ready to get started uh with this uh meeting of the uh airlake airport advisory committee June 13th uh we will start with uh welcome and introduction so welcome everyone that's here and uh we'll start with introductions first we'll start with who's in the room and then we will uh move to Who's online we'll just start on the far end there all right good afternoon Christa Jack with the Lakeville Chamber of Commerce Dan Walbert I'm a pilot and own an airplane and part of a hanger Tom Fitz Henry I represent the uh as a co-chair and the users group uh John Burl I I am a co-chair and Lakeville City councila good road Comm development director city of Lakeville Steve getter and I'm Pat moan I'm a pilot and I own a hanger at the airport I'm also the rack representative to the mac and then over there Jennifer hello I'm Jennifer Lewis I'm the max community relations coordinator and welcome everybody uh good afternoon Sam sefelt Airport Manager at the Lakeville airport and I just wanted to mention Adam just text me he's on his way okay I car medf assistant manager for committee relations okay and then Township and then for you gentlemen can you just come up to the microphone and introduce yourselves real quick my name is Nick MERS and I'm a pilot at the airlake airport I'm Al OLN I'm also a pilot at a lake and is there anyone online that should introduce themselves um I'm Katie burum Farmington City Council that it we have a person named Christopher Chris Garder uh sitting in on behalf of met Council and Aaron labry and one other person named Kyle Fischer and then we have our meeting secretary K Vera all right thank you um agenda discussion and information is there any items on the agenda that the uh committee would like to talk about okay number three consent items we'll take these both as a package uh the consent items are approval of the agenda and the approval of the March 14th minutes a copy of which was distributed uh is there anybody that would like to pull either of those items to talk about them all right hearing none uh is there a motion to approve the consent agenda so moved second Jim moan and Dan Walbert uh so all in favor of approving the consent items say I I I anyone opposed and those are approved our next section is public comment this is an opportunity from anyone from the public either virtually or in the uh audience to make a comment up to uh three minutes is there anyone that would like to exercise their ability to make a public comment okay hearing none our next item is uh radio frequency change update and I'm going to have uh my co-chair uh Tom fitzhenry introduce our speaker thank you chair I'd like to introduce Nick modders he've been diligently working on finding a new frequency for airlake called sea uh to make it easier for p Pilots to understand the other Pilots Nick thank you co-chair Fitz Henry and thank you commission for allowing me to appear before you agenda item number five does say radio frequency change update I think another name for that could be an opportunity to make a major Aviation safety Improvement at the airlake airport the radio frequency in question is the common traffic advis frequency and now that we've said common traffic advisory frequency enough its real name and all with all the pilots is seaf and so if you'll indulge me we'll just consider this thing seaf for the rest of the conversation the Metropolitan airports commission is the FCC license holder for the airlake sea so consequently I come to you as a way to advance this concept SEF service is available at all non-towered airports in the United States there are 20,000 airports in the lower 48 50 of them have control towers and you're probably thinking for 19,950 it's bedum but it's not the SEF allows pilots to communicate amongst themselves at an airport and coordinate their activities by informing others where they're going and how they're going to do it and others hear that and say oh he's there and he's going and he's fast and I'll accommodate him and luckily happily and safely all of this works out really good there are seven radio frequencies allocated by the federal Communications Commission and the FAA for this seaf purposes now we've just said that there's 19,99 500 airports sharing these seven frequencies if you've got a radio in an airplane that's a th000 feet above the ground you can imagine that with a tht Tower or the airplane transmitter being 1,000 ft above the ground it's going to have a pretty big range about 100 miles maybe a little less so if you're getting the idea that there's a considerable amount of perhaps frequency congestion overlap a lot of squealing and hollering from the radio waves beating against each other uh you're right in the airlake airport there are eight nearby airports that share the same frequency that air lake has air Lake in the radio spectrum is on 123.0 megaherz now these neighbors that we have are the likes of Albert Lee Princeton New Alm Alexandria Redwood Falls Fort Dodge Mason City and Spencer Iowa New Alm is particularly interested interesting because it is a reliever airport for the Mano State University Aviation program there is always somebody from Mano at New Alm in the pattern making announcements on 123.0 as they should that's good the system works now what I would like to try to do but I do not have the skill to do is to be able to present to you what it's like in an airplane in the pattern when it's a good flying day and there's something happening at airlake and eight other airplane airports I can't do that try something else something that even though my experience in this people that were involved in it are now in their 50s but that's basically teenage children and Automobiles so picture if you will you're in your very best automobile and you've got your teenager who has just gotten through driver's training and you're going to go for a ride because you're the responsible adult and that person can exercise the features of their driving permit we're also going to go parallel parking so you're going to get in the right seat of the car and when you get in there you're going to notice there no brake ped and with this opportunity for you to offer advice during this parallel parking thing to make it more like the airplane and in the pattern at airlake we're going to turn on the radio we're going to find a talk station and we're going to turn it up loud and now we're going driving I don't know about you but I'd be horrified well by the way you got to listen to the radio because important information is going to take place it's going to come from that and you want to hear it so if I've got that scenario in your mind you've got some idea of what it's like in an airplane at air Lake on a really nice flying day where it's nice and everywhere else around here and you've got an awful lot of distractions and opportunities to be disoriented this thing would you think that it would be a good idea if we could do a couple of things like a turn off the radio that's going to quiet things down but from an airplane standpoint would it be better if we could in fact eliminate the inter not interference but the conversations that we're hearing from those eight other airports and in fact yes we can it's easy it's simple and there's not going to be any cost I think it's the ideal solution with all of those factors investigating the seven sea frequencies within 100 miles of air Lake we find there is one frequency that does not have any other airports on it it's a literally a Clear Channel it's unused and how did I get that using the internet going into fcc.gov and then going into licensing and databases and then the general menu for anybody that wants to chase them around and and check my work you can do a license search on 123.0 75 remember the early frequencies 12300 this is 123.0 75 and you'll find there is in fact in duth a station in fact it's at a hospital if you were to do the same search in Wisconsin you'd find that there's one airport in rine Wisconsin which is about 400 miles away there are no lienes in Iowa so basically there's nobody on that frequency here's where the airlake airport uh advisory commission comes into action and a recommendation to Mac to change the C frequen 212 3.75 um is I guess my main message or my main request I hope that you would do this now taking this process a little bit further uh is this an established procedure do people go around and do these things can you change frequencies well yes you can in fact the aircraft owners and Pilots Association some time ago published a document on how to do this and why would you want to do that well for all of the things that we just discussed as far as the Improvement in aviation safety and as I go back to my first flying experiences in 1957 there weren't any common traffic advisory frequencies then in fact I had Fair number of hours before I even got to fly in an airplane had a radio so things are much better now we have the radio Aid as a safety communic Ator as these frequencies have come along the FCC and the FAA has haded them other airports have said you know I'm getting tired of listening to those guys over there I want to be on something else so now that we're up up to seven frequencies in 1960 there was one now we've got seven so how does the commission make the Improvement I would ask you that you recommend to the Mac that uh they make the change to 23.75 are there any questions I have a comment yes sir I think it's a great suggestion I like your presentation uh I do have a follow-up question have you looked into uh the uh clutter on 122.8 I don't live there I you show answer no okay I'm only interested selfishly in airlink okay I was up the other day um in that channel I don't know if you guys can oh yeah I know it address that uh I think that's worse than uh 12300 I was up we shot an approach into farow it's just constant chatter and I think it's completely well I would I would hate to say that I'm the modern version of Don kote and I'm not happy unless I'm tilting some windmill but I am in fact working or trying to work trying to make some Headway on what you're talking about and I have found that the FAA and the FCC have 18 frequencies that are available to add to these seven trying to get the FAA to even answer the phone and talk about these even to get the aopa government uh relation person interested in talking to it or even getting the lady at EAA to have a concept of what I'm talking about I'm not making any Headway so I hope that you and I could get together and of course if the commission wants to U get in on this we can help solve uh for us or the 122.8 problem yeah I'd be willing to work with you I guess my thought was maybe we could do a twofer you know air Lake makes sense uh one for and get air Lake solved and then then we'll get on that sounds like it's very possible again I appreciate your presentation the the 1228 though um 1228 was the original frequency when that showed up in 1960 something whoa is this ever great it's growing uh we had a hard time uh getting a slot to make our calls it was that busy yeah and ear is equally as bad on on a nice day Nick I I have a question so what training do new pilots get on Radio use in terms of be brief plan your transmission say what you're going to say and be done do you do they get training on that and how to use radio yeah okay say it quickly say it clearly say it concisely and shut up I think I I have a comment on that as well and and they should be getting from their flight instructors instruction on exactly what was just said I think when we listen on 1230 we do hear a lot of frequency congestion and what I hear uh you mentioned Mano State students there's a lot of non-standard radio phraseology that come out of their aircraft from what I hear English language uh not not even that just uh you know I I don't care when you're leaving a VFR pattern that you're at 2500 Fleet you're climbing to 3,500 and going to New Alm that's irrelevant to me and it's not uh standard radio phraseology I also see within the pattern at Lakeville a lot of Pilots trying to become controllers uh and this is in a lot of cases the younger cfis that uh are teaching and flying out there quite often and they're trying to tell other airplanes what to do they're trying to point out other airplanes all you have to really do is be quiet and I'll I'll make my calls where the FAA tells me to make the calls you don't have to ask if uh 340 Quebec are you on the frequency well I just made a call about two minutes ago and I'm going to make one when I turn base um so I I think there's an education piece as you mentioned that um you know we we're not going to change the mano St uh curriculum although I'm planning on stopping there at Oshkosh and uh asking some questions but I think within the a Lake Community we can certainly encourage standard R Radio phraseology right have a so you said why wouldn't we that's that's my question is what what is the downside to changing this is it cost nothing and it's available what um what is the downside is there one I'm not aware of one okay and I'll I'll just make quick comment on what he said yeah 1228 is terrible I think is that Lake Elmo that too yeah for I'm talking Mac so to be air Lakes number but then they changed it so yes we need it at Lakeville but Mac may want to look at this don't take the one we're looking at but you know for for Lake Elmo might have an opportunity too because uh when you get up in the a 1228 is 1227 1228 around here is very popular it's like the old chat line on the phone you know Party Line Party Line party line so thank you Nick for presenting that U I don't know if there's any other questions yeah any other questions or comments otherwise yes thank you so what would be the next step yes I mean that's my question I mean do we just ask Sam to uh make a proposal to his management or is there something different I don't know your process our process it's I mean that's what I'm asking you what is the process we could we make it a resolution or well we're recom we you had an a doc well we'll ask for a protocol from them this is what the Mac Information Technology person follow that guy didn't well when I take through the take a look through the licenses the license for uh all the all the radio frequencies the Metropolitan Airport commission has the gentleman well his name is not important but I've got got the license here somewhere that they know how to do this and I think they need to be asked and I think um stressing the aviation safety Improvement on this I would hope that the Mac would uh I think yeah it's a great idea and let's do it so I mean in terms of our group uh I'm feeling like there's some consensus that this would be a good idea uh for somebody to implement whatever the process is absolutely can suggest a motion y I'd like to present a motion that Jennifer and Sam um investigate this further if there's no um reason for this not to proceed that we approve uh the change they can spearhead the project and report back I would second that motion yes we have a motion we have a second is there any other discussion on this before we do a vote okay so all in favor of the motion say I I I anyone opposed okay so that motion passes and is there is it clear what uh we're doing here yeah no I can definitely take this back and we can make sure to have an agenda item at the next meeting I can update the the commission on on what I found out excellent thank you thank you for a great presentation very nice thank you thank you all right uh one second uh can you repeat who the first and second was on that the first was Dan Walberg the second was Steve G okay thank you can I offer another suggestion sure uh um everyone here that flies has dealt with uh Mano State there might be some value in this body um addressing that issue directly with the director of flight operations or instruction at man state in terms of phraseology and I think that would go back to Sam he was the airport manager and just say in very polite tactful terms that uh the phraseology radio phraseology is not consistent that's a CFI issue um we deal with it a lot uh to your point sir I don't care if someone's going to leave the pattern they going to go see their grandmother it just it doesn't matter you know there's just there's a lot of overt talk so I think that um in my opinion it could be appropriate for this body to address um the school okay duly noted I can uh do what I can there I can't make any promises that it will will have change but yeah I can do what I can I think conversation would be a good place to start I would agree thank you for the suggestion all right anything else on the radio frequency change update otherwise we'll move on to item number six Sam uh Airport Manager update okay well good afternoon appreciate the time here I just wanted to update on some of the progress that we've had since the last meeting on our construction projects over the summer uh so the South taxiway Edge light project as well as the replacement Runway end identifier lights uh is expected to start on June 21st now that's already been pushed back uh five days from the original start date so we'll see how that goes but um we're preparing to have uh no closures uh construction supervisor out there to maintain uh contractors are SE maintaining separation from any aircraft taxing through the the Bravo area um so June 21st and there will be surveyors out starting uh tomorrow in preparation for for next Friday's start of the project the runway crack seal uh we received bids uh I think uh about the same day is the last AAC meeting and project was awarded we're anticipating the construction to start uh sometime in July we don't have any firm dates but we are targeting to have the contractors do it during the night so um as well as uh surface markings will be repainted following the crack seal project uh for the entire airport we once we get exact dates I'll be able to communicate to the pilot you know the through the newsletter um and email blasts as well as via notm as early as I can uh which dates those will be that we will have closures in during the overnight hours but uh we're doing that to decrease any impact to anybody's flight operation um and then maintain the airport open during during daytime any questions about those two projects okay um some other things we We are continuing to uh do the design for the aircraft maintenance building or the not aircraft but the airport maintenance building where uh John Ham works and uh we're we're we're anticipating a spring uh construction project for that as well as uh some drainage issues that we're having on the south side we're working uh closely the summer with uh adom and aoft Aviation as we mitigate some of the drainage issues on the South Side um other than that we uh don't have any firm uh progress on the runway extension EA environmental assessment but uh we we do have some good news we our CEO Ricks and and CEO o Ferman um they have a scheduled meeting with the FAA great L faa's Great Lakes regional administrator in Chicago and uh our EA is is on the agenda to talk about to try to spear ahead getting that moving so I hope to bring some good news to you guys on on the EA shortly uh any questions when when's that meeting uh that meeting is today wasn't it today yeah okay this morning I have one question so I know Adam has a problem on the South Side there's a lot of other hangers that have a problem on the southide with drainage andette are are you interested in looking at any of that I mean during heavy rains some of them could have a float plane taxi out so exactly yes there's there's definitely standing water issues on the South Side um as of right now the the project we have is is more focused on what's going on to the east of the parking lot that was put in for the big hanger uh the rest of that there there are future plans but we don't have any plans to be able to do anything on that this summer but we we are aware of it and we're looking into Solutions so it happens on the North side too I was going to add that uh where capap and where my hanger is it it just nowhere for the water to go as you know it's mostly clay underneath that couple inches of dirt uh it'd be nice if they decide to mitigate that too because there's a few rows there that we're all pushing each the water out and if it goes out of my hanger it goes into the next one and that it it just has nowhere to go and it's been that way for years so yeah I see Pat notd in his head too so it' be nice to find out if we could mitigate it on a North End too actually I think it's gotten worse I've been I've built my hanger in 85 I think it was yeah and it was dry for the first 10 or more years maybe 15 and now I I have standing water in the winter time it melts and blows in I can't get rid of it yeah you just can't put it anywhere and I'm sure if you put a sum pump in it's just going to come back you know so there's nothing we can really do unless something's done on Mac's behalf yeah we have a similar issue on Lima Lane yep drainage issues everywhere we're we do have Consultants looking into a lot of different issues but I'll make sure I I don't let them forget about the north side that it may be getting worse over the years so yeah we can try to look into that as well thank you the last thing I wanted to mention I I did I was able to meet with uh commissioner isers uh yesterday for a tour and I just wanted to put the invitation out to to everybody else uh you know if if you wanted to tour some of the facilities that you might not have seen yet or are not familiar with um in addition to this airport 101 for the Commissioners that we're going to talk about you know reach out anytime and uh I can I can get you out to drive around the airport thank you uh go ahead okay I do have a question on the EA that um has been simmering for I don't know how many years now six five years um is there a stop date is there like a date certain where this will be complete I don't have that information at this time I honestly can't tell you if if there is a stop date or not all I can say is we're continuing to to push forward and uh you know just by the fact that we have our our CEO and coo pushing the point today this morning um I feel like that's a good sign of of of some progress that we haven't had in the past couple years right any other questions uh next item is the aircraft noise complaints and operations summary for quarter 1 you want to do the rate increase oh yeah so Sam going back to the previous item the rate increase nope sorry yeah um yeah just a a quick update the um the the administration for the reliever Department held uh a couple public meetings uh for the um anybody any tenant that was at any of the airports to come and and and learn about that um basically they they presented their formulas on how they got to some of the the rate increases that the commercial tenants mostly will see um there there weren't there was actually a proposal for a decrease for just normal storage tenants from 3.3% per year down to 3% um so I think that's why uh none of the storage tenants uh were able to make those meetings because there was a decrease but um yeah that's just a way to even out where where the increases have been going over the past I don't know how many years it's been since the last increase but um there there is more information coming out on this there's a public hearing currently in the works of being scheduled um in order for an ordinance to be changed you got have to have a public hearing so more information to come uh via newsletter on that and one of the proposals was to drop the sublease fee um in mhm you know sub the subas fee you're a hanger owner you and you own you rent a Subs space to somebody else there was a fee involved with that that's proposed to go away it's not it's part of the ordinance that they're looking at changing um so as a part of the rack committee we were just shown the overview of kind of the process that was followed I guess uh to me personally I thought the process was uh fair and it was done diligently wasn't halfhazard was based on as much data as you can when you're forecasting the future so seem to be a reasonable look at making sure that uh that the uh the airports relever airports in general we moving towards self-sufficiency is a and not putting at all the burden on any one factor of the whole system so anyway it's the details are still coming out and come like Sam mentioned the public hearing and all of that but u i I'd encourage everybody to look at it with open mind just look at what was done and how it was done and and see if you agree that the process was done with uh you know diligence and good intent for everyone so any more questions or comments about that or else we'll move on to the uh complaint report thank you Mr chair the um Metropolitan airports commission collects aircraft noise complaint information through various means basically in any form that someone submits information to us we will document that um 24 hours a day we have a hotline available for people to leave information about particular aircraft operations and then the Mac will take that um complaint information and try to match it up with specific aircraft operations based on the details that are provided to us we will respond to complaints whenever we're asked to we generally um will respond through the method that was um communicated with us so if somebody left a phone call then we would generally call them back if they left an email we would generally email them back but again we're we pretty much will'll respond to whoever um and however somebody's requesting us um to look into something we use our flight tracker data for um investigating the complaints we also make all of our flight tracking information available um through that tool at mcn.com folks can use that tool to look up details about operations or just get um current Runway use um it's a busy airspace around the Twin Cities and lots going on so um this has been a very good tool for people to use as a reference and we're getting a lot of great feedback about that particularly right now I don't know if you you're aware we do have some Runway closures at MSP which is um making the airspace a little bit challenging um in quarter 1 of 2024 all the runways were available at MSP and at any at all of the other Mac airports and so um we will take all of the complaint information and produce a quarterly report for the reliever airports we publish that on our website this here is data for quarter 1 2024 representing the number of complaints we received and it also Compares um how much um uh complaint activity came through this year compared to last year for the same period for 2024 there's only one complaint and there were no complaints last year for quarter one so that's 100% increase but um the complaint that we did receive um was a household near Northern the northern Twin Cities area so it's just south of Anoka County Blaine airport not in the vicinity of the airlake airport um and that's also one of the benefits of the flight tracker is people can look up and actually pinpoint which airport they want to tag their complaint to so even though this particular household um lives um in in the northern metro area they were able to identify that um a helicopter operation U was disturbing to them and that helicopter originated from airlake airport which is why that complaint is here if you look at the column chart at the bottom you'll see that we show the monthly totals of complaints going back three years so it's this year compared to last year and then the year before that and relatively speaking if you look across the year and each month we really don't have a high volume of complaints that come uh through for airlake airport airlake is actually one of the lowest complaint uh level airports in the Mac system um but there are times of the year when people are more sensitive to aircraft operations and coincidentally when aircraft operations volume does increase which is generally going to be spring uh spring and summer months so um when you look at the blue the blue columns that stand out in that chart you can see those are complaint volumes from 2022 in um April May and June and those are related to Flight Training for the most part um at this point I'll turn it over to Sam he'll talk about the actual air the aircraft operation volume yep as you can see on the chart uh so quarter by quarter um from last year quarter one looked like we have a 1,650 operation increase uh this year so um number of factors that could be could be the better weather at the beginning of of the year um uh and and and possibly more more fair weather flying for you know transient tenants flight school flight school so um yeah so just an increase of operations not a whole lot more nighttime actually there was a few less but um a lot more operations and not an increase in in in noise complaints so I think that's a good sign right and any questions about that report other way otherwise we will move on to the uh noise abatement recommended practices item okay thank you I have a little um a very short presentation that just gives you an overview of the work that we've been doing for updating the noise abate information for airlake airport when we all met um when this committee met in in March I did share with you a draft of what we were proposing for the update to include and the the AAC work plan does include um the number one item to review the noise abatement plan and pilot guide so before you today in your packet you do have the final version of the um what the up what we're proposing the update to include um just briefly I'll I'll say we are changing the title of that document the document was called noise abatement plan um in your packet you'll see the title is noise abatement recommended practices I'm going to propose again that we change the title to noise abatement information and that that is consistent with how the Federal Aviation Administration is standardizing their terminology for these voluntary measures at every airport um that has a noise abatement plan so um I know the packet says noise abatement recommended practices but in your motion today I'm hoping that you will also agree to change the title to noise abatement information instead of that um recommended practices title and if you don't like um noise abatement information for the title another um U recommendation from the Federal Aviation Administration would be to title the document as noise abatement best practices in the plan itself we do have um some fairly um standard things we we talk about the takeoff and approach um these are recommendations that the Mac is suggesting for Pilots to consider when they oper their aircraft everything in this document is voluntary so there there's no rules per se but these are suggestions and things that we are um asking Pilots to do to help keep the noise complaint level down to help keep the Airport operating in a standardized way um we are following um the recommendations from both NBAA and aopa um both of those pilot organizations do have recommendations for noise abatement measures um the traffic pattern is another section in the document and we are um saying that we would like to keep the noise abatement I'm sorry the traffic pattern altitude to be a th000 feet for piston aircraft 1,500 feet for Turbine or Turbo Jet Air U turbo prop aircraft and then we are also suggesting that Pilots try to avoid stop and goes we'd like um full stop um taxi back or um avoid Touch and Go operations during nighttime hours those are two um highly recommended um measures that we'd like to Pilots to follow and the maintenance runup area is another um um place that we've updated the document the on your in your packet and on the screen you'll see there's a map of the airport the purple box represents where we are suggesting the new location to be for maintenance run-ups there's a difference between a maintenance runup and a pre-departure runup a predeparture runup is a fairly quick last minute check before the aircraft takes off but a maintenance runup is more of a high power longer duration engine testing um that takes place after maintenance Maybe maybe was conducted or just to help troubleshoot something that might be ongoing with the aircraft so the purple box that shows up on the map is um an an area um that we're recommending for just the the maintenance run-ups to take place typically a predeparture runup um for folks who might not be familiar that that usually takes place at that end of the runway that you're actually going to use for departure so there's that that is another difference and then the last piece that I'll touch on here is um we're creating a fly neighborly guide and that fly neighborly guide is a concise um representation of what the measures are in the noise abatement um recommended practices so it's it the fly neighborly guide is intended to be concise and easy reference one page um just a quick reference for Pilots to use both while they're operating the aircraft but also refer to in their flight planning process so what you see on the screen here is what that that fly neighborly guide will be but before we can actually create the fly neighborly guide we have to have a finalization of the actual recommended practices so what we're asking you all today to do is um accept the documentation that we've provided in the noise abatement um information and um recommend that we move forward with that of course we are certainly open to any suggestions or um questions that you might have at this time thank you for the information is there any questions comments have you uh landed on your final title I would like it to be noise abatement information if this group agrees ultimately what I'm going to do is ask for a motion to accept the noise abatement document changing the name to noise abatement information and with the highlight of that um the runup whatever you call it section well question or comment so calling information kind of like just general information and I understand that these are voluntary um compliance but so in my from my point of VI call more of a best practices is a more of a polite suggestion not so much a directive but a little bit more than hey here's some information um personally I would prefer that I was going to say something along those lines as well that best practices implies some type of action even if it's voluntary action as opposed to information so I I think I think that would be from a title standpoint and what we expect out of the users and would like to conve to the users I think that makes sense good good points uh anybody uh have any other comments on that I guess I I probably have one comment um regarding the maintenance run-ups I mean I think it should be when practical um because you know we're obviously performing maintenance and we can't we're not going to pack up all our tools and bring them to the other side of the airport so the ramp in front of the maintenance hanger we have to do maintenance on the aircraft so I would say you know looking at the map I understand why you put it in that location but if you actually just where the maintenance hanger is it's still the same distance South as far south as the place you selected and the hanger provides a a great deal of a sound barrier to the north so I mean personally I think our ramp is is probably a very good location to do run-ups because you know where the hanger is you got that great big huge hanger and it it keeps this the sound going to the south towards Farms how often do maintenance run up it's it's not that often but it's it's every single annual every 100 hour so you bring the airplane out without the cowl you do a run up on the engine okay you have to have your tools there you're checking timing you're doing different things it averages just 10 15 minutes and then you cowl up the airplane so it's very impractical to perform that work on the other side of the runway on a taxiway so um I guess the I don't think it's practical from a maintenance perspective would an alternative location be on the North side yeah our our ramp um effectively if you know if you took your purple box and you just just put put it towards the center of the field right where our maintenance hanger is it's actually the exact same distance South there's no gain there's no net gain to put it over on the other side I guess for I I I personally don't understand why it's there I'd like to make a very practical Point um my hanger Partners do a fair amount of work and to Adam's point the hangers um can be block for noise so there's been a number of times where on Mike Lane um twin engine there two of them um cen's off tool boxes are there just I'm going to tell you straight up they're not going to taxi that airplane across field put the tool boxes in pickup truck tweak it put it back together and drive it back they're going to go open up the hanger door work on the plane do a run up and take care problem so I think back to the title best practices yes um big part of this is we're dealing with humans in reality it's just not going to change I think your mechanics are going to pop the door do a run up right by your hanger and I think the guys I'm referring to who are very skilled people they don't run planes longer than they need to but it it would be just a huge problem you move all the way across the field with all the equipment and then come back right you know to put this in perspective um the average person flies 50 to 60 hours a year okay they have one annual performed so all of the ga people that own aircraft out there there's typically one to two maintenance run-ups annually on their aircraft for 5 minutes so and it's no louder than the run up before you take off um actually less less so um on the maintenance side you know our flight school we're probably putting 1100 hours on our aircraft so we're doing it 11 Time 5 so we're doing 55 you know maintenance runoffs a year and once again they're no longer or louder than the runoff before you take off so I mean it's a very very small number and um you know if you look at the number of operations 8,000 operations that's 8,000 run-ups and during that time frame there was probably 10 maintenance run-ups on the field you know so it's something that we're addressing I I I get that I understand that but I don't know if it's if it's even needed just a piggyback on that um in terms of all the reliever airport were the quietest we have the fewest complaints and the compl have always been Airborne not ground based I think that's something to be considered also um secondary thought to that is there's some good points in here I'm curious to know how it' be communicated to the field if everyone would get a copy put it at the door if it's at you know the FBO or just what the mechanism would be I just have a question as well um what what does decision-making process was was used to put your maintenance your run up maintenance run up at this particular location where it is currently wased on the map well I think uh you know this this plan did have a maintenance runup in there to the south side of the runway in the taxiway that now is being used by more aircraft than previously were there originally so that's why we kind of just shifted it out into an actual runup area for the Runway but and I understand all of your points I was going to make a comment similar to uh Mr wolberts but uh with personal tenants doing maintenance on their own aircraft where should they go can they go to the front of the maintenance hanger if needed or do their neighbors are are speaking to the other tenants in the room are you bothered by a neighbor of yours doing a maintenance runup at all I mean main maintenance run-ups on small planes like ours are really short in fact it's it's not good to run them very long because the engines aren't being cooled properly if the pings are off so I mean whenever I've done a run up on my plane after an annual inspection or any any kind of work it's at most a minute at most you're just looking to get make pressure comes up on the oil or something and then and everything all looks good and they shut it down don't let it heat up okay yeah I think when you look at uh in the maintenance R upset you talk about run-ups in excess of 5 minutes and like Mr Monahan has said most of the run-ups that we're talking about and I think the panel is addressing fits within that five minutes uh I know where I work at the Fleming airport occasionally we will have run-ups of airplane that we've recently rigged especially a turbo prop airplane that we do not want to do on the ramp and we'll move out to an area that's more convenient uh for all of the other users of the airport and I think that's what you're trying to get at here is something that's going to be an extended runup period so you're not uh tying up a runup pad and blocking other people's uh access to the runway so I I I support what you have here and I I believe listening to the discussion for the most part the five minute run-ups are not what you're concerned about and addressing and I think that's what the majority of people are seeing here would um would it be possible like in that section A 3A it says conduct all engine tests and maintenance run-ups to do conduct extended engine tests and maintenance run-ups in excess of 5 minutes only in a designated area and leave the restro to people's discretion certainly we can make that change yeah that makes I one comment I got a lot of times when you see this it's for the transients that may come in that don't know where they can do things and it's kind of telling them okay this is the best practice which we just discussed TR to go over there to do it so you're not blowing all the sand at everybody's hanger and and uh you know painting all the cars in the parking lot with sand and stuff like that so it's more of a advisory I think than it is mandatory but I do agree with the you getting rid of maybe all because that really kind of says you will do instead of you should do I can make that change from all to Extended all right so any other comments on that what I'm what I'm hearing so far just from the conversation is there's a strong preference for the title to be noise abatement best practices and for that section 3A uh replacing conduct all engine tests to conduct extended engine tests and um was there anything else I think that covered it I had a couple others if uh you you'd indulge me uh in section one take off and approach section d uh we talk about when aircraft departing with variable pitch propellers reduce manifold pressure and engine RPM manifold PR pressure does not contribute to noise engine RPM does so I I would remove the manifold pressure uh reference in there uh a general comment in section two uh traffic pattern section c talks about keeping the traffic pattern legs as short as possible possible I think we also uh intend to be the the downwind how far we're spaced from the runway one of the things operating at airlake that I have noticed recently is the traffic pattern size can grow and grow and grow so I I think this is important for noise and basement I think it's also important for the efficiency of aircraft operations at the airports I I think it's something that we need to emphasize and share with all of the users of the airport to keep the airport traffic pattern to a size uh recommended by the FAA and then the last one that I had Jennifer was uh in Section Five Night Time operations um point a avoid operating aircraft is redundant with the last sentence of the Preamble and section c avoiding intersection takeoffs and stop and go is redundant with Section 2D of the document so I I just wanted to point those out if you want to make changes could you repeat the last one uh the uh in section five nighttime operations uh Point C avoid intersection takeoffs and stop and go is redundant with Section 2D where we're talking about that for all operations daytime and nighttime if I can add one clarifying question 5D you have avoid lowlevel flyovers of the airport are you addressing uh like shooting missed approaches or what does that uh entail it would be mised approaches or it would be um an approach where you're coming in and um doing your flyover and then entering the pattern and and Landing like an overhead like an overhead approach you that what they're thinking of I don't know this I'm asking yes I don't know if it does that question someone that's not a pilot um what's a stop and go I know what a touch and go is what's a stop and go so stop and go is where you would land the airplane come to a full stop and then commence another takeoff okay so at nighttime when we are working on our currency the FAA says to be current at night we have to do a landing to a full stop so this is saying what we don't want Pilots to do is land the airplane stop in the middle of the runway and then start another takeoff roll we'd prefer them to go back to the beginning of the runway and get airborne again okay great thank you you're welcome all right any other comments or suggestions we've done some pretty heavy work in this document here I think that's good did I understand the answer to 5D is that is a missed approach not to do that uh that was the intent of my question I wasn't sure what low-l pass meant because if you're doing currency or instrument currency you're doing a missed approach you're going to have to do a lowl passas it it has more to do with a low approach um so not necessarily Landing a missed approach would be considered um an emergency situation um but but if it's not an emergency situation we would prefer that that not happen so the it's the difference between a low approach versus a mised approach would be have that emergency component in it um it's also when you pass over the airport and then enter the flight pattern or enter the traffic pattern um we would prefer that Pilots not do the overhead um approach onto the runway we would prefer that they would enter the pattern maybe on a 45 to the downwind leg or something like that instead of the overhead does that make sense um yeah I understand what you're saying I'm not understanding the why of it if you come in and you're above well clear of the pattern altitude and you do a teardrop entry into the 45 um I do that a lot not not here but other airports I don't understand the downside to that it's merely reducing the operation at um non approach power settings um okay so in I'm just trying to visualize it I'm coming in from the north you you're thinking I should go south over chub Lake come back up you know 45 into the downwind for 30 Z rather than going overhead peer drop to a 45 yes that's exactly right that would be a preference but again this is a voluntary document and what we're trying to achieve is to have fewer aircraft operating at the airport um with patterns or legs that they that that they don't need to operate if there's a way to reduce the amount of time and engine setting and noise that's resulting from those things that's the objective and certainly want you to operate your CRA safely and not interfere with the safe operation of your aircraft but if there's a way to avoid an overhead approach the idea is to reduce that access path over the airport at a at an at a power setting that would not be an approach power setting yeah I understand your intent but I think the the process is wrong because you're actually going to fly a longer leg if if I come in you the pilot guys can help me with this you come in uh Northbound here drop to a 45 downwind um my tack time is going to be a lot less than it would be if I go chub Lake I downwind in and if I do the teardrop I'm over fields then you have the factory stuff there you know the where those buildings Amazon or whatever it is they're over nonresidential by doing the teardrop if I go around the East Side come down and come back up now I'm actually over homes so I understand your intent I I just think the methodology is not right probably also a reduced power setting if you're doing that because you're reduced power setting not high power setting you're you're coming down at the same time that little plane doesn't have that option yeah overhead you're you're going to be you know pretty much Glide what if we just stated I agree with you what if we just State avoid unnecessary low-level approaches at the airport I think that the lowlevel this whole discussion has been different than the way I read this initially because I I read it as something below traffic pattern altitude um and I and I excluded missed approaches from that in my mind when I read it because that is typically executed and you're climbing out over the airport because if we're add or above traffic pattern you know I wouldn't consider a th000 ft yeah that's not 200 feet the the idea was to sneak into the airport and sneak out of the airport and reduce the amount of time that you're in the air and at at power settings that are not approach power settings if there I'm happy to make the change to avoid unnecessary low-level flyovers yeah that makes unnecessarily makes sense sense thank you for that feedback yeah great uh great feedback any other comments or questions on this and I'm I'm starting to get a sense that there's a lot of changes in here and I'm so in terms of looking for approval is this something that we could get a new draft and look at at the next meeting or is this something that the timeliness requires us to do an approval right now the the timeliness is important because the sooner we can finalize this then the sooner we can create that F fly neighborly guide and publish it and and and I didn't get a chance um to address your question about distribution um but commissioner isers we we would mail this out to tenants on the airport but we would also like to put this electronically into the forf flight tool that's being used by the pilots when they're doing their navigation work and their flight planning work so ideally it would be great to move forward with this today um because this gr group would not meet again until September and my my quote unquote FL Ling season is now sure past us so um I if you would like I can review what I going ask you to do I going to ask you to review the changes that we discussed and that would be made to the document and once you do that we'll just look for a motion to approve that in a second okay uh we're going to change the title to noise abatement best practices we are going to section two 2C I'm going to add a note for um keep traffic pattern legs as short as possible and close to the airport without risking safy safety and the intent is to incre reduce noise and increase efficiency as recommended by the FAA the section 3A conduct extended engine tests and maintenance run-ups in excess of 5 minutes only in a designated area see map the map does show a purple box that box is going to remain where that box is located now in um section five we will remove a and we will remove C we will modify D to say avoid unne necessary lowlevel flyovers at the airport so that section will just have an an a b and c in the end um I'm sorry we'll only have an A and A B we're removing um two of the bullet points in that section excellent thank you that makes sense okay uh does anyone wish to make a motion to approve this sure motion to approve as defined by jennif second I will second all right so we have a motion in a second uh any further discussion friendly Amendment a motion to approve it with the recommended changes yes and uh all right so we have that motion we have it seconded uh all in favor say I I anyone opposed all right Mr chair can we um confirm it was commissioner isers who made the motion and no the first commissioner walber oh I'm sorry um commissioner Walbert and then the second was Adam Adam okay all right and Jennifer I have to leave I have another commitment can I I will be turning the meeting over to my co-chair Mr Fitz Henry and I will leave it in your capable hands sir okay all right okay after after all that fun discussion uh are we on item number nine now okay let's move to item number nine okay so the airport uh 101 and tour discussion for the Commissioners um we wanted to kind of give you guys an option and then ultimately have you guys discuss and and and come up with a plan moving forward um what I'd recommend is uh offering a tour of the airlake airport either both before and after the next Commission meeting in in September for any commissioner that would like to take part in that um and then during that meeting having an agenda item with an airport 101 kind of familiarization course uh as part of that and then moving forward from there uh and any new Commissioners at the two-year timeline or you know in the middle of a term if uh if anybody has to step down for a reason and a new commissioner take over that spot uh to offer that as a one-on-one uh with myself so that prior to their first meeting on this on this advisory commission they've already taken part in in an airport 101 and learned a little bit more about the airport familiar familiarization uh can go a long ways so um that would be my recommendation open up for discussion I just did this yesterday and I learned a ton um even though I've been to the airport before um I learned a lot about I got to hear the radio and um Sam's a great tour guide and I highly recommend it to anybody that's not familiar with airports in general and and then just learn about the one that you live next to yeah I I would agree Sam are you thinking you'd have like a hand hand out or something like that part of my thought was um I've done this with st uh school kids same thing what's an airport a Runway is a chunk of concrete but it has two numbers right 3012 how can you have two runways on the same piece of concrete so I don't know if you're going to have like a little take-home packet with something like that image that we have on the board here with a nice aerial view that shows of acronyms what an FBO um well things like that so it it can be if you're a non-f flyer and you walk into this it can be a fire HOSA information you'll retain 10% of it and the rest is going to be gone the next day so just a suggestion yeah and I guess what I had thought about was uh a PowerPoint presentation during the meeting and that PowerPoint presentation would kind of become uh you know I take home take home material and and then in addition to that the Hands-On tour I think yeah that would be enough yeah I think it'd be invaluable the the other is the last discussion we just had unless you're a pilot and if you're a pilot you can visualize what we're talking about with a pattern peer drop entry 45 to downwind all of that if you don't know what that is it's probably a foreign language so it's hard to have engagement with the board um you're educated with the basic functionality of how your uncontrolled airport works I think it's great you're doing it I got a comment uh I know you you got September 12th on it but most of us have been through it would it be nice if we could just recommend or they could talk to you about doing that tour because I'm not sure all of us need to go on it if you get what I'm saying we've been there we you know especially the pilots I'm probably in and out what three times a day but uh for those that might why you don't have to wait till September 12th recommend that they are you know that the manager probably would do that tour or they would be uh somebody that could give them that tour of the airport when they come in because it's important to know how that airport Works before you get here I agree with that and the 101 isn't that online is that a YouTube um not not the one I'm thinking thinking of I think we potentially we can take that back and you know if okay if I want to know about air Lake I punch it and you got a great presentation just has to be narrated make it available and that way it's to them sooner right yeah I'm I'm definitely open for sooner than the 12th if that's what the commission decides here I'm not saying don't do it then but i' I'd like to see it you know they get it easier faster Mr chair we do have some comments from Michelle Ross who's um joining the meeting remotely Michelle do you w to say what you have to say yeah absolutely can you guys hear me okay y can you hear me okay yes yeah okay thank you so yep I am the manager for community relations at the Metropolitan airports commission um I just wanted to let you know that as Jennifer mentioned we we do have some airport construction um at MSP um and so we are trying to coordinate the timing of the tour to best accommodate staff capacity where we have a little bit of a limited capacity um on our team we've had some Mo movement within the team um and we have a we have like I said this um pretty impactful construction that's ongoing at MSP and so we we were trying to be considerate of the timing of the tour to to account for that as well okay I understand yeah I understand her comment uh I don't know if any other members got it I mean you could still keep that for those that might need it you know on the 12th if that's if they want to meet with more mac staff but I I like the idea of having it available too maybe on a YouTube or whatever that uh you it'd be great for the flight schools to say okay look at this before you go flying and see what's going on so you know what's going on at a lake and maybe you could put a bit in there about language they use on the radio you become a YouTube St chair if I if I could could note um we do have quite a few um airport 101 uh presentations on YouTube but they're a little bit more geared toward MSP we do have a general aviation video on YouTube but um again a lot of the materials that we have um prepared are um or kind of what we have prepared at this time and we you know we can um try and accommodate as best as possible um and we will definitely take that into consideration if we're able to provide additional resources okay and it might be as simple as if he does the next 101 weape it or video it and I think it's important that it be um somewhat cater to air Lake because if you're looking at what's going on at MSP it's it's going to be completely different because it's a completely different aircraft and if you could on your tours if you could also arrange for somebody to be doing a runup like you did sorry I've never knew they did that I I think your comment about getting to hear the radio and see the radio and that that brings you into you know your question about what's a stop and go versus a touch and go versus you know they addressing those things and sharing those things I think uh the one-on-one aspect or the one on a group of people uh personalizes it more than a YouTube video yeah so I don't know if we answer your question or we gave you comments but more yeah are you looking for a recommendation or do you understand what we've said we we really open to how the group would like to proceed um and if if if this um September 12th plan is is not really what works best for the group we we're certainly able to make an a different plan so um I think we can take back what you've suggested and we can think about how we want to move forward with that unless you do have a specific um recommendation that you would like like us to follow I think what we'll do is um go back and figure out how how we want to handle what what we do on the agenda for September 12th and of course when we meet with the leadership um um the co-chairs and Max staff usually meet uh to plan the agenda for the these each one of these AAC meetings and so we certainly could um present um the ideas at the next leadership meeting um that um you chair it's Henry and chair bural would be able to agree with or or not and I wanted to mention too that we're not forgetting that there's six alternates that are right part of this too that should also be included in the invite there um so quite a few people I think still need to get some familiarization with with the report as well okay I get what you're saying and also it might be opportunity for other council members here or farming ten or whatever City to get in there you might want to limit it I know you don't have a you know 80 passenger bus to do this but so um does anybody have any recommendation they wish to have or if we do it prior to the meeting I I think that doesn't give you enough time or opportunity so if we were to do it at a meeting uh would that be the only meeting we would have in September or no we this group typically meets quarterly we hold um a Cadence of the second Thursday of you know the the quarterly meeting so it would be September and then after September it would be December um and then March would be the next meeting and um June but that is very flexible based on you all and how the membership would prefer to hold those meetings therefore if a special meeting is needed the co-chairs have the prerogative to schedule a a special meeting if you'd like to just you know have this conducted on a one-on-one basis that's perfectly fine as well it's we're really here to serve all of you okay do we have any need to have uh for us one of these I my suggestion would be is that if you do this yet we don't conduct it during our meetings so we don't have our business disrupted if you want to call it that but have this available to whomever you're going to have to put a cap on it who really would like this meeting you know it could be a concerned citizen somebody that just moved in or you know you might even invite some Realtors so they can talk about what's going on in the neighborhood to people you know about should I buy a home here in this area so that would be my recommendation I guess it sounds like we would just pick an alternative date for this tour right sometime whenever is convenient for you you know a little bit of a Runway no pun intended people put it on their schedule whatever is convenient for you yeah is there is is there a showing of here who's interested in having a tour okay I would I would suggest that we meet with those individuals specifically and arrange the tour get very customized tour and then they they made a good comment the ones that aren't here tonight are the alternates that may not show up to a meeting please invite them we will is that clarity now hopefully okay are we good to move on there is one comment I think uh now's a good time to bring it up uh individual online uh Christopher Gardner uh you're representing met Council I believe he said FYI Mano state is in the process of changing the frequency from 1230 the C tap frequency so van's not on her frequency um mean at yeah he said at at m at the end into that too so yeah cuz they are I will clarify that they are going to get a control tower in m in M but they don't affect uh air Lake other than the quantity that comes out of there they're just a lot aircraft I've heard they purchased 30 aircraft within the last couple years so they've increased so much yeah I don't know about the frequency if Nick you you can KN or not uh I don't think bothering us on frequency other than the frequency of they're flying at airports that are on our frequency okay yeah thanks anything else any more comments online no okay okay so uh go to upcoming events uh you want me to just name them or do you have them I'll let Jennifer showman you can show and tell yeah so the uh EAA chapter 25 is having their Father's Day breakfast on Sunday morning and uh we we met with him today uh one of the planners of the event and there it's still planned to go on as on schedule and uh a lot of parking is going to be on the South Side they've outlined some areas that aren't wet and uh and and gone over a review of where to park vehicles and uh we'll have staff there that Sunday to help monitor that situation as well so um that event yes yeah it's paid and then the uh air Lake tenant barbecue is the following Monday uh 4:30 p.m. invites have been sent out via USPS postcard mail and and the News blast on uh online so um excited to have see the tenants out for that we'll be there in full force uh cooking hamburgers and BRS so please come and then uh pan prog July 7th is still on schedule and uh we're all hoping everything dries out by then Pat is there some things you would like to add to the um ppra or the EA breakfast um our I'm part of the Lakefield lines as well and so yeah this is our fly and breakfast I think it's our number 12 year I remember right um when you retire time goes by a little faster you forget but anyway it's going to be at the Adam super hanger down there on the South Side um uh We've over the years we've um tweaked and finessed our um U done some industrial engineering and we are now zeroing in on improving our service lines to have U no waiting just walk and um so that's going to be an improvement for this year um the other thing is we're offering tickets online uh purchasing online at a discount or at the door a little bit $2 uh higher there uh but the so encouraging people to go to the pag. org website and purchase your liing breakfast tickets uh things that are planned are the commemorative Air Force is bringing in some of their aircraft we have some helicopters that are planning to be there weather dependent um the Mac is going to have some equipment on display for the kids to climb around and paint and have a good time with uh it's always been a hit every place they've ever done it U there's going to be several uh Aviation related booths there um the um of course Olaf flight school will be there um there's the EAA chapter we have a a booth there talking about what they do as well is their young Eagle program which are the free flights for kids that occur down there in the third Saturday every month um the plan is to have one of the business Jets open for visual for viewing so I can walk in and look and see what I get inside but look through the door and see what what it's like to have a business Jetter to look at one um so I guess um it's going to be from 7:30 to 11:30 um and yes we're we're praying for still dry weather because we uh we have last year we had uh about 550 or 600 cars parked in that area that's now pretty dark wet so we're hoping that it dries out for anyway uh there any questions I well P could you be specific on the date at the airport oh sorry uh yes it's the 7th of July 7:30 to 11:30 the other thing that I should mention too is uh since we're out the south side and the parking is quite a ways we're making some big improvements on shuttle shuttling people from the far parking area to the event um we contracted with a company that has a people mover trailer it's going to be pulled by a truck so we're we're doing we can what we can to make it even more familyfriendly than it's been so thank you okay I think we covered the events and then uh member comments uh I'll just go around start with Adam anybody have any comments they want to interject now I don't anybody none here I talk plenty anything online that we need to check with them any members online okay hearing none we'll move on to announcements uh none from me okay um we'll review uh the schedule and the next meeting uh September 12th depending on what we do with the uh the tour and that and then December 12th uh 2024 and if we have nothing else I say we're adjourned thank you everybody