Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. It is 5:30 and I will call this regular work session of the Burnsville City Council to order. Our work sessions are informal and we go directly to the items on the agenda. I want to also make it known that members of our public are welcome to attend in person. Uh they may also choose to watch the meeting at burnsvillemn.gov. gov/meings or Comcast channel 16 or 859. The public can also participate through Zoom by joining us at zoom. us/join. More information is available on our meetings web page and in the council agenda packet. And now we will go directly to our first item on the agenda and that is our community survey. And uh our HR director, Mike Tracy, is going to introduce our guest. And so Mike, the floor is yours. >> Yes. Good evening, mayor and council. We are here to talk about the community survey. So, it was back in spring of earlier this year where we um we talked about the community survey and our plans for administering it this year. As a reminder, we do this every four years. We conduct a residential and a business survey. Um our partner from Cobalt Community Research, William, is here. Um he's going to go into detail um over the results of both the residential and business surveys. Um and obviously, we'll we'll stand for questions as well too um either during or after the presentation. So with that, I'm gonna pass it over to William. >> Oh, thank you. Is there a advancer for the slides? >> Yeah. Well, welcome m um uh Mr. St. Amore. >> Thank you very much. >> Good to have you here. >> I appreciate it. Um so let me provide a little bit of background. Uh so Cobalt Community Research, we are a 501c3. We're based over in Michigan, so we're getting a lot of the snow for you guys, so we're taking the bullet from you this time. But later this winter, we'll we'll expect the the you to take it for us. Um our mission is really to provide both research and education for local units of government. We focus mainly on small and medium-sized communities. Uh we do this all over the country. Uh why research matters? There's there's a lot of important reasons to do this kind of exercise on a regular basis. Um, first of all, it's just a good exercise to build trust, to understand perception, to understand what it is that that residents want. And sometimes what you hear when you're out getting milk, when you're out in the community and you have folks that approach you with certain concerns, uh, it may or may not line up with statistically what everyone is interested in. So, it's nice to have this kind of pulse check to see statistically where are people leaning, you know, what are the priorities, what are the kind of experiences that they're having, and where do you need to dive in and explore a little bit more in terms of continuously improving the kind of experience that uh folks are having. Um, on the resident side, I'd like to drop straight to the the bottom line so that you know how things went. And I'd like to start off by just saying the city did really, really well. Um, this is something that also doesn't happen by accident. So, I want to really, you know, recognize leadership, staff, there's a lot of really good things that happen to allow these scores to be as strong as they are. You're not perfect. So, there's things that we'll dive into as we get into this more deeply. Um, but you do need to stop and recognize the the positive things that are going on. Um, one of the things that we do with the results is we take a look at which of the the experiences that people have are the most strongly related to overall satisfaction and also certain outcome uh outcomes. And those outcomes are things that the communities care about. People remaining in the community, recommending it to others, encouraging folks to start a business in the community, volunteering, those types of things. And so uh some of the scores are going to have a stronger linkage with those kind of outcomes. Some are going to have a weaker a weaker linkage with those. Um so as we go through this I'll be sharing that with you more when we look at 2025. Uh the things that were the strongest links to overall satisfaction were city management the parks and recreation sustainability image and forensical vision. Now these are not scores that are necessarily low or high. These are just the things that are the most tightly linked with overall satisfaction in those downstream outcomes that I talked about. Very similar to what they were in in 2021. And you can take a look at those. Um the things that people like the most when we asked them with an open-ended question, the themes that came out were parks. They they love the parks. They love the location. Uh they love the convenience of where everything is located. Um what they like least. Um there were a number of comments regarding some of the things going on with some of the schools. uh Burnsville Mall came up quite a bit and then also roads and roads are something that have come up with every community I've ever worked with everywhere. So that's just an ongoing ongoing thing. Um when we look at the most important services in terms of where to focus your resources and your attention, uh folks said fire and EMT, uh police, uh and parks were really the big things that came up. And those aren't necessarily the things that will have the most leverage on your overall scores, but as far as just an explicit priority, those are the things, the meat and potatoes, uh, which is pretty similar to what we see with other communities. Um, the most preferred potential future amenities. We asked them kind of wish list sort of thing. Uh, farmers market came up, um, walking and biking trails, uh, park restrooms, community center, those types of things. And when we looked at uh what uh residents would prefer to be funded through the existing budget, um they prefer that you having trouble squeening. I think I need new bif focals as well. Um >> city hall, >> they want to really have you fund them out of the existing budget rather than new funding for these particular things. And we'll go into that in more detail in a minute as well. >> Okay, this particular chart gives you a bit more context. So, these are highle measures. There's a bunch of questions underneath of each of these. I realize it's a little bit hard to read, but the ones that are in green are the ones that are the most strongly linked with your overall satisfaction. And you've got your scores over on the uh right hand side that show your uh 2021 scores and your 2025 scores and what that difference was. And really, for the most part, uh things were within the margin of error. So statistically pretty similar to what we saw back in 2021 uh with the exception of economy which was something that had a bit more of a a swing to it. Not something you can necessarily control as well but uh that that certainly was a factor but you can also see various other levels of um comparison. You can see national national for similarly sized cities the Midwest and Midwest for similarly sized cities and Minnesota and Minnesota similarly sized cities. So you've got a number of different uh levels that you can look at to give you context for for how you're performing relative to those other areas and you're performing well. So methodology kind of boring but kind of important too. So we did this in May, April and May. Um we sent this out to random sample of folks uh using info USA. We did beef up our methodology from what we did last time back in 2021. Last time we did uh mail and and online, we also opened this up using uh text messages. So, sending out test messages to folks and also to email, sending out an eblast to the folks that were part of the random sample. So, we did do the random sample. It went out to 2,000 folks. Um we had a total response of 611. You can see that it was 541 back in 2021. So, that was a nice bump. Uh and then we can see a couple of different breakdowns between the random sample piece and then we open it up for any residents who were interested during the second wave. Uh so you can see what that looks like as well. One thing that I do like to point out from a statistical standpoint is we don't we don't intermix the um the folks that were part of the random sample and the folks who were uh not part of the random sample. We like to keep those two scores separate because the folks that are not part of the random sample, there may be some self- selection bias and things. So, um there is a line in the cross tabs right at the very bottom where you can see how the non-sample folks responded compared to the folks that were part of the sample. For the most part, it's the same, but sometimes you see some things where issues a little bit different between those two different cohorts. >> The folks that responded, were they all Burnsville residents and Burnsville businesses? >> Yes, that's correct. >> That were Okay. >> Yep. And when I look at the uh 611, these are just the residents at this point. I'll I'll talk about businesses in a few minutes. >> Um, we also weighed the results by ethnicity. This is the same way that we did it back in 2021 just so you had a good apples to apples comparison. And the details in terms of your response rates from the different groups, that's part of your cross tab packet as well, but it was very similar to what we saw last time around. You have a number of tools that are available to you um from a comparison standpoint. So you can look at various local governments at the state, regional and national level. So that gives you a lot of insights. Um you can also look at your scores from the prior year in 2021 and you can also even look at scores from non-governmental entities. Uh we do this in conjunction with the American customer satisfaction index out of the Ross Business School at U of M. Uh they survey hundreds and hundreds of companies not only in the US but internationally as well. So, the ACSI is is one of those economic indicators that's reported out quarterly by by U of M. Um, but you can dive on to the website theacsi.org and you can look up a huge number of companies or industries depending on what your interest is to see what kind of scores they have. And it's often interesting because you know government you're you're providing a broad package of services to a broad package of folks but sometimes it's interesting to look at a specific bank or or or a even a a corporate bank and see what their performance is focusing on a much more specific kind of market. So you can get some insights there in terms of uh possibilities for improvement. So this chart is designed scientifically to be unreadable and and I'm glad to say that we can always do that successfully. But the point of this slide is to point out how to read your cross tabs. And this is just kind of a little tiny picture of what they look like. And essentially every question in the survey um those are the columns marching across. And then across the rows you've got your your 2021 score and your current score. And then you have breakdowns by each of the individual demographic cohorts. And this is just a a glimpse of some of the ones that we looked at. But what it allows you to do is at a glance you can see where did you score pretty high. So those are the areas in blue. Uh where did you score not as well? Which are the areas in pink. And where is there kind of a mix. If you're going down a column for a particular question and it's pretty much all blue, that means regardless of demographic group, people had a pretty similar kind of experience or they have similar priorities. If you've got more of a mix of the red and blue, that means that there are some differences with those demographic groups. And as you're having conversations out in the community, this is a useful tool for a specific question. Say, "Hey, maybe we didn't score as well with this particular group on this issue." When you're in the milk aisle, you can ask specifically about that issue and get much more um actionable feedback than just sort of a general how are things going kind of conversation. So looking at your outcome behaviors compared to the benchmark. So your scores are the ones that are on the uh right hand side of each each uh question. So you can see uh your current score in the dark blue and then the uh gray is your score from 2021. >> The greens are Minnesota. The the kind of the reds and oranges those are mid midwest. And then your blues are the national scores. The lighter colors in each of those are the smaller index. So smaller community size. That's more of your true index in terms of uh looking at similar sized communities. Way over on the far right hand side you can see that those particular scores don't have benchmarks and that's because these were specific to you. So these aren't part of the benchmarking. Um a couple things I want to point out is first of all in many circumstances you are at or above the benchmarks which is a really strong place. So again, that that speaks well for you. And also, you can see the blue bar compared to the gray bar in many cases has gone up. Either the same or it's gone up. So that's also a good sign. As far as things that um are doing particularly well, um a little hard for me to read them from here, but the second set of columns there as far as I think it's remaining in the community. >> Yep. Um, so that >> pardon >> remain living here five years. >> Yep. So that was your highest scoring area. So that's that's an excellent thing to have. It's because people vote with their feet and the volunteering is the thing that's the softest. You're still above the benchmarks, but that's something that is not uh super high performing in terms of uh an outcome compared to your other areas. So, one of the things that we do a lot of in this particular survey are these kind of bubble charts. And this does a bunch of different things. First of all, on the vertical, it's plotting your score on a scale of 0 to 100. You can see that it's not the full scale. We zoom in on that so you can see the relative differences. And then across the horizontal is the relationship with overall satisfaction. So things that are further over on the right side, those are the things that are more closely linked with your overall satisfaction. the things on the left side are less closely linked with your overall satisfaction. Um, where you see the numbers, the labels, those are the current year numbers. So, you can kind of see which direction the line has gone. Has it gone up or down? Um, and the tail end, so the end without numbers, uh, that's your 2021 scores. So, as you look at this, if you look at the lower right hand quadrant, those are your strategic weaknesses, relative weaknesses. They're below that horizontal line. That means these are things that are having a kind of a downward pressure on your overall scores. And then the things that are in the upper uh right quadrant, those are the things that are having more of a positive impact on your scores, pulling your scores up. Both things on that side are strategic. Improve those and your scores will go up and those outcome behaviors will go up. Over on the left hand side, those are things that are much more optimized in terms of how things are performing. It doesn't mean that they're unimportant. It just means that they're not linked mathematically as strongly with those particular outcomes and with overall satisfaction. I always like to point out the fire and police for a couple of reasons. U first of all, the fire scored higher than police. I know there's always a competition between the two. So, uh so the fire department has a little bit of a higher score there, but also um you know that they're important things. We've seen from other areas in the survey that those are important. What this is showing isn't if they're important or not important. It's just showing again that relationship. The uh analogy that we often use is like buying a car. When you're buying a car, you're looking at things like the price, the safety, the styling, those kind of things. It's not whether or not it has a steering wheel. Is a steering wheel important? Yes. But it's not the thing that differentiates you buying one car from another car. And that's really what this chart shows. It's not going to advance for my computer. >> We need we need bigger TV monitors for all these. >> So this next one is looking at community image. >> I know these are really hard to read. >> Looking at community image. Uh so these are kind of a sense of brand. So again we have a similar sort of of pattern of how well you scored u compared to the benchmarks. You scored above the benchmarks in most cases. In many cases you also improved your score over 2021. Um, you do have a few areas that are difficult to read. I want to bring them up in my computer so I can look at them a little bit more easily and talk about them. Bear with me just half a second. When you're looking is burn. So what we see as your higher scoring areas are things like an enjoyable place for older adults that scored very well. Um also the enjoyable place for children scored very well. Um areas that were a little bit softer is a safe place to walk and bike at night and also uh uh we had a bit of a lower score with physically attractive um and curb appeal. So couple of things to to keep in mind there. >> What's the one on the far right? >> Far right. on the >> place that is >> can't you can't see it when I wiggle a mouse but that is inclusive and >> celebrates diversity >> is that the final bar is the current year right so that is >> that's correct >> yeah so the last two years actually that >> statement and a couple others is very high >> scored well and it's stable >> and the Burnsville bar is on the far right of each category >> that's correct that >> 2025 >> that's exactly true >> 2021 is the line next to it the next great score higher than virtually every category against all the comparisons it looks like >> against against the index. Yep. Yep. >> So you're in a very strong position. So again going to these uh scatter plots what you see here are each of those individual questions within image. Uh same sort of thing. Your current year is where the the label is. Um and you can see that the cluster for the most part is over on the right hand side. Uh some of them are above the line, most of them are below the line just a little bit. So they are pulling the score down a little. Uh but you can look at which are the ones that are the strongest drivers. Uh and which are the ones that are particularly low in terms of prioritizing which particular scores to go after to improve through your next cycle. >> What are the ones that are above the line? There's three or four there. So the ones that are the highest there >> like >> they came from the chart before has the same sort of >> 69. >> It's this it's the diversity. >> Yep. >> It is also the um enjoyable place for older adults and enjoyable place for children and and mayor and council I have just sent the presentation to you all. So you can >> we can zoom in. >> You can zoom in. Yep. Yeah, >> city management. This is always one that again has a lot of data to it. Um, again, we see that the pattern is the same that that we've been seeing in other areas. So, your scores are strong. Uh, and for the most part, they've improved a little bit over 2021. Um, areas that were particularly strong. Let me scroll over so I can read what the uh the names are. Just a second. So when we're looking at city government, your highest scoring areas are fair and respectful interactions with residents, love level of professionalism for uh that the staff have. >> Yeah. and maintaining a website that meets needs, having employees who are well trained, having leaders who are trustworthy. So, a number of things that are are very key. And again, you're well above the benchmarks. Your lowest scoring area as far as things to keep more of an eye on, >> spending dollars wisely and enforcing appearance and safety codes, both residential and business. um on the spending dollars wisely. That is something that we consistently see low with most communities and it is not an issue of making poor spending decisions. It's a matter of the communication of those spending decisions not being as good as it could be and that's for a couple of reasons. One is you there may be times where you don't really get into the guts of how these kind of decisions are made. Also, folks, their eyes tend to glaze over when you start getting into those financial decisions and they just kind of have their own perception of what government does that they overlay in whatever it is that you say. Um, so that also is something that has a a a negative pressure on that. But communication is one of the keys to taking the score and and lifting it. Is there a question? >> Yeah. Um, any questions? No. >> Looking at the impact again, these are all over on the right hand side. These are things that are pretty impactful. Um, you can see that center line going through. So, a lot of your scores are above. Generally, things have been going up. So, the slant on those those lines is in a positive direction. Uh, but again, diving in and looking at those areas that are below the line, those will tell you what your your strategic weaknesses are. So, again, they're really good scores, but they're they're lower than the rest of your cluster. So, those are things to look at. And the things that are above the line, those are strategic strengths. things that you're doing well and if you do them even better that will continue to have leverage in lifting your score. This next graph is just giving you a little bit more detail in terms of how did people respond uh to the individual questions uh broken down by how frequently they contacted the city. And for the most part um if they didn't have any contact with you at all they were pretty happy. uh and the more contact they had with you typically their results are a little bit lower with the exception of the professionalism of staff. So as they work with staff u the more they work with staff typically that they continue to have a high uh impression in terms of the professionalism and the service level that staff provide. We did dive in and look at how people receive information, how they pre prefer to receive information and uh you can see what that looks like there. So the highest one is the uh the newsletter followed by US mail and then followed by email. And there are some significant differences there by age. So we do provide a breakdown of each of those by age group because depending on what your messaging is and who the group is that you're trying to reach, you want to make sure that you're using the right communication mode uh to reach that particular group. looking at the economy. So, this wasn't one of your drivers, but I did add it in because some of these are drivers and it will become more of a driver over time as we're in this particular cycle. Again, your scores are above the benchmarks, but you can see that they've started to soften up a bit compared to 2021. Um, so those are some things to keep in mind, particularly the questions around jobs. So, the quality of jobs and availability of jobs is a little bit lower. Um the the housing, that one's actually held up pretty well as far as the maintaining the value of their home. Affordability of homes, that's been a challenge all over the country. And that's something that uh typically it's not as strong of a driver for current residents. The concern behind that often lies in either um someone with a business and their staff not necessarily being able to afford to live in town or people who have kids that grew up here and they're no longer able to to afford a home when they want to move back home again. So again just looking at the impact of those you can see that the economy is below the line. So it is having a downward pressure and then you can see what are those particular questions within it that are the the strongest drivers. Parks and recreation again above the benchmarks again a little bit of a softening going on. >> When we look here we can see that all of the park scores are pretty clustered and they're all in that upper right hand quadrant which tells me that parks really are an important strategic asset in the community. So, not only is it something that helps you re uh helps your your your residents be happy and you know recommend the city to others and so on, um also parks can have a pretty significant economic benefit as well because you're drawing people from outside the community because you've got a good good offering here. Your questions around sustainability pretty much the same as they were back in 2021. A little bit of softening, not enough to be statistical. Uh but you can see that uh some of those those columns did drop a little bit more. So the again trying to indicate with my mouse. I'm used to doing this online. Um the let's see the third one from the right. The quality of >> management >> tree management. >> That one dropped a little bit. As well as the one that's right next to it, the sustainability information. >> Yep. So those are a couple of areas that uh again you can look at what is your actual performance of them or is it communication around those those are questions that that staff can think about. >> And then looking at the impact you can see that um some of these are are more impactful and are over on the right hand side of that center line. Overall vision very similar to what we saw back in 2021. Um so pretty solid people are definitely engaged uh with the vision. It resonates with them particularly when we look at this next slide and you can see everything on the vision is over on that right right hand side. So you are aligning clearly with with the things that people care about and also many of those lines are sloping in an upward direction which is also encouraging. getting into some of the questions around budget and planning. Um very similar pattern when we look at what are the most important services and programs. So you can see that the fire and ambulance is way up there along with police and parks. Um the trails and sidewalks also are pretty high scoring area. you already have a a fourth place looking at potential future community amenities. So, you can see what that looks like as well. Going to jump over to my other screen here just so I can read it more easily. in. So, the things that that have the strongest level of support here are around sidewalk improvements, walking trails, uh traffic enforcement, and uh park restrooms. Then we took those and we looked to see um how supportive are people in terms of um basically spending more on those what what their approach would be. And for the most part people just want to keep the budget the way it is in terms of funding those. So they're not especially excited about spending a lot more on those for the most part. There's there's a few exceptions, but you can look at that as part of your planning process. And then we had an open-ended question asking them what kind of businesses they would like to see added to the community. And the way that this works is open-ended question the things that came up most often. The words that come up most often are the largest words in this cloud. Uh and then we take a look at what are the themes around those words. So you can see around restaurants they want to see more uh quality dining places. So fewer fast food, more places where they can sit down and enjoy it with their family and friends. um retail, they'd like to have uh more retail option. Um the mall came up as part of that conversation. They like independent shops, those kind of things. And then Burnsville Mall came up as well. So looking at uh things that you might be able to do over there, there's a lot of lot of things to consider. Um one thing on any of the comments, uh because as you go through these results in detail, there's a lot of comments that are part of your packet. Um, you're going to see some comments that might come up three, four, five, six times and those are going to tend to stick in your head, but I do want to point out that those comments are from like 600 people. So, even though when they're repeated a few times, they're going to stick in your head. Just keep in mind that the comments are not really statistical. They just give you a little bit more insight in terms of why did people respond the way that they did. Um, so if someone is is if it shows up, you know, a handful of times over and over again, that repetition sticks in your head. Or if someone is particularly eloquent describing things, that will stick in your head. Or if someone is particularly passionate, whether positively or negatively, that tends to stick in your head as well. So just keep in mind that we're storytelling animals and the the comments are really useful, but they can kind of hit our blind spots in terms of how we interpret the data. Some pretty nasty stuff in there, too. >> There can be. Yep. >> Not as bad as Facebook, but there Yeah, >> there's definitely a few comments. There's also a lot of encouraging comments, too. >> True. >> Okay. So, we talked about what businesses they would like to see. So, I'm transitioning now over to the business study in terms of how that went. Uh, so again, looking at the bottom line, you did really well. Uh, you really maintained from 2021. and some things are a little higher, some things are a smidge lower, but for the most part, it's within the the margin of error. You're outperforming the benchmarks again, which is again a good thing. Um, one of the things that we saw both on the business side and on the residential side is in 2021, um, there's kind of a COVID honeymoon period. Uh, people were just happy that folks were still in business, that the city was still providing information, um, that the city was still doing things. And uh for a lot of our clients, we saw the scores from 2021 to current drop. We didn't see that with you guys. So they they held pretty firm, which is actually a a really encouraging thing. When we look at the things that are the big drivers, you can see the 25 compared to the uh 21 uh regulatory environment, the uh place location that I'll go into a little bit more detail, but as far as the the site of of Burnsville as a business location, uh local government management, um your vision again, and the collaborative environment were the big five things that popped up, and we've got questions around all those. We wanted to get a sense of how businesses are doing. What are they feeling? Are things good? Are they bad? Um, and they said that they're generally optimistic. So, they're either, you know, going to be stable, doing doing the same kind of level of business and same kind of employment as what they've seen in the past or actually improving a little bit. Um, we asked them what Burnsville does well and they said community involvement is one of the things that Burnsville does well. um that there is uh good road signage, uh good access, and that there's generally a feeling of safety in the community. So, those are all things that that shine through the eyes of these entrepreneurs and businesses that you've got. Um when we look at the most valuable potential future services, uh the things that came up were really dealing with the information on grants and loans. So, not so much getting grants and loans from you, although I'm sure they'd be happy to. Uh, but more along the lines of understanding when those opportunities are available and what they need to do to to go after them because these business owners, they've got a business to run. They don't know how to deal with grants and all of that. And so, the city being able to provide them with that information and some help is something that has a lot of value for them. Um, other things that they would like to see, uh, information on annual fee changes and safety workshops with with police and fire. So, you know, as you guys are out there, what are the uh common vulnerabilities either from a police or a fire situation that they might want to be mindful of uh to help them avoid some of those situations? Because while they they like your police department and they like your fire department, they'd rather not have them come to the place and do business there because that's that's means something bad happened. Uh most respondents um when we're talking about regulation uh they would like to keep the same level of regulation that there is today uh there are a few things that a a plurality but not a majority of folks said that they would like to to see change a little bit. Um one around them is restrictions um around uh blight disrepair that kind of thing. They would like to see more restrictions around that just to kind of clean up some of the the areas that need cleaned up. And then the other area is door-to-d dooror solicitation. Something that might be a little bit harder, but uh businesses tend to get hit a lot with people asking for money. And uh while they're happy to help, it starts to get a little bit relentless at times when every day you've got multiple groups knocking on the door methodology. So, similar to the way that we did it with the residential, um we pulled the information again from data axle, which used to be info USA. um about 2,000 businesses. Uh we ran the um the collection by mail and email uh in March through May. Businesses could respond either by paper or they could respond online with an ID number so that we made sure that they only responded once to help us manage reminders. Um we heard from 229 businesses um which is better than what we saw in 2021 which was 207. That gives us a margin error of about plus or minus uh 6.1%. Um, we also had seven folks who weren't part of the sample that participated. We lumped them in with the overall results because there's so few of them that they actually didn't change the numbers. They weren't so different that they changed the numbers. Um, so, uh, just to be aware of that. Um, one of the questions that often comes up for any survey either on the residential or on the business side is, you know, for our community, are these enough responses to be able to draw conclusions? And the answer is yes. So on the residential side, for a national survey to get plus or minus 5% of what 330 million people are thinking, you only need about 387 responses. So you're in pretty good shape. Same thing with businesses. Um we always now from a analyst standpoint, I like to see more. More is always better, but but your results are very solid. Uh we also looked at what kind of businesses responded and that's in your cross tabs and it's very similar to what we saw in 2021 as well. So when we're looking at changes, it's a pretty good apples to apples thing. As with the last uh survey, you can see your results over on the far right hand side and how your results uh compare to other levels of government. There's not as many benchmarks on the business side, but you can see overall your scores are very strong compared to the other levels with the exception at the very bottom of the ACSI overall, the national ACSI, which is a score of 77. And that's because that one is a mix of not only public sector, but also private sector as well. It's mostly private sector. And private sector almost always outperforms government because they're looking at a very specific uh audience target of of customers with very specific services as opposed to a city that's offering a very diverse group of services to a very diverse group of uh of customers basically. But again pretty strong performance when we look at the outcome behaviors you know almost identical to what we saw in 2021. The big difference is that third one over um that I can't read off hand. So let me change over to this slide so I can see it. So that's uh support the current local government. So that one is a little bit softer than what we saw but still is right in line with the other ones. Um so pretty solid scores. As with the last survey, we took all of these and we plotted them out. So again, your scores are on the vertical. The impact in terms of the relationship with overall satisfaction, those outcomes are on the horizontal. You can see that a lot of these lines really are horizontal. So from a improvement standpoint going up and down, they didn't change a whole lot, but a lot of them did shift a bit um either to the right or to the left in terms of what their importance is. And so that's something to be mindful as mindful of as well. When we looked at the top areas on that overview slide, we took the five that were over there on the right hand side. And so I'd recommend uh as you get into your planning process, those are the ones that that are the most useful to look at in terms of driving your scores up. Scores that are on the other side, both for the business survey and for the residential side, doesn't mean that they're unimportant. Again, it just means that they're not as strongly linked with those outcomes. There may be other reasons to to work on things on that side, but they're not going to be improving your overall satisfaction or those downstream goals. Looking at place, this is one of the drivers. Um, so you can see those scores softened a little bit compared to 2020 one. Not a ton, but but a little bit. Um, your highest scoring areas are the uh quality of life and a great place to have a business. to scooch over so I can read them a little bit more easily. But again, those are are pretty solid scores. And then looking at the cross tab, you can see for the most part pretty stable from an upto-down standpoint, but some of them did become much become a bit more of a stronger driver. So those are things that you'll want to take a look at more closely. But there are a lot of things clustering over on that right hand side. So those are the ones that you'll want to pay the most attention to. Collaborative environment. So those scores did go up. Again, not a ton, but but by a little bit. And that's positive direction. And when I'm looking at those, bear with me as I'm looking at those. Every one of those went up. Only two went up in the rest. That's encouraging. just having trouble on my side seeing them. Oh, thank you. Okay, so we can see the city's uh welcoming attitude toward businesses. That one went up in particular. Um and then we also see the involvement of Burnsville Chamber of Commerce and the involvement experience. Those are all scores that that did go up quite a bit and are your highest scoring areas. one of your lowest scoring areas. Brinsville provided uh administrative and marketing support for businesses. Um that was one of your lowest scoring areas and that actually did go up a bit compared to last year more significantly. And then you can see the uh the impact that each of these have. So all of them are over in that right hand quadrant. So all of these are things that I would spend more time focusing on because these are going to give you more bang for the buck. City management scores again really strong. The things that uh were the strongest scoring is being well managed. Um having leaders who are trustworthy, the level of knowledge, uh level of fairness, ease of reaching the appropriate person. Those are all all high scoring areas. The area that was the lowest scoring is spending dollars wisely. Again, so that is something that, as I'd mentioned, that's often a communication challenge to uh to deal with. Looking at the scatter chart here, you can see that all of these are um above the line and to the right. So these are strategic strengths and doing more of them will continue to move the needle. Looking at your regulatory environment, um again pretty similar. We see a bit of a drop on the value of services that you receive for the local taxes that you pay. So that was that's one to pay attention to. It could be service levels. It could also be communication in terms of service levels. So, uh either one of those might be the driver. Things that are scoring pretty well are the ease of processes uh to request local licenses, the ease of processes to comply with regulatory issues, and the ease of processes to comply uh with required inspections. Um all did really well. And then again, you can see these are on the far right side and some of them are above the line, some of them are below. So, these are things that you'll want to take a a close look at. Your vision again, high scores as we saw with the residents. Um, things that were marked particularly high is welcoming to all um through community engagement that was particularly strong along with delivering highquality public services uh with respect to with respect for resources. areas that were a little bit softer is a vibrant city, boldly leading, welcoming to all. And then also on the far right hand side, effective communication um effectively communicating the uh vision and strategic priorities. And then we can see here most of these are on the right. These are things that are on the positive side above the line that are pulling the score up. couple of them that were a little bit low. Um 60 84 which is the effectively communicating the vision and strategic priorities. So that one's that that's fairly easy to address but that is one that you'll want to spend a little bit more time on. Then this one is looking at the regulations in terms of do they want them uh relaxed, do they want them tightened, or do they want to keep them about the same? You can look at each of these really as a pie chart. Uh so you can see the blue as reduce restrictions, that orange color being more increasing restrictions, and then leave it as it is in the gray area. Uh if you look down toward the bottom, you can see that there's a number that have much longer orange lines, almost 50% but not quite. And that's looking at the uh properties in disrepair. They a lot of folks would like to see that tightened up a bit more. And then the door-to-d dooror solicitation as well. And then, as I mentioned, we asked them what do they think a year from now, how are they going to be doing? And for the most part, they either said we're going to be growing or we're going to be the same. And so, they uh they're in a pretty stable place right now looking at potential future city services. So, we asked this last time as well. The demand for the city services is relaxed for the most part. Um the number one thing is the grants and loan information. So while it did go down, that continues to be an area that folks are interested in because there's a number of interesting opportunities that are popping out at the the state and the the federal level u that they just can't keep track of. They just know that there's things floating around. So there's opportunities. And then the other things that they're interested in, there's really three things that are kind of tied at about the same level. You've got the uh the workshops, uh the information on annual fee changes, and the um participating with the the city on promotion. Those are all things that have a a pretty strong level of support. Next slide. Again, just taking those and saying, do you want us to use tax dollars to accelerate improvements in each of these areas? And for the most part, they're not sure. Uh when we're talking about one-on-one meetings with development staff, the majority say yes. And when we're looking at the grants and loan information, we have about 43%. So a pretty strong percentage of folks uh interested in that. Not very many people saying no to it. But then when we're looking at the next one of participating uh with the city on cross promotion, uh a lot of folks who aren't sure. So if that's something that you want to do, spend a little bit more time talking about it and and educating folks on what could be possible. We asked them how they want to receive communications from the city. Mail, email, and the website. Those are the top three. >> Okay, that was the rocket tour through the data. At this point, I'll start communication >> pausing and answering any questions you might have, >> comments. Well, it's good to know that there's some consistency from 21 to 25 and that we're on target on the strategic initiatives. >> Yeah. >> And really by almost every measure, the city of Burnsville is doing not just marginally better, but significantly better than region, other cities, national I think that's the one of the biggest takeaways I have from this is >> having that comparison and showing that we really are excelling far better than our peer. >> You are and when we show the comparison >> consistent from 21 to 25 in all those categories, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So, and again, it doesn't happen accidentally. So, you've put systems in place, you've got the people in place for that to happen because there's other communities of similar size and similar geography that don't have that story to tell. >> Okay. Any other comments? Well, William, thank you so much for driving all the way here in the snow uh to make sure that we have we have you in person and um we appreciate the work that you do. I'm happy to do it and I will always be available. So like I said, our mission is research and education. So as you have questions, if you you want to hop on the phone and talk about stuff and dive into it, I'm Yeah, >> I'm happy to do that. So that's >> Well, we have some good information for us to look forward and and plan for the next four years before you come back. >> Yes, absolutely. and and mayor uh and council Mike has a couple of closing comments to that point and I I just express our team's gratitude for William. Uh he is he's very much help already helped the leadership team through thinking about what does our action what does our planning process really look like. a following measurement. It's important to me, it's important to our team uh that we engage with the community. We engage with stakeholders um and um use those conversations and this data to inform action planning to help us to be better uh and to better uh create experiences uh for our customers, for for our residents, for uh the business community. So, Mike has a has a couple of comments in that regard. >> Yeah. Before Mike gets there, I appreciate uh what you have um reported because one of the things is that um we know the the vehicles that our residents um have rated high and that is the bulletin and then also our parties on a plaza where we can engage with the community and they uh have one-on-one conversations with our staff. So we have a a good pathway forward for that kind of engagement. Mike, the floor is yours. >> Yeah. Thank you, Mayor and Council. So, as Greg mentioned, uh this is our survey work plan. The the intention of this is this is just the beginning of the conversation as we talk about the results um from from this round survey. So, measurement is where we're at right now. We've completed the survey. We're beginning to communicate the results. Tonight was kind of the first step for that. Um we'll begin communicating and and sharing these results with the community here very shortly. Um and then as Greg mentioned, we we dive right into our focus um which is seeking input and having conversations with stakeholders um which includes our community partners, community members as well as our teams here internally as we discuss and analyze and and kind of process these results. Um and then the hope from that or the goal from there is to identify some focus areas where we'll then um devise some action plan um and begin measuring measuring progress between now and the next four years. So um when we go back out and do another community survey in 2029 uh hopefully we see some measurable results. >> Yeah. William, I have one question because uh roads was uh uh one of the least and you said that uh you did the survey around April and May when all the cones started to go up. >> Yeah. Yes. And so and this has been a difficult year with all of the construction. So I don't know. I think we take all of those factors into consideration because I think our roads are very wellmaintained. And so to Mark and his team, >> thank you. From >> from an outsider perspective, I've come through a lot of communities and your roads are in in good shape compared to other communities that I' I've driven through, including my including my own, which I think they're just going to till up the roads and just turn them back to gravel. We might be better off. >> And a very quick note on that, you know, one of the interesting things is the residents come in, they want more stuff, but they don't necessarily want to pay for it. >> Yeah. And yet that's exactly what you're seeing in terms of it's a mindot project and a county project that are happening which I mean yes the county one's kind of through tax dollars but it's a great example of kind of the juxosition of we find ourselves with what people want and how we deliver services. >> Well they want the roads to be easy to d to drive on but the inconvenience is what drives their answer. So, but I think the actual um experience is what I'm going for. So, >> and the alternative is winter. So, >> okay. Thank you so much. >> My pleasure. >> And um to Greg and uh Mike and our team, thank you so much. We appreciate and are grateful for the work that you do in service to our community. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, moving on. Uh the next item is the horizontal infrastructure study and uh Mark uh this is yours and um if you would um introduce our guest who have written the uh the report. >> All right. Good evening, mayor, council members. Uh right here we have Amanda and Michelle from HDR. Uh they've put a lot of time into helping us work this horizontal infrastructure study uh and risk assessment. And I'm really proud of the work they've done, the conversations it's really helped our staff have in terms of how we um think about our system and the risks um and how we then work with you all to mitigate those risks. So with that, I'll turn it over. >> Yeah. Well, welcome ladies. Um, I thought I thought it was you you write very well and it really understandable a lot of technical words, but thank you for putting in parentheses what they mean and so forth because there were a lot of different types of um structures that we use. Oh, especially from the beginning of when the city was a township to today, the different materials that were used throughout. So, thank you so much. >> So, this is a complex topic, but uh very important to how the city operates and how your customers um and residents kind of perceive the work that you do. So, uh this study really came out of looking at all the um infrastructure associated with your public rideways. So this would be your roadway system, water utility, sewer utility and looking at kind of strategies around how to understand and assess what you have and also plan for the future replacement of those um in the best kind of scenarios from a cost perspective and um needs of the systems. So we worked with the public works staff um through a few workshops to really understand the existing data set that um surrounds these three asset types and uh wanted to hear the goals and the current programs in place with the city uh public works department and then um start looking at ways to understand the planning of the replacement planning of understanding the conditions of those assets and then priority prioritizing and eventually figuring out how to fund uh replacement and um renewal of those. So, what we're looking at with this um is understanding that there are those multiple needs within the right of way. Uh from a public perspective, we have the water system that connects all of the residences, sanitary sewer collection system, and then the roadway um system. And each of those have their own plan and their own fund, but understanding how they can work together and really um overlay with each other to know that you're making the informed decisions on your what we ended up calling kind of the overall horizontal infrastructure um of the city. So when we think about um how the city was developed uh there's often these kind of large influxes of development that occur. So the initial buildout and then an addition of a you know large tract of development and when that occurs uh if you look at your infrastructure that was built at that time all with the same materials and all the same construction methods uh it's anticipated that it would all become obsolete or uh need to be renewed at about the same time in the future. Now, we're talking 50 hundred years from the time that these things were built, but um we're getting to that age with the city that some of these systems are coming due and some have a shorter lifespan to need to be replaced or replaced more often. And so, what we're looking to do here is estimate the useful life of all of the three primary asset types. The gray is the pavement, red is the sanitary sewer system, and blue is the water system. And so based on when they were built, these are your assets. Um looking at when do we think they will basically become a need for replacement and um inevitably where that uh pavement needs to be replaced and the sewer and the water are not going to be on the same block. They're going to be spread out across the city and you're going to have these competing needs, competing interests, and it's going to feel like you're impacting multiple areas of the city to the residents. So, we're looking for strategies and methodologies to be able to um time up the replacements, make informed decisions about can we make it until the next mill and overlay, until the next road reconstruct to take care of that water or sewer pipe. Can you answer a question for me? Because one of the things in really understanding how the Met Council charges us. So you have a 246 miles of water system, but the discharge of sanitation uh is 201 miles. >> Yeah. >> Um >> yep. So >> is that >> so the water system um to be able to connect up all of the homes uh just takes uh more looping and more kind of connections to get the water to the same number of residences versus the pipes that take the water away from the homes. It might just be a shorter length we can kind of use. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's residents and businesses >> at 246 miles. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> Correct. Yep. All connections to the system, getting water to all of your customers, getting the water from all of your customers. Um, it's it's just the nature of how the systems are designed that often the length of water mane is greater than the length of the sewer pipe, right? It doesn't affect your kind of charges or anything. >> Okay. >> Yep. So when we talk about how we did the um assessment and looked at all of the assets, basically try to illustrate how understanding what you have and when it was built could lead you directly to how you want a strategy of how you want to replace it. So you could go from the far left to the far right and just understand that I built a pipe that had a hundred-year life. So in a hundred years I'm going to pay the for the replacement. But what these types of studies does and what public works has been developing um internally is understanding the maintenance actions that are occurring, the projects that are already scheduled. And then the gray box there in the middle is sort of what we added um to the um assessment and study looking at the condition of the water man of the sewer. taking the pavement management plan data and understanding how those all three blend into a risk score and understand that if a water mane needs to be replaced before um a roadway that can help drive your decision. And just any opportunity to add data into the chain of kind of how you go from knowing what you have to knowing when you need to replace it is is um how we term this asset management strategy. So within the individual asset types uh the way we calculate a risk is looking at the likelihood of failure and the consequence of failure. So uh the likelihood that an asset will fail or need to be replaced comes down to its pipe you know its actual characteristics of construction what is surrounding it. um how um how damage or uh wear and tear has occurred on that compared to its expected life and then looking at the failure data that the city collects to understand if it's close to having a future failure. On the consequence side, we want to understand what's the impact if that asset were to fail. Um, a lot of these are related to um safety, level of service, and then the financial cost of doing that repair. And when you're doing um risk scores, if you're needing to gather more information, you'd want to uh focus on that consequence of failure score and use a higher weight of those criteria and a lower uh weighting of the likelihood. What the city is looking at in this study since they already had a lot of um condition information about their assets was to target renewal planning investment um strategies. So then you increase the likelihood of failure um risk score and slightly lower the consequence score looking for an overall 100 score on a uh risk rating scale. So, after we know the risks of the pipes, how do we kind of get back to that first chart I showed of understanding um the costs or when they would need to be replaced? We look at um average unit costs both from a uh local level as well as regional and national um construction costs. We're taking the anticipated bid costs of what a contractor will charge you to replace those assets and then also making sure that we factor in planning, design, uh easements, all the other pieces that go along with projects that need to be planned for. So um we took um took the water and sewer based on those regional um bid uh analysis and then took the pavement management plan as the uh true source for the pavement unit costs. So we plotted um what the unit costs um trend data showed us in terms of based on the pipe diameter going across the bottom right. This is just for the water and sewer system. Based on pipe diameter, what is the unit cost to replace um or andor rehabilitate either the water or the sewer main? And we compared that to a very recent bid tab from uh the city on a sanitary sewer rehabilitation and it just showed we had a really good correlation between that regional data set. >> So put another way, mayor and council, we basically took the analysis and and verified it against the numbers we've actually seen here in this city and that was kind of how we did the check as we set up for this analysis. Yeah. So this button, >> right? >> Okay. So I'm actually the one that gets to build these fun models um for the water distribution and the sanitary system. So this is maybe some of your charts that you were talking about. Uh the system was basically initially built in the 1960s and um originally a cast iron pipe and then we kind of transitioned into ductal iron pipe. And this all tells us a little bit about our system and kind of what we can expect it to perform if we know the age and the material. The gray is the um concrete pipe which we'll get into as well. So this is that first box that we were kind of showing the process of the project. The failure data is the second thing that we uh like to look at and we do this for all types of utilities. We always look at the failure data because what has happened on our pipes previously can kind of tell us what we can expect in the future. The city has really good data. It went back to 1986. Um, and so we could kind of analyze that to see how many breaks we're actually having per year. And you can see the trend line is going up a little bit, but that's to be expected as the system ages. We we kind of expect the trend to go up a little bit. What we also do is we take that information and we benchmark it to regional and national um levels so that we can kind of understand how we're performing. We also plot this against our replacement rates. And so Burnsville is it's actually orange. Looks a little red up there, but it's an orange dot. Um so our replacement rate and our our break rate is actually lower. We're about like three times lower than the national standard. So we're doing really well there. Um 14.6 is the regional average. It's the green dot that's in the middle. And that is expected with the type of age of some of the systems that are surrounding us. If you can think of some of the areas are older than the 1960s pipe that we have in Burnsville. So, one thing we did kind of key in on when we had some of our national um experts look at the data was our pre-stressed concrete pipe. Um, these are our larger diameter pipes. Our break rate or your your break rate here in Burnsville is a little bit higher than the national average and that is very typical of when it was built. Um, the the concrete pipe was between 1960s and 1970s. And the design standards that we know of and as engineers, and you can jump in here if you want, but the design standards that we know of, those pipes are usually a thinner wall. And so we kind of expect that. So just something to key in on. We kind of noted that as our recommendations too to kind of watch that. There are some ways that we can um kind of look at that pipe to see more of what's going on with condition assessments. And one of our recommendations is actually targeted condition assessments of these particular pipes just to keep an eye on it. So that means if they are breaking, we're going to send that pipe segment away so we can kind of know what's going on. Is that a particular case of this one pipe or is it indicative of other pipes that are of the same time frame? So, we marry all that stuff together. Our asset inventory, which is all that information about the material and everything, our break rates, we marry that. That's what we consider likelihood of failure. So, is the pipe likely to fail? And we we bring that up to our consequence of failure, like Michelle said earlier. And consequence of failure, I like to think of it as like where the pipe is in the system. So if you think about it like is it under a road, is it deep, is it there's all these is under a building, those are the things that make it harder to dig up things like that. So we marry those two factors together in our in our models and we can produce kind of our water distribution system risk. for your question earlier when you were talking about why is the water distribution more pipe than the sanitary you can really see it on the map it's the looping that we have going on and so and our buckets are bigger too so this is the water and sorry it's hard to see but water system across um with our risk and we we produced a 7030 consequence of failure to likely put a failure um grouping we had some scenarios that we went over with this with the staff to kind of see how they felt about the system risk. And then we married it up with the unit costs that we kind of discussed earlier so that we can start to get these buckets. And this is our performance riskbased pipeline renewal budget. We start to put all this together on our big graph. The wave that you can see coming is because your system isn't old just yet. So like that's kind of coming. That's why you do these planning studies so that you can plan on how to um actually pay for the renewal of all that that's going to eventually need to be renewed. Near-term is our highest risk pipes which we were showing in red and orange earlier. And so those kind of become our five-year CIP type of buckets. This is a closeup of that those particular projects and where they kind of land in the system and our near-term and this is water distribution only right now. So this is kind of looking at it in a vacuum just right now. So we do the same exact process with the collection system. It's just we have a little bit of different data. So, same thing. Now, we're at the 200 miles for the collection system. And instead of that um cast iron pipe, we have clay pipe. Same same time frame around 1960s. And then that transitions out into PVC, which is the the orange and the more common pipe. You do also have four miles of force manes, which um are of interest always. >> Yeah. >> Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Um, just uh something that I learned from this this background and presentation that when you say the term pre-stressed concrete, >> it's not really telling the whole story of what that pipe is made of. It's not just concrete. I had no idea that there was >> wires, >> stressed coiled wires that are that have a lot of tension on them, a steel sleeve in between two layers of concrete, an outer mortar uh coating. I mean, that's a Yes. >> That's not just a concrete pipe like most people would perceive when they hear pre-stressed concrete. Oh, it's a special concrete mix, right? >> Right. >> Um, do you have that slide that shows what uh there's a cutaway that shows what the pipe is made of? I think that's >> on page six of the background. It's almost striking that that kind of pipe would ever burst. But I can understand when that pre-stress wire weakens or or breaks from corrosion, whatever. Then >> uh you know, but these are also underground. There's a lot of >> pressure, you know, being buried, right? So sometimes you look at this and go, how could that possibly ever blow out, right? Or have a have a breakage. >> And they break catastrophically. So they they they explode for the most part. There's Yeah. >> For the most part. >> Yep. Yep. >> Sanitary is easier by the way. So because it doesn't do that, there's no pressure. It doesn't blow out like that. >> Well, except for the force mans. >> Well, ex but yes, that's why I said yes, except for the force mans. Yeah. >> Instead of break data, we use the structural index from the CCTV. Another reason why um sanitary is easier uh to kind of analyze is because we can get eyes on the inside of the pipe much easier and the city has done a good job about getting CCTV and we use the CCTV data as our failure data. So us what we're doing here is structural index that's from one to five and essentially five would be kind of what we'd consider failure means there's a hole in the pipe or something of that nature. Um, and so we score that similar to what we were scoring the water break data. So I like to consider um our sanitary risk as a split model and that means that any pipes with CCTV, I'm using the CCTV information, those condition scores as much as possible. If we don't have CCTV on it, then I'm using age of material as kind of a proxy because there are pipes in the system that don't have the um CCTV information. Marry that up once again to the consequence of failure which will look very similar to your water distribution. It's still if it's under a road, the depth, buildings, things like that, proximity to water to get our total risk score. And so that's why the sanitary system has more green. We applied the 7030 still because we're trying to target our renewal. And um the bucket of money is money that we assess is basically lower because of the lining cost. You don't usually have to rehab sanitary sewer by digging them up. For the most part, we can line those for the most part. Mark, >> it's true. So essentially same idea we're trying to find our need of the curve which is basically where where we kind of where we're expecting our entire risk to come as as the system age come through where our near-term actions are going to be so that we can focus our budget our near-term budgets on that and then kind of in the 40 to 60 range those are our planning level what we're thinking about in the future just sanitary same thing in a vacuum near-term and uh next 5year CIP buckets and where those are in the system. And so you can kind of get the the idea. We're dealing with a lot of lines on the map all across, right? These neighborhoods don't don't usually line up perfectly. We take that and we're we also looked at the pavement management system, which a lot of really good um work had already been done on that. And you guys are getting three-year inspections and you using the pavement condition index to kind of score it similarly as the as the risk in water where you have critical, poor, good, kind of that kind of idea. And this is from the 2024 pavement management plan. We kind of took that as kind of a basis when we're trying to overlay everything. And so this is just reporting kind of what what was found in those in in that study and another view of it. Obviously the pavements are buffered a little bit wider, but you can kind of see different spots of the red and the green uh and the orange and and where the critical pavement is. Some of these I know are already in um they're currently being worked on. So you might recognize some of them if it's critical. It just it would be refreshed whenever that pavement is done. >> So that's a really good point. So our our cadence now with this we've talked about as a team is at the end of the year. So roughly December is where we'll go through and wrap and update all of our maps for pavement that's been done or for any projects because we talked about doing it when the project starts but the problem with that is the work isn't done. So it's actually not a reflection of our current status. And so by kind of saying, hey, let's focus at the end when the projects are wrapping up, it gave us a real clean line to reset every year to keep the uh information current to to inform, you know, really future years out, not the following year, but after that kind of decision- making. >> And the main thing that we were trying to get after was, okay, how do you take the water and the sanitary and the pavement and all these different areas? How do you intersect them? And sorry I talked talks with my hands too much. Um and basically our main focus was where those three systems kind of intersect. And so we kind of overlaid with a buffer the pavement to try to get these two buckets. So it was basically if the water and the sanitary system crossed the pavement we would kind of consider that a pavement pavement a project. If it wasn't, then it would be its own kind of utility project. And this chart um unfortunately is really tiny, but essentially it's the logic that we went through to kind of overlay the three systems to try to get these high priority to low priority um intersecting projects. >> And the way I think about that for all of you is really we have all this great analysis. Ultimately, it has to end up in a budget. And this is the way we bridge from the data to making it happen. I went too far. On the map, it kind of looks like this large chart with the highest um to to lower priority uh priority pavement projects is what we're calling it, but it's it's basically multi-utility projects. And you can kind of see how the the red and the orange look differently in this map as opposed to just looking at it with pavement and a vacuum. The 12 highest um risk projects are these ones that you can kind of see in the red. And we then start to put all of our costs to those projects. So that this is where we're starting to get to the budget and the results. Here's a better slide so that you can kind of see the an example project. So that's one of the higher priority critical pavement projects. And then the the lines that are intersecting are the water and the sewer and they're of higher risk. So they're those orange and those reds. And so it kind of like they stack on top of each other. And so essentially that's what we're trying to get out of the plan. So you can stack everything up. And this goes to, you know, essentially so that you can dig up an area once as opposed to multiple times >> and and that staff can understand that just because you're doing a mile of road, you might only do a half mile of water or sewer. So, it just gives them a better focus to understand how to group projects together, where to start and stop projects. >> Yeah. So, kind of boiling everything together on um the study, the pavement management plan was kind of our homework and study material before starting on the water and sewer and realizing that by looking first at where pavement is critical because it becomes due more often, it has to get intervened more often. Uh that's a valid strategy. It's uh very pertinent and and works well for doing these kinds of replacement planning. Um when water and sewer investment decisions need to be made, um it's sometimes hard to communicate how we as engineers came up with the priority or said it is time to do that uh water or sewer segment. This gives the criteria a lot of detail. um others can follow and realize that you're letting the data and the aspects of those assets drive the strategy for water and sewer. Um risk analysis kind of helps you defend your decisions and prove you're not um selecting locations for other reasons. And then as you get into the detailed capital projects, like I was saying, the one mile of roadway, but then deciding to do a half mile of one of the utilities, that's still this engineering judgment that we have to use as you plan a more detailed capital project, but it just gets you to the right spot. So thinking uh broader picture on kind of what we saw within the individual utility systems or individual horizontal asset systems, we came out with some other recommendations specific to each uh one is to continually invest operating dollars into data management and being able to have all of the break history, the pavement index scores, and your CCTV data was what really allowed kind of this planning process to occur. We want to complete those opportunistic condition assessments on kind of those higher risk um problematic pre-stressed concrete cylinder pipes which are your largest diameter and represent the highest risk um for valve exercising program on the water man side. This just enables um staff to have a a way to check that a project area can be isolated the year prior to that project. So, uh, we we've included that recommendation, um, to make sure that those projects can go off, um, without a hitch. And then for sanitary sewer lining, there's quite a bit of, um, rehabilitation with CIP liners that the city's already doing, and we recommended continuing that on those clay pipes. And then as you continue to look at CIP uh project planning, just keep updating this framework and this data set of all of your infrastructure to help make these decisions and set your budgets. With that, we'll take any questions. >> Any questions, comments? I think for staff, this is great information. as you said, Mark, that you know what we need to do and how we're going to accomplish it. >> And I'll take one step further, Mayor, and how we're going to operationalize that data so it stays current to continue to be how we make decisions moving forward. >> I I think as I I said, I think one of the the study's great, one of the other real benefits that has come out of this is creating a visual way of the way we've been thinking and approaching the projects that that creates that framework to sustain this into the future. And that's one of the things I'm most looking forward to uh with this. >> Yeah. Okay. Are we falling behind in getting the repair work that needs to be done because the recommendation I think you said was like five miles and we're only doing about one. >> Um so the way I would frame that more, mayor, is our goal is like for a water man system standpoint is to average 1% per year. >> Okay. But some years will be more and other years will be less. Um, looking at our sanitary sewer system, you know, we had a big year this year lining almost four miles of sanitary sewer. So I wouldn't ever look at it as a snapshot in time, but more quite frankly over that five-year CIP time frame. Um, and so obviously one of the followons here is an ITF study and that will kind of continue to walk down that path. >> Okay, you guys are on top of it. I'm good. So, thank you so much Mark and your team. >> Yeah, thanks the team >> and to the team from uh HDR. Thank you so much. We appreciate you and very grateful for the work that you do for us and thank you Mark. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, >> I'll take >> Okay. Thank you. And now we're moving on to the rental licensing program and our uh deputy community development director Travis Bisto is going to present. Travis, floor is yours. >> Thank you, madam mayor, council members. As you may recall from a work uh roundt discussion last winter, uh the council asked questions about how our rental licensing program is administered across the city and if there's a way we could uh somehow incentivize that program to encourage uh the good actors to continue doing what they're doing and spend more of our time on some of the more problem properties uh within the city. As you as you may recall, uh the multifamily uh rental inspection process and and program is really managed across two different departments. Both the fire department and neighborhood services play a role. Uh the fire department is managing and inspecting the common areas while neighborhood services is conducting inspections uh within the individual uh units. So, and and as a result, uh, Chief Jungman and I are going to be doing kind of a tag team presentation, uh, for you all tonight and happy to take questions, uh, as well. Um, just as a little bit of background, the purpose of our rental licensing program is to promote the health, safety, and welfare of the residents within Burnsville that live in those units, which is stated and memorialized in our our rental licensing ordinance. Um, as a result, we inspect and manage um a total we manage a total of 9,593 individual rental units across the city. We're inspecting uh and managing uh 80 complexes annually. And then we conduct or we uh manage 984 single family units and that includes 385 384 standalone uh single family uh houses. Mayor, members of the council, from a fire perspective, um we inspect the multif family units that have common areas and we inspect those annually. Uh as you can recall from the standards of cover and and many presentations over the years is multifamilies have been our largest life safety concern from a fire safety perspective based on the data and our experience. Uh we've also uh thanks to our our city attorney have used the consent decree process for those that have had major life safety violations and have not been compliant. Um I would tell you from a fire perspective, the industry best practice is to be in these facilities annually given the risk that they present and our history with them. And currently we charge $170 for an initial inspection per building. On the neighborhood services side of the equation, there is an annual rental license that is required from all of our rental uh uh licensed properties. Uh all of our uh multif family properties are inspected annually. Uh but we're only inspecting onethird of the units. So after three years, we've been in every single uh one of those units in a in a complex. Single family properties, however, are inspected at a once every three-year uh cadence as it's currently uh designed. And then I'll also just remind the council that um there were a couple of innovations that moved forward in 2024 which were uh we have in place now. Um there is an annual property manager license requirement and an annual training requirement that was implemented in 2024. And there were new fees that were established uh as well back uh a year ago uh for serious violations and escalating one additional step uh if uh those violations continue. And then just for frame of reference on the neighborhood services side, um our budget uh for neighborhood services and the rental inspections uh is projected to generate $580,000 in revenue in uh 2026. Uh and our three-year average neighborhood services expenses uh averages at 615 uh $615,000 per year. But I think it's important to remember that neighborhood services doesn't just do uh rental licensing inspections. They're also managing all of those property maintenance complaints that we receive on an in an annual basis. >> So this give us the opportunity to kind of take a look at the ordinance, see what's out there, look at other places. So looking at the incentive based approach, um staff would recommend if council were to desire this that we would still charge the annual fee um and not change the base fee structure and that um we would establish three categories of inspections. The highest being a grade A um fire or neighborhood services would still inspect them annually, but they would only get inspected every other year. So one year by fire, one year by neighborhood services. um they would move to a grade A after not having any uh life safety violations for two consecutive inspections. Um and then we would recommend reducing manager training to once every three years. We think that uh that training can be done every three years and still be effective. So this gives you an idea in a grid format. Um currently we're doing annual inspections in those common areas from the fire perspective. Neighborhood services is doing an annual inspection of a third of the units. If we were to move to a graduated style inspection, we would do bianual of the grade A in uh properties. So again, one year would be neighborhood services doing one-third of the units. One year be fire doing the common areas. If they had any life safety inspections, they would go to a or life safety violations, they would go to an annual inspection. Um, and then those cases where we have multiple life safety violations and and a lack of responsiveness, we would move them to a more frequent uh cadence as we're doing now with some of those properties that are not being well cared for. >> Uh, we do think that there needs to be a a safety valve in there. In our experience, the manager uh is is key to this. Um, unfortunately the manager doesn't always have the keys to and the abilities to do all the repairs, but they are generally the ones that are bringing up issues, noticing issues, and addressing issues. So, we would require or recommend requiring a self inspection within 30 days, filing an affidavit with us with that inspection report. And then we would we would recommend uh fire and neighborhood services do an annual inspection within six months. that lets them get past kind of that honeymoon period, lets them get in there because we've seen everything from a new manager coming in and firing all the maintenance staff and not have any maintenance staff to a new manager coming in and hiring new maintenance staff that's competent. And there's the whole range in between. And so if we give it a few months after the affidavit when they should know about all the property maintenance issues and life safety issues, we'll see if those are resolved by the time we go inspect it in a few months after. Uh, one gap we identified in our current ordinance is, uh, we generally inspect properties 90 days before their their renewal and we have places that don't have those violations repaired by the by the time their license expires, leaving us in a situation where we can't issue a new license because they have outstanding violations and we their old license has expired. Um, and the problem is now they don't have a license. And if we wanted to take adverse license action on them, uh, there's no license to take an adverse action on. So, we would suggest creating a provisional license and doubling the fee. So, their renewal would double and also not allow them to lease any vacant units or anything that becomes vacant during the period of the provisional license. um to make sure that we have a license status status. Uh one other emerging topic for us is assisting assisted living lensure. So when this was when the rental license was first established in the city 13 years ago, this current one uh statute did not allow us to to license assisted living facilities. Recent statutory changes allow municipalities to uh license seven or more units, facilities with seven or more units, which we have 10 of those facilities in the city. And um we have also seen that we've had an increasing unnecessary use of emergency services at these assisted living facilities. So they account for uh about 9% of our call volume and in particular lift assists are about 14% of our call volume at these assisted living facilities. Um with one facility this year alone already accounting for 47 lift assists. So >> wow. Um again we don't mind helping out when they need it but uh these are patients that should have an assessment done when they come into the assisted living and their lensure is supposed to uh or their assessment is supposed to figure out what the anticipated unanticipated needs of these patients are and they're supposed to uh make sure they staff for that and uh some of these facilities are not always doing that leaving them calling 911 to fill the void. And out of perspective, in 2020 we did 27 lift assists in our assisted living facilities and in 2024 we did 82. >> So if that gives you an idea context of where we're headed, >> um, and that's not with any new facilities, right? That's that's 10 facilities in 2020 and 10 facilities in 2025, 2024. >> Okay. Council member Gustiffson had >> on this assisted living. That's that's really kind of state territory. >> Yep. Do they require any employment? U >> yes staffing >> staffing based on us you know all those different things. >> So in my experience working with MDH very closely over the past year trying to resolve this. Um it's a very generic um requirement that says they must staff appropriately to care for the patients. It does not have a staffing it does not have a staffing requirement. And after filing multiple reports of this issue and filing plenty of reports and giving them the data, for instance, 31 of those lift assists are for a single patient um at that one facility. There's been zero action and frankly MDH's response to me is thanks for the information. if we ever decide to revoke their license, it's additional documentation and that's about the extent of the ability for them to enforce based on that. So yes, they are the they are the designated state agency licensing these facilities, but their ability in my experience in the past year is limited on what they can actually do. >> So they're using you and our staff to fill the gap of their shortage staffing shortage. >> In my experience, yes, that's what's happening. And again, are there situations where something might be awkward or a one-off? That's one thing. But when we see this repeated behavior to me suggests that they're not anticipating the patients needs and there's a misalignment there. So, um, so again, we haven't yielded any changes, uh, working with the state and, um, I would tell you I would from a staff perspective, we would recommend including facilities with seven or more that the state statute does not allow us to to require rental licenses for six or less units. So, what we traditionally think is group homes are off limits by state statute for locals. Uh, but we think we should include these require an annual fire inspection, but not a neighborhood services inspection. We haven't really run into livability concerns. The Department of Health does a good job of inspecting these facilities for those kinds of things. Uh, but we do think we should be in here for fire inspections. Uh, we had one of these facilities this year not have a working fire alarm panel and they were resorting to buying parts on eBay. So, >> oh boy. >> Um, I do think it's worth us getting in there and seeing those major fire protection systems since we do have high-risisk patients in there. So um and in order to make this work, we do think that we should also add an excessive service consumption uh part of the rental or ordinance. So we can't be more restrictive on the assisted living facilities than we are the rest of the rental licensing facility, rental facilities. And we think broadly we should put in the the ordinance that it prohibits uh lences from using an excessive amount of city services. And then that would allow the council to take any adverse license action if a rental license ee is consuming unreasonable amounts of city services. So from my perspective, if we were starting to get to those high numbers of unnecessary use, we could bring a case to you to determine whether you want to take adverse action or not. >> Okay. >> Yep. And I'll turn it back to Travis. And then in terms of uh next steps, uh following our discussion tonight, our our plans are to reach out to the um rental license community here in Burnsville and let them know what the proposed changes are and take any feedback and then we would bring some final ordinance changes to you um next summer in July. The idea there is that we wouldn't implement until July because neighborhood services had just started tracking our life safety violations separately. So we can use that as a metric to gauge how well the our program interventions are working when we make changes to the program going forward. So what we'd love to do is have one year's worth of kind of clean data before we make any changes, implement some of the changes that we're going to discuss here tonight and then evaluate the program going forward. And to that end, uh, we'd like to, um, you know, customize the program however we need to and then let it run for a couple of years so that we can come back and say what is working, what isn't working, how might we change this, and make it more effective going forward. >> And with that, I think Chief Jungman and I can take any questions. >> Uh, council member, >> this sounds a lot like our old uh, remember our star program we had for the apartments years ago. This one has teeth in it. the star program didn't have a lot of teeth and that's why we went to the changes we went to. >> Uh I do have a question. Do we >> do you have you identified how many buildings would be a buildings right from the start or are they going to have to earn that over the next year? >> So, uh Council Gersonson, the whole point of waiting until July for this would be we have one year worth of data. So, as we go do this next round of inspections, it would determine if they had no vi no life safety violations this year plus that next inspection, then they would move up to an A with two consecutive inspections without life safety violations. Um, so that we see a track record. It's not just a one-off. So, do you anticipate that maybe some of the bees might work harder to become an A, so they're only being inspected once every two years instead of every year? >> I would say that's the hope. I I don't know. I mean, it sounds like an incentive program to do things right. And >> right, that's our hope. >> Okay. >> Madame Mayor, council member, we have we did kind of workshop this at the staff level uh uh for a couple of weeks and we do believe that there's a small percentage of rental property owners that would be incentivized and move from that kind of current B-grade up to an A or maybe there's a very small population that are are from our perspective A's currently. So we we do think there are a number that would take advantage of this program. >> And then to clarify, we're just talking about four units plus buildings. We're not talking about the single family rental units right now. >> Mor council member, that is correct. Yep. >> Okay. Any other questions? Council member Keley. Well, it we've heard about this from Chief Jungman um over the last year and and it's really concerning that uh we have assisted living facilities which provide truly essential care for people in need, but they cannot get by being improperly staffed and rely on our paramedics and 911 to fulfill their obligations as a business. um with that call growth, where's it going to end? And when our paramedic staff is is out helping lift a patient, if there's other more serious calls coming in, the departments are already stressed. We don't need what would be considered a nuisance call that the business should be handling themselves, pulling these folks away from other more serious calls. >> I agree. Because what they're doing is they're uh using our staff to to manage their lack of lack of staff. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Okay. Anything else? So, what you have uh outlined then you're going to be doing and then you'll come back with the um with the ordinance, correct? >> Yeah. Perfect. >> If everybody's supportive, we'll we'll follow this. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yep. So everybody, there is consensus here to move forward. >> Okay. >> Thank you for the time and support. Appreciate it. >> Well, we're all here working together to make sure that we service our community, but at the same time, not to take advantage of our staff. Uh and uh it's not something new. We've been hearing about how um the assisted living are not staffed appropriately and they're using um our fire paramedics to do the work for them. >> I'm I'm really happy that as a as a full council for years, we've really been about safe housing for people and >> yeah, >> their living conditions and that and I think we've proved that out throughout the years and >> so thank you for continuing to work on this and improve it. >> Yeah. And truly, we're appreciative and and also grateful for the work that you all do and for our fire paramedic team for the work that they do for life safety issues in our community. >> Okay. Thank you so much, >> Madame Mayor Council. I just want to make sure I shout out it's it's a collaboration between neighborhood services, >> fire, city attorney. It takes a whole team to make this happen and we appreciate the support to have the tools to be able to do these things to make it safe housing because we do find that very important. So again, thanks for that and I know not every staff and every city gets that level of support. So thank you. >> If we don't work together, then we're not going to achieve the outcomes that we're looking for. So good. >> And I I just want to comment. I really like this proposal. Um, in addition to that, I mean, the the incentive the >> Yeah, >> as I've commented in the past, I I felt the penalties for u violators wasn't stiff enough and we were putting too much burden on those who were outstanding performers that were getting um, you know, reoccurrent inspections but were always coming up in great shape and that becomes a nuisance over time to a good performing business. Yet we need to spend more time with the problem >> performers >> and and penalize them for all the time that we have to spend. >> Yeah. >> And which means that the rest of us all pay for that poor performer. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Okay. Very good. Thank you so much. >> Next item. Uh this is our zoning code and um Mike Morosula, our planning manager, is presenting. Mike, the floor is yours. Thank you, mayor. Good evening, mayor and councel. So, the city zoning code has been amended numerous times since his adoption with some of the sections dating back to the 1980s. Um, kind of fitting after the last conversation. Um, so in 2021, um, staff initiated a kickoff to update the zoning code. Um, however, was due it was paused due to depart departmental um, restructuring. Some of the code sections, like I said, date back to the 80s and and some other areas are outdated. It is not very user friendly and there's a lot of um cross references. So staff has recently um started this process over again. Um the goals of this update are to improve organization and consolidation, enhance usability, modernize and use plain language, and updates to bring the code into compliance with current laws. staff is propos one big part of this um update is to reorganize the current code. >> Staff is preso proposing to go from 31 main chapters to 14. >> I love that. >> Yep. >> Oh my gosh. Be easier for everybody to navigate. >> That is the hope. And those 14 main chapters um can be reduced into five main categories um which includes um introductory provisions, administration or six I should say main categories, definitions, zoning districts, general zoning provisions and special zoning provisions. This is also going to help us to undo the weave of navigating from section section to section as we'll talk about further here in a minute. We're also proposing to delete subsections that are out ofd and unnecessary. Relocation of sections from the zoning code to other appropriate city code sections such as some items in our code currently reference right away. I think those should probably live in the um rightway area. So, as part of this project, um staff has completely rewritten section 101 and section 102 um to bring it into compliance with current standards as a lot of this um information providing those sections is outdated. We are also proposing to update the definitions for allowed uses and simplify um to clarify and show what's allowed in each district within your handouts or within your packets. Uh we did provide an example of that one. Attachment A would show that. Um we're also working to reduce cross references. The format and numbering will be streamlined for easier reading and navigation consistent throughout the code. So, here's a perfect example. Within your packets, attachment B, um there's an example that states that an adult daycare would wish to locate within the B3 zoning district. Um when you go to the B3 zoning district currently, it uh has a list a number of uses in there. Um I think there's probably like 20 of them. And then it also states that it allows uses within the B1 and B2 district. Adult daycares are not permitted in the B2. So after you read through the 40 uses there, you got to go to the B1 where there's an additional 12 permitted uses and that's where adult daycarees live and then you got to go back to the B1. So we're stopping that. Good. >> That is the number one thing. So we're going to reclassify um the uses in all these chapters um to simplify them to current days terms. Um, so instead of having 70ome uses permitted in the B3, we're going to narrow that down to maybe like 20 that are in current terminology such as retail uses equals grocery stores, um, pet food stores. That'll all be combined into just retail. And there's an example within your packets in attachment C that shows how we're going to reclassify those 77 uses into broader categories. So here's a proposed um zoning district layout. The this example on the screen is for the B3 general business district and all zoning districts will be very similar to this. The first off will have a purpose statement. What's the intent of the district and then the permitted uses which will be narrowed down into the categories that are easily to um easy to identify and interpret and discuss with the public and staff. Um then we'll also have our accessory uses, conditional uses, and then we'll have one other category that's not on here. Um your divisional um the development standards will be included as well. So I like to call this the one-stop shop. So everything's in one spot. You don't need to go to other code sections and it will reference if you need additional standards, there will be a reference to those in these sections. Um this is our proposed process. As um council is aware, we are just about to start off the comprehensive plan process. System statements have came out and we are reviewing those. Um so what now we're proposing to do is just reorganize and update some sections. Um as part of the 2050 comprehensive plan process, we will have to amend the code to bring in compliance with that um update to the comprehensive plan. Because of that, we are proposing to do a complete overhaul or comprehensive zoning code revision once we are done with the comprehensive plan, which is also helpful too because we'll also be doing the community visioning at the same time. Both those documents will feed into the zoning code and we'll require updates as part of that. So, this time we're doing reorganization. Um, we'll talk about schedule here in a minute. Also, next year we'll probably do um a major lift and redo the zoning or excuse me, the subdivision code as part of our work plan for next year. So, going forward, um today we're here doing the work session talking about the zoning code update. On December 8th, we'll do this very similar presentation to the planning commission. January 12th, um we will talk about um red lines at the planning commission, go through our over our updates, and then we'll do a final one on January 26, which will be an overview of our complete um amendment to it, and then bring this back before the city council on the February 17th for adoption. Uh that's it for my presentation. That was really quick. Um, if you have any questions, I'm here for >> any questions, comments. >> A quick one. >> Yes. >> Um, I like what you're doing. I like the fact that we're going to delay this a little bit while we do the comp plan because, you know, we started, as you said, we started this years ago. We had the community in first, our citizens, and we're going to go to planning. Uh but what I want to know is going forward, let's say there is a PUD somewhere, will they be able to retain the underlying zoning and so they don't have to come back to us to build something in the underlying zoning because we've we've experienced that with the mall was one of them where that happened to us with the zoo and I know others have had to come back to us. their underlying zoning would take it, but they had a PUD and so under the PUD, they had to come to back to us again for a change. And I've always thought that, okay, again, the PUD, but don't take away the underlying zoning from them in case things change and they want to change to something that's already permitted in that area. Anyways, >> yeah. >> Uh, council, that's a great question. I actually was discussing this with our city attorney today. We are trying to look for an option of how to undo those PUDs that list specific uses and allow them the ability to use the underlying zoning code and not be just lack of better word pigeon hold in that one use and allow them the ability to utilize those other zoning district standards. Um we're trying to figure that out because there's a lot of them. >> It's all of them. a lot. >> Well, Burnsville has been very businessfriendly and very flexible in how we uh approved all of those >> businesses. >> Yep. And uh at this time we are trying to figure out how to do that because we ran into it on another case that's coming forward here, the Costco gas station relocation. Um there's like three PUDs there. >> So we're trying to unweave that >> currently one which brought up the Commerce Tampa is another one. Great example. So, we're trying to figure out a way that we can include language that would still keep the intent of those PUDs, like the flexibility granted, >> but allow the underlying uses so we don't have to amend them every other time. So, it would be a big benefit for the business and the property owners in the community not to have to come in here to amend it. >> Yeah. >> Yep. Exactly. >> So, you you're untangling. >> We're trying. We haven't Jared and I, our city attorney have not quite figured it out yet, but we're trying to figure out a way because we do spend a lot of time unwaving these previous approvals, especially with the >> PUDS >> because there's a lot of them and um sometimes they overlap and there's not a clear path forward because they are generally adopted via ordinance. >> A lot of other communities, they're adopted via resolution, so they're easy to revoke. But here, since it's a zoning matter, it's a little bit more >> Yeah. >> involved. So, we're trying to figure that out. >> Glad to hear you're working on that. >> Well, that's good. Any other comments or questions from >> Glad we're cleaning up. >> I think we're moving in the right direction. And I like that you're uh modernizing the language and you're reducing the number of um categories. Wonderful. I think the developers and the businesses would really like that a lot. easy to understand and navigate. >> Okay. >> Business friendly. The current code might not really be the friendliest. It will be under this new model. >> Yeah. >> Yep. That is correct. Um, council member Keley and we're also as part of this um this would also reduce the number of PUDs too, especially use PUDS because right now the code is so specific on the uses they it doesn't fit that definition. We have to find another mechanism. So that's why if we go broad and say retail, well then you can fit into that. We don't have to be so >> specific in the approvals. >> Good. Okay. Council, any objections or here's the timeline? We're all good. Okay. I'm >> seeing nodding of head. So that Yeah. Okay. >> It's unanimous. Thank you so much. Really appreciate all the work that you all are doing. Um yeah, this is this is a big job because you're going back to when to the 60s. >> Yeah. >> And um modernizing the whole thing. And I like that. Um we're coming up to a comp plan and then we have the visioning process and then you're going to um work on the uh the zoning code. So now then we have everything all together. >> There's a lot of visioning that goes into like you said those documents once a visioning document but also those will feed right into the zoning code and we want to use that feedback that we receive and incorporate that into the zoning code. >> Yeah. >> So >> because you need to h have that filed with the comprehensive plan that zoning code revision. Okay. Anything else? All right. Thank you so much. Grateful for the work that you all do and we appreciate you. Thank you so much. Okay. Um, roundt reports. Vince, >> I have nothing. Experience Burnsville was supposed to meet next week, but that meeting has been cancelled till January. >> Uh, okay. Cara, >> January. Nothing. >> Nothing. Okay. Uh, I have nothing to report. Uh, >> wow. We got all five of us with nothing. Clearly, I have nothing to report. >> Actually, what time does the Packer game start? >> It's already started. >> I actually I have a few things I want to >> Oh, yeah. Wait a minute. Come to think of it, the Packers opening drive >> is probably going to turn out to be a three-point >> field goal. So uh if there is nothing else to come before us this evening, we stand adjourned by acclamation. Good night everyone and thank you for being with us.