okay I will go ahead and call the meeting to order we'll start with a roll call the key here bottom Baron Camp here Nicholls here and uh Planning Commission Lind here brummond here and Harries yes here and L here perfect um so we will just jump right into the main item for the work session which is the rural commercial and Industrial zoning and Natalie will be taking it from here thank you Mr Mayor the item before the Planning Commission and city council tonight is uh drafts that address task one and task two of our commercial industrial update so specifically task one is evaluating and clarifying the use and or assignment of the development rights within the rural commercial CR and transitional rural commercial TCR zoning districts task two is evaluating whether the city wants to remove mini storage and Self Storage as a use within the city or add standards to limit where the use is located uh so uh also to keep in mind if we have time after reviewing these drafts we can also start work on task three which is the more comprehensive larger review of all our commercial and Industrial zoning districts including our mixed use zoning districts So based on the Planning Commission feedback that was presented to Council on April 25th the direction was to prepare a draft for task one that memorializes the historic use of development rights within the Roy commercial and transitional rural commercial zoning districts staff was also directed to move forward with a survey that would be open to anyone but mailed invitations would be specifically sent out to those who live within 500 ft of our rural commercial area and that's to get further feedback from the public on the explor changes to a lot sizes and how it relates to development rights so staff is currently working on that survey uh a huge effort is being done to get that ready for Friday for that to be mailed out and available on our website as a Friday and then task two the direction was to go ahead and remove the Z the mini storage and Self Storage from the applicable zoning districts in the city and uh also staff is directed to complete some research as to the self storage in the city both approved and existing as compared to um Greenfield Rogers and Madina so that table is provided in the work session memo uh one of the interesting findings were about I believe it was 54 gross Acres of Mini Storage 58 uh which is the and then when we combin the gross acreage in the three surrounding cities we exceed that their number combined so we do have a significant amount of storage comparatively and and other than that the drafts do as directed and would love to get your feedback everyone's feedback to figure out how we can move forward perfect thank you thank you so I I think we'll just start with that first task that open it up to maybe Council first and then commission and then we can kind of see where the conversation goes if there's any thoughts changes like what we're seeing on that first task or I'm sorry on task two task one Natalie that you don't need anything really from us right now it's survey yep I would say yeah kind of survey of is this doing what we wanted I did do a couple minor changes just to some obvious uses that needed to get addressed that you know just maximizing stack time there um but is there anything Al glaring is this direction that we are leaning towards and should continue preparing for um um how exactly do you want to proceive for task one and task two okay one miscellaneous thought I had for um for the survey I don't know if it's doable in that time frame we're doable at all but maybe getting someone on the the sign up front oh it just like we have with planing commission openings and stuff like that so I don't know if it's a QR code or just say go to our website or something maybe not a QR code because then people would be driving and take a picture of it which probably isn't good Dodge and if only we could keep the cement trucks keep the fees that the police yeah those days set up for it yeah really important so besides that yeah Facebook everything yep yes we are working with Communications to make it as visible as possible had aun you were already on that so and then maybe if we mention in the letters that we're sending up to the 5 if we have a link or something so we can tell people tell their neighbors or just I'm just trying to think of other ways to to get as big of a reach as possible okay just like a saying so like if if I'm within 500 feet and I get a physical copy excuse me copy survey you're not talking about the opening for the Planning Commission you're talking about the survey for talking about the survey yeah yeah just so that then they could go to their friend and say oh if you want to take it you can go to this website yeah okay try to spread it out want something on the messaging board so we'll talk or if we can just an idea I think we can it'll be open for 3 weeks it's a quick turnar around because I I had promised that we would have findings for you for the June meeting so if it's doable and it finds one extra person great um but other than that I think we're good on task one for now anyone else task one I do we feel like 500 ft is sufficient and I say and maybe this shouldn't be drawn a parallel but you know we had some feedback from residents around not getting notified about puds and about preliminary plats and prop you know it not being a wide enough range for the amount of impact it could have so I didn't know if we felt like that number is appropriate or if we want to talk about it well certainly something we can talk about um what it was for us for the longest time up until not too long ago it was 350 we up it 500 which is a lot of cities have 350 which is the statutory minimum um I've seen a number of cities up it to about 500 I haven't seen too many go beyond 500 no it's typically 500 because the you're always going to have people saying they didn't receive the notice even when they did receive notice and the development signs are another way that we try to reach those who aren't looking in the mail and who may not have received a mail notice social so I think with and then our website also has continuous updates as to what applications we're reviewing and what has a public hearing coming up and our public hearing notices are also posted on the board so we we do have multiple methods to get the word out there um I would say 500 ft is that's typically what cities will choose to increase it to and I haven't seen it go beyond that yeah um right now our fee is what a part of the fee is counting the publication and printing mailer costs for those public hearing notices so if we were to increase It Again by double we already increased it almost double the change if we were to increase it by another double we really would need to First do a fee study to make sure that we're collecting the right amount of fees or change our practice so that it gets charged directly to the escrow which I've seen be done as well so area increases by four when you increase radius by two so correct such Jeremy com it's 210 ft from right here to the road just FYI to give it some context yeah I'm only thinking of uh experience with the um count 3016 because there were neighborhoods that were like we didn't get notified because we're not within that radius but it's a big deal and maybe a compromise could be we Mark the date on the sign that is going to be evaluated not that it's going to be under commissioner you know it's going to be under review but like what day because I'm sorry if I'm a regular resident I'm not checking the website unless I remind myself you know amongst all the other things in life so I I'm just maybe there's I get the fee thing we need to you know honor the budget just that was feedback I heard yeah um especially with like the traffic impact that it has for people um and just how big of a deal some of these are for our residents that it just what we're hearing is it didn't it didn't get out of enough especially in the rural areas 500 ft doesn't seem like very far at all well so what I I would like to clarify is are you talking specifically about the survey or are you talking about notice for all things yeah good um because because the survey in this rural commercial transitional commercial r i could see perhaps a reason why you'd go more than 500 some of these plots are going to be contained they would be noticing themselves right um but I also think that that's where we have a responsibility as uh you know Representatives people who serve to spread the word I know every time that when there was a survey about the sign I was texting all my neighbors and so maybe that's just me but um you know we also can can say hey pay attention to this hey this is what's going on um but that's I I guess the question I have for cerification is are you talking specifically about this survey or are you talking about every instance of notice yeah I'll just so I I I believe the request is for every notice but I think the conversation tonight we should get a finalized answer on how we would like the survey um at this point staff is prepared to get mailed notices out for 500 feet and 1,000 feet does double the staff for that at what at one point does every and I'm just throwing it out there like how far away do people have the right to weigh in on something also like if there's something going on a th000 feet from your property that may or may not impact it it depends on what it is like how much say do they get to have in in the matter too that's something I think that should if we increase it to a th000 the people at 12200 ft are going to ask no I get it that's what I'm only throwing it out there like I don't have an opinion on that I'm just something to consider so so and two things to consider for the survey uh in contrast to an application which is just one evening the survey is going to be open for a period of time and to anyone that wants to apply so I just wanted to bring that up and and multiple ways that that information we're trying to so definitely get that out and and then the other thing that I didn't I I was here that evening when a lot of folks said that they didn't get what the word but they were there cuz somebody got them the word and so to to the point that was was made uh by commissioner brummond I I think uh we do our best to get the word out and then people who recognize hey my neighbor needs to know about this um part of the reason a lot of people were there wasn't because they got mailers it was because people who had their best interest in mind said hey I think this is of interest to you and I think that's an even more effective way to activate people to get them to come in than a flyer that they throw away um and I I think that's fine I think perhaps for the survey it's sufficient I know I brought this feedback before and it was let's bring it up at this meeting so that's what I'm bringing it yeah no I think it's fair I think it's I do think it's a good question I just think that there's um um at what point I think does it does it kind of just keep on we keep expanding the radius I think is question I it just needs to be larger than is just I don't think for everything Lindsay or just for this specific thing larger impact projects how would you define how would you define a larger impact project I don't know so if it's like houses on houses or industrial on houses like there's there's so many different like variables I'm glad you're taking it seriously I I don't know how we would define whether we do a th000 or 500 I'm totally open to and if definition if you go back to whole Church there was people that were 3/4 of a mile away I didn't get notified and I'm not and I just told them did you see the blue sign yeah did you read it yeah M there's information go on our website you can dig into that specific deal that's what the sign is for and stuff I I experience it all the time with people I didn't know well why are you calling me then well somebody told me it gets out you know how much money are we going to spend to do this if this would be possible so you know how we have on our website the agendas for planning Parks Charter and us and people can subscribe to that is there a way we could do that same type of thing where our notices go out on that page and people can subscribe on there and a tab that has like where the blue sign's going to be kind of something like that along with the letter and then information about that project right and so they'd all go on there and then if was people were concerned about notices of that type going out in the community they could hit that subscribe and enter their email and anytime anyone in the city goes out at Auto emails to them well right now the project page provides some really great information that Dwight's updating regularly it might be as simple as if there's any Associated meetings with it linking it to that thoughts on that P like like if we have an upcoming it's going to be on this agenda it does listen so so so it it it links to it or listen okay I think the advantage to Tom's proposal though is it's a push doesn't rely on somebody going to the Project's page to be aware of what's going on it's a push after someone initially goes yeah and then somebody can unsubscribe if they get tired of getting the push which they probably will but at least then it's on them we could talk about that and figure out a way to do that cool that that should be a good delivery solution sounds good we hear it too like nobody ever told us that and then sometimes I'll say well it's been on the council agenda for like a year you know yeah sometimes it's hard to forget that like unless we I come to your house and knock and say hey we're thinking a half mile down the road we're we're thinking about letting someone put a new barn right thank you for hearing me out sorry if I derailed you did good you that's what we're here for are you looking for additional feedback on task one sure sure if you have I had one I think we're doing couny sorry one thing that I wanted to suggest is we we talked about trying to figure out how to incorporate agriculture in some of these Parcels we added it to transitional rural commercial but not to rural commercial I'm thinking that's because the intent isn't to keep rural commercial as a open Farm field but maybe we would want to consider adding vertical agriculture as a permitted use to enable some component if somebody was looking for a place to site you know a vertical farm for tomatoes or that sort of thing my only concern with that is the water usage that would entail so I think um maybe it'd be good for me to get some feedback on whether that's something that would be typical for a well versus I think that vertical farming definitely makes sense within the Musa but my understanding is they're fairly water intensive um so I don't I just want to make sure that it' be a compatible use water you could look into it won't that be addressed by the wed anyways so like if it as a city we don't need to necessarily harp on it because the water shed is going to be all over water use might be more would a well be sufficient to actually just and making sure the uses make sense because it's in our district the in it specifically says the intent of this district is for uses that will not require Municipal Water or Municipal sewer so if it really is a use that would be water intensive it wouldn't make sense to have it specifically in that District so but I think I I to your point I think it's definitely something we could look into take a look at it I think if it's something we could do i' I'd be open to it I think someone asked at some point that we make all of our um areas available to farming and egg like no matter what um we don't dis dis dis allow farming as a pro major use in any area of our town correct so anything that doesn't currently have a use on the in the roal commercial would have previously been an agricultural use so they can continue oh okay they can continue operating it's just when it gets developed it's really not developed for agriculture use but someone could come in and do it if they wanted to the spirit moved them uh not in the real commercial we did I did want to add it back into the transitional real commercial because I think it would make sense to allow for someone to expand because there's still with the non-conformity there is still some limitations uh when it's a non-conforming use didn't you ask for that crew did I ask for farming in every capacity yeah and in most areas I thought that you no I I asked but it it would undo 50 years of work I asked for Zone agriculture would be ultimately just that you're preserving a component of land in every suburb or you know uh outer concentric circle of the Metro maintains a some sort of an agricultural okay so that food can get to our cities without passing an arm to leg but that is then it was explained by Kendra and now quite well that ultimately that was done away with in the 1980s when the development Rights was established okay um and so there is some egg land that's being managed uh by higher levels of government um but not zoned as Mo parts of most cities okay yeah we have a lot of land that is zoned in one of those one of those uh districts that that is currently being farmed and could continue to do that for 50 years if they wanted to probably depending on where they are in the city right my biggest thing was like we're leaving it up to the land order to choose rather than the city saying this is a valuable zoning reg right and so as soon as the land changes or the landowner says this isn't important anymore and what ultimately is happening is is that we push our small like our Farmers Market folk eventually it it as gas prices soared the summer of 2020 2021 it wasn't valuable for them to drive their produce because they couldn't sell it at a price that would make up for the gas they were spending to get it here right and so we're in this place where we can still try to do some things to preserve that rather than push it out right like everything from the Metro has kind of done is just push it farther and further so it was just an attempt to say what can we creatively do differently in the development of our city that maintains or retains some component of of you know an egg business um because it's you know foundational to the way our society Works to eat yeah an egood right that's yeah it's so loud now okay anything else on task one my oh I'm sorry you guys get the right away I am now done you're good but I'm done too so I appreciate you guys chiming in we're on we're on equal footing here my only um my only thought regarding uh like I think that the layout is fantastic I appreciate that we're getting some of the feedback um because I would hate to uh think I was representing folk in those areas if if they were actually desirous of something other um than what what my initial feeling is the only thing that I have ultimately as a concern is that because this is an um a you know not even showing up on the 2050 comp plan for the city right so it's even farther than that out we really need to think about the impact of whatever decision we make today on what eventually will be the development of that area and I just think that that is the struggle that we're feeling with this area here in 10 uh you know just south of 10 and and I think it was developed prior to Musa being here right and so the sort of like the grow house area the gas station that stuff and I think that often times um there needed to be like there's buildings that are unable to be used because they're not compliant with current code there's um as they switched from locations because they wanted to be bigger and so I just think about the The Snowball Effect on a later time frame that it might have if all of a sudden we surged with uh surged ahead in in higher density before we had a greater uh vision of what that area was going to look like more specifically so that's my only you know I guess uh thought is I lean less towards some of the latter options regarding development rights it feels like maintaining but clarifying feels like the um way where land owners really get to choose how those development rates are are uh used and on what plots they are kind of the mid options seem really a little bit more restrictive not necessarily permissive um so anyway but that third option where we're increasing the density for fold feels uh feels like um premature without a greater vision for what we want that area to really open makes sense appreciate that any other thoughts Mr Mayor just to clarify um did for the survey mailed invitation oring 500 ft or 1000t I think we said the 500 given that that's kind of what we're set up for and then with these other supplemental ways and trying to get it out to as many people as possible K can you please clarify the in increasing the density fourfold where's that coming from that was um under task one it was one of the latter options that was set up where we would do away with the development rights all together and instead just go based on a Model to do the two and a half minimum lot acre size so then it just indicated that the density rate would increase four times if we selected that as option uh it's page 9 of 13 and I believe it's option or it's label number five did you skip that page it was in the council it was in the I've I've been out of town till last night so like I read it it's Pages seven through nine have the options sorry Chad never do that um I know you don't I know Natalie was trying to get a number out and no one could hear could you say that again um so what she's referencing is the report that went to Council on April 25th where we outlined the uh different options that we could explore and at that time the direction was to memorialize the development rats at least for the draft and then move forward with a survey to explore those options further I think I'm going to say I love our development rights program and it's been here for a while 50 years and has gone through 20 election cycles and we're different and I think it's good I think it's different in a profoundly good way I it's it's an option but I would it would be a hill I'd die on but I don't think we're going to go that direction anyway so we don't need to have that big of a discussion but um for now I'll just say that's not that's not going to work for me I would agree I'm on option one on P s just clarifying the code to continue to apply as we have been you know and I'm I'm open to listening to the survey before I make my decision I think any major changes it would have to be something we'd have to have a ton of feedback to do something that that massive because like you said it's been here forever it is unique I don't know that I ever could have come up with that system but it's seems to work and it's it definitely makes this unique better not just unique better was in the 80s when it got8 I don't [Music] know1 was it 81 holy call George probably knows the day Dina just retired now the gloves are off now here we go Jesus 81 I was 19 years old I wasn't even born yet I was 10 ouch okay on to then task number two um the numbers thank you Natalie for getting that together that actually was Dwight just thank you Dwight for online Dwight for getting that together um that was I had an inkling we were higher than most I didn't know it was that much higher than combined is that it was it was I I put this forward as a moratorium and is there a possible way to say no more until further notice um may' be removing it from from the yeah which is what's the drafts right now would do that do we have to vote for that or how do we do that if you want me to move forward with a public Hearing in July with the first task two we can I don't think anyone's opposed to that it's not a long discussion I don't think but yeah if we're ready I think it would have been longer if we were going to try to look at standards to add to try to limit where it could go um we don't want to be the town where people store their craft exclusively we already are I hate to tell you that we we had some we did some stuff for the last six years to clean up a little bit but yeah officially there's a difference between unofficially storing your stuff there's the number of people that are oh yeah yeah I don't think you're going to get too much opposition there I get people come down my driveway all the time you get place to store my boat well we we like six years ago we just went through some tuning up of the ordinances of people getting semi- trailers out of their front yard and so we're moving towards not unofficially allowing and then now we're moving towards like officially disallowing it so I don't know yeah we can have a discussion but I think we're all on board with disong that I think that makes sense worth where we are and and if it Chang the future as more of the city is is developable long time down the road it would just be a change to add it in somewhere at that yeah that's pretty good research we have almost yeah not interest it's telling we've done our duty yeah larger L sizes would let somebody store their motor home on the side of their garage then we just got to be I'm telling you like we got to be tight on that stuff because this can be a beautiful suburb MH um and you travel anywhere and there are a lot of it it's like a place this far out the Metro can go one of two directions it can be like a place where people are like wow that is amazing I want to live there MH or it can be like total opposite any car that has entered that city has never left CU they're all in everyone's yard like we have to make that distinction and I and yep no I think that makes I think we're all on the same page on on yeah and just to be clear this is mini storage and Self Storage doesn't get rid of like accessory exterior storage for a business um and we do have rules we have code we do we do have code um that we require you can't put up an accessory structure before a house because part of people would put up pool barns that they would use for storage so that helps with how we handle Residential Properties um so that's already in code and then um oh we do allow for some parking of uh RVs on on your property to to kind of offset the need for a storage unit um but you can't do that with a 6 foot 7 and2 foot side yard no not more outside than me redefine the side yard is I wanted the yard to be anywhere budding a road but I got outed on we recently updated it though so that even people in renia if it didn't not necessar rinia that might not be a great example but newer developments could have it in the front yard as long as it met the 25 5 foot step back um and didn't violate an HOA that's what I was to say HOA is is not going to going be I'd rather have the city be an Lim how long you can have I don't I don't want to rely on the HOA for keeping our town Town nice so I'd rather is there a way that we can match the not match but kind of match the HOA so we don't rely on the HOA to keep our I would not want to match the ho no I know like we're not GNA go in there I lived in HOA and I moved out I don't I I don't like HOAs we people moved to Coran to get a out of those but like to have some stricter like I don't want to rely on HOAs for not having RVs in people's front yards but we changed it recently that was direction from Council to allow RVs in the front yard as long as it met the front setback that was that was a recent change from this Council yeah um because there was um there were quite a few people that were upset that they couldn't store their RV in their driveway and so we went ahead and change that yeah and I don't think it's as much people people in whether it's more maybe it could be within the mus but in existing home we didn't we didn't discriminate the rules if if you could make it work your driveway is basically the to have it on like a certain surface yeah it has to be on an improved surface yes yeah but that's also kind of a separate storage topic yeah I just wanted to make sure that because we I think I just want to make sure we were on the same page that the direction would be to move forward with a public Hearing in July that removes self storage and Mini Storage from the two districts that's currently allowed in we should do more of these because I feel like we should be on the same table all the time well at least half of them are talking with us the other half you're just sitting observing so well just give us time give Peter and Mark time give them time I just I'm calling them out now so okay so yes I think so item two I think is Task two is done yep yeah or Direction on the road to completion yep Y and then task so we have time y a little bit not too much actually we've got tons of time 6:45 oh I was thinking 6:30 why do we end these at 6 6:30 got to sit and twiddle our thumbs have I was just thinking that was Alan's fault Alan always wanted I think it was fault got throw we got to spend every minute we're going to be together I think we were over budget like 1992 I'm pretty sure that was yeah take down the table there's no reason that's one thing that bothers me about these things is we have a half an hour to just sit yeah well let's keep going keep going keep going item three um that's your natal could you give us the summary again yeah so task three is a comprehensive update right now the scope that has been identified by Council for this update was specific to the district uses uh potentially simplifying the table where it makes sense where do we not call out uses that should be added and um where what uses do we kind of want to pull out in terms of adding some additional standards to so that the table of uses is at the back the last five pages of the packet the Planning Commission had intended to look at the first page at our last meeting but we called the meeting short due to a lack of facilities um and so the intent if we didn't get to it today was for the Planning Commission to look at the first two pages at our next meeting in June um but if we wanted to start kind of tackling some of that now as a group we can certainly do that yeah I think there's any initial thoughts we want to get out and then still have planning do it and then it'll come back to us I had a few go for it uh looking at senior dwellings on page not page sorry in the PDF it's page 40 okay uh what's like the top table of uses and what's the first use second table of uses first one is conditional home occupation gotcha gotcha so senior dwelling is toward the bottom it's only permitted in dmu currently I feel like that would make equal sense in general mixed use I don't know why you would want to confine that only to downtown yeah I I agree with you I I I don't think that senior dwellings are specifically prohibited in any of our districts but we specifically call it out in one District so I think it's an area where um why are we calling it out really um I think a difference between an assisted living facility and a senior je there's a huge difference between an age restricted home versus assisted living facility that requires staing um so I think it makes sense to to pull those two out but maybe we just even remove the senior dwelling yeah it's just dwelling that I think that's an area where we could stand for some simplification okay and then the other one that jumped out to me was drugstores are only per Ed in C2 it seems to me that could make sense in a dmu GMU as well maybe even neighborhood commercial you often see those in a transition space to a neighborhood in C1 uh I would remove the recycling center I don't think that was on this page though that same I would add uh ghost kitchen somewhere in here ghost kitchen mhm have you heard of the these so it's like a restaurant but there's no seating it's a restaurant only for delivery service and sometimes what they'll do is have a larger commercial kitchen that they'll rent out Bays to different concepts so it's a nice way to start a small business there's not a lot of footprint there's not a lot of employees you don't have to manage setting up and room where were you thinking then I don't know exactly I think it could belong in a lot of places uh it doesn't necessarily have to just be in a commercial because you don't need resident parking or user parking I just saw uh a couple of these as incubators that started when I was still working in Shak that they were then able to create enough of a customer base to essentially move to a brick and mortar yeah so I do think it's an interesting creative solution uh as as we're trying to grow something like that um because it's lower risk right uh so so without all the overhead of having to buy all all the service materials tables and all that other stuff you start to create it's it's a lot like another good solution that worked was food trucks so so it's it's like food trucks in a in a brick and mortar yeah don't we have a don't we have a case tonight about that I having slightly less it's not technically a ghost kitchen because it's a specific user um I'm talking about on the 30 and 19 where it's less than slightly less than what we're looking for but like an incubator of some [Music] kind um I I'm feeling to make the connection to the GH kitchen if you could oh no it has nothing to do with the kitchens I'm talking about incubation they haven't talked about the kitchens started raising chicken so the farmers market stuff like I it's in two zones it's not a big deal but probably it could fit in some of the other ones M [Applause] okay to too big of a bite of a chip there sorry what was that I said once you're finished I have one oh go for go for it no please I was just thinking so I just have a question around drive-throughs and like restaurants and cafes with drive-throughs and this is on I don't know why don't you get to the RS um do we particularly allow drive-throughs in certain zones or I call out drive-throughs are typically a conditional use permit in all districts I think any any place that we allow a restaurant for the most part there's the option to get a conditionally use permit for the drive-thru it's pretty typical for cities to have it be a conditional use permit because some sites are really not going to allow for proper stacking um and so you want to have some control over the site that it would go into yeah um stacking screening lights sound all that didn't we have that yeah you talked about that a lot a couple years I don't know that we be opposed to it in a lot of cases but sometimes it might need an extra layer of scrutiny and maybe some added conditions and stuff like that yeah so um so I don't know why it might be that it's separated out on here I think drive-thru Lanes drive-thru businesses and so part of it too if we actually wanted to do a use table part of the reason why this is so clunky is because we call out uses differently in different districts and so if we wanted to um do an actual table of uses which some city codes do uh to make it a little easier to navigate we would compile like drive-throughs would just be one category it wouldn't have two different categories for drivethru oh I see it now okay um yeah I mean there's some minor ones that I wasn't even sure I just kind of put a question mark add on just expanding some of the ones like hardware stores would we want that in it any of the other commercial or mixed use type zones um or to that point why do we feel the need to specifically call out Hardware Source wouldn't that be retail is there a reason why we want to have it specifically called out in some areas um I think the same question is for a similar question is the how we handle butcher shops um I think that one there could be some there's a depending on where we want to locate it there could be some additional impacts that need to be considered for a butcher shop but uh that so maybe that one does get called out separately but for where are their uses that that would just be considered retail and allow for flexibility for that category to um respond if a hardware were to come in Hardware star were to come in and they started rentals and stuff and outside storage and all those kind of things that's that's where I was thinking when I saw hardware stores we would want something to protect neighbors and obviously help the business do things so yes no that's valid that's that's a valid use that you don't see with every um I just thought here would we see it ton of business or some folks down on 19 and 55 huge rental portion of their business and such so Highway 55 rental I mean all those things it there's yeah yeah so I think a hardware store cu I guess I'm thinking of like the little mom and pop hard store that's in the strip mall but to your point we that would also apply to a Home Depot or Menards that I'm thinking Farm yeah flea farm that has I'm not thinking that big I'm thinking I'd love to have one of those come if anybody's listening but but a True Value any of those Hardware Han those kind of things farm so covers everything man mall and what kind of butcher shop I never leave town is it is it a ho butcher shop or is it a Von Hansen's where they're doing clean you know so are we bringing live animals and taking them from who yeah so so that that could you might not want that next to McDonald's uh but fresh fresh hamburgers yeah just say but very different experiences there if they're back in the the the live animal uh trailer up to the butcher shop versus I'm going in to get my RI eyes for the weekend best reconnection to where your food really comes from you could possibly ever have but no I was going to say the same thing like and some of that is just dependent on uh if the butcher you know chooses to be like a USDA grade like some of that is on the business they want to start but if it be as a city distinguished where we would accept uh you know a spotter as well as um processing like it's center cut and Rogers it's not like if there was a McDonald's next door I wouldn't make i' go to I'd go to both I wouldn't be like oh my gosh there's raw meat over there I'm not going to that McDonald's but it just depends on the facility I do have a question like there higher quality meat today yeah there there's uh so like for example there I think we could parse this like crazy like a museum is only allowed in two um two different areas and I don't I wouldn't probably have I wouldn't probably object to a museum in most areas depending you know like depending on the museum but somebody could come in here and say Hey I want to put a museum in a rural resident or rural commercial area mhm and they they could apply and and still get their Museum these are just things that you don't even have to ask for just automatically right so it's not as if we would never allow it it's just per code mhm this what can go in there for permission to do yeah so you'd be looking at a zoning ordinance Amendment so I think it's helpful to think of what are the most common uses that we encounter that we anticipate in this area to try to figure out you know do we does it does do they need to be conditional uses um are we okay with some things moving to permitted use or are we okay with all of our permitted uses does something actually need to get moved to a conditional use category uh I think that would be helpful but yeah to your point if someone wanted to do a museum in the world commercial that that you know propos a museum on our agricultural Roots then they would come and ask for a zoning ordinance Amendment and we'd be able to evaluate it that way so if we wanted to be if we wanted to have these be more restrictive and have people ask we could just have have it be that way I guess I'm not objecting to the only objection I would have is if there's a standard that they could come in and so and put something where we don't want it and we couldn't do anything about it I'd rather lean towards being more restrictive and ask for permission than be less restrictive and say oh my God I can't believe we allowed that in that area agree and that's God agree sound like he agrees yes she excuse me oh I just have a quick question so back kind of back to the hardware store so like the way that this is laid out right now it's sort of layered right CU you can have like a hardware store qualifies as a retail store but then if you're talking a hardware store with outdoor storage you have a whole separate category that says outdoor storage as an accessory to an allowed use MH so when layered like that what is like it's whatever one is most like which one wins like right so for a hardware store since it's permitted in C2 they they would go what they would do is they would have to provide us with a site plan and the site plan is it has to meet all of our standards and then it must be approved by the council so if they had an exterior storage component then that part of the request would be approved by the cup so um you could theoretically approve the site plan without approving the cup or you could add additional standards as part of the cup but when it seems like so like I guess what I and maybe that was a bad example but like when you have um when you call out one request but then tagged on to that application it actually falls under two of the types here M it wouldn't ever like one would um I'm struggling to find the words but like let's say it's an allowed use um for instance in the C1 the the addendum to that application is an allowed use in um you know i1 or whatever but not in C1 because it would the default would fall to whatever zoning it is that they're actually like you correct yes yes so uh there are going to be uses in the i1 that are not going to be in the C1 and so it's always going to have a layered element to it yeah no matter what like even after we redo it right yeah there's always going to be some uses allowed in some districts over others if that's what that could be combined into one I think I may have misunderstood that part so it's always going to default to the zoning the zoning yeah so if a if a parcel is zoned for C 2 and they want to put in a um a funeral home for C2 but then they wanted to do an exterior storage component that's only allowed an i1 something like that y yep they would not be able to do that the only way P the only forward to be able to do that would be a zoning orance Amendment at that point okay yeah but if there's but typically there's an exterior storage cup for some use like you can in the i1 there's limited exterior storage that you can have um so typically you see those uses going into an industrial area for the most part anyways so like if a uh Fleet Farm with exterior storage and exterior maybe even retail like they have some flower stuff outside mhm where would that go um so we allow let me think Goa park on the corner it wouldn't but I I think that might not be a bad idea so it doesn't go to business park but the so it would go to retail Goods um it's a great question so it's a big box store so I would not go on C1 because C1 is supposed to be smaller stores in your retail used to cap a specific scare book so I believe it' be C2 as far as the exterior storage um okay um Rel so it's very hypothetical okay yeah sorry but it ising at my question is it does seem to have this like yes yes and so then you meet this piece you meet this piece we can bring those pieces together yeah in your application with a PUD with a PUD all these trigger puds so so the exterior storage I think we do have as an interim use I'm not seeing it on the table but I believe in as an interim use you can do some outdoor sales so if if they truly had permanent outdoor sales that weren't covered by an interim use permit we would be talking about a code change um as far as something that had Rental Vehicles parked um that's I think that that could just fall as part of their parking lot I don't think that because they'd be moving regularly so um I think that it would just be you just dedicated as part of their parking lot it wouldn't necessarily be an additional use well haven't haven't we run into problems with this is sidetracked a little bit but with some of the um repair facilities inside our commercial District where we get run into the definition of if the vehicles move every once in a while like is it storage or is it yeah and and so like it's it it we we run into gray all the time you and I have been back there before um but I also would lean on having slightly more complicated codes okay just because then we can be a little more selective as to what we want but that's that's just me I don't know I'm on Console now so I'd love to have a see maybe if I'm not on Console I'd be like have a different viewpoint but I think we want to be more selective as a town rather than just have an open architecture to having people do whatever they want I agree to that point I think a particular passionate issue for some and maybe it's covered under just like General retail but like dispensaries oh my God sent her a note that's so fun we're going to have literally ask question I don't see that on here I was also thinking are you passionately for or against dispensaries um more against than for okay I am a millennial so more openminded than others I don't know we've talked about it a lot I've been I've been at the meetings when it's been talk about we can't always decide that on City though the dispensary laws are so I could be getting out of hand if you just like can't turn them away it's out of unless it's already out of hand and then the other thing I didn't see on here was I didn't mean to put you in the spot no not at all event venue wedding venue so I there's another one as far as wedding so keep in mind this doesn't show our residential districts so our Urban reserve and our rural residential do allow for event centers where that could be used as a wedding venue as a Event Center that would be the I believe it's an i approval it is yeah and then um I do think there may be some incoming discussions on um adding aggra businesses in our rural residential as well that would allow for things like the um table um potentially or some kind of like you know having apple picking on site just allowing making sure that that's clearly an allowed occupation on agricultural land and then uh we're starting to see some smaller land that's not technically agriculture in terms of how our zoning ordinance defines it but they're using it for production of want grapes for wine um so how you know how can we incur it because that is something that's still uniquely even though it's not on 10 acres um it's a and then they got to get an alcohol permit too yeah but well sometimes yeah you're right they do but yeah I think that there's I think that's a slightly different discussion what's in front of us now because it's more that's what's happening more of our rural residential area than it is in our commercial area but I do think that those conversations are important to have and may even be incomer in terms of a potential application yeah cuz I was thinking about the Rogers Event Center you know mhm might technically be residential but it feels like it's like right kind of in there downtown there it's not a barn venue it's more corpor right but I mean we we could get a proposal like that I think too like as as we move forward as a town sometimes maybe we want to loosen the restrictions on things like Agra business BEC just like there are some towns that have decided we want to have um breweries like we don't have any breweries in cor they're in about every District allowable yeah I know but but if you make it easier to have a certain business in our town we might attract those kind of businesses so if we're like if you want to put a apple cider place where people can come and tour and stuff that's cool if you want to put a winery that's cool but and make it less restrictive to do the things that we want it like when I we want to have done and make our town geared towards that kind of thing then maybe we tune the code to like really encourage that and then discourage like um three story storage units with semi- trucks that come every day like maybe we don't want that so we make it a little harder to have that kind of facility but easier to do aggra business mhm mhm absolutely when when you're talking about dispensaries we also have to think about cannabis farming uh which which we have more land and Avail when so when you talk Agra business we're a prime target uh for a lot of folks that are thinking about cannabis farming and we're going to have to make some decisions about where the city stands on that how do you I think we'll have manage it potential places wanting to do that than dispens czy even for me I don't know if you get that or you get that but for me people reaching out and wanted to grow cannabis on we've had some yeah there's a lot of people that want two or three years ago it is allowed under Cottage food law right now in the state of Minnesota and so I don't know um Beyond saying where we permanent I don't know what we as a city can do right but but just as when you talk about you're creating an environment that Fosters and pretty soon what happens if we become known as the the community where everybody grows PT yeah then then trespassing become trespassing becomes an issue well random RVs become issues is layered right because to get a a food license so that you could directly grow and then sell as to Consumer is super cumbersome through the county and through the state and so you know if there's ever an opportunity to advocate for making it easier for small to medium Farmers to be able to you know you know get access to those food license and not be uh under the same regulations as large caes and large operations and that's the opportunity um that then we can encourage those individuals to be able to use their land for growing you know chicken and turkey and HS instead of canas that to another question I don't know is there ever a size component to this like a way to yes we can certainly yeah yeah because it's like how do we Foster up more of a local hardware store than a big box or a local bakery than a yeah we have retail so typically um sometimes the problem with the size constraint is you can realize too late that it's super arbitrary and now you're putting someone through a zoning ordinance Amendment for example we were speaking with someone looking at an existing site that wanted to do a CrossFit Center and uh we allow for recreational facilities under many square feet in that district and it seems arbitrary like why wouldn't we allow it for for an additional 3,000 ft so sometimes it's like you don't really realize how arbitrary those size limits become however it's not unusual to see uh some kind of size component to try to limit particular like retail stores because to try to Avid a big Bo store yeah we want that's okay in C2 but not C1 so I went it's Was Not Unusual it's just you want to also be mindful of making sure the limit um furthers are interest without being too limiting um just because approval processes can be um grueling as it is and where where especially if they're already going to have to apply for a conditional use permit then why would why are we worried about the size limit because we that's something that we could control as part of the cup so it's just an example I like what you're saying there I would suggest we also combine health clubs and fitness centers with the health clubs and fitness centers less than 5,000 square fet just make it one without a size limit because in the C1 we already have 50,000 ft limit overall I believe which would prevent it from getting too oversized and we have things like impious service limits too that I think helps to kind of constrain some of that as well and I would maybe add it to C2 as an option as well sure I think one of the challenges becomes if it hasn't been developed ever so if we're talking about a lot of these Parcels that need infrastructure it is too ensive for small businesses to front the bill on all of that and so that would be my only uh I think that's why you see sort of this trend where all of a sudden what moves in first to a community is all the big box and then when people are tired of that then they leave and then all of a sudden you see this help business come back because now the building is there right the water's been put in the road done all they have to do is come back to the business and so if there's a way we could I I mean this is you asked it once before is there any way to help with that financing options right for some of those small businesses I know that's a nightmare like I see the looks being exchanged right um but I just would hate to to um have fewer applicants for things because we've put a size limit on it and then now the cost of of implementing is beyond the reach of a wider variety of people that's the only both sides of that I guess I I don't think we need to put side restrictions on those because most those small mom and pop stores the true Val's Hardware Hanks it for dog and Hardware they already have a footprint in mind they're looking for a certain size parcel those kind of things it's kind of a self self- policing they're they're they're managing it on their own and looking for properties like that so I don't know if we want to put that much into this one thing that I was messing when we talked when somebody said fural home we had a nightmare from my previous experience and stuff we don't have crematories funeral homes cremation type deals there was one just in a neighboring Community has that been limited to where they can go do we need to consider something like that funeral homes and marar and C2 is a permitted juice but that's not a crematorium that's not cremation no so they can have a blast furnace in there and do whatever they want in those is that the way it was cuz of whatever to huh less byproduct well yeah I just where it was before when you're talking uh what what you're going to need the infrastructure in order to deal with a crematorium doesn't need to deal with all those other chemical residuals and all that other stuff that's it's cleaner but it was a event because it was within 750 ft of a neighborhood and people were worried about the uh The Fallout from the exhaust [Music] from the place you're talking about well there was another one oh that didn't go in over by Walmart so don't want to be the asking about that just you're you're your tables are freaking complete unbelievable but when somebody said that that nightmare came up in my mind and yeah I don't see that we Creator is on anywhere in our uses and if it's not specifically called out it is assumed to be excluded that's not considered like a recreational fire or anything like that no not we have burn permits I I make light of it it's a serious conversation so well so like uh Corr and Pet Care will cremate animals but I think they send them away don't they so so one thing Karen to your point about we run into problems with paying um like how do we differentiate who we help and who we don't it's it's always a huge problem like what's small what's big um so like obviously we'd ra I think we'd rather have small than big um for anyone watching like the 15 of us are we have a blank e we have a blank slate and we're trying to come up with something to make we're playing Sim City with our town and it's so hard to have it be right MH and so it man I would challenge anyone who gets frustrated with how our town ends up or where it's going or whatever come sit here because we have 15 people who are pretty smart and it's so damn tough to figure out where we want to be in 15 years this is an impossible conversation it's awesome though because we have PE people passionate about it but this is so challenging it is tough a map of well I just was G say we want to look at maybe it's what what zoning map just to be able to see where these different yeah I can f the zoning map one [Applause] second did get messed with where ised somewhere um I think it's listed under there's no Brewery or bar under those words Natalie brought them up didn't you bring them up at some point no there was something else it was like P Tavern is listed Tavern that's what I think it is yeah would that be the same no not t distributes Brewery creates right yeah so we don't have it yeah so we would we would need to specifically call it out if we wanted to allow breweries we're like 10 years late on that Trend now they're closing not opening that's true it is but I thought we had I thought we did too um I thought we talked about this like three years ago I'm not finding it yeah CER is also cidery are those no I think that um might be different function try see if I but um your point thank you sorry no you're fine um so as far as where the districts are located uh this purple is our light industrial so I have that right here right here and down on 55 we have a couple of light industrial um like the old Napa site is part of our one area we have one other property that's randomly zoned C1 up here the rest is C2 so it's a slightly larger car friendly commercial area and then uh we also have some C2 again down on 55 and then we have our downtown mixed use right here and then our general mixed use is on the 30 Corridor with a little bit up on the Steep property as well that's where all the commcial there are some of the terminologies just out to dat like out of okay because like at nursing home like I don't think we rarely are they able to call that any longer so the last time we had a comprehensive update to my understanding was in about 2003 so it's about 20 years out of okay and so when we're when we're staying nursing home what we're in effect meaning is anything that has I believe so like gu just a similar yeah yeah I could I could do a little bit more digging to see if there is we have like assisted living facility again there's it's the reason why part of the reason why we have uses that change across each district is because we call out uses in each district the way you avoid that in in other cities is just to do a use of table so that the uses are uniform throughout the district so you don't have those weird discrepancies like well why do we allow nursing homes here but not here but we allow Memory Care Memory Care here what is the difference that we're trying to call out between the two so it's um so if we wanted to move towards a table of uses as PRI of our code and that's certainly something to help kind of clean it up and and just for my understanding I apologize princi but a table of usage basically calls out the zoning and permissible in that opposite of this rather than calling out and say good one that's the one that take down a plan yeah and so typically you typically have one that's for residential districts and then have one that's commercial industrial it's got Jeremy's name on it so we're getting the the hook got couple minutes left to to wrap do they officially end at 645 sense to have those separate I think staff would like it just so we can turn over get it actually scheduled 5:30 to 6:30 but in recognition of your desire to continue discussion I move to adjourn we have a second if if I can say something can we have one yeah one minute to wrap him and I have been talking too and we can't get enough input from the Planning Commission parks and the citizens of our town we cannot get enough yeah anyone watching a formal meeting like this is great but it would be nice to see some of these suggestions and stuff if you've got something that comes out of the Planning Commission come give it to Natalie get it to the council and get her input back kind of deal instead of yeah something quite as organized not quite as organized as this we don't have to wait for this this long to have your input on these things I found this to be super valuable just listening to what you guys have to say absolutely appreciate it guys that's what I have to say Well done Lindsay you got another minute to wrap up John Jeremy a motion second second all those in favor say hi we're still