e e that's we would like to call the uh December 12th Planning Commission meeting to order the the first item of business is the Pledge of Allegiance to flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands Nation indivisible with liy and Justice uh moving on to item number three on the agenda the role of the Planning Commission uh I'm just going to read this real quickly the Planning Commission consists of five residents appointed by the city council the commission administers the comprehensive plan zoning and subdivision regulations the commission conducts public hearings and provides recommendations to the city council it is a city council who may approve or deny land use applications uh moving on item number four is the approval of the agenda um just one item to point out we are going to shift some things around on the agenda in hand um with that being said uh I need a motion and a second to move item in new business item a to follow the public hearings item a essentially it's linking the concept plan for the TQ Farms with the A3 zoning to our A3 discussion we'll bring that up earlier in the meeting so moved I'll second I'll those in favor I I perfect um moving on to the consent agenda uh these are routinely or previously discussed items that are enacted with one motion um all it's on the consent agenda is the Planning Commission minutes from November 7th do I have a motion to approve those minutes I'll make a motion to approve second all those in favor I I motion carries item number six open Forum open forum is for anyone here or online that has public comments on items that are non-agenda items uh these are limited to 3 minutes is there anyone here for any non-agenda items no one's online there is no one online Perfect all right moving on to item number seven Council update uh okay so 12th um we uh certified the election we got a third quarter report financial report which didn't have any surprises in it um we also discussed the long-term plan but the only change there we agreed to move um the plan for the fire station and City Hall and Training Facility out to 2031 based on uh the um uh resident survey results we passed Eda bylaw or we rejected an Eda bylaw Amendment they wanted to allow um members to miss uh meetings so so we have this rule that we put in place I think about six months ago that said that members of the commissions can't miss more than three meetings they wanted that to be contingent on if that was an excused miss or not which we we didn't we didn't do that uh we awarded the bid for the North Bridge of ELC Stevens um the the uh pedestrian walkway and so for November 26th later budget work session uh that was a lot of there was a lot of discussion in that and and I'll kind of cover where we ended up with that this last meeting two days ago we um did approve you had seen the Fisher Farms iup Amendment we did approve that we also rejected the master plan um pretty much for the same reasons you guys did the variance for the sign uh for the quick trip sign was is um approved I think without any without or with a lot of the things that you guys had discussed um discussed the parkway neighborhood um same issues that came up before you guys and we pretty much agreed the py addition was approved and then um let see what was on so the budget let me get back to the budget for Tuesday we did finally approve that um it was a uh want to say just under a 12% increase it was past 4 to1 12% increase in the levy uh there were two the two full-time firefighters the two police officers uh there was a couple part-time I think for parks and um see we had a few other things too but I don't have it in front of me here I don't know if you guys have any questions about those things nothing I'm just going to get to the agenda so I can walk through that from yesterday May Fisher on the Quick Trip signage yep conversation did did you did the council also Echo the desire for a monument sign on the Dayton Parkway side so what we did on that was um I think they were suggesting can you help me with that said an ordinance Amendment increase the height of signs from uh 8 8 ft to 12 was it 12 or was it 16 I think it was 16 specific to Monument signs the height of Monument signs right yeah but a monument as opposed to a pole mounted sign yeah I think they they did agree that they working with the monument I think it was just a question of dealing with our 8T limit or 8 foot limit uh there was a uh V ation of some easements on the zagler property with their rearranging of those two properties there was an adjustment in River Walk for a uh easement or it was a vacation in Le of another one another easement that was going to be created uh there was a lot of discussion Parkway neighborhood wants more financial assistance than we were looking at and that was kind of kind of um pushed to see what those numbers really were um and then we had a Clos meeting on the police Union negotiation that was it any questions Y no I'm good all right moving on to item number eight public hearings the first item on the public hearing is a concept plan for TQ Farms thank you Mr Mr chair okay so this this is a as you mentioned it's concept plan for TQ farms uh located on lale Lane um with the concept plan this is a uh there's no action that's required but the idea is to to solicit informal comments from the commission and the council uh you have one commissioner that says they like this and another commissioner that says they hate that and it's up to the applicant to figure out what does it mean and how to adjust that for when a a preliminary PL is submitted so the next step after concept plan is preliminary in this case we would do preliminary final plan at the same time um depending on a few other scenarios there may or may not be variances involved okay um so this is generally uh you I'm going to round up numbers it's about a 35 acre project that consists of two Parcels there's a 15 acre parcel and 20 acre parcel so we have the 15 acre parcel that's kind of in a a I don't know different configuration and then a 20 acre rectangle what the applicant would like to do is take is subdivide off five acres from the 15 and then combine this 10 acres with the existing 20 acres so it would go from two properties to two properties there's no additional homes are involved so when we're talking about a subdivision um yes it's a subdivision but it's not a 100 houses of compared to what we're used to uh talking about when we look at subdivisions critical issues with this we have four different items the first is a variance to reduce the minimum minimum lot size from 48 acres to 5 Acres so these properties are zoned A1 agricultural the minimum lot sizes 40 acres second item is uh to reduce the variance from variance of lot Frontage from 30 300 feet to 60 fet and I'll go into a little bit more detail in each one of these third item is roadway eement fourth item is a molum see there we go okay yep uh variance so the first critical item on a variance and as stated earlier uh the properties are zone A1 agricultural in which the Min minimum lot size is 40 acres uh meaning in order to subdivide you have to have into two lots you have to have 80 acres U because both Lots existing lots are less than 40 acres they're legal nonconforming they can um we can move property lines around but we cannot uh reduce the property we cannot make the lots more non-conforming than they already are unless there's a variance that's uh uh approved for this so um at the concept plan stage I I'm not asking that the council justify or debate the the merits of of variance or not it's just that'll come later once a variance application is submitted it's more if you have um any direction for the applicant on whether or not to pursue a um Al later on the separate but related uh later on tonight we have a discussion on creating an A3 District which would allow it a smaller lot size than 40 acres if that A3 district is adopted then the variance of the lot size may not be necessary uh critical issue number two is a variance reduce the lot Frontage from 300 ft to 60 ft so lot Frontage is measured at the building setback line in this case um if five acres were subdivided off this parcel would be land locked except for uh Frontage along this roadway easement so it's 60 ft wide 60t uh lot withd that could be resolved if uh if this is planted as right away to include a a culdesac um if including Colac then it can avoid that variance for lot width third item is a roadway easement um so a little history so in 2004 I believe this the Duke property was 5 acres and the intent was to sub divide this into two uh creating this lot which would be Lan locked but for the dedication of an easement uh roadway easement to the city uh that benefited both the Duke property and the Bennett Property uh the Bennett Property already had an existing driveway access onto laale and so for all practical purposes uh this exists as a driveway uh within the the public um or the city's easement um issues with that is it is an easement it is not RightWay as it is existing um and questions that I'm looking for some feedback from uh the commission as well as the council is should the developer be requ required to develop to build this as a public Street um where it would be maintained by the city and the second option is uh to be left as it is and for the city to Grant a limited use agreement to both properties to use it as it is so what this would mean is the city would not maintain this at all and it would be up to the two Property Owners to share that maintenance cost um staff's recommendation is the limited use agreement fourth item is the mum and and this is something that we still need to do some research on so mum essentially is a Cemetary um this should be platted as a lot separate lot or an out lot um as well as to provide a a driveway or an access easement to a public roadway so um I'm assuming that the intent is for this property to stay in the family for many generations if it doesn't uh the MIM or the cemetery should be protected so that it's still accessible and believe the applicants Engineers here so any questions for the applicant or for staff and this is a public he I got one question for Staff first um I know some other cities track building to tile bement like so for example if you have a 40 acre 45 acre parcel and if it's one per 40 you have one building entitlement sure do we track building entitlements in that sense or do we just call things non-conforming Lots um so we we first we we don't track that okay um so if you have a non-conforming lot you can build on I guess the only exception would be is if it's an outlot so Y in our A2 district for example you know A1 it's minimum lot size of 40 acres A2 it's a minimum maximum density of one home per 40 acres so you have let's say The Farmstead or the the home that's subdivided off from the 40 Acre Farm you let's say it's 5 acres and then 35 acres is pled as an unbuildable outlaw okay that makes sense yeah so the biggest thing is we're not tracking so you start lots of record and Y and follow the code for subdividing yep John I'm pretty sure we do track that because when we do splits so we did a split um the chch on Fernbrook we keep track of the lots that maybe I misunderstood the question but when a lot becomes when a chunk is split off and it's not 40 we do record somewhere that it can't get a house on it sure so I mean there there's way I guess I'm not sure how we've done that in the past if if it was you I remember the cemetery I don't remember how we we did that if it was planted as an outlaw or if there was a deed restrict ition might I I don't know yeah I I was under the impression we simply kept track of it somewhere but I don't know how yeah we've done that that's not the first one we've done right and it even makes sense maybe even with the Duke property being split off in 2004 or five acres it could have been could have been something like that where the other 35 was just had no entitlement anymore yep I don't know okay um I if we do track that I think that's that's a good thing to bring up in these future conversations with some of these Parcels just so we know we're not doing something that wasn't int wasn't intended or we need to change something to make it intended or whatever uh one thing I forgot to mention so we did receive um uh two emails that were distributed to the commission prior to the meeting tonight so it's for uh public testimony and just for the record uh the quilling family is a client of our the company I'm now employed for and I've done some Consulting on their properties so not in Dayton or I shouldn't say most of the the Consulting is outside of Dayton because I just have homes it's mainly with their commercial properties um but I'm going to refrain from providing specific comments about the concept plan because of that I don't have any questions yet okay no questions yet I'm sure I will have some but not yet all right would the representative the applicant like to come forward at all good evening chair and council members or uh sorry Planning Commission members uh I'm Joe Ric uh consultant for uh Jason quilling um I put together the application and I just wanted to mention a few things that we talked about with uh Jason so um he's been a resident for 30 years of the city of Dayton and he bought that property to the West that 20 acre piece several years ago um it's a separate parcel there is easement access to the parcel I step up yep so there's the existing public roadway easement through the Duke property and the old Bennett Property which is now part of the grilling property and then there's an easement a 60t easement over this property as well that provides access to this parcel so it feels like there's legal access to that parcel so that what he's trying to do here is potentially he could do it without any variance to build a house he could build a house as on the property as the 20 acres as it is today right okay so that's the ultimate goal um but what he wants to do is his daughter lives in the house next to the Duke property he wants to split off that 5 Acres give that to his daughter keep the 10 acres with the 20 acres combine them and just build his estate so we're not talking about building additional houses more than what can be built on there today it's really just about reorganizing the land to you know make it more usable for him and his family um so I just wanted to let you guys know that that I think regardless of what the city allows us to do his goal is to build the house that's what he wants there's other goals he has here um he does want to combine the property so that he has 30 acres and and do the Improvement that he's showing so we've done the Wetland delineations he's been planting trees out there he wants to convert it into like an estate property you know right now it's kind of agricultural land it's been degraded over the years people have been dumping things in those Wetlands so he wants to improve the property as you can see what he's showing there um and yeah that's essentially what the ask is is to provide some option to split the property not creating any more Lots but split the property so that they can reorganize it so he can give his daughter um the 5 acre parcel and retain the rest um they are planning about a $1 million Improvement to his daughter's property and the home that he's building it'll you know probably equate to about a $3 million Improvement back there so it will increase uh property taxes as well and the mausoleum yeah he has an attorney that's looking into that it's it's kind of one of those things it's an idea but it's not a contingency right it it we can live without it he's looking into it but it's it I don't want that to be the reason to hold things up um and then I know there's um some discussion on the roadway easement um it's our opinion and our attorney's opinion that we have the right to use that easement it was it was 30 ft was granted from his daughter's property and 30 ft from the Duke property it's granted as a public roadway easement um and if technically if the road were to be built the Dukes would have to pay half and the quillings would have to pay half um we're not suggesting that we the quillings would be happy to pay for the entire Improvement whatever is necessary there we're not trying to put that Bur on the Dukes um but our opinion is is we have the right to use that for our land any questions for Joel from commission members I would say I had a hard time it took took me longer than it should have to wrap my head around exactly what was being asked um and and like what is like the existing use like when I look online or when I drive by versus what it's proposed to be don't seem to match up so that was a little bit of a confusion for me and looking at where like where you have the road drawn where the actual physical driveway is on the property map like a lot of things are just not lined up for me and so I'm having a hard time kind of wrapping my head like you have this beautiful road with um trees on other side but the actual existing driveway is very much closer to the other property line and and um part of their driveway is actually in the easement which I I don't know nearly enough about easements I have more to learn there um but yeah there's just I just this I had a lot of questions a lot of this just doesn't make sense to me as someone like what are some of these out buildings for and they seem to be rather randomly placed and not in any way to perform connected to other properties and then there or buildings and then there's a lot of large equipment being stored there um and then you know you make reference to existing trees but I don't see any evidence of existing trees so um I just had a lot of questions that I don't quite have answers to you want you want to go one over one at a time sure yes okay I can speak to the the equipment I know that I've read the emails that we received from The Dukes and the vargas's and uh there is there was concerns about the construction equipment or the trailers parked on that property so he if you guys remember I was here probably about a year ago he was going to buy a piece of that property in the Dayton Fields um development where um endpoint is now or not endpoint uh it's still for sale but yes um the property on 121st the new 121st went in between Brockton and uh French Lake Road West Side of French Lake on the south side of 121st he was in here for approval and and we actually got approved to build a 40,000 ft office warehouse for his building qt or quality trusted Commercial Roofing um he currently has a facility in Brooklyn uh Brooklyn Park um but he was outgrowing that um however just recently he was able to uh work with one of the neighboring properties to acquire some additional land so this year he's been clearing that land and and making it ready to be able to house more of his construction equipment and uh Trail so that was a temporary condition here he has no intent of parking those trailers here long term um and again I don't want to get bogged down in in potential discussions on the use of the property but that was a temporary um a temporary use that he was just moving those trailers out of his current business so that he could build up this new outside storage yard that he bought from the neighbors um so those will not be there his he doesn't want them there he wants to build this beautiful estate to for him and his family and his grandkids that now live next door to enjoy it's it's not going to be a Contractor Yard I know people were concerned about that that is not the intent at all he wants to improve the property plant the trees restore the wetlands uh create the Prairies um he did put in the paved area that's a tennis court he's an avid tennis player so that's a tennis court and Sport Court he put in the golfing green um so it's it's really uh an outdoor kind of active area you know a lot of folks in this neighborhood have pools and Sport courts that's what he's building here it's not a commercial Contractor Yard or anything of the sort and I think we by ordinance I mean they we can't operate as a Contractor Yard well that's a separate issue is that's not what we're here to discuss today if there if you guys have concerns you know we're happy to address them but I think that's kind of a separate discussion than what we're here for today so another question I need to know more about the easement and the driveway and the the what I see on like the property maps online versus what I see on the drawings don't don't line up really um and so like in in particular it looks like part of the driveways or not the drive like the actual the existing driveway the existing driveway um is not in the middle um by any stretch and um no it's not it's actually entirely on the southerly 30 ft of that easement yeah but um to be fair there's nothing in the easement document that says it has to reside in the middle it's there's a 60t swath of publicly dedicated easement and that the axis has to reside within that 60 ft I think the reason it is where it is is because that easement was originally um put in place for the split of the Duke property which was a 5 acre property and now it's two 2 Acre Properties with less the easement Joe you had mentioned earlier that um Collings would uh be willing or or have the intention of of um I'll say reconstructing that driveway yeah Absol C okay and the way the easan document reads is that if it were to be built to a city road standard like it suggests that it would be a split cost between the two D properties and the previous benett property or now the quilling property um we're not going to enforce that we would be happy to build it to whatever standard the city wanted to access the property um cuz we we don't want to burden the Dukes I mean we understand it's a problem but um I know John you had stated that we were looking at a license agreement versus um platting the right of way and and doing a call to sack it's one property it's one house like yep it feels a little oh it well honorous to build a road with a called theack for one so I guess staff's opinion is to um I'll say dedicate right away with a culdesac and then just build it as a driveway okay so that it would be a future option if yep needed 50 years from now it's it's there if it's needed yep and that certainly could be done um I think the easement is already there so that's it's a little bit of a it's already kind of been put in place so it would be layering on top of what's already so it's so intend to to take 30 ft of RightWay from The Dukes then and and convert that to RightWay ideally but that's not part of the plat so it's not something we can so we would just dedicate our half okay I see yeah I I think that's an option you wouldn't be able to take more from The Dukes cuz it's already up against their house well we can't take anything because it's outside the plat boundary yeah yeah I mean there's nothing to say that that driveway couldn't be the road could couldn't be reentered it's just the way they built it it was self of the within the easen it could go anywhere in there correct assuming grading works right it's just the the back Duke property like is pretty tight in there right so I mean any reconstruction is a Major Impact to their the function of their current drive right so with the division you'd end up with a 5 acre property with a home then you'd have a 10 acre property in the middle that does not look like there would be a home that gets combined with the 20 that gets combined with 20 it would be a 30 acre parcel so no additional Parcels it's just kind of re and then you would have multiple buildings on on that property well the one out building and then the house and and garage by the house so the yeah well the the maintenance building whatever that is number four up the property it's already there but that's an out that's a structure there and then you've got the the house a garage and then I don't know the counts as a structure or not yep John was the uh there was a question about the easement type it wasn't a traditional Road easement is that clarifi the language is a city roadway drainage and utilities I have it right here public roadway drainage utility and other a pertinent purposes over under and across that part of the Duke property and Better Property assume the house if it was built where it's proposed un well and septic correct you're not all these properties in this area are well and septic I don't back there any anytime soon right right correct so the utilties went through there really for power and yeah internet service or whatever private utilities yeah sir did you have other questions besides those two um well some of them were just uh oh you mentioned existing trees in the plan number 14 says existing trees but on um when I look at the map it doesn't appear to have existing it looks like some kind of Orchard or something yeah but yet it doesn't there's no I don't see any Orchard um and it in the neighbor and some of the um responses we got from people who aren't able to be here where that trees were actively taken down and in some cases they were starting to take down trees trees on other people's properties so that just was a disconnect for me yeah I I'm not so sure about um well I know for sure that the trees the orchard trees are not there those are not there and I and this was done by a landscape architect and it was they maybe mislabeled that cuz that I think that would be a prop those should be labeled proposed trees not existing trees um but yeah he did take down some of the trees by the homestead in anticipation of building the house um I know the intention wasn't to take any trees down on any other person's property and he has spent quite a bit of money surveying the boundaries of this property and has put in posts along the boundaries so again I wasn't out there I but I'd be surprised if they were taking trees on somebody else's property just cuz I walked this land multiple times and it's pretty well monumented so if it was it was certainly a mistake it was not intentional um but he has cleared a few trees on the Homestead site uh the the number eight there the house site up on the hill um and he's been taking down undesirable trees throughout the property as well because he wants to plant back native species and this is not really it's just my curiosity giant amounts of land and yet all of these houses are on like as close to the property lines as you can get why like why not give yourself a little bit of breathing room well there's a nice knob right there and it's it's a really beautiful spot that's the high point and then it looks over that Wetland to the west and then looks over the land to the north um so elevation yeah it's an elevation thing yeah for sure so that's that was not a deal breaker was just at first glance I'm like you have 30 Acres you put yourself right on the see why you would say that but that is the spot for the house that's fair yeah yeah now that I'm looking at the topography that makes sense I would like to hear if there are people here because this is a public for correct if there's no more questions for Joe you can maybe we'll have some more for you when we're done but uh absolutely thank you yeah at 7:06 I am going to open the public hearing on this matter if anyone here is wants to speak on this matter please come forward state your name and address Jas Duke 14661 Jason could you the microphone doesn't pick up if you could just repeat your name that Jason Duke 14661 Lan Dayton hello hello um I wasn't planning on being here but I got out of my daughter's thing so I made it quick um the proposed uh Road would impact my house my use uh pretty significantly I see um there has been a lot of construction traffic for the past since quilling had purchased the property from Bennett it's constant um my wife works from home it's all day in and out there's people so it's it's going to put a burden on usage of my driveway my road um a utility was planted directly like on the just on the quilling or Bennett side of the property line over the summer which kind of I don't know if a road can be put over utilities now but I guess my suggestion for this whole thing is that the road needs to be split property line like centered on the property line is what I would prefer happen if this is going to go through um I don't know what else to say I I wasn't planning on being here I've submitted some stuff that I hope everyone has seen but um I don't know I don't know what else to say honestly uh just to clarify for you Jason tonight's just a concept plan too so no actions being or recommendations really taken by the Planning Commission and the concept plan's going to go to the council and likewise they're not going to take action they're going to give feedback okay and then then the applicant if they're still willing to go forward that's when they'll come forward for actual action all right all right um yeah I guess I don't have a lot to say except I I don't yeah I'm kind of disappointed that this is what it's coming down to but it's uh IED today I've received a uh a purchase agreement from Mr quilling trying to buy my property from his attorney as well so there's uh they're trying to buy me out of this as well so I don't know it's uh it's not a fun time I plan on raising my kids here staying here at least till they graduate but I'm kind of getting forced out it feels like by this so I don't know thanks for your time thank you thanks for coming in is anyone else here to speak on this matter yes I would um my name is Jenny Vargas and I live at 14581 laale Lane um so I have the property that basically is kind of like the te point of where he wants to put his house and I butt up to the Dukes so yeah right there that's mine um so kind of the same thing I kind of opened this up and I mean obviously I've only had like a week to really kind of look at this and um I voiced some of my concerns um I don't understand the split first of all I don't understand why it's not why he wouldn't just give his daughter 10 acres and it would fall in line with all the other pretty much existing proper properties um on the street um the same thing I kind of was like oh wow you have 30 some acres and we need to put the house right up to my tree line um and then you know the cemetery I sent a picture of like you know after he cleared out all those trees in that area um pretty much from my master bedroom it's right there um and and all the people on Thicket Lane it it also would they would see it too um because those are not there so I don't know just Thicket Lane is right off the yeah Thicket Lane is behind and I can now see since he's cleared the trees I can now see the houses back there not so much in the summer when the trees are but for sure right now in the winter which is not a big deal and like I expressed like people get to do what they want on their own properties and that's that's totally fine um it's just I always I don't know I just have a bad feeling and I just question the intentions um because I know he said that it wasn't intentional that they started cutting down my trees but it was I mean literally it was during Co I think it was either 2020 or 2021 and I happened to be running late and my husband was working from home and we're watching all the trees fall down and we're like okay he's clearing out trees and like I said in my email he does beautiful things to his property he does like I will not deny that but um all of a sudden we were like man that all those trees on that back lineer on our property you can go back there and you can easily see the the sticks in like in there so like I can see they're all in my yard and I'm like go back there and you go talk to him so my husband got in the four-wheeler and the guy that was working back there he's like oh so what are you doing he said oh well Jason coin told me to to clear you know the clear out the like brush basically and then all of a sudden a big tree fell down and he's like well that one's kind of a big one so what and he goes these are all in my yard why are you even touching them and so then the guy called I don't know maybe he called quilling and we had just moved in in 2019 so a I'm not here to start anything with any neighbor and you know my husband and I were just like whatever we caught it nothing bad happened let's move on and hopefully it's all and it's been fine so it wasn't a big deal there was only one more instance where I was like okay what is going on so after he had cleared all these trees he had this like big huge whatever you stick the trees that mulches them up that big machine K and all of a sudden I see it like driving up my driveway or up up the side of our um driveway like next to the Hoffman which is the property next to me so the farmer usually kind of goes right kind of on that side and he drives up and he Farms behind our yard and so I ran back there and I stopped the guy and I said what are you doing driving like through my yard with this machine and he's said oh well you know quillin told me this was a farm access road I said it's a farm access road like I am not under the impression that my yard is like for the public to get to their you know areas so I kind of was like I I'm pretty sure this is private property and like if Jason needed to like send that machine up like I thought he would probably should have just stopped over and said hey you know do you mind cuz I mean that's typically how I am with my other neighbors you know it's not a big deal but when these things happen and now I'm just nervous that give a guy an inch he takes a mile you know and so there's that kind of um I don't know worry I have about the whole concept and like if that's truly the concept awesome right like I love beautiful properties it makes my property but I have a pool I put in a sport court I don't want to stare at a cemetery you know um I bought the place from my parents so it's you know I've been there probably longer than he has um so yeah I mean I know everybody who used to live in that all that area so yeah thank you yes so that's all I have thank you y I just I one more thing when I was driving in here I was listening and I heard something about the Duke property being a 5 acre parcel it was never a 5 acre parcel it's always been split property it was just the easement was granted to allow a drive to put in for the back property so it wasn't any condition of splitting property or anything there's always been two separate Parcels there so there's been a misconception with a lot of people on that so thank you for that thank [Music] you my name's Ernie borgan I live at 14821 Londale next to Jason and I had some concerns as far as the north I'm on the north side of him there are you north of quillings house yeah okay so you're you're right up here so this is Jason where Jason quilling lives and then you're just north of it right just North okay and since we we've got some issues with you know coming through our property there's a Calvert on going under ticket that is either plugged up but the water isn't flowing through and so it backs up on to my property you know which is fine but you know I think it's should be looked at but I don't understand I got this in the mail and it didn't come with the legend so I didn't know what golden numbers were on there so that's is there a legend for this or I did notice in the planning package we received there were some numbers that then referenced what those numbers meant yeah um I I didn't get a copy of it and you know it's uh um I don't understand what that far Corner up there it looks like it's a trail in a called the sack with a house sitting there you know right next to my property sure if if I could interrupt for a second Joe can you come up to the screen and just kind of point out what what is what abely okay thank you I just don't understand what and to be clear your property's to the north of oh yeah I think ER right there correct these are existing these are existing buildings so that's that and the to it and this is another back here so there's no new improvements plan for the property adjacent to you the only new improvements is this is already existing so it's it's really what we're talking about is the house in garage can I ask what is like supposed to be Road there yeah cuz obviously that's a parking lot which you said is a tennis court but it also has grael outside of it where all those trailers are yeah so like I said a landscape architect put this together about a year ago and to kind of just start the vision I guess okay and then Jason kind of ran it from there and I don't we haven't compiled the new kind of final plan but he did put in the golf green right here and the the sport court here so it's parking lot parking lot pavement but then there's gravel outside so what is the purpose of gravel that um like I said I don't know that we have a final plan of what everything is going to be some of it was just staging for the interim condition while he's under construction like I said he's acquiring more property in Brooklyn Park for his business and while that's under construction he's been using this area as temporary storage right around so behind that Barn then up there it looks like there's a trail this is just let's see going back going like this yeah back around yeah and these are just kind of depictions I I think this is probably an existing is that existing where they uh ride their horses or or what I'm not entirely sure what that is but it's not going to be a pave Trail or anything like that it's just a probably a walking trail or something nothing say are you going to have a updated like actual what's there for the next meeting or we on the survey it shows what's this is just a conceptual to show more the house but on the surveys that were submitted as part of the package um it does show the actual Improvement just for clarity like for p are here this is that gravel area you're talking about and then the doen so we we just had an updated survey done about a month ago so the conversations that are coming from the audience they don't get picked up by the microphone at all so if if if you have thank you John yeah thank you well anyway back a few years I when my daughter and son back in 2008 when my daughter and son lost their house and and uh I was trying to take my 11 acres and split it and I was denied and uh and because it was at the time that we were grandfathered in to I believe it was 10 acre lots and then that got changed to 40 acre Parcels or something like that so it's just uh you know I'm not trying to deny but you know what's what's right is right though do you have a this is because of this following discussion next if you could split your property today would that be something that interest you not anymore it wouldn't okay but at the time when money was tight and you know it was was a thought and we did checked into it and stuff so you know it's uh it's a nice neighborhood and you know that's we bought the property because we wanted privacy and stuff so I guess I'll wait and see what what happens and go from there thank you is there anyone else here on this matter I just kind of a comment could you please come forward set your name and address just for the record thank you uh Grant oood and I live at 14700 Thicket Lane so I back up my property backs up to the whole one side there and uh my only comment is Jason their good neighbor and uh like them but when Jason bought the property here the farm field he um get back here they added a new drain tile in that and my yard has a Swale that goes through it and then an underground pipe that goes back to the uh little cck or P whatever that drainage easement is there or drain not easement but the drainage path and once they put the new drain tile in now every spring my backyard floods and uh it would be nice in this whole thing to get that addressed and I'm concerned if they do much more Improvement you know cuz we're downhill from that that we'll get more water than we already get now and so I have two pastures there and uh the one probably 30 ft of the one in the spring we can't use for anything where before was not that way and I don't know 100% if that did it or if there's something Downstream that's doing it but it seems like it was right after the drain tile was added thank you uh Jack burnin's 14770 Thicket Lane I'm right next to Grant and uh I wasn't going to speak because I'm not super opposed to the concept other than maybe the lot split thing seems a little odd but um I I just Echo Grant's comments like my entire backyard floods now every spring so I don't know if it was the drain tile that they put in the 19 Acres that they bought or whether it's got more to do with what uh Ernie Ernie right yeah what he said where cuz it it all drains out to where Jason lives and then goes under Thicket Lane and that's been a really wet problem area for a long time and um so uh just Echo those comments I'm like I said I'm not I wasn't planning on speaking and I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept per se I can see why others are but just that that's my only comment thank you all right if there are no other comments from the public I am going to close the public hearing 724 um commissioner members do you have any thoughts on the concept plan or the critical issues yeah the uh one civil plan that you had up that shows that one see so you've got major Paving that comes in the front 5 acre property what what could be the front property and then that Paving continues to the to the barn that's already there or on property and then continues all the way to the back where the homestead would be um oh yeah I mean it's all connected within the quilling property it's not even using the the AIS Road there based on this like I wonder if there's a way to to accomplish that without having to make improvements or change that easement which would then affect the Duke property um to be able to just manage it all with on within their property um obviously there's a lot of land and in this in this uh diagram that works all right yeah so if if going that route staff's position would still be to dedicate the RightWay to allow future construction of Road whether it ever gets built is another matter but if yeah if um this access all came from I'm going to say if uh the larger quilling property had a a easement on the 5 acre to use the existing driveway um that could work but would we only need to build roads when the day it actually got subdivided for denser development and that's when they would have come us have the RightWay and not build the road yeah right well when they split their property they would have to dedicate if they choose to do that they would have to dedicate right away at that point in time yeah for it yes so the issue is that the new um the new property is land locked which is not allowed so that's the issue that yeah and Paul's saying potential in easement through their their own property not really landlocked there's already a driveway like they're already getting there there is a drive that allows access to the so it's it's not even it isn't it's there it's already existing I think that was where I was having such a hard time wrapping my head around cuz all the things like nothing matched up right like there's this image of what's really here there's this image of what's going to be but they're not the same and then the maps online aren't quite up so clearly a lot of these things have happened very recently because they're not even in the 2024 Imaging so it was just hard to like wrap your head around okay what actually has happened what is planning to happen how come the plans don't match what's actually happened in within the year because they're not on the map already so I don't I I don't see why they can't just use what they've already done to get to this property and just make an easement there and I don't I don't like splitting off into into five acres I think you could do a split a longer rectangle that's like 9.97 closer to 10 closer to our Target goal and still you know have a larger a larger um space that's a little closer to the road I could see that um but yeah I just like I said I just I at this point nothing makes sense like I'm kind of with some of the other people like none of this is making sense to me I would like a very clear plan that actually matches what reality is sure um and not a fictional plan of a future that does not match the future that has already started to roll out without permission so to provide a little bit of clarity so with the subdivision we're just looking at property lines so the the you know whether the Grove of trees is existing or proposed it that doesn't matter well I guess for me it's more the driveways right because the whole point of this easement is they don't have access but when you look at the actual survey they do they've already put in driveways so there are already driveways here and the driveways that are already here that they did within the last year because they're not on the 20124 aerial images if you look online so they've been put in within a year don't match up with the things that they should told us they were going to do concept plan yeah like none of it matches and that's where I'm stuck to know what is the truth and what is the actual plan cuz maybe they have way more money than I do but I would not have sunk that much money into Paving and putting gravel in for driveway areas that I had I intended to immediately turn around and turn back into native Prairie like I wouldn't do that I don't but maybe they have way more money than I do do but but I I would not invest the money to put improved surfaces in to drive on if my actual goal was to turn it back in Prairie so that's where like I said I'm having just a lot of disconnects between the information I'm given and we're not making any actions we're just giving feedback that's my feedback yeah I Echo that I mean it's a concept plan review and they provided a concept plan that needs updating right like it's just there's a lot of concerns I mean I also think that I mean we're hearing from a lot lot of neighbors that just have concerns because there's a lot of vagueness to what's going on here and it just seems like some communication amongst neighbors and um you know people live out in this area because they want separation they want the the rural field they want to be a look out at trees and farmland right I mean that's that's why we live in Dayton and um at least in this part of dayon for sure and so being mindful of where you play structures where you plant trees how you screen things like I mean I would think too that they if they're going to build this beautiful house back there they don't want to look out the front look at other houses they want to see nature so I think just being respectful of the neighbors that are out there being respectful of um the the land I mean this area might not ever get developed with large developments right I mean this might be an area that stays this way for very long time and um you know I bought an acre of land and the first thing I did is I planted 100 trees you know like cuz we want to see nature um I don't know what Mr quillings and goal is here um I think it'd be nice to get a more updated concept plan that actually represents that um you I don't want to see an impact to the the Duke property more than necessary there's a right to have a road there um whatever can be done to minimize that impact his house is right up against against that that property line right so I mean anything that's done there is going to impact your driveway and the use of your property and I have a hard time seeing like how what's already happening is going to change based on what they're showing here I mean it's still a single family residence farther back if he's running his construction company out of there that's a different thing right now that's it's a lot of trucks and if that's what they're doing right now like I don't know if that's that's it requires an interm use permit for home EXT in business yeah um and that would have a huge impact right if that's a real thing and longterm thing hopefully it's not it doesn't sound like it would be but um if it's just a single family residence where you have a couple car trips a day then you know maybe it's not a big deal but um there's just not that information provided to us to really understand but if that Road's going to get rebuilt I would agree Center it and treel line it and someday it could be a nice amenity but right now it's hard to know what's going on um as I mentioned earlier I'm going to just refrain from feedback on the concept plan but I do want to add a couple comments on the critical issues that staff brought up and uh Commissioners if you have any feedback on the four critical issues I think staff would appreciate it uh the first one is the variance to reduce the minimum lot size to 40 acres to 5 Acres um this is the one of them that I don't think is really concept plan related I think it's more of a standard of the city I would agree that we can't subdivide this property unless we amend the A3 District to allow for it like I am I'm not in favor of variances just to split things because people come forward and to want it like if we're going to do it let's make it consistent so everyone can do it I don't know if you guys have any feedback on that yeah I think I'd agree with that that I want the larger conversation about what what that means exactly it's got to be allowed in A3 before yes yeah and then it and it applies to everybody not just right whoever is yep in the A3 District y yes okay uh the other comment was a variance to reduce the minimum lot Frontage the 30 to 60 ft in my opinion this is More Concept plan related then it is a functional issue from a standpoint looking at it 300 to 60 just the way it lays out but I don't know if you guys have feedback on that I think it goes back to like what's the purpose of it like John when you the variant yeah when you when you can you illustrate on the map again what you were talking about because I just did where's the 60 ft the roadway easan is 60 ft wide and so this becomes the frontage of this lot onto a that's what I mean by it's kind of a technicality of code related to what you're trying to accomplish versus a huge variance of going from 40 to 5 if if a culdesac is or if RightWay is dedicated as a culdesac then now you have the 300 ft around the the culdesac that doesn't really matter to me to be honest yeah I it should but it doesn't well I know but if we if we have the larger discussion about the A3 and lot size and if we agree that 5 acre lots are okay then by default this becomes yes just hard dead ends to your property you're only going to have 60 ft that is what it is to land my property that just has that so that one doesn't bother me as much uh the next item was item number three RightWay dedication which was essentially there was the two options of building the road to City standards or like staff recommended to well I guess there's a third option is we just don't prove anything I don't know if we can do that because I think we need to understand more well we can't really get feedback on that because we need to understand the legality of what's allowed these yeah um but the options were the limited access road are build a city street if it's a single family resident only in the back I don't know what the benefit of having a build it to a city street standard would be that's only promoting yeah more use or people driving down and turning around and yeah getting lost or being nosy and wanting to rather it stay as ambiguous as possible to help the Duke families you know so they don't have extra traffic I guess my bigger concern there is how that requires a certain amount of like working together cordially and I that doesn't seem to be happen currently so I mean that's the argument for having the city do it because then the city doesn't you know what I mean like if if it's a road it's a road it's a city's responsibility and you don't have to like your neighbor and you don't have to work with them but if it's a shared driveway you have to work with your neighbor to maintain it and that seems to be currently uh maybe and typically the cost is shared 50/50 but if one person wants to do something a lot more frequently the next person it can be an issue and it's just a difference of opinion how stuff needs to be done yeah so which is one of the reasons why using the already existing improved roadway like they've already put in roads according to the survey so just use that so is does do the quelling use that road at all right now I mean there's a fence that goes blocks it right the fence goes right across the fence ends at the sorry I'm asking a question and in the audience and then he can't be heard so I apologize no okay so the the answer was M Mr Duke responded no yeah so it's essentially a private drive at this point in time and you take care of all snow removal and so I think that's one of my questions about easements and maintenance and this is where I need to know more but I have vague memories because I was a child that there was an easement on my parents property um for another property but like once a year they had to officially formally close it to that other neighbor so that they couldn't use it that day like make sure we didn't I don't like I said I was a child I have very vague memories of this what I my takeaway was ements get kind of confusing and there's a lot of weird legal loopholes and you have to be very careful and they're not straightforward and it's not just like this is the way it is which is why I'm like I need to know a lot more about this easement before I can have a an informed decision I think the question that I would like answered to help inform people as to our attorney is given it's an easement granted to the city and it's for public roadway is if it becomes Sun a limited access road shared driveway what obligation does a city have from a maintenance perspective of helping two property owners are we SP are we are we the one responsible saying you guys split it 50/50 are they responsible for figuring it out in the eand all the maintenance is on you know this is going back to 2004 all the maintenance is on the Duke and the Dukes and the Bennetts so none for the city and So currently this easement benefits the city so I'm just talking out loud I'm not the saying the way it is but generally cuz I bought a property I had an easement for hunting property and that even though the easement went across my land it didn't benefit me and so we had to redo the language so to me it seems like we might have to ask our attorney is hey do we need to add the quillings as a beneficiary of this easement too because really it's providing access to their property sure yep and in the process of doing that that's when you can maybe talk about a maintenance agreement between the parties involved since it is on the Duke's property ultimately it's going to benefit another property if it's approved okay I keep taking not keep talking y uh any other comments on the driveway then we get to move on to the last critical issue which I don't know how to really address but the cemetery see you any thoughts that you guys want to share to help the applicant and staff um so I guess I think part of it is like what's a mausoleum versus a like when when I hear Cemetery I think a lot of dead people from a lot of different families like that's what it means to me like to have a cemetery right where like having a dedicated um so my niece died of cancer and my her mom my sister wanted to put up um a little Memorial area for her on some land that my parents own and like that's not a mausoleum right like that's like but that's not a public thing like that's just for our family and it's just for now and quite frankly I mean it's not like generations and generations are going to care about this because one of your comments is if this is like a public thing if this property changes hands with the descendant of who has ever in the cemetery still need to have access to it and so I think I need to know more about like is this just a small private thing for like family right now that is not meant to be like long-term and that that I'm just I need to know I need to know more I guess about what that means just to help you all and myself cuz I just looked it up aazam is an external freestanding building constructed as a monument enclosing the burial chamber of a deceased person or people so I imagine that the question I guess would be to the applicant when they come back forward if they want this is are you envisioning little little places to put ashes are you envisioning places to put caskets um I don't know and I'm assuming it's going to be ashes is my guess but I don't want to make that assumption and then if so like what size of building are they talking about mhm Mr chair if I could clarify just for the record um when this item does come back in the A1 District cemeteries by definition in the zoning ordinance which includes mausoleums would require conditional use permit review uh so ideally that information would be provided at time of conditional use permit request so we'd have that within a project narrative to get an understanding of that intended use for a maum under that conditional use permits okay yeah so I guess that's the feedback that we're we would give the applicant is they come back in more details to better to help understand um in the actual subdivision platting process all right this is not an action item so we are moving on to agenda item the shifted one number we're we're moving on to the agenda item to discuss the A3 agricultural District thank you uh so I'm starting out this conversation of how did we get that here in you know preference again what I'm looking for the the commission is just uh comments and Direction um I'm thinking this is going to be a slower process that's going to take several months to get through so um okay so how did we get here so we have currently we have two agricultural well actually three but I'm going to simplify to two there's a A1 agricultural District which has a minimum lot lot size of 40 acres and then we have the A2 District which is a minimum D or maximum density of one home per 40 acres um the A2 district is not too common the general idea with this is you have uh 40 acre parcel with an existing home and I want to make it clear that it's it's an existing home um my understanding is often times it's difficult to get a mortgage on Farmland that has a home and so the idea of the A2 district is you could split off in this case 2 and a half acres and then um plant the remaining Farm Lane as an outlaw that's unbuildable so it's still one home per 40 acres this would bring up the whole building entitlement thing yes so if you had a 43 acre parcel split off 2 and A2 Acres so you know originally you only had one building acre the other technically if we were counting building entitlements what split off would not be buildable because the entitlement went to that home yes it's a very good point that that you made from a mortgage standpoint you can can't get mortgages on Rand yeah you can well not like but like not like the average the average buyer cuz that was when we were first looking that was why we had to look at things that had buildings on them because I could not get a regular cuz they won't touch anything that high Lo value ratios yeah and so um in order to get ours we had to do a contract for deed that was the only way we could make our swing so that Banks don't give mortgages and cities do or variances I mean so yeah uh in June 2024 we had a concept plan for the sheney property which is located on the Northwest side of Lake Laura Lake Laura Laura Lake I'm going to call it Lake Laura um so this the concept plan was for an unsued uh you know well in septic development uh it had a positive response from both the Planning Commission and the city council uh the council's direction was to pursue an ordinance amendment that would allow this to to continue so using Thicket Lane as an example um this is what the council wants to see more of in Dayton um so that we then had the conversation with the Met Council of of how can we make this work is it possible to take a portion of Dayton outside of the Metropolitan Urban Services area uh the Met council is very clear that the answer is no uh the future of Dayton is sewer development however long it takes we've got about enough land for 100 Years of development um at the rate that we're going right now um we have you know a number of land owners that aren't you know this within our sewer staging plan much of this area is in the 2040 and post 2050 sewer staging plan we have a number of land owners that would like to develop sooner than 30 or 40 years from now um and we have buyers that would like to have rural Lots uh the Met council's agreement um and I should back up a little bit within the Met Council regulations they would allow 10 acre lots we are more restrictive in our A1 District we're one per 40 uh the Met Council would allow using ter flexible standards to allow a density of one home per 10 acres so you can have you you might have a lot that's uh five acres another lot that's 15 but it still averages to 1% okay so that that's where we're at at the moment um the intent of the A3 district is to preserve rural character to encourage Hobby Farms and provide an alternative to sewer development in Dayton so as the commission and everyone has know we have a lot of development going on in Dayton um they're on typically small quarter acre lots uh with the A3 district there needs to be a clear understanding of we're calling this an interim land use not not to be conf confused with the interim use permit interim land use meaning that the 1 for 10 averaging is temporary until such time as Regional sewers available um and then those land owners would be would have the opportunity to subdivide into sewer development um practically from a practical standpoint that's going to take many decades to get there uh so the questions for the commission tonight is number one is to define the A3 District boundary and two is to establish a minimum lot size uh the picture here is of a Thicket Hills yeah uh the area that we're starting out with the conversation is Northwest Dayton so on the map on the left is the zoning map uh this is North Diamond Lake Road in laale uh the Dayton River Road and then Brockton on the sewer staging plan and and this is hard to read um the different shades of red are you know this would be the 2040 and then the post 2050 area the areas that are hatched in yellow are Parcels that are 20 acres or larger so again the intent is if the average L lot size is 10 acres then you have to have 20 acres to subdivide um the whole area itself that's outlined in red here is about 1,600 Acres although when you look at when you only consider those Parcels that are over 20 acres um it's nowhere near 1 1600 Acres that could actually be actually be developed uh so those Parcels that would benefit from them there's 14 Parcels um plus Daytona golf course which I I don't have hatched here uh it total 685 Acres which is the equivalent of 68 homes and that would include um existing homes as well so if you have an existing home on 20 acres you could split off one additional home one additional lot uh more about the boundary uh the general idea was to try to follow the Elk River School District line um that sort of works and it sort of doesn't uh we're trying to find kind of a a natural boundary which um North Diamond Lake Road it fits kind of a good southern boundary and then on the western boundary this is 80 acres or essentially 80 acres east of laale and it's roughly the Eastern order of a Daytona Golf Course um and then up to uh Dayton River Road and I'm going to go through these and then we'll come back to the actual questions uh questions on establishing the minimum lot size and so the the things that I'd like the commission to consider is the minimum lot size to make a rural property usable so if you think of if the intent of the A3 district is to uh encourage Hobby Farms what is the minimum lot size that's required to have a hobby and it the answer is it depends on what the hobby is um and then also what is the minimum lot size that keeps um a home feeling like it's Rural and and that's a little subjective it it also depends on the area that's surrounding the home beyond the property itself yep so and what the neighbors are doing and what the neighbors are doing so you can have a one acre lot surrounded by Farmland that looks rural but if you have a one acre lot surrounded by other one acre lots it's different mhm so I guess questions I guess like when I think of thick at Hills and I'm purposely picking on this because there's some residents of thick at Hills in here that maybe they can come up and speak on it but everyone thinks of rural character def differently I love Thicket Hills and that feel but that's not rural character to me that's just nice lots and nice homes um but that's different I grew up on 40 acres so maybe my concept of real character is Warped MH um but I think that the average lot size if you're not if you're not trying to preserve real character can work to our benefit to make this more flexible to get met console approval and by going with the average meaning that if You' got 20 acres yeah you got two lots but I'm okay if you carve about 3 acres here three acres here and you leave 14 undeveloped and it just has no building entitlement period so when you talk about minimum lot size I'm assuming that's what you're talking about too you don't have to necessarily Encompass all the Lots I mean granted you could finagle it different ways to make them both pin but I'm more thinking of the Shany property yep right we kind of the feedback was is how that was going to lay out and be functional is you're going to have some 4 acre lots you're going to have some 15 acre lots it's just the way it lays out with topography and preserving stuff sure um so we have I don't have a slide of this so we we have an existing development that's very similar to that at Stone Creek stone stone ston herth um off of 121st so 125th um this was uh an eight lot subdivision that was approved I'm not sure what year it was but it was uh developed at I'm going to say the mid 2000s as a a community septic system so it had a different same idea of what you're talking about um slightly different intent at that yeah and those lots I just clicked on one they're less than a half acre yeah so I won't NE I w't necessarily advocate for that because it's Community septic systems are probably not going to happen in today's prefer not to have one right exactly and so you need a minimum you start with a minimum what do you need to have a proof of concept for two drain fields and the little bit I know is you got to probably start with at least two acres to make sure that that's easy but every parcel is a little different depending on what's going on with the soils depend right so I'm okay with small like I'm okay with the actual like the average of 10 mhm that's is what it is that's what we have to comply to but I'm okay with a smaller lot and you know especially like on a shaning where you have a 5 acre maybe a 15 acre I think they you had one that was over 20 but granted it was a lot of unusable Wetland but yep so I want get hung up on the individual size of the lot in the sense of rule character because I get it if you got a 3 acre lot it's going to be a different rule character than a 15 acre lot so it would help us to have a minimum and and you know from the functionality is you have to have you know a house a well and the primary and secondary SEC uh septic sites you know that secondary site you it might not be needed for 20 30 years but right you got to have that space reserved for and it's technically not even needed then if you because you can do other things it just more expensive y a lot more expensive sure um so it it would still you know rather than I guess having a a no minimum where you just require um you have to have the well in the two septic sites be a lot easier to say okay it's two acres or two and a half you know pick a number I like the overall idea of of having an A3 having another option um for for size um a lot of it's going to come down to like what the other ordinances are like outbuilding and um animal units like we have to make sure those make sense because some of our rules are are are way stricter than other cities and some are actually way more restrictive and and from what I've learned a lot of them were just pulled out of thin air kind of like I don't know just pick an acre size and we'll move on right with the idea that someday we'll learn more and make an adjustment and that someday hasn't really come but this would be when because if I when I was looking when we were looking for properties my first thing was how many animal units right cuz I wanted horses and there were some cities that I if I had 10 acres I still couldn't have horses like I needed to have at least 15 Acres before I could even have horses at all in other cities I could have one acre and have one horse right like so so as far as what would make it usable for a hobby Farm some of that comes down to the other ordinances that go along with that animal units is the big one and out buildings is the big one um so it would be hard for me to sit here right now and be like this is the minimum lot size without without knowing for a fact that we would adjust and make sure the animal unit and the outbuilding ordinances were not also adjusted in such a to make that doable cuz what I don't want to do is create these supposed rural lots that then are other things say yeah but you can't actually do anything you can't actually have any hobby like you can't have any animals out there you can't have any barns you can't have any fences but you can have your Rural achorage right like that doesn't like I would want to make sure that all of those things are lining up appropriately um personally I would want to go smaller than five for for any of the hobby type Farms you know for the Hobby Farms I was looking at at I didn't even look at anything smaller than five just because I wanted to make sure that I could do all the things I wanted to do but I have horses which is bigger than people who necessarily want to have chickens and maybe want to have goats and um and sheep they could maybe do with slightly smaller how many acres do you guys have you have four so like it can be done on smaller but five was was kind of my threshold um and so yeah I would want to I would want to look at some of those other ordinances to see um and maybe look at the other like we have have some existing Hobby Farms in Dayton that are doing really well on smaller than 40 acres right so one of the things I'd want to do is take a look at all of those and and see how many of them there are um and and like not personally survey each of them but like are they is it doable right like um and some of them are people we know and but those are some of the questions I would have is is we have to make sure the other ordinances make sense with that um anything we can do to make cuz this is what I said when the sheny property came through we struggled to buy the 18 Acres we had that pushed our budget to the absolute limit which is why a lot of other things haven't happened that I had hoped for because there weren't like my next the other options were 40 acres and I'm like well I can barely afford 18 I'm sure it's like not affording 40 or 100 acres and that was like never going to happen smaller acre sizes just makes it more possible like that just opens the doors to more people who are genuinely interested in living this lifestyle and that's where like I want to come down as far as we can to make it affordable but yet still have a a minimum size that makes running a hobby Farm or some sort of agricultural business um a like doable so and I need to do more research on what that actual number is um but I like the idea very for this idea and I'm glad we're starting this conversation um I also want to look the person I was talking to they are also new to like trying to parse out MET Council rules and jargons but some of one their first reading through some of the the rules looked like the reason we got pushed because there are some some of our neighboring communities that are allowed to to do more of what we're talking about and met Council isn't coming as down as hard on them about it and it's because they have a slightly different label than we have rural there's like the rural Edge or Urban divers whatever it is R yeah um and this person's reading of the rules was that the reason we got pushed into the category we are is about the amount of land we have zoned is industrial no so and that's where that was this persons but like I've also you know I want to look more into that what I my big takeaway was that's a thousand page document and it's very possible that they like I've worked with those documents where one thing kind of said like one area says this thing and another area says this thing you're like which area which which rule do I actually have to listen to sure um and soit you so it's just to give a quick explanation so we're Dayton is the middle of a donut so we we have development going all around us and it's going to eventually approach into the doughnut hole it's going to keep getting smaller and smaller um so that that is why the Met council's plan is that eventually all of Dayton is going going to be sewered so I don't care about their plan John can I there's a few things that I'd like to interject here um so one one of the things I think everybody needs to keep in mind is right now and and this gets to uh a complaint I've had forever is I want to see how it is that M Council can control this because in my opinion they have no control for this they will tell you all day long that you have to stick to a 10 acre minimum but when you say show me where I can't find anybody to show me when we had met Council here I ped her down and her answer was well it doesn't comply with your comp plan except when I said where at and the comp plan doesn't and she said well you're missing a section I said well how did you approve with the missing a section the next response was well we're not going to require that till the 250 plan okay and that section is called an iup but it's an interim use plan and what they want to do is what are we going to do with the land so so and this got into another conversation let's say somebody's got um 120 acres and they want to split it right now we let them split it well what they want in this interm use plan is what would we allow that land to what would be allowed to be done to that land before it's once it's once it transitions from EG um or in between the fact or in between whatever it is today and what it's going to be when it's planned out and we know and know I'll pick on Jack here his property is roughly 120 Acres right now it is slated for low density residential that means three per acre although now they're pushing four per acre they want to know we're going to have a section in the comp plan that says what your plans on are for that property in the meantime today we don't have that so when I pressed them further and I said well what if we take that and split in half and she said you can't and we said why and we got into this circular thing um so keep in mind that the 2050 submitt will probably get rejected if we don't have an inuse plan at least that's what they were telling us that inuse plan will kill anything that we want to do that's outside of what they want what happens if they kill our plan our 2050 comp plan our 2050 plan it's a litigation process if you question is is how much you want to fight and it's a litigation process I think the bottom line is is that whenever we submit 2050 we're gonna have to I'm trying to think of a a good phrase here well we're have to take it um and but in the meantime we have this interim time to move okay because move so far I can't I I'm I'm not hearing where we get restrictions the direction that I think we're all going into is the the interim use is I'll say rural unsued uh residential within this boundary wherever that boundary is going to be um the future land use if that's 30 40 50 years from now is going to be sewer development y so the the intent Council what my council is saying is the interm use cannot prohibit uh the eventual Seward of this area which right and so if they were trying to like ask us to do everything like they wanted us to do that's what they want to see the ghost plats which is a huge burden on some like the property we just saw tonight what's the point of doing a ghost plat when the house is in the far Corner the it's like a waste of time and money as far as the ghost plat goes but I I think that's and even like the the shaning property even if you ghost ploted it it's like I don't know if that would ever happen that way because of the topography it's like everyone thinks of land in two dimensions and it's not and it's yeah yeah there was some of things I wanted to point out too um I think we have the old building question uh taken care of okay I I think um and then the animal units I think we we almost need to put that cart before this horse I I think we we can adjust the animal units I think the animal unit restrictions are kind of ridiculous once you get above a third acre but um when you think of minimum lot size like when you think of three acres I get so for example if it's a 10 acre average that means the other and there's only two that means the other one's 17 and I get your point about wanting a little bit larger yeah no but I don't think there's a problem on the small side it's like a trade-off and it I think it's easier to convince the Met Consul with in method that we're going to like it's easier to do a ghost plat when you got a little three 1 3 Acre and 117 acre than it is the opposite way yeah and I'm not against that I'm just saying if if if we if staff is asking for a minimum though like we want a minimum so yes we can do that but there still needs to be a minimum I at this moment in time don't feel comfortable saying oh it's X right I would need to know more um and I think part of it is a lot of it depends on the parcel right a 3 Acre skinny charm triangle where you're literally on top of your neighbors does not feel very rural um where if you have a more of a rectang or more of a square um it feels like and also what are you surrounded by like if you are right up against the road on one of your long skinny side that doesn't feel very rural if you've got a you know major roadway going past you um whereas if what's next to you is a lake like it it depends Wetlands Hills I mean they're all 10 acre lots but a lot of those lots have gorgeous wetlands like or on the flip side though if it's Wetlands it's not like yes it's gorgeous and whatever but if you genuinely wanted to farm I can't Farm a swamp like so depending so that's why it like I have a I kind of have a hard time with the minimum lot size so I'm kind of fine with the averaging but I understand what the city staff is saying like we need to have some guidelines yeah okay so I guess I think a range of three to are you comfortable at just to help staff narrow it down like three to five and then investigate more yes yeah cuz this is kind of what we're doing so another option and this makes it harder for us is you if you have a minimum um I'm going to call it developable area we need a minimum developable area so you know let's say it's 5 Acres but 4 and A2 is wetland um you know versus four I'm making up number say two acres of of buildable land and I would actually feel more comfortable having a limit uh having a hard number on the buildable like you need at least this many acres where you can build a build building and put your two septic system and then beyond that yeah cuz that's really what I mean at the end of the day that's that's the number that matters most yeah I can tell you down in Randol they did this comprehensive exercise Randol Township down in Dakota con okay I was thinking up so um anyway cuz met counil let them stay at two and a half mhm and where a lot of other people had to started bumping up to five and they thought to have all your pro septics they could get by with one and a half at the smallest interesting yeah but that's meing if you want to talk about buildable land it seems like a one and a half to two is the the that range of High Ground yeah yeah there has to be some flexibility built into it just because of uniqueness of all the properties in topography yeah that's why I'd hate to say the minimum too high and then all of a sudden we need to oh yeah go like well we got a gorgeous 12 acre or gorgeous 17 acre and this one's three but it just that's the way it worked out well and I'd rather have three that's all usable then 17 where I have like this little tiny inch of dry land I can do anything with everything else you horses and big pastures horses don't want to be in water either so um and it's terrible for bugs so like that's where like I'm I'm actually more in line with you let's let's define the usable and then the actual okay so let's focus on just the usable area yeah what number I'm comfortable with one and a half to two I think that we should ask some people that maybe have more knowledge of Designing septic systems yes that's going to be issue um in particular what what we know about our soils in Dayton on top of it you know that's going to vary a lot too because where I'm at is pure sand lucky you really yeah I have nothing but clay well if you dig down a foot and a half where I'm at it's a rock hard huh black clay but under that is sand for like 10 ft okay but um you know getting your question say I mean having a two bable um drain field areas I don't think it takes a lot of space okay but depends on the size of your home when well that mean you know fixtures right yeah it's more bedrooms driv you got three tanks and the and you got the field um it's got to stay away from everything but I mean I I don't know I don't I don't think it it eats up that much area but yeah I think we're pretty safe with the one and a half range from from what I was talking to the Rand Township people when I was working on a big project down have they changed the rules on well location to your septic 50 ft I believe whatever that span has been that way since I've known it someone told me recently that they they recently increased the distance your well has to be from your septic system you know your Well's down in the aquafer really I cuz they made well because they made a comment to me oh your well is really like you're lucky you got it in when you did because now it has to be further away that's the only reason I suspect the concern there is leakage through the the downplay to the well I I cu the aquafer itself is I'm I'm not personally worried it was just that person made that comment to me and I was like okay whatever so going back an anre and a half and then the question on what do you do with an anre and a half so an anre and a half let's say it's sufficient for a house a well in a septic system and in a pole barn it might not even fit a pole barn dep all depends I mean if you want more you need to have a bigger lot we're just talking the minimum buildable yep and but keep in mind we got have 10 acre Aver averaging so you're going to have if you have an I mean obviously the bigger Parcels are the ones that are going to give them more flexibility like the Shany parcel or if you only got 20 acres you the whatever makes the most sense the way to do that that's what You' have to do sure whether it's two t or a five and a 15 or whatever it might be so you you would have I'm going to say you know someone that wants not doesn't want to live next to anybody and then you have someone else that has a large hobby Farm welcome to Dayton versus having two Hobby Farms so yeah well did you do you have a guideline here that you want an average of 10 cuz I don't average of 10 acres not there but doesn't matter why do we why do we need the average of 10 is it I I I interpreted what you put in the report is the Met Council requirement that that's it so right now the Met council's requirement of the small set we can go in the agricultural area or without sewer and water is 10 acre lots um the me council is saying that they would allow us the flexibility of going in average density of 10 acres so it still achieves the same sense but allows the flexibility to have smaller lot sizes or smaller than 10 acres okay so we have an acre and a half and five so far the five being the total we haven't heard from yet five being the total quiet tonight um no for minimum lot oh for buildable or for I mean we're kind to talk two times if I was talking overall not minimum build gross yeah gross gross yeah that's what um I'd be okay with less gross just because again if we're doing 10 acre averages you're just going to have variety if you less that's all you're going to have yeah I'm not sure i' want to go less than two um I know that this is not a public hearing but there are some people in here that reside on these Lots we're talking about that I would like to open up a public he to see if they have any feedback on this yeah in particular if you guys I mean we're obviously having a pretty broad conversation but the question is lot size if you guys have any feedback on that in your experience um and anything else you want to add yeah so I'm going to open the public hearing at 8:13 please come forward St your name address okay um Jack F I do live at 14770 Thicket Lane so in one of the neighborhoods you guys have been talking about I also own 120 Acres on uh 17501 Dayton River Road which is um basically between laale and Brockton um my comments would be this the I mean raw land raw agricultural land today and Dayton is selling for between 25 and $30,000 an acre so if you going to buy 5 acres to build a new house not an existing home CU I think you can find existing homes in Dayton on 10 or 15 Acres because they've been grandfathered in at a reasonable price you know an affordable price anyway um but you know you got a half a million bucks in five acres already if you're buying raw agricultural land so my perspective and just for you guys to consider and I think you considered a lot of really good things um I would say you know between two and three acres as a minimum size would be more feasibly financial feasible for the land owner because you got to put a road or something in and that comes to my next point is on the road itself uh the less requirements you can have on that road something maybe either similar to what's in Thicket Hill or birkshire Hills which is a road without any gutter it's just a a road with you know no sides B you know it's a road but doesn't have all the fancy things you'd see in a neighborhood um or even a gravel road makes it even more affordable but you know I don't know that that's something that's feasible or not keeps their cars off of it yeah well keeps it more I I think the other thing is that and just speaking to my 120 which is you know a good portion of the 685 that's at least being proposed is is the area that this might be considered in um you know I if you did that kind of a lot size and most of mine's buildable you know but um then you know I can probably leave 60 to 80 acres as agricultural it'll be a Vineyard it'll be maybe farmed in corn whatever I eventually uh well maybe not you know in not too short order I'd like to make it actually Urban Reserve so that met Council actually couldn't get their hands on the sewer and water part of that but oh go ahead sir yeah okay um and I and I do think if the other property is ever developed it's easier to develop you know you got 60 or 80 acres with some Barns and egg buildings on them and and stuff like that uh I mean as you know we will be applying for an iup for an event center for a winery at some point in time here probably within the next 12 months so just being transparent um I was just trying to think if I had anything else um I and I think it it fits with the rural character Thing by having some smaller Lots but then leaving this bigger area agricultural so those would be you know I think my things to think about I I do if you're interested probably no one has a copy of this except for maybe a few people in Thicket Hill or birkshire Hills but there was a originally kind of an HOA for Thicket Hill and it had minimum number of animals and these kinds of things um glad to provide you a copy if you'd like it I don't know if it's what you want to do if you want to leave it you know like here's the recommended HOA for the land owner and and the city provides that or how that all works um I mean there were actually never any fees for the HOA but it was just like you know you can have one out building you can have so many horses you can have so many cows or pigs or what ever um chickens everything else uh so those are those are kind of my comments I guess if you have any questions for me specifically as a as a land owner and someone that i' be you know I'm interested in this A3 District because um we've we actually own 20 acres of that 120 that's actually butts right up against sewer and water for the city of Dayton and so that goes all the way down into the historic village and I've explored the possibility of you know okay well let's just extend the sewer in water and there's 100 house capacity or 120 house capacity still in that sewer why not you know and I could do a sewer development there but you know I have a lot of conversations with Dennis and others on the council and you know I know the desire is to keep the city more rule and so as you look at this A3 District I mean I think anything bigger than a 2 to 3 acre lot would become pretty financially um burdensome for the land owner to put in a road and you're probably going to have to pull power and you're probably going to have to pull gas I mean most of the roads have natural gas on them and by the time you pull gas and power and put in a road you know you're probably talking a half a million bucks or more and so you know it's at that point you're like why do it I'll just wait for the sewer you know because I I can sell my lots for a lot more and I can put I can put 50 houses on the same place I'm going to put seven you know so I've been telling Council this and Planning Commission and not that it's right or wrong but that that's going to be a dilemma that even if we allow this is that there's a feasibility issue involved it's not unfortunately it doesn't make your land much more valuable than Farmland at those densities it just is what it is and I mean obviously the smaller the lot size more feasible it gets but then you know at what point do you potentially you know defeat the the rural component of it people that want a little larger Lots you know is a I mean you know a half acre lot's a lot bigger than a third acre lot that you're getting in a lenar development but you know uh yeah in corkrin the large acre lots that are average aing I think they're they average 10 but they sell for the the land sells Farmland meaning 20 30,000 an acre yeah it doesn't I mean so you've got to you got to be ultra wealthy to buy a 10 acre lot for $30,000 an acre and then put a home on it you know so cuz you're you're going to be into a million dollars yes you are you're into multiple millions of dollars you know depends on the size of your home but yes yeah unless you want put a post feed stamp on 10 AC you know that you've paid yeah you know three well your mortgage company won't let you do that your house can't be worthless than the land is yeah I tried so legitimately anyway those are my comments I'm glad to answer any questions if you have thank you okay yeah thank you thank you thank you anyone else want to provide any feedback all right then we will close the public hearing um question I'm going to put Hayden on the spot on a two acre lot how what can you have for Animals let's see well he's looking into that have you guys given thought to and if you haven't let's talk about the boundary when they're done yeah I so in egg districts in rural estate and which is what kind of the breakdown starts with in terms of animal units is it starts with the zoning classification and then it goes into the acreage so if you have a 1 acre R1 lot that's going to have different animal unit allowances than if you have a um something in the A2 or the re that is of similar size um but lots greater than 990,000 Square ft which I believe is right around two acres two um just over two is uh you're allowed between well this goes between two and five acres is four animal units so that would be four horses or I think in the egg districts one animal unit is equivalent to 25 chickens so that's just a little bit of context in terms of animal units so you'd have 200 chickens on two acres chck 100 100 chickens so well and I I don't have it in front of me I know the it's not the higher number it's the lower number so I'm at 17.7 I'm at the 15 acre limit I have to hit 20 or to go to the next limit so it's not so you can have 15 horses no I well I think it's yes I could but I couldn't even though I have 17 Acres I can't have 17 horses like other cities it is by the acre we have this like little band so I'm stuck at the 15 limit even though if you were going to round it it would round to 20 so sure but and there's different you know people have different Hobbies so it's much different if you have horses as a hobby versus if you're growing uh vegetables oh absolutely yeah well and ducks and chickens are put together as the same thing but they are not the same in terms of of what they do to the land and pigs are extremely destructive to land but we put them in the same category as horses and cows which is nonsensical so um yeah our our rules are stupid and should be fixed but that's for a different time well then even at that we'll just really the horse limit is how much money you want to pay for a yeah that's it the amount of land is almost irrelevant kind of yeah but um so but boundary was that the next question you got what you need yep so lot size what I'm hearing is start with a say acre and a half or two and and then have consideration of um what is needed we can try to define a little bit better of of how much land is needed uh for Hobby Farms based on the hobby we can find some examples yeah just for clarity I mean maybe this is just my opinion but one and a half to two was the buildable but buildable yeah three to maybe five was the minimum gross mhm well and I think yes I mean that's kind of that's where my head's at right now I'm not like sent in to him by any means but I also think I think that's good feedback though to give the console so they can see if they've got no but I think one of the things that has to be in the back of our heads because I think this this ultimately make some decisions is are we doing this for people who own 120 acres and want to develop or are we doing this for the person who owns 40 acres and has three kids in AC but I mean like is this for I know it's for both but like what will work well for an individual who has a like 20 acres and wants to split it between them and their children is not necessarily what's going to work for someone with 120 acres and wants to put a development like that's a completely different scenario and so I'm not I'm not if we can find a solution that makes everybody happy obviously I would prefer that right but like if we have to lean one way or the other what's the more important way to lean and I I have my personal preference at this time which would be for like the average everyday person but um I don't know enough about that part of that is the boundary right like if you're leading right into the boundary I know I'm leading right into the boundary discussion because depending on where the boundary is we'll kind of depend on because if most of the land is one person then I guess let's favor the one person who owns most of the land in that boundary area but if we're widening in the Bounder area and it includes a lot of smaller 20 you know like 20 acre Parcels that has maybe a little bit more they don't they're not going to care so much if we limit it cuz there's not that many options to average out to 10 within when you only got 20 to work with so boundary area all of Dayton but I don't think that's going to work you know the hardest part about the boundary area is in everyone's going to have feelings when their beautiful backyard changes period yep it just it is what it is I get it right and I don't care if you're on five or 10 acres or whenever changes and you looked at something that was open whether it's a 3 Acre lot orer lot there's someone else there I get it and so when you think about the boundaries I'm trying to think about what are the unintended consequences that might come out of this I mean I think there's a lot of positives but what are we missing anything with the unintended consequences and so far I haven't really thought of any but I want to say that out there so people like Dennis Sarah Paul we all started thinking about that staff because you know we went through that with the master plan of the end can any consequences and I'd rather avoid that again would someone who's not in the boundary be able to request it like from like could or is it no it has to be in this boundary and that's it the so the easy answer is if it's adjacent to the boundary it it you can make the argument that it should be added but the general intent is you make make a decision and stick with it but that gets into the unintended consequences of there's going to be things that happen that we can't predict today and with the boundary versus spot zoning why aren't we just spot zoning the 20 acre Parcels within a boundary so we still need to maybe a boundary yep but why aren't we just SP spot zoning because at some point in time we're going to have to inform all the property owners that hey there's zoning changes and they're going to have questions and so if you're if they don't qualify mhm um just leave them out yeah just leave them out of the Arizone them if they don't qualify well what about the people who are currently non-conforming but would become conforming if they if they qualify meaning they have 20 acres but like say they can't split their property if that's a 10 acre average if you're but if you're on 10 right now you're technically and if if you have one house and a 10 acre thing you're not considered conforming right you're non I'm not following you you could never split your property to begin with so when cuz that's what really this is about is splitting your property but I guess sometimes people have come to us and they're I guess so maybe a question maybe the way I want to say this is I have some neighbors who um have horses and everything else and they're oh the gis map is down for me I don't know if it's up for you um but they are try to refresh they're less than 20 um and so sometimes some of the rules we talk about for egg don't really apply to them because they're not conforming to egg but yet they're zoned egg and so they're always like well so what am I right cuz I'm not egg cuz in this regards I don't follow your rules but I'm zoned egg so and even we ran into that with when we were building and asking questions they kept trying to throw restrictions on me that I'd be like but no you I'm zoned egg like I appreciate that I'm not on 40 acres but my zoning is A1 um so my question is what about those people who are on 10 acre lots who are currently zoned A1 and are a little bit weird and when they call to have questions the city's like we're not quite sure what to do with you would they have the option to like turn into this A3 and are we I don't know if there'd be any advantage because nothing's going to be different other than an A3 you can split your lot right nothing will be different meaning in A1 you'd probably want to stay A1 if you're on 10 acres because you're going to have more flexible to put up a barn versus if you were in re maybe you know you're going to have more flexibility so I don't yeah so having a small lot that still Z A1 it's going to have an effect on how big of a yeah pole barn you can build or or horses or whatever else setbacks we don't consider like say somebody today I don't know if we have example but if there's a 5 acre A1 lot they're not nonconforming the lot it's well the lot itself is non-conforming so there's two different things there's a lot and then there's the structures the structures aren't applicable to that so you know if your set if you have a if your setback is too small then it's a non-conforming setback um yes but yeah if you have a 5 acre lot where the size is 40 acres you can't subdivide to be less than and yeah there may be restrictions we've seen that on uh Elm Creek Parkway or uh not Elm Creek Elm Creek Road yeah Elm Creek Road where yeah the A1 was he couldn't put a house up um but the R1 let him um and we're not talking about rezoning this whole area are we we're talking about making it available uh well we're talking about creating an A3 District so a new A3 District yeah correct me if I'm wrong but so that's unfortunately our job is to Zone properties and so if we create a new A3 District it seems like you kind of got to apply at the properties otherwise why are we creating it I mean maybe people come to us right that would be I'll just say that on being on a Planning Commission or council member always having to decide whether you're allowed or not allowed and in some cases it makes sense and some it doesn't and here you are making that judgment it's not a place I want to be in to be honest I feel because I feel both sides of it but some cases are going to be more applicable than others and so that's why I personally think you got to Zone it otherwise it's it's just a burden on everyone making these decisions that and we're even on beautiful properties that are being split there's going to be people that don't want their view to change I we're going it's just it is what it is well I mean if we're going to be doing that we got to make sure that the A3 is not more restrictive in any fashion or we're going to have a taking agreed okay as far when you get into land uses and setbacks and and yeah this is a whole other conversation that be you months from now I guess my thought is it's going to be as similar to the A1 or A2 District as we can make it with the exception that you can now split your y property Y where you C in the other ones okay so we're we're still on boundaries so and I'm not saying we need to make that decision but I think that concept needs to be brought up about are we spot zoning within the boundary are we blanketing the whole thing I think it's better to spot Zone with whatever we decide how we're going to implement this with 10 acre average or whatever it is that's going to dictate cuz if you don't qualify I I don't see the point of are you wanting a spot Zone within the entire city or within a specific I I think the entire city we we would struggle pitching this plan in a way that we got everything figured out to the Met ccil I'd rather prefer to do it where we might happen like the the area we're in is perfect but I'm not other people have other areas and want to bring it up that's fine but I think we're just going to be it's going to make the battle tougher sure so the area that that we're suggest in in Northwest Dayton is probably the most practical because of topography and because of where it is um at the end of our sewer line Y um the only I looked at the boundary and what went through my brain is how is Pioneer Parkway going to eventually get to where Dayton Parkway comes up and how does that fit so basically there's the doll there's a little bit of dmer property I believe that you left out of the area yep and which would be immediately to the west of the future Dayton Parkway so the question becomes is should that area be part of this too to have a transition or do we want to keep that yep that's a good question you have a suggestion so and I I wish I could draw in here but so generally Dayton Parkway is going to come up from Zanzibar and then come over up here some from point A to point B however that alignment is right um so what you're bringing up is the west side of the parkway should that be within included in the A3 District or excluded were you talking about Pioneer Parkway or Dayton Parkway both so Pioneer Parkway is going to run into Dayton Parkway so yeah obviously at that point we don't really know we no one's decided what's going to happen the Pioneer Parkway after that but if we turn this into A3 and development happens I think that the Market's going to tell us what happens to the Pioneer Parkway people choose to sub I mean we might turn it into A3 and no one subdivides it for all we know but that's what the the overall planning concept that's what I want to make sure we take into consideration is how Pioneer Parkways going to tie into there and what if anything is the future to the west of there of how to connect everything yeah okay and when you know even when you look at the dalheimer parcels that are just to the west of the future date and Parkway you know I I kind of see a logic that you know what if they wanted to include them I'd be okay with that included in the A3 yeah but that would probably be the defining point of saying all right East of that we shun and is there much to the east to that I mean he has you're talking about Randy um yeah he well there's a lot of private property owns to the east of it and then Randy has a lot more land to yeah he's got it all the way but he has to the west of those it's between 40 and between a 40 and 80 acre uh strip and you know if the city would really like to see some of the this development occur the reality is we probably need to include some and I don't know if Randy has any interest in it or not but we need to include some of these larger egg PES if you actually want to see it happen because it's going to be hard to happen if we just start picking um 20 acre Parcels a lot of people just don't want to subdivide it they like their backyards and privacy or they're subdivided for family yeah or they're subdividing for family we yeah we've seen a few of those H that couldn't because of that well and that's where like I said that's I think we have to Define what's our what's our priority is it so that individual private land owners can more easily subdivide for family purposes or is it so people can develop like that's I don't want to I don't want to be in that category I just want to look at it as property and let the properties figure it out because I I I I get your point sir yeah but it it it gets too emotional and then it's hard decisions well then you got to make everyone a pey or every want to conditionally use there some weird right yeah um okay I'm going to make it simple the South Boundary so right now it's drawn at North Diamond Lake Road is that good or do you want to go farther south I think we should go all the way to South Diamond Lake Road that's very person that's very well there's a lot of property on the west side of damond Lake that's going to be clunky to I was going to say like in particular on the west side of dond Lake yeah I would let it yeah I think it should be included or yeah I mean unless yeah I mean people have explored connecting to Rogers utilities there correct yes and what is always the answer been from us or Rogers or why is it want Dayton utilities not Rogers utilities yeah if yeah then if that's the case yeah I would we're going to have a hard time getting across that yeah I mean yeah okay so what I'm hearing is follow uh Diamond Lake down to the South Diamond Lake Road yep do you bring it over to Zanzibar then I don't know if I'd bring it to Zanzibar include those properties in the east side of the lake I don't know I I don't know how a lot of wetlands there yeah actually now that I zoom in there are yeah okay so it's growing I think we should consider like everyone mentioned dult Diamond like a road all the way over to Zanzibar and as a once we understand more what we're doing that's what we should be looking at too is like Paul brought up these are there's a lot of wetlands and a lot of weird parcels and to me those are the parcels that are well suited for this in the first place okay so you're saying South Diamond Lake Road and then Zanzibar and then going wherever this connection is going to be here yeah so all of this area yeah okay um other questions that we can do research on John the south from what I remember the the leg coming up from the the Interceptor from the south I doesn't that terminate right around South Diamond also so that whole area is kind of at the end of AIP that'd be a Jason quisberg question so I think that would be a good point of having the pipe plan in front of us when we con if we're going to do this is pick picking that concrete area yeah was thinking since our two engineer uh Commissioners were off I told Jason we probably would have any engineering questions yeah I'm pretty sure that's where it ends but because I know you know one of the property owners on there was was looking at this exact same thing they were looking at doing this um I don't know you know what Lane's thoughts are or I guess it's not he in it's he in ra about it but anyways there's a lot of property in there too that my guess is it's not going to get piped but yeah I guess the other staff for qu or other question for staff is just to help my mind because I don't want to put the city in a situation where we have to fight them at counil is and I know I think Dennis not picking any but I know Dennis would be just fine with something less than 10 acres on average the way it sounds like but I just want to know if I'm going to recommend something to counil is I don't want to put us in a situation where we're going to be fighting litigation so to get some input and I I get it it's always a back and forth of met cil's gray and and we can't interpret it but I just don't want to be in that situation sure I can ask our met council rep to attend these conversations I can tell you what the answer is going to be from the rep I I want to see what the law says um and I did talk to Zach about that today I think our attorney's going to look at it and see what lever they have yeah because they're going to come in and say no M that's going to make me more comfortable with the recommendation making sure that we're not getting oursel in a situation where we got to fight the Met Cil because we got enough things to pay for in il legal battle anyway anything else no all right if you think of something let me know but so again I guess the thought is we'll have the a similar discussion in January hopefully we'll have more Commissioners um I'll have new maps that are showing kind of a a I'll say draft District boundary you know we can look at the number of lots that are um 20 acres or larger that that could be subdividable uh I have conversation with our building official as far as uh educating us on uh septic systems the difference between septic on Sand versus clay and I'm assuming most of this area is going to be clay but there's River bottoms too I Don't Know Jack you're the resident expert I go from Sugar Sand I got 20 acres of Sugar Sand to Clay okay so there's both yeah and it seems like the the way they do Prest nowadays everybody gets a mound anyways MH yeah so I don't know okay I I think we had a good conversation we've got a good start on okay all right then we are moving on to item number 8 B recommendation of approval for or actually 8 a recommendation of approval of the Cannabis ordinance all right thank you Mr chair members of the Planning Commission um item that we uh briefly discussed in September um this uh ordinance amendment in front of you is to related to including cannabis use uh businesses uh within the zoning ordinance uh just a couple background notes uh in 2023 Minnesota Legislature legalized adult use cannabis Statewide uh the state created 16 classifications that are listed on the next slide and then uh also in your packet uh for cannabis related businesses to obtain uh prior to beginning operation um the state did uh give local um Authority related to zoning um providing them the opportunity to regulate businesses in their communi specific to time place and manner um and uh just a note that the state requires that all licenses be allowed within uh a local jurisdiction in some capacity so cities are not allowed to outright prohibit any of the state identified licenses so here is uh you can see the top part is a list of uh the licenses that uh will be um obtained through the state from uh business owners and just a recap on the process uh the state will receive an application for a cannabis business license a review the application against Provisions established by State Statute uh and regulations adopted by the office of cannabis management uh one once the application is received the state will notify the local Authority regarding the application which then the city would have 30 days to respond related to what is required excuse me for um local approval uh whether that be a conditional use permit or something like that and then design requirements and standards for building operation and overall site design um in uh August 2024 the city council passed moratorium prohibiting cannabis businesses uh within the city until January 1st 2025 to provide time for these required ordance amendments to be in place um I will just note that a couple of the updates recently from the office of cannabis management have further prolonged um what looks to be like uh instead of January 1st rolling out licensing process uh it doesn't look like that they will be ready at that point um so there will be a little bit more uh room before we start seeing these businesses up and operating in town um City staff discussed this ordinance with you guys in September as I mentioned before and Incorporated their recommendations for review and consideration um of adopting them in November which was uh tabled and uh Ren noticed uh in the paper um just a brief touch on uh the recommendations and uh kind of the uh revised ordinance moving forward Uh current land use provisions in the draft ordinance reflect where these types of uses would normally be allowed um if they weren't considered a cannabis use so uh cannabis manufacturing and things of the like would be allowed where manufacturing businesses would be normally um I'll just note that the Planning Commission when this was uh previously discussed recommended that retail locations obtain a conditional use permit prior to operation uh once review has been conducted on one or more of these uh locations uh the ordinance can be amend amended to allow retail locations as permitted similar to what you'd see with uh tobacco stores and uh Liquor Stores um with the opportunity to further incorporate um those consistent conditions that we would see under those cups into the um that would be found in the initial review um the next uh section basically lists the maximum allowed um buffer requirements that uh the state allowed local uh authority to set uh and I'll just note that uh at the discussion of the city council in November they expressed interest in treating buffers for these businesses the same as uh liquor license buffers uh which is uh 100 ft from a school uh the additional buffer in the liquor store section is 100 ft from a religious institution State Statute does not allow for uh the local jurisdiction to set a buffer against these religious institutions related to cannabis retail um I think if everybody's well aware that there's one School location in town um which is here and uh completely surrounded by residentials so the buffer requirements is not going to be as uh required an in-depth review as some other uh cities that have been uh incorporating larger buffer areas uh and then home occupations this was discussed as well at the city council level uh it was in the interest of the city council to not allow these um as home occupations where as uh unless it is uh considered an agriculture A1 for outdoor cultivation you wouldn't be able to um manufacture cannabis or low potency hemp derived Edibles um in your garage type of thing um and that would be vetted out through the opportunity of having to First obtain a license through the state they reach out to the city and say we do not allow these in residential districts that are as home occupations and they would not be able to obtain a state license in the packet as well this was basically just for reference to kind of clear up the long uh ordinance amendment that lays out where these things would be allowed uh in this use table um staff ultimately recommends a approval of this ordinance Amendment uh as it is required for local Provisions to be established prior to 2025 um it's anticipated that the city council would consider this at their January 14th um meeting for official adoption um and then just a note as well any changes made by the ocm following the beginning of 2025 will be reviewed against this ordinance and any necessary changes will be brought back to you promptly um for your consideration um I think the one outstanding question that I would have for the attending uh Commissioners is regarding that conditional use process for retail locations I know that there was some back and forth between what we heard from the Planning Commission in that uh a conditional use permeter would be I guess uh appropriate at this point in the early stages uh whereas the city council had recommended that we would just follow what uh where items like tobacco shops and liquor stores are allowed if they're permitted in that District cannabis uh retail would be permitted in those districts and if they're conditional the same goes um so that would be the one outstanding question that I would have just for clarification before this goes to the council I'm happy to answer questions here thank you um I'd be completely fine with no cup for retail so if it's just retail sale of cannabis and a retail location yeah we don't need a cup okay and would that go for guidelines of tobacco following the same guidelines of tobacco alcohol so like in uh I think Bolam Lane the GMU 4 district for example I think a liquor store requires a conditional use permit would you be okay with mimicking that for that area as if there's a conditional use permit required I think mimicking the code is the most straightforward way to do it we need to adjust code for different areas yeah and if that is the consensus and uh we can include that in amendment in um not necessarily an amendment to the ordinance but uh just a a note within that motion that would be made for approval for this item uh we can certainly make that correction uh for the council in January so they would review what you guys would recommend so let good yeah it was a long packet to read on this it's a lot it's a lot of information and I halfway through it I was like what am I doing still reading this this is the shortest packet we've had in months it is yeah yeah well maybe it's just reading ordinances that this I mean I think this table yeah it helped provides a lot of yeah I don't have any further discussion you guys no I mean like I said I think this table really lays it out clearly and the uses and where it's where it's allowed and I think I'm in alignment with what was uh established here I mean I fully support not having it as an inhome operation yeah yeah let them just do it illegally yeah exactly they going to do it anyway yeah and obviously there are Provisions related to personal use and things like that related to a commercial operations so yeah thanks for coming in thank you um with that said I'm open so if everyone assuming everyone's in agreement about the cup we just need a motion with an amendment to include or to match have retail not have a cup yeah I think that uh if you made a motion to as um with the correction as directed by the commission uh we've got our marching orders and understand what you mean by that and this is still a public hearing yeah right I need to open it then y yes I was waiting for everyone to leave just uh at 8:53 I'm going to open the public hearing on this I'll just check and make sure this is more standard to our meetings you know a year ago we have no one in attendance on nobody wants to at 853 I'm going to close the public hearing thank you John I'll make a motion to approve the ordinance with the amendment that we discussed regarding retail sales second all those in favor I all those opposed motion carries 30 Z thank you thank you moving on to Item B in public hearings recommendation of approval of ordinance for the signage just got to make a quick note here okay big thank you um it's easier to tell a story with this so uh in 2023 we we had a number of complaints about the cluttered intersection intersections that were cluttered with temporary signs so temporary signs is things you just stick in the ground um staff did some research and found that we do not prohibit signs anyone from from sticking a sign in the RightWay was brought to the council and new ordinance was adopted that prohibited signs in the RightWay um from that point uh the staff started picking up signs that were in violation of the ordinance which then angered many residents made many residents happy and other ones angry um once we got into the election season it was a little bit more anger and less happy people and the direction from the council was let's let's just stop this and then we'll address it after the election so now it's after the election um to try to simplify this a little bit is should temporary signs be allowed in the RightWay and and I want to be specific this a city RightWay henin County does not allow it in County RightWay like that won't change I think signs keyword in RightWay in right away so you could have it granted let's just on your property on your property but not in the RightWay right I think the concern is it's hard to know where that right of way is yes and that's where I mean from personal experience I was putting up my signs and I was like I have to stay out the right of way and I was like and where is that like how would I so you have this adjustment 10t from the edge of roadways which which could be in or out of the RightWay but for Simplicity it's easy to figure out out where 10 ft is from the road that I could work with I would have no ambiguity on where is 10t from the roadway but the out of the right of way when the right of way is not consistent I think that's the bigger issue even if the RightWay if the right of way was consistent I could look that up and no but the right of way is wildly inconsistent and there's no markings so I think that's where like I'm kind of with the how was I supposed to know that this was in the right of way here when a corner down it's not like that doesn't make any sense so I I I started to understand more why people were getting mad but I also hate all that clutter right particularly around like the intersections where it's hard to see and know what's going on um so I think if we can modify it to specify edge of roadways and with the understanding that in some cases it may wind up in the right of way but part of my question is what it like how often if we said 10 F feet from the edge of roadway how often would that actually be encroaching on the city's right of way depends on the RightWay so what's the benefit of 5T 10 feet 15 feet like a sign's a sign it looks like junk yep are you saying that my signs looked like junk I say in general abundance of signage on a road that's not necessary is clutter and is not necessary I think during elections I I do feel it's different right I mean that's just part of that process it's part of getting your name out there all that right so I mean it's it's very challenging to like how do you decide what's right and what's wrong and um I'm just anti- right like I just I wish people like I don't think pray at homes like people use their phone to find where they're going and if you're going to go to pray at homes you're probably looking on your phone where the house is like you don't need 30 signs pointing you to the house but I also get it it's just part of our culture and it's going to happen but I just don't know like what are we gaining by saying 10 feet back as opposed to just we let signs happen because again it's still something with so you're saying that you might be okay with just letting them happen like going back the old way if we're going to let signs be there why does it matter if they're two feet off the road or 10 feet off the road it's still CL that Paul would you go in the direction of not allowing any temporary signs be tempted to but like it's different than election season yeah but it's also then it's like the grad parties and the birthday parties and the garage sales garage sales and all that like that's part of like the community too and like but we are allowed to distinguish between commercial and non-commercial It's Tricky but you can do it yeah so so because I think there's no question a grad party is not commercial is a garage still commercial that's that's where the question comes like so I don't think it is I don't think I wouldn't think it is either I mean they did mention specifically that that it C you C you are allowed to restrict commercial signage more than non-commercial you are absolutely allowed to do that it gets tricky in how you define commercial because of things like garage sales it's very clear a graduation party or a birthday party is not commercial or lost dog yes absolutely not commercial no question there what about a garage sale what about a bake sale what if you were doing a car wash fundraiser like I don't put it in the RightWay and you're fine yeah that I mean it's is it a a legal business do is it an LLC is it like you know is it a company when we're enforcing we're not going to look no you're not no yeah but I think I think the what Sarah brought up I think matches the intent of why we had a sign ordinance in the first place meaning we wanted to get rid of all the commercial signs the sprinkling blow your system out the housing you name it sell your house for cheap We Buy Ugly Houses and you're going to be picking them up a lot because even if we pass an ordinance they still going to exist yeah and I don't know if you can even find them to make it stop but but that's when you'd also get into maybe legal battles like if we passed an ordinance with commercial sure labeled out but never just kept picking up signs and left the garage sale signs and graduation signs that disappeared anyway it probably would solve the problem if we're not creating something that is too hard to enforce for you guys but if we're not going me you know what I mean if we're not going to find the commercial businesses they're they're just going to keep putting them out and we're just going to keep picking them up well at a certain point it's a waste of the city's money yeah to to what to have to go pick up signs we're going to have to pick them up regardless unless we just leave them well that's but like if it sounded it sounded like what was happening was they learned and by they I mean like the some of these commercial everybody that put them on on Friday afternoon put them on Friday after like at a certain time and then they'll be there all weekend and then pick you know and then they're and like so then it just was this weird silly game and so it took we paid people money to go take down the signs of people and that I think that's why the residents got mad because the residents didn't know that game right like your average residents who was putting up a sign for a graduation party or garage sale didn't know to play the game and wait till later on Friday to do it they just put it up at a regular time then their sign got taken down and then a few hours later they see the jerks go up and put their home like the home and wait a minute how come my garage sale got taken down from that corner and now this you know the brunette Holmes sign is up like what the heck CU they that and because they don't know to play this silly game so do our communities neighboring communities have anything like this like does m Grover Champlain have any kind of ordinance saying commercial kind me I see what you sent to your JN I mean this is good stuff on the content neutral just understanding where you're coming from I just trying to understand is this is this what like Paul is saying is this what other cities do too sure I think it's actually not that hard to distinguish whether it's a commercial sign or not right it's like if if it's a business you're trying to get people to pay you for a service that's it's commercial that you're that you're yeah you're trying to make money on like I a garage sale no like that's a one-time event it's not a business right you're not reporting income to the IRS no exactly so I I don't think it'd be that bad and if there's any great area just leave the sign maybe right like if you're going to pick signs up but are we ever going to win the battle against the housing developments and the sprinkler people and all that by going and taking signs and is it worth the battle like we could just go pick them up without an ordinance right if they're on your property if they're in the RightWay or if they're on your property without your permission right you could do that yeah that's what I'm saying like if they're in the right of way you know I guess that'd be a question too do other cities spend a lot of effort picking up signs I don't know at what point do they just give up right well and it's part of it the issue of where we're at in our growth right now right because once like part of it is we've got so many new developments and everyone's trying to stand out from the other new development and half the time it's the same developer trying to distinguish their five developments it's all the services that go with a new home the Landscaping the spring CL it's all the same people that are trying to capture that business but like once it's established it doesn't seem like it not that it's not there but it's not I think we're in this unique position where we're having an a much bigger influx than I think a lot of our local Comm like our surrounding communities are dealing with and you go further out they don't have the problem for the opposite reason no one's building anything I think part of our why it seems so prolific here is because of where we're at at that stage and because it is because we are developing around the entire edge of our community it doesn't matter which way you come in there there's signs like right like other communities go from One Direction so if you just didn't go in that way you don't even know it's a problem but there's literally no way in or out of Dayton without running into these signs so it's more prevalent yeah I I haven't seen it for a while but when pleasy pharmacist was being developed they had a massive balloon up weather balloon 200 feet in the air whatever like I could see it from my yard just like that's the kind of thing that drives me nuts because it's got such a massive visual impact as opposed to a sign that you're just driving past in the road right yeah I don't know I mean like I said I mean I I don't like Signs I'd rather just get rid of them but I don't think we from a resident standpoint we can't say you can't put up your lost dog sign and you can't put up your garage sell sign and you're you know that that's the stuff like we have to allow that stuff because it's just part of the community yeah so then it's just a matter of do we want the Battle of trying to fight the commercial SS or is it a question I would have is how much actual staff time is going to that that could be going to other more useful things sure I um it depends on the type of sign so you know pulling a temporary sign doesn't you know that's that's a minute to get out of the truck pull it and throw it in the back and get back in some of the signs that we were that we were pulling were uh cemented into the ground kidding seriously you didn't have a chainsaw but doesn't that like break other rules to cement a sign into the right of way yes okay so those because we don't allow signs in the RightWay but I mean when you remove signs did you ever reach out to the people that put the signs out ever um the the real developers yes but the smaller signs no what was the General feedback you get from them I didn't know that was a rule and then the sign was still up after you told was a rule eventually they were put up there were some so there there's I'm going to say there's different types of temporary signs that were problematic so you've got the simple ones and you know those they're simple you have the ones that are are um I'm going to call the flag so you've got a large flag pole um you can see them in Pioneer Parkway they're they're up again so those took effort uh they were cemented into so that they didn't kept falling over right I'm assuming um they're back again I don't believe that are cemented in um then we have a plywood so we allow uh 32 square ft so for one sheet of plywood for developments um as you drive around there's a lot of signs that are two sheets of plywood um they also have to be I'm going to say the on premise signs for development we've had a few projects where same developer but they'll leave the sign they'll leave the structure and then just change the messaging and you so we had River Hills that was advertised on U I think is Ion Gardens or something like that yeah because I think Paul's message is clear that if and Nick even brought this up is it's a losing battle so unless we're communicating to them and they're going to stop it seems like we're just going to be putting a lot of time to this and we're committing resources to it sure we so I mean we're talking about science today um you know speeding is similar uh we're at some point we're going to talk about car uh parking on grass so I mean zoning enforcement is always a losing battle um you know whether how no matter how lean your rules are right the question becomes how much do we want to enforce it which means do we want the ordinance I mean I I guess can we have the ordinance to say no commercial signage and right away and then we have the ability to enforce it if it's egregious and just needs to be add I me that's already a lot of our ordinances are already only complaint based yeah yes signs were more proactive signs were proactive I was just going to say that Mr chair members of the commission I'll just note for reference I did get a chance to pull up the Maple Grove and Champlain ordinances um Champlain is more strict where they doesn't seem like they would allow any right of way signage Maple Grove has a little bit more leniency in that where it allows rumage sale signs to be up for a certain amount of time like I think it's 120 or 180 hours in a week I think it was 120 hours in total for the span of the sale and then uh the other one that they note as well are residential new development properties like the Parade of Homes um are allowed only between Friday and Monday so that's when they can go up and then they have to come down now I haven't had an opportunity to reach out to these to see how much time is being spent on enforcing these sections of or if they follow the rules I mean I think that's what we would be good to know instead of you know what we did I think did did you they actually specify the content and Maple Grove does yes we've been told that that was illegal okay yeah because I that you could not specify which signs let's see here they have a bigger checkbook so I was gonna say or they don't care they have a bigger checkbook so the section of the code that relates to placement of signs in the right of way or public land is only governmental signs signs for a rumage sale posted no more than 120 hours in an any 8-day period and signs advertising the sale of real estate between the hours of 6 p.m. Friday to 6: a.m. Monday may be erected or placed within the right of way or easement that's that's definitely not in content neut yeah but I think it's very specific though because me let's face it developers don't want to be on the bad side of a city they're going to comply if you reach out to them and they I mean they're going to they're going to be back for the next approval the next approval and so I'm sure it worked in Maple Grove and there I'm sure there's a few signs that stay out longer than they should sure but to me that seems like a better route than what we did and when we're talking about the large development sign in you know let's say it's a dozen signs it's probably more than that but um let's say it's a dozen signs and then we have a hundred or a thousand small temporary signs so like what is the problem that we're trying to solve I think the small temporary signs that are literally a foot off the road is that we should just go around and pick them up period every now and then and that's that simple a lot of the like a garage sale sign doesn't get no one sticks it like the sprinkler guy and all these advertising I mean they're literally on the curb sure whoever gets out of the car see it faster yeah yeah or easier well it's easier to put like they don't really care either they're coming in they're jumping out of their truck they're putting it up and they don't even care if that sign gets taken or if it's there three years from now they don't even know half the time yeah they don't track it I mean it's to me the problem we're trying to solve we also have a big city I mean it's got to take a couple hours for somebody to drive around the city and that's what I'm saying like I'm not sure how much money we actually wind up dedicating to that when um I don't know I just it is the the complaints I get are specifically the developer signs yeah it's not the larger ones it's well or those are a problem but it's line any given weekend you can go to the the Pine View Pine View and there's 20 23 24 science right we just concrete that entire thing then they can't the science they'll move it to I don't know I I I agree I mean if we can that whole circle's lined with science oh we can special we can spe specify there we go commercial versus non-commercial that we can do we are allowed to do that to specify that just to be clear John I mean it's just a leue of City saying it so it's not like it's a law but they're suggesting not to do that but I'm with Sarah that I think it makes sense and they're not going to contest us I just don't think that's going to get us in trouble well I mean it says right here commercial speech versus not like you're allowed but they say again they they basically say to avoid challenges when adopting signor J should not favor commercial speech or we're not not saying we have to follow that no we're not suggest we're we're not favoring commercial speech well we are favoring non-commercial speech that's fine there's no issue there the issue is when you favor commercial speech and when you let the developers put signs up but you don't let someone put their lost dog sign up that's what that reads to me yeah you can't favor commercial commercial speech you can't say developers go ahead put your sign I think it's one over the others the way I read it but not not saying that that I don't want to agree with you all well all the all the examples they give are you can't let businesses put signs up and then tell your residents they can't put their own signs up it's the freedom of speech of individuals that need to be protected not freedom of speech of businesses yeah they don't that's what I think that's yes cuz specifically right after that courts treat commercial speech differently than non-commercial speech and do not afford it the same level of protection it's literally the next line down commercial speech enjoys some first man protection but not as much as non-commercial speech it's the non-commercial speech we have to be careful of we can say no commercial signs in the right of way period end of story and then leave it to the city to do like every other ordinance and only enforce it if there's major complaints and that's why I think if we're going to write an ordinance it can be specific like Maple Groves the realitors because we can reach out to them and say hey you're in violation of the ordinance and maybe their superial eventually and it won't be an ongoing issue all the time you can't reach out to anyone with the lawn sprinkler and sign and have any success probably you call that number and they're not going to care right but at least the ordinance whatever ordinance we draft we should have something that is we can actually enforce and feel like you know we can reach out to people and say hey you're in violation and try to clean it up so if we say no commercial signage in the right away what are these developers going to do to still put their signs get it out of the right away well I think they they're still going to put them up there and take the chance that the city will remove them yeah they'll put them up Saturday morning Friday night yeah late Friday early Saturday morning they're going to put them up yeah and their pockets are deep enough they don't care if they get taken her back down again well keep in mind that the signs going up though are realtors usually the lards of the world they're hiring um well maybe the Lars have a lot of the in-host people but um for example up in Riverwalk that is not the developer they hire a separate real estate firm to Market their homes so it's a bigger hit to their so they might be more willing to play yeah they're used to the game because Maple Grove isn't the only city I'm sure that has that arance so if you're not in the RightWay then you're either on public property orivate you got permission on private yeah if you can find people to give them permission right right or you put them in someone's yard anyway and they just take them down yeah which is what I do so in general I think the no commercial in the RightWay is a way to go okay um but they would be allowed outside of the RightWay yeah and if you want to make an exception for the Realtors to put signs up on weekends I think that's oh sure okay yeah we could acknowledge that would make sense to me because then it's we're not enforcing it I mean it is what it is I guess it's really the flood of Builder yeah sence it's not I don't know that realist you know realator signs are a big deal well when you say a builder sign I mean I get their marketing their sub division a little bit but really it's the it's a realtor sign when I think when Maple Grove says realer sign they're talking about those subdivision signs it could I think it's the same thing um I don't think it is I don't know all I know is I see I'm not I'm not talking the big braver he sign I'm talking the little signs you'll see it tomorrow in the next day yeah just come by my house I have a pile in my basement um put inside was that John sorry size limits for temporary signs 32 ft seems like a lot that's big I mean the little signs the typical signs are what what what are they two to four I would say two to four like a yard sign yeah two to four feet even seems big I'm thinking like the sprinkler guy signs like the Pine View and and the 129 the little roundabout gets piled full it's all the little rectangles that are what maybe 16 by 18 16 by 20 yeah I want to say 18 by 24 could be yeah from the political like the sign options I had I think that was the smallest size I could buy so if you're doing a temporary sign like for a garage sale anything like that they're likely always the sign okay so I guess my question is do you want to put a limited on the size so like can I put a for a garage sale sign that's 3 2 ft I'd like if you're going to put a lemon on it I want it to be smaller than 32t for private signs so I would say 2x4 is 8 square F feet that's pretty big that's still big but wasn't this intended John for signs that are on um so the language here is more um you know use a uh Dean's pumpkins as an example of um I got to read this it's a commercial sign yes so allowing right away key yes they can have it there they just have to ask have the property owner's permission yeah so the way that's this is re read so uh or intended like on a corner lot you could have two sheets of plywood as signs they cannot um be more than 4 feet tall so you horizontal it's similar to a fence but they're on the property in question right on the property line not in the right way right so yeah so that I think that was meant sheet app plywood but yeah it wasn't like you'd have a sheet app plywood on on the Redway on on the roundabout or yeah I just a little bit of context that I wanted to provide I mean ideally for the way that I see it the larger the sign that you allow as a temporary sign um I would consider furthering that back from the street right away is if you have a four square foot sign um it seems like it would make sense to have it closer to the road rather than if you had a 32 foot sign right in the right of way on the street so just something to consider is the the size of the sign um could be in connection with the the distance you'd want it from the street fair mhm I am a little confused how we're talking about Road what what's in the RightWay versus what's on the property yes and I know we shifted the language say edge of the roadway and we're kind of ignoring whether it's in the RightWay or not yeah and so I think we need to get back on the same page as where we where we're at there so we're talking Apples to Apples because I think we're kind of we're going all over the place yeah how about this it's not even close to 10 o00 oh we're we're it's ni Young um can I say one more yeah so if is this limiting the size of our our private citizen signage in the right way this is more geared towards like the commercial signage that's just off the right away right so trying to limit the size of sign that's on private property at that point just to be clear this ordinance is not discriminating between commercial and non-commercial at this point it's both yeah so if we implemented commercial versus non-commercial yeah then we would have to add that layer still yeah do we still need signage size like are we saying private signage isn't any bigger than 16 square F feet and but then if you put a commercial sign on private property are we aren't there other rules for that though personally think that it should just be no commercial signage except for realtors I just at least we've now narrowed it down the one they're still going to pop up I'm not saying they're not going to pop up because we have an ordinance but Maple Groves makes sense to me but sprinkler people can still put it on private property if they have permission well that's that's the next step that's the next step is all right if you're not in the right away and I don't know that to me if you're in the right away or not in the right away not only is it an issue for the person putting the sign out it's an issue for staff picking up signs on top of it yeah so I don't know if distinguishing in the right away or not the right away the right answer yeah cuz then staff has to have their phone order or whatever with the gis map and guessing on if they angle the sun right the G photo 10 ft off the street yeah so I think that makes make that makes sense to keep that in there is 10t off the street and I think we just need to add in some wording that commercial signs are not permitted it that that's what we want out the street and are committed to go pick them up except for realtor signs and maybe we can craft mle gr's language I think um it' be good if we could have a conversation with Maple Grove to see hopefully there's someone still experienced there enough because I'm sure it was a bigger problem 15 years ago than it is today in development though not many I know but it's still happening yeah I'd be curious to how they if they enforce it even sure okay we'll we'll craft an amendment um this is a public hearing it is 9:22 I will open the public hearing on this matter does anyone wish to speak or is anyone online there is nobody online Mr chair I think we should wait to minut see if shows up it is 9:22 I will close the public hearing and so this is a non-action item from your perspective I know you had is for us to do some editing and bring it back to you great perfect motion to table yep motion table so we can talk about it again second I'm excited we go all those in favor all see you'll be good to talk about it again at the plan commission and then get talk about it at city council I'm so excited after that so I I think we did the right thing by trying to focus in and I know what yeah I think that's it'll make it easier yeah all right um on the new business and we already hit that item notices and announcements okay this is going to be kind of a round Rob look at haen for things I forget um as the commission knows uh we're going to be short of commissioner soon uh so we are looking for a replacement for Sarah um the announcement is out it can be found or I should say that the application for commissions is on the city's web page uh it's been posted on social media um so if you know of anyone that may have an interest in this this is a great opportunity to get involved with the city government and know what's going on so as you guys know as Commissioners you know more than the average resident and you know more much sooner than the average resident so when we have plats it takes about two years between when a plat is approved or get goes through the approval process before something is built um which May most people find entertaining somewhat so um pays very well 25 bucks a meeting so other items and in this have you had some responses from the online stuff we've had I think three so the the it was posted on Monday we've had three or four uh applicants so it's getting noticed but you know some people look at social media and a lot of people do not yeah just like a lot many people watch this yeah I heard about an opening through a friend when I applied so okay yeah um General update so uh Riverview Villa so this is a a town home project in the Old Village um here's the current status this was approved as two buildings each building with three units and the first building is going up so you can think of you know does your memory of looking at this in two Dimensions look the same as it does in three three dimensions you remember the silver yeah there's a nice porch in the front yeah was there little balconies up there too I thought that was the balconies and was yeah what did the council ever decide about sing I don't want to debate whether vinyl but I'm just curious what they decided vinyl siding although and there's no siding up my understanding well I don't know if my understanding is correct or not I I think it's been Chang but not because of the city requirements okay just left the cement Bo for the front or left the vinyl on the side so what he put in Fire rard vinyl is not fire reti it melts pretty quick and these buildings have a well it's 8 8 ft between buildings that is a fair complaint of vinyl not just that it looks tacky that's not a valid concern it melts I like that that I that I would be fine with as a genuine concern I do recall requesting them to make that corner one and not look like a corner one which is the other side we can't see so my my guess is they didn't change anything on that elevation but that building hasn't been built yet so and I can't remember when that happen if it was different I don't think it I think that's becoming one of my new pet peeves is if you put a corner house up make it look like a corner house don't just have a regular house that has no windows on the the street right like put a couple more windows in I will note that that is a requirement in residential districts for single family homes that if you on a corner street you have to have a window on there a window has to be provided somewhere on yeah more than a window though like make it look like purposeful purposeful yeah like I I know a corner house that looks like a Corner House a fake porch you know looks good used to only have one window all right keep going sorry i d uh Dayton storage so this is we'll say 40,000 square ft of Self Storage on a Territorial Road they've got a foundation I think it a long time AG going I think a lot of the time has gone into getting water to the facility um and uh I think within the last month I've been in contact with them and as well as Marty the Public Works director regarding um getting the water connection done and uh ordering a meter for that uh so utilities are going in if not they might already be in is that water thing that wasn't it like 500 grand for the suppression just to get water for fire suppression so so what we're talking about this is an area that that has well and septic system um it's a large commercial building that requires a fire sprinkler system so without with just a well they needed I don't know whatever how many hundreds of gallons of water tanks and well because water pressure from the well just doesn't yeah doesn't do the job sometimes we have the same issue with the the Public Works building that's that's why the industrial buildings in public or with private water put up water towers yep M um so Opus is Opus went up quick so this started uh I don't know what month it was late late summer real quick um so the primary tenant is turbine Pro so this is not going to call it a manufacturer but a um specialized repair company based in Rogers that's going to be moving to Dayton um they're not they're taking about 3/4 of the building we stole them from Rogers feels good doesn't it they own occupied their property over there so Dayton 94 um so this is NFI and I'm trying to remember it's more of a warehousing and distribution yeah yep New Jersey based yeah braver Trails East first and second edition uh streets are are in so um grading just started late summer yeah permits are actually being pulled on the first edition now getting the model homes up uh David Weekley is uh doing that and uh there's one last Edition that is yet to be played so the streets are all drivable if you want to go on a tour uh the backer property this is uh 9 12 acres that the city purchased on7 117th uh for a future city facility so that was closed on a couple weeks what the city pay foro I can't remember now he around six give or take I don't remember okay seems like a long time ago now wasn't it like yeah it was somewhere around 6 okay Riverwalk second and third edition so similarly the street is in it's it's nice to drive around um I would say that was probably put in within the last month or so are the did are the first edition Lots pretty well built out you know I that this is on the higher end of any home price in the city while it's Hansen they have nice product correct yeah Hansen and M and I are the main builders in this area um I would say that the Riverwalk first edition I've been uh it's not uncommon to see still um permits for that area being pulled I would say when I first started here in the summer I wasn't seeing a whole lot of that in the in the original Riverwalk um but now more so than ever the first edition and second edition are starting to pull permits m& is in there too yes which Robert Thomas as well as a new product than hansome potentially a new builder in town I don't I haven't seen any historical permits on Robert Thomas Holmes but they are umab Bell yeah they they're a big Builder their Traditions own owns them okay yeah they are they're really big down in the South Metro okay are they also like H what do they resemble in in the houses that they build the product they're a higher they're closer to Hansen than they are to National Builders yeah they're not as well I don't want to say that Bash so much I shouldn't bash Robert Thomas I mean I think Hansons are a little nicer than Robert Thomas but Robert Thomas is very nice I'd say typical home price that I've seen for Hansen homes in this area is around $900,000 and they're bigger homes yeah they are four car garages in some cases some rich neighbors oh my God just buckles my mind yeah Sundance Green's 11th Edition so this is on the southwest corner of Sundance back course um road is also fairly new within the last month um MTL and curbside weight so these are side by side uh MTL was completed this fall well both were completed this this fall so there's still landscaping and some minor things that need to be done that's it can I ask about cubes and what's going on um I will have more news next week okay hoping I'd have it today but perspective tenant looking at half of it manufactur okay it's just been empty for a while the other half it's all empty to my knowledge no but you're currently it's it are you talking about um a current tenant I've just heard the rumor on the street I'm not going to say their name or anything but is looking at half the building about half the building cuz I thought they had taken half yeah not the other half there there will be uh deed will put out a press release next week and until then I I can't say a whole lot but yeah not supposed to say a whole lot I I have in the past but for your clarification Mr Mayor there I don't believe that there's been any uh discussion about the second half of that bill right so we're talking about the first half about the same first half that's that's what I've been told the rumor which half is the first half they they're pretty open about what yeah well the office the way the building was designed the office is only on one side of it so that's why I'll be curious to see which half is the first half oh all right you ready to entertain a motion to close um as far as the next meeting for January uh we've got an intern use permit for a home extended business I will talk about signs again it's not a yeah no dogs there the only there could be some clerical um ordinance amendments that we could could get to that uh could be brought to you guys for discussion um sure we we had a resident at the last council meeting that that was challenging the ordinance that uh prohibits parking on the grass so that's likely to come back to council um we we've had an tremendously busy fall so there's a lot of smaller items that we've had intent of getting to and just never did so um I'm thinking we might have a longer short conversation about many topics um and then we'll also discuss uh the A3 District again is the parking on the grass ordinance part of the parking ordinance yes and our parking ordinance the way it's structured it covers all uses it doesn't like for example if if you're in a r I forget what the multif family is R5 or what whatever the multif family district is you have to reference to the parking section I believe is that fair if we're going to hit the parking section I can tell you right now that we might as well do something about our parking for multifam that is on that's on our radar and we've got uh references that can um provide context to a more upto-date codee that reflects what you see in other communities um I don't know if that would be the same conversation that would be had related to recreational vehicles and trailers being parked on the ground I'm more thinking if we're going to hit the parking ordinance might as well do it might as well do it sure and I don't I don't want to make it overly complicated cuz there's a lot going on with different uses but yep I mean I guess I what I would ask you guys is like I think our industrial is even like based upon employee counts sometimes and that's just I mean it's um so my opinion on yes whatever ever we do it'll be wrong no matter what it is um every commercial you every every industrial user is unique yeah let's make it as wrong the best we can and there are things that we've seen in other codes where um you can take a look at the floor plan of a building and say okay this many office uh square footage requires this much parking and then the rest is Warehouse I mean there are other alternatives to rather than using employee count as you said that's quite a diff there better alternative employee count yep okay okay and just a note for the record the next meeting in January is January 9th 20125 so if I'm not technically sworn in as a you're still here I'm still here okay so I'll be at that one but that will be my last one as a mission unless we table the sign ordinance again you have to fight Dennis for the council liaison to the Planning Commission I might we can have two make a motion to attourney Second all in favor nice job nice chair for you got actually I'm disappointed e