I'll let my >> We're going to get our recorder guy going. >> We're recording now. >> We good. >> You're good, sir. >> I'm Pete Paris with Laketown Township here to present the our 2011 wastewater system. I have uh two of our colleagues or two of my colleagues here. Uh James, why don't you go first? >> James Schilling Lake concert. >> Uh Katie Gayler with Bolton Inc. Uh engineering consulting. >> Okay, I'll start with that and I'll just kind of go through there's a few slides, not very many, like 15. Uh first few are a little wordy. Uh just bear with me a little bit and anytime during it if you want to stop and ask a question, uh hopefully I can give you the right answer. If not, that's why I brought these two. Um, so, uh, we'll start off the history of the 2011 system. Um, there's a lot of people that have kind of don't know where it came from or how we got to 2011. The phrase 2011 system is a federal government environmental law refers to provisions for funding and developing wastewater treatment improvements under section 2011 of the clean water act. um proposal. It's some it authorizes administration of the EPA to provide grants to municipalities for the construction of publiclyowned treatment work uh works with the goal of improving sanitary conditions of US waters. The Lake Township Sanatory System was installed in the early 1980s with a 20-year life cycle and anticipation the townships uh would be annexed to nearby cities by the end of its lifespan. After installation, the systems were turned over to the township to operate and to manage. Other townships received the 2011 systems through this effort. We have no information on the status of those other systems. Uh there was originally 173 homes. We now have two um sorry that should be 273 homes. Now we have 28 homes on the 2011 system. One system with 58 homes was eliminated as they hooked up to the Metropol Council Pole uh system about 25 years ago. That is off of Highway 5 and Lake Town Road. It's Rolling Meadows. When they wanted to put a lift station in just on the corner there, the board chair then said, "Hey, you can put it here, but can we hook up this neighborhood with 58 homes?" So, they got a full sewer system there with those eight uh with those 58 homes. Um, Lake Township is home to many lakes that are jeopardy should the 2011 system fail. These lakes are used by Carver County citizens for swimming, boating, and fishing. Uh, the health of these systems impact the wersheds and rivers to which um screwed up right away. I move forward. Um, Lake Township and many of these like the health of these systems impact the water and rivers to which they flow. A joint sewer finance agreement was created in 1983 and executed by Carver County in partnership with the cities of Chaza, Chanhassen, Victoria, and the townships of Lake Town, Chaza, Hollywood, and Watertown for construction of these 2011 systems. Um, I don't believe Hollywood or Watertown has a 2011 system anymore. I might be wrong, but from what I've talked with, you know, commissioners, you don't think they have, but at one time they did. Out of those 58 homes off that one system, we also had about another eight homes or so that were individual homes that aren't publicly or wouldn't be public. It was just those we've had a few others that we said, "No, you you should have your own septic systems." So, those have dropped off. That's why you can see that number has changed a little bit. Um, the systems were constructed by the county on behalf of the township and partially funded with uh federal EPA and state uh PCA grants. See where we are here. As noted in the joint powers agreement between the county of Carver and the township of Lake Town dated March 11th, 1986, design life of the system was 20 years. Per the joint powers agreement, the commencement of operation was July 15th, 1985. The systems reached their life expectancy between 2003 and 2005, depending on the system commencement date. Um, so they did each neighborhood at a little bit different, but when they were all done, that's when they said, "Here's the commencement date of uh of 85." So over 40 plus years old and without annexation timelines in sight, the township must address necessary improvements to the system that is two cycles beyond its useful life. Bolton and Mink specialize in delivering public infrastructure solutions. In 2023, Township hired Bolton Mink, an engineering design firm, to complete the wastewater facility plant, to evaluate the sanitary sewer system in the township, determine the scope of work on each of the systems. Uh, it was determined the best solution was to replace the old systems to a new sanitary sewers for each resident to connect through the Metropolitan Council wastewater removal system. These systems would go through existing connections in Chaza, Victoria, and Waconia. Uh right now our Lake Bavaria area which goes through Chaza um that right now goes right into their sewer system. Um the other ones like around Wright's Lake that goes out to Highway Five um and goes into the Met Council line and the other two systems I'll talk about a little bit later. Uh there are a total of 594 homes in Lake Township. 35% are on the 2011 system. There are 208 system users homes around three lakes in Carver County on the 2011 system. Writes Lake, Pearson Lake, and Lake Bavaria. Each home on the 2011 system has its own septic tank. These tanks are inspected and pumped by the township every 3 years. With increasingly increasing frequency, these septic tanks are needed to replace due to deterioration, costing between 6 to 12,000 to the homeowners. The homeowners, if James finds a crack in them, the homeowners have to replace the tanks because they're leaking. Um, as I said, these things are 40 to 42, 43 years old, so they are starting to fall apart a little bit. Um, we've had it some in the last couple years. the county has been working with us and the residents saying, "Hey, if you get the funding, don't spend $6 to $12,000 to replace your tank. We'll kind of work with you for the future." Um, so thank you for, you know, the county for allowing this instead of having to replace it within two years. So, we're close. >> Can I stop you right there a second? >> So, I'm on a 2011 system, but I've got a septic system. >> You have a septic tank. >> I have a tank. So >> all your fluid, >> everything that comes out of your house goes in the septic tank. Every 3 years we pump out, we I mean James pumps out all the solids out of there. Leaving the septic tank as black water that either goes to the Met Council through Chaza or goes right into the Met Council line or it goes into our other systems that I'm going to talk about. So what we're doing is moving the black water away from the septic tank where before >> So there there is no drain field. >> No. Well, there's one of the systems does. James, you want to? >> Yeah. So there's a community mount system upwood that takes 33 ohms. Um and then we also have a sand filter which is basically a mound. Um but it all the effluent discharges underneath and we sample that that there's 15 homes on Lakewood Circle. Um so there's two areas around Pearson Lake that have mounts. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um the sewage that was pumped from the septic tanks is taken to Watertown Treatment Facility. Blackwater disperment will be discussed in the following slides. Most components are accessible have been replaced or repaired uh some multiple times. Most concerning is the status of the components we cannot see. Um these systems are supported these uh these systems are supported by 27 lift stations. So there's 27 lift stations. Some of those like right along Lake Bavaria I don't think are more than probably 70t away from the shore. James somewhere in that neighborhood. So that shows you how close they are to >> the water. The big one we have by Wright's Lake is right by the public access. >> So it gets pumped from one side of the lake underneath the lake to there uh to that lift station and then it gets pumped ways further and we'll talk about that. That's what is our our concern. If these things start to break, what's going to happen there? There's so very much of them are so close to the lakes right now. Um these lift stations are pumped to remove the black water from low elevations to higher ones as it's transported from the septic tanks. Um the PVC pipe used in these systems in the 1980s was schedule 30 which is the white pipe there on the table. Schedule 30 which is now uh advised for air movement only. The current standard is schedule 43 which is the green pipe there and will be used in the new build uh creating a full sanitary sewer system. Um you can see the pipe and everything. Uh schedule 43 is almost three times the thickness. Um and we double the widths. So quite a bit. You can see these are the areas on the slide. Writes lake. Um the stuff that's in the kind of the greenish color that'll be phase one. The stuff that's in the orangest yellow that'll be phase two. Um kind of how it works out. Why? Writes Lake was it on phase one was Baconia. There's going to be a pretty big annexation that's down there. So, they're going to be putting a new lift station in. So, through our engineers said, "Why don't we wait put that into phase two? That way we can capture not having to go an extra maybe 100 yards uh go right into that lift station." And working with Wakonia, they they preferred would go right into the lift station. But you can see the three areas how close they are to the lakes. Um, you know, uh, there are 28 user homes around three of the lakes in Carver County. Writes Lake has 56 homes. There's a pipe under Writes Lake that transports waste water from the south side of the lake, Schmidtville, um, in phase one to the north side of the lake, uh, Writes Lake Road, which is phase two at the public access. From there, it discharges into the Metropolan Council line on Highway 5 approximately uh 1 and 3/4 miles away via force pressure system using the smaller 3-in pipe. So, going that mile and 3/4 is only a 3-in pipe, not a 4 in or whatever. Our problem is, it's supposed to jet itself and selfcle. Um, we've had to put, let's say, not a whole bunch of money, but we had to put a lot of money to jet these systems. when they were installed, they were only supposed to last for 20 years. So, they didn't put a lot of access points there. Um, so along that stretch there, there's places where you could only go out, what is it, 500 ft for jetting, James? 500T. So, if you have an axis, you go 500t this way and 500 feet this way. Well, it might be 2,000 ft before you get to the next one. So for us for the system to be put in correctly should have been thicker pipe and there should have been more access points for jetting because there's places we just can't jet um can't reach. Um Pearson Lake has 48 homes. Um the north and east side of the lake 33 homes is phase one are serves surfaced by a fivem system. The black water is simply absorbed into the ground like a normal septic system. the south side of the lake 15 homes. Phase one is serviced by a threemound sand filter. Uh the water from the sand filter flows in the lowland eventually ends up in Greytock Lake about a mile to two miles away. Um it's not a clear path. It goes from one Slooh or lowland to another lowland to another before it finally makes it to Gaytock Lake. Uh we test the water coming from the sand filter daily. Uh the results are not not ideal. And James corrected me this morning because this it gets has chlorine in it every day. He puts chlorine in it. If it gets too much chlorine in it, then he has to get rid of some of the chlorine further down. James, you maybe want to explain? >> Just every day from May through October is what we're required through the state permit. So it's not every day of the year. It's just that time period from May through October. test with people >> and you you put the chlorine in where? Not the tank because then you would kill the bacteria. Correct. >> Correct. So the the affluent there we have a manhole where there's a chlorine chamber in there. So it takes the treated water and just runs through the chlorine. And then we also have to have a declor chamber um to take the chlorine out of the water because you can't have that amount of chlorine going to the surface. >> So, you treat the water so it kills all of the uh harmful bacteria before it's ex exported and then you have to take the chlorine back out. >> Sounds inexpensive. >> U Lake Lake Bavaria 104 homes phase two. There are three neighborhoods on the system. The black water emitted from each home's septic tank flows to the city of Chaza sewer system via forest main. the city of chassa then connects that connects to the metropolitan line uh the phases on the timeline it was determined this project should be split into two phases remember it was just one phase um the Senate chair of the bonding committee said want you split into two it'll be easier for us to fund it in two phases instead of one big appropriation which makes sense now um Phase one is 178 homes planned to be designed in 2026 with construction in 2027. Uh Wrights Lake, the Southside neighborhood, and Pearson Lake neighborhood. So the three along Pearson Lake and the one along Rights Lake. Phase two is 130 homes planned to be designed in 2027 and construction in 2028. Writes Lake Northside neighborhood and all of uh Lake Bavaria. So, Lake Bavaria neighborhood and Oakwood one and Oakwood 2. Um there these timelines are dependent upon funding approvals from the government entities. We're hoping this would happen two years ago and with this timeline so our timeline pushes back. Um hopefully we can keep moving this thing forward so we can be done with it. I have one last slide and then I can be open for more discussion. Laketown Township residents at large will be responsible for a total of $250,000 per phase for a total of $500,000 across the whole entire project. This includes residents who are not part of the 2011 system. Um each resident on the 2011 system will be responsible for additional 25,000 payable over a 20-year cost. And you can kind of see where we go into who's paying for what. is telling our residents like myself that's not on the 2011 that we have to pay for part of this that we're never going to have but yet we still have to pay for part of it because as you can see we have to fill in all the numbers on our thing there or the feds said we're not going to give you any money and the state said we're not going to give you any money. So, um, so you can see going, we'll just look at phase one, the estimated project cost is just a little bit, um, better than $12 million. The estimated financing, the sewer debt capacity in Minnesota statue is we can't charge our residents more than 19 or $1.9 million. So, that kind of sets the goal. This is what statue in Minnesota says. You can't charge them $3 million because by statute you can't. It's all based off what the average income is in the in the township of Lake Town. Some townships might be less than that, some might be more. All depends how rich or poor your township is. Um the gapping fund then is $10 million. So potential stuff is uh and the Senate did or Senate and the House did say they don't like going over 50% down there. Um so if the project is 12 million, I'm at $6.4 million of that for the state. The Fed said the same thing. We're not going to give you more than $2 million per thing with uh per allocation with the feds. It did pass the House and did pass the Senate. All we're waiting for is the president to sign it. We're looking pretty good. And I did hear today that they think the president maybe signed it on Friday. If that's the case, we have the $2 million on that, which then helps us go further down with hopefully with your support of this one here is real close to 1.5 million from the county. Local that's at $250,000. So, it kind of spreads it out to how we come to those numbers. Everybody's told me along the lines, everybody has to participate because if somebody's not participating, this project does not move forward. Um, so that's where I'm sitting is if I don't have one of these lines filled in, the feds are going to say no and the state's going to say no, and we we we can't move forward. So, with the feds saying yes, the township has said yes, our residents have said yes. So, we're already quite a ways there. So, I guess with that, open to any questions or Pete, can you go back a couple of slides? I just want to uh slide number 12 right there. >> Yep. Uh nope. Sorry, the next 13. The numbers are kind of That's 13. >> No, go back. Yeah, right there. >> That one. Okay. >> Just for example, to understand this clearer because right now the black water >> Mhm. >> already flows into the Chaza sewer. >> Correct. >> So that piping is there >> on Yes. on the where it all collects at whatever spot there that goes into an 8 in like that and goes into um their system. But it's all the other homes that are there that all have the 4-in pipe that has to be replaced with the thicker stuff and to get rid of all the septic tanks because all the septic tanks will all go away. Also, that's a good percentage of the cost is getting rid of the septic tanks. On the first original study we got from Bolton and Mink, they gave us two options. One was just to replace what we have. So replace all the septic tanks, replace um a bunch of these lines that are in there. The cost to do that or go with a full sewer system. To go with the full sewer system was only a few million dollars more for the whole project. So it's like, well, it's a no-brainer. let's have full sewer system um and we're you know done with it instead of keep on replacing stuff you know >> okay so going back to this uh slide then with when was that system put into place with the cooperation at Chaska >> uh like 1985 80 we have an I have an agreement signed between us and Chaska and with the county that was uh we we'll say 1985 That's when I'm not sure if that neighborhood was a little sooner or they were all done by 1985. >> So, >> so, so then the solution for that and just to talk about this slide is 104 homes then is to be able to move the solid waste from all those homes into Chaza. Correct. >> Yes. And all the other things, all of Pearson Lake will all go to Victoria. All the rights lake will all go to Wakonia. >> So just on this slide then what's the cost projected cost for that >> for just them? >> Yeah, for these 104 homes. I'm just trying to get an example of because I don't see any of the cities on the solution chart on the funding chart >> because they said they would not uh fund any of this. They're not their residents. Um we've asked all three cities. I've asked personally and they've all said no, we will not fund this because they're not our residents. Um I thought that'd be a good way to get everybody involved because eventually this will be your residence. We are working with each of the cities through you know bolt and the mink because they're doing a lot of their engineering stuff. Um that's why we came up with um Wright's Lake is hold off on the north side because we're bringing the sewer system in there which makes sense but no to get funding from them they said no we will not we will not help in any way. So >> just for my example, if that if it if it costs 10 million to put that new line in to move the solid waste of these 104 homes to Chaza, just give us a number. Is it 1 million or is it 10 million? >> Oh, I think right off I think to do that neighborhood over there with 102. I think it was like $8 million somewhere in that neighborhood. Um, >> okay. So then say just for conversation and it's this is only a work session. >> Yep. >> Say it's $8 million and then ultimately the city of Chask is going to annex those homes. >> Yes. >> So there is a benefit to the city of Chaska. Is there a benefit to the city of Chaska to process that solid waste? I guess I'm do >> they get reimbursed from the Met Council for the volume that goes into the Met Council line on a daily or do they get charged? >> They get charged right now um our other systems because we have the sand filter and the regular mound system James's time is what we charge our residents and same thing with the other line that goes out the Met Council. They just say you have whatever it is uh 60 homes that are on Writes Lake. Those homes Met Council charges CHASA because we're going through their system. They charge us um what the cost would be to go to the Met Council. So if it's we'll say 100,000 gallons a month. I'm just guessing. James would know. Uh 100,000 gallons a month and the Met Council charges 10 cents. a uh a gallon that's we just get charged and Chaza just charges a little bit of um of a fee to process it all very little fee. So it's what's going through there now we're getting charged the the gray water once you have solids mixed in that cost will go up that we'll get charged though we already have a meter there at Chaska um going in so it's metered every day and it gets every year we certify the meter James calibrate >> calibrate the meter every every year. >> And in this scenario, do you know what CHAS is charging you on a yearly basis to move that great water? >> Do you remember, James, right off hand? >> Don't not sure. They charge per thousand gallons. I don't know the number. >> I I can get I can get that number to you. I just can't remember. But in 20 in 2023, we paid CHA of 57,000 a little over $57,000. Okay. Um and it it's going to go up or down depending on rainfall, you know, there's infiltration. So, >> and that's part of our problem with this system now. All those septic tanks because they're older. Um you might not see a crack, but they're concrete. you know, on high years where we've had a lot of water, um, a lot of rain, um, it kind of seeps in. The last few years where we've been normal or below normal or dry, we don't see that high and high as much. So, when we have those wet years, flow through Chaza was a lot more just like all everybody else. That's why we want to replace that system. It's the stuff that we can't touch is what worries me the most. You can see the pipe there. Um, you're so thin. It should only be used for moving air, not for moving sewage. Um, the ground always constantly shifts. These are the things that keep me up at night. And the concrete's not as strong as it used to be. I think it's Portland content is a lot less than it used to be. And the detergents are more powerful than than they were in previously. So then that breaks down the concrete and those pipes also, >> right? And just even with the sewer gas inside those septic systems, I mean, it was everything was totally closed off, it would be better, but then you have the air and oxygen mixing with everything, it deteriorates the concrete so much more. >> So on the funding page, the last page, Pete, has that been shared with all the residents of Lake Township? And >> when we had the big um when there was all one bill was one thing we did have a meeting with them but since we haven't been able to get the costs um and the answer is yes when it was one system. Now we broke it into two phases. We have not shared the two phases. It doesn't doesn't change much either way. We always told them between 25 to $30,000 is what their share was going to be on that. So you can see we're still at 25,000 roughly what it is. >> And I'm sure the reactions have been various, but in general is are they 50% on board or 75% on board? >> I would say probably closer to 95% on board. Um, we had at that meeting out of the 208, we probably had well over 100 homes that were represented and um, I didn't have anybody speak say this is outrageous. This is wrong. And you know how those people are. You you've had them here in the audience. I didn't have anybody say that. Once we explained to them and said, "Your system's 40 years old." Um, which which tell us a direction you want to go. There's really only one direction you can go is to replace the system. And that because a lot of these homes you can't go with a septic field. One, like the ones on Lake Bavaria and a bunch of them on Pearson Lake, they were cabins at one time and now they are homes. So, one, there probably wouldn't be a place to put a septic system in, and two, there wouldn't be the reserve place to put them. So, you need two designated uh places for systems now. So, having their own system would not some of the some of the neighborhoods, yes, you could probably do that, but then which ones do you pick and choose? Okay, you're going to get sewer and the house three doors down, your lot is too small to be able to have a septic system. So that's where we're kind of we're kind of there. But no, I would have to say coming out of that meeting, we anticipated the worst. We came out of it. We all felt really good that the residents did get it. What choice do you have? It's it's either we move forward or you guys sell your houses and we make this all parkland around the lakes, you know. So we we don't have much of a choice. They don't either. So >> I like the Bolton and Mink actually looked at the uh airport road expansion. I know that they're going to uh look at Have you looked at 43? I guess I don't know if you looked at it. I know that there's a sports facility wants to uh you have looked at that and they want to I have a large sports facility on 43 and 10 and they were going to take a sewer down 43 and that would save you uh quite a bit too I believe. Correct. >> There's some potential savings if you know the timing works out. We have had some discussions through the city of Victoria um that that goes up right that road and so there's a portion of it that there's there's probably some shared cost there if everything sort of comes together but but this entire project sort of was relying on very complex funding structure and timing so trying to work through >> with the city of Victoria when we first started doing this we met with each of the cities Victoria has been so open with this and when they built that one neighborhood right off of Marsh Lake Road. We said this would be the potential for these um homes down on that southern part of Pearson Lake um to go there and they said we'll leave a stub out in that neighborhood on the end of the culde-sac and then once the baseball thing has kind of come through they said no there'll probably be a lift station down here which will save us some money too. So it's just a potential we don't know until you start digging into it. Originally they said when you put it in, put a lift station in. We would like you to put a bigger lift station in and we'll pay for part of it. Victoria's been really easy to work with on this. So >> probably better than us. >> Um Pete, just to >> talk about that sewer debt capacity. >> Yep. >> That 1.95 million and then the 3.25 million. Um with that defined as the Minnesota statute, is that a percentage? Yes. They take per home and >> um you want to maybe >> So they determine what the median household income is and they determine that affordability criteria, which is a percentage of of that median household income. Basically says that this is what what is affordable to the the typical home within the township to pay towards um sewer or water infrastructure. So that number is based on that affordability criteria >> in general that numbers can't change then based on that criteria or is there variations that can come into play? >> So this is assuming funding through the PFA programs low interest rate loans and they're not apt to provide funding beyond that affordability threshold. They want to make sure that the community that they're um providing that funding for can actually pay it back. So that's where that followup question to that if I could. >> Yes. >> But could you issue a different kind of bond and charge that back in effect through the township principal and interest? We probably could, but once again, twothirds of our residents aren't on this system, and it's hard to say, hey, we're going to charge you this much upfront. Now, you're going to have to pay the interest on this or even carry the debt on it. So, it's we have the same dilemma. >> Yeah, we we we've talked about it, you know. Um, keep in mind too is the numbers that you're seeing is they're going to have a $25,000 debt. We still have to put money aside for starting for future maintenance on it. The first few years there's going to be very little maintenance, but past people that sat in my chair did not put any money into anything, roads, sewers, anything. and me and the other two board members say, "No, we have to be able to fund this for the future people." So, we're looking at increasing what they would be paying. So, now they're going to have their debt capacity and then they're going to have the maintenance to be done on it, too. Not so much for today, but for 20 years down the road when things start to um need to be replaced. Okay. Have you run those numbers and or could you to to illustrate if the township were to bond what kind of you know 15 20 years what kind of number would that be based out on a per capita or resident basis? We could but I don't know if there's appetite for us to do it. For me I have a hard time even coming up with a half a million dollars where I get no benefit from this other than stay in a township. Um I can I can do it. We can see what that number is. We can ask our >> I think I think be wise, you know, there's no I'm not sure where the board's at, but right, >> then you have the state legislature. Good luck. Right. >> Right. Well, they've already told me this is it. You can't get any more from us. Feds kind of told us that, too. And vice versa. If you guys chose not to fund this, this kills this project. >> And then what what what avenues do we have? We've talked with our residents. do we go into the the three cities and our residents quite firmly has said no. We asked them every the last six years at our annual meetings we've asked them. They said no. Um just as a little guideline on a $550,000 home I've looked at it and no matter what city you go to, you're going to be paying $1,000 more just to say I'm a resident of Chaza, Victoria or Wakonia. It it doesn't matter. And if your home is even higher, you pay more. So if that happens and and I don't want it to happen, but if it happens, I can almost guarantee it. There'll be somebody from Monia, somebody from Chaza, somebody in Victoria for asking for at least that this much what we're asking for, if not more, because each city has more people working for it. James is half our people that work there. We have one other person that works for the city. um how many people work in Wakonia, Chaza, you know, so it's as a township we're in a very bad situation. We have a system that's 20 years 20 plus years past it life expectancy. Um truthfully, I don't know. It's just like the residents when you ask the commissioner how do they feel? It's the same with us. Which direction do we go? To me, this is our only our only avenue to go. Um, if everybody doesn't participate, we go nowhere. >> Well, Pete, you don't have the state bonding yet. >> No. Hopefully, with the federal money that we're getting this year, I think we we've been in the last two bonding bills, but we all know there was no bonding bills. So, we've made it into two of the bonding bills already the last two years. Uh, one of these years they're going to pass a bonding bill and we're going to be in it. We've been in it the last two. >> How long does the federal money stay there? >> I believe two years. >> Katie and >> I mean there's there's serious talk of there being no bonding bill this year. The inability to pay the right >> the debt on the bonds >> and the money that's there like our residents, I hate to say it, the can just gets kicked down the road again. But my thing is when we originally started doing this, instead of uh we're at $26 million for the total project, it started out to be 23 million. Um that's when that study was done in 2023. So we keep on kicking down this the can down the road. It's just going to get more expensive. Um >> are the are these phases meant to be done at the same time? >> No, no, no. You want to go back to uh let me go back a couple of slides here. um here. So phase one if we get all our we get the states bonding money, we got the feds um would be we get the money in 2026. So when's the bonding money ready? Usually August 1st is it? Um, we would then contract with we already contract with Bolton Ming to have them start doing the final engineering going home to home figuring out where uh what it would be. Construction in 2027. Um, so design would be 2026 into the fall, probably into the winter a little bit, and then construction hopefully go out to bid sometime early uh late winter, early spring for construction 2027, and then phase two would follow a year or two years. We know next year is not a bonding year, but I would still put a bill in to kind of tee it up for maybe 2028 or something like that. So, no, it's two two separate things. Oh, but virtually I mean we need to come up with you would need Carver County to come up with three million bucks >> in two phases. >> And and and um Chair Workman, if I might ask to to our esteemed colleagues in the back of the room. Um is this in our budget? >> No, this is not in our current 2026 budget. >> Yeah, I can address >> Yeah. Could you because that's I can't >> Yes, we're not looking for any money in 2026. it would be in 2027. And >> but but it but I I we need to I I need to have a better understanding of because $3 million is a chunk of change. >> Yes. Uh Mr. Chair and commissioner. So Dave Fisherman and I did have some conversations about this uh previously. Uh and you are correct. We do not have any funds within the 2026 budget uh for this project. Uh we did reach out to our bond council to find out, all right, if we were to issue $3 million of debt, uh how much would that be? Uh and Freshman uh gave me the secret where if you move the decimal point over, it gives you a good rough value. So if you're asking for $3 million, it's about $300,000 uh per year in bond payments. Uh we did refine that a little bit uh through talking with Nick Anne Hut. He said probably about $250 is what we're looking at. So if we were to bond for this project at the county, uh it'd be about $250,000 per year over the next 20 years uh to pay that. Of course, we'd have to build that into our operating budget then. And we all know how difficult the last cycle was uh with the operating budget and this next cycle isn't looking any better uh or likely worse. Uh so that would then put a strain on current and future uh operating budgets if we were to bond for this uh for this project. You I think our other potential source could be a year-end savings account. I think there's about 5.5 right now there. But we have a lot of competing interest for that for that money. You know we have the Chesca library out there that's not currently funded. uh you know, we're still early in the uh cost estimation, but right now we're estimating about $4 million is going to be needed for the county's portion of that project. So like the you know, the uh books, the shelving, computers, uh etc. Uh again, for that Chaza library, we have other you know, building needs, uh software, technology needs that will all be competing for uh those year-end saving funds. Uh so that's kind of the status of right now. It's not in the 26 budget. Uh to get bonding, we're looking at 250 per year approximately and then year-end savings. Uh of course, there's competition for that for those funds. >> Yeah. Okay. So, this is lucky. Okay. Thank you for that update. >> Pete, do you have the picture of um on your bonding tour, you showed the picture of the brown water uh that was almost exploding out of a manhole? No, I do not have that picture. So, >> what I think you're talking about is on Christmas Eve. >> Yes. >> Few years back along Lake Bavaria, we were very fortunate in a lot of ways was the neighbor that had the lift station right at front of his house for the lake. All of a sudden, he saw there was brown snow, which there shouldn't be brown snow. He called James who came there. We just bought a pumper truck earlier that year because James tried to call a couple of the other people that we used in case we needed them. Their trucks were all outside and it was weather like this. So, their trucks were all frozen. Ours was inside. James brought it down there. Um, when I came there Christmas morning, James already had a pile of snow that was this over the one uh lift station that he had to dig out and started pumping it um down. James, I think you took a few hours off in the middle of the night, uh, Christmas Eve night to go back to the shop and sleep and then went back to keep on pumping that out. We got two loads of sewage, which was roughly 8,000 gallons that we pumped out of the system. When me and Mike Clingal Huts showed up there to kind of give James a hand, um James has his waiters on and he's literally crawling down into the tank and um standing there. So now the water's gone down where he can fix the pipe that broke. Um but he's still up to his crotch and black water um sewage. So we lucked out. One is the system uh that the neighbors saw it because none of the other neighbors were home anymore and he was just about ready to leave. So we caught it then when the neighbors saw it. Two, James was a dedicated employee came there and started pumping out the system had in like 28 hours on that. Two is we bought our own pumper truck earlier because we've had so much emergency pumping. Uh, one year we did 40 um $40,000 of emergency pumping because it rained so much. So, we we lucked out very much. That's just one manhole. As I said, we have 27 of them that are lift stations. These are the things that keep me up at night. Um, just kind of follow back a little bit is the federal government and the state paid for this to be put in. The county put it in. After it was in, the township has taken it over. By our lawyers said, we could have said it's up to the residents after 20 years because that's all our contract was. We've kept it going and replacing everything. Uh there is a cost to all that. We don't want to turn it over to the residents. That would be a bigger mistake than me coming and asking you guys for money because I don't think the residents would they would always go the cheapest way out. Um I just don't think that would be a good thing. That's why the the township has kept on um maintaining this. Um now we're asking for help from everybody, the feds, the state, the county. You three kind of put it in. we've been maintaining for the last 42 years. Um, so it's hard for me to come up here and ask anybody for money because I got stuck in a place I've been on the board for seven years. Excuse me. I was put on I got on the board seven years ago. I remember I told James this morning, I remember when you took me for that first tour. This is our system. And you know, showed me where all the components are, where it was draining. And I said, "How old is this?" He says, "Oh, 40ome years old." And I said, "How long is it supposed to last?" 20 years ago. >> You know, for years the board always kicked the can down the road with the reasoning was, "Well, we'll be annexed. We'll let the these cities take over our headaches. It's not it." When I first got on the board, I remember me and James went and talked to City of Chaza and they said, "No matter what happens, you guys are going to pay for this. We are not going to pay for this. These are not our residents and even once they become our residents, they will pay for this. So here we are stuck either it gets paid this way or it gets paid this way. I made the foolish mistake of saying let's take on this. Um but I feel I don't have a choice. Neither does the township. >> So I feel for you sir. You're between a rock and a hard spa rock and a hard place. And I uh applaud you for actually wanting to do preventative measures. Once you put a system in, it doesn't matter if you put a roof in, a window in, a siding on, you have maintenance you need to do. Uh many of the townships and my bone of contentions, they put tar road in, then it's good. No, it's not. You have to keep the water out of it. Um the point is I when you showed the for the bonding tour, I wanted that to be out here. Uh just to show the if you would to pump 20,000 gallons into the lake, then you have an environmental concern and then all of a sudden you're on the news and then it costs millions of dollars to clean it up. This is the way to go to do it to do it the right way. And I'm committed to try somehow try to find this. I'm glad that we can uh uh bond for it. Having said that, there's going to be hell to pay because uh as soon as we would do this, every municipality would say, "Well, you helped Lake Town, you didn't help us." Uh to to your point, you I thought thought you made it great. You're going to be charged extra for it. Um because you're a township resident, you're also going to be charged extra for it because you're a county resident. And it's it's difficult at best. But on the other hand, when it fails, when James is down there in his um his waiter, sorry, I'm thinking red green, Mr. Rothschild. Sorry, but that's what I was thinking. Uh um the failure rate is going to be it's going to be very very expensive and it's we're going to be why wasn't this done and you did everything you possibly could to make sure it was done. Uh we just had a legislative meeting this morning. We don't know if there's going to be a bonding bill. I don't know the the did the governor released his what he wanted to bond but >> we were on it. >> You were on it. >> We were on it. >> Okay. That's so was a lot too. Um, >> that's a great first step though, right? I just want to make sure that you're you are aware of that. So, you're on it. So, that's wonderful. >> Um, >> and we also made >> I'm only one of five here, but I will uh my support to uh uh try to find our our $3 million over the two. >> Okay. I know. I really appreciate this. This is >> But I said it's going to be hell to pay for us. So, I think you know that too. But on the other hand, doing nothing is it's worse >> to me is we can't do nothing. If this was 20 years ago when they should have started this process, um, when things were a lot cheaper and I I believe the cities would have been more involved because it looked like annexation was closer. Now annexation isn't closer and why do they want to put money into it for 20 years before they're going to get any revenue back from it? Um, so no, if I could go back in time and slap a few people on the side of their heads saying put some money aside to this instead of just living for, you know, today. So, >> Commissioner Udman, >> well, I think it probably goes without saying, thanks for tackling this. I know what it's like, you know, when you step into something where you're 20 years deferred and people haven't put the time into it, right? And it is a show, man. Like, it is. And you've been fighting this since you got in seven years ago. It's not fun and it's not easy and it sucks, right? Um, and I'm sorry you were away from your family for Christmas for the reasons you had to be there, James, but there's probably gonna be more of it, right? Honestly, even if you had the magical wand today, funding or otherwise, it's still going to take multiple years to put it in the ground. >> So, um, couple things. One, just to put it in full context, um, when I shared that we have water and sewer challenges across the county, um, some people laughed at me and I said, "It's not just one specific community, it's many." And this is another example. Um, um, Senator Grunhagen was in legislative priorities last year and said, I think it was something like, don't quote me specifically, something like 11 billion dollars of identified needs across the state of Minnesota. Three and a half of those billion dollars is on a list that you're on as well. >> Um, that's identified and has point totals and and is moving their way up. Right. It's now you're on the list. It's just when, right? >> Uh, Cologne is part of that. Uh, I think three of your projects are there and I think there's three non Lake Towns the 2011 system projects. >> Yeah, it's split up into the different systems. >> So, those are six and then there's another four or five others across the county. Right. So, if you collectively put it all together, you arguably you could say between you guys and Cologne, it might be the most pressing need, right? Cologne for growth and and you guys for um for need need and replacement. If you look at the statistics, if you just took the 27 million bucks over the people that would benefit from this directly, it's about $135,000 per household. So, that's that's the reality of of what's going on. Um, I don't uh I don't know that if we looked at this objectively as a county board and we were to say of the hundred top hundred priorities that we have um that would get our attention, I don't know that this would make the top 50. And I'll say that uh on behalf of the collective of of Carver County, we have a first street center that needs to be addressed. We have the 600 building and the dollars that we're putting on. But it's not also it's not lost on me that some people are choosing to not live in Carver County because of the affordability. And ultimately 300,000 here or 600,000 there, a million there leads to an increased tax rate. Um and tough decisions need to be had. And so I look at this and I I think it was very um um it was very um telling when you said that none of the cities that want to want to participate. Um I think we had a side conversation over the course of the couple years. My understanding is is if this were to get fixed and if it were to happen today, it would make you eligible I guess to be considered for um hookup to Met Council and Met Council participation and potentially City of Victoria otherwise. If that's not the path, it also sounds like Laketown residents don't want to be annexed. They want to be separate. And so this might be another the same conversation another 30 years from now once this gets addressed because my understanding was is once you fix it, then it gets absorbed, you know, and Victoria could take over. But if that's not an option, we also think have to think of the now and then the future. And I think you've given some thoughts to how that all stitches together. >> Yeah. So the only question that I had Pete was is if the thing failed today, like if James isn't there and didn't find that crack on on on Christmas and if there was multiple of there and it did to Commissioner Lynch's point permeate those those lakes and the surrounding areas, who's liable if and when that happens from a $100,000 problem to multi-million dollars to, you know, media coverage, etc. Is that is there and maybe it's more of a question for Paul, who's liable when this thing fails to a catastrophic level? I believe it would be the township, but keep in mind our budget's not that big. And if it ends up being millions of dollars, township would have to um say we're done. Uh we do have in our orderly annexation agreement, all we have to give is the city's 30 days notice. And once we give them 30 days notice, now the debt becomes theirs or the problem becomes theirs. Um, and you guys because they're going to say the same thing is we we haven't budgeted in $5 million or whatever that cost is to replace this system. Because that's probably what the EPA would do is come in and say you're going to fix this now, but you have to fix the whole project, everything that's there. That's just what I'm anticipating would happen, seeing what was happening. What scared me the most was somebody down at the capital told me, "Well, if you don't get the money, the thing fails." There's always money to fix things afterwards. And it's like, I don't want to go through that. I want to take care of it now. >> Yeah. Is that conversation been had by who would be the most likely to annex that what if scenario? >> That would be if we lose say Chaza totally 100%. The township more than likely wouldn't be able to survive just because of our tax base. We're losing so much and vice versa. Um, kind of going back with the annexation, we've had conversations with Waconia is, um, we're looking at our residents are going to have a 20-year pay or payoff on this after 20 years, the way Wakonia is growing. And who knows, that could stop with another slowdown in the economy and maybe they're not going to build any more houses. But we think that the portion around Wright's Lake will more likely in 20 years be all-encompassing. And that's probably when Wakonia will probably that portion of Lake Town will be Wakonia. Um, and I'm anticipating probably 20 years. Same thing with Chaza. Same thing with Victoria. There's still going to be a bunch of farmland. Victoria has the biggest swath of Lake Town. Um, probably almost twothirds of what we have as a township is going to go to Victoria. So, Victoria will definitely have a bunch of farmland in 20 years. So, um, but Chaza and Wonia, that's when I'm that's when I think the township will probably dissolve. >> Yeah. >> Within 20 years. >> We talked in a previous meeting about clarity, and this is less for you than than my peers, is I'm interested in in looking at water and sewer capacity and challenges across the whole county holistically. I'm I'm I'd be open to considering what a budget might look like so that we do it in an equitable way so that other people that are in need in the in the future get considered. Um, I'm not I don't think that we need to be the first one in on this or even the last one in. I think if the cities aren't contributing, that becomes telling and then if the scenario you laid out is true. Um, I think that that's probably more to be had. I also know that we have um priorities that are on our table. Um, and this and this isn't necessarily one of those, but I do think there's ways we can support. I think we can support with a letter um that the county board's in support of the path you're going on. I think that we've looked and explored of ways we can leverage our AAA bond rating and leverage perhaps a more favorable um financing. Don't know where that financing comes from, but I applaud your efforts. I just I given all those things I said, if we're not going to look at it holistically to Commissioner Lynch's point of view, too, um we're going to have nine other entities come to us and say, "Well, where's our four million? Where's our five million?" I I guess my argument with that if there's any other township out there that had the federal government put in a sewer system >> and or pay for a sewer system and the county put it in and you've maintained it for 40 years. Commissioners, yeah, you should go with them. But I can I know I know that that is not true. None of these other townships have what what Lake Town has. we we're this close to being a city, you know, >> our population wise, but back in early 70s, they said, "No, you're going to sign this orderly annex." Not, they signed an orderly annexation agreement with three cities. If uh Mr. Workman, you probably know that Victoria was only what, maybe a square mile back in the 70s, Victoria would be like St. Bonnie if they wouldn't have started taking in uh Lake Township. it would have been a small little city wondering how they could survive with just what they have. They that's why they took such a big chunk of land uh that was going to be theirs which is now the townships. So a lot of this orderly is the orderly annexation agreement kind of ties our hands. It'd be different if we would have been able to start as a city back then and start growing appropriately, but when you have three cities that it's going to nobody nobody nobody has the answer um you know >> is Met Council a relief valve form of funding anything like that uh current stage or if there was catastrophic fail >> uh that I don't know um I don't know so you know too the city of Wakonia and the city of Victoria, they all have I'm sure Chaza does too. I just know those two that they do have um what's going to which is now Lake Town which will eventually be theirs. They do have a master plan on how the sewage is going to flow and everything else. So, they do have that and they've all calculated in there as close as you can be because is there going to be this many? Is this going, you know, is there just going to be houses here or would there be some town houses or whatever? But they have a pretty good idea how much sewage capacity they're going to have. And same with the Met Council. They Met Council started doing this I believe seven, eight years ago. That's why they increase those lines along Highway 5 was for this area for sewer capacity for Wakonia Victoria and you know so >> does this system fit in with their master plan Victoria and Wakonia or would this have to be redone once they're annexed? their pl well I I can speak more need more towards Victoria's plan but their plans uh anticipate future annexation or uh bringing this area in as developed and and what Pete was talking about the plans we plan sewer for what we'll call the ultimate service areas so we want to anticipate 20 40 years out um and size the pipes accordingly so their plans anticipate this area coming in being developed >> with this system with this system or with this system not meet their needs and have to be redone. >> Um the two I think the the >> No, the new system that you would just update. I'm just my concern is that all of a sudden you're annexed and then this doesn't meet their needs. >> Good point. >> The >> the system that we're just going to that we're proposed to put in. >> So the the system that we're proposing to put in primarily is at a local or neighborhood level. So when we talk about, you know, serving the needs, it'd be more the collector line. So, back to the Victoria example, you bring up the the sports complex that's been discussed. Those discussions would happen with this project to make sure those pipes are sized appropriately. >> Does that make >> sense? >> Yeah. But for over simplicity, Commissioner Lynch is probably saying is my council has big pipe and you guys do everything from there. >> When you size those small pipes that lead up the big pipe >> will be sized. That's why we chose Bolton Bolton Mink for our engineer because they work with Wakonia. I keep on hitting this. I'm sorry. Uh they work with Wakonia and they work with uh um Victoria and they do work with Chaza. So that's why we wanted our engineering to be able to go that one day. I think it was you Katie that said um with Victoria, oh she's only down um two offices from me. So they were able to talk talk talk that through >> and projections seem to be more political than anything else. There was projections that we're going to have 200,000 population by 2050 in Carver County. You give it a 25% haircut, now it looks like 150. You don't need as much capacity anymore now, do you? And so those are all real those are all real things that aren't yours to consider, but like those are the collectives when I when we talk about capacity. >> Yeah. With Wakonia there. I'm sorry, Katie. With Wakonia, um that's why they delayed two of those projects. um the Kers's property and um the Faulk property there that they're building the houses on because Bonia did not know what their capacity was yet and they had to design it. And then once they did that first part done, then they um were able to do the folk property right off County Road 10 and now the one off of Airport Road um they figure that and you guys coming in with the new county road and all that. So they're they got their poop in a group to say and to be able to move forward to have what is theirs because they don't go that much past uh Scandia Road which will be Wakonia if you know how uh long airport road is. So um no those Victoria and Wakonia pretty much know what their capacity is in that area >> depending on how it's going to be. Katie, you had something else. It might it might be helpful with your illustration too and I appreciate you not sharing you know sharing it broadly with your with your team or whatnot. Instead of plugging in Carver County, it might make sense on that line to put in that council and then maybe open that conversation up to see if they have a funding source. They're probably more and I say it Pete in the sense that what you're trying to do and fund proactively is great. I'm thinking down the path of if the funding doesn't come together with all the things that we're talking about legislature expiration of federal dollars nonparticipation from the city which is their choice. If we look at it from a realistic standpoint, we're probably looking for the plan of catastrophic. And I think the Met Council would have a lot more interest on the X's and O's at failure than upstream, >> right? >> Yeah. >> I believe we asked Met Council before they don't have money to do they can help with a little bit of the design part of it, but they don't have $2 million design. And I thought somebody once told me and Katie could probably answer better, but um Met Council little bit on design, which is a few hundred,000 is about all we're going to get from the Met Council. >> Everything helps. >> Well, Pete, thank you. Um >> before you close. >> Yes. >> So, on uh question on taxpayer impact, so the township line here is local, right? The 500,000. >> Yes. >> Have you have you levied for that or will you have to in the future? probably not what I'm looking or what we're looking at is we do have annexations. Um what we get from that annexation money will be put towards towards that. So we're hoping we're not to have very little impact on our residents on uh raising our levy amount. >> Then I noticed in the in the line above here, every resident that's on the system is 25,000 payable over 20 years. Are you are you setting up a loan? >> Yes. program or they could potentially pay it off. >> Yep. >> At a lower rate than that. So, if you took >> took that 25,000 and you have how many 20 how many people do you have >> on that system? 28. >> Well, well, 25,000 over 20 years is 1,250 bucks a year roughly, right? So just just trying to get my head around what what what actually are folks looking at for bills here because we'll have to do the same thing and and I would recommend Mr. Chair, we we consider this like other requests uh put it in the budgetary process and weigh it against other issues. uh the 27 process and the way our process works uh folks request I'd have Nick do this one you know all divisions put in requests I we package that up have all sorts of discussions I make a recommendation to the board that the board ultimately can take a change >> and it's ultimately up to the board but that would be my my suggestion Mr. chair, unless you want to make other sorts of commitments today. >> No. Well said. We're starting the the 27 funding process a little early. Commissioner Fay. >> Yeah. Could I also request that we go back and look at the legal documents when supposedly the county installed this? The the key word for me is the maintenance. >> Okay. >> And was that in the legal documents way back when? Is it in the orderly annexation agreements? I have them with me. I so you know is 40 years ago when this was started they did not keep a lot of documents. So it's been me trying to piece together what James had, what Mike Clingal Huts had, what everybody had. But I do have some of those with me. So if you want to take it or make some copies of them, but hopefully you guys' records in the county are a lot better than what the township and I can't speak for the other townships, but I would just assume something they did 40 years ago. Do they still have those documents? But I do have some. Do I have all of them? I don't know. But I do have the document that says it's a 20-year life cycle and the township will take it over. And then we had our lawyer look at this a couple years ago and he says after 20 years, you guys can just give it up if you want. It was a different board that's now, but we've talked about it. We don't want to give it up to the residents. We think that'd be a bad bad decision. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to see some of those legal terms, Pete, and that I can that language and then the the common phrase is kicking the can down the road. And here we are. >> Yep. Down the road. >> Yep. And I've had that with our roads and with this. And we've kind of grabbed onto our roads and been able to do take care of five roads in the last uh two years. So yeah, because you had mentioned that the Lake Town residents taken part of the burden, but if you look at the county contribution for 3 million. Yep. >> And all of the county residents are taking part of the burden because it was kicked down the road for 25 years. And then that goes back to my maintenance agreement argument. Was Lake Township responsible? And we don't know for sure. And that's why I asked that question >> to set up a fund that would maintain the 2011 system for 20, 30, 40 years, etc. And I I just would like to know that information. >> I'll let you guys take a look. It doesn't say. It just says after the thing was installed that it's going to be turned over to the township. Um, and it just says you'll maintain it for 20 years. Um, it doesn't say anything unless you can find something on there, which I'm gladly that you have copies of everything I have, which isn't that much. Um, just I guess to finish up so you can go because you said you had another meeting, uh, Mr. Chair, was everything on here. This isn't one of these things where Pete all of a sudden says, "Oh, we should do this. We should do this." It's because originally we had somebody tell us, "Have the state bond for 100%." working down at the Capitol for 10 years, I knew that was never going to fly. So, I said, "Let's do this. Let's do that." Um, I didn't have the county in my first thing. I didn't have the feds in it. But then when the state said, "You have to have the feds participate. You have to have the county participate. The residents have to participate, and even the township has to participate. So, as I said earlier, if one of these lines aren't filled out, I feel we're screwed because I don't know which direction to go. There isn't any pool of magical money sitting out there because we've pounded on every door and through both in the mink have told us not here, not here, not here. So this is where we sit at the >> time. Clarify that though there there's no exact science behind the the cost sharing formula >> but for the some of the debt service on the >> correct the debt service >> category >> debt service yes that's kind of the fine and the on and the state said we won't give you any money over 50%. and I'm a little bit over 50%. And uh Senator Papus said you're at you're at the 50% mark. And then the federal government, if you look at they did come out with I believe Cologne got in on the money from the feds this year and so did uh Norwood. Might be wrong in Norwood, but same thing. We got $2 million. There's nobody on that whole list in Minnesota unless you're St. Louis County. Everybody's under $2 million. So the feds did kind of tell us you can ask for five, but you're probably only going to get two for for each phase. So, but there is no requirements legal or otherwise for the local exact local match or the county match. So those theoretically at least could be adjusted and I understand the impacts in residents, all these other variables, but just want to make sure there's >> you're saying we're the we're the bottom of the basket. Well, or for example, uh if the county gave a million where somebody else would have to come up with, >> right, the remainder, right? And you know, again, trying to balance this the fairness issue is difficult here because yes, you have residents that aren't on it, but we have all of our residents >> that aren't on it. >> Vast majority aren't on it. Right. >> So, we can continue those discussions and and yes, I think it's a good idea. I've seen those documents, but I think we should run those by uh the county attorney's office. Maybe we already have, but they're pretty >> pretty basic. >> I don't I haven't heard any conversation about the county being held directly liable for this or >> I'm not I'm not saying the county is directly liable. Right. Right. I was clarifying that, but I yeah, definitely understand the the cause and effect of this failing. If certain certain jurisdictions don't uh step up and and fix the failure, yeah, that's going to um potentially fall our way, right? Which is >> it's not good for the township, for the county, and for the three cities either. It I look at it, it will be a literally show. Excuse my language, but kind of fits right in though, doesn't it? >> It sure does. That was a great pun. >> It doesn't happen on Christmas. Sounds like a terrible Christmas. >> It was for James and his family. It was It was a bad Christmas. So, I want to thank >> again, you know, >> Pete, thank you. Great job. Um, I'm not going to go around and go, "Hey, is everybody up or down? We got a little here." >> Yeah. >> Um, >> and any questions any you have? I think I've talked with all you almost to nauseium on this. Um, and my wife too. So, she probably knows more about the system than probably most people out there. So, um, so but I want to thank you for letting us take your time today. >> Good job. Thank you. Thanks, Pete. Thanks. All right, we are adjourned.