uh not necessarily everything but I really value the amount of effort that's gone into creating open natural space I commented when we talked about this before I had preferred to see it a little bit more Consolidated but I think with the addition of the 1.2 acres in the northwest corner as well as the excessive planting that we're going to see in 10 years I think this could be an excellent example of the kind of integration of residential and natural space I haven't seen anybody else try to do something at this level of integration and I would really like to see what can be done I think it could end up being a very positive example for other developers when we see somebody able to make things work integrating with other developments adjacent to them and delivering more than the required minimum level of open space I think it would be foolish to turn down on lack of public benefit when they're achieving the things that we put into public benefit policy to a great degree and the flexibilities being requested are relatively minor I think the safety issues are addressed with Provisions we can put in for the southeast access point and I don't see any other significant reason to reject we should also consider the advantage that we get a Maple Hill Road making a context sorry a contact angle that is safer with path Lake Road so there's a safety benefit to that point and by approving we could ensure that we minimize construction traffic through residential neighborhood for the neighborhood developing to the East and avoid that having only a single Road access point I think uh I do we have to uh put the motion as an affirmative in this case uh no can you make a motion deny okay which is what the motion was which is the same as not achieving potential I'm just being point of order um trying to think what you're getting at um I'm just asking if if if it requires an approval of four of five is a motion to does the motion deny deny requ four fifths I don't believe so no no no no does the motion to deny that you would be accepting the resolution of denial which you could do with a simple majority that yeah the the only thing is that the Pud requires uh four fifths to approve to approve is a denial that gets more than to votes the same as if not getting a 4 fths on an approval I think it would mean that so typically let's say that motion had been made the other way to approve it there was at least two yeah uh no votes then it would fail then we would probably have to bring a motion to deny them so technically and then that would pass enough so I I I want toally I want to say that we are facing a deadline yes and and so this isn't the the list is long but I just don't feel like it's that needy for the public benefits and I think it's close but we but uh but time is up you want to send me a letter right now is that what you're saying I mean you're spending $2 million on brok that are not are offsite so I mean you approve Fairway shorts without so I mean you have to beon toas I have a pending motion we do have a motion and a second Is there further discussion on that thanks for reminding me um then we will take all call the mo uh call the vote uh all those in favor and for clarification the motion is to deny all in favor say I I I opposed nay nay okay thank you um so that didn't denies the application I'm trying to think if there's further motions we need to make here um no that denies the entire application okay um for findings of fact yes so um so the findings of fact it would help if we could bolster it the language right now that was presented was uh very general information just based off of what we put in our findings in the code um and so I think specifically just some specific examples in this application as in paragraphs three and seven so that I'm not guessing at what those standards are um then we can I can make those changes everyone could f and help Natalie out with I'm just going to stand what I said could you try to summarize that just briefly John yeah but I in my opinion I don't think the public benefits enough to give flexibility [Applause] ons okay Mark uh I'm I'm happy to share with you my my comments in their entirey if that's helpful but is that my concern was Public Safety in and out of a single entrance but there were two access points the problem with that we're not going to entitled to my opinion that's my opinion we just need the facts um for the for that resolution okay um is that what you need did you have anything to add uh i' support those um that I guess a little more in depth there was some of the flexibilities that I just was kind of to John's Point not far off but I'm not uh quite there in that benefit weighing that I think that's all of the motions and resolutions on that corre okay we'll move on to we have no unfinished business uh we'll move on to new business um we do have a public common opportunity for yes can I pause you briefly on do you need an approval of the specific resolution or do you maybe just for formality if we could specifically uh get a motion to approve than you things approve the alternative resolution for denial 202 2472 um with those changes um as discussed by the council then um we should be set to go on that so Mr Mayor just to clarify then staff would just memorialize the denial as the resolution 20472 as amendment is that correct yes 24 72 okay uh someone want to make that motion on resolution 2472 as amended I'm sorry looking for a motion on uh the amended resolution 202 2472 I'll make a motion it's uh the amended to for the inverse for yeah I'm sorry I'm trying to worries you make a motion uh John uh do I have a second second second lanterman any further discussion I'm confused it is just uh procedurally for Natalie approving the specific denial resolution because before the motion was to just deny and so we want to have a a resolution approving a we want a motion to approve a specific resolution so it's the motion on the table would be to approve the alternative 2024 72 which denies the project as amended with the findings provided by Council d get you understand maybe H or you have another question no okay um so we have a motion and second any other discussion on that then all all those in favor say I I I opposed that carries thank you I think that should be on to 10 uh new business we have a midyear code enforcement update and staff has a couple questions specifically for us amongst that yeah I did not yeah I didn't not prepare a slide deck for this one um Dwight did compile some data um in terms of the total inspections completed and the typical violations that were seeing um sent implementation of a warning letter before going to a violation notice which was implemented not last year but the previous year we have seen a number of decrease or a significant decrease in the cases that are going to the city attorney and that is true again this year so something to celebrate in terms of things reaching compliance before anything gets going into the cart court system for the most part um we had mostly storage new nuisances uh this past year weed nuisances we've had a couple of Home occupation violations that we've had to work through um some sign violations which are typically fairly easy to work through once they go through the permitting process uh a few con a few construction hour violations which were captured in a previous discussion earlier this year um a couple animal nuisance violations uh couple public obstruction nuisances one building nuisance and then there were some other miscellaneous violations such as a unpermitted solar energy system is one that we are continuing to work through what what's a public obstruction so something like within the right of way something yeah or a trail something like that thank blocking the flow of traffic um so what as far as questions on how to proceed we've had two uh cases come up that's been a little bit unclear uh one the it was a came up with a seasonal Agra business that's operating out of a residence without any registration or approval with the city and that has been the case for a number of years uh City staff made a couple uh sent a warning letter which is our process once this really came to the Forefront um with this property owner the letter requested a meeting so that we could sit down with them understand their operations uh because we believed that the home occupation ordinance wasn't going to be something that that they'd be able to operate under we'd have to look at potentially adding a different use under code for aggro businesses um so we were trying to work with him uh but he received this as um are we can we get clarification of that I'm trying not to say anyone's specific name happy to share with that outside of the meeting but I wasn't the the intent here is we've had situations where we tried let keep it broad on this one for okay all right I'm when you say somebody's operating an Agri business I'm like well so do a lot of people in well that's exactly true but we are complaint only model it must have some specific thing that maybe should whatever I'll take your word for it yeah well I'm happy to provide all the specifics I was just trying to do this in a way that didn't necessarily provide someone's name or location um but yes I I think you're correct that there's this is not the only aggra business in the city and I think there should be a pathway for it established because as as as we celebrate our rural Roots why wouldn't we want to see some aggro businesses such as an apple orchard um or a v wine v um Winery uh I can't say the word Vineyard thank you something like that where there might be um some customers coming to the site which is outside of the scope of our home occupation ordinance anyways um we just have to be considerate about the impact of the neighbors absolutely and that's why um we would it would have to be a code amendment process where we could share those considerations unfortunately though my attempt to work with this specific property owner once I could no longer turn a blind eye to the situation um he felt harassed and did become fairly aggressive uh with multiple staff members particularly when he couldn't get a hold of me directly so the concern being um when we had the switch and City administrator this kind of went to the bottom of priorities we wanted to um wait and before racking the boat um and the concern is this is unresolved this is an unresolved violation now from the end of 2022 and we have not uh really understood how best to move forward the next process and the step would be to send uh this case to the City attorney um if the ultimate goal is compliance and knowing that he uh has already felt harassed um I can guarantee you that this will lead to further conversations with not just staff but he'll probably be reaching out to council as well so before we send it to the City attorney if that's the next step um want to make sure that we're all on board on the same page with that um if it goes to the court system and then he doeses become more willing to work with us as far as a a quote Amendment we can always switch gears at that point um but that theoretically in our next process next step in the process that's how it will move forward and he's going to be upset um the next item is a a business that there was a complaint submitted to the city that they had done some improvements um and it became clear that the improvements were completed without approval from the city council um the they have met with City staff and have been fairly Cooperative through the process however when they went to go get the private costs quoted um they were hit with a $10,000 bill this is an addition to um the city fees and escros um the security that they would have to U submit for any corrections they need to make as part of a site Improvement performance agreement um and then they also their septic system is failing so they that was really a priority for them this year to get that done um and so they can't do it all and they had asked for an extension so my question at this point is um what would be an reasonable extension I'm not business savy I have no idea what the expectation is for cash flow and how long would it be 3 months as a reasonable extension is six month a reasonable extension again we could just send this to the city attorney's office but if money is a constraint for them and compliance is the ultimate goal I don't see what that would do so an extension seems reasonable but I also want to make sure that we keep momentum going forward so just needing help identifying um what would be a reasonable timeline so those were my two areas I wanted to discuss tonight thank you um maybe I'll speak to the first one first uh the aggro business I've seen some of what Natalie was talking about firsthand and I agree with your assessment of it and how how it's gone in the past um which I think is unfortunate because I think the general type of obviously the devil's in the details but the general type of use is something that this Council would be generally supportive of of trying to help you know a small business Agra business in that part of the city uh operate and and be successful um but it doesn't seem likely that the owner is wanting to work with us on that so I don't know if it's best to send it to the City attorney to try to go down that route and then maybe that changes his attitude on it I don't know is this a code violation or is it a crime code violation well technically codes are Petty misdemeanors I I believe so depends on some of them are Mis okay um I'm guessing this would be a zoning violation it is a zoning violation be misdemeanor corre have there been any types of threats not to me directly no the biggest threat was you wanted to file a police report against me I'm towing the line at okay yeah okay the uh you got more no I just always think about like eal protection clause and we have to treat everyone the same and so when somebody comes and says I my my neighbor is doing this we have an obligation that if it's against the code we have to it do what we can to the extent that we can as a city to enforce the Zone otherwise if we just selectively you know like if I said well Natalie tell me about this person are they nice well you know you know other we can't do any of that we have to it's so black and white from our chair um to me that we have to proceed along the the route otherwise we're not being f to the person who's impacted impacted by that I agree have we let them know that that is an option for them I think we did to come in to do his owning to talk to council to try to see if there's a route U that was the so the letter I specifically said that I tried to set up a meeting to discuss their business operations I made it very clear the intent was not to shut them down the int was to work with them to identify a pathway forward which may include a discussion with Council for a zoning ordinance Amendment so I I try it's funny because um by thought I was very strongly worded in the letter and then and then when Jay looked at it he said I was very wish-wash so I iine I thought it was pretty good that's J doesn't that so I think I did a good job but um unfortunately um it must have hit um a Nerf and he took it a very hostile he was very hostile response back I think you guys are right though that we we I'd love to hear more specifics and understand and be an understanding as possible we can't get that unless he or she comes in front of us we would continue to encourage and let's say on the record that we'd like to work with them or you know at least look into that and hope that they'd come in um but absent that I think we have to proceed with what John said agree so can I propose one potential alternative that I think will help staff and this was discussed when I first arrived is uh for for me uh to make one effort to try and talk to them uh so staff has tried we we talked about this as an alternative and uh if at that level staff is still being rebuffed then would request that we advance to the next level so we we will have exhausted all of our options right now uh we we have a department director that's tried uh this this would be the last of our capacity that we we haven't exhausted yet in terms of my engagement um we've talked about it it just hasn't happened uh so that that is an alternative proposal to consider as far as us demonstrating we've done everything that we can mhm if you're comfortable with that man and I talked about it so I'm not going to pull up in my vehicle and say how do you and I'll add their business is fairly seasonal so right now and I think that's when I tried to reject because we were became aware of the situation again we were aware of the situation for a few years but came to point where we couldn't ignore it in uh winter of 2022 um I intentionally did not reach out until 2023 um with the idea of I wanted it to be clear I wasn't trying to shut down his business during the busiest season of the year I wanted to give it try to have this handled before the next season um that effort did not work um so right now they are not operating my understanding at least if they are not operating they don't really go until full swing into winter so now might be a good chance to try one more time because the technically we can't even do the violation notice until winter when they're operating again so we took have a bit of time to work through that yeah that makes sense to me I I would submit that strategies worked uh fairly well with some of our other businesses in town in terms of hey can we chat and uh we've been able to come to some resolution about some some long-standing issues so that works for me if it works for the rest of council yeah absent that then we just proceed yep Y and we don't have a choice at that point so we're calling this toin option and then Tobin option to see if it works and to see if they're willing to work with us and if not then we'll have to go by what the code is I like plant T plant t uh the second one is kind of an opposite situation as Natalie uh mentioned where it's a a business that is wanting to cooperate seemingly uh they have been Cooperative have some Financial issues and some other projects that have tied up Capital potentially um and I guess the question is what is a reasonable accommodation if we want to give one that we can and the reasonable accommodation is related to the septic or no so I think I think they're kind of out of options and they need to be able to connect to to city sewer and water this year um I think their their septic is failing and um so I think that that really is a priority for them right now and I think I think I would be hard up to say that that isn't a priority um so then the question is the the accommodation would be uh as far as getting a site plan um because he has to get a site plan drawn up by a private surveyor and then going through the city approval process which also has cost and can be significant just the deposit for this process would probably be at least four uh I think it's about at least 3500 for the escrow plus fees and then if there is any kind of site Improvement performance agreement on the back end there's a Financial Security component so the fees start to add up quite a bit and so I think at this point in order to allow them to get some cash flow what would be a reasonable timeline and I'm asking for your opinion because again I'm not a business owner I don't know what would be a reasonable time to save up at least $10,000 but the 10,000 is for their that's just for the private surveyor to drop a site plan and some engineering plans and a certificate of survey and then what about the rest of the costs there's a additional cost that's what I'm saying so just to save up that much if so they need help on this and then are they going to come back to the well to ask for more I don't I don't know that at this point I'm just trying to figure out what reasonable extension would be to try to allow them to get some more Capital ready to move forward with this would they be doing the work now well that's the unfortunate problem the parking lot was already expanded but before they understood that they needed to have that be approved as part of the site plan plan and I think without knowing for sure with a survey I believe it might be in the step back so what's going to either what's going to happen with this is they're either going to need to remove the parking lot Improvement potentially if it is within the setb I don't know yet um they might have to remove a portion of it or they might have to relocate it but there's some kind of site Improvement that may potentially be needed um which and there may be a variance component as part of the request okay so that's kind of where I don't know until I see a survey and having that drawn up um there's some cost to it gotcha I um I don't want to sound callous by what but why is there cash flow problems our issue it's not but ultimately my understanding is Code Enforcement the ultimate goal is compliance that is ultimately the goal so we could move this forward to the City attorney but then now they have to get capital for an attorney to represent them and so if the concern is capital flow and we just ultimately want them to comply and if there's a going from then it doesn't necessar them to a point where they can afford the approval process they don't they don't have to get an attorney no I mean it's it's not like they have to hire a $2,000 an hour attorney to go and talk to a judge about city ordinance again the ultimate goal is to get them to comply and if the ultimate goal is we want them to get here why would we waste their time with court proceedings when the ultimate goal goal would be for them to come here to get their approvals I think a reason why is because um these things can drag on forever and we've had so many instances of somebody we had someone with a a Zone violation that went back to the court six times and got an extension and it went on for like three years and I don't even know if that's resolved or not but that was uh so um I almost think it's almost like the same thing is before where we have some obligation to the city but um and they have options that doesn't involve corkin not giving them a special favor because otherwise everybody would come in here and say oh man I just you know my car broke down last week and I got to get I got to get a you know it if this is a prevention of excuse mongering to the nth degree not saying they're doing it but if you open that door and say if you come in here with a sad story we'll we won't enforce quote against you could could I say something in terms of the character of this transaction differentiating from the last one uh uh the the orientation uh of the business owner has been I want to comply and I'm constrained and here's so so I think just speaking cly I I'm not disagreeing with the position that why why is there Financial Capital problems our problem it It ultimately becomes our problem because they don't have the resources to comply and we want them to comply that that's how it becomes our problem and so uh if if the goal of Code Enforcement is to help them comply um are we going to achieve our desired end state with that strategy that that's my question and I'll just add to go ahead if I me Mr just to to interject something that maybe the council would want and I think uh what the what council BMA and and Minister chobin just discussed is the perfect counterbalance for this consideration it wouldn't be something you do on an everyday basis or it wouldn't be do something something you do commonly but it would be something you would do in a situation where you had a serious and pressing nuisance situation that needed to be corrected immediately but finances were the only barrier and you were in a position to help one thing that you could consider doing is Contracting for the work yourself under an assessment agreement and you could assess incrementally back to the property the cost of that that would effectively Finance the project for them get it done you could charge interest at at a rate you set um so it isn't a handout but it would allow you to potentially negotiate an immediate resolution of the of the issue and collect the the costs on a on a delayed basis that's something you can consider again I understand C's point that you don't want it to be you're not a bank and you don't want to turn into one but um you know for specific oneoff scenario you could entertain that as as I just wanted to throw that out appreciate and I I just I hear I hear you J let's do so I'm okay with that John Natalie Dean okay sorry uh the other thing I'll say is um the success rate here where we have of things not going into the City attorney and because we have a compliance is really for the most part my approach to code enforcement has been if they're communicating with me if they're making progress then I'm not going to send it to the City attorney now once they stop communicating with me once they're once they haven't done a single thing to start resolving the solution that's when I send it and so we're at a point where he's still communicating with me but he hasn't been able to get the finances in place to move forward with actually starting to resolve and he might have made some Savings in this I I don't know that it's necessarily zero dollars have been saved towards it he knows it's coming really what I'm looking for in this instance s it's a business I'm trying to understand what a reasonable timeline we think maybe it's 2 months maybe it's more than that I don't know um whereas like with a residential code enforcement I feel like it's a little easier to just see progress towards cleaning up um junk vehicles and okay we've got three removed let's keep moving forward and I usually do it on about a two to four week extension to and then eventually put them on kind of an agreement where there's targets they have to hit if it gets really serious this is just a little different and that ultimately they have to go through a site plan approval process and that's ultimately what we have to get to so that's kind of Westside Tire is an extreme example and I don't want it to necessarily drag on years like that one did um but so I'm thinking more within a couple of months but is it two months is it six months that's where I'm at and I guess the only caution there would be if it's six months we're really talking about something being done at early as next summer I think it's possible even if we were to rush it for two month that might be true but even um if we're talking about something submitted in two months it's likely that that would be next year anyways too how much time are they asking for instead of us saying well one month is reasonable two weeks is reasonable what are they asking for are I mean he the call last call I had with him he was just asking for anything so I think he just because I had given him a deadline and he wasn't able to meet it and so at this point just trying to understand like I I I already thought I tried to give a reasonable deadline um and that was not doable how long was that that was um in the last couple of weeks no I mean how how long of a so I did you offer him an extension already and he couldn't I didn't really offer him an extension I just gave him a deadline of when I needed to see the plan submit right yeah would you anticipate there being any actual changes on the ground when he goes through this process um I until I understand the intent of how bad they might be within the step back I don't know the answer to that okay maybe you should ask me oh hi I didn't see you there like to see what everybody said if you'd like to speak please come on up yeah I know you have a lot of questions I'm the owner that she's referring to gotcha and uh yes uh from all the changes in my business we have a lot of time money constraints so we want to do one thing at a time and that uh the sewer and water is very important for me to change it's been sitting out there got to change it got look up to it that costs a lot of money and all of a sudden I get nailed with this $6,500 $10,000 for the site plan and I made a very small change to my lot very small only because there was trees that were falling down dying it fell down back this last I think it was a storm last week right there was a storm last week and they would have fell down right on a very expensive car you're talking to Pines right out front y that's okay you can call me Dean Dean Dean very aware of what we have going on over there and uh the pine trees just had to be cut down so it's sitting there with Mucky old water and dirty old dirt and so we just smooth it out put some uh fabric down like you would any other normal driveway or that I have in it right now and aggate down you can't even tell the difference between my other driver it's a very small parking lot we have 30 parking spots I five more spots maybe six more spots do a little math on that that's less than 5% change do we need do we make a motion in this situation no I just wanted to understand what a reasonable timeline would be for an extent do you have a timeline that you think well we're going our plan is no no that's a good question sorry go ahead can you repeat that add the bus okay so we were thinking we do it then I don't think that's unreasonable and when is that up we plan within about a year we plan on trying to build on this first so a year is that what I heard that be suitable I would be okay with that so just real quick on a comparison about the automotive repair shop across the street went through all of this to add on and everything and that was everything was in compliance correct where there issues with yes so they were adding to the building and that's why I think he's saying that they're looking to add to the building as well and so he's hoping he can just do it all at once if I'm understanding correctly and we could have a contract drawn up where the one year deadline is memorialized um if that's agreeable to council he was no I understand I just the trees came down what he should have done was clean them up put in dirt and planted in grass and we wouldn't be having this conversation correct uh there there might need to be a cup Amendment for business operations because it sounds like some of that's changed too but again that might be better handled as part of the building um if they're in in bays at all um it might be better to handle it all at once is the problem that there's parking there now and there wasn't parking it's a parking it's it's essenti it's a parking lot the expansion the parking lot was expanded okay oh just by happen stance the trees came functionally though too oh okay the trees were at the edge of the mount system I'm assuming that your mound out front and stuff trees came down okay and let's throw down gravel because at some point we're going to expand and somebody brought up the subject and so be it so we not going to dirt in there and grass we have we got have an access to the m which is right there and the's got to be removed so our plan is to probably turn turn that and just approach to that that's why we didn't replant anything yeah a future thought if it just didn't have cars on it would that be a code violation would that eliminate the complaint I believe it don't I believe there'd still be a code violation because of the width of the driveway now um and the location of where it is so I don't um that could certainly be potentially uh understanding the meantime is that gravel area car shouldn't be on but I still believe there is a code violation yes but again is it something that we could handle in a year with a larger Remodel and have it be a cleaner process rather than putting it through it twice um yeah did when I when I look at this it it's somewhat like that entire all those industrial parks and businesses we we delayed making people hook up to sewer and water water for up to 2 years and such is this a similar situation other than the remodel that's planned also can we yeah I think we did that because we were concerned about the financial practical and that help out I'm looking at like for like would this be the same kind of thing could it be written the same way as us delaying their hookups to do is there a way that there's this stage of hooking the sewer and water and then assessments come and and and it's like her attorney mentioned and stuff could that be one part of the phase and the rest is the whole plan in a year is that what you're looking is that what we're looking for is hook up the sewer and water now or process yeah so I think that was a project he was planning on this year and that's where they are the priority has been set um so and that'll be paid for that's that he's taking care of that that's done or will be done but I think to your point you can make the argument that we've done that similarly and this is a could be seen as a comparable flexibility that we're offering to just add it as to an entire project and yeah and maybe try to do eliminate the parking from it now yeah we could maybe try to ask him to put um I don't I'd have to take a look to uh Dwight's the one that's really been doing the CT enforcement inspections I'd have to understand what could possibly be done to avoid parking in that area for now um and then with we'd have a a compliance agreement that sets the deadline of one year from today um plans need to have been received to move forward in the Cup site plan approval process and we could certainly at that point deal with the building expansion as well so that could definitely be something we work through a staff parking from the property line from the property line yeah yeah so it's the parking area is supposed to be 25 ft from the property line it's a little different than the ditch but uh again without the survey I'm going to have a hard time so I can do a rough measurement what it would be from the ditch can we just grant you flexibility in and give you some kind of concept and you guys can just figure out what he needs to do the form I think from the discussion so far if you're okay with my summary that I can we're okay that kind of game plan of it's an existing business and yep we have in the past assisted the other businesses to get to where they want to get to I mean the the again to go across the street and compare compare apples to apples might be two different things but we help them get to where they want to go with some setbacks and those kind of things yeah with Protek across the street we granted them three variances to try to work through what where they were trying to go so um we do try to we have there's been a couple examples um in within this area specifically where we've tried to provide extensions and try to work with them collaborating coll so we aren't doing something to somebody that we haven't done to others so that that's my only thank you Phil concern appreciate you coming that's help very helpful yeah we are grossly aware of this and a lot of people talk good about you so appreciate you being there thing thank you thanks for the collaboration before we exit now if you know the other guy that she was talking about tell them we aren't so bad before we exit code enforcement um because we are complaint-based I wanted to raise an issue for Council to be aware of that there are code requirements around new construction having Landscaping installed within 30 days of certificate of occupancy being issued and that is a Code Enforcement item and because of that it's a complaint-based item so I as a resident would like to complain about the Walcott Glenn development not installing sod in the homes that have been occupied since April I would also like to complain about the lack of removal of invasive species like Buckthorn and poison ivy so that that can start the process and that would be more of a development agreement ideally it would be going forward so the problem with Buckthorn is um it is challenging for code enforcement to go out there in our current capacity we have one but we can certainly try to take a look if you especially if we're able to access from your property um but the get past Hugo can be it it can just it's challenging and then my understand of Buckthorn specifically is that um it's got to come up by the roots it's got well and and even then if you don't catch it all it can come back still Reeds and then if it's a shared property line and the other side isn't removing it at the same time it can just lead it just it's a lot to manage um I can certainly have do I take a look and we can do what we can um I just want to make it clear that we have one code enforcement officer he's also our new planner so there's a lot on his plate um and I don't want to overpromise success on that but I I do understand that that's something we need to look at and figure out how we can proceed in Shak P I contracted goats for the Buckthorn I'm by me that's what my son is Goats No removal of Buckthorn it's a passion of his there might be a job for him figure some of that out yeah he if he figures it out he'll make a ton of really hard it did come up in Woodland Hills and we we did put that in the agreement which was good to see um but you're right it's going to take some sustained effort maybe even beyond the point where homes are sold to continue to control it until it's actually eliminated yeah that's why it's like I uh I want to be able to eventually close out the development I'm just worried it's eventually it's going to have to be the person who's living there's fault or their responsibility I should say fault responsibility to be removing and being compliance with our Nuance ordinance so for the buck thr goes but for the sad oh yes the sad um sod is an easy thing so um the the resolution I'm sorry the development contract tonight um the expectation is that the sad and uh top soil Assad and front yard trees need to be installed prior to certificate of occupany for that development um with the exception of really winter time and when uh there is excessive rain like we had earlier it can be very difficult to get that completed so but again they'd have to work with us to let us know specifically what Lots they're requesting flexibility from M and we would identify a reasonable timeline as to you know if it's January then you know April 1st May 1st to get this OD in um I think what and correct me I think what you're trying to avoid is like I know when I moved in I was I think about 11 months without sod yeah yeah so I think that's and then I will also add that um we want to start doing certificate of occupancy inspections that's actually been something on Michael pritchard's list of something he's wanted to start implementing so that we do have better enforcement of some of these concerns that are happening because we don't have that type of inspection quite yet so it's a little different than the building permit inspection it's tied it's similar it's tied to that certificate of occupancy but there's these items that a building inspector isn't looking for right um so it's something he would like to take on the question is what's coming off his plate um or what additional capacity are we able to do so can West Metro do that kind of inspection as well as part of their um my I I would like to talk with Mike about it there's a reason why I think that he would like it be something that he's taking on versus having Metro West to it so would maybe the development superintendent also be able to help in that aspect no they're more engineering so this would this would be this would be the landscaping and so just getting better processes in place so um it's something that's been on our radar and I think this will force the issue it was already something that we wanted to get a clear process in so it'll be a goal for us in 2025 I'll add it to our Community Development Department strategic plan so can I ask you a question kind of related sure is there a requirement that people who have Second Story sliding glass doors need to get their decks on their house can we add that to that that drives me nuts and it looks horrible like a time frame you made yeah you can't have a sliding glass door with no deck on the second story so they do have to have it for to building permit they have it is boarded off on the inside the idea is eventually they will be getting I get it it looks from the outside it looks like not we can look into it we can look into it um it's really really it doesn't look good yeah I and if you can't afford to put a deck on buy a different house or take out the patio door or do something we can look into it um I think some things too are you know it's preference and trying to regulate preference don't put don't put sliding glass door or you might limit it to things that are facing major public arterial like that you can certainly look into it great then I can file complaints against all those new houses with huh is it not me I got got big I don't drive in your neighborhood not in men's cloes I think it's particular with a pug that certainly be we digress sorry um Natalie was saying something oh no I was saying particular with the Pud I don't see why we wouldn't be able to add that in in terms of houses along major roadways would need to be constructed with a deck if they're going to have a sliding door on the second level um but that as far as adding it to standard plat I have to have to look at how we could handle that we could just look into it and bring it back at some point' be great all right sorry I completely digress totally fine appreciate you bringing it up um next on the agenda let's see here staff reports we just have the project planning update which is in the packet and I did add two really brief mayor reports um one was uh Jeremy brought this up last meeting and John's brought this up several times but now uh Mark and I attended the last met Council virtual meeting um my alarm belts are ringing like crazy um with the uh four units an acre density that they seem to be seems that they've decided on um and some of the other policy Provisions that they're talking about changing or seemingly have already decided to change for the 2050 plan um just wanted to make that public um uh Jay and I did get an email from uh Judy Johnson our met council rep for this area uh probably plan on setting up a meeting with her in the coming weeks to at least voice those concerns uh to her directly don't know it'll make a difference but uh I think more more noise any one of us or anyone that's concerned about it can make the better um because that would be a very substantial change to the entire city and how we develop and but you know that one unit in acre increase minimum would make a very big difference so huge why why they they haven't been able to articulate a very good reason to me that's part of my frustration Flex they keep saying we're not going to require you to develop more we're just going to require you to develop at a higher density to me that's developing more but no because Townes can expand except for they want to change that so that you can't change by saying more flexibil or more per acre if only towns could actually expand the area then I guess yeah then it would maybe work but yeah it's I think we would need to seriously [Music] consider what zoning changes we could make to preserve the RO character that we have yes if it does pass and that's what I want to get some clarification on is is this going to pass is there any input will this be discussed further before it is is implemented if it is implemented when would that be affected effective date by you know when would that start being enforced uh there has been some discussion on does it count towards all of your existing land so like stuff that's already been platted which would be an absolute nightmare versus all the newly platted stuff so hopefully they at least don't make it the worst case scenario um but in any of those cases there' be substantial planning work that we would need to do uh for a 2050 plan that would be significant changes because of the significant change they forced so is it possible to reduce the size of the M Set uh well Dayton's uh mayor asked that at the meeting um and they pretty much told him no um what does John say but this is what they're talking about changing the might be possible in the new comp plan now well it might be possible now but they they want to change that in the new comp plan so Natalie was on the call too yeah well and my understanding too with taking things out of the Musa um with a couple of planners who I know who have been part of public hearings where that's happened if you have willing Property Owners it might be less of a battle but property owners who have been in the Musa and have made financial decisions based on the expected value of their property that can be there can be some political will against such a decision too so um it would be a decision that have to go through a public hearing um to notify the effective property owners and uh they might be totally on board I I don't know the answer to that without going through the exercise but I think it'd be something we would want to make sure that we have a not that it shouldn't be a public hearing that they're hearing about that for the first time we'd want to probably have some workshops around that idea um and to try to have it be a collaborative effort but on a positive note the last time Judy Johnson came to town and brought some met Council reps we were able to get clarification and add a different category so just remembering that in terms of a potential collaborative spirit before we get yeah no and I I will say Judy um me Council I think we all have our frustration with Judy makes an effort to try to help when she can um I she's she definitely has a collaborative spirit and I I I appreciate her efforts on there um I worried that even if she fully agreed with us that there's still not enough to change of policy of met council with how big they are but so we have that land use advisory committee It's Made Up by representatives from the districts and uh it's Mo it's mostly elected officials and in that land use advisory and it it's sort of like districts not based on population there are like four super loud people who want to do the um add density everywhere and especially here because they don't live here MH and then but the rest of the governing body is against it so they and so they because people want local control and they don't want some uh extreme uh int intra Corridor politicians deciding what goes on in their town but um so there's a ton of push back from the official body that's supposed to give them push back gotcha except they don't care they don't have to take it yeah they don't care they've been they're nominated by the governors there's one they're going through the process well no there's one only one left from Tim peny otherwise every other one has not been interesting Tim pen party so they're all the governors are and the leaders at met Council are just wear the same strip yeah it's a it's a product of all being appointed not elected for how much power they have as a government I will tell a very brief story that I thought was pretty funny um after attending that meeting virtual meeting with Mark and not being in the best mood uh I started digging into some random met Council videos I know you were John on a Advisory board but I didn't know which one we spoke about this briefly and start watching I was I was doing some work start listening on YouTube to one of the meetings and all of a sudden I hear this guy kind of speaking up at one of the meetings and he's getting fired up and he's talking about you know how this has a really adverse impact to cities that are just developing now and just just makes this great argument I'm like that is exactly what I was trying to say and sure enough I look up there and it's John so thought that was pretty funny someone say speak at one point a clarification Mr Mayor mayor there will be a comment period too so there will be a period where I think there's going to be it'll be very clear where they'll be accepting comments and that'll be an opportunity for comments to be submitted so yeah I just wanted to bring this up and I don't know if now is the um appropriate time or not but it's come to my attention that uh more than one city council member has been uh approached by applicants requesting private meetings or breakfasts or coffees and I I you know when I looked into it I I don't see that that's prohibitive but I think that it's bad form I think the Optics are bad I think that it's unfair for council members to meet privately with one applicant and not other applicants so I I just wanted to throw it out that I know this is happening because I was contacted and I know for a fact that other council members have been contacted and I I just I just think that we should have I don't know if it requires a a formal policy I think that we should just agree not to do it because it it looks bad and it and it just doesn't smell right um John do you have any thoughts on this um thank you councilman members of council I I think that you're correct we have to be very careful in our um our conversations with applicants with open applications in particular I think that um having some consistency in those lines of communication is important and I think involving staff whenever possible is a is a valuable thing um you know in addition to kind of formalizing the process and and having the information gathered that way um there's someone else in the room that can say what happened too I mean and so I think part of your concern is Raising about uh uh suggestions of conflict or bias or anything like that uh there's somebody else that can attest to what was said uh in those meetings too so um while they're not prohibited you're correct um I think we just we you're right we should be careful when we do that at um and to the extent that the purpose of the the meeting is to talk about an open application there's a you know there's a staff path I think for that that that's probably more appropriate thank you is this specifically related to developments or just anything or well I I was contacted about a development and a developer uh and an applicant wanted to sit down with me oh okay and I I I declined um I just think that if you meet with one you got to meet with them all and if you can't meet with them all don't meet with any of them and if there's something to say put it in the packet for yeah so sometimes people will call and say like at at their house they'll I'm trying to do this and this and this um and I and I tell them sometimes I kind of feel like I'm a tour guide to City go city code for like the regular guy but what you're talking about it it's just specifically related to developments not going to some people call us and they want our help because it's so hard to navigate City stuff sometimes well you I'm sure that we all get phone calls what I'm talking about is a one-on-one conversation where a vote here puts money in someone's pocket a development and I I just think that it's um I just think that it's in inappropriate and I I I don't think we should do it I think that if uh a developer if an applicant wants to talk to us put it in the packet do your talking in the packet do it in front of everyone there shouldn't be these back backdoor conversations because like John mentioned let's say let's say I meet with an applicant and I say you know what I really like this well if it doesn't go through they can say well you know that's bias for or if I said no that's bias against you you know someone someone is not going to be happy with whatever decision you make and you know with certainty if you sit down for coffee with a developer some someone someone's going to have a recorder on that and I just think it's it's bad practice and I wouldn't want to give anyone the appearance that they're backdoor deals or you know it meeting you know I'm I'm not really for this well let me explain to you why you should vote Yes oh yeah okay that conversation should never happen okay if there's something important to say you know tell staff put it in the packet so I just wanted to throw that out because you know I just I think it's uh well I think it's tacky and I I just think that it's inappropriate and it doesn't feel right chairman I have a similar practice uh I have one exception in that if somebody is a resident I'll meet with a resident but I routinely decline to meet with developers who are not also a resident and the number that are both has been very very small um but I like the suggestion trying to do it in the presence of Staff where we can coordinate that I feel like that does add an additional layer of objectivity that can be helpful I think that practice is actually occurred in my short that's typically what I've done yeah yeah so so there there have been um multiple staff members there and and those instances I think was less about persuasion and and more um trying to make good you know good planning you know some some significant strategic impact uh that that they're like hey I don't want to misstep this so can can you and they actually met with all the council members uh with staff I'll just add one thing to is um this is just a change in policy and how we've handled it so um please forgive any applicants that might reach out to you in the meantime that might be working on advice from previously provided was to reach out to council members um because that had been the direction I had received under Brad and byy so just please keep that in mind if someone has reached out to you recently um I know of for specific one applicant group I'm thinking of um that they they're going off of staff's advice um and so if we were changing a policy I can certainly um we can certainly change that policy I have no problem with that or have it be I think right now I I usually tell them to try to set it up with no more than two council members and with Jay or myself there and if we want to move away from that as well then I can certain we can certainly stop providing that advice but I think the idea again is to try to have some collaboration a lot of times they want to offer a site visit so you can see some of the constraints that they're working with like for example Woodland Hills had that buffer yard question and it was it was a lot more better to go to the site and see what they were talking about you don't necess get all that from a plan um trying to get to a point uh in Community Development where we have a couple of drone Pilots so we can have some kind of Drone footage for sites so we don't necessarily need to do a site visit um but we that has been kind of the the goals previously it's been more about trying to just um explain their goals and try to understand some concerns that you might have that they can try to work through and address so again I'm we can totally change the policy um just keep in mind that there might be some people going off of advice that's now old so yeah I I agree with you Jay in terms of what my experience has been in terms of bring you know doing it with staff and kind of the goals of those meetings have been separate from trying to really persuade me or persuade the council member uh just to vote this because it's more been how should we tackle this trying to collaborate trying to figure out some tech you know technical aspects of a code or of their plan um um so I wouldn't want to come down overly prohibitive on that um but I do think maybe if we're concerned about it if you're going to meet trying to do it at City Hall with someone from staff is is probably a good protection if we're concerned about that work session if it's that important I think we have one we don't we don't have to accept it yeah public comment what's that they can use public comment as well yeah exactly that actually might me more efficient too yeah um so so I I I would say uh there are a couple um people who were developing that I got to listen to their pitch three or four times because because they're wanting to meet with a council member and I was insisting that a staff member be there uh and so in terms of best and highest use of everyone's time and everybody getting the same message uh that actually might be a good solution I think it's especially relevant since we've had I want to say acrimonious relationship with the builders yeah fair I don't necessarily trust them yeah and I would say for for sure no one should feel pressured to if they don't want to meet with Lake Jeremy's policy kind of has has been and that's typically when I've been asked that uh will the other council members meet with me maybe maybe no you know so it's and that's been your policy from from day one I think um and so yeah certainly no pressure to do that if you're not comfortable with it by any means I would say I went to look at the buffer that was and I think that was actually a really help to Natalie's point that that we didn't have the technology before to provide that perspective and we still don't to be clear they're not pil yet yeah that's going to take about hold on one second it could be lot of understanding what is the value in having those side meetings if they're going through planning they're getting feedback they're meeting with you all I'm saying is the risk is so much greater that probably unconscious bias might even that why not just do a policy to not have it unless they were adding significant value for you guys rather than them in those conversations yeah I agree and part of the reason why I have the policy that I do is if they can meet with everybody individually they can triangulate and pick the bare minimum to satisfy three people or four people and if they're confronting everybody at once they'll get a more balanced View and they won't be able to triangulate as much so I feel like from a strategic negotiation perspective it's better if we're together than if we're separated I I couldn't agree more if I were a developer I would watch the past six months of City Council meetings and try to figure out who's on board who likes walking trails I got to throw a walking trail into my app this guy I'm not so sure about hey councilman you know i' love you're you're great you know i' I'd really like to meet with you you know down at pegs for coffee and you know I I just want to want to get your view on a few things maybe you know you salese and when there's money at stake you know you can persuade people to change their minds on things 100% it just doesn't have value to unless it's really valuable for you guys to have extra time developer why are you doing it right exactly I I can probably say I in eight years I've met with four people it's just not a good use of my time fair enough you can call me or whatever I'm I'm one opinion out of five that you got to talk to be best you talk to the group what do you think about this I can tell you what I think but I'd rather you talk to the whole group and then I pick up my check and and pick up their and walk away but should we even be telling them what we think well I think we do need to be careful Bud yeah we got to be careful but i' trying to take all the conversations I've had with and I don't know of anybody I mean Jay came and we jumped on a couple of events those those are the ones that I was talking about and in each of those cases they were residents right so you know several of you talked with them based based upon a similar philosophy and and and admittedly that was you know as I talked with staff that was the practice uh but Natalie and I talked about that a lot lot as we were doing that I was like uh this is different than my previous experiences uh and and I agree with the potential risk uh that's been echoed by both our attorney and one of our commissioners uh when you look at your juice to squeeze ratio it might be a little off yeah I think for some of the more complicated discussions if we're okay with having more work sessions to try to address it when there's a contentious issue or something that staff is having trouble communicating with an applicant uh CU I think those are the kind of the things that have come up in the past in in the recent couple months it's been there there's they felt that maybe staff was directing them the wrong way and they were trying to get council's feedback because they wanted a different answer um and um they wanted to do that before moving forward with their application so um if if we're okay with scheduling more work sessions where that can be talked through um if needed then I think that that would be a way to do that to get in front of you I think public comment the challenge with that um is typically we're not supposed to respond back to public comment we're just supposed to note it and then you're supposed to direct staff to follow up I I absolutely do not want to have um to do a special unless it's super unique to a a special um work session work session for anyone any Builder if they're going to have they're just going to have to come we we we open it up by giving them the concept plan time with very little investment they can come and present a concept to us correct I mean that's what we've done yes but there's a particular development team most recently who we couldn't get them to do a concept plan for over a year and a half and then they still wanted to have sit down meetings because they did not like the direction that staff had provided to that point um and I believe that I believe there were sit down meetings with at least a couple different council members so yeah in that instance it wasn't until we got the sitdown meetings that we nailed down the issue and that's why we're doing the significant review of our world commercial zoning that that's that's a direct result of that do the concept plan because they refed to do the concept because they refused to take my directions so I think that's where we're hitting some hiccups they were told to come to council for over a year and and it was only when they did the the sit down with me and council members that that we finally got to the heart part of the issue which was the zoning issue um so so I guess in some ways you could say that's a success story uh of of that strategy but um it would have been easier if the if the developer had just done what they were supposed to do from the GetGo conso plan now now to in that in that same conversation and those of you who are in with we now have a road map that makes it very very clear and as they come in with their application they receive a copy of that road map in terms that that didn't exist before we had a road map but it was in words it wasn't pictograph it was a little bit difficult to interpret and so so now you know we'll find out we haven't had similar problems yet yeah kind of we've had some we have one team right now that's not getting it well yeah yeah that's we were talking and I don't know why don't know what fur I can do to but they have product concept yes so yeah so I think um I'm I'm certain when I came here that was also a change for me too um and so that was um in terms of uh having council members talk with applicants um even council members talking with staff uh there's some cities that don't allow for uh staff to communicate directly with council members um unless they're directors uh the idea being that it was a way to protect staff and council members for for different reasons I think um so that was a change too and I'm happy to change it back I've worked in both models where that's not the expectation um I just um having understanding of when because again the public forum the reason I'm concerned there is if we hit that kind of Hiccup where they're just they're not listening to me and they want to speak with counsel but they're not doing any they can come to public forum but then if the response which it should be for public forum is uh staff will follow up with you that doesn't help the situation so trying to figure out maybe how we work through that but we don't even have an answer tonight um it's it's 10:15 I don't know if it's something we're going to solve tonight but I think as far as the direction I'll provide applicants I'll make sure I'm not doing that going forward okay so and maybe let's have a follow-up conversation on it at some point I think I need to think through some of the specific but I think we had a good starting conversation on Mr May kind just leave you with one kind of parting thought on that I I think circling back to council member lman point on that too is I don't know that it has to be a complete departure from what you're doing now it's not a problem to have uh Council involved in or listening sessions or have a council member present when an applicant is meeting with staff what you don't want is kind of what Natalie is alluding to where staff gives them an answer a consistent answer run by asking by asking counsel you don't want that you want that funnel back to staff and at the end of the day well this isn't the answer well you can take could bring the Conant plan Etc right and that that's what you want um so I I as you think about it I you can decide you you could completely go the other way and say no we're not going to do it at all you could do something in between it's a dimmer right um You can you could adopt your own individual approaches to it but I think as long as everyone has the the general practice of of funneling back um uh questions about the application or or proposals related to that to staff so that they can be circulated to the council as a whole that's that's a best practice thank you that's all I thank you um anything else on that okay that was a good two minutes yeah just like you said exactly and that I still have one um report um this one will be quick so Highway 55 Coalition I went to their um August meeting it's August no septe July other way around God I'm exhaust um my baby's sick so it's been a long week um anyway went to their July meeting they set their dues for 2025 they basically had a bunch of money when the group started about 20 years ago and it's run out so now they needed to formulate how they were going to collect does going forward to keep the group growing because they are pretty close to being able to get a project funded and and done I think in the coming year or two um they sharpened their pencils a lot from the initial proposals now they have a formula that would keep us kind of in the second smallest tier uh which would be $11,000 annually um so we we have to decide that right now but that' be for 2025 we're paid through this year um what did we give this year 500 or 750 think it's 500 and that went up from 250 from 250 the year before wasn't it or has it always been 500 I think it was the same for the past couple years is it cuz I don't think they've actually officially changed their dues since they that that's the whole thing they hadn't change their du since they got that seed money and they get us uh it gives us a seat at the table um and I guess that's where the decision Point needs to be made at some point not necessarily tonight but do we want to continue with the group I think there's value in you know it's it's a weird situation where we only have that little bit of 55 but it is kind of an important one to have that seat at the table in case there's any issues to have input on it for 1,000 bucks for you know this year next year maybe a third year at most until a project likely gets done um I think there's value in that um but it's certainly a conversation we can have I just wanted to get that number out there now for budgeting purposes uh so that we can have that discussion at an upcoming meeting very good thank you yep no problem um and then with that city council is going into close session to consider an offer for Real Estate under the authority of Minnesota statute 13d 05 subdivision 3 C3 the city is permitted to close a meeting to consider offers and counter offers for the purchase or sale of real or personal property the city council is going into close session to consider an offer for Real Estate the following properties are subject of the closed meeting uh for the Ste Road improvements the properties to we discussed our p 01119 23326 p 01119 23321 P 01119 2331 00002 p 01119 23122 p 0111 92342 002 p 01119 2342 00001 for the Northeast trunk utility project the properties to be discussed are P id1 12119 23229 P 111119 2311 012 p 111119 23146 p1111 92314 3 we are in close session U Mr may can we just memorialize Al also just because of the agenda uh the city center topic has been struck as well there will be no close session on that and there will be no close session on that third item the uh City Center thank you can you unb that gav and REM there we go yeah call the meeting back to order um and I will consider a motion to approve the Ste Road easement agreements uh May if I may um I think still want to offer the summary statement though okay I apologize uh in the close session this uh city council just adjourned to close session close per to Minnesota statute 13d uh 05 subdivision 3 C3 in which the city council discussed offers or counter offers for the purchase or sale of real property staff and the City attorney were provided Direction and then the city council is uh prepared to entertain motions related to the purchase uh I'll consider a motion to approve the Ste Road easement agreements make that motion previously listed prop property is subject to any final I think he has to finish saying it before we motion uh yeah Mr see if there's any sub if you would the very end there is is reserving the opportunity for staff in the City attorney to make any final revisions as necessary if there's any typos things like that they discover for that mayor and City administrator to execute the same and for the city to fund the transaction find the acquisition has no relationship to the comprehensive plan I will make that motion second second thank you made it it wasn't finished that was finished um any discussion on that all in favor say I I now also consider a motion to approve the Northeast trunk utility easement agreements and the right of Entry agreement for the previously listed properties subject to any final revisions by staff and the City attorney and authorize the mayor and administrator to execute the same for the city to fund the transactions and for the acquisition and to find that the acquisition has no relationship to the comprehensive plan all those in favor say I I and with that I move to adjourn uh before you adjourn if I could I just have one thing that I want to bring to attention to council just a reminder that we do have work sessions scheduled in August so the August 8th work session is actually our our budget work session uh so that's an important discussion on on August 8th and then on August 22nd uh there was scheduled uh the Oswald Farm Business Park discussion uh based on previous feedback from Council so that was scheduled for August 22nd uh the rest of the council schedule remains unchanged but I just wanted to bring those to the Forefront thank you when you say was it remain schedu remain scheduled perfect okay uh and Jeremy would you like to make that motion now yes I make that motion to adjourn second all those in favor say I I right