I will call to order the Tuesday, December 9th meeting of Dayton City Council. Stand for the pledge. >> I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, I need a motion and a second for the agenda. >> I'll make a motion. >> I'll second. >> Dave and Stephanie, any changes. Oh, yes. Sorry, mayor, members, council. One item. I did forget to update the presentation for the 2026 budget, not 25 budget. I think we've already passed that one. So, just amending the letter to say 2026 for item N. Um, doesn't change anything with the items and information in there, just which budget we're talking about. Any other changes? All right. All those in favor say I. I. >> All those opposed say no. carries four to zero and we are on to um Oh, what is this recap? What? Close. Oh, that was more Do you have a thing for me to read? >> Oh, yeah. It's on the council packet. >> Page two packets. >> Yeah. Do you have the packet up there? >> It's page two of the packet. >> I do. Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. All right. >> Sometimes this is very >> concise and sometimes not so much. >> All right. On November 25th, 2025, Dayton, City Council held a closed meeting pursuant to Minnesota statutes 13D3 for the purpose of considering strategy for labor negotiations, including negotiation strategies or developments or discussion and review of labor negotiation proposals. Persons present at the closed meeting were Mayor Dennis Fischer, council members Scott Salonic, Sarah Van Aston, Stephanie Anderson, Dave Bent, Dave uh city, excuse me, city administrators acted um city administrator Amy Benting, city attorney Amy Schmidt. During the closed meeting, the city council will consider the labor agreement proposal from the Minnesota Teamsters public and law enforcement employees union local number 320 representing essential supervisory employees. At the conclusion of their consideration of the terms of the labor agreement proposal from the teamsters, the city council directed the city administrator as to how to respond to the proposed terms during ongoing negotiations with the teamsters. Okay. Uh, consent. I need a motion and a second. >> I'll make a motion. >> Second, >> Dave. Scott, any discussion? >> Absolutely. Go ahead. Uh, Gary, and trust me, I'm not creating an issue here. I don't want a whole bunch of scrutiny for asking a question. Uh the turnout gear, we got 10 sets and I'm going to call them class one and class two because I don't know the difference. >> Fair enough. >> Um you had told me that I'm not quite clear on it here. We got 10 sets going for maybe the current firefighters or maybe the mercenaries that we hire. >> Council member Sonic. So yes, we are purchasing 10 sets. Those are 10 complete sets. So your class one for interior firefighting. >> Yep. >> Um in 2017, so we have, excuse me, in 2027 because we purchased them in 2017, 10-year shelf life, per se, per NFPA. Um we have various or we have numerous firefighters that are wearing that gear, but some of them are wearing the coat and some of them are wearing the pants based on size needs. So, our intent is to replace 10 firefighters uh with that turnout gear, freeing up those 10 sets for about we'll say two years thereabouts. I'm not sure exactly the month that they expire in. And then the type two sets we are purchasing for everyone. So again, that's for everything except for interior firefighting. So allow them to >> use those um during incidents that don't require uh high significant heat. >> High heat. >> Um and then also allow us for like when we do send it out for cleaning and uh sewing repairs that uh they still have a set of gear to wear. >> And so you once made a comment that you can't buy the set until you got the fireman because you don't know what size to get. So apparently we're just kind of hoping that it kind of can jump them jump them around and fit whoever needs them. >> Yeah, that's kind of how we've operated. I mean it's just kind of in general, right? >> Um so most of the sizes that we currently have are for the average firefighter if that makes sense. Um, so the new the replacements will go to the current existing firefighters and then we should have at least we believe we currently have what is it 38 sets of turnout gear ranging in sizes for 27 firefighters. So we have a few extra sets, but again it's really based on size. So, even if we did hire up to the eight, um the practice typically is to purchase for existing firefighters first and then as other ones come in, we'll >> Yeah. And if you got to buy a couple more later. So, what >> the other question I have on the 25 class twos? Why not buy all 25 of them at one time and and save the 300 bucks? >> It's about 300 bucks difference roughly per set. >> So, yeah. So, we are purchasing, just to clarify, so we're purchasing 10 complete sets. >> Yep. >> Um, at like $4,300 a set. 4321. >> That's the class one. >> That's the class one. And then we are purchasing all 25 of the class 2 at the same time. So, both of those are coming together if that makes. So, that's the total of the 67,000. >> Okay. But the packet says you're buying 10 of 10 of the class twos for 850 bucks roughly. >> I can clarif I I clarify. I I'm more of a layman's terms. He he could talk more of the sophisticated stuff. So they give you a discount on the 10 because you bought 10 class ones. >> Oh, not on all 25. >> They give you a discount on the class two if you buy a class one set with it. >> If you don't buy a class one set with it, they don't give you that additional $300 discount. They still give you a discount if you're buying. I see. >> But they don't give you that class one discount, >> right? You got to buy class one to get the discount. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, Zach and I tried to we we went back and forth trying to figure out how to explain it. So, it made some sense. So, >> didn't make sense to me. So, I had to baby. >> All right, that's all I got on that. >> Any others? Nope. >> Anybody else? >> Uh I had just one. This was on item in item G uh related to the authorizing pavement payment for easement acquisitions on 113th Avenue. U just in looking at the the bids, Jason, the the one thing that stood out to me was I mean I always look to try to find out where the you know the big swings in the price are and there was quite a range with this badge. Um >> you stopped I stopped looking at >> but what I I'm wondering about is is where they were um there's quite a wide span on on pipe pricing which I kind of scratched my head about. Everybody's buying pipe from the same place, I I would guess. And why there's such a variation in in their costs on that. >> Yeah, it usually comes down to where they put the money for it. Um, it's the excavation of it. So, usually your pipe price increases significantly with depth because it includes the digging required for it, but some will put their money in other items. So, some will put it into the pipe itself, some will put it into like the general site work, for example, to come up with the same price. But, it's it's kind of where they put it. You're right. They're all paying comparable prices for the pipe itself because they're probably buying from one of two men two suppliers, but how they construct their bids for the bay items is up to them and that can vary. >> Yeah, thank you. That helps. Um, and we're comfortable with this contractor that was the low bidder. >> We did, in all honesty, we we don't have a lot of experience with them, only on a couple small jobs, but we did reach out to them and ask for references and they provided a lot. they they have more experience than I would have um guessed even. Um and we actually even talked to other contractors that have spoken highly of them. So, um it appears they're very capable of this type of work. >> Okay. Thank you. >> That's all I had. I have more of like a logistics question, I think, and it's for Marty for the um public works truck purchase in that um the quote or like the different quotes that you got. Um and I might have just missed it, but the graphics aren't in there because we will put graphics on the side to match the others. Is that just it's paid for separately or is it something that normally >> We have some in stock from RPM already, so we'll just put those on the side. That's even better. Thank you. In the future though, that would be something that we would look at with the full package, right, when we purchase a vehicle or the graphics normally included in the quote. This is my real first time going through that. >> The graphics on our trucks are very cheap. They're about 100 bucks for, you know, both sides of the vehicle. So, >> yeah. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Typically for the other ones, like public safety vehicles, we'd have it all in one cost because it's one cost for the vehicle itself. Yeah, >> we may have a lease through Enterprise, which we do like with the police vehicles, but then we have a separate cost for the the equipment to what I know outrig it or get it set up for service. >> The lights and the tow like package were on there. So, that's why I was like, should graphics have been on there, but if you have ones extra, that's even better. >> Thank you, Marty. >> What are you doing with the old truck? I could use a truck. >> I don't know. know that you need this truck. >> I don't think you want this truck. >> Something with four-wheel drive. That's all I'm asking. Sorry for being late. >> Do you have any questions about consent? That's what we're doing or not. >> Okay. I actually did uh the EDA terms was one of them. Sorry, I don't have it. Everything was an odd year or >> not. What was the years? They all got corrected. Be um so there was um as we've changed over with staff, we've had different terms and who should be where. So I'm trying to get to the item here. Basically Yeah. Go ahead, John. >> The I'm going to say what they should be. So we we have uh one for 2025, two for 2027, one for 2029, and one for 2030. >> That was the one that seemed odd to me because everything else was in odds. Like they went every two years, and then there was a 2030. And so I just wanted to know like and also that's a 5-year term which seemed kind of long to me. >> The 2030 was appointed in LA 2024. >> Okay. >> So it's a six-year term. Yeah. >> Okay. >> EDA is six-year term. So the last one that was approved or the last one that would have been appointed would have been um Jack Bernins and he would have been till 2030 based on the fact that his term that term expired in December 31st, 2024. >> Okay. So I just like I said it caught me because everything else was odd and >> technically we didn't approve that one to what May of 25 something like that when we realized that he had been you know his term had come up then we did it and that's where the kind of confusion happened with staff and council and getting you the correct information. So we wanted to make sure that we corrected it as best we could. >> Okay. But that one is supposed to be an even year even though the others are odd years and they're all sixyear terms. >> Yes. >> Okay. Just wanted to clarify that because that one seemed odd to me. Um, >> would it be silly to clean that up so that they're just all odd years that >> stacks? >> Um, yeah, we try to do at least, you know, we try to keep it to one a year. It seems to be easier to replace one, maybe two a year than it is to replace all five or all four at one time depending, >> you know, who's on the EDA and where they're at with their business or whatnot. The reason the reason why we have two in 2027 is because we expanded from five members to seven members. So, >> Yep. But we also have a 2029, 2025 and well this one and then we got the odd one or the even year one. So, >> so if you wanted to put it on an odd year, would you since it was May >> Well, you'd either would you just push it or stretch it to >> I think the problem is is that you've then got one that's been on there for 6 and a half. >> You got it. or do you move it to 2029 and then they're just all and we have two two and two and two. >> So if Yeah. So obviously there's another one coming up on the agenda tonight of appointing an EDA member that would be pushed to 2031 cuz it's a six-year term again, >> right? >> Um and so that would be you have two in 27, one in 29, one in 30, one in 31. It they're not going to make a big difference because it'll be >> term. It shouldn't make a difference as long as it's tried to be one and that's how it's supposed to be set up. >> Okay. >> Yeah, that's fine. I know it's a bit confusing in odd years and even years and such, but >> well and it just I was >> Yep. Great. They're good questions. >> Also, everyone else it was a four-year term. I didn't realize there were sixear terms which seemed really long. Um particularly because they are like Yeah. which is fine. Um and then this one I apologize if this was already talked about the um fire department turnout gear. Normally there's a budget like was that already budgeted for? I just didn't see or was that already hammered out? >> Council Van Abson. That is currently that's part of our existing budget. >> Okay. >> Uh let's see here. I think >> um and then Zach, you and I had talked about the personnel policy about the unpaid time for nursing mothers and that the the way it was phrased. >> Yep. I didn't not get a chance to clarify that with our HR firm. Um that was put in by our HR firm based on some changes made at the legislative level. So, I don't have an answer for you besides it stays in brackets cuz I don't know if it's supposed to be unpaid or paid. In my personal opinion, if it's something that they're going to be during work hours, it would be paid because it's, you know, >> based on they need to do it, but I mean that's a nursing mother thing. I >> I was just the the way it's worded was unclear, but if you're working with our HR, >> I the HR firm is the one who updated the so wasn't city staff and that's why I reached out and I haven't heard back and that's on me now. Oh, well, I mean it was I told you yesterday I don't expect 24-hour like results. It was just my questions. Okay, those were my questions. And again, I apologize for being late. So, and shout out to Norris Hutner for plowing me out so I could get out of my driveway. So, >> we got one more out on uh on M also the personnel policy and I chitchated with Zach about this earlier today on page 73. There's a two paragraphs in there. One one states original or f first it states if an employee works 35 hours you need to to add in 5 hours of um u personal leave to make up for the 40. And in the next paragraph it says if a person is takes 4 hours or less then you don't need to use paid paid leave. So it didn't make sense to me. I mean, one one paragraph is contradicting the other is what what I assumed. >> I think what it's trying to say is if you're going to take four or less, you can flex that time as an exempt employee, you're going to take more than 4 hours of time, which should be 5 hours of time, then you must take it as leave. That's what it's trying to trying to get to. um is that as an exempt employee, I'm salaried and most of them that are here are salaried. So it >> doesn't really matter how many hours you work, but if you're going to flex hours and whatever, we try to say if you're going to take off a day of work, that's a vacation day. >> Okay? >> So you can just continue to bank a bunch of vacation because you worked three nights in a row one month or whatever. If you flex four hours and you don't need to take vacation, you can just flex your hours based on the fact that you worked more hours that week. >> Oh, okay. It's a way to use a vacation pick later >> so that you can instead of having everyone flex all their hours. It's a way you have to take vacation if you're going to use more than 5 hours of flex time. >> Okay. >> On page 99 94 it uh has a little clause in there about being an employee and going for public office. And I know we talked about this >> like a year ago and just never went anywhere with it. >> Correct. >> Where are we going to go with that? because theoretically that shouldn't be in there or we could have an addition in there that says our >> we were going to correct that. Yeah. >> Our policy could >> I don't remember giving giving clear direction from the council to address that. >> There was discussion about it and then it kind of just went >> I think I think the direction we gave you was let's wait till after this election. >> Yep. >> And that and >> we didn't pick it up. >> Wait. And we probably should. something the council wants to address. I can address that. Right now, it just states this in here because if you are a city employee and you go for a public office and you get it, this is based on full-time employment now. Yep. >> Then you'd have to basically give an a leave of absence without pay to fill the elected official role so that you no longer are a city employee or you can resign if you'd like to do that. But that's what the current personal policy states. It does not address anything about a paid out call firefighter or part time. >> Where does it say full-time? >> It just any city employee and it's intended to say that if you're >> the personal policy for that, it should be clarified to say a full-time even though it doesn't. It just says any city employee. It should say full-time city employee is what it's intended to be, >> which theoretically should say any employee. It currently says any employee, >> but it's intended, I think it's been interpreted to say to mean full-time. >> Our ordinances say full-time, >> they conflict with this. >> That was the state statute, too. That said, >> yes, >> that's the minimum. Yeah. >> But our ordinance is at the pol the policy where I think we want it to go, >> right? Do you remember that? I think where we want it to go is that if you're an employee, you can't file for public office, >> right? >> But I'm not I'm not saying that we wanted to go there. >> That's been an effort. >> So they can >> regardless they conflict. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> I don't disagree. >> So they kind of be fixed that they don't conflict. >> That I think we can all agree on. >> Okay. >> So is that from the council that we'd like to change that? >> I think this is fine. Yeah, I think we'd like to change that. I think it make it more of an explicit policy that says this is what this is what we >> Well, the policy is correct. It says any >> correct. I think it's more of a specific policy that we want to make specifically related to public office and employees. I think is what my direction and request is is to make it more explicit instead of having it in the personal policy. >> Oh, you mean correct the ordinance? >> Correct. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> I've got Okay, sounds good. I'll bring it back. >> And now that's all I've got. I actually do have one more thing. >> Go ahead. >> It's a corre Sorry, I'm a little discombobulated. Um, it's a correction for the minutes and it was just my guess a typo from the AI interpreting what I said. So, it's on page five. Um, under the staff consultant and council updates, >> the normal minutes or the work session? >> The normal minutes. Um it says Vanaston requested a future discussion on reviewing homesteading and it should be homesteading um requirements for home exited businesses and it should be home extended businesses. So like I said I think it was just the AI not hearing me correctly but that should be clarified. So >> those will be corrected in the minutes moving forward. >> Yeah. But >> thank you. >> Page five. Okay. That was all my things. >> Anybody else? Okay. Um, we have a motion and a second. All those in favor >> say I. >> I. >> I. >> All those opposed say no. Motion carries 5 to zero for consent. On to open forum. Is anybody here for open forum? Anybody online for open for? We do have one individual who has raised their hand on line. All right. Do you like >> who had to search for that? Uh, >> I did not popped up as a suggestion. I thought it was funny. >> Cool. Okay. Uh, Eric Supple 11534 Brabburn Trail. >> And I guess I'd just like to comment on two uh things. One on agenda item, one a non-aggenda item. Um, so the first being the non-aggenda item. Uh I know there's been discussion and and then the last meeting there was um three river park district was brought in to discuss the trail um along Dayton River Road and the the river and while I understand it's kind of a convoluted issue and and there's residents over there that are against it and therefore they they need to be supported in their opposition. I think from a a resident who lives in a different part of Dayton, um I guess I would hope that this the city and parks commission and those would work with Three Rivers Park District to have a kind of a long-term vision for a greenway of sorts through the city, whether it be in that area or other areas. I know myself as someone who likes to bike and stuff, it's much nicer biking on those or greenway type of areas versus a a trail next to a road. Um, and I think it also too it plays right into um, you know, the the slogan or whatever for Dayton, which is to preserve our rural character. So I think some of that the opposition of we need to preserve some tax base I also get. But at the same time, there's 40 and 60 acre farms that are going to be selling every other year and developing into 100 300 home developments and I feel like that's going to supplement some of that tax base. um where these are opportunities to work with a a local organization uh to hopefully even uh connect uh Elm Creek Park to areas of Dayton through maybe a greenway of sorts. So that's the one item. Uh the other item is just regarding the um agenda item uh V on the aerial truck. And I guess like through the discussion tonight, I if not covered already or mentioned in the past, I'd hope to just get a little context tonight in that discussion on whether or not there is a a fee that the city would be um on the hook for with this cancellation. It looks like and at least some of the contract that's listed in the packet, you know, there could potentially be up to 10 to 20% fee um on the purchase price. And I'm just curious if that is um accurate or not given some of the discussions last year on um having basically an out in the contract to not be responsible. But a couple meetings back that sounding maybe less certain. So I guess that's just my request for that discussion that we can hear about um if there is any fee or penalty or what the likelihood of that is and if so how we ended up in that position. Thank you. >> Thank you. Anybody else? >> Anybody else is on open for Zoom and would like to speak an open forum. Please use the raise your hand function. >> I am not seeing anybody. >> Cool. We will move on. Staff consultant council update. S. >> Yep. Uh good evening members of council. As we approach the holidays, I was looking at the upcoming calendar for staff. Um, it looks as though we will have one single Friday that happens after the Christmas holidays that we will be open. Situation doesn't happen very often, but we'll be open for a 4-hour day on Friday following two days off and then having it followed by a weekend. Doesn't seem like a very good use of resources to have people back for 4 hours on a Friday to have them be back for four hours and then leave again uh for two days. I don't know how much is going to be handled in that time. I did look back at last year and we handled one resident in the two days after Christmas last year on Thursday and Friday in 13 hours of work. So I don't know if it's the best use of resources. My question to the council is are you okay if we closed city hall city offices that day just because it's a 40 day. I understand that we can have people back here. Yes, but just seems >> is it a paid or unpaid benefit if we closed? How does that work? >> Um that's the next question. >> Wow. So we can um we can close city hall at any time that's needed and based on resources we would have them either use vacation time or use it as a as holiday. So we could say and we've done this historically in the past with the day after Thanksgiving that is a day that the offices are closed but city staff has to use vacation time to take that day off. >> Um >> what if someone doesn't have the vacation time to take it off >> then they can work. City officer just closed like you can't don't answer the phone. you can be physically here. Just city officer closed. Residents will be able to come in >> um so they can work and finish up emails or get it caught up with anything. I mean, I don't think city staff has any shortage of work to get done. >> Well, yeah, but so someone didn't have vacation time, they still had the opportunity. >> Correct. Okay. >> It just wouldn't be open for residents to be able to do it. >> They could just not take pay, not >> um you could take it unpaid, I guess, if you really wanted to as well. It just benefits would be then prated, but that's fine. >> But it would be up to an individual who could make that choice. Do you let them borrow vacation if they're if they don't have any? >> We have historically done that. Um we don't do it more than one full day. So they could borrow 4 hours of time if they wanted to and then they go negative for a time frame until the next um what do you want to call the next month, but we don't typically have them go more than one month negative just because historically it can burn people and the employer pretty quickly. So, not saying that people would take advantage of it, but if you >> Yeah, there's somebody Yeah, I just curious because we Yeah, I know. >> So, that's my one question. The council, is it okay to close it? And then how would the council like to handle that? That's a various answer or have a paid holiday. And I'm fine with either way. It does not matter to me. I just think we should close city hall for that day. >> Well, if they take holiday, it does it it take >> if it's holiday, it doesn't come out of vacation time, >> but >> but it would come out of the city would just pay them for that day off. No different than a Christmas and Christmas Eve. I mean, I think it would be the same as the Friday after Thanksgiving, like it's a 4 day and it's a they take it off where if they want to come in and work and just do stuff, um, they can, but to close. So, I'm okay with closing city hall, but it should be handled the same way the Friday after Thanksgiving is. That's my opinion. >> Vacation. >> Vacation. >> Okay, sounds good. I appreciate that. And the staff appreciates that, too, because it allows them to have a longer time with their family, which is appreciated. >> I will be out of the office for two weeks starting on December 22nd. Um, that's just more of an FYI. I want to make sure the next council meeting is on the 23rd of December. At least it's supposed to be very quick meeting. Does anybody have any um objections to moving it to the 30th, which would be the following Tuesday? >> I will not be. >> You will not be around for the 30th. Okay. We only need a quorum of three. Typically, it's just payment of claims. It's nothing like >> the five minute meeting. >> I should be okay. >> Okay. So, the 30th will work. Is 8:00 seem like a good time? Does it work for everybody? >> AM. Yeah. Not 8 o 8 o'clock. p.m. >> Um, no. 8 a.m. >> does not work. >> No, unless you want to come help feed animals with me. >> I can be here by 9:30. >> Time work on the 30th. That's better. >> Anytime after 9:30 a.m., but like I'm not getting up at 5:00 in the morning to feed my animals that I can come here and approve a payment of Clintons. That's not happening. So, but I can be here by 9:30. >> Probably not. I'm having shoulder surgery on the 29th. I don't think I'll be >> 9:30 is fine. >> 9:30 fashion. Does that work? 9:30. Yeah, I'm sure it's all right. >> Okay. And um so we'll work on the 30th. The reason why I asked move to the 30th is because Amy's out for two weeks um recovering from surgery currently. So try to get her another couple of days. It would be nice to be able to allow her to get back into work before she has to be. I mean, it counts me as 5 minutes, >> you know, and and that one we could do that one where just one of us was here, right? >> Correct. Yep. So you could do one here and the other two could be remote. That's totally fine. um in the future. The mayor brought up to me before the council meeting. I want to make sure it's known by the council is that um other I did reach out to other city administrators that don't have a second council meeting in December because they don't want to do payment of claims just like we do right now. And the council passes a resolution andor an approval that gives the city administrator approval to cut checks um like normal and then we would just approve those at the following council meeting in January essentially. And so next year I'll probably look to do that so that nobody has to be bugged for a fiveminute meeting in the morning and then you just give me authorization to cut checks for one time frame and then you just approve those at the next council meeting and they'll be then in two separate buckets between what I approved in the payment of claims and then what the council approves at the actual meeting itself. So that's just a more less FYI in the future. And then just a reminder for everyone watching or the council themselves that there's our all employee year end recap tomorrow in the afternoon. So city offices will be closed at noon. That's all I got. Thank you very much. >> So to clarify, there's no meeting on the 23rd. >> No meeting on 23rd >> and that we'll have a very short like literally 5 minute meeting. >> Literally, I don't even know if it'll be 5 minutes. It might be 1 minute. >> Yeah. >> But and 9:30 cuz Yeah, definitely not get up at 5:00 a.m. for that. >> 9:30 a.m. on the 30 is what I have. >> Yes. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. ready. >> Uh, mayor and council, um, not too much to report tonight. Um, we're moving into snow plowing mo mode pretty quickly here. Um, tomorrow is going to be our third full plow um, call out. Um, we've had a bunch of nuisance snows um, in between things. I just want to remind people that our threshold for full plow is 2 in of snow on the ground um or or more than that. Um, with the less than that, we will keep mains open and just run the mains and emergency routes. And uh, if there's any hazardous areas, we will take care of those. But 2 in is the full plow out. We'll be out at 4:00 in the morning um, tomorrow morning to uh, uh, hopefully get all of this snow off the road in a timely fashion. I do have a couple of guys out running PL uh, plows tonight. They'll be here till 8:00 and then they'll be back in at 4 tomorrow morning. Oh, and just another note, I will be down two drivers um starting uh from Thursday this week. Um I have one guy going out. He's having knee surgery. So, he's going to be out for at least 6 to 8 weeks. And I have another guy out who's uh broken his pelvis, um broken a leg and gashed a knee, um in a chainsaw incident. So, we won't go any further than that. So, yeah, it may take us a little longer to get through routes. Um, I'm I'm back. >> It wasn't on the job, was it? >> No, it wasn't. >> Okay. >> Um, I'm back on the fulltime plow route, so that might may impact some of my other duties. So, >> I wouldn't mind trying that once. I wouldn't mind trying that once. I think he's talking about replace a few mailboxes, but >> Good evening, mayor, members of council. I just want to report back on engine 12. Um, that repair came back roughly around 3,500. So, a little bit less than fully anticipated. Um, that's all I have for this even. >> Good evening, mayor, members of the council. We'll be um doing Shop with the Cop on this Wednesday, December 10th. Um, we have six kids that we'll be bringing. Um, and two officers that will be assisting. >> No, Jason. >> Nothing. >> No report for me. Scott, >> I I just got one little thing that I want us to get to at some point, and it doesn't have to be this one, but I'm hoping that we can get something done at Stevens Park as far as the uh the cover over the uh >> the band show done in 2026. I know the rest of the upgrades are probably 2027, but if if we do look at this cover, we have to get this in order so that we have it in. So, doesn't um weren't we talking about lifting that or uh raising that concrete and adding >> and expanding? >> Yeah, that's not that's not part of this. cuz it that that has nothing to do with getting this ordered. I mean, there's time Marty and I actually looked at that a month or so ago. >> Wouldn't it be a different size? >> Uh, no. Well, 30 by 30 is what this deal is. >> Oh, so it started out bigger. >> So, a little bit bigger than what the stage is. Yeah. The current stage. >> I don't see the rush. I'd rather wait and do the whole thing as a package when we're ready. Personally, >> I would rather Well, the problem with >> I don't want to do peace meal bits and pieces without having to find all plan. >> Sorry, Scott. >> I don't have a problem with it, but I guess what do you guys want to do? >> Yeah, I guess I don't I don't know. How do is is there a timing issue for getting it by next spring? Is that what we're >> Yeah, you got it takes three or four months to get it made. >> And if we're not going to put it in till June or July, then then I we might as well wait, I guess. You know, to me, I'd like to see it in before we start the concert season. >> Yeah. Well, we put this off last year. waiting for this this MSA package and it just seems like it'd be nice to get this moving. Um, I have a question. Um, because I'm not looking at the plan in front of me. The plan for us is to extend the concrete. Correct. And I thought that that whole part was going to be covered by the band or is it just a piece of it covered by the band shell? >> The entire stage would be covered by the band shell. This is a 30 by30 unit. >> Okay. >> And currently currently the stage that's out there is roughly 20 by 30. So you would have 10 ft covered extended out in front of it. >> Did we have dimensions? We didn't do we have dimensions on the plan. Again, I'm not looking at it in front of me for how big the the um concrete slab would be after it was extended. >> So, yeah, we were going to extend the whole of the stage area uh almost to double its size on the master plan and add a dance floor area in front, I think. So, it was going to be extended both sideways. Um so, it' be about 40 by 60. I think it's about 60 ft long. Um, at the end of the day, um, having to talk with Scott, Scott doesn't feel like we need to extend that area, um, any bigger than it is currently. Um, uh, that would be something that, you know, I'd be guided by the council on if, you know, you want to go with what's on the master plan and expand that. Um, the other part of this, um, I'm talking with MSA to get some cost in. We got a $ 1.5 million budget. I want to itemize that budget to see what is the priority, whether putting this on knocks out the ban uh the the splash pad or what we need to have with the splash pad like the bathrooms and parking to make that operable. I think there's some uh decisions that we need to make on where we're going to spend that $ 1.5 million. Um if we can get everything in for the 1.5 million, then that's fine, but I think that we need to, you know, direct the spending of that budget. You know, how you want to spend it. Do do Oh, go ahead. >> Fuzzy, do we have a timeline for that? So, do we know like I know that you're working on that it's the holidays and everything, but do you expect to have that like early in the year or how? >> Second meeting in January is what I'm targeting. >> So, that would still give us if even if it was 3 months from that >> three months day. Well, no, I mean from that day, three months from there, we wouldn't be able to put anything do any work until you know what I mean. We would I think there's time in Okay. >> Yeah. We don't have to decide right now. I mean, we got January. >> Yeah. So, I guess that's what I'm saying is could Marty go and have those conversations and bring back some information and so we could decide if this is the route or if um >> Yeah. I think there's a few things to consider with this as well. If we're adding extra concrete in there, we need to do some civil engineering and other stuff like that. So, there will be additional costs that way as well. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. I just wanted to bring it to attention because otherwise it'll be October. Well, that's that and that's why I was asking about the timeline because if we're thinking that we're not going to hear back from them for another four or five months, that's a different story than, you know, second week in January being the target. And I would rather have more information than us say yes and then, >> you know, we bought something that we're then kind of having to work around. So, >> that's kind of where I was coming from. >> You have anything else? >> No. >> Um, I did have a resident reach out about um some question about some of our older signage. Um, that >> more than one. >> Oh, yeah. A little some historic signage maybe. Um, and about whether or not there's any plans to update that signage. Um, and I didn't know the answer to that question. So, >> yeah, Mayor Council U Mart and I talked about this just today. So, very relevant conversation. Um, you will have an item I think we're planning on either the 13th or the 27th of January to have an item in front of you guys related to branding >> before we make any decisions related to signage. >> Totally fair. So, um, we'll have that conversation in the 13th or 27th of January. >> Branding is in maybe looking at our branding. >> City branding. That's correct. >> Sweet. >> I would prefer not to spend any more resident tax dollars on signage that we need to replace if you do not like the branding of the city currently. >> Yes. >> Um, we would like to keep the branding consistent wherever that is. And the more signs we put up to then change the branding costs more money. >> So, I prefer to only change one or two or all of our logo signs or whatever. Yeah, >> and I will work on that and we'll >> But I really like my hoodie. I don't want to >> Yep. So, that'll come back in January. >> Okay. I have another like kind of maybe off-the-wall question and then this may just be my sentimental nature. Um but that sign's been there for a really long time. So, is there some way we can I don't want to Listen, I understand that things need to be updated. you. I get all of that, but is maybe the sentimental part of me, I don't know how we're going to do this, but is there some way to >> save it, preserve it, put it back, >> preserve it somewhere? It could be a beautiful I it was something that was been there for a really long time and some members of the community were pretty felt very strongly about that >> and I think there's a way to preserve our heritage, but also like move and look towards the future. So again, I don't know how you go about doing that, but if we could >> Are you talking about just keeping it somewhere or fixing what's in place and then dealing with new stuff later? >> I'm talking about keeping it somewhere. And I we need to move into the I don't know what the what the correct answer is here, but I do agree with our branding needing to be the same. And so if you've assigned one place, it should match in other places, but I don't think that let's, you know, take it down and huck it into the dumpster is the answer, I guess, >> is what I'm kind of getting at. So, if we can find some creative way to do something, I think that >> Yeah, Martin and I had the same conversation. I agreed exactly that we should keep some sort of homage to the history that of us um and that we should have some sort of way to um whether that's restoring those a little bit so that you can see what they were like or just keep them in their same kind of >> um status that they are today and being able to keep them somewhere and put them somewhere in some sort of I don't know his >> like an activity center have a wall with some historic photos. We'll figure out something so they are. >> Could we put them at Elsie Steel? Because we do like a cuz you know they in the plan they had that where you walked down and Elsie Stevens had that art whatever like could we say you know here's our it doesn't have to be in the middle but could it go somewhere and say this was you know where we've been our heritage and maybe have >> there's a lot of things in in LC Stevens that there you know there is a lot of opportunity to put some heritage stuffs in that area you know for you know all of day and not just there. Yeah, >> we did even think about moving the um old um town hall down there um as some kind of a building there. So, there are quite a few of those ideas out there. >> You mean my neighbor? >> Yeah, your neighbor. He's complaining about you. >> How many times have I had to drive to that thing my kids to get out and stand in front of? >> Yeah, city staff is aware of it and we'll do what we can to make sure that we save that. And >> I wonder I think it's the one on Fernbrook that's kind of falling down. Maybe that one could get rescued. so that it doesn't end up getting destroyed. >> Bootload of people in construction of all things that were willing to resurrect that sign. We will uh yeah something we'll go back in January and then um what happens with that conversation will then get under conversations related to the science >> I think open to all options right just >> but specifically to that one on Fernbrook I was approached by uh Dayton Lions that they would want to do some restoration work on that and just you know preserve it until we get to uh the final sign design. >> His kid actually he helped build them. >> Jack is that you're talking about >> from the Lions. >> Yeah. John Kudson spoke to me. >> Oh, John. Okay. >> One of the members, his son actually helped build those things. So, yeah. >> Anything else? >> I left my notes at home cuz I frantically tried to get here. That's what I remembered. >> Disheveled. >> I was >> I have nothing. >> I'm a hot mess tonight. Sorry. >> I just wanted to say thank you to the staff for all the work they put into the Holly Dayton parade. >> Oh, yeah. That was cold. you know, and um you know, shout out to the residents who uh braved the the weather. I guess it it's worse tonight, but uh it wasn't that that great for watching a parade and I was impressed by all the little kids that were out there um because they they looked cold, but they uh it was a great event and I'm I just wanted to say thank you for all your work that went into that. >> That's all I got. So, >> I have another question for Marty. Oh, sorry. Um, I had heard a resident talking about our fire hydrants. So, I have a question about like hydrant testing and flushing. Um, are we only testing at like the end of the trunk line or are we like do we test every hydrant? >> So, um, we have two different areas. um the Maple Grove area that we're supply supplied by Maple Grove, they have clean water in there. And so um in a lot of areas there, we will just we do a rotational thing. So we will select an area um and then we will just do the end of the line on those ones. And then the we'll do another area and we'll do all of the hydrants. So it's on a four-year rotation. So basically that area is a quadrant. Um, every four years every hydrant gets tested. >> Okay. >> In the northeast part of town, every hydrant is tested every time that we go out. We have to flush everything because we got so much iron in the water. We need to flush that out the pipes because the water from Maple Grove is treated already. We don't have that same issue. >> Okay. So, right now, do we have hydrants that don't that aren't operational? And like what's the process if we somebody ran into one that wasn't? Um >> you you would like what's the process for someone to tell you that? >> Well, generally if somebody finds one either they'll report it to the fire department or myself um and then we will go out and we have the ability to take the hydrant apart and put it back together, replace parts and all that good stuff. So if there if somebody finds a hydrant that's not working, they can get a hold of me and I will schedule that and get get a crew out to test it out. >> Do we have any right now that we know for sure? Not >> I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of. >> I was I it's something that I had heard this idea of like ghost hydrants that don't work and so I was like oh like is that a thing and how would somebody go about letting you know or what's the process for that? >> No, I mean all the ones over here we are definitely testing them and the ones over there like I said on a 4-year rotation. I mean I can't it's because of the way Maple Grove operates. That's the way that they operate their system. It minimizes water wastage and stuff like that. So that's how they want to operate it and it makes sense to do it that way for them. >> Okay. Yeah. I just if we had ones that weren't operational, that's a pretty big issue that we should definitely do something about. So I feel a lot better. So thank you so much, Marty. >> Anything else? >> All right. Item N. Sorry, did I give you kind of a empty look? You want me to do Good evening, mayors, members of council. Um, this is the reason why we have to hold the council meeting tonight is because we have a public hearing. This went on everyone's tax statements. So, the reason why we can't change a meeting is because of this reason is we have a TNT meeting tonight. Um, historically, if we either or in the future, if we do have a meeting like this and there's this bad weather, we will we'll certainly try to look to reschedule it. Um, but we have to have this item. So, truth 2026 budget. Hopefully, no one's surprised by any of the things in here. I tried to just provide this mostly for the residents so they have information. Um we did approve a preliminary levy and budget on September 9th of this year. We will approve it hopefully tonight. Um final levy and budget that'll be later on the council meeting and then we'll certify the levy which I can't spell correctly obviously December 31st of 2025. It's not levy, it's levy. So doing well so far. Um 2025 legislative session impacts um one of the items that we did update our personal policies related to the brakes. That was one item that was updated that was done by our HR firm. Now it's every six hours we are required to give them a 15 minute rest break and a 30 minute break for a meal instead of eight hours which was previously um January 2026 which I think most people are aware of is the paid family medical leave that begins. Um that was not a new legislative session in 2025 but I do want to make sure everyone's aware of that that does start in January 2026. The 888% payroll tax um can be split. We were able to do a private party at 74% and we just did a 50-50 split of that. So, that did save the city and employees a little bit of dollars. It's not a lot, but it is something. And then there was some updates and changes to the earned safe and sick leave um related to how that can be used and who's classified to be able to utilize it. And that you can give that all to them up front if you want to. Um, currently our sick leave balance meets the ESST bank. So, we don't have to make any changes besides put a slash and ESST on our sick leave balance and call it a day. So, nothing too crazy and major. tax levy parameters and information. This is more or less just for everybody to be aware of that a 1% tax rate change is equivalent to $54 a year for the average home. That's a $534,000 house. 1% tax rate is equivalent to roughly $242,000 for the city. So $54 a year for residents, $242,000 for us roughly. 1% tax levy increase is equivalent to 88,000. So there's a difference between the tax rate and the tax levy. Um CPI increase for their one year is 1.8%. 28%. In the last two months or from September in September 2025, it was8%. And that um one thing that is commonly misunderstood is that when there's more building in a city, we get more dollars. That is not correct. That just means everyone shares a little less of the pie. So tax dollars received by the city do not change for the entire year. Um we can't all of a sudden get more dollars in because more building activity happens or we get more houses or more businesses. They provide no more tax dollars than before, but they just divvy up the pie a little more for everybody. And we still get the same amount of dollars to operate on as we did today versus what we did last year and two years ago. How our property tax is calculated. This is also something that people just don't understand how it's done and I understand. Um the first process is done is how much it's going to cost us to run the city. That's whether it's operations, debt, or capital. We then subtracted any other revenue sources that we know of. Those could be grants, those can be state aids, those could be interest, um they can be um services that we do, whatever it may be. And whatever basically that difference is, it equals the levy. So that's how the levy is determined. And then the rate equals the levy divided by the capacity. And that's how I mentioned the last slide. $88,000 of levy increase for 1% is not the same as 1% tax rate increase. That is a $242,000 number. Assessed value of your home is taxed by the rate to give you the tax that you have. You may have credits or refunds that come that gives you your net tax and then next net tax equals your property taxes. Homeowner pays the property tax to the county. County county takes those taxes, divides them up and then gives them either to us at the school district or the mosquito control district or um the state or whoever may have. And then we receive that tax settlement twice a year just like you pay on your property taxes. 2026 proposed levy um for this year going forward is 7.16% increase or $628,000. That is down from what you may have signed your property tax statement um about 1.71% or 1.81% sorry um from 8.97% um from the preliminary tax levy statement. So what you saw in your preliminary tax levy statement is not correct for the city portion. I can't speak for the county portion and I can't speak for the school district portion, but I can't speak for the city portion that it will be lower when you get your final tax levy or tax settlement in March with your valuation for 2027 um than you would have seen on your preliminary one that you received in it was in November I believe is when those went out. Tax capacity over the last 5 years as you are all aware likely that we have seen significant growth. We've almost we've over doubled um our tax capacity growth um in the past 5 years. Currently just under $30 million of tax capacity. That has changed significantly in both residential which has doubled since 2021 2022 payear. All but the commercial industrial one is what we've seen a lot of increase on. um we've quadrupled that in the past 5 years which is helpful for the residential side of things that they are not burdening or bearing all of the weight of the tax levy which I think has been noted by individuals on this council and past councils that I've worked with that um it's very heavily weighted on the residential side of things and it is starting to be a little more evened out in Dayton overall. So that is good news. tax living compared to tax capacity. The black line is the tax capacity number. Um mentioned this before, but the difference between the bar on the bottom and the line up top is the what the tax rate ends up being. So if you look back in 2019 2020, those are about 50%. That's about what our tax rate was back in that time frame. As you look at it now, it's about a third of the way up there, which is about what our tax rate is right now, which is 35.394%. Um the different bars on there depend on where the levy's going to. Most of them were debt service a few years ago. Those soon enough dropped off significantly. We only have $210,000 of debt service levy that we do now. And the rest is mostly general fund operations. Impact of homeowners. This is what you should see if your property did not change value from 2025 to 2026. That's probably a very minute number of people. I understand that. I think the average increase was like 1 point something percent this year in the city of Dayton. So you will probably will see a slight increase in your taxes, but that is based on the valuation of your home, not based on the the fact that the city is taxing more dollars. Um we are tax rate is the exact same as it was last year in 26 for 25. And so you should see no change if your valuation did not change from the city of Dayton's portion only. I cannot again speak for the county, the school district, or anybody else. This is just some more five-year historical data. That's good to know. Um I did note this earlier on the right hand side graph. You did see that the rate is almost 50%. That's um payable 2022. Now it's around 35.395 or 394%. Um the lefth hand graph shows the difference between what the capacity change was and the tax levy change. These are not one to one ratios. However, they are very closely related. So if the red bar on the right side is the same height as the bar on the left side, then the typically the tax rate stays very close or the same. If there's a big difference, as you can see in 2023, there's a large difference between those two. That's where you see the tax levy or the tax rate decrease happen between 22 and 23 is because of so much more capacity and we're only levying a small amount of dollars. One thing that should be known about that year is we um transferred some money from one fund in from debt and had it expire and so we didn't actually have to increase it by anything to get more dollars for operations. We just moved levy dollars from debt into operations. So that's why there was such a significantly low increase in tax levy that year. >> There was a lot of stars that lined up that that year >> that a lot of stars lined up. Yep. But that helped with a large decrease of the tax rate which I think a lot of residents would be thankful for. >> Okay. >> 2026 tax rate comparisons. I did get the preliminary numbers from Henipin County. Um we are one of the lower ones. If I would have sat back here 5 years ago when I started here, we would have been one of the higher ones. Um so I don't that's again something that related to just tax capacity or changes or how things work, but we are one of the lower ones. We have significantly stayed about the same. again. Um, cities that we've always been compared to, Rogers, Champlain, um, probably those two are the main two we get compared to often. Those have increased every year in the past three years or two years. Um, Corkran took a huge increase this year. I don't know what's going on in Corkran, but they got a large increase going on. So, they jumped up quite a bit, but >> they're they're at 28 29 thing that we're looking at. That's what they're hitting right now. >> Well, we're five years behind, so we'll get there or three year, whatever that number is. Um the the biggest thing for me was that Maple Grove is did go up this year which I was very surprised on because seems to be Maple Grove has an limited source of money but that's just me. >> Plymouth got it from them this year apparently. >> Apparently key changes um general fund revenues. We had an increase in state aid dollars that were received. Um key changes in the general fund expenditures. We had one additional staff. We have a restructured fire department working schedule. two part-time public works employees shifted to one full-time public works employee in 2026. Otherwise, it just increases of generic historical trends like everyone sees. Whether you go to grocery store, go to Home Depot, or go to Walmart, you're going to pay more for what you paid. Same thing for last year. And the other main thing was the increase in union negotiated contracts from revenues. These aren't nearly as fun to look at as most people, but the pie on the left kind of shows where their money comes from. about 75% of our revenue comes from property taxes. The rest come from various other points whether that's intergovernmental revenue, licenses and permits. Most of those licenses and permits are related to building activity. And then um interest in earnings as well has been consistently about $80,000. Um so I think in total I think last year I don't want to this year so far I think we're about $750,000 of interest a year in the year earned so far. Um, that's an impressive amount of money that's able to come back into the city to be able to help fund operations and help fund capital improvements. So, that should be something we should be proud of. I think I said I think it's just short of 800 grand and that's through the end of November. General fund expenditures, nothing too crazy to write home about. Ones that stick out hard are the patrol and that's related to union contract negotiations. um central services. That's kind of a little bit of an anomaly because what we did this year is we took everyone's individual line items for electric utilities, gas utilities, um postage, basically things that the department heads had no control over and put it into central services because they have no control over it anyways. Um they can't control the electricity, they can't control can't control the heat, and so it's all under central services because it's just one bucket of money that pays for it anyways. Um, it's hard to keep the department heads on the h on the ticket for, okay, your electrics go went too high, you need to shut the lights off. It's kind of hard to operate the city like that. So, um, we decided that as department heads and myself, we decided that it would be easier just to keep it in one bucket so that everyone has a shared aspect of that. Those are kind of the two main changes that happened. Any questions on the two of those? I I have no issue with it all going into one bucket, but I'm hoping that we still take a look at it to make sure there isn't something like a leak somewhere that we're not like that's okay. >> Yeah, it won't get lost. It just means that I'm looking at it probably a little bit more scrutiny than I'm looking and say, "Hey, change what's going on over there." And >> Oh, yeah. It's not like a budget thing. It's just like I don't I want to make sure that it's still not getting lost in the whole shuffle that we might not have like hey the door isn't shutting tight and so we're losing like >> and those will be reviewed based on our you know accounting technician looks at every bill and she'll say oh this bill is way higher and she'll send it to me and say hey this bill is way higher than it was last month I don't know why but it might be >> and then I'll reach out to the department and say what's going on whether that's in the fire department or in the public or whoever it is >> it won't be lost by any means but it's just easier for the for tracking instead of looking at the department I just say manage Atlanta and that you have no control over. >> Dr. Thank you for that clarification. >> Yep. Uh 2026 utility fund budget. I'm going to hit on these really quickly just cuz um these are something that we have to approve as well as part of this. Um we looked at these already. Um nothing major change between water fund. We are looking at a 4% increase. I know these are really small and really hard to see and I apologize. I can't make them any bigger without losing the entire screen, but um basically there's ma majorly no changes. Water is really dependent on what is happening in the world as in weather. Um, two years ago, we had our highest sales ever and we thought it was going to go through the roof. And then last year we had a wet year and we didn't sell any water at all and everyone's looking at me like, "Why did you budget so much money?" And then um there is an offset always for expenditures. So if there we aren't pumping the water to the ground, there's no expenditure for electricity. There's no expenditure for the DNR. There's no expenditure for, you know, repairs or whatnot. So then those typically come out in the wash anyways. It's very similar to inspections and building permits is that we don't have any building permits. We typically don't pay for inspections. So, they're kind of one and the same. If I budget for a ton of revenues on permits and there's no permits to come in, we don't typically pay as much on expenditures for the inspections department than we would if there was a ton of permits. Same thing with the sewer fund. Again, very stagnant. The sewer fund is a little easier to guess and check because it's based on an average and those are taken in March of every year and that's based on your January and February usage. Um, and so those two usages end up being the usage for the year. If you use less, let's say you vacation in your cabin all summer long, you pay the lesser of the value of your usage in March or whenever you use that those two months because we build by monthly. So, it's never going to be higher than that number, but it could be lower. Um, and those are obviously based on the fact of your usages. So going to feel like charging people sewer if you're not going to be using it, but we need to charge people sewer if they're going to be using it for their normal operations, which would typically be January and February is their normal um day-to-day things that they're doing. So >> you mentioned in might have been the narrative for the long-term plan, but um since this is essentially a pass through to the Met Council. >> Yes. Um, I thought there was some concern about increasing rates that the Met Council was going to be increasing sewer rates and I guess my question is are are we keeping track of that and are we adjusting ours accordingly? >> Yes. So, we are keeping track of those things. I did not see as large of increase. So, it is one year delayed. So, if they have an increase, they set their budgets and I don't know how they do this, but they set their budgets in the middle of the previous year. So, I already know what we're going to pay in 2026 for the whole year. And that's what's in this budget and that's what I base our revenues off of. But we might say and hear an increase. Okay, Mechals is going to increase their rates. Well, that won't happen technically till 2026 for 2027 year of operations that we see. I don't know how they budget everything because everything I know exactly what I'm going to pay Matt Council. We're going to pay Matt Council next year no matter what. We could flush the toilet 5,000 times extra this next year and we pay no more dollars to Met Council than we did this year. Um based on what they're they give me as a number. So, um, as we do the budget every year, I look and see what is my council going to charge us and make sure that that keeps up with our rates. It's a little convoluted and weird and I don't know how they do their budgeting to be honest with you. I've asked that question every time they give me the number and I go, "How do you know what you're going to charge me next year?" And they say, "This is what we're going to charge you." So, that that went up a h 100red grand. Yeah. But then we also have how many more homes that are going to come in and probably offset that $100,000 increase. I would propose that increase will continue to go up and maybe more in 2027 if their rates are going to go up for their charges per thousand gallons, which they'll set in 26, but obviously not charges until 27. So, it's a little delayed, but great question. >> Okay, thanks. >> Yes, thank you. This is the utility rates that were proposed. I've already showed this to the council. There's nothing changed since October that we talked um about right dead center of the pack. Um, we understand that our water is more expensive, but most of these communities around us are already either built up and funding their services or not. What thing we do have going for us is that we don't have a wastewater treatment plant like some of these communities up here do and those can fluctuate those rates significantly. So, um, like Monaceel might have cheap rates right now, but if they have a wastewater treatment plant they got to put in, I guarantee that rate's going to double because that's just what's going to happen. So, um, we're always trying to be right in the middle of pack. We're not the highest, we're not the lowest. That's always been the goal, at least from staff's perspectives. 4% water incre water rate increase, 1% for sewer. Um I try to pride myself on being as best we can and fiscally responsible for 5%. That's typically what I try to keep it to cuz um we all know that increases happen, but a 5% increase seems reasonable for a total bill because the resident doesn't care who they pay. They're going to pay 5% more. And so I try to keep that cognizant when I'm putting the budgets together of where can we adjust things um as best we can. There have been years in the past that have done a 5% increase on water and zero on sewer because I know that their water rates need it and the sewer rates don't need it. So guess I'll stand for any questions if any. Otherwise it is a public hearing mayor and we'll have to make sure we open that and then close. >> Are there any questions for staff? >> No. >> All right. I'll open the public hearing. Is anybody here to speak to this? Anybody online? Pause for dramatic effect. Click. >> There's anybody online that like to speak for the public um hearing for uh TNT? Please raise your hand. I am not seeing anything there. >> Okay. I'll close the meeting. We'll discuss the rest later on the meeting, but after the TNT first. Thank you. >> All right, we are on to item O. >> Somehow we already managed to get a half over. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. We have one vacancy on the EDA for uh the term ending 2025. Um, we advertised on the city's website as well as the city's uh social media. We had one applicant. Uh, deadline to respond was December 1st. So, uh, Tim Hutner was the applicant. He currently serves as chair of the EDA. >> Well, I have so I have a little bit of a question. Um, Tim was recently appointed to the Champlain City Council, was he not? >> Yes. Yes, sir. Um, congratulations. But I kind of have an issue with uh someone who is on another city's city council being on our EDA. Um, for example, Graco just came and they were debating between us and Rogers, right? And they happen to choose us. What if the next kind of big thing is choosing between us and Champlain? Um, and then this puts Tim in a really awkward position because he now has a conflict of interest and would not be able to fully participate on either side because here's this, you know, organization deciding between us. So, it's not I have no nothing against Tim Hutner. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a council member from another city being on our EDA. Um, and I don't know I don't know what to do with that because there's only it's not like there's another applicant. So, um I don't know. >> Yep. If I could just add some a little bit of clarity. So, >> the I apologize for not saying this here earlier. The EDA exist consists of seven members. Uh two of them are council members that are appointed to the EDA and then five members appointed by the council. It's not required that you be a resident of Dayton. You do have to have a business interest within Dayton. So, >> yeah. going back to, you know, why do we have an ED member that's on the Champlain City Council because they're a resident of Champlain rather than >> Well, the resident issue is as I have no problem with the resident issue. It's the like I said like it >> the Graco situation had that been us and Champlain instead of us and Rogers, >> that could have been really awkward and messy. Um, now this is I believe he's appointed until May, correct? And there's a special election. >> That is correct. >> Um, and seven, the EDA has seven members. None of our other groups have seven members. So, a question I was just putting out there is, would it be possible to postpone this appointment and possibly have instead of two city council members voting, only have one city council member as a voting member, so there's still an odd number of voting members on the EDA? And then revisit this in May. Is that possible? state statute that covers that. >> I don't know. >> So, um, mayor, members of council, the current bylaws for the EDA right that you can have 527 members >> specifically for the reason of we had one member who dropped off, we had only six members. We could not technically operate as the EDA because of that reason. So, we updated the bylaws to say 527 members. >> Okay. >> So, whether that's a um you'd have to have any member on the EDA would be a voting member. So, there's no way to do what you're requesting because we're asset. However, you could still operate with six because the EDA bylaws state 527 members and that was specifically updated related to a situation we had. I think it was 2 years ago, but I could be wrong on timing, but >> and then we could revisit it in May once we no longer have this potential conflict of interest. >> So, I I specifically asked um him that question >> and he did say he would abstain. >> Okay. Um to my knowledge we we haven't seen that. It's possible we'll see that. My concern is is that Tim has done a lot to push this group to move this group. >> Oh yeah. >> Um and I don't I don't want to lose that. But and it is hard enough to get EDA volunteers. In fact, um I think the last opening we had for quite a while, didn't we? Uh well, we we had an opening earlier in the year where we had I think three applicants for one position. >> So if I'm the only other if I'm the only person with this concern then obviously but I just it was a and again it's not about Tim has nothing to do with the person. It has to do with this idea of >> that conflict of interest and then >> I think the situation is you know could occur. it, you know, it doesn't seem to happen very often, but it certainly could. And I think that we would expect him to acknowledge that conflict of interest and and step aside. So, I I mean, I I think that that concern comes up with with all of us in one way or another and and we just have to be doing the right thing. Um, he hasn't shown that he won't. So I I guess you know I would make the motion to approve Tim Hutner's um renewal for this term. Um yeah, I I will step mayor on council. I did have a conversation with Tim Her um because I think it's important that he knows I I say to my point to him I think it becomes very difficult when you have somebody on both boards because of the fact that you could have items that come up that you have no idea and not saying that he wouldn't um abstain from any votes but now you've lost a voice of your business depart businesses in town that you now have that you respect and want to know all their opinion that can no longer give you their opinion. And so what value does that position bring to have that? Um I tried to do some different analogies as best as I could and it would be similar to having I own bare paint as the company. I own that company and I'm also on the board of Home Depot. If there comes a conflict between what's the price of paint in the store, which area am I on? Am I on the board for Home Depot or am I on the paint owner company? And so it just comes like you now want to have on both sides, but now you've lost your voice on both sides because you can't be on the >> you can't be on either side. >> You can't be on the other side because you can't be the owner, nor can you be the board member. And I use that as a maybe that's a larger example of it, but I I tried to paint a try to picture of like what does it look like? And I've been open and honest with Tim that it has nothing to do with Tim himself. It could be any one of you as well being on Champlain's EDA. It just seems very, >> you know, when I had heard this, that was my knee-jerk reaction, too, except uh as I've talked to people. So, the worst conflict he could have was he's picking sides. That's the worst choice. Either way, one of his EDAs is going to get this company. Um, I just think he's done so much for our EA that and like I said, he's he said he was willing to step aside if the situation come up. I I I could see something like that happening between us and Rogers far more likely than us and Chapel. Um because of the environment. >> Important to note that there are seven members. Like it's not like he solely is making all of the decisions. >> Yep. >> Um so I will second your motion, David. >> And is that for the six-year term? >> Yes. >> Correct. >> Okay. I just want to make sure it's clarified. Thank you. >> Any more discussion? >> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. All those opposed say no. >> Motion carries 5 to zero. And item P. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh item P is amendment to an interim use permit for home home extended business located at 15430 Brockton Lane. Uh so this this is a IEP that was approved in February of 2025 for homeless business for a a driveway contractor. Uh one of the conditions of approval was to require that the north driveway um be removed. And the intention of this is that by removing the north driveway, it provides a little bit of um space between uh noise generated activity in the neighbor's home. Um in uh in the reality of of how that I'm sorry. So the the area that was intended to be removed is the red area and the conditions that be removed by the end of this year. Um the property owner had made some improvements in this blue area uh which is kind of a hill up through here. Um the result of operating on the south side of the property and getting up this hill is that the for the trucks to get up the hill, trucks are noisier um going on the south driveway than they are on the north driveway. Uh the applicant is requesting that that item be removed. uh that requirement to remove the north driveway uh allowing it to stay. Um also while uh we're at the the point of or in the process of considering amendments um the applicant is also asking to uh extend the IEP for a total of five years whereas it was approved for three years. And this is the north driveway that would be re that is required to be removed by the end of this year. Um this was re or I should say the plan commission held a public hearing on December 3rd. Uh the commission had a 2- two vote uh which nullifies any recommendation. So for both the uh the removal of the north driveway as far as well as the extension of the IEP for a total of 5 years. So there's no recommendation from the plan commission. >> Any questions for staff? >> So that allows a circular route if that's left, right? Instead of correct having to go up that nasty >> Yeah. So the blue area circular route >> the and the planning commission I think in at least on that one didn't want to take a position because they didn't want to counter what we had requested in the past. So they just didn't >> Yes. Correct. So this recommendation was from the city council not the recommendation to remove the driveway was a re a requirement of the city council not of the planning commission. I have a question because this came up a while ago and I was trying to find my notes, but wasn't there some sort of a issue with how close the pavement was or there wasn't a permit? There was there was issues with where that driveway is >> existing is anyway. >> Yeah. So, there's questions of where is the property line, how close the north driveway is to the property line. >> Um, and I believe it is 10 at least a 10 foot difference between the two. And what is the setback requirement >> to get the time? Nobody knew what the answer was. >> Yes, I remember there being some sort of issue. We had just we talked about this one in length if I'm remembering correctly. >> No, it's Yeah, >> I got a couple questions for the applicant and the uh the neighbor both are here. >> I have any more questions for staff? >> No. >> Okay. You want to the applicant want to come forward? >> Can we take questions from the >> Yeah, we will. >> Can we do it now? >> Um, >> we'll get questions to the applicant first. My question would be, and I actually came out and looked at this last spring summer, um I'm guessing the driveway has not been moved yet. I put the um first I went and talked to the neighbor, asked him, "How has it been?" Then I went and found out that it's it's been he'll speak for himself. I won't speak for him. >> Yeah. But then I looked at its benefit for the road and if I rip it out, it's done. So I applied for this. No, I have not ripped it out yet because I wanted to come ask because one thing you caught me really off guard and you put me on the back of my heels and you were right is that you asked is it 10 ft. I could not answer you yes or no. It is 10 ft. It always has been 10 feet. I just couldn't answer you that day because I didn't measure it. So, out of respect, I wanted to come in the head at my notes to say to you is that um I looked at the ordinances for what the city was and it's 5T, but when you look at agricultural, I learned that night and I was wrong that it's 10 ft. But I was still in compliance the whole time. Yep. >> In fact, it's only 10 feet for about um maybe 20 feet and then it goes up and away farther. So as it gets, you know, up the hill, it goes more and more up to probably almost 15 to 18 feet at the very top. >> Okay. So the question then then the next issue would be if we require you to take that out. How are you going to take that out now that the ground is starting to freeze? >> Um I will take it out if you need to while we bring in bigger machinery. >> Okay. >> Um because I want to make sure I'm following what the rules are. But when I take that out, it's going to disturb way. You know, I do want to apologize to the neighbor and I have before is when that was put in. One thing more that for the city council is you said it looks paved and I in my head I'm going it's not paved. It's been patched with pieces of asphalt. Piece of asphalt and that summer that when I was doing that with pieces the big roller that I brought back and forth that is what was bothering the neighbor because it vibrated the ground and made noise. Now I'm not doing that anymore. But if it needs to be removed because I'm told I have to I have to comply. I don't have a choice. Um but I wanted to say for coming in front it makes more sense because I don't have to back up as much if I keep it. So for me the investment of coming in front of John and Hayden and asking this is to basically make the business a better you know a better business. I mean so that it's less impact to the environment around. So when you do this, it's just a full circle. >> A full circle. So then I don't have the thing, >> right? I won't have to back up. Back up. Back up and try to get >> I understand that beeping carries for miles. >> I understand it's simpler to do it that way. And it caused >> Yeah. >> I mean, the driveway be where it is, it caused issues with the neighbor. And now I'm going to say if the neighbor's fine with it, you I see you put up the fence. >> That was a requirement asked of me. I did it right away. I cleaned up first what was required of me. I mean, I have tried to do everything the right way. I've been told by the city council and I was also told by the planning commission last week, you're not a a business that we like or the piece, I don't remember the words cuz I'm nervous right now. But I've tried to do everything right. I came to the city, I asked what to do. They said, don't do anything. It's really not a big deal unless there's a problem. So then that was staffing piece that that came through. So now I did the right thing. As soon as something goes wrong, I come in front of you. try to do the right thing each time because one, my name's on it and that's important to me to do things right. So, I wanted to apologize that yeah, you set me back on my heels. I should have known that for agricultural, but I don't do a lot of agricultural pieces like that. So, I've learned and then I've also made sure that I was doing it right. I did it right in the first place. >> And all your treasures on the north side of that fence are now on your side. Correct. >> No, nothing's on the north side. It's just wood chips. >> It It wasn't that way before. >> Right. And some of that stuff was my own personal stuff because I did scrapping on the side which had nothing to do with the business itself. >> No, I did. >> But no, I moved everything over to the other side to respect that. And I'm putting wood chips there >> to try to keep down the uh the stuff on the ground and allow moisture to be in the ground. It'll take a lot more if I go to rip this out. It wouldn't be wise to do for the ground, but this time of year would not be the year to take it out because it's going to take ground with it and the frost. And and I also put down a blanket in there so that it does for deteriorating the ground so I didn't have to put as much base. So there's a layer of um felt then the base and then the patches of asphalt. >> So you're talking that the picture on the right, >> correct? >> It's where the the the felt is now >> underneath the patches. >> Okay. Because the fell wasn't there before. >> Correct. >> Well, now tell indirectly what you're telling me is you didn't plan on taking the driveway out anyway. >> No, I never put the asphalt I've never did anything to the driveway since I've seen you. >> Okay. Um I haven't put any more asphalt down. The bothering of the roller is what bothered, you know, making the vibrating in the ground. That was all done the year before. So this is 2 years old. Nothing's been done to it. So I have not added anything to it. changed anything. All I'm asking is you asking me to remove it and I didn't change anything to it and I'm saying it's really a foolish thing to remove it because I reduce noise by having it because now going up that other higher spot I'm hitting our prems that are high and it's roaring and I'll be honest, safety for the trucks. If something goes wrong, I'm going down that hill backwards. But that's not anybody's problem but mine, I guess. >> I hope the truck's better than that. You're driving a manual with 50 ton so anything can go wrong I try to plan for it. >> Oh >> that's mainly the question I have is >> I mean he's >> I followed the right rules. I just >> whether or not the fence is good enough. I guess we'll find out shortly. >> Any other questions that would >> I don't >> and I want to do the right thing. So anything you guys have asked and you know >> All right. >> Thank you. >> You can come up. >> My name is Daryl Zer. I live on the uh north uh side of the property. I have a procedural question. Last year we had the hearing and before the vote you announced that you're related to John. >> Yep. >> So you didn't vote. Why did you not recuse yourself for the hearing? Why I from my knowledge of Robert's order parliamentary procedure, >> you shouldn't have been involved in any of the influencing the other council members. Yep. >> Why did you not do that? >> Uh this time because >> last time too. Why? Why did you not recuse yourself? >> Uh didn't vote. I don't remember if I had much of the discussion. >> Yeah, you did. You did. >> Okay. I I can't answer that. >> You contradicted me a couple times. >> Okay. >> And you have a tremendous effect on everybody here. You're you have an important job. >> You have an effect on the council members opinions, their vote, and I feel like you're related to the applicant. >> I We found out a year ago we are cousins. Yes. >> Well, and that was before this happened. >> Yes. And you you should have recused yourself. >> I I did from the vote and this time I'm not going to because I've talked to enough people that believe that that was uh for lack of a better term anal. Um I do not have a financial interest in this whatsoever. Um I found out I'm >> relative. >> What? >> You're a relative. >> True. >> Can't get beyond that. It's conflict of interest. >> I can get beyond that if I was in finance. You say you can, but the perception to me at least is that you're not. >> Mr. Mayor, if I could go ahead, usually with the family relation, um, if there's a conflict of interest, it usually only extends to immediate family members like a spouse or a sibling or a child. Um, a cousin isn't isn't an automat usually like, >> well, >> is it not always? >> No, >> not always. No, I mean there there are different ways that a conflict of interest can exist. Um, >> if it was important enough to announce that you weren't going to be voting, I'm wondering why you did not recuse yourself for the hearing. >> I I guess I can't answer that from back then. Uh, but I can tell you that >> I think that's very unfair to me. >> Okay. Well, I shouldn't have recused myself. That might have been worse for you. >> I don't believe it would have been, though. >> Okay. Well, so yeah. and for what it's worth um is not always required um where there's if unless there's a statutory conflict of interest which doesn't exist here as I understand it um >> isn't it a courtesy >> it's usually in the it really comes down to the discretion of the elected official whether they whether they feel that they can act objectively um but when it comes to recusing from both the discussion and the vote. That's usually only where there's a statutory um conflict of interest established. Um so if it is possible for a council member to participate in the deliberations and then abstain from the vote, it's just it really is >> where I kind of put myself at at that point. >> Um and like I said, I've talked to enough people now where >> I can understand it not being against the law, but I can't understand it being being right. Well, I do represent everybody in the city, including the applicant. And so when you abstain, you do lose that vote. I mean, we just talked about that with the EDA member. Did you have I was in the impression you had questions for the applicant, those not so much. >> Pardon me. >> Did you have other questions? >> Yeah. Um, how do we know where the property line is? The exact property line. >> You'd have to have a survey done. >> Yeah. You You'd have to It'd be between you guys to get the survey done. >> There's There's yellow stakes that when I bought my property, I bought it from the gas company and there's yellow marker stakes in there. And there's a few spots. I measured that driveway was in three three feet of the yellow steak. Not everywhere, but but some places. But I don't think the the fact that the driveway is here or there or whatever. I thought the reason for moving the driveway to the other side of the uh converted shed to their equipment uh shop was to give me some peace and quiet. >> That's what it was for. Yeah, absolutely. >> So to argue that it's going to be quieter by keeping it open than it would be to put it on the other side, there's 10 acres there. Make a circle on the other side and and figure it out. Um because it's loud and when that truck goes down that driveway, the uh the paintings the uh pictures on the north side of or on the south side of my house shake. That won't happen if he's going down on the other side of the of the building. So I I think Darl what you're telling us is that the fence is not good enough. It didn't solve the problem. >> No, it's not a sound barrier. It's >> I can't see the lower >> basically visual. >> What? Pardon me. >> I say it's covering the visual side of >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> Because the evergreens are going to cover >> it's doing nothing for the sound. >> Okay. I mean, nothing that the uh the spruce trees do more for the sound than than that, but >> they're thinned out because of the placement of the >> lower branches are all going to die off under Evergreen. So, that's the fence >> certainly covers the helps that >> the visual side of it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm happy about that. >> Correct. And all the treasures on the north side that were on your side are now gone. from what he sent, Mike? >> Yeah. And we judged that the day you were there by where those yellow stakes are. >> And you're you're happy with that, >> huh? >> You're you're okay with that part of it. >> With what part? >> All the all the treasures that are on that used to be on that side are now cleaned up. >> Um I don't see any on on this side. >> On your side. >> Okay. >> But >> Okay. >> You know, I don't know. I I haven't looked at it. I haven't gone on the other side of the fence to determine whether the fence is actually the property line or if it's set a little bit on his side or a little bit on my I'm not sure. >> Yeah. >> But those stakes are are legal stakes and it's very simple to measure from them to the edge of that tar that's going down that hill. But regardless, the uh that driveway was supposed to be moved to give me some peace and quiet. Yes, it I don't disagree. >> And all of a sudden, we're talking a whole different issue here. >> Well, >> and I think u that's that problem still stands. >> Plus, it's now winter time. >> Huh? >> Plus, it's now winter time. >> I'm not saying it has to come out today. Okay. You know, I mean, it could come out on the ground. I don't think there's a lot of frost in the ground right now. No, there's not. You know >> a question Darl if you know >> and I think only you would know this. Is it a considerable difference between the noise when trucks are on the south side of the building versus the north side? >> Johnuge >> when >> well the I'm my bedroom is 60 ft from that driveway. >> Mhm. >> On this north side. I mean, you can't I don't care if you idle down or or what, you you still feel it. And if you're unfortunate enough to be like I'm an on call veterinarian. If I working at night and I'm trying to get some sleep during the day, it's shaking me in my bed. So, I mean, I at least that was my understanding that that was why that driveway was decided and I thought it was agreed upon that that was going to be moved to the south. And I know there's arguments that circle driveway is better, but but make a circle on the other side of of the building. I mean, he's in that business anyhow. I think it's pretty simple to do. I think I could do it with a skidster myself and I'm a veterinarian. Mayor, >> do you have any more questions for the resident? Otherwise, no, probably have a conversation between the council and staff, I guess. But >> yeah, >> are you Stephanie? I thought she had something. >> I I have a question for John. >> Okay. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. Thank you. >> Um, the applicant want to come back up or >> Well, do we have any more questions for the applicant? I think it's just >> I assume you wanted to answer >> between council and staff probably have more questions my guess. >> Okay, hold on a second. >> Council move in. So sorry. >> Um John, when we were saying or when we're going out and looking at the property, what are we measuring from? So like if the property is it >> we're not measuring. >> So we're saying the applicant says that the prop it's 10 ft and we're saying it's 10 ft. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean yes. Is that what I'm >> without the benefit of a survey? Like there's no way to confirm any measurements. >> There is survey markers though. >> Okay. But we're not typically we're not measuring from property stakes. >> We are not. The city doesn't use property stakes. It's a surveying company and it would be a civil issue between the two neighbors typically is how we've always handled that as a city. Whether that's this property or one on the south side of town, whatever. It would be a civil issue between the two property owners of where the stakes are at and how what the length of distance is. If they have a certified survey that have been done by a surveyor, then we will utilize that to figure out here's exactly where it should be from setbacks. >> Okay. >> Um but if we have issues typically rely on Edipin Countyy's map. However, we have noted that this map is already off and we knew that when we started this process. So, we can neither confirm or deny if the driveway. >> We could probably note it from the fence line because it physically exists today. >> But is the fence line on the property? >> He put the fence line. So, how do And how do you know if it wasn't the property line you put the fence up? I can drink you like not on purpose, but you could really be far off with your fence line if you didn't have a survey done. >> Sure. Van Arizon. That is correct. >> Okay. I guess I'm just trying to make sure like what data points we have and like what we are speculating which is not a negative thing on any side. I'm just >> I guess trying to wrap my head around >> um >> and I guess while I'm talking I Oh, you have another question? >> No, I was going to see if the applicant could explain. >> Oh, >> but did you have another question for staff or >> No. >> Okay. >> No, go ahead. >> You want to come up name and address again? H how did you determine the property line for the fence >> when the fence? Oh, if you ask me name and address first. So, name John Herbus, address 15430 Brockton Lane. And so, um to answer your question, Hayden was out there. We put a measuring tape from the fence. The fence is on my side. I want to make sure I'm respecting Daryl. Is I asked, you know, what are we looking at to put the fence? I went right up to the existing fence that was there. I also pulled a permit out and that's been looked at as well that it was put in the right area. >> The fence permit. >> What? >> The fence. >> The fence is permitted. >> Yeah. Oh, >> okay. >> So then Hayden would have gone or we would have gone out. >> Metro West Metro West did. >> So how do they know where the property line is? >> You're smiling at me. >> I am there. We have to make certain assumptions that things are correct. But ultimately it it's >> but I have been working with Daryl and trying to make a good communication. >> If you know this is for anyone you know you build a fence on the wrong side of the property property line that's your problem to solve with the neighbor. Um we can't confirm that a fence gets built on the right correct property line. So at this point, if there is a question, it is either the property owners have the right to hire a survey company to mark out the property line. That's correct. >> And then at that point, once an official survey has been done, if it is found >> and the fence is on the wrong side, then does the city get involved or is the city still not involved at that point? >> It's still okay. >> Did that fence permit So when we do a fence permit, >> what was how old was the fence permit? >> It was last year. I took it right. >> Oh, you took it out. >> I I took it out to put the fence in because it's the right thing to do, >> right? >> So, when we were having a discussion about this, I I'm not >> He doesn't have an issue with the fence. >> No, I don't think you do. The The question is is if the driveway could be there in the first place. So, if the driveway is too close to the property line, it's got to come out no matter what. Like, it doesn't matter if it's on which side. And so, >> they have an agreement saying it needs to move. question mark. Maybe >> we do have an >> we do right now, but after this item, it would >> request from the applicant is to be able to remove that requirement. >> I understand to keep what the request is here for, >> but he is right right at this time. It is a requirement. >> That's correct. >> Yes. >> To answer the other question is from the fence line out to the road. Um I used a measuring tra tape. It wasn't a trick one and Hayden watched it. So that's why the the yellow lines were drawn in one of the pictures to show that it always has been. Um I put it in right and didn't even know it. And so um I was just trying to make sure that I wasn't towards the branches of the um the roots of the trees and trying to respect that before. So it naturally came out that I did the right thing in the first place. So it does meet the requirements from the beginning. I just couldn't answer Scott when he says am I 10t off? I couldn't answer that benefit. Yes, it's 10 feet off because I didn't know. >> Can you address the comment that you could put that turnaround loop in somewhere else on your property? >> Um the property the way things are actually scaling it's going towards the wetland on the other middle of it and so it actually um for the different heights. So see where the tree lines and all that that's all gets in wet in there and I only have the ability that it starts going into the septic. So, right where the blue is to the side of that, all the septic is back into this piece right there. If you want me to go up there, I'll show you. Make >> Please. >> Is that what you like? >> Go ahead. >> Please. >> Excuse me. >> So, right through here, the septic comes out and the septic is roll right in here. And so, this starts getting lower and it doesn't do me any good cuz I'm going up uphill the whole way. When you're driving a rig and it's hitting high RPMs, it's going to be louder than going down the hill in neutral with no no gas on at all. And I don't have to then So I would love if I could make things better, I would love to, but it's, you know, I'm going to have to back up if I have to back up. >> U that that that's a good point that I just want to reiterate. So, by mo removing the north driveway, which is the picture to the right, um, and going up the south driveway, that's the picture to the left, you're you're going up a higher grade. So, the truck is going to be noisier going uphill than it would be going >> up a gentler slope on the north driveway. So, part of the question is, is by removing the north driveway and dependent on the steeper south driveway, is that going to decrease the noise from the truck? How many trucks a day are are you running through? I know it varies with the work you're doing. >> One going coming in. We'll have um one or two going out in the morning and in the afternoon one or two coming back in. Um, you know, and I kind of wanted to make a joke as why my business is not liked is it's just dirt. It's, you know, I don't I don't have nothing odd that's not wouldn't have been on a farm site anyways. You know, cuz the only place I did put any asphalt is, you know, you have a little bit left. You don't want to throw a ton away. I put it on the road. Maybe I should have tried to do it all at once versus trying to do patches and try to talk to my neighbor more. >> So, I think this is brought up at the original one, but you So, and you just rated it. So, you got two going out in the morning and two coming in in the afternoon. >> Yeah. Oh, you know, but there might be one person that runs back to grab something. I don't want to make the picture look gold and perfect. >> I understand. Yeah. >> Um, and I did go talk to Daryl cuz I want good relationships. And you know, I said, "How's it going this year? You're here to witness what I'm saying." And he says, "Better." And then I said, "Well, I found out that I have to take the road out." And Darl, you were surprised I had to take the road out, but I told you the truth why I was coming here. It was to keep things so that I want to be >> What do you mean I was surprised? >> Um, >> I don't think you speak any words. >> Well, listen to that. Yeah, >> I don't think I did say that, but I want to keep things respectful. Let's uh let's yeah stop the yes back and forth. >> I apologize. I already going to hear it from from my my daughter and my wife. >> Okay. >> Where you guys at? >> Here's where I am on this deal. We talked about this already. The requirement was to move the road. Apparently that wasn't a big enough requirement because it isn't done yet. Uh, I think Daryl is okay if we reiterate the requirement uh sometime next May or June rather than going through the extra expense to get it out now cuz it's going to cost more money to get it out now. Uh, some of that dirt that comes out of it now possibly could go well. You just close it. I guess is what you would do. You had mentioned before that you could um fill in some of the the low ground with I think it was 40 or 50 truckloads of of dirt >> to make the to make the circle >> the other side. Yep. >> The new the new spite. Yeah. >> Yep. Apparently that's what you got to do. I mean, >> but I if I would have known it was 10 ft on that day, which I couldn't answer for you and I knew the ordinance, which everything was done correctly. Um, would you have changed your mind? I'm the reason I came I came back and applied for this before it was due to take it out. >> So, I wasn't trying to play a switch and cap mouse game because I'm just trying to be upfront right away. I guess I guess the only other solution to me is is if you go through the survey and the road is legally where it's supposed to be or or can be, I should say, then we got nothing to talk about. >> Well, and that's Yeah. And Daryl is here to say when I put the fence in, I asked him, "Is this right where it needs to be?" And that I pulled the permit for it, so I've done everything properly that I can. >> Scott, can I challenge you for a minute? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, I don't know that I I agree with the statement that there's nothing left to talk about because we still have the issue of um approving this business as it sits like this with the road or the driveways road. I don't know what you call it this close to the neighbor's property is still causing him a noise nuisance. So, >> I don't disagree. Whether the driveway is okay to be there or not, I think is not the issue for me. The issue for me is even if it's 10 ft off the property line, and that's all fine, running a business at this residence is causing an issue and a nuisance to the neighbor. And so, I guess my feelings would not have changed to be honest. If you had said, "Yep, it's compliant. It's 10 ft off and we're good." I still would have said, "Well, you're driving your neighbor crazy >> at his home cuz you are running trucks at your home." Um, and if we're going to allow that to happen, I think like again that's an issue for me. And so I don't my feelings haven't changed from what they were when we were here last time. That it's a nuisance to your neighbor. I want you to run your business. I want you to be successful, but I don't want that to be at the expense of the people that live next to you. So for me, I stand exactly where I did before that the road or the driveway, whatever it is, I don't know, needs to come out, doesn't need to whatever it is, like not to be used for the business and that it needs to go on the other side of the property to give distance between the neighbor and you. and that I think that granting an extension for the time. I think that I also stand on not extending that because I think we need to make sure that we're still not causing a nuisance to our neighbor. >> Well, it's not being used at all till spring, >> right? Just just, you know, I mean, it's not being No trucks are moving. We're done for the year. >> I bet he's tickled pink. I bet you're tickled pink about there not being any trucks till >> till spring. >> But it's too bad because we don't spend that much time out in the yard >> time of the year really here summer and spring. >> What months is this operating? road restrictions come off >> is that it's >> you know that's pretty much when we start >> and then as soon as it starts to snow we could be sometimes done by Halloween >> and I you know it's just not >> see so you're if I I agree with with what Stephanie is saying there I mean it is causing a problem for the neighbor and it is a it is a black tile business next to a residential area. Okay. >> And we gave some some terms five, six, seven months ago and we still are not living up to all of them. I mean, he he's made effort. I don't disagree with that, but >> it's not good enough. >> I do want to make sure CL he has met every requirement. Just make sure that's clear. He has met every requirement that we've had. He technically is not over it because >> if we still say no and the council decides that they want to say no, then his job is to in the next >> 21 days remove that driveway because that's what he's required to do. So I just want to make sure it's clear that we aren't he's technically not in violation of anything yet. I mean >> might cost him more money, but that's been his choice, not ours. So just want to make sure that's clear for the record that he's done nothing wrong. He's followed everything you've been told to do so far and not in violation of the IEP. >> So, my views also have not changed. Um, and I just want to say I have nothing against the business. It's the location of the business that I've always had an issue with. The business itself was fine. Happy to have you in Dayton, just not here. Um and in fact after you the whole thing came through the first time I have had other business owner other well resident business owner who has a similar business in an industrial area who's like it would have been I could have gotten a cheaper mortgage with better loan terms if I would have bought a house and done what this person did and instead I felt like I followed all the rules. Um and why did I bother following all the rules when I didn't have to? And I was like I cuz because you shouldn't have a business like this in in this area. It's not agricultural and it's not residential. And it clearly says the number one requirement is all home occupations shall be clearly incidental. And this is not incidental. This is the purpose of this location. Um and it should not change the character and it should um not result in incompatibility or disturbance to the surrounding residential uses. And it does. And so my opinion also hasn't changed. I was against it then. I'm against it now. I don't think this is the appropriate spot for it. I'm definitely not going to to make it e, you know, take the driveway requirement off. Um, and I'm definitely not extending it. So that's where I stand. This is not the appropriate place for this business. >> I guess I'm left. Um, well, I I want to say that we've every one of these that we've dealt with has has been a unique headache in one way or another. Um, we allow this in Dayton and we're not deciding today whether or not this business is allowed. It's whether or not we remove the requirement to remove to move or abandon the driveway hour that's termed. Um, I I will say that I am impressed with the things that you've done. Um, the pictures we saw last go around, that was that was quite a mess and you've done a lot of work to clean that up. Um, I'd like you to straighten that one fence post there. That bothers me a little bit, but >> but putting up the fence, that was uh I mean, you didn't even put the ugly side up on the on your neighbors. >> You always get the best of the others. that was the right way to do it. Um, so I'm I'm feeling like you've you've done what you can do to comply other than this driveway piece. I think that your argument is that it's more efficient and potentially less noisy for you to to use this way. We're talking about two trucks a couple trips a day. I'm not having that much heartburn over it. Since all of the stress, I did have another neighbor that wrote a letter if you want to see it or hear it. >> That'd be the same guy that had the letter before or talked for you before. >> Yes, it would be Michael, the other neighbor that's right next to us. >> No, I don't. >> All right. >> Would you be okay with the driveway being removed from the requirement or not? >> Uh, I would be okay with it. And >> I'm not. >> Okay. Well, that's three. Um, I have a feeling that in a few months we're gonna be back here because getting a truck up that grade is going to be noisy as H double hockey sticks. So, okay. >> A question I have is, have you taken trucks up that grade yet? >> Yes. >> Okay. And was I guess >> loud as ever. the kids came out of the house and want thought it was going on. >> It's going to be Yep. >> And so it is not just a little loud thinking of your truck just screaming because that's what it has to do. >> I would be willing to uh delay the taking out until spring, but it doesn't have to be because and for me it's honestly more for the pine trees sake. Um, it's going to be more I would Well, I don't know. I would assume it would be harder on the trees to take it out now, though they're currently. Okay. So, you're okay with extending? >> I'm okay with extending the requirement. How do we do that? >> My I'm going to look at Amy. My preference would be just a a verbal direction rather than amending the resolution. >> Okay. If that's >> I would I would ask for a formal resolution amendment of the resolution because the current IUP states December 31st and if you don't have direction from my council to extend it past December 31st >> officially. Yep. >> We are now arbitrarily doing it based on direction. So if you're going to amend anything, we would want everything approved as in >> this is what I'm amending the IUP to be whatever that motion would be. Whether that's extending the IUP physically from three years to five years or whether that's extending the timeline related to the driveway from December 31st to May 30th or whatever the timeline is. That way we can officially have a on the record adjustment of that IB. That would be my request. >> All right. Well, let's clean that part up first. >> I would make the motion to extend the driveway coming out until let's call it May 31st. >> When do weight restrictions typically come off? >> Middle of May. >> What did you say? >> Middle of May. When do weight restrictions arrest restrictions? >> Okay. >> I'm sorry. That was May 31st. >> Yeah. >> May 31st of 2026. >> Can you live with that? >> What was the date? >> May 31st. >> As opposed to what was the other choice? >> December 31st this year. >> I think May 31st a little bit late. is out of the ground middle of March. >> I'll take May 31st. >> You're okay. >> Any second? >> More likely than that. >> Nothing's ideal. I mean, >> you can kick it up before that. So, if it ends up being an easy year, you can do before that. Corman, you can't do it before. I just can't do it after that. >> Right. I'll second. >> Okay. Any discussion on that? All those in favor say I. >> I. I >> I those opposed say no. >> That carries five to zero. >> Mr. Mayor, for my clarity, the the extension is not approved. >> That's correct. >> The extension is no >> no extension. >> The IUP stays only amendment was the date for the removal of the driveway. >> That was motion. That was second. That was what was voted on. >> Okay. Well, then I guess as far as that goes, we're done. >> Well, how about the ex isn't there two votes? One for the extension or not? the extension. Three of us don't want. >> We can vote on it if you want, but it >> No, I'm just trying to be respectful because I put a lot into this and come to find out things have changed and it is what it is. >> I want to revisit it before you get another two years on it. >> I will gladly come back and >> Yeah. >> Y it's still valid for three years. So, you have the time frame and then you can >> with two years left. Two years left. >> Correct. Yep. >> Thank you. Okay. Item Q. >> Okay. Item Q. This is an amendment to an interimm use permit for an event center located at 17501 Dayton River Road. Um, this was a interimm use permit for an event center that was uh approved by the city council uh this past year um with the IUP. And I should say this is zone agricultural which does not allow signage. Uh the applicant is requesting to be allowed signage uh similar to what would be allowed in the commercial zone district. Um within the IEP ordinance the intention is is that signage the allowed signage would be detailed as part of the IEP. And so because that wasn't done in the first place um this is the amendment. Uh the applicant is proposing to install uh one sign on per silo. There are two silos. So there would be a sign that's facing the east as well as one on the west. If this were zoned to commercial property, um it would be allowed Wow, I don't have that number right. Sorry. If the proposed signage consumes about 80% of the signage, wall signage that would be allowed. So, it does leave some space left over for additional signage on the future event center building itself. Um, the silos themselves are about 80 ft tall. The top of the sign or proposed sign would be about 50 ft. I don't have a problem with it. I'll make a motion to approve it. I come by the name. >> I'll second. >> I think it looks nice. >> Does Does it have to be lit? Is there an option to not have it lit? >> There's an option. So, the the applicant is requesting that it be lit as one of the conditions of approval. Uh with the sign permit application, uh the applicant would have to submit a photometric plan that shows uh the foot candles as it radiates out from the the lighting source >> cuz I cuz well cuz the whole signs in egg I think is a weird question because I've passed plenty of farms that have a sign up that says the name of their farm, but I've also passed houses that have you know I'll use my own like the vanastians that what like so if you have a farm and I put a sign up is that considered advertising But just a thicket hills, that's the name of your farm. I don't like lots of farms do that. Um I think it's the lighting it that might take it one step like one step further for me that um but so that the lighting is the only thing I have any sort of issue with um because like I said there's all sorts of farm there's just people who have like this is my address and this is our last name, right? And that there's no issue there. Um Thicket Hills is the name of their vineyard. Like if it was just a vineyard and it was just a farm and they had that on the side of their silo, would we even be having this conversation? Um that's that's a genuine question. If it was just a vineyard and they just had the name on the silo, would we be having this conversation? Okay. A neighbor could complain about that. >> It's a sign. So >> um you know, I there are many signs you think of Century Farms that have the Century Farm sign out front. >> We really don't recognize that as a sign. >> Why not? Why would this be a sign and that's not a sign? >> Yep. >> I would look at it as a non-commercial sign. >> But >> um and you can argue it different ways. >> Yeah. >> Um so it depends on what what is on the sign. >> I think that's part of why we have a fence ordinance that's 4 million pages long is because we try to hit every use case if you can't. Mhm. >> And so, yeah, >> historical monument sign is still a sign, right? >> Yes. >> Can I I have a question. >> When we're talking about lighting, can you give an example maybe somewhere in or of like how how lit are we talking here? Like are we can you >> just for reference, can you say like this would be do you know what I mean? So like I can have like a reference because like lighting can mean a hundred different things and when you give me a foot candle like >> Yeah. How do you wrap your head around? >> That's a great question for the applicant to be honest. Give me also because I'm assuming they're looking at something that they're going to say hey we're looking at something like this >> hopefully that they can use this application. >> That's my thought. >> Do we have any shining a light on it or are we lighting it up? Yeah. >> Yeah. Is it like it's not neon, but you know what I mean? Like what is the >> I think it can maybe clarify some >> name and address and spew. >> Yeah. >> And >> Jack Burnham's uh 14770 Thicket Lane in Dayton. Been a resident for 30ome years. And my son John, he'll probably come up if I miss anything. Uh so let me just start kind of sort of from the beginning. Well, we had these silos. are like, you know, we don't want to tear them down because well, they're functional. They're actually we had soybeans in them last year, so we can use them as a silo. But we saw the semstone silo up on uh 169. You look all around the countryside, you'll see harvester silos with harvester on them and the American flag and all that. So, we're like, let's make them iconic for the city. and we hope we've done a good job with the painting and >> and the logo we think looks really nice on there. >> Um so our idea was basically and and the whole reason the whole we brought it forward to Hayden and then eventually John was that there's no really any direction in the IUP ordinance about signs. So that's a gap, right? Technically, there's no signs in agriculture. Well, we're on agriculture, but we're also going to be a commercial business. So, we got to at least tell people, "Hey, we're here somehow." We wanted to do it in the most sleek, elegant way that we could. From a lighting perspective, what we're talking about is taking the power all the way up to the top and down light it. So, it's very very minimal lighting, which we think goes with the whole uh branding and theme and everything else we're trying to do. Uh, and when we talked to the uh planning commission, they were supportive of that. They said, you know what, we like the down lighting. We'd like you to have no more than I think it's 0.1 ft candles at the property line. So, we've talked to some people like, "What does that mean?" >> I I believe we can achieve that with down lit uh lighting, no problem. But, I mean, till someone gets out there with some phototric device at the property line, I guess we're not going to know for sure. But our intent is not to have a quick trip sign, you know, >> you're not going to have gas prices on your >> on the Yeah. on the side of these silos. us to be >> it's being >> very um well like I said you know sleek, elegantl looking and and honestly from our perspective you know if our business is successful it becomes an icon in the city of date because you got we preserve these really beautiful silos that are going to look super sharp. So that's kind of our plea and >> well I think to answer Sarah have you at the mic >> uh JT Bernins uh 17921 Dayton River Road. Um, and just to answer your question, it would be downcast lighting. And if we were to follow the 0.1 foot candles, and I've been trying to understand what that means exactly, but from what I understand, and you can do your own research and see if I'm correct in this, but uh 0.1 foot candles at the property line would essentially almost be no light. it that would basically be kind of the the tailing would maybe hit the property line and it would be that way non-intrusive for our neighbors across the street because for the most part we have a neighbor to the north of where the silo would be at I would guesstimate maybe 150 yards. So I don't think that that would be shining that direction and it would kind of be you think about downcast lighting you kind of got to put it back onto the silo, right? So, it's kind of pointing back this way. So, I don't see them. I'd be more concerned about the neighbor closest to us across the road. >> The one home is condemned, right? And so, we know no one's there. And then the other uh home I believe with that rule it you wouldn't have much if any light to cross River Road and be a nuisance to them is I guess the hope both with the guidelines that we've been given and our own you know we're friendly neighbors. We want to stay friendly neighbors. And so that that was the intent there. Just I guess I was kind of longwinded. Just for reference, I I've got a light meter on my phone, so it's nice to have an app. Um, so this is about 15 foot candle, so 15 30 times as bright as it should be >> in the room right now, you're saying, or >> right here. >> Okay. >> Um, now granted, when you're looking at something, it's all relative to what what is behind that. So there's no light behind it. Everything looks brighter. Um, so I I know >> council member Fashan has used the example of a billboard that's in Ramsey that I think you can see. >> I know the one. >> Yeah, >> we can all see it. Yeah, I can see. >> So the request of the planning which was 0.1 foot candles. >> That was what we were getting. >> That's what they told the planning commission said. I think they looked up. >> That's like essentially it's like essentially zero light is so foot candle is literally a candle from a foot away. That's how much light a foot candle is. the property line, not >> that's that's one foot candle. So one/10enth of a candle lit if you're one foot away from it would be how much light would be coming off >> at the property. >> At the property that's correct just so as a reference like I literally just Googled what is a foot candle and it's literally a candle >> and that's exactly what I would say you know like you talked about could you illuminate them from the backside but I think it would look tacky. >> Well and I think that would be brighter and be more obnoxious. And then we thought about from below, but then light pollution into the sky. That goes against your dark sky ordinance, right? >> Very absolutely opposed to that. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think it works in your favor, too, that they're they're black. You're not getting a lot of reflected light except for your logo there, which is the whole point. >> Yeah. And the the logo would be a very thin white aluminum basically raised about 2 in off the silo. There, you can kind of see them. There's metal ties that go around the concrete. You can't paint those. Um, and so that's really our only choice from a signage option. >> So question I have is does it have to be lit? I mean I'm thinking about who's coming to your location, who's coming at night, who needs does >> it's more it's more really for if you think about like awareness. >> Okay. >> So you know that road roughly I think that's like 15 20,000 cars a day or something going back and forth. Most of those cars are in the rush hour in the morning and the evening and it's just really about you know making sure I mean technically it probably the lighting you know in the summer you're not going to really probably see it but >> but in the winter like when it gets dark at 4 you want that traffic coming home to see it just as a awareness thing. >> Mhm. >> That's the main main purpose. >> I mean we will be open past that time as well. Uh, >> but at that point, people are leaving, not trying to find it. I'm just thinking like wedding guests trying to get to your location. >> Kind of like they asked us because we got some signage on the building itself. Yeah. >> But we don't even know if we're going to do that because the building's 2,000 ft from the road and when you get all the way up there, >> you know where you are. >> You know where you're at. I like you got to tell someone where you're at. >> I just I've had to direct enough family members to wedding locations and how challenging that can be. So, that's who I'm envisioning needing to have signage to know where the heck to turn. Um, and I'm thinking, well, they're going to be showing up most likely during daylight hours and so they're not going to need it lit on the silo, but this is more and it's kind of an advertisement in some ways. So, >> yeah, in a way, I mean, it's it's all about, >> you know, it's both, but branding is certainly a big part of it. You know, you want people that are driving by to know that it's there. I mean, you you wouldn't believe how many people have commented just on the side on once we painted them. People were like, "Yeah, they stood out right away." So cool. >> You know, so cool. >> Does this eliminate or go into cuz I I haven't driven by recently. Um I'm assuming you're going to have a sign at the driveway so people know that this is where we turn in, >> correct? The entrance. >> Yeah, there's already a small sign there. We've got a small It's just the th and it's on the side of the pole shed there. >> We just replace the Beach Family Farm. >> Exactly. >> And that's where I was like, if there was you didn't need an ordinance to have the Beach Family Farm sign up, so why >> No. And this is what, you know, we came to this to Hayden because we're like, you know, it's not clear. >> No, it's not. >> But, you know, if we could have strictly said, okay, well, it's an existing structure. It's agriculture. We don't even need assigned permit, but we were trying to be like, okay, we don't want to spend this money and then get sideways with the city because they saw it a different way than we did. >> But, I mean, they've been good to work with and we've tried to find a way to make it work and I think they have and so that I'm not complaining at all. It's just like our our thought process as we went through this. >> Yeah. >> Well, I do think it's important. I think we need to revisit the side arts for egg because um agro tourism is a growing industry and like we already have some orchards and whatever and like where does that where does that tip from? I'm just a farm but it is a business like I I have some honey berries that are going to be ready to be harvested next spring all fingers crossed and my plan is to do some pick your own. So, I'm going to need a sign so people can come, but that's strictly an egg business. So, do I need to get a permit to get a sign to say that this is my farm? Like, and it do like >> it's gray. >> It's gray. But I think as egg businesses, as you know, when you're just corn and soy, it's one thing, but when you're an egg business for agurism, then it's a whole different thing. And we don't have rules one way or the other. And I think we're going to have to. And I think so. Big mayor, members of council, I want to keep the comments and I agree. I like the comments and stuff, but let's try to focus on this item, not specifically. >> How about if I amend my motion to include downcast lighting not to exceed >> whatever it was at the property city code requirement. I would just >> I was going to say that that's the requirement. Okay, >> I'll second your motion. >> Okay, so we had we previously had an emotion. >> Yeah, we already had an a motion and a second. the way that they do it. So, >> but he didn't need to add he didn't need to add the second part, right? >> It's already So, you're good with the first. >> So, Scott and Dave, that's great. >> Dang it. >> Any more discussion? >> By the way, do you guys have a sodium light out there? >> Most farms do. Just a big yard light. >> And we've taken it down. >> They took the sodium. >> It was on the old grain bins that we removed from >> cuz those are far brighter than this is going to be. Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> So we do have some like on the egg buildings we have motion lights that just for security like come on if you get too close to the doors but we took the sodium light down. >> Yeah cuz it is I mean first of all it uses a heck of a lot of power and second >> and they're very bright. >> Like you said it's ugly. >> Yeah it's very bright. >> It was on the grain bin. We decided not to put it back up. >> Okay. So I got a motion in a second. Any more discussion? >> All those in favor say I. >> I. All those opposed say no. Thanks for the time. >> So that passes 5 to zero. Thank you. >> So yeah, mayor councel, we will address the signage ordinance and stuff and the 2026 item. Sounds great. >> Item R, concept plan. >> Yes. Thank you, uh, Mr. Mayor. Item R is a concept plan for sweet living assisted living, uh, lo on an unressed pro property. Uh, it's P1 14-120-22-41- 0025. So otherwise, this is the southwest corner of Dayton River Road and Balsam Lane. Uh >> southeast corner. >> Southeast corner. >> Southeast corner. Yeah. >> Southeast. Oh, it's the southeast. Um this is 2.8 acres. Uh the applicants are proposing to build an assisted living facility with 32 units on one floor. That is both assisted living as well as memory care. Um it is a sweet living operated by Hampton companies I believe. Um they operate 21 facilities in the Twin Cities with an additional six that are under currently under construction. Um the property is zoned GMU4 mixed use which allows it a mixture of uh residential, commercial and light industrial. Um, as far as the residential portion of it, it is spec, it does allow multifamily. Multifamily does not include assisted living. So, um, an ordinance amendment would be needed or required to allow assisted living within the GMU4 district. Uh, one question for the council is going to be, uh, should that be allowed as a permitted use or as a conditional use? I just want to get that out there before I forget to ask it. Uh within the GMU4 district, it does require that 50 that the building consume 50 the building frontage consume 50% of the lot. Um here's the lot. Uh the applicant has submitted two plans. One, concept A is a linear design. Concept B is an L-shaped design. Uh the applicant has no uh preference of one or the other. Um the plan commission, the majority of the plan commission did recommend the L-shaped um as did staff for both aesthetic reasons as well as the the access of the I'm calling it roundabout but just the circular driveway that goes through there. Um trying to think what else. Uh so as I was alluding to the plan commission did hold a public hearing on December 3rd. Um, with the concept plan, there's not a formal action and each council member or commission's case commission member is asked to give opinions of how um whether or not they support the project or what would make this project better. And with that, I give our pictures >> ask any questions of from the council. Any questions, concerns? >> I do. >> Okay. Spew it. >> Um, >> I don't know how to phrase this. I think it's okay. First of all, I think it's important that we have all different kinds of um housing options, especially for our aging population. Um, but I do have a question for Gary from an emergency response viewpoint. Um, I know that some communities have started looking at like the no lift, no touch. Um, facilities that have a no- lift, no touch policy, um, tend to have a lot more emergency 911 calls, for lack of a better way to say it. Um I'm just kind of wondering is there a way because again like I think this is a really great thing, a great idea to have um like our aging population have somewhere to be able to stay in our community. Um but do you see any kind of issues because we we do not have a policy as of now. I know Maple Plane just passed one about um repeat calls from facilities such as like ones like this. So, I'm just wondering from your perspective, do you see any issues or how would we manage that if we did have um a lots of those repeat calls from lift assists? >> Mayor and uh Council Member Henderson, um we often find to your point um with assisted care facilities, and I'm not sure familiar with this particular one, and maybe the the mayor is willing, the applicant may be able to answer the question. um if they have a no- lift policy. There are some uh probably more so for group homes that we're not familiar with often. Um they just kind of pop up and then we end up having uh I know when I was in Brooklyn Center um we had numerous uh no lift group home facilities. >> Yeah. >> Um we did run into it sometimes um with larger facilities. Um, I think it's really just having that conversation with the applicant or the the owner of the of building of what what is their policy because I guess my phrase is our back is no less important than their backs, if you will. So, um, we want to be of assistance when we can. Um, if they have Hoyer lifts, those are extremely helpful for us as well as them. >> Um, but I think if things are put into place, I don't see a big problem with it. It's just having that conversation up front. >> Okay. I think that was my real just kind of off the bat question before we get too far down the process here is I guess just putting that on the table. >> Any other >> I have some comments >> uh comments about just the design in terms of the location of the um the resident activity patio that it is on the way it's oriented. It's facing kind of northwest from and it's the busy road. >> Are you talking about the the right one? >> I Well, both of them either the right one is the northwest, the other one is just on the north. In both cases or that's a little northeast. Um but in both cases it's basically facing a really busy road in the shade um and the wind and I don't see that being a super a place I would want to spend time. Um, so just from a building perspective, I would think that putting a patio that you are wanting people to be at that they would I don't know want to look at something prettier than a busy road. Um, >> well, they did address some actually the applicants. Yeah, come on up. >> They did address that. Okay. Um, >> and my recollection was that the residents actually like to busy. >> Oh, okay. >> Good evening, uh, mayor and council members. I can address a few of these questions right away. We don't have a a no- lift place in uh or um we don't have a no lift um in place. So people we have Hoyer lifts, we have two person transfers, we have all those things. So >> um to your question um it's kind of funny. The first rooms that um get requested are on the busiest sides of our buildings. My grandpa, for instance, was the first resident to move into our I should have started with my name first of all. I'm Jeremy on behalf of Sweet Living >> Senior Care, but my grandpa was our first resident in our little Canada building and he picked the the room on the hard corner overlooking the liquor store just cuz he wanted to be part of the action. So, >> and I apologize for not having a chance to watch the planning commission meeting. I've been scrambling to get an exam graded before the last week of classes. So, I apologize if this was hashed out there. That's on me. Um, okay. So, things I just things I like I like that you are both the builder and the operator of it. that it's not getting farmed out to somebody else. I do really appreciate that about this project. Um, and I agree. I think we need more housing options. So, I really I really like that. One question. Um, is this just for memory? So, >> is it assisted or just for people with specific like immobile um? So, our um like you mentioned, we have 21 locations throughout the Twin Cities. 20 of the units in our building are assisted living. >> Okay. >> 12 are memory care. >> Okay. >> Um it is end of life. The next uh phase of assisted living is to move right on over to memory care. Our memory care wing is locked separate from the assisted living just because there because there are wanderers. So, >> yeah. >> Yep. And um we are familyowned. It's me and my dad that own the company. So, we're local. Yeah. um and uh plan to keep it that way. >> Okay, thank you. Those are my questions. >> Any other comments or questions? >> I'm not quite sure how to to frame this exactly, but I know there's different tiers within long-term care in terms of u payment coverage. Is this a facility that accepts Medicare patients? >> Yes. So we offer uh 20% of our building towards elderly waiver which is paid for by the state. Um and that could fluctuate between um buildings. Sometimes it could be as high as 30 or even 40%, sometimes it could be a little lower. We don't kick residents out if they run out of money. So um if they run out of money, we require them to have two years of private pay, but if they do run out of money, we help them get on the elderly waiver program through the state. If that answers your question. >> Yes. Thank you. Um because there are a lot of facilities that do not >> y >> accept Medicare patients or that as the only you're using the right words. I'm not but um that form of payment. >> Um I certainly it's needed and it's needed in this area. I I wonder a little bit um because of our our lack of uh transportation kind of facilities. Certainly memory patients aren't out and running around town or at least you hope they're not. But um the other residents then you know how are how are they getting around? How are they getting to the grocery store and so on? >> Yeah. So actually none of our residents drive. It'd be a really rare case just because it is end of life. So we um utilize companies like Metroransit or some of the other bus companies around and and then we have caretakers and other staff members that are willing to take residents grocery shopping if they would like. Um otherwise, you know, they get their meals at our our facility. They all have a kitchenet where they can have a fridge and a microwave. Um relying on family members to help stock, you know, some of the special items they would like in their rooms, but it's a lot more of the public transportation. And again, none of our residents are driving. >> This is not a question towards you, but David made me think of this. Does Metro Mobility serve Dayton? >> Uh the dial ride service. >> Okay. Okay. So, there's a different name for it. >> Yeah, every city has a different >> transit link is the name of it. That's run by Met Council and that is available in in the city of Dayton. Okay. >> This was a discussion I think we had last year in 2024 with the city council's a request to >> add us to the Metro Mobility Transit area, but that ends up adding a tax to everybody's property taxes to in order to pay for that. >> How much is it? >> Um I don't remember the exact percentage, but it is not a small amount right away because you have to buy into the entire system. So you're no longer paying just for the people that are in Dane. You're now paying for the entire system overall and adding those miles or whatever. Then add to the system, however that works. But transit link is what is available for us through Met Council and is available at any time and it's just dollar ride. The cost is fairly inexpensive, but it's cost per ride versus being a free a more free service that would be paid by property taxes. >> So for dial transit link, the res the person using it pays for it. >> Yes. Okay. Let's go ahead. versus Metro Mobility which is free. Okay. >> Free free but everyone pays for it. >> Yeah. Nothing's free. >> Nothing is free but it is it is a cost shared by the entire city rep recognizing that we may at some point hopefully be alive long enough to need it ourselves. So we're paying it forward. >> Helping other people is not a bad thing. >> I don't know if I want to do that. >> You'd rather die. >> I'd rather die. >> Okay. Noted. >> Scott. We're going to reserve your room. >> I'll help you out if you need that, Scott. All right. Any other uh comments or questions? >> I guess I like the L arrangement better than I do than the straight one. >> I do. >> I'm for the L. >> And the uh the out building needs to be attached. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. We And that doesn't even have to be there at all. We just have them set up regionally for Christmas decorations and just so they don't, you know, >> our maintenance department doesn't have to always come back to the >> Is it easy to attach? Cuz it didn't look to me like it would be easy to attach. >> No, I don't think it would be. I think we would just omit that. >> We wouldn't have it. >> No, we wouldn't have that. >> I'd be okay with an accessory building. But >> if you do the L shape, it looks like there's more space available. Do you have plans for that additional space? No, we would just keep it as green space and maybe have some more landscaping options. So, >> okay. >> Um, would there be any plan to expand your facility or >> No, not at this time. No, we would just keep it the 32 units. >> Okay. Mayor Ros, I think that's a great point that you bring up Vaness is that if you did the L-shaped, you could long term, whether that's 5 years or 50 years down the road, you could do something additional on that property. If you did the linear design, you're kind of stuck and that's it. You know, an L shape design does give you the ability in 50 years. Say you still want to do something. You could do that there >> a little bit. Yeah. >> No more comments. >> Well, when all you guys get there, maybe you'll have to expand. >> You'll be out wandering in the woods. >> Probably me up by a tree. I don't if if I question. So, just to summarize that the majority of the council is favorable of the L-shaped >> Yep. Yeah. >> Um and not in either having an attached garage or no garage. So I think from that you just would not do the garage. >> Um it sounds like there's support to allow assisted living in the GMU4 district. Would it be as a permitted use or as a conditional use? >> I forgot what the planning commission recommended. >> Um and >> you weren't real clear on I didn't ask a very clear question. So that's why >> I thought I had heard well what >> I heard the discussion but I don't remember now there was pros and cons to to one of them. >> Yeah. So and so there's one plan commissioner that that recommended conditional use just going off of memory. So the difference between it >> permitted use it's allowed. It's never going to come to the city council. In the case of a new construction, it's still going to come here as a site plan review, but not for the permission for the use. With a conditional use permit, it's permitted with certain conditions that are intended to mitigate any intended or potential um nuisance factor. So, like we talked about lighting, stereo lighting as an example. Um you can require conditions that shade headlights as an example that you would not normally do um on a permitted use. Um, still with the site plan review, you're going to catch that anyways or most of those nuisance factors, right? >> But you cannot deny a project. Let's see. If as a condition, you cannot deny a permitted use. Uh, with the conditional use permit, you can say that it's not appropriate for the site for reason XYZ, but you have to have to have findings that support that denial. seem like a risk. >> In in short, conditional use gives you more flexibility long term to be able to die products if you feel that they do not meet the desires of the neighborhood. >> Permitted use essentially doesn't allow you to be able to do those things and takes away that ability for us and the c in the city councils in the future to have those. >> My vote is conditional use then. >> So it sounds like you guys would prefer the >> It doesn't matter to us as staff. It's merely on the culture. >> This is a small zoning district. It's just along Balsam Lane. So um I I my only concern with this up is you guys are likely to know what needs to go into that. Um and it just seems like it's just an extra burden on on the planning commission and us. Either way, you got to go through site plan or connection. >> And my vote for it is because about what I'm about to say is I don't necessarily think we need them like two across the street from each other. And if there's a conditional use permit, we have the ability to say we don't think we need two of the same thing across the street from each other. If it's permitted use, then there could be two across the street from each other. You know what I mean? like it just gives us a chance to say like this doesn't like that we have a reason but we have to have a reason it can't be arbitrary but >> um I don't I would like to I mean it's I realize it's a small little district but >> cop I don't >> there's no voters small >> that everybody okay with that >> yes >> anything else are we good there >> conditional use permit >> any other unless the applicant has staff or any questions for the council? >> I don't have any questions. You guys have any more for me? >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. On to another concept plan. >> Yes. Okay. This is item S is a concept plan for Dayton Assisted Living. Uh, also an unadressed pro property lo located on P A14-120-22-41-00005. Uh, this is the vacant parcel just south of Rain Tree Plaza. It's an acre and a half. Uh, also zoned GMU4 um as a concept plan similar to the last project. It is there's no formal approval or denial. Uh the council has asked you to give individual opinions of whether you support the project and what could make the project better. Um this project is proposed here. Here's the property. Uh so we have Balsam Lane fronting and then um Dayton River Road and then Rain Tree at the um just north of this project. Uh the project is proposing 58 units. So it is three stories above an underground parking garage or partially underground parking garage. Um so this is a larger project is both assisted living and memory care. Um this is a difficult site to work with because of the shape of the property. Um so in addition to the ordinance amendment that we spoke about in the last project, um this would require a variance of the front yard setback. So within the GMU4 district, there is a 15 foot minimum setback and a 30- foot maximum setback. Uh the proposed setback will be over 100 ft uh from the property line just because the shape of the property um when this was discussed by the plan commission, the majority of the plan commission was supportive of a variance to exceed the maximum setback. So again, the idea of the GMU4 district is to push buildings as close to the street as as practical. Um let's see what else. Uh the building itself would be 38 and a half ft. Um just for uh contextual uh this is normal to a a twostory house with a a steep roof or pitched roof. Um in this case it's three stories with a flat roof. Um in the GMU3 district or GMU4 district, I apologize. Uh the conditional use permit is required for any building that exceeds two stories. So in addition the ordinance amendment of the variance, we would have conditional use permit for exceeding two stories. Um we've not uh had an opportunity to do a formal kind of review of the architectural requirements, but this is roughly what the building would look like at least from the south side that's facing the parking lot. Um access wise, um because this is a a fairly narrow, uh lot that's facing the street, um the applicant is showing both a direct uh access, which would be a right in right out. Uh staff is is recommending a shared easement onto Rainree Plaza, uh which would give a full access um to the intersection of both rights and lefts. This is the south axis on rainree, not to be confused with the north axis which is um closer to the gas tanks. So this is the south axis than the north axis here. Trying what else? Um one of the recommendations that staff has or requirement I guess is to um have a a fire lane access around the building. Um the building set back 20 feet 6 in. Uh fire lane would be 20 feet wide. Um it really as it's drawn it doesn't fit. Um there's a little bit of space to move the building south um which would um add about 5t on to the north property line. Although staff's recommendation would to the applicant would be to work with um Rain Tree Plaza to add land from their property onto this one uh to make the the property a little bit bigger and to fit a an appropriate fire lane going around the building questions. >> Why are you recommending the fire lane around this one but not the previous one? Is that cuz the road is right there? Maybe this is a for the >> mayor and council member Van Aston. Um in this case um this is a three-level structure as opposed to a single story. >> Okay. >> So accessibility is easy by stretch hoses handjacked from Dayton Road or Balsam there. Um but to get access to that third second or third story need to have that accessibility. >> Okay. Thank you. And John, this this height um how many feet is it? >> Uh 38. >> 38. >> It'd be really nice to know what that look like from the neighbor's point of view. >> Yeah. Which neighbor? >> To the west. >> To the west. There's going to be houses. >> They're residential. >> Yeah. >> They already are there. >> They're there. >> Yeah. like it's called likely very large because their house is probably not very tall. So, >> well, I know that. Yeah, >> it'll probably be over the top of the trees. My guess, even if they're fully mature trees. >> Well, yeah. >> Well, I think also elevation wise, like I would um I know the the planning commission, someone made a comment about how these two projects feel like they should be flipped. Um and I like fully agree to that. Like if I'm talking about if if you gave me these two options, they're like, "Which one should have the three-story building?" I'm like this one clearly. Um that seems like a no-brainer. >> The reason I I was asking that is because the the development next to me is exactly that >> is it's and plus they built on six. So they're all looking down at me which Yeah. I >> Yeah. My initial reaction is that too. It's too much building for this site. >> It does seem like it. >> It's just going to tower over everything around it. It is a problematic site. Um, all right. Any questions for staff? >> Is the developer here? >> Yep. Come on up. Name and address. >> Yeah. Hi, I'm Chad Cass. I'm with BJ Boss Builders, uh, general contractor, uh, representing my client and his team. Uh this is Franko Frank. >> Yeah, Frank Lane 11 1920 134th Avenue North Dayton and the other partner that I work with also lives in Dayton. That's across. >> Is there anything over and above what staff has explained to us that you'd like to communicate? >> I'm sorry. What was that? >> Is there anything over and above what staff gave us that you'd like to communicate to us? >> Uh no. I did have one question on that fire road. Um we're just talking about the north side of the property. propert wouldn't necessarily have to go all the way around the building if that was my understanding. >> Primarily, if I could gain access to the north side of the property, that would be ideal. I ideally would be all the way around, but I can work with having the accessibility from the north and the south side. >> Yeah, cuz can you like the the south side, the parking lot can offer you that accessibility and then the north side could offer you accessibility on that side? >> Yes. >> Then you could hit every unit. So, correct. >> Yeah. Okay. Because I I believe we could shift that um you know to make that 20 foot road. It'd be a >> a pull in probably and back out type of situation. >> That's fine. That's that's not a problem. >> Okay. >> Can I ask my same question? Do you have a no lift no touch policy? >> I'd have to refer to Frank. So you it's both uh the top will have the most independent living then middle as they slow down we get them to memor unit at at the at the last you know the first floor but we don't have that we we we have two people assist with assistant stands and lifts >> could you talk into the mic there >> yeah so there's no lift policy we we we are able to do two people assist it's just matter of staffing and using equipment I'm not going to do that. >> Neither >> comments. >> Is this also going to be an end of life facility? >> Yes. >> Same as the last one. >> Same as the last one. Yes. >> I really got a problem with the uh 38 foot building that was residents right on the other side of it. >> Um it question for the applicant. it wouldn't this only work if it's a three story or would it you I don't know what the number count would be if it were only two. >> Yeah, I can't answer that right now. Um right here sitting here um and that'd be something I think Frank and his team would have to look at with their proforma if we >> you know took away a whole floor. >> What that would do to it? Yeah. Does that kill the deal or or not? >> I I Yeah, >> I will. Can I >> go ahead >> approach up here once? Um, we did look at a couple different uh >> cut it off >> layouts of the of the building to kind of make create like a L shape and everything like that, but you know, you're pulling it up here. It's mainly on that commercial property side. We're we're staying away from here because of this corner tight corner. You know, we're off that property line a little bit more than some of some of the probably the allowable setbacks, you know. So, >> do do you I you know how the building's constructed. Could it be such that the west side's two stories and east sight's three? >> Again, I think that's something we just have to look at. We have to look at the design costs and and the budgets and everything like that. I think ideally uh three stories um >> is how we set out for it. >> Yeah, I understand that. I suspect though that you might have a problem with three stories. >> Yeah, >> the three is a problem for me definitely. >> Yeah, >> especially on this such >> the three in this location. Three in a different location. I would be I would be okay with it would depend on the location, but three in this location I struggle with. Yeah. But I could get behind a two and a three. So I think that's it sounds like that's kind of our only input here. >> Is that right? >> Yeah. >> The three is a problem. Um, >> what about a step or just a >> Yeah, I wouldn't have problem with that if uh >> right about where the white box is. >> If you went two there and three on the other side, >> what is your issue with three in general, Stephanie? >> Uh, well, fast forward to a future item. if you don't have the ability to reach that third story, that's going to be a really big issue, especially when you have a more vulnerable um person living in these units. Um >> yeah, >> that that's my hangup and the chief can tell me if I'm on the right track here, but adding a three-story building with the vulnerable adults in it is probably not or even vulnerable people in it. um you know, if you don't have the equipment to get to them to rescue them, like that's going to be a really really big issue. >> If I'm on the wrong track, please correct me, Gary. >> Uh Mayor and Council Member Henderson, no, that accurate statement. Um this will come up later as council member Henderson said, but currently we have the accessibility with a 24 foot ladder. So, we don't really have the accessibility currently to even we can get to the second floor, but we'll we'll have some struggles. >> Are your uh facilities typically three stories? >> Yeah, a lot of them or or well I I do uh multif family apartments as well. So, I've done up to, you know, four stories looking at a sixtory. Um, one thing I will say about this uh project in particular is it's non-combustible non-combustible construction. So the what that means is all metal uh framing for the walls in L of wood and then JIP and then you have there's two stair towers one on each end of the building and we have it outfitted right now with two elevators. You know the idea is that like yeah you can have a problem with one elevator but it's not very common to have both go down at the same time. So we always have an elevator open for access up and down throughout the building. So and the building is will be fully sprink sprinkling as well. You have anything, Dave? >> Well, I'm thinking about the you know, what does that do to it if it's two stories on one end? So, you >> visually I think it works better for the the neighborhood to the west. Um, at least the the nearer part of it to them is is lower. I'm just looking at where the the you're still going to have to have two stair towers to that third floor. I don't know where that fits in. and exactly how the elevators would work, but >> that's something for you to I guess puzzle out. >> Yeah. So, it's about if we if we not to cut you off, sorry, but if we took half of it out, we'd be reducing it by 11 units, >> the overall >> what about >> of 58. >> What would that do as far as the two paths down? I mean, like like Dave was saying, you third floor would just be limited to the one stairwell and one >> Yeah, we we'd have to work through the design there, but it >> if if we were going to do it, you know, maybe >> cut it right here. >> Then you got your elevators here, >> you know, and you got this we have this kind of common area that goes all the way up. >> Um, >> okay. So on the third floor, you'd still have two elevators and one stairwell. >> Yeah. Then you'd have one stairwell on the third floor. Yeah. You wouldn't have two until you got down to the lower levels. >> So I have another question related to kind of the layout. And maybe this is just kind of a stock um thing that you're showing here, but are or are you actually having a number of semi-private rooms in this facility because a lot of them show two beds. Um they they they have the ability to have two beds. I guess I didn't. >> Yeah, we did factor in couples. If couples want to move in, we want to have rooms that couples can can >> So this would be like husband and wife kind of >> correct. In the third floor. Yes. >> Not Yeah. Not sharing a room. Yeah. The the rooms were designed to be private. And I think the the the two kind of suites were kind of on the corners. The rest of them in the middle were kind of your typical uh unit, which would be a a bed, a bathroom, and then a kitchenet with a mini fridge and a microwave. >> Okay. And you're just showing that second bed if there was a a couple kind of a arrangement where they were moving in together. >> Okay, that makes more sense to me. Um, and then I asked this of the last applicant, too. What sort of tier of of u seniors are you taking into this facility to accept Medicare payments for the same same scenario. Okay. >> Um are you operating who cuz you're you're building the building. >> Yep. We're >> and you're operating the senior correct. Okay. Okay. We're good. I >> I do have one more question. Sorry. Um you've got parking spaces underground. Are those for the residents or for the caregivers? Are your >> res? >> So they would be driving in and out of this. >> Yeah. The the third floor are more independent. They're moving in as a couple. They can still drive around. >> Okay. >> But as they slow down, then they come down to where more care is given. Like you look at the first floor issues where the nurses are there is and they start so they are more independent up but they can they keep slowing down and moving down to more more care is given. >> Is that something that we would have to at some point adjust cuz I mean I at least my experience is that when couples move in here there's only one car so I don't know about our parking ordinances. Do we accommodate >> mayor couple? I think the answer is not specifically. >> I didn't think so. >> No, it's a half a car, half of one vehicle per unit. >> Per unit. So, I think we exceed that. I think we exceed that total count like on our site as it sits right now. >> What did you just say? Half of half. >> So, the assumption of assisted living is you don't have res. >> So, we do have assisted living in our parking ordinance. >> Yes. >> Oh, I did not know that. >> I think we did. >> Yeah, I didn't correct. I apologize. >> You've never used it? Cuz we don't have We don't have any. Okay. >> Which is all we don't know about it. >> Well, then it sounds like it's sized right. So, >> any other comments or questions? >> My only thing and I like both projects. I'm not sure we need both projects. That's the one thing. >> I just right across the street from each other. Okay. I I'm not saying yes or no. It's the thing that popped into my head. I was like, do we need two right across the street from each other? But if they both feel like there's enough people >> Oh, >> then that's fine. Um, >> like from a business model standpoint, if you feel like it's fine to have competition literally across the street from you and you feel like you're not going to have an issue filling your spaces, it just seemed we going from we don't have any. So having two is not an issue. It's that they're literally across the street from each other. That just felt a little odd to me. >> And yeah, >> I have been in in the healthcare business for around >> 14 years now. >> Yeah. the most patients in a hospitals trying to get a bed open for them to go. >> Okay. >> So, there's more need and we can even feed within around the you don't have empty beds. >> Okay. So, that's just like I said, I was just odd that they were going to be right across the street from each other and this will become that neighborhood then. >> Were you aware of this other project when you were putting yours together? So, this is new information for you as well. >> Like the planning commission that's when we found out about it. >> Sure. Oh, I do have one more question. >> Go ahead. >> How many facilities do you have run own? I don't know what the right word is. >> Right now, I run a hospice company. >> Oh, >> we just go to patients homes. We don't have a particular facility where they come to, but we we looked at um if we have a facility, it can be easier to have them in one place and take care of them in one place. Okay. >> Than driving around the 16 counties I do to visit. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Right. Mayor, may I ask? >> Thank you. >> May I ask one quick question? >> Um, there's a movement currently at this I'm sure it's at the state legislature some capacity for a single stairway exit with your reduction from this a three to a two. Would you still maintain multiple stairways? Could the stairway be moved closer to the elevators versus at the west end of the building? >> Uh, we'd have to look at the design and if that I mean if that's the code that would have to allow, I guess we'd have to figure out a way to get it done. >> Well, currently so my my concern is this is there is a current movement to move to single stairway exits, meaning that we're trying to get in, residents are trying to get out. >> Oh, sure. >> And so the movement from the fire service is to oppose that. >> Okay. So my my recommendation or my request would be that there would still be two stairway stairwells within the structure for residents to exit and for us to enter if that's the case. Just as more of a comment. >> All right. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Quick last question. Just as he was speaking I was thinking so for the two if we do a two floor does the underground parking still a requirement then? Because if the height is an issue, then we can take away the underground. >> I think you need the underground parking. >> I think we need it for our parking counts. >> Yep. >> And we'd have to look at the number of units and what that for the >> if we reduce the number of units, what does that do to the parking counts? Can we reduce it? Maybe cut it in half or or what? So, I think there's some things that we would have to look at for that whole >> Yeah. or maybe still a three-story building but not quite so close to that property line if that >> Yeah, they talked about at the county planning commission that it looks like you you really can't shift it to the east. >> We can't. Yeah. And if we cuz we're going to now we're going to shift it to the south to get a little bit more of a road to get the fire road in there that it's probably about where where it can be. >> It can be okay. >> But going back to parking, well, yeah, that's that's a that's an issue for you guys to work out obviously, but >> yeah. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Item T, the uh ever irritating A3 thing. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh item T is resolution 98-2025 to amend the comprehensive plan in ordinance 2025-22 to amend the A3 agricultural district. Um I I going to shorten this. I I'm assuming the council is familiar with this project. Um the council approved a comprehensive plan amendment, an amendment to the A3 district um this past August or September. Um I think it was August. U the amen the comp plan amendment was submitted to the Met Council. The Met Council responded with an incomplete letter. Um they had two big concerns. One is um the Met Council is opposed to the 2030 uh sewer stage area from being included within the the land that's eligible to be reszoned to A3. And then second is to um you know summarize it have some way of of um requiring or reserving 75% of the developable land within the A3 district uh to be reserved for future subdivision once sewer becomes available. So um just to what does that look like? So the first item of removing 2030 land from A3 el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el eligibility um this affects five parcels that are owned by two property owners. Um I have spoke with both of them. Um kind of their their intent they would like to they would like to develop sooner rather than later whether it's sewer or without sewer. Um this doesn't I guess in staff's opinion this doesn't have a huge impact to uh the intent of the A3 district to remove this. Uh it's 179 acres total um which amounts to 17 potentially 17 homes. Um so this is um the five parcels that would be removed. Uh so this is how the new line is drawn and then this is this the uh future 2040 sewer staging plan. Um that shows in the kind of pinkish parcels these are the parcels that are 20 acres or larger that would be eligible to be reszoned to A3 agricultural. And just for anyone that's watching this that's not as familiar with it in order with the A3 district, the intent is if you have um 20 acres or or larger, you're eligible to reszone to A3 and to subdivide. Um but it's two homes per 20 acres. So that's why it's a minimum of 20 acres. Um yeah, that's that's the short summary of it. Um, with the proposed amendment to the A3 district, we are removing um, the old language, which I don't have that on a slide, and replacing it with a blue text. Um, just to be to summarize this real quickly, um, item A states that in order to be reszoned to A3, it has to be guided as unsoured rural residential in the comp plan. Um, so if you're in northeast, this is specific to northwest Dayton. So, if you're in South Dayton, zone A, you don't qualify or you're not eligible to be reszoned to A3. Um, item B with a concept plan and preliminary plant, uh, it's required that the applicant submit a ghost plat showing how the property could be subdivided for a higher density. Uh, so the the suggestion would be probably R1 zoning for as far as lot sizes go. Um item C is to allow maximum of 25% of the developable land in a project to be developed. So um developed we're defining as including the rightway uh storm water and a house pad up to or minimum of a half acre. So kind of in other words is proof that the the property is developable or that each lot is developable. Item D, this is addressing the Met Council's concern and just to summarize it again, is preserve 75% of developable acres for future sewer development. And you do that by requiring the developer to record I'm going to call it a covenant, but there's there's more declaration >> declaration. >> A declaration of covenants and restrictions. >> Yes. Uh so this is a a document that the developer would record prior to recording the plant that just says that they agreed to uh these six conditions and and these are permanent uh I shouldn't say permanent. They're permanent for 30 years or until uh sewer and water is available. Uh item E is the pre-arning pl identify the house pad and and the uh the two septic system locations. Um and then F is a requirement of the Met Council that upon the availability of municipal sewer and water, the city shall permit parcels within the A3 district to be reszoned to a zoning district with a higher residential density consistent with metropolitan council policy. >> Shall permit not required. >> Correct. >> So the city's practice is that we don't reszone property without the applicants or without the property owner's consent. Yeah, that seems like an odd one because that's that's kind of the default. >> Yeah. I mean, the whole point of this was Okay. >> They wanted there. >> Yeah. Um um we try to look at legacy woods and and estimate what how does the new changes affect legacy roads as an example. So um again with the A3 district you can only develop 25% of the developable acres and legacy woods we're estimating once you take out the rightway the storm water pond and halfacre per lot that equals about 14%. So 14 is less than than 25%. Um with the A3 district there's uh allows up to 25% impervious surface per lot. Uh so with every zoning district we have a maximum imperous surface area whether you're agricultural or or R1 R3 whatever it is. So um the 20 originally this was approved at 30% and then I think the council this last time uh approved it at 25%. It's still not I'm not aware we've run into the imperfect surface as an issue on residential properties. And then again, uh this is the overall sewer staging plan for the city. Uh the map at the left, uh shows the hatched areas that are parcels that are eligible for A3 zoning. Um the map at the right is a focused area of Northwest Dayton that shows the ultimate sewer plant. So this is hypothetically where approximately where sewer and water would be extended to Northwest Dayton. city staff stand for any questions. >> Oh, you're okay. I wasn't sure you were done. Um, >> why I guess it's kind of moved now. They've seen this boundary, right? >> Yes. >> The Met Council. >> Okay. Um, I I do also want to add a preference. Um, you know, this is 2025 or we're almost in 2026. Uh, 2028 is when our next comp plan update is due and I'm anticipating that the council is going to change the sewer staging plan. >> So, what you approve tonight is good until the next amendment >> within the next couple years. So to that end, there were some comments about changing or dumping the post 2050 >> designation because they don't use it. Why would we make that change to this plan when it's, >> you know, sort of in its sunset stage? >> Met council plans out 20 years ahead of time. And so we have um so for the next plan, we'll have a 2030 sewer staging area, a 2040, and a post 2040. So post 2040 is anything after 2040. When we adopted the the current comprehensive plan, we went a step further and did 2050 or post 2050. Um that's above and beyond what the Met Council's requirement is. Um so they just this was a very short conversation of suggesting that we combine 2040 and post 2050 together. >> Yeah. It just doesn't doesn't make sense to me to do it now. If they if they didn't like that designation, then they shouldn't have approved the the 2040 plan. >> Sure. >> So, if we were to redesate this area that had 2030 in it to 2040 or 2050, we're kind of stuck because now we have this outline in here. We would have to >> we would a Yes. >> We would have to amend this also. >> Mayor Yeah. Mayor, mayor, members, council, the idea would be to amend the c the staging plan to adjust where the A3 availability would be. So, we would do that as part of the staging plan update that we're going to already do anyways with the Met Council package. >> As the hatching would show, we would just change where the hatching is available based on the fact that we would change the staging plan anyways based on the Stewart staging plan from the culture's perspective. So, it's not going to be any additional work. It's going to be the same map. >> You mean for the next comp plan? Yeah. For the next comprehensive plan. >> Yes. >> Well, and yeah, and that's I guess that's I I wasn't too much concerned about this amendment, but in the future, if let's say we decided to sweep this thing out to the to the east, we'd still have to change not just I mean, let's say this the the stuff to the east had 2040 already in it. We would have to make an amendment to change the border also. >> Uh it well, I wouldn't say it's amendment. We're going to do this all at one process project. >> I'm talking about in the future. >> Yeah. We would do as one map amendment whether you're moving 2040 staging plan or whether you're adjusting where the A3 district is available to. It's one adjustment on the map at the same time. >> I think you're I think you're we're at the same point in understanding where >> Well, my concern is is that we basically designated where we would put a zoning, which seems very odd for our comp plan. Um >> instead of a guided use, we we codified this in the comp plan instead of you know our internal documents >> instead of allowing everywhere in the entire city. >> Yeah. >> Like we currently do with other zoning districts, you can have those anywhere in the city depending on where the >> right so we're stuck with this. >> Yes. So in the compine we have agric, you know, currently agricultural land that's guided for commercial. >> Yep. >> Um, >> yeah, I get your point here. >> Nothing else is limited to a certain subsection. >> Correct. >> And this is >> And this is so Yeah, it's kind of moot now. >> I think this is, but I don't think we would have gotten it any other way. >> Well, >> I'll leave that alone. >> We're going to redo the comp plan and we can revisit it. >> All right. I would like to just reopen. I know it's a long meeting and we're already at 9:30, but um the 1.5 net acres is the minimum lot size. I wanted five acres to begin with and uh I I would I said I would settle for three and we wanted 1.5. Anyone else have appetite to bring that back up to at least three net acres? >> No. >> Okay. Did >> the Met Council say that they preferred it to be >> two and a half? >> Yeah. So, it was a >> two and a half. They were >> a comment or recommendation that it be more than Yeah, I think it was two and a half. >> One and a half is just a big yard. That's not a hobby farm. That's not a homestead. That's just a big yard. >> Um the mech council >> depends on who you are though. >> It really does. >> Yep. the mech council's reasoning for why wanting more than an acre and a half is assure there's enough land for the second the backup uh septic system drain field. Uh we did have a conversation with the Henipin County septic inspector who said that an acre and a half or net one and a half net acres would be the minimum that he would recommend. >> You know, >> yeah, we don't need to get into that, but that's such a >> where they live. I that's where I live. There's two sites on almost every lot and they're third of an acre. >> Yeah. >> Are you looking at me? >> No, I I'm only only because you live there and that's where I used to live, but all those sites have have space for for two. It's tight, but and that's third of an acre lot. So, this acre and a half. So, there's plenty of room for another. >> We're in the ditch. But >> I'm just >> I just wanted to know if there's appetite and the answer was no. No, no. So, fine. >> I didn't say no. >> Well, but there was three nos and so therefore >> three nos. Yeah. Well, as long as we're just getting out things that we don't >> like. I I don't have a I don't have a problem with the with the ghost platting thing, >> but it it kind of bugs me that they're telling us that we had to change a word in there to say that we require it >> in reference to the flexible development guidelines of theirs, but we have to require it. >> Yeah, I thought that was takes. >> Okay, I said it. I'm done. It's okay. That's a safe circle. >> All right. Um, yeah, this this might feel good probably. Yeah. >> All right. What do you need from us then? Just the approval of the >> approval. >> Yes. >> Yep. >> Anybody have any more comments or we will need a motion and a second. >> I'll make a motion to approve. >> Okay. Dave and Scott. Any more discussion? All those in favor say I. >> I. >> All those opposed say no. Carries five to to zero. >> Thank you. Item U, payment of claims. >> C. >> My notes at home. >> I got nothing. >> Wow. >> Staff will stand for any questions. >> Anybody fire away? David, >> I have uh I have nothing on the payment of claim system. >> Anybody? >> Okay, I need you guys did it right. >> It wasn't a big deal and they're at home right every time. >> Yeah, >> Marty's got one thing on there. It's something something platform. Whatever platform means. >> That's the bucket truck. >> That's what it is. >> That was at the end of the inspection, I think. Could could have said bucket lifeline. >> We got a motion second. >> Um Oh, there's Oh, sorry. You need a motion second. >> Sorry, >> you got the second chance. Who? Sorry. First >> Scott. >> Scott's first. And who's the second? >> I'll second. >> Okay, >> Stephanie. Any more discussion? >> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. All those opposed say no. Carry five to zero. >> And with that we are on to item B. >> Like to take a break or are you guys still >> Anybody need a break? >> Could use a break. >> All right. We'll j for three minutes. I make it five. We're back. >> Go ahead, Chief. >> Good evening, mayor, members of council. Um, before you tonight is the approval for the cancellation of the aerial truck contract with McQueen Emergency. Um, I know at the previous council meeting or the meeting before, I don't recall. Oh. um discussion of cancellation of truck. Um I do want to clarify for the um constituent that called in earlier um that there is no 10% fee for a man for $250,000 for the cancellation of this contract. Um I spoke with them um at length and um it does state in the contract that McQueen may charge the cancellation fee. Um so um they um were willing to uh forego the cancellation fee um knowing that um they probably continue to do business with us in the future as well. Um with that being said um I do want to bring up a couple things from my perspective um and the fact that Council Member Henderson had brought it up earlier. We do have some uh facilities, if you will, uh that are looking to come with into the community. Currently, right now, um the extent of our ability to get beyond the second floor is non-existent without the assistance of our mutual aid companies. Currently, the largest ladder we currently have is a 24T ground ladder. You put that back a little bit and it gets us to maybe the second floor, depending on setbacks. Um I did have a discussion this week um with our mutual aid partners um Chief Fair, Chief Sickman from A Grove and then Chief Mazakati from Pinoa Champlain. Um as any uh mutual aid uh request um the hope is that it's reciprocal at some point. Um we've had great response from our neighbors as it relates to the need to request um a ladder and with that um we've had no issues. Um so therefore um don't see any reason that they would not continue to provide that but at the same time at some point the idea is that it is reciprocal back to them and us being able to provide that for them. Um, hence, um, as I stated in the, uh, my position is, um, I do not support the cancellation of the ladder truck, um, for a couple reasons. There's more than a couple, but, primarily, as was discussed this evening earlier, for assisted care facility, um, greater than two stories. Um, we do have single family residential residential homes that I currently can't get to roof access. We had a recent fire um last summer over the a lightning strike in the River Hills neighborhood that did um require um the needs of Anoka Champlain um to come and help with that. Um so there's definitely needs to do that. Um, with this um, moving forward, um, I did have an opportunity and thank council member Salonica having a conversation as it relates to possibly um, trying to look at alternative means to purchase the ladder and delay the engine tender. So my request is or my thought process is that um the 1.165 or thereabouts, whatever that number is that we've paid in cash for the engine tender, that's anticipated for delivery um end of December of 27, beginning of 28. Um I'd be interested in understanding if the council would be interested in taking those dollars and putting that towards the 2.49 497 number for a ladder. Um, I also did take the opportunity to speak with McQueen to see if they would be interested in or willing to um move the engine tender out to 2030 or 2031. Um, that's something um that would be completely up to them of course um being that that is what we 25 so six years out fundamentally. In this case, we did four years on this initial contract um for the engine tender. Um so I'm not sure exactly of uh our sales rep was working with uh McQueen to see kind of what liability they're interested in assuming so to speak um being it is that far out. So, I don't have an exact number, if you will, for what the cost of that ladder or excuse me, the engine tender would be, but based on some rough math from the email that we did receive from uh Pat Sand and the sales rep from McQueen is roughly if we did push that out um to 2028, as you can see up here, it' be 1.725 million in in 2028. Roughly about six and a quarter thousand per month increase on average. So, if we look at the ladder truck and we push that out, um, if we purchase in 2028 to kind of give some comparisons, um, that would be about 11 12,000 per month increase on average. So, a total increase of, you know, about 6 $25,000 increase if we delayed the purchase by pushing out to 2028. So my concern is uh the additional cost to the community with the fact that there is a need currently within the community that we do need a ladder. Um we are looking to replace um engine 21 that we put a fair amount of dollars into. Um but we plan on uh maintaining that being we did $45,000 worth of engine work and so forth here. Uh not here in 25 but last year. Um, so we can continue to utilize the two pieces of apparatus that we have today knowing that at some point in the future that truck will need to be replaced. Um, but we could push it out. Again, like I said, I don't have the exact numbers of what that would look like, but I wanted to get gain if there's any interest in the council. Um, if not, then you can continue to pursue the cancellation of the contract. >> Chief, I'm Can you back up a little? Oh, sorry. >> I'm kind of confused about this. >> Um, so sticking with I guess either one of these guys, let's stick with Ariel. My understanding was we would uh make that purchase decision uh just prior to us needing to which I thought was out in 27 or 28. >> Are you following me? >> I'm not. I'm sorry. So, it's a it's a three and a half year build process or something like that. >> Yep. >> And which and my understanding was we wouldn't need to make that payment until close to delivery. >> Mayor, that is correct. So, for example, let's say that council is interested in pursuing my request of uh taking the dollars that we've have towards the engine tender, putting that towards the ladder. We'd have roughly about u 1.4 4 million deficit. Um that payment would not be required until we took delivery. The other option that we do have is we do have the ability to use um PN PNC bank as an example. We don't have to use that, but uh Pearson McQueen used PNC Bank and we could delay that payment further. We would take delivery in 2028 and then we delay that first payment until 2029. and uh in talking with Zach and Zach can fill in the finances, but we probably would look at financing that additional 1.4 million um on a 5-year term with PNC. >> So, let me not muddy the waters with the tender. Let's pretend that doesn't exist. >> Yep. >> And we're going to look at let's say we kept on track with this aerial. When would we have had to make the purchase the when would we have have to write the check out? >> Oh, it's once it's ready. I would think >> we would Yeah. The the current contract has us spending the physical money in 2028. I think that's where maybe you're a bit confused, mayor, is because December 2028 shows now it's almost on 3.125 million. >> That's if you buy it again. >> So, yeah. So let's say we cancel this contract and then say in December 2028 we want to receive this piece of equipment in 3 and 1/2 years from then >> the new contract would cost us 3.125 million. If we were to say cancel this one today >> in 2 and 1/2 years or whatever the time is in 2028 we said okay no now we need it we want it 3 and a half years later >> that new cost is now 3.125. Again, these are rough estimates based on the increase of a five and a half percent increase yield. >> Hopefully that makes sense. I think the 2028 thing makes it a little confusing with the >> Yes. So, basically, >> does that same logic then and I'm sorry I'm mixing this in, but >> the same logic then apply to how you stated how the tender would work be >> cancelling and then reordering at that time. Correct. >> Correct. >> I have a question. That's 25%. Is that kind of the number you looked at? >> Yes. >> And that's over the three years. >> Yeah. So that's based on the So the current contract was approved for the aerial was approved in May of 24. So it's a 25% increase from May of 24 until December 2028. So it's technically >> 4 and a half years. >> Okay. >> It's 25% increase. That's why I tried to >> That's 6% year. Okay. I got it based on 5 and a half%. >> You got it. Yep. So the contract for the engine tender is a little miscon misleading because that's a November of 23 date contract and so now it would be December 20. So that's actually a fiveyear difference between the contract terms and then that will give you another five and a half percent. >> How much did we we prepaid part for the tender, right? >> 1.1 >> we paid the engine tender has been paid for in cash. So that's completely paid for. >> Yeah, that's paid >> 1.1 something. >> We just had that sitting around >> 1.3. Well, >> we made a couple of deals. >> Okay. >> Is that is that engine construction yet >> or what? Council member Fashant. No. Um, we are scheduled to go back out to Pierce in July to start working on the physical drawings and then moving to the next step. >> Okay. >> For both unions. >> I have a a series of like logistical like questions like data points if you could answer them for me because I'm trying to wrap my head around >> what the impact of not having the engine tender would be. How many gallons of water can that one hold? The engine tender um is scheduled to be 2500 gallons. >> Okay. And the tanker right now holds >> um engine here at station uh oh the tanker I'm sorry uh is 2500 gallons currently. So right now okay sorry my my wheels are turning because I didn't have these numbers before. I guess where I'm struggling is not it taking the engine tender cuz that's like a first do vehicle, right? Like it's people, water, and tools to where you need to be. So you're able to do work. You have um 2500 gallons of water on that rig where right now we've got the tanker that comes and then one of the engines that come. >> Yeah. So for from a deployment perspective, every time we get a structure fire, our engines are the first out the door. So give an example. Currently engine 21 has 1,000 gallons capability >> and engine 12 has around 2,000 or 1,800 17 or 1,800 gallons >> of water um capacity on that particular truck. So between the two, we're bringing out about 2,800 gallons of water. um you know flowing 150 gallons a minute. It's not going to take that long. You know, we're not always constantly flowing at 150 gallons a minute, but there is the potential to do that. >> How old are those two trucks, Gary? >> Um engine 12 is 2019. So, that was the most recent purchase um before my arrival. And engine 21 is 2015, I believe. >> So, they still got time. >> 21 is way older than that. >> Oh, I'm sorry. It's >> we had 11. So yes, we had engine 11 for that was in 2015 and we sold that one to get the engine tender here to put the money down for it. >> Yep. >> And we bought the tanker. >> Um Yes. So we sold engine 11. We sold the old heavy rescue. >> Um and those dollars went to partially pay for the tanker because it was just basically a bite our time until we got this engine tender. We're going to resell it for the same amount of money that we've paid for, which would be the same. Um, and then be able to put down towards the piece. But 21's like an 0807. >> Uh, yeah. It's supposed to be scheduled for 20 year replacement. So >> 28 I think is on the contract 2030. So >> Gary, when you say scheduled, >> they're not there's no NTSB 4965 >> whatever whatever. >> Yep. No council muslottic there is not typically what we see and and this is kind of what Zach alluded to before in in the long-term plan is that we want to probably get to probably about 12 years why 12 years um you know for instance we can run the truck to the ground which is fine many places have done it however we start to incur significant amount of maintenance as we did incur on 21 and we still continue to in some capacity um and And what we also lose is we lose the value of that truck from a trade-in perspective. So we did very well on engine 11. I trying to remember 2015 2016 I think was the purchase of that one. And in that capacity we had a return of investment >> or it was 450,000 I believe. >> Yeah, I think we got 450 and I think we bought it for like 800,000. I think it was over 50%. I think it was pretty >> I don't believe it. We >> I'm pretty sure it was. It was not that much of a loss. I can look up. >> Do you know roughly how much money we've put into engine 21? Cuz it's had substantial repairs. >> Yeah. >> I mean, even a rough ballpark. >> I'm going to say we did 45,000 on the on the engine just on the motor itself. That was in 24. >> And >> that was because of the change. There was something with the oil changes and >> there was something with the turbo where it's getting oil up into the turbo. Um, and then we've had some, uh, >> valve replacements, which are typical over time, but those aren't cheap either. Um, you know, 2 $3,000 a valve can be easily spent in that capacity over time. >> So, I guess like kind of where I'm getting at with all of my questions is like I personally see the value in the engine tender. >> Yes. Because, you know, again, it's the people, the water, the tools. It has the ability to have all of those there. get all of those things to the scene. Um, which is again why I'm guessing we've been down this road and why it was purchased in the first place. >> Um, so for me, I see the value in keeping the engine tender and not forfeiting that and pushing that down the road, especially with well, we did a bunch of work to engine 21, so maybe there's the argument on the other side of we've put all this money into it. Do we really want to? >> But it's already into it. >> Correct. Well, I'm just saying like, do you really want to like replace it with something else? Um, on the other side of that, I also understand the ask of the Ariel. >> Sure. >> Um, the the timing and the dollar amount, I think, is where we're all for myself a little bit hung up there of >> um >> number of houses to pay for it. >> Correct. So, I guess my question is is understanding the value and what having that piece of equipment does for the citizens of Dayton and the fire department. Is there another option? I know there are some communities that purchase them from other communities. Like, have we explored that option? >> So, from a use perspective, I can give you one example. I don't know exactly the cost. I'm just going to throw out a number because I don't know for sure, but I give I do believe um and I haven't checked with uh the chief yet in Hopkins, but I believe Hopkins is replacing their ladder. Um it's an 18-year-old ladder. Um ballpark maybe 500,000. Um but then again, I don't know condition, maintenance, and so forth. So, um I don't even know if that's a realistic number. Um, but that is something that yes, we can look at used equipment. Um, I don't have an issue with that. I just know that the the one example I'll give you is engine 21 and then the money that which is very unfortunate right now of, like I said, we spent $3,500 in the rear end of 2019, a 2019 truck that only has 16,000 miles on it. Um, which is frustrating. Um, no one's fault. doing the maintenance and whatnot. But so we could end up with a significant maintenance bill. I don't know. I know I can give one example from city of Plymouth. Um when I was there many years ago, um they did have to replace they harvested the ladder portion and had to replace the chassis and then there's some issues of that capacity. >> So it can be >> fairly expensive. Uh, but that's we definitely can take a look at what used trucks are out there and available. >> Well, and I guess I would want to also be specific about it too that like in order to get into purchasing a used truck from another community, we would definitely want to know like maintenance records and all like it wouldn't be just, oh yeah, so and so's got a truck like let's do it. I guess I'm just looking at like other communities and I was able to go through and look um at some other council like packets and stuff and um you know like Orno bought Rapids and they put some money into that. They purchased it for less than or less than 400,000 and they end up having to put another you know almost $300 and some thousand into it. But again like that price tag is still under well under a million dollars. So, like I think I I'm sorry if I keep talking. I apologize. But I see the value in having it. I just want to know if there's another avenue that we can make it possible cuz a lot of the trucks that like I found that were purchased were 15 years old. Um so they're not like, "Oh, this is a seven-year-old truck." So I understand that there will come other obstacles with that. But I think it's a a workable path where the citizens are protected, the fire department has what they need, but we're not attached to a $2.4 million price tag and then I'll get off my soap box. >> I want to follow up on one that we mentioned earlier about when we sold and when we not sold. So, I went back and was able to review when we bought that 2016 vehicle, the engine 11. We paid $540,763. 54763 was the number and then we sold it again time value of money dollars are the same as they were then but we sold it in um February of 2024 for $427,500 we kind of made some >> so we almost broke almost even if you look at dollars between 540 grand we spent in 2016 and then sold it in 2024 for 427 grand >> and that was engine 11 you said >> engine 11 >> who did we sell it to >> sold it to a department of Wisconsin Is this a solution guys? >> The which thing? The the used >> No, no, no, no, no. >> Or the engine tend to swap. >> I mean, right now we're on the hook for nothing until 2028, late 2027. We could just leave it as as where we are >> and see if the picture gets better. How much? >> We don't have to pull either one of them until 2027. >> Council member Salonic, I do want to clarify based on what the contract says. Just for a point of clarification um to what you just said, the following charges or costs incurred may be applied 10% of the purchase price, which we're not um susceptible at this time. But as we continue to go down the road, um 20% of the purchase price after completion of approval of the drawing. So I'm assuming that would be in July. >> It's in July of next year. >> Um and then 30% of the purchase price upon material requisition. So that would probably be within I'm going to say 6 months or they're all >> I think it's yeah >> after that. My understanding from your council, it's either say no now and then we we are on the hook for zero which is what we've been told and agreed to or we are then potentially not for sure but potentially on the hook for some sort of percentage related to cancellation if we wait and not saying we don't wait till tomorrow but >> your your idea of a used unit you could look at a used >> tender I was trying to think of the name of it >> could do that also But >> yeah, >> you could you look at a used anything I guess to your point, Scott. Um, >> so can I just my I've never necessarily had an issue with the ladder truck. It was when I first saw the budget and we were putting away what felt like pennies >> and then I was like and now magically we have several million dollars and that just was like and how like walk me through the magic part where we have we went like we're saving $100,000 a year and now we have a couple million dollars. Um and I didn't get like at that time I didn't hear an answer really um to how that would get funded. And I guess that's still ultimately my issue is >> there always was a bond. Okay. >> So, what does that but what does that do to the tax base, I guess, is my question. >> It's about $600 an hour. >> Yeah. So, I don't know the numbers at the top of the head and I'm not going to start spending them because I have no idea what they are. >> How much have we put away? >> Yeah. So, we've put away just Well, with the budget not yet approved, nothing changes on the agenda and everything else. I think it's just over $200,000 will be total by the end of next year. Um the when the ladder truck was originally put in place, city staff put in the long-term plan larger increases to the tax levy to be able to build up a fund val so we pay cash for the vehicle, the aerial truck in 2028 when we took delivery of it. That was the idea for the process. Now the timing might not be okay, we we would have maybe we have to spend the money in 2027 at the end of the year, but then in 2028 we'd budget the money and get the rest of the money back. because we'd be out the money for less than 12 months and it would be fine. Um, and then those dollars would be able to be reallocated to be able to go towards facilities of a bond or whatnot. That hasn't happened. Um, which is fine. And then now we have to figure out how to adjust those things. No different than in your personal life if you save up five bucks a month, it's really easy, but if you have to save up $100 at one time, it's like, holy cow, it's a lot of money. And so that's kind of where we're at with the ladder truck. It's >> to some extent, we're also kind of it was an opportunity save. >> Yes. Um, >> yep. And but right now I think >> in the end we were going to bonding for most of that 2 million two and a half >> depending on how you view things. But that on city staff's perspective at least when I set out the long-term plan was to have they're large increases still. They're not $2.5 million a year. They were roughly $300,000 or so a year. They're still they're still a lot, but they're not $2.5 million. And then the idea was the 300,000 one year, 300,000 next year. Well then now you have $900,000 because you have 300 from the previous year and 300 from the new year. Now you have 600 a year and that that was and it was just kind of going to steamroll the process. That was the goal. >> And we got a wall coming. >> Yeah. >> That's not the wall. >> That's a wall. But that's not the wall. >> The idea was that if the wall hits like that, then we'd have the money available that we've already levied for for the other pieces of equipment that we could reallocate from the levies related to the piece of equipment to that bond for the wall. So basically your plan was that we would increase our tax from 35% to maybe 36% to maybe 37% maybe and now you had had a council that's like >> one really >> we're not increasing >> yeah I don't remember what the numbers were and they go those were based on projections of tax capacity as well and >> the projections of tax capacity haven't hit this year we only had 8% and I think I planned or thought it was going to be 12 well that's a big difference in numbers >> next year probably going to be lower >> could be you know, >> and again, those are all just projections. And >> but that was my big question in the beginning was like, where was this magic money going to come from? And and >> that was the plan at the time. >> Yeah. And so it's not it's not that I ever thought we didn't need a ladder truck. I definitely hear we need a ladder truck. I just and when I'm thinking about what this is going to do to our residents taxes and how high that increase is going to have to wind up being, I have a hard time that's where that's where my wall is is increasing the taxes to that level. So, if there's a way to find a used option to get us through and I understand like like that's, you know, that's a lot of savings. I get that. Um, and if my goal is to not increase taxes, then I want to have the cheapest option. So, I get that. But that's that's where my my two disconnected. Like, and I think this is where I'm going to go back to my barn analogy. Um, I wanted eight really nice dolls and then I got the quote for eight really nice dolls and that was never gonna happen. And so I had a choice. I could either do eight shitty dolls or I could do three really nice dolls. And I went with the three really nice dolls and I will wait and maybe never get my other five. That might never happen, right? But like, so I think that's where we're kind of at. We have our really nice dolls and I don't think we have the money for eight really nice dolls. And so that leads the question of what are our options? Do we do we >> and that where I'm and I hate this idea of forcing a future council's hand that they have to increase taxes. >> They will have more houses that I mean we have this big ugly coming. >> Yeah. And I think this is part of prepping for it is to >> not have these these these I mean this is considering we have 4,000 homes 3,800 something like that. >> Yeah, it's just it's over 4,000. I think it's like 41 in some change or something like that. um we don't have the house space for >> So my question to you Dennis is is it a workable solution to say that we move forward and we cancel this contract and we give direction to begin conversations and looking for a used option that obviously meets all of our maintenance requirements and all those things and doesn't require another million dollars worth of work. and we can talk about what the options are down the road or like go ahead and start making and seeing who maybe in 2028 somebody is like, "Hey, we're taking a truck or we're gonna get a new one. We're going to sell ours." And you know, like you have your chief conversations and you figured that out. Is that an okay doesn't mean that we're going to find a perfect one. It doesn't mean that we're not. >> Um >> I I think so. >> I'm trying to find a middle between like bridging the gap. You know, we we today, assuming we would go forward with this, at some point, we would have four engines. And I'm not sure where we're going to stuff those four engines. >> No, we would engine 21 and the T or Yeah, engine 21 and the tanker make up the engine tender. Correct. >> Or the tank. >> So, the the idea is that there's a couple things. So, the tanker that we have, we could resell. >> Yeah. >> Probably make a little bit of money. >> That's actually the the plan on that. Yes, that was the plan. >> That was the original plan. >> How that worked out really well. >> However, I would say because of even uh working with Chief Arens and I haven't had a chance to talk to interim Chief Scott in Sego, but we are starting to run low, if you will, on surrounding communities that are maintaining their tankers any longer. So, like we're continuing to go farther west out to get more of them because this surrounding area is all pretty much has a water source. Um that's not saying that we can't sell the uh our current tanker that we have. Um when we bought that and even in talking to McQueen um we would definitely get what we paid for it if not probably maybe another 50,000 potentially based on this condition. Um so we did really well there in that capacity. Um so um with the and the other idea too is is that it doesn't hurt to um kind of go back to having those three engines from a backup perspective. As you're well aware, we've had one go down for repairs or whatnot or accident. Um, so we've been short one and then just letting our neighbors know that they were short, just so you're aware. So, um, we can make it work um, fit the apparatus within the facilities that we currently have. Um, just to reaffirm that. So, just so that I'm following all of the numbers, we potentially may have money from the tanker and then the money we've put away that we could then put towards um I want to say use a pre-owned aerial >> and that would be a a workable solution for the fire department >> for us. We get out from underneath this or out of in front of this huge wall, but we still leave the door open to find a cheaper solution. I sent you a picture of an aerial about probably a month and a half ago. >> Is that the one on Highway 10? >> No. No. Just kidding. >> No, throw it. >> That's the one I sent you. >> Did you really? >> Oh, yeah. >> Here you go. >> So, quick question. Um, do you So, you're proposing one an option is to swap out the tender for the aerial. Do you feel that the aerial is I mean, you're the expert. Do you feel the aerial is more important than the tender in this in this time frame? >> Do you look for a used aerial or do you look for a used tender? One of them's got to be used probably, >> right? And I would say that I'd work I would look for a used tender over a used ladder. >> Okay. >> Um but and I think the the reality of the need is here. Um use the cues building, anything that you can imagine that's over 20 ft. That's our challenge currently. And then the ability to extinguish, you know, not necessarily affect a rescue, you know, physically go up and get somebody with it, but really that aerial master stream to drop down onto it. We don't have that capability. Um, but I can I completely understand where council is coming from from the dollar perspective. Um, I was just trying to look for another option to bring um to see if that was something that was amanable to the council. >> And I I very much appreciate that. So, so if if I'm kind of where we're we can maybe manage one new and one used and if if your professional opinion I maybe I'm just I'm okay I would be okay with one new one used and if your opinion is that the aerial is what should be new and the tender you think you could find a used one better or more reasonable or less maintenance or less moving parts I don't know enough I don't know but >> and and I I guess I'll clarify too I think the reality is is between engine 21, engine 12, and our current tender, we are fine until 2031ish. >> Okay? >> Before we need to purchase an engine tender, >> okay? So I could push it out because the request was going to be full disclosure is what you see in front of you the 20 the con or the request for the engine tender that we've already done the ladder and then looking at just from a cost savings again looking to come back to council and go okay hey we need to spend another 1.8 million another engine tender. So the idea is that we would have two engine tenders in the future that's the same one each station so roughly 5,000 gallons of water. we wouldn't have a need for our current tanker that we have. But that's kind of, you know, knowing kind of where we're at financially, talking to Zach and listening to what council's looking for. I'm just trying to again come up with some different options. >> And I do really appreciate the trying to all trying to work together to figure out how we can meet the needs of the city, but also not bankrupt, everybody. So the only way to fund an aerial if you were to do this in aerial because the chief brought it up to me and I said the only way we're really able to do that and it's either a start putting away sub a substantial amount of money >> which I just don't see happening in the next year or two to be able to afford the additional $1.3ish million difference between we've already paid McQueen. >> Yeah. >> And then the difference in what the contract says for the aerial. We would do the PNC bank. We might be able to pay some of it down. So we have $200,000 if the budget doesn't change. $200,000. We could pay some of that down towards McQueen right away. And then we just fund the rest through PNC. And it's typically a five-year lease or they call it a lease. It's really a five-year direct placement loan. So if you did a million dollars, that's 200 grand a year roughly and they're typically very low interest. PNC Bank is strides themselves on being able to help and afford local government agencies to be able to utilize them. And I think that's even culture. I think you brought up PNC Bank or lease companies that use PNC Bank for abilities to be able to fund these larger purchases. So, >> um just rough numbers just so you're aware like the hundred grand that you have allocated today, you'd have to make that another $100,000. So, it wouldn't be that much of an increase. I mean, it's still an increase, but not that much to be able to put 200 grand away for five or maybe even six years to be able to pay for. Does that make sense? Mhm. >> Cuz right now, right now we're putting away $15,000 a year or something like that >> towards the purchase of the aerial land. >> So it's roughly 2 or 3%. >> Yes. Because you'd have to just add the 100 grand difference for the lease payment on the five years >> um at the time of the purchase of the contract. >> So really in reality it doesn't really matter. >> A bond is going to pay the taxpayer is going to pay for it no matter what. I don't know if there's a way to be honest with you just how >> it doesn't matter whether you uh to me it doesn't matter whether you uh use PNC or you get your own bond. I mean you >> Yep. >> you're still borrowing the money. >> Yep. >> Yeah. PNC is just basically a direct placement and they just pride themselves on using local government agencies to give them more interest. >> Either way either way it's >> whatever is the cheaper option for >> it's going to cost couple hundred grand a year on a levy. >> Yeah. It's going to something. Yeah, >> but it's not free. So, yeah. >> No, I would limit it to a couple hundred. >> So, I'm still digesting this. >> You got to give up. >> I'm not sandwich because the engine tender scenario wasn't something that we had talked through before as, you know, as an option or at least I didn't understand that it that way. I'm I'm trying to get more comfortable with it because it's you know, because it's a it's a way to get to an end here. You know, what I don't love about it is that the engine tender goes on every call, right? Versus the ladder where I understand that we're, you know, we're working ourselves into a place where we should have one. Um, but the latter is well, there's still significant parts of Dayton that are on well and septic, right? So you're bringing water >> um in places that we don't have adequate flow and and so on. So it's that's a real need for almost every every fire. The ladder I don't know you have to feed it with something is is that correct or does it carry water also? I don't remember the specs on council member Fashant. Often the ladder may carry 300 gallons of water which is very insignificant obviously. Um often um some come without pumps and are pumped by um the engine tender. Um there may be some cost savings there. It's not going to be a ton, but if you didn't put a pump on it, but that's not the norm, if you will, um some of the bigger cities. Um, so the one thing I would say too is that um I don't think that you need to make a decision today unless Zach says otherwise um on cancelling or moving in a direction. We can have further discussion. You know, if I can, you know, I don't know how you want to approach that. And my last comment is is most communities today um and to Councilman Salonic's point is that it's still money. it still cost the the consumer, the taxpayer constituent within the community regardless if you use PNC or if we bond for it. A lot of communities are now building these into their operational budget. So they're taking that PNC payment and they're building an operational plan and taking away from the capital improvement plan. So just point >> and then by delayed mayor's council would be okay, hey you guys want to table this item for July January 13th if that's something you want more time on think about for just different options. I think we should put a steak in and do do something. >> You sparked something for me, David. The engine tender will be out the door more often. And I think for me, if I had to pick one to be used or the other, I would think that you would want the apparatus that isn't used as often as opposed to the one that you're going to put the miles and the wearer and the tear on. >> Well, from Say that again. used perspective. >> From a used perspective, the engine tender would be if it was new, you're going to it's going out all the time where if you're >> Well, again, then it's sitting. But that's what you know what I'm trying to used. >> No, I mean the aerials are >> How about this? Can we I I understand why we want to get this done, but one of the big open questions is can we get a used option for either of these? Could we if we tabled it till January would that or would that give you an opportunity to say like >> yes there are like used aerials available period or like no there's not like a used aerial is simply not an option or like look there's seven used engine tenders to choose from and one used aerial and so therefore we have more options for the tenders like would that be enough time that's holidays maybe February um because as someone on well and septic like, you know, I would like water at my house if if it burns down. Um, but I also have a tall building. I don't know. But, um, this well, that's a whole different conversation. So, um, but the used the used thing was not something I had considered and I don't know, you know, we don't have numbers now because it's came up just now. Um, would that would you would you be okay if we waited? >> I don't want to. I know. Jeez. I mean, it seems like every meeting there's a big fire department issue. And >> I I I agree. I think we I think we can get to an answer here. >> Okay. >> Um >> I I have no problem with us continuing looking, but >> for an area. >> Okay. Um I was just trying to play the other one out again. So, if we cancelled our order on the engine tender, applied that down payment essentially to the to the ladder, we would still owe a million something on that, which is is the financing that you you've been talking about. um that's a much more manageable number to try to incorporate into into the budget without bonding. Um then there isn't the same urgency to find a used tender because you're talking about 2031. Is that the year that you said >> Cong yes that so the current schedule replacement for engine 21 is 2030. So the idea was to come forward uh here, you know, I was actually looking at beginning of next year just based on a cost savings, you know, signing the contract in advance. But um yeah, I mean the the reality is is that the and I apologize. I was just trying to think what I was going to say is that I need to go back to if we say you wanted to pursue the the ladder. I need to ask the sales member saleserson Pat if that 2.497 goes down a little bit because we've already given them 1.1 million. Mhm. >> So they gave us a discount on, you know, from 1.3 >> one that 845 down to 1.165 I believe was like 140 160,000 correct something like that. So I don't know that I bring that up as a point of discussion as well. No, I think that I think that's good to think about that because I know from the from the agreement there was a a cash price for the thing if you paid up front and they're not going to give us that deal. But is there something else that they could get because we're, you know, we're essentially loaning them the money until they until they deliver it? >> Yep. >> You got it. >> Yeah, we paid 1.3 was the contract number and 1.186 was the actual paid cash number. So it was it was a hundred and some thousand. It was a guaranteed percentage in you know it was a four and a half or something like that percent reduction in the price per year that we paid early. So >> and they did indicate uh during that process and this process that at any point throughout the contract if we wanted to put money down that it would be there would be some sort of discount I believe in my conversations with them. >> So So is it fair? Let's go to Jan the first meeting in January. Do a little bit of homework. See what we can I don't have a problem waiting. >> I don't I mean >> mayor, what are we going to know different in January? >> What are we going to know different? Hopefully he's got some used rig that he can find out there. >> Two months worth of looking >> over the holidays. That's why I would say probably more like February. >> Ask Mar. I'm not king at uh trying to find. >> We won't have a whole lot of time between the chief and I cuz >> Well, and not only that, but if if he's got say a year to hunt for something, >> you know, there might be a some sort of a find like we had with the tanker. >> I think there's always there's always used equipment here council. There's always used equipment around. It's just what's the quality of the used equipment. This is not any used. Do you need a vehicle today? You could probably find one down the road, but do you >> do you want that one? >> Do you want that one? I don't know. So that that would be the question. >> Well, and for me it was more to the used like which thing has more moving parts, right? Like if I'm thinking about what I want used versus what I want new. The thing that's more complicated, but I see your point of the thing that's you like that it gets more frequent use and that we're going to put the wear on tear on. I could see wanting that new, >> but I was also thinking the more complicated machinery with more moving parts and more things to go wrong. So >> there's many ways you can do look at it as Zach points out to me and it depends on what your priorities are. So >> I don't want to buy a new aerial. >> I don't want to buy >> a lot of communities don't do that and so I just >> we got two known new aerial newerial >> and then we got >> used and but get the engine tender. That's my >> new >> that does make more sense really. I mean it does. >> Okay. So that's a no. >> Okay. Okay. So now I need I now I need to >> for a million dollar >> I need a motion in a second then we can >> So does the motion have to encompass all of it? >> No, I just need to know cancellation. >> It's just a guidance to say look for use. >> Yep. >> Use aerial specifically >> unless you'd like specific on your motion. I mean, I just want to make sure that it's known that like the motion would be to cancel the contract for the aerial, continue with our purchase of the engine tender. >> Yes. >> And give direction to go out and look for >> um what a used aerial in good condition. >> So, the tender is already on the way done. >> Yeah. I'm just making sure it's known that we're not touching that. That that is like we're good. Just so there's no >> This is just to cancel that order. >> Okay. Well, my motion stands. whatever you needed out of the motion that I put forward. >> It sounded good to you. >> Cancellation. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, I appreciate >> and I need a second. >> Second. >> Is it second? >> Yep. No, >> I need a second. >> Oh, I'll second. >> All right. Any more discussion? >> All those in favor say I. I. >> I. All those opposed say no. >> No. 4 to one. >> Okay. On to the long-term plan. >> Hopefully, it's short. >> It looks good. >> It's one It's one part. >> I do have one question. >> How How can we table this till uh later? >> No. Council. So, yeah, here's Dan questions. One thing that we did do and I got direction again tonight. So, I'm not going to make a change to the long-term plan, but I did get direction about buying a used aerial that's now removed off the long-term plan. So it'll be added back on next year like I mentioned the last c two council meetings ago that things can go on and off. It feels really awkward and weird and so just want to make sure it's clear. So >> oh go ahead. >> No I said I do have a question in that same vein of if we don't find >> an let's just say take us a year whatever it may be. Is the plan to still then put money away towards it or >> that'll be the direction of the council. not a plan today, but it could. >> It's the long-term plan. I'm just asking. >> Well, >> isn't it already baked in? >> Currently, the long-term plan is 115,000. It's like 116 and some change, whatever the difference was between the reduction in the levy or whatever, cuz that's what the council gave direction at >> last council meeting to reduce the levy. But yeah, there is some dollars available in the long-term plan to be able to put that, >> okay, >> towards the towards any aerial just like the $100,000 last year was put towards it, that's still in there. It's not possible. >> That's true. Yes. >> And it would still go towards Ariel. It's just going to a used one instead of a new one. >> Just making sure that it's not also coming out with this >> non- earmarked. We call those non-earmarked dollars, which means they're not earmarked for some sort of spending dollars. >> To make a difference, you're going to have to bump that number up. >> Otherwise, you're going to be waiting 9 or 10 years. >> It's kind of bumped, right? I mean, it's baked in. >> Yeah. So, it was 100 grand last year and now this year it's >> a total of 115,000 which means we didn't add 115 grand to it cuz all of that addition came out when we reduced it with fiscal >> because of the fiscal. So, you guys >> can we nail that down next year cuz it's going to suck next year too. You got to hold me against it. I mean, I tried my best. Um, I seen Champlain pulled in a good chunk of money from We might as well wrote them out a check. They're a receiver of >> They are a giant receiver. >> It was a good chunk of their budget. >> So, I'm here to stand for >> the long-term plan. >> Somehow or another, we really got to work on this thing because 2028 is ugly as ever. >> I So, I was going to ask about that. I I almost think we need a work session to really look at these costs cuz >> Mhm. >> that's the wall I was talking about and it's a big ugly one. >> I think everyone's aware of that. >> Well, I don't think anybody's unaware of the >> the quoteunquote wall. It got it got pushed from 2028 to 2031 >> with the large facilities. >> Um doesn't mean everything got pushed because there's still public works expansion that's needed and we'll talk about why that's needed at the council and and whatnot. sold >> the the 200. >> So that's what we assume 200 homes. >> 200 homes. That's correct. >> We call that a conservative. >> That is an average. That doesn't mean every year we're going to hit that. That means >> Well, I guess my concern is is that if we assume 200 um I mean this year we didn't hit that. >> We're going to be more >> that means 200 homes andor businesses equivalent. So it doesn't always mean new homes. Yes. That can also mean businesses. So one business might come out as 50 homes development >> and then we might only have 150 new homes and that would equal total 200. >> Okay. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Revenue no matter what. Yep. So it's 200. We use 200 new homes. >> So you think as far as some of the business we've pulled in that that's still conservative. >> Yeah. So like opus for example. Opus was probably equivalent to believe 40 homes. So you know we might only have to have 160 new homes that year in order for us to equal one business. I'm good then. That was the only point I had on the whole thing. So, >> anybody else? >> So, >> I left my notes at home, but I don't remember having anything major other than the big giant wall and >> and so we'll plan on having a work at the council's direction. We'll have a work session then maybe early in like March of next year. Does that seem like a good time frame to have a conversation and work session with the council about long-term plan discussion of just let's have it on the table. Let's put a bunch of axis through it. Let's discuss it. Let's go through a thing so that we are all on same. >> We have water some sort of water thing mailed down. >> We won't know that. >> Isn't that right around March as well? >> May I thought that was March? >> We thought we thought May. That's what we wrote the lot in the last Well, that was the November 18th. >> It may be the day. >> It was a month. It may be they have better numbers, but I know they were going to make decisions towards May or something like that. >> That was last week. >> Okay. >> So, anybody else have any concerns about long-term plan? I don't I don't think so because we're we're going to have a work session around some of these further out years when >> so and most of my questions were in the 28 29 >> kind of the plan will be for a work session then I guess I'll try to Q1 of next year that's why it's still kind of fresh in our mind then we can have a conversation I'll lay the things out that you have already approved and then say here was where we're at and let's talk about them. Um, and you want a a vote, right, on this thing? I need a motion and a second. >> I'll make a motion to approve. >> Dave, >> I'll second. >> Stephanie, any more discussion? >> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> All those opposed say no. >> You're not approving the purchases. You're just accepting the plan. So, >> okay. Um, EDA HR levy. Oh, and the final >> final. Yep. >> Motion to approve. >> Yeah. Sweet. >> I'll second. >> Hold on. So, I kind of misspoke. That was the whole shooting match, not just the EDA. >> Okay. So, Scott and Dave. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. >> I. All those opposed say no. That one's down. Approved. to approve. >> Jeez. >> The PD hire. >> Yep. >> I'll second. >> Any discussion? >> All those in favor say I. >> I. All those opposed say no. >> Carries. Five to zero. You're on a roll there, dude. >> I got nothing about a name. >> Well, here. >> It's It's already It's already in there. >> Huh? The name is >> motion to approve. >> The motion's motion. All right, Dave. I need a second. >> I'll second it. Um, any discussion on that? All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> I don't love it, but I don't have it on either. >> I don't either. The problem is it's kind of what people have selected, >> right? It was the name of the year. >> Um, >> it's probably the best out of all the 80 that we got. >> There was some really >> A5 is what it says. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> But that's where I'm at. Like, do I love it? No. But it's >> Yeah. So, one thing just to note for the council, mayor and council, we are going to come forward with a naming policy next year to be able to do this because this is the first we've ever done a policy or a park name because they're normally historically named after the development that they that they reside in. >> This is the first we've ever had that's not in only one development. So, we went based on what we've done on every other process for naming. >> The policy is going to help cuz I mean it seemed like it went okay. >> It went okay. I think it's just more or less just everyone identifying the process so everyone knows what's happening >> and it'll be more expensive than just parks. It'll be facilities and stuff cuz then we will know longer term talk with our communities when they start having different things and start having naming rights and branding and whatever. Just want to make sure the council's aware that we're going to >> Okay. So that uh Okay, that was approved 5 to zero. Now we are on to close session. Uh motion to close the meeting pursuant to Minnesota statute 13D3 for labor negotiations. I need a second. >> Uh all those in favor say I. >> I. All those opposed. >> I'm going to push my car out. >> Zach, you can't leave until you get brand new. We're good. do not have to say anything. If there are no objections, we will be journ. Thank you.