"good evening welcome to the uh January 22nd Lakeville city council work session you join me with a moment of silence and pledge of pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all I think the next thing is Citizens comments is there any citizen comments look like it okay uh we're moving on to item 3A which is a legislative round table uh and our kind of our legislative priorities and um I'll highlight a couple of things for folks but if we wanna if you're here for that Jeff if you guys just want to introduce yourselves with some of those from the staff right come on last year so I we'll start with Jeff kind just I am uh Jeff Woody I'm a state representative for 7B here in Lakeville I'm Mar liberg Dakota County Commissioner for most of Lake uh Zack duor Senate District 57 Wendy Wolf Council Bill Dy Dakota County Commissioner District Four and the piece that Mary lives does not have by life staff East should good and then Alison from Congressman Craig's office Al Greg Congressman Craig thanks y so um we kind of do this every year we really appreciate the opportunity to kind of chat about some of the city priorities we had a discussion in December EXC me November and adopted on some of these and they're pretty similar to last year other than um we made a few changes in um some areas but nothing um out there other than I think at the end of the day we default on local control when it comes to any the big issues that are happening with capital as you can probably imagine um some of the things that will continue to be a key Focus for us um obviously is the able to fund the regional public safety training facility which we're actually talking about tonight um the County Road 50 and 35 interchange project which you know continues to be one of the larger issues in the city from a cost standpoint and trying to figure out exactly how to tackle that and whether that's kind of a peace meal approach or the entire portion um I think council member Walter told me and I think the Z it's now the top priority of the 35 I35 Alliance so all the cities that are on 35 from Minneapolis to Elco have put that as their top priority um so it continues to be for us it's I believe it's the County's top um transportation issue at the state as well so um those are some of the two biggest highlights there's one other issue that's not in here that I just wanted to raise today um and that it's kind of a small tweak thing actually Senator Duckworth has the bill for this but there's if you follow along this conversation about the Minneapolis 2040 comp plan there's been some lawsuits about how they want to implement that plan and one of the lawsuits would actually impact almost every city um that does a comprehensive plan it would require require each comp plan to go through environmental review um through the Minesota Environmental Research Act is that quality board qu okay um and so there some of the cities are starting to talk about it and the league of cities actually put a little blur in their legisl legislative priorities but we had not talked about this last fall but uh personally I think it makes sense to to tweet that I don't don't think a comp plan should have to go under environmental review obviously each project by project should go into the review of an entire comp plan I don't even know how from a staff standpoint we could even do that um how long it would take the amount of money it would take to do that I mean it just it's absurd so that's in the courts um so assuming that the courts didn't a rule in favor of Minneapolis that would be a problem that we would have to figure out to address so having a legislative fix would be important any other highlights that I missed that anybody else in the council want bring up mayor there's one that I just learned about literally 10 minutes before we walked in but um the city Lake will participate in several solar garden projects across the state well around here um and it produces a significant amount of savings to the city of Lakeville basically we pay a certain amount on electric bills to participate in these solar FMS so that we can not have to buy them but the energy is then put in the grid we get credits then from the developers who put these in it sounds like there might be a push at the session to cut that amount of credit I think Excel is really pushing that that this BEC more expensive for them um and what I've learned is that cities and school districts especially if those credits are cut we are going to be on the hook for that um and that was never part of the discussion when these were put into place and so um you know over the life of it um these three I think we anticipated saving about a million dollars over the 20 years for all of them and we're well into that and if those were to be cut um that would be a significant for for our taxpayers so did you hear other cities talking about that or the we or I actually just read an article just putting the start Tri this evening about it so okay and sorry the one other one the big issue that I did we did had not in our um priorities last year but popped up from the legislature which is the school resource officer issue which is continues to be um important for our city to be able to make sure that the law is corrected so that's another new provision um so I just wanted also if you had any questions or legislators or Commissioners on anything that's in there um or there's also an opportunity if you want to just give a couple minutes on your thoughts about session and kind of how you want to see that play out so I'm gonna defer to Zack fsus because you're an office air longer than jeck okay sir SS good um well then we're gonna go by that we should defer to Mary Liz for sure well start Jing uh I think what would be most helpful for me in given our discussion and because I did promise commissioner Holberg this was my number one priority is the uh County Road 50 and 35b uh Interstate exchange is just maybe talking about where we are right now I know that congresswoman Craig and the federal government are are stepping up to the plate to help us with that I know the county it's important to them uh Jeff John and I have been working at it from the state standpoint so just I guess a fresh where things currently stand and what is it that we need to bring together in order to keep moving it Forward aside from you know 50 some million dollars in the next bonding Bill Mar your probably the most well well um I mean we're at a point where we've gotten some engineering funds from the feds you know the city has kicked in a significant portion of money over the years acquiring land and some other things and it's a it's a matter of staging the project I think the bridge is 26 million um so I think the request for the bridge from the county was 13 million for went through bonding the entire project to actually fix the bottleneck problem in addition to all the interchanges is 20 million and some change I think um and you know at the end of the day none no entity is GNA be able oh okay Bill's telling me depends on what you opting okay that's so the 26 is what's the county road underneath the county has said we'll put up 13 we're ask in the state for 13 to the county beyond that you could go 60 for just the bridge and The Interchange or you you're you're knocking on 200 million if you're talking about Min pass from Burnsville the project we we got State money too for the planning thank you um and the initial study showed that we shouldn't stop at 50 we need to go down to 185th Street and if you can imagine just like the one thing like if you're getting on at Perkins to go south and to get off to go to Super Target there's no Frontage roads on either side but there's no slip lane either so you have to actually have to merge on and then get off an easy fix there is to do a slip lane so that you'd have that merge in and out and hopefully alleviate some of the backup on so they recognized it got mot's attention let's put it that way the the study did and then the last round of quarters of comers we scored the highest of any project that wasn't funded Statewide we actually tied with the lowest funding in the donut you know Reid the quarters of Commerce how the money got had so but that project scored Higher by a country mile than anything in Greater Minnesota no include to loose Bridge yeah another four so I I think the time is now the I think the unique thing about 35 Solutions alliances many of our friends north of 494 would just assume see no Road expansion and it induces travel demand and where's my early morning friend here some of the things we hear at that meeting are a little over um but even they recognize that everything North has been done the burns of Bloomington Bridge 494 is fully funded everything South downtown many you know it's kind of like our turn that whole uh travel shed so that's encouraging the mayor worked hard with congresswoman Craig's office to send a letter to Governor walls to to urge his support now he doesn't do Transportation ear marks in his bonding bill because he's still old school you know with the transportation ear marks but I don't know if that helps but we have evolving one page sheet that um we're really concentrating on that first piece because there's just no way until you wi that bridge if you imagine a detour staying on state roads they have to take people off the freeway in Northfield bring them to the east over to three or to the West over to 169 and then they would get them back on a state road again until 13 in Burnsville um so if it's G to be very difficult to shut down that Freeway completely and if so if you do that bridge piece first then you have the ability to shift traffic in lower Lanes on one side or the other so it's I think we can make the case that that's a really important piece the big risk to this is that greenhouse gas bill the pass the projects that aren't in engineering before February of 25 are going to be subject to mitigation as the bill stands if you can imagine the last 494 project in order to mitigate the greenhouse gas and the um the formula they have they would have had to build 100 roundabouts in the Sub sub region to mitigate that project um so there's some that's the biggest risk we need to get going because at some point there's going to be this impact where they're they're trying to reduce vehicle miles travel so so I noticed uh this evening the newspaper start trip Wisconsin Minnesota did receive a billion on the bridge Superior so now this is sort of a small project for to work on in comparison the big ones out of the way well IA County got over a 100 million in ear marks in last bonding bill you know why um and so quite frankly a lot of stuff that's ahead of us on the list or behind us has got funding so it just feels to me like somebody that's been around a really long time that we're close we're very close and we need to keep pushing the uh the thing that we're going to need the most is and we can probably start this process now is figuring out what the exact amounts are what the language of verbage needs to be for the stuff that we get drafted I know in you know the longer it takes the more things need to change amounts go up what have you so if we can make sure that between now and before we start mid-February we have everything exactly as we want it drafted and ready to drop so we can get it heard immediately and keep it in the front burn that will be extremely important so thank you very much any the the only other thing I would add and I'll let Jeff touch on SOS stuff and of course John chime in on a few things too is any tweaks that you might want made to some of the stuff you did get past in the last bonding bill as it relates to the storage train stuff as well as the the regional Public safet Training Facility having that information sooner rather than later if we're going to try to make any changes and or we gonna request funds for a fire station just throwing that out there let us know sooner rather than later so that we can actually look at that get the ball rolling on some that stuff turn over to Jeff um one thing I was going to add about the 35 and and 50 right when I got into office last year I met with the state and uh what we've been talking about projects going off the list uh 49435 it was Raising ours up a little bit and then the Still Water so I agree with Zach and Mary Liz let's have our um discussion points and the match from Dakota county is a big deal I think here that's going to help um and I think that could be the Catalyst um for the city also and get other state fund so I think we're definitely positioned we just need to have all our ducks in a row and and I agree with Zach that the more information we get sooner um there's going to be less bonding money probably this session and uh so whatever we can get is going to be helpful um regarding the sro's um this I uh item was brought to us after last session after it went through uh um education Bill and uh it was pointed out that our our stakeholders were not at the table um we held a press conference we've held Round Table discussions with our um stakeholders from uh law enforcement uh education and community members and then um even uh um some staff and around their teachers and there there is a need for it um we've seen what's happened down in Mano last week in St Louis or St Lou St Louis Park High School so with that said our commitment is always been um to hold them accountable to and hold them to their promise that this will be the first thing uh coming out of session um I know on Zach uh part and my part we do have bills that are ready to go and I know some of this language really uh from 121a in the education part moving it into the 60906 which I think helps law enforcement um I think there's opportunities um and the training comp uh component and then also the uhy that um relates ECT our SRO that is reasonable and once again that that policy has the input from our law enforcement that are there but also another component that hasn't been at the table is our sro's um as a a group um they have a an association and having them at the table that are doing the job because this doesn't just affect um our police officers also is affecting our teachers and our staff and one of the main people that have been missed in this whole discussion and I talk about about it is um our students over 90% of our metro area in the seven County uh area students um want their SRO in their school over 90% so we have to start listening um to them teachers uh our law enforcement and I'm encouraged that we'll have a solution and we'll hopefully hold their feet to the fire i' get these hearings we don't control the hearings we can just bring the bills all along Zach and and our whole caucus on both sides been Reaching Across with a handout um looking for a bipartisan solution so hopefully uh that will happen in the beginning of session and thank you to the city of Lakeville for the stance that you've taken Chief and the clarity you provided and the input and feedback you provided it's been beneficial to the entire Statewide discussion so appreciate it do you have any co-authors to these bills that you have prepped and ready to go uh I had uh a gentleman good friend of mine uh Senator John Hoffman who does belong to the other party express interest in signing on before it became a political controversial issue so we'll see what happens um I'll let any everybody that wants to support the bill sign on to it uh but of course session has to started so we don't have an actual bill to work if just that language and my hope is that yes um but there's already been some uh meetings um that are one-sided again which it's the process of it all that's what got us into into this mess and that's what I unfortunately think is going to if we're going to have a solution I do agree with you we should have co-authors on both sides because I think um be a stronger bill that will get passed there was 44 legislators that said they knew what they signed and uh didn't want to make the change so that's going to be very narrow and if we don't have a seat at the table we're able to work um I do think it makes it tougher that way so it's a great question I'm hoping and uh I keep reaching out and uh hopefully we'll have a bipartisan solution did you wanna if you wanted to share any thoughts about but the one thing that's on here that I thought you might want to update is a council governance stuff how that task force is playing out and all the things you guys figured out well I was down at city house so it was good that none of you were there sorry well this is a good reminder our meetings will be starting at six o'clock shortly in the next few weeks but well notice well I I like this format better I think it's more conducent to a better conversation so I appreciate that from previous years um I think those uh Senator representative covered a lot of uh what to expect from session I think looking back at last session we'll give you a strong indication it gives me a strong indication you may have different opinions of how this session will be um it's going into an election year so I'm never super optimistic of a lot getting done um mayor had asked uh about there's a task force dealing with how the M council is governed and the structure uh commissioner Holberg has worked on this issue for a long time it's it's an issue that's been around as long as the M Council um has been around uh essentially uh there are some uh Senator Dibble uh particularly wants an elected my Council uh many of us are in in the opinion and there's bipartisan opposition to an elected my Council um for a variety of reasons but many of my reasons are that it would become a mini legislature and dominated by the core cities uh and so it would not represent a suburb or an exer like Lakeville uh and other uh areas the needs better um it's a fallacy that it would create more transparency or accountability it would in my opinion add another layer of government uh another person at the end of the ballot that people would just either skip all together or they wouldn't remember who it is right next to the Soil and Water Conservation people if there's any Soil and Water people no offense um you know but you know some people skip over uh even legislative races they'll just go in and put at the top of the ticket so it you know the purpose is to figure out if there's a better governance structure that cities townships counties can um be more uh their Vision be incorporated better into the mech council with their their planning and um budgeting and an elected M Council just doesn't get there for me another option that many other states and or metropolitan areas across the country have uh their current elected Mayors city council people County Commissioners uh they have a regional board it's basically a joint Powers agreement but it's a an established regional board uh that acts as the Metropolitan planning organization to take in funds um and it seems to work uh good enough in other areas in other areas of the Minnesota there's other mpos and so uh with the task force uh there even though it was stacked with Minneapolis residents representing uh certain areas on that task force even though it was stacked with mostly Democrats on that task force there is still very difficult to uh get to consensus which is fine with me uh if we if they had consensus and they're going to push for it in the next couple days we have a report due by February uh it would go into the legislative session they would argue that it gives a little bit of a mandate towards an elected M Council uh that there's strong opposition among Democrats as well um and I'm told even the speaker of the house but don't say that outside this room um so I I feel confident that Lakeville interest will be protected uh by you know at minimum the status quo but there's um you know if we can work towards a council of governments type model where maybe the mayor or appointed city council person or appointed County Commissioner um from Dakota or Scott County or other counties um that would improve a lot of the some of the issues with with met Council one of the things we could do too is the nominating process instead of serving at the pleasure the governor and the local units of government would among themselves decide who will represent a certain District in the mech Council we're also discussing and seem to have uh a little bit of consensus of expanding the number of people on the Met Council I know our met council person Wendy Wolf uh have appreciated working with her uh over the years is always been accessible uh to me and involved in the community um but to take a little off their plate and and have it less staff driven uh there's a little bit of support for adding more seats on the mech ccil so you get a more uh variety of opinions and and less staff driven as the intent but um other than that Senator Duckworth uh mentioned a bonding bill um I'm not optimistic of a bonding bill um I think we could talk about some of these projects I have some concerns um to put it politely on the bonding process that happened last year I was happy to support some of the projects that Lakeville had um and they unfortunately seem to be following apart so I think uh I just say here we need to tighten that up a little bit and we'll leave it at that okay mber did you want add 1535 um just real briefly um the 50 Hamburg uh project with the help of the other commissioner w still to get stuck on that I'm not good sharing I admit it we are that's going to go into engineering ASAP and know City match for the redo and it's recommend it it be a roundabout depending on how they're saying construct in 26 but we'll keep pushing to accelerate that and um dep it will depend a lot on how much right away if any me you have own two two of four forms and then just a heads up they one of the discussion points this year the county will be cost share on roads and what makes sense what other counties are doing um some of the struggle with I mean when I got there it was a 45 Match so I've made a lot of progress okay give me credit for that yeah um but the some of the discussion around say 35 uh 50 there isn't even a city road there I mean so look for some input and discussion around that here not technically legislative but important policy change that could have positive ramifications for CIP budget would Comm D anything you want to add you know I was thinking we have two Greenways mot and North Creek would it's on your order in our funding and we probably have three other uh road projects relatively small compared to what you have here so uh if we receive funding clearly we hope it's this one oh for that Bond okay I'd say other than that lot of Health and Human Service request but um that pretty much false on the county and isn't down to you but it would impact especially on the police side we're looking at the mental health issue both on the youth side and the adult and the fat old stuff and then opportunities for opioid and housing collaboration if you want in that facility yeah we're all sitting on pots of money that we don't really know what we're doing it yet so yeah okay anything you wanted to add from I think been pretty well covered okay we're trying to figure out how to coordinate with all this new money that other people haveing and what not try to work well with others instead of Reinventing the wheel any other comments from councelor Alison did you want a federal update oh um I didn't prepare anything I haven't really touched base but I know that um I'm going to be playing a big part in just like serving as a congressional liaison when it comes to bonding so um I was going to call for a meeting with the mayor and kind of just talk about you know the priorities so hearing all of this is really helpful to being able to steer in a certain direction for you guys anything that we can do to help just let us know great thanks yep just one other Alibi as your I know you've already given some of feedback to us and maybe some of it goes through the league or other associations you belong to but any of the laws that you've identified would either need tweaks or lack Clarity first one that comes to mind is obviously the legalization of marijuana what that means for you what the permitting process looks like like I don't uh I'll just say it very plainly I don't I don't want to hear from people that represent this group or that group like I I need to hear directly from you all who are the governing body that has to implement it deal with it and have to deal with the impacts and have the police chief that has to deal with enforcing it figuring things out what what what changes or tweaks need to be made to it or would it be I'm not asking right now to answer that question do have for oh you do good um other so other than wiping out Municipal liquid licenses what else just well the first thing I'd say about cannabis is I mean we're at this certain spot we're at I think my nervousness would be we've spent a lot of Staff time a lot of council time implementing what's there and I'd hate for them to go back already next session or even next year the year after to start changing regulatory stuff again and we have to go back and so I get nervous when the authors are like well you know we've been tweaking liquor loss for a hundred years or whatever it's a burden on cities from a staff perspective for sure um to do implementation and make changes and those type of things um and you know the same goes for paid sick leave earn saving six I mean that's impacts stuff since it has a huge price tag um for taxpayers on the on the city side and and the county and you know even more as the school district I mean you start talking about their contract that they're trying to figure out this is a year ahead of next year when they're going to have to figure out how to pay for their for that and so I think yeah I don't know those are some I don't know what the answer is well the other thing I think that we that we need to be discussing County City us and the legislature is looking at how what what is it that we can do that's not going to tie our hands behind our back so to speak in the services you have to provide but what can we do from a property tax relief standpoint uh and I'm going to need smarter minds and Minds that represent the city and represent the county and other places to figure out what's actually realistic and what some things we can do because uh thankfully we are in a community in which that's been handled very well um but it keeps going up and we hear from all over the state that's one of those things that's really hammering people talk about our seniors and you not fixed income they made projections years ago and the great state of Minnesota just blew those projections out of the water uh and also didn't deliver them the the tax free social security that was promised that's that's most I'll be on my soap box I promise um so and I promise I didn't look at the agenda the only other thing I want to let you guys know that I'll be looking at as a priority is helping out our firefighters and their pensions so I'm just throwing that out there too talk oh good that's what I sat next year yeah um well good I appreciate uh the conversation and the relationships we've been able to build and kind of all move in the same direction on behalf of our city so I'm grateful for those Partnerships and and um wish you all the luck in session I just I just want to add one thing all this H sales tax money that came from the 34 cents a bunch of that's going directly to tab because they didn't want to give it to the Met Council and so I'm serving on a working group to try and identify those funds should be distributed because again um they're very heavily already directed towards bike pedestrian Transit very little roads and we're also redoing our solicitation process for the federal funds for starting in 26 and there's an interrelatedness to that and just to give you some idea the how off-balance the funding streams are in our presentation from met Council they raised this local Metro tax three times higher than what the governor had requested and then when mindat got up and talked about their legislative session barely a third of their unmet needs were met in the funding so there's there's going to be a Contin tension of PE for the communities that need Road money um it's going to be limited and hard to get so I'll be at the table fighting for and anything uh with the dam patch study Light Rail make sure that the cost per rider for orange line is part of whatever report comes up I continue to drive down 35 and there's nobody in a single Orange Line John's gonna cover up yeah I'm not on Transportation anymore but probably we'll get back here yeah well good uh you guys are welcome to stay for our next agenda thanks for coming appreciate it in the past years you've had a legislative priorities flyer or I can email it to you I've got it okay we have it it's it's relatively same as last year except for there's a few CH one one other question um with the uh new design the state symbol emblem in the flag what's your cost going to be um I mean going to be helpful when it comes just kind of overview because there's a lot of different things and I don't think there's any I think there's going to be an unfunded mandate back to you guys so it'll be nice to know with some of this money if if you guys have some numbers that would be help yeah I mean police badges else fire I'm assuming um but any any buildings or stuff like that fors yeah the only I can think of is our Poli badge I don't think we that's good thank you um so our next item is the regional Public Safety Training Facility andan alonna okay so I'll ask Todd LOL and uh ban on call to step up to the table there with Leo a daily if council members uh late last year we hired Leo to do architectural plans and specifications to start designing the regional Public Safety Training Facility um we're kind of at the end of that first phase of Design Concepts we've kind of gone through five or six different design meetings we've had an open house we' invited in um other jurisdictions to come and take a look at the design and kind of give their input on possible usage and partners and membership and all that kind of stuff so we thought this was a good uh point to stop and kind of just give the presentation to city council and see where you guys are at on the project and kind of give us some feedback on the overall design concept and U proposed budget so with that I'll sorry daily too many Architects one time fighting words sorry thank you alen um again on top of all Leo daily lead a lot of our public work and specifically Public Safety work and Megan Mcall is our architect on project um we really uh did want to get in front of you early uh rather than later uh when we first started on this project uh we did we we were a little concerned about the cost um the bud before and so that's why we kind of ranged this project getting in front of you early uh as Alan had mentioned we spent six or seven meetings uh looking at uh starting point for this project it's a PDF so you just click the mouse you know what I'm thank you um like alen had mentioned we we've met several times to kind of take starting point for this project and and understand and break it down a little bit more that we had some concerns about the layout of the predesign project and and again that cost the part of it uh we also have been looking at a pro fora uh for this project as well and we're in the middle of that process right now we've had a meeting with the kind of a round table with a bunch of uh the agencies in the area that could potentially be using this uh we did a surve survey U and Megan will be talking about that so we're not quite got the mold of that yet but we're in in the process and now we're at the council workshop and again we wanted to get in front of you now rather than later on if anything um were to change it's a lot easier to change now later so thought this was do um just a little background for you all if you haven't been following this project um you know this area of the uh metropolitan area is is lacking in uh immediate needs for this type of facility uh one of the biggest things with these types of projects is just being within a close proximity to training facilities and not having to take your officers off the streets or paying for overtime to travel to different areas um so as you can kind of see through the distribution of some the facilities that are similar to this there kind of a hole here and again just kind of highlighting again some of the local neighbors that uh could be a part of this Pro process and project as well so the sites is the old Public Works facility site uh there was a study at one point to look at whether or not to uh utilize the existing building and that had been scrapped um as not feasible and not something that would be um know best use of money so we're looking at demoing that Pro building on the property and starting from from a new uh so I want to talk just a little bit about these types of facilities and give you some imagery of what we were talking about over the last couple months um first thing I want to say is we feel that these projects are you know a significant project they're dignified project projects um we're trying to take uh training for Public Safety people out of the uh make do um realm and into um buildings that have some substance and and not same Taj Halls here but they are of a a kind that deserves to have a building their some of the sampling of work that we've done and talked about as examples of of the types of facilities North Metro range uh up in North uh um Maple Grove the hero Center in Cottage Grove and a project done in North Carolina that we worked on those were kind of three that we looked at a lot as comparisons and contrasting what's good what's not good so I want to first talk about the range itself um there was a lot of discussion about the range as it I'm trying to understand what type of range you want all ranges aren't the same uh the lengths the width the type of training you're doing the amount of equipment that goes into each range it's a little different based on the type of training you're using and the other thing we talk about is does one big range make sense or is two ranges that are uh one a little bit larger and a smaller one makes sense um a uh we looked at that for reasons of accessibility if one range is full it's full it's being used you can't use it nobody else can use it you can't rent it out so the concept of having two ranges um in about the same square footage uh came to light so that you could have accessibility more often and really what it comes down to a lot of times with these facilities that you want to have the training when you need to have the training and there's Peaks within the year where the training is pretty uh evident and we'll talk about that later but um the idea of having two two ranges was uh something that uh from a a usability standpoint the accessibility was made sense and from a uh cost recovery and having some revenues come in and be easier to to capture some revenues made some sense we'll talk about the size of that range in a little bit um some of the spaces that are range require it's not just the range um they to have spaces for cleaning your weapons storing your ammo um fixing your weapons things like that there are some anary spaces within these buildings that need to uh be provided and we would talk through that as we were going through the process uh reality Based training I think that's really at the heart of what um the whole concept to this building is whether it's whether it's in the range itself or uh within the the components of this building we' had a lot of discussions and we'll continue to have discussions as we move forward about how can we design this building so that it could replicate real world situations um to put officers and firefighters at situations that uh uh not only are more realistic but also able to work together in some instances where you can't do that now and so these are some of the imageries of things that we were looking at to make sure we could accommodate a fire truck inside a facility or understand what it means for a firefighter to occupy this building and and use it in the same way but different that a police officer would and there are some subtle differences there some more imagery of uh you know trying to understand how EMS can even be a part of this um how we can create indoor environments uh such as this uh to replicate streets Street Scapes and do that inside so you're not out there in dir below weather like it was the last couple weeks you can do that you know during the winter months and then I think the other important aspect of this was also trying to understand how the building itself can be used as a prop from the outside how do you approach the building how how are those scenarios created uh to use the building that self as the prop but also um to make sure that when they're having training scenars outside they don't want to be watched they don't want to have to have people peeking in on them so we want to screen the buildings in such a way that allows them to freely do their work without neighbors either complaining or peeking in a couple other uh types of rooms that we talked about were a dedicated Max room where where um sponsor resistance training can happen deescalation training can happen and happen in a safe environment where you're limiting the amount of uh chances for uh injury during training which happens a lot more often than you know we'd like so making sure it's not just throwing mats down on the ground that it's something beyond that and then the use of Technology was another piece that we have been continually talking about it's changing there's some great stuff out there right now these are uh you know three-sided or five-sided virtual reality screens uh but there's also goggles that are coming on the market that are you know going to be probably the way to go in the future and these types of uh pieces of equipment are great for um practicing um scenarios and um just being a tool that can offer a lot of different options for a police officer Beyond you know uh training um and a kind of a an acting way um these take up a little bit more room than what's kind of coming down the pipe in the future so we're still having those discussions about what that might be then of course classroom there's always a need for classroom space and I think one thing that we've talked about was to make sure that classroom space is flexible uh there's a need at times to have a 100 people in a classroom uh so you can bring in a a regional or a national speaker and have host your own uh instruction classes and bring in people from the area uh so you're getting the latest and greatest across the country but most of the time there's a need to have 20 people sometimes break that into smaller groups yet and want to make sure that that classroom is as flexible as possible for doing roll poam or just playing old lectures so we wanted to talk briefly from a high level what this specific facility would entail this is a high level program and as Todd mentioned earlier we're still very early in the process so nothing is completely set in stone so this facility uh would Encompass two firing ranges as Todd alluded to we have a 50 yard range with 13 lanes and that's coming in at a little over 11,000 square ft and then we have a smaller range 25 yard range uh six Lanes wide and that's uh a little over 3500 square feet and then as Todd mentioned we have ansary spaces associated with those fire and ranges the gun gun cleaning uh the armor the ammo storage um we have some uh storage spaces as well so next we'll go into uh more of the common spaces the more administrative spaces uh the classroom that can Flex from 45 to 100 people with the use of an operable partition uh that room is a little over 2,300 square feet we have break space for approximately 35 people uh main lobby with an office and a front desk and then a 12 person conference room and then moving into that reality Based training that that Todd was talking about earlier with the VR uh we have space for a mat's room VR room and then a large flexible training uh tactical space the reality Based training and that room would have the movable walls that you saw uh a couple slides um past so it just adds an opportunity for flexible uh training space in that enclosed environment that Todd talk about and then that space that that reality Based training space would have a second level that would be open that would also have some mechanical space in that room as well and that's one of the things I think that was was important about this was uh having a second floor a second level adds into the training U just reality of things there's always second floors in any buildings most buildings so uh that was kind of a missing component in the last go around so we wanted to make sure and understand how we can start to introduce stairs and how to navigate those and what that means for even EMS or fire that yeah so right now that main training building is coming in at 6,339 Square ft that doesn't include a warehouse or a cool storage facility which would be about 5,000 sare ft uh however that warehouse was included in the cost Testament that's good D question so um to have the second floor do you ever need a third floor or higher or is the second floor a satisfactory I guess I'm just wondering if one more floor is better obviously would be better um we're trying to be costc conscious and and that um but uh you know there's a lot of threeory apartment buildings around four story five over ones things like that that uh you know couldn't quite be replicated here in that in that condition but we love to do that we're just cognite of the the dollars for that um so every story would add could tell you that off the top of my tongue right now but uh it it uh you know I don't think it needs a whole you can a part of the building exactly you can get by with a very small portion of the building and probably still give you the scenarios that you're looking for so all right so we'll move into the tour plan so you can see what all these numbers really look like um spatially we're going to start at this uh Center core this is that admin kind of common space area so you would enter into this main lobby and we had a break room and a classroom your front desk the conference and then the toilet toilets and restaurants and then moving to the west to the left we have our firing ranges we have the uh the large firing range that would primarily be for law enforcement use and then the smaller firing range that we talked about earlier could also be used for public space uh for Public Access as well and then all of the associated uses that come along with the firing range the storage the control rooms uh the gun cleaning the armor we have a loading area here to the South uh where law enforcement could potentially SM car in or you could offload some of the ammo into this ammo storage facility and then on the right side of that four classro common space area we have the reality Based training and your Tactical training spaces so your VR room your mat's room with a shared storage space in between your Tactical spaces with the movable Wall Systems storage room and then the possibility of pulling a car in if needed and then as Todd mentioned we're looking for ways to make this building as flexible and multifaceted from a training perspective as possible so looking at ways that they could use this Corridor in the classrooms to sim assimilate perhaps an active shooter situation using those stairs to simulate um kind of a second floor uh kind of scenario we also have you'll see over here on the second floor level uh Incorporated balconies and uh doors so that if uh you were doing a fire training uh scenario where you had to rescue from a second level uh you could you could use that here at the building instead of going elsewhere and then on the the far end of the building or far end of the site we have our warehouse space and we're seeing this this area in between these these two buildings as that uh Alleyway that Todd showed earlier where you could uh simulate a traffic stop or or some kind of a scenario like that but you're you're kind of protected from the public view uh and it's a more private space to do that training so constantly looking for ways for the building can become a multifaceted tool um a flexible tool for your train as well okay now dumb question please I'm sorry is there ever a reason to have Public Access separate from the access for um First Responders law enforcement Etc uh different is would there be any reason to is any of this kind of like we want to keep it under the radar type of scenario so if the public were to be able to use shooting range or maybe the mats is there a separate entrance that they would have and not have access to the rest of the building typically we've been thinking about this facility as definitely public accessible but not at the same time as law enforcement meaning on a Saturday open to the public for shooting open to the public for classrooms maybe at night uh that's one of the things that we wanted to make sure about in the plan here was to make sure that the classroom was the first thing it was accessible from the front door that there's a primary point of access to to monitor who's coming and going here um so we didn't think about it as this is the public entrance and this is the law enforcement entrance but rather more about how the building gets used over time um certainly there wouldn't be a situation where the firing range as public people and and police officers at the same time they would be at different times throughout the course of a year we would card building similar to City Hall where it would be completely secure and only those that were allowed to go into certain areas would have access with a prox card um in addition this U this includes State funding as you know and part of that requirement is we have to provide certain number of hours to public access to facility Well I mean I guess I was thinking even in the Math's room it would be some place to do self-defense training even if our even if our law for was teaching it to the public um you know that type of thing but I just didn't know if so with the card system that I worked um to be able to limit the accessibility of certain areas yeah it doesn't help on a safety in my mind a safety issue if people understand fully training that they could then figure out how to avoid certain situations based on the training that our people have does that make sense they won't be in there during the trainings they're just gonna see a room they're not going to see what happens okay I'm sure I'm just overthinking it no it's it's a great question because that's something what we're always thinking about is how does the public because the public will use this building and we have to think about that but it it it mostly comes down to scheduling you know not at the same time but uh um I think that's one of the things we we wanted to make sure that you didn't have to walk through a training environment to get to the classroom because the classroom is probably the thing that most of the people would be coming there for on a Saturday whether that or the range so what's the business case for the two ranges um you mentioned something about you know being able to do more training and I think there's how does it pay for I mean it's a lot I mean if you if you look at percentage of the space takes up a lot obviously so I'm like What's the is there an ability really to have two ranges financially you know it's uh the original plan had one large range that was about the size of the two ranges take a couple thousand square feet okay okay um but two ranges is definitely more expensive got two systems you got to deal with um I I think that the thing that we hear a lot of times even in facilities that are pretty new like we can't get in we can't get in we want to be there but we can't get in um so that's that's the one thing about having the two ranges is if if the chief here has three officers that need to have some some training they can go into the small range and free up that bigger range for a whole uh agency to come in and rent it is the the theory behind part of this another part of aspect of this that we've been thinking about a lot is police agencies generally don't like to have the overhead retrievers they don't need those the the the targeting systems that go down range and come back that's more of public shoot kind of environment with the shooting stalls that's just something that they don't need because they go to the Target and they want to be able to move lad so what we're doing in this facility is using the smaller range for that type of shooting that would be more uh stall and retriever type of of shooting again so that it frees them up the bigger range to have more flexibility and you're not paying for you know X more stalls so I have the same question about the second floor the opposite well do we do we really need to have two classrooms it's is there is there a business case to having a second floor the second floor up here yeah um or we're just doing it because if we're already building we might as well like I'm trying to look we we have this much money and it costs this much money and I'm trying to figure out like where are these little tweaks that we can make to get what we one the thing we always kind of think about is each of these spaces are and if you can separate them enough to have an agency upstairs and an agency downstairs now you've got more rent more rental income if you will still cost you a lot of money to build it but um that's one of the pieces that we we thinking about as well so we want to make sure that an agency can access that training without disrupting another agency so there are I guess I look at it as another second sheet of ice so just look at it that way from a business point of view a second sheet of ice yeah and then utilize it what I'm not seeing very clearly is how the fire trainings p is integrated into this because I mean when it comes to a second level it's a necessity especially with ladder training and stairwells and whatnot um we just did a space study with some ideal conditions for training when we see this again I'd like to have a better understanding of how that's integrated into this space and you know maybe a tower is a third Tower stairwell that reaches three stories or four stories as needed so that it's ideal for the fire piece of this because it seems a majority uh police department focused and I and that maybe I'm just missing the fire piece but well I think that's a good observation that's something we've been uh having discussions about and trying to understand can the can both agencies use like the the movable Wall Systems that we've been talking about uh police officers can use them they're great they can shoot them with their um you know simulated ammunition firefighters can drag a hose that's dry through there and do some search and rescue things and some EMS type of training very well but they can't turn a hose on and they know damaging the wall panels so we're we're trying to find the flexibility between what works for for both and I think we're just having those beginning conversations right now but to me as we're talking about cost because I appreciate you being cost conscious but we're looking at at the moment training facilities in potentially multiple fire stations and so if that can be here there's there could be cost savings cost savings are in the other buildings well so that's my next question for staff and that is have we appraised this land at any point in the last couple years because I look at the map and we own if you Cobble together there's probably a saleable piece for something commercial can we then co-locate this at fire station 5 and have a little more Synergy on the fire and police training does that make sense I mean if if this fire station 5 we don't know what the parcel is or how big it is if we have bigger demand is there some cost savings on selling this and doing projects together we can tell us that tonight though because we're spending money here yeah and we've asked this before and you directed us to still go down this route but yeah but that was last week when we finally said okay we're gonna spend $36 million ISS the issue fire station five is not necessarily going to be high no but if they're doing if it's designed the way that they're talking about with the exterior stuff for the outside nobody looking in I mean I'm less concerned about that yeah so from the very beginning we've informed Lea daily that of this other stuff that we have going on with fire station so they've always had that on their radar how do we incorporate as much as we can of fire safety training into this building not really knowing yet what station five is going to look like station five whatever that number is station X I guess I'm calling it five just because yeah yeah it's two you know so part of that is we went it a little bit different we went it as um what can we do here as much as possible short of using water on the site for fire safety training because we feel that and you know Mike has been in those the fire chief has been in those these meetings as well um he's leaning more towards having those water training items in the the new fire station which makes some sense because that's where they would do most of that that's where their equipment is at that's where their hoses are but then at the end of the day are they ever really going to travel to another site when they could just do their now at this site what we haven't mentioned is that second floor would be their helping with their with the training name but where they where they dark out their mask they do all their dark dark out training in there they they can do smoke in there um they just can't do wet stuff so that's kind of when the trade-off is we can do a lot of the stuff that fire can do here long as it's not wet that wet stuff can be at of fire station five also remember a couple other things we do have able which is a live burn facility that we already have um and then also remember this is no cast dispersions for either Department here this is kind of a wish list yeah I get that as is the fire department study that we had those were all wish list items right it doesn't mean that those are all absolutely 100% necessary so as we go through designing fire stations just as we're going through designing this we're probably not going to have everything that was identified in either of those studies it's not going to it's not gonna be prac so we did we did do an appraisal on this wasn't appraisal it was a market study that Appo did for us um can you remember what it came out to the building was I'd have to look it up but it was less than guess my thought processes is that you kind of want this Regional facility be as state-ofthe-art as possible be able to attract as many members Partners Etc as possible and the amenities that come with this facility is what the attraction will be and the price thereof of what you're going to charge yeah I get that I'm just wondering if there's efficiencies if we're going to be building two buildings in the public safety room how can we right and the efficiencies I was thinking about is what can we eliminate on the fire station side the classrooms would be one I would think of that could just be here at this facility um which would give us more you know space for whatever at a fire station but um um I guess okay for somebody that is usually very costc conscious about a lot of things the last thing I want to do is create a scenario where we make something and we were cost conscious about it but it's not going to attract enough uh business and so we have to think of it as a more of a business plan um as to what we're doing with this facility then we would with a fire station for site that makes sense I don't know yeah know I I get it I'm just I'm just thinking I know that we're like wetted to the site but I think it's got some Val I'm just I want to know can we is there an infrastructure cost savings by you when we're talking about road development like all these if we're going into a blank slate with new fire station can is there a way to still have all these many but we can cut some costs on infrastructure or whatever there is we would probably have to pause this process here because then we're talking about looking at land right more land than what we were thinking about for the fire station um and reevaluating what we do but the other thing is we only have a third of it funded right now like how you know how much really you know if we pause till May to if we get some more State funding is that going to derail everything I guess if if you look at the locations of the facilities that they had highlighted earlier in their presentation they're all within industrial areas non-residential noncommercial that's a challenge I get and that that I mean if you were going to pick a site with a trainings facility like this it would be the industrial park somewhere I think think one would probably agree with that I think kind of talk we talked about that quite a bit so so put in a cedar and that's pretty high to buck land for a I don't know that our community wants firing range there either um I think for me I was just thinking it's purely on the train fire training side there's any way to remove that from the potential fire stations and combine it here because it's like we have half of it yeah can you can you look back to the site plan yeah and I think now that we've got some good direction from Council at The Last Retreat um we could go I think now that we have a Direction with the fire station stuff that's going to help us narrow in on that design and what all that means and what we can do here as a kind of a tradeoff to kind of make a balance of what makes sense here and what makes sense at a new fire station because we we own a lot of the parcels around there too that where his hand is we own that plus the other side of that other building we own that we do um but that looks like there's water but there is but on that other side that does not look like water well that's that's the that's um uh the Creek South Creek North Creek North Creek that's a creep and it's well there's yeah there's like two Parcels there's one that's an acre and a half and then it looks like is that's a whole watered district for that Creek and that's another that's kind of one of the other reasons that our environmental resources been like don't have them do foam and chemical stuff here because right it's right at the creek Y and we won't be able to do anything with it so and then the parcels you pointed to are already storm water basins or they're within the blood plane or buffer area of the creek okay was going to point out here that you know that that second building that we haven't really talked about too much um was um potentially used for some storage for police or public works for fire um but beyond that is this side of the site and actually it's it's actually really a perfect spot for fire type of training and we talked about that in the future that could that be some areas where uh some some additional fire aspects are located or does that does that uh storage building become right now we were thinking of it as a blank slate for anybody to use it for any kind of training we originally wanted to have the wall that was facing the rest of the training facility U mimic a u strip mall front storefront so they could be used to enter into the facility from that kind of cour Center Courtyard that can also be used for fire uh especially for fire to be honest and think about that building as a fire um more fire heavy than than the rest of the main building too if that was a direction that was thought that that made sense to you know build here instead of there especially if it's in a far residential area I don't station station by would be [Music] but some we have been talk about yeah I think Megan will go on a little bit here when we get to the survey stuff but that we'll start to talk about a little bit about um our partners and where they came in on things and it's the balancing of you have one agency that really wants a pepper spray or chemical room but they're the only ones going to use it so it doesn't really pay off for us as that facility so some of that will come out more in performa in kind of the phase two of this project where we start digging into that more and figuring out exactly okay what does pay off on this facility where can we make money or break even on this to make it worthwhile so some that's kind of to be continued but we I so a question about what you got up there in terms of I have a couple questions but the first one is about the range how is the lead lead lead mitigated yeah good question um we' designed the building to have the uh it's a not a purge system by that I mean uh we recycle some of the air so these are very expensive facilities to run we want to recycle the the heated air uh and we've made accommodations of the mechanical room up on the left left hand side so that you're changing the lead uh filters inside the building um in that mechanical room so it's not uh you're to do that not the dead of winter and more convenient to do the changes and that takes special process that's confined to that room and then uh the bullet trap itself will have some containers out just outside it's a little tall uh unit that will collect all of the the the lead from there and that gets shipped away and a special procedure because that that's a very expensive hitting cost if it doesn't if it isn't done well it's very expensive H yeah the flip side is you can you can sell your brass that and and to trade off that that's kind of a uh hopefully we look for a break even on that selling the lead and the brass back to them as recycl helps to pay for the cost to get rid of the then the the second question is cost related I mean I it occurs to me I was born 30 years to because I would love to be able to use this but now I just get to help figure out how to pay for it um I so you have you have the cost to build it land and everything but do you have an estimate of the ongoing cost to operating we have a um well we did I think uh we have a ballpark right now we didn't really want to share that yes sir we weren't totally uh comfortable with our numbers yet and it's kind of Midstream here still um but it can vary between $300,000 to $900,000 you know that's kind of what we're seeing across the the region here with different facilities and that depends on mostly about staff how much staff you have really is the number one thing uh the second biggest cost is your utility cost uh but with higher usage your utility cost will go up but that means you're generating Reven so that they kind of offset each other a little bit it's really about how many people you have stacking fail yeah and then so that becomes a question of and I know we'll see it later in the presentation about people's commitment membership versus all that and how how you're able to fill the Thing Once once you have built and like that so yeah then mitigation the letter is probably my biggest question for that s we want to keep all that stuff on can we get to the references that you've already surveyed for you really we didn't really survey for other um Community fire departments for training did we or we we did uh we didn't get a lot of feedback H they were all invited but we only had two or three Department two agen so in my little mind I'm just thinking about it you know in the future when we're trying to build the business plan if we were to be going in the Direction Where We wanted a better uh more or not better I guess um more um fire at the same training facility would that then increase the members uh interests are those people thinking about I would like to see more members Partners but um but would that be something that would be enough of an asset to increase the interest for more of the surrounding communities potentially once we again once we dig into this more and look at more of what where fire lands station five or here we can definitely readdress that I know we're probably running pter time worry we need to know it's called y okay well uh obviously cost it's big factor um numbers have just been going up I mean everyone knows it um we're looking at about a $20 million 20.3 million base construction cost and that's for the base building um then about a 1.1 or 1.2 million dollar for that basic Warehouse building nonheated uh or non-conditioned space I should say um typical preast construction type so with a total of about 21.4 21.5 million all in uh Construction Construction costs escalated to believe it was 2025 so G tell me if we wait longer in 25 we save a million dollars is that what that number means uh no that this 5% was escalating from the from right now until the midpoint of 2025 oh oh so like I got it that yes we took we took the numbers 20 $22 got and and it added an escalation factor and that's you know hopefully that's the right number but so that's the construction cost we obviously have project costs as well you take the construction cost one here uh all these numbers here you can't read um add up to the soft costs the the stuff that that doesn't stick to the uh building essentially uh fees uh Furniture equipment that wouldn't be part of the construction cost um adding that up um is another 2.7 million approximately uh so given a total project cost of 24.2 million uh then if you subtract that out from the state of Minnesota contribution of 7.1 million the total Capital cost would be $17 million and I just wanted to point out the contingencies again that are included in here uh the escalation almost a million dollars uh design and construction um 5% each design continency at this point because we're super early another 5% during the construction so we want to maintain that um and then this the soft cost is about 15 we have a 15% continuous in the soft cost because we're still a little bit early about 362,000 just to protect any missing items that weren't accommodated in this already but can you I lost track does that 21,4 180,000 include a second story or is that without a that is a second story that's the proposed site plan that you saw okay so if we go to the next slide here we've been talking about we know that that's a big number to swallow and there's some uh options that we've been kind of kicking around right now and these are uh kind of rough estimates for what those kind of value engineering options could be right now at this time and the three that seemed off the top that were possible um without a lot of pain uh and still getting a lot of bang for your box was changing that that that building that's next to the main building the warehouse building from a pre-cast building to a metal building a little less durable a little less able to take some water things like that an easy $350,000 savings but something that's easily done um taking that 50 yard range that is pretty wide right now at I believe it's at 60 ft and take it six feet out of it changes the dynamic of the HVAC that happens that part of the range and between that and the savings of the square footage uh is a pretty decent chunk of money savings there and still offering a wide enough range for the the officers to do the kind of training that they want to do and then the two levels uh taking a slice out of that building uh about 1, 1600 square fet each on the right hand side of the building that you were looking at um just as a square foot Lop off if you will still offers enough options for for different Titans of reality Based training almost a million dollars there um some options that we talked about that maybe weren't as palatable was eliminating that warehouse building all together um at the preast cost of a million one and then eliminating the smaller range at 3 million is for that as well again the concern there was accessibility for folks we to talk a little bit about the impact on operations if you do eliminate the warehouse or if you go to Just One range what's the can can we use you know utility funds to to pay for some of that because we're gonna put Public Works storage in there or are we not like what what yeah I mean it's also considered to be when if and when we do the cmf expansion that we would have space to put what's being in that warehouse there um this was kind of a if if we don't do that yeah um I'll that Chief talk about the range unpack yeah that so the range that smaller range is obviously narrower and it's got the retriever systems built in so that the idea with doing the two ranges is to do kind of congruent training with two different groups so if an agency's in the Big Range as law enforcement you could get three or four officers to come in and do a qualification shoot that smaller range is really designed for stationary shooting qualifications kind of the textbook things that we have to do to qualify so you you eliminate some of that if the big range is there's only one range that big range is in use none of that other training could go on at that same time so that's the impact from an operation standpoint say it seems like because every officer in the region has to go through qualifications every year right I mean seems like it' be very high demand that would really impact the ability to actually utilize the bigger space because I'd imagine that the qualification stuff is a higher priority it is because you have to do it every year the other step is more discretionary yeah how often do you think officers shoot on their own off duty I'm just going to go practice does that happen or is that it does happen it really varies by Officer I mean it really does I some it's a real Hobby and they spend the time and money to rent space and pay for ammunition go do it some probably don't shoot at all outside of Department shoots but that smaller range something some the other thing is if uh if you want to use the big range and you only have two three officers you're firing up the bigger IAL unit it's costing a little bit more money per shooter if you will does that offset the capital cost they're kind of two different conversations but that's part of the theory too is if you only have two Shooters you go to the small range what's the what do you think is the demand long term for the reality Based training that 1600 ft I think that's high that's that's one thing that's just not out range is hard there's ranges around you can find them you got to drive to them and be able to book them the reality based space is just there's not a lot out there and when we got our meeting that was one of the one of the highlights from agencies just saying yeah that's something that we just we don't have access to a lot of places are using abandoned buildings homes that are going to be torn down you're just at Liberty of finding those spaces when you need them so and that could be I mean that's a value add to be enticed into other departments and agencies I think that anecdotally that's probably the second most priced thing in the building behind the range and we're not asking obviously for any decisions we're just trying to we're just showing you the exercises that we're going through to try to sharpen the pencil on how does this stack up then all those other ones that you showed us on the on the first slide around the metro area would this be kind of the state-of-the-art mod that or yeah I mean I think it has a lot of the same components in it I think that you know as we more of these we get better at them so uh and learn more so I would say yeah that's size-wise I'd say it's a little bit of a smaller site but not by a lot but I think um this site re relied needed a a very compact linear building which actually is very efficient so I think uh that has its advantages with the advantage of this quality is there I'm not saying here done the quality they have a lot of quantity too so this side is very tight very efficient very quality stuff that we're trying to back in here yeah okay and just wanted to go over this um this is how we've been kind of thinking about this and and talking to different agencies about how how potential Partnerships are me ships might uh occur should somebody be interested obviously Lakeville owner um and then if there's a partner that wanted to come to the plate uh with either Capital costs that'd be awesome um or uh have the second priority and and and really every agency wants priority in their scheduling that's kind of the big thing um so ownership gets the first priority in scheduling a partner second a member third a user kind of gets the remaining hours is kind of the theory here um and that also kind of a sliding scale of what the cost might be and these are all things that will get shaken out as time goes on um but again I think the key here is just owner a jpa would be a partner or a membership either annual or Medi T leas if you will and then fee for service kind a gist of what we're going here any questions on that all right so as Todd mentioned last month we had a round table meeting we had uh 17 agencies uh not including Lille at that Round Table meeting we presented this concept and some of the features at the facility after that meeting we sent out a Survey Monkey survey to all those agencies and they all responded we got 17 responses back which is great uh and we just wanted to gauge their level of interest in being a part of this facility and using some of the components within the facility so we started out our survey uh by asking what level of involvement they would be interested in in regards to uh either using oring a partner in this facility we did have one agency uh not including Lal indicate that they wanted to be a partner uh we had six say they wanted to be a member and then we were evenly split between unsure or just a user uh and it should be noted that all this information uh all these survey results are fairly preliminary because we're we're at the beginning stages of the project so don't take this to heart this is just where we're at in this early and agencies are a little shy about Shing that with folks so Northfield indicated they were interested in being a partner which is great uh farbo birdsville PD Rice County Sheriff Savage PD Apple Valley PD and Farmington you wanted to be a member and then you see the other agencies equally split um some of those included fire uh we had a DNR agency they were unur so that's kind of where we shook out in terms of the level of membership for involvement next we'll jump into the components of the facility uh themselves so we started with the firing rate we asked lville to participate in this and uh Jason gave us responses on that so that's great so uh the level of use of the firing range we chunk this into 4our sessions per year uh leville came in at 1264 hours sessions per year uh and then you the numbers are higher numbers you see here uh Savage 20 uh forour sessions per year so we saw a lot of interest in in the buing range itself in ter terms of usage and then we wanted to gauge how big these groups would be so we asked how many average officers would you have at each of these sessions and it it was a fairly wide range anywhere from six all the way up to Burnsville it's pretty large agency they were at 25 officers per sent I think this is kind of we asked this question to understand how wide the range how many lanes uh would be optimal um how many times people are going have to go multiple groups through to get their their agencies through next we we asked about the classrooms we started with the 45 person classroom uh Lakeville came in at 300 times a year so a lot of use from the city uh and that's just the PD itself so um and other agencies it seem to be between one and four times was was the the general cons cons consent on that next we move to the person classroom so this uh we got a lot of agencies saying they would never see themselves using it um Lake bille said they would use it five times and you had three agencies say they would use a once now we asked another question you'll slide then go to the next slide uh we asked another question about a Regional training event and we felt like this kind of contradicted that 100% classroom response because over half of the agency say they would consider hosting a Regional training event at this facility so kind of mixed uh mixed messages there between those two questions it's the VR simulator that we we just spoke about um anywhere from twice to four times uh it should be noted that two of the fire agencies that actually did respond um said they would never give it so that that's kind of how that never shook out um and then the city of blakeville uh anticipated using it 56 here if we own it we're using it you said come to be I mean 300 times a year training blogs not days hour so it's a little Mis every day except for Holiday yeah got P ma training um anywhere from two times to 20 times were the responses we got um we had some discussions about whether um agencies were saying they wouldn't use this because they already had it in their um facilities um and then Lakeville we get a lot of use saes to three times and then the finally the scenario Village seemed pretty popular uh any anywhere from uh two to 20 times with uh the other agency so we got we got a lot of good um response and interest in this scenario Village next we wanted to gauge uh times of both uh year and day agencies would want this uh overwhelming majority said they want it Monday through Friday during the days some indicated they would like it uh at night and only two said they would be interested in using it on the weekends I know in the round table meeting itself uh there was an agency that said they like to have their officers train uh during a ship so um having you know flexibility was important and this is about how we anticipated this would shake out uh highest usage in the spring and the fall with less us usage during the summer and that's a lot to do with PTO Jeep if you want to chime in on this a little bit more too but I think this goes to the multi range concept to it's like there's peaks in the year that it gets more usage yeah yeah I think you early on they're trying to get all the mandatory stuff in there's a little dip in the summer with fications and then uh once schools back in session we see I know internally we see a spike in our training so it's pretty consistent so uh the schedule for this project if things were to move forward is anticipating starting you know right soon after this getting geared up for the design phase that going through through the fall of this year and then anticipating having bidding happening over the winter and into the spring did early early February is for the bidding phase so we could get in the ground running right away in the fall get our shop drawings long LS things like that next page isue getting those La lead items and things like that going potentially even having some different packages issued earlier potentially um and then having construction start next spring about a year of construction to April 26 and a couple months of close out um project being know a B3 state of Minnesota project requirements as some building flush out times usually that's a couple months so would anticipate if things were follow this pace that facility could be open for agencies uh around July of 2026 so during the conversation with the agencies about membership and all that don't need to know any numbers but was there a discussion about what potential not too much yeah just because without only the total facility cost it's hard to narrow that down but I mean that's really where everybody's Landing is how much is it going to cost me what am I going to get out of that that's kind of the point we're at as far as looking at members or partners and how that all shakes out and I I think one of the things that we saw in the feedback from the survey was I think agencies were pretty free to say yeah we think we' use it x times but there may be funding mechanisms or or agreements that say you know for a little bit more you can use it a lot more um and and I think everyone kind of approached it as I'm just going to be a user of the facility not thinking about what it means to be a member and so I think there that's where other conversations still need a but I think our instructions to them were think about other facilities around the metro area and what the going rate is for using those facilities and it's going to be competitive to that so we we need to come up with a better name the Lakeville Public Safety re Lakeville Regional Public Safety Training Facility is too much of a bful and it doesn't seem like 17 agencies want to participate so politically the hero yeah naming rights yeah yeah and yeah the high SE training facility or whatever it is but um you know whatever sounds politically better about how 17 agencies are going to participate um whomever can come up with something would be great maybe we'll give you p52 gift card if you come up with what about uh inner city agencies like SWAT I me would they use a facility like this and how would that play into I think some uh and I think you know most of us are members of those inner city things and so it's hard to really Define you're probably billing that out right because we're paying SWAT dues to be part of that team so we're not going to turn around and charge them rent but I think they'd be users of the facility I just don't know that' be a revenue generator certain seems like clearly this also the Field of Dreams aspect where other agencies are going to participate once the doors are open and they can see I mean it seems pretty obvious based on the survey responses just kind of looking around at the geographic of it too it's I don't think you're stepping on any toes really right now by trying to open this facility meaning pulling from other facilities yeah I mean I will say the Edina project went back for bonding twice so it's not other R for us to ask more money from the state is there any way to gauge how much public use we could say that going to take place in there I mean because we haven't surveyed or anything but gun clubs um training for people that are gun and uh maybe even the school district with the trap shooting people I don't know but um or local districts I should say but is there any way to gauge the public uh interest to be able to entice the state to know that we really are serious about uh public use and how much it would get used by the public um I I I guess my best answer would be I think the more you advertise the more you uh are serious about it the more people you're going to get um I that's just not say any of that data to be able to get more money bonding wise or whatever guess I'm but so any um the more hard data that we have to go what we've heard from the legislators before is you know as many agreements we can have in place tell them that this is real helps right um when we went the last time we had lots of letters of interest and that got us I think to the first St I think having more it's going to be tough to have any but like a city council technically in a jpa but I think we get to that next level of maybe a better V tent or something like that that would help I will say we've T spoken with on the public use um at least at the hero Center they have said it's a real it's a real challenge um it's one thing to have police officers and others who are skilled and know what they're doing um they have a little bit more accidents they have some public not to say we should do it but I think we would try to probably limit as possible well I would think that especially like you're talking range you're G to have somebody from the police department there yeah it would be a staff member yeah there would definitely be a range safety officer that's kind of the off too is the more people you have come the more range officers you need to have there on staff every day so from a money-making standpoint I don't think you're gonna make a killing doing that so yeah just a real quick example we have the jpa from the north Metro site that's in Maple Grove um and Brooklyn Park and plmouth both did Apple contributions to that and the range of around looks to me like $600,000 or something um with that they get priority scheduling use at no cost so Maple Grove gets they own it they get first dips then it goes to those other cities so as we kind of think about structure my mind that's how I've been looking at it to where we go to People First and say how much do you want to pull me up to help get this in the ground that's going to get you priority level for 5 10 15 years whatever um and then that next level of investment if you want to call it is that membership that gets you more of like a month or a yearly fee and I think we threw around them like $30,000 or something like that um it's kind of what the chief has said they would kind of spend if we were to do this someplace else that's what he would probably justify you get 10 of those that's $300,000 that starts to get us on the low end of the operating side right um so and that doesn't include any additional one-offs from all the other agencies I'm not saying we're going to break even on this I'll never say that but I do think that if we can get one or two good partners and then some pledged members I think we'd be able to make good dent in and what was our original bonding asset last year 14 14 that's kind of what we were told now that was high high level we didn't get any any of the deta basic t for something right yeah so instead of 14 and that's matchine you just gave us cash per half so um what what kind of direction do you want from us I mean I'm I'm kind of at you know at a minimum I really need to to figure out why the warehouse for million dollars needs to be so I'm just like trying to tweak around the edges on how we can make it a little bit more bable I'd like to not impact train if we don't have to but there were a couple things on there look like we could do some savings a little bit so it seemed like there was like another million and a half bucks basically that we could shave off so we'll continue I mean we'll can if we kind of head nods tonight we'll continue to Rive the numbers with theway daily folks internal um I think the next thing will be for us as staff to sit down and strategize about how we start to approach our partners and with them with some firm request because right now it's just been hey do you want to be here U we need to start to put some numbers in front of them say this is what it's going to be how much can we count on you so I think we need to started doing that um and then you heard our legislators tonight we need to firm up what our ask is so yeah I mean I think we asked for 14 million addition yeah additional 14 get why don't you just ask for the 17 see how far because we got seven already almost 24 why wouldn't you just oh ask for the difference between the the whole Mee yeah before we tweak back well it was wasn't it it was 24 when you added yeah oh 24 okay so yes I was going 21 so I say know ask for the whole 17 so the other thing that I think of with cost too because yeah if we can find some places to shape I think law enforcement and fire agencies are going to be most interested in training capabilities not necessarily um books and I think if we have to if we can I not seem like the hard pieces of the design any we don't have to use Stone speci harvested from you know Highway 61 Bluffs it's kind of the beauty of this site is that it's an industrial area yeah uh we wanted to look nice as Architects and be proud of it and I think you know I think it's worthy of looking nice but definitely it's not something we're looking to uh spend on on that yeah closing as the zoning side of build yeah not like the $700 million C office building and stuff but the real my point is the real value is for sure that capability and a lot of these spaces are very you're not spending money on finishes like that so those are going to be the things that are gonna get people to sign on because they're going to go can I get this somewhere else or can I build it myself and once they realize they can't build it themselves are it's going to cost a lot of money it's like okay hey we can pay this much and be in and have some real good priority so what I'm hearing is start to Define our costs better to go out to our partners and work with our partners and figure out if there's some interest there we look at the warehouse building as maybe a future phase keep we keep it running with this project but maybe it's we have to that could be a future phase and then also to look at some other tweaks we can make kind of like we've done already and just kind of keep it running but always have those aspects of yeah I we what our real financial situation yeah at the end of the day if we need to reduce more and more we've got those options that are desate as reduction points that doesn't get me my three story four story Tower so we have that it's called able yeah okay y That's Right any okay keep plugging away well I appreciate the time tonight and I I I think it's to get in front of you ler than later for sure yeah absolutely appreciate it thank you guys so much um all right moving on to the Fire Relief Association pension update and amendments and I don't who's C from okay y good evening everyone I'm danam of the fire Rel Association and this with me I have a couple of my brothers and fellow board members secretary Schulz treasure Fisher um and we just want to start off by saying thank you for letting me participate in today's uh session and I don't want to make any assumptions about whether or not people have read the memo or how much time they've been able to spend with it yet but um as some of you might imagine uh the the planning and the process leading up to tonight's conversation and the memo that we put together was a lot different this year than years past um you know we felt like the stakes were a lot higher this year um emotions were a lot more intense and opinions on this were much more polarized so we we took a different approach um in preparing the memo this year and it's one that involved a lot more listening and lot more stakeholders and really um more empathy hly I not sure if you've heard the equp before about fire service but they say that we're 150 years of tradition unimpeded by progress and we know literally that that's not true but um you know there there is some truth in you know the skepticism that a lot of firefighters um exhibit which face the change m 1 and we saw a lot of that in our conversations with our constituents um leading up to memo this year and I guess we weren't you know all that surprised with the increasing demands that the job um entails and the uncertainty that the conversion or the transition to a hybrid Department with full-time fir Fighters starting here in March um in tals and you know Al just an entirely new way of of delivering Fire and Rescue Services to the city of Lakeville so um admittedly there was a lot of back and forth in this process um and you know we we we feel really good about where we landed you know we we wanted to present a financially viable plan um which we were successful in and one that also balanced and tried to harmonize the different points of view interest that our members have because somebody that's been with the department for 20 years is obviously looking at as slightly different than somebody that just joined Dre Fest field so um what would be most beneficial to the council should I cover this at a very high level and then can dive into details or are you versed enough in it to just start firing question I think other than Dan we've gone through this a little bit have you Dan were you here last year when okay so if you want to if you could just give a high level overview of what it means in the investing levels in the requests and then also from maybe you want to talk about how state has changed the adjusted the pension benefit levels like 12 was the old Max yep 15 is the new Max sure just for a way of background perfect yeah so really um with respect to the pension there are two levers that we can pull to make to influence the attracts of it for our members and those are the annual benefit level um which presently in Lakeville is $122,000 the state Max is 15,000 and then there's the vesting schedule um and I as long back as I I know or I'm familiar with it's been uh seven years as when you can start investing and 20 years to be fully vested in the um Fire Relief pension um and you know honestly that was the piece that was most controversial um amongst our membership and you know some of our initial plans were more aggressive with respect to the vesting schedule where we landed in our proposal was to just turn the um the front end of it so allow firefighters to start vesting at five years of service um and then continue to have full vesting um occur at 20 years of service and our proposal also does um ask for the benefit level to increase to that um State Maximum of $15,000 a year so the so it's the investing starts at 40% how do you know how much the like Steps up 4% a year is really how it shakes out okay 4% a year and um have you guys done any kind of proforma on what the impact the overall fund would be these changes do we have some we don't have specific dollar amounts but we did we our partner um Clifton Larson Allen put together some numbers for us around these changes okay and we're you know we're making some assumptions on fund performance but in the appendices um you'll see that um even assuming a a fairly modest uh year performance at 5% um these changes would not drop the pension fund below 105% funded so that was one of the things that we were really cognizant of is we did not want to present a plan that created an immediate liability for the um and even if we were to um assume you know an even more modest uh or quite dismal like 2% fund performance uh there wouldn't be a liability created until 2026 for the city and it would be a fairly swoll I believe um something to the in the magnitude of $29,000 a year um Justin do you know about the the formula for State Fire Aid like is would it escalate when we have full-time firefighters or just that's the amount based on population like how does I don't know anything about how that works but clearly like that will have to play a role longer term in competing retirement plans maybe Dan Julie can correct me as I understand it's based on population as well as service area so okay every year we have to turn in a form and we include the contract that we have with Eureka as a service area and then there's some sort of formula that plugs into that and also the market value of that area the market values is the other part of the formula and we've seen pretty Market increases over the past few years in those contributions I think last year we approaching $600,000 yeah it went up pretty substantially between 22 so I think there was some one timee supplemental Aid in there okay last year but even before that it going up every year so to answer my question it if we have fulltime or not it doesn't I don't think it think I don't think they differentiate between got it have I mean you would mention it briefly I was just curious when I read through this um because we use that Aid to fund the uh the account but with fulltime there's going to be a state mandating contribution to those uh police fire pensions so I mean the funds are G to going to go to two different separate places for it that'd be at the discretion of the council right now it all goes toward here because they only ones it has to go toward retirement for five mons So in theory there could be situation where we' have to do some phasing based on yeah okay every other department U that has gone through this transition has I should say every many departments that have gone through this transition um have come to an agreement with the relief Association about how those funds are okay which that makees sense question yeah so in years past um well maybe the last time I around but the vesting uh issue has come up before as far as the years um does that change when we're moving to a full-time I mean before it was because you wanted to entice people to want to come in and be a firefighter but what is the rationale between the five and seven now that we're going to be eventually moving to home sure I I think it's important right now to continue to try to attract paid on call Firefighters this model that we're moving towards it requires there be at least 50 paid on call Firefighters so I think there's still a need for us to try to incentivize Recruitment and Retention with this pension um I think to be transparent I think in the coming years what the relief Association will be for um is a change to like a 10-year investing plan for the paay on call pension and that mirrors what we're seeing in Apple Valley and a lot of in our neighboring cities fully best y just to add on that from some of our conversations the highest attrition rates are in that 0 to five year range so I I think part of the conversation uh was how can we get those two to threeyear Firefighters to stay so that they they reach that fiveyear point and feel more vested in the department so that it then continues that retention Beyond uh five years as well the seven is fairly long time and we're losing quite a few firefighters between zero and seven yeah I think the average tenure for El fire fighter is six years most cases they're seeming nothing and the biggest investment that department makes in firefighter is the first five years miss anything you guys wanted to cover no I think the only I would add on um you know as we start the transition to fulltime um actually the amount of hours that are required for the pay on call people You' think it would go down but it's actually going to go up as we staff 247 so we'll have Cruise Duty crws on 247 so the amount of hours we're asking from our paid on call people including working some overnight shifts and things like that will go up so that's part of the reason too I thought it would be a good time to come and bring this proposal of the council that differs a little bit though Chief Meyer did say he picked a month recently where all but three calls overnight would have been handled solely by the full-time crew so there would only been three times that the paid on call would have been paged out overnight yeah so the in theory call backs go down which is great you're not getting up night um unscheduled but you are still having to work those schedule Dy crw shifts which will now hours a day okay um other questions or thoughts I just I just have a question just not knowing how the works and all that do because a firefighter once their invested do they have the opportunity if they want and they choose to to put extra money in that I don't believe they have that opportunity as the set up but they can roll this over to another retirement account or something like that okay so the the money they have was the best and they could make that choice with like to move it to a make it roll it to a different when they C retire that's usually what we see they give us their information for financial so I'm fairly comfortable with the the vesting schedule something we've been talking about for quite a while and my hope is that it helps crack that amount of you know zero to six kind of window um and I'm open to to moving the the benefit levels you know this is the same conversation had a couple years ago when we went from 10 to 12 10 to 12 because it was this the ma that was the max at the time um I'm just a little nervous because it's a big jump and thinking about can we meet somewh in the middle where we phase it in to say okay by this date we'll do the 15th so is it the 2020 26 or whatever vers a 27 depending on when this starts um that would kind of just be my initial thought but open to what others would say but to at least to make a statement say y this is where we're going but as we I'm I'm just still nervous about the economy where we're having and what's going to happen for your return and all those type of things and just be able to say okay yeah we can get there but it might take 18 months 24 months instead of you know year I could see that can see phasing it over couple years and doing part of it now and then the other part wants to know what the econom is going to do because it's a lot of it's just looking at the numbers with the number of people that are going to uh like you say a lot Dro zero to two years a company 18 drop Zer to two well no it's 18 um but I would be in favor of just bumping it up over the course of a couple years and you start that point see how go is it how often does the state change the cap every two years I think it's every it it doesn't happen that free I want to say it's like every 10 it's by legislation um so it's whenever legislator takes it up yeah I don't think it's on like a clock or anything because I I think if I remember I might have rais it to 10 because that was like the keep kept stepping it up there for every couple ofal years in there something but I can't remember it predates my tenure but I want to say that it's been at 15 no it's just got it just went up to 15 this is the first year oh I'm sorry was it 12 before yeah that's where we caught up yeah yeah it was at 12 for a while yeah I mean yeah because 20 we went to I want to say we went don't hold me to it but we went to the max pretty quickly after it got there um maybe not the 10 the 10 might have been there for a while the 10 was there for a while once it went up to 12 I think we yeah we went from 10 to 12 on one year my concern I I understand your concerns um and the uncertainty with the market but um I do think it's a a really critical time you know in the for the state of the department for us to um seriously consider the move to 15 because I do think attrition is at risk and I think this this would send the right statement that the city is fly and supportive with pay on call staff and I think it will retain people that are both long tenured and and motivate people to St that are more recently each even doing 1500 this year and 1500 next year I don't think it'll have the impact that we're hoping yeah I think this year just a full-time change um and then the demand everything that's coming with it um is going to ask a lot for the fire department um the callbacks and stuff that we see from the fire department the callbacks in the middle of the night we aren't getting those a lot of those 10year guys or you know those guys that might be seeing that and the 20 year that you know we're get the young guys to go to those over we're gonna get to a point where we're going to ask everybody now to um get away from their families in the middle of the night for eight hours and sleep at a fire station to do those overnight calls where right now firefighters have the ability to roll over on those overnight calls if they don't want to wake up or they don't want to spend time with their family so these increase of Duty Crew hours we only taking firefighters more away from their families in that sense right because you're doing shift work um so I think you know same you know $1,500 a year um for some of those guys that are are at their breaking point or just enough right um and families are be saying enough's enough so we you know if we don't get enough for those guys there's a good chance that a lot of those firefighters are just saying enough's enough and we drop down below 50 in a matter of instant here and six firefighters isn't going to solve a fulltime Department five and the six come from We're our own attrition just the first year remember we're G have 18 within three years so at least that's the and as I understood Chief Meyer's comments um 50 is still that number at 18 so you know we're yeah if it if it were to drop you know imediately year one we're fight an uphill battle out of the shoot well that was one of the reasons I was more comfortable with proposal was because what's not factored in here is that decrease down in terms of how its impact on the fund but as you are getting fewer and fewer paid on call and kind of stealing from yourself to for the full-time um department for example we just hired uh an inspector who didn't get his pension because you didn't meet that threshold I think he in what two two or three years four yeah four so it's still a few years out and so those dollars the liability was in there but he didn't receive those dollars out um so to me worst case scenario was a fairly low risk um understand the the desire uh to potentially phase Us in I the council went that direction I would hope that it would be a shortterm phase of you know 15 this year 15 next year but the way the numbers look to me comfortable going up right away okay others I Joshua I'm comfortable with that as well right away sure yeah I'm I'm fine with that I just so I'm fine with the fiveyear versus seven that helps probably it's a little harder swallow for me to go from 20 to 10 but we figure it out on the time TR um but but um so yeah I'm fine with the recommendations they forward M I have a question that's a related to fire but this here I'll wait till consensus whatever you're okay um well it sounds like we defin had consensus on the five years and there's certainly a majority that want to go to the 15 based on the recommendation so it would be my recommendation to staff is to go with what you guys proposed appreciate that and would this then be eligible to for a consent agenda at next council meeting y because timing the timing element is obviously really important with the full-time I believe starting first week of March think it's the anticipated started so um I promise I'm not trying to argue against you guys I just have it job here um going into the 15 is fine it'll be really hard to Advocate having the festing schedule to 10 years if you do this would be really detrimental to the fund um and it would be putting the city at a pretty big risk so just prepping you all as you go back and tell your group I would think very hard about coming back with that recommendation great thank you for the feedback y okay and I guess just in closing if I could make a last comment I did want to offer a special thanks to C and M were their added involvement handed feedback throughout this process really helpful thank you okay thank you guys we appreciate it as always appreciate you taking your time away from family as much as you do not just tonight obviously these are easy ones i' probably compare to the 3:00 a.m. ones be here yeah yep there y so because of the the number of hours that have increased on the medical call service areas Etc is it possible that we could look at an Avenue that um maybe we can Garner back some of the um expenses to that I I mean I'm not really sure all the causes that and why it keeps escalating so is there a way that we can look at the city can look at uh exploring um what we can actually charge an insurance company for some of this there's got to be some ways maybe to recoup some of those costs if you guys are interested in the city looking into that I'm just thinking you know there might be an opportunity that be gner monies through the year I mean I realize it would be a billing we'd have somebody would have to be billing for it but yeah I mean I think um pay for itself I think that's part of the conversation about franchise fees and and how those impact more broadly across the tax spectrum that we're g to have billing an insurance company would be a franchise fee no but just that could be part of the conversation we about franchise fees and how potentially could pay for fire station well I'm still just trying to figure out why I'm trying to figure out the system why over the years the medical keeps going up and up and you know and so and the population the medical calls are going up higher than the population so there isn't any correlation there and so it's costing it's causing more Demand on the fire department and the call on duty you know all of these things and I'm just looking at a way to Garner more revenue for the fire department right and what you're talking about is starting to be a major uh roadblock at the capit we had a conversation about it at our mlc meeting and that is how it's a fight really between potentially Us in hospitals because they're the ones get paid you know they ambulances get paid by bringing them somewhere there's no incentive to actually fix somebody on site fix them you know what I mean the incentive is actually taken in the hospital so there's a broader conversation happening at the state level on what the future of at least on the medical side looks like we used to talk about billing insurance companies for that it's it's the relationship with the hospital and the rig if you will and there's all these task force like my Council there's task force and legislators so even if you broadened the billing to um help recoup some of the costs of the mental health needs too the other spectrum of services that are being provided in the home um I I don't know I'm in the it's something that we can investigate whether or not I me that's my hope that as we continue to have a conversation about moving in full-time what what is our relationship with our Ambulance Service look like uh and then are there going to be changes at the state level but you can bet that the hospitals are going to fight that I mean that's their that's a major Revenue driver so it's is part of the problem I think as long as the city is only providing EOS Services non transport no ALS it's going to be awfully hard to get any meaningful recoup services and fire billing you know some cities do do it but it's rare and it doesn't generate a ton of Revenue there's a certain type of coding I mean it's good to investigate it I'm just not sure they can provide some background on okay thanks guys um do we want to take a quick five minute break before our toes in theot pool here okay we'll just take five minutes so we'll move on to our cannabis zoning discussion is something we've kind of brought up in the past um I know we have two folks here that if you want to win just you know give me a signal we'll kind of thank you have your way if you want or not that's fine too but or if you have any questions yes thank you appreciate that um so I don't know Tina are you gonna kind of Kick this off yep I'll jump in um I'll try to kind of cut to the chase here of what we're trying to um continue the conversation we did a I think a couple of months ago an attorney from Campbell kudon talked a little bit about the new law um we all know that the office of cannabis management um will begin licensing you know originally the thought process was as early as next January I'd be shocked if it was then um they're still working on um Staffing and even getting a director for that department um but they'll be in charge of all of the licenses so that would include clude the commercial growing and eProcessing as well as the retail sales um they're also going to be responsible for preparing model ordinances so anything that we prepare um early this year ahead of the model ordinances might have to be tweaked we just kind of want to make the council be aware of it that you know we can do our best trying to deal with all of the potential um issues that we might need to include in the ordinance but without that model ordinance might have to do some tweaks and that department is just way behind um but anyways they um if you read the statute there's about a dozen or more there's 12 different types of licenses so going through that um staff will have to do make some U do some more work to really understand all those different types of licenses and try and figure out and plug those into different zoning districts so what we do know though is that the office of canvas management or ocm will be responsible for the licensing we're responsible for the registration so if a business has a valid license we must issue the registration State Statute does say um that from a retail standpoint we must allow one registration per 12,500 residents so for Lakeville that means up to six Reg registrations from retail standpoint or the um dispensary standpoint generally Municipal regulations are preempted again we don't have a lot of control over this ordinance or the statute or the implementation however we do have a role when it comes to zoning although that role is still a little bit limited but we can determine time place and manner of operation so some of the things that the statute does allow um are some specific setbacks that we can do we don't have have to but we can Implement some set setbacks that includes a th000 feet from a school 500 feet from a daycare and a residential treatment facility um or an attraction in a public park so basically any park that has a playground play um Playfield things like that we can add a restriction to that so remember five a th000 feet for school 500 feet daycare and park again these limitations are an option but not a requirement so what we really need to do is start thinking about that and think about the different types of licenses that we're going to have and I'm generalizing them in this memo to basically things that come around growing it cultivating it creating it manufacturing it into you know gummies versus just the the flower the distribution of the product and then the actual sale of the product so I kind of divide it up between kind of the whole what you would think of a manufacturing process compared to a retail process so when you think of our zoning District our i1 and our I2 District allows for any kind of manufacturing processing of a product I don't really see um cannabis as much different from that um folks are going to be looking for a location where they might be able they might want to grow it that's largely going to be interior um it could just exist right in a warehouse building with popup Greenhouse we might be asked to consider an actual Greenhouse structure you know a glass wall structure that's something that we will need to spend some time on retail sales of the dispensary could be looked at as any other kind of retail use and our C1 um our C2 which is the highway but commercial District C3 General um and then there is the downtown or the ccbd central business district downtown zonian district but a dispensary would be considered more of a retail use very similar to a liquor store um again considering those distance limitations we did prepare a couple of maps um this one is with all of the restrictions and again this is a moving Target depending on licensing for child care centers so this is kind of worst case the gray is the coverage area where a dispensary or other kind of license use would not be allowed so then when I flip to the next map um the next map doesn't include any of the daycare so you'll see some lightning and some area where the gray is removed but it's not it's a little dramatic but not real dramatic of a change you can definitely see the difference having these two maps is important when I dig into what the Planning Commission and economic development commission shared we talked to the Planning Commission same memo that's in front of you um talked about the difference between What could occur in an industrial district compared to a commercial district and the Planning Commission first started talking you know we should include all of the restrictions to start because it's easier than to peel back those layers than adding them into the ordinance and then the conversation kind of shifted where they started going down the road of well how is this any diff thinking just the retail how is it any different than our liquor store and we don't have any distance limitations with our liquor stores and so their recommendation at the end was to go go with the second map add just schools and um the parks but not include the dayc carees the economic development commission had very similar conversations and the Planning Commission did talk about this too in terms of ventilation both on an industrail building as well as in a retail we don't want to have someone o operating a dispensary in a retail setting where you will be able to pull out the product some of you'll be able to smell the product you can't use the product in the store you can have it um pull it out let someone smell it so there could be some scent and odor that gets out um we'll have to deal with some requirements regarding ventilation in any scenario and the EDC talked about that a lot and then in the end they did recommend all of the restrictions again the logic the logic with the EDC was we can pull back these layers if we need to um so that's this is the map they preferred so really what we're here this evening to talk about is what are you all thinking um again we're kind of dividing a lot of those license types into kind of the industrial area and the retail area um we're going to have to really dig into the various license types and how those um might fit in but just an example from statute um there'll be a license for a cannabis cultivator cannabis manufacturer cannabis retailer wholesaler transporter testing facility delivery facility um and then you have some of the same under the medical definition so again considering that division um some of the questions that we have tonight is how do you see dividing up these uses this is something that you would want to see as a permitted use versus a conditional I think a conditional coming right out of the shoot would probably be smart because we will have standards by which a business is is going to have to operate under um does the council want to distinguish between zoning districts do you want to allow retail in all the commercial districts do we want to talk separately about downtown um and then does the council feel um strongly about all the distance regulations some of the distance regulations those are the kinds of conversations we want to start having so we can start piecing subordinance together so I my suggestion be we should have a conversation about s first separate from like the manufacturing just because it's so different because I think in general we're going to be confining the manufacturing to Industrial use versus I think it's easier to Clump those that but and then question I has about the retail is um is there separate licenses for that because some retail will be hey I have cannabis for sale some retail as my May are saying that hey this is a cannabis bar you can come in and you can smoke the Cannabis here I mean is there a distinction between those two things or the same thing there probably is and again I'm not an expert with the statute I've read through it once gentlem each going for dist strict retail not a cannabis bar um and the state hasn't really flushed that out I don't think what their plans were if you read the bill it's 230 some pages but very little actual detail can the Department of Health and the office of can's management are can face for their poll making currently I believe where they taking input from the registered hemp uh licensed should include steveen myself um businesses and and other stakeholders in those communities and um those are happening to by internet surveys but I don't think any of those rules flushed out yet like stepen said you've got the complexities of you know not only retail license but but micro business and meso business which include retail locations but would also include limited amounts of vertical integration so correct me if I'm wrong too though um and this was kind of my point to duck with earlier because he asked about tweets right now it's only where everything is prepackaged they not like opening and smelling so like the retail setting in theory should have a lot less odor component compared to manufacturing I can't speak for Kyle but in my business plan and but there is a u a m odor mitigation system the charcoal and uh I've shared that with our landlord too and so that's part of it but that's not required in state law I I believe it is if you're attached to if you've got Neighbors on either side and we didn't want uh that smell going I I like that we're next to a coffee rooster that smells delicious and hippy go does their bacon love that but no one wants to have the smell of weed and so um I believe when it comes packaged to us that's going to take care of a lot of the odor I don't believe we're able to open it up and share it with yeah that's like uh an Oregon thing but that's not the way other like Illinois is yeah I was recently in Nevada for a National Convention in the marijuana industry and the way it's done in Most states is that you enter and there's a vestibule you present your government issued ID and you're get checked in in a system called metric and then you enter the retail portion where you're actually doing the physical shopping they show you whatever they've got you make your decision they punch it into a computer and then someone in a completely separate room uh prepares that order that area has to be it'll be boled it'll be it has to have electronic security um and then you will uh that the people on the back will prepare that order they it'll be attached to that person uh metric tracks both it's basically like a pharmacy system where it tracks patient and Doctor you know using general terms here but uh and then that gets passed through the pass through portion back to the retail spot where the cashier will have to in Nevada anyway it has to be in an Opa bag with a childproof zipper and it has to be order free or order uh dampening and then you hand it to the customer the customer is not allowed to like I mean you open to verify but it has to remain shut till they exit out of separate exit and that I believe is how we're working with some I'm working with a an agency that does Consulting and has lobbyists in the state and they're kind of telling me that that's the direction we're probably going in okay so but that has none that's been flushed out yet because there's no that's all rul making stuff correct but I believe that's the direction that Minesota will be going that's my word of caution is I want us to say yeah we're we're broadly speaking on the these things and you know wanting businesses but we're going to want to have some tightening on certainly ventilation for instance yep uh in in however we write this so I think the zoning is one but our that's why I think your point about conditional use so that we can answer a lot of these you know I mean if they can't even hire a commissioner for good sake I know you know we just don't want to put ourselves on say no under any circumstance you could just open a store without having some that's my my fdy Dy response as I read through and I the conditioning just jumped out um and I mean to your point this isn't hash I mean that sounds like quite a process to sell you know a substance um so we'll see if Minnesota ends up like that um in terms of the map um I think I'm most in favor of what doesn't cause confusion um and I think if you do the parks and the schools I I would take the recommended thousand feet um the dayc carees I'm not so sure of the impact that any of these places would have on the dayc carees um and there's you know a new daycare comes up and it's within 500 ft in my place but I was theit when we built it then you have that question so for the map I'm I mostly favor the recommended thousand feet from the schools lrs are parks that kids would use to the edc's recommendation with this how how do you pull that back though I mean you can't you do that on a one-on-one basis case to case basis we typically have not we tried to make it you know clear and clean for everyone without having to make exceptions so how do you do that if this is the map because covers a lot of the retail yep areas yep I think um I'm not entirely sure I think by pulling back I think they they mean let's start with all of the restrictions and then if for instance if we don't have enough areas for the six because of the coverage we may then tweak the ordinance and pull back and not include daycares but then there would be some stores that did comply with the more restrict is that what the minut said I don't remember that's how the conversation went but EVC I thought they were okay with what the Planning Commission said on daycares the some of them were the majority way I took it again it was a very informal conversation but the way I took it at the end is they wanted to have all three daycare schools parks and then pull back if we needed to was a majority but that you know or super majority but it was more than them than not they and they thought that that would be productive for economic development by having more restrictions they definitely appro approached it more conservatively some of the plan Commissioners suggested no restrictions because we don't for the liquor stores right but then others kind of pulled them back so I mean it you know I didn't I didn't do a pull there wasn't a concern that if you it was the impact to other businesses I think yeah and if and if you if all of a sudden you having impacts you had people that had invested in their stores and now you want to pull back and they invested in that area that now is in a gray so it's almost a reverse impact on yeah if we keep it tight have all three entities be regular ated or all three areas be regulated and in the future we start get more and more requests of hey we want to be in these areas that are close to dayc carees then that usually triggers Planning Commission to say okay there's a market out there or there's a change here that we need to consider I mean that's how typically operating in the past they don't what they don't want to have happen is people start locating in those areas that are close to daycare and all of a sudden it's a problem and now those people have already invested in those spaces and then what do you do when you want to then regulate them at that space But if you look at this map the yellow dots are the daycares the family the inh home day basally right right which We're not gonna allow this I assume you're not going to allow this in residential zoning anym so I mean here's here's my not you're not free the area that you're freeing up in this would be downtown basically because of um what's the name other going downtown High High Point High Point yeah that at least as I look at it yeah I mean my my take is just in general daycare is can be more transitory schools are institutions they not going anywhere um and I would hate to say you know you get in a situation where you do daycares and then you have one Clos and then that's could you then have something there I mean does that Dynamic and I I don't think it needs to be so I'm less concerned about including dayc careers well I okay so I'm may be stupid but I can't figure out even what the difference is between a school and a daycare and this establishment so um the kids are busted or they walk home I guess in a school uh dayc carees kids are always picked up because they're little so I can see you know not eliminating the daycare as part of the strategy but we already don't allow it in the Parks so I'm not really sure why we have to worry about being close to a park and as far as the schools it's a contained environment too except if you were going to say the high schools or something I don't know I can't figure out how the schools in this business are going to be a problem when they can go when tobacco so at every store in the world and so I I just don't I don't see it I don't see the protection level that's needed well they also don't have a I mean there's very few commercial areas that are impacted by the schools it's more the dayc carees I mean other than the the part of North right Heritage United Christian Academy okay yeah yes so it's yep and again these limitations are a choice it's not a mandate right it's an option par are choice too pardon the parks are choice I I agree I mean I look at that the parks are all residential areas except for maybe two Valley Cara the distances are well the hilarious thing about the parks is it actually excludes us if we ever got into the count buiness because you're talking about Heritage and you're talking about Gx see the same place right yeah right you're going to do so so you say n I'm I'm good with nothing so you're saying none yeah I'm saying just the schools schools I I mean I didn't go with just the schools I mean I said parks in schools too but you know you can't smoke it in the Parks anyway and I'm not not sure what effect it has so I could I could go with the schools I mean I guess I'm thinking what's that park that's north of is a Dodge trail park there's a corner of that little commercial that would be impacted right and then Cedar and do because you have um that's the big one the yeah chrisan Heritage Academy Academy that takes out all the crossroads pretty much okay that question I just asked was about mean we're assuming a th000 feet too that's the maximum distance away from not less it could be 800 feet yeah 500 how far away is Maguire and JFK from downtown oh it's thousands it's thousands okay see I I have no conception of distance I apologize but I really don't I mean if somebody tells me a mile it still seems L you so I have no conception in distance you can kind of tell by the circle there I mean it goes across 210th this oh yeah feet from the I know but then what about there's that strip M over there or whatever so does it get affected so that's picked y that's that's covered in the gray and somebody explained to me why the schools I mean what are you worried about it's what the state put in we're just saying what the state is allowing no I'm talking about my fellow council members they're you know they're saying the schools but what are you what are you worried about what what's the different between the schools in a liquor store and the schools in a cannabis dispensary um I to be honest I mean I I would want to talk to the school district about if they were concerned or not I mean that's it' be more of a question just to have with it I I also don't buy the liquor store comparison since we got VES of a liquor I if this we talking about private ones I would see comparison for sure yeah I mean if we had we had as many liquor licenses as Burnsville I would feel way different about I mean they have 10 or 11 or whatever their num okay but the what is about the schools that you want to include it what is it about it I think it's the perception of access and the potential to buy something and have and provide access to other kids in the schools even with the age restrictions I mean I think it it's probably not as big of a concern if we've got legitimate businesses but we also have illegitimate businesses is running right now um I don't know what kind of our sro's what their thoughts are on use in the schools drugs in general um I I think the policy is more about perception than it is maybe about actual access of high schoolers or middle schoolers to THC candidas okay I I mean I think there are some areas where it's the schools are creating kind of too much restriction I would I would want to look at the distance and not just assume a thousand feet um yeah do we have a um a map that shows 500 versus a thousand I can we can get one though so seem we come to consensus about the daycare situation y right but not it's a matter of the parks to maybe yeah I mean I not yeah so really we're talking about so I think that's fine I think the school thing is it's on me to probably a conversation with the superintendent or Justin maybe to just if they care at all I don't I don't know yep we can do another math that includes 500 F okay is there any concern over the various resident or retail zoning districts you know from uh C2 C1 neighborhood business to C2 C3 is the more General um and then downtown any concern of looking this as this as any other retail business I don't I don't think so what can a a tobacco place currently be same same all three C districts y you like the idea of a cop yeah um again we ahead and I my understanding is the council's really trying to get our arms around where we think we want to have these establishments so that when people do call we can guide them towards that whether it's on the books or not um concern I have is everything these gentlemen just shared about how a facility will operate they may have purview to how the the mashing of the you know the ru making is happening we at the city level we're not getting that from ocm so we don't have that model ordinance in front of us so we can attempt to try and create and include this so that the messaging is in our ordinance is that people understand yep you can do the cultivation processing and so forth in the industrial districts get that on the books knowing that we're going to change it or we can pause wait a few more months see if any rule making comes out where is your thought process on that but couldn't we if we if we just designate it's industrial but all those things that we're talking about can't that be part of the conditional use could proc we just may not cover everything and I don't see us granting anything to anybody because there is nothing right it'll just be whether or not you're comfortable with people making invest I mean we've had this discussion right yeah yeah that people are signing Lees to buy land I think if we're upfront and we don't know they the state hasn't made their decisions yet they haven't you know issued any licenses we don't know what those look like once they're issued and you I don't know if we need to figure out if there's just a standard conditional use for me it would be things like control and stuff like that yep yep we can start with that and include as many standards as we think and then add and you know we'll be learning and evolving as we go through this but I agree with you you know I get phone calls I get people wanting to meet they're interested in Lakeville for various parts of the business we need to be able to be responsive to that and many cities aren't they're just holding back waiting so I think if we're out in front of it it puts us in a good position for these businesses one point we had talked about our desire was to limit the overall number in the city um I don't know what mechanism there is to do that we have to allow at least from a retail standpoint at least six based on the population but that was countywide no that's just City there is a number countywide but it's greater than we have to allow six unless the county itself has one per that 12,500 so 4 right or something so West St Paul and in app Valley get 40 applications before we get one theoretically we could deny it now we could we're at six cap it do that if there's interest in that not by me but that's all right yeah that would have to be part of i' like I thought we decided that anybody like so if I remember right the conversation was that in each of our U retail hubs trying to manage the number to kind of one per Hub that's how I remember the conversation but that was envirment between yeah between stores right you can do that yeah we hadn't flushed that conversation out I just we talked about it sometimes the depending on where they are the landlords take care of that they do because they have know Mexican one Mexican restaurant per strip mall sure yeah I mean obviously the market is going to tweak some of this I mean what I've heard with the driv is considering at mic lake is like the Mall of America pot right so you know at some point like how many how many mom and pop stores are actually going to thrive I don't know so I think putting it it's gonna be hard to run one well I think we got some direction well slow played a little bit until model ordinances come out but we least be a direction yeah sure so is there sense I mean maybe Steve KY maybe you know that we're going to see rules before there's an agency head appointed like the the middle level management is working on this what's the you appointed advisory boards members to cover various things including enforcement I heard last week that they were trying to push the licensing timeline forward for cultivators Growers manufacturers Expediting it you may see people approaching new folks within the next you know eight months create a supply chain before they start retails it's six month growing drying and then testing uh you know obviously in the winter time it all have to be in door R but um the state is talking about moving up for just for cultivators Farmers um I might just add too that uh when the license application comes out kle and I will have to submit um our location and the safety plan for the space and so that's one of the reasons we're very interested in knowing what the zoning is going to be if we're investing in having an architect fild it out and that sort of thing so um so thank you for your yeah thank you dispensary is the only thing that there's kind of the mandatory minimum on okay Direction thanks good thank you guys for coming too um okay moving on I think we're just on updates right items discussion anything okay commit City admin I'll just I've got one and it's this is from kind of our last work session Justin and I went to the cda's well the mayor manager meeting last week was held at the County CDA and they talked a lot about housing and one of the things that I learned maybe you knew this is that the money can basically be used for everything the end goal is some sort of housing component if we had like a tough site that needed some infrastructure or tear down a building or something that then results in housing for instance we can use that Mone I you know yeah but not any housing yeah sorry under the portal yeah we can't tear down whatever then put marker but um so that was interesting we can't put a dorm in the public safety no no we can't but um so that it was it was interesting I think the the big number the big two numb um that I thought were intriguing that I also did not know there's a thousand seniors right now in the county waiting for you know the apartments that are offered by CDA which to me is like domino effect on you know if you're if you're able to live in a County property you're not in a 400 or $500,000 home right now and so in theory we should be Crea single family or giv duplexes by solving that nut so that was part and then they said there's 3,000 families trying to get into the town home program or I don't know if it's 3,000 people or 3,000 families people I think people okay so it might be less family units but those people 2000 names okay so that could be a household it could be a single okay okay um and they expressed interest in in partnering with the different entities about what that would be um and they also shared they had four different kind of pamphlets on programs that would qualify that are currently things that they operate whether it's [Music] weatherization you know some of those kind of like preservation things um they would just want to know from cities like if you want to put a bunch of money into weatherization for instance we need to staff up for it so they need to have a you can't just like say oh this year you can dump the money in there because you don't know what to do with it so we'd have to have that conversation um my just message to us in the room would be you could see heads nodding from other Mayors there and at some point the CDA is stretched in so the more willingness for us to say yeah we want to partner on a senior apartment building and getting to the front of the line so to speak the better otherwise we might end up not getting they're just they're stretched in you know and they don't have the staff your so was in Lakeville or the was in Dakota County we don't know what what Lakeville waiting list is uh doesn't matter yeah I mean don't have to live in Lake if they build in the lake bill they won't oh I see what you're saying if it it's it only matters to me the fact that I want to make sure our citizens I me they need so Josie's grandmother lived in those building she was in Rosemont Hastings and fingon she was smart enough to get on the waiting list when they're building new ones so she new apartment in three years okay so yeah it doesn't you just have to be account does it have to be a whole CDA building or what about you know 68% Ami type so uh yeah so we could do a mix and again the money so let's say we had a building in Downtown lake bill that we don't love where a US Federal entity Works in we could raise that building create some commercial and then have housing above it as let's just say as an example percent you'd have to say Okay the housing money went to pay for the infrastructure for the three levels of Housing and then a private entity would have to pay their portion for the level so that's how in today and that was the other thing is his Tony's message was that's the interpretation today the state is going to at some point realize that this was like the wild west and they're goingon to to dial that down a bit so we're going to have the most flexibility yeah over the next 18 36 months versus five years from now so it was good information and I think we need to have a conversation about you know what we want to do because at the end of the day I mean the amount of money in five years we're going to be having 600,000 a year yes so I mean you can bond for a decent senior Barber building or you know pay the or yeah or you know put it into weatherization and preservation of those things too but and those are easier just because the programs exist so my my message back is I wouldn't recommend us standing up a weatherization program or you know you'd want to just partner with the county on that but a surprisingly small number of people even do it I think last year you know it was like 24 Properties or something well we don't have a ton of money I mean yeah okay it doesn't take much to new windows or furnace or things like that that needs it UPG great so anyway well it's not highly advertised right well it gets used up I mean our that begin counting for okay through cdbg get yeah there's there's probably a good chance if you're in kind of that if you're getting Wick or snap or something you're going to get targeted for those type of programs so you have somebody that's working with you like a social worker helping these that all the resources available for them okay uh just a reminder that Thursday is menure friendly communities Pick Off 2 pm at the Heritage Center uh representative Cosmic and I will just kick it off and then it's going to be a the dementia friendless commity program presents these hourong uh dementia information programs and the idea is that we continue to do these in the community and so the community becomes aware what di menion looks like what you can do if you see it and and encounter it um I think it ties right in with the senior population and the elderly people and it's not everybody's Elder it's going to be a good effort uh if you can't make the 25th we're going to have a session on Saturday the 27th at Falcons that was on at 10: a.m. same thing will be an info session so love to see as many people as possible there and the idea is to just make the mention for the sake of Quorum I I was planning to go on Thursday I don't know if anyone else I'll be gra so I can well have to worry about it for sounds like it doesn't matter no I have an Alf meeting on Thursday um so that'll be interesting it's only my second time going to a meeting um so there was a nice presentation last year um but having been to the mlc meeting learning a little bit more about just ulatory urements there's a lot to wrap your head around um and they say their service is great and fine um well here that's fine but they're bringing to a place where the emergency department and Fairview is overrun so if you could try to limit the amount of people that are going to Fairview r that would be great but you know to your question about uh our medical call increase I was noticing in the report about how much your calls it's called in Lakeville and just the response time being greater so clearly that means they're sitting somewhere else um and I I don't know what the call volume is um based on the report but I don't know just it doesn't all add up but yeah uh then I will take take a motion to mov in favor [Laughter] post"