you okay I will call to order the April 23rd work session this thing there we go all right good evening mayor and members of city council um we're here for a work session tonight on the intersection inventory analysis that um Stant did for us our Consulting city engineer so take it away Jason quisberg any questions or whatever come up know Jason wants to what he wants to do so answers sure feel feel free to ask questions as we go um just an FYI maybe the first third the half of this is kind of the procedure we went through and the process for selecting the intersections the data that was collected and how we did things and then the last um portion maybe half or a little more is the recommendations that came from it so um I don't know if there's preference on which one to spend more time on if you I mean I I'll just kind of go through them if I'm going too fast or if you have questions certainly just stop me and uh and ask questions sure soon as I figure this out just click the button CLI that not click it there you go oh um so there was past discussions regarding intersections of the safety and operations um there was a desire on what are we going to do or the questions were asked what are we going to do at these intersections or which ones are important or which one should we be focusing on um the information to be used um from putting the study together is so it would help with uh funding solicitations so when we go off for Grant monies um use for use in the city CIP on developing that which ones might be priorities and what the dollar amounts might be and then consideration when developments come in such as the sun for an example the Sundance uh greens came in and there was upgrades needed for uh Fernbrook likewise there might be more in that area that might need additional um improvements to that intersection just to have that information upfront so it's um we can be clear with what's needed there and and what uh might be the responsibility of the developer and then also just to answer questions to the the public when they ask what's planned there what's going to happen there what's the future of it um that we have an idea on some of these Council authorized the study in uh October 2023 so to start there was 30 intersections um targeted so we we went through with with City staff and we selected 30 of the um I'll call them the the major intersections or the bigger intersections um throughout the city that we thought might be the good ones to have information on um the ones highlighted in green are the ones that were selected um basically we just looked at again the the larger roads the major intersections um those that would have more pressure or growth in use over upcoming years if we knew of any that had specific safety concerns um if there was any operational challenges in other words if uh Territorial and 81 is an example where we we get reports that you can't turn left um out of there um and then pedestrian facilities has been an important one as well people wanting to get to the park um Andor other amenities throughout the city um so again we went through 30 about covers all the major ones so it was a pretty good number to to pick from and it was it was manageable as opposed to just flat out doing all of them so then prioritizing the intersections to to figure out which ones do we want to look at closer which ones to need more attention um we we selected criteria and I'll go through that that criteria on the next slide um for the evaluation um the primary focus on this was safety and then pedestrian um some overlap there pedestrian safety as well but um it was much safety driven as that's a lot of where the dollars come from for the grant monies as well um at least through the henen county uh processes um usually scores better if there safety concerns um and then we identified thresholds for this criteria so we do uh you know what's bad what's good what's bad um they weren't necessarily specific values that say it's good or bad instead we tried to use that so not all 30 fell into one category so we tried to find some balance where we'd choose a thresh threshold to say these are the worst in that category type of thing uh and then from that we did the research to fill in and populate all the the data there's monster spreadsheets behind this with with all of the the info that was used in the algorithms to calculate the priority intersections so each category was Bell curved by the across the intersections but but you didn't bell curve the intersections themselves correct um yeah so you take one category and you would say these are the worst these are okay and these are the best the next category they could be totally different yes okay so each category was done independently yes thank you that's um and then we we assigned the the what we did have stars or points um to each one that was above the threshold in that category and then that how we developed the top 10 list if you will so this was the criteria um selected um the 88 aadt is the average uh daily traffic number that's just the number of users um for this we actually went out and hired a company to get counts throughout the entire city um at all of the major roadways so we knew how many people are using all of these intersections and then we just used a a math formula to develop so 5 million is a it's the cross product between the two so we simply took how many on each leg and then we multiplied them together to get a number that we could measure against each other um higher speed limits um we use those um existing and planned pedestrian facilities if they were present or not um the number of lanes that the pedestrians had to cross the more Lanes you have to cross typically the more dangerous the situation um picking that as four is the the threshold and then crash data was a big one so those are there's databases available for this um so we we went with severity and we went through a andk severity which is um fatal or Serious injury um so not just property damage um but more more serious than that and then the the type as well if it was a intersection related or the the bike or a pedestrian user um related in there um skew of the intersections in other words if they don't quite cross at 90° but instead there's a different angle again U territorial being a good example of that one at 81 um that created a a point um if they were on a horizontal or vertical curve that could cause some sight distance issues was another one um we looked at site obstructions just grading along the sides um more so than just vegetation although that could be a factor as well but we more so looked at something that would take significant change um creating activities or other um railroad crossings within a certain distance um previous control um we was five miles of the cut off what that what that means is if you're approaching this intersection on a main roadway where was the previous place you had to stop or might have had to stop um reason being is the farther you go without control the more likely you are to not obey the the controls at the signal so that was another another one ex for example if you have every quarter mile you have some kind of a stop condition you're more likely to continue your stopping if you drive 7 miles without stopping chance you're going to run the intersection um adjacent development and that was just measured what the access is going to developments U residential typically developments um in the area um and then we did add a category of just knowing concerns um some of these we get calls on frequently and um we felt that should help move the priority up since it's a apparent uh public concern can you explain what you mean by speed r than 55 miles hour just the speed limit of the major leg or or maybe even any leg um just if the speed limit is greater than 55 just on the high speed usually the incidences are are of Greater catastrophe um yeah so just as simple as posted speed limit okay why' you choose 55 and not 50 um again just to kind of get that that split between the the two and here was the results um from those those are the 10 in order um of how they scored using the the algorithm um I don't know if I necessarily I won't read all of these I don't I don't know if any of these are surprising or concerning I'm actually kind of curious if uh I think staff we we felt they were pretty much in alignment with what we thought I wouldn't say there was any significant surprises maybe where they fell on the list was um I guess I personally I wouldn't have thought River Road and and Brockton Lane would have been quite as high lot recently yeah I wonder how that made the list yeah so it's it's a and I have all the raw data this the report is 530 Pages um I can try to sort through and get it but it might not be good use of time sure a lot of traffic but okay yeah I wonder the same thing about Dayton River Road and laale yeah there's been a lot of motorcycle futilities in there or intersection related because it's blind on one side y so admittedly that was the one I found most surprising until uh Zach and Marty pointed out what it looks like and I went and drove it and realized why that's see cross sitting right there yeah it's terrible looking looking East and there's some um yeah there there's some a lot of sight issues going on there looking East oh sorry as you're on laale looking East over that over that Hill also hits your cross member right in the middle so as you're driving down the road if you look and stop at the right spot you can't even see the road your crossmember on your car just based on where that's at you can't see anything so like it's like the perfect angle of it doesn't work so never noticed that think you'd have a lot of visibility there because you're coming down the hill right by Magnus when you can see all the way to the top of the hill Oh not by Magus another1 in territorial yeah um and I think part of that so there's been I think two fatalities in there but neither one was linked to the intersection because they were due to um I might be wrong on this at least one of them was a car making a U-turn because of the stop traffic maybe both or I think there was two happened in okay so yeah they were far enough away it was deemed not due to the intersection so that one if I remember right that one did not score on the um for that part of it so it's another one that seems spooky especially if you're trying to take a left on 81 but yeah and that's another one that's I mean that that intersection is just hard in general because people avoid it right cuz it doesn't work so yeah there's that too so probably less accidents because they drive the extra 5 minutes to take a detour um so but any others on here or actually so diamond in plain view that one's kind of surprising too because I would think we'd have more accidents there but less with theway stop would that that probably helped yeah but I know the the family lives right there routinely see people blow right all the time we hear that frequently I'm pretty sure that one got a a point for the no one concerns because of of public input on it and again I mean there's not there's not a lot of categories so I mean the most is the 10 Stars so I mean one star can move them up or down I mean they're um so the county a couple years ago had talked about River Road and Brockton roundabout did that go anywhere I have not heard anything since they came to council and shared that so um yeah they were they were proposing a mini roundabout there at one time and that was what four 3 four years ago maybe at least a while ago for sure there hasn't been any follow-up discussions on it so I I don't know where that sits I tell when they were starting to experiment with the roundabouts especially the mini ones and they thought that might be a good location for it and they're actually in the they they underway with the project right now to update the trail Crossing there which is only half a Crossing but um the yeah that The Pedestrian ramp at that intersection so Crossing to Nowhere yeah they don't control the county okay because it's on their inventory only the city that's it because they inventory did and they know about it and it doesn't meet code they're required to upgrade it even though it doesn't have a receiving end if you will across the street but we we asked them about it we actually our having them remove one because we didn't want to promote use of it so well yeah it'd be nice to know why that got number two because I don't I don't know it seems like we plus you're talking about two County Roads I don't know how much effort we want to that's number two and number three would be those are both yes County RO number two and number three are both County Roads we technically have no jurisdiction over 142nd I guess we have one like I say three we own a quarter it yeah um so it's scored in the traffic the speed limit speed limit active Transportation facility so pedestrian facilities because there is the isn't it 30 miles hours you get into the St like 55 stops south of there is noton not on Bron that goes right up to the sign doesn't it and then there must have been there was a a k or either a fatality or a a serious inury what on there oh um previous control is more than five miles and adjacent development probably being the meline I would guess maybe being one of them the access into there now granted that's just an individual I don't I don't know which two they were okay um and then also identified concerns from the staff rep public so that was that was where those points were generated on that one they do have a summary on the point. one so those are a little easier to look up is there any one of them on the list that you see that didn't make that intersection list that you think should have that did not yeah so we have the 10 the priority intersections right we did 30 of them um identified the 10 based on the star listing and the criteria of the bell curve but are there any of them up there that you or Council see as a issue or concern that we missed or didn't get the intersections not I see now but I think as development continues you're going to see the ones on Fernbrook start to grow I think especially as be complete between 113th and 117th with development that's going to make 117th I think a lot e intersection that's a dangerous one I the sight lines are kind of if I know it comes at a 90 but the way the hills are and from over the hill there the one side isn't great um true and then I'd say the one on Dayton Road and River Hills Parkway is bad if you're looking to the um East CU you come over the you probably come over the hill there and you can't see anything so I think if we get more development up there and that be it's going to cause problems but nothing I think right now I think just right now I think those are the ones I maybe expected but not in that order but to your point I think also going into CL Park that just the entrance to park right there sometimes people don't know if they're going to clo or if they're going down to uh LC Stevens and there's a slow stretch and people slow down all they bottleneck a little bit happened a couple times this last week with me so I can see that being an issue as well just just a note on the the Fernbrook and 125th and 117th they did fall in 19th and 20th or no yeah 19th and 20th but there's a lot of ties at three stars so um they could really go in either way on there I 117th once we build out the rest of the r Trails too and the rest of that land over there it's going to get it trffic so on the minor leg and that's where operations start happening is when you have more balanced legs also good criteria for Rounds that's where they're are most effective so I mean you're going to double the amount of traffic on 117th as bra and trails to finishes up there so M roughly yeah once it's fully built up um any others just no what about like right County like coming out of our little portion of that neighborhood up there is there any con do we do a DAT collect any data on that intersection possibly not I know it's ours I know if there's any concerns in that SP oh you're right the dayon part doesn't get out to that road it's like 100 foot stretch down the road half the road is eight half the road is know that um so the the closer look at those top 10 if you will um we went um again hired a company um to go out and get actual data at all all the intersections so they did counts at peak hours um how many lefts how many thrs how many rights um all of that so we could look at the the operational side of of things on it um we also did some um estimating of traffic growth in the area just using different model modeling software to try to project what it might be over the next 20e span um there was a safety analysis conducted I'm not going to pretend to understand this completely there's some sophisticated software that does crash analysis um both with existing conditions that can predict future um crash rates um and later in the study could be used to predict uh improvements um due to um constructed improvements or or I should say reductions in Crash rates um due to improvements so um not a software I used personally but um used heavily in in a lot of the the report here there is also warrant analysis which is essentially rating the intersection using the standard method to determine uh is it at or is it appropriate to put a intersection control either a four-way stop or a signal roundabout or any kind of a a control in there so that was done for all of them and then they did uh it was uh capacity an operational analysis which just means how does it function during peak times is there a lot of delays or people getting through the intersection and then those are rated which is typical and level a through level or level of service a through level of service f um being failing so then we went through and and did recommended improvements so you know where the the challenges um are seen and what some potential improvements might be um appropriate for mitigating those um those impacts um and we did some options on a few of them uh most of them we just kind of had a single one but um and then we estimated cost for the construction of the improvements and then again using the software um and men. guidance we tried to monetize the benefit of the projects to make them comparable so we could run a cost benefit ratio on these and see if the projects make sense I don't know if folks are familiar with cost benefit but you monetize your benefit into a dollar amount you literally just take the benefit amount divided by the cost amount if you're over one there's a benefit to it the higher the number the more benefit the smaller the number less than one the less benit number thank you for asking um from the predictive software um and then it's monetized using um so there's software designed for this um and then there's men. guidance on associating it so it's it's um sure but what what qualifies as as benefit the less Rec cost reduction in so there's a bunch of factors and I'm probably missing a bunch of them but like uh delays so if you're improving the level of service there's less delay people's time is money so that's how benefit is calculated I don't know what the person I don't know what the values are um but the less the less delays caused at intersections for example is worth money because you're taking less people's time so there's a number put with that if you're increasing the safety it can predict okay we're going from let's use an example we going from an intersection to a roundabout that takes away the potential for T-Bones or head-ons yeah um so now your accents are much fewer and they're much more minor they're they're side swipes so they're minor damage at best those have dollar amounts associated with them so those are the savings realized it'll show on on the summary slide I have here um not in great detail but how you can kind of see how those are are comparable um and then with with those we we kind of took a step but suggesting the um short mid and long-term implementation projects just meaning um you know does it make sense to do them now or does it maybe a little less important or all the situ the situation hasn't really developed into into a real issue but it should be monitored and then maybe it should be done some some period of Time Out purposely we didn't try to label this with timelines because there's a lot of factors but just to kind of give a sense of you know if we have the opportunity to build it next year let's do it if it's shortterm if it's longterm let's monitor kind of give that that type um so the the actual recommendations um for each of these so I do have these for all the intersection there's a lot of them just to to prepare you doing okay on time but I don't want to get too hung up what's that there's about 14 slides yeah yep um yeah cuz there's a couple options with some of them so I'll go through um I'll go through the first one this was I marked a few of them as you know ones that have been discussed maybe a little bit more that we could focus on or I can try running through all of them but um you guys can let me know and we'll see how we're doing on time um so this one's Dayton River Road and Pine View this was the number one um intersection so um one option is to add the turn Lanes um we've had um continued complaints from especially from Rosewood Lane residents on coming out of there with the the bypass lane now there might be some minor improvements here because the the county is doing some striping changes here that might help some it's not the turn lane configuration here um we requested that they do some pavement widening to accomplish this and that was not U that was not an option with their project so they're doing what they can with the striping um under the current project um this would be a future Improvement so the right turn lane is one and then just to show so each of these will have you know just a summary of the Improvement the cost estimate and just to note this is a construction cost estimate not a total project cost estimate um but with a pretty high contingency so it might not be too far off um but then again um as these were calculated so the the safety improvement with this would would predict less crashes I would presume you know there might be a a safety benefit realized of 276,000 the operational just so the the delays on the other um factors would be the 960,000 benefit um for a total of 1.2 million which means the benefit divided by the cost is 9 and a half that's that's very high so that means for the money you're spending there is a lot of realized benefit there so that's the way to to look at those and you'll see that varies quite a bit um through these 130 cost that's that's just for the right turn line that's just for the right turn line yep you're getting a right a left turn lane there essentially yeah yeah it's wide enough now so you'd be adding a right turn lane yeah yeah but you would have right you'd have a left dedicated left straight and right yeah right now it's a left through and a bypass I think is yeah left through yeah they figure there turn it's a turn if you don't turn there it's a scary intersection time time they figure there's enough room to just put different lines on the road right there it it's not a big change what they're doing with the project now um um they're they're doing what they can I think they might be striping it to have a dedicated left and then it would be instead of having a bypass it's a through R yeah if I remember right that's what they're switching it to get rented there um so this is actually the same intersection with a roundabout option um so as you can see on this one just to to compare the benefits you know the safety benefits are huge um roundabouts again they take away the T-Bones and the head-ons and all the series crashes um but they actually slow traffic down because you have and that's why I mentioned earlier that they typically work best you know generally speaking when you have kind of equal traffic on all of them because if you have 90% or 98% of your traffic on one now everybody is slowing down for the 10% coming this way so that's that's okay everybody's got 15 more seconds in their life I don't so I live on a dead end road that I get onto a main road with a roundabout I think it's the best thing in the world so I'm a big proponent of that even when there's not a lot of traffic coming off the dead end so um I I I agree with you completely but the the operations reads reads Low it's actually negative and that's just how the software calculates it because you'd actually be creating more delays which puts it at a a less than one benefit to cost ratio however this is still um I don't want to say preferred but still certainly a recommendation because if and when traffic levels do increase increase to a point um you know on Pine View or other or situations um grow this you know that operations will go from a negative probably to a positive to make this more cost effective so it is a long-term recommendation would this have uh this option have like a a pedestrian or biking option then along with it as people slow down yeah it's not shown in the schematics but okay there's actually a a plan for and this did receive a point for future pedestrian facilities um even though it's not showing on here we did score it that way just because we do have plans to continue the trail extension out here um it went up to 13 7th or 9th whatever that is going into the new development but then continue north um to Dayton River Road and if and when we can get a Crossing there that will that'll be significant something like this at that point yeah it's cheaper than what the $2 million we got quoted for the tunnel I think to put the tunnel underneath time view the in the par want to look at it yeah yeah um so in the a better just doing the intersection at that point then putting the tunnel in there's no point when the tunnel went um so again I I don't know if if we want to hit on all of these in detail or otherwise I there's a few that I think maybe we do you want to talk about we want to talk about Brockton so these are that one's a pretty minor one um minor you went backwards there that I did I'm wondering why that looked different so two different options for that um and nether them are around about there huh uh no that they W they were more um pedestrian driven for for the safety okay um of it um this is the one um I think is probably the most talked about intersection um so the roundabout option here and this is a short term so you know right off right off I see I move these all over um right out of the gate I mean this has a great cost of benefit ratio um through here so it would be a a great project or we would see it as a great project um one thing and we're all aware um both County Roads so y yeah um depending on their participation level this might be a tough one but um is it fair to assume in this case where three of those intersections are County Roads and one's a city road and I realize majority of the traffic is not there for the city road but is it fair to assume that they're going to assume that we're going to pay for a quarter of it and we're going to pay they're going to pay for three quarters or they going to assume we're going to pay for 2/ thirds of it and they're going to pay for a third unfortunately the latter cuz we've had this situation and we have always we've always gone in um I'll use territorial as an option because I've requested that one on their CIP a lot um so that's territorial City Road 81 um two so two of the third legs so I keep proposing it as the city will pay oneir of the intersection and it actually flops and it's it'll be no less than 5050 but probably you pay more that's kind of the answer so Pine View yeah Pine View Pine View about when we that with Pine View the agreement was a dollar amount on that one which it was it was 50% of the initial guess added or something and I think it probably ended up being about 40% county S out of 1.9 Y correct yeah so it's about 40 35 to 40% something County and then the rest of the city and now they their program actually um the one they're pointing us to caps at a half million regardless of project size okay caps at a at a half at a half million that that's the program that when we're asking about these intersections can we do that with the contractors yeah this is how much we'll pay sorry it's a c yeah for for example we we recently asked about 117th because of the the um braver and East development um and if we should be looking at upgrades there and they pointed us to a program that was capped at half which is the one they're suggesting for for most that we ask them about at least um 81 so 81 and Dayton Parkway I don't I don't know if much to talk about this will be accomplished when upgrades are done to 81 or when um it's midterm and honesty it's probably longterm um one thing that was very difficult we we don't know what the upgrades to the railroad would be um they're usually very significant I'll just say that but they don't give us the number until um it's time for the project so um so here's lale um I'll just touch on it briefly so this is kind of the extreme um one as as mentioned um to the east is a a a large Hill if you will that that really takes away from sight distance um leading to the um dangerous situation that that might exist out there um again this is a pretty significant undertaking um here is an option that might provide some benefit um if the realignment is not to be accomplished so it'd be some grading just to take away some site issues again this isn't going to solve it 100% either but it's at least an improvement that could be implemented you go back yeah the estimate's the same cost by am I looking at that right or is that a typ put the wrong one in there sorry about that I was say for $8,000 that pretty good deal I was like you guys Road by land I was going to say that looks like a pretty good deal move now that was a cut and paste you know what the cost is Jason I am I'm going to guess it's zero it's proba be 800 you for got a zero well it's literally the same thing it's it was a cut and past so it's not it's not anywhere close so I'm going to guess that it's not close yeah should that's why I said something because the first one I was like I seem bad to fix you should just sign on the doted line you don't ask any questions just sign take that for 80 grand yeah there'll be a bunch of change orders on that one for sure those a pretty Kevin will give up change 620,000 620 sorry about that yeah I'm surprised it's only that um I think in the end it would be it's a million so got to this is just for construction cost benit there's no acquisition for land this is just construction cost the benefit to to cost on that one is42 so it's also very low time you can go forward one now sorry I just have the same price I want understand what I so again just a minor Improvement that could be accomplished on that one this is another one that's probably come up more at least as of late um Rush Creek Parkway in Fernbrook into the park um I'll say mostly or at least what I'm hearing mostly because of pedestrian conc concerns or desire to use it for pedestrian purposes rather than traffic but we do hear the traffic as well it's just they're they're coming coming down the hill at 70 and so my understanding was Tom wanted to do this is it is that or he wanted something other than what we ended up doing out there yeah but the county wouldn't go for it I think the park I thought I heard the park didn't want it but oh what was the story behind it and is it something we can still get around well say something to do with the grades coming out the the yeah he wanted well he wanted an underpass south of here I know he wanted that but and we tried to move it North but we couldn't get it to work else want about here even had the money to put into it and then we got told no when he put the money in landscap that was my I I don't remember that but maybe that is my understanding of what I've talked to the developer that did that develop and there was some some sort of problem whether it was grading offset of Fook there was problems with the with the turn lane improvements they had to shift because the turn lane they needed more Park land so they had to alter the turn Lanes um I don't remember issue related to it and it's still think no matter if you even if you come up on it from the West it still is really confusing I don't know did they ever re Reign that thing re repaint that um CU there was from the West yeah um I thought they they did yeah there was no there was no markers there was no arrows on there so I think there was that was was yeah yeah but even you know coming up yeah I don't know I U the north south on that is bad cuz if you're coming from the south to North you can't see people are waiting to cross and they can't see you coming till you're right in the intersection if you're coming from south going north and you want to turn left to go across you can't see anyone till they're like at the intersection because of the way the hill mounts there um so a couple things excuse me I'll point out on here is this was P purposely fit in here there would be land required from F Brook Church or F Brook faithbrook Church uh on the corner and then as well from the developer but there doesn't seem to be any significant obstacles if you will and this also um you can kind of see on that that hatched area that's the existing pavement so we're actually shifting would be Shifting the pavement away from the park so certainly no additional impact on Parkland which is a huge thing with the whole lock on um restrictions on that um the other one I'll notice I'll note on this oh I guess just to to go forward with it so that's got a the benefit to cost of a five um on it another option at this intersection which is what has been planned um at least as of the last improvements is to just add a signal um so that's got uh an even higher benefit to cost ratio not because it's a better product but because it's a whole lot cheaper because that's what's out there so you're basically paying the 570,000 for the signal not all of the pavement and the infrastructure that comes with the round about um looked at in another way if you look at the safety numbers the roundabout safety benefit is huge compared to I mean the signal is is high as well but um it's larger than that as well as the operations is higher so that being said the roundabout is probably the better solution but there's a lot more cost that goes with it as well so just another way to think of it is it County looking at anything they the uh sure that they were going to do a corridor study on Fernbrook about four years ago but um last I asked about it there was a lot of blank stairs so with that big development on the south end that they're going to have to do something that's I think within the next four or five years yeah but not with north of there cuz that traffic's not going north that's yeah well they assum they could be going to Champ in which case they would probably go north up there some some will I mean there's always a split but I I would agree I I would say the the vast majority is going to 610 of Deans right there too so I mean there's potential yeah there's a lot of potential around this area yeah yeah don't don't disagree frustrated that we could have done something and years ago didn't we are doing it again touching it twice three times got it um go back one oh yeah so I don't have a preference from PI from the rest of the council when you look at this do you think traffic light or do you think round about I me we're going to be the ones that probably have to pay for two-thirds if not all of it to get it done I think it would depend on what the traffic's do cuz I mean I I'm guessing a lot of the traffic at least in the morning is is going going south south and a lot of it's probably coming you know from out of that development I don't know how much is coming from the north there's nothing coming from the East and then in the evening well it just be reversed and I don't know either way you got a left turn whether it's roundabout you got people fishing through that or the light in the evening I mean the light's probably a bandaid temporarily I just think of it there's so much traffic leaving in the morning coming back in the afternoon if you put a light there and a lot of those people AR turn left they're just going to back up into that lane anyways I like the idea of just keeping traffic moving with the round about just funnel where you go you slow down you just bander through and Away you go cost three times as much yeah for man and I honestly don't know if if it in the long run we will have our own Devol there and that that does include well if you ask for it you will if ask are willing toay acquisition why you want toay um I don't think the land Acquisitions are in there either see the lights won't require any acquisition right correct no right so now you just added another I I I'm going to make the assumption that the Acquisitions would be reasonable from the developer just because they're they out Lots um Faith Brook I I don't know what that would be valued at but just based on how valuations are done it's it's basically how can you use your land before and after the acquisition and I would see this as being yeah I would assume from the developers aspect it's going to be fairly cheap they're getting pushed back already from the development as it's today sure um and if they're the one holding up a whole round of off from going through it they're going to have even more push back from their Church be the same way though they want their people to get in out safe correct yeah I said the acquisition cost of this one would be fairly reasonable but still three times the cost certainly it seems like the roundabout is the better solution it looks like there's quite a different so we all agree roundabout is better but it cost more okay well that's your I think that's generally I mean that's pretty typical wanted to get stuff we talked about the intersection cost but ween talked about like do we think any of these are worth the cost to get things start getting things done with it not this intersection it's Pine View and Dayton Road or where which intersection we pick but we can do the studies LA but if we're not will to get anything done then the prices are just going to go up the longer we wait you got to figure out how much you're willing to spend and that's the projects you go after that's how I'd look at it and then where's the funding coming from where did this one sit on the list this one's like five I six I think six somewhere in the middle think right in there what's happened to homeowners association fees how's that number seven number seven number seven well I mean got a couple of County ones in there too so we we have about 40 big intersections so how much land is on the North yet to develop there is that a where on this one on yeah on the on the West Side between 117 is that what you're talking about yeah y all the way if you talk to from this road from Rush Creek Parkway to 117 probably got about 80 some Acres left oh back then you got to talk about the bror trails East which hasn't technically got yet that's another talk about 750 more homes north of here south of 117 I'm just wondering how, 1500 more you know we lost the transportation fee but it seems like I I thought we had we had thought there might have been a mechanism where we could allocate some of these outside costs to developments MH I mean that's what driving this and is there a path there um go iation with the developer sure um enforced through the da so that's so we can ask her we can't mandate it correct well if it's a p we can do whatever we want right um yeah for sure um and I yeah certainly um if they don't ask for PUD then no I mean there was I want to I want to even say braburn Trails happened after the fees went away if I remember right did and they paid for all of 117 well so did Nate's whatever his development was heals in fact I think he ended up paying for those medals yeah no no um Cyprus is it Cypress Cypress go that was about the time we were negociating with Tom also frown Gardens oh yeah and I I think he still even though he he was part of the lawsuit he still I think he still paid fees CU he seen that as part of the P process I think want to put words in his mouth but um yeah I it just seems like there's some sort of a you think there' be some sort of a process we can go through we can say this is allocated so I don't want to play it attorney but I mean if you can create the Nexus on you know right short of this happening your development's premature and our infrastructure can't support it y um there's a there's a case for it um for discussions I I don't know once you get into the legal realm of that I don't I don't know where that falls because there's no statute backing um the requirement for fees for transportation they're not protected the same as sewer and water so no I understand that um but certainly not unheard of I mean pretty much we're doing the same thing on 81 in in territoria we're saying yep we're not doing these things till we figure this out so we did this we got some of the stuff done so it's it's not it's not all that dis similar from even the connections so back to Cypress kovak birkshire and there was a second one that kind of coupled with with ion Gardens um on River Road they they do their connections so they have to do turn lanes and sometimes raise medians and other widening they're expensive projects it's a half million dollar a connection um this is not all that different from that the the I mean really the easier argument if you will is for their connection Point that's 100% to benefit them that's to get their yeah buyers in and out a nearby intersection has some Regional benefit as well so then it becomes more of a casier um I think at least generally just talking with developers I mean they they they get it we're going to put more pressure on your intersection we'll pay our fair share sure that'll lead to a lot of arguments what fair is but but nonetheless I don't I don't think there's a ton of resistance from you know helping or participating financially towards projects that make sense um and now if you start asking him to do improvements a mile away from them probably going to have a tougher case and is there a way to take a piece of a per permit fee and just say 10% of that permit fee goes for road work oh that I don't know I don't know if Zach knows that yeah I was going to say not since our dead yeah not possible well that's not talked about yeah it's just not it's not possible cuz that we have to follow um building code when we follow those things and building code that's where the dollar can go to just a few more I'll I'll go through this one I'll just Breeze through this is Troy Lane in 81 um I would I would just say this gets done either when needed with the Troy lean um traffic level builds to to needing it or when 81 improvements are done um so it's just says a long-term Monitor and then when needed um again this this one we've we've discussed this is the one the mayor just mentioned in fact um but this is specific to we just use the same drawing specific to the 81 improvements so it's it's a smaller cost because it's just those improvements on there um and then the salt diamond and Pine View um we talked about that one a little bit just uh the roundabout works well here so it does have a positive um benefit to cost ratio on it uh might be a little tougher to implement just taking um property and three developed Corners um but none nonetheless it does show to be a good project if you will we expect that only to increase as traffic increases on all all of those legs really so and then the last one we did not have um the report will have all of these figures as well of course um all of the existing ones of all 30 that are shown on the right we did not have a sketch up of this one um this is Dayton Parkway and Hol Lane territorial um so just by samstone if you will between 81 and and uh The Interchange um not really on the radar because it's a new intersection um maybe but kind of a challenging intersection um just with the the vehicles getting in and out so um looked at it two different ways one of them um for pedestrian use is to get the The Pedestrian Crossing acrosser that some rrfbs could be installed that' have to be a pretty elaborate system most likely the ones with the massed arms where there's multiple lights to bring driver awareness up because there's so many lanes going through there um but that could be implemented um I think that cost is probably low I think they'd probably be more than that um and then the a traffic signal which will be required at some point um not not qual not uh uh not warranted yet but we do expect that as traffic to to increase so about going back one Jason back one yeah that's not the one I wanted no no that one's I'll be dead before that one happens this one oh that one right there yeah that does not have a light factored into it all it does not no uh does not meet warrants for it so really if we funded it would they allow it it's a great question um I don't think so I think they've said no that's we asked we asked part of this process we asked them if we if we fund a light will you put it in here and they said no we won't allow they they generally don't like them until they're warranted because again they create delay on the main line which is typically their Road correct so but they do the same when it's both their roads so at least they're consistent I guess with it but conditions WR um that was that was it we actually got through all of those um yeah I don't know if you wait can you back up yeah no oh to the house to the house okay that need a new row of so for keeping that place looks like somebody drew I'll be that tomorrow we can get volunteers to do it but it it's we're trying to keep that place we work it's a drone photo from a resident that sent it to us yeah pretty can you go back to the list on the ranking of the intersections yep top 10 okay thank you one and seven I think you think one and seven are the biggest priority I that's what I think are the bigger priorities so you're saying forget the science and the stars and go with your gut to be honest with you in the last couple years we've had more accidents at the River Road in North Dake road than we River that's one that surprises me because that's the one I'd heard was the worst intersection of Dayton the one5 you uh number three nor time and row so the fact that's number one was surprising I expected that to be number one so I expected I expected to go three one is the order for one and two so I was surprised that it was the order but I know what the construction they had going on caused a lot of confusion that's all that wor more accident there than we've had at River roading so just I don't know these I don't know if you do pull um accidents on that intersection I don't know how all five year so the last five years um one Serious injury six rating of b or rating of C3 rating of O I don't know what those are I got to see they're just diminishing in severity North Diamond number yeah yep North diamond and River Road so that fatality was more than 5 years ago the fatality would have been at in between Pine View and one oh yeah that was right by uh the pond in uh um uh Pine View Meadows that pond out against the was it was the head mhm oh did somebody came cross crossed over drift across okay and then there's been eight angle or left turn accidents six rear end accident so there's been a lot of incidences that one yeah that's an ny one but it's 2 p road is this anything we can get to the county as is as here's some additional information for you to ponder please um so that was a that was one of our initial thoughts with this is to create it in a way that best align so the county has um I'm going I get it wrong um HP safety the the the the S is safety so it's their program um safety implementation or safety Improvement program I think um it's something they have that they all lot dollars to um in their program so they have their countywide list of all of their intersections that are identified Pine View and um 129th were was one of those so that's how we were able to get the funding for it it came from a different pot of money it wasn't from their infrastructure or their their uh their buildout fund it was from a safety um program so our hope with this is to say hey here's our concerning intersections how does this align with yours if they're on the same list why aren't we doing stuff so that was a lot of the driver of in fact when this was first requested if Council remembers we had was great timing we had just started working on this for the for those reasons so um yeah it aligned well so that's why the extensive safety protocol and all the crash data and the analysis on here is because because that aligns with what the county does so we were hoping to find some Synergy there that we're hey we're working towards the same goals we're we haven't gone to them with the report yet we wanted to present to you guys to make sure that it looked things looked in line and there weren't revisions needed but we plann to go with them and see how do these align and how do we get some of these projects mov have list right now no um we have to subit this to the county in by May right last year we to submit it by a certain date in May this whole thing came to be if we weren going to submit anything because we didn't have a list and now we have a list yeah that's their that's their $500,000 Max Grant matching dollar limit it's like May 30th or something hypothetically if we say you know what we need to fix State and Road and P it's bad we all agree it's bad it's been bad for a long time we're going to fix it we know that it's going to cost two let's just say $2 million would they automatically give us the $500,000 towards it if that's what we wanted to do without like we could we still no certainly no you need to qualify submit an application and then it's reviewed but there's no way they'll give us more than 500 grand sounds like not through that program so again that program is separate from hsip so hsip is a different program that they have for funding um safety Improvement projects so that's that's again where we're hoping to find for 130 you can get that right lane and that helps I mean it's it's a temporary fix certainly certainly a fix that because right now nothing's going to happen for 10 years we we will send out the full report so you have it we just want to provide the highlights and stuff but we can send the 530 page report to council so you can have that on a week reading that the report itself is only like 47 Pages the most most of it a technical five minutes till Council any other questions comments well thanks Jason thank you Jason okay all right we next thank you e