[music] Hello and welcome back to another conversation in South St. Paul. I'm Mayor Jimmy Francis and today with us is our city attorney Corey Land from Leavander Gillan and Miller. Now, Corey, before we get into anything, I like to ask people a couple of questions just so people that are watching or listening can get to know you a little bit better before we jump right into what we're talking about. So, who's your favorite band? What's your favorite musician? >> That's an interesting question. I uh I don't listen to anything but Christian music. >> Okay. So, uh, just because it fills my my head with positive, uh, noises. I'd rather have positive noises in my world. Uh, so Mercy Me is probably one of my favorite bands. >> Mercy Me. >> Okay. Oh, neat. That's awesome. >> Yeah. So, you know, when you're driving, like if I were to go in your car or mechanic gets in your car, that's what they're going to hear when they when they pop on. >> Yes. >> If they turn on the radio. >> Yes. >> Cool. So, uh, you have a favorite sports team? Green Bay Packers, which helps when the council is supporting the Packers. I can say out loud, I also support the Packers. I'm just thinking of a different one. >> You feel good about that. Yeah. But you're also a NASCAR fan, right? >> I am. I am. I've I've been a probably 25 year NASCAR fan. Um, my drivers are all retiring, so it's hard to find a new one to glom on to. Kyle Larson, who just won the championship, is probably one of my favorites right now. So when you say your drivers, these are ones that you've you watch, you think they're going to be the next up. They're they're winning races, right? Cheer for. You gota you got to root for somebody. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. So that's where we could find you is that's a that's a happy place of yours is NASCAR. >> It is NASCAR or watching a Packer game. >> Watching a Packer game. That's great because that's that was maybe my next question is always what do you like to do in your free time when when >> you got nothing else? No one's in charge. You get to pick what you want to do. What's Cory Land doing? >> It depends on the season. Uh if it is this time of year, I'm probably in a deer stand. So, I bow hunt and I gun hunt. And so, this is kind of the sweet spot for that right now. Um in when it gets to be more in the winter, I'm snowmmoiling if I can. If there's enough snow and are um and we can get to the property, I'm I'm snowmmoiling. Um in the spring, I like to plant a garden. I'm not great at it. I'm not great at any of these things, but I do like them. I enjoy them very much. And in the summertime, if I can just get outside and be in the woods and go for a walk, that's what I'll do. Just to try to find some quiet, you know, all those things are very solitary. >> Yeah. >> And uh my my regular work world is so full of people >> um and conversations that sometimes I need to just get away. >> Right. Yeah. Those are all great. I didn't know that about you, but bow hunting. That is awesome. >> Yeah. Well, we're we have a lot in common and for what you just described as your happy places, too. Uh, so you talk about I we call people when we're over people. >> I'm all done. We got I'm done peopling going to those those things, but um what Corey Land didn't grow up saying I want to be a city attorney. What tell us how you got to being or what what brought you to today's job of being a city attorney for so for many cities. >> Uh yeah, so city attorney is a niche I didn't know existed. I knew early on uh probably starting in junior high that I wanted to be an attorney. I don't have any in my family, but I was very argumentative. Uh and u I felt like I was winning most of the arguments because I'm always right. >> Okay, >> just ask me. I'll tell you. Uh, so I think it was about ninth grade, one of my uh, English teachers said, "You really should go to law school." And that planted the seed right there. So I knew, "All right, well, that's a goal." Um, and so I went to college with a undergraduate degree in English, uh, just so I could learn how to write better, uh, and be just more wellversed in in just, uh, persuading people and being a good communicator. Uh, and then went to law school. uh came out of law school thinking I wanted to be, you know, a prosecutor uh because I wanted to wear the white hat and come in on the, you know, the white night shining horse and and put people in jail that had been had done bad things. Um so right out of law school, applied at several firms and and happened to land at a firm that did prosecution. Uh so that worked well at Levander. That's the only firm I've ever worked at. >> Really? >> Yeah. I started right fresh out of the box after I passed the bar exam. Um and I have not left. >> Wow. >> So >> So what what was um Levander Gillan Miller today as it is today? What was it then when you came and where was it located in South St. Paul? >> It was in was in the Bremer Bank building. The only as it was described to me when I was coming to the interview for the job. It's the only fourstory glass building on Conquered Street. And true enough, [laughter] >> it was so uh that it was in had been in the Bremer Bank building since 1975 or whenever the building was built. >> Built. Okay. >> Um and that's it was on the fourth floor. Had the entire fourth floor. >> Yeah. >> Um so that's where we were up until they demolished it and they kicked us out. We would have stayed. I don't like change so we would have stayed there um forever, but they new property owner had different ideas for the site. So >> yeah, >> we had to relocate to Egan. >> You think about that in in the city of South St. Paul and a law firm that you know, you just came to back then and are the principal today and carrying it forward, but all the history of that firm and all of the clients as well as just the projects that you all worked on. Does any of those, you know, the the legacy ones from before you stand out as something that they were always proud of or maybe, you know, the principal in the firm or anything stories you can tell like that? >> Well, as as you know, no, Leander Gillan and Miller is almost 100 years old and we have always been in South St. Paul. >> Uh, so before that, I think we were in the exchange building um and then moved to the Bremer Bank building. Roger Miller was the city attorney since 1949 until he retired about 200 10 I think. I can't remember exactly. It was around 2010 maybe a little bit before that. Um and then he handed the reigns to me. So you haven't had a lot of city attorneys I think over the years and it's always since 1949 has been Levander. So he worked on just about every development project, every property in the city of South St. when the stockyards were thriving and when they closed. >> Yeah. >> Uh when the industrial park was developed, when it was platted, all of that I look at that and I say we had our our fingerprints in how that happened and helping that to happen. Yeah. >> And that's what excites me um about working for a city is you have that opportunity to make a difference in a community that is real >> and down on the ground for people that live here, that work here. >> Um and seeing that come to fruition. Um, so I fell into being a city attorney just because I I got the job at Levander. Yeah. >> Uh, they threw me into prosecution, which is what I wanted to do. Um, my favorite part about prosecuting, and this is going to sound really odd, I didn't like the DUIs. I didn't like the domestic assaults and all the traffic things. I liked solving the problem properties. So, the nuisance violations when you had had code violations, those affect people. They affect the people that live there obviously that are creating the code violation, but it affects the city staff. It affects the neighborhood. >> And those really spoke to me on how you can immediately make a difference in an entire neighborhood if you get to clean up a property, >> right? >> So So that that is I mean it's interesting that that's exciting to you as a lawyer um to to want to do that, but that's really today how you work with our city staff, right? That's uh extension. Talk about that. talk about how you work with the departments here in our city and you know you know it's day-to-day those kinds of things. >> Yeah. So it evolved from prosecution into the day-to-day working with the city and a city is is a multi-headed corporation. You know most corporations may have different departments but they all have one widget that they make. A city may have eight different widgets, right, that they're making because you have police, fire, you have engineering, public works that are doing roads and sewer and water, right? Uh you have park and recck department that's trying to, you know, make people happy with parks. And then you have admin and all of the things that go along with just administration of government, not to mention the elected officials. That's a whole another layer of people. >> Exactly. >> That we're working with. Um, so it is a multi-headed uh entity that you have to kind of know a lot about all the things, but I might not be a master of any of them, >> right? >> Uh, so it's it is a day-to-day operation. I don't know when I pick up the phone what the issue of the day is going to be. It's a little bit of a whack-a-ole game >> that I play every day because I don't know who's going to have the issue. And sometimes they're good issues and sometimes they're not. >> Yeah. you know, and so I just I never know um whether it's an HR issue or it's a hey, we've got a new opportunity with a development project. Um can you help us get there or we came up with a glitch on somebody that wants to build a fence over a drainage utility easement. How do we deal with that? I mean, it is the entire gamut of issues that cities deal with. I have to try to navigate through all of them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you you've been counseledled to us for some major things and then um let's say somebody sues us. Um then you know we look to you and you don't take that case. What what talk about that how that happens when an entity or if you can have an example of what >> obviously my my goal is to not get sued right not have the city get sued. That's what we're trying to do all the time is is avoid that. Uh but when it happens, when somebody feels that they have been wronged and they sue the city, the first thing we do is we tender it to our insurance trust to see if they will cover it. If it's a covered claim, then we just watch and we help assist with getting information, getting make sure that they have the right people to talk to, um how to talk to the council, setting up the meetings, those kinds of things. Um there are times it's not a covered claim. And then our office, we do have a litigation department in our office and I will work with them on uh how I'm not going to do it. You know, I'm not going to be the litigator in court. Um my prosecution days are long over [laughter] >> and and litigation is t very um timeconuming. >> So I just I don't have enough room in my space of world of of a day to also manage a litigation u situation. So, >> so you're so really you you are our in-house council. Um when when things like that, we turn to our partners at the League of Minnesota Cities and they take over and help us do that. So, there's >> there's room for that. Um you uh you then spend more with our um city staff and helping us and departments craft ordinances and making sure that those ordinance are um you know solid, legal, enforcable. Um, but you also give us counsel to sometimes to to um not pursue those things and let that just those neighbors and those those situations play out because they're not it's not in our wheelhouse. >> Yeah. Those are some of the toughest conversations, >> the gray ones, the gray areas. >> And and they're not always gray. They're just difficult. Um because you have two neighbors that are going at it and you they're they're talking to their council representatives and they want somebody to solve their problem and not every problem is the city's problem to solve and that's a tough u acceptance. >> Yeah. >> Uh both for the council member because you want to solve everybody's problem. You want to fix it. Let me fix it. Let me take care of it. I just want everybody to get along. Um, but it's it's usually the neighbor on neighbor disputes, whether it's a tree or a fence or an encroachment of some kind. Somebody thinks there's I can remember one time there was um it was uh lighting was it was it was somebody's light was shining into the neighbor's window and it was too bright and they wanted the city to solve that problem, but the light wasn't violating anything. >> Yeah. you know, so I will try to, you know, make sure that the council understands it is not our problem to solve. But then maybe we also have, you know, that actually is when we developed our um our community cop, I'll call him, you know, the the officer that we sort of trained to be that neighborhood, you know, massage. Let's try to mediate and and see if we can solve a problem, right? >> Before it becomes a bigger problem, before it escalates. >> Community service officers that help that are out there. Yeah. So, [snorts] we're having a conversation in South St. Paul and talking to Corey Land from Levander Gillan and Miller, our legal department. You you talked about a little bit before just mentioned the fact um you have all of these things with all these departments, but then you have the council to deal with, right? And so, you're the one that we see every week sitting at the dis ready to answer the questions and be there for our for our meetings. Um, I'll just share just because we're on the podcast. Uh, my first call when I got elected, I called uh Corey and, you know, was a little worried about how I was supposed to run the meeting or what was supposed to happen at the meeting. And I had heard from a few people that I was supposed to do a couple certain things and I had explained that and you with a very good um cadence paused and you told me you said Jimmy your only job is to run a good meeting. That is your only job. Don't worry about agendas. Don't worry about speeches. Don't worry about anything but running a good meeting from start to finish. follow that agenda. What's on the agenda, letting people talk, that's your job. And so from day one of our relationship, I I felt good that I had good counsel. But in reality, you know, our role is really different in our city than it is in other cities. and we rely on you and staff to do a lot of that leg work to pull that forward for us to be able to make decisions, make policy, and support the policy that's there. So, you know, you've had years of experience with this, and I'm sure you've had councils who are, you know, they're all good together, they're not good together. there's there's you know um arguments between them but uh publicly privately but at the end of the day you know things get done and city business goes on and you're part of that process. So tell tell me a little the balance of the council people and you know the day-to-day like or the staff people. >> Yeah. One uh I think you you hit it the nail on the head. you called me first to say, you know, I don't I don't know exactly know what I'm doing, basically is kind of what you said. I don't know how to do this. >> Um, that's how a new elected official feels. They all feel and if they if they come into the role thinking they know everything, that's a problem because there's so much, right? >> There's so many laws and ordinances and South St. calls a charter city. So, you put a little bit more hair on it of rules you have to follow that you don't know and you don't know what you don't know. >> And the public a lot of times don't know, don't truly understand. They just they think we're mayor daily >> and we get to make all the decisions for everything as the mayor, >> right? >> And then you have your counsel or your alderman, you know? So, >> exactly. So, the first thing I like to do is train the council on all of the rules and all of the things that you didn't know uh now apply. And it's things like the open meeting law, the data practices act. These are very heavy rules that are not intuitive, >> right? >> And so often the public doesn't understand why you can't say something. And it's because I've told you you can't say something because the law doesn't allow you to say something, anything. >> And that is the hardest thing for councils to accept, >> right? >> Um because you do want to be very forthcoming. You do want to be very open with your public. They elected you for a reason. You want to be able to explain things. >> There's sometimes things you can't we just can't talk about ever. And sometimes there will be time when you can. Um, so I'd like to try to if if the councils will allow to train them on all of the rules and all of the things that they have to navigate now, conflicts of interest. That's real. >> And I I really try to caution every new council member, if you have an inkling, if this feels just a tiny bit icky, then let's talk about it. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk about it before it comes to the table so it's not an issue. >> Yeah. >> Stay away from the edge. >> Yeah. Right. We've had those conversations. Uh I know other council members have and they've also wanted to recuse themselves for something and your council says you've got nothing to recuse yourself for. You're you're going way down an aisle that isn't isn't necessary and isn't obligated by us. So your um help with us has been invaluable. It comes into that uh relationship management too. I think that really again >> whether that's relationship with the public managing that that expectation that the their need to have this information or the their questions answered >> right >> ours as electeds city staff members who think they have the the right thing for the department to do this thing and it turns out they actually no it's not >> so that it's a very interesting job you have it really city attorney It is. It is. It's challenging because I just, like I said, I never know what is going to be on the other end of the phone call. And it can be great. It can be, "Oh, I didn't see that coming." Um, kind of conversations. So, it's a constant um gymnastics, mental gymnastics that I'm doing. Uh, and sometimes they happen at the DAS, right? So, the council is is um trying to get through a very very difficult issue and I have to be completely attuned to every word that's said because I never know when someone's going to turn their head at me and say, "Miss Land, what do we do?" >> Right? >> And so, I have to I have to be paying attention all the time, >> right? >> And sometimes the answer might be, I really this is a new one. I don't know. Let's let's just think about it. And if it doesn't have to be made right now, let's not make the decision right now. >> Right. Yeah. >> But I usually try to um to give you, you know, the solution that you're looking for or at least to the tools to navigate through it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, what's most rewarding about that job then? I know you mentioned a couple things that you find joy in, but what what's most rewarding about your job? >> I really love the development work. I mean, especially here, um, where you have, um, so many opportunities for redevelopment, and it's challenging. Yeah. >> You know, a lot of challenging sites, >> I found I just about everything's contaminated in one way, shape, or form. Uh, whether it's contaminated truly or it's just bad soil, it it's going to need some work. So there's always and you have great staff that can find, you know, grants and resources to help get these, you know, the the site things site ready, pad ready for construction. Um, but trying to put the the right things in place to get the the documents and the agreements and all of the right making sure that we have enough um tools to pull it back if something goes badly, right? >> You know, you can't just we're just going to give away lots of money, right? Um, we need to be able to to hold true to the fiscal responsibility that you have as a city to do things appropriate, but you know, to encourage economic development, but at the same time have have the control that if somebody screws it up, you get to, you know, take it back or or figure out how to um to recover as much as you can out of a project. So, it it's um there's a lot of uh challenging things in South St. that I find it's >> I'm not great at math, but I kind of look at it as a big giant math problem, you know, trying to put all the pieces together. Yeah. >> And helping staff get there and then seeing it built. >> I was told there would be no math. [laughter] >> Me, too. >> I think probably one of my most rewarding projects is the yards and the backyards because that was so painful. >> Yeah, let's go down that rabbit hole. You brought it up. That's a good one because it's uh it was the infrastructure was done that area was done in the early 70s made that parking ramp that was >> the skyway >> skyway. Yeah. So we had a bank building an old building that was retrofitted from the front for many years. Yeah. >> A couple buildings tore down next to that with then a city improved >> parking ramp. Yes. >> Or structure I guess it was. Which then meant for many years just held snow. um and maybe a few street dances, [laughter] >> but you know, modern day someone wants to come in there, they have a vision to do what's there today, which is two apartment buildings, >> fantastic apartment buildings, >> but you're on the front end of that. You've and you've seen all that. You've seen the abstracts. Yes. Talk about that. >> So, that project was so challenging because it had it was so many different lots. First of all, it it's not like it was just a parking ramp lot, right? >> It had never been like platted. And so it was all these tiny well it would have been plotted 100 years ago but it was these tiny little lots or portions of them and there were vacations of streets in them or sometimes there were streets that had not been vacated in them. And then we discovered that actually um the HUD had a a encumbrance on them accidentally. No >> because they were supposed to just encumber the city's highrises. The the two >> Oh yeah. >> I forget which one is is adjacent to it. John, the John Carroll building, but they creeped into our lots and trying to convince the government that they overstepped on a different lot was that took a year and a half. >> Yeah. >> To get them to release that. >> Yeah. >> Um so I mean that's just one aspect of the title part of it and then vacating not vacating streets and trying to create the financing for this wonderful developer that wanted to do these great projects. Um Ryan and Garcia was amazing in that role. He was just the perfect fit at the right time. Yeah. >> To put that together and to he had the right personality to keep all the parties at the table because >> it so many times developers will get too frustrated and walk away. >> Right. >> It's just too hard. >> Yeah. >> And and he kept them there and then we just kept trying to, you know, pivot every time we ran into a new hurdle. We're going to get over it. Yeah. And so it was unbelievably satisfying to see that finally finish. >> Yeah. >> And then to watch the construction. And I I know that the city put up a uh a camera. A I forget um it was probably uh the IT director, but somebody said, "Let's just put up a camera and watch the demolition and watch the construction." I used to check that camera like at least once a week just to see what was going on. >> Yeah. Well, I asked for a can we do a should we do a time lapse? Can we do a time lapse? And Ian said, "Well, let's just put a camera up there and run on the YouTube channel and anybody can check in." >> South St. Paul cam, which Yeah, that's fun stuff. Progress. We're making progress. >> Yes. >> You've seen the council members come and go. >> You've seen um some that I'm sure you've, >> you know, shed a tear when they retired and and some you were like, "Oo, hey, good good luck with to that to you." Uh but um what what would you say for anybody interested in public service? You know, what what kind of the things that they should, you know, have in check, >> right? So, you know, people think that it's a certain way and we do a certain thing and we get to once I'm there, I get to do something, right? >> Or I'm in charge or >> So, what would you say to anybody that's, you know, thinking about getting into municipal government? um either it's in office or you know again maybe a job but >> yeah I think um >> more more about the elected >> right first of all you're one of seven so you don't make any decisions on your own and only time decisions can be made is when you're all in the room >> so I think that's a key thing to to recognize is that you can't go out in public and say I'll make that happen >> uh I'll see what I can do >> u because you're one of seven >> you have an [clears throat] opinion about something but so do six other people at DAS. So that is like challenge number one is that you have to realize you are you don't have 100% of the vote on anything, >> right? >> And number two is the most successful elected officials I've seen truly have their community as a whole to protect, to provide, to do the right thing for as opposed to a I want to build a new sports stone. Mhm. >> I want to fix this park. You're a oneisssue runner. >> Mhm. >> Um that's going to be quick and you're done. Uh because you you don't care about anything else. >> Yeah. >> Um you have to have a more global sense of responsibility to your community. Truly believe in your community, not just I want this >> or I see a problem with this. >> Can't be a one-stop shop. It it needs to be a bigger goal. Um, and and I shouldn't say this out loud, but more than any other city that I represent, the representatives of South St. Paul truly love their community. You're running for the right reasons. You're here because you want to see your community just be a shining star. And I admire that. I respect that. It makes it easy to work with you. >> Yeah, >> it really does. The more challenging people are the ones who just want to get their one thing done. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. You know, and and that pointing out that those they're simple they're simple things. >> Mhm. >> Right. You're and one of those things you're putting on hold your life. You're or putting your family or yourself in that light. So, you have to be prepared for that. But also, you said it at the end there that it's about the community as a whole, not just the one issue. So you have to put your your personal opinion and your personal desires to the side for many of them. Some overlap and we all were that's that's and that works, right? >> Yep. >> But there's other times that you're actually voting against yourself because it's for the good of the of the the whole >> or because I tell you you have to, [laughter] >> right? >> Yeah. I mean, you have rules. >> There is that. There's that, too. I don't want to I don't want to vote for this. Well, >> you know, you have to, >> right? or you know you're subject us to something else, >> right? I I um when I do train planning commissions and councils again on the rules that they have to follow, one thing I start with is in my examples I have uh because I use a lot of stories. >> Um I hate pawn shops and I hate pylon signs. I just do. I just find them kind of icky and they're annoying and um >> but I have to put that aside if we allow them. >> Mhm. >> Right. So that doesn't matter how I feel about them, >> right? >> It's whether or not we allow them, >> right? >> You know, I may not like billboards. I might find them, you know, distracting and and annoying, but if we allow them, then we will have a billboard, right? So, I put your personal check your opinions at the door. Um, unless there's enough room for you to have an opinion, but if we have rules, we have to follow the rules. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's uh it's interesting because we all seven of us >> Mhm. >> have we have opinions. Some of us agree on things at all time, half the time, some of the time. >> Yeah. >> But sometimes I don't even have an opinion and someone else does and we spend a lot of effort discussing an opinion of it where it's good to do that, have that exercise and have that ability with the electeds. At the end of the day, it's not your opinion that is what we should be >> making an ordinance on supporting or you know pursuing. >> Um and it gets there's some there are what do you call those uh gray areas right where >> you know people talk about eminent domain >> and all of those oh they're just going to take it anyways and there's so much back to it that it's not that simple. Right. >> Right. And you hear at the front of those conversations a lot with either >> electeds, >> staff or the public who have that question or pushing back to wonder why or how can this be or you know I was never told, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> Which is another thing that I think, >> right? And you're never going to win that argument. We we put out as much notice as we can about things. Um, we can't tell all the people all the things because I can't reach everybody in the way that they receive communication. I mean, you can put things on the website, but not everybody's going to check the website. >> You can publish in the paper, but who reads the fine print, >> right? >> You know, we can post at the library, but you don't go to the library. So, I mean, there's only so many things we Yeah. There's stuff that's done, but >> right whether >> but you're not necessarily going to reach all the people in their home. >> Yeah. >> All you can do is try. >> Yeah. And so back to electeds, you you work with them in other cities, you work with them here and flattering of you to talk about ours, but as we as you talk about encouraging people to do that and keep those things, would you I mean, is it rewarding? Do you see the reward with with electeds from your seat for people encouraging people to run for office? >> Do I think it's encourage am I encouraged and satisfied in what I do? Is that what you're asking? No, I'm asking if you if you uh would encourage people public to to get into this realm >> if they have the time. If they have the time, I think it is a disruption to your life and that's something they may not be fully anticipating thinking they can separate it from their personal life. You can't. Um I've seen it because I've been called by electeds on Saturdays >> uh saying, "Hey, this just happened. What do I do?" Um, so it will invade your personal life and so your family needs to support it and you need to have the time to devote to it. So my caution would be is even if you have the passion for your community, if you don't have the time, it will it'll eat you up. It'll eat you alive. >> And so it it wouldn't be worth it until you're ready. you know, when you do, you know, I found um I I was the city attorney for about I was trying to remember 10 or 15 years and then I stepped away for about five because my family was at that like critical stage of the the kids kind of needed mom around a little bit more and me giving them two nights a week or two nights a month back at home was meaningful, >> you know. So, I was able to give that time back to them because that's the other thing is it's a lot of night meetings. which is your family time. So again, if your family's supportive of it and wants to kick you out of the house, great. But if if they need you and you need to be there, then you need to really think about your priorities. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good counsel, Corey. You always give good counsel. [laughter] >> I try. >> Yeah. I mean, your firm has always given good counsel to the city and and we've been good partners uh ebbing and flowing throughout all those years. You know, it'd be fun to see if you have old documents and things, you know, that the old South St. Paul projects, you know, that to me that history of the that relationship is pretty cool, >> you know, and there's I bet you there are documents way back there. >> Pretty sure my grandma's signatures on a couple of them, you know, from when she was the city clerk back >> Oh, probably >> back in the day. Uh, not clerk, I'm sorry. She was the uh finance director. So, um, as we wrap up our conversations in South St. Paul, you know, we've talked about a lot of stuff. You shared a lot. So, thank you. But is there anything that you want to talk about or share back with us about uh the things that you do or the things the interactions that you have here, city of South St. Paul that maybe people don't know they have access to or you know >> um I think I would ask the public and the residents to just give a little bit more grace to the council and to staff and even to my office. Um it it sometimes feels like everybody is is accusing um the council of hiding information or not saying things and they should be more um transparent, right? That's a favorite word. we need to be more transparent. Um that there might be a reason why we can't fully disclose or we need to redact or we can't share information about things. Um my guess is there probably is or you would be be telling people. And so I would just like to, you know, help the public understand there's a lot of rules. >> Yeah. >> You know, that we have to follow and navigate. And it's not just rules. It's state law that we didn't write. Right. >> If I could rewrite the open meeting law, I would I would make it a lot easier for you to talk to each other. Uh but no, the council can't have a quorum present and talk about anything other than at the at a meeting at a regular or special meeting that's posted and noticed. >> U so you're not having conversations in the back room. And I wish I wish the public would maybe give a little bit more um you know understanding in that that you are really trying to play within the rules. Uh, and I'm trying to to guide you through them, but it's not always easy and it doesn't always feel awesome, >> right? It you're right about that. And the the desire of people to have it instantly, you know, I like to say this isn't Columbbo, right? The stuff doesn't get solved in 40 minutes, right, in an episode. The this is real life and things take time and people have their own personal rights. So, us discussing it or us bringing it forward or uh we've been there where somebody wanted me to watch something and and to share some information and I said, "No, I'm not. It's I'm one of seven. We're all watching it. If if I'm watching it, we're all watching it >> because I I don't want to I don't want to do that, right? And and I want to give you the grace to have to not do this in a public setting because if you make me do it, we all have to do it." and it has to be public, >> right? And so those those times are um >> when we do need the grace >> and and I think that that's a very good a very good point for us to maybe end our conversation on because you know you have a tough job >> and it's multiaceted. There's many plates spinning and you you have to get it right and sometimes if if you don't get it right you know you suffer, we suffer, the public suffers. So, we've got a really good track record of keeping it right in that middle space where that there's not too many bigs, bumps or es and flows where we're really putting us out there. And so, you know, that's your leadership and your support of our staff and helping them make the right call on the front end, giving them the authority, the the understanding of their roles and responsibilities so that that stuff can get handled faster, more diplomatic, you know, and with that grace that you're talking about. >> So, thanks. This is Corey Land. She's uh with us on Conversations in South St. Paul. Thank you so much. >> You're welcome. Thank you for having me.