improve. And this is actually consistent with Mindot's um starting an initiative to improve left turn offset as well. Um, so this is definitely in line with their efforts to do that. Um, so there's a few factors that have to be taken into account. So there are left turn lane sight distance. Um there's the amount of pedestrian activity in the roadway and right ofway constraints and crash history as well. So all of those factors will come into play when the left turn offset is being evaluated. We put together two recommendation tables. Um so this takes into account your volumes of heavy vehicles that are in your left turning volume and then the number of lanes that have to be crossed. This comes from the federal high or the Ashtto green book. Um, and so what we would require is when there's left turn lanes that are opposing each other, we would require them to analyze the site distance and make sure that it at least meets this distance. And if it doesn't, um, then see if they can improve that positive offset in order to meet these minimum requirements. So this is an example of what a positive offset would lay out layout would look like. Um so ideally we would have them at least meet a minimum of six feet offset and that would be about 3 feet in each direction for both left turn lanes. Um so yes ideally this is what it would look like with positive offset. Any So the consequence of this is the intersections are going to get a little wider. You got to have that area in the middle. This one will get some comments probably. We need more land. That's why they have one of those at Lyman and Attaban. If we can, we should use the positive offset because it it uh the regular offset when you're right across the road from someone is very similar to Minnesota nice where you come up to a four-way stop and everyone's waving everyone else to go and no one goes. So it's about the same thing. So this way you're actually don't see that person in your vision and then you actually turn. Correct. So they can't really much. Yeah. And with this positive offset, does that include to have those flashing yellow area arrows? So, this would be for any uncontrolled intersections and then the flashing yellow arrow intersections as well. And the reason I asked that question, Whitney, because that 212 reform and uh the quick trip is sat in a meeting and even Mindot said that the flashing yellow arrow thing confuses people and they're not really most accidents happen during a flashing yellow arrow. Really? Yeah. Sure. So, there's been a a lot of research done on the the safety benefits of flashing yellow arrows. Um, and bear with me, I've got a bit of a cold hanging around. Um but where this really becomes a problem like in the the 212 example is when you introduce a median because most of the research uh that's been done has been in um sort of mediumless undivided roads. So that that median really introduces sort of a forced uh negative offset. And so we're trying to explore options to correct that. Um so in a in a more constrained environment where you don't have uh six or eight or 10p median it's much less of a problem an example real life examples driving highway 10 from example at some of those township intersections get our cities might have push back there, but we'll see what they have. And then those types of improvements would be obviously planned improvements. If we're going to, for example, improve every intersection on County Road 10, for example, that's a huge project and cost factor. Yeah. And I guess one one other point is that this really comes into play for uh those permissive left turns with the flashing arrow. you have a dedicated left turn single phase is also of less saying is you don't have the flashing yellow arrow and it's just a red or green red or green light that left you wouldn't have to worry about because you're not trying to right so next steps uh we'll incorporate any comments from this work session. Um we plan to then share this policy with cities and townships and then we'll be presenting this uh to the board for adoption in June. So any other questions? When's the township meeting? Is that township association meeting alto together or are you you're doing them separately? Just separately. Oh, you're sending a memo rather than meeting in person. I don't even know when that one is. When's the next one? July. July. Yeah. 16th. my son's birthday. That's what I remember. Does it make sense to push this to is is there any thing urgent with it? No, I was going to say if you feel that's important, we could wait till after that their meeting in July association meeting. You want to wait till that? It it might be nice to give this a little bit more air time. Yeah. And then we could have Whitney and we could introduce her to all the township people so she could teach them about turn lane offsets. There's so much. Yes. I think I think you could start your speech with now lookie here they would love you Whitney maybe the largest county in the state with adequate storage. Yes enough with the storage thing up there. Well these do get expensive. Yes. And so that's what administrator Hemsy would be. I mean that's that's the bark back that would go holy. You know what? We You know, it's not cheap. I remember it used to be $100,000 bill. Oh, you got to build a tour $100,000. That sounded like a lot of money back then. Now, you know, you're half millions now. And and uh you know, how much is a street stop light now? Mueller, they can build their own, can't they? 400 400 grand for stop. Yikes. I still don't know what you did on P Boulevard at West 78th in Chan, but it continues. There's always something going on there, but uh there's always something going on everywhere to be better, I guess. But, uh I I do like the idea of giving this a little bit more time is with the cities. Would would you It sounds like you're going to have some sort of communication go out. Would you follow up with a a meeting or a city council kind of update? likely. Yeah. Get up there. So, I guess for next steps with the cities, we would initiate send us out to the city engineers and probably the city planning staff as well. Oh, yeah. Just saying give you a deadline, send us back your comments. If we need to, we'll go have a sit down meeting with them or a virtual meeting if we need to talk through something in more detail. So, uh, we weren't I guess I don't think we're planning having a group session discussion at this point, but just getting each city's comments at this point, right? Yeah. Obviously, just focusing with the planning group. Yeah. Yeah. We we can be flexible, too. So, it's we'll see what comments we get back, if any, I guess, at this point. Yeah. Be curious to see what kind of feedback you get and um on this. Dave, when's the next administrator's meeting? Uh, coming up here pretty quick. I'll bring it up. and maybe just talk with Jason Milky because he's done so many of these code changes into the townships and sometimes that goes very well. Sometimes the commissioners in those townships get a lot a lot of calls and then we ask Jason Milky to go out after the fact and by then all the confusion and the misinformation. Yeah. Anything we can do to be proactive on communicating around this would be hugely helpful. Yeah, this is there's a bugaboo in here somewhere that's going to pop out like Alien, the movie Alien. I know it. So glad you guys are taking care of it. Yeah. At least we at least we hope you're armed with some information. You you maybe heard the term left turn lane offset now. Yeah. Maybe what that kind of means. But I do I do know people who who will go great lengths to avoid unprotected left light um left turns. So I'm not one of them yet. Yeah. If you have any detailed questions, feel free to reach out to Whitney direct or you can send the Lynon or myself too and we can get it to her. So I recently had a pretty wild uh situation in uh I was not the left turner. I was in the lane right next to the left turner. So, two forward lanes, two left lanes. So, I'm I'm thinking these offsets are a good idea, albeit expensive. The habit of the individual in the right lane of the lefts to first make a move right like they're driving a semi truck. Uh, I see it all the time. And this vehicle was halfway into my lane and I had to take not only evasive action but lock up my brakes. Happened to be driving a very big vehicle. Yeah. And it's it's remarkable how often I see. I'm assuming uh and I don't know that anybody has an answer for why somebody would do that. Uh, but it would seem the offset would fix that problem because I see it all the time. I'm going left, so I'm going to go right first is bizarre. I don't I don't get any else seen that. That's one of the many problems with dual left turn lanes. Often times people get in the habit of from that outside turn lane swinging wide because people swing wide. So you've got kind of a chain reaction of people moving people moving into lanes they shouldn't be in at any given moment. Yes. But as a driver you can do that simply by going straight from your turn lane and watching the person on your left and just take a a wide arc. Maybe we need advanced driver training. Thank you. Good luck. Thank you everyone. Yeah. Thank you all. We are jured.