Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liility and justice for all. All right, we'll move on to item number two, citizens comments. An opportunity for folks to address council for up to three minutes. typically reserve a time for issues and items that are not on. Okay, moving on. Um, our first item is item A. >> Oh, are you hear >> Jill? I was saying uh citizens comments for items not on the agenda. >> Okay. >> Um Okay, moving on. Uh item A, sketch plan review for Warwick property. I believe Miss Good Road will tee this up for us. >> You may members of the council. Um staff received a sketch plan application from North Companies. Um we got Jeff Cook here along with his consultant Josh McKini um for the 25 acre property formerly part of the Warwig estate which is south of Kenwood Trail and east of Vipa. The property is currently under contract and as a sketch plan we are just seeking some preliminary information and feedback. Um we share it with the planning commission. Most of the time um sketch plans are only reviewed by staff but we shared it with the planning commission and then back in front of you. So this is not considered a formal application. They haven't submitted a preliminary flat or any type of actual formal application um yet. The site is currently split, guided, and zoned, meaning the 25 acres has two land use classifications with two corresponding um and similar zoning classifications. One of those on the west portion is OP or office park. In office park, the only other location for office park is adjacent to the industrial park. And OP zoning has been changed over time and is now very similar to the I1 or light industrial zoning designation. As such, it allows manufacturing, warehouse, distribution, those types of leases up to six stories. So that's currently what half the zoning district currently allows. The other half of that property is or a little over half is C3 general commercial allowing for just that a wide range of commercial uses um due to site constraints and we talked about this back in February with limited visibility with the rail cars restricted access points into the site lack of good traffic circulation um in future uh resulting in what we feel the future sure development of an entirely commercial site would be challenging. So if you recall the applicant and he'll share that plan um submitted an initial concept plan to the council that was for all residential. It included a multifamily building as well as town homes up to 365 units in total with a much higher density than was being proposed today. The applicant has revised that plan after hearing um really what the council was looking towards and the direction at that time was preserving as much commercial as feasible understanding there are site constraints and then also looking for retail uses that would support um that park. So, they have responded and I'll allow Jeff to do a deeper dive into the plan. Um, but they did revise it um meeting those um requests and then they have trimmed down the multifamily to market retail homes um with a much less dense type of development. The planning commission did have a conversation at their work session last week. They um I'm just going to share kind of a summary of their comments. They agree the OP or office park zoning is not a correct land use and zoning um or it um understanding all the different uses that would be allowed. Acknowledge that development of all nonresidential so either all commercial or the combination as it is today is really not feasible due to the access site constraints. They like the entertainment and retail additions that this plan offers. um they agree it needs additional traffic and parking analysis and they did like the medium density type of proposed housing as it brings another type of housing option to our housing stock. So I'm going to turn it over to Jeff. Hopefully the mouse works over there and he has a presentation for you. >> So again for those who entered my name is Jeff Cook. I'm one of the nurse companies. Uh we're a company based in Twin Cities here. Uh been in real estate development for right around 15 years. Um and excited to kind of talk through this with you. Um so again, what we have today is just kind of a site concept approval. So uh this is the site that we're talking about. Uh the Warwick site. Um it's 25 acres currently used as agricultural. So, it's tax assessed as such. So, it's uh impact to the city of $1,700 in taxes. Future land use, as Tina mentioned, 9.94 acres is zoned for commercial and 15.96 is zoned for office park. Um so our our proposal actually gives you slightly more commercial um and instead of the office park use which planning commission agreed was not the highest and best use we're proposing 15.67 acres of medium density residential. Um as Tina mentioned this is the first uh site plan that many of you that worked here in February saw. Um it was a more dense product. So, we had a four-story multif family building um right here that was approximately 200 units. Um there was 165 town homes and then there's a daycare/strip retail type use in the north west corner here. So preliminary feedback we got was most of you were opposed to the high density residential the apartment building because of the hype um four stories u right next to park and some of the the single family residential um we did hear a lot of your feedback the public's feedback specifically being more experiential retail um one of you actually mentioned the pickle ball court concept brewery um ancillary are uses that are supportive of the antlers park and so we took that to parked and basically eliminated entire apartment building. Um so it's a lot less dense in terms of residential component. So we took it from 365 uh units down to 165 town home units um with the centralized clubhouse here. facilities. Obviously, not a ton of change to the the medium density residential. The the main change, as Tina mentioned, was this kind of mixed use, entertainment, experiential detail piece that we're talking about here. Um so, the site in general is overparked. Um across all all these different work sessions, we've heard traffic is a concern uh specifically with Anthic Park. Um, and that is, you know, attributive to the success of the the park that the public really loves it. Um, you know, I think one thing to keep in mind is that, uh, that traffic is usually 3 months to four months out of the year. So, call it a quarter of the year there's traffic concerns. The other three quarters of the year, um, there's not not as much traffic. Um, >> so this is this is kind of again the current land use um showing kind of what what was proposed in the 2040 comp plan that the city of Lakeville created um and what we're proposing in terms of commercial location and medium density. So the one thing to note here is that we slipped this red component up to the the north side because it's a much better traffic flow. Uh there's a traffic signal here as well from that perspective. Um so this just kind of shows you why we we change it. Just kind of shows the like ease of access to the site. Down here you see there's a lot more turns. Um and you know not a signalized intersection right here. This is the commercial component. Um so this is the what we mainly revised with our last plan. So, building A is kind of that experiential retail kind of pickle ball type use. Building B is is more kind of strip strip retail along with a restaurant um user. We do have an active restaurant user and a user for building A that we've been talking to at length. Um but obviously we don't have anything under contract with them. Um, the other thing to note is that there's a centralized closet here, kind of a green space, turf space. The other piece is to, you know, potentially put some sort of a stage on here for live music to mainly kind of have the public engage in enjoy these open space here. Here's some of the designs. um kind of goes with the the Scandinavian architecture that is prevalent in uh my designs um but also kind of mimics the Hampers Park design and concept, the use of some of the whites and blacks and natural woods. Here just some visiting images that we pulled from various locations just kind of showing how that could look or the public could interact with it um as a nice benefit kind of again driving that experiential retail kind of piece. Um here's some of the the concept images. This is the project uh that that is completed up in Maple Grove, Minnesota. So, this community is 28 town homes. Just kind of shows how it's laid out. We have a lot of nice finishes. It's not, you know, builder grade. It's nicer quality materials. Um, a nice pool pickle ball court playground turf. So, a lot of amenities. There's a gym. There's a golf simulator. Um, you know, really, as Tina mentioned, we're seeing this kind of use as a as a diversifier to your housing stock. So, City of Lakeville had a housing study done in 2023. And one of the prevalent issues is or one of the highlights that they suggested, Maxfield suggested was the build to rent concept being a nice diversifier for the community, providing a a different housing option that isn't currently available to the residents of Lakeville being a rental product that um you know the cost of home ownership right now is actually a lot more than what it is to rent. Um, and we're seeing a price differential of $500 to $1,000 per month as a benefit to uh Lakeville residents to have a different type of footing option. Here's some of the interior finishes of what the product look like um in terms of the town home. some nice interior finishes um that you can see and kind of a standard >> home to um yeah just a a quick snapshot as Tina mentioned and I mentioned a little bit earlier traffic has been a concern um from planning commission as well as a lot of the residents understandably um we did initially reach out to TC2 who's a traffic consultant they haven't obviously done a full traffic study that would be something we do as part of the full application. Uh they did run a couple scenarios. I'm looking at current state what office park um and commercial daily trips um generator would be. Um and it's anywhere from 11 to 31% more traffic if we just developed the the product as you see in the 2040 pound plan um versus our residential component. It would drive less traffic. And so obviously you guys would see a lot more detail to that. Um but from a high level we've asked our consultants and and that's what they're telling us is that with your product it's anywhere from 11 to 31% less traffic per day than you know if we just developed it as a city of light builds. >> So that's under the current zoning. It might not be changed. Okay. I went back. Yeah. I don't know if we open up for public comments. No problem. Thank you. >> Okay. Sure. >> So, are you doing? >> Yeah. Okay. Um, thank you for for that. A couple things I want to note just about traffic. I think um just for reference, if you look at IPA in 202 already, it's a disaster. um as is 22 second and that little fronted road by Speedway. So I and that's not seasonal. It's morning and afternoon for school traffic and coming home. I wouldn't say that it's that's year round. So just as a as an aside, so this area already has a lot of traffic pressures. Um which is why we have a lot of conversations with the county about how we we work on on County Road 50. Um, you know, my perspective, I think, you know, rethinking the commercial makes a lot of sense. I don't I know we don't really want to get into the specifics today. I don't think it's got enough parking stalls. If you think about if you really are going to make it a destination place, the amount of overflow parking is already having to deal with it in the neighborhood in Lake View Elementary. And if it's anything like music venue that Caspersonson draws, it's just too many. It's just it's just never going to work. Um then the other thing I just want to share is my opinion on the amount of units here has not changed since we emailed back in July. So this is I mean to me this part of the city can't support 165 units. So that's that's why that people ask a question for us. Could you explain to us the exception parcel? Is that that that's not under contract? >> Correct. Correct. Yeah. So, good clarification. So, uh Tim Milan owns this parcel. I have spoken with him. Um his daughter currently lives in this house. Um she's looking for purchasing option. Um so, he's we've discussed he's open to selling, but his daughter's not really Yeah, John. >> Um, so I like the mix. Um, but I have to agree with the traffic stuff. Um, and the other thing is is that I just get a real sense that that commercial area. I think that's good use. I think it's appropriate, especially to be a mix, but I just have a sense that that's going to turn into overflow parking. Um, so I think that really needs to be thought about in terms of size and parking and no, I don't think anybody's going to treat that as just its own thing. Anyway, going to go there. I think you're going to see some vice versa. Um, I support housing on this. I you know in my mind the problem is this is a difficult area because of the railroad tracks because you have really two points of access that are really harm but I think 160 something units is high. I kind of envisioned housing along 202 and housing along 50. Um and then you know you have a clubhouse there and stuff but maybe more green space maybe more parking. Um, so I I've always said I think the housing we have housing here along 20250. Um, the middle is is where there's a lot, but I just the other piece is I'd really be interested in seeing a traffic study because IPA is um and to second are they're at a burden now. So I I like the concept. I like the design. I like especially with the uh the community area. I just really get on on the traffic piece and I just think there's a reality that a lot of I think commercial area could end up being should >> uh I won't argue with what's previously been said. I think we're in the right direction with the retail piece here. Um but you know like that feels like it's still too dense. I mean labs looking at the elevations of the growth properties recently build a similar product. Um part of why the apartment complex was was not ideal was the elevation and density and this just feels like apartments in a different style. Um, so I guess that that would be my my feedback to at least the threestory uh units. I know it would be amazing there was two story and three story ones. Um, but the the tall peaks on a threetory uh condo, you know, pretty much like the apartment cond from from the surrounding neighborhood. Yeah, Dan. >> And I'm probably on far end of the spectrum about this. I'm not convinced that that residential should go here. Um I had persistent concerns about taking commercial u commercial land and and putting housing there, which is what we've done. And I think we're going to have a long-term problem of have the services to support the population uh here. Um I do I do agree however with the planning commission's observation on the OU designation. I think that's probably outdated and kind of a was a placeholder. Um you know the I'm I'm also just not convinced on the commercial argument that um I mean this is really this propertyy's been in play for what a couple months now just a few months even though everybody's looked at it for generations going to go there. So I I'm I'm not not in the place where I would move out. So that's that's kind of what I had. Any other comments? Okay, with all that in mind and we're all here. This is going to be a very long process as we continue to talk about the property. I'm happy to now open it up to public comments. >> Please come up to the podium and state your name and address. Scott Newman and I live on the south side of Lake Marian. Um, do the the 165 units that are proposed here, what is the driveway space if there's only one SP stall there. Okay, if there's two, but there's still only 30 additional parking spots in the whole on that original drawing. So, I don't think that's even enough to accommodate people that live there. If they have people and guests, where are they going to park? Out on the street. Uh, it >> says 669 stalls is what it says. >> Okay. But the additional ones that were blank for people to come in and just park. I thought there was >> 3:30 visitor. Yeah, these right here and right here. I'm just going up the number on the right street. >> All right. Um there you guys already mentioned there's only three exits out. Um 202nd and dot is such a nightmare already on the weekends. You actually have to go south in order to go north. You got to turn around. Um, Antler Park that goes out into the uh, turnaround. That's going to be a very complex area. Um, one of the things about IPAN 50 with the daycare. Okay. The railroad track already goes across up there. Is there not a possibility of putting a road out to here and have it going east only? Then people want to go north. >> They don't control access on the county road. >> Huh? >> The city can't control access on the county road. That's the challenge. I mean, that would be a a solution. Um the I think the entertainment area and the daycare and that I think those are going to become Hey, I don't want to walk all the way from the school. Let's go park in the daycare lot cuz it's right across the street from the park. So, let's just park there and walk across. And I think anything you put over there is going to wind up having people park there just because they don't want to walk all the way from the school. Um um and I I think I guess in my view that I think they should put more parking there for Antlers Park so that they can use it and then try to find places or businesses like maybe a bowling alley. Uh um other things that relate to entertainment that people can use that parking space for that. A restaurant is a good idea. I think it's more of a commercial type plot than a residential type plot. That's just my opinion. others. I guess maybe just for efficiency if you do want to speak maybe just line up at this corner here and then we'll just kind of take care 9715 20th Street West. You may recall that many of us were in the same room on February 24th, 2025. We were here to discuss this very same warwig outlet outlaw F. I would like to refer you back to the minutes from that meeting under section B, third paragraph, which states, Good Road and McKenna gave a presentation regarding potential development on a 25 acre lot for sale by Antlers Park. Good road emphasized that nothing had been presented to the city and everything being presented tonight is what a proposal could look like. Actually, in listening to the audio today from the work session, and I am paraphrasing here, Mr. McKenna stated that he basically just made it up. He had nothing to go from. It was just his ideas. Mrs. Goodro, Ms. Good road stated that unlike the 210th property which had a developer or potential buyer, she knew this property would be up for sale and would experience similar similar zoning requests. So she just thought it was a good idea to include it. It seems amazing that that almost same proponent proposal minus the apartment building but adding a focal ex I don't even know how you say that word retail space is before us and the remaining 165 market rate two and threetory town homes are almost unchanged now I'd like to refer to the memorandum to the planning commiss committee from Tina good roads dated September 10th, 2025, sketch plan review, paragraph 3. In February, the applicant presented an initial concept plan to the city council during a work session which included apartments and town homes. At that time, the council would directed the applicant to preserve as much commercial area as feasible while recognizing the site limitations. The council also expressed support for retail uses that would complement Antlers Park. So my first question of the night, were we being lied to in February or was the planning committee being lied to on September 10th? Was the city working with this applicant in February as the applicant's own filings indicate? And did the city know that that the city council know there was an applicant because you all seemed as surprised as we were. The only thing that's changed from that meeting to this is that outlot D, which is the property behind me, has been sold. That's medium density. Um, and all likelihood that is what was being built there. It's already possible we're adding 112 units to the area. The impact on a plava and the park is substantial or you have to make a right turn to go left and your studies are useless because 31% increase over an entire day doesn't take into account time banks of when already it's impassible. My second question is what's the plan to fix the problem? We know that the traffic pattern is a problem. This particular parcel, which hasn't been up for sale very long, I'm encouraging you take your time, picture issues, seek out other ideas, other uses. The city has no timeline here. We have have it in there's over 3,000 I believe units currently either plotted and that was in June plotted or under um development. Um, take your time and don't be pushed into reszoning an issue that doesn't in an area that doesn't come. Wait for somebody that wants to put in low density. A developer will come. You haven't had to beg developers. You guys are in an inevitable position here of being the fastest growing city. wait for the developer that wants to develop this land in the use that best suits it. In the meantime, fix the traffic problems. >> Thank you. >> Um I'm Kim Nubbie. I live at um at the four-way stop by Antlers. Um I wasn't planning on talking or anything, but I agree with everything that's been said. And another concern that no one has brought up on 2002 Street West since I live right on that street is there's no sidewalks. Um potentially for a developer, people are walking in the field. People are walking or biking just on that tiny gravel and it's very unsafe. And then we see through Apava and 22nd like emergency vehicles just fly. So that's something to think about for the future with more with it being developed than just having like a wider, you know, you're not touching it at all. It's very unsafe. I'm surprised there's not been any accidents. It's scary watching them fly through. So just something else. >> Thank you. got questions. Patty McDonald, I live on Lake Marian. Um, and then I have McDonald Eye Care on 50. So, I I have questions because I've sat for many planning. What do we envision Lakeville to be like in the next 10 years? I think I've done three of them. What's the age demographic that you guys see having that need for that those units? I'd say the primary need right now is the barbell being, you know, both sing young families with kids and 55 plus that are looking to downsize out of their 4,000t house that want to live in a maintenance-free community. 55 and plus isn't going to want two and three stories. >> They aren't. It's not. And that was a demographic that on the last time or two times ago that we felt we needed more housing that would fit that niche because what is your rent going to go forward? What is your market study right now that you investors said this looks good? I like the two stories. Obviously, the three stories is a lot. So, I I'm totally with you there, but um 55 plus are pretty active still. Um and they're able to they like the benefit of the the twotory product. Um, specifically to your question on rental price, it's 2,600 for the two beds and around 3,000 for three beds, which again is if you put that into I know it sounds like a lot, but if you put it into a 30-year amortization schedule and and look at the median household value of in the city of Lakeville, >> it's anywhere from 5 to $1,500 cheaper per month to rent here than to buy >> right now. in today's environment. I I just am concerned about the land use or the lack of green space. That was one of the things that was disheartening when we found when I looked the first time at antlers and went the grass is all gone. To me, there's not much green space and I'm not going to support high density or and medium medium density. To me, this is high. So, My name is Rick Ringisen. I live at 200085 Italy Avenue on the first house north of Antlers Park. Um, I was one of the last employees when Antlers Park was a private industry and hosted company picnics and things like that. Actually met my wife there. So, um, I've watched the park. My family's owned the property since the 40s. Um, so I'm very intimate with all of it. Uh, I know I know George and I know where he's at. But for me, it's not just about this piece of land. It's about this land over here that's going to be developed that's already in touch. So, we're talking bodies and people that are going into here. And we have space across the Kenwood Trail, too, as well. We have a traffic circle, which is great. This is a four-way stop and it goes right into a neighborhood and it goes around the lake. And this is and then we we also have pedestrian pathway here too. Um kids come off the top of the hill and through that light. They're going pretty fast. Joe already talked about the fact that this has become a right turn only for us in at certain times of the day. night right now not a problem but in the morning when school's happening and and we're going and we don't have like an hour of school our I'm a district employee our our school in the morning we have staggered start times all morning long and the way our boundaries are set up everything south of Highway 50 and west of 35W goes to south so a lot of people from the north side of town have to get to the south According to our director of transportation, this is the number two road in our community for bus traffic. All right? I mean, it's buses all day long going on here and and it's and it's really busy. In fact, if you go here, you'll find buses parked in here because that's a nice lot for them to sit in before between their runs to do those kind of things. So it it is super busy and um yes the park is busy in you know the 3 months in the summer and then the other nine months we're dealing with the school traffic and that that's a real thing. So if there was another way out of there you know like you're looking at this but you're going right into a business here. Now, on this end, you got trucks moving. And like I said with the people here, um, if you're going to put an exit here, you're going to have to make that right turn only. As people come, I can't I have a hard time taking a right-hand turn if the light is green because people come so fast and they're coming around the corner. It's a It is a nice road, so they are moving at a pretty good speed. So, so that's really an issue. Um, to me this is high density. When you start looking at two and three stories, you're talking about kids and I see not a single bike path in here. And that's what we're best known for in our community. There should be a bike path through here so people can move and get this thing. And I don't know if you've had any experience with pedestrians at roundabouts. It's not a good mix. All right. It's it there there's there everybody says roundabouts are safer not for pedestrians. Okay? Because if I'm going into a roundabout, I'm looking left and where's the pedestrian on the right. Okay? So, we got to slow that down. And if anybody's been around schools when kids are out, we have a large number of kids. Buses don't transport the majority of our kids anymore. Most of our kids are driven or they're driving themselves for those kind of things. So that's that's a problem. I look over here and I see the milein property and if you know somebody must have talked to the milein because if that was my property and you were having this meeting tonight I'd be here. How dare you draw a plan including my land on those type of things. I mean and it's a daycare. Oh it's a strip retail. That's better. I like that. All right. But it's still land that it's easier to make a plan when you have the whole the whole tract to do those kind of things. >> Pardon? >> Wrap it up. >> Yeah, exactly. >> No, wrap it up. >> Okay. Sorry. All right. So, the number two road. I just want you to know that I think the city should look into instead of looking at park fees, look into trading land for park fees here so that we can maybe get some green space in here. There's there's going to be kids and there's no place for kids to play other than the street. I mean, there's not a front yard. It's just parking. And there's only there's like 30 spots like Scott said. That's enough room for 16 or 17% of the people to have a visitor there. And you're right. I like what you said. Parking is going to go back and forth. People from the park are going to go over here and park and vice versa. They're going to have to do those things. And I'm very concerned about Antler Park because Antler Park is a jewel right now. It's it's beautiful. the the remodeled people use the park well. People are great. But if we start throwing 600, 700 people, 1,000 people, including over here, and these people are going to use it because they're going to see that as an attraction to live there, it we are going to take what is really our our best park and turn it into a park that people aren't going to want to be there, right? Because it's too crowded. So, thank you. >> Sorry, I know you're just in the Joyce a >> Yeah. on my way. >> Yeah, >> that should be the mate. >> Um, okay. Any others? Again, I'm just I'm trying not to cut you off at three minutes, but I really like to keep it at three minutes. >> Hi, Peter Zeland live at 12119 Lucern Trail. um just to on that on that piece of property. I think that piece of property, it'd be a good piece of property for the city to own and to have a a nice community center there to go in conjunction with the park and you know that that that other property that they're talking about behind the Lawrencees there is already being just about ground broke there. But um to have a to have a nice community center right there to accent town, you know, our downtown area, beautiful area with all the restaurants and stuff. Now, if we had a community center there for kids and whatnot, you know, whether it be uh an an ice skating rink, pickle ball courts, just anything anything in that order, you know, that that property there would suit that, you know, for a th00and 2,000 people in and out of there in a day or something. Uh using ice rinks, pickle ball courts, stuff like that along with the traffic concerns that everybody's talking about. But um I don't like the I don't like the changing changing this to the residential. I think it should stay stay the the business and I think that the uh a community center would be perfect right there. >> I don't want to be glib, but if you find me $50 million, I'll build a community center. >> Yes. >> But you got to find the 50 million. >> Okay. >> Let's work on it. >> Anybody else? >> Okay. >> Nope. probably going to have people that haven't gone. >> You already answered one of my questions. I wasn't sure if it was a rental name or Jim Stafford. Sorry, Lake um Southside Lake Mary. Um you answered my question. It's rental. I didn't realize that. That is there any reason that this can't be higherend single family homes instead? >> Uh you can convince the land seller to lower the land price. Well, I'm just asking for an alternative to everybody's concerns. You know, traffic, volume, high density, all that sort of stuff. >> When it was raised to the planning commission, they they had mentioned it's not the right fit for single family homes. Um, you know, meaning since it's so high traffic on all the different roads. Um, it's I mean, lots of lots around here are selling for I don't know what 150 200,000 somewhere in there. Um, and if these were higherend homes, it just seems like because of the lake and the attraction to the lake in that area of town, there's a lot of higherend homes around North High School and and South High School. Uh, just seems like economically it might work out to put higherend homes. Million-dollar homes are not a big deal these days. Put million-dollar homes in there and you probably have a third maybe or a quarter of the people that you're proposing. That's all. >> You can take off that. Okay. Bob Ericson, 1908 Enale Drive. Mayor, House members, staff, thank you for this opportunity. Um I think most of the ex concerns have been expressed um not in a context of not in my backyard but more about uh the meaningful use of the property considering the challenges that the city council is well aware of regarding uh the transportation aspects. Uh Rick, you're right. It's the number two route for school buses from 7:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. every day for the entire district uses a PA which is often times referred to as school road. Um, some of the things that came to my attention was the and I had residents call me that talked to me, the Zans, the Stoies, uh, the Rang Eisens, people that have lived here a long time who've adjusted to change, I think, appropriately, and who've uh, appreciated the challenges that have been shared with regard like to antlers. to the mayor's credit, uh the restaurant that was expressed concerns about on this site have worked out quite well. So, and there was concerns about that at the beginning as well. Um I'd like to know what and um community development director could respond to this at the end here. Um what mix what's a mixeduse PUB definition for this property? what's the the the multitude of uses that can occur under a mixeduse PUD and would that be a precedent that could impact the land use on the property immediately north of 202nd Street um which is a concern of residents uh as you've heard this evening George Wy told me 35 years ago that he believed uh and he wasn't in uh at that moment in history wasn't particularly excited about the uh APA being upgraded. U and we had some challenges calling including a special assessment that he didn't particularly appreciate. But he he had a vision for commercial office park and was active when the comprehensive plan was adopted. And if he were standing here today, of course, that development wouldn't occur because he'd continue to farm the property. >> 30 seconds. I I'll go quick. So to me it's the first step in this process has to be the transportation challenge and the county has to be brought into this conversation and there has to be meaningful view of what to be what needs to be done as was demonstrated by whites um and the and the u I care demonstrated how you can effectively effectively make something work in the the form of new ingress and egress which needs to happen on this property just like it happened effectively by the city staff and the city council planning commission when that was done and I think everybody would agree how well that's worked and something of that magnitude that focus can occur here as well but it has to go first not chasing an opportunity uh that is evolved from the estate of George Warley. >> We've we've gone about 15 minutes longer than we planned on this item. So I just knew that happy to take it. This is up. We I got an email somebody was trying to get in to make a comment, but I don't. It's the reason why we don't >> the map. >> I'll give you 90 seconds. When you mention the railroad, when you mention the railroad, what do you have to do to possibly put an exit going east? >> It's not the railroad, it's county, it's the county, you know, >> well, with the county, >> maybe that's a solution, but to help on 202 >> I would say I think we always have conversations. I think the bigger conversation with them has been to get in on heritage and they've been very hesitant. So just far as president goes first. >> Yes. >> 90 seconds. >> Okay. Jeff 19371 Jersey Avenue. Um somebody point out the property that's just south of um 20th there. I mean the highway 50. There's also the north one across from Arena. That's going to be developed too and that's going to bring more traffic to that area. So that needs to be considered as well. Number two, we've added a ton of rental properties. The one that's going up in 35W in the corner by Target that's being developed right now. I don't know how many units that is, but that's a tremendous more amount of apartments as well as we prove the aeros apartments up by fleet far. So again, more apartment opportunities there for people to live in. And number three, um the estate, somebody said the point about the estate. I know they're not going to get as much money, but that it's not zoned for what they want to get money for. So yeah, they might get money from this party, and I, you know, I agree with what they want to do, but this is not the right spot for it. And if we just say, "Hey, sorry. It's is zoned this way." Eventually, they're going to find a buyer for that property the way it's currently zoned. We can't keep on reszoning stuff because somebody wants us to resone stuff. That's it. Thank you. >> That was 66. >> Would have a few seconds for me. >> Yep. >> Wasn't necessarily going to come up. Well, we have 24. >> Yeah, 24. >> Uh, Scott Danielson, 20347 Indiopath. Um, relatively new resident, been here 5 years. So, I appreciate all of you that have been here for 20, 30, and 40 years welcoming us into it. Um, this was kind of a destination spot for us. Jeez, getting emotional. Um, so I I can appreciate trying to find affordable housing and being diverse in housing needs. Um, I think we have plenty of like you just made the point, we have plenty of rental if it's needed. We have for the 55 plus I I still, you know, this doesn't cut it. I like I agree with the statements on that. um being in the station in life where I am, we have two school age kids and they're active. I drive by PABA 20 times a day. So if you do a traffic study, 20 of them are me. Um they're in hockey. So I am at arenas all day long. Um, so when it comes to that, I just think being in other towns with hockey tournaments, sport tournaments, sporting events, I think we should use this as a commercial avenue. It's close. It's right across the street from Ames. It's close enough to HI from a hockey parent that you could put something there for teams to go to. We have no place in town for tournament for tournament. I mean, you can go to Baldi's for a little bit. It's okay. But when you got 15, 20, 30 teams in town, there's no place for them to go to do anything. And bring outside money in. I know this is a tax thing. We all know cities function on taxes. Property tax is a huge part of that, but bring in money from Woodbury. Bring in money from Eden Prairie and Edina. Let's take their money instead of just milking the residents for it. Um, thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, only with collected sale. >> Okay. Um, council, any other comments or questions? I think you got some feedback from us today. I don't doesn't sound like consensus to for the zoning and happy to have further conversation, but I think that's kind of where we're at. So, all right. With that, we'll move on to our next item. East Community Park survey results and preferred math or comment. master plan concept. I'll turn over our parks director, Mr. Macy Archer. >> You don't want to talk about green space. We're going to talk about green space. >> Thank you. Nobody. There you go. Everything. >> Uh, good evening, Mayor and City Council. Um I'm excited to share uh East Community Park uh the latest draft of the master plan for the development. Um so as a quick reminder, East Community Park is the last park project tied to the 2021 park bond referendum. Uh so this park is in design currently this year. Uh will be completed here uh or is scheduled for construction in 2026. Uh so the park was um went through a planning process with ISG and the consultants. Uh they developed three different master planning concepts uh based off of uh previous community feedback um from previous designs and that was tailored down to two ultimate designs which went out for public comment. Uh those were available for public survey uh both through um signs that were located in the parks on the northeast side of town and then also through over a thousand postcards that went out to residents. Uh ISG did a presentation for our direct commission um and through that the design has been uh final to one concept um one preferred concept and kind of blending together the best pieces of those designs. So, the area that's outlined here is uh truly the park that we're talking about for East Community Park. As a quick reminder, we already have an existing access to East on the southern portion of the park uh where we've got parking lot, playground, uh and um the diamond. So, scrolling down here quick, uh over 200 uh comments were received on the park design um between the two concepts, concept A, concept B, and that's just to give a title there. Um the the concepts were were kind of similar as far as layouts but in meeting with park recision ultimately the concept B is the one that uh is going to be moving forward or is recommended to go forward. Um reviewing some of the important components and this is where I would say we took really the best components from concept A and concept B and blended them together into this design. So that includes uh overlook in the park. there was a lot of importance placed on trails and connectivity. Um the four season restroom building um was an important concept as well and that is tied to the part of the development that we're doing with county. Um so we'll be receiving approximately $400,000 from the county towards the project to help fund that as part of the North Creek Greenway. Uh but aside from that, natural play, dog park areas, and then one of the other big components that was focused on was access to the water. So I'm just going to skip to that one. The concept that they were leaning towards really leaned a lot into um they called it heritage, but really leaning into kind of the farming aspect or farming um history of the property. And so leaning into that also uh tying in the branch and farm and some of those ideas is really where this final plan came together. >> Joe, was there any conversation to at any point like to mimic whitetail woods a little bit with like camper cabins in this area? Is that like a little bit more than we want to fight off or chew or >> Yeah. So we uh one of the concepts and in fact one of the concepts that didn't go out was that community cabin thought process and what we were finding and we we noted it through um some of the public engagements that we did. Uh we also did a pop-up event at Panrog where we took feedback from the public. It is leaning a lot towards a Ritter Farm aspect. um and it was heading down the road of environmental learning and it was going down kind of that route and we've got rid of it kind of in that that aspect. So >> that's where I think this plan makes sense. >> Yeah. Y um so you can see some of their inspiration pieces here, some of their inspiration images uh that that help develop the plan. Uh but zooming in here then for you. Um the master plan itself um shifts parking um and access into the park uh into the uh south portion of this part of the property. Um, part of the reason why that was important through public feedback was to have this park function not as two separate facilities, but truly as one park and to increase access to the restrooms on the more active side of the facility where we've got the athletic deck and and those items. Um, we added then uh a large dog park area, so over two acres for that as well as the small dog park area. Again, based off of public feedback, where I would say this is potentially going to be different than what we have at uh Ritter Park is that it'll have more of the play structures. So, some of the agility pieces, some of those uh dog playground type pieces, which is a little bit different than what we've got in other locations. We have this open lawn space identified. It could technically be an athletic deck. It's not our intention to program this as an athletic deck. Uh it was be something we could use in an emergency really, but the intention is for that to be more just open lawn space for community. Um the other area then down here is so area 7 would be Lakeville's first community gardens. >> Uh which we're excited about. We designed this in a way in which uh we're trying to minimize maintenance while maximizing access to for the public to be able to have garden plots. The proposal is for 30 plots at this point. It's designed so that it could be doubled. We could potentially have 60 if it's uh if there's a need down the road. Otherwise, the area next to it will be used for staging area and access um making up, you know, debris and those types of things. Uh and again, I was referencing that connectivity to have the park function kind of as as one cohesive part. So, two boardwalks are proposed to connect uh to the diamond. Uh so one's the diamond and then one by the playground area again increasing access to the the forces and restrooms. And then a new playground area is proposed right around 2,000 square ft. That's about half the size of what a standard playground would be for us. Most are 3500 and 4,000 um for like a neighborhood park, but adding that feature on both sides of the creek made a lot of sense. This would also be designed in a way where it would be more farm themed. So, um you'll see in some of the uh example imagery when I zoom down. Um but one of the other components I wanted to highlight aside from the the shelter is and this was a concept that was taken from uh concept A is a larger plaza area. So a larger space for gatherings as well as tiered seating um step seating that is going to help to create a really nice view of the lake. Uh so that was taken from uh concept day. Uh before I move on, uh outlook proposed uh for the northeast portion. So there's a nice null on top of the hill where environmental services have been doing some work. So an outlook area there with some seating. And then there's uh three proposed fishing areas and a paddic launch. So those are kind of those access to the water amenities that I was uh referencing. I'm going to scroll down quick though just so you can see again uh kind of the um examples some of the inspiration that they were pulling from. So um play areas, play structures, the seating areas, an example of the community garden. So raised bed community garden is what we're looking at with that. We're also going to be exploring um higher raised beds for accessibility needs. Um, so a combination of both that tiered seating that I was referencing towards the lake, these would be some examples of that. So whether it be composite decking or whether that be out of concrete, uh, the thought process was this would be a great space for, for example, puppet wagon. And it's designed so you can put a puppet wagon in front, built-in seating, or if you do other types of presentation, presentations or events, that would work well. Uh, the water amenities or water access. I'm going to show you these two. So, kayak launch um would be this is an example of that. And then a shade structure and fishing area is what we're looking at for some of those other improvements which I think would make a really nice gathering spot if you're walking the trail in the day sunset. Great spot to hang out. Otherwise, there's not a lot of shade on some areas of that lake. So, having shade structure, I think will work in really well and add something a little bit different than what we've got in other locations. um the play structures that I was referencing, some of those farm food structures, this leans more into that concept. So, not a traditional playground, um but leaning more into animal structures and those types of things was really the concept. And then you can see pulling in again some of those natural amenities, the connector pieces, but some uh some natural play features. >> What's the size comparison to uh the Ritter Farm Dog Park? >> Yep. Yep. So, River Farm Dog Park is right around 7 acres total. Um, it's around an acre and a half of that is small dog. The rest is large dog. So, smaller, but this is a this is a generous size dog park. >> Bigger than >> bigger than we originally proposed. That is correct. Yep. Based off the feedback. >> Uh, and then in here you can just see some of the other uh improvements that they've been pulling from um kind of inspiration. again interpretive signage which we'll need along the the greenway and this ties into similar signage that we have by Antlers Park where we've been working with the county otherwise green infrastructure where we can help to deal with water infiltration and those types of things. So um so that's a very quick review of what the proposal includes. Um so beyond that I can stand for any questions. >> Council questions the community garden work. >> Sure. Uh so there's a couple different ways community gardens can work. Um this is intended well so in the same way that we would release uh reservations for our kayaks which we do in February. Uh so kayak launches we would do the same thing with community garden. Uh the difference with this versus what we do with kayaks, you get essentially first rights of refusal. People tend to do different types of soil amenities for their plots. So, if you had it last year and you've amended your soil specifically, we're going to give you first crack at having access to that. Beyond that, it opens back up to the public. Uh, but from staff, it would require um little maintenance on the front end seasonally. Um, but we would help with getting it uh cleaned up at the end of season. We'll have a bin for um vegetation so that that can be taken off site. Um, so from a staff perspective, it's managed easily, but you're ultimately responsible for turning over your own soil and spraying and all of that. We've also, one other thing I'll add with that in the community I was in previously, we worked very closely with the garden clubs and had them available to work with uh residents as well. So if you have questions because your tomatoes I would then have a conduit for you to be able to talk to people questions. I I just I love the design they're reading in dog park I think is good especially considering mutual I I saw the plaza and it's just a word of encouragement. The first thing I saw and looked out when I looked at that skateboard that's the very first thing I thought so but I I know that there are designs and materials that you can use that will limit the ability. I just wanted to make sure that we consider that to do rental. >> We don't rent canoes. We rent the the launches. >> Launches. >> So we rent space the racks. >> Right. We do that. >> We don't we will do that here. Yep. Yep. So this would be a new site. We currently don't have a launch site here. Um so this would be another location we can add it. We typic with the amount of available kayak storage locations we have, they're typically rented within the first day or two that we release them. They're gone incredibly fast. >> So, would Could you technically have a paddle board? Could you have a paddle board there if you wanted that instead? Like, does it matter? >> Yeah. So, you could with the way that this is being designed, you could bring in and we see that at antlers, for example, where people will bring in their own kayak. Um, so you could do you could paddle board here then. Yes. Um, East is not designed for any uh motor, not even trolling motor. >> So, is east going for >> So, yeah. >> Uh, >> big gold on >> big goldfish. Uh, east is a lake that environmental is doing a lot of work on to eliminate carbon goldfish. Um, there are there are valuable fish in the lake, especially on that northern port portion where it's deeper. Is there any resources like long-term thinking that we could to make it swimmable or is it just not everything? >> Yeah, East is really not designed as a swimmable lake partly because it's it takes a lot of water coming from the neighborhoods. Um the depth is part of that and it wasn't it's not a historic, you know, it's man-made lake. So >> um what does the shoreline look like and is thinking about changing that viewpoint at all from where it is right now? >> Yeah, so the area that's actually outlined in orange um is an area that is being designated for shoreline restoration um which would help to install native plants um but also above and beyond that will help to increase the use of the lake. Uh that's something that in our talks with Dakota County they're very interested in because of the the greenway connection and something we talked to environmental about as well. >> Yeah, it's on a very scenic location right now. And I was looking at that shelter dock, you know, and you would get kind of hidden by the overs right now. >> Yeah. So this is a little bit of a higher part of the property. Um and you're right, I actually didn't even go to that page, the shelter page. Go for it. Um shelter. Uh so that's the proposed shelter. um which has again the four season restrooms, so year- round rooms, two unisex restrooms plus uh a decent shelter space. Uh so 72 capacity is what this is being designed for. Uh the intention though, part of the reason why it was positioned on the property in this way is to get that kind of scenic view of the lake. So, >> uh I like the concept. I think it's great. I think it really adds a lot of different amenities we don't have in other places. The one thing I don't really have an answer, but just for you to think about, we were interviewing some students tonight for youth commission. One of them goes to Farmington. Just think about how we try to continually like make the people who go to Farmington schools feel very included in the city. And I know this is in theory could be a I don't know what the outreach is or whatever, but I'm just throwing that out. So maybe the ultimate frisbee team at Farmington wants to play in the open line or something like that. >> Other comments, questions? >> Great. Thanks, Jeff. It's great. Looking forward to what what's the timeline? >> So, uh, we'll take this back, tweak a couple of things. Our intention is to get the master plan to 100% by December. Uh, go out to the January, February, um, springish construction timeline. Um but 26 would be starter instruction. So >> okay and then opening 27 >> most likely. >> Yeah. Very good. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> All right. All right. Let's move on to fire department ITN solution spec contain. >> I know you're this. >> Yeah. I'm wondering we got who's who's teeing this up. I'll tee it up, mayor. Okay. Uh and then I'm gonna turn it over to Rid, our fire inspector. >> All right. >> So, uh we brought this forward to the public safety committee back in July. Uh what the IPM is, and he'll go into more detail. It's just a self-reporting, uh tool that we can use that integrates into our current records management system. So, by code, right now, any business that has fire protection in their building, correct me if I'm wrong, uh has to have that completed annually depending on the system. Um, but they don't, it's not self-reporting. So, it's just the company doing that or the business doing that and then they have a tag on their systems saying yes inspected. We necessarily don't visit every building every year. So, we may not see that building for 3 years as an example like in the industrial park, we we set up a schedule every third year. So, this just helps get that compliance and making sure that things are happening. Uh, and if there's an issue, then that's reported to us through the software. I'll let you kind of go from there if I missed anything and kind of uh so the big pitfall right now is that there's no requirement for those contractors to do annual inspection to submit their reports to us. They're only required to submit them by code to the building owner. And those reports include deficiencies, stuff that doesn't meet code currently, and stuff that necessarily wouldn't red tag the system, but puts a system at risk for non-compliance down the road. Um, so today code requires a tag on sprinkler systems and a tag on extinguishers and a tag on alarm systems, but they're not required to post paperwork on any of them. So when we go into a business, say in every third-year business, and I say it was due in July, didn't get inspected, I reach out to the building owner because they're not there, it's a commercial occupancy that maybe they're just the building owner. I say, "Hey, you know, you're you're behind 3 months, whatever on your annual inspection for your sprinkler system." They're like, "Oh, yeah, they did it. I'll get you the report." So, we set up our reinspections for 30 days. Go back out there 30 days later. I haven't received anything. Call them again. Hey, oh yeah, they did it. They were supposed to email it to you. Okay. Well, they didn't email it to me. So, we start the cycle. It's a it's a never- ending loop on some of these buildings where it's a out of city owner of the building and somebody that doesn't have presence on premise. Uh, this closes the loop on everything and gives us a opportunity to get every inspection report submitted to the department for review, for approval, including a list of deficiencies. So, we know our buildings that are falling behind on 5-year hydro tests and 10-year hydro tests and FDC tests, which are non-tacked items in the space and may not show up unless you get a deficiency report. Uh anyways, in doing that, uh in August of last year, I started researching vendors that offer this service. The biggest one is Pryer. They uh compliance engine is the one that they put out. Uh they were kind of first to market with ITM products. So they're in a lot of departments around the city or around the the cities. Um so a lot of the big metro departments use Pryer. Uh, Liv is one that spun off from people that left Pryer to do their own thing because they saw there's an opportunity to split the market and make money on both sides. Uh, and then the third solution was through First, who is a first party RMS provider. They do our record management for fire calls, everything else. Um, they saw this as an opportunity to bring it in-house, stop leaving money out to a third party to do the same thing that they can do and integrate with their system. Uh anyways, we went through demos and trials with all three of them. Uh Bryer probably the most polished obviously because they've been in the market the longest. Uh Liv had taken a lot of the core framework from Bryer and then put their own spin on it, but their integration into our record management system was basically the same because first do dictates what third party companies can bring in and out of their system. uh first do new to the ITM realm but they brought people in from both LIB and Bryer to help them develop the backend. Uh the huge benefit for us is it directly integrates that ITM reporting, deficiency reporting, contact updates, everything directly into our pre-plans. So um we're getting that live feed of information. So when a contractor goes in to enter a annual report and they've got a new building owner, a new building owner contact and they put it in the system, it'll automatically bring that into our pre-plant so that when we go out on a 3 a.m. fire alarm call and we're looking at a keyholder sheet that hasn't been updated in 3 years and we call somebody and they're like, I don't I don't even know where that building is. We have live updates of of who's doing who's paying for it and who is the contact board every year that pays for that. Um I think that's the condensed version of it. Happy to answer any questions if you read through my thrilling uh packet of information. There were no graphics. Sorry. >> How do the three compare from a costic? >> Uh so internally there's no cost to the departments. Uh Bryer is the most expensive outwardly to the contractor. So, the way these are funded is the contractors that do the inspections have to pay to submit their reports to the ITM. So, they it's a tokening system. They pay $5 for extinguishers. They pay $10 for alarms. They pay 20 for >> um price is the most expensive. Uh live undercut them a little bit to try and take some of the market and first do took a completely different approach to it. So, where the other two charge you for every report you do, uh first two charge you for the submission. So if I go out to a business as say summit and I do the fire alarm, I do the sprinklers and I do the extinguishers and I do a kitchen hood because I do all of them. I only pay for that visit to be submitted uh as a as a piece. That's my only cost and that their cost is is across the board the same for all the reports. >> And we're not necessarily looking for guidance on a specific vendor tonight. Um, we're more just looking at is this a concept that you're okay with because it would be a cost to the businesses. It would be an additional level on on their end. >> And now that was my question because it would inquire an ordinance change to uh to I'm assuming to implement that cost. >> Uh the ordinance change is just to ensure that the vendors working in the city know that they're bound by ordinance to submit through our Currently there's no requirement at the state or municipal level for them to submit. >> Yeah. My my only concern on I I mean I think it makes sense because I think at the end of the day the businesses are going to want to have that piece of mind but I get nervous if we don't control the fee. We go down this road and then all of a sudden three five seven years from now the contractors are ton four. Do we have recourse to going to reel that back in? And and we're talking about $25 is like the submission fee there. It's not hundreds of dollars for their submission. So when you said like by the I'm thinking like, oh, Amazon might have to pay. >> No, no. So if I if I go out to Amazon and I do their 600 extinguishers, their sprinkler system, their pump, everything I may have a submission cost of $45. >> Got it. Okay. I thought for each of the device just >> No. No. And so, you know, in talking to the vendors that offer ITM, it's a mixed bag between if the contractor directly puts that money onto the business owner or if they eat that because this leads to significantly more work for them in the long run because businesses are actually having to do the maintenance that they're not necessarily reporting in today's market. Got it. I mean public safety committee review this was a good idea to move forward especially with the amount of businesses we have having compliance and then the pre-planning uh piece was a huge part for me having access to that information that's huge for our firefighters so the keyholder information alone you know along with the record of the inspection That's huge because yeah, otherwise it just doesn't kind of what drew me in the first part because I spent 30% of my time chasing down dead leads for businesses and stuff when I'm trying to follow up on the inspection. So things does this does this software help us at all with when we do building mapping by having better context? I'm just wondering if there's like an added benefit because we've done a critical incident mapping in schools for instance for doing that for other buildings. >> Not necessarily the mapping piece. It just gives us a context. So if we were going to go in as far as its that >> So it's not like those things can work to like the information we're getting >> goes into it goes into that >> goes into that pre-plan. So now we know >> that you are the contact for that building. Got it. >> Makes sense. >> Okay. So, the next step would be that we bring this forward as a uh we have to go through the draft piece of ordinance and uh the city attorney and then bring that to council for approval. >> Okay, sounds good. >> Okay. >> And then are you guys staying up for the design or are you >> No, I have the staff. >> Thanks everybody. Thank you. Go get him, guys. >> Uh, mayor, council, thank you. Uh, tonight we're going to take a look at where we're at. The, uh, new fire station uh, that's been called fire station 5, fire station 24, got multiple names. We're just calling it new fire station, I think, for now. Um, but we've brought in Quinn Hudson and Brooke Jacobson with CH Architects. They've been uh working with staff uh for the past uh 20ome plus weeks or more and um kind of refined the design a little bit. I'm just going to turn it over to them to kind of show where we started from back in 2023 when we did the initial study and how we've got to today. So, I'll turn it over to >> Okay. So, to the evening, comments one there. Uh I going to start by going back a little bit and talking just where we came from in this process. But as uh he mentioned we uh completed the uh Lake Pole fire department facility study uh acting two years ago this month. It's been a little bit of time since that was completed and obviously the work on that had been done prior to that. Um but from that that study we uh had and evaluated all the the the school department all the stations and process and where you know where you are we going what the conditions are and from that we kind of identified some best practice for modern fire station goals that we would typically see and like to you know focus on first of all focus on physical and mental health. uh that's really the critical part and probably the most emerging part transit paid fire service uh within the station and the operations. Uh secondly, we look at humility reduction. toxins and removal um and that's through hot cold zone design um and providing equipment and for uh and providing decontamination to equipment and for firefighters in the station much of which doesn't exist in the station. We also looked at on-site training providing for regular what we call firefighter one everyday type training. These are things that are done while they're at the station ready to respond. So it's not the things that would be more in depth that can happen other times in other places, but looking at things that can happen and training they can do weekly uh while they're in between calls. Um and then uh designing the future. Of course, you know, this needs to be flexible for changes that come down the road. That's an important part of any, you know, municipal design. uh and so with that we're looking at multi spaces, future growth and things like that. So those were some of the things that came out of the study. We had some specific goals at that point then that would I'd rather address and the decision was to combine station two and four things we looked at individually or combine whether what made the most sense for the department and so it was decided to look at that combined station uh that we will be talking more about tonight. Uh we also of course had recommendations to address uh the needs of stations one and three which wouldn't follow station starting with station uh 54 whatever uh designation it ends up getting in the end point >> just call it six. So that's kind of where we uh started the this next process of designing the station, you know, with that background of of the study and what we learned from that and with the goal of addressing it in this this first round. Um so with that we started the design process our one of our first meetings. uh we uh spent time really talking about what we would consider guiding principles, things that really should kind of help guide choices that that are made throughout the process. And so the ones that the uh team and then us you know the staff team um you know dev out was fiscally responsible future focused multifunctional sustainable organizational health and wellness mental health focused history and community centered. So those were those are just things that really touch on a lot of things that were integrated into the design process and into the goals for the you know for this station design so that it really serves the community best. So with that uh our first step in actual designing was uh a re looked at the program. So looking at the space needs uh for the station. At that point it had been you know probably over two years since we did the initial program that would have been the early part of the study and uh we knew that at that point uh we really need to look at it again refocus on it a little bit and things have changed in some ways. I there was expanded knowledge that the department had about how the future is going to develop different some movement in the transition of of uh you know serviceable models. So there's some things that we learned from that. Uh there was some decisions that were made about how spaces were distributed in between this combined station and stations one and three. You know where are some of the things best suited for the um best operation of the department. So some things moved to the station out of one and three to again better centralize and and focus on the long-term use. So that was one of the things that we looked at in programming. And then the last thing I think that really had some impact on change in the program uh was um just looking at EMS service uh and what that might be today and what that might be in the future and how that might impact uh you know just what the facility need might be. So those are the kind of the the things that we really dove into when we redid the programming process from the uh study to this line station now. So and that will have some impact on what we'll be showing you at the build. So with that as uh Alan mentioned we've had 20 design meetings staff have been very involved and helpful and and looking at that plus feedback in between and all that. So we've uh really had a great you know start to this point. Uh throughout that process we've had 14 different floor plan floor plan diagrams that each kind of refined look at different options and refined down to where we're we'll be showing you tonight as well um throughout that process. So we've looked at a lot explored a lot of things in this process. Does the public savings review the most recent? >> Okay. And then um our last most recent step is looking at what it might look like you know some of the materials and image and we'll be showing some of that today as well. Through that process we looked at you know six different versions and refined from there. So we really my point in that is they've been putting a lot of work in with us to explore and really determine what is the best fit um you know for the station at Denver. So with that I'm going to turn it over to Brooke kind of walk you through past and present a little bit on on actual plans and uh then we'll and at any time please feel free to ask questions. >> Great. Well, I'm going to uh start off uh just as Queen was just touching a little bit on the initial study. Uh so the first two uh drawings that we're going to look at are are based on the study and then we'll move from there into the current design. So right what you're seeing on the screen is the uh site plan that we use in the study for the combined station. This is just showing a generic site. um we really focus on what is the best layout for the station itself and then how do all the site pieces um work around that to develop you know what's that ideal kind of footprint for the site itself to give uh the department enough information for finding new land for that. So what you're seeing on the screen is we have our our main kind of colorcoded building which you'll see more of in the floor plan. Um the kind of right side of the building is the public um administration office side um residents. The left side is where our you see from the red the warmer colors uh where our apparatus and support spaces are. Um and then from that our main um public kind of access to the site is on the far right is where they would come enter park along here. Then down below was the admin parking as we have separate entrances for our public and versus our admin. Then our firefighters would enter the site um you know kind of from this main drive they park in the back side of the station and then our apparatus would spawn directly straight up out up out onto um the main road that was here. So, just delving in a little bit more on floor plans. A little bit. Um, so the front entrance, main entry is is up here. Um, the public areas are coated in green. So, you can see all of that as you come in the entry. Um those are you know classrooms, meeting spaces, uh restrooms, lobby on the uh green and the public area especially at the main entrance. We always want to have our admin spaces adjacent to that so they can be off of that lobby and provide that public space if people are coming in. So you're seeing in the dark blue our admin areas consisting of offices and some rooms. As we move further into the station, our gray areas are a lot of our common spaces, whether it's vertical circulation, handle, electrical spaces, some storage, things of that nature. And then the lighter blue is station office. That's where the firefighters mostly are working in, whether it's their work room, fitness, a few storage spaces for them as well. So, kind of all those cool colors represent the um cold zone of the facility. And then the warmer colors, the light reds, dark reds, and yellows become the hot and warm zones of the building. We really want to make sure that we um separate those really wells for the health and wellness, one of the guiding principles for the firefighters, so that we're keeping all of the carinogens into the hot zones and not bringing those into those zones. Um so you can see the the dark red are the apparatus space. The lighter red is a lot of the support space or decon um support spaces. And then the yellow are kind of those transitional storage spaces, things of that nature. We go up to the second floor. The purple then is showing the residence area and then the dark red is showing um some additional storage and training aspects. That's kind of the the rough layout um for the original study. From there we go on to the current design. >> Brook just a little bit. So that original study just so they can have a compare and contrast. That original study assumed seven firefighters full-time firefighters station there. >> We have uh eight I just want to get a feel for that. >> Yeah. Get a feel for what we had proposed at 26 million versus when we got to like >> Yep. >> So, are those like Burns where they they kind of they're swapper. >> Okay. >> It's a it's a dorm suite. So, within each suite is a small hallway we call the locker hallway that has their kind of the shift different shifts. each have their own um locker and then off of that hallway is accessed um a single use restroom with shower um and then uh the dorm room. And so we do that so that um and then those you access the locker hallway off of the main hallway. Um, and so we do that to help with um the one sound separation so that we're getting good sound separation around those dorm rooms, but also it allows if um when shift change happens and somebody was out on a call and they needed to catch up on some sleep the next shift pump in drop their stuff off in the lockway, use the restroom if they want without serving the person in the room. So on the sites, what you're seeing is the the overall um complete site um owned by the city. The fire station is using that kind of northwest corner of the the overall site. Um so the what we're using is about 3.84 um acres of the site. Um we focus on the fire station site itself. The main public access is located off of dod and can access one of two ways. The main uh drive that enters the site or this internal road that's been created uh that will provide access to the other areas of the site that get developed in the future. Uh so there are two access points here and here for the public. Uh the main entrance of the building is up here. We have our fitness entrance over here. So, this allows public and city staff to park in this north parking lot and access both of those entryways. We have uh parking on this side for admin with their own separate admin entrance um so they can easily respond quickly if needed. They also have access to DOD as well as Brandy from their parking spot as well. And then the firefighter parking occurs on the back side of the apparatus space. Uh they also have access would have access off of that internal road. So if they come from DOD if needed or from Brandy Station >> in that first floor the 39,000 ft. How much is that this green public classroom area? >> Um the whole area like all of the green. >> Yeah. Um I have pink number. Um >> so roughly that looks like 10 to 15%. So I guess I'm looking at 3500 ft 3500 4500. And then lastly on the site we have our apparatus space through here. They respond directly out to Brandy. From there they can go north um to the if needed up into the neighborhoods or they can go south and get on to 79 down here. Then um to the south of the station is the area that we are allowing for the storm water retention on site situated between the station and the water tower. um both that storm water and internal road we're you know including as part of the project um but only a fraction of that is um just for the fire station itself. The storm water retention would also uh account for the rest of the developed site as well as um access off of that internal road site as well. And then lastly, the rest of the site that's left over can be utilized um as we discussed already in in previous meetings, but for potential other city auctions or and or um selling some for development as well. Moving into the current floor plan design for the station. Um just to show a comparison, we did um color code the the green and the blue for the classroom and the admin spaces similarly to um the study design so that you just see that comparison. They're relatively similar there. Uh our main entrance is on the left side of the screen. That brings you directly into the the lobby. That's where all the remaining of the public spaces are which includes classrooms, some meeting rooms, some display and restrooms. From there, there's access to the rest of the station. So, that dark blue you're seeing is the admin area which consists of office offices and collaboration and some meeting space. They do have their own um separate entrance to quickly go out to their parked vehicles and respond if needed. Then everything else you're seeing in white is kind of the rest of the the station that is meant for firefighter use. So um everything that you're seeing in in white then um is what we would typically see in the modern fire station to meet best practices that was mentioning before um in regards to health health and wellness and safety and training. Um so some of those spaces the other kind of main entrance uh we touched on on the site plan is the fitness area that utilized not only for the fire department but for other city staff as well. Uh has its own separate entrance for that reason. As a part of that um fitness we also have um tornado shelter to protect the fire department um as required by a code. some of the other spaces through here which um I should say anything kind of on this left side is our cold zone of some warm transitional spaces in between and then everything to the right of that is our our pot um red zone. Um but in those transitional spaces we have our common areas mechanical electrical our vertical circulation some storage spaces as well as uh firefighter work offices firefighters on staff. To the right of that we have um our seven apparatus bands. So we have a grouping of four our center support area which consists of um our deon and support areas. uh and then the last three bays. So with those seven bays that accounts uh for allows the department to fit all the apparatus including decon space um specifically allotted for that and room for um future ambulance. In the center support space is where we have our our decon um some some storage some work spaces. Uh it also includes our turnout here which is part of that feature um focused uh area that we've talked about multifunctional it size right now for the current operations which is that kind of mixed service model but knowing that eventually when we fully go to full-time we don't need as many lockers and so we already have set this up and plan for ways to turn this kind of top portion of that turnout gear room into storage potential chemical detox in the heater. Um again on that health and wellness side. Then um at the top is the hose and training tower. Uh this allows uh firefighters to run short duration training exercises within a space that is needed which is the the hose drying. Um and that allows them to run those those short duration exercises that mentioned you know daytoday in between walls without impacting their response times. Moving to the second floor. So on the left side you're seeing the residents which have been colorcoded purple in the in the study diagram we looked at. The the residence area is situ situated so that the dorm suites kind of ring the perimeter keeping them all as close as possible. um to kind of the central area and responding. So, we have our suites laid out on on each side in the corner. We have a wellness room allowing uh firefighters to uh support mental health. So, it's space that they can go that is quiet. Uh they can also um do stretching, meditation in that space, focusing on the mental health side of things. And in our center area here, we have our kitchen, dining, and day room areas. Um so this also you know is there to support modery as well as relaxation for mental health >> kind of sex TV you have >> common question more than one that's kind of a question you have like >> or we are planning for a couple so one more for on that relaxation side and then there's typically another one kind of in the day dining area that can you know show their cat screens station alerting things of that so that they can kind of multi-purpose in there. Um all these spaces are are organized uh you know centrally around that mule area allowing um quick response times to our you two stairs one here and one here as well as a fire pole. So all uh circulation moves in this direction very easily to those three options to get them down into the apparatus phase. Uh, as I kind of touched on before, those suites are they're designed in such a way so that we not only um, you know, and the walls right around them are providing good sound separation for mental health, allowing firefighters um, get better sleep and not have interrupted sleep, but it's also um, away from with space and circulation separating from kind of those noisier areas of the day room watching movies on on those large TVs. tree of light. >> Yeah. Um and then throughout that kind of residence area, we will have lowle lighting as well to help with startle response as they get woken up in the middle of the night and have to respond to falls. Um they're not coming out of their dorm rooms and seeing very bright blinding light and sneak. So and then the other side, the mezzanine area. So, uh, that bla training tower goes up a few stories, uh, so that we get the height we need for to drive in the poses. Um, and then we provided a messing area for training. We already have these spaces down below. It's a very lowcost item for us. Um, so you just put a floor in and provide um, usable space up here. So there's some storage spaces as well as um some small areas for training again for those short duration exercises that they can do any cleaning bowls. Moving to the exterior. Starting up top. Uh we are planning for um in in the entire building, not just the exterior materials, but throughout a very durable building. Our goal is that, you know, a building that'll last 40 to 50 years. Not every single piece will last that long or replace joint sealants and things like that over time. But, um, the major, um, factors of the building will last. So, what you're seeing here is, uh, that north, um, perspective off of Dodd. We have our main entrance right here. We're using a mixture of materials. Starting out uh with the kind of smallest pattern you're seeing on there is a a brick material. They go up to kind of our our mid-range materials in here. These are a composite wall panel system and then our larger scale masonry that you're seeing on the pilot service. So you can see the main entrance off to the right is the apparatus display as part of the lobby. Off to the left is one of the conference rooms on the public side of things. Uh then the far right is the admin wings, the offices over there. And then you're starting to see that second floor. So these are the the dorm suites on the sides and then that wellness room on the corner with some tall windows so that we can bring in a lot of natural light. Again, it's very good for me. As we turn the corner and kind of walk along Grand Media, uh you see the back of that apparatus display again using that mixture of materials. Uh we're bringing in a historic nodu to fire stations with having some arches over the apparatus today and display spaces where all of the apparatus are. So you can start to see that here. Um again, this is the admin wing with that separate entrance. Second floor residence is up above. And as we move right, we have our apparatus bays. First grouping of bays again with that arch to historic side and um kind of our front tower space that has some of our workspaces and stair and bringing in some natural light into some of those workspaces. It's kind of that same view from a southwest perspective. So you can see the operat space a little bit better. Um second floor admin areas as well as that south side of the space providing some signage there that um from 179 some signage from Grand as well as signage you saw on the front. The last two images just give you kind of a walk around the backside on the east side of the station is what you're seeing. We're standing in the northeast corner of the site on that top image. Uh so you can see the hose and training tower on the back side. Fitness area separate entrance. Classroom view is through those windows there. You can see the second floor residence up above. Back to our main entrance system. bottom image is from the southeast. Just giving you a better view of the apparatus phase, that training tower that allows multiple different scenarios for them on those short-term exercises as well as that south portion and fitness again with um some goodiz glass in there to help bring in some natural daylight. We haven't started looking at the colors yet. That's kind of next on our list, which is why you're seeing them in black and white. But we've talked about um warmth um bringing warmth into the materials both inside and outside. Very durable. >> Questions on that? >> I do have a couple questions. So is what from a you know from the fire department standpoint what what's kind of envisioning the public space area do we really need it I'm just like because I'm I I bring that up to say you know we're we're trying I'm trying to get us to this you know smaller number from where we were originally I understand all the need that we have but I'm just because in my mind we're having some classroom space at the first center right for public use and so it's just give me some background on that. Is it specifically just open to whatever or is it more of a fire department need or kind of what's the concept on that? >> Some of the needs or requests that we get is kind of the youth group. So, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, uh we used to host um snow trackers for their youth education, which we used to do it at station one. We can no longer do that with staff underneath them as far as because it's an evening class. >> So, it's kind of those functions. uh I'll say the classroom uh piece is that but it's also for us when we're going to hold a department meeting or we're bringing outside training inside training we have that piece that's there along with that. So it's kind of a multi again that multi-function it's not just public but it's also fire department. So we're doing our monthly training. So next month as example when Alina comes in house to do EMS training with us. This is this is a space that we do it in. Right now we do it upstairs at station one. So >> there's also an EOC aspect to it as well that's being planned for this with >> I would be confused. So you'll have to help me out here. Are you planning are you thinking of using this for all the stations to do their training? >> So stations will do individuals there but when we do so our medical training we have to do at one fixed site. So a lineer comes in they bring in their equipment and we do that at station one today. So each station has their Monday night and we we don't have a training room currently in our system to do that other than station one. And again, we're we're fitting in what works today upstairs at station one. So, this just offers us a better place to do that. And I'll say down the future, we can look at and say what's needed at stations one and three as we look at remodeling, rebuilding those stations. >> So, was I confusing myself? There's not 4,000 ft of second floor training in this one. I'm just I'm conflating the first project. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Yeah. All the training's on the first level on this >> the the public space and then the only that the mezzanine the second floor in that mezzanine that center column >> is just open space. >> Okay. Cuz I Okay. So but on the first design we look at there was some second level training but not >> there is at first center the one >> no no sorry the first >> the study one initial 23 >> the 23 one >> it's similar on both we typically in a modern fire station would always plan some mezzanine mobile um training and a lot of that is because it's the apparatus space are very tall and we have rooms um in between it so on the first floor all those support spaces don't need that height So, at a very simple cost, we can add in a floor, provide some openings on the wall that allows them to do some training while they're at the station and they can just leave everything out when they get a call, respond, and then, you know, come back and pick up where they left off. >> Yeah. I just want to make sure I'm not being confused because my thought process is, okay, if there is 4,000 square feet of training, maybe we don't necessarily need the public access part of it, right? Do we need both? So I'm just trying to think through is if we're like trying to streamline a little bit. Let's think about that. My other question, can we talk about future ambulance during renovate during this phase? I do want to have a conversation about this point. I don't know where we are, but my thought process is there potential to streamline the amount of bays on this project knowing that we're going to have to renovate others and we would potentially have ambulance at those. That makes sense. So, >> can we have this conversation three years from now at station three renovation instead of maybe we save a little bit on on this project by eliminating the bay or maybe we can't. I'm just >> so size standpoint. >> I'll say uh Brook and they reached out to me saying what equipment's going in here. So then I did the exercise of what are you know because obviously we're taking two stations into one and looked at our fleet that we currently have and then I drew that even further and said well if we we use this station kind of as a the pinpoint what can we look at stations one and three in the future and say can we reduce bay sizes or bays down in those stations. Uh from that analysis and accounting for whether we have an ambulance or two ambulance at each of those three stations it gives us that space. So in other words, what I'm saying is if we we design this to kind of where we are today, obviously there's some there's potential what we can reduce, but from an ambulance and equipment, uh we can look at station one and three in the future and reduce bays down, which uh we kind of put together and I think I shrunk each station down by at least a bay. >> So yeah, we're both talking about the same footprint. It's just I'm talking about it today versus saving it. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's there's an unknown right now in service. >> Will it continue to be ALF or will it be something different where we're responsible for it in the future? >> Well, I still think and the reason I bring it up is I have my own concerns about ALF and I've said it to Aligner directly, but there's continued conversation the legislature about how all that reimbursement looks and I think obviously our desire would be different if the reimbursements different I would guess. Um, >> so, >> so that's a difficult thing that we're trying to figure out is >> the do we do we build this for a future that may or may not happen or is there other opportunities out there with the other stations where maybe Align or AL we release those to them in the future. So, >> well, so yeah, my question is if you took off space for future ambulance, are we talking about saving a million dollar? Are we talking about saving $500,000? like I'm just I understand you're you're shrinking the whole footprint. I'm just this is a lot bigger than that than we were talking about originally. So I'm like how can we if there's maybe some not essential services >> the one piece that you have to look at is right now we house ALF or line at station two. >> Yep. So if we if we go this route and we eliminate station two, we have to provide. We don't have to, but you know, in the best interest of keeping them, we want a base space for them >> cuz we also have them at three. Correct. And four. >> Uh they're not at four anymore. They're at one and three. >> But they could. >> But we have had discussions about four about them that being a more permanent spot. How how often are they at our facilities versus hanging out at senior center buildings in a great question? >> You see there? >> Yeah. Sorry, John. Um just it so the training tower um and the training space I when we talked about the first center we the understanding was is we would have some training facilities there fire so what how does this work with with what we're talking about at the first center is it duplicating is it so >> the first center we designed there is uh windows on the exterior for lading uh the Second floor at the first center contains the SCBA maze or confidence course and then there's also movable walls that are similar to the tactical room below it. So that's the features that are there but it is a dry stairwell meaning we can't we can't bring in wet hose and connect to a stand pipe or any of that. So it's dry training so we can work on bringing a dry hose up but no water can be introduced into that stairwell. Uh, and then we look at that the first center more of we're going to go down and do an exercise and we're going to be there for two, three hours. More of a long-term like if we go to Able, we're there for 4 hours of training. That makes sense. What the host tower or what the training elements at this station is uh, as they mentioned is more of, hey, we want to throw ladders real quick. So, we got time that we're not on a call and this is what's on our training elements. We're going to do ladders for 15 20 minutes. Uh so we have that component and it's also a wet stairwell so that we can charge lines in there uh you know work on if we're doing going into an apartment complex and flowing water. One of the things we did change from the study to now because of our uh now it was happening at the work center and we met with the design team on that as well as we removed any of the conference the maze portions uh that would have otherwise some of the fire stations from that training at the level where we just have the things that they can do quickly and you know or >> so so then something that would help me understand that a little bit better too. So, we have our cadre of full-time firefighters. >> Yep. >> This is obviously designed uh with the dorm space, but is the vision that all of our full-time firefighters are going to be at this station or will they still be at two different stations like during the course of a normal business? >> They would be at m, you know, they'd be at one, three, and four long when you look at long term. So, currently once the station's up and operational, station four would probably become unmanned. We keep them here at one >> with our current if we're if we're to open that tomorrow, >> right? So even if they're in one, if they want to train, they would have to come there. >> Correct. >> Joshua. >> Uh two questions. Mine was my initial question was what changed or what was it's $5 million more. So where do those costs come from? to broaden the question that we've had about kind of the specifics where where did those that $5 million some of it one is the obvious attribute you know additional baying up for that there were six bays in the stud the same year other than that it's kind of spread around and we identified you know uh just some of the growth I I guess one of the ones would be like the historic be that being in the original um you know that bits and pieces to that is where the other ones are addressed. Um but I probably say the majority well or at least the biggest single pieces that have I small I think the historical truck should be at station portally when we're remodeling that I think if we're going to display it it should be down there. I agree. Um, I know that that's not a huge thing. Um, I I I'm struggling with this tower thing because if we needed a wet tower, I don't know why we didn't put that in the first station. Um, that seems like a first center. Um, it just seems like a large structure that still changing from a dry to why would we not >> You would still need to dry the post. >> Where do we drive them? on the board in the base is not what we would consider acceptable new standard in process if there been standard fation the dry like this but hangs so that's part of the reason for a tower either way whether you whether it's a wet tower or dry tower you still would be hanging that point we recommend a wet tower so you can practice some things that you can't other locations. So, it's it's standard to have a tower for drying post as opposed to having hanging up a hood rack in the garage, you know. >> Yeah. >> Next to the trucks, just seems like a large. >> Yeah. Well, the the hoses are quite long. Um, >> also they're drying lot many of them at one time. So, when they come back from the fire, it's not just one, they're drying several. So just the short quantity it's easier to manage um in our power. >> The other piece just from the cost side is that the study was 23 2023 and we're at 2025. So we've got two years time between the 25 million to where we are at 30. So just so to be clear though I think the initial study was 22 right >> the class >> yeah when you presented in 23 >> Arkansas costs were around 2021 >> no years 2022 versus 2023 when the cost were um estimated is that what you're saying >> yeah when we looked at this in 23 I thought the initial cost was 22 and I'm not oh 22 >> and the reason I'm asking saying that is because we put 26 million into the franchise free so we did build in some >> some some information there >> um 10 in the 30 million how much is for contingency >> we would typically um have at this point we would have 5% of contingency during the design process but there's we're still thinking of figuring So, >> and so when they're estimating, they're not they're guessing as they want to have some that if it doesn't come out, it it goes away. That doesn't get used. And then we would typically also have a 5% during construction uh contingency in an all new build um particularly um in what I would expect to be good soil location. Um I would say that that's more than enough but that so at the moment we've met 10% and there we're providing we have brought on RJM as a um construction manager. They they're doing a good job. They're working with with the team here and are identifying they're verifying you know they're out in the field a lot and so um they're helping verify those as well. >> Yeah. I just is there I think we're 90% there. I would like to have a little further discussion about the ambulance thing and try to see some numbers on today versus future renovations and stuff and then and then obviously conversation about the public area if it's really needed. We do have again if I'm correct that there's still other space for training upstairs. equivalent square footage >> clarification on that. Are you talking about above the I thought the classroom area am I inaccurate that I thought there was 4,000 square feet of training or whatever did I that's what I asked and I thought of >> the 4,000 ft was all the public area public training >> you know bathrooms >> there there was one little line that said second floor training 4,000 square ft am I thinking of >> was that on the the other one not this one Right. >> So that must be then the >> the design. Go back. Go to like slide. >> You want the upstairs >> there. So what is that? That's a second floor train and storage 4100 ft. What's that? >> So that is that' be the footprint for this whole piece. So it's it's this the training tower, the mezzanine and the storage mechanical electrical. It's all the spaces up here and to some degree because of what's below it critical function below it. the space upstairs. You know, we could leave a two story space in some area or something, but we're not >> No, I'm trying to say is if we if we're not so concerned about the access for the public to be in a classroom, can that training be in Do you understand what I'm saying? >> So, it's it's just the different styles of training that they're doing. So they do have times when they need like plaster setting rebirththing and I don't know like you want to expand on that but versus like in the mezzanine it's they have their uron they're they're they're doing >> so I'm trying to understand the other I guess maybe the piece that you want to that center piece that mezzanine area >> y >> is more of kind of the dirty zone again below it is where we're going to decon any gear where there's contamination from a fire EMS call and then above it is just open space right Now there's nothing that we have programmed other than it's open space that we can do training in if we so need to >> where they climb the window into but nothing more than that. >> It's all got virtually out of place. >> Got it. That makes sense. >> The green area that classroom is more we're sitting down we're going through medical training with a line. >> So then apples to apples for them. The green area would be if we have enough square footage of the first center. I know it's not ideal. that's on site. But in theory, in the grand scheme of all of our facilities, we in theory would have that kind of class base or no or we >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, if you look at this um and I'm by no means an architect, I promise I won't activate, but you know, the inside as they've started to schedule the operations, it gets harder to make changes, you know, the interior orientations of things, you know, because you when you start to take one thing away, it really impacts. So, you really kind of have to start to look at the edges a little bit. Um, could you zoom out a little bit, Brook? You know, and as as we've talked about this, or I've talked about it as I came in, Allan goes to all these meetings for me. I'm good. Um, you know, as you look around the edges, you have the the truck display or the historic fire engine display there. Um, you have that conference room to the up there. Um, and then if you go even further up, you have a pretty large fitness area. Um, you know, so you could start to trim down the edges, you know, by making some changes there. Um, you know, once you get on the inside of things, it starts to get a little bit harder to to make any substantial changes. But, but you're right, Mayor. I mean, there's a lot of classroom slashconference space in this plan that I think if we were looking for areas to to make some savings, that could be some possibilities. >> Yeah, I don't want to impact the fitness area. That's >> that's a big fitness area. >> Yeah, I get it. Um >> and I want it to be nice, too. But >> but I don't I mean is the vision to still have >> like you know the public safety foundation b equipment for station four is vision to keep that there and that this is a secondary fitness or >> I'll say some of the preliminary or just brief conversations that we had is some of that equipment that's currently at fort can move to here and then we would add and then that's a discussion we'd have to have with the foundation as far as supporting that. >> Okay. Well, they've expressed because I was I I talked to Chen, she expressed interest in how the foundation could play a key role into some of the overages. >> Yep. >> When we took tours of the different fire stations around the metro, majority of those fitness areas are like 900 to,000 ft. We've had this one at 2,000 with the anticipation that other city staff may use this. kind of done a little bit of internal looking and we don't think a lot of >> outside staff will use it. So I think it's an easy way to cut some cost by reducing network. >> Yeah. I mean we we talk about that like I'll give police an example. Right now they have access to go over to fire station 4 and they rarely do it. It's just hard to get it's hard to get out of your own building to go do that. Um, and >> is it realistic to cut one bay off or my my off base here? >> I guess we can we can certainly look at that was kind of where when I looked at apparatus and what our fleet looks like today and in the future. Uh, I think it's easier to look down the road and say, can we shave space at the stations one and three versus here we can kind of we can have more space and accommodate for that versus we get to station one and three and we have to now add a bay because we we shortened it here. Yeah, if that makes sense. >> I mean, I think and the reason I'm bringing this up is because we decided to to dedicate 20 years of franchise fees to make these projects happen. If we're getting down to the road five, six, seven years from now, our hands are going to be pretty tied. Unless we have tremendous growth in business and people paying into the franchise fee, our hands are going to be really tied in some of the renovations. Um, and so that's my one of concerns. We think 5 10 15 years out, what's our pot of money going to look like? And I don't know if you guys have >> done I get it. I get inflation, all that kind of stuff. There's a ton of factors, but I just want to make sure we're not >> Can this be right size a little bit so that we have a little bit on the back end? >> Well, that's my question to the council. So, um, we we have 26 million in the proforma for franchise fees for this project. How comfortable are you, if you are comfortable at all, going over that knowing that we will have, if you want to stay within that same budget, take stuff off of stations one and three renovations. I mean that has to be part of the conversation. So, I think, you know, we need to hear, you know, and it could probably be a combination of both, you know, um it do you want us to try to shave cost off of this and preserve that option for the expansions on renovations of one and three? >> Well, in my >> otherwise, we're kind of locking in. >> Yeah. And I don't I we don't need to get into this right at the moment, but the problem is for me is I think our initial plans at three were a little wideeyed because that is a constraint site. Think about it. I mean, we'd have to really get creative on how we deal with the land or purchasing or flip-flopping or whatever. So maybe that does make sense is to to follow through this plan and really take a hard look at what three is. Um yeah, I don't know. Yes. So, I mean, the way I look at it, we're I mean, this is 20% more expensive than we were anticipating, 20% larger what we were planning to and we're saying we're going to put off the tough decision still the next two projects and that concerns me. I think we need to have um I know there's some added features here and I want to have the best retro and all of that, but I I do think we need to think that that part through. Um if we go over here we are going to have a lot of challenges on those future sites and I know you and that's the more kind of TBD part of this whole process. So >> yeah I mean when I think of spending priorities I I think I think we got it right a little bit on the front end with we want to support our firefighters but the the interior stuff it's going to make them comfortable keep them fit. I mean, I look at this and right off the bat, I'm going, we have one, two, three conference rooms. We could easily get rid of that one conference room in that that display bay. um in my mind uh just as as a cost cutting type thing. Um I I've been through public safety facility and construction and what I learned there was when you start compromising on the interior in terms of what you're using for materials, that's when it really starts affect you. So I agree. I appreciate what Mr. Miller said in terms of let's take a look at what we can trim on the outside. Uh the big question is the ambulance pay and regardless of you know in the future if things change and and we end up with our own ambulance or whatever you still have an ambulance in town and I think that's important. So I think the best thing to do is is to work and figure out where that's best stationed and how we can best accommodate that. uh if it's here then then I think we need to pay for it but if it isn't potentially in place um I uh I think we have to look at that and then the third thing is is the training piece I when we went down this road my understanding is when we were talking about fire station the first time around well we'll do a training facility out of and I understand and I get where it's oh hey you know we can just take our gear and go do this and I I I get that but still part of the part of the crew has to come to this position to train. So I think in my mind looking around the outsides uh I would say those are are three areas where we can take a good strong look and the other piece I'm really curious to see about the exterior I I'll tell you what I'm playing Jump I I don't think we need the most attractive best department in the fire uh station in the metro. I think we need something that's functional for our taxpayers and when our house is burning, we can get a fire department. I that's the way I see they see those types of things. So, I think without seeing anything in terms of the exterior, I think that's a place that we can look at, but I think definitely I I uh I think the carving around the outside there to to me I see a meeting space that isn't that we I know this one's a breakout room for training, but that's still a conference room. Um, so I think there's a couple places where we could turn. >> And one more thought on the public space. I was very excited about that, especially when we were looking at Cherry View at the park there because that was kind of embedded in the community and I thought that's going to be an important trade-off. Well, this is a different location. It's $5 million of land. So, I I'm pro I'm willing to compromise on the public area for this one if it brings costs down, too. your thoughts. Do you have some feedback from us? >> Yeah. So, my my Sorry, >> no, I was saying what's kind of your next steps on >> Yeah. So, um we would like to get to a point where we can start to um you know, get to a final design. My my plan on this was to bring this back to the council one more time sometime yet this fall. um with bringing in the comments that you have and hopefully um >> cuz our intent is still to break ground spring or summer or >> spring. >> Spring. >> Yeah. So, we design and bid over the winter. So, you know, we need to get moving. Um we're >> we're in a good we are on a good path here. Um >> but we'll come back to you yet this fall with hopefully kind of our last and best proposal and see what you think. >> Okay. >> And have some better numbers. >> All right. Good. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Sorry that we had to start you a little later than we wanted can tell the other developer about that. Okay. Um moving on to items um for future discussion. Anything that okay any committee or city administrator update? Uh no, the Dakota 911 board met uh last I think. Um we it was really three people. We approved our contract. Um public safety. Um we actually other okay with that I will take a motion to adjourn. There >> a second. Second. All in favor say I. I. >> We are journed. Thank you everybody.