e we call order the January 2th meeting the Deon city council stand for the pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right I need motion and a second for the agenda motion Dave need a second second okay uh any discussion any changes okay all those in favor say I I I all those opposed Say No Agenda carries 5 to zero we on to consent we need a motion in a second motion second discussion [Music] I have a couple things go ahead right um in the minutes on uh under R we had a resolution for official designations and appointments um I was assigned assistant lead inspector for Metro cities I don't even know what that is I my paperwork if you want me to actually check that I guess is you're probably the alternate or something for that was the alternate for I think the Northwest metros Metro mayor Association mayor Association yeah I'm not sure what that one I will check and see what that is and see I think I have the notes and stuff on my let me check on that [Music] iar if it is something follow up and let you know what it is thank you yeah thank you um I'll just keep going and uh in the payment of claims uh we have a a bill from archival archiv social incord Incorporated social media archiving is that what it sounds like um archive social I believe and I'm going to maybe look hopefully to Mar maybe it's something maybe Kelsey does for Social Media stuff the back up for any data practices request um sorry I believe it's the um backup of Facebook and any um stuff that we have so if a data request comes out they have they have the information all right um keep going here uh on page 23 uh home security abstract and title for 594 th000 that would be the purchase um it finally got put on the payment of claims that's the purchase of the property down on 1007 Avenue so you already approved that purchase um it's the same dollar amount just because it was a wire it wasn't put in the payment or it wasn't put to the system and now we put it into the system when we do with the December bank rre and that now puts on the payment of claims it's got to be approved so sure you've already approved it technically but yeah oh good um I just wasn't sure if this one was uh the one in the Old Village it is not that the Eda has been working on nope that one is should be on there as well should be roughly 152,000 Maybe um that's related to the one up on the hisor village that the Eda was doing okay and then one other on page 28 um Opus development for 168,000 um yeah I'm going refer to Jason quis that's Rel to storm water ponding on the other side of um when we didn't put the to call it the yeah there was supposed to be some improvements completed with The Interchange to accommodate some storm water from the site those improvements were not included with the project so they had to later be constructed by Opus but they weren't responsible to because it was part of a prior negotiation with the land owner so they constructed them on behalf of the city and the city paid okay so they did the work they did the work for the City Y was that the the undersized pipe business um yeah there was yeah it was undersized to be able to convey the storm water off the open site that was based on when we were doing the D Parkway we had exchanged an agreement um the oversized pipe never got put in the parkway work this was discussed when the da was put in and it was and mentioned that we give them credit 100% for their storm water ponding they did all the work I think it was like 350,000 we got credited back the 170,000 cuz that's on the da related to credits and then we paid the difference is that just kind of effectively taken out of the temp then or that's taken out the storm water fund oh okay I guess it makes sense it would normally have been paid so it's not really a difference because it normally would have been paid on the storm water fund when we did the Dayton Park project yeah so okay that's zero all right um that's all I add anybody else okay we got a motion a second all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no s pass 5 to zero open forum is anybody here for open Forum come on forward limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items state your name and address no council action will be taken and items will be referred back to staff R Grover 11320 for mlan I'm here again to talk to you about the gas station convenience store that's going to go in the DCM development Dean's Country Manor neighborhood where all the existing houses have wells remember that there are already four soon to be seven gas stations within a 2 to five mile radius of this location at a recent city council meeting there was a presenter that said they were also planning another gas station convenience store on I94 which will make seven currently selling groceries is the one by the elementary school the one by Target the one at the trailer park and um kish's on 113th only sells gas but that makes four people selling gas three more in the works why would you think that the south end of town needs seven gas station convenience stores or even five all but one south of 117th and consider the things that happen around a gas station the traffic will be ridiculous children will ride their bikes on Fernbrook Lane to go spend their money and hang out I know this because I did that myself as a child only we didn't have bumper-to-bumper traffic on a two-lane road with speed limits of 55 miles an hour every time it rains or snows the water will wash the spilled chemicals into the groundwater and into the neighboring Wells there's no plan for any um sewer H hookups or water hookups there the noise from the cars and the lights will be glaring into people's homes 24/7 there'll be trash all over the noise from a car wash and pollution will be happening 24/7 have you ever taken your car through a car wash next time pay attention to the noise and where all the water goes then imagine that next to your house running 24/7 and Mr Dean wants to put a gas station right next to a holding Pond where all the pollution is going to sink right into the ground and into people's drinking water most of the people living on Fernbrook have been there a long long time they paid their taxes for a long long time and they deserve some consideration in this project does the city have an obligation to keep its citizens self yes they do what else do they have they have rules and regulations they have a police department they have a fire department also I've contacted the pollution control agency and the State Board of Health they advise me there's very stringent rules about building gas stations next door to people with private Wells and if you think that five soon to be seven gas stations slash convenience stores is just not enough for this end of the city as well as having the Target and that this city just has to have at least one more more and let's place it right next door to homes where the citizens get their drinking water from the groundwater then you have to follow those rules exactly nothing less and I'll be right there to make sure that Mr Dean the gas station owner and you the city especially follow those rules all of you will be held responsible since you all played a part in the pollution have you heard about um the situation out in White Bear Lake with the water Gremlin and the pollution the people adjacent to that property getting cancer there's lawsuits going like crazy theirs is not an isolated case and we don't want this to be one of our cases and what about our property values maybe our neighbors should pull the money and buy the property next two years and do the same thing to you especially since if this if if this is approved then you're throwing the comp plan right out the window and it doesn't mean anything to you oh and by the way ever since the house has went up south of Dean's Manor on and over on 117th the neighborhood's been inundated with water problems maybe this problem and also the traffic problems current H currently happening should be addressed before any more houses go up and speaking of traffic problems need I remind you that the mail is another ball of wax many of us are senior citizens living on fernberg we've been there a long time and we have to cross 121 several times a day to get our mail the mail delivery in this area is so erratic that we really do do have to cross Fernbrook several times a day to see if it's been delivered some days the post office doesn't even deliver to us some days it's not there until 8:30 at night so of course we do not know when it'll come so we have to keep going out there and looking someday one of us is going to get killed man issues need to be addressed before you approve this plan don't let the developers do all the work and you just sit back and roll with it start planning positive things for the city and for the people who already live here many in my neighborhood for 30 to 50 or more years 52 for us do your job and let's really live the difference and I would like to draw your attention to the bottom of the agenda here where it says one of the part of the mission of the city is to provide residents with a safe and pleasant place to live while preserving our rural character so thank you thank you anybody [Music] else I haven't been here for a while so my name is Kathy poers and I live on 11461 Fernbrook Lane and I'm really here to talk about the letter that I just received about the EA for the DCM farms and you know I am totally against making a portion of that Farm commercial or retail I I I just don't understand how we can do such a thing I know he's got a roundabout there and I know his plans are to do something there but it doesn't spell out what he's going to do on that commercial property it just says that he's it's going to be commercial or retail now I not going to reiterate what Marca has gone through or anything like that because I think she's it was well spoken um but I think again here we're taking the cart before the horse we haven't dealt with the traffic on Fernbrook and I know I've been working with Tracy who did the um Champion or Champlain fourway stop there and Stacy is or Stacy Sarah is also said that she would help help out in that and we've gone to henpen County and the first time they turned us down because we asked for a four-way stop by the church because that's not only traffic but it's pedestrian there is no pedestrian sign nothing there there are people from Sundance that take their children in strollers and just walk across because there is a platform there for them to walk across to go over to to the park and um that it needs to be dealt with somebody's going to get killed and I don't want that to happen so um the other thing is on the retail side um Mr Dean has said that he wants to put in about 260 Residential Properties there now if you multiply that by two you get close to 500 or over 500 more cars that are going to be on Fernbrook Lane because that's where they're going to go they're going to go to the hospital or you know they're going to go to work and also if you put in a commercial retail how many more cars are you going to have there I think it would be absurd for anybody on the council here to approve any kind of commercial or retail property there I mean I don't like the idea of the retail either but I have kind of said to myself well it's going to be what it's going to be and I can't do much about some of that stuff um we moved here about 50 years ago and loved the atmosphere of the rural um community and the Outlook and it still indicates that you want this to be a rural atmosphere and putting more homes putting retail more commercial and Retail in is not going to be anything that looks Rural and I just plead with you guys to think about what we're really doing here and if it means stopping the whole dog on Project I guess that's what it means stopping the whole project um let's see I do also understand that there are still water issues on the uh lee hulquist property and I know that you have been out and look to see that and we still have issues with that we haven't dealt with that as a as the city we haven't dealt with that and then to say you're going to let more building happen this doesn't make sense to me so anyway I won't go on anymore I think I've said enough thank you thank you anybody else Lee hallquist I live at 11471 firm Brook Lane uh and I'm here to talk about it's the end of January and I'm still some pumping water uh I'm pumping more water than I'm using so I can't I don't believe it could be an internal leak um this started with the development about the time the BR burn project started or Le I keep calling it The Le property cuz that's what I was told it was but but you know that something started when that happened I never would pump water year round like we do the last couple of years I pumped water when we had a drought a year ago um this water's coming from someplace it isn't my property um I feel the city is actually they approved the plan I think they've got got some skin in the game here to fix it um you basically you're diverting water a lot of this started all the wetlands that used to be along 117th are gone and I think it's cuz you you got rid of the wetlands and just put a couple holding ponds in there and everything I've read says holding ponds are not the same as Wetlands as far as their function it's part of an ecosystem you should be working with nature rather than against it um you know I I don't I can't tell you how disgusted I am CU I can't just can't tell you but I've noticed that if you if you drive around the west side of Champlain where they have a development they kept the wetlands they don't have holding ponds in there in their developments they've got Wetlands all around it and so they have less houses the houses have to be further away because of land and stuff like that but maybe we don't need to sell every square inch of it for taxable purposes and I don't know if the DNR needs to be involved in this or what with the Wetland protection but but pulling out a wetland to put in a holding Pond isn't the same thing um I don't think the city and I don't think the Planning Commission did their due diligence about two and a half years ago when they approved approved the first project I think you had an obligation then to find out about it I raised the water drainage as an issue the developer raised the water drainage as an issue I I think you had an obligation to do something U I don't think you did your due diligence then and I hope to heck you do it now my fear is once Tom starts with this project his once he starts working out there it's just simply going to overwhelm my septics or my U Sump System I mean I'm pumping when it's warm out and it rains I'm pumping so much water as it is I don't think my pump will keep up and I and I'm pumping 750 gallons an hour um even right now like I say we're pumping more water than we're using um I think the city has a responsibility here and I hope I made my point um like I say I think you guys got skin in the game you approved it the Planning Commission approved it the developer told you what he's going to do and you went along with it and that was it so my feelings I'm appreciate your time thank you copy off a bunch of hi I'm Keith Grover 1132 Fernbrook Lane there's a few things I want to discuss tonight and I think probably at least at one time or another I've discussed them with all of you but um I think we we just need to keep bringing these things forward so that you guys understand how we feel about it the development that's going on in the southern end of Dayton specifically the stuff by by Sundance because that's what directly affects us the traffic and the uh the water runoff um the water that's running off from the existing development there comes across and it goes under 121 and then it crosses under 112 then it goes behind the McDon property and then it goes into the small Creek that's behind all of our houses that are along the road there that property has never has never run water continuously and ever since they put that development in out there even with the holding ponds I'm not sure what they do because I see more water than before the holding ponds were there but the water that comes across there is unbelievable last year when we were in that months or two or three months long drought the water never stopped running across there flooding across flooding Jesse Young's field um which I cut hay on and uh then across the Hillary McD's backyard and it's just a constant swamp back there guys it never was like that before they did something different out there with that water and there's way more water coming across onto our properties than what there was before and I think that's what Lee's talking about he worried about the property that Tom wants to develop behind him I mean we didn't do it right on the other one it still screwed up and he's pumping water now even before they even get it going I understand why he's worried about it and frankly I'm kind of worried about it too cuz I'm not that far away from him and I'm downhill from where Lee is that's one of the things I wanted to bring up another thing is I don't understand I don't understand why our Planning Commission and and sometimes our Council when I'm going to spe specifically talk about the Planning Commission I don't understand why they're doing Monkey flips and back flips to make our ordinances morph around what the developers want we have a comp plan we have city ordinances we have lot sizes that we've all laid out we've all agreed to you guys have had you know open meetings you've passed ordinances they're out there they're in the comp plan but yet every time a developer comes in with a plan specifically like the one that Mr Dean is bringing forward now that's along the north side of 113th there's nothing in that thing that I see that that follows what our comp plan is or what our ordinances are why in the world when they bring those things forward don't we tell them here we have ordinances we have lot sizes we're supposed to follow every time they come forward with another plan they're asking for smaller lot sizes I know you guys see that because the first ones he built out there were fairly decent sized lots and then he builds the next Edition and then he ask for smaller Lots now he's wants to we just got the the deal in the mail for you know for his next layout for back there and some of those lots I have a small three-bedroom Rambler it won't fit on those lots I mean they're ridiculous I don't know why we even consider letting them do that especially after the the fire thing that we saw in California what happens if you you know one gets on fire and then you have a wind and pretty soon you got a whole row of and then you got a nightmare for the for the fire department trying to put that stuff out but I think we need to pay attention to our ordinances and make the developers Act follow what we've decided the city that we want it to look like not what they think it should look like in order to maximize the dollars for them it's not our job to make sure they make the maximum amount of money off that property frankly I don't care I mean that's their problem they chose to build the houses they chose to do the development they know what the rules are we've got them laid out there they've been out there for in some cases for decades they need to follow them the traffic control in the and the sidelines coming in to Dayton I remember when they first did the the uh the development along 121 South of Dean's Manor all the way over to the edge of Dayton where it meets Mabel Grove by The Rush Creek they built a buffer zone along 121 because the council at the time thought that we don't want people driving into the City and the first thing they see is just smang houses banged up all along the road they built that big buffer zone those you know if you notice those homes are way back off the road along through the there they're back farther than probably two or three you could probably put two or three homes in the way they want to cram them in this new development in that buffer zone I don't understand why when we get down a quarter of a mile down when we get to 113th and want to go north of there why they're not considering any buffer zone there at all I mean they're cramming that they want to do the commercial up there which to me is just insane to stick in the middle of a housing project all the new homes that are coming in there plus all of us that live on the east side of 121 that are in basically in either small Lots or fairly small pieces of property we don't want to look out our window and see glaring lights from street lights 24/7 I mean it's it's bad enough that we live on 121 in the first place we know that traffic's not going to get any lighter unless we have a different road which that's way off in the future but I think we I think we're really putting a cart before the horse like Kathy says all of these things need to be discussed and need to be planned out and have some kind of a step by step to move forward and we can't just Leap Frog over all these things we need to have you know some kind of a buffer zone like they do on the south side of 113 I mean that makes it look better I mean I don't know that to a farm here that none of it looks good but I understand it's going to be houses I'm not that naive I guess the commercial property is the is is the part that really breaks the camels back for me it's right in the middle of all of our homes we've lived out there in a nice peaceful live this live the dream right live in Dayton live in a country I grew up in Dayton my family moved in Dayton in 1962 I grew up over in Elm Creek Road my daughter and her family still live in the house that I grew up in my wife and I have been in our house since 1974 and I never in my wildest dreams ever expected us to be looking at the kind of project that Mr Dean wants to stick across the road from us I don't think it belongs there I think it belongs in wherever the city has commercial property in in this Zone commercial not in the middle of a housing project I'm sorry I've took too much of your time thank you thank you do we have anybody on line have nobody online sorry sorry we have one person online um if you want to raise your hand function U be able to speak will be appreciated nothing good staff consultant and counil updates act you're member of council I don't have any updates I didn't have any time past week so thanks so much um I have a couple of quick ones uh well for Rehab update um cracks in the cabin at the bottom while have been identified um we're pumping we will be pumping cement grout to seal off and then uh remove the residual sand and about of the well uh drop in a then we'll put a test pump down there run the test pump until the water is clear of sand then we'll reinstall our pump uh run bacteria test and hopefully we'll be able to put it back into service so we should be back up and running I don't have an exact timeline on it at the moment it depends on the weather we've been held back because of the cold temps um Parks um we got six proposals on the LC Stevens Park Master Plan update um we are our staff working on trimming it down to three candidates for the park commission to interview at the next Tuesday's meeting to trim that down to two for Council presentation and question and answers and and contract award in February that's what I have bid meet the other bid requirements or these I mean I'm a little confused about they are they're going to whittle it down to three what uh so um there's three proposals there and they'll pick the best two out of the three and so we're doing the same thing uh going through what the requirements of the RFP were if they met those requirements and then other you know if they're able to meet the requirements through skills based on how many offices they got if they got a local office those type of things to make it um the best proposal going forward okay chief good evening mayor members of council uh last Wednesday the 2025 uh Northwest rban fire academy started we have 16 students not specific to Dayton um but throughout the surrounding communities and then uh earlier this afternoon if you had an opportunity I did share the uh 2025 revisions that need to take place of the Emergency Operations plan there's 17 annexes contained within that so those plan planning documents um between Chief in and myself attending the Northwest Suburban emergency Planning Group um we go through those planned documents take a look at them edit them globally for all the north uh sub the North Suburban group and then we have to bring it back to each of the back to your own Community to make it more specific to the city of Dayton if you will So the plan is over the next 10 or 11 months is to review that and then um if you guys have any questions that it relates to anything that's in there please let me know and we can uh we're going to move that forward so the goal is have that complete by the end of the year and then next year we' start with some um tabletop exercises sorry I forgot something on my update um uh we have a broom on the CIP for this year it's a $144,000 um budgeted item we have been looking at trimming that down to a lesser number and in the process we found a used unit that would uh work for us um the the used unit is 6,000 um it's a year old it was used by inoka county for uh snowplowing um on the islands and medians um the piece of equipment didn't work for that purpose cuz when it tipped off of the the curb the broom was at an angle and it kept hitting the uh RFP on the front RFP the PTO on the front of the tractor um so we won't be using it for that kind of thing we're going to be using on flat Serv like trails and ice rinks those kind of things um so it's uh a good fit for us um I haven't been able to get uh another quote they're holding this broom for us I was wondering if I could get the approval to go ahead and purchase that um without pulling the the full staff report together I have no problem with that I don't have problem with that make it go okay thank you very much as long as we keep you under what what did we have you last year like 11 or 12 items that he bought no I'm just kidding yes John um we've had several projects come in so we will have a busy February March maybe April okay that's all nothing here any nothing from me I don't think so question I'll the question afterwards after what after the meeting these people keep talking about this Dean's development and we haven't I haven't seen anything I don't know I have no idea what they're talking about okay um chair um I was wondering if we could talk about having a lighting ordinance in Dayton after our last city council meeting when um some residents brought up concerns about neighbors with lights all night uh 24/7 and uh like bright white lights um and we don't have a lighting ordinance of any kind to look at so um I thought it might be worth if other people are interested I thought it' be worth um thinking about a lighting ordinance I don't don't bother me I mean I may be because recipient of on sure yeah we can s good we can look put that on the agenda or say the docket to look at thank you nothing uh nothing for me nothing for me all right on to cons business item G evening Council um just want to let you know there's no action item with this uh to be taken this is just to share information um about City infrastructure projects um Contracting and change orders just from information only feel free to interrupt me at any time it's it's uh this is just to kind of share information so there's um some understanding on how we manage through these projects um so my agenda I'll just go through very quickly on the the project process just the steps um typically involved with it um the Contracting specific to the public bids versus Invitational quotes what those differences are and when we can use those um and then most of the uh content will be on contract ppes and change orders um how we how we do those uh with the projects and then I do have some Daye and project metrics to show just uh some of the spending on past projects to that may or may not be helpful just how that compares with how the contracts are are executed so the typical project once the Improvement is identified or brought to the attention of Staff Andor councel um staff will usually come up with options identif or identify options to improve the situation um if that's possible and within their their ability uh feasibility of study whether that's a formal study or just staff or even Public Works looking at the site seeing what can be done at that time we'll estimate a scope budget and timeline for the project these steps will then all be uh through Council so the design will be authorized by Council and then completed and then the design will be brought back and Council will give authorization to go seek contractor bids to complete the work once those come back if they're found favorable Council can choose to award the contract to construct the improvements once approve once constructed and approved and accepted by the city the project is then closed out so just a quick quick run through that I don't think there's any surprises with it but just wanted to lay that out that's kind of the lifespan of the of the infrastructure projects so the public B versus Invitational quotes and I think most are probably familiar with this that and this is all statuto statutory that's uh that requires this public bids have to be accomplished or utilized anytime the project is over $175,000 um just noting that the 175,000 is the construction of the project not the total project cost so when there is a public bid the project is advertised in the city's legal publication which is the newspaper that's identified by the city and then we also publish in trade I call them trade Publications there's probably a fancier term for the online uh database for it Quest CDN is where we post all of them because the contractors are looking constantly at those uh to learn about the projects and then if they choose to they can submit a bid on those projects um there are some requirements on the biders being able to bid on the projects but there is not really any control whatsoever from the city to prevent them directly so can't pick and choose your biders um um and then the city is required to award the contractor to the lowest responsible bidder so that that's not an option and again that's in State Statute so U I always do have to go with the low uh quote solicitation this is optional doesn't have to be utilized but when the project is expected to be under $175,000 the city does have the right or the ability to solicit directly from contractors so same thing project will be put together but then we will reach out directly to the contractors of our choosing and request that they submit bids on the project so city has full discretion on who those those can go to um in this case the city is not required to award to the low bidder however in practice I think we probably always do um we're sending them to contractors we prefer and no so um the lowest price is usually what we would accept um and I'll just note this probably is maybe even obvious but solicitation is generally more efficient we don't have to go through the formal Publications um the contract documentation can usually be thin to back some because we're going to people that we know instead of having to make sure we're accounting for all of the contractors that might not be um as experienced in the work type we're looking for so the contract types often used or available um commonly to these is a so basically the terms of the contract on how we would would pay the contractor so lump sum is probably the most the easiest to understand the most straightforward this is basically you name a price or the contractor names a price and I will do that project for this dollar amount and that's it and they get that amount for accomplishing the project um this works really well if it's a very defined project like build a table I want a table built lumps some price makes a lot of sense the table is either built or it is not um but not always good for projects where we're not sure of how much of each of these things we need um so well-defined scope is is probably ideal for it time and materials is one um if we really don't know what we're getting into this might be used but we do try to avoid this at least for the primary Contracting um this is literally the the contractor will just charge for however long it takes for him to do the job and then they'll have a material cost as well if they have to provide any materials and then there's generally a 10 to 15% markup on those materials as well um this is often used if the the scope is fuzzy if we have no idea how long something will take to be honest we do use this method quite often in certain types of change orders just because we don't really know what's going into and instead of having them shut down and charges for downtime and remobilization we'll have them move forward on an hourly basis and just work until its result so the unit com unit price contract is this by far um nearly all I will say of our projects are done this way um so in this process and I have an example that will help with this but the work is divided into work items like install curb um excavate material install sod very straightforward but units of work with estimated quantities for those um this will make more sense on on the next slides but again this is this is good for projects where we know the type of work needed but we don't necessarily know exactly how much it is so it allows some flexibility in there so we're not over pain or under pain for the work being done because if we're under paining we're going to have to have a change order to pay more so again the the work items are identified um for the work so the type of work is identified and this is by the owner in the bid package or the the documents we put together um together with an estimate estimated quantity so it might be linear foot of curb is the unit and we think we need 150 ft at Curb so we'll put 150 ft in there and then the price of that will be left blank that's what the contractor fills in on the bid so they'll say okay we're going to say $23 per linear foot of curve so that's how it comes comes together so the sum of these the quantity times the unit price gives you the total for that item the sum of all the items on the project that becomes and it's estimated though it's not it's not explicitly listed that way it's the estimated contract amount so that's what your contract is awarded based on but it's not a firm payment price so I I tried to put together just a very simp simple example of of how this would work so if the owner of the city homeowner whoever it might be wants you know 50 ft a 4ot wide contract to get concrete sidewalk to get from their front steps to an existing sidewalk in their front yard you know they would say okay you're going mobilization that's to get you and your crews out there store the materials maintain the site excavate the M material to make way for the concrete aggregate based to support the concrete the side walk itself and then the seed to restore any of the Disturbed Turf in the area so that would be your project so the city would provide the bid items the units the estimated quantities and then the contractor would insert the prices here and then it's just math from there to get to the total of in this case it would be $3,870 so that would be the estimated contract price based for the award so if the Project's completed and maybe the final quantities came came in something different now they got the materials and the labor out there they completed the work so they get full payment for the mobilization the excavation maybe they didn't have to haul it off site cuz the owner said you can just go fill that low area over there so they didn't have the expense of the trucking or anything else so that quantities get zero they didn't do the work they don't get paid for it nothing paid on there the aggregate base they used a little bit less than we estimated so there's a little bit of a savings there by one unit the sidewalk came out as we measured it as expected and maybe the seed their equipment tore up a little bit more of the grass we had to use a little bit more seed so that one we pay above so we got our sidewalk exactly like we wanted but the total price is actually a little less than the contract amount so those don't have to be the same in fact they are almost never the same so is there ever a situation where the unit price then can deviate or the unit prices are locked in short of a change order okay so if there was a significant number they may issue a change order or they me requested change order significant quantity change yeah I mean like I mean there's efficiencies there in the unit prices right so they plan on six and it ended up being 12 or there could be and I have a note on that at a future slide so I I will go through that because that is an important point or that's it for the does that make sense on the Contracting and the payments okay so then oh sorry um the change order itself so a change order is needed to introduce a formal change to the contract terms so again if there's a you know variations in the quantities you know we needed an extra 10t of sidewalk or something um usually it's just paid there's not a change order for changing because it's the work types in there the estimated quantities is in there again to the mayor's Point unless it's a significant change that warrants a change of scope or a change of contract if it's if it's a reasonable number that doesn't have to change um that you pointed out the exception right here mayor um there is some Provisions in mots I think it's 20 I didn't have time to verify it it might actually be 25 but if there is a a bigger deviation on it the contractor has the right to renegotiate a contract price you can always renegotiate the contract price even if it's less than that if both parties agree but there there is a some protection on the contractors and for that so in some circumstances the unit price could be adjusted for example we if we said to dig out this large pond and then we got there and we determined we only need half of this they might have worked some of their other costs into that excavated volume and now they would want a higher price for a smaller quantity so we would we would change the unit price again that would have to be per change order not not through yeah it have to be through change order because it' be a change in the terms for that unit price um and then just to note that change orders can increase increase or decrease the contract amount or the expected payment amount however that's viewed um or have no change an example of that would be changing the completion date for example um which we had recently on the on the wellhouse 5 um we will note and I I'm sure Council will will recognize this that we generally only see the increases in the contractor and and the reason for this is actually quite simple so if there's scope added that means we don't have the scope in the contract we have to introduce that to the contract if scope is taken out we just simply don't pay for it if we just say we're going to forego the Turk curb and not not pay you for it even if we have bid items estimated quantities and a price Associated if we don't want the work done and the contractor doesn't require or request a change in it we can simply just not pay him for that item so we don't bring those change orders to you we could but it's just more processing than needed expense and coordination in my mind um you will notice with the interchange uh mind brings all of those forward and that's why you have 40 some chainers on that project whatever 36 there a lot um so I run through the the different causes or or things that can trigger change orders um you know generally they fall into these three categories I think probably always um unforeseen conditions and that's probably the most common um owner directed changes and I'll go through each of these with a little more description or plan errors or missions so those would be the reasons for them and in almost every situation so unforeseen conditions it's something that was unknown prior to the bidding so during the design phase something that wasn't known wasn't included in the project it was discovered while the work was was taking place could be before the work was taking place but post pit anyway so it's not accounted for in the contract so example back to our sidewalk um project if the the contractor was Excavating to build the sidewalk and found a stump that was cut off just below Turf level and not excavated but now in the way of the sidewalk that would need to get removed so you'd have two options and this is a common occurrence um on the work sites you can stop work in which case you usually get about a $1,200 to $1,500 or more per hour charge from the contractor for their guys to sit there and wait for you to make a decision so most of the time we authorize and say okay time and material get this work done we're going to log everything and then we'll negotiate a contract or a a payment after the fact so that's almost always the way we end up going on it because it almost always is the cheaper route to go so in a case like this the contractor would request May request you know $160 saying it's going to take me three hours of shoveling and $25 to get rid of the stump down at the compost so that would be added via change order to the contract because that's new work new payment and something to note that had that stump been known about the contract would have had a bid item for a removed stump the contractor probably would have put in a price somewhere around $160 and it would have just got paid second one is an owner directed change um and we do have this time to time we've had this um I think on both well houses I think we realized when the work was getting done that we wanted more pavement for for maneuvering trucks so that's a good example but just to stick with the sidewalk um example on here if the owner determined um say oh it' be really nice to have be able to walk from my sidewalk to my mailbox I want some pavers to go to and around my mailbox so you ask the contractor for a price on that he comes back and says I'll charge you you know $15 foot it's 25 ft $375 again it's new material new work that's added to the contract via a change order for $375 again had the owner already known he wanted these pavers he would have put those in the original bid would have put 15 or 25 Square ft of it probably the contractor would have put a price of about $15 in there and you'd be paying that anyway so these really aren't additional costs if you will as much as unanticipated costs are these making sense okay um and then the third one and this this one gets the most complicated so the the and these are more gray they're a little bit harder to deal with often so plan errors and omissions these are just mistakes or um you know just oversights when putting the scope together um it can could be for any reason um either it's a technical error or it's you know input from you know staff or residents of you know what's out there it could be anything that's just prevents whatever it is from being included in the project or being included incorrectly in the project so an example again back to the sidewalk if the resident wanted Turf seed or uh I'm sorry wanted a native seed mix they wanted blackeyed Susans and Native plantings in their yard not a lawn Turf mix but they didn't tell anybody that they just said put seeding in so it got specified as a Turf mix because that's cheaper and more common so that was bid at say $25 but what they actually wanted was the native seed which is more expensive so they ask the contractor and the contractor says well that's $40 so again new work you don't have an item for that so you have to introduce this by change order for the work so there there's two ways this plays out in projects one's much easier than the other one um the first one is if this discrepancy is identified right away for example if they haven't even started the project they've bid it but they haven't started the project landscaper hasn't been out there so nothing has happened maybe the owner goes through the documents and says no I want native seed this has to be corrected that's very simple now they just change it to Native seeding so you introduce the $40 per pound for the native seeding and you don't pay the 25 so you really only your only additional cost is at additional cost for the seat and once again if that had been known at the time of bidding you would have put native seed in there you would have had $40 for it so not any additional cost of what you would have had so item two this is where things get can get ugly so if the work has started or been completed now these start becoming loss costs these are extra cost to the project for example if the landscaper gets out there brings the seed mix and does bring the other one so he's got he's got Turf seed mix there and the owner says that's not what I want I want I want the the native seed he doesn't have it on site so there's a cost for him to go get it so you're in for some cost now for him to go get the right stuff and you're still paying him the $40 so you are paying more on the contract if it's even worse he comes back and he throws it down and it starts growing and you realize that's not native seed and you want him to redo it now you're paying for him to redo the work so that's where it gets very expensive luckily um I can only think of one of these examples since I started here in 2015 um it was on The Interchange and it wasn't very big but there there was one that that did happen on that it's pretty uncommon um that's why we have people on the site to catch these early so we can do this before they become problems so very uncommon but those can be the big ones um so yeah just I know gener the earlier these are caught the better and the less expensive it is so this this is literally just a summary of the three but I just I just want to point out on these that the different the different causes if you will um on these the the price you would have paid had they been known earlier is the same as if you figure it out later now there there could be some variation in there the contractor might charge a little bit more because he's notified late so it might not be exactly the same but if we get a change order for an unforeseen condition of $100,000 even on a project had we known about that issue ahead of time you would have paid that $100,000 they just would have been in the original bid so you don't think the fact that he's bidding that first would have some effect on it now te's so he's got to compete initially yeah and when it's a change order there's no competition it's just no does it inflate his price yeah is it that can happen and we do a lot of arguing over that um and and we do um I would say almost no change orders come to you as proposed by the contractor you guys can yeah and they can take months they they they can take the life of the project for that matter there's some we don't settle up until the end um but and that's why I say it might not be exactly the same for that exact reason because you're right um that can happen um usually after enough discussions with most contractors are pretty fair um and they they'll get in there maybe there's a 10% yeah inflate yeah yeah something on there um some of them tried to be more unfair but we can usually turn that around pretty well um so yeah and I guess to that point I mean I just made the note there that we get a lot more requests than what come to you um I put one and 10 in here as a guess it it varies a lot you know some contractors are very fair and you know we might if they bring a con a request to us we might bring that to you because it's reasonable other ones we might bring one in 30 we get a lot of these requests for for things I don't think I knew that yeah there's there's a we you see almost none of them um only the ones that we feel are Justified that they have reason for for bringing those through and then haven't been able to negotiate through them um so this is basically change order 101 and not the Prelude to the bomb dropping on us no I don't have any tonight so I don't have a bomb actually we don't say that we have none on the docket right now but now I'll probably have five of them next meeting now that you said that February March are busy blow up no the next item has nothing to do with change ORD so yeah this is just information on where where it gets a little fuzzy for me I think you know it's clear to everybody we don't enjoy change orders very much um but your example around around the stump you know is is a pretty good one it's pretty clear right you you don't uh you don't tell everybody to go home and come back after the council meeting in two weeks you know it's it's obvious what needs to be done and it's just a matter of getting it done and moving on so those change orders still end up coming to us for approval but the work is done and it should have been done yes but in my head it's like well what are we approving then so and you coming from the line of work you're and you probably know that we use change order incorrectly in those situations that's actually a forced account so it is a different the process is exactly the same and all municipalities as far as I know do this um mindat will do it as a forced account it gets processed at the city as a change order but yes it is different you're giving the work dire dirve before getting owner approval and that is what we're doing with those change orders we're doing that for that exact reason if we were to say hang tight we're going to go get approval you can start back up in a week and a half right you're going to see a huge bill I mean it's very expensive to have all that equipment and people sitting around so um I don't I don't know if that answered your question or not but yeah well it's I mean it's in it it's an attempt to control C is this ation and and clearly there are like the example you use I mean there's no good reason to wait on on doing that work you're in the middle of something people are there to do it and and you want to keep moving um because standing still has a cost to it it's just the part that that again is is not clear to me is then why are we even approving it I mean it's work necessitated by the project you know it's going to get pulled from some contingency yeah uh until that's gone but then then we should talk about it but things that keep you moving I mean is there you know is there a dollar amount is there you know is there something where we just don't we understand that the work has to happen and we don't need to talk about it again right um no that that's a a good question the um the the contract is between the city and the contractor and the city being Council the the decision-making body has to approve the change to the contract so it's still a change to the contract even if they did the work they're basically doing the work with the understanding that the contract will be changed and they will get paid so you are approving the contract to be amended to bring that new work item in that's that's actually not done while they're doing the work they're basically doing it I don't know if I'm explaining this real well I think it's more of a formality I think that's honestly the answer is probably it's just it's more the work's done I mean if you were to deny it they will be able to fight it and get paid I mean I think that's safe to say but but yeah just because you are the owner and you're the you're the party to the agreement that it takes your formal approval to make the formal change on the contract is that maybe it could just be framed up differently when it comes to us to say this is you know this had to happen we did it and here's the impact should probably make a yeah I should probably make a better point of saying this work was clean up this work was completed and due to urgency or whatever um but yeah yeah we can try to voice that better um when they are brought before you on on the reasons for it but again I I this this last line I just want to RND because I I mean this is just something I came up with but you know the change order there are exceptions to this but it's it's General Al not an extra cost as much as it is an unanticipated cost because again had you known the things prior to it you would have been paying them anyways so um still not great because nobody likes unexpected cost either but um it it's better than an extra cast in my mind so um these are met there's a ton of numbers I apologize um I just wanted to show oops um I just wanted to show these are some of the process past projects that these are all far enough through that I was comfortable putting numbers up you know we have a lot of them in process here um and just just to show how how these can change so these are the different projects the approximate years at least of the the construction and I I think these should be fairly accurate numbers um you know some of the older ones were a little bit we had to do a little bit of of piecing together on them but so under the con so the construction part is just the the the contract amount um or the bid amount so that was the the the bid amount versus the actual construction cost so as I said they they never are the same and they are sometimes over sometimes they cost more to bid it than we estimate but often it's less than we estimate as well so um in this case just to note the ones with parenthe parentheses are unused budget so um you know Pine View probably they pick it because it was the biggest one um you know they they bid 3.9 million we paid them 3.8 so it's almost $100,000 less than what we anticipated on it so um and I didn't not intended for anything other than to show you know when they don't do the work they don't get paid so even on the change orders I mean some of the change orders that we approve ahead of time um we they're still estimated quantities often so we might still pay less with that even um and then I did include engineering because I just had it in the same spreadsheet um so the the authorized budget is what we came and requested from Council and then the actual engineering cost is what we actually spent on the project and as you can see we are consistently under on it um I try to be reasonable I I they see I um I think we need a lot more than we do sometimes but I don't like asking for change orders so um I don't know just just to give you a sense I again nothing specific to take out of here I just wanted to um let you know where you're sitting on things I mean generally speaking uh we're coming in you know better than anticipated in my mind so and that was it so hopefully that at least helps some if you have any questions let me know if you have any questions tomorrow or next week let me know can run through any of this on H um this this one is for storm water funding so the action on here is actually quite small it'll flush out with this but I did want to give you guys a heads up of some of the stuff going on here with some storm water projects just so you're aware of them so I'll try to run through this quickly um Elm Creek Watershed um that's and that's actually you know just for information that's what's on the right here so all of this area is the Elm Creek Watershed boundary so as you can see Dayton is 100% within Elm Creek Watershed District as well as all of corkran all of Rogers a good portion of Maple Grove and then pieces of the other communities as you can see um so they managed this area from a storm water standpoint so the Watershed got funding through uh Bowser the Board of Water and Soil resources um through a program called The Watershed based Implement implementation funding so they secured some money to do projects within the Watershed we had requested money to do some of the projects that were identified within the City previously and I'll show that on the next slide and these projects all got approved so we got some money to do these projects um so tonight's action is actually just to formally accept the ability to use the money for the projects so that you're it's not committing to anything it's just to enter the agreement but I'll get to that at the end um so the project selection Council may remember we did a subwatershed assessment so the area highlighted here which is a subset within Dayton and actually part of it into Rogers um associated with diamond Creek which also includes U Diamond Lake and French Lake as well so it's the I'll say the the colored colored shaded area um I tried to highlight the city boundary in there just to give you um a reference of where this this covers um so that study really looked at you know what improvements could be done to different areas within there to improve improve overall water quality in the system and downstream of the system and the real intent of it was not only to see what can be done but also to use it as a tool for securing funding which is exactly what we did here so when they had the opportunity for this funding we picked a few of the the what was identified out of here and said yeah we've been looking to do these they're on our CIP we want to do them and they they entered them in and we got the funding for it so project one is a feasibility study so it's just looking at what could be done for the water so storm water during rain events that falls within the mobile home park community and that all flows to the east under West French Lake Road to French Lake so this is a study to see you know how can that water be improved because there's no treatment to it prior to its discharge into French Lake this will be 100% grant funding um eligible so no cost to the city for this this is just an aial of the look of of the project um so the study will essentially be you know along this path you know what could be done to improve water quality probably it falls somewhere in this area but we'll look at that with the study I thought didn't um so when they removed their treatment facility I thought something along this lines these lines was done then there was so their sewer treatment their lagons were actually up here where invent is yep but and I've I've hav't been able to confirm this other than residents have been here long longer than I have is this Pond was dug at one time um that was the original treatment pond that's what I've heard from other residents that have been here longer than me school yeah so that was yeah same I heard so that confirms it I think um things were a little looser than yeah um so maybe helping water quality now certainly then much more needed if you're running that type of water through there but um yeah so the the the the study will be um to look at that project um project two is actually a construction project and this is for the neighborhood immediately north of Diamond Lake um the roads take some water through there there is minimal treatment there is some treatment in the neighborhood um but there's also a couple drains that go directly into the lake with no with nothing prior to its discharge this project was looked at I don't know maybe 2017 that was part of it it never really went anywhere because we didn't find any money for it um but it's being looked at again so just a quick and I'll go to the this is just storm water right this is just storm water storm water only yeah um so these are the two discharge points there's just I think I got that in the right spot um there is a third I don't know yeah there is a third one down there um we don't have space for it though for so we're going to get the two weekend easy what would a treatment look like I mean what would so so what we're expecting is saffle baffles which saffle just stands for St Anthony Falls Laboratory um just because they they built it it's just a mechanical mean so it's just it's a structure with some wears in it that just it it helps settle out the Sands and salts supposed to catch yeah so it's just so you don't have the Delta build up where the water goes down into the lake it just captures it in there and then back it out and get rid of it just to help with the long-term maintenance and let less of that salt from entering the lake so it's it's just a way to trap some of that um so they're just mechanical structures we're estimate preliminary estimate is 70,000 for the project the grant will cover can't do my math 75% of it I think whatever 58 is finance K can do um so they'll cover that so the city would be on the hook for the remaining 12 um one thing I've learned since even doing this presentation we might actually even be able to split that with the Watershed so we might be able to get that down to six I'm not positive yet but we might be able to whittle that down even further and then the third one is to study Grass Lake um that's the one that actually it's on both sides of South Diamond so when you drive in from Rogers you'll just see cails on open water on both sides um 64% of the water that goes into Diamond Lake comes from Grass Lake and as of today there's not a great understanding of the pollutants or what's going on within that lake so this has been identified for quite some time and very much highlighted in the subwatershed assessment to get a better handle of what what the pollutants are in there and what's going on in there so this study will look at the internal loading and the different components of the lake why why am I thinking that would actually help Diamond Lake with with gra like draining into it I mean I got to believe that's fairly well buffered it's probably not terrible it does take this whole area of Rogers so the good part that that part of Rogers was built what we say after rules so rules got more stringent in like the mid 80s um simple way of saying that is most of those guys have pawns I most of those sites are treating water so um we don't necessarily expect Grass Lake to be extremely polluted or anything but it does help with management of Diamond Lake and then Downstream just knowing what we're dealing with and if there is anything we can do in there some kind of a chemical treatment or a draw down or any other anything else we could introduce to help that that would just trickle down if you will so um the thought is to do the study there again um these studies because they align with the initiatives of the Watershed and their goals that's why they're being covered 100% so 100% cost um per the grant with no cost to the city the only downside is is that it's recommended that there's 2 to three years of monitoring data on Grass Lake to help inform this and you cannot use Grant dollars for monitoring we expect that to be about $10,000 um we've been trying to connect with Three Rivers Park District because they do very much the same things we're trying to team with them they're already doing some monitoring Downstream we're going to see if they can monitor Upstream for us and we can have some of a cost share I think the city of Dayton did have monitor a monitor on Grass Lake they did have about 10 years ago um it was even more a little more recent than that um I want to say there's about 18 months of data they do have some um and we did have some initial talks before we actually got this money um with Three Rivers maybe six months ago um about this that we want to do this um and he said that they would be interested in it as well because again this all goes in through their part and and whatnot so we do have a little bit but to form a good management plan our storm water team is thinking additional monitoring would be of value for that so um again you know there might be a cost responsibility of about 10,000 to the city we're going to look at trying to whittle that down to and maybe it's less than that that was just our initial stab at you know somebody going out there for two to three years so was there any discussion um about drawing down diamond like so we have um yeah and I I don't have anything put into this presentation on it we've also put that on the CIP at the Watershed just to get a placeholder for it um to be honest we need to do some more conversations on that because we we could probably use that money as early as this year I think we even have it on for this year maybe it's next year we do this year is it this yeah um we which it's a that's a significant cost and a significant Project M um and to be honest we haven't I don't know if we've 100% flushed out if now is the right time to do that or if we want to do that cuz we've also looked at some Alum treatments and we have that in there as well and I don't think we want to do both at the same time but we wanted them in there as a placeholder so the Watershed could could work with that information in their CIP and and their funding for upcoming years and then the good thing about the Watershed is when you get projects in there they're very easy to slide around and delay and and whatnot but it's good to have them in there for planning purposes so we did put them in um admittedly I'm I'm not 100% sure if Now's the Time or not but we there discussion of dredging also not not from our standpoint but that's definitely a possibility the reason I ask is because the resident called me from the diam Lake Association saying that they had gotten some very specific people from uh or some specific information about costs and timelines from somebody at the city and I can't seem to F out who that was oh um and I never heard it either I mean huh for dredging or for the dry down dry down dredging so the the draw down makes sense because that would be on the information from the Watershed because we did put the information on there so that's yeah it's a it's not it's not I mean not I think it's a good idea I suspect it is a good idea there's still a lot of rough fish in there so it'd be nice to yeah we think it'd be a beneficial project it's it's just there's there's a lot of stuff to juggle I again I I don't think we're 100% locked in on that yet um but hope to get there soon um but yeah we we'll keep looking at it um this is again this is just a schematic just to kind of show you know here's Grass Lake there's a few inlets from the I guess industrial park or industrial area of Rogers it comes in and then here's where it comes into Diamond Lake and then just to show how these tie together and continue East into El Creek Park so so really the only action tonight is to approve the Cooperative they out the cooperative and subgrant agreement um so that's just saying the city is willing to accept the grant funding for these projects so again not committing to the projects or any other further costs this that's the only action tonight um from there we'll determine you know what's needed for the Grass Lake monitoring we'll work with Three Rivers Park District to to keep working on that um and then we just asked that there'd be consideration for these identified projects then point out my um yet again I had another staff report error I apologize for that I was not able to get confirmation on the studies I was of the impression that the Watershed would complete the studies apparently they will not complete them the city still completes them the funding's the same the but the city's the city is the one to coordinate and complete the studies using grant money I I thought the Watershed was going to do those for us but they're not so um so there will be three proposals coming to you um in the future I don't know when those will be this funding is available until 2027 um I expect you know other than the Grass Lake the other two could be done this year I don't know if there's reason to wait on that the Grass Lake with the monitoring that would probably be 2026 or even 2027 so those will be in the future a little bit further out but yeah there's money in the long-term plan to be able to do those projects so just so everyone's aware it's not unbudgeted dollars um so that's all I had yeah so there is an action on this but it's again it's it's not committing any money or or right you need a motion in a second I'll make a motion to approve it second okay any more discussion so I had one um one piece that popped up at at me and looking at the agreement was under number six limit on reimbursements and it seems like for the construction pieces on this any any overruns are really on us that we don't go back to the Watershed district for for anything like they found mud where they expected something else or the usual things I guess um so am I reading that correctly I guess my question to be it could be um I didn't go through it close enough to to catch all of that that that doesn't surprise me because they do have a hard fix on the dollars that were allotted for the different projects under the Grant and I'm sure the Watershed doesn't have it in their adum tax to cover any additional spending this year so um that would make sense now another option if we dug into this and said this Project's going to be $100,000 we would just cut the scope we' just build one of the two I would think I mean unless the city wanted to put the extra money in but we do have other ways of controlling the cost the the scope itself on these is actually pretty flexible which is great so uh basically the only commitment we have to make is that they will benefit the water quality in these areas not necessarily that we have to build two of the structures or any certain type or anything so that's something we can certainly keep an eye on if we think this is trending High I mean we'd certainly come to council for either approval to go higher or approval to pull the scope back to match the funding okay that makes sense okay and you answered my other question I couldn't figure out what a saffle baffle was St Anthony laboratory yeah they got credit for coming up with that one so questions all right we got a motion a second all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no motion carries 5 to zero and if there are no objections we will be adjourned more adjourned e e