all clear [Applause] good go ahead and call the meeting to order start with a roll call mck here lanterman here botma Baron Camp here Nichols here perfect you like to stand and join me in The Pledge Allegiance Pledge Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay on to agenda approval uh looks like there's a few modifications a couple things removed from staff anything else uh yes mayor we have items 7 a B and C are removed item 7 I we have refined revised updated information and item 7n Parks and Recreation update was added no further changes for staff anything from Council uh I would like to poll 7D we'll do that at um at item seven okay perfect anything else I do that sometimes too oh yeah totally who do you think I learned it other than that I going to do it take an uh entertain a motion to approve the agenda as amended so second second second all those in favor say I bye and Alicia uh for everyone here this is our new assistant City administrator she's taking uh minutes are you taking minutes tonight sure so oh I if you are just feel free to jump in if you need us to slow down or if you need us to clarify anything because I know I couldn't figure out our conversation after four days of being here and have to make him legal minutes out of something so you're playing the halftime show too do you know that I didn't know that all right surprises uh commission Representatives we have Cecilia and Val and maybe Val's online Val should be online I think she mentioned that last I don't see her on there well hopefully she'll hop on at some point other than that we are on to open forum for items that are not on tonight's agenda and J can walk us through that uh ladies and gentlemen invite you to step up to the microphone if you have anything that you'd like to talk uh please talk to the dis and uh share about anything that you'd like to talk about that is not on this evening's agenda I have no cards okay then we will move on to consent agenda agenda which consists of items 7 D through 7n does anyone want to pull anything so 7 D was it 7D perfect man pull 7g sure and I would have actually asked a long time ago if you would have done that um so D and G anything else okay then I will entertain a motion to approve consent items a through f h I'm sorry uh e f and then H through n so moved second all those in favor say I I I okay first one is consent agenda item 7D mark thank you uh I would ask you to turn to page two of 10 as indicated in the top right hand corner and if we could go to the invoices for computer integration Tech I have two uh identical checks or two identical invoices being paid or invoice dollar amount $2,541 uh and what strikes me as a usual is the dollar amount but also the invoice number uh invoice number one is 37617 invoice number two is 376 917 it's almost as though we have a maybe a typo on the vendor's part that generated one invoice too many so the the item 37617 is the retainer uh and then when it actually goes for for item uh well let me Joe do you have anything to say about that one I'm looking at up right now guess I'm I'm I'm wondering why the difference in the invoice numbers one has five digits one has six and they both are for the identical number and if you're already paying for it Services why are we also paying a a retainer isn't it usually one or the other a retainer or just paying full why both it might we have certain items that we we have the IT contract on that we got relatively recently so it might be we have General have to do research answer that specifically but I I get your point okay and and then if you can back up one page uh halfway down under Amazon I see we purchased a detachable keyboard for $762 is that like a government hammer it's like 500 bucks or something I I my keyboard was like 40 bucks May other things on that invoice but when they order multiple things I can't F all in that one description okay so I pick out the main one go identify it oh okay it's right below iPads so it could also be multiples yeah I imagine it's the detachable keyboards uh which were five of them okay good all right that's it perfect thanks and with that uh I will entertain a motion Jay's going to look into that other item for you um and I'll entertain a motion to approve consent agenda item 7D so move second second all those in favor say I I and then on to 7g yeah this is me um it seems as though the DNR created a lake and we have to abide by the Shoreland preservation of said Lake which I think if um I don't know how we if they created a lake I don't know why we have to approve it but how can they just what's the process for them to just declare a lake do you know of one can we disagree with it or is it just something they did and we can't do anything about it yeah I I don't know of the process of when they determine a lake is now a lake or protected body but they do have both of these Lakes now identified as a d they have a DNR ID um and there is Shoreland in the in the city of corkin that we now have to add to our plans and our zoning ordinance and our map in order to be in compliance with the state requirements so I could definitely look into what the process is but this was this cook Lake was actually shown on our zoning map it just was not called out in our zoning ordinance and then the other Lake in Rogers at their shorland and corkran that one was news to staff uh but there is a DN associ with it's just weird that we've been on state for 150 years and with a lake declaration it inhibits things you can do around the lake and there doesn't seem to be any like rationale for it they just up and decided there was a lake um with no explanation no conversation um and I'm you I'm fine with Lakes but it seems like a really uh like what triggered it heavy-handed approach to telling us now we have a lake in our town but it's actually not in our town only the wetlands are in our town so it seems very odd look in look into the process you don't have to look into it CU you know we're not going to get very far on that but we don't have any other water bodies that might just pop up either unless it keeps raining yeah The Whole Town's going to be a lake I will say there have been times where uh there's been a creek that was in the Shoreland and then DNR has updated their process and so now it's been removed as part of our sh land overlay so there are updates that occasionally happen um as they do their thing on their end essentially so we just adjust as required yeah yeah so literally we have no choice nope not really okay anything else on it no okay I will entertain a motion to approve consent agenda item 7 G so move second perfect uh all those in favor say I I oppos nay one I'm voting Nay by because of their process not because I'm against what they did keep in mind though that without a 5 Z majority we have to do the full publication it's four fths oh it is four fths you're right you're right thank you thank you problem thanks for voting no so then we will move on no and being planning business we have a public comment opportunity for items 8 a 8 B 8 C and 8 D and Jay will walk us through that and then we'll go into 8 a uh so uh Mr Mayor we did receive um my count was five uh online comments emails to us uh those have been provided uh and staff has responded to each of those um people who have submitted uh in Council I think it was s or 8 A7 was the 8 Alpha 7 was the add attachment should have been at the dis for you yep um because some of these that we received just as recently as yesterday or late yesterday uh but if there's anyone else in the audience that would like to come up and talk about item8 as so do want to clarify Mary do you want to limit it to the concept plan and go through each item or do you want to do all public discussion for all planning items at this time we can do it by item or or let's do it generally then if we can see on the numbers Let's Do It generally given the oo all right so uh that that in mind items 8 a 8 B 8 C and 8D this would be the opportunity if anyone would like to make a public comment Mr Mayor other than what I just mentioned the items for item 8A we do have have public card comment submitted for item 8 C okay uh so if I could uh invite Miss bran my name is Karen brummond and I live at 8985 Beck told Road um here in corren thank you so much uh good evening Council I'm here and I just want to make a quick comment because um I was at the council meeting um in the capacity of Gaz on when the Heather Meadows um application was tabled and so I was able to hear some of your discussion and I recall sort of um where we got to where we got um or where you got to where you got in terms of feeling like is it really an advantage to give someone development rights um when they're preserving Farmland in a large plot that will still be um farmed but like not have access to the individuals who are getting their homes so it was at that point in the discussion that everyone kind of pause and said gosh is that really actually a value and so I just want to address that tonight um I want to start by saying that uh the American Farmland trust has a phenomenal project called farms under threat and they actually um have a ton of projections with interactive maps so you can go on to their website um and they have a um explore the future of farmland for 2024 and you have all of these models that you can go through in terms of what happens if we just continue with development as it's happening right now what happens if we take into consideration um doing it where we're preserving Farmland where it's best Etc all these different models so uh that's where I got a lot of my information but it's also been confirmed by multiple other sources and sort of by a big wave in the industry but in 2012 the average age of an American Farmer was nearly 60 years old and so what that means right now is that there's a lot of farmers retiring there's a lot of farmers um passing away their kids are inheriting the land and then they're selling it and also a lot of people who just recognize when you're as close to a city as we are that your land has more value being sold and I say more value in terms of dollars um than it is to continue to farm and the biggest obstacle facing New farmers which the largest demographic for New farmers is women under 40 unfortunately I do not qualify as under 40 uh but the biggest obstacle facing those new Farmers is difficulty in obtaining land um because of the cost and if you don't come from a generational farming family it's super hard to get access in between 1992 and 2012 31 million Acres of Farmland were lost to development and that wasn't just in cities that was also in rural areas what that equates to is on the the the on the low end is three acres per minute of Farmland lost in the United States alone the high end is about 4.3 Acres of Farmland so I am here to say that the system is not perfect there are issues within farming industrial Farmers they need to be held accountable for their impact water and soil conditions um there's tons of issues that could be addressed but that's not what the issue is here tonight the issue is does granting those additional development rights for maintaining a larger plot of land for farming have any value and I'm here to say that it does Farmland produces goods usually food but not always and these goods are available for consumption which generates economic input the more widely these uh this production whether it's food whether it's trees whatever it is but the more widely it's available then the lower the cost is to the end consumer even if that's feed like my meat will be less expensive for me to sell if my feed is less expensive for me to buy the the the costs increasing always get passed on to the consumer so when it's widely available there's a lower cost well operated Farms care for the soil air water and they produce viable ecosystems and while a farm on its own may not have many employees directly the agricultural industry as a whole employs millions and all sorts of fields from manufacturing Machinery inputs to researchers retailers packagers Etc so that that Machinery that they need to use to run their Farm has to be produced has to be maintained um has to be improved and then I also truly believe that there's a value of just having an agricultural literacy within our community it is no joke that The Closer you are to high density urban areas less people eat fruits and vegetables they think their meat comes from the store there's just a a an ignorance surrounding the food system and how our food gets to where it needs to go so I'm really here to say that the next generation of farmers should be supported and not opposed and in this case this application is a father and son it's an upand cominging young um farmer I don't know them personally so I'm not here on their behalf other than in as a member of the community but the sale of that bit of land that they're going to develop out might be the very um income generating like what they need to actually run their farm for the next 30 Years most farmers do not get to farm full-time it's their job and then they have another job that they that they go do and that's because our our system broken but while we're working to fix what needs to be fixed in agriculture Solutions like this one where we can offer more development rights for larger maintained plats of land can allow that land to stay available for agriculture while we're working on um improving uh the food system or the agricultural system and its value to our communities in general thanks so much for your time thank you thank you Comm anyone else for items eight A B C or D okay then I think we can move on to oh I I do want to talk about ched Farms okay come on up I'm Sharon chastic and I reside at 7600 Maple Road my husband Stan and I and our three children moved here in June of 1971 we had our business jtic green houses Incorporated on this same property Stan worked on the Wastewater commission and was awarded a plaque in April 2004 for his dedication to the city of corkran Stan died of cancer in October 2014 our sons and their wives took over the business a few years before Stan's death our son Jeff died in a horrific accident in September 2021 the decision was made to close the business two could not run it as it took all four to make it work my name is in at St theres and I plan to move in September 2024 but I cannot afford to pay the taxes at 7600 Maple Hill Road and pay rent at St teres plus all other living expenses I have to admit that turning 80 and the stress of trying to sell my place is starting to wear on me Beth and all her colleagues have worked very hard at meeting all your demands and it seems like one problem is solved and you come up with another roadblock it is very discouraging in closing I have to say that we always kept our place looking neat but becomes more and more of an ey sort it needs development new homes beautiful surroundings and families to join aing Community thank you thank you thank you okay anybody else then if not we'll move into item 8 a is Natalie or k Kendra mayor council this is a sketch plan for the Newman Haven Eco farm community at 8750 Trail Haven you go to the next slide for me um this is a 5 and 1 half acre site guided in zone rural residential it's in the country outside of the Musa and um next slide and on the bottom is the concept uh plan for the the project and and it's very similar looking today in terms of the structures there's an existing home and an existing full barn on the site today the community does own the property they're a nonprofit and they have um requested feedback on their concept for really two separate uh uses happening an organic farming Collective which they described in their narrative and a place of worship and uh farming is a permitted use in the rural residential district um as is residential uh places of worship or are a conditional use permit so on the site plan you can see the existing home on the North side and the existing barn on the south side of the lot and the remainder of the site is farmed today um next slide so the concept plan includes the potential for expansion of the existing pole barn um with a new parking area on the east side of the the I'm calling it a pole bar because that's what it is today but their intent is to make that at a worship facility um they've provided in the concept plan the required number of parking stalls uh I did note in the staff report that there is a sign on the building and our code does not allow signage in the rural residential district of any type um which I think may be an oversight um but it doesn't allow signs can I ask a question about that doesn't the state require a sign well you can have an address sign and that's what the state would required oh okay um so anybody can have that but um simply don't allow it in the r residential um can we run into it with the uh Harley repair facility that we didn't allow a a sign but the state required it so they had to put a sign there right and that little type of a sign address sign is would be permitted that's true was it address or the name of the business I think that had the name of the business on it as well okay there was a whole lot going on there but in any just to be clear they'll probably have to have a sign there um uh Landscaping would be added um I did note in the staff report historically when we've had building additions um we've required a landscaping um to be based on the addition this is a change in use so the council might want to provide some feedback about the amount of landscaping proposed whether it's adequate for the change in use next slide um we talked quite a bit about the multiple uses or the the two uses on the site and really the the place of worship should be considered the principal use and then the parking the farming and the existing home are kind of accessory to that um while the farm operates separately from the community they are related and and could be considered part of the mission of the um um Community the home that's existing today is not being lived in today um and the applicant has indicated they don't intend to live in it they'll use the garage and the home for store it related to the farm uh and they may use the home for cooking for different um events at the place of worship um and I noted in the staff report it's very common St John's is a great example to have a house that that someone does live in accessory to a place of worship but that is not what they're intending at this time um also if they do add on which again this is a concept plan we wanted to note that any additions to the building would require the building exterior to be updated at least 25% of the building exterior to be updated it's a pole barn uh and so they'd have to add some uh burer stone or siding or something with at least 205% the pole barn they've met with the building official to talk about sprinklers that may need to be added and um it really depends on the final design of that building and henpen County would need to approve connecting that pole barn um to the septic on site uh or identifying that it would need to be expanded so that at the sketch PL PL stage we simply don't know that so I'm just identifying that's a future issue to be resolved um the next slide please um if the council is supportive of request and and I would say the request tonight the sketch plan the main focus is the place of worship because the collective is permitted the farm is permitted um today so the issue is do you support the the campus uh with the place of worship if so their next step would be to come in for a site plan and a conditional use permit which would then be a public hearing at the Planning Commission before coming back to you um so I'm happy to answer questions but it is a sketch plan so really as you know providing good feedback to the applicant helps them make decisions and they are here this evening and I I know happy to answer questions or provide comments thank you any I have a question go for do I understand you correctly that staff is recommending uh considering the home as an accessory use not an accessory structure well yeah that's a that's a question I thought I kind of phrased it as a question but yes I was thinking that um like the rectory at St John's or I would call it a rectory I don't know what they call it um the house accessory to St John's I was thinking this could be considered that alternatively if we called it an accessory structure then um uh they would need a variance to the accessory structure size so I I think that's something Council should talk about and a yard variance too right because it do we have would wouldn't it require a yard variance if it would be in the front yard yeah right we need that too right but you know to me the home is a structure it's not a use right a home is a structure right well a home is use but this building is a structure I I would well but how can a home be a use our code calls permitted use includes single family homes per permitted use yes okay but the home itself is a structure I'm not talking about how you use it I'm saying we're we want to call a house something that it's not it's not a use it's a structure right guess I think what I was trying to get out with the comment and I think this is a good conversation is at St John's they have a church and a school and the house that I don't know I know if the minister lives in there or not but that's a very common setup with religious institutions um and that's permitted by our code that is not what's proposed to be happening here um but that house is an accessory structure to this facility so I guess what what I am asking for is feedback that is how we approached it as a team we talked about this at DRC and we felt like that made the most sense but council could certainly disagree and provide other direction that this should be considered an accessory building that would require a variance for size and a variance to be in the front yard for this existing building I have a couple more questions so the property if I if I understand this correctly the property is changing use going from a homestead to a worship area correct yep okay so the home could be classified as a legal non-conforming accessory structure correct I think the home could be reclassified that way yes okay in terms of size but the problem is it's conforming to code now as it is and it would actually be the change that would make it non-conforming so how can we do that I don't think we're permitted to do that what I would say council member is the that's those are great questions that I think uh the City attorney and I would need to work through if the council was supportive of the concept I think we could find a path forward but if the council is concerned about the concept then we should know that as well all right so just so that I'm I'm clear um I guess I have a hard time reconciling the sketch plan with the city code I have trouble finding that both buildings could exist if the pole barn is expanded as proposed and so my feedback at this time is that a solution to this problem may exist but I would recommend that the applicant uh do additional research with either our City Attorney at the applicant's expense or their own attorney that's all I have thanks um anyone else have any thought yeah can I ask this yeah to read the school down the road sure go for it you're up um the home being a quasi home would it be or whatever I don't know what sort of a Nuance where is where are the applicants so I can ask oh okay so like um I struggle with then does that need to be licensed as a commercial property in a residential district if it's going to be used for I don't know how that works with a if it's an accessory to the church or if an it's a non-living accessory to the farm we have different codes for commercial properties and if people are going to be in theory no one's going to be living in there but it's going to have bedrooms and a k commercial type kitchen or whatever I don't know someone needs to work on the descriptor for what it what it is so we can if we're interested in the concept to figure out how to license it it's just a odity and I I mean you and I are sort of asking different questions but along the same line um and then they got that that culdesac is that conform is that okay to just have that culdesac go it probably wouldn't be theread it's a farm access is all it is that's a feel fair enough it's just a yeah would be permitted equipment turn around yeah and then um is the organic Farmland relevant to this conversation even like you could have a organic farm anywhere you just don't like if I you may be maybe I have an organic farm and you don't know about it like you don't actually have to identify it on the map that there's less discussion probably needed on that that's an accepted use an accepted use yeah so who cares about that part right well I it doesn't tie into the worship area like you're there's no connection they maybe the people that go go there also like organic food but there's no actual I don't know don't approval for that this is help I think yeah if even if there wasn't support for this uh from Council they could go probably for with an application to just to clear the application up I don't know if that's relevant other pieces are the the for me it's the worship facility and the house are the only thing to is relevant is that the house is being used to store the tractor and the the seeds or whatever and and and produce that's comes out of there that instead of as a living space I think that's the only reason it's particularly relevant and organic or not is not relevant except that that's part of the story they're trying to tell so I don't know if it makes sense then again if you're storing seed as a cooperative and a business in a structure then that all of a sudden isn't a home and has to be classified as a business I think from a tax perspective I think that we received questions in some emails about how does it get taxed and I think that's a question for the county assessor that we can bring back if it moves forward to understand that we don't license Farms we don't license businesses in corkran but um how they would get taxed we license businesses to the extent that if there are uh a number of different people coming to the house you know like the number is like 10 trips a day or something if all of a sudden um this house becomes a place where everyone comes to buy organic stuff and so that becomes I I would make sure you guys know what you're doing when it comes to the code cuz you're you're walking into like yeah it's this isn't a bad idea it's it's just such a weird combo of stuff that I think it's almost too early to even offer an opinion because nothing is straight in the what's going to be classified as what that's my opinion about it I don't have I can't have an opinion until we you figure out what it is you're doing and whether it matches what it is the code has to say about it any other thoughts or questions I'm look at the looks the puzzles and stuff I let me let me know before you get going let me know if I'm off base we just had a concept plan come to us off of Oak of a concept of a worship Place those kind of things and we did not support that in rural residential our comments up here at that time was we have ordinances where churches can go and that was not a place and then that application was pulled so in my mind this is almost the same thing if we were to support this what repercussions come if if they're two different things I support the arganic farm this is a beautiful property with a decent pole shed there's concerns from Neighbors a neighbor neighboring Farmers this is an organic um Farm what is the owner going to do to protect their Organics when the farmer close to them is spraying insecticide herbicides for his corn field soybean field those kind of things the the farmer is not going to do anything to protect that land if that farmer plants field corn and they have a plot of seed corn or sweet corn there that field corn pollination is going to screw up that sweet corn so we're we're starting to cross over I don't believe a church belongs in this area it is not a use that I see in our ordinances and stuff correct me if I'm wrong it is an allowed use in rural residential it is allowed through a conditional use permit which means that you stipulate condition so that you can make it fit within the district okay so kind of the same then Natalie is as a place over there aren't a lot of parallels though a lot is different than the previous so the previous example that you were talking about was an iup for a home occupation license because he wanted to operate classes house so that was um similar but not a conditional use permit and part of the reason why that went away is because it was determined he was not living at theit house as a homestead and so he could not qualify for home occupation and we told him if he wanted to move forward he needed to apply as a condition permit for not even the same kind of this this applicant has been very upfront that they are not living at the property and that this that their intended use is to use it for place of worship and they also want to have as part of their mission is the Farmland so the fact that the that they're organic and the nearby area is not necessarily organic farming I don't think that that's Up For Debate to I think that's great to let the applicant know that that's a concern so they can adjust accordingly but that I don't think we really have any say over and then the other component being um you do not need a home occupation license or any type of Licensing as a farm today to be able to operate as a farm whether you have multiple people coming to the farm to do some type of community garden or some kind of employees or volunteers and you can have a farm produce stand today as a farm okay so that those are some differen key differences um so thank you I just want to call up last one I think the information in here about the added parking lot we don't need to control runoff that parking lot do is that would that parking lot be designed to keep all of the runoff on this property or prevent it from Rolling off into other properties that's a pretty good siiz footprint for a parking lot was said under acre we didn't need to worry about it I I kind of disagree with that well what the no that's not what it said but we don't need a storm water permit but they still have to comply with all the storm water rules okay so they don't need a a permit because it's under an acre but they're still subject to all of those run rules okay all right I read it fast so I appreciate it it's confusing so that's fair um Mr Mayor I know it might be helpful to have the applicant I think he's prepared to kind of tell you more about his um St as well I mean when you finish your questions because I think some of the questions that have been asked he might be able to answer a little bit about sounds good JY do you have anything you wanted to C I don't have questions I'd be happy to hear from the applicant I my than good evening my name is kti agal and I'm resident of 6035 lanwood Lane in Plymouth uh I would like to thank uh to the city staff and uh to Mr Mayor and the city council member to give us the opportunity to talk about this uh this unique concept of what we are looking at it I was just hearing the previous comments uh from the city uh resident and she talks about few things that I would like to say that how this could be helpful in addressing some of those she mentioned that uh the farmers are the average age is 60 years kids are not interested to come to the farming and uh there are so many uh different things uh we don't even know that we meat is coming we think that it is coming from the store not thinking that how to bring the farm to the table and uh also she talks about the ignorance around the farming and other things so I understand completely that uh organic farming is completely acceptable use over here but at the same time I would like to a little bit talk about the organic farming and why we are passionate about the organic farming here uh so the sole purpose of organic farming is uh also the community involvement and the strong neighborhood over there uh I have uh added some of the links uh that has been from the University of Minnesota extension program and what they have uh supported and what they have uh guided is few giving Gardens or the Community Gardens where all the community come together and it's a different type of things where the volunteers are registered and they come and they uh help in uh doing the community uh gardening uh producing uh the organic food and also they have a very nice program which is the educational purposes so they give the training they give the education to the kids to the seniors to the community members so that they will be involved in that so that's pretty much what uh we would like to talk about the organic farming uh now why uh you know like this the thing is about um the place of worship we would certainly comply with all the rules what all the codes are and we will certainly work with the city staff or our own uh staff that we we could hire uh whether it is an attorney or the Professional Engineers and others and we will certainly work to make sure that the city will City guidelines and the codes will meet uh to to have that uh place over there so these are the few things that I would like to mention uh about that uh uh that all these things and also we would like to get the feedback on how so this organic farming is um is because the community members who came together to have this new mahavan uh Eco Community Farm is passionate about uh the things where we can live the healthy life and at the same time support our kids or educate our kids right now we are all it are you know like professionals and other professionals years and honestly speaking like most of us came from the farming Community like my grandfather has a big farm in India and uh I have no clue until I started looking at it and then I went to a couple of farms here then I see that how the farming is different in India versus over here and my kids even don't have even that much of exposure right they think that everything can be bought in the grocery stores uh so we would like to give not only just our kids but the kids in the community the opportunity where they can grow the relationship among themselves and also learn so that we can keep the farming in our society in our community so I'm happy to answer any questions related to the place of worship how it will be used what the purpose is why we are planning to have it why not going to the commercial district for the place of ship why specifically in the rural area and all of those I'm I'm very happy to answer those questions but we would really appreciate if you can get some feedback on whether it would be Council will be uh council members would be receptive of this type of plan in this place thank you any questions for the applicant what will prevent you from Building a Church on that property tear down both buildings and do that with an accessory building to the organic farming and such I it just to me it just it's kind of a stick out like a sore thumb kind of deal right on that property I I I'm not able to you've got a shed to store your build store your equipment and those kind of things you got Farmland you got all of this stuff the community side of what you're doing I understand all of that but to do a worship place there what makes it so that you will park no more cars on than in that parking lot what prevents you from parking down the streets those kind of things extremely Rural and you're bringing a how do I want to say it institutional an institution into a rural area I'm just it just doesn't make sense and again I'm attaching it a little bit to a previous deal right whole different application whole different kind of thing but it just it seems like then we weren't fair to that person by not supporting that it never came to us or they pulled their application and and all of the things that they talked about it just doesn't seem a right place to be uh certainly it's it's a very valid concern uh not only just for you but for our neighbors also uh when uh you know if the application move forward they would definitely come and talk about it uh there would be a concern that what happens if this grow our you know commun community grows and all those things will happen so I would like to just talk about our our community uh we have been meeting for last 15 years and uh we are around 10 to 12 family members that we are since last 15 years not I'm saying that we will not grow uh but certainly we will not grow to the point where we would have to build the new facility or build all those things in fact even the addition is just we are proposing to make sure that in case if any future needs are there and especially we would like to add the restrooms which are ADA compliance and other things that's the only reason that we are proposing the addition however the current facility that we have the pole band would be more than enough for what our current use and the future use would be I'm assuming that some City Cod will prevent us that uh not to have the bigger facility over there or if we have more cars than what it is intended for and if you hear the complaints then definitely we would be called here and we will be talked about it uh I was just listening to one of the uh city council meeting and I really like the point where the uh applicant came and she wanted to increase the time uh for her organization for her uh Festival uh not the festival but the uh fair for half an hour or 45 minutes and one of the comment was that she has been really good resident and she has been always comply with the rules and she has been always responsive and that's what the residents that's what the uh you know like uh Community member we would like to be we would not like to be the where that city council has to think about that hey what why we had approved it why we have to come back and uh discuss about all those things thank you for that's doing your homework thank you yes so regarding sorry go ahead no um to to your point counselor Baron Camp uh we can make a condition in a conditional use permit that parking has to be on site and so if there were to be parking on the street that would be reason to revoke the conditional use permit so there are some thresholds to be able to hold them to the promises there are some um yeah yeah that's a part of the that's the benefit of the conditional use permit and why you have it as a conditional use yeah I'm I'm hearing a lot from the surrounding folks and it just I'm one of the surrounding folks I'm about a mile away from this property and such and and if it is an allowed usage in in the raar residential area I just don't see this parcel being that a 5 acre parcel the sliver it is those kind of things if it stays the small type community that they're talking about I may support that I just I don't I don't I don't see it and then also you're already meeting in that in that home on Saturdays and Sundays I see it neighborhoods there the neighbor sees it and such so there's a lot of people questioning what's going on and what's happening again private property it's being used but it's not what it used to be and that was a very wellt yard very meticulous owner and those kind of things and they're seeing some of that stuff start slacking and they aren't they appreciative of what's going on [Music] so I I have very very much concerns on my side and a number of the neighbors talking to me so chairman did you have anything you wanted to to add so questions you had the way that I see the use I I don't have any problem with organic farming Community gardening I don't have any particular reason to have concern around being able to meet the cup criteria with this small scale of use I think if if it were you know 10 times the size or three times the size then I would want to see some more criteria around it and I think there are ways to structure the conditions in the cup where this can be okay uh I don't have particular worries about I'm considering what councelor lanterman said around can we create a legal non-conforming issue by allowing a change and I'm remembering when we talked about Heather Meadows last time I think it was Heather Meadows Last Time by allowing new lot lines to be drawn one of the structures would be in a required rideway area so we had to accept a lower level of ride of it seems to be similar to the kinds of things that we do regularly if it fits with the other code requirements and at the small scale that it is uh I I don't have particular concerns around that regarding the Landscaping requirements if if you're going to have a large large-ish uh parking lot in a rural area I would want to see that fully landscaped just like we would in uh a higher density residential area full screening headlights and so on um it looks like that's required I'm not sure that it is believe it I think it is I think that the code we've we've just sometimes not allowed the building addition or required the full building addition based on the um code requirements of the perimeter of the site or the square footage of the building sometimes we've based it historically on additions and that's why I wanted to raise it because I feel like something more than that's probably required do we want to see the full landscape count which I put in the staff report um which I think 66 trees something like that so that's good feedback okay and then in terms of lighting of the parking lot would there have to be safety lighting for Public Safety or would it be UNL Public Safety didn't say anything about that I um so I it's more if they have lighting they have to comply with our standards but I think that that could a use where we're flexible um or we could say we don't want lighting I I would prefer no lighting because of the area that yeah so I think that could be a conditional a condition used to the permit so okay and I agree with the concerns about parking off the site I'd want to see all the parking contained as well and that could limit growth to as part of the conditions and I'm kind of where I think both John and Mark kind of touched on I think it's a little still undefined exactly the processes that that the applicant may be going so it's hard to give full feedback on we don't know what exactly we're looking at um but I would if you want to proceed I would I would encourage you to work with staff and your team and try to nail that down um in terms of things I'd like to see if it does proceed Landscaping absolutely um I would I I don't know necessarily about that full number um trying to map that out in my head I would just as long as the parking lot is very heav heavy screened would be important to me um I would not be in favor of any change to the sign ordinance the district we better get clarification on the State sign ABS yeah ours doesn't matter if the states is different than ours I'm pretty sure it is okay was that would that be for just like a sign like on the street corner or on a building oh sorry on on the street corner mailbox or no I think it's more than that I think they have to have a bigger sign than just having it on their mailbox yeah that was the only time that's come up but I made not to check out that so I'd be okay obviously with what the state requirement is if that's what we have to do but I wouldn't be in favor of changing code other than that um I would like if this were to go forward to have the parking condition that Natalie you raised and Jeremy talked about um and and I do uh the organic farming aspect of it is interesting to me and I I'd be supportive of that aspect of it um it's a cool cool use that fits along with kind of what Ken was talking about and what you refer that K was talking about um so that aspect of it I don't have a problem with but in terms of the other parts that's what I'd like to see if it does move forward and I encourage you to work with staff to try to nail down um what shape that takes of an application can I add one like a lot of the a lot of the emails and comments that we have received to discuss the impact of the surrounding properties and I think it's worth noting that property just to the South has nothing it's empty Farmland um and then there are traffic concerns but one thing I think we ought to think about here is uh Trail Haven gets it's uh with the additional traffic one thing they did is on the other side of Trail Haven uh where where you pull out Trail Haven at 30 where the tree farm is they uh that section because if it gets torn out and torn up and crappy for lack of a better word when you pull from Trail Haven onto County Road 10 it takes a long time to get up to speed and that you know you sit there and spin and uh the more traffic you got a little you're going to increase the traffic flow in this little section and it's not the best the angle of the road to Trail Haven in that section it happen all the way up uh Trail Haven the angles are bad and it in most of the areas where the um an Trail Haven intersects with another road they put asphalt on it and it would probably be a good idea to have asphalt there for the increased traffic and wear on the road so people don't struggle to get on to County Road tent especially in the winter time um that will get packed down or whatever it's it creates a problem with additional traffic in that little so when we talk about impact to other people with respect to this project there will be a distinct acute impact on that section of Trail Haven I think we need to account for that staff any have any thought we want to do like ail uh I I think he was referencing a more of a commercial facility I believe u so that could be evaluated I isn't this kind of a commercial thing I guess if it's defined that way but I mean I think in that case it was trucks and and Commercial yeah so I think the the the equipment that uses it may be a differentiator between that and this in that specific case but um it's a fair question that we could look at further I think good point to raise because that is the type of impacts that I think the neighbors are concerned about I would also encourage you to work with the neighbors if you're looking at putting together an application um that goes a long way and some of those meetings can but it's very helpful do we know what traffic counts are at that intersection not off hand yes we do there are available online I'm wondering what fraction this would represent relative to current state don't have that information now but it's something that we could certainly have engineering look into we don't I don't know if we would need to do a full feasibility study but we could do aemo um sort of move forward I mean if this represents 5% of the traffic that's already there I wouldn't have concern if it's a significant fraction then maybe um ultimately the city is responsible for the safety of the road Network and as development happens we have to consider the impact of the development on that network but it seems likely this could be a low enough impact that we wouldn't trigger anything so I don't understand that could certainly look at that one last thing that I have just a question um I think it was in your narrative it was certainly was in the staff report about maybe like a one time a year Festival of some sort with about 75 people could you tell us kind of about that is it would it just be once yearly or how does that yeah so that is what when you looked at it we uh when we talk about the staff members then uh we said that we are looking for the facility that can accommodate up to 75 people but that is not the norm because if you look at uh in the narrative we have mentioned about the opening timings for the place of worship and also the opening times for The Organic F they do not coin coincide with each other they have different timings um and uh one of the thing that I would like to mention to you that why uh this is the small complication is because the timing is we we meet early in the morning uh on the on the week days uh on the just couple of cars would be there just one or two cars would be there and that's what it is there in the narrative and uh on the weekend it would be Friday uh it would be uh Friday and Sunday which would be around 8 to 10 cars that's what we are expecting on those things uh Sunday it might be like uh so I would like to just share my own personal story while we are talking about it will address couple of things on why we have the need for the uh place of worship and how it works normally uh so I I came to us in 2000 and then I met my uh future wife uh and I talked to her over the internet and then I said I'm going to make a trip to meet her in New Delhi so I went there and uh the place of uh meat that she picked was the place of worship uh so that's you can imagine that and and we did not even go inside of that place of worship so what it is the concept the culture is that if there is something the place of worship is there then they feel like going to that place and doing it so that's the certain that's the main reason that we would like to have it so that the volunteers are coming to volunteer but at the same time they have in mind that okay there is a place of worship that we are going to yet they are doing the volunteering work at the organic farm rather than just coming over there so it is not the continuous congregation that they will be sit at the same time all of them will be there at the same time and then all of them will be disperse at the same time so that will alleviate some of the traffic concern also that it is going like one car two cars that way uh also uh that will eleviate some of those concern but uh certainly it all revolve around that hey if we are going somewhere then is there any nearby place of worshipers and then we will spend time on doing some of the activities over there so that's the one of the reason that uh you know a place of worship is there so that the volunteers can of course be there and then do the work now if our goal is to increase the congregation for the place of worship we would have certainly go to the more uh place like the downtown or some other even in the Coran where we are developing the commercial place we would have gone over there but our main thing is to educate our kids to bring their neighborhood together and we have invited our neighbors and we would certainly make another attempt couple of attempts more and we would like to meet with them and explain to that what we are planning to do so we would continue to make that effort and try to uh try to address their concern try to address whatever uh their concern at it is uh it is not good at our part also that you have to hear from them rather than they hearing from us and asking the questions directly we have sent in the ma and we met couple of them but we will certainly continue to do that and we address their concerns in this thank you can I one last question go ahead uh I just I just want to make sure when that application comes in that meets the definition of place of worship yeah I don't need to hear it from you right now but I'll be Satisfied that I just want to make sure it does that's all yes the place of worship um it might even might make more sense to change it to place of assembly the way that it's really defined um but it it doesn't necessarily need to be a church but just a place where you're gathering for regular Services whether that with any type of Faith or spirituality that is the intent behind it uh the definition it certainly could have a different title it could be changed to be clearer so just try not to talk yourself out of it being a does why we say place of worship because then it will be disqualified from doing you know just I'm not going to tell you what I'm I'm just saying it has to fit a certain definition so let's be good about having it meet the definition so our C cuz if you're if you're organic farm and you're actually a commercial business then you may not be able to be allowed here well place of worship is allowed here um but potentially some commercial businesses wouldn't be allowed here like a Gathering Spot potentially wouldn't it that's what I'm saying about clarify your purpose and make sure that it's within the structure of our law and that you know don't um that's what you got to be careful about I'd say that every application just but like a a place of assembly we would consider like a a rotary club or the Lions can have a place of assembly but you couldn't put a Band Shell there I don't know if that's actually you can we have an event center oh okay well just make but that has different rules though it does have different rules but this this wouldn't qualify as an event center it does qual so our code calls a place of worship and it includes anything that's Prim primarily engaged in religious worship and the our understanding and speaking with the applicant is that this that they have spiritual services and that the organic farming is a deep rooted part of their spiritual Mission so that's why it's all kind of that's why it's all entangled and part of the application but it does meet the definition of place of worship currently in our code now could we nit nitpick at it and make it a little better so that um something that doesn't have like a clearly recognized Faith um to be able to qualify as place of worship we can certainly do that but any kind of spirituality I would assume I would say that that falls under religious worship so it spirituality and religion tend to go hand in hand so and they're open to all faiths my understanding so it's but it is they still have Services my my opinion your opinion are are relevant when it comes to the constructs of the law so like we just got to be careful about if Mark and I open a disco on be to Old Road and just say it's a a place of worship um and just say it's a place where we are Mindful and come together as a community and you know Zen or whatever we want to say we don't want other people to take advantage of our looseness when it comes comes to interpretation of of worship facility is where you can be mindful and spiritual like that's that doesn't fit the legal definition of a place of worship it might be our opinion but we have to fit we have to have places of worship be just actual fit within the code of the law of places of worship otherwise anybody could call anything they do a place of worship and do whatever they want and we don't want that and I'm not suggesting it's happening here I'm just suggesting we get it right on the definition you would have the cup criteria to control the volume of the Disco If you had but you know what I'm saying if they're not allow you know we can't just say they're not allowed but if you have some place where you meditate then that's a place of worship um I'm not saying that it is I'm saying we just the stuff has to meet the definition and the criteria and that's why it's so unclear to me if it does or not what's helpful is is within the cup we could provide some clarification in terms of how it meets or is defined it say by a definition that that is acceptable but more importantly is also communicating that understanding and meaning to other people so if anyone questions it the cup should definitely clarify that so and I think it's unfortunate I feel like we got a little bit off track I mean we really feel like this is a place of worship and so the the question to the council is not about whether you like The Organic Farm because that can be there today without you weighing in on it the question is whether the council would support them moving forward to come in with the cup for a place of worship I wouldn't the house is irrelevant we can work through that we think it's we shouldn't say it's irrelevant but it's something that could be worked through but the question tonight for the council is um you know could you support a place of worship on this site if certain things were addressed I think but you can't just carve out everything else that's in the application and ask us to only consider whether or not this is a place of worship it's a it's a holistic application with a lot of parts to it and whether you think it matches or I think it matches doesn't matter the the application in in its entirety is what the council needs to come to a decision on eventually correct well no because the house and the farm you don't have to weigh in on but you do have to weigh well I do if you want to change a structure to a use then I am going to weigh in on it because you can't do that you can't take something that is currently conforming to city code and change it and put it outside of compliance I guess I just don't know how to go back with the applicant after the feedback tonight I mean I think council member Nichols I thought that was very clear and I think I'm pretty clear on Dean but I'm just I mean if the applicant feels like they got good feedback then we can move forward can I ask one more question do we have anything like this in our city now as far as it a church in a residential area or a place of worship in a residential area what any cup whatever this is going to be is there anything similar to this I don't know of anything off the top of my head well I mean I would say all of our churches are in residential area Hope was at one point and and they were all in residential areas that were rural at one point I think I think hope is a really great example having talked with Brian about trying to locate that spot for the church because there were very similar discussions about this when they established that church where was the right place to put it uh how did you work with neighbors and originally it was on it was on the east side of 116 right uh and that was not where uh folks wanted it so it eventually ended up in a different location through collaboration and and collab uh a lot of discussion and so you know to the point that Kendra's making that the helpful feedback I think the things that are important to take away uh is is for the the concept here is is this something that they could work with staff to get to a place that could potentially be a collaborative solution uh and uh there's been some feedback that said yes there's some unanswered questions in terms of clarification of some uses and and there's some legal feedback that we need to get on some of that that we don't have right now but this is a concept plan uh and so back to Kendra's question do you feel like you've gotten the feedback that you need to proceed I would certainly uh prefer to have a little bit more uh feedback which is uh which is kind of more not vague type of things I shouldn't say vague but uh I would like to answer any questions what I can right now uh so that it will make it more clarified to the council members uh that is lacking uh in this so I certainly understand uh you know why the organic farming and other things it is uh just because that is the purpose that we were looking for the bigger land and which has the some farming Place uh along with that as far as the commercial I completely understand that City uh the definition of commercial for city is different than this for a resident or for a citizen like me uh the for me the commercial means when I'm exchanging money and I'm getting benefited or I'm profiting out of it uh so with that definition uh this is not a commercial place again I'm not saying that this is as for the city also is not a commercial place but for me as a resident for me as a citizen it is not a commercial place because it is all run by the volunteers no producers will be sold to anyone for a single Dy and the excessive produce will be used for the charitable CA which include the nursing facilities or food banks and other things yeah you get you run into TR trouble um when you define commercial activity with the scope of uh exchange of monetary value so just be be careful about that because you're having kind of people that's what we just need to Define things place of worship what that house is going to turn into whether it's a commercial area um and what you're talking about in my opinion defines Commerce whether money is exchanged or not you just got to fit you you got to figure that out okay um what kind of Commerce it is uh so those are four things that are big question marks and we don't know the answer to that it's hard to give an opinion on something when it's is equally vague to us what you're trying to do even though you've tried now we're saying well we don't know about this we we don't know about this we don't know about that we don't know about whatever um so um I I'm not getting I'm not saying like don't do it but it's like trying to mix a bunch of stuff together and it doesn't quite fit and uh seasonal produce stand I think would allow them to sell if they wanted to that's a permitted use so I don't understand the concern about commercials like what have you heard that makes you concerned I haven't heard anything but if you have if you have a place where people come and do stuff receive give receive give uh it's a commercial activity so um I you can't just have just like in any other part of the city uh we have restrictions on what can happen at a particular um place like I couldn't open a lemonade stand at the end of my driveway and give away lemonade free to anybody who wanted it and have more than like 10 10 trips a day it would be considered a commercial activity so um there's def there's there's definition of commercial activity within the city code and it's not just about exchange of dollars or whatever and that and there is a difference between being able to farm your land and having people come with some exchange to have have um what you're talking about and so there and I still am like is it still at is it a place of worship or is it a Gathering Spot or is it a place that you set up to support the organic farm so like if it's a sort of a place of worship but really it's about the organic farming then you have a business and not a place of worship if it's a place of worship and it's sort of like a place where people gather but there is a there is a def definition of place of worship that we want to be concerned about because otherwise we get into the problem as City Council of people just s because the co the code on places of worship is different if if it would be easier to build a church on the corner of Ten and Trail Haven than a Wallmart uh of any size because churches have a clear carve out in State statue of where they or places of worship of where they can do and what they can do and that kind of stuff so if you if I really wanted to build something I could just say well it's it's a place to worship so I should get all these car vs and I'm not suggesting you do that you're I'm not suggesting you're doing that but we got to make sure as a city council that if somebody comes in here with and says their place of worship and they get exceptions to a lot of rules that they actually are and and combining it with this other stuff actually confuses it even more sure like if you said here's what we're going to do we're going to build a place of worship here we're going to whatever um it would be easier to pass than if you said we're going to build a place of worship and by the way we're also going to have this house and then we're going to have people that come and go and do Commerce which even if it doesn't pay they're still doing stuff like that messes up the the uh the the church thing because technically also if you have a church and a big percentage of the church's activities actually have nothing to do with the church so if you open a church there and 80% of the activities are your organic farming what they'll do is they'll say actually you're not a church because there's a certain percentage of activity level and you don't get to have the same carve out in the city structure so even if I loved what you're doing and I think I do I like I we plant stuff and and I attend church you got to clarify what you're asking for here and you have to fit it in with you're um it it's such a com it's it's not a good application in its current form because there's no Clarity on the on it on a lot of stuff it's a concept right now yeah it's it's the idea just real quick I don't mean to go on but you asked so that's that's what's going on thank you thank you it is really help one more real quick question is currently it is it is taxes are based off a residential Homestead but nobody's living there how can that happen and then it's identified as new Maven ecofarm community how does all of that tie in if nobody's living there how can it be homesteaded so it's based on I don't know the homestead rules but I think it just it hasn't dropped off yet it's based on a certain point of the year so when they bought the property it already basically already been certified as a homestead for the year so it's not going to drop off till next year so that's with the county and it is registered as a nonprofit with the county now and taxes are due at this point as far as how it could theoretically change they get the place of worship cup that would be a question for henan County and then does that turn into I don't know that it would be there's only I my understanding and i' have to confirm it with County Assessor is that the religious institution there's there's very specific thresholds that you would have to meet in order to tax exemp I remember remember that so for something that is um not necessarily A recognized faith for the purpose of the tax exemption it might to be considered a nonprofit and I believe they would still have to pay taxes okay happy to confirm that um as if we to move forward um and then I guess I just as a point of clarification I see churches all the time with Community Gardens are we saying that we're open to it being a church but we wouldn't want any type of gardening is that a hang up think that's not at all okay well I'm just trying to understand the feedback so that I understand how that aspect of it work they're yeah General favor for if I could try and provide some clarity on how I thought so so I would point out that we do have other activities happening with other churches that by by the way that you're characterizing Commerce whether they're uh having Child Care Facilities within the church whe they're also education institutions those those things are happening in places of worship in the community right now uh and so I just wanted to clarify I don't think that's uh where the concern was for council member botom I think the concern is both the Optics and potentially the legalities surrounding the actual Commerce so uh if if people are coming and there's there's a different kind of exchange there are some when they're running the child care facilities they have to have some other legal institutions that they're answering to and when you're running a a school there's also some other implications there and so I think that's part of the point that he was making is is right now is saying that this and there's concerns because of the lack of clarity that with the overlapping there might be some other obligations there that aren't under this body but are important to consider did I capture that correctly well yeah and I would add if a church has a child care facility and there if it's a there is a there are different tax ramifications for the child care and if the child care is their overwhelming business model and the church is just an afterthought then they lose their tax exempt status because there are court cases all over about the qualifications of the status of a religious institution or place of worship if they actually in the business of doing something else so that that's the stuff that I'm thinking about did that provide C like like as you have that overlap there's other implications that might go beyond this body uh but also impact this body yes and so that clarification is pretty critical and Mark did you have something I think yeah so again thank you we will address all the concerns and we would like to move forward with the application but we work with the staff member and uh with other uh concerns that we had uh and again like we all talked about it that the concept was that just like n explained that the churches when we have like some of the uh members that I know they go and uh uh to the city of Maple Gro where there is a church and they rent out the lot 10 x 10 or some small uh lot for the uh producers that you can grow the vegetables and that is what we had it in mind that that would be doing but certainly when we talk about too much about the organic farming as our main thing then that raises certain other questions and other things so we would definitely address all of these uh things and we'll will prepare our appucation cool story how you met your wife me nice to meet you tonight that is what it is and you will believe it or not but most of our road trips are planned around the places of worship also so we will first look at it where the places of our ships are and that's how we plan the road trip so thank you thank you thank you okay on to 8B which is the uh rural commercial um how survey results yes the so this was a survey that was staff had been directed to post to get some information from our residents on how to handle subdivision in relation to development rates um or not using development rates going for forward in our rural commercial District next slide so uh to create as part of the survey creation uh staff created a story map which explained the basics of our development rates program and history as well as explained our Ral commercial district and then at the end of the story map because we did feel it was critical for people to have that basic understanding to be able to provide meaningful feedback uh they had to go to the very end of the story map to get the link to participate uh in the story and it the survey was a there were several questions but the heart of it was a visual preference survey providing six options as to what different divisions could look like to control development within the rural commercial and the survey was made available for three weeks from Friday May 31st through Sunday June 14th next slide mailed invitations were sent out to all properties within 500 ft of both the rural commercial and the transitional R commercial District 49 unique addresses received a u invitation to participate however we also wanted it to be available to the larger City and so announcements were made on the city's website and social media accounts to solicit broader participation uh as well as the council Planning Commission and parks and Trail commission members were uh passed on the link to share with their social networks uh so to to try to broaden the participation and additionally we had a flyer posted to City Park so we tried to figure out ways that we could um harness what uh freeways to get the word out there next slide so the for the survey results we did receive 36 responses and six respondents received a mailed invitation so a response rate of about 16.7% which is not ideal uh but it was a short collection window uh the there were three respondents that own commercial property within the roal commercial and then three respondents do not currently live in corkran but own property in corkran two of those respondents are currently building what they call their forever home to reside in corkran uh 19 respondents lived within the Musa and then 16 respondents lived or owned property outside of the Musa so that's what the pie chart is trying to show next slide and this is a map um of the locations of different addresses for the people who participated so again we had some within the Musa and then we actually had quite a few um sorry some that were in the rural area and then we had quite a few that participated within the Musa next slide so eight respon as far as the concept of development rights eight responses respondents stated they had development rates shown on the development rights map when staff went in to confirm the addresses we actually confirmed that only two had property with development rights based on the addresses provided this does suggest that more educational resources regarding development rights could be helpful for the general public so it's just an interesting finding and then two respondents stated that they hope to subdivide their property on the future and only one of which currently has development rights to do that next slide respondents were asked to rate the importance of eight design features as they relate to the creation and preservation of Royal character on a scale of one which was not very important to five very important so we specifically asked on the concept of low density large lot sizes Open Spaces dark sky low traffic large setbacks Green Space and limited commercial development next slide so uh the response basically what this is is we um of the 36 respondents we basically added everything up to get an idea of how important they all are based on the different scores everyone provided so next slide provides uh the design features and Orders of ranked importance open space was the most important followed very closely by Green Space and then we go to dark sky low traffic low density limited commercial development rank six out of the eight and then large lot sizes large setback next SL and then we asked what other features Define real character to you and the three most common themes that arose included a quiet and calm envir ironment presence of Farmland at various scales so not just the larger Farms but Hobby Farms and then preservation of natural areas next slide and then they asked do you believe commercial zones are important to have uh there most people did say yes 32 of the 36 respondents confirmed that they do want to see commercial zones next slide what type of businesses should be in this uh commercial rural um again this just kind of gives you an idea of of the current uses most of them currently allowed there's a couple in there that we've been talking as part of our update such as vertical farming um I think I also included event centers in here just because um we allow those in our Ro residential but we don't allow that in the roal commercial so just trying to get an idea of what uses are we missing uh that we could potentially add next slide are we are what is what got 27 votes well we'll get there next slide oh okay so the top five uses is the green houses and nurseries that was the 27 votes uh second followed by was followed by restaurants third retail goods and services four Civic buildings and then the fifth highest uh use was motor fuel stations and then we had an area for write in responses uh so some wrting responses we received include a fire station Farmers Market agricultural Co-op anything Farm related light industrial and Retail a library and solar power farms next slide and then the uh survey asked what concerns do you have when thinking about commercial development in the rural area the five common themes were traffic noise development intensity visual Aesthetics and environmental impacts what are the most important regulations for the world commercial uh again the there were several provided and we were asked we asked them to check all that apply and then as I think the next slide gives the top so the top three regulations identified as important were Den limit landscaping and screening and lighting and then we received again several WR in responses so uh the uh important regulations it varied from type of business uh a mandatory traffic light at County Road 19 and County Road 30 um obviously that is not within the city control that totally can appreciate that um flexible standards based on use regulations of toxic materials and air quality water usage aquifer contamination prevention noise someone put none I I don't know if they meant nothing additional or if they meant no regulations at all um traffic or End hours so then we get into the actual visual preference survey and six options were provided uh in the uh we started with the status quo which was the use of the development rates uh the second option was a commercial density of one in per 10 acres the third was commercial density of one per five acres and then we did a minimum lot size so option four was a minimum lot size of 10 acres option five is a minimum lot size of five acres option six is 2.5 acres as the minimum lot size next slide so there's a couple the thing about the development rates is there's a couple different variations that you can end up using so you could theoretically use development rats to have fairly equally sized Lots or you can choose to have some smaller Lots as low as 2 and a half acres which is our current minimum lot size um in the rural commercial and then you could balance that with some larger Lots such as 20 acres in size so that's what the visuals trying to show that currently the development rights has some flexibility in how we get there but the density would be 1 and 10 so to make the rank oh and there were three different ways that we ranked these options first I asked them can I ask a question on there sure on the uh the development rights question is this specifically rated related to development rights in residential or is it specifically related to commercial this survey was specifically and how they are would be used in a rural commercial setting so in this one the minimum lot size would be two and a half acres and the story map was very specific and that and as part of the reason why we tried to have some background information before you could access the survey so that that could be made fair enough um so there were three different ways that we had the six options rated first was just on a scale of one to five is this not very preferred way to have development in the world commercial or five being very preferred and then we had um asked them to rank them on comparatively so you have six choices what's your first choice second choice third fourth fifth six however though it didn't quite work the way I wanted it to and that some people put a first choice on one and then put everything else as fourth choice or some people just put everything as last choice that was just one respondent in particular but the to make it usable U because there was some um I still felt that there was valid data there to make it useful I broke it down to which options um how many First Choice rankings they received and then uh we went I went through and basically everyone got 21 points points and it was a sign so if they did first second third fourth fifth First Choice got six points second choice got five points so on so forth if they did something where all of them are ranked the same then everything got um 21 points divided by six so is it three points each three three and a half points each sorry math isn't working right now so that's why we have three different ways to look at it so on this on for question option one on a scale it received 115 points and then on the rank Choice 19 respondents chose it as their first choice and it overall received 166 points next slide option two again would actually look very similar to our development rights program the key difference being that once something is zoned rural commercial previous use of development rights would become irrelevant and so again that was made clear in the story map and and I did try to have that note in the survey as well on a scale of 1 to five received 96 points and as a ranked Choice six respondents rated it as their first choice and overall received 155 points next slide option three is a commercial density one of five scale of one to five it received 69 points rank Choice there was three respondents that ranked as the first choice and they received 120 points overall option four received 108 points on the scale and then the rank Choice was five respondents ranked First Choice receiving 145.5 points option five the minimum lot size of 5 Acres uh received 75 points on the scale and then Brank choice no one brinked it as their first choice and it received 101.5 points overall lastly option six uh on the scale received 74 points two respond in ringed as their first choice and it received 68 points overall So based on just the scale the of not very preferred to very preferred option one had the most points followed by option four which was the lot size minimum lot size of 10 acres option the third choice was option two being commercial density of one in 10 option five was the fourth choice minimum lot size of five acres minimum lot size of 2 and a half acres was fifth Choice and then the sixth Choice was the one and five uh for the rank choice So based on the frequency of First Choice rankings option one had the most First Choice rankings um again followed by um option two being the commercial density one and 10 um third choice being minimum lot size of 10 acres fourth choice being commercial density one and five fifth choice being lot size of 2 and a half acres sixth choice being minimum lot size of five acres and then when we did the point system for the comparative ranking again option one was the First Choice by 166 points and Then followed Again by the two 10 acre options and then we get down to um option four being the commercial density of one and five fifth best option being minimum lot size of 5 Acres Last Choice being the minimum lot size of 2 and a half acres so the limitations of the study and I want to be very transparent about it is this is not a representative ex sample of the city in the area uh I'm sorry it's not a representative sample of the city nor is it a representative sample of the area that is 500 feet within the commercial Rural and transitional rural commercial area so we want to be careful about broadly applying this but of the participants this is the information that we have and then the development rights and development standards can be complex topics with several caveats so the story map was my and visual A's attempted to provide a very simplified and engaging format to touch on these topics but I did receive some feedback from respondents that the topics were difficult to fully grasp uh the short survey collection window was also a limitation um and then the response rate from the mailed invitations was fairly low next slide more participation from residents there was more participation from residents living in the newer developments within our Musa than those who live most closely to the districts we're talking about however I did go through and remove the responses from those who live within the Musa and determined that it did not dress basally change the results uh once if you take out some newo responses you still have in first place the development rights as the preferred option in every category um and then I think sorry can you go back one more I think there was one more comment oh and then again yeah the rank choice just did not work as anticipated um and so I did the best I could to make that data usable next slide so then this just goes to show that again the status quo is the first option even with out the participants so we don't have to go through that too much more but um next slide next slide so then lastly there was a question on there do you have any other thoughts You' wouldd like to share with the city council as they consider updates to the real commercial and there was not a single common theme that I could pull from this so the all the responses are on there for you um I don't know if there is anything too particular to the conversation tonight but that might be valuable to consider and these slides are available uh on the the web page on the city where the survey was made available and that's what I have could Steph email that out to council to absolutely oh I did I did email it yesterday I must have missed it thank you any questions or comments for Natalie or about the survey I think could probably be something that we need to take in for a bit before we can make too much of it probably worthy of the public work session we get some on schedule anything else do we have is there something that we have to make a decision on not immediately no uh so this is um well so this is phase one so I think the idea was being we wanted to understand the this survey in order to be able to proceed we did have a work session that um memorialize the use of development rights in our rural commercial area um so if Council was ready to proceed with that then we could certainly get that on a public hearing if not then we'll have to take a look at uh adding a work session which we could I don't know if we can do today or if we would have to do that at uh next meeting our next work session is scheduled for August 8th it did seem like the data was consistent with current policy pretty broadly and even where alternate options had similar scores they ended up generating roughly the same kind of map so I be comfortable proceeding with the language that we had intended without a public hearing but people feel like we see value and meeting again to discuss I'm happy to do that were you thinking work session to discuss that aspect of it or just to digest the just to digest the the survey I think that this is this is a lot to consider yeah you know in the 20 minutes we've had yep um how I guess how does the rest of council feel about what Jeremy was talking about with the uh the language that we have ready to go forward with if unless we decide to change of course not all at once I wasn't there at at the work with the planing commission i u i don't think I was there you were there oh okay um does anyone have objections to proceeding with the plan that I what I would say is that there was a specific thing we were trying to address related to commercial there's like a sliver of land that's commercial that's zoned rural commercial and I think if we sent out a survey to the City and they said to every resident um would you be okay what's your fa what would your favorite would you rather no houses if you had a ranked offering no houses ever no more houses in corkran that would be the top by a mile by a thousand miles so um the result of so if you go with my hypothesis that if everyone if everyone had a vote as to whether we had any more houses in Corrin that one would win and that so shouldn't surprise us the one one with the less amount of anything and I mean I I'm I'm boor with that because I live in the country I like the country but um some we can't always just do that so some of the [Music] options um I think are I think it's it's more deep than the survey and um I think there's a little bit of a it some people that you had the question like do you do you own uh building rights and like it sounds like a lot of people think they own building rights yeah which is funny to me interesting finding like that is a I I really think that take the commer take the commercial um the Royal commercial out and the building rights for rural areas is what is keeping Corrin different than every other town and there's a neat history to that that that I've just recently learned about so uh former mayor Ken Gunther was cleaning out things as he's getting ready to move and uh he sent us the N the very first comp plan uh that corkran had in 19 78 and on page 21 of that document is when the whole development rights conversation started in 1978 with the same topic of conversation here the intention in 1978 uh as council member botma just talked about wanting to maintain open spaces and and try and maintain our Royal character uh it's outlined on page 21 in 1978 of the very first comp plan that was the intention then this isn't a new conversation is my point yeah so I think we're mixing the I think we're doing a lot of mixing of the residential with the rural commercial Concepts and it could be very confusing for people gotcha but so would you want further discussion before we when when is it roughly scheduled to so at this time it wasn't scheduled we were originally the timeline was um we were hoping that this would go to a public Hearing in June okay with Council decision in June um so we are second June meeting yeah so we are um at this time we I'm sorry we we understood quickly that uh when because Planning Commission was the one that wanted to understand what residents around the area thought about the change um and so I brought that to council and then Council directed me to do the survey um again and I encourage you to look at the story map I I I do believe it was very clear that this was how we're applying it to rural subdivision um and then the I'm sorry real commercial subdivision and so at that point when we did the when you authorized the survey we knew we weren't going to be on the timetable anymore so right now we don't really have a timeline I when we when the applicant came I think we said like we're going to do this and we're going to do it as soon as possible that was the agreement and I don't want to unwind that I don't know the I know the applicant we've talked but it's not like it's I'm not doing it as a favor to that application but we told an applicant that we'll do this as soon as possible we have to give him an answer as soon as possible this being the update whatever yeah clarification of Ro makes a difference in his application uh when when they came back with Concept plan the request was clarification of a royal commercial because of the ambiguity or at least confusion related to it uh the applicant felt like they they met the current definition uh but they were also experiencing some some frustration in going forward with their their plan and it been delayed over several you know several months recently and years actually since they first brought it or first developed the idea and so June was was the intended date uh but then there was some added so we changed our if you recall we changed our our goals and measurables to add this as a priority uh for planning uh and so uh to council member botus Point uh the long we wait to respond there is an applicant that's waiting for a response uh and and we have gotten some some clear feedback based on the directive from the council from the Planning Commission on on where to seek information and how to seek it and it's essentially affirmed uh the position that we already have and have had for a significant amount of time and so if if we still want to wait what staff to understand is is what is the desired outcome that diff from that yeah essentially if we're going if we want to schedule a work session what is it that you need from me for that work session I think Mark's comment on the work session was just about the survey itself yeah you know I don't want to delay the app I'm a quick study I'm I don't I don't need it if if it slows things down unnecessarily sounds good I'd say we unless someone feels differently we continue except for July or June we probably push that to July so we currently have a progress report due on goals and measurables uh on July 11th this would fall under that uh as far as a um deliverable on the goals and measurables uh so I'm so sorry I and some water yeah um if we're saying that um oh thank you thank you um we're saying that this one's unopen it does have to go to a public hearing Planning Commission and so I guess little so if we if we're saying that we want to get it on the schedule it have to at this point I can't notice it until August and it have to go on the August Planning Commission but that could also mean that we could discuss something in July um um so but again what do you need from me can we make a decision we can make a decision but the soonest I can schedule it would be a process we need to would have to be that August Planning Commission for the public hearing and then we' after that be able to adopt what that yeah August 1 AUST so that is kind of the quickest we got to do it I yeah we got to do it as quick as possible we said June and we got to be able to control we control well I think the issue is we can't get a notice out for the July Planning Commission no because that's next Tuesday so I can't get it out legally oh because of the holiday too yeah so the next Planning Commission date after August 1st and that would be the first meeting after that which be the 8th for the council meeting commission meeting on the 1 um yeah could we could certainly put it on the eth do we have to go okay ours would be our meeting would be the 9th then or our would be the eth 8th yeah yeah as long as council's okay with the staff report not being quite done it'll it won't have the Planning Commission discussion quite yet yeah I think if there's something relevant maybe that that's on the discussion let us know on the video and we can all research it ourselves maybe have a Planning Commission chair come and talk to us about it or something it's just like a government thing you know we're all part of the government and maybe so long as the the rep isn't the newest member because that'd be tough for them want to perpet yeah I I don't know off the top of my head who would be at that meeting but I I mean I can certainly I mean I'll be able to it's more just if if the staff report gets uh we're trying to be better about our staff reports being done on Wednesday so I won't have that time to update the staff report I think it'll be fine I think it'll be fine we go forward with it as soon as possible to John's point and try to get that done on the eth and and by then we might actually be electronic so you get the immediate update that would be nice perfect okay thank you so just to clarify August 1 Planning Commission this topic will go and then August 8th we'll bring uh this for public hearing at the council meeting yep understood uh yeah we'll take a take a a 5 minute recess and reconvene at uh 8:56 that clock's a couple minutes off call the meeting back to order and we will pick up with item 8 C and this was tabled uh a couple meetings ago so I think we're going to try to pick up where we left off and then if anyone has questions for staff or needs to be reminded on anything feel free to just raise your hand or step in and and we can ask those um and we can kind of go from there so John did you have a point that you wanted to to start with no my ask would be that we just start where we left off I think I called for the pause right yes and my pause was related to some something commissioner Anderson said and I was thinking about too is is it relevant that the in the O osnp application that the open space is not usable to to the public and um is it of any value to those other people and I wish it was um and I wish and I I but I I think like if we all had a vote not that we do it this way but I think people like the idea having Farmland as the open space option so I've thought a lot about that and I I I I um open to to that being another yeah I think that's all right to to that point and Jay kind of touched on this earlier but from and I'd actually page 21 be interested in what it says in our current code about it but um page 21 of the original 19708 comp plan additional development rights will be granted as a density bonus to encourage an owner to Cluster basic development rights and make an effort to maintain the remainder in a large enough parcel for economically VI viable agricultural use this should give an owner flexibility to sell parts of his or her land that may be substandard for agriculture while preserving the bulk of the Prime agricultural land is one of the and uses of OSP so there you go so yeah so I'm glad we paused for I'm glad we paed the applicant probably would have preferred we didn't PA but thank you for the patience while we figured out what to do and I think yeah they're both there yeah um so but I think to your point I think it does meet both the original intent and what our code says now as an intent there's certain