Call the meeting to order. Start with a roll call. McKe here. Lantern >> here. Friedrich >> here. >> Veronamp >> here. >> And council member Nichols is in Austria. So not here. Um but hope he's having fun. Um and then we will go into the work session uh topic which is the initial preliminary budget discussion uh and review. So Jay, I'll toss that to you if you're >> uh Mr. Mayor, council members. Uh so first I just want to say thanks. There's been a lot of work that's gone into this and uh so we have the department heads that are here and then also online we have Kagansky and here in the audience we have Vicky Holt House. ABDO. Uh an important note that is going to impact uh finance operations. This is our last meeting, public meeting with Quesa. Uh she is leaving ABDO and we will be uh having a new person support us who has been with us supporting other areas, but she's going to be with us more. Her name's Amanda and uh she's worked with Reed on bank reconciliations and so uh we're working out how that transition will go. Uh but Kesha has done a lot of great work. with us on this working with the department heads and so want to jump into it. Uh so I published are we coming up? Can you put me on the phone there? So again not going with all the slides we're going with what the public can see and what you have in front of you. The summary uh staff report that I'd given you let you know that the detailed stuff uh came out earlier this week because we were uh trying to fine-tune it and give you the latest and greatest. So those things went out. Uh but that's the staff report. The most important here that I want to hit in order. First, uh I wanted to emphasize that our market value, estimated market value, uh for 2026, uh is 23,66,16. Uh so that's a significant increase, a little over $2 million. >> It was one of the if not the top increases percentage-wise in the metro in Henipin County. >> In Henipin County, that's correct. And so, uh, it's just indicative of the growth that we're experiencing as that stuff. Yes. >> Is this in our packet? >> Yes, >> it is. Which page? Sorry, I can't see. >> So, it's it's the bottom attachment. It's the last attachment on the bottom. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> This is what we receive from Henipin County. It's the estimated market value. And so just wanting process-wise, this is a key part of the conversation that helps us understand uh as growth happens, service delivery demands grow as well. And so we've had growth uh in our markets and it breaks it down really nicely to help you understand where and how market values have increased and how that's impacted tax capacity. But that's a key component uh as we begin our budget process. Uh next that I wanted to bring up is because we have uh had some borrowing. So we did a 2025 Avon, our debt service requirements are increasing. And so uh this this is something that we're projecting. Want to make sure that you understand that. And so that's why that was included. Uh but our focus is the general levy today. And so uh I wanted to see which direction you wanted to go. So I can go straight to the budget which was in there uh the projected budget worksheet or we can focus on the memo and we can talk by exception of particular things you want to highlight on the memo. I I you know this is really for you all to I I've spoken with all of you about the budget. Um but for the sake of transparency of the public and also for the benefit of the rest of the staff if there's particular things you want to focus on to make best use of our time which direction would you like to go? Do you want to go to the memo and and go on the or do you want to go through the >> preferences from council? I'd say just go go right to the budget. Okay. >> Sure. >> So, um, one of the advantages of the memo is it spells out where changes occurred, uh, at a high level. Uh, but I I guess what's key here is our revenues are projected to increase. the the significant increase here is the projected increase on the levy on the property tax levy in order to meet the requirements of uh the expenses. So a couple things that I would highlight is uh revenue projections. We're we're anticipating some continued growth which then impacts permits uh impacts you know not not a lot of significant change it with some of those things that are coming in. It's important to note that if we do have decreased revenues, there's a corresponding decrease in expense. So an example would be if we don't have as many permits, we don't have as many building inspections. And since we have contracted building inspectors, if we don't have as many building inspections, then we don't have to pay as much in building inspections. Uh similarly, uh if development pace changes regarding those permits, uh some of our engineering reviews, our plans reviews that are outsourced that changes. We're not collecting as much in escrow uh and then we don't have as much in expenses. So there is a corresponding expense with some of those revenues. Not all of them, but with some of those. Another example would be with the TZF, the towards zero uh towards zero deaths uh grant. That's a pass through. We're projecting like $169,000 of that is pass through. If it doesn't come in as high, then the expenses that we pay out are not as high. So there's a there's a lot of cost centers that have corresponding outflow of expense that directly correlate to the inflow of revenues. Do you have particular questions on the revenues that you want to ask? Um, and as you're thinking about that, important to note, uh, we go through to the degree that you want to with a fine tooth each of the department budgets, uh, scheduled in October and then again in November before we set the final levy, uh, with our truth and taxation hearing on December 11th. >> That actually leads me to one thing I wanted to just double check with council. Um, I think we discussed this before and we certainly did last year. Are we still on board? I I am Personally, um I thought it worked out well last year with the method that we changed to last year of kind of taking the initial numbers as they are preliminary and then doing the fine tube, you know, sharpening pencils after the preliminary uh high watermark high level is set and then doing the department by department or groups of departments breakdowns to get to that final number in December. I wasn't here during the budget discussions last year. Um, but if that's what the consensus is, I'm fine with that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yes, >> it worked. It worked. >> It worked really well. >> I thought Yeah, >> this is what we what we got and then it was just talk with each department. It gives us a lot more time to go into each department and also just the way that the timing works with the county and the state and getting information is just not very efficient and and well timed. And if we can push out that final decision >> to later in the year, >> we're using better numbers, more data, have more time to break down and and find things. So I thought it worked really well. So if there's a consensus on that, may I recommend then that it might be helpful to pivot from the detailed budget and go to that that staff report that provides the significant major changes and highlight those. Is that acceptable >> unless there's particular things in the budget worksheet that you'd like to focus on? >> Let's do that. So, one of the things that gets highlighted here, the very first bullet, um the legislature in 2023, August, if you recall, passed several pieces of legislation that that uh became a bunch of unfinanced uh requirements for cities. And uh some of them came to bear in 2025. more of them are coming to bear in 2026. And so, um, Minnesota Paid Family Leave is one of those, uh, that we're having to figure out how to do and, uh, Nicia and her team have done a great job finding our solution. You've looked at that, what our plan is. Uh, but there's there's a budgetary impact of that and there will continue to be. Uh, admittedly, we are not um experiencing the same challenges. the mayor and I were talking with uh school districts and the school districts were even more frustrated with some of the iteanced uh mandates >> and how it was impacting them. But um there there are things that we don't have any say over uh that and that's an example of those. Um, and then another uh bullet number two, what that is is as we're trying to fine-tune standing up our new water treatment facility and and with the utility overheads, trying to figure out what our contribution as the city is to that enterprise fund operation. And so with water and sewer, as we've tried to fine-tune it and we've looked at it, we believe that a fair assessment right now is a 5% overhead charge and how it hits other departments. So what that looks like is it becomes a transfer from those funds. So we we have had a transfer from those funds in the budget for years, but we haven't had the detail that helped us explain why we were doing that transfer. We understood why it was covering some of these. We have some data now that's that better. We believe that right now a 5% and we'll continue to refine that as as uh the water treatment facility matures and as staff continue you know some new inner roles to understand better what their time distribution is to support those operations. So that's just reflective of what has been happening and now we're putting some clearer uh logic or clarification to the algorithm there. Uh and then several of these rather than me going through everyone since it's six pages and and you had it. Is there anything in particular uh on the first page that you'd like to talk about or have questions about? >> I kind of like not that I'm like trying to make our meeting last longer, but I think for transparency for the public it might be helpful if we go through the items just to understand. >> Okay. >> Just briefly like not in anything in depth but >> so so the next bullet uh is reflective and it's not just this department it's it's across the board. We have had rules that have been underneath other departments. So for example, the communication specialist fell under the administration. Since we have a budget line item, a business unit related to communications, we've moved that specialist position under the communications department so that that cost center is reflective of the labor that's supporting that cost center. Uh and then um across the board we planned as we um looked at our neighboring cities and our like cities uh as we connected with them. Most have used a 3 and 12% cost of living adjustment projection for 2026. So that's what we've used uh in this. Initially some of our neighbors have used a higher one. So the initial budget had a 5% and when those numbers came across uh And then we got more data from others. We lowered that from 5% down to three and a half%. Um operating supplies, uh shifting overtime budget, um health insurance benefits right now, the factor that we're using is 15%. Uh and that's we we think that's a pretty good number for right now. Uh but to the mayor's point, those the details of that don't become available to us until a little bit later this year. Um and then dues and memberships, uh that got shifted. It previously fell under central services, but since the bulk of League of Minnesota City's work is with the council and with the administration, we thought that it was more appropriate for that to fall under administration rather than under central services impacting all the departments. So in some cases, this is just really moving the the expenses around so that it better reflects the character of the cost center that it's being attributed to. Any questions about first page? >> Go ahead, >> Mr. Mayor. >> Oh yeah, sorry. >> May I ask quick? I'm sorry. How many people do we have online listening? >> So Quesa is on via Zoom. >> Okay. >> Uh we don't use Zoom for the public anymore and we have a way to know how many people. >> Okay, you've said that before. Thank you. >> Uh and then under building, um a lot of these are are minor changes. Plan review fees. Um the revenue went up uh for plan review fees from what it was previously by 35,000. Ancillary ancillary >> and did I say that right? >> Close enough. ancillary fees uh um reduced by 14,000 based on estimates and professional services to align with historical trends. Again, the reason that went up 150,000 for building inspections is that's what we're anticipating based on what we've seen. Uh if it's not that much, it means that we won't collect the revenue. So, if we have that expense, we'll be collecting a revenue that would be an offsetting uh related to permits for that expense. uh central services um an increase in benefits um and uh other sorry benefits uh software benefits connect ADP uh so we've added a recruitment module um to try and help us more efficiently and effectively uh work that with HR. So, a lot of software increases uh up to $15,000. And again, software budget uh was shifted um from the IT department or to the IT department from central services because it was we're trying to put it with the cost center that's appropriate. Uh water and sewer expenses um reclassified uh and again the league of Minnesota City membership dues went from central services to admin. Communications, we talked about the specialist position. uh newsletter. This was really effective and we got a lot of positive feedback last year uh for us outsourcing it. Um and uh everybody that I've heard from uh and some of you have even talked about uh positively how that's impacting the community have changed. Um postage for that newsletter is now located there. And then the website changes. We actually just recently approved that I think two council meetings ago. Uh elections We have talked about the need to have some increased support uh for elections uh and not have elections so uh upend or disrupt our operations uh in the clerk's office. So adding some capacity with that increased demand for that short window of time. Um engineering uh so now that we have clearer we've we've got Lauren added now as our um development superintendent and with Kevin we've added some professional development uh expenses in terms of dues and memberships uh for the the organizations that they're a part of for professional development. >> Can I ask a quick question? >> Yes. >> How many people right now are part of elections? Like how many staff? So, we have the city clerk and then our deputy clerk is essentially parttime helping with elections because they're still servicing the front counter as well. >> Okay. So, 1.5 basically. >> Okay. >> Um and then uh soft GIS software. Any questions on page two? 30% of the way done. But it is uh so finance um for uh predictability um face to face within the finance department. We have anticipated uh for the for the second half of 2026 the potential of having an on-site finance director. Uh and I also in full transparency when we were budgeting for this there were five finance director positions out across the metro. Uh and so um one of the things that changed if you remember when we went out for finance manager previously uh we had the shortest employee that I've ever had in my life. Our nine-hour finance manager uh that was disruptive and then and then we had an internal promotion. Part of the reason I think that our pool, we're having challenges with the pool was where it landed in the price point compared to the competitive market. And so it has been both in terms of what this position requires as as I understand it now better. Uh we've aligned it better uh to enhance it with the both the professional experience and and training to be able to deliver what we need out of this position. uh and and what we've seen with the staff support that we've gotten from Abdul like this is what we're going to need. Um I'm discouraged uh or I'm not as optimistic about it. But so what's great is we have a we have a plan. Abdo has been helping us tremendously. Uh the only thing that's challenging for us is we are a hightouch organization. What that means is we operate really leanly, but uh if something's happening today, there's a quick huddle and everybody figures out how we're going to handle it and we get feedback from our from our very talented multifunctional team and then we go back with an understanding of how it impacts different areas. It's difficult for us to do that with somebody remotely uh to to have them without a scheduled time pop in on a meeting immediately to get that sort of thing. And so that's >> quick question. Um is is the total cost and the wage for a finance director position it doesn't seem like it's high enough. Is that for a partial year? >> That's only for six months. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So So it graded at a grade 14. we have the position great in uh for what we need. So, uh part-time um AP clerk, uh that has been a great help to us. So, so we added that. Um we were behind on some of our claims and uh Kathy has been a fantastic addition. Uh and um we we need to continue to do that. And then Abdo has continuing to help us out. I think one of the challenges also under finance just to call that out is is our escrow is complicated and uh in terms of the project and the scope of the project when we talked about it when I first came on board in February uh it's taken longer for us to resolve it but we've also I want to celebrate the gains that we've made and so we've recently had some some things close out that we could not have considered closing out 12 months ago and so we We made tremendous progress. We're probably um Vicki or Kisha could talk into it, but we're probably at about 75%ish to where we've solved the problem, but when the problem's solved, it still has a high overhead requirement compared to some other cities. And this goes back to being a hightouch organization. So, so uh the way that we do development, uh the way that we take in escrow, it requires a lot of processing, confirming our letters of credit. Not all cities do it the same way that we do. Uh but that that requires a lot of staffing. And so that's part of the consideration for finance director, but also as we look forward, we're looking at our fee structure to make sure that that we are getting the appropriate fees to cover that that's only associated to development. Quick question on the contract for the outsourced finance director position. Are we receiving additional benefits for the additional fund additional amount that we're being charged or is that just part of the contract? >> Say that one more time. >> Um, are we receiving additional services for the increase for the finance director position? It says it's going to increase by 13,000 in 202. >> It was part of the contract. >> Okay. >> So, so there there there was an elevator in the contract when we signed the contract. Do you have any other questions about that? But Picky can speak to it directly. >> If that was what was that was in the contract then >> it was in the contract. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Uh so fire uh we've talked about the deputy director uh uh public safety uh related to fire um and what that could do to help us with our fire services. Um and then our contracted fire services uh with our three partners increased by roughly $118,000. Then highway, streets, and roadways. Uh I guess the short way to say this one is material costs are up and uh and labor costs are for us the the changes for highway, streets, and roadways. We're moving three of the personnel that fell under this to parks. So we'll see that when it gets reflected. Uh that's long-term wise uh how we need to be structuring ourselves to be able to maintain it. And it's also calling out the fact that labor is necessary to maintain those parks and trails and also material costs related to parks are being called out now. Uh and so that's one change in the budget. Uh and then another one is >> Michelle had a question. >> Yeah. >> One quick question on the fire. Um, would we ever consider instead of hiring a position looking at like a contracted service with with an independent person or provider that could help us give us some direction into what our fire services might look like or I know we talked about this briefly at a different work session and so I'm just wondering if if that would be something we're going to consider or if this is is um is something that is and I know we've been talking about this for a very long time, but we haven't actually landed anywhere from from my perspective. So, I'm just wondering if this should be included or if it should be an or or an >> an and follow that. >> Yeah, I think we know what what functions we're needing to try and provide with that. And I think when it comes time for delivery, we can talk about is it is a consultant the best way to kick this off and give us that stronger direction or are we better off with that staff person? I think we can validate that whichever direction we decide at the time. But I would say either one of those would be considerations as long as we're achieving the goals that we need to in that service area. >> With this line number, I think it'd be, you know, when we get down to having the public safety conversation, that would be a great time to clarify council's direction or desire uh related to how we approach fire. So, should we be including it as a position is my question then or should it be allotted funds for whatever decision ends up coming forth? >> Well, I wouldn't see a if we did go the contractual route, I wouldn't see that necessarily lasting more than, you know, usually you're bringing in with certain marching orders and wants that accomplished. So, I wouldn't see that necessarily going longer than a year. I mean likely I would see that being a four to six months type consulting role to get things pointed in the right direction at which time it would probably rotate into a position I would think to continuation once it's oriented and going the direction we wanted to but I guess that's going to be up to what council direction is once we get on that uh that topic >> in in terms of budget detail one of the challenges that we'd have is is that we have to budget it somewhere under fire and so we can reallocate that as we go into the more detail conversations within the department. >> Uh so so right now put parking it there doesn't preclude us from reallocating that later to a contract if that's the direction or desire of council >> uh that doesn't the overall cost doesn't go up. >> Yeah. Exactly. So so this would just set the ceiling for that business unit for fire >> and then the details of it is is uh would be discussed >> hammer out >> in in October to hammer that out. So, so saying that this was an either or now, >> right, >> in terms of the budget sheet, it doesn't really we it gets attributed. >> We we either have to put it under personnel or we have to put it under professional services. There isn't a either or category in the in our accounting codes. >> But if we were to approve this, it makes it seem as though we're approving a position is my point too. So I and I know we can switch it in the when we actually finalize it, >> but I guess that's concerning to me because it's a little bit misleading because it seems like when if I were to read this as a resident, it would it look it appears as though we're approving a preliminary budget at some point for a position. >> So valid, I I would also say last year uh that's exactly how we did it. So deputy for fire and then also under police and SIU position >> uh when we went forward with the not to exceed budget were both included in the line items and then neither of them were approved when we finalized the budget in December. >> Okay. >> Um and then uh furthermore with highway streets and roadways um so additional funding for municipal state aid that's good for us. the adjustments that will still come in that could be higher. That's a number we'll get by the time third quarter comes >> right. Uh so I I mentioned the positions shifting and changing. Uh one uh budget position that's currently as a uh worker as a maintenance worker uh will be requesting to upgrade that to a fleet lead. Um so uh we have a pretty large fleet of equipment and Currently, it's being managed out of Hyde. And so, internally going to recruit uh from from the staff that we have and having one of our staff take on a role in which they're managing the maintenance schedules, the maintenance contracts, changing oil, uh doing tire uh realignments, those sorts of things. to the degree that they can conduct maintenance on our equipment doing it internally and to the degree that it's outsource managing those relationships. So that's a small increase going from a maintenance worker to a fleet lead. Then I've mentioned the increase in supplies. Uh last one um there's been a decision to close the ice and snow removal department uh because as as far as a business unit and just include that here. another line item. It's unpredictable from year to year. Uh and so, uh it's just been absorbed under highway, streets, and roadways. At this point, we're trying to keep it as simple as possible while being as transparent as as possible. Any questions on page three? Uh it um so we've got some significant uh IT shifts. We need we have uh servers that need to be upgraded. uh software that is in and uh hardware equipment that needs to be uh replaced and or upgraded um and our continued uh um services under it. Anything quick, do you think we'll at some point move away from contracted services because it seems like in some of the numbers I looked at it was pretty high along with our staff person. So I don't foresee anytime soon we'll move away because we do have some networking um basically networking projects that our consultant will be working on. So our IT manager should be soon here and currently they're working on taking some of the workload off of the consultant. So those bills should be produced in the near future >> because I only question that because it seems like with part-time our contracted services was doing the job and so with a full-time person here now I would think that that would not be necessary anymore. >> We're still going to have to contract for certain projects. There's not going to be like one IT person that can do it all, you know, between the networking and the day-to-day. It's a pretty unique field. I I would add on top of that um particularly related to the PD the police department AT requirements and the BCA stuff that happens there. Uh the the uniqueness of that most cities even if you have a more robust than just one department are still contracting services in order to get some of those unique requirements met. >> Uh and then um so we're we're going to have to grow as as we grow. We have some pretty high IT demands for a city our size and that's because we have leveraged technology in order to avoid the addition of staffing. Uh but when you add technology you grow more complex than the overhead to maintain that technology increases. And I think some of Nelicia touched on it some of the areas you know we do have off-site backups that are being you know where things are being maintained and stored but even from a cyber security standpoint and some of the other things there's it's such a broad knowledge base that you can't get that with the one person that specializes in that would be at the level that we would need for security for storage for network for desktop support for all of those things I think it would be too hard to try and expect out of one to people at the level that we would need it at. >> Uh and um legal fees um are going up. Some of those are associated particular uh instances and part of that's just the market stuff gets more expensive. uh parks. Uh the significant change in parks was the shift of three personnel that previously were tracked under streets now being tracked under parks. Uh and then uh utilities is changing. Uh the snowmobile trail maintenance account was created in order to call that out. So if you remember Northwest uh trails, we have a grant agreement that that we serve as the pass through. it was kind of buried and it wasn't really clear and so we've actually created a new line number so that that's really clear as it gets called out. It's not a lot of money but it's important for us to >> Mr. Jay is that 45,000 a year. >> Uh I believe that's correct >> estimated. Yeah, I think it depends partially on >> how much snow and everything that happens. >> Well, essentially because they don't if the registration for snowmobile is down then the DNR doesn't necessarily enough funding, but I believe that's based off of previous years. So, but I there was kind of a fore warning that they might have to decrease the bit going forward. >> So, you said that we're pass or we get the money and then we give it to the Northwest Trail. >> That's correct. >> Thank you. >> Y So, so this expense and this revenue if it if the revenue is not there then it's because the expense wasn't there. >> So, quick question if I may, Mr. Mayor. Um, with with the three additional staff, do are they are we bringing in like additional revenue or is that just that's what we just have revenue? >> Yeah. So, so hopefully we'll see some revenue grow here with rentals going forward and >> it's not all the labor. >> No, I got it. Sorry, I missed that. Thank you. >> Uh, pave streets. Um just material costs are going up. Uh planning and zoning uh software expenses are going up. Uh PD um state aid uh is uh is increasing a bit. Um and then there's some other adjustments there. IC poet we put that grant in that that would be there's a request right now for two addition of uh police officers for 2026 one full-time officer ideally it would be a lateral from the and then another under the cadet program that we've talked about before which would be connected to the IC poet uh program uh I just remind you that there was only IC eight IC poet grants available across the state this year And with the success uh that the chief and I have talked about that other cities have had and the challenge that we've had with recruiting, even if we don't get the IC POE grant, the cadet program is is a really important potential opportunity for us to get the right people on the team. Uh so even if we don't get that revenue in the grant, uh that that cadet program is probably something we need to embrace as a a way to to continue to grow the department the way that we want to grow. >> Yeah. It's also important to note that um items like the police state aid and training reimbursements as revenues are dependent on our staffing numbers. They're formulaic with the state on how many people were in seed for certain number of months during the year. We've had one full-time officer position that's been vacant since her retirement earlier this year. We haven't been able to fill. Um so there is the potential to see those revenues drop if we aren't able to hire full-time to have people in there for that eligibility by officer. So now obviously the revenues the expense outweighs the revenues. We don't get that full cost of an officer, but we could see revenues dip if we aren't able to find candidates to fill those spots. Some of those other uh expenses are increases because you're increasing staff. So training budgets go up, uh uniform budgets go up, some of those lines are directly related to that. Uh and then uh with equipment, tasers, life cycle replacements of tasers where we're at. I I remind you that we did do um council approved at the last meeting the the change over to a new alternative from the P320 uh and so um the department is working on that right now. That that would not be in the 2026 budget. That would be completed before that. Uh recreation, it's actually uh just an adjustment uh of insurance benefits and costs related to It's actually a reduction in the recreation department. Uh pave streets has to do with materials. Any questions on page five? Okay. And then page six is the breakdown uh by department of everything that we've just discussed. >> Any overall questions or >> so I guess important clarification if if council doesn't have any other uh significant questions right now there's two other sessions or two other meetings scheduled to discuss the budget. So we put a placeholder in for September 11th uh as a work session and then on September 25th we have to have uh we have to set the not to exceed budget levy. Um and so if if there aren't concerns and there's report for where it's at to set the not to exceed budget at this then the 11th wouldn't be necessary and we could take that off the calendar. If there are concerns uh it would be important for us to know so that we could work on those and address them now or address them on the other >> I guess I just have one concern. I feel like a 20% increase from year from last year to this year is like a pretty large amount and I feel like we should have further discussion on the 11th about about that. >> Um I I guess I'm just concerned because it's like we we can't keep doing like 20% increases every year. That that's just like not that's not sustainable. >> We haven't. >> Yes. So by maintaining a flat rate for the last five years that's part of the challenge has put us in a position that we need to >> uh and then and then the other thing is uh so the >> consumer price index is bounced between 3% and 8% over the last five years. So that's put us across the board and in some cases we've been behind that. And so uh the the support from council last year in order to catch up uh with the with common class study was really helpful. But what's happening with the market? So for example uh if benefits are going up by 15%. If you don't increase the budget by at least 15% to account for that then you have to tell us what you'd like us to stop doing. >> And it's something Mr. Mayor, that's something I've been saying since I've gotten on the council is 2026 and 2027 are going to be really hard years for us and we're seeing it now until the growth >> yes catches up >> does its thing. I mean, we I've asked I I know how many times to people beyond our staff of why does it take two years for us to see any of the property taxes from the new homes and stuff. Um I'm kind of getting a better understanding of it. I just don't want to accept it. So that's me. Another challenge that our community faces is what we've been talking about when Mary Build was here is we currently don't have a very helpful mix in order to reduce some of that pressure off of our residents. >> And as she made it clear, we're not within the life cycle of development in which we're going to get that diversity of tax revenue from commercial and and industrial properties yet. So that's that's why some folks like to compare us to say Dayton. If you look at Dayton, so that that market value breakdown. If you look at ours, there's not a lot there on commercial and industrial. If you look at Dayton's, their mix looks a lot different. And so, they're able to have different conversations about how they meet those service requirements because those industrial and those commercial, they do not have the same level of customer service expectations and service requirements >> uh that that all the residents do. So, every time we add a resident, we exponentially increase our costs. I would agree with that. Only thing that maybe a little bit I would tweak that the amount that Dayton or Dayton city like Dayton has of industrial is significant compared to us. There are still some things despite what that study said um that you know we have on going like the industrial site in the northeast, the hope site which will bring in um I had a conversation with Ban Ler the other day if things continue there some different types of commercial and stuff. So we we are starting to see some interest. That's where I have a little bit of an issue with hearing no growth no interest in the area for those type of uses for foreseeable future yet. We have a couple that are in progress right now. >> And and I I sorry if it came up that way. We've got not just the the current uh international site than the one just north of there. Those are going to be really helpful. Uh but in terms of the timing, right, >> back to your point, like that's not we're not going to see the benefit of that for a couple years. >> Uh and so while while we're on the the horizon of that, our expenses today uh are directly correlated to the fact that we are a growing city and as we grow, our service demand grows exponentially. and to not take away from what's happened over the last year and nine months and stuff. >> You talk about running lean, I don't even know the word for it before how off things were and stuff. Just a tremendous amount of things done right and changes and we're aware of where our money is and what it's going off to and all that stuff. before we didn't have a good road mapap on what was going on. So it it all has come it's all been great work by staff and everybody else and the result is we should have been doing something three four years ago some small increments of I hate to say it tax increase property tax increases related to the city stuff but >> I'm so far from being wise on being accounting and stuff. I just I knew it was going to catch up. >> So, a question that I'd have is is right now if we set the not to exceed levy on the 25th as as we have it >> and and then we have uh October session in which we go through through departments in detail >> uh and and then we've had more time to gather more data and then if you have other questions that gives us time to to work on those. Um what would you like us to accomplish on the 11th if we were to have get together on the 11th. Uh what what sort of information could we provide you that we don't have today? >> That's a good question. >> Well, I think Michelle, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, we're going to have the opportunity to go line by line when we go into those meetings. And it worked very, very well last year. >> Okay. >> We were able to chew on a bunch of stuff and they all came back in >> at the meeting. I don't even remember what the numbers changed to and people found and it was it was kind of cool watching it. There wasn't a whole lot of us saying no no no. >> Yeah, >> that this year might >> I feel like last year we we did it on kind of like a well, we'll take your word that this process works and then it did. Jay recommended it and we trusted you on it and pulled through it. It worked very well. What I liked about it on two fronts is each of the departments had an opportunity to tell the story of their department. >> You gained a different understanding that you had previously operational understanding of what it takes for them to deliver the services that you're asking them to deliver. And then they got clarifying guidance from you on what things are important which helps them as they're making decisions on a day-to-day basis about how they do their operations. And so that collaborative process I I I feel was was very very good for people. >> We're pretty good. I think >> can I just ask one question? >> I I think that would be super helpful and I'm excited to be a part of that process to understand and learn more. >> I guess like my perspective that I'm coming from when I look at all the different departments and I see the percentage of changes between departments, I feel like it's it and and this has been like this for a very long time. Some departments have huge increases and some have very little. And I'd like to see there be more balance between how those percentages fall. So, we don't see a 50% for one department. And I get that some of it is changing staff to go into a different department or realigning. Like, for example, the elections for 2025 was 2,000. In 2026, it's going to be almost 50. It's probably because we put a person as partially in that in that area. So, that makes sense. Um, but like to understand the reasoning behind those things would be super helpful. Like if if I have to pick another one, and I don't mean to pick on police, but that's just a really huge difference. And I and I don't necessarily understand why there's a $700,000 increase in in PD services in one year. And I know we were adding a lieutenant and we've got some of these other positions that we're adding. Um, but like to help me understand what that is. So if I get a question, I can easily explain, oh well, it's because we added XYZ and per person in our city, that's only this much or >> so that that's where the breakdown is that we just read through. All those inquiries were were just covered on on what changed. >> Yes. >> Uh the reason it wouldn't be an equal across the board uh because that actually would be kind of arbitrary because that isn't the way that expenses come in. Sometimes material expenses are more uh you know because you the detail that a gravel pit is closing and now your transportation costs have tripled and and so um I I think a a really helpful question is is do any departments feel like they're being short changed >> because because that's you I I think at the heart of your question is is this being delivered equitably? >> Yes. >> Are are any departments feeling like they got short changes >> and like what is unfunded? What are things that are necessary but we just don't have it in our budget to fund right now? like from each department this is what I would really like but I we don't have the money for this but at least then as a council we could understand that and maybe start looking forward and saying >> I think that's what we get yeah I think I think that's really important I think that's what I got last year from the way we did it where we did the two or three departments per work session how many work sessions did we have >> so two work sessions two departments per work session one of the things that I'd say and they may be frustrated with me or This is not a dream budget. This is a deliver the services that we've been asked to deliver budget that I've been read in other organizations where staff use that as an opportunity in order to get huge gains and huge wins. There's none of that in this budget. Uh it's it's pretty transparent and that's when it when it shows the the high water marks on the details here. it it covers why the budget numbers have changed the way that they have in terms of the the staff report. Um so as a consequence of that some services are more expensive to deliver than other services you know so this year elections was zero we we wouldn't have wanted to have any money attributed to elections to make sure that it was an equitable budget this year but we didn't have any real expenses and we we would use that opportunity in order to do big fun things in expenses or in elections at the expense of community development. Um and so and I would say >> yeah I was just going to say also I mean it's some of the changes are disproportionate changes are related to uh you the maintaining the flat rate in the past different positions weren't approved that doesn't mean that they aren't needed what and future ones were needed as well. So when you look at the implications of not adding police officers in past years as scheduled delays them but it doesn't delay the need for the later ones you know. So, so what happens is you kind of get a little bit of a compounding effect where you'll see greater changes in departments that didn't get positions funded in previous ones. And so it goes back to as we choose what to do and not do it kind of compounds. >> And thanks for explaining that. I see your point in that. And I guess like what I what I would be concerned with as a council person is is like if we're allotting say $150,000 for two police officers and we haven't filled the three positions that we have, chances are we aren't going to be able to fill those in the next year. Maybe. I mean, I think the program with the cadets is pretty exciting. But like what are other needs that we could be fulfilling with that money in the interim until we can actually sustain those other two police officers and get them onboarded and hired and going because otherwise that's money that we're allotting to something that we're it's not being utilized to the best that we could utilize those dollars is kind of what I'm thinking. >> I I would say the other side of that coin is if we find the candidates and we don't have the budget to support it but we have the need and the candidates but allocated it elsewhere. I think I think we have to budget for what we believe we need >> and then try and find a way to to deliver on that. And I think you know the CAD program is an example of trying to rethink try how we're doing it and we're going to continue to explore ways to get there. But I I think the and it's certainly up to you guys for the final decision, but I feel like my responsibility is to bring forward what I believe we need and you you guys have to help prioritize what what the deliverables will be out of that >> and those discussions when we have the department meetings like getting in down to the brass tax have been pretty productive. >> Every time we say no to something in a budget, it probably isn't going to go away. And I don't think it has over the last three years now, four years. It like Matt just said, it has compounded up. >> And again, us keeping it flat for five, that's a great job, but we said no to a lot of things. it's going to catch up and it's here. So, >> I I I would also say that as a as a growth mindset organization, I I was just going through with staff today. We had a projected staffing model. Uh Tammy actually sent it to me today and she was asking me about it and I I got to go through it today and what I recognized is because we are a growth mindset organization, we have retoled some positions in order to meet a need that we didn't even know when the staffing model was built. So, so an example would be we had a an admin uh an admin sergeant projected for the department. um instead we have used a lieutenant position in order to address those needs and it allowed us to actually address more needs than what just the admin sergeant would be. Another example would be we had a plant operator projected uh for this year. Instead talking with Kevin we recognized that industry standard it was more helpful for us to have a utility lead. So someone that isn't just in the plant but is also going out there. And I just got a letter yesterday a note uh on talking about what a fantastic job that person is doing taking care of customers. Uh so um because we're having the discussions in some cases us being very intentional and deliberate have have helped us to make smarter decisions rather than just going yep that's what we need now. the cadet program solution. If we had had challenges with retention, we might not have looked twice at it. We might have looked like, oh, that's for much bigger cities than us. But when we see like, okay, well, we could do that and it would benefit us. And actually, since we actually have several of our current officers who are tied to corporate, we might even be able to homeg our own >> our own cadet. I would also add that and I think you know this but um just to clarify for everyone that really this is just only locking us and not not even today uh the 25th is locking us into the absolute maximum ceiling of what we can pass what we'll be diving into in all the subsequent work sessions is all those specifics and changes and potentially moving things and swapping things out or eliminating things push or realistically pushing them out um in those as we our final in December >> December 11th. >> December 11th. >> There was a hockey game that day. >> We're not going to it. >> Wild or >> Yep, it's a wild game. I got the schedule back on one of the TVs. >> We'll see how Capri's off plan by that time. >> And anything else from council? Uh, so what is the guidance for September 11th? I think I'm good. >> I like that plan. >> Oh, no. September 11th work session. >> Just going down the road. >> Right. Thanks for clarification on that. I do want to open it up before we go off uh and just go down the line. Uh any comments or questions from staff or council regarding the budget? >> No. If you guys have specific questions like if you want to spend some time and I'm happy to go kind of line by line on what drives some of the changes in the budget and um same thing with any of you if you have questions about what's what's driving those I'm happy to sit down and kind of go through the breakouts on those changes as I sure my peers are too. >> Okay, >> that's the other thing too I wanted to say I forgot that I'm sure uh I don't want to speak for any department head but I'm sure if a council member wanted to sit down and talk about long-term things that they would like to see in the you know, in the >> years to come, I'm sure they happy to council on a one-on-one basis and talk about that. >> Good deal. All right. >> If you're doing something you don't want us to do, tell us that >> Well, that's so so we I do want to open it up for Case and Vicki to see if you have any comments or clarifications. Thank you. >> Anything from you? Anything from you, Kesha? >> Can you see her? >> I can see her. >> Thumbs up, thumbs down. >> A big one. Thank you guys both for what you do for us. >> Can she hear us? >> You're leaving or she's leaving? >> She's leaving. >> Okay. and Amanda will be joining the team. >> Gotcha. >> Well, Amanda will be changing rules. >> We know Amanda, right? >> We do. >> I think we do. >> Thank you guys very much for helping. >> Been a big help of all of these folks. We just compile it. >> Team efforts. >> Well, Mr. Mayor, >> thank you everybody. >> That's that's all staff has for you for this budget session and we are two minutes from our time. >> Perfect. And with that, I will entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> So move. >> Second. All those in favor say I. I. I.