Good evening. It's now 5:30 and I'm calling this workshop of the Victoria City Council to order. Our workshops are informal, so we dive right into our agenda. The one item on our workshop agenda this evening is a sketch plat for downtown west phase 2. Kicking us off on that topic is our community and economic development director Jen Brewington and city planner Brian McCann. Miss Brewington, Mr. McCann, I'm going to kick it over to you. >> Thank you, mayor and council members. Uh tonight we are looking at a sketch plat request for Victoria Downtown West Master Development. uh they submitted the sketch plat application just to receive feedback from the plan commission city council. They've already gone through planning commission at their meeting on September 2nd. So that's why you are seeing it here now this evening. There are no approvals or actions taken tonight. This is just to give uh the developers team feedback as they look towards making the preliminary plat and other land use applications. So, uh, the development team here, Carl and his entourage, as you all talked about earlier, uh, includes City of Victoria staff and city council, the Monarch development team, uh, SW group, Saunter Architects, Confluence, DJR, Civil Site Group, Excelsier Bay Partners, and Music Group. So, we have a lot of folks here this evening that have been having eyes on this project. So, for the location and area, it is currently two city-owned parcels totaling about 12 and a half acres in size, located north of Highway 5, south of the Carver Park Reserve, east of uh County Road 11, Victoria Drive, and some existing businesses there, such as the daycare and the Dairy Queen, and then west of Olivine Apartments, which if you recall was the Downtown West Phase 1 apartment building. Uh for the proposed uses this evening, they're looking at three phases of development with several commercial uses uses such as retail offices and restaurants as well as some open space, public gathering areas, and some highdensity residential products including town homes, condos, and apartments. For the existing conditions of the site, it's currently vacant land with rolling hills. Uh there are some small pockets of tree coverage throughout the site. you can see on the north and south sides uh in the image on the right. There are also utilities available from Stiger Lake Lane um which will also be included in the future extension of Stiger Lake Lane that's currently underway. And then uh also the Highway 5 corridor and adjacent businesses. It's also within 1,000 ft of Stiger Lake and Lake Auburn. So the Shoreland District comes into play as we look at this uh development. So, this was previously acquired by the city back in 2006 and was always anticipated for a future extension of our downtown area, uh, including restaurants, retail, mixed use, and other residential with a destination style setting. In 2016, the city council adopted the downtown master plan outlining the vision for the area. In 2022, uh that first phase, the Marco Mlan development, the Allvine apartment building, uh was finalized and then the RFP was published in 2024 and Victoria DW LLC was granted the exclusive development agreement uh with various renderings previously reviewed by the city council. And that is who is in front of you this evening. So, this was the sketch plat that was included in the report uh showing the multiple different proposed uses and how the parking and streets laid out throughout the entire 12 1/2 acre site. Here's a colored rendering that uh outlines those uses listed in the report more specifically including those public space areas uh the residential components as well as the retail commercial and then the central mixed use building for the site. I mentioned earlier that they'll be doing this in three phases. So here they've outlined the first phase including those town home condo buildings, the central mixeduse building, and then the future retail and restaurant buildings. Uh phase two would consist of more of those town home condo buildings on the north side of Stiger Lake Lane and then future phase three would consist of those multifamily buildings and one more commercial building. Our comprehensive plan guides this area as downtown mixed use which is between 24 to 75 units per acre. It also envisions smaller scale retail or offices and mixeduse development similar to what the applicant is proposing. Looking at this density for phase one, it comes out to about 6.3. Um that's for the 48 units proposed over all of the public infrastructure area. So that includes all the streets, uh, storm water, park areas, things we can't net out. So that's increasing that number drastically. It's likely not reflective of what the first phase density will actually come out to, but we are preemptively having conversations with the Metropolitan Council on the future vision of full buildout for this site. So we're not anticipating a comprehensive plan being needed, but we're going to have to talk through that a little bit further with the Met Council. a comprehensive plan amendment beed. Okay. >> Yep. >> Then for zoning, it is currently zoned central business district which allows the types of uses that they're proposing including uh highdensity residential, commercial, and mixed use buildings. Uh some of those may require conditional use permits depending on the types of uses that come in as well as any potential amenities for residential. So, if they have like a swimming pool on the top deck, that's something that per our code would require an additional uh conditional use permit. So, that's something that we'll just have to take a closer look at in the future. And then our central business district does not have any bulk standards. So, zero lot line setbacks. Um, that's apparent throughout all of the proposed buildings that they've shown in their plan. So the only standard that really comes into play is that maximum height of 50 ft. Most structures do appear to be compliant with that in their plan. In the off chance that any of them do exceed 50 ft, we also allow a height extension through a conditional use permit as well. Then for the streets, they are proposing multiple access points from Stiger Lake Lane. So that's the extension coming up through the site and connecting to County Road 11 on the north roundabout here. Uh the green areas are their proposed access points from that street. They're also proposing two access points from Highway 5. The first one here on the right highlighted in red would just be an entrance only uh off-ramp style basically from Highway 5. And then the purple area shown here is a proposed right in right out from Highway 5. For the pedestrian connections, they are showing sidewalks throughout the site. As you can see in the blue, they're scattered everywhere. So, there's lots of connectivity throughout the entire master development. They're also proposing a regional trail connection here stemming off from Highway 5's trail, which would run through uh the south side of this master development and connect to the trail along the south side of Stiger Lake Lane. For the parking, there's a total of 196 surface parking stalls shown. Um, based on the retail and commercial that was looked at, we are estimating about 188 parking stalls being necessary for those retail and commercial uses. Uh, there is also additional parking that is anticipated being allowed on Stiger Lake Lane, which would bump those surface style lots up. Um, but then also for the residential, we're anticipating that underground um, parking will be available to the residents. So overall, we anticipate this to meet our parking requirements, but we'll take a closer look at that with future submitts as well. For the landscaping and tree preservation, our central business district is pretty light on our landscaping standards uh because we want to promote that downtown connectivity. So they still need to incorporate boulevard trees and foundation plantings, but they are exempt from open space and minimum planting requirements. And I mentioned there are pockets of tree coverage on the site currently. So whatever they remove, uh if it's anything over 20% removal, they'll have to mitigate that with additional trees throughout the site. So we'll take a closer look at that as well. And then I mentioned it's within 1,000 ft of Stiger Lake and Lake Auburn with are which are both recreational development lakes in our zoning code. Uh requiring a 150 ft ordinary high water line setback. All those buildings that were proposed in the sketch plat meet that standard and then a maximum impervious of 80%. So that's another one we'll take a closer look at. uh but based on the renderings we anticipate that would be met as well. And then as part of the shoreland there is a RSPUD process which is a residential shoreland planned unit development. This is required for any structure that has more than four units for residential units in it. Uh what the applicant would have to do then is provide a tier analysis outlining a maximum number of units that would be allowed with the development. We did build in an exception for that two years ago. If you recall a shoreland ordinance that we went through with the DNR uh based on three criteria, an exemption would be possible for this development. Uh they're not providing any riparian access for the development. It's also consistent with the density range in the comprehensive plan at full buildout and then the development is consistent with the other requirements of the shoreland district. So we are anticipating an exemption to this standard if they move forward. And then for signage, lighting, and architecture. Uh the signage and lighting we'll look at uh closer with some more details at preliminary plat, but from what we can tell on the architecture, they appear to meet the central business district design standards, including uh altered building variations, roof designs, enhanced entries, and highquality exterior materials. So, here in the upper right are a couple examples of the restaurant and retail sites being proposed with the development. Uh, here's the mixeduse building. And then these are the town home condo units. So, here are a few additional renderings of those town home condo units. You can see a lot of uh brick and altered uh variations in the facades as well as some balconies. And then for the mixeduse building, they have the ground floor tenants and then the additional high density on the upper levels. And then once again here there are just a couple different renderings of the proposed retail spaces. And then here are some overhead renderings of that main street extension uh that we've talked about previously. So highlighting all of the uh commercial, restaurant, retail spaces throughout this strip for the those four buildings and the on street parking available. So when looking at parkland dedication, uh we aren't for sure on what that number will be yet since it's based on residential units and size of commercial developments. So we don't have all that information available yet. Uh but we do know that there is a formula set in code that we'll use as these developments move through the phases. Uh commercial projects though are exempt if they are less than 1 acre in size. So expect that to come up as we start talking about parkland dedication in the future. Uh but they are proposing a public active plaza here um about a third of an acre in size and then also the Victoria Community Center shown here. Both of these are potential areas that could be considered for Parkland dedication deductions. Here's that community center again. Uh they have two retail spaces proposed at the end of it. And then this is just a potential rendering of what the inside could look like. It could be used for event spaces um or any other potential uses. I think Jen has a little bit more information on that one if the city council has any questions on what that space could be used for. And then this is the public active plaza. Some renderings uh that were included with the case about potential engagement and activated spaces that could be used for this area. Looking at the grading and storm water management, it has to meet the MCWD's rules because it's within their jurisdiction, uh, including wetland impacts. Based on the existing conditions out there, we don't expect that to be an issue. And then a new regional storm water facility would be anticipated with this development to serve everything. That would have to go through additional review and coordination with the city engineering department and the MCWD. And then the site utilities are proposed to extend from that stagger lake lane expansion and then also connect to existing infrastructure serving the adjacent businesses. The plane commission reviewed this at their regular meeting on September 2nd. They were generally supportive. Uh they were particularly happy about the proposed uses and the building designs. They did have some general questions regarding the density requirements, uh the proposed highway 5 access points. They were also interested in the possibility of incorporating a trail connection to the Carver Park Reserve, uh additional parking if feasible, and they expressed a desire for a rooftop restaurant and a grocery store as part of this development. So, uh with that, that's all that staff has. Other representatives of the application are in the audience and I have some general questions to help guide discussion if needed. >> Very good. Thank you so much, Mr. McCann. Miss Brewington, anything additional that you would like to add? >> Yes, mayor, members of the council. I just wanted to share some notes that we have been talking internally about that community space and that community building that we are proposing and Carl's team is proposing. Um, so we've been working with our parks and recck crew along with our communications to figure out what spaces do they need when they're doing our events. Um, so looking at some storage space. Um, Brian mentioned hosting events of um, groups up to 150 people. We could do pop-up shops. We could do um, craft fairs, things like that. So really trying to be flexible with the space, not only just the users, but the the functionality of the building. So, is it roll up doors, um public bathrooms, water fountains, things like that that the public can access um throughout the day? Um we're also looking to using the site as a additional polling place um in the future. So, as you know, we're going to be having more residents living out there. So, how can we utilize this facility for that as well? So, a lot of exciting things with this space, not defined yet, but we are talking internally on what that could look like and really utilizing the um community engagement and surveys that we've we've used in the past, too. Very good. Thank you. All right, council. Um, Mr. McCann, you want to take us back to our questions to guide our discussion, please? And council, um, I open the floor now for discussion. Anybody want to kick us off? I think generally speaking, the Scotch Plat meets the vision of what we're looking for and what we're looking to do here. Um, I would have a few different questions about the actual design. To me, it feels like the community center building, the open area for restaurants, and then the park right next door. Is there a way to kind of better incorporate or bridge those together? >> You get what I'm saying or not? see a picture here that might be helpful. Mr. Runk, welcome. Please introduce yourself for the uh folks watching at home. >> Carl Rock of Monarch Development Partners and the the team um here can help answer questions. Do you mind uh repeating uh council council member Patterson on that? >> Um just the public park, the public plaza and the community room. they feel like there there could be a way to tie them all together better than having a retail place kind of in between. Again, we've gone through this a few different times, but that was one of the things that I just thought of as I'm well, not just this time, but just looking at it today. Um, and there's probably reasons why it's divided like this, but I just wanted to throw it out there for everybody. >> Sure. Sure. And this is now the fourth time we've been in front of you all um starting last back in last December in our workshops we've done and uh our earlier workshops we were showing the community space or proposed community space in that mixeduse building. As we looked closer at that with Jen and others on the staff um it was challenging really to program it and have people park there conveniently. Okay, >> which is where the brainstorming came out to be, you know, is there a better spot for this? And potentially, could it be um at the end of that retail building number four looking out onto the new central green and parking right there and looking over to Carver Park Reserve and still have retail next to it and then public bathrooms next to it that'd be accessible to anyone that accesses uh the new main street. So, that's what led to the evolution of thinking of that community space being there. Uh I don't know if that answers the question. we can speak more of the architecture itself, what's evolved on these buildings. >> And real quick, mayor and council, if I can, um, we also were taking consideration pedestrian crossings, too. So, we wanted to make sure when we've got something happening at the central green and then that public park plaza and at the community center, how are people walking through that that space? So, we want to be really mindful of why we moved that building to the opposite side. So, when you're also driving into downtown west, it's this grand entry building of, hey, you're here in Victoria Downtown West. here's a community space for you to to utilize. And so this also having it on the end here was just a better connection to the current downtown too is how we felt >> in the middle. It's a better connection to downtown >> on the end. Yep. >> So So are you proposing where we're circling around that that turns into the mixeduse community room and we move that commercial interior? >> Correct. >> Absolutely. Yeah. if we could look at that building more closely. So, we're proposing that there's two small shops there yet. >> Okay. >> Which helps diversify the offerings, you know, >> two retail shop >> retail small shops. Yeah. >> To be determined exactly what those are yet. And then on the east side facing Stiger Lake Lane would be the the new Victoria space is what's been proposed at least right there. >> Okay. Can you go back to that kind of master plan and orient us as to the Olivine building and where the central green is? Yes, mayor and council members. Here is the Olivine building. You can see uh the north edge of it right here. And then this is the central green space. >> Okay. Thank you. And so this first phase is is all these kind of buildings in the pink which will be where we land first. Lots of commercial, lots of retail with housing on the top. Do you anticipate owner occupied housing or is it rental housing? It's owner occupied housing. >> Okay. >> And we think in our our ability to uh sell because we're selling not leasing these homes and they're all two bedrooms and they're larger units that you're seeing at the apartment buildings that having the restaurants and retail buildings there and that public plaz will help and we think it'll help establish a sense of place there that people want to live up in the first phase of housing. But we are proposing owner occupied. >> We agree that we think that will be helpful. Um, Council Member Person, >> can I just go back? You guys have already kind of decided to move the community room >> east and south. All right. Well, there you go. There's my big contribution. You've already decided to do it. Um, but um the mixeduse building, that's basically retail and then most likely condominiums, right? condominiums as well as uh we're proposing about a 2,000 square feet or larger HOA community space, you know, because it's all owner owner occupied housing without large amenities within those buildings. So, we're proposing there' be, you know, club space and a fitness room and such in there for residents and potentially small commercial space yet as well. Um, and to be determined above yet if it's all residential condos or is there some commercial space. We're just now, you know, as this has become more real, talking to more tenants in the market and And what this is, we want to shape it around who the tenants are. >> That that building there that was formerly I guess the miss mixed use on the on the that looks like it's probably the tallest building that four stories and then kind of a maybe a little area that has a roof on the p like the rooftop patio type thing there. Is that what I'm seeing? >> That's the intent. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So four stories would be the highest is the intent right now for the for this phase at least. >> Yes. And then utilizing the hill again that we have this great topography, why not use it that way and have the the town homeown condos where you would have walk ups and the units above that >> are sitting up higher by nature of of the topography. And looking out to Carver Park Reserve is our goal there. >> And then those those homes in phase two that are showing here um that we had talked about were uh big homes. >> Do those those will actually then sit below that sight line of that of because of the way the topography is. step down a bit from there because of the topography again and those those homes are looking right over the park reserve and towards Siger Lake. Um so we thought it was important to fill the middle first with new housing and then expand east that way. But yeah, the idea is that there are views of people that you know buy those units at the top of the town buildings condo buildings to look over the big homes as much as they can or through those buildings with sight lines. We just were outside taking drone photography at different elevations to match this plan and that'll help inform exactly what this looks like with our preliminary plan application too. >> What was the um about or the proposed square footage of the community space? Do we know like what that potentially will be yet? >> Yeah, mayor and council, we were talking about 2,00 to 2500 square feet roughly. >> What for reference point, what would the Lions Pavilion be? Do we know? We don't >> I was just curious like for >> much smaller. >> You think this is bigger? >> Yes. Yes. >> How does this compare to like the community rooms that are over at the rec center? >> The community rooms that are at the rec center? I This would be definitely a lot different I would say. um more movable space, more movable furniture, movable walls, possibly more um AV options. Um I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with the Paradise Commons facility that was just built in Wakonia this last year. That space is pretty similar to about 2200 square ft. So thinking about that and that includes like a small kitchen area, um some storage space, office space. So just for reference, if you've been to that that building, that footprint's about similar. And then this is the space you were talking about doing like rolling doors or garage doors or leaving some of that flexibility there. >> Correct. >> Which I think that's a great idea. Um it just makes the space so much more usable from outside to inside. >> Um I've got a question on the outside public space too. I know we talked about making it allse all seasons use let's call it right. So, any thoughts about I mean it's pretty easy for the summer of fall and all that, but how about the heart of the winter? Have we thought anything more about that? >> Yeah, working with Arkansas confluence is not here tonight. Um, and Max Music had we have designed this to have positions for u pole structures for tents, you know, temporary tent structures that could be there in cold months for like a Christmas market or beyond that. So that was how this has been planned is thinking about how can you enclose it or partially enclose it at bunch of time >> and then have different program that could exist in there. So we'd like to work with the parks and rec department here to develop what that programming is exactly at different seasons and how could it work for that space. >> Great. >> Do you anticipate kind of turning that whole space over to the city of Victoria for ongoing maintenance and programming and all of that? >> We we do. We think that that's our intent right now, our proposal that there's a reciprocal easement and operating agreement between us and all the properties we're developing and what the city would own long term and how they could function together. >> But we're open open to how that would exactly work. So it so it's up to the standards that it works for the restaurants next to in their shops and up to the standards of the city of what you're looking for. >> Yeah, appreciate that. Thank you. Um, I want to take a look at that trail connection as well. >> Before we jump to that, y >> according to the internet, the Lions Park pavilion is 3200 square feet. >> Okay. >> So, it would be one and a half times bigger than this. >> Is that the Google that said that? >> It's the Victoria website. >> Thank you for You're welcome. >> Hustle on the end there, Council Member Patterson. All right. So this um trail it is shown in orange here hooks up to um the one that comes under highway five currently. Correct? Is that am I getting that right? >> Yeah. Powers sports or whatever >> correct? I I believe so. Or this would be new trail actually. I believe um I think you're thinking of the Lake Minnitanka regional trail. >> Okay. This is this would not hook up to the Lake Mitanka regional trail. This would go up through the site to connect to it, correct? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. But it does hook up or it does not. Okay. >> Let >> Thank you. >> Let the engineer talk. >> Yeah. Miss Garen, thank you for hopping. >> Mayor members council. Um, so this uh trail connection would connect to the trail that's being built with the highway 5 and 11 project. So, we are extending the regional trail um so so the Lake Minnotonka regional trail up along the all power sports building with the current project under construction and then it's going to come up along Stiger Lake Lane from where the orange ends on this picture. The current project under construction then also brings the trail up along Highway 5 and up County Road 11 and connects to the trail that the county is currently constructing along County Road 11. >> Okay. So this yellow line, >> what is what a an additional trail through the site? So a local trail connection. >> Okay. So you will be able to get to the Lake Minnitonka Regional Trail via >> trail. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. >> Add to that. We met with the three rivers park system superintendent Carlson board member chair the chair current chair about the idea of integrating more the three rivers park system and they're open to putting wayfinding signage like you see on the lake regional trail that says to Victoria to Excelsier to the park reserve. So they're open to putting that at this site to help direct people on bicycles and pedestrians. And the other I think one of the concerns I have is this is really this is really designed and envisioned to be very pedestrian friendly. And so if you've got people kind of rolling in on bikes fast, it's keeps it to the perimeter of the site as opposed to running through the middle of it. It feels like Yes. >> Yes. That was the the intent with it. So it's convenient. But for example, let's say we lease to a bike shop. That is bike shop right there. or a group wants to end and have a beverage at the rest tomorrow. So, it's convenient to have bikes parking right there as a destination. >> Yeah. So, it's right adjacent to that parking lot. Yeah. I love that. >> I think this is a a bigger like not just for this project, but I think you know when we think about our downtown and downtown west making sure, right, lots of like when the um uh parks and rec right like lots of bike racks um way finding and even side like to find those bike racks, right? because I think people sometimes are like you'd bike down, right? But we don't know where to park, right? Or they're just leaning against a light pole. So, um, so, but you know, I think having more bike racks for people to utilize, I think is important, especially. >> Yeah. >> Where just a question on general on parking. I I kind of understand the surface parking where you're at with that. You mentioned underground parking. Can you kind of point out where you're thinking for that? Well, there's um surface parking is always preferred by restaurant patrons and guests >> and the small shop guests. So, we we have surface parking in green as you see there. >> Underneath all the buildings, the mixed use building as well and the residential buildings, there's underground parking, two stalls per unit, which is the standard we need to meet for condo buyers and town home buyers. So, there's a lot more parking than you see on that diagram beneath all the buildings that are residential in use. Uh but we believe you know we're satisfying we're about there satisfying what the requirement be if there's two restaurants and there's two anchoring buildings and small shops in the other buildings and it's convenient enough on the west side east side that people will park and actually walk to these places. Um the planning commission did ask about could you build more parking and he said we would explore it and one of our early iterations we showed you all was that future multif family building potentially having covered parking there if we the place is running a few years with say two restaurants that are just really successful that we might look at adding covered parking drive it's green on the left there drive just forward and there's covered parking there with a multif family building above it. So, we are open to that as a future phase. >> When as we look at the future um phases and we want to do multifamily buildings, are you thinking rental apartment buildings? Is that what you're thinking in that? >> On the west side, we're thinking um because the Lake Auburn views are so good on the west side that you look right over the daycare building to Lake Auburn, those are condos. >> And then we're proposing the building to the south as multif family based on the performance of this is years down the road. We think based on the performance of Olivine rural residences and and Victoria flats and just seeing how they all do long term here before deciding if that's or proposing if that's multif family. But right now we think that there is demand enough demand long term for another building that could be positioned for this project. >> Does that need to be an apartment building to meet >> density requirements? >> Uh density. We have to answer that question. >> Um, mayor and council members, that will depend on the number of units. Um, not necessarily the type of unit. So, if condos is an option that works and they hit the right number, it's certainly possible to heat uh meet the density requirement. >> Okay. Is that is that going to be difficult? >> Well, um, most condo buyers are not looking for one-bedroom condos or studio condos. It's a it's a different market than they tend to see for rentals. So the density gets they become lower dense buildings by nature of being condos or town homes. >> Sure. >> I have a preference though for condos in the LA what we'll call the last building in there. And that feels like that's the space where we could get there's there's always the perennial ass for a grocery store. So, similar to what is in St. Louis Park where the Trader Joe's is at where you have the first floor retail, small grocery store, and then you have condos above that. U feels like that that could be a good place. And I mean, I I am more comfortable with more a little more density here. And I would even be more comfortable in that building being a little bit taller. And you really wouldn't you could bring your premium condos in a penthouse arrangement on top of all that and not disturb really any of the other sight lines of all the other buildings that are sitting in here. Yeah, we're because we're phasing this um we're going to learn a lot along the way where demand is and on retail too and um being able to come back to you after a couple years here would we know more to give you an update that we could do a Trader Joe's type if there wasn't you know interest for example >> we need interest of course yeah >> right at this time you know early on our discussions there's not been or if there is an interest ger um it would just take up really a lot of the sites with sort of a giant surface parking lot in a big box and there's also the new mathun's open just a few miles north of here now in Minrista >> to consider you know as far as comp competition nearby. >> So do you have a sense as to how deep you could go with parking in in that structure? >> Um with the topography of the site and our grading plan it would be underneath the footprint of that multifamily building right now. So it' be what would be one one two two rows of parking. Is that what guys? >> Yeah. So, the number of stalls we might have laid out would be 70 something stalls we could add in that case, which would be easy for guests. I mean, just to drive it under instead of going underneath the garage or up a garage, you're at the same level in that case. >> And then just really quick on feedback on sidewalks, if we could bring that back up. Um, I I it looks great. I'd say that a weakness I'd see is along the the very western edge of the for phase three that parking lot. Um in order to get to the other phase three large multi-unit condo building, you'd have to go to the east, jog northwest, and then head west just to get to that building. Is there an ability for where it looks like there's the ramp going underground into that main building that there uh can be some sort of sidewalk in there? >> Yes. Right now we we have more of a ceremonial stairs and pathway where the the blue line is connecting to the active plaza. >> Okay. >> But we haven't just we haven't developed those future phases that much. But I I agree with your comment that it'd be if you live in the let's say conduburn, it'd be more direct path to go down that way. Okay, great. Thanks, Carl. >> All right, council. Other feedback? >> Other feedback? I I mean, I feel like there's enough park space in here between what we can name the half moon up in the um center part. And then with the green and then the multi- lawn space, it feels like we certainly have a fair amount of recreational space in here. I mean, visav when you look at what we have downtown currently today. We only just have this one slice here and then and that that feels a good size here. This feels substantially similar. I this checks all my boxes. I love that we're doing the commercial part first. I think that's really important when you start trying to fill um homes. Um people want to be where there's stuff going on. The walkability is great. I love the architecture of it. I feel like it matches it. it. You know, one of the really important things for me is that it actually flows really well with our current downtown and doesn't look like here's a downtown and here's a downtown. It's one downtown and that's really important to me and I feel like we we this all these elements sort of captured that. So, um you know to council member to Chad's point about um bike racks and stuff like that. We want this to be walkable, bikable, um, and a really active space. And I I I feel like you checked all the boxes. I >> Thank you. Looks great. >> Thank you. And it's hard to balance both that the people running the restaurants and running the shops, they need cars, but they al also wanted to make it very walkable. So, it's a challenge, but I think we've we've done that with the team here at this point. >> Yeah. Nice. Nicely done. Nicely done. So I think you've said before you're I think best case scenario would right like that you'd like to even be moving dirt sometime this year, right? So are you thinking you know phase one would be done spring of 2027? Um and then would you start phase two right after that depending obviously >> yes how things go. ambition really is to be in front of you with preliminary plat already in November if we could hit that timeline and work with you on a on an early start agreement is what we've asked staff to start doing mass grading this winter and December before it gets really frozen out there and let the the dirt settle for spring to do all this site work because we have to build a city essentially horizontally first and then come up with the retail buildings in the spring and summer and the condo buildings and we would also like to uh we're looking right now in downtown Victoria for space for to build a sales gallery for condos because unlike apartments, we have to actually sign purchase agreements with buyers who trust this is happening and they want to see the site actually getting built or starting to get built. And we'll build a sales gallery with a simulated condo unit and videos of the drone shots uh this winter is our goal. So, we we have if things go as planned, we really want like to get started already before it's frozen this winter. >> All right, council. last thoughts, questions. Did we hit all the Did we hit all your questions? >> Yes, mayor. >> All right, very good. >> Should u I guess following up on your comments on the community space, should we meet offline as a you know, public private here again on that? Was that a recommendation you're on hearing or to >> maybe I have one more question on it because outside of the grocery store, the number one thing Victoria residents want is a water feature and I'm just wondering if there's a spot where we could incorporate a water feature. We certainly can as long as it functions. It doesn't >> Well, I'm just trying to think of where exactly we're going to put it. And that's where you come in and come up with ideas for me. I >> mean, if we >> Is a water feature like a water fountain? >> Well, no. It could be a swimming pool, a waiting pool, um, rain deck, I think is what they're called. And just something along those lines where it's, you know, is it at the community center? Is it north of the uh green? Is it somewhere else with the other there's another phase where there's a park on the north end? Maybe there's a water feature there. Um, >> we had a scheme uh that had a water feature at this active plaza. As we thought about it more, kids are going to get wet and then they're going to go into these restaurants and the restaurant offers. >> That's we thinking maybe if there we agree, but maybe there's a spies of central green if we work with the city or somewhere that that could be here. Well, that's and at sketch plat's the best time to have this discussion, not at final or even preliminary. So, that's where I'm saying if there's some way we can incorporate or if it makes sense or if it doesn't say walk away person, you have no idea what you're talking about. I can accept that. Um, but it's just one of the things that residents have asked about and it seems like if there's an opportunity, let's check it out. If there's not, we'll keep trying to b pound one in at the rec center sometime. One of the things that I think um we we really should be cognizant of and I and I leave it to you guys and staff to kind of work out timing on this, but as we are building this infrastructure, I mean we don't want to we don't want to have a great stage with nowhere for a guitar to plug in for instance. So I mean there's some infrastructure things that I think we have to work out. I don't know how specific we have to be about programming at this point in time, but I I think we leave it to staff to kind of let us know at what the what the appropriate amount of time is as we start thinking through the very specifics of how we're going to use that space. What does it look like? You know, you mentioned tent poles where you got a place to anchor a tent. I mean, I think all of that is really great as we start to, you know, as we're building this thing. Um, we want to make sure that we've we've got all the that we've kind of thought about all of the things that we might want to do and incorporate those. But I think at this point I is it too soon to be talking about that? >> Probably. >> We've uh our budgets we've submitted to the staff include allocations for electricity for example. So you could plug in speakers, >> a TV screen that could come up for the Vikings game for example. Like so we we have allocations of that but we need to work together with you on what exactly this is. >> Yeah. Well, >> I think we have a good example, right? Like we have the band standalone here. So, it's like, okay, it works great, but what are those things that we could have done then what we know now, right? >> Because it's going to be, you know, obviously it's not going to have the big hill like we do here, but it's going to be, you know, similar spacing and stuff. So, >> right. But I I I mean I feel like um even as we start to um look at our future budget, you know, if we're going to need benches or a grandstand or, you know, a stadium seating, I don't know, we're we're going to need to think about that for our future budgets as well. So, so there's a there's probably a magic point in time when we have those conversations and we'll we'll just trust that staff will get to us by that magic point. >> Preliminary PL application. It be great to talk again with staff about what we're designing exactly. So, we have more detail for proposing >> and you know, our communications department and our park and wreck has been out in the park areas talking about this kind of stuff and their their wish list and that sort of thing. So, I'm I'm going to take a leap and say some of this probably is pretty well vetted um or the ideas are actually out there already. So we can kind of decide. >> Right. Exactly. So all right. All right. Council, any last questions, comments for the team? >> Thank you for bringing us this beautiful >> Thank you. >> development. We're excited about it. >> Fun. Fun to partner with you all. >> All right. Very good. >> Thank you. >> All right. Um there are no further items on our workshop agenda this evening. So I will entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> We have a motion and a second. All in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. I. >> Any opposed? Motion carries. We stand adjourned. We will reconvene in