Senator, I'm happy to have you here. >> Good seeing you, Veronica. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. So, we are here today to talk about energy, our clean energy reputation here in Minnesota, and energy affordability. So, let's start with something really positive. Minnesota is known as a clean energy leader. How do we earn this reputation? >> I think through the work of a lot of good people. It has aspects that Minnesotans always like. We protect the environment. So, as climate change and the impacts and costs have become better understood by Minnesotans, more Minnesotans say, "We have a responsibility to act, and we want to act." There's also an economic aspect. There are clean energy jobs in Minnesota numbering over 60,000 now. So, when we build wind and solar, that takes electricians, uh building trades. We want those jobs. And of course, there's cost savings with many of these energy technologies. So, for your average rate payer who maybe doesn't know the name of their state senator, but knows their electric bill, it's good news. And for all those reasons, we've led and continue to lead. >> That's something that I wanted to talk about. We know solar is up here, use of coal is down. So, is that progress saving us money in the end? >> It is. One of the things that I've enjoyed in the four years I've been the chairman is the decrease in the price of our renewables. Wind in particular now is the lowest cost energy generation. You build the wind turbine, and then for about 25 years, it generates electricity. It's a little bit cheaper than having to go to dig something out of the ground, put it on a train, bring it to a facility, toss it in a burner, have the whole process, and then repeat that all day long every day for 25 years. And so, cost is something that more Minnesotans are waking up to. I also love to point out that's a little bit of a sign of innovation, which Americans historically been really good at. In fact, um this is a little bit in the weeds, but we swap out, meaning replace, a lot of these wind turbine blades before their useful life is over because the new blades are so efficient that we can't afford not to. >> I know we've also been innovative when it comes to sustainable airplane or airline fuel. So, a lot of great things happening in Minnesota in that green space. But, I have also read that some of that green energy growth in this state has slowed. Is it because we were so ahead of the curve that, you know, we have nowhere else to go at the moment? Or or tell me about that. >> Well, first of all, you did your homework. Nice uh shout-out there for sustainable aviation fuel. Last night, we announced our budget deal, if you caught that, for this year's supplemental budget, and the sustainable aviation fuel tax treatment that we wanted is in there. That's a big win for cleaner air, for our airlines, and for our farmers. So, thanks for flagging that. The percentage of use of renewables is growing. I think what you may be referring to is the fact that the most recent numbers tell us that we're burning a little more coal. That's largely due to the increased demand. Around the state, we have more people using more electric devices, and electricity demand is up. We have not built the clean energy generation as fast as we would like, but with the 2040 100% clean energy bill, utilities will be required to get there, and I think we'll make it. >> You talked about an increased demand, Senator. And that takes me to something that came up when the bill was being debated on the floor, something that would impact the energy, environment, and affordability, which is data centers. And there's been a lot of concern and anxiety around them. But, I was intrigued that on the floor, you brought up a lot of positive points that I hadn't heard before. So, tell me more about that. >> Sure. First of all, we want people to understand better all our energy uses and all the concerns people have. It's the same in environment. For data centers, people ask, "Well, if they're so big, is it a threat to the water?" We have some water questions, and we have permitting in this state. There are questions about how many and how they create them and for how long. The answer is for the new hyperscale data centers and we're talking a million square feet, maybe a cost of billions of dollars. The building trades jobs are as significant as an entire state bonding bill for a whole 2-year period. Um career changing for some electricians, for example. And then one of the things that's not as well understood and I hope to bring to the floor debate and just remind people is the economic benefit to the community in terms of property taxes. We have an example of a proposed data center in southern Minnesota where I live that would take a county that has about a $48 million county budget. So, paying for county roads and county employees. And the data center by itself would produce an additional 20 million a year. The 2025 law, thanks again for your second example of great homework, um made some changes that also required data center companies to make some payments to our low-income energy assistance. You may have seen in the headlines the data center in Pine Island that Google recently announced. First of all, it's air-cooled, so it does not have the water concerns, but they'll pay $5 million a year and they're building, wait for it, 1,600 MW of clean energy, wind, solar, and battery at their expense. Minnesota Excel rate payers getting 1,600 MW of clean energy for free. And for context, the entire solar fleet for us in Minnesota is about 3,000 MW. So, what we want people to understand is the pros and cons and the non-disclosure agreement question is real and I have said in the media I love the 2025 law. As the author, I'm very proud of it. It's being copied in some other states and the way we we the data centers to report their water usage is nation leading and even my colleagues in the Senate who have some questions about data centers acknowledge it's nation leading water language. So, the unknowns include the use of artificial intelligence. People have concerns. I would say good, let's ask some tough questions, but it's booming. In fact, to make your um show here a little more timely, today the United States is meeting with China and one of the principal issues is semiconductor chips because AI is such a global question and they mean it in an economic terms. So, if you're going to come to the city of North Mankato and increase the property tax $20 million a year, that has some pretty significant implications for local taxpayers at a time when property taxes are going up and data centers are discussion we should have. I'd encourage people to make sure they get all the pros and cons and then talk to your city councilman or talk to a local official or talk to the Department of Natural Resources if water's your concern. >> Yeah, you need to have all of the information right there on the table to make a good informed decision. It's all you're trying to do. >> Should watch a show like this. They just had a great piece on data centers this morning. >> [laughter] >> Um another controversial topic that comes up when we talk about energy um is nuclear power. We know it's a low carbon energy source that could save us money, but the moratorium on building new nuclear power plants was not repealed this year. What are your thoughts there? >> Well, as the energy chair, it's been a topic that comes up every year. You may know there's a little nuance between the House and the Senate. The Senate has passed a nuclear study three years in a row now. I do think this year it will get across the finish line. I was working on it before I came down from my office to sit with you. And it essentially says let's take a closer look at today's nuclear. The moratorium comes from the 1990s and it includes an agreement with the Prairie Island Indian Community who unexpectedly and completely against their will, um has a large amount of nuclear waste stored 700 yd from their community, the closest any American community in the country has to live to nuclear waste. And we created a couple things, a renewable development account, money that Xcel rate payers will help to pay for clean energy projects, and a moratorium that said until we come up with a solution that's okay with Prairie Island and with the people for disposing of nuclear waste, we won't build anymore. What's happened in the meantime is that other states and countries have moved more into nuclear because it is a carbon-free source. A couple things that your viewers um should hear. First of all, in my opinion as the chairman, it's not cost-competitive right now in the legacy nuclear picture, the big cooling towers from Three Mile Island in the '70s. And that's why we're not seeing a lot of that nuclear built around the country, even in states where there's no moratorium. But we got to look at it, and in the same way you and I talked about the innovation in the wind turbine blades, remember, long time ago? We don't know that there won't be more innovation in nuclear. There are two smaller ways we deliver nuclear power, advanced nuclear and um so-called small modular nuclear. Those are being deployed around the country for limited uses. I don't know that they'll be scaled up to be powering a city of 100,000, but I don't know that they won't. So, um where we are in Minnesota is the moratorium is still in effect. The Senate um has funded a nuclear study. I think that'll become law, and for the first time in Minnesota history since the '90s, it has the support of the Prairie Island Indian Community. They had been neutral on the study until now. >> Seeing that we haven't repealed the moratorium yet, and supporters say we can't reach our state goals, our clean environment goals, like being zero net emissions by 2050 without investing nuclear power. So, if something that doesn't happen, what are our other options to reach our goals? >> We're not going to reach that particular goal without nuclear, and it's not calculated by the state's utility classes, investor-owned, rural co-op like where I live, and then municipal utilities without it. There are two nuclear facilities, both owned and operated by Xcel Energy, our largest utility, and there's no real trajectory to get it to 100% by 2040 without including that nuclear. I fully respect those people who have concerns, but you're making the point I would want to put before the people of Minnesota. If that's not a part of our mix, are we saying that suddenly demand is going to go down? Not likely, including data centers. Or are we saying we don't want to reach our goal? Or is there some new form of energy generation? Or are we going to scale up wind and solar to such an extent we we meet our goal? Um we're building more wind and solar. I hate to put in a shameless plug, but we passed 2 years ago the clean energy permitting reform in Minnesota, speeding up the deployment of wind and solar and battery significantly. So, it's much easier to get a permit for those technologies, but in my opinion, that's not going to be enough to get us there, and we'll have to ask tougher questions about nuclear and about demand. The data centers are booming right now, taking up a ton of energy. Um I got to put in a plug also for the ratepayer protection, the 2025 law which relates to data centers, has this feature. Xcel has to file with the Public Utilities Commission their plans for this Pine Island data center. They filed now and said, "Here's what it's going to mean for ratepayers. It'll be a savings of 1.1 billion over the next 10 years after it opens because the economies of scale and the clean energy that they're building. So, ratepayers can save money in different ways, and meeting our demand doesn't have to look one particular way. >> Let's continue talking about money. You said we cannot afford to ignore the fight on climate change. I'm signaling in on the word afford. You know, what is it currently costing us or how are those costs manifesting in our budgets? >> The big one is homeowners insurance. If you've seen a report of a Southeastern United States hurricane, the damage that's done now with storms that we feel would not be happening but for climate change are so costly that it affects your and my homeowners insurance rates around the country. We don't have a lot of hurricanes up here, but our homeowners insurance sometimes reflect it. We had a storm last year that cost $52 billion. One storm. And climate change is responsible for a lot of that. And while we can debate what direction we're heading, it's pretty clear the planet's warming up and the cost to us are not just dollars but lives. I mean, we have people killed in these storms. And so, our point is there's a cost to climate change coming out of your pocket. And you probably know Minnesotans have been saying to elected officials, we are very worried about the daily costs. Well, that's one of them. And if you want to insure your home, there are many places where in Minnesota the homeowners insurance has gone up 300% in the last 10 or 20 years. We have more expensive homes. It costs more for the labor to get them fixed. But the real story is the amount of damage that's done. And this also has the wildfire costs if you're in Canada or on the West Coast, those storms are wiping out entire communities at a cost that's almost beyond calculation. >> Well, let's talk about what you've done to help homeowners and other Minnesotans with their energy costs. The energy omnibus bill passed off the floor in the Senate. I know there were provisions in there that Yeah, you were there. Um that will help people with those bills. So, talk to some of the things that were there. >> Well, first of all, the framework in Minnesota is the 100% clean energy. So, that's doing our share for the planet. We we don't just want Minnesotans to pay less. Uh we want climate change to slow down in the rest of the world. We're all in this together. Second of all, we promote renewable energy where it's cheaper. One of the features of the 2020 uh three 100% bill is that we don't pick a technology. We don't have to get to 100% using X% of solar. And so, the omnibus bill this year continues on that path, including the nuclear study. Maybe nuclear will save some money. We want people to save money. There's conservation. Uh we try to promote energy conservation and demand response, which is a little geeky, but essentially says, "Let's generate when it's the lowest cost and let's use energy when it's the lowest cost." And we have some other provisions, including we want to have, for example, plug-in solar, which is we're going to allow people to put solar on their balcony. It's a smaller deployment, but if it saves people money and moves us in the right direction, we'll take it. Customers, consumers, are not going to go that way if it doesn't save them money. So, those are without subsidy, and you'll see if adoption um continues to go up. One of the things we didn't talk about is that solar panels are down 90% in cost over the last 20 years. Wouldn't you know it? That lowers the cost of people's energy. >> This You just said that we're moving in the right direction. Um it's not the first time you've said that. So, what are your favorite parts of the bill, the provisions that combat climate change? >> Um well, you mean my favorite? >> Yeah. >> I like the renewable development account individual projects. An example would be, we're here in the great city of St. Paul. There's a Como Zoo project, which will help provide a little bit more than $2 million to provide some clean energy for them. Kids love the zoo. We can lower their costs substantially. And so, I not only like that it will save energy and save money for the Como Zoo and the city of St. Paul, but I like the example. I love the idea that kids will go by, and if they choose to at the zoo, say, "Hey, you like the big jungle cats?" "Yeah, yeah, we like them." By the way, we're making this a more cost-effective, keep the zoo open longer, have more animals by using clean energy. And then hopefully a kid or two will say, "What's clean energy?" And maybe we'll develop the next generation of Minnesotans who think of a new thing that we haven't thought of. We haven't mentioned some of the other innovation that's possible, but I like the longer-term vision. And so maybe one of those kids at the zoo comes up with new battery storage. A major breakthrough is near, but not here, on battery storage, where if we can store energy for 3 days, as opposed to now where we can store for 3 or 4 hours, you're going to unlock a mountain of wind and solar capturing and saving. And maybe one of those kids will do it. So that was my long-winded way of saying the renewable development account, which by the way comes from your question about nuclear waste storage. We do not have a deal, and I've only got 72 hours left to make one. So when this interview is over, I'm going to get right back on the phone and try to put an RDA deal together. House and Senate have to agree. The Senate has a position on about 10 of those projects around the state promote clean energy. >> Well, Senator, it sounds like you have a full day ahead, so I won't keep you any longer. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me about this today. >> My pleasure, Veronica. Nice job. >> Thank you.