e e e e uh 6:31 we will call the September 5th Planning Commission to order first order of business is the is call of order second order is uh second item is Pledge of Allegiance Pledge Al Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all uh rolling right in I'm going to skip roll call since everyone is present um role of the Planning Commission uh is stated on the agenda uh uh next item approval of agenda I believe we have one change is that correct John yes Mr chair if we could strike number 8 B so this is the concept plan for um 11500 Dayton Parkway uh Cy the cubes project so they um were looking for a concept plan to extend outdoor storage they had a couple of different options neither of them are feasible uh so they're they pulled their or withdrew their application for uh the concept plan all right um approval of the agenda motion to approve the agenda as amended I'll second we have a motion in a second all those in favor I motion passes uh 5 uh next item is consent agenda the only thing on the consent agenda tonight is the minutes from August 1st yeah any changes or corrections to the minutes make a motion to approve a second have a motion from Paul and a second from Darren all those in favor I uh all those opposed same sign motion passes 5 z uh next item is open form uh public comments are limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items there's anyone here for open form all right seeing none we'll move on to item seven Council updates okay so uh on the 12th we had uh uh the financial CT quarterly report there were no nothing unexpected in there we approved the Eda um document cleanup uh um cannabis moratorium pass that uh that is good I think till January uh had a request by two nonprofits to wave some of the fees Magnus and the Heritage Day Festival that was passed 5 to zero um well that was ped guess the Heritage do we had two extensions it was past three to zero traffic control Dayton Parkway the engineering to do the lights on either side of the interchange was approved we amended the fee schedule um Rogers had altered their um their uh water fees so we amended the fee SC fee schedule accordingly we approved the engineering on the water Trail environmental review and we approved the engineering for the territorial water extension that was just to get it um to the more to the West Side on Territorial and then on the 27th we got the the all and concept plan um that mainly uh talk about we mainly talked about the Champlain annexation and there wasn't anybody okay with that so it kind of died right there um our Park design contractor came in and explained what was going on with the schedule as to why why we had scheduling issues with some of the park Updates this fall we talked about commission term limits and it was um it was uh I think the only the only good argument I heard out of that or at least argument that everybody agreed with was um it could force us to pull in more candidates but I think we agreed as a body to find other ways to find good candidates um thank you yeah um okay the uh extended business permit that went through with I think there was one addition added to the iupp a limit on the bodies right in the number of kids 30 to 30 so that passed um Magnus was looking for a iup approval on their they have an event center but I think the deal was it was approved before um the emergency response plan was was incorporated the iup I don't know if they now automatically have an iup or it's just that they have a um yes they they still I don't know if they've submitted an emergency response plan at as of today okay um and then [Music] uh oh the parking lot out here um we approved the low bid for the parking lot so that should be getting paved this fall yet right yes that was it all right any questions all right moving on item 8A zoning map Amendment for 11321 Elm Creek Road good evening Mr chair members of the Planning Commission the item before you today is a rezoning application uh for uh 11321 Elm Creek Road uh the request is specific to rezoning the property from A1 agriculture District to R1 single family residential uh the purpose of the resoning was the applicants had uh submitted a a building permit for new construction uh home and uh with demolition of the existing home on site um it was found that uh with that the impervious surface maximum coverage in the A1 district is 10% uh the proposed condition uh on the site with the new home would be over 14% um and uh given the um layout of the property and the request um the table shows that the property lot Dimensions conform to minimum standards of the R1 District uh and do not currently conform to any of the lot standards uh in the A1 um staff is ultimately recommending approval for this request as it uh meets the intent of the R1 zoning District in terms of lot standards and uh with that I'd be happy to answer any questions all right any questions on this one we do have a public hearing so correct I don't have any initial questions yeah I think I already asked a question to John but just to bring it the light to other people but my question was you know is there going to be Public Water and Sewer to the site as developed considering that's generally the spirit of R1 but I'm not hung up on that but um and I guess the answer from John is that water is coming in Via an easement and this is going to be private septic correct when the applicant comes up here maybe uh they're here I'd just be curious to know if there's a plan or why we can't put sewer in when when you get a chance to come up sure yeah absolutely that uh in that information was shared with uh staff at the time of the application submitted that uh they would uh obtain an easement from the easterly property owner uh to I guess uh put a line in for the uh water um for City Water uh and they would subsequently demolish the existing septic system on site and uh rebuild a new one in the rear yard um I guess would the applicant like to come forward and great Dr great construction U address to please oh uh property or property or business where where business or home yeah 18130 Territorial Road is our okay office I live on birkshire so I'm a Dayton resident fair enough um all right uh is there anything you want to say before I mean we other people no you just brought up the the point of of the septic system there's just no city services on ELP Creek Road to get to the septic we'd have to go through we'd have to get easements from the current homeowners and and in the area and put in an E1 Force main we just got that done we did one in Champlain just recently that works real good but going through private Lots is harder than it sounds to get people to give you an easement so I think that would is going to work so this is just I don't know where the sewer is but is the sewer to the east where the water is too to those new homes I developed to the east of there the water comes forward and then it's to the east on Elm Creek Road it it ends on the lot right next door to this property sewer is behind got so your EAS went up to the property of the East is along its North or front facing boundary and if you were to get sewer I get it you'd have to request that through their back of their property got and multiple multiple homeowners not just one not just one you'd have to even come in the Nature's Crossing to get it mhm okay okay and that's where it kind of died so if I'm going off M the sewer is I'm going to call it the driveway easement that serves three I think it's three houses is that correct not quite following oh that's okay I'm thinking there's one house between like your project and where the sewer is um no there's probably three or four where the sewer is one where the water is they don't follow the same location they the same path no yeah I understand the water is water's on the front side so where we'd have to go up to the rear rear yep and through a PO a property the adjacent property through the adjacent property plus some other property owners to get to the appropriate manhole which we'd love to do yeah sounds like it's but not easy that's why you're not doing it no okay oh it's easy W getting people to agree to what you want yes exactly but we've already done a perk test the it'll take a mountain system typical to Dayton everything's good there any other questions for the applicant yes I understand it your intent is to build one single family home on it and Y keep it more or less the same nature as today pretty much going right in the same spot the old one sitting tear down rebuild looked on them two surveys you can kind of tell yeah it's a tear down rebuild y yeah just start from scratch yeah all right no other questions thank you thank you uh with that we're going to open the public hearing at 6:44 there's anyone here to discuss this project all right seeing none we'll close the public hearing Mr chair I will note that we did have one right in uh email to me a couple days ago regarding this uh application and it was to the Westerly property owner the neighbor um that they had no issues with the application and that uh they were just happy to see something happening with the existing home on site perfect perfect I guess any discussion I think from my standpoint um you know the the lot size is generally consistent with the r1s that are a couple Doors Down um you know immediately adjacent to it that's another A1 but it's much larger lot you can kind of tell that it's a bit of a hold over um so I think consistent see with with the general area fits um I think it's a good solution to just rezone it to get it within conformance you know the A1 standards have such a low impervious threshold I would assume because they assume the lot sizes are much larger and and this is just a small lot it's it's you know more similar to the R1 Lots directly to the east so I think it makes a lot of sense I don't I don't have much issue with it I'm good with it I'm good with it yeah okay all right I think the only the only question I have and I'm looking at the zoning map right now and it's not it has nothing to do with this property but the one right behind it with the pool and the culdesac m is zoned A1 as well I think that's a zoning map air it could be a zoning map ER it should be cleaned up so just something to knowe it's a good catch just something I was no I didn't zoom in far enough to see that you're referring to the property directly south of this property yeah south of this property on the cuac there so oh yeah my guess is that if that is a part of the Nature's Crossing plat that would be a zoning map error and should be corrected Church the only one on the map only one you found it it's the only one in that neighborhood that looks looks like it so you know very briefly before we make a motion to approve this I guess I just want to point out this is an example too I know we've talked talked about this before that we have a lot of little Lots zoned A1 and sometimes the A1 actually allows some stuff that probably not suited for such a small lot too that we should really be looking at some of these small lots and getting them reson because otherwise someone might come in and say I want to do this in A1 it's allowed but you know it shouldn't be zoned A1 in the first place if it's that little yeah but would we just change the zoning automatically on it or do you just wait for a request to come in on it I think you change it if you don't want something on there that is inappropriate for that area that would be allowed in A1 but wouldn't be allowed in R1 because it's such a small lot keep that thought when we do staff updates yeah where it's really driving towards the accessory structures yeah because you have a lot of flexibility in A1 with accessory and there are some examples of lots in town currently that are an acre or less that are zoned A1 that uh really limit the types of things that you can do on the property given the 10% maximum surface so uh with that being said I'll make a motion to approve the resoning from A1 to R1 on this site second we have a motion from Darren and a second from Nick all those in favor I I all those opposed motion passes 5 this will go to council September 24th 24th thank you uh next item is is new business item 9A cing right now don't don't we're an hour ahead don't let us Jinx that yeah you just just we can do it heard that I've got an hour day yeah take your time John okay okay concept plan for DCM farm so this is the address the the one structure there's few structures but the house that's on the property is 14800 113th Avenue North uh the plan commission previously uh reviewed a concept plan I'm going to say it's June yeah cuz we didn't have July meeting um so at that time there were three three different options that were presented and the commission was asked to comment on on each one of them uh the concept plan has been revised into one so the purpose tonight is to uh take a look at this and provide comments individually if there's anything that you would like to change um with the concept plan there's no formal action so no approval or denial or recommendation for approval denial um it's individual comments from the Commissioners you have one commissioner that says that you want this and another commissioner that says I absolutely don't want that and it's up for up to the developer to interpret what that means um so with this project it's 91 Acres it's 262 Lots I believe I I think in the report I've got it uh mistyped as 267 uh it's so my math is going to be off on this but it's uh 59 single family homes and somewhere around 200 some is uh town homes or detached Town Homes as well as 11 Acres of commercial retail um this is the concept plan that was submitted and then we have blown up kind of a a key here of how many lots of different product type of each size so you know for example there's 31 Villas or town homes that are 40 ft wide so that that is uh these that are here um the single family homes that are listed or shown in blue and green and it's a little difficult to see but generally they're going to be adjacent to uh the project to the north which is um braburn Trails East that's under cons that's being graded currently uh so again kind of the the takeaway with this is there's a there's a lot of detached Town Homes there's a few single family homes there's a whole lot of variety in different housing types so this is one of the things that um the council has has mentioned Desiring with a development and you can probably only do that type of uh variety when you have a large project like this for 91 Acres um for orientation this is uh Fernbrook and here's 117th uh Dean's Country Manor is in the corner here uh just to kind of reorientate again the proposal this is 113th that leads over to sundance's golf course and is proposed that 113th would be rerouted to the north to connect to 114th uh there's six single existing single family homes that uh would stay as it is um also this project and I'm jumping around quite a bit uh this project would contribute one quarter of the park um that has been planned for a number of years uh so with this project we'll have 3/4 of the park uh property let's see as far as uh staff comments and recommendations um I'm just going to go through these as bullet points uh the first bullet point is burm birming and Landscaping along Fernbrook so this is the green area this project will be a pled unit development so with a PUD it allows flexibility from the city Cod so in this case there are uh lots that will be smaller and narrower than what our R3 District would allow so R3 would be the the nearest most similar zoning District um also with the Pud there there should be or needs to be some type of a public benefit to allowing these deviations so that is something that I'm looking for uh comments from the plan commission as far as what is the in your opinions what is the public benefit of this project overall uh that justifies the deviations from the code um so other staff comments and recommendations is to have a landscape median along 114th so this the intent here is to have is to have some similarity to the median that's in Rush Creek uh Parkway um there's planned to be a roundabout at 114th uh staff is also wanting to preserve enough land for roundabout on the 117th whether it's a roundabout or um something else that's to be decided but this would be the time to at least gain the SP the uh the extra RightWay that is needed uh let's see uh for alignment of intersections uh you know generally speaking uh the inter the street that's coming out of Sundance believe this Sundance Woods versus Sundance greens Sundance Sundance greens uh should intersect uh with the new Street that's going to DCM Farms um as well as uh spacing guidelines between intersections is 660 Square 660 linear feet uh whereas this intersection would be too close to that so staff is uh recommending that this intersection be closed off or moved West and then this to be a a Contin continuous Street here um other suggestions is uh yeah I should back up a little bit so what one of the discussions that came out of the um the previous concept plan was the ability of having an Alleyway that would back up against the six homes and the alleyway would allow these homeowners the ability or the option of moving their driveway off of fern Brook on the alleyway uh the thought with that is Fernbrook is going to get busier over time and less more difficult to back out on so um uh with the concept plan right now is proposed to be a trail so generally speaking our trails are 10 ft wide um an Alleyway is 12 ft paved and 16 ft a RightWay so it's not much different than a trail uh what else do we have here um staff is suggesting that the retail that's along 114th be more pedestrian oriented versus Auto oriented so trying to make it I'm going call say more small townish and less Suburban is or car oriented Suburban dis um as well as creating some type of referring to this as iconic signage or uh public sculpture something that that refers to being that this project is D DCM Farms that it refers to uh the rural the the agricultural Heritage that is the site um and continuing on that is having a residential design standards as well as commercial design standards that draw on the uh some type of agricultural character um with in the packet there were a couple of elevation drawings of and I believe these were the more the 40ft town homes um that refer it's hard to see on here um but I think the intent is that it looks more um like a smaller town Farmhouse versus a the typical larger uh Suburban home so with these These are backloaded homes or backloaded garages and so you have the house that faces the street in the garage that faces an the alleyway so that is I try to keep this to like a one minute summary and I'm pretty sure I'm over my one minute uh but the applicant is here as well as uh some of the neighboring or one of the neighboring residents so uh with the concept plan the original concept plan that was a public hearing ing so it would be up to the chair if you'd like to allow additional public comments any questions for staff I guess I have one John on the um the movement of the the roadway the concern obviously your concern this staff's concern was the spacing off of Fernbrook yeah for the 660 yeah so with this roadway here is is that concern still there if there's a Boulevard that does not allow people to take a left left turn Lan yeah it's a right in right out um it's less so I I would say then it's more of a question of is there a need for stacking or what's is there slowdown does a rightand turn movement on you know from 114th to here slow the traffic that's turning right and I I could answer that but um I'm have to think that it'd be okay and then the other comment I have and just making sure we we address it the everything in red up there is not part of this project that's that's a separate project up here yes correct so yes this is that's locked in this is locked in just for clarity of of making comments on on things so you know as far as the project area too is the area to the directly west of Dean's Country Manor part of this I know or is that part of the old original plat and they're going to mend it if this goes through or you know or so that that is part of Sundance so it's not part of this I I would have to imagine depending on what you do with commercial you may end up changing lot lines exactly that would be the plan if the road was vacated oh Tom yeah why don't you come up and might be a better question yeah I guess along those lines Tom is what was originally planned there too um and Tom if you could take so Tom Dean 11261 from Brooklyn Dayton um so initially the reason we haven't when we went through on Sunday screens in our first you know the preliminary plat approval it was asked to leave that open for a potential commercial area that's why we don't have any Town Homes there so okay so that was the um uh I think it was probably the council's guidance back in 200 probably 18 it started 19 so okay CU I know there was discussions um way back you know about having a firm BR 113th you know intersection Improvement and and talking to the count it was you know that they wanted to locate it up to 114th so it's just kind of what would really happen in that area so um and just to make sure John has it too is the 11.2 Acres of commercial includes the stuff then behinds Dean country man it does include that I think we have 10 acres new 10 or even maybe eight and a half maybe it's only even eight eight and a half to nine and there's you know say two 2 and a half that is um was already currently in that Sundance greens so as you look we had too many Sund dances there it gets confusing so that's why we changed it we first had it named something else Sund since I got and I guess um you know really from my you know changing the roads if you know I can see the the point I don't know if we thought about it so I I really I don't have any issues with you know reconfiguring the road I do know if we took the Westerly Road there's a large burum and maybe it' make sense to move that adjust that road uh being down in sundance's Greens over a little bit to the east you know and I up um maybe not I don't know so yeah the burm on the south side of 113 yeah yeah although it's not directly a road or intersection John it's my recommendation too that the main entrance to the commercial line up with that road going north okay so right now they're staggered because that main entrance to the commercials is going to be like a four-way intersection that's why they gets better if it lines up at the road especially if we have to have put some turning Lanes in okay and I think you know probably just to share on the the whole thought of the concept first I just talked to the commercial is you know it's it's pretty basic now it's just seeing if that area you know um I think at at the first concept meetings you know maybe here and the council there was some discussion you know some very favorable some maybe questions it you know I understand it would need a lot of you know Architectural Review design review you know so um and and I don't have anything initially planned for that yet you know try to Market or anything um you know the homes would be different we' intend to start that you know right away but I mean if it's proved we would we would obviously actively then try to to get some some business in there I know I spoke to one daycare you know would like to look at it and um and uh and I do think um it it maybe seems like there was some some question to me it just seems like a you know a gas station convenience store you know nice one that provides some other you know take uh a quick trip take uh um you know one of the uh one of the other um you know Brands I would say you know um but just something to have everybody in the neighborhood I mean I know Maple Grove some comment wasn't that far but really you're Crossing 610 you were to get to you know to a gas station um I mean I think there's as the city grows and really it's all it's had is brain tree it really hasn't you know had an improvement in a long time so but I think I would see those is two anchors and I'm I'm good I think John and I we haven't changed it John you know it's had uh some you know I don't know just opinion and discuss about you know trying to keep along the road maybe no parking and all the parking's in the back you know look it make it look more Street front and and to be honest credit to him he put maybe more thought into it I I wouldn't I wouldn't disagree right to make it look good and keep all the parking behind I think the opposite yeah when I drive my example is when you drive down Zay off a 610 yeah when you first go north all you're looking at is the back doors of retail buildings because all the front doors then have to face the other way yeah and that's I guess that'd be my suggestion with the commercial is that you line the buildings more along the west and south and have a centralized parking area not buildings right in the middle Y and then you have an Rea reciprocal easement agreement with shared Park and maintenance for the parking lot um I I still think Tom from my opinion is that because I did your the math on your square footage and I get it it's probably going to change because it looks like it's underp parked um but there's 880,000 square feet of commercial seems like a lot my concern is that if we go down a path of approving a plat is that someday you're going to have to come back and now we can't figure out how efficiently to use the land if we just approve too much off the g yep and I would say conceptually you know if hey just say it's commercial I'll be honest the engineer just threw some buildings there if if it thinks like hey that area would be you know that's really a discussion makes sense for commercial then then I think at least building wise parking you're exactly right we didn't figure parking you know estimated a pond size you know you may find out that half of those those buildings can go you know um so uh I I look and and and agree with you there um I do think if we did however you guys want to do parking in the front rear I do think that along the parkway can't be back doors right it needs to be need to be that's the challeng when most commercial users don't want two front doors so you got to pick pick how you want yep so I'd rather I guess I'd rather see a landscape Boulevard yeah that kind of shields a little bit of the parking and but then when you drive in you see where all your users are you park you have one front door and but but I think if I G from high level concept if that makes sense I could I can definitely fine-tune that the other suggestion with the commercial is the site right behind Dean's Country Manor to the West yeah even when you look at the surrounding uses I'm not saying it's necessarily A feasible use today but it seems like a great multif family site like a three-story building kind of so it's not too tall um but that's where you could put a little density is right there and then that would cut and it's all walkable to whatever commercial does go in there yeah I even wondered is there anywhere I just don't think the area is urban enough where you had some shops down and and living space above you know but I think I agree with you I I just don't know I mean so I mean there was uh like I said initially even more of the apartment side I had nobody interest but every you know I just think there was a lot of neighborhood opposition to it so but I I agree with you and and that density right there in Li of commercial would be good um I I I agree with that 100% I'd like to maybe see some more single family lots then with that with that gift of density there so maybe some more 65s or a couple more 75s and and I think where we went on um and kind of going back just to the thought process so you know we I we had the 65 option right and and I'm I'm not going to disagree that you know a bunch of town homes are once you put a lot of them together are attractive and and so I think that's where we looked at alley loading uh the piece you know say um up off you know just south of 117th would get some good good streetscape and and that came up at one of the council meetings um I forgot which council member brought up spot so I really wasn't thinking that and and so I do look a little bit of of I get the larger lots and another option could be to do it all in 65s but it seems like there's been a at least not even maybe you know not me was just asking for some more density on this side and I thought it gave a different product and then if you were to look at um the the brave earn piece right I'm kind of looking absorption and trying to not have another product that just told totally competes with it I'm not saying it won't Phill but it's it's definitely uh open for discussion I I do think just um I hadn't seen the street you know curving over where we'd eliminate the one I I would I would say instead of that culdesac and if that street comes through then just looking at initially those are all 65s coming through not split you're talking about just we on the same page that so right right here so this this piece here yeah this road would take 65 and bring them all right to here yeah if you were to do that I would agree 100% that those need to be all 65t lots to the north that's the it's all the same on the street if it's the only way in you can't have density yeah and uh and like I think I don't know if necessarily last time here I mentioned but you know like if you go just south of of Rush Creek Parkway there's uh all those single family homes and south are only on 50t wide lot it was when we went through on the initial sundan screens to keep the uh Woods up in the southwest corner you know I just said you know is there an option we could go through and cut all the trees down or if we left that could I get you I didn't get all the density back but I got you know a portion of it back by going to smaller lots and and so all I would just share is everybody to look I think I think they're decent looking lots and offer some variety but you know you guys may not disagree you may disagree excuse me I think the Villa lot's kind of right in the middle it's just the heart of the development those I don't I almost feel like that should be more along the busier roads I know you do have that directly on the north side of of 113th but it it feels like like smashing those Villa Lots right into the middle um those could be some prime 65 lots and I know you don't want to compete with the other ones but look at how many 65t lots are selling out there I mean between Sundance woods and Brer trails and um the map py and Maple Grove has got them my well especially the thing is is is I think even if you went to the narrow Lots the one thing nice about this from the association does and having just insurance and those common buildings I mean uh a resident can buy a $50 $60,000 house you know more value in house and by the time your your Association do their last really have about the same same house you know same payment um it's kind of a little bit of long mix line it but one thing that went through my head Tom so maybe you can just explain if there was some logic but why the 65 foot Lots sandwiched between all the Villas directly behind the existing single family homes mhm is there a thought process there like maybe you're trying to lessen the impact on the single family hom as we had as we had discussions with neighborhood you know I think yes you know they were looking for Less density behind them you know so um I guess I'd be looking for a little feedback from the engineers in the room but uh I guess I'm struggling with the thought I'm struggling with the alley cuz I just don't think it's that functional like I get it it might be a kind of a solution but it's not a very functional solution Aly get adjacent to the home yeah I get the reason for it I just don't know how functional that really is going to be even if even so say they could renovate the homes and flip the garages which a lot of them said they couldn't yeah right is that even functional I guess that's my question I I think that's more of an architecture question um the the alley behind those houses from an engineering standpoint is going to get those accesses potentially off of Fernbrook I don't know if the county can demand those accesses come off Fernbrook so so in my mind I feel like the Alley's going to go in but everybody's going to keep using their driveway off and I think this is I don't think the county canand it and I think so as we've met we can discuss we're not really talking putting the alley in currently it's you know maybe the roundabout in there right now you know that's going to slope at a roundout nobody's passing their house at 65 but there was a a wish for sewer um and and at the time we just talk and said I just need to give you a stub right cuz you never know what's going to going to happen I know most of those lots are small and on their second site there's some drainage issues so we have to address with storm Sewer back there but I think as they went from the first meeting in that time most of the homeowners would like the ability to hook up so the thought is sewer hooked up to them water currently um but the alley is there as an option right I need to leave an easan um and and and most of the alley would go onto their existing properties you know if they decide to build it everybody's garage I did look everybody's garage is on the north side of the house and there has no home behind it so you could put it you know you got to take and change a garage or so you know and I'm going to ask Le I don't want to misspeak for everybody I think if the traffic slows down everybody's going to leave their driveway as this you know it's just an add any expense but but at least off of the Parkway I'm giving an an easement today before it gets developed so all of a sudden let's say 10 years they want to do it and now it's a whole HOA vote and it's it's just a lot more difficulty and so the alley wouldn't get constructed no it's an it's an EAS reserving with a trail in in today's but the trail the trail does run behind and and and the lots that we have so they don't so all the homeowners don't have to go out on Fernbrook they can walk in their backyard get the trail and and stay off the busy road the I I was going to say the the two things I like about this and I I with the the alleyway is if if the homes ever do I mean we just had one come in earlier tonight of a tear down and rebuild that's something where we would probably want to look at this and and consider it and now we're giving that person an option but what if it's the middle house it that's and that's where I was going is if the other thing this allows is that's we're looking you you guys were just talking about the density down on the behind Deans and this that parcel right there on firm Brook is almost the same size as those two red parcels and this allows for maybe some some future multi- family density right there with an access point that's not on firm Brook yeah you going to have right in right out right there at that and um and I think the reason we didn't you know there was a discussion well do you put the street through right well then you know everybody's going to go on it traffic right and they just could keep it where it's just their homes if anything it's minimized traffic right I'm going to walk up here Tom so I think it's easier to demonstrate but the one thing I was thinking about this afternoon I was looking at it but if here's the commercial access and let's just say that's meeting the 6 60 ft so you got to move the road over here anyway is if this road kind of looped around and then came back up you can put uh you don't have to build the road but put an EAS can access the alley in the middle and obviously with a road like this this becomes more of a town home development to work with the abnormal shapes now um but then you still have a good road getting up into what you put up here you know personally um I think that that does make some sense to it um and what what happened too is what Peter said is let's just say 10 years from now multif family developments going through the roof and some developer approaches all these homeowners that are just done and want to be done with Fernbrook it's what's going to maximize the value of their land what's going to maximize the value of their property is a combination of land and home but if you have a road stubbed in the middle now that could become multif family someday if someone wanted to do that and they wanted to sell you could drop a manhole sanitary manhole right there in the middle of it too and those folks would have the ability to to hook up we haven't even talked about when h let's just say henan County expands Fernbrook these people might get taken out on top of it and I like the idea of alley as a savior but that can also be used against them and I want to think about the property owners like if you go through eminent domain they they'll use that against them oh you still got access you got an alley it's like well no and it really is only going to be as we talked about it through the Parkway and that that open place then it needs the person to the far south to agree right to go through um I would actually probably could you take right in and right out the only thing I I hate to have is a if I take a 50 foot area in between those Lots now I'm losing a lot you lost a lot yeah I'm not a fan of the right in right out because of the density in the northeast corner of the development like I want I want that traffic in those homes I'm just talking for the existing homes down the road oh the alley yeah I I mean I look at it and coming back and and and maybe even coming back to commercial like you said we align the road um maybe the commercial has to get realigned and everything has to go up to the intersection back in right as as you look uh at it I I think either option um is is is definitely good discussion points and I can see the positives of it um so that's why it's good to have a feedback yeah I'm not I'm not set know that street needs to go there what's have you thought at all just more out of a curiosity but phasing of this yes so one of the reasons were so you asked about mix in the Villas we have Villas down here I'm probably looking at two national builders in just versus one right so they can get a little bit of Separation in their product so um but I would say you know probably phasing of uh um everybody's pretty right now the thought is everybody fairly aggressive into uh a two year Max there's low lot inventories yep I me I think the anticipation of Interest coming down you know there's hope I guess nothing doesn't H doesn't mean it's going to happen right the houses are still expensive so un affordability but so up in the northeast corner I guess I would encourage members of the console PC that might be approving this to make sure you go try to get a chance to look at some 40ft lot developments that maybe form a better opinion uh Ramsey Town Center has a bunch of them um I W call them good or bad but it's very dense product and you don't really know what it looks like until you look at it it's it's pretty dense like when I've appraised them a couple times I've always asked my head is why didn't they just make these row Town Homes because that's all they are but there's 10 feet of basically you get more windows so maybe you have a little more flexibility with your interior designs but there's stillo just 10 ft between the buildings and I think the other is is where we're looking at a streetcape so you take a town right four or six units it's all the same color right now you got every house with a different house a little different you know you have four of those that really are running the same front face architecture and now you can split it up a little more I mean still they're going to be similar I think that was our thought is hey does it make sense to have some some variety versus but it's it's yeah it's not as as um say effective as a town home for for density and even from a cost standpoint those are more expensive than Town Homes because you have more material but and you're getting the same square footage I think if you are going to do it though this would be the spot yeah if you were going to do it I have seen the 40 foots they similar thought to you it's like wow I I'm not overly impressed but there's some in ramsy right I know that their architecture isn't very good no they're front loaded not alley loaded I I would tell you on this and the plans that you saw we could get a little larger uh Mi is the one that's interested in that and you know they're they're willing so this whole project one of the things we will will do is go forid at LP just not front um and on the whole on the whole project Town Homes Villas whatever all everything we're looking at everything we're looking at I think from i i would support that a lot uh Sundance Woods has that and the look and feel of the development is Far and Away with when you have the foresight at LP than having three sides of vyl something to knowe for PUD John if it's going to be all a which does that do to the price it's going to add probably about uh so like the villa homes it is going to add probably $133,000 to it it is spending but if you I think if I think you get all that resale back I I think I think it's the resale I think you get down the road right so if you use um like the diamond coat it's a 30y year I mean that paint lasts longer than vinyl but even if you have to paint it right it's e it's got a nicer row on the wall right you can see any of the vinyls they they're just going to move right that's that's a that's a part of it and so um you'll notice in a lot of the projects that you know I've done from Nature's Crossing to you know over here you know I just I think it adds a lot I I really like the look of it one of the things just one of the problems I've had with it just because we've been there 10 years now or almost um they didn't paint all the cuts like they're supposed to and so you get mold growing in them and stuff so just when you're working with the builder make sure they're aware of issues of subcontractors and the other payback too on the cost is usually the HOA insurance is cheaper and your over all replacement reserves go down because it last longer hail most of the time right the hail they're way they're you know as much more durable you might just need to repaint what's that sometimes you just need to repaint it really gooded with the right way cheaper than re wrapping the house so but I mean I'll look and I don't want to pick anybody if you go down 117th right some of the houses got LP in the front and the back and the sides are vinyl and I'm like at that rate why aren't you taking all four sides you know yeah so there was a major point of decision for us when we built in Sun an Woods that we picked that development because it was LP all around yep I'm going to lie when I'm working trying to see the interest that's a you know I know you do need to have it the look and feel of the neighborhood is drastically different than having vinyl well and and I'll right we when we were looking we were looking at a neighborhood and corkin that was lar built that was only LP on the front and it does help those Nationals I think punch with some of the the more custom Builders y I think lonard does a better job blending in with a Hansen when they when they're able or forced to do LP on four sides cuz if you give them the option they will just do it on the front mhm yeah so my only other feedback on the residential side Tom is Nick kind of mentioned this too but um so the Northwest cor excuse me the southwest corner of development is all 50 and 55t wide Lots I think the to uh well first of all to clarify what's immediately to the West is that 65t Lots I was wondering that too now to the West is uh yes to the in the Sundance greens yeah I think here in southwest corner or NorthEast Southwest is down here right next to Sundance yep southwest corner so to be honest with you as we go through and flat I probably would ask for a a change here um oh cuz you that that hasn't got it that's all got it but if you see now we're on our 11th Edition so we're starting right now to redesign the golf course next year it'll probably take us to get our greens redesigned here sorry um and this is probably a 2026 project um but I think here as we've seen just the the golf course um just seems to have have a lot of activity and interest and some things we can can do there that we might take and loop this street around and and leave this as parking cuz some of the knights right now we're out of parking um so right adjacent to the pond I think parking right there gives you a good buffer yep and and initially you know from our preliminary plat these buildings come down we had them designed here cuz this street comes out there um but if we did this we kind of see this going as as all vill oh you would see that so we've had tremendous interest the reason we have Villas down here is so we went to Sundance 9th you know we brought Ami in they they already have that they're they're dying um to get lots going in the 11th and sold their interest is you know so they're like we already see we need a spot here and I so that kind of changes a little bit of what I was going to suggest I guess cuz if it's going to be Villas there then that's fine um I guess the one thing I'm thinking at is I know that maybe the feedback is more density and maybe the council's there today um but I know that they also we also redid the code to a to not have too many the Lots I guess is what I'm trying and I'm not saying that that's right or wrong in this circumstance but I just want you to be conscious of that of thinking of where could be places that you take out the lots and I agree with what Nick said around that pond and I was also thinking that southwest corner but if you're bigger plan is Villas there too it does seem like I'm a fan of villa lots for having some variety in town not and if they get concentrated they get concentrated I don't want too many of them but I mean I think if we if you know based on on the discussion you know if there was a spot that we had to put 65s in you know wanted more I would ask for that in that Center yeah that's where I think it'll be best and maybe even the the section to the left the center if you you know and then the Villa is tie into the other Villa development yeah you're talking uh you're talking this this area here correct Y and if you do look you know these Street these because of the the street the setbacks are pretty far off the the 113th that you bur them it could be some you know some nice backyards there's no doubt about that um speaking of backyard yard staff had mentioned the the rear yard setback and the versus the front yard setback um on the fresh year brain time sure so and I'm going to refer to the R3 District zoning District so the the front yard setbacks are and Hayden you're going to have correct me uh it's 20 ft for the front porch 25 for the living area and 304 the garage and so you know granted with the concept plan these are just uh blocks where the garage or porches is undetermined um but on the the concept line it suggesting a 25 ft setback front yard setback for I don't know if that'd be the porch or the house but the thought is you know that what is the intent of the front yard it's more of a buffer between the public area of the street or the sidewalk and the private area of the house um if these yards are going to be small does it make sense to have a small to begin with to have a small smaller front yard in exchange for a bigger backyard so you move the house say 5 ft forward towards the street and you get 5T more backyard I believe sundan on screens is all currently 25 in the Pud I think we need to also balance the the Mona driveway compar like I think the making sure the driveway is appropriate length is more important than the backyard for a vill lot MH for Bill that was the intent I think of that of that change driveway I don't know if 30 ft's the answer like our code says um for driveway setback but I think it's something the applicant should be aware of talking to your Builders is don't forget that that criteria because question I get it if you have a big truck right well number one they probably don't fit in the garage but you have 22 ft fitting in a 25 ft driveway right mhm but we're fine I mean with the Villas you know a lot of those um there's a lot of the people that they don't really even they just got a couple cars you know they don't need a lawn mower they don't need a snowblower any of that anymore but I sure can um yeah a visitor that might have a truck or something like that especially the ones that have sidewalk on that side of the road making making sure that you know you can park the truck there right away right uh well yeah I don't think was from the street because of the sidewalk 25 ft from the RightWay so if you have you know say 10t between the street and the edge of the RightWay you don't have a sidewalk that's 10 it's plenty now you can get a four cars in the driveway instead of two yeah well still would you but I mean I would still think on all of them from the property line you're 25 ft yeah minimum you know so you still would have that right away on top of it but I get it on the sidewalk you you lose half of it I know a few folks were saying that they think that's too much commercial I I I actually think that feels right um depending on what goes in there and what what the uses are I mean a daycare doesn't have parking at night a restaurant does daycare doesn't have parking CU most patrons clear yeah just clear Peter I'm not too much like uh like I'm more too much as I don't think the market can bear it and so he's we're going to be coming back looking at this coming up with a different plan use after he does half of it that's my concern well and and so the concept plan I mean correct me if I'm wrong but the concept plan is the 8 acres and the two other Acres would have to come through a different process and so that's my understand that seems to be right but I would look this that well I mean so in the staff report I'm referring to 11 acres that that includes you know parking streets storm water pond so he was Peter was referring to the Acres behind Dean country is that when and if that became something that would be a separate plan I do think it's worthwhile to provide feedback in the bigger picture but I mean and is that the spot you're thinking would be better for the density because at a but a pond at but Town Homes there's a nice buffer with the swarmm water Pond between the town homes the ponds are I'm I'm not disagreeing so I would say um yeah I mean initially it was just has to leave it right so it's been sitting there and uh you know that whole thing needs to get cleaned up and need to get and you know maybe when you redesign these buildings there's less than 880,000 fet of commercial I guess that's my concern and my message to you is that I'm concerned that if you plan that much square feet of commercial as that 7 years from now it's going to be half full and you're going to be like we need to do something else and then we have to figure out a different use for the land that's not going to be as efficient as we figured it out today yeah um I'll look I'll spend some some better time right but and if I'm if I'm right I'm here and maybe no not totally commercial but just kind of re get a little more detail of what we're presenting yeah I you know you think of the noble Parkway off of Zan 2 as an example you've got the gas gas station and the Strip Center yeah and then and you think about how long and that strip center struggles it really does and then you look at where CVS is they struggled to fill that up forever with all the rof tops that's what I'm trying to tell you is that if you can find the commercial user I guess I'm more concerned about the speculative platting and how that impacts us trying to make an efficient use of the land if you could find that user I would change I could change my opinion really quick if you had a user and said this is what we're doing we're taken it it makes sense yeah well and that's kind of where I was getting Darren was the more land we have available for it we may get not necessarily an anchor store or an anch but someone that's coming in they're going to drive others to want to i' be shocked it it's all about traffic it's all about traffic and and and I I would be open to you know if we left that sit to see if the other piece is filled and and then if it didn't we come back you know or we just don't worry about it put a small piece where it leaves just a couple of items and and we go residential there yeah I think what helps us cuz you're going to ask us to rezone it put a PUD on it make sure it's commercials got allowed there right what helps us is understanding well if commercial didn't fit what's your other plan and how is that going to fit to convince us that it's an efficient use of the land versus us just reacting and throwing something together that you know so I think maybe I'll work on some type of residential you know yeah be Town Homes could be yeah and just say this is what we do in case it did yeah that would help y but along with that discussion we talked about adding some 65s because we'd have some density there you know so we really almost have to answer that question now in that I'd like to see some more 65s in there and and if that means we need some more density that's probably the yeah I mean that's really for me my number one thing is I want more 65s and a way to get it is more density and a way to get more density is lose the commercial there and go apartment or or something higher density what is the density right now well that's a good point yeah here uh well 260 and 90 so really not 90 cuz you got to take out the commercial so take out 10 if if you're looking for an accurate number we don't have one 269 7 it's 76 and had a ballpark last time so so it's a it's like three and a quter 3.4 units an acre and that yeah you you aren't even taken out a lot of little bits right so but I will tell you remember the last time all the residents were definitely not wanting density in apartments you know yeah it's a good spot for it though given the other residential use further to the West is more higher density um and that's why OB close close to we got the pond on the side close to Fernbrook you know it's going to be on the North we'll have heavy commercial if if this is how it goes it just feels like that's where it would go if anywhere that's where it would be but and and uh I do think though there is some commercial because you know realistically commercial you know if the city ever gets their Center Square I mean face it that's a that's a long time out there's a lot of houses that got to get built before that get out there y That's why I do think it can handle commercial I just think you've got too much and that's what I'm concerned about yeah I mean I think it could be service industry kind of stuff too I mean you got the daycare in there it could be a Doggy Daycare could you know you get the pank I mean it's you know I think there's a lot of different uses that could serve the community that could Thrive there yeah I mean I think for me I wasn't maybe necessarily as much as retail like some champ is it you know is it a a hair salon right got a lot of new people there um you know I don't see anything medical because you got all that in Maple BR right not even a ENT care but to me I could see a clinic a small like Dental let me say medical dental chiropr Standalone yeah not a medical clinic right Y and and so from That Daycare um you know I think uh you know some people mention a coffee shop I don't know if you got the traffic to do that you know I get it you got all the neighborhood with the daycare you might yeah right cuz you're in trip right there though well if it is yeah right Tom to help you put the square footage in perspective is the Parkplace prominade in brookin park so Zane where the Cub Food so the Cub Foods anchored strip centers y if you take out Cub Foods the Strip Center L strip center along the one side and the Strip Center across the street that's 66,000 sare ft okay and so you think about all those users you just Nam we've got the pizza joints the salons there's and just think of all the rooftops that's where I'm concerned that this is it's going to take a long a long time yeah it feels like a lot on the flip side if you're not in a hurry like you said you can let it like just not fill it and have a plan A and A Plan B plan a and here's Plan B is houses or an apartment and I appreciate that the neighbors don't want you know that there was some concern about having high density Apartments but we need them I mean that's just the reality and it does feel like that is responding to their concern about having them like they still there but not necessarily in not in your backyard so to speak there is a buffer and all those kind of things so I do think it's necessary and that would be a good alternative I'm a fan of town homes cuz I'm the extremes we lived in a town home for 16 years where I only had one side that had windows and now I live on 18 acres and I don't and so I have no like I either want all or nothing I don't like that middle ground going to be packed in no not at all if I'm going to be packed in pack me in I don't want to do yard work like if I'm if I'm not going to have privacy in a yard then don't don't waste my time having to maintain this tiny little strip that doesn't actually give me anything except for work to do or up my up my you know my dudes to whatever so it's like if I'm going to be packed in then just pack me in there's a lot of people right they work they go in they're not at home they doesn't sleep and leave and I got to say sometimes particularly winter man was that nice when I didn't have to worry about plowing I didn't have to worry about mowing my lawn and now I do um so like I'm I'm kind of if you're going to pack them in just pack them in um and if you want a yard then you want a yard um and maybe there are people in the middle who like a tiny bit of a yard um I do know you know if you have a dog you want to have a backyard some they can go to the bath you know so like I get that but I I am a fan of the variety I like the variety I think different people like different things um my only comment is from is not really so much for you but for staff and their recommendations on the farm themed agric uh architectural design nothing fills me with more rage than when I drive by a place that used to be a horse property and they got rid of all the horses but they keep the horse theme and it's called Hackamore Trail and they have little horses here and there I'm like no you got rid of the only thing that mattered don't keep the name so I actually that that fills me with rage so don't do that if you got rid of the farm and you got rid of the farm now you're a subdivision and I personally I mean I can look at it right I'm I was a farmer right and so and and someday face it this it's not going to be town but I do think the architecture you know is it is you know is it maybe all brick or is it you know I mean something just a lot if I want it to be pretty I'm not saying it shouldn't be pretty but the that just like I said anytime I drive by a place that used to have horses and they kept the horse theme but got rid of the only thing that mattered which was the horses it just it does make me it literally fills me with rage I get angry every time I drive through like H like that whole corkran area I mean yeah sorry heckamore Trail Pinto Drive Clydesdale drive and I'm just like you got rid of all of them don't use those names so might not get as passionate but I agree um I mean nothing worse than just faking something right I mean let it be what it is it's a new building uh it's about materials it's about the Landscaping it's about the type of fencing that you might put along Fernbrook around the holding Pond there maybe it's more of a you know the the two post kind of fence that you would see out of a cattle ranch or something right you know like that kind of thing you know it's it's those little touches that start to give a nod to it without having to like blatantly like copy everything U so that's that's what I would like to see but I like the commercial I like the idea of a a gas station quick trip kind of deal there I like the idea of a quick trip up and psome I haven't said that for a few meetings so that was due um you know Bill superat you like you know there's a lot of different options you know they're great they're more grocery we need that stuff there was some inquiry about them at first I just didn't want to say because I haven't really had a lot of talk to them there is actually another young gentleman that he's been inquiring and and he'd like to put one up himself I'm like I don't think you can compete against the big boys you know yeah but just something I mean this town needs those like quick grocery store convenience store kind of things right especially as we get more and more rooftops um you know I I'd encourage like I I love the little moments in these developments where you can see into like the the ponds you know from the street so like right right to the east of the main the main Circle there you've got that little Gap there right so you can kind there's be some landscape in there you can see the pond it shows like a little bit of relief within all these big houses right it provides Public Works a way to access it yeah there you go yeah so it's like you know if you change the the middle to 65 Lots like can you can you give a little Gap in one or two spots like it doesn't have to be much but just those little Vistas where you can kind of see what's going on back there without feeling like you're creeping on the neighbors you know trying to see between their houses or something um you know I think the bike passs are are nice through the space we haven't touched on that but you know it's I always like the connector pass like from the call the sack around the pond over to the street you know and that gets lost a little bit on the south side of the development right now but uh maybe that's okay I think it's going to come down and we go on Glacier you know down there yeah you have them all in the streets and stuff right so but it's those little backyard ones that are kind of nice too um I don't have well actually do have a path in my backyard it's cool and I don't mind people walking back there and nice have the activity so um it's kind of I'm just kind of dumping here as you going back to some of the previous conversations but you know the Villa's up on the top south or north east corner I think that is a good spot for those I like the use of the alley there to allow the success of those smaller 40ft Lots because it doesn't just put garage doors along the street all right so as you're driving down the street it's walkable you you're seeing the living rooms you're seeing the front porches hopefully people are coming out that way once in a while in the evening with their dogs and and stuff like that and their kids and you know the garages are in the back and you kind of get rid of that like feel of all garage doors um which I struggle with with a lot of these newer properties that do squeeze down the lot sizes where you look down and it's just garage doors you know um so I mean that's that's a small touch that makes it feel a little bit more Rural right and then it's all Landscaping um you know that takes it from there and these developments take 15 20 years for landscaping to really take shape and start to feel like a existing neighborhood with you know trees just crossing the other day and that place is gorgeous now yeah with all the with all the face just takes time yeah you put these tiny little trees in and yeah and I tried like putting like four and five inch in and you put a two and A2 you know what I mean after a few years that two and a half you know it just you stunt that big tree so much yeah yeah y yeah a lot of people will waste money on the bigger caliper thinking that they're going to get better success quickly but you you shocked a tree that was doing pretty good where it was and then you pulled it out of the ground so I got a question on on the parking for the the play field is that um so the park in the the park so there's a parking lot on the North side and then the South Side we have one on the south side and I guess my my only comment is this is probably lob it over to Parks Commission but on that one of the things that irks me a little bit about some of the the homes in our neighborhood and why I didn't choose those lots is you're driving right up there up that street and all the headlights shine at that house as they're making that turn mhm and so we have an advantage here to to slide it over two lots and put it right on the stub for the street yeah of the street and does that make sense with the park programming um just you know you lose you lose no less Lots it just doesn't make what would you do with it I can't move it two lots to the right and ohine with the street straight from the street got and I would I would agree with you except it has that large power line oh that that the power Line's right there okay then put the parking under the par then you can't do that so and it actually would probably even go under a little bit to the golf course piece that we have yeah I didn't I didn't but otherwise I think your idea is phenomenal right I didn't think about that I was only thinking about the the roadway traffic but that really will be right the whole trail part has to focus run along that power line for eventually to get to the Maple Grove I think the other the other thing is that that one culd AAC on the lower left corner here um I if if it's I don't know if it's possible or not but to make a connection from there out to 113 by Trail or sidewalk um I just see I see a lot of people just trying to cut through to go to Sund trying to cut through someone's yard and certainly there is Trail and connections other ways just if you give them the the option they'll take it so those those are my only that could be nice maybe coming out on the bottom left poos to the pawn and work Y where the two colors were the yellow and the pink come together there yeah I was just thinking you know if I lived if I lived at one you know one of the houses across from the culdesac it's like well going to Sundance you know that's right there yeah then you don't have to cut around the pond like someone probably would um only other one I picked up on a bit tangential but it's bothering me in the park what's going on in the southwest quadron of that Park what am I missing it's like bats and balls or something I think the design has frisbee yeah that's what I thought okay got it I was just curious and obviously that all changes as the city decides how they're going to build out the park I was just yeah curious what the thought process was there and tomm you're going to have correct me it I believe that cor Southwest quadrant is more hilly I think in trees I don't know if there's a plan possibly for sliding Hill yeah I was thinking don't think I don't think it's that tall to honestly it's pretty flat from what I remember so so the green is built up as a high KN but really get the slide up I I see that thing getting all gred flat it's all sand yeah I think generally it's hard to well it doesn't really show very well the plan is for ballpark or ball field on the Southeast Corner uh this would be more of a like a I'll call a soccer football field and tennis on the northeast and then a playground on the south no Northwest playground basketball and so on any other comments at this time I guess the one thing like the 40 45 foot line Lots I get it up in the northeast corner where I'm struggling with it is that's what's all around the pond and this air section south of the pond um and I know Nick has mentioned more 65 foot wide Lots I guess I would even be I just I guess I'm I think I'm against the 40 45t Lots around the pond I'd rather see 50 55 foot lots more Villas than than the twostory houses where you're basically staring at garage doors are you referring to the middle Pond or the North Pond the big pond one more down the one down y so all around that's 40 to 45t Lots as well as the south of that road if you go south of the road the sou side makes sense I think a little bit adjacent to 113th but yes I I think that middle block needs to get relooked usually you probably want leave the salite just 40 45 because of you're kind of detaching them from the like kind people directly across the street from them yeah for the HOA but I guess i' I guess I'd just like to rethink that cuz uh I don't know I I guess I'd be more comfortable with you know 50 55 foot my Lots there than 40 45 so you have more of the traditional Villa looking home with a little more space between them I don't know if others share that opinion that want to yeah I could see like you said you want them to be similar product along whatever that street is one block directly north of 113th but then on the left side of that pond and the north side and the Northeast side of that pond maybe that's where you've got a diff a product change because directly north of there you've got 65 foot Lots correct so right there you've got 65 across the street from 40s right so I I definitely think those can change and if you need me to point I can you know I'm wondering just look in here you guys if we took if this street did come here we took this and this and made these 65s tied here cuz you're getting into this neighborhood and then I don't know what we do here I get it with the big pond even if they were traditional Villas like at 50 55 foot I think you get a better product that maximizes the pond and the look of the neighborhood then when the twoth St got it y I think generally though you're understanding are yeah General thoughts on it and I would think about is there's some way you can actually tie a road in to those single family homes like that's how that exting yeah the existing single homes not necessarily like I get it we're going to like just running an alley parallel to it isn't going to set that up for someday if the county comes in buys them all out we're going to have a chunk of land that we can't develop so this is kind of a l staff idea was if if this intersection goes away and this road came over to the east Mo up against the existing homes yeah I don't think well I don't know if you they want the home thinkg a lot of of hes you know and I think I don't think I mean just we've had enough discussions I don't think they all want a bunch of traffic in the back of their house um I already have plenty of traffic in front yeah so um but could we take it up there and maybe with that you know it turn somewhere figure out to make it work you know yeah I mean I mean I hate to sacrifice a lot on you I get it butan I think it's that important to the City to understand how someday that land is going to be functional well and I'm wondering if it's maybe not in the middle and as the road curves up I just kind of got to do a layup but maybe it's at that curve down a little bit lower but it's off the Parkway right you just need access to it because if it happens it's all right all going to happen y my last thought process here the round about at 113th um that's going to require some County participation and and I just put it in there so last time when we were up on Rush Creek Parkway literally the county gave us like four race we're going to go no we're not going to do this move it but it just seemed like roundabouts are more popular so I just threw it in there thinking they're going to ask us to do it but obviously that's a county that's a county decision you know I mean if if think that'd be really well I guess the one downside of the existing residences it slows traffic down in front of their house but you also hear revving engines way more when they come through out of the roundabout some people 117th and now you've got two spots with a small distance between them where you're not going to get as much speeding so that you can you know can ask Lee right it is right you take that 7 in the morning and 5 you know it's hard hard getting out you I think this will everybody be favor right yeah your been pretty decent but it's you know I told you I've got minutes to get out of my driveway let's let's make this formal Let's uh let's do that 756 let's open the public hearing thanks Tom what's that I think so I'm probably done so okay I got nothing bad to see we've had a lot of yeah all of your neighbors got notif right so this is not a public hearing nobody got notified so the the public hearing was held with the oh that's right so we're reopening the public hearing oh did we have to do that to take their don't if we want to have St we need to yeah whatever you guys are going to do got it that's where you confus me I was like he's only so so go ahead and name and address and comments yeah Lee holist uh live at 11471 F Brook Lane and I have the Northern most lot R six um I want to start first off one thing that that we're not real wild raw I mean from I talked to Keith Grover last night and he wants to emphasize how much he does not want a gas station with 24-hour lighting right across the street from his house when to Nick's Point earlier um I grew up in North Minneapolis when we had 11 apartment buildings together which was the original proposal we called that the projects and it was not where you wanted your kids to be uh highdensity housing it especially going to make it low cost isn't always a good deal I mean I'm I'm from mixed housing and I believe really we should have that but you cram a whole bunch of people together you're looking for problems um my issue I two years ago when they were talking about developing lead property I came up here and I spoke because the developer was saying he was having drainage problems and I asked then what was going to be done about drainage excuse me my throat's getting dried out he since he started working I'm pumping water I pumped water all last summer all all winter I'm pumping water right now and it's consistently been about every 6 minutes this isn't surface water or anything else they've done something um and I think the city has an obligation to do something about it uh you approved it you you guys should have researched it um apparently you did and I got water anyway and no right now you if you drive down Fernbrook nobody can cut their grass in the ditches because of standing water if you're not going to take care of the ditch at least come out and take care of the mosquito problems um I don't know that's most of what I want to see I mean I don't like the idea of a road going behind my house and and I can tell you the other neighbors are not either um how about the alley the Alley's kind kind of tolerable I really thought we had a good Tom had a good idea and we worked it out and just hiking access is is really all I need but a potential of a future alley right not actually but when you say a post a road you mean like a street not a alley well I think Darren proposed running a road through one of those houses with that did I get that running the road in a curve so as I get towards your house yeah imine and I'm not I'm not it's nothing against anybody here I'm more thinking about even you know someday these things are going to be all changing so I'm more thinking bigger picture long term I'm not trying to hurt screw anyone over but obviously sometimes decisions do well um so I was more thinking of it curving that way it came up that way and you could have a town home development on each side of it that way you could have access to where all those single family homes are if that use were to ever change and and all I see out of that is I'm just going to have a lot more traffic in my backyard um so my personal feeling from what I what I heard you say isn't isn't very positive um I I don't know what else like I say I thought we had a good plan Tom you know we moved the apartment buildings off of Thea and and it's workable it's I I have no upside to this for me it's just going to cost me a buttload of money to hook the sewer and water it's not going to add that kind of value to my house uh but I've been told I'll be taxed for it next year right is that what you said uh taxes are going up I think you said it taxes are usually typically go up yeah yeah not hopefully not another 30% hit yeah um I I will say so um all the homeowners um we've gotten together twice between the meetings and met um John and Zach are involved too and I mean I think I think we've had really good discussions very postive um and so so from that standpoint um and Lee he has peptic that working and his newer system there are a few others so he's been good with the neighbors to say I get it right if you're going to hook up probably now is the time to do it can I just say I'm very grateful that you took the time to meet with the neighbors and work that out instead of just saying because sometimes I feel like the developers don't care about the neighbors who are there at all and are just like whatever it's not our problem and I I I think that's really awesome and thank you for doing that yeah you're welcome and I mean right I've been known a lot of them right been there they you know the powers their kids were you know I guess he's a little younger worked for me for a while but yeah they've been there forever right and I I see it and uh and I see the drainage just from it's been a lot of years in the farm but way back right it's um right nobody thought about drainage back in the 60s building a house right here here's a spot dig a hole and build it so well and my issue now is like I say since they started development of the BRB bur and the Le properties up there I I consistently have water and I have water every six minutes I'm pumping and I I think you guys need to fix it the city engineer is not here today John but has this been on the agenda to understand and like the city is aware of this this we're aware yeah I mean we've heard it several times okay but if you don't just a squeaky wheel Theory here yep I just wanted to confirm that they were aware okay and then the other thing I guess I I got to say I'm not real wild about the idea the construction hours um I can hear him working on the other side of the Hill from my backyard I don't want to hear him six or seven days a week out there working 75 ft from my doorstep for and since we don't know how long this project going to take I mean I'm in my mid-70s I could die before this whole Project's done I mean which might be easier for you guys but uh you know I don't I don't think you need to be working six days a week or more out there you 5 days a week is plenty you got 5 nine hour days planned I think that should be adequate um so the city code does allow construction Monday well six days a week so not not Sundays no Sundays no holidays shorter hours on Saturday hours on only seven hours instead of nine isn't it I think it's actually 12 so that was one of the aors we probably did agree to disagree on you know but sometimes I I think like we said it's it's weather driven right but the hours days I want to use my backyard I can't because I got a D9 cat out there playing or something it's not reason how much the good thing is in the winter you'll probably be really quiet have you looked at how months long I guess Tom to that point have you looked at how much grading at all is needed out here um we we have it in the back I mean I think along to their houses is there're going to be grading otherwise yeah quite a bit um and I I think even just knowing the grading you know everything's kind of flat there's not only so much we can do to their lot is you know we're going to have to grade our backyards into you know it's going to need a storm pipe back there I don't see how else you're going to get the water moved out of their their yards without it you know so uh but I I could tell you what we're cutting I actually think you know right behind that was probably not a lot but you know right you don't go very far there's a lot that Hill is going to need to come down that's right out of his backyard so well I you know I'm looking when uh when they're building these new houses they're building five six feet of ground up underneath them because there's drainage issues out there they're not building them at the level that my house is and so my house is where all that water's going to go you put a huge apartment building parking lot next to my house and that that water where do you think that water is going to drain to um and I think the city has an obligation to plan for that and it doesn't look like it was planned for very well so far I do think one of the things we talked about those right there's a concept so then when engineering As you move forward then all the engineering everything is graded you know we haven't done that work yet cuz we don't know if it's even a good Pro well and I'm hearing it's not surface water as much as it's potentially under right I mean that to me that screams a tile line somewhere right when the when the whole Farmstead develops and all the tile line is disrupted and you've got ponding elsewhere I've seen in other projects those issues Rectify themselves because you have a you had a tile line that got disrupted and then you will create ponding that in intentionally keeps that drainage internal to the site where the tile line that's actually the opposite they want to move a bunch of water to some other part of the farm field I'm not saying that's the case here and and and I do think you know the engineers need to be aware of it and make sure that that's something that they take into consideration with it but with sounding like it being underground water it it could be a tricky issue I don't want to believe it's going to rectify itself I want to know it's going to be rectified I'm not the engineer for the project so I can't tell you that um but you understand my concern yeah absolutely you know this this project is going to make my house hard to sell if I wanted to sell it um just a whole lot of like I say there's no no positives in this house for me in this project for me and I don't I realize development happens I wish that Brad could keep corn out there as a best privacy the world and yeah and it's been a good neighbor and all that stuff but um but I realize that's not going to happen either so um and and I said that too just Tom I heard you say might need some drains in the backyard right I'm not sure that where I'm coming from I'm not sure that that's the only solution because it doesn't sound like it's all surface water all there something run out you know so I explained to them hey all the new right you're connecting a sump to a drain pipe you know instead of even just that 4in sewer pipe you know we probably need to get connections Into the Storm pipe bigger send them some stubs just little stubs they can tie into and get their gutters to it and yeah yeah even even at that the the ditch in front of our house doesn't drain um like I say if if anybody can cut their grass out there it's with a weed wheel because it's just so wet you can't walk out there y um and I and I this this has come about since the project development started on the Lee Project up here so that gives me the idea that that's where it's originated well and that's that's I part of where I think Nick's gone too is it'd be interesting you know you got the some of the elevations in here but to see what the elevations of the and depths of the ponds are and that'll really change what's going on underground yeah but I but I I want to know that something's going to be done now I've been pumping water for a long time time it's costing me pumps it's cos me electricity I can change a pump in my house in less than a minute now because I'm all set up to do it if I lose electricity I'm screwed you know I've got water in the basement quickly and i' I've said this before I said it two years ago and I just want to know what's going to be done and we just for anyone that's watching this and this confused your your house is the very North the very North one first one the water gets to yep and then when we're talking about the Lee property this is now BR Trails East yeah yes so yeah so anyway anything else i' just be ranting I think and I you know I've said what I want to say for the most part one thing I did want to clarify one of your comments was was about the apartments um you know and I think what we've been bringing up here is you know at some point there needs to be apartments in Dayton I'm not sure well from a density standpoint I think my council is going to push us there I think if if we want to preserve Royal character elsewhere and have that used to be our city model and I noticed that got taken off of the newsletters didn't it I mean it was we were talking about a River Community and all that stuff and that just kind of disappeared and and I think a couple of us had shared I me in particular I think if there's an apartment in this project that would be the spot given that the commercial is a neighbor to its North the pond is the neighbor to its South a pond the neighbor to the East and Fernbrook a neighbor to the east you're you're talking about the commercial area behind the dean country man yeah west of Dean's Country Manor right there if that were apartments right it's there's there's you don't see it there but there's a pond directly to the south I mean it's the right neighbors for it and and I just wanted to reinforce that thought from my perspective one for me it's the mix I get and and I think the Fernbrook view apart sorry yeah um the Fernbrook View Apartments are what I kind of have in mind right those are right at the corner of Fernbrook and ' 81 it's the brown uh kind of longer north to south style Apartments um has good on-site amenities it doesn't have to be what you had referenc from Minneapolis right it doesn't have to be that type of a product if the amenities are there the rents are at a certain at a certain rate what's that I don't want it to become that kind of a product down the road either because that's sure ultimately that's what happens to these things they if you get overbuilt or whatever you know for me I think that's kind of a more of an upper aelon type apartment would be the idea you know something that has you know they have on-site amenities there for a little bit of trails and uh a little bit of a sitting area and stuff like that to me that's what I would Envision in that area as far as an apartment goes yeah well it's one yeah like it's not it's not a whole neighborhood of nothing but that it is one apartment Block in with like you said the right neighbors so to speak and it's the mix I like the mix I think that's good for neighborhoods to have different size like different I think that's good for our communities in general um that when everyone when you have a wide variety of of products and types and styles and people um it makes for a better community so I also would not want to see 90 Acres of apartment buildings right that's why it's a nice small spot yes that's what I like about Tom's idea it's it's a mix if I have to live with it I'm content with that I I don't really plan on selling my house right now I've I've done everything people are supposed to do I bought my house a long time ago paid it off got it the way I wanted it and I don't want to be feel like I'm forced out of it or like some people taxed out of it you know three I think three of us in there are retired out of the six houses uh don't want to be getting squeezed any more than we are I appreciate that anything else something I you think I should add you Tom before you get out of there one last thing I forgot about um Brad's and his wife's house um when you think about the concept plan I think it'd be a benefit to the city with the Pud if you could figure out how to get access to that house not from 117 okay and I do know I think it isn't showing there but they're talking about some trunk line that between this house and the pond at that there's a really uh a trunk Line running up from Glacier all the way through that would go service like maybe some of the existing homes and everything you know to north of there um where a lot of the um the other project even Rayburn it would run south to the West there's like two major lines there that when you get down to Rush Creek Parkway flowing to the main Tru but um and and I actually been trying to look to say yeah what could you do I I think that would be fine to move if you could because that would help with the spacing cuz when when that roundabout some someday goes in that's only about 450 ft from the intersection so it' be it'd be nice if you could get get that figured out okay Tom is there any oppos opposition to removing the house and putting in more Town Town Homes well I think right now Brad's not sure if he'd like to move right you know so it's kind of the same same thing do he like neighbors it's going to be different right yeah that's good question asked well you know he's he's been farmer all life right so that that's definitely something that I think uh I can't answer for him but I know and his wife Carrie are you know kind of trying to figure out um One S part it is a really nice house right he's just totally rebuilt it all a few years ago so it's really too nice a house to tear down could you go splat it potentially yeah you know I mean cuz it's going to be a while before this gets built in his backyard maybe the the luster is worn off and he might be convinced St I mean I I Envision that's a 17 18 Acres right um you could probably fit another 10 or 15 of the 40 40 lot homes up there with a single drive this little truck is less than 17 that's just oh oh that's 1 AC 17 Acres property sorry I was reading it wrong you probably have to extend that pond and then show up some of it but yeah you could probably fit you know another 10 10 of the alley homes that are in the ccle I mean that's pretty easy to yeah I mean if the home stays I guess at home stays I was just more thinking about trying to get access to it but you know the hard part is that if you don't take it day one it's probably not taking it out in reality because like you said it's a nice home you're never going to get value as a land to justify tearing down the house if you want do a day one'll be there 50 all right anything else I'm going to close public I anything else I'd probably just be ranting all right Mr chair I would since you did open up for public comment we did get one comment question online that I can read to you if you'd like sure uh from Aaron wees apologies if I Mis uh pronounce a name 1453 62th Avenue North regarding on the coffee shop that's located along uh be that corner there right there where he's got his cursor um could there be another use for that space perhaps it can be a buffer between residential and Commercial um and then can only the east side of that Glacier Lane area uh contain the commercial uh part of the development uh and then the that was the question and then the comment from the same uh resident uh noted that uh they agreed with the commission's comment regarding um landscape median to 113th 114th similar to what you would see at Rush Creek Parkway this would all be HOA then too right all of it that's where I get a little concerned with those medians because we've got Parts in some dance wordss that are maintained different with that at 8:16 I'm going to close the the public hearing um let's just do a quick once around any more comments Nick nope Paul I'm good I'm good I'm good I have nothing more thank you thank you thank you both great stick around you're good want to talk about can no you sure even though I grew up in the coffee shop might get renamed yeah coffee and green Goods all right uh Mr chair members of the Planning Commission I wanted to uh introduce an item to you that will be an eventual ordinance amendment that we'll have to take place uh regarding zoning of adult use uh cannabis businesses that uh recently have been approved by the U Minnesota Legislature in 2023 um the state uh created 16 license classifications and those are detailed out on the next slide uh for cannabis related businesses to obtain prior to conducting operations in Minnesota um um the state did uh give local zoning authority to uh the governments uh providing them uh the opportunity to regulate the businesses uh for zoning related to time place and manner um one note that I want to make certain is that uh the state does require that all local governments provide an an area or at least somewhere in town for all of these operations to conduct business um so I did list out the license Types on this slide uh it's pretty cumbersome but uh it includes micro businesses that uh can incorporate cultivation uh retail and processing into retail items um of course the Cannabis cultivator manufacturer retailer as separate businesses as Standalone um wholesaling transporting testing facil ities uh and so on as they are listed uh the kind of the process that the state will uh go about with the office of cannabis management that has been recently created is that a business will first apply for a license through the state uh what the state does is they accept that application and review it on their side making sure that it is compliant with all the state statute uh be chapter 342 of State Statute if you get uh boor at night uh for reading purposes uh what they would do is they would reach out directly to the cities and have um the city would have 30 days to review the application and verify compliance with the zoning uh of the city uh whether that be the response would be yep they are compliant here is the things that they need to abide by per the zoning ordinance uh and then if there was a required conditional use permit of some sort or something like that that would be the information that the state would need uh to to proceed um in terms of where the city's currently at in its process uh as uh mayor fiser mentioned in August uh the city council did pass a Prohibition or a moratorium prohibiting cannabis businesses uh within the city until January 1st 2025 that was an opportunity that the state allowed so they one could get their house in order for the office of canvas management to be established have their rul making period done and have those rules established for the licensing operation um and of course in the statute the uh limitation there is that businesses can't conduct operations ex aside from cultivation um until January 1st 2025 um and can this is basically the introduction of the uh zoning ordinance side of things uh for the city to consider and um look into uh and what we would kind of be looking for from a St standpoint is any recommendations or considerations that you would have for zoning uh and then we would then take that information from both the Planning Commission and the city council and bring them back to you for public hearing likely in November um included in your packet I did uh what I what we did as a staff was create a use table in there that kind of lists out if the Cannabis aside where would these types of businesses regularly be located and how they be permitted um so that was kind of The Benchmark or kind of the jumping off point that we started with and uh beyond that is certainly up to the planning commission's uh purview for thinking of other other considerations that might be uh important to note um I've listed a couple of these things here uh one of the things that I had in there for standards applicable to all cannabis uses that uh we incorporated was making sure that these businesses were operating solely within the building space that they would have there'd be no outdoor storage or any outdoor operation or activity occurring on the site uh with that one of the questions that we had noted was um given that that is something that uh the city included or at least staff included in their original Benchmark ordinance um does the Planning Commission feel a need to further restrict these uses in certain districts uh for one example that I have in there is uh retail businesses for cannabis would be generally located in the same area and permitted the same way as liquor stores and tobacco shops um so where you would see the in the use table where retail shops would be conditional use permits that is where that is how it um I guess liquor stores and tobacco shops would be approved through the city in that case um and where it's permitted that's where those locations are permitted as well um one thing for that will be included also in the zoning ordinance would be uh buffer requirements for all these businesses uh this isn't specific to retail or anything like that this would be um inclusive of all 16 licensed businesses in uh Dayton zoning ordinance um what I have here included are the maximum allowed buffers by State Statute uh for the Benchmark the one thing that I carried over from the liquor store and tobacco shop is that the standard buffer for uh liquor license locations is that you have to be a minimum 100 feet from schools 100 or a thousand it's 100 in the city code um right the city code also references 100 feet from a church um but the state statute doesn't give uh local zoning authority to regulate buffers from religious institutions uh so these are a couple of the things that you uh would certainly consider at the for the Planning Commission um and that however you'd feel about uh increasing those or adding certain ones related to what allowed for the the by Statute the other one that uh was important uh took a lot of thought was related to home occupation for lower potency hemp manufacturers um a question for the Planning Commission and the city council would really be if they can meet the guidelines of the state statute for lower potency um manufacturing as well as the home occupation permit guidelines within the city zoning ordinance does the Planning Commission feel that it would be an acceptable home occupation um something to consider not that uh we have any really any uh initial thought or reaction to that uh and again that'd have to be indoors then though correct okay as a yeah as a home occupation to be yeah there are would not be in the backyard not a backyard moonshine right and this is specifically related to the manufacturing that's licensed through the state um as you might know that there are res private opportunities for um possessing marijuana within I think the state statute the maximum for a person to obtain have on their person is uh I think two pounds um and then I think you can have up to eight plants with four maturing at that time for private use only this is not a commercial aspect of that um so those are kind of the main U things related to the zoning ordinance that we wanted to First address uh with the Planning Commission and then the city council subsequently next Tuesday uh what we would initially be doing is taking feedback and then uh whether we can touch on this again in October or if we'd be ready in November to bring this to public hearing for initial adoption um that is up to the Planning Commission and the city council I did note down here on the bottom that there are certain areas that the statute does address as well um but staff found that those would probably be better addressed by the city code as some of them are related to the retail registration uh portion of it there are things like the city can hit if I think the threshold or the ratio that cities are allowed to work within is uh One retail store per 12 half th000 people within your municipality um meaning that since Dayton is under that threshold they still have to are required to allow at least one um so that would be the state requirement for that um and included in that are hours of operation for the retail uh it doesn't really address you know the hours of operation for other licensed businesses would be subject to the standard city code uh requirements and that um I guess uh I'll open up for questions if you have any or any initial thoughts and recommendations um one of the things that I did want to note to was that in talking with Public Safety one of the recommendations was to limit cultivation to indoor only within industrial buildings um I did send this draft ordinance off to the city attorney's office for review and their initial reaction to that was that that might be preemptive and not um Allowed by State Statute regarding limiting or prohibiting outdoor cultivation and a egg uses um so that'll be further discussed with the attorney's office to see if that would uh remain an issue and obviously all of this is going to be subject to um City attorney review and a I guess a approval or blessing um prior to Bringing to you guys for final adoption all the more reason to get the Halfacre Lots Zone day one not Zone day one right and you know I think uh one of the one of the other limitations that the City attorney mentioned was that uh given the economic outlook for outdoor cultivation in Minnesota it might not be uh an issue that we would be dealing with uh that people would probably prefer to be indoors related to security issues or whatever it may be something like that environmental probably right and I think that the the limitation really by state statute for for cultivation Outdoors is I think 2 Acres Max on a parcel and then uh under special circumstances if you can meet certain guidelines you could have up to four um so we're not talking about 40 acres of of uh cannabis cultivation out there farming so I have 18 Acres I I I can do I do you need to abstain from this no so these setback buffers are the max the state allows we can't make them bigger correct yes is it possible to pull the table up yep I was just about to do that cuz I think I think it would be good to go through each use and how we feel about where it can be used and then talk about buffers and other stuff yeah we can and then talk about buffers and other things I mean I think this ties right into what we need to look at the buffers a little bit as well I think that's pretty much our purview and I apologize I don't know off the top of my head but regarding um you know commercial and Industrial districts a budding residential there are already standard buffers that are implemented within the zoning ordinance um so you do have that to go off of as well um the the one question for clarification I have as I was reading through this and I didn't I didn't do any research on this um but the lower the lower potency and you never have the lower pocy items is that so I know liquor stores are selling this now the Delta yeah whatever is that considered the lower potency items and because Dayton the the liquor store in town is selling if they're selling it is that our one store actually the lower potency retail is exempt from that limitation there's no limitations to the amount of low potency and that's that's what I was trying to get at was is there a restriction there or or something where we might run into an issue with to clarify we we can allow more than one absolutely we have to allow a minimum of one right and then once you go once Dayton eventually exceeds that 125,000 threshold then you would be subject to requiring or at least allowing two a couple of notes on the lower potency um hemp edible retail establishments is uh I did have this note there that you are correct that there are liquor store places and there I think there are might be convenience stores in town that currently have these things for sale um there was a note that uh this could potentially be an accessory use to those so if they have they will have to go through the licensing process for the lower potency hemp uh to continue doing what they are doing um and uh if there hasn't really been an issue in the past uh this would be the opportunity to continue their operations that way where if you have a liquor license or a tobacco license already established on the property um you would be able to um have a lower potency handable retailer license um as an accessory use I don't disagree with that concept and that's inclusive of uh I think in the note too that I have for the lower potency hedal manufacturers and this might be this might have to include retail I'm not entirely sure I'd have to do a little bit more research on that but you see a lot of micro breweries or uh brew pubs that will do uh drinks that are THC infused with the low potency hemp stuff um this would provide them the opportunity to um do that I think that uh there are places like Lupin in Big Lake that currently has uh that stuff going on so if we start with this table the one question I have I guess gm5 that's the new area South Southwest aen y so I really like what staff said about essentially if you're cultivating growing it it's more of a manufacturing process versus if you're selling it it's more of a retail process and that's kind of how you separate them out I guess what I was struggling is why are we permitting cultivation in the GMU 5 what was your thought process just here versus a conditional or just outright not just permitted because we don't um I guess my thoughts are we didn't want big industrial buildings there because that's what we'd have to build to cultivate it in as a big box industrial building sure and that's where um I would I would suggest probably not allowing it there right for cultivating sure yeah and I don't uh disagree with that you know I think uh it probably could have been something within the allowable uses in the GMU 5 that uh could have reflected an industrial style u facility but the other thing that's uh good with the GMU 5 district is that uh they have there's um pretty strict performance standards that go into that District including all new developments require a planned unit development um so that uh could certainly be something an area that could be removed from the cultivation side of things I think it's appropriate to remove it from the cultivation if we're if we don't want to remove it or conditional I would remove it if we don't want a big box industrial building there because that's that's going to have to go in well and that's the other thing too is that uh it's there's almost no need for having conditional uses within the um all right because it's PUD right unless there I don't I guess uh again these zoning districts are new to me but uh I don't know if there are GMU 5 areas currently zoned within the city no um so in the event that someone would want to do that they would have to go through the Pud and resoning process regardless um but again this is this is exactly the type of discussion that staff is looking for because it's only limited to that Southwest side GMU 5 that very specific area I think striking is appropriate for cultiva sure I'd agree with you yeah the GMU 5 specifically talks about being the um gateway to the city yeah and so I don't necessarily want the gateway to the city to be like here's a giant Warehouse where we gr pot so like I don't necessar want that to be like welcome to Dayton this is what we do so I would agree with taking the the cultivation of GMU 5 um and the manufacturing why wouldn't you attack it from the standpoint of the warehouse instead of worrying about cultivation if you don't want warehouses there yeah did I miss something yeah what I I I'm kind of leaning in your spot of like if we don't want a warehouse in GMU 5 I mean if someone wants an operation no bigger than this room in GMU 5 that might not be an issue I just out there seems to me I guess I I'm more looking at it from a standpoint of why GMU 5 then and why not gm3 GMU 4 what's the logic there if we're targeting industrial here versus business here what's the logic of just GMU 5 so maybe maybe just that's one maybe the suggestion is let's let's look at does anyone know how big a what's the typical size of a cultivator building I probably no idea so so that's what d as a good point is maybe they're you know they're whatever 6,000 foot buildings sure what they're doing the state statute does um have requirements for maximum allowed a canopy area Within These cultivation things so they would have to comply with that off the top of my head I don't have that information right now um but I can certainly provide that to you and I think in regard to the mixed use districts regarding cultivation I think um really I was just going off the definitions of the mixed use being GMU 3 is historic village and uh GMU 2 is the city center um mixed Ed district and that's I guess that would be the reason why I kind of stayed away from that and focus more of where would you normally see uh an industrial type of use like that and uh certainly I think that the GMU 5 area is up for discussion of whether it really should be included in there or not so maybe just let's just flag that as discussion or I would even put potentially a c there conditional use permit because my concern is if it's a big big huge building that's my concern my if it's a 5,000 squ foot space in a building that you don't even part of a bigger building it's like I don't care but if it's a big building that that's where I was like well that might be weird I think I actually have the chapter pulled up here on can take a look and see what uh okay what is like can can cannabis delivery service I get it they're moving cannabis for why do we even have to address that why do we care do we care what the move alcohol around I guess is what I'm trying to think exactly uh well I wouldn't say that uh we necessarily would care obviously uh pizza places have delivery operations going on as an accessory use to what they do inside the building door can deliver alcohol right exactly uh the one thing that I would note is that uh there is an opportunity that uh a business would come in and say we want to establish a standalone delivery service where it's basically a fleet of vehicles that would kind of go out not generally not that this is something that would happen tomorrow or something like that but uh uh for next lier just having it included within the uh use table would be something in the event that someone went and found a piece of property and said I want to build a facility and we're going to have fleet vehicles there for delivery service deliver yeah then I would strike that from gm5 or make it a c and make it more of a i1 um B4 to my understanding at some point in time we're probably going to phase it out because that was the attest because it's a old mixture of commercial and Industrial I don't think we have any4 zoning yeah so I'm not too concerned if even I2 we don't even have any I2 on the zoning map anymore okay all right so if you're going to have a delivery service it's pretty clear that they have to be an industrial area because that's where we'd allow Fleet storage of vehicles sure um but I I think I also included in there um within at least the ordinance and I think it might be referenced on the use table as well that uh if a retail establishment can meet the guidelines of the delivery service license um that could operate as an accessory use uh and just for reference going back to the cultivation an indoor facility would be limited to 30,000 square ft of canopy space um by State Statute so that's just the canopy of the growing area not necessarily the entire building size Alone um so certainly with those types of limitations it might be uh it might be proactive of the city to leave it in the i1 area be the first use to jump on the highway visibility on the interstate I think another thing that I want to note too is this uh meso business and micro bus uh license that the state has too and that allows people to cultivate manufacture process and sell at the same location uh give him all the moving Parts in that uh area it seemed uh I guess it it made sense to have all of that area is a conditional use so we can really get a look at the floor plan and um understand what these spaces really look like in a proposal what do we do for small breweries is it similar we haven't had one yeah whatever whatever we're doing it's too restrictive I know from my understanding it's only allowed in the business park district um thought had it in one of the GMU that we you know but if it was it could be in the city the GMU I think it's in five I just read it yeah we are the last City to get an interchange we'll be the last one to get a brewery too country manner I don't drink or smoke Pat or do any you can't feed it to the horses you can't know so we'll get into everything or the chck maybe they have really good eggs oh you never the breweries are conditional use permits in the uh BP okay and then if it is allowed in the uh GMU 5 it would be reviewed by way of P it says Brewery with chap room and j five under permitted uses okay with the Cannabis retailer so it's permitted and everything uh GMU one2 2 three conditional in four but then it's not allowed in GMU 5 but yet we could allow retail strip centers there so I I think that there's going to be a any place you're going to have a retail strip center with a liquor store tobacco store I think it's fair to say that someone wants to put it there so I think it would be okay to put a CP there sure for GMU 5 and again I think I was just going off of where the liquor stores and tobacco shops were allowed rather than uh the just the straight retailer but absolutely that could be uh yep it could serve as a conditional use permit or yeah and if I understood your comments at the beginning the reason it's a c and B2 and B3 is because that's what liquor stores are a conditional use correct okay and actually I think there might be a discrepancy in one of those districts regarding uh tobacco shops might be permitted and liquor stores might be conditional uh and I think I just went with the more restrictive there to start to me it seems like those I mean correct me I'm wrong up here but the for the retailer it could be either a c across all categories or a p across all categories I don't understand why we're discriminating necessarily by the different areas unless you guys got some logic sure what do you think of the conditional use permits you're trying to predict what is the nuisance factor and how do you what conditions would control those so in this case what is the nuisance that's created by um a cannabis retailer or manufacturer or any of these 16 uses I so when you think of the new for a retailer I can't imagine it being any different than a li so it would almost mimic what those already are right mhm it would be no different you would in terms of shop or whatever and in terms of nuisances I think that one of the really common I've done some research around some cities that have already had this approved in other states and have been in operation for quite some time uh one of the things that really kind of followed along with all of the zoning ordinance was related to odor mitigation uh as that could be a nuisance of odor pollution around the area and I think one of the notes that I have in the ordinance to start was to require all cannabis licensed facilities to have an odor mitigation system um but I didn't want to get too picky on picking and choosing which odor mitigation system they could choose as long as they have one in place to at least try and deter any odor pollution coming from their facility that uh seems to help I mean that when I when I look at this and you said no more nuisance in a liquor store it's probably closer to the smoke shops do they have older well people go in and buy and light one up right away outside the door incense no and I mean I you know we were at the fair this this last weekend and you could blatantly smell everyone who was doing it you had to be 15 10 15 feet of those people every it was in I was at the fair as well you you somewh to walk by like oh nice right I wasn't smelling them from 50 feet away but it was it was still I mean if we put it in there as a under the retailers some sort of mitigation it might be you're still not allow I mean your Point's correct I mean if if they're going to go outside light up that's no different than a cigar or yeah it's it's closer to the smoke shops smell like that that are going to be yeah that nuisance in my opinion but they well correct me consumption of it in public are you a sidewalk are you not allowed to do that I I don't know I have not researched this at all yeah the state doesn't prohibit that um think so let me see here they I did have something in this so the law explicitly authorizes individuals uh to use adult use in their private residence on private property not generally accessible to the public um unless the property uh prohibits the use of the product so if you've got a say that you have a bar in town that has a smoking patio or something like that they would be the ones that would uh have to that would have to regulate that whether they would prohibit on their property or not it's not generally accessible to the public but when it is open for operation obviously it's accessible in some Factor so by state law would be allowed to be smoked in a parking lot standing next to your car private property yeah okay yeah if the if the I think that there actually is a unless there are signs up that I'm just no different how they it's no different than cigarettes you can you can tell people you can't smoke on your private property but if you don't tell them like if you had a restaurant you could say no smoking outside the door right but if you said you don't care they kind of where I'm going with you can have a restaurant and you can have those same nuisances in their parking lot y so saying just because you purchased it right here means you're going to smoke it right here I don't know that necessarily checks out yeah well where I was getting is more like the cigar shop in Maple Grove where you can actually go in and smoke mhm a cigar in there you can go purchase a cigar and smoke it in there that's that's more where I was getting is they're used on site more I do at some of the the higher and they probably can't consume it indoors if it follows the tobacco rules or can they I don't know somehow shops do I was just going to note that and again this is all this is all new to all cities in Minnesota so I'm learning just as fast as you guys are but uh driver but what I do want to note is I believe and this might be an attorney question um related to on-site consumption but I do believe that the state has what's called an endorsement for retail shops to allow on-site consumption um that I don't know if the city has code Authority or zoning Authority uh to prohibit that outright um but from my understanding and uh again this might be a question better for the City attorney um that the public places owned by the city such as parks and things like that and including RightWay areas um are up to the discretion of the city um but that really would be more of a city code Type Amendment rather than uh zoning standpoint and we did talk about that and I think the the gist of the conso was treated it like alcohol sure that was I mean I think is tobacco not alcohol so like I believe you can smoke in a park you can't can't drink it apart drink it apart if I remember correctly yeah I I guess just well then that confuses me I guess it was it's been a few months since we had that conversation because smoking isn't going to get you tuned up like I mean there's a reason why we don't allow alcohol then right and I and I guess I'm I'm still confused by that because people do well I won't get into that but um I mean to me you have the same issue as you do with alcohol um you have both issues politian because you have the smoke cuz if you're drinking that and I'm next to you having Burger the fact that you're drinking does not affect you know but if you're smoking and I'm trying to have a burger I can smell your smoke and it affects that so this is both things it impairs your judgment and it also pollutes the air around you so it has both issues so maybe maybe the the the answer here is conditional use permit more just to make it more restrictive to give us more control as we actually to deal with this the first time yeah yep Case by Bas yeah we have to adapt we I and that's yeah well that's this is our first step at it right like it can it will it will change as everyone figures out what they're doing this is going to change so I I'm fine with going starting out with more C's giving us so that we have we can know more we can have not necessarily control but just be more involved in the process and figure out where the sticking points are going to be as it develops and as people come in and then we can always come back and and adjust it and say you know what it's been a complete non-issue there's no reason for this to be this restrictive let's back it off to a p but I'd rather start with a c well keep in mind right this is one business we're talking about well that's up to the city to that's up to the city council to Det minimum one a minimum a minimum one we should I mean no different than the buffer setbacks we should after we wrap up the hand uses we should see if people have opinions on that and let it out that's what I'm getting at is it it could be a conditional use permit all across the board and we may only see one or two applicants in the next year or two and it's not initi we don't have the rooftops we need more pot smokers if they're going to have more canvis places and we retail we need retail right don't have a building um yeah you know most of my other questions here was just like when we had things like canis transporter it's like are we really need to focus on I'm again I'm just thinking of a delivery it's like I don't know why we need to focus on the zoning so to say where that building's located because once they leave once that leaves their facility you know it's like delivering alcohol or delivering something else deliver anything yeah right that's why I'm a little confused of why we have to call that side of it out sure and I think that uh to that point the reason that I did include those types of uses is related to the state requirement of having to and like like you guys have mentioned it it very well could never be the case that a delivery service wants a standalone operation in town or something like that but uh if someone did call John or myself tomorrow um they would be interested in understanding where uh they would be allowed because they do have the opportunity to be allowed in every city at in some capacity um and I think that that's included with uh the transporter the transporting is probably going to be accessory to a wholesaler or a manufacturer a cultivator or something like that the cultivate that could be likely that the cultivator the manufacturer isn't going to third party hire out a transporter to get this stuff to retail locations um they very well might do that themselves so right I'm just confused in how we're tying it to a a property in a specific location with a zoning code sure because it's going to leave their facility it's like whether it leaves with Peter taking it out the door or a delivery person sure yeah we we still need to get a I mean I think of the transporter is it like a you know I think of like a garbage transfer station or is it just like an Uber driver and we don't know that by the type yeah it's more of a business operation it could be it could be a yeah it could be a place where they load and unload redistribute it could be a distribution facility right it could be you know we're located along 94 distribution facility we've got them yep mhm yeah so in our iuem so I don't know how this factors into this but I attended a seminar for appraising marijuana cannabis places it was like three years ago from other states but the message I got from it is these people like high high security locations and they prefer little industrial buildings because they can control their security they don't want a bunch of retail traffic the people that come get it from them are going to go get it regardless they they looked up it on their phone whatever and they're going to go get it or they have a lot of them have delivery services from there that deliver the people sure and so I mean when when you think about these zoning codes that's why I like that we're allowing a lot of this stuff incl oh the retail do we allow the retail in industrial let's make see I did not include that see to me in in in industrial we do allow some R I forget the percentage Yeah it's ancillary to a warehousing operation or something like but to me that would seem appropriate it because there could very well be in a small industrial building and it's just they got a little front shop yeah they got a and they don't front shop the right word and usually they don't have very little very little product on display because it's like secure sure like you're looking at add that as like an access fa yeah I don't know I think that I think that makes sense if we're going to allow it that we got to make them make let them be successful so I think I think you could put a c and i1 for cannabis ret as a standalone because just to be clear those micro businesses and me meso businesses that would be allowed in industrial would be that would be that I don't know if they what they all if they just sell it from there or they do other things than them to be honest so I don't I don't know for the micro and mesel business these little industrial bus that they decide where the retailers and their customers usually come to right I don't know if they're also cultivating in there or doing other so are what you're trying to say is the meso business is the description that he just gave of if someone wants to one cultivate process and sell at the same location those would be the that would be the license they would be required to obtain yeah so I don't know again if they're just selling it there right or they're doing other things in those building I think since we allow retail in i1 we should add it either as a c or an A to an a being to one of the other uses that make sense to i1 in the event that in the the state might uh allow manufacturing place and instead of having them go through the license for a meso business or something they just give them an endorsement for retail or something like that you want to have that option for them sure I I just think it's well and and or it it if they're not doing all of it but they're doing some of it that doesn't allow the the meso business right um and then it also gives the option we do have a fair amount of industrial gives a an option for a small operation to to be there as a c so and there are other things that might be considered as well that uh again would be probably reviewed by the attorney's office related to are there size limitations to these facilities that you would look to see that are um above what uh the limitations are for the state and I'm not sure if that's something that uh the city can do um but it's something we could certainly look into um anything else on the [Music] table okay should jump into uh you can put that setback Slide the the buffer so right now you in the ordinance you drafted you're suggesting just 100 ft similar to alcohol yeah not necessarily but that's what's in there more so that's kind of the jumping off point of here's what is normally uh what you'd see in the city code today I'm fine with that so I wonder f a joke though I Dre but why make a difference I mean schools doesn't bother me mostly because we only have one and there's not any business nearby it you know maybe there'll be more in the future hopefully but and those students are not going to be visiting one of these facilities of they're going to be do the one they're going to be doing the home one they uh they they visit the restroom at the high school they do and the other note that I'll mention too on this is that uh for businesses in the buffer requirements if a facility is put up prior to a school or whatever may be um included in these buffer requirements comes in after the fact that location is entitled to maintain their operation they don't have to up and leave uh and find another location that's outside of the buffer requirement I I would think like daycare facility you know is there any buffers for just like residential even when you think of 500 ft though it's nothing I know I mean 100 ft doesn't even get you to the playground Elementary if you had a daycare 500 ft from that door is going to get sh out of the parking lot yeah you know or maybe into the street a little bit it's not like well like I mentioned before there are buffer requirements for commercial or industrial properties AB buding residential that are already included probably not to the extent of what is allowed here by Statute um but there is that to go off of Town's development right like if there's a daycare that gets put in there can one of these things exist in that same retail area as the daycare I kind of view it as no different than a tobacco shop or an alcohol shop so they're still going to get compliance checked something I don't I mean I mean I get your point but yeah I kind of view it the same and that's why if the alcohol is 100 feet that's why I kind of feel like well that's 100 feet I do agree that nothing yeah but I think your contention is any more than that's not really anything either yeah I I think the only one that that stands out to me that we may want to consider and it's as we look at like the town the town center area that we've been had been talking about last year with French Lake and like 500 ft there from a public attraction you know that just helps it not be the front and center the first business yeah I mean that's that's kind of one of the ones that that jumps out at me is more of a so in thinking okay so if we go to the slide with the the GRE was it green Goods or whatever it is um so this is an existing store in bla and other than guessing what that are selling you you really don't know it from the outside yeah they want to be discreet so they don't have they help with security people find them online and then think there is also a provision in there that mentions you know product can't be visible from the outside it would be just kind of a standard rule for these brick and mortar Stores um and regarding security I've seen States I've seen cities that uh do require extensive security from a zoning standpoint in discussion with uh between staff we figured just as a kind of a standard operation of these cannabis businesses if the business owner wants to be successful in their location they're going to take that upon themselves rather than um having the zoning ordinance regulate that side of it well again I think longterm it's not going to be much different than alcohol like it's just new it's new yeah it's new and it's differental it's newly legal it's not new it's newly legal but like I don't think long term once everyone adjusts I feel like it's going to be very similar to alcohol and they'll have to take the same things but I would agree it should match what we have for liquor license in place like that I think it should match and if we don't think 100 is sufficient then we should revisit that for liquor as well but yeah I think the primary objection uh like you mentioned that it's different from alcohol in that when it's consumed yes there is an impact to people around it but selling it locating a business to sell it doesn't really provide any harm more anymore than an alcohol liquor store would yeah or or a smoke shop you know selling cigars and cigarettes and Peter had a good point about the public park because then people might buy it and go use it there but still if the max by law is 500 ft that's not very far to walk it's not very far but it it I'm just thinking about like that area that we we had done a concept plan for and like you know it just sets it off of the main road and puts it back further and they're still going to walk to it it it's just well it sounds like they're probably going to want to be off the main like they don't necessarily want to be front and center so the the storage they like well again keep in mind a lot of them have went in when it's not allowed by federal rules and banking so maybe in security issues so who knows I'm I'm also thinking like elsewhere that we have buildings already and this isn't an issue yeah I don't think anywhere that 500 foot isn't an issue with any we already have buildings it's that area is the only one that something to keep in mind when really keep yeah the Town Center gets yeah closer well depending on how large the uh Town Center area is for that zoning District uh if it's small enough it could be very well likely that hey this isn't the right area for it we can remove it from the the use table for that district and as far as the number of retailers are cultivated I guess I'm in the boat that that probably doesn't matter yet we're overthinking it if we try to say it's three or two or sure I don't think it matters yeah and the only thing that uh the state allows for uh um setting a threshold is for retail cultivators and Manufacturing and those things we can't limit those uh within the city code but the city code would uh have the ability to if they chose to do so um set a limit on retail shops I guess yeah I guess I'm I guess unless someone's got something else to convince me I guess I'm not sure why I see why it limitate we had two one out of business yeah the Market's going to dictate it yeah yeah we just like we said we don't even have the brick and mortar for them to be located in Rain Tree other than rain tree or the new Sundance Woods pot district suance greens that's going in a minute it's going to be the first one trade market MH uh do we want to limit the hour just went off in Tom's head I don't well the discussion on hours of operation for retail is uh really related to the licensing process that would be established by the city code and not otherwise included in the zoning ordinance but if I would say just like the buffer requirements for liquor stores and tobacco is specific to the city code because this is inclusive of all the licensed businesses it's seem like it would be more applicable in the zoning ordinance side of things um but that's certainly something for the city council to when that city code Amendment comes through for retail registration to consider so I think we brought up an interesting point earlier about out going back to zoning we we brought we may not be able to limit outdoor outdoor cultivation outdoor cultivation is there is there an something maybe to chew on is there an egg District that makes sense to allow it outdoor cultivation yeah to allow it or not to allow it or not allow it right I mean it's cash crop so it's probably no different than an agricultural crop I guess when you think about it like can we even regulate it I guess is my question right well and that's the other thing too is the good the good side of this is that all of these businesses will have to go through a licensing process being able to prove that they can meet the standards that have been established at the state level so we kind of already have that floor to go off of and to your point there might uh there might not be a way that we would further um kind of regulate outdoor cultivation in in Dayton so what I'm hearing is I have a new farm plan 18 Acres get rich let's keep the horses like any Market though that's what I learned this other class even before it became legal the problem is that there's such a huge black market it's everywhere oh yeah it's so over supplied so quick it's hard to make money yeah I'm very much joking on that one people can't consume it fast enough and the the separation between outdoor and indoor cultivation again was a public safety recommendation and when I got the information back from the city attorney that we could possibly get challenged on that it kind of comes down to um perception of the ordinance of hey you're not allowing this and it's like no we do allow it it's just indoor and Industrial but then it's kind of a you know which which way does the Statue really what's the in inter real interpretation of it well and I think any outdoor cultivation of any crap you want to protect your Crow you know if the fear of somebody coming in destroying it stealing it whatever you're you're going to want to protect it it doesn't harm anybody growing there right you know it's and the state will be responsible for um kind of I guess I'm blanket on the term compliance checks for all these license facilities aside from the retail if the city uh takes on the retail uh registration process they would be the ones that would uh conduct compliance checks to make sure that uh they're complying with city code do we have anything else got enough to go on for draft or I think so this has been a great conversation um going off of what we had as a benchmark I think one my guess is that uh an ordinance would probably be held for public hearing at uh in November and uh it gives us the opportunity of hey if there's still outstanding questions that we want to bring forward to the boards and commissions uh we could do so in October one of the things that we could probably touch on in October would be the home occupation side of at least discussing the lower potency side of things and uh whether that would be something that uh the city would be interested in kind of utilizing or not I think the one question I would ask is and I don't know enough about it but if you're doing it in your home how do you mitigate the orders for your neighbors right and do we want to get in the policing of that if I mean obviously if they've got a bunch of Licensing that's already covered they're licensing and someone inspects it and I'm assuming the city who's going to be inspecting these if there's complaints the city or the state the city well from uh the home occupation side of things it would be the city okay so that's the one thing that's going through my brain is making sure that that's mitigated if we're going to allow it and not having to you know constantly try to police it sure yeah and I think uh initially when I first put this together um I think I have a provision in there that uh prohibits licenses within egg and residential districts limiting this to Commercial and Industrial because that's really what the intent of the the licenses are again that's a great comment on all right I think that concludes our new business thank you MH thank you jump back up to page one all right staff updates y right on of time uh so up and coming for October in uh well actually before we get to October uh so the master plan openhouse will be Tuesday September 17th 6:30 to 8 we encourage all the plan Commissioners to attend uh this will be at the community center at um attached to U fire station one in in the village um so again it's Tuesday September 17th we will mail out notices to property owners that are within that one square mile master plan area what time is it start again 6:30 6:30 to 8 and we'll have cookies uh so looking ahead at the October Planning Commission I I don't know if these items will be on the agenda or not but this is just what I'm anticipating is uh for the parkway neighborhood in Dayton Creek uh both these projects are in uh the southwest corner of the city um on the map it will be the green and the kind of the pinkish area um as well as possibly an amendment for Fisher farm so I don't know if that'll be October or November and then going straight to the city council will be the eaw for Dayton Parkway that'll be on September 24th and then uh the Met Council about two weeks ago came out with her policy statements for leading up to the 2050 comprehensive plan uh met Council will have a public hearing for those on Wednesday September 25th and so my goal is to bring kind of our reaction to the Council on Tuesday September 24th uh just in time for the Met council's public hearing so uh whatever we come up with this will be provided to the commission but it will not go to the commission meeting um and that's all we've got uh I think we'll likely get a conditional use permit for an oversized garage um whether that's October or November um but that that's that's everything that's in the pipeline right now questions everyone awek make a motion to adourn second we have a motion from Paul and a second from Nick all those in favor I I I meeting is adjourned e e