good evening I am calling the Monday September 16th 2024 parks and Natural Resources Commission meeting to order at 6:30 p.m. tonight's parks and Natural Resources Commission meeting will be held in person and virtually um by using Zoom as chair I will lead the parks and natural resources meeting and the public is welcomed to participate when invited throughout the meeting members of the public May attend the meeting in person or join via Zoom If you experience any audio problems we suggest leaving the meeting and then rejoining that usually fixes the problem additional instructions on how to participate are posted online at Burnsville mn.gov in the public meeting calendar as usual tonight's meeting is available for viewing on bctv and the city's website if you are unable to participate and would like to submit testimony I encourage you to email your comments or questions to City staff or mail them directly to City Hall you may also call in at 651 372 8299 for each public hearing I will open up a time when callers may speak to that item and give more instructions at that time your call will be muted until then please note there may be a slight delay due to differences and Technology if speaking by phone please meet your computer since there may be a delay on to tonight's agenda um the first item tonight is the adoption of the agenda do any members of the commission have any changes um staff are there any changes to tonight's agenda nothing from staff I have a motion to adopt tonight's agenda I'll move and a second second all in favor please say I I I anybody opposed perfect that motion passes um we are now on to the second item approval of the May 6th 2024 parks and Natural Resources Commission meeting minutes commissioner any changes to those meeting minutes um staff any changes nothing from staff all right U may I have a motion to approve so move a second second all in favor I anybody opposed and that motion passes um are there any members of the public on Zoom or telephone that wish to speak I'm seeing none all right perfect let's move on to our public hearing um for tonight's public hearing we have Logan vasty um a city engineer that is here to present on our storm sewer system permit welcome thank you chair and Commissioners uh excellent job pronouncing my last name thank you Logan vacity city engineer I've been with the city a little over 2 and a half years now so uh recently earlier this year I was promoted to city engineer so this my first time doing the very difficult task of introducing Emily Jennings with SE who will be leading our presentation on our annual uh ms4 presentation so thank you uh good evening Commissioners thanks for having me back to present on the cities um we're calling this the 2024 ms4 annual meeting um so some of you may have seen this presentation in the past but um I always like to start with an overview um the ms4 program is there's quite a few acronyms associated with it so um forgive me if I rattle off an acronym you don't know what it means feel free to interrupt and ask but um some important ones just right up front um npdes stands for National plut and discharge elimin a system it is the program kind of the federal program that mandates the ms4 program at the local level ms4 stands for a municipal separate storm sewer system means the city owns and operates a storm sewer system um we're going to kind of hit on those two items talk about the status of compliance and then focus on the updates to the E service and kind of what is the future of this program um so to talk a little bit about the npdes program um it was established with a clean water act like I mentioned it is a federal program um with the US Environmental Protection Agency but the administration is handled uh locally um at the state level so we answer to the Minnesota Pollution Control agency here in Minnesota the city of Burnsville is a phase 2 small ms4 um and they have been since 2006 or earlier I'd have to look back at that probably earlier um but what that means Phase 2 small ms4 you have General permit coverage um the same permit coverage that many of your neighbors also share so it's a it's a general permit um and then here's a graphic this is uh from the npca website it just kind of shows what is an ms4 um like I mentioned it's a it's a separate storm swer system but it also kind of takes into consideration construction activities and our Lawns um and how these things kind of all come together and impact our receiving Waters um so the ms4 permit itself um it requires the city of Burnsville to have a storm water pollution prevention plan or what we call a Swip um and your Swip is made up of minimum control measures or mcms um and there is a component of it um a smaller component but I like to point out there are waste load allocations that are part of total maximum daily load so all these things kind of focused on water quality um next we're going to go through there are six minimum control measures we're going to highlight each one um talking mainly about the 2023 calendar year here um the ms4 permit does require annual assessment and annual reporting it's always based on the previous calendar year so talking about 2023 today U minimum control measure one is public education and Outreach um the city of Burnsville utilizes several methods for providing educational materials to the public and um reaching out including newsletters press releases presentations events trainings um websites and social media minimum control measure 2 is public participation and involvement um the that is the whole purpose of today's meeting to kind of get the public involved and solicit their input on the city storm water program um so the previous meeting was held in 2023 April 17th of 23 and again that was kind of talking about that 2022 calendar year um today we have the 2024 annual meeting talking about the 23 calendar year um there also is a spot online to accept uh comments year round um so here we have a Graphic maybe it' be nice if we had a link to that um but I think that is highlighted a little bit later on in the presentation minimum control measure three is elicit discharge detection and elimination so per this minimum control measure within the city's storm water plan um require you to inspect outfalls and priority areas um and also maintain a way for the public to report elicit discharges so there's an elicit discharge hotline and online form elicit discharges anything other than storm water that enters our storm SE system and kind of makes its way onto the receiving Waters there was one elicit discharge reported in 2023 um and the Minnesota duty officer was contact because of that uh minimum control measure four construction site runoff control so this minimum control measure kind of focuses on those active construction sites within the city um and what can be done to make sure that um potentially polluted uh runoff is not reaching those receiving Waters um so there were 20 active construction sites in 2023 that were greater than 1 acre in size um they are required these construction sites to have erosion and sediment controls in place during construction and the city does inspect they completed 227 inspections in 2023 and they issued 84 notice of failures or other partial violations 84 might look like a lot um but it's really proactive making sure that that these uh deficiencies are being identified to the contractors before anything you know quote unquote bad happens um so it's good that the city crews are noticing these things and making people aware of them minimum control measure five is post construction runoff control um the city of Burnsville requires that development um within the City match predevelopment runoff rates um and follow minimal impact design standards for storm water management meaning that if someone were to come in and do a new development or Redevelopment they have to um improve or match kind of what the current storm water condition is on their site um they ensure this through completing reviews there were four private development sites that were reviewed and issued permits in 2023 minimum control measure six is pollution prevention and Good Housekeeping for municipal operations um there's there's a handful component this minimum control measure it's essentially uh making sure that the city operations themselves are also being good stewards of the environment um and a big component of this is completing inspections checking out the city's infrastructure so in 2023 there were 120 sumps um 136 outfalls and 57 ponds that were inspected kind of things they look forward during inspections are erosion um or sedimentation elicit discharges kind of other instabilities that might to failure those kind of things so it's good to get those inspections in so just a note on compliance so the 2023 annual meeting like I mentioned was in April of last year there were no comments um therefore no changes were made to the city Swip um the city is continued continues to be required to complete an annual review and self assessment of their compliance with the ms4 program um where it gets a little um and I'll get into to this on the next slide where it gets a little difficult is or not difficult but just um notable right now is there that we actually have not submitted an annual report for a few years and I'll I'll get into that on the next slide um but this annual review and self assessment is important because the npca does audit um you know everyone should be prepared for an audit at at any time really um so looking forward I have the first bullet point here is future use of e service in 2025 question mark um the npca hasn't released any updates on their e service but um like I mentioned there hasn't been an annual report submitted in a few years um and that's because the you know the MPC is transitioning to this eservice which is not yet made available um so we kind of had hoped or had initially thought it might be available this year and it doesn't sound like that had happened um so there's a few years of data just kind of waiting um and um the npca has mentioned that they would possibly issue a combined annual report when that e service is available um so that may or may not be happening um but that's kind you know it's uh in the meantime the city continues to operate under their permit as they know it um and just keep the documentation up and and so when the time does come to submit the information you know they'll be ready um and as crazy as this sounds the current ms4 permit does expire November 15th of 2025 so while it seems like um the last permit was just just issued in 2020 um there is sort of a len lengthy process from permit being issued to the city obtaining coverage under the new permit um so it feels like we just kind of caught up um a couple years ago or just last year we were talking about um some new development standards and those kind of things and now we're already talking about this permit being reissued again so it's a never ending cycle um as part of a annual meeting um there is a public hearing for verbal comments to solicit input from the public um like I mentioned there's also an online comment form looks like I got the address here Burnsville minnesota.gov Swip so we can open up the I think we still have to do it but I think you're correct Madam chair I think you have to formally open up a public hearing and then uh judging from the audience you can go ahead and close that um oh my gosh I just totally got lost good evening everybody um any questions or comments I have a question yeah so um is is part of is part of this the like ponds that kind of hold rainwater from runoff yes so develop ments or redevelopments or even City infrastructure required to sort of capture and treat their storm water um that's what we see and there there are natural ponds too but you know I'm talking mostly about constructed ponds and those constructed ponds uh are part of an ms4 system while they're not like actual storm sewer themselves they convey water from and to the city's infrastructure so they are part of the ms4 okay and with the those be considered temporary so once the construction is completed would they fill those in or once everything is attached to this storm sewer system would they be filled in sometimes there are temporary ponds there they can they can be required or sometimes they're just necessary based on the nature of the site um often times I see a temporary Pond becomes a permanent Pond um but but occasionally it's only needed for a short duration of time so it could be temporary but um um and another question you mentioned an outfall yes an outfall is uh anywhere where your ms4 system leaves the jurisdiction so um an outfall could be uh a structural item like a FLIR end section you know the end of our storm SE system that kind of flows out to the the River or the lake um or it really could just be like a point source um where the you know it leaves the jurisdiction of the city of burns could be a ditch the end of a ditch or something like that but often times we're used to they're we're used to them being like structural FLIR end sections or something like that okay thank you aside from construction what constitutes an elicit discharge anything that is not storm water so um we shouldn't be like some frequent examples I can have is uh when we mow our grass and it gets into the curb line technically that's all as a discharge right we don't want those grass clippings in our storm service system and in our receiving Waters um often times are accidental maybe you have a dumpster that's not properly sealed and kind of garbage is like leeching out um sometimes we have um during construction activities maybe like a hydraulic hose or something will accidentally break on a piece of equipment and it you know those things all have potential to be an elicit discharge um hopefully you can kind of capture and contain that before it reaches the system or the receiving water but really we don't want anything in our receiving Waters other than storm water what is the most common um illicit discharge that is found with construction sites oo I mean I suppose I mean my answer would be sedimentation right like you don't have your a properly stabilized site and then you see a lot of dirt and stuff kind of wash away and you know onward um um but I guess I don't know I haven't seen any statistics on if that's the most common but I bet it's I bet it's pretty high up there right so it's important that our construction sites have those perimeter controls and um are also working to get the site stabilized when they're not actively working so we don't see wash outs or um dirty runoff water anything like that what's the danger of having that dirty runoff water um so the sediment itself um is not great for you know the ecosystem um it it can have a negative effect on the Aquatic Life and it can also just have a negative effect on the water quality um which in turn can affect the Aquatic Life plants animals those kind of things um it's also you know they it can be it's more sometimes than just dirt it can be it can have other pollutants dissolve pollutants in there phosphorus you know excess nutrients those kind of things and they all kind of change the water B's you know quality in general um what about for example in the fall with leaves yeah I mean I know the city makes some efforts to do some street sweeping and other thing like any excess nutrients you don't want them in your water bodies the the the organic material like that can kind of break down and again it it gives you these excess nutrients and Waters which you know algae and stuff can grow based on that um you be you know we have to be you have to be reasonable right like you're not going to get every leaf or you know anything like that but but yeah that can have a negative impact on on a receiving water is it ever up to like a homeowner that lives in front of a seore drain um I don't believe that would be up to the homeowner I guess unless it was like a really large tree canop I I don't think so but I will say um I don't know if the city participates in the adopted drain program but check it out sometime or encourage the public to check it out um you could adopt your local catch Basin in front of your house and clean it up a few times a year and you know every little bit counts um as far as the actual responsibility though no I'd probably have to ask others at the city yeah I'm curious cuz in my neighborhood it's very heavily tree canopied and there are so many leaves and the one in front of my house I get out there with my shovel and my rake and try to clean it out as much you should look up the adopted drain it's kind of fun you get to like choose your catch Basin and name it and then you get your report when you clean up and you know get give yourself a bat on the back cleaned out your catch do you happen to know what the bodies of water Health were before this was implemented um good question the the water bodies all have um um there's there's a lot of data that exists um for water quality standards and unfortunately in Minnesota there are there are quite a few impaired water bodies when they actually um were listed as impaired no and how that compares to the ms4 program no I don't have that specific uh data um I do think it's something that is being looked at though right like since the ms4 programs been in place and earlier I mentioned um Wast load allocations as part of TMD studies tmdl studies are specific studies on bodies of water of what do we have to do to get it unimpaired sort of thing so I think that's something that like we've seen a lot of change in the past several years and with a focus on water quality well how is it working and what do we need to continue to change to make it happen or you know what what do we need to revisit the drawing board on have the uh have the efforts or are the H is there a way to tie our efforts to regreen SP spaces so I know we've had conversations about say for example at um is it Burnsville Plaza is that the name of um anyway the big shopping center that almost nobody's in and and tearing up that you know tearing up the asphalt and converting some of that into green spaces does does all of th do all of those efforts tie into this or is there a way to tie all of those to this yes um like I had mentioned there's this minimum control measure five called post construction stor mod runoff control and so while minimum control measure four focuses on active construction five focuses on after construction's done um so there are requirements in there um the city's development standards for storm water specifically focus on you have to treat so much of your site and to to a certain water quality to be allowed to even start the construction process um so when you regreen spaces you sort of I mean you I don't want to say you make it easier on yourself but you're kind of hitting some of those requirements as you go you know anyone can build whatever they want but they have to be able to meet those storm water requirements and that's where you kind of run into a challenge right like you you can't pave everything because you you would never you know be able to meet th those certain requirements so there's incent right like not only is it easier for your development if you add some green spaces and those kind of things but um you know it's also just it's it's better for the receiving Waters and those kind of things so I'm I'm also wondering about the efforts of the city to um encourage native plantings and you know getting rid of just grass and going back to more naturalized areas and how that you know are are there ways to encourage that and and tie that to what you know you're trying to accomplish if you will um yeah native plantings are great um there's not a specific requirement on what type of like pervious surface um there is so that's you know there's no necessarily requirement you have to have native versus a turf grass or something like that right um so that is I think a little bit too specific for what the permit requires um but I will put in a plug the city themselves um has to meet all their own requirements as an ms4 so you know the city is also doing all these things with um their road projects or their kind of other maintenance work that's done sure I guess what I'm trying to do is connect all the dots so you know you've got the plantings area we got you what you're doing we've got the other encouragements that are within the city you know to try to again how do we connect all of these dots in a way that kind of presents a cohesive plan that the city is focused on this picture not just this these individual pictures does does that make sense yeah I mean right we don't want to do it in a vacuum because unfortunately just doesn't work that way right do you happen to know what qualifies a body of water to be impaired that this would be used on yeah there's all different kind of things so um really um I think there's all different standards um Mercury for example a lot of water bodies are imp prepared for mercury but that's not something that we can like grasp our hands on and change unfortunately um there are other ones like um total suspended solids we call them TSS that's actual like sediment in the water column um so that's like we try to control things like construction sites where you have those loose sediments kind of washing into water um if we can kind of control that and and normalize that then hopefully we can help remove some of those that suspended solids um in the water body there's a lot of nutrient-based ones um and these are kind of things all within the water but then there's like our um our fish in our water bodies sometimes we can get different excess nutrients and fish tissues I mean I don't know all of them off the top of my head but there's certain limits out there that's that are set by um npca or or even farther up the chain and they say hey when you sample and when you go out there if this exceeds a certain limit it's considered impaired I have one more question so I think there are some ponds in neighborhoods that are like connected by I don't know the ter proper terms for these things but those big cement Tunnels for for the water to drain to each other um when sometimes those get full I think the pounds are kind of I don't know scooped out to get the debris out or something I know that happened in my neighborhood sure then is there a way or or is someone already doing this where they go back in and then see what the differen is in the water but also in the wildlife that's [Music] there I speak to that because there's actually a the city is actually participating in a study with oh is with the University of Minnesota and I believe one of the research boards through mot to do exactly that so so we've been doing a pond cleanout project every year for at least a decade I'd say um and we're we're going to start studying exactly how effective that is and not we but University of Minnesota and some other cities are participating as well to to start to study that okay specific impact so yeah it's it's an interesting question because it's something that people in the industry are are wanting to see the data on as well so there's there's plenty of uh reason to believe it's it's highly effective but we're going to be one of the first actual study participants So Co than speaking to to data um can you speak to any of the trends or the findings that came out of the last report I know that um it will likely be like a couple year annual report coming up or multi-year report coming up so I'm curious to know what have folks found in the past regarding the like the the annual report for the ms4 so the the the annual report data that's that has been required to be submitted prior to um the last one that was submitted before the East service was he was submitted in June 30 by June 30th of 2022 and that was on the 2021 calendar year the questions that they asked for the 2021 and and the several years prior were very we're all the same so um the kind of data that we submitted are kind of some of those things that I highlighted on each slide it's essentially like asking for documentation of what has happened in the city that the ms4 permit cares about um for minimum control measure one they say okay you handed out brochures well how many brochures did you hand out and who was your intended audience um for minimum control measure to they say did you have a meeting what day was it how many people attended um they ask did you have an elicit discharge if you did tell us about it um how many construction sites how many sites did you review how many inspections did you do so it's just sort of like um a a way for them to make sure you're doing all your documentation you're doing what we're asking you to do um and you know submit it all in one spot the questions probably well certainly really should be Revisited because the permit has Chang changed since um since the kind of the youth service thing has started so what exactly they're going to ask for in the future it's hard to say um I have a feeling though it's going to get more in depth um they're going to be looking for more specific data um more information but the the trends are are really it's just a matter of are you compliant or not um they're they're searching for the information yeah so I I I hope that answered your question well I'm yes and I'm curious to know you know like what trends are like which strategies are mcms are like most effective um I'm curious about that aspect about where we can lean into sure um I think you know the permit you're the city is required to have the permit um they're required for all all strategies to be effective right like right compliance is the goal it's also a requirement I mean frankly right like there's not a lot of um you have to do it as a as a permite um so I think you know where things have been very effective uh the city's got a great um public education and outreach program lots of tools and things available for the public to get involved and to learn about stuff um and they've got a really nice mature program for managing construction sites and managing proposed devel velopment um and a nice crew to help with those inspections so while I'm sure they would love for additional resources I would say that the city's doing doing a good job on their program any other questions um is there anyone on the telephone or Zoom that wishes to speak um Madam chair there is no one on Zoom I totally missed the public hearing I apologize I'm glad no one was waiting to speak and angry with me for being on a turn well thank you very much yes thank you all right um our next agenda item is just miscellanous topics on September 28th at 9: uh from 9:00 to noon there's a recycling and shredding event at the maintenance facility our next meeting is chair woman can I interrupt for one second we I believe we do need to open and hold the public hearing and then close it oh let's open the public hearing and then anybody wishes to speak and now we close the public hearing got your need yes very good you I apologize um our next meeting is October 7th 2024 um and our Park there's a park visioning open house on October 2nd at City Hall and a Fire Department open house on October 10th at FS or Fire Station 1 chairwoman uh Commissioners all of you were invited to attend a park design uh event that happened today um we had our Consultants uh inhouse here um they went through 26 of our 76 parks and uh we've been working on a vision for each of those 26 Parks uh on October 2nd they will have those rough draft designs uh ready so I would encourage all of you and all the public to attend either the open house on the 2 we will also have those available at the Fire Department open house on the 10th so please come out we are looking for feedback and input on those Park Designs um from from from all of you and the public amazing um anything else from staff before we end nothing from staff all right um at this time I would like to request a call for adjournment of the of tonight's parks and Natural Resources Commission meeting um do we have a motion to adjourn so moved H second second all in favor say I anybody opposed all right well you everyone have a wonderful evening and enjoy this beautiful weather outside