". Good Evening And Welcome To This January 12Th Meeting Of The Bloomington Planning Commission. The Planning Commission Advises The City Council On Development Proposals, Development Standards, Long Range Planning And Transportation Issues. The Planning Commission Is Comprised Of Seven Volunteer Residents Of The City Bloomington. We Have Four Here This Evening So We Do Have A Quorum As We Begin This Evening I'Ll Ask Everyone In The Chambers To Please Rise For Pledge Of Allegiance. I Pledge Allegiance To The Flag Of The Uted States Of Arica And Tohe Republic For Which It Stands One Nation Under God In With Liberty And Justice For All. This Evening We Have Five Items On Our Agenda And Some The Planning Commission Will Make The Final Decision While On Other Items Sometimes The City Council Makes The Final Decision. We Have Two Public Hearings Tonight. The Public Is Encouraged To Provide Testimony At Public Hearings. You Can Do That Here At City Hall Or You Can Also Do That Virtually. Mr.. Marker Gary, Could You Provide Some Additional Information On Testimony? Sure, Captain. Thank You. We Have Two Public Hearings This Evening And You Can Testify Here In The Chambers Or If You'Re Watching From Home Call In To Testify. What You Would Do Is Call The Number The Screen And Then Enter In The Access Code And Then You'Ll Be Able To To Speak To The Items Tonight And We Will Have This Number On The Screen During The Various Public Hearings Tonight. Very Well. Thank You. Item Number One This Evening Is From Health Sciences University For A Privately Initiated Code Amendment. Ms. O'Day, You Have The Staff Report. >> I Do Thank You Chair And Commissioners. I Am One Is For A Privately Initiated Code Amendment To Create To Use Definitions And Allow Them As Permitted Uses And Our One Zoning District A Little Bit About The Applicant Northwest Health Sciences University Is Located At 2501 West 84Th Street. It'S A Private University Focusing On Alternative Health Care Education And They Offer Programs Such As Chiropractic Massage Therapy, Chinese Medicine Etc. The Total Campus Size Is 264,739 Square Feet. And Then As A Note I Just Want To Mention That The Medical Office And The Retail Us Already Exist Today On Campus . >> I Just Want To Highlight The City Code Definition Accessory Use Because It Is Important In This Application I Highlighted Two Important Components Of The Definition. The First Is That The Accessory Use Cannot Exceed 10% Of The Principal Floor Area And The Second Is That The Accessory Use Cannot Attract Customers Independently Of The Principal Use The Of This Accessory Use Limits The Medical Office Retail Uses Therefore The Applicant Is Proposing To Create Two New Use Definitions . >> The First Is For A Retail Complementary To A College University And I'Ll Read The Definition Before You It Says Complementary Retail Sales Use Is Affiliated With A College Or University That Do Not Exceed 5% Of The Total Floor Area Of The Building In Which They Are Located Or 5000 Square Feet In Floor Whichever Is Less The Retail Already Exists As I Said And They Are Not Intending To Expand The Area The Store Size Is 4300 Square Feet Which Is Point 6% Of The Total Campus Area The Size Complies With Their Proposed Definition And The Store They Would Primarily Sell Wellness Related Products Such As Vitamin Supplements, Wellness Gifts Etc. And Then For The Benefit Of The Public Amendment Would Not Allow For A Standalone Retail Use An R-1 So This Retl Must Be Compmentary To Associated Or Associated To A College University Onsite. >> They Would Likely Have An Exterior Sign So A Sign Permit Is Required To Verify A Code Of Compliance And Then The Second Definition Relates To Medical. As Mentioned Earlier Excelsior Uses Are Limited To 10% Of The Total Floor Area And Upon Review Of Their Floor Plans The Medical Office Or Their Public Clinics They Excd 10% Of Theotal Floor Area So They Currently Have Separate Clinics Totaling A Combined Area Of 29,577 Square Feet Which Comes A Total Of 11% Of The Total Campuses. Again Similar To The Other Definition The Medical Office Must Be Associated A College Or University And Then This Would Add Those Two Uses To Our Use Table In Our City Code . So You Can See There That I'Ve Added Them As Permitted And Our Use Table In Our One And Then Lastly We Did Receive A Piece Of The Correspondence Which I Provided To You In An Email And That Should Be Before You At Your Seats And Then The Applicant Is In Attendance Tonight Should There Be Questions And Then I Provided The Motion And We Are Recommending Approval. Thank You Mr. De Kushner'S Questions For Staff Commissioner Goltzman Thank You Chair One Question That I Had Was Are There Other And Universities Within The City Of Bloomington That Could Potentially Utilize This Change In Conditional Use? >> Yeah. Thank You Chair Commissioner Goldman For Asking That Meant To Touch On That During My Presentation So I'M Glad You Asked So We'Ll Come To That Come To Mind At The Top Of My Head Are Norman Dale College And Bethany Bethany College Those Are The Two That Come To My Mind That Our Existing Colleges And Universities In Bloomington And They Could They Could Have Businesses As Well As As Long As They Need Be The Size Go Ahead And Thank You As A Follow Up How About Technical Type Training? So Thinking About An Example Would Be I Think There'S A Beauty School On Lyndale And Now 96Th Street Would That Not Would That Be All Under The College And University Or Is That A Different Type Of Use? >> Chair Gottesman And Glen Correct Me If I'M Wrong But I Think That More Relates To An Instructional Center Which Is A Separate Leed Defined Center City Code So They Wouldn'T Be Able To Have A Medical Office Or They Wouldn'T Fall Under This Proposed Amendment. >> Okay. Thank You Very Much. Other Questions For Staff. All Right. It'S Our Understanding The Applicant Is Here. Would You Like To Speak To The Commission If You Would Please Step Forward Let Know If There'S Anything We'Ve Missed Or You Want Us To Know If You Could State Name Would Be Great And After You'Re Finished We Have A Sign In Sheet There For You As Well . John Scott, Can You Hear Me? I Think We Can. It'S Not Lit Up So Yeah. Okay. Sounds Good. Mike Tennyson I The Vice President For Clinics And Retail Services At Northwestern So Thank You Very Much For Having Us Here Today And I'M Joined By Our President And Ceo Deborah Bush Way You Know I Just Wanted To Say Thank You For The Opportunity To Be Here. Just A Couple Of Points Of Clarity Just Just For The Group That The Retail Store Is It'S It'S Kind Of Coexist As A Bookstore As Well, Right? So We Do Sell A Lot Of Textbooks Out Of The Store. It'S Services, Our Local Community And On Campus We Have A Lot Of Alumni That Use The Store Though That It'S Easy For Them To Buy Their From Our Store Versus Housing A Lot Of Supplements In Their Actual Clinics And So Which Is Why You Know We'Ve Obviously Been Know Selling To To Our Alumni The Other Piece Of Of Clary Just Wanted To Point Out Too Is On The Clinics There'S Actually Four Clinics But One Clinic Is Like Kind Of Within A Clinic But The Clinics Serve A Variety Of Different Populations. Some Of The Clinics Actually Are Serving Internal Communities So They'Re Not Actually Serving The External Market And Of Them Are Serving Serving The External Market. So I Just Wanted To Make That A Point Of Clarity For People And In Case You'Re Wondering About Why We Have So Many Different Services And Offerings And So And Then One Point Of Clarity I Just Wanted Make Sure If You Did Read Through The The Document That Came From The Conceed Tizen About The Case You Know If You Go On To Target'S Actual Website, Their Average Store Size Is About 130,000 Square Feet And About 40,000 Square Feet. So To Say A Point Of Kind Of Reference Is It Really I'M Sure You'Ve All Been A Target Before. I Do See A Point Of Reference If You Haven'T Been On Our Campus So Questions Questions For The Applicant Seeing And Thank You. Thank You. Okay. This Is A Public Hearing And I Will Open That Public Hearing Now Is There Anyon In The Chambers Whoould Like To Speak On This Item? I Don'T See Anyone Coming Forward. Mr. Market Guard Do We Have Anyone Online Who Would Like To Speak To This Item Which Are In We Have Nobody Online Very Well Look For Emotions Closed The Public Hearing So Moved Second We Have A Motion In A Second To Close The Public Hearing Any Discussion All Those In Favor Say I I Opposed Motion Passes We Will Move On To Discussion . >> Mr. Holtzman Thanks Chair Think This Application Is Pretty Straightforward And Pretty Focused On A Very Specific Need. I See. You Know Obviously Health And Well-Being Is Is Important For The Community And It'S Great That We Have These Resources Available To Our Residents It'S A Large Campus And I Think They Are, You Know, Trying To Expand Their Offerings To Clients. I Think That The Facility Has Enough Space And Size Of Parking Looks Fine Don'T I Don'T Anticipate Lots Of Traffic So In In All I Think I'Ll Be Very Supportive Of The Application As It Stands In Front Us. >> Thank You Commissioner Grossman For Their Comments. Commissioner Albrecht Thank You Chair. I Just Want To Echo Commissioner Goltzman Remarks Regarding This Application Again Fairly Straightforward Seems As Though This Is Both A Win For The City Of Bloomington And A Win For The Specific University. So I Am In Support Of Very Well Further Comments Or I'D Look For A Motion. Mr. Mcgovern I Also Echo The Three And That It Gives The Opportunity For Northwestern To Expand And Reach Out To Others That Do Need This Type Of Service. Commissioner Grossman, If I May Make Mention Go Ahead In Case People 2022-240I Moved To Recommend Approval Of A Privately Initiated Code Amendment Creating He Use Definition For College University Complimentary Retail And College University Medical Office And Adding The Use As Permitted As A Permitted Use In The R-1 Zoning District Thereby Thereby Amending City Code Chapters 19 And 21/2 We Have A Motion And A Second To Recommend Approval Of A Privately Initiated City Amendment. Any Further Discussion? Al Those In Favor Say I. I Opposed The Motion Passes For Zero And We'Ll Move On To The City Council At Their February 6Th Meeting. Thank You Very Much For Your With That We Will Move On To Item Number Two. The City Of Bloomington Is The Applicant. It Is For A City Code Amendment To Create A Transitional Industrial Zoning District And Also Rezoning A Number Of Parcels. I Believe The Number Is 28. Mr. Wilson Has Our Staff This Evening. It'S Second Apologies Mr. Wils If You Have Any Jokes While We'Re Getting That Um We Would Entertain That Trying To Think Of Two Characters That Walked Into A Bar. Um, No, I Apologize, Mike. We A Patient Group Take Your Time. Computer Decided Freeze Up On Me I Can'T Even Yeah I Can Charge From Here That Might Be And Then Just Say Advanced Ladies As Needed Yeah Certainly It'S It'S Just Second Get Okay Thank You Chair Members Of The Planning Commission Or Commissioners Just There You Go Okay So The Proposal Before You Tonight Is A New Zoning District It'S Actually Split Up Into Two Parts. Next Slide The First Part Is To Amend The Zoning Code Specifically Chapters 19 And 21 To Establish The Two District To Include References And To Describe Its Features And Standards. The Part Of The Proposal Is To Rezone 28 Lots Along The East Side Of Lyndale South Between 86Th And 92Nd Streets From General Industry That'S The I3 District To This New Zoning District Transitional Industrial Also The Ty District. You'Ll See At The Bottom Ofhat Some Asterks That You Know Inform You That The Proposal Will Require Amendments To The 2040 Comp Plan And Being Considered At The February Six City Council Meeting. So Just To Provide Some Background And The Implications Of The Proposal. So Next Slide Employee Okay. Um, Yeah, So This Is A Snapshot Of The Timeline The Project Kicd Off From Its September That'S When We Met Together As A Group And Decided On Level Of Consultation With The Residents And We Began You Know With That In Mind Creating An Outreach And Engagement Plan That We Implemented In Early October That Meant Door To Door You Know Door Knocking On All Businesses Within The Area That'S Proposed To Be Zoned To Explain The Project And To To Talk The Business Owners Or Whoever They'Re At The Time October 27Th If You Remember There Was A Study Where We Were We Had A Discussion About The The Draft Version Of The This New Zoning District And The Proposal To Rezone Those 28Ots I Think At That Time Actually Was 25 And And As I'Ll Get Into It That Was Expanded The Next Meeting Was A Session The City Council On November 14Th There Were Some Diussion Items Tt Come Out It Came Out Of That And I'Ll Get Into That In A Little Bit More. Um, Today We We Have A Public Hearing Just To Hear About The Land Use Zoning District And The Rezoning And Then We'Ll Be Bringing This And Assuming Everything Goes Well Tonight Will Bring The City Council On February 6Th For Adoption So I Showed You That That Timeline And It Started Mid-September Although We Could Think Of It Actually Going Back To Of 2021 That'S When The Lyndale Avenue Subdivision Plan Was Adopted And A Project That Actually An Action That Came Out Of That Project Or Yeah, That That Planning Process Was To Reconsider The Zoning Around 86Th Street Because It Was Identified As A Node Within The Plan And So This Was An Outgrowth Of That Because It Recognized That There Was A Lot Of Industrial Properties That Might Compromise Some Of The Redevelopment That Was Discussed In The Plan And Planned For So Um Next Slide. So With That In Mind We We Actually Relied A Lot On That Plan Because You Know There Was A Good Amount Engagement That Came Out Of It And And There Was A Lot Of Good Information So It Already Formed A Good Basis Whicho Proceed Ands I Said We We Selected As The Appropriate Participation Level And With We Started Engaging Residents As I Said We Went Door To Door To All The Businesses Within The Area. It'S Proposed To Be Resolved And To Explain The Project We Also Did Direct Mailings To All The To All Those Businesses And Oh And I Should Also Mention Did Reach Out To Those Properties That Immediately But The About The Area So We Did Include A Lot A Lot Of A Lot Properties Outside Of The Zoned Area Proposed To Be A Resort Area And So There Were A Couple Instances Of Direct Mailings There Was That That Where We Went Door To Door We Actually Handed Out Material To Explain The Project We Actually And Then We Did A Mailing To Those Properties Just To Follow Up To Actually Advertise The Open Houses That Were Shown Them The Following Week And Then There'S The Public Hearing. So We Have Made Efforts To Engage The Residents That Own Property Within The Area. Next Slide. So At That Study Session Late October October 27Th As I Mentioned The O Item Or One Big Item That Came Out Of That Discussion Was Consideration Of What Properties Are Included Within This New District. There Was An Acknowledgment Of Some Properties At 86Th And Lyndale That Seemed Suitable Also Be Included And So That Was The Total Of Three Properties They Were They Were All Owned By They'Re All The Same Owner And So They Were Brought In That Raised The Lot And The Amount Of Lots From 25 To 28 And So That Was The Big Item Came Out Of There. Otherwise I Think There Was A General Consensus Or There Was Staff'S Interpretation Was General Consensus That It Was A Good Idea To Proceed Drafting The The The Zoning District At The November 14Th City Council A City Council Study Session In Addition To Discussing The The New Zoning District And The Proposed Rezoning There Was A Resolution That Was Adopted That Was To Initiate The Rezoning Process And Then On Top Of That There Were Some Other Discussion Items That Were Brought Up The Council Had Concerns About Or They Just Had Discussions Relating To The Relationship Between Residential And Pastoral Uses Within This New Zoning District Because Are As I'Ll Get Into A Moment We Are Proposing To Add Residential To The Area As You Know As An Allowed Use Or Conditional Use I Should Say There Was Also Discussion Around The District'S Impacts On The Existing Industrial The Area And Then There Was Also Acknowledgment Of The Pros And Cons Of The Rezoning Approach That We'Re Proposing Which Is Rezoning All 28 Lots As Opposed To Going Lot By Lot. So Those Were Some Items That Were Discussed At That Meeting . Next Slide And Concerning That Discussion About The You Know, The Relationship Between Industrial And It'S There There'S Already Evidence I Mean There'S There'S Already Residential Within The Area That'S Pretty Close By That'S Across The Street In . Lyndale It'S Not Exactly Within Or It'S Not In Within The Proposed Area To Be Rezoned But There And There'S Even Newer Residential Development Just South Of It There'S Lyndale Flats And Then What Was Approved Oxbow Heights And Then Just A Little Bit South Of That There Was Other Residential Developments And Even North Kitty Corner From The Devenish Site At 86Th And Lyndale And Then Just A Little Bit Further North. So There Is Already Residential Encroaching Upon This Area And So It Just It It Lends Itself To That There'S A Demand That We Seem To Be Witnessing Next Time So With The Introduction Of This New Zoning District There Is A Variety Of Amendments To The Zoning Code . There'S Chapter 19. There'S Just Some Simple References That Need To Be Inserted To Establish That High District Within That Particular Chapter In Chapter 21 Division Ii Tt'S Where We Actually The The New District The Transitional Industrial District. We Also Get Into District Specific And Some Of Those Standards You Might Be Familiar With Because They Borrowed From Other Zoning Districts That'S Already Been Established And All Of This Is In Effort To Implement The The Retrofit Plan In Creating A Pedestrian Area And That Involves Certain Sites Standards And Building Design Standards Division Age Which Is The Uses We Had To You Know We We Borrowed Heavily Or We We Based The Useless Based On The I3 District And Then Just With Some Slight Permutations Adding Districts Modifying Some Or Adding Adding Uses Modifying Some Uses And And Removing Some We Said Just To Distinguish The Transitional Industrial District And The Assemblage Of Uses Really Addresses The Compatibility Between Any Sort Of Differences Might B We Get Into You Know Along In This Chart There'S Other Site Design Standards Building Design Standards So Structure Placement Intensity That We Had To Address Within Chapter 21 And Then You Know The, Final Amendment To The Zoning Map To Rezone Those 28 Lots From I3 To Transitional Industrial Excellent. Speaking A Little Bit Further On The Use Tables That I Mentioned I Already Mentioned That We Are Talking We'Re Proposing To Introduce Residential But In Limited Forms Not Single Residential That'S Not Appropriate For This Area. So Multifamily Residential Is The Is The Intended The Intention Behind That Particular Use For This District. We'Re Also Proposing Retail, Indoor Recreation And Entertainment Been A Burgeoning Interest In That Type Of E And Then Cultural Amenities, Libraries And Whatnot Museums With What We'Re Proposing We'Re Not Creating Nonconformity So Any Sort Of Use That That Is Inappropriate For It For The I3 Is Is Being Carried Over For The Transitional Industrial That Includes Self-Storage And I Believe There'S One Single Family Home Within The Area That We'Re Speaking About Rezoning So That Those Those Will Remain Conformity With The Establishment Of This New District And We Took Efforts Also To All Current Uses Some Of The Established Uses Those That Have Been Established To The Adoption Date. So If It Were To Be Adopted On February Six And There Was A Use That Was Established Prior To Then They Could Continue As A Legal Nonconforming Use That'S Specific Uses If You'Ll Notice In The In The In The Use Table That Came In The Packet And We Also Prohibit Additional Sites With Uses That Are Not In Alignment With The Retro Retrofit Plan Vision. Those Are More Auto Intense Uses Some Of Those Other Uses That Are More Intense And Have A Bigger Impacts That Might Affect The Implementation Of The Transitional Industrial District. So Next Slide . Oh, There We Go. Okay. So Is A Table Just Describing Some Of The Development Intensity Standards Site Characteristics. It Compares The Current I3 District With The B4 District As I Mentioned Previously We Borrowed A Lot Of Standards From Already Established Districts And This Just Lays Out The Comparison Of How You Know Which Standards We We Borrowed And How We Slightly Modify Them To Fit Within The Transitional Industrial District We'Re Proposing To Double Fsr That Should Be Noted So Again That'S To Fulfill The The Vision Of The Plan Which Sees A More Type Of Development Along Lyndale So Upping The Fha Goes Towards That Um Actually Well Yeah Next Slide And On This Slide We It'S Just A Comparison Of The Setbacks Also Between The I3 District And Before. So Again You See That We Are Borrowing Some Of Those Setbacks From The Before. One Of The Recommendations That Came Out Of The Retrofit Plan Was To Rezone A Lot Of Properties Along Lyndale To Before So It'S Just To Introduce That Compatibility Between The Ty District And What Will Eventually Be Be The B4 District In Surrounding Lots Along Lyndale Avenue And It Should Also Be So That Last Column Abutting Lots That Are Used In Residential There Is A Distance Requirement Beten Those Nonresidential Residential Uses To Proposed Residential So Residential Were To Be Proposed It Would Have To Satisfy These Distance Requirements. Next Slide And This Is Merely To Illustrate The Building Character That Could Be Materialized Along Lyndale It Was Used In The October 27Th Presentation. I Don'T Believe Buildings Are Going To Be That High But Nonetheless You Can See That Some Of The Features We'Re Proposing Are To Restrict Parking To The Side Or Rear And Or Rear Where We'Re Communicating That Buildings Can Be Closer To The Street. So To Create A More Intimate Experience Between Pedestrians And The Ground Floor And Just Buildings In General. So Again Creating A More Pedestrian Friendly Something That Caters To The Safety And Comfort And Comfort Of Pedestrians And We'Re Also Requiring Ground Floor Transparency And Activation A Little Bit More Detail On The Activation Requirements Within The Use List We Are Allowing Warehousing Within The Transitional Industrial District. However Those Come With Requirements That 50% Of The Linear Length Of Those Ground Floors Be Active Customer Interaction Lobby Or Retail Front End Retail To Some Those Rehousing Uses If There Were To Be Established After The Adoption The A District So That'S What'S Meant By Activate And And Then Transparency Kind Of Speaks For Itself Where We'Ll Be Requiring Some Of That Transparency Along The Ground Floor Again To Create A More Active Pedestrian Environment And An Excellent So Getting To The Rezoning Proposal As I Mentioned It'S 28 Lots It'S Proposed Go From A Three To Transitional Industrial There'S Alrea A Mix Of Industrl Automotiv Warehouse Office And Retail. We Want To You Know, It'S A It'S A Eclectic Mix Of Uses And That'S Something That In The Within The District Itself We Wanted To Encourage And Maintain. So You'Ll See That In List Of Uses Some Of The Surrounding Uses Speak To The Compatibility Rezoning To The Ty District. As You'Ll See There Is Already Retail And Industrial The North There'S Commercial To The South Easts Just Pretty Much All Industrial And Then Some Multi-Family Residential And Commercial To The To The West So It Kind Of Fits The Proposed Rezoning Again Speaks To The Compatibility Between Those Uses. Next Slide And It'S Also Worth Mentioning That There This Is Also In Line With The Adopted 2040 Comprehensive Plan Within That Document There Was Discussion Of Industrial Redevelopment Strategy That Came From Industrial Obsolescence Study That Staff Carried Out I Believe In 2019 And They'Re From That Was The Coding Of Industrial Lots Lots That Are Guided Industrial Coded Are Categorized As Either Protected And There Provide The Definition Of What Protected Means It'S Existing Existing Industrial That Are Still Viable. They Should Remain Zoned For Industrial And Rezoning Should Be Avoided And The Other Catery Is Transitione Industrial Areas And Those Include Those Have Already An Existing Mix Of Uses So It'S Not Strict Industrial And Zoning Is Possibility Or Rezoning Zoning Changes Are A Possibility If It'S A Market Driven Plan And I Think That Can Mean That That Speaks To The Retrofit Plan And It'S Also Depends On The Proposed Land Use Relationship Ups To The Surrounding And Use And Consistency With The Comprehensive Pla Which I'Ve Spoken About Previously. Next Slide And So These This Proposed Rezoning Again Relates To That 86Th Street Node The The No Is Admittedly A Little Bit Shorter Than Meaning It Doesn'T Extend As Far South As What We'Re Proposing. Those Are All I3 Properties And Rezoning To Transitional Industrial Will Again Create That Compatibility Between Other Zoning Districts Along Lyndale In Order To Implement The Retrofit Plan. So This Is All Coming Out Of That Previous Planning Adopted In 2021. Excellent. So Before You Are Some Motions To Approve The Of Establishing The Ty District And I'M Sorry Recommending Approval I'M Sorry Recommending Approval Of The Ty District And Recommending Approval The Rezoning And I Think With That I Can Take Any Questions You Have. Yeah. Thank You, Mr. Morales. And We Will Move On To Questions And I'Ll Get Us Started Here In One Of Your Slides You Had The Sort Of Characteristics Comparison Of The New I.T Zone Versus Some Of The Similar Zones We Looked At Specifically Slide Here The Minimum Floor Area Ratio T.I We Appear To Not Be Setting One Whereas And Before There'S A 0.2 Minimum Floor Area Ratio, Is There A Consideration Of Putting Nimum Floor Areaatio For To Chair Cooked In The The Discussion Around Floor Area Did Primarily Focus On The Maximum Floor Area We We Carried Over That The Same Consideration For The Minimum Floor Here From The Existing A3 District So Didn'T It Wasn'T It'S Not A One For One Copy From From The B4 District But We Assumed There Would Nonetheless Be There Would Be Enough Blding Area To Satisf It And Assumed That The The Market Again It Consistent With Also Building Standards We'Re Proposing Would Satisfy Even Minimum Floor Area Ratio That You'D Find In Before That Was I Think Believe There I Believe That Was Some Of The Thinking Went On And Where We Were Establishing The Standards For The Minimum Floor Area Ratio Do You Have Concerns That Any Development Could Come In There Would Be Less Than 0.2 Or Is There Enough Other Things Happening Here Where That'S That'S Unlikely? I Think The Commission Chair Cooked And I Think The The Concern Again Is Alleviated By The Design Standards We'Re Proposing We Have Other Minimum Standards Where They Have To Satisfy. I Can'T Do The Math In My Head On The Spot In Order To To To Not Exceed Point Two I'M Not Sure What The Minimum Building Area Would Be But If This Floor Area Shows Mainly Speaking To Bulge So We Have Other Standards That Require For Instance We Have Building Floor Area That You Know We Assume That Anyone Coming Into The District Would Would Develop Into The Site Development But That'S Something We Can Certainly Reconsider Is In As We'Re Revising The You Know District Standards Based On Your Feedback Is Considering A Minimum Floor Area For A Ratio That Mimics The Before Strict Very Well Other Questions For Staff Commissioner Grossman. Thanks Chair If You Would Mind Up The Next Slide I Had A Question About Setbacks. So We Currently Have A Minimum Of Ten Feet Along The Public Street But. The Maximum Is 40. Do You Have Any Concerns About The 40 Saying That That'S Quite A Large From The Street What What Came From Or Where Did That 40 Come From And Maybe Could You Give Us Some Examples Of Where 39 And A Half Feet Would Be Appropriate ? Chair Cutting Commissioner The 14 That Was Taken The B4 District Wanting To Maintain That Compatibility From Other B4 Lots That Will Be Established Along Lyndale Avenue Within The Area So We Were Merely Just Bringing That Into This District We Limit The Area Of Parking So Much To The Rear It Can'T Be Established In Front Of The Building Between The Building And The Street So That Could Be Either Greenspace That Could Be Passive It Could Be I Guess Activated Or Active Space If It'S For Instance Fronting Or Retailer Rest Restaurant Establishment. That'S Where That Conversation Came In . I Wasn'T Around When The Before District Was Established So I Don'T Know Intimately What Was A Conversation That Fed Into The Maximum Setback Of 40 Feet. I'D Have To Defer To The Planning Manager In That Mr. Burks Record And The Commissioner And Goltzman At Thinking About The B4 District We'Ve Seen Quite A Lot Developments In V4 Over The Years. We Had Any That Have Actually Utilized That For 40 Feet As Mr. Ambler Ellison Said You Cannot Have Parking In That Area So Really The Only Viable Use Would Be You Know Outdoor Seating Patio Some Sort Of Large Landscape Area So Probably Be Surprising To See Development That Would Take Advantage Of That 40 Feet Could Happen But If If It Did Happen It Would Be Some Sort Of Very Large Outdoor Seating Area Most Likely. Okay Thank. You Mr. Miller Also As A Follow Up You Say There Can'T Be Parkingetween The Seet And The Building. Does Parking Include Driver House A Church Or Can It Be Being More Specific? Yeah It Does Include In The Drive Aisles And Parking So It Essentially All Automobiles Would Not Be Allowed Within That Area It Would. Mr. Burger Drove Down With One Exception That Would Be The Driveway Leading Into The Parking Lot And Would Be Allowed But Not Any Kind Of Circulation Drive Various Thank You Other Questions For Staff Actually A Chair Kicked In . Correct. And I Just Want To Be A Little Bit More Specific Adding On To The Planning Manager'S Comments. So We Are Really Focusing This District All As It Fronts Along Lyndale And Some Of The Other Cross Streets Across With That 86, 90Th, 90 Seconds. There Are Some Lots That Are Proposed Two Fronts That That Do Front On Harriet And So We Do Make Exceptions For Those Properties So In That Case They Wouldn'T Be Allowed To Have Dri Aisles And Parking In Between The Building In The Street On Those Lots. So I Just Want To Provide Even More Clarity Very Well Further Questions For Staff Seen On This A Public Hearing The City Of Bloomington Is The Applicant So. We Won'T Hear Again From Them But I Will See If There'S Anyone Online Who Would Wish To Speak To This Item Or Certainly Have Nobody Online. Thank You Mr. Mark Again. And There'S Nobody Here In The Council Chambers And I Would Note We Did Receive One Item Of Correspondence Which You Have Before You And That Correspondence Is In Favor Of The Rezoning Very Thank You For That Information. With That I Will Look For A Motion To Close The Public Hearing So Moved The Second We Have A Motion In The Second To Close The Public Hearing Any Discussion All Those In Favor Say I I Opposed The Motion Passes For Zero We Will Move On To Discussion Commissner Brecht. Thank You Chair I Appreciate This Coming Back So Quickly In Front Of The Planning Commission I Think It'S A Good Direction For The Lyndale Retrofit Plan Steps I Appreciate The Adding Of The Additional Lots On That 86Th Street And Harriet Corner. That'S A Good Addition And I Am In Support Of Moving Forward On This. Thank You Commissioner Albrecht Recall Commissioner Goltzman Thanks Chair. I Would Say In To Mr. Albrecht That I Also Am In Support I Also In Addition Would Like To Say I Like That We Didn'T Add Any Additional Unconformity It'S A Unique Piece Of This As Well As I Allow Right I Also I Also Like That We Are Making The The West Side Of Lyndale Consistent More Consistent With The East Side Of Of Lyndale I You Know Coming Into The Study Session In October I Didn'T Realize That The Sides Of The Streets Made A Difference On What Type Of Business Could Do And I Like That Now It'S It'S A Lot More Consistent And I Think It'S Going To Drive For A More Pleasant, Approachable Thoroughfare Through Our City. So Overall I Think That We'Ve Done A Great Job Here And Getting Our Feedback And Making It A Reality And I'M Excited. See What It Will Do For Actual Development Off Of The Lyndale Retrofit Plan. Thank You Commissioner Grossman Any Further Comments ? I'Ll Jump In As Well And Just Say I Like What'S Being Proposed Here. I Think It Was Well Done. I Would Definitely Like To Alsoay I Areciate The Public Outreach, The Very Intentional Public Outreach Of The Folks On Lyndale That Is Important And I'M Glad We Did That If. We Could Just Take A Second Peek At That Minimum Floor Area Ratio Thing. If You'Ve Looked At It And Are Intentional About That, I'M Fine With It If There'S No Concerns If That Was Maybe Something That You Know, One Quick Second Pass That To Make Sure That Staff Is Comfortable With It. I'M Fine With What Staff Wants To Proceed With There And I Think This Is Great. I Mean I'M Really Excited For The Future Of Lyndale I Think This An Importa Step In E Ght Direction For What We'Re Going To Do There And And Get Lyndale Is Our Main Street And Right Into The The 21St Century I Think Is Is Terrific So I'M In Support Of This And Will Look For A Motion. >> Commissioner Albrecht Thank You Chair In Case People Will 2022249I Move To Recommend Approval Of An Ordinance Amending 19 And 21 Establishing The Transition And Transition Industrial Zoning District And Modifying Multiple City Code Sections To Reference The T I Zoning District. Second We Have A Motion In A Second To Recommend Approval The T.I District Ordinance Any Further Discussion All Those In Favor Say I I Opposed That Motion Passed The Motion Passes For Zero If I May Commissioner Albrecht In Case People 2022-249I Move To Recommend Approval Of An Ordinance Amending City' Ficial Zoning Map To Rezone 28 Lots Along The East Side Allendale Avenue South 86Th And 92Nd Streets As Referenced In Table Three Of The Staff Report From General Industry Three Two Transitional Into Industrial Tie Second We Have A Motion In The Second To Recommend Approval Of An Ordinance Amending The City'S Official Map Any Further Discussion All Those In Of The Motion Say I Opped That That Motion Passes For Zero This Will Proceed To The City Council On February 6Th. Thank You Mr. Raymond Olsen We Will Then Move On To Item Number Three Again. The City Of Bloomington Is The Applicant. This Is Not A Public Hearing Rather A Study Item For The Planning Commission. Mr. Johnson You Have The Staff Report For The Signed Ordinance. Thank You Chairman Kirkton And Members The Planning Commission. Nice To See You This Evening. I Should Note That I Also With Me Assistant Cy Attorney Toschi He'S Going To Participate In The Presentation With Me And Talk About Some Legal Considerations As They Pertain To Signage. So Let Me Share My Screen Here Here And We'Ll Get Started. So Just A Quick Agenda Slide What We Plan To Talk About Here This Evening With Respect To Signage And The Sign Ordinance Will Talk Briefly About Some Of E Background And History About Our Existing Sign Ordinance. We'Ll Talk About What The Primary Goals Are That Staff In Order To Make This Project Successful. We'Ll Talk A Little Bit About Some Of The Engagement And Research That Staff Is Completing In Order To Try And Be Inclusive In Our Process But Also Get The Best Product And The Most Kind Of Modern And Effective Signage Provisions Attorney Task We'Ll Talk About The Legal Considerations Recent Case So Some Analysis Being Done On Our Existing Sign Ordinance And Then We'Ll Get Into Kind Of The More Interactive Part Of The Event This Evening We Actually Have Some Polling Equipment Going To See How It Works, Hopefully Throw You A Curve Ball And Use Some Clickers To Do A Little Bit Of A Polling Activity. Hopefully Works But We'Ll See. So What Is The Sign Ordinance? This Might Be Clear To Most Of You Or All You But Also For The Members Of The Public The City Code S A Dicated Article In Our Zoning Code That Deals With Everything Pertaining To Signage And Generally Speaking Sign Ordinances Regulate Expression They Provide Standards And Requirements For All Commercial And Noncommercial Speech That Take The Form Of Signs. Of Course Generally Speaking All Community Sign Ordinances Some Type Of Balance Between Allowing For More Or Less Expression While Also Balancing Public Safety And Esthetics. So When We Talk About Safety Certainly The Era Of You Know, Cell Phones There'S A Lot Of Discussion About Distracted Well Signs Really It Was Really The Original Of Distraction Distracted Driving In Terms Of Balancing Public Safety. You Know, Signs And Vision Triangles Can Present A Visual Obstruction That Can Present A Hazard. So That'S One Piece Of It. But That'S Not To Leave Out Also Community Esthetics. There'S Communities Around The Country That Have Taken A Much More Aggressive Approach To Limiting The Amount Of Signage That They Allow. And Then There'S Communities That Are A Lite Bit Me Permissive In Terms Of Allowing Larger Amounts Of Signage And That'S Really Up To The Community'S Preferences In Terms Of The That They'Re Seeking. And I Noted That I Already Noted That The Sign Ordinance Is An Article Ten Of Chapter 19. One Thing I Will Add About This Is That Currently In The In Chapter 19 And Our Older Zoning Provisions That Billboard Standards Are Actually A Separate Article Outside Of The Sign Ordinance. One Of The Things That We Would Contemplate As Part Of This Effort Is To Bring Those Things Togher Into One Bulk Section Of Standards Certainly Would Have Separate Performance Standards For Those Types Of Things But Currently They Exist Outside Or Separate From One Another So In Terms Of The Background And History, The Last Full Scale Overhaul Of City Sign Ordinance Was In 1996 Was A Little Bit Of Interesting Process In That The City Appointed Several Members A Kind Of Community Working Group That Became I Forget The Name Of It Is In The Staff Report. I'M Blanking On It Right Now But Effectively It Had Representation From Many Types Of Businesses Around The Community, Some Of Which Did Kind Of Inform Or Influence Some Of The Standards Around Some Of That Signage. So A Little Bit Of An Interesting Approach To That. Um, Since That Time There Has Been No Full Scale Comprehensive Review Of The Sign Ordinance. However That'S Not To Say That To Any Ordinance We Have There Is Always Been Iterative And Ongoing Updates To It Either To Address Certain Particular Legal Considerations Or Frankly Jt As The Actities We'Re Always Engaged In Is Just Trying To Make It Better And Also The Public Has A Role To Play In That Certainly There Has Been Public Interest And Feedback About Certain Aspects The Sign Ordinance That Have Developed Over Time And. Finally Just On That Front I Guess Incorporating New Signage Standards For Some Of Our Newer Zoning Districts. Some Of Our Zoning Districts Are More Modern. Some Of Our Mixed Use Districts. We'Ve Had A To Add To Our Sign Ordinance Over To Kind Of Address Those Different Types Of Zoning Districts And Development Types. So As Staff Goes Through And Works To Update Sign Ordinance, We'Re Certainly Going To Seek A Lot Of Feedback From You And The City Council About What Your Policy Preferences Are On Certain Various That'Ll Inform The Draft New Sign Ordinance But As Got As We'Ve Kind Of Gone Through This We'Ve Gone Through An Extensive Preliminary Process On The Staff End Of Things Identifying Okay What Are The Problems Where Do We Really Need To Fix Things And What Are Really Our Goals For This Project And What With All Those Discussions Boil Down To Is That There'S Three Primary Goals A There'S Some Really Significant Caselaw In The Last Few Years That Kevin Tasker You'Ll Talk About Here In A Minute And Then We Need To Really Pull Our Signed Ordinance Into Conformance With Those Current Legal Standards. We'Ll Talk About That On The Second Important Goal For This Project Is Really To Improve The Clarity, Reduce The Complexity Of Our Current Signed Ordinance. It'S Not An Uncommon Occasion If You Come To A Civic Plaza You Find That You See Planning Staff In A Conference Room Somewhere Having A Lively Debate. Sometimes It'S About Certain Provision Of The Sign Ordinance That Tt We Can'T Seem Togree On For Whatever Reason. So There Are Instances Where There'S Just A Little Bit Of Too Much Going On In The Side An Ordinance That Makes It A Little Bit Too Complex. So We Just Do Definitely Want To Make It As Clear As Possible And Then Just Improving Organization And Formatting Of It This You Know Certainly Everyday Residents Are Always In Our Sign Ordinance It'S Mostly Staff And Sign Installers Let'S Be Honest But In Businesses And Things Along Those Lines But We'Re In It We'Re In It Every Day So We'D Like It To Function A Little Bit Better And I Know Members Of The Public Who Do Use It Would Appreciate That As Well. Currently The Way The Existing Sign Ordinance Is Set Up Is Just There'S A Lot Of Redundant Lists Of Performance Standards So It'S Quite Lengthy And A Lot Of Ways To To Integrate Tables To Integrate That Could Be A Much Better Means To Communicate These Regulatory Standards. So That Would Be The Third Primary Goal We So As We Kind Of Evaluate Different Questions That We Encounter As We Thinking Abo Our New Standard We Kind Of Want To Continue To Refer Back To These Three Goals. Is It Reducing Complexity? Is It More Is It Better Organized And Is It Conformance With Current Legal Standards? Those Are Questions We'Re Going To Continually Ask Ourselves As We Evaluate Of The Direction That We Take This. So In Terms Of An Anticipated Timeline, We'Ve Been Doing Research Engagement Primarily Over The Fall Here And Into The Early Winter . We'Ve These Study Sessions Now That We Feel Like We'Ret A Decent Place To Get Some More Focused Feedback From You And The City Couil About Some Policy Preference Questions Once Following Those Study Sessions Then We'Ll Take The The Winter Here To Draft Our New Sign Ordinance And Draft Form Of Course And At Some Point Possibly In The Late Spring Maybe Getting Into Early Summer We Would Consider Scheduling Some Public Hearings It'S A Little Bit Undetermined What Additional Study Sessions Might Be Appropriate With The Draft Ordinance In Place. We'Re Still Evaluating That But. That'S Ctainly Something We Can Report Back On But This Just Gives You Kind Of A Rough Timeline Of What We Would Be Looking At In Terms Of Our Current Process. So With That I Will Turn Over To Kevin Tasca And He Can Talk About Signs In The Law. >> Good Evening Chair And Members My Name Is Kevin Task Is You Know I'M The Assistant City Attorney And I Work With Planning In The Rest Of The Community Development Department. >> Yeah Just Kind Of A Legal Introduction I Think Most Cities Around The Country Regulate Signage Through Their Their Landse And Zoning Codes. It'S Kind Of The Easiest Way To Do It But What That Does Is Introduces Kind Of More Complexity Obviously Because Nick Talked About What Signage Is Is Part Of It Is Expression. So You Have First Amendment Considerations Because The Government The City Is Doing A Regulating Of The Possibly A Message Or Expressive Activity Some Of Which Is Protected By The First Amendment. So It Does Get A Little Complex . There Has Been A Couple Of Cases Over The Past Seven Years Or So That Have Kind Of Shook The Signage World And Sent A Lot Of Cities Scrambling To Take A Look At Their Zoning Code Or Their Sign Codes Again Just For Conformance With What The Supreme Court Was Saying. So We Had Read Versus Town Of Gilbert Was In 2015 What That Case Said Was That If Your Sign Ordinance Differentiates Between Signs Based On The Message Or The Content Basically If You Have To Read The Sign To Determine How It'S Regulated That'S Going To Be A Major First Amendment Problem And The Court Will In 99% Of Cases Strike That Ordinance Down If It It Does Any Regulation Based On The Content Of A Sign. >> So That Was Read Versus Town Of Gilbert What You Saw In The Was That A Lot Of Cities Were Just Define Say Political Sign As Saying X Y And Z Going Forward That'S Going To Be A Problem After Read Versus Town Of Gilbt So That'S Why A Lot Ociti Went Back To The Drawing. Bloomington Has Done Some Piecemeal Kind Of Ordinance Since 2015 To Kind Of Deal With That. But Like They About This Is Our Comprehensiveeview Of That So Moving On Just Last Year Was The City Of Austin Versus Reagan Outdoor Advertising Which Was A Case Billboards In The City Of Austin Texas And. The Supreme Court In That Case Said That An Off Premise Versus On Premise Distinction Is Still And It'S Not Content Based. So What Austin Did Similar To What We Do In Bloomington Is That Any New Is Prohibited In Any Expansion Of A Billboard Has To Come In To Consider Conformance With Current Science Standards To What We Do Here And The Court Said Yeah That'S Fine That'S Judg Kind Of A Lesser A Lesser Constitutional Test Than Content Based Regulations. So That Was Good News For Cities Around The Country. So Those Are Kind Of The Two Big Cases That We'Re Dealing Over The Last Few Years. >> Like I Said, We'Ve Done Some Updating But This Is A Good Chance To Do A Full Kin Of Comprehensive Update To Make Sure We'Re Doing As Much As We Can To Minimize Our City'S Risk Legally So So What We'Re Doing With This Case Is We Had Some Money Aside For Working With Outside Counsel On That So We'Re Working With The Greensboro Law Firm. One Of Their Attorneys, John Baker, Who I'Ve Kind Of Met Through Just City Attorney Stuff In Minnesota Is Kind Of A National Expert On Signage And Land Use Cases He Litigate And Advisors Cities Around The Count On Land Use Ises And Has Done A Number Of Presentation Oceans And Kind Of Manuals On Sign Code Updates Other Cities And States So We'Re Working With Him And I'Ve Kind Of Went Through And Kind Of Looked Problems In Our Code And Kind Of Done Some Preliminary Work On The Legal End. >> And Then What We'Ll Talk About Tonight Is More Of Policy Issues Kind Of The Direction We Want To Go. You Know, What Do Want For As Far As Sign Signage? How Is That Calculated, That Type Of Thing Whereas I Was Looking At Say You Know, Sure Our Account Or Signs Aren'T Content Based How Are Non-Conformity Is Going To Be Treated How Do We Do Sign Code Variances Those Type More Immediate Legal Issues If What I'Ve Been Looking At So We Kind Of Have A Good Base Of Reference Now And We'Re Ready To Kind Of Move The Next Phase Of The Project Just Kind Of Summary Of Kind Of The First Amendment Issues That We Want To Look At With Sign Codes. Is That A So The First Amendment Does Apply We'Ll Have To Be You Know, It'Ll Itl Inform All Our Decision Making Going Forward On Sign Regulation Number Two Is That You Don'T Want To Favor Any Noncommercial Speech Or Favor Commercial Speech Over Noncommercial Speech. So We'Re Looking Instances Of That In Our Code We Have A Section That Exempts Certain Categories Of Signage From Permitting Regulation And So That That'S Kind Of A Source For That Where That Problem Can Come Up. You Know, If You'Re Exempting Certain Types Signage Whereas Other Signage Requires A Permit There'S A Potential For Some For Some Issues There. >> So What We Really Want To Do Is Is Make Sure That We'Re Regulating Signage Based Kind Of What'S Happening On The Property Rather Than What'S Happening On The Sign And So I Guess Basically We'Re Just Trying To Go Through And Kind Of Apply Those Principles Throughout Our Code So We Can Kind Have A Good Base Of What We'Re Doing Now And Then Like I Said And And We'Ll Get Some Feedback From You Tonight About How We Want To Doolicy With, You Know, Setbacks, Signs, Sizes, How Is It Calculated That Type Of Stuff Those Regulations Are Always Viewed Under A Kind Of A Lesser Constitutional Threshold Or Test Where We Ought To Be Challenged. So As Long As There'S A Justification For Those Regulations, Then It Should Hold Up In Court So Be Around For Any Questions After That. >> But That Just Kind Of Gives You A Of The The Legal Considerations And How We'Re Addressing Those. >> So Back To Nick. >> Thank You, Kevin Sure Cooked Now To Actually Recommend If There'S Any Questions About The Legal Side Of It, I Would Even Recommend Just Before The Polling Type Activity If There'S Any Questions For Kevin Maybe Do That Now Or Pause Very Well. Any Questions For Mr. Toschi So Go All Right. Thank You Kevin . So Moving Forward Just A Kind Of A Note About Some Of The Engagement We'Ve Done And Some The Research That We'Re Performing. So Engagement Or Outside Can Be A Little Bit Odd Or Outside The Norm Of As I Said Earlier That It Kind Of Is A Topic That Represents A Very Specific And Focus Group Of People Whether It Be Businesses Or Site Installers Certainly Staff Is Part Of That Too. But In Terms Of The Outreach We'Ve Done Done To So One Of The Things That We Did Is That We Cured A List Of All The Parties Who Have Been Issued A Signed Permit At The City Bloomington In The Last Five Years And That Turned Up Being 113 Different Parties. So We Sent Them A Signed Ordinance Survey Trying To Get An Uerstanding Of You Know, Is This Really More Of An Internal Perception Some Of The Challenges That We That We Perceive Or Is It Something That'S Widely Viewed Out In Kind Of The Signage Community? Unfortunately Only Six People Per Completed. The Survey And The Results Surprised Us A Little Bit. They Were Kind Of Demonstrating A Certain Level Of Satisfaction With Bloomington Sign Ordinance If I Had To Guess What That'S About I Think That'S More Reflective Of The Fact That Many Need To Update Their Signed Ordinances And That Many Cities Sign Ordinances Are Kind Of A Redundant List Of Never Ending Standards That'S My Guess. But Some Did Some Did Present Some Interesting Ideas For Us To Consider. We Draft Or Sign Ordinances For Example Some Cities Exempt Face Changes In Terms Of Doing Sign Permits. I'M Not I Certainly Wouldn'T One Way Or The Other Of That Here But Just You Know They Presented Some Interesting Ideas In Some Of Their Comments So We'Ll Take That Into Account. Another Thing We Did Is That We Did Send A Survey Out To 30 Metro Cities Or 30 Kind Of Peer Communities Here In The Twin Cities Metro Area And Really We Were Identifying With That One Is Trying To Answer Some Really Key Specific Questions That Relate To The Bloomington Ordinance As Well As Get A Sense Of What Communities Have Recently Updated Their Signage In A More Comprehensive Way And Then Specifically Asking Staff Of Those Organizations How They View The Effectiveness Of Their Sign Ordinance. So We Wouldn'T Want To Be From Sign Ordinances Or Pulling Ideas Or Referencing Them From A Research And Analysis Standpoint If They'Re Not Well Not Well Viewed By Their Own Staff Who Implement Them So That It Was Helpful In That Regard And We Did Get 14 Responses On That So That Did Provide Us Some Good Data In Terms Of Other Types Of Outreach We Have Shared Kind Of What We'Re Doing With Local Representatives Of The Business Community. Some Of Them Are More Target Targeted The Bloomington Chamber While Technically I Think Still Active Has Gone Through Some Transitions Of Leadership Recently And Think Does Have More Of An Affiliation With The Minneapolis Chamber Of Commerce. So I Think We Need To Do A Little Bit More Outreach In That Regard. But We Have Spoke With Some General Landowners, Business Owners That We Encounter Through Other Activities And Planning Just To Let Them Know That We'Re Going Through This Process. In Addition To That We Did We Did Table At The Bloomington Farmers. No One Wanted To Talk To Me About The Signed Ordinance That Was A Little Disappointing Or Expected I Don'T Know Which But Yeah So That'S Some Of The Outreach We'Ve Done In Terms Of The The Research That We'Re Doing. So Certainly There Is A Whole Assortment Of Kind Of Best Practice And Best Concept Research There Around Signed Ordinances And We'Re Certainly Collecting That And In Fact John Baker Recommended Had Some Good Recommendations For Us In That Regard. In Addition To That We'Re Also Studying And Researching Ordinances From Other Local And National Jurisdictions That Are Viewed With A High Level Oeffectivenes And Legal Conformity To Today'S Standards. So It'S Kind Of A Collection Of You Know, There Is Model Ordinances Out There. I'D Put That More In The Best Practices And Concepts Category And Then It'S Identifying Cities That Are More That Have Some Similarities To Bloomington But Also Have A Recently Updated And Effective Sign. So That Kind Of Gives You The Flavor Of How We'Re Pulling Some Of Our Ideas And Standards. So For Now We'Re Kind Of Moving It More Into The Interactive Part Of The Presentation So We'Re Going To Ask I Forget Is It 4 Or 11 I Rget The Number Of Questions Was For Yeah That Sounds Right But We'Ve Got A Number Of Questions Around These Different Topics That We'Re Seeking Feedback From And In Order To Get That Feedback We Certainly Can Discuss Things And Answer Questions Back And Forth And I'Ll Try And Provide A Kind Of A Summary Level Explanation Of What We'Re Looking For And What The Topic Really Calls For As Go Through It. But We'Re Going To Try This Polling Activity Using Using Some Equipment Called Turning Point. It'S Equipment That The Has Had For A While Recently The Use Of Virtual Meeting Environments Kind Of Went Away From That But Of Course We'Re All Back In Person So We Thought We'D Get And Kind Of Dust Off The Cobwebs Of It And See If It Will Work So. The The There Is A Picture On The Slide Of What The Clicker Looks Like Basically All The Buttons Are Either Numerical Or Letters. All The Polls That We'Ll Have For You This Evening Our Letter Buttons What You'Re Going To Watch For Is On My Slide There'Ll Be A Small Toolbar Which I Have In The Center The Slide Up In The Top Right Portion Of The Screen And It Has That Small Polling Button On The Far Right Hand Of It. It'Ll Either Poll Closed Or Poll Open, The Poll Closes And Red And The Poll Open Is In Green. So When It'S Green It Means That We Can We Can Collect Your Results. The Results Are Funnel Into A Receiver That'Ll Be Plugged Into My Computer Here And We'Ll Pass Them Out. And So When You'Re Trying To Report Your Results Kind Of Aiming At My Computer My Computer If You Can And I Pass Them Out Okay. Mr. Johnson Yes. Anonymous. This Is Anonymous. Yes. You There'S No Signature Here In Terms Of The Clicker That You'Re Going To Be Using. We Won'T Know What Your Particular Answer Is. All We Have Is The Results. Yeah. Thanks For That Though And. May I Ask How Are You Planning To Use The Information You Collect From Us? Is It A Hard Hard Data Collection Or? Is It A More Informative In Nature? I Mean There'S Only Fr Of Us I Can'T Imagine You'Re Making Decisions Based Off Of The Four Of Us. Yeah, That'S Correct And That'S A Good Question. So Incumbent With You And The City Council That'Ll Bump Up The Numbers A Little Bit And If It'S Something That It'S Can Becomes More Of A Tie Scenario Than I Think It Might Solicit Some Conversation And Discussion About Why Those Why That Is And Why You Know What'S Informing The Kind Of Preferences That Are At Play. So That'S Part Of That. So I Don'T Want To Say It'S Just The Raw Numbers But We Want To Get The Right Directionally Kind Of Make Sure That We'Re Going Ithe Right Directi That Honors The Outcomes Of The Pc And Council. Well Yeah Thank You. I Think Those All Live Them Ready To Go. Okay So What We'Re Going To Do To See If This Actually Works And I Should Mention If If It Does The Equipment Does Not Work. We'Re Going To Have You Fill Out A Piece Of Paper So Less Exciting Or Maybe I Don'T Know If Maybe We'Ll Raise Hands Just So Everyone Can And Maybe Th Would Not Be A Answer So That Would Be A But So There Is A Backup Plan. Hopefully This Works But Here Is Our First Test Pull Catch In Question So Now The Poll Is Open. You Can Press Your Response If You Pointed At My Computer Over Here And I'Ve Got One Response Three Still Waiting On One. Okay So Four Responses Is What Is Your Favorite Mode Of Transportation I Know What I Would Pick But I Will See What You Say. Oops. Oh Now Let'S Do That One More Time. I Should Have Mentioned Two. Is That Let'S Start This Over Here. Can One Of You Actually Press The Buttons At Me? I'M Sure This Is Enthralling Television Right Now. Let Me Try And Restart The Poll. Okay. Cooked In Could You Press One Button Click A Button Let Me See If This Works. There We Go. Okay Now It'S Live Again And Did Record Your Vote You Can Change Your Response To In The Middle So I Won'T Jump Again This Time My Apologies Just Takes A Minute After We Advance. So Three 75% Of You Bike Is Your Favorite Mode Of Transportation. That'S Mine Too. That'S What I Would Have Said . So That'S Just A Test That Has Nothing To Do With Science. For The Record. Okay So Getting It So Now That We That This Works We'Re Going To Actually Get Into T Get Into The Actual Questions That We'Re Interested In Learning From You. And So The First Question We Want To Ask Is Just In Terms Your Own Perception Traveling Through The City Of Bloomington Just To Serve Runs Away Or So Freestanding Signs Includes Ground Signs, Monuments Signs, Pylon Signs The, Range Of Sign Allowance From A Size Standpoint In The City Bloomington Ranges Significantly It'S Determined By Whicher Sign District You Are In Which Is Tied To The Underlying Zoning And Allowed Land Uses. So For Example Residential Sites Are Going To Have Much Lower For Freestanding Signs And Wal Signs Are Building Signs For That Matter Than Our Commercial Sites. And I Would Also Note That In Some Of Our Commercial Sites Actually Having Proximity To Interstate 44 Or 35 W Or Highway 77 That Also Does Inform Increases In Allowed Sign Size. So The First Question We Want To Ask Specifically About Freestanding Signs Is Just About Your Perceptions About How The Current Sign Ordinance Is Operating Now And While We Might Talk About Different Methodologies To Calculate Aloud Signage For Well More Specifically For Building Signs What We'Re Really Getting At Here Is Is The Existing Kind Of Condition Working Well For The City Of Bloomington So With That The Poll Is Open So Our Are The Existing Signs Freestanding Signs In Bloomington Too Small Just Right Or Too Large? Okay. So We'Re Getting Some Consistency Or Consensus There. So The Next Question Moving On To Building Signs Currently The Existing Bloomington Sign Ordinance Regulates Building Signs By The Specific Type Of Sign That Is With The Exception Of Wall And Projecting Signs Have Some Cross Appeal But With The Other Than That There Are There Are Several Different Building Sign Types In The Bloomington Sign Ordinance There'S Wal Signs Awning Signs Which Can Be Signs There'S Porticohare Signs, There'S Separate Allowances For Entrance Signs In Different Sign Districts And Different Uses. So Again As We Kind Of Go Through These Questions, Think About Three Goals That I Talked About At The Beginning Of The Presentation. One Of Our Goals Is Really To Reduce Complexity Kind Eliminate So Much Of The Redundancy And That That Is Occurring There. And So Our Question With Respect To This Is Should We Create An Overall Allowance For Building Signs Per Building Elevation Or Frontage Or Does The Commission And Council Appreciate Or Prefer The Current Which Is Having Dedicated Allowances By Sign Type So The Question Mr. Johnson Can You Explain The Word Allowance Allowances So Every Wall Every Building In Bloomington Depending On The Use Depending On The Sign District That It'S In Again Which Is Tied To Zoning I Didn'T Talk About Sign Districts A Lot. It Was In The Report If You Want Me I Can Abo Sign Districts I Might Have To If I Keep Referencing It Here This Evening But Allowances The Size Of The Sign The Square Footage Your Ex Business Is Allowed To Have 200 Square Feet On A Given Building Elevation . That'S Kind Of The Part By Which They'Re Erecting Walls Signs And I Would I Would Note One Thing We As You Can Think About As Think About Sign Sizes. It'S Kind Of It'S Not Frequent That Businesses Maximize Their Full According To Our Existing Ordinance But That'S Something We'Ll Tnk About When We Draft Our Standards So So In Other Words On This One Just Should The New Ordinance Just Have Building Sites More Generically Or Should We Continue To Have Separate Allowances By Type And The Pole Is Opened On This One Maybe I Waited Too Long. Okay, The Polls Open Now Forgive Me . Okay. 7525 Okay. We'Ll Keep That In Mind. This Next Question Has To Do With How We Calculate Building Area. So Currently The Sign Ordinance Calculates This Is Most Specifically Utilized For Wall Signs But Our Wall Signage Allowances Checkbook To Ask That Question Before What Is An Allowance It'S The Size Of The Sign And What Is It Calculated On Currently It'S Calculated Calculated Based On Wall Area Up To A Level Of Height Many Other Sign Ordinances Are Calculated Calculated Based On Linear Frontage Or The Linear Length Of The Building Wall As Opposed To Doing An Area. One Of The Challenges With Doing A Calculating It By A Percentage Of Wall Area Is That Buildings Are Obviously And Not Uniformly In Any Given One Way Here'S An Example Where This Particular Property Actually Has While My Brain Has Gone Blank What Is The Sign Band On Top? Glenn Help Me Out For A Second. The The Decorative Piece Above The Roofline Parapet. Parapet. Thank You. Well, Must Have Been A Long Week. Thank You. So Here'S Example Where Some Of These Decorative Parapets Actually Artificially Create Sign Wall Area For A Buildin In Aition To Create Some Interesting Measurement Considerations It'S Not As If Staff Doesn'T Have The Ability And The Technology Accurately Calculate These Types Of Areas. It Just Adds A Bit Layer Of Complexity That Makes A Little More Complex Than Necessary. In Addition That What I Would Say Is That In The Situation That We Get A Lot Of Often Very Often Cases Multi-Tenant Retail Centers If Oftentimes It'S Very Easy To Dig Out The Drawings From The Building With Respect To Linear Tenant Frontage As Opposed To Having Fu Architectural Drangs Of A Buildin. So It'S A Little Bit Easier For The Sign Installer And For The Business Owner To Kind Of Know What Their Allowance Is Going Into It. It Reduces Of That Friction That Regulatory Friction On The Front End. So The Here Would Be Is If There Is Some Consent Or Perspective About How We Should Calculate Our Sign Areas And So It Would Be Using A Linear Frontage As Opposed To The Area And It'S A Yes Or No Question Quick Question Before We Move On. I Go Back To The Picture. Yeah, You Bet. Whatf This Building Is Three Stories Tall Versus Just This Proportional? You Know What Was It Called? Parapet. Parapet. Thank You. I'M Just Thinking Do You Take Height Into Account Or You'Re Saying Height Doesn'T Matter Here We Do Chair Cooked In Mr. Goltzman We Do. The Height Does Matter But We Cap It So The Existing Sign Ordinance Is Capped At 25 Feet. So When You Calculate A Wall Area For The Purposes Of The Allowance Of The Amount Of Signage It'S The Linear Frontage Say It'S A 6 Foot Tall Buiing. We Would Still Cap It At 25 Feet And So It'S It Would Be You Know, Whatever The Length Of The Building Is 10 To 25 At That Instance. So We Do Cap It. Thank You. Yeah, I Just Want To Clarify That Discussion. So The Proposal Though Is To Get Rid Of That Eight Component Of It, Correct? Correct. And If And Let Me Back A Little Bit To Explain That A Little Bit Further Before You Answer The Question And What That What Would Mean Is That There Would Also Be A Multiplication Factor. So The Way That The Existing Sign Ordinance Uses Wall Area Is It Multiplies It By A Percentage Dependingn How Much Signage Is Allowed In That Particular Sign District. So 4% Of Wall Area Can Be Your Sign 8% Whatever The Case May Be What A Linear Frontage Factor Does Is It Also Has A Multiplication Factor Usually Like 1 To 1 So One You Get One For Every Foot Of Frontage You Get You Get A Square Foot Of Signage For Example You Had A 40 Foot Long Bill. You Can Get 40 Square Feet In A High End In A More Intense Type Of District. You Might It Might Be 1.5 Times The Linear Frontage Or Two Times Even In A Very Kind Of Commercial Heavy Type District. So Those Factors There Is It So Similar To Wall Area There'S Also A Multiplication Factor And That'S What That'S What Becomes The Lever By Which You Decide How Much Signage A Property Is Allowed Say In A Residential Area You Might Not Even Use Linear Frontage But If You Did You Would Make That Multiplication Factor Quite Small Like Point Five Or .25 Whatever The Case May Be. So Just An Idea There The Polls Open Looking Just Confirmation That Linear Building Tenant Frontage Is Good Direction To Go In . Okay For Responses Sounds Good . This One Is Sign Construction. So This One This One Has A Little Bit More Clear Visual And Esthetic Considerations. So I Feel Like This One Is A Good One To Ask The Public Kind Of Their Perspectives On And Get Some Good Feedback From Planning Commission And Council. So There'S Two Basic Types Of Building Signs There'S Cabit Signs Which I Usually Like A Rigid Geometric Shape That'S Backlit Typically The The Sign On The Bottom Part Of The Slide The Best Friend'S Animal Hospital That'S An Example Of A Cabinet Sign And The Other Form Of A Typical Wall Or Building Sign Would Be What'S Called Letter Construction Type Sign And Those Are Individual Cut Letters That Also Have Typically They'Re Lit They'Re Not Always Lit But They Are The As You Can See In Grand Sichuan For Example Or In Gmc In The Other The Top Portion Of The Slide Those Are Individuly Cut Letters Tt E Mounted On A Sign Band And So That Kind Of Gives You An Idea So. Currently The Bloomington Sign Ordinance Does Not Allow Mixing Of These Same Types On The Same Wall Or The Same Building There Is A Prohibition Against Mixing Cabinet And Channel Letter Signs. We Do Have Some Non-Conforming Situations In The Community But So Here On The Slide We Have Three Examples You Have A Channel Only Situation A Cabinet Sign Situation On The Top Right Both Tho Would Be Permitted B Code And Thenn The Bottom Portion Of The Slide You A Situation That Is Currently Non-Conforming Legally So But Is Non-Conforming And So One Of The Questions We Kind Of Want To Want To Take Into Is Whether Or Not A Mixing Of Same Types Is An Acceptable Arrangement In The Future Signed Ordinance. A Couple Of Things To Think About Really This Is Really More Of An Esthetic Consideration Versus More Of A Kind Of Property Owner Preference Type Situation One Tng To Think About Channel Cut And I Don'T Think This Should Drive The Bus On This Necessarily But Channel Letter Signs Are Tend To Be More Expensive Than Cabinet Signs. So There Is Maybe An Equity To That. But Really What We'Re Getting Is Oftentimes A Particular Business That Moves Into A Multi-Tenant Center Has A Sign That Have Implemented Elsewhere Or Want To Utilize And In Some Because The Pattern Of The Existing Building Is Already Either One Or The Other Channel Or Cabinet They Can'T Implement The Sign That They Desire Some On The Property Owner Side Of Things I Would Say That It'S Very Mixed. Some Property Owners Are Very However Do Have Strong Preferences About That And In That Case There Still Is That Private Interaction Between Them The Property Owner Is Going To Be Able To Dictate In Some Cases What Type Of Sign They. But There Are Property Owners Also Who Who Don'T Have Strong Preferences In That Regard And Are More Focused On Just Getting The Tenant Moved In And Operating. So With That The Question Here Before You Is Should Both Cabinet And Channel Letter Same Types Be Allowed On The Me Building Orlevation So Geing Sense Of That Preference That I Jumped Again Again It'S Open Okay The Polls Open Okay Sounds Good Continuity So Moving Forward I Use Space Signage This Is This Only Relates To A Few Disnct Es In Bloomingn But As I Was Sharing With You Before About Kind Of Some Of The History Not That All Of The Special Use Signage Provisions In The Existing Ordinance Were Based On Kind Of The Community Working Group That Worked On It. Some Of Them May Or May Not Have Been But One Of The Things That The Bloomington Side Ordinance Has A Special Standards For Special Gas Stations, Hotels, Offic Towers, High Usage Colleges And Universities Require That As Well. So Again Thinking About Reducing Complexity, Reducing Some Of The Nuance This It Would Be Our Preference To Try And Eliminate Some Of These Special Use Science. We Want To Make Sure That That'S In Line With Planning Commission And Council Desires Goals. I'M Happy To Discuss It More If Need Be But The Is Open On This One As Well. So The Question Would Be Can Should We Eliminate Use Based Science Where Feasible And We Still Need To Do Some Evaluation On Our End On Which Ones We Think Can Be Eliminated? Okay Thank You. The Next Topics We'Re Going To Have For Questions On Electronic Science. These Are Popular Science Discussions And So In Many Different Communities They Simply Refer To These Same Types Of Electronic Signs Or Dynamic Science. Some Communities Do Break Out The Different Types Of Electronic Or Dynamic Science And Bloomington Happens To Be One Of Those Communities In Our Sign Ordinance Have Them Broken Out Based On Changeable Copy Typ Scienc Graphic Science. There Are Also Video Signs Those Are Subject To Separate Standards. I Don'T Have Slides Prepared To That I Certainly Can Discuss Those Standards If You Like But Really What We'Re Going To Focus On The Next Couple Slides Are These Changeable Copy Versus Graphic Science. And So The First Question Would Be I Feel Like Some Of These Questions Interrelated So There'S Not A Perfect Order To Do Them In But Maybe We Can Kind Have A Round Up Discussion About These Next Couple Of Questions At The End. But The Question In This Case Is Shouldhe City Maintain Two Distinct Types Of Electronic Science Before We Do The Poll I Want To Emphasize That The Reason That Some Differentiate Them Is That The Visual Impact Of These Sign Types Is More With Graphic Type Science Versus Changeable Copy Changeable Copy Simply A Dark Background With Text Typically So Poor Question Should Multiple Electronic Types Be Maintained In Our Future? Sign Ordinance Pulls Everyone'S Getting Fast Putting In Their Preferences That'S Great So Preference Is More Towards No In This Category We'Ll Talk About It More At The End Should Electronic Graphic Display Signs Be Allowed Residential Districts? So Currently The Only Types Of Electronic Signs Allowed At Your Place Of Assembly At Your City Park Sites That Are Zoned R One Are The Changeable Copy Signs The Graphics Type Signs Currently Not Allowed Per The Sign Ordinance And One Of The Questionsould Be Is Whether It Be Subject To Standards Or Not What Should There Be Allowances For Graphic Signs In Our Residential Districts? One Thing I Will Share About These Sign Types That As The Technology Continues To Improve The Signs Are Also Becoming A Little Bit More Affordable From A Price Point Standpoint You Know With Like Electronics And Other Types Of Technologies. Now Previously There Is More More More In The Guts Of The Sign There To Make It A Graphic Signs Nowaday With The Way The Technology Is Going It'S Pretty Simple To Translate Any Sign That Can Do Change Of Copy In Many Cases Can Also Do Graphics. That'S Kind Of The Direction That Some Of It Is Going. But That Being Said, You Know, Again Thinking About Visual Impact, These Same Types Of Graphics Be Allowed In Residential Districts. So That'S The That Is The Question Here Here. Great Split On That One. Okay. Sounds Good. So The Next One Has To Do With An Issue Surrounding Public Safety And Kind Of Traveling Safety There Is Also Some Esthetic Considerations Here But One Of The Key Regulators Factors In Electronic Science Has To Do With Static Dwell Time And The Reason Being Is That What It Really Means Is The Frequency At Which The Sign Faces Changing On These Electronic Signs In The Case Of Changeable Copy It'S Just Simply A Message The Change Of Graphics It'S A Changing Image That Can Go Quite Quickly. The City Standards Are That Changeable Copy Science Can Change Every 8 Seconds For Graphics It'S A Static Dwell Time Of 20 Minutes In Terms Of What'S Happening Out In The Twin Cities. I'Ve Done Less Research About This Topic Nationally But In The Twin Cities The Range Is Actually Pretty Staggering How Disparate Or How Varied It Is. You'Ll See Some Studies With Standards Actually The Seconds For Graphics Are And They May Most Likely In Those Cases Have Just One Type Of Electronic Sign. On Thelip Side Of That There Is Actually Communities That Have Static 12 Times Of An Hour That You Can'T Change Your Message More One Time Per Hour. So That Gives You A Pretty Wide Range Kind Of Live In The Question That We Have Before You This Evening And This Has A Little Bit To Do With Kind Of Existing Scenario For The City Of Bloomington Is 8 Seconds For Changeable Copy If You Were To Go To A One Of The Considerations For Going To Just One Type Of Electronic Sign From A Regulatory Perspective Is That Would Make It Difficult For You Then To Kind Of Differentiate Those Two Design Types From A Static Real Perspective. So Something To Think About. But Basically The Question We Want You To Answer Is Should We Retain Our Existing Dwell Time Standards Or We Reduce Dwell Time For Graphic Display Signs? So That'S The Question A Or B In That Respect. Thank You . Okay. Retain T Curre Standard. Sounds Good. So In Researching Some Other Communities Well There'S Some Components That The City Of Bloomington Does Not Is Not Currently Actively Included In The Bloomington Sign Ordinance. In Some Communities They Do Have Size Restrictions In Terms The Size Of Electronic Sign They Can Have That Might Be A Proportionality Test Like It Can Only Be 50% Of The Max Sign Size Or It Can Or It Might Just Be A Flat Number Like In This District The Largest Electronic Sign You Can Have Is 50 Square Feet. For Example. So There'S Different Ways To Do It. Bloomington Doesn'T Currently Have Size Restriction. Your Allowance For Electronic Signage Just Mirrors That Of Which You'Re Either Your Freestanding Sign Or Your Wall Sign Can Swapped Out. The Other Thing To Consider Is Operation Time Restriction And What That Really Where I'Ve Seen That And What That Really Means Fundamentally Is Turn It Off At Night Turn It Off Between 10 P.M. And 7 A.M. And Where I Most Often See That Is When A Sign Is In Close Proximity To Residential Uses Senior Planner Land Lp Has Informed Me That Actually Under Some State Energy Code And Other Other Codes They'Re Actually Supposed To Be Doing That Anyway But Because That'S Not A City Ordinance Would Be Something To Contemplate If That Were Not A Standard Particularly In Proximity To Residential Uses If That'S Something That We'Ve Found Be Important It Might Be Worth Something Adding To The Zoning Code The Only Flip Side Or Challenge Associated With That Is That Anything You'Re Going To Put In City Code You Better Be Willing To Enforcet Against And Typicly Involves Nighttime Inspections So That That Is A There But Some Cities Are Doing It And It'S Something To Consider So With This One I Didn'T Update The Slide. There'S Actually Four Choices Here On This One You Could Do A Restriction, You Could Do A Operational Time Restriction If You Wanted To Add You Could Do Both A And B Or You Could Do No Additional Restriction. So Four Options To Pick From Here In . The Poll Is Open. Thank You. Okay. Sounds Good. And We'Re We'Re Getting These Down Here So One Might Be A Little Bit Kind Of Staff Being In Its Own Head A Little Bit Potentially. We'Ll See How Kind Of How Much The Public Keys Into This One. But Right Now Currently We Have Called A Uniform Sign Design Process In Bloomington And Cities Have A Similar Type Approval Process Some Do Not. What It Really Is Is It Deals With Signage On Multi-Tenant Buildings Most Commonly In Terms Of Basically Dedicating What The Signage Allowances For A Particular Tenants Space What The Sign Construction Going To Be You Know Some Of Them Dating Back To The Seventies And Eighties In Bloomington Even Specify Fonts And Letter Sizes Like They Can Be Very Specific And They Don'T Have To Be From A Regulatory Perspective But That'S Just Some Of The Things We See. And Then So It'S Multitenant Buildings, It'S Developments With Multiple Buildings, Multiple Primary Buildings That The Signage Has To Match On Multiple Primary Buildings . There Is Also Some Special Use Signage Regulations Like Hotels And Car Dealers That Have To Get A Usd Per Hour Code . So Again Just Thinking About Trying To Reduce Complexity, Make Things A Little Bit More Streamlined It Does Require A Land Use Approval. So As You Know Of Similar To Getting A Signed Permit But More Similar To Getting A Zoning Approval Someone Has To Submit A Uniform Uniform Sign Design Either A New One Or An Amendment From Through The Planning And Zoning Department Prior To Them Getting Their Signed Permit. So Just To Give You An Idea Of Like Kind Of The Administrative Steps That Are Necessary So With This Particular Process Hefully I Di'T Concludehat Too Much Orust Talked Bch Gibberish But Basically We'Re Asking For Three Potential Scenarios. One Would Be To Remove Or Eliminate Us Cities As A Process Multitenant Would Simply Be Regulated By Their Linear Frontage Or Their Wall Area Whatever Ultimately We Select In That Regard And That Would Kind Of Be It You Could Make Us Use An Optional Process Which Would Give The Property Owner Some Flexibility To Kind Of Move Signage Allowances On A Particular Building Elevation Around A Little Bit And Kind Of Distribute That If They Had Like A A Keystone Tenant Was Important On Like A Corner Cap For Example It Might Be Something Of Interest To Certain Property Owners. We Do Have Some Who Like Our Process Now That'S Probably Not The Majority Position But Some Do Kind Of Like Like The Fact That We Have It And. Then The Third Option Would Just Be To Maintain The Existing Structure And As A So Really You'Re Talking About Elimination Kind Of An Optional Or A Maintain The Existing Status. Okay. The Polls Open This Is Really Fun Isn'T It? Okay. And It Sounds Good Optional. Okay. And One One Vote For Removal So This Is Kind Of A Fun Topic. One Of The Things That We Want To Do Or I Should Say The The Creative Placemaking Commission Is Strongly Behind This. You Know, They'Ve Obviously Been Doing A Lot Of Art Installations Around Bloomington And One Of The Issues That'S Kind Of Cropped Around Murals Is That There Are It'S Not Within The Sign But There'S Other Cities City Code Standards Particularly Around Exterior Materials That Really Limit Or Preclude The Installation Of Murals On Buildings. If You Notice A Lot Of The Maryland Stations Around Town Have Been Done On Screening Walls And The Highway Over Rampn A Few Other Sit. City Hall Certainly Has One But That'S Kind Of The Exception Not The Common And The Way Our Exterior Material Standards Look At It As A Secondary Material Currently That You Can'T Paint Directly On A Primary. And So What This Next Question Really Is Asking It'S It'S A Very General Question. It'S Should Staff Basically Pursue City Code Amendments And The Adoption Of A Murals Policy In Order To Facilitate Or Make It A Little Bit Easier Easier A Regulatory Standpoint To Install Murals? It'S Really It'S Just Do You Want More Murals Or Not? I Mean Let'S Boil It Down, Paul Open And The Responses Are In Oc Sounds Good Billboards. One Of The Cases That Kevin About Was The Austin Case That Was Decided Recently And The Critical Element Of That Is Off Premise Signage And So Billboards New Billboards Are Currently Prohibited In Bloomington. A Lot Of That Is On The Basis Of Esthetic Considerations But Also Those Unknown To Their Definition Are O Premises Signs You Know No One Is Erecting A Billboard For Where Their Business Is Already Located It'S Always A Traveling Advertisement Or Message Of Expression Typically So The Question That We Would Ask Around Billboards Is Is Either A Return Our Standards As They Exist Which Is For The Most Part A Prohibition B To Allow Additional Billboards Subject To Standards Or C Consider Opening Selected Areas Of The Community Only To Additional Billboards. So Those Are The Three Options That We Woulduggest In Th Paicular Case The Polls Open Y'All Are Getting Very Fast At This. Thank You. So It'S Either Retain The Prohibition Or Consider Consider Selected Areas. We Can Talk We Can Discuss Any One Of These Topics That'S At Your Discretion It'S Your Meeting So That'S Kind Of The End Of The Polling Exercise. Thank You For Participating In That. I Don'T Know How Smooth That Went Or Didn'T Go But At Least It'S A Way T Kind Oeveryone Get Voice And Kind Of A More Expedited Efficient Manner. I'M Happy To Take Questions About All The Things We Talked About You Might Have Some Questions Or Discussion Items About It In Terms Of Next Steps We'Re Really Getting Heavy In The Drafting And Writing Mode So. At Some Point We'Re Going To Have I Mean The Assistant Attorney Cast Task Excuse Me Has Already Done Quite A Bit Of Drafting On Some Of These Legal Components Of It. We Have Concepts On The Policy Side But We Wanted To Touch Base With Our Boards And Commissions First To Make Sure That We'Re Hded In The Rht Direction. So With That I'Ll Stand For Questions. Thanks Mr. Johnson Questions For Steph I Do Have A Question About Sign Districts And I If I'M Recalling The Staff Report Correctly Some Signed Districts Were Required A Channel Letter Signs And Sort Of Cabinet Signs Is Is That Correct And Is That Being To Be Carried Forward? Yeah. Thanks Chair Cooked In I Believe That Is Required In Ourixed Use Dtrict So That Would Be Our Class Five Assigned District But I'D I'D Have To Get Back To You On That To Be Absolutely Certain That'S Fine And Signed Districts Are They Geographic Or Are They Parcel By Parcel Or How Does That Work? Yeah Thanks For That Question. They'Re Not Geographic That What They Are Base They'Re Tied To Is The Base Zoning Of Every Single So Each Signed District With The Exception Of Two Two Of Our Assigned Districts Are One Zoning District Only Districts One Is For The Mall Of America 62 And One Is For The Hsr District Which Is A Bloington Central Station Standard. And So One Thing I Didn'T Talk About Tonight But Design Districts We May Still Look At And If There Are Any Opportunities To That Number And Shrink Them We Will Because Again Based On Reducing But From My View And From Discussing It With Some Other Staff A Lot Of Those Have Been Set Up In Pretty Thoughtful Ways In Terms Of Where Those Areas Are Located And Kind Of What Purpose They Serve. So For Example, The Class Five District Has Some Of Our More Intense Retail Type Uses. So See To See Three Kind Of South Towns And Where You'Re Going To Have Freeway Frontage And Kind Of More Of Your Big Box Or More Intense Commercial Type Activities. So It'S Not Tied To Any Geographic Reason Or Parcels Themselves. What It'S Tied To Is The Underlying Zoning District Very. Any Other Questions For Steph Anything Else New From Us? I Don'T Think So, No We'Re Going To Take Your Feedback. We'Re Going To Do The Same Exercise With The Council. We'Re Going To Put Our Heads Together Following That And If We Disagree With You In Any Certain Waye'Ll Makeure We Make A Compelling Case As To Why But Of Course Honor Your Feedback. Right. Thank You, Mr. Johnson. This Is Very, Very Creative And. I Don'T Know Maybe Just A Four Plank Or Any Thoughts On How This Clicker Thing Works Or When To Would You Like To See It Again. >> Commissioner Goltzman Thanks Chair. I Think Were Fun And I Know That As A Commission We'Re Usually Very Expressive And We Can Talk About Things For A Long Time And This Was A Very Concise Way To Our Feedback So I Tught It Wasreat And Then I Alsoeally Appreciat The Visuals That You Provided. It Helped Me Understand What Were Saying. So I Liked The Presentation And I Liked The Clicker As Thank You And I Would Just To Thank Emily Has Backed The Planning Tech Who Actually Did A Lot Of The Heavy Lifting And Horsepower Behind This Activity So Thank You Emily Very Well Thank You To Steph. You Bet. Right We Will Then Move On To Item Number Four Which Is The Consideration Of Approving The Draft Meeting Minutes From Different Previous Meetings. And I Think We'Re Going To These One By One With A Reduced Amount Of Commissioners Here This Evening And I Will Be Leaning Again On Mr. Marker To Remind Us Of How Many People We Need . So We'Ll Start With November 17Th Commissioners President That Meeting Were Commissioner Rohman Commissioner Goldman Commissioner Abdi Myself And Commissioner Mcgovern So One Two So Three Of The Five At That Meeting Were Present Are Present Here This Evening Which Is A Quorum So We Could Vote On That. Mr. Mcgregor Is That Correct? Kicked Yeah. The Rules Of Procedure About A Majority Of The Members Present At The Meeting As Long As We Have That You Can Vote On Vote On The Minutes So We Will Sir With November 17Th And I'Ll Look For A Motion From One Of The Present Commissioners Commissioner Goltzman I Move To Approve The Draft Synopsis For November 17Th. >> I'Ll Second That Motion All Those In Favor Of Approval Of The November 17Th Draft Synopsis For November 17Th I. I Opposed Abstain I Okay The Motion Passes We Will Then Move On To December 8Th And I Have Lost My Connection. Does Anyone Have The List Of Commissioners Available ? Thank You Commissioner Albrecht Available At Meeting Were Page Rohman Commissioner Goltzman Nelly Korman Commissioner Albrecht Commissioner Hardy Myself And Commissioner Mcgovern. So That Was Seven Of Us And We Have Four Here This Evening So We Cld Vote On That One As Well. So Will Then Look For A Motion For The December 8Th Meeting. >> Mr.. Albrecht Thank You Chair. I Move To Approve The Draft Meeting Synopsis From December 2022. >> Second We Have A Motion In The Second For The December 8Th Meeting Approval Any Further Discussion There All Those In Favor Say I, I Opposed That Passes Four Zero We Will Then Move On To Our Final Approl Whichas The 22Nd Of December And I Really Messed Up On Whatever Commissioner Over To Go In There But Perhaps Mr. Mercader Has It For Us To Continue Had Five Members Present At The Meeting Only Two Of Which Are Here Tonight So We Will Need To Revisit That At Your Next Meeting. Very Well. Do We Need A Motion Of Continuance In This Case? I Don'T Think We Do. We Can Just We'Ll Bring It Back The Next Meeting. All Right. Very Well, That Sounds Great. That Concludes Item Four Then We Will Move On To Item Five Which Is The Planning Commission Policy And Issues Update Mr. Mercury, Do You Have Any Updates For Us Chair And Commissioners Next Scheduled Meeting Is January 26. However We Did Not Receive Any Applications For That Meeting And There Were No Continued Tonight To That Meeting So. We Have A Pretty Big Gap Here Until February 16Th Wil Be Our Next Meeting And We Do Have Three Items That Were Received Yesterday For That Agenda. One Is A Conditional Use Permit A Hockey Training Facility. The Second Item Is A Expansion Of The Luther And A Car Dealership And The Third Item As A Potential Item It'Still Not Finalized Whether It Will Be On The Agenda But It Would Be A Study Item Potentially Discussing Single Room Occupancy Which Is Under Work Plan For 2023. So That'S All We Have. Thank You, Mr. Record. Any Commissioners Have Any Miscellaneous Items They'D Like To Bring Up This Hearing Seeing None. That Concludes Our January Meeting Of The Bloomington Planning Commission. Good Night"