[Music] we'll call the city council work session to order for Monday June 3rd 2024 uh unless there's any changes to the agenda we look for a motion to approve the agenda motion to approve second motion by Steve second by Holly all in favor say I I I all right item 31 is the alternative Urban areawide review uh at the known as AAR and data center overview informational session Dian thank you mayor and council tonight is about sharing information and making sure that the council has an opportunity to have a dialogue to truly understand what an AAR is also what an AAR isn't and then we also have invited an expert to come in and talk to us about what data centers are and why they're looking at Minnesota we feel like this is very timely information and again it really is educational and we just want to make sure that the council has the information the public who's watching has some factual information that as the city continues to work through processes this can all be in the back of your mind so tonight we're going to start with Allison har Harwood she is the director of Natural Resources with WSB um she has actually been a consultant we have hired to assist the city with processing these alternative uh the aars the um alternative Urban areawide review the environmental review and I do want to establish or set the stage that this process and she will talk about it is all established through Minnesota state rules and so we are following the Minnesota state rules um and she'll be able to explain all of that how we fit into it and what the process inails um after Allison is completed with her presentation there's an opportunity to have that dialogue with Council we'll have Tom Jackson present tom is the Minnesota afcom chapter president and I waited one second too long um and he is here as an expert in the data center industry to be able to talk about what they are again why Minnesota um how they've evolved and also again be able to have that dialogue with Council so with that I'd like to turn it over to Allison to talk about the aars all right thank you welcome well thank you all for having me here tonight um as Deana said I'm going to be introducing you to an environmental review topic um called the alternative Urban areawide review you may be more familiar with other types of State Environmental review processes um which I will also speak on a little bit just to kind of set the St stage so a few relevant terms that might be helpful um because I'll be using a fair number of acronyms um are on the screen here so the first is the eqb so that's the Environmental Quality board that's the state that that board oversees the state's environmental review program though implementation of the rules themselves are passed down to local governments or responsible government units which is one of the other acronyms on the list rgu there's a few different types of environmental review programs the one that you might be the more most familiar with is called the eaw or the environmental assessment worksheet those are typically completed for individual developments that have pretty defined concept plans another type of environmental review is the Eis or environmental impact statement and those are typically completed for again individual projects that have a defined concept plan but have um a more significant potential for more significant impacts to the environment things that you might see an Eis completed for would be like mineral mining um a mineral mine or like the Vikings Stadium had an Eis versus an eaw or completed for um you know large projects but smaller in terms of environmental impact so it could be a a Housing Development or an industrial site um and again those two types of environmental reviews are typically done for um defined individual defined um developments the one that we're going to be talking about tonight is called the a or alternative Urban areawide review and the whole purpose of of any of these reviews is to determine whether or not a development could have a significant impact sign significant meaning it cannot be undone or addressed through a formal review or pering process so what is an AAR as Deana mentioned um these all of these environmental processes are laid out by the eqb through Minnesota rule and so it's a it's a State Environmental review document it's it's a hybrid of the eaw and the E process it allows for local governments or rgus to study the effects that different development scenarios and that could be um multiple developments within one one defined area may have on both the environment or Community infrastructure um over the course of a longer period of time and so one of the advantages of these types of reviews is that it allows local governments to really plan for how different developments may come into their community and cumulatively impact um both the you know the natural environment but also public infrastructure over a long period of time these documents um are valid or can are valid for five years and then they have to be updated um for the period of time until development within that defined study area has been completed so again the purpose of these any of these environmental review documents but specifically the AAR it's really meant to be a planning tool um the purpose of them is to help identify the potential for cumulative impacts that multiple developments um could have within a specific area over a period of time it also helps to helps the city as well as developers to identify um the mitigation measures that could be put into place to offset those potential impacts um and it helps to inform future permitting decisions Planning and Zoning decisions again for both the the cities as well as the developers what the a is not it's not an approval document it's not meant to approve any sort of De development um or land use uh that's that's presented within the document itself so when are these reviews required so Minnesota rule 4410 requires environmental review you for various types of developments and densities there are certain thresholds that are set that if you if a if a type of development crosses a threshold it may need to either complete an eaw or an Eis so for example residential development within a city like Farmington if it exceeds 250 unattached or 375 attached units it would be required to have an eaw completed um there's other types of thresholds like are listed there for different types of land uses such as industrial commercial um and institutional land uses E's also have thresh holds that are much higher um aars are an allowable type of review for certain types of developments specifically residential commercial warehousing and light industrial and so again the purpose of them is to identify um the potential for environmental impacts for multiple um or general land uses so it could be you know 400 Acres of industrial well you may have four different types of industrial developments in there over the period of many many years and the AO helps you look at how those 400,000 square foot industrial developments could impact that land and the the surrounding resources over time the city is the responsible government unit for aars and ultimately are is the owner of those documents however future mitigation that's identified within the documents themselves May either be the responsibility of the of the city or it could be the responsibility of the developers as they come in um over time during that review period so there's several topics that are covered in the a um they're all the same topics that are covered in both eaws and E's and so those U range from everything from land use and cover types to Wildlife and habitat to public infrastructure such as water and sewer and transportation during development of the AO typically studies and reviews occur such as traffic studies um these studies are typically pretty high level in nature and they're based on anticipated land uses versus the defined concept plans the need for additional or future studies may be identified in the a um and then they was those would be again typically carried out either by the the city um as development occurs or by individual developers um the other important piece of the AAR is the mitigation plan and though and the mitigation plan outlines the specific actions that need to be carried out as development occurs to offset the impacts to both again the um environment and and infrastructure again similar to um some of the other resources those mitigation measures may be carried out by the individual developers in some cases or they may be carried out by the local government units the general a process is outlined below it is a a relatively can be a relatively lengthy process um the first step in it is for the responsible government unit to adopt an order to prepare so that's essentially it's the local government unit recognizing that there are projects that could be coming into their City within a defined area that overtime could have a cumulative impact and um they order the preparation of the a a r they then the rgu develops the AO or or in some cases a developer who's interested in developing that land may come in and prepare the a for the city to um review um and so after the order of adoption then the rgu is developing that AAR um an important thing to note is often that Document Preparation is started prior to the order actually being um adopted and part of that is just because of some of the timing constraints that Minnesota rule um lays out in terms of how long the responsible government unit has to adopt a mitigation plan after they order the a so after the rgu um actually develops the AAR then they it gets distributed out to the public and um some required there's a required list of agencies that receive that review and they have that review and are able to review and comment on it for a 30-day review period once all those com comments come back in there the the draft a is revised based on those comments um and and then it will go back out to those agencies and met Council for an additional 10 days during those 10 days um the agencies and met Council have an opportunity to object to an AAR um or say that it's essentially not a valid form of review for that area or that um type of land use if there are no objections which I've never seen an aoar objected to um just for reference but if there are no objections the aoar can be adopted um and at that point it's valid for five years um as I mentioned one of the advantages of an a is that you can um you can review multiple types of land uses so you're required to review at least what is adopted under your comprehensive plan as the planned land use but you're able to evaluate additional development scenarios too often cities choose to um also review a more impactful or maybe a worst case development scenario in addition to whatever they've got have adopted under their future land use plan and the purpose of that is so that um there's more flexibility in terms of what sorts of um developments can come into that area over the course of you know the next five years or beyond that and so the a um remains a valid form of environmental review for 5 years for any development that was studied within the limits of that a study if there's something that comes in that doesn't conform to what was evaluated under the AAR um then that individual development would either need to complete its own environmental review document perhaps an eaw or um the city could choose to just amend the entire and update the entire AAR to to fit what is proposed and then as as development comes in developers and the rgus continue to review and implement the mitigation measures that are outlined in the AAR um to ensure that there's a minimal impact to the environment um and with that that's um kind of just a general High Lev overview of what the a program is and process and so I'm happy to answer any questions that you all may have thank you ma'am Steve um I remember we went through this process back in BO I want to say 20056 with the with the high school um so let's look at a c if you could go back like two slides three four stop okay so we know based on um or we know that you know we're to be queuing up discussion on data centers next and you know some of the you know the high level topics that come up in that category would be air noise water sewer infrastructure for example so knowing that an a is potentially not going to look at what a specific development is going to look like what might it say for example in the water sewer category sure so um you know in in reference to things like tech centers you know typically there's still an idea of the range of water use that may be used so an AAR will identify um in in the case of at least industrial a number of square feet of industrial use and so if it's you know 2 million square feet of industrial use then that is what will be evaluated for potential water use um for tech centers you know this when the city receives those or when the city's developing those one of the questions we ask is you know whatever range they give us for what they're saying the water use will be does that make sense for what we know about what the water use for a tech center is um and so at that point you know we can ask for more information or build into the mitigation plan a plan for what studies would need to occur should specific types of development come through okay um okay that's all I have for the moment yeah uh Steve kind of went in a different way I guess you talked about the scenario planning so you know as we kind of go through there's maybe the three scenarios that I've kind of heard right there's the the the tech center plan there's the existing understanding I'll call it of what may have been there with more residential and Parks like that that would I assume be included in something like that if um if requested if requested or if that is what the existing future land uses under the comp plan that would have that's required to be studied um if it's just an additional then it would just be a requested and you would do that across I mean it's always all these categories right you don't focus on one because to like Steve's point I wouldn't want to do a and noise if you're talking about Parks you know kind of thing so right it's not fair to S and hold those two together it's just the overall pictures that I'd be curious about and then your your worst case I guess you know you you talk about probably industrial Right non- teex Center usage kind of thing for as far as environmental impact so with those three then would fall into that umbrella basically right yeah I mean there could be depending on the land use there could be some topics that aren't as relevant for certain types of land uses as for others um you know for a tech center maybe Water Resources is a more is a larger concern for regular industrial maybe traffic would be a larger concern but the a would um would would evaluate all of that and document you know for a tech center land use these would be the the more impacted resources and these would be the mitigation measures you need to implement for that land use and then again for other land uses it would be the same thing I'm just more interested in knowing like how you hold the studies up next to each other at the end of the day as opposed to you know telling three very independent stories that you can't hold next to each other making sure that you can you know make your columns and you know your pros and cons of each and see how each category Compares right right um and I guess to answer that it's the document isn't necessarily meant to say that one type of development is better than another it's to evaluate how any type of development would impact the environment and if there's a mitigation measure if there's something that can be done in the future to plan or mitigate for for that what those steps could be so then the city has that has that information to use when evaluating developments as they come in right I mean you must be able to draw some pros and cons out of each review though right as opposed to just you know impact cost I guess or or something along those lines right can I interject to help answer that um so again I think this is going back to what is an AAR and what isn't an AAR and um the process that we go through through with an AAR is to analyze all of these various different elements and what different development scenarios how how these topics are impacted by different development scenarios again like Allison said it's not a it's a tool it's not a decision um that yes a certain development is good or bad that again is based on a lot of other factors and this is one component that will come forward as part of an analyzing a proposed project in the future but again this is studying the impacts of different development Types on all these different topics we can use that information we being the city we being the council um as part of an a a bigger process for sure and what really comes from this and where the I think the strength and the value of these documents lie is it identifies that the mitigation it identifies what would need to be done and what the impacts would be um and one of the things that maybe wasn't clear in part of this is um the the a we've already identified that it's regulated it's everything through the state rules and it's very exact exacting with what is required we don't get to pick and choose what goes into it and the Consultants that prepare these they this is what they do and so they typically and we don't have a draft one up here to show you or one a model one from the state's eqb website but they're very exact and they're very they look the same if you will dep you know no matter which site you're looking at across the state because it's required to have all the very specific information included within it so we talk about the process but what we didn't talk about is the format of what that looks like and what has to be included um um in order to get through the comment period with the various different state agencies and there's a list of is it 16 or 19 state agencies that um receive these and are asked to comment on them and so again having a very exacting kind of document helps with that kind of review that happens from all these different agencies so I just want to interject to help again establish the fact that it's not a decisionmaking document it is an information document that identifies mitigation measures depending on the various different scenarios so sure they'll look at different scenarios one has to be what the future land use is and then one can be like Allison said a more intense or like a you know just a more intense type of use and so that you can lay that out and see that no matter what there's an impact um any kind of change any kind of development will have an impact in these various different categories but it's to what degree is that impact and then what the how can you mitigate that is really what the document helps you understand what needs to be done to mitigate the impact that that development would have it's helpful I might have been jumping the gun a little bit but I mean just for clarification though I mean do we deated the scenarios or are those suggested to you by the people that we are submitting the a to no say this is the zoning we're proposing and they would say here's scenarios based on our data so we as the responsible government unit identify what those scenarios are one of them has to be what the future land use is shown and the other one can be the other one or there could be multiple is of our choosing and what we have would choose to do is look at um more intense use um to really understand at a a full buildout of a more intense use that's based on what we believe the future land you should be in that area that's what we look at perfect that's exactly what I was looking for thank you thank you too that's all I don't overlook the most important person in the room right now like hly um so I appreciate the emphasis that this is uh a feasibility document um giving us one of the tools that we have I guess my my questions are a little different because uh no sense in repeating what's already been asked the scope of the study area is determined per project right so what we're looking at is a set number of Acres based on an area of development um then what or how as as you know the responsible govern government Gover in unit how do we plan for opportunities that may compound this but are beyond that area sure so there is um a a section of the a the cumulative potential effects section where we have the opportunity to look at that stud not only just that study area but what else the city may know of happening um within proximity to it and that's the opportunity to say okay well we know what's going on here we also know there's something going on in this other area and those impacts could combine to become more significant um over time and again then there's the opportunity to identify what mitigation may need to happen um should all of that development happen you know in in just the right way um to to cause that cumulative effect okay and we can do that for Acres around that can we do that within the entire scope of the city or or what does that typically look like um so there's no no there's no required radius or anything like that um it's generally just whatever you know City staff and the other reviewers determine to be um to have resources that could interact so you know sewer or Transportation may look different in terms of what that cumulative impact might be versus um impacts to to Wetlands which are you know going to be maybe a little more defined on the landscape okay okay thank you do the scenarios also explore worst case I mean we were talking not worst isn't the right word but um Maximum Impact right so we have the this is what our this is what we think is going to happen this is what could happen but does it also explore worst case scenarios for things that are beyond our control like prolonged drought or something that you know we're we're operating with a a baseline set of this is what life is going to look like until it doesn't look like that and then now what so is is there an area that focuses on that too there is so just this last year the the greenhouse gas and climate impact section of the environmental review documents including the a was added that looks at just that so what could be happening in this area more intense storms more flooding and are there additional mitigation measures or studies that should be completed to Define what those impacts could be or or offset them okay um and I guess the only the only other thing that I had is just an emphasis on the fact that and I know di you brought it up we own we as in the city of Farmington um own this AAR but we are not the ones to conduct it that's completely outside of us so it's not like the people holding the chips are also the ones looking at the carts right correct so we're the responsible government unit and there are many times that cities themselves conduct aars um so that that's not unheard of um we are not um but we're reviewing and the reason we also have brought Allison on board is as a she's the director of Natural Resources with WSB so she this is the world she lives in and we want to have her expertise reviewing the documents on our behalf as they get submitted to make sure that um nobody's just glossing over anything but truly that we're looking at these different scenarios and so um always the city is the responsible government unit with these and yes at the end we own them but we're not paying for these particular ones to be done at this time and the other thing I did just want to mention is that it is not uncommon to have multiple aars happening in a community or to have in different areas where there's development opportun ities I mean that's so when we talk about the cumulative impacts I mean typically they probably look they don't look Citywide they look around that development but that is pretty common for a community to have multiple aars awesome thank you thank you so much yep so I'm going to direct this at at both of you because I think either one of you can answer but I just I want to kind of like color by numbers this right for the for the average person who doesn't have anything to do with Environmental Studies and just wants to say like how help me help me best understand this cities typically will not I mean depending on their stage of development they will not go out and just do an auar on a comp plan to say here's what we have planned out we just kind of want to know it's really expensive to do so what you do is you kind of position yourself with future planning and comp plans and ideas of what things could be throughout the years and as prospective development um or developers start to inquire and ask questions there's a little bit more seriousness that happens you start to kind of that funnel starts to work its way through at which point you get things like purchase agreements letters of intent um preliminary Concepts in in really extreme cases but there starts to get a level of initiative to move it down the line to find out hey are we even in the same ballpark here because know that the intended use is going to have to go through some level of an environmental review then we get to this point where you take data from multiple Industries based on the type of uses that we're looking at one what's required is the in the 20 240 comp plan but also what the intended use is so in uh a case where it's going to be commercial industrial mixed use there's nine or 10 different proposals of how it can be used we're not going to study all of those 10 we're coming and saying hey we want to look at this then you're going to use it as a planning tool to do your analysis as a long-term Vision potential impacts cumulative potential effects which is only going to come back to us later on to say okay this works it doesn't work there's a mitigation strategy based on what the intended use is we still don't know what the long-term use is we have a general idea but we don't really know what because there's no planning process yet there's so many other steps that have to take place but we are looking far enough to say based on your data in this situation um in a technology park or or data center the city is not going to allow you to build millions and millions and millions and 10 million square feet on a parcel we're going to have land coverage requirements local ordinances planning tools that we use to to get a rough idea of the size and scale and you're looking at the environmental impact there are still systems and measures in place I.E the cumulative potential effects that an end user whenever that may be is not going to come in and say we're just going to say thanks for the information but we're just going to circumvent all of that there are too many internal controls in place and there's too many regulatory agencies to make sure that that doesn't happen Fair correct and that's um you know that's exactly one of the points points of the aars to help both the city and developers understand this is the entire process these are all of the approvals that you are going to need to get to get from concept plan to shovel in the ground um and you know part of that is for every scenario saying here's all the required permits you might need to rezone an area for one scenario but not for the other you might need an entire comp Amendment for one of the scenarios but not the other um there being maybe certain types of permits that you need to get from other state agencies or other agencies beyond the city for certain scenarios but not the other and so um you know that's where this a document and the process is a is a tool that's helpful for not only the the city but also you know eventual land un users and um you had mentioned uh earlier in your comment that you know that cities maybe don't have to do this and as Deana mentioned um sometimes they do sometimes they use them as an economic development tool because the environmental review process is lengthy it is costly and so um some cities have used the AAR as a tool to incentivize developers to come to them because they already have this process completed um the cost of it may be passed through in some sort of development agreement but um the process itself is done assuming that they kind of stay within the box that's that's been reviewed um and so you know I've I've I've been on the side of completing the the AAR for for the cities and I've been on the side of reviewing the aars that come in from um Developers for these sites and so it's a it's a very similar process either way um but uh there are some you know there the City of Blaine is looking at is doing an AAR for the Redevelopment to the Northtown Mall area and so there again that's more of an incentive to hey we we know all of this Redevelopment is going to happen um how can we map out what it's going to look like for ourselves but also for the developers um and you know other cities do that for more Agricultural and uses that they've you know been annexed into their into their cities um but yeah often they are presented by developers who you know have already I'm assuming had some sort of conversations with City staff about what sort of land use would be allowable if it's not in conformance with the comp plan um and then this is just the next step to really outline what the process is going to look like for them to get to development or to you know sell them to other developers I I appreciate that point of clarification because they're that kind of piggy back into my the second comment kind of there's a question in there but um as part of the cumulative potential effects and my peers alluded to the this a little bit we're looking specifically at Water and Sewer infrastructure so we're looking at what's in place and the burden that our system can withstand right what is the potential use at capacity right or or what at what threshold is there an overb burdening of our system where new infrastructure has to be put in even then where it uh existing infrastructure ties into other adjoining parcels and or they have shared um larger sewer collectors there's still thresholds by which the AAR study will say you cannot exceed without adding two so there there's enough information to make an educated decision with some generalities before you get further down the line to a definitive um end use per se is that fair well I think it's also important to point out that um an AAR is a process yep where we're looking at the environmental impacts on scenarios including this Maximum Impact kind of scenario but there for any project there are also multiple other uh processes public processes and um the entitlements that happen that go along with a project and so the AAR is an important document absolutely but it's not going to have every a answer in it it's one piece um when we get to the point of then like reviewing um an actual project there are public uh there's planning steps associated with that the Planning Commission is involved the city council is involved there's public hearings um with any development we look at infrastructure there's a process that goes with that so the AAR I don't want people to walk away and think that it's going to be everything corre it is a piece where we look at the Maximum Impact development scenario um and its mitigation measures associated with that type of development we look at these scenarios it's information that gives us a plan to move forward but it doesn't at all take away all of the other steps that are associated with projects correct and so there's other areas along the way where we look at the development you you had mentioned um some of those bulk standards that is not part of the a process correct that comes through a different process we're not looking at setbacks we're not looking at height building Heights we're not looking at the fence the BM that's not at all part of the AAR so let's she's looking at other similar uses or the firm is looking at other similar uses um to get an idea of certain thresholds which gives it the Maximum Impact for the site right so you know a map may look like a parcel that just says 100,000 square feet of industrial which is probably more than that but um but that's obviously you know when it gets to development review stage all of that will have to conform all of the other setbacks and standards and studies that the city City's development review process requires um again these aars are are designed to be and also in some cases intended to be long-term planning documents and so I I've every five years they have to be updated I've on been on the fourth update of some of these aoar in some communities and so um to be able to say on day one this is exactly what the the use is going to be and this is exactly what the impact is going to be um you know you can't you can't do that you can say we know that this is the intended land use and this is based on models this is how much water maybe run through this system um and and then these are the next steps that will need to happen when development comes in um if that development doesn't happen in fire years then you get another shot at reviewing it again and you know maybe standards change or there's new rules that then Happ have to be implemented and I think it's also important to point out like the the maps that you see within an AAR um will they don't they're not concept plans so you're not going to see Road layouts and Landscaping and building placement you will see what um basically the maximum amount of square footage that could be um developed the maximum based on standards that could be developed on that size piece of property and that's the scenario period it doesn't get into all the nuances of other than to say the type of land use right right okay the only other point I wanted to make is just to affirm that um and I believe it was slide four we had the um you had the abbreviations in there you would use the term significant and that it cannot be undone or addressed through a formal review or permitting process so the the AAR study that's going to come is ensuring that there is not a significant impact something that's going to happen to the area under the intended uses that the study has done for that would put it in a position that it's significant and there is not a mitigation strategy that would correct it right y it's okay so yes perfect sir you go I'm sorry mayor and council members I just wanted to to mention Deana talked about a burm for instance and maybe that's a good uh example the need for a burm might not come out of zoning or you know land use requirements but as part of the mitigation effort for noise and air one of the mitigation efforts might be to create a burm around a certain portion of a development so that's not coming from the standards review side it's coming from the mitigation side because there's been you know some a noise concern identified I think the other thing um because we are in the midst of a comprehensive Plan update I'll be talking to you about initiating some trunk sewer and water studies uh in the near future we're not doing those for one development or a specific a we've got growth around the city that we need to account for and we need to make sure that those systems 20 and 40 years down the road are ready and so that's I want to clarify that that it's not a it's not triggered by develop it's triggered by our comprehensive plan of so appreciate that thank you one can you hop forward sorry making you guys WR about each but the one with the one more down sorry couple more never mind was that is that an exhaustive list or is that just examples those are just examples um I would have to look at all the exact uh topics that are in there and and if there are other topics that are important to the city and those are certainly areas that can also be added to the review these are just the typical topics that are um covered and have relevant impacts generally speaking we're looking at environmental reviews I just noticed electrical wasn't on there so I just wanted to make sure that fell in there I mean this is a pretty significant part of the conversation so I don't know if that fell under this umbrella or um it doesn't actually um public infrastructure looks more at um transportation sewer water but not necessarily the electrical grid for the area okay if that's what you're that is ask y okay did Holly or Steve have any other questions or NOP not right now anything from our team at all no okay we don't have any further questions then at this point Dan if there's anything that you wanted to add or you're good I was just gonna swi it over I think Alis is planning to stay yeah for the work session so if there's other questions that come up but then we can switch over to um the data center specific topic Ellison thank you appreciate it and Tom before I mess this up is the H silent yeah okay perfect just like Thomas just like Thomas trying to be different uh well thank you mayor thank you city council for having me um I like your paint by numbers discussion that's kind of my goal here today right very high level overview um I'm not selling anything I'm just trying to uh share my experience uh throughout the day Center industry uh my name is Tom Jackson silent h um I'm a mechanical engineer by trait uh I've been designing and commissioning data centers for over 20 years um I'm a part of afcom so afcom is a National Organization International now um just a information gathering sharing uh a lot of Outreach a lot of learning uh we have local chapter here in Minnesota uh it's 100% volunteer board uh I've been the chapter president for seven years now um and our goal is just to get people together talking about data centers where are we going what are the trends uh we're doing a lot of student Outreach we're doing a lot of just educating the public right what is a data center why are we here um what is a data center just room full of computers right uh at the end of the day we've been doing this since the 50s uh we no longer smoke pipes uh in data centers that's a little bit different um but it's a room full of computers uh the computers obviously have gotten a lot faster a lot uh more fun to look at uh and a lot bigger right our our use of Technology uh has grown exponentially since these things started so it's really just a room full of computers that's all it is right but what do we use it for now um our our use of technology has grown so much that almost everything we do now touches data centers right um obviously things like emails and internet and all those good things uh streaming TV uh if your data center is not caching that much stuff right you sit there and you're trying to watch your show and it just sits and Spins uh we've all been there right it's going through a data center it's getting back to you um data centers are important things like banking right when was the last time you took that check from your you know employer right to the bank and watched it go through and got out cash and this and that it's all online now right it's all stored in data centers um we rely on these things to be accurate and fast um and store the right data things like health records right uh it's stored out in a data center very very secure ideally um but if I have a doctor's appointment here versus going down to mail versus I'm on vacation in Florida and I break my ankle I want my health records to be accessible and the way we do that is it's stor the data center um so that our Healthcare Providers can access that data right um any documentation whether it's things at work um City Council meetings all those kind of notes and things all stored somewhere uh where is it it's in the data center uh retail transactions right every time we swipe that credit card it goes through data centers whether it's going to the credit card processor back to the retail processor back to whoever is approving that transaction it's all going through data centers multiple data centers cers um almost everything we do touches a Data Center and and you you know it right away when we have outages right um there's not a lot of public outages there are you know go ahead and Google an outage uh and you'll see the you know there was a few outages obviously um a large cell phone provider uh earlier that was shut down for several hours it affected a lot of people uh largest uh fast food chain in the world was down Global outage and they had people just sitting at stores and couldn't by their hamburger uh it's because of data centers right sometimes it's simple little things that could get uh software update that got screwed up but it's because it's things in the data center right that's how much we rely on technology a couple of uh definitions maybe um there's a few different types of of data centers as these things have grown uh even over my short lifetime here um Enterprise data centers are your big Fortune 500 companies right people that own their own data center um they store their stuff and their stuff only so they can control it what goes in what goes out all the updates and that stuff collocation is a business um that then rents out space to other uh businesses so that they can put their computers within their space right so they'll manage the environment they'll manage um the power and the cooling in the space and rent it out to you uh Edge data center is more of a a thought where you're getting that computer down closer to the end user right in a retail application um in the back of the store there's a data center that's processing your credit card as fast as it can processing their stock inventories um so that they can quickly process that before shipping it out right if that if all that stuff had to go across the country to do the transaction and come back it takes a lot longer right just latency across fiber uh so the edge data center is just bringing that compute closer uh to the end user and then hyperscale is the other big one obviously as the name complies um these are the very very large data centers the the big five um the internet providers the the big search engine that you've heard of um these are massive um data centers But there again all of these just a r of computers right so just talk typical growth um when I started a one megawatt data center was a very big data center um it quickly grew to 10 you've hearing about some 10 megawatt data centers which is a lot of power a lot of compute nowadays 100 megawatt site is no big deal um because of all of these things touching the data center because of more and more things we're doing in a data center more and more Computing we're doing just as a country uh these things have grown like crazy so just as an example uh this is just a sample chart from CBRE over the last several years of just showing that growth uh of data center construction showing the growth of data center absorption so these people aren't just building these things to build them um they're actually being used and it's obviously going up like crazy even in the last uh 3 four years here so just giving a scale of where we're going and why these things have been so big um and gotten you know so public all over the place where's the cloud um here's a picture of the cloud it's just a room full of computers right your data is going somewhere when you're sending from your phone to the cloud it's going to a data center um whether it's in one of these big hypers scales whether it's in an Enterprise um businesses sometimes have their own private Cloud where they're doing all this compute usually what the cloud is used for is storing a lot of data doing compute and coming back right or storing a lot of photos storing a lot of uh documentation that you want up there you don't want to own that you're sending it to the cloud it's just a data center somewhere right uh so are they important we touched on a few of these things um if you have an outage to your data center and your 911 calls don't go through anymore that's an issue right obviously there's things in place that we do uh when that sort of things happen the retail you can't um get gas anymore you're stuck in the line uh and the 10 people behind you are mad at you but it's really not your problem maybe the data center went down right just connectivity for business uh in itself uh if you have to send a thousand people home for the day because your compute is not working what what does that do to your business uh the security as we touched on a little bit right uh we don't want everybody looking at our health records but they're stored out there uh so there's pros and cons to it right there's the reasons we store it out there as we discussed so that it's easily accessible it's accurate it's fast we can get to it um but we want to keep them safe right so there's things in place that data centers do uh there's laws there's regulations um that they have to follow in order to to have financial data and health records and things in their Data Center uh so obviously that's a that's a concern Financial records as we talked about you know school records photos all those things uh we want to keep that safe and secure um but it's things that we want to access so it's out in the data center uh speed and accuracy there again is we're we're putting this into a room full of computers but how do we get it back out how do we quickly access that data um you know things like the stock market if you hit go and stuff you're trying to buy a stock and it's sitting there and it's got to go to 15 different places before you can make that transaction you've lost out uh whatever that dollar amount is so how do we make it fast how do I know that my financial records are accurate uh and it's relying on these these companies to provide the right data uh in and out of these computers in the data center and obviously your favorite show you want to make sure that's accessible uh so where where have things been going even in this last year and obviously it's artificial intelligence um just a couple of quick examples this is this is a picture my daughter took of our cat um and I noticed there was a little blue button on the bottom of the phone I clicked the button and it instantly within a half a second told me that I have a Bombay cat I didn't know that um but it reached out and looked thousands and millions of pictures and said this is what you have um and all of that speed is because it's going out to the data center and doing all these computes and doing all these calculations to say here's what you have right self-driving cars as learning they're learning the differences between a pedestrian and a car and a motorcycle they're they're comparing stop lights to say is the red light on the left is it on the top what's the green light look like so it's taking that instant picture and doing these calculations and coming back and saying it's a green light now I can go right a healthare example um when I get my uh chest x-ray I want to give it to the old this grizzli doctor that's looked at 100 chest x-rays so that they know what it looks like and can identify this thing uh but now with AI tools you can give it to the new grad and they can send it through the AI machine and and your scan just got compared to a million other scans in the world and it says yeah you have this right not just based on what that one doctor have maybe seen at some point so it's amazing what's happening with AI um but takes a lot of compute to get there right it takes a lot of data centers to get there that's why you've seen even over this last year we've seen as an industry uh these things are just expanding like crazy um these are just easy examples um but there's many many more that are being developed and and thought of every day uh that require more and more compute so it's it's pretty amazing so just very high level overview what is a data center um they're all different there's no oniz fits all uh it's business case use right as big as it small as it up as it down um the building itself uh most times we designed these things to be you know to withstand 240 mph wind uh obviously we're putting a lot of money in these data centers Within These computers in there so I want to protect this box tornado comes through we don't want that thing to to go flying um obviously there's security perimeter security outside Biometrics uh you know card readers all that good stuff um typical office type spaces and dock spaces um a lot of these have a you know a Guard Station outside depending on how big they are uh from a power side as we discussed a little bit um these do take a lot of power depending on how big the size is um usually it's a single utility sometimes dual utilities come into these things um there's also backup generators right so just like a hospital um if the power goes out these generators kick on right um so most of the time they're diesel generators sometimes we're starting to see a lot more natural gas generators um moving down from generators we have uh UPS systems and batteries right so between the power outage and when that generator can fire up start up and take the load we're on battery right so as we're talking hundreds of megawatts we're talking about very large battery plants um inside these facilities to keep that ride through right so that our transactions can still happen our financial banking is still alive um until that generator comes on and and takes that load um most data centers are still running dual power all the way down to the to the uh device itself so your computer that sits there has two power covers so just in case one whole side goes down it's still alive from the other side uh so we build in a lot of these redundancies all the way down to the server itself um but computers are really just big toaster right or or hair dryers uh it it's just giving off heat so because of that we have to do cooling right um these are hundreds of megawatts sitting inside of a building U we cool it with h you know chilled water refrigerant all those good things um outside air has been widely accepted now uh we've been doing a lot more higher temperatures uh so that we can save a lot more energy so we can provide less Cooling in here um again similar to power we have redundant systems throughout right so if something fails we want the other one to kick in so that we can continue to cool down these toasters otherwise they'll quickly overload uh and you lose all your data um obviously internet and cabling not only is it multiple internet service providers coming into these facilities it's all the cabling within the racks um and all the redundancy across uh each server itself and then obviously on the it side you know there's the hardware component there's the software component there's the cyber security components all of those parts and pieces that run that computer uh to process all that data so wanted to just briefly touch on a few of the big things that we've been talking about maybe even more recently um energy usage right as we talk these things have grown like crazy um we've been trying to be more energy efficient as an industry for many many years um back in 2007 there was a group called The Green grid that was founded that kind of set some definitions uh Power utilization Effectiveness where we could kind of compare data centers how energy efficient are you and there was a race to get more and more and more energy efficient which is fantastic um but it kind of helped people get into the mindset of let's not just keep plugging things in so it's also on the the user side to unplug computers that aren't being used for instance right or how do we use a more efficient uh Chiller to in order to cool these things uh similarly on the water side comparing different water usages um how can we kind of Define in the industry how can we do better uh and use less water for these facilities uh so water usage itself obviously depends on what we have um there's multiple different cooling technologies that we can use um if we have a lot of water available at a site at a region at a location um we use the most energy efficient technology we can um if it's allowed but that could be up to 15 gallons per minute per megawatt um 247 365 right so we're talking about a lot of water um when we start designing sites if there's not water available we just switch to a different cooling technology and we use very minimal water right so going from say an open cooling tower where you see in the winter where the big plumes of of water vapor are coming off to switching to an air cool Chiller where it's just fans and a dry cooler uh just a simple coil like it as at home right just just blowing hot air into the into the atmosphere uh noise has been a concern that's been um talked about in a few locations um some are very very Justified some are not uh the it equipment itself just like your laptop at home when it starts Computing more right that fan kicks on to a second speed you can hear it uh so think about those thousands of servers inside of a building it's very very loud um but that equipment is far within the very insides because that's where it's the safest rate and we pack lots of and lots of concrete walls and roofs around it uh so that's not the noise we're going to hear outside um these backup generators they're again are for emergency use only um so they will kick on and we will hear them but there again as a city we have requirements that say on your boundary line you have to be meet this decel level right so in order to do that generator manufacturers put sound attenuation on their boxes uh on sound attenuation on the intake and the exhaust and the mufflers and everything else in order to meet the city requirements for sound attenuation right same as the cooling equipment if we have many many fans Up on the Roof many many fans outside in an equipment yard um the manufacturers have got um sound dampening fans we can put um blankets on compressors to help mitigate that sound there again at the end of the day when the data center is turned over it has to meet the sound requirements of the city um so things are in place obviously but but there yes there may be noise right a concern uh pollution is one of those things that kind of gets thrown around um most of the greenhouse gas pollution you'll see is on the emergency generators but like I said just like just like a hospital we're not using them all day long because Diesel's expensive so these data center providers don't want to use the generators non-stop uh so only during the outage and then they're testing once a month just like hospitals do but they meet uh EPA requirements right as a manufacturer sure the generator you purchase has to meet those requirements um traffic uh during construction though will be traffic these humongous sites obviously have thousands of workers uh trade professionals that could be working at them um but once you get that 18mon two-year process out of the way there's really not a lot of traffic right there's some box trucks usually that come in and out of these things to deliver new servers uh delivering filters or parts and pieces to maintain all of this equipment um but it's not a big delivery service coming in and out it's not a distribution center right you're you're seeing some box trucks here and there there's employees 24/7 obviously to maintain this facility and keep it running um but not hundreds of people sitting in a parking lot coming in and out you know on shift change um jobs for local areas I think this has been a one that we've been struggling with even Nationwide right is finding people uh to to work on these facilities during the construction obviously the trades facilities are are very very tight these days uh because there's so much construction happening across the country um but very very good trades jobs uh highly skilled it Workforce right as as these things are built we need people to be in there maintaining them from a cyber security from a networking side uh software Hardware the hands and feet to to do those jobs and then even you know the trades jobs continuing throughout to maintain this facility because there are so many parts and pieces that power and cool these these things uh we need good people to work on them uh quickly why Minnesota um Minnesota on the data center industry is considered a tier 2 Market uh tier one markets are kind of your Washington DC Northern Virginia uh Dallas Silicon Valley Chicago areas we've been considered kind of a tier 2 Market kind of your Super Bowl cities um m mostly just from a population side of things um because there again I'm not going to um put a data center in the middle of nowhere if there's really no users to to stream that data to so we've been kind of considered a tier 2 Market uh we are cold here in Minnesota which everybody enjoys um and like I said over the years we've we've accepted higher temperatures which allows me as a mechanical engineer to design system to use that outside air for a lot further on end of the year right so we're not supplying Air at 55 degree air like we're doing here in an office building we're supplying 85 degree air into the inside of these computers right so we're able to get a lot more free cooling where we're not using compressors uh for a lot more time so there again from an energy use standpoint companies are saying okay if I can get a lot more free cooling I'm going to save some money save some energy if I'm if I'm putting my data center in in Minnesota uh the Minnesota tax incentive program has been around since 2012 maybe um so we have a really good tax incentive program that uh allows companies uh to Bex tax exempt from all the parts and pieces kind of within that data center right everything that supports that data center so that's that's been a really good program to help incentivize Minnesota and these days truthfully it's power and land um these campuses have been so big uh there's a few areas across the country that have said no more power uh to Data Centers because they were giving out power and everybody wanted to be there and they had to stop it uh even a year ago so these big companies that are building these humongous facilities are grabbing land and power wherever they can um and so that's why Minnesota and and some of our sites are starting to get more traction uh because we have good power we have good people uh we have some tax incentives that'll help people see that we're a good place to be so there again takeaways very high level right the thought is I'm just here to share my experience of of the data center industry there's no right way or wrong way to do one um but as we continue to use more and more technology we're going to continue to grow more and more data centers so um if they don't come to Farmington they're going to go somewhere else um because we're going to continue using technology um and all of its wonders behind it but it requires these bigger and bigger data centers um and especially with AI as this is continuing to spike and people are inventing more and more ways to use it um it just requires more uh rooms full of computers so um they're again good neighbor great jobs uh the concerns are manageable in in my view um but there again I'm not selling anything I'm I'm just here to kind of share some information of where we're going thank you sir much appreciated Nick any questions uh I one excuse me sorry um you talked about the 15 gallons per minute on the water can you translate how that plays into the cooler climate in Minnesota right if you're using more air cooling it's probably easier to pull in outside air how does that change when you're doing it in the winter using a water you know a liquid cooled data center yeah uh yeah liquid cooling is a whole different thing um but from a from an outside air standpoint um the industry is starting to accept outside air um if you think of putting millions and millions of dollars on computers inside um we never really wanted to pull that outside air right right in because if there's a brush fire outside all of that Smoke's going right into your gear and frying it um the concern in the winter here in Minnesota is we're we're not very humid at all right we're very very dry in the winter so in order to bring this stuff in now I'm bringing in static electricity and there's a lot of concerns for that um over the last two years here um the industry said we can take lower humidity levels but people haven't really uh you know shied away from that just because of the potential um but obviously you can switch to dry coolers where it's just like your house where you have a coil and a fan um and use that with the outside air for sure a lot lower a lot of these times when we're using the bigger uh water water cooled uh cooling towers outside sometimes we'll have a dry cooler Farm as well uh so that when you need to switch over it might be an option there again many many options to consider um as a data center as they choose their systems but I mean do is it ever the case that in the winter if you're using the outside air that you're using say a humidifier to counteract to static electricity I mean ises that count as water usage in the winter then basically is it significant compared to like a fully liquid cooled system not as significant as a cooling tower for instance in the water in the winter um but it's it's definitely water right and that water is just going in into the data center um just to keep our humidity levels right at an acceptable rate understood that's it for me thank you um I I have a I think a follow-up water question to that and then an electricity question as well um so with regard to the water that's being used about what percentage of that can you expect is going to evaporate into the air and that which does not evap what happens to that sure so in the worst case scenario in an open cooling tower right um I would say 80 90% of that air of that water usage is going out into the atmosphere right um we're making a warm wet plume of air that goes up and the atmosphere turns into clouds comes back down um the rest of it obviously you have your office functions of toilets and things like that um but then we have some blowdown Cycles where we're cleaning equipment out um but it's very minimal compared to the actual larger water usage um in a closed system technology it's very very minimal right you'll you'll add a little bit of water if you had a small leak somewhere um but it would be a very minimal add okay um and then with regard to electricity I know you talked about um suppliers is there are there efforts being taken now to capture solar electricity is that is that even conceivable when we're talking about the amount of electricity needed or is that am I way off the mark on thinking that yes and no there's a solar option um in addition to what we would consider I guess traditional traditional solar yes some some of these larger hypers scales have been installing humongous Farms of soil so solar um but it's a very minimal percent of their actual usage okay um so a lot of these big companies that have um a green energy initiative plan they'll be buying green energy credits usually usually from the power company um just because solar Farms are so large in order to get hundreds of megawatts it would be thousands of Acres that you would need to you know put put solar on to but but definitely we've seen it we've done it um we've done some microG grid Technologies right where you're bringing in natural gas and you're using that natural gas to power a a turbine and then you're using the Heat or you're using that turbine obviously to power the equipment and then you're using the heat from that that turbine to then heat and cool the data center uh through absorption chillers and heat exchanges and things like that so there's some other technologies that people use um they get complicated so I think a lot of people shy away from it um but there's definitely a bigger and bigger push to do more and more Energy Efficiency and be green I actually I one more question sorry um you had made mention of the fact that the data centers are not being built in the middle of nowhere because there's no one that needs those particular services so you tens of thousands of acres in the middle of nowhere we're not putting a data center there because there's no one to consume the data right so when we're talking about our use and the things that we do that we transact on every single day is there any way to get an idea of like if we if we had one 10 miles down the road as Farmington residents are we likely using that data center or are we using a data center that's in Virginia because it doesn't matter where they are it you just kind of Bounce all around uh yes and yes um you want your financial transactions to be done here in Farmington and in Virginia right because if this one went down you still want your bank data somewhere um when we're talking these giant hypers scales um the cloud computing you don't know where your data is going it's going to where they have available compute power um but there again it's just into the bigger ecosystem of things so can you say that when I send an email it's going to go through your data center no I don't think anybody could tell you that um it's a it's a big it's a big web right it's a worldwide web as they say one thing um I think it's important to add is that when we talk about the sighting of data centers there's a couple things that rise to the top I mean the first thing that needs to be available is power um then you need to be able to have land and you need the other infrastructure as well to support that so um there these are critical infrastructures is how I mean it's really in the same classification as a hospital like a crit it's a critical infrastructure and you have to have the the water the power the sanitary you need all of the things um and they need to be able to be consistent in order to have something you also have to be able to um attract the workforce and so some people would say why not just put it in the middle of nowhere and you may have one of those components but do you have all of those components in order to support that type of development um data centers are no different than any other type of Industry that we work with trying to help them um find sites that meet their needs they have a list of criteria and um the the proximity to Workforce ends up being one of the important factors but the number one still still is always going to be power and is that power available um to support the needs of that data center good thank you thank you Steve um before I have any questions I I mean I just want to make kind of an observation you know the you know where we're at here in 2024 I mean there's a part of me that kind of wishes we could go backwards a little bit and slow down a little bit um you know artificial intelligence for example I think even without me or other people knowing it it's just like all of a sudden it's happening and it's going on um you know and we would certainly hear from the public if we didn't have you know like a meeting like this available for streaming so somebody might be on vacation they might be at a son or daughter's college graduation in a different state and they want to stream the meeting and they'd be yelling at us you know wow how come you don't have streaming I mean every other city does so I mean it it's um there are days I almost wish we could slow down a little bit as a society and you know kind of recognize you know where where we're at a little bit um but such is not the case um sticking with the power part of it I've been reading quite a bit and it I believe a recent article pointed that you know by the time I get to 2030 the total energy consumption or electricity consumption just in the data center sector is going to be potentially 9% or even potentially higher than that so I mean that's looking at it from a national standpoint um I I do think at at some point as kind of as a digression de or Len would be interesting to hear from our local Partners to kind of better understand the availability of electricity in the future with that part of it but part of the reason I'm bringing that up is I think the demand for electricity is outpacing the available development or generation of it and I think as far as I understand the you know the green energy sources or you know the solar the wind are are getting there but we're certainly not there yet from a hyperscale standpoint so could you know could a community you know look at developing a Data Center building a Data Center and all of a sudden find out there's not enough power to run this thing there just isn't and then you've got this development sitting there with all the promises and everything and you don't have power to actually make it fully operational yeah absolutely that's a challenge that many uh jurisdictions have been running into um I've heard studies that by 2027 the data center industry is going to take as much power as the country of Netherlands um one of the big pushes because of this uh as an industry the the data center the very large data center players are talking nuclear power um there's a SMR small modular reactors uh there's a a newer newer newer nuclear technology that people are talking about putting on a site and building a data center around it because of the fact that the infrastructure is not there um so that just gives you an idea of because we're continuing to grow these things because we're going to run out of power um as a country um people are talking about building their own nuclear reactor um and building a as center around it um to the point where most of the big hyperscalers have a team of nuclear Engineers um on board working with their company for the last four or five years um when I went to the National show for afcom in DC a few months ago almost every other presentation was about nuclear um just because it's such a big topic right now because to your point um when when as an industry we build up this community and we give lots and lots of tax incentives and all these things happening back and we're building these Great Tech jobs and then we've run out of power and they can't provide power anymore there's a lot of people that are that are very upset a lot of companies right that you promised me this power and now I can't build it out uh to sell it to my customers so it's a very real thing it's on a lot of people's minds these days days and there again is because they're so big that's why everybody's looking across the country across the world as where do we have power and where do we have land well that's kind of yeah and I'd be I'd be really interested to hear from Dakota Electric and Excel about this because one you know I guess one thing I just maybe just don't know is you know is it our local utility companies that are supplying 100% of the power to these facilities or is it essentially shared and borrowed within other entities I mean we talk about the the the ant Antiquated grid that is out there um and is it you know every utility I know our our Planning Commission chair happens to be here I'm not going to ask him to come up here but um you know is it a local utility that is essentially layered on top of a a broader grid throughout the country I mean how does that part of it work it's based on your local utility right I'm just a simple mechanical guy so I can't speak all that well to the power um but we're pulling in the available power right so like you said here we have XL and Dakota Electric uh depending on the jurisdiction and the area that you're putting a data center uh you would get that available power um and you would take as much power as you can or as they can provide to you um so there again it's just agreements um on our electrical side we work with power companies um to if before somebody goes and buys the land they have a power use agreement so that Excel Energy or Dakota Electric can say yes I have this available power and we can ramp it up um on this timeline um but like I said a lot of these big hypers scales right now are I'm going to install my facility in two months or two two years and I need the power right away right where before we would always have this very very small growth uh short growth we would think we would do 10 megawatts but we would only get up to one megawatt maybe uh and we would see that bigger future now it's completely opposite uh they're grabbing everything as quick as they can got it so it's it's a real thing for utilities for sure good it absolutely is a real thing for the utilities but I think that's another thing that we need to layer into the conversation is that those conversations are happening between these hyperscalers and these data center users with the power providers and the power providers some of them are regulated by the Pu and others are regulated by other um other uh entities that are outside of us you know they have their own decision metrics that they have to go through to determine whether or not they able to serve these users they also and I mean forgive me Derk if I misspeak but um these utility providers do these system impact studies just like we do system impact studies we may call them something different when they're having these conversations with these type of users so um before a user would ever get to the city to start talking to us they're having these conversations with the power providers at least at that initial level and their um uh initiating these system impact studies to to understand what it would take um what upgrades would have to be done to the power distribution networks to serve it just like we will look at our own systems and what upgrades do we need to do for various different developments in order to serve them so those conversations are happening um and they uh we all know that just like we need to make upgrades there needs to be upgrades made um as they get bigger I think the utility providers are looking at um additional ways to serve but there's also an obligation uh from the power provider to serve there's they have an obligation to serve I mean obviously they're limited by capacity but that's for them to determine and understand and what does it take for them to to upgrade their Grid in order to be able to serve these users as well as anybody else within their District or within their service territory but again when we think about um that there is infrastructure in place and there's certain types of infrastructure that already exist that make some areas more attractive than others and you can drive around and see big huge uh transmission lines and that generally tells you some type of story about what has already been put in place but there will have to be no matter what data center what size data center um a study done for them to understand the impact of their overall system and for them to understand what upgrades would need to happen and over what time period can they actually deliver that and then that's a conversation between an end user like a hyperscaler in the and the power provider to determine if that ramp works for them or not in order to get them the type of power that they would like two more quick questions uh thank you Dana um so the earlier uh data centers you know maybe the the one megawatt the 10 megawatt Etc um you know are those becoming essentially Obsolete and vacated or are they being kind of retooled for more modern ones I mean so for example if we were to see a development here in Farmington you know technology and the technology increases to create a larger megawatt facility um are going to obviously improve over time so do data center owners T to or managers whatever the term is are they going to continuously be able to kind of retool that facility or once it becomes obsolete that they vacate and look for somewhere different yeah for sure uh we're continually doing upgrades right because the equipment itself needs to get refreshed it equipment and refreshed every three to five years um but even the power and cooling equipment right over 10 15 20 years gets a refresh um as that data Center's needs grow or Shrink um a lot of the data centers uh we had a a period in here uh with virtualization where we made things better and more efficient so I needed a lot less computers so people would retool their systems to serve a smaller footprint and then they could grow on that or it got to the point where it was so small that I would just send it to somewhere else right or I would sell my data center to a company that wanted to manage it and put more data centers in there um we're doing a lot of studies these days to increase uh capacity increase density right so your kilowatts per rack has been going up like crazy especially with his AI stuff right where a a 10 KW rack is very large now we're in the 100 150 KW per rack uh where we're actually putting liquid right to the computer itself uh to cool it so those are some technologies that we're layering in on top of the existing Technologies to now be able to allow that facility to grow right so now that one megawatt facility might be three or five whatever we can so definitely they're they're increasing and and refreshing all the time right one other final quick question I appreciate your Insight um you know I think there's some debate uncertainty about you know if there's any air quality discrepancies between you know an area in a Data Center and then you know a few miles away um you know how did data centers um try to protect and mitigate any type of um emissions that are going to affect the air quality because obviously air quality is important I mean you know we see a Canadian wildfire and we're trapped in our house for a day or two you know we can't do anything but there could be you know you're not going to see smoke you're not going to see the types of things you might see Wildfire but you might have particulars that are going into the air that you know if you're surrounded by it you might have concerns about that and you'd want to know that there really isn't an issue sure um and the the emissions that I guess we're talking about is the big black smoke coming out of a diesel generator for instance right when it starts up um there again those generators are only used on an a power outage right or they're monthly testing for 1020 minutes whatever it is um so if the power goes out and everybody starts their diesel generators that's when you would see that emissions um like I said it's all regulated uh by the government right now of what the what the engine must meet from an emission standpoint um if a if a sector usually not data centers but if an industry wanted to use that generator all the time uh there's different technologies that we can shoot into the Airstream uh to collect that carbon before it goes out um but there again that's usually only regulated right now for if I was going to use that generator non-stop so because of the fact it's just just like a hospital we're turning on that generator only when we've lost all utility um that's when the emissions would happen and when we would see smoke or smell anything but all right thank you technology the hack a lot better than it used to for sure yep thank you yeah I'm going to go completely different Direction with my questions how long have you been in mechanical engineering 23 years and how many years have you been working on data centers 20 years just over 20 years okay what's the thing that keeps you up at night what's the thing about data centers that besides the kids besides the kids what's the thing about data centers that I I'll better phrase this yeah if I want to know what kind of vehicle to buy I'll ask a mechanic or I'll watch what they're driving because they'll work on all of them from for most part but they'll tell you which one's not to drive you're in these facilities you're helping design these facilities you're following industry Trends um you know you've been on afcom seven years you see what's happening you can't turn a blind eye and go left often say well ignore all the you know conse the consequences of these things being built but there are still things about data centers that probably are less than ideal and that's why there's goals there's things that people are working towards but what's the thing about data centers that keeps you up at night what's the thing that you see as an industry issue um that that you're working to try and correct um maybe not issue what keeps me up at night is the excitement of how different these things have become even in the last two or three years um they're growing like crazy so the the question is how are we keeping up with it right from a design side from a trade side from a land side from a power side um we're going to run out of all of those and so now people are just designing bad things and you know getting it done and slapping it together which obviously is is terrible uh for the industry um but I'm not seeing that yet have an effect on on anything right there there's not this big thing in the industry that's a sore thumb that don't look over here right um it's a it's a Concrete building that uses power and does a lot of good things as as we know um but besides just the the size of these things and the amount of of of energy they're using that's really what's the the big concern right now um and and industrywide that's why everybody's trying to figure out what the heck to do because we're not slowing down in the use of data centers uh we're not slowing down in our use of of being addicted to the phone and being addicted to the computer and everything else that goes along with it um so really that's kind of the concern that I've always had of where are we going but that's also the excitement of how do we how do we revolve and how do we make new technologies to make it more efficient uh to be able to do more Cooling in a smaller footprint um so that's that's the excitement because it there's there's thousands and thousands of people across the country that are trying to make these things better and more efficient and and and do more for the country I I appreciate that answer and kind of why I wanted to go a different angle with this is because there's a lot of the technical stuff right you can get 600 people on one side that'll tell you all the good things you get 600 people on the other side saying the opposite they'll argue their facts and at the end of the day they agree to disagree right but you're building these things you're you're a part of a group who's looking at better ways to do it uh recognizing that we don't have the benefit of hindsight like we you know even you made the point about the conference about they're all talking about nuclear the fact that you even said that even just makes you go wow like what else what other Industries High um high energy users are looking at nuclear I mean we know it's in you know uh Solid Waste right you know there's all sorts of ways that they can utilize nuclear for um an alternative energy source and so I'm sitting here thinking about like yeah we can't get away from it right we're not going to go back to horse and Buggies we're we're not going to unplug the internet like e-commerce is not going away so how do we do it in a responsible manner how do we um not overuse our our resources you know Environmental Studies all the different angles to try and figure out how you make a decision on whether or not somebody wants to invest a substantial sum of money in an area um because they're not building these things to like use them for a few years and go out of business they're not they're not building with him with the anticipation that in 10 years we might just have to reconfigure and sell it as a warehouse because the widget is all of a sudden no longer usable like this is something that is here to stay it it's not data is not going anywhere anytime soon um but I'm G to ask you a hard one would you live next one yeah for sure why um I've been to so many of these and really as a um as an industry it used to be a bunker right uh hidden underground we'd burm it up and we try to keep it as secret as possible um but nowadays we're standing these things up in the middle of neighborhoods across the street from everywhere else um it's a Concrete building right it looks like a distribution center on the where on the outside um the these people want to be good neighbors a lot of these giant hypers scales come into communities and do a lot of good uh resources giving back um you know whether Community involvement and all those other things which is obviously fantastic uh for those areas and those groups um but it's it's a building that Standalone there's not a lot of traffic coming in and out of these things um the complaints of the noise obviously there there's other complaints of noise that we've heard um with things like Bitcoin mining right where maybe it's in the middle of nowhere and there wasn't any rules and regulations and it's an open Warehouse with a bunch of these servers all that inside server noise that you're hearing coming right outside and that's a lot of noise right um these bigger data centers in in areas that have rules and regulations around noise are built specifically for that with sound barrier walls um putting you know sound B and attenuation and things on all the equipment so the the noise you'll hear is like I said when the when the power goes out right storm comes through everybody's got power out you might hear the generators um there's a a constant hum maybe on some of these things there again that was a an older technology and an older use that we used to put thousands and thousands of these dry coolers on the roof and now some of these hyperscalers are kind of getting away from that um and doing more of a watercooled solution with a few fans outside uh versus hundreds and hundreds right with that with that cold h um with any development there's going to be something different than you had before always right um but but in my view over the last 20 years i' I've seen us getting better as an industry um they're prettying up these things and a lot of the the companies now that are selling data centers are making them beautiful on the outside right um back in 2008 I did one that was way back in a bunker you couldn't see it from any road anywhere but the city made us put fancy windows on the outside and it looked great um but there again that was just the city requirement of of what was necessary to go in there um now these folks are starting to build these things pretty because they're fun environments to be at they're places that will always use forever um so so they're making them fancy buildings now um so there again is just how how do we as a community come together and say this is what it should look like act like smell like uh be um you know that's obviously not not my place to say but I've I've really enjoyed the industry and and if there was a sore thumb I wouldn't be a part of this right I was dumping waste somewhere else and and polluting all these other things I wouldn't want any part of it um but it's the excitement of the fact that everything's now connected to this data center how do I um put my professional in input into this thing and make it make it even better I appreciate that um I assume I mean we'll have access to you via de if there's questions that come up or things as proposals you know may or may not come forward if yeah I mean I'm here to answer questions right my whole goal is just to to spread what it is um and then we can talk through if it's good or bad or ugly or all that other stuff but there again is just the the the high level parts and pieces and what do we use it for and why would why why is it here appreciate that yeah any other comments or questions no anything from our team I I did just want to point out it again I know we've said it earlier that Tom is not affiliated with any proposed projects or any rumored projects or anything like that he is absolutely a neutral um expert in the field that was recommended To Us by the state of Minnesota so I do want to um just recognize that and appreciate the fact that he was able and willing to come here and talk to us about data centers to get some facts out there so that people can um hear from Tom and ask him questions and just like we wanted our expert from the environmental side to be here with us as well so I thank them both for coming tonight very much so thank you ma'am all right any committee updates at all nicker Steve no anything no I got nothing Lyn well I would just like to highlight our next scheduled work session is a joint work session with the Planning Commission and Council and that will be tomorrow in council chambers starting at 4M and at that meeting we're going to have an introduction to track um development team really an introduction to the team data center overview why Farmington infrastructure needs noise and traffic job Creations economic and Community benefits sustainability and xfs so again that's tomorrow same spot at 4M awesome thank you I don't have anything else to add so that we look for a motion to adjourn motion second motion by next second by Steve all in favor say I hi rejourn at 6:36 [Music] [Music]