e e e e e e e work session you are you ready Chris okay we'll start the work session for August [Applause] 12 Dave if you want to if you can hear us Dave please unmute yourself I'm I'll note for the record that notice is given that council member Fashions is participating in this work session via interactive technology which is allowed by Minnesota statute section 13 d02 the address for his location was was included in the notice and is open and accessible to the public can you speak one more time Dave just so we can hear you and make sure we have the right volume uh it doesn't look like anybody me in the LV watching YouTube Lang was but I don't think that's ever happened okay try one more time let our fion yes I'm I'm here and available to the public much better okay perfect all right good evening everyone sorry want to make sure everything goes can hear bu uh again we're here for the budget tonight thank you so much for being able to make a work session work um we've gone through and had three budget discussions essentially two work sessions and then one Council discussion at a council meeting and we are essentially at the point where we need to make a decision from Council level of what we'd like to see um staff is here to take notes and make it adjustments again just for reference so that we can know where we're at today and I'm going to to go back to click the button um again we're at an 18.22% tax levy request tax rate would go up slightly to 36.065190 Value which is the average value and it stay the same valuation from 24 to 25 so um we are looking at the whole entire Levy right now not just the general fund although that is probably going to be most of our Focus tonight it is related to the entire Levy related to payment management um Capital Equipment Park Capital Equipment and capital facilities CU those are the requests um additionally I did make note and think two or three weekly updates ago about the request from the Eda to have a uh a levy right know they currently do not have a levy in this budget but we need to have discussion on that and what the C like to do got some general feedback on that but um like to have a further conversation so hand it over to the mayor and rest of the council members so have questions just some clarification on something yep on the sheet that you sent out the uh um have to versus desired yes the um Under Fire you have one I think it's 143 that is correct shouldn't that be 205 no because the requ is to have a change in staff from the model of paid on call to being full-time the full two full-timer individuals are roughly $25,000 in total for their cost however because there's an offset with part-time there would not be as much paay on call the net difference is 143 so if you were to say okay we're going to remove the full-timers for your example of 205 we'd have to add back in 60 in order to make that see that's what I'm confused about we start today yep but a fresh start okay and we didn't do the two new new um new full-time why would we then have that in 60 if we're not why would we then have to add 60 because of the new scheduling going in or I mean we're currently paying you know call today mhm yep so what would change there number of hours being used and dollars paid to them not necessarily because you don't know how many people are coming on on a call Bas increased call yeah based on increased calls we have to estimate the number of people that are going to go on those calls so that would be an increased number the duty crew model also I think drops the average on call person's number of hours from like 25 to 19 or something like think but that's out of the picture right because we're not doing that today correct correct but he's giving you the net difference yeah so what your what's your your request is if we didn't have those fulltime what would be our cost next year to read to do the same mod we're doing today same thing we're doing today yep same thing we're do today the cost would roughly be about 60 Grand based on the time we have for public engagement um hours of calls number of people showing up the calls and such it would be a $60,000 increase next year to PID on call staff but that's not necessarily going going to take the back it would not be it would be it would be take the back I don't know what our numbers were I can't remember what we brand Chief I thought the 63 where was yeah that's if we did the the new model yes right and and we're not today correct and that's what I'm saying so there would not be a $60,000 difference that is correct it would be 203,000 probably 20 we have to run the number we have to run the numbers but there is there's op the only way we're getting the two full-time staff is because of the operational Savings of we don't have people that are going to come and do maintenance nights because that'll be done during Duty C right reduce the hours of public education that we typically put outside of that now um and then we also have some cost savings that could be accounted for for training um as it relates to those individuals and then we also have a bigger cost savings that would be paid for by the dollars associated with the relief Association going away to offset pensions for your current full-time Fire Chief and current full-time assistant chief correct that we are paying for currently today that we are paying for currently that is correct so some of the sideline stuff would save money butre as far as on call guys you can't really predict that you can't predict that we do our best if Tak the number of calls that we have and how many people should go on a call based General number but 5.09 people responding per call Y and then our best guest for how many new calls are going to be next year I think this year we're at four 12 something like that from last year we're up 12 I didn't bring my computer down but last time I checked we're sitting 12% 12% increase 12% so that 63 didn't include the new model no um the so the 63 reduction was based on the fact that we don't have to many pay on call part-time staff so if you said okay status quo is going to be next year whatever you have this year you'll have to add something to that um would it be a 143 no I don't know what that number would be up was my question yeah I don't know off the top of my head what that would be but there would be some increase just based on the number of calls that we have from where we are today that's just say it's 30 or something okay I don't I don't have that number in front of me just going to say it number but your your question does make sense and hopefully I've addressed it I can go next if you're done Mr May yeah go ahead yeah so I I uh the past few months been working with Zach so I I went through in the budget looked at it and then I had Zack double checked with me through his calculator make sure everything was good and I put together some slides just cuz I think it's easier to comprehend what's being talked about when you can visualize it from a visual person Zach got some slides so I put together an option here with a tax R 35.3 5% which is a little bit lower than the current one this reduces taxes by $15 per average home um this proposes that from the city's 18% Levy increase they cut 305,000 from it and here are the things I would recommend cutting we talked about Capital Equipment I think two last meeting credit card fees we've all kind of talked about the bsna I think could wait um the associate planner position I also think wait and it still leaves 86,000 for staff to kind of tighten up which I think that they have the ability to do based on conversations Zach and I have had um this includes hiring 1.5 police officers which is the one we were short last year plus the half of one we kind of have anyways um and then hiring the two full-time Department fire department employees and paying a better wage and allowing them to have better access to retirement options um this also adds saving $100,000 for future purchases this includes the budgeted 2028 cost $10,000 for three more City events maybe a concert series I have no preference what they are but I know some people do um 5,000 to double the committee and Eda pay so we pay them $25 a meeting sounds like that hasn't been touched in forever and we've had Planning Commission meetings that go till midnight I mean the one meeting you and I were at and I think it was like midnight you you left and they were still going so it's one of those things where like you know they go late and I just have a hard time knowing that they're spending those nights away from their families and they can't even take their family out to nice dinner as a thank you for that and so I don't think it's too much to ask doesn't cost us a whole bunch um and then $222,000 in City resources to be waved or donated so we had talked about last year but we didn't actually Implement a line item that we have for the these events and services that we're waving all the time um and I think we should get that on the budget so we're accounting for it um I will add one more piece that I found out from Zach this week for the hiring two full-time Department fire department people which is oo right Zach is the city yeah that's Coro is about to launch their own fire department when you look at um fire station one in the historic village almost all but I think you said three two or three two of the fire down there are are only two of them are in the city of Dayton a lot of them are residents or Rogers residents a lot of them are coming from oigo and we don't know I would say it's a a yellow flag we don't know what's going to happen when they open theirs if they're going to want to go volunteer their time and to protect their own City versus coming over here so I think we have an um a slight risk that we're going to lose some capacity out of that Firehouse in the near future and that should be on our radar when we're making decisions about staff for City coverage and I'm going to take it one we'll come back to the slide but I'll take it one step further is z the next slide so um I also about what the future years look like so we look at you know 2026 there's no guarantee you know I'll be here but I think it's good to think about you know how this all kind of rolls out you know I think we're consistently going to have one to one and a half police officers per year we're going to continue to have half to one person in public works we keep adding our Parks that's more stuff to cover and work on um I think based upon the the budget out look Zach and I look looked at it's possible to save 7 to $800,000 a year budgeted for the 2028 cost over those years um I know the LC Stevens Event Center only the Event Center piece is scheduled for 28 I just I look at we have our Event Center already we have a second one coming on the pipeline possibly and a third one that I've been told is going to come in a couple years I don't know what we have planned for an event center I don't know if we need an event center in Event Center or what that looks like but I would say that probably move to 2030 well beyond and I think we have the ability to hold the tax at 3535 for the upcoming years as well um and Hold Steady and continue to use the changes that we have with Tiff and other income coming in to help manage the budget going forward so again it's not I know we don't normally always put things on slides but often time we start rambling stuff off it gets hard to follow you can go back and slides that what is that saving 7800 a year what is that that's taking $7 to 800,000 a year from the budget for 26 27 and 28 set aside for I was thinking the fire Tru but 28 I mean if we're going to say I'm with you I believe that if we're going to say we should buy it then if I was going to buy a new car I would either know I'm going to take out a small loan for it and save as much as I could or save for all of it if I possibly could and I think that's the responsible thing to do and not to saddle that debt with whoever comes after me and so yeah I I get that but that that is minuscule compared to the rest the 2028 is going to we're going to have to have a come to Jesus moment on that I don't I don't disagree I just you know we don't always I'm happy to just have a being talking about 2028 and I looked at some of the things out there like the Event Center where that doesn't seem like it's needed in 28 maybe I'm the only one that think that but I'm trying to look at it more than anything else and just I think it's important we always talk about this year but then every year it feels like we're starting fresh and so having some sort of road map of what this could look like in the future just seems like you know the right way to lead so I I'm looking at this and and trying to figure out what it could possibly look at I don't even think I included that and I got up to this 30 million we have in in want in 2028 yep and again I didn't go through everything I just that was the one thing I saw right away and I was like there's no way no how and I have a hard time knowing if we're if we have three of them coming in the city if we're ever going to need depending on what an event Cent is it being an event center as I imagine it I have a hard time believing the city is going to need one in the next decade but that's my opinion but I don't know what we don't have a vision for what that event center is so I'm imagining something that would be in competition with Deans or Fisher Farm or um The Vineyard so yeah um which if we have three of them I think we got plenty in the city so if you want to go back beside Zack so this is this is where I was at I think that this you know based on last year's discussion I approach this a little differently three of you made it very clear that you weren't open to any kind of tax rate increase and so I want to have a tax plan this year that I feel comfortable voting yes for so I put this together and put a lot of time and energy into it based upon the feedback of the last meeting um and then looking through the budget myself one's going next Scott you want to looks wonderful I'll let somebody else thank you go Dave are you uh you have some opinions here I do um so I think the most of the things that Matt has suggested there look look pretty good to me um where well I think I on kind of the same page here but I'll just run through it kind of quickly 100K um I think we we can find a way to reduce that cost from the loader either buying used or configuring it differently I I don't have a strong preference but I think the 400 is too much I think we can do something pretty well for 300 um I agree with uh uh eliminating the planner position for this year as an ad uh the credit card fees I think that we um my preference would be that we just adjust our fee schedule to incorporate that but if we want to do it as a premium you know 5% or whatever it is uh when somebody pays their utility bill I guess that can be done that way too but I just assum incorporate in and I my guess is most people are paying with a credit card anyway um then past that um where what I would really like us to do is is to find a way to carry forward about 400k toward the the uh ladder truck we've made that commitment I think we've got a path to the other truck that we also ordered this year um to get that one covered and I think that since we know that bill is com coming we should be doing something with it now I don't know that we can um save enough if you will toward it to have it paid for when it comes but I think we need to start doing something and I'd like to see a number somewhere around 400k to do that um where I'm going to differ with Matt is I I think that the two uh full-time fire department ads I think that that is U premature in my mind we've got a a station and a bunch of new equipment coming in that 28 29 kind of time frame and I think the Staffing plan should be uh built to uh spool up to that and I think doing it four or five years in advance is is too soon so I would I would prefer to wait on the two fire fighters at least a year um I think that is oh and then there's some a miscellaneous expense for some bathrooms and things that would go along with the the two firefighters and so I would postpone those two until they we actually move ahead with that hiring that's pretty pretty much what I've got here I'm going to ask you a question uh C or fashion is there a number that you have in mind is the tax rate okay that's being proposed here is it something less than that is it the same I'm I'm good where we're at I would say you know incrementally uh up or down is not going to be a bunch of heart heartburn for me but uh right in the in the same range that we're in is I think where we ought to stay but what I don't want to do is you know is have kind of that false sense that okay we can hold it at this rate until 28 29 and then we're falling off a cliff I don't think that would be responsible on our part so my hope is that we uh take advantage of the current tax rate uh I know we've got that uh growth of uh 14.2% that relates to new construction and 16.2 uh overall I [Music] wouldn't I would be okay with either of those numbers but I would like the call it the Surplus to be the carry forward to uh for the fire truck okay and I also want to I also want to make sure we're fully funding the uh pavement management uh [Music] budget wonderful thank you yep I got my coming thank you um so I can go here um as far as the desired um I took the 15K off of the the finance I I think we can compensate for that um I took the the bsna software out Activity Center I moved from from the 46 to 20 um I Al I I had a question about that too if was that 46 if that moved um heard of fulltime where was the extra money at for the event she'd be doing I didn't see any adders for that um she said she'd only need a roughly about $55,000 to do more things because she' be able to have more time into things and not have to pay so many you know other people to do stuff so that was they those are her numbers that she gave me and there was $5,000 more for operating supplies essentially for more supplies for the events but she'd be able to do different types of events as in not maybe such a big event but more more little ones or more you know po things or whatever that she could be able to be at more often all right so I did put 20 in there um police I knocked off the half I I these midyear ads kind of bother me because it immediately causes a um a must have the next year or a have to in the next year just for clarity isn't the one and a half s this year to hire one for next year and then to round off the half from this year no it would be for one a half one and a half so the reason for that why it's been explained to me and I'm going to try to do my best to explain it Chief will have to jump in if he thinks I'm going way out of line but the reason for that is that we're able to hire somebody mid year because typically we're having to hire somebody that's brand new out of school and those those that time is the only time we can really hire that those that person and then we're able to try to hopefully hire from you know well have to steal from another department in order to get somebody with um experience and that typically happens around the beginning of the year except people are looking for movements but well I mean I if it if it works then then two at half year is fine but I I I at this point I don't want to add one and a half um is it just because of the dollars that's what to make sure okay well you again the half year I just think it kind of forces our hand the next year um Hing to it mid year would have the same effect though yeah it will I mean it's it's going to you're still pushing the budget next year you're forcing it either way yeah the two year doesn't solve your problem well no it removes half for the for for half the year it removes one for half the year so but you're right that problem it still forces your hand the next year um and then yeah I removed I I removed the full-time Fire Department but I I was not I guess I'm I'm not convinced that that we're there yet I I think we will be there at some point um and then uh the kepal equipment I also would like to see some effort put into bringing that stuff down one way or another um I I just think that we need to somehow tackle that issue because these big lumps are are nasty um so I put that at 60% of what was of the six I think I figured 670 6:30 I think is what's in there 6:30 in desired I think 670 was the only way I could make that 18 more that 18 related you're related to Capital Equipment right now yeah so right now the current Levy dollars for that fund is 750,000 and we're looking at 1,50,000 next year with 50,000 of that being allocated directly to the engine pumper tender that we purchased earlier this year that was how we were going to pay for it is a c is a basically a one-ear increase and then have that year year increase for a couple of years and then drop off so were these at were these the um one pager things cuz I'm looking at this that's the only way I could make that add up the one page of things uh was 6:30 6:30 yeah so okay I look at sorry I'm looking at it from a tax levy perspective not necessarily purchases but I'm making sure that the tax levy works for year-over-year essentially what I'm saying is if we keep it the same now we're at 750 and we're not having an increase um if we change it to a milon 50,000 to fund all this stuff from next year use up a little bit of the fund balance from the previous years we've saved on doar on little bits and pieces here um we can make all the purchases work next year if they come in right out of budget which most of them have come in on close then we're able to use again those past dollars and then still have enough money to be able to move forward with it if you cut too much out of that fund which you can do it then ends up handcuffing you for the future to be able to say you can't use any of those little bits of pieces that we've saved over the over the time with whether it's a sale of a vehicle because when we bought a new one we sold it back in that money goes back into this fund or we're not over under budget cuz we didn't get this piece of equipment on it that we expected to have or whatever or reused it or whatever it was that's right I look at it sort of from the tax leverage perspective not So Much from the individual purchases but I get that I think you're specifically when you talk about those doers you're looking specifically at Public Works correct uh it look like most of Public Works SL Parks y sorry Mar yeah I just wanted I do want to hit that 14% number I don't know was a 14.2 or what whatever it was um at least very close to that b Park okay and you said what number for Capital Equipment on Public Works is what remember what that purchases were no um right now I think you said it was like 600 30,000 or something like that right now the the load is four 400 you wanted to see it down to 400,000 y can I inquire to what the tax rate is at your 14.2% um don't no I'm going to say it's keep going I can I can I I I don't it's going to be 34 something it's just shy under it's not going to it's not going to much I just it's it's a number to me that's the new construction and that's the number I'd like to stick by but what about the fact that like just running the city because inflation is going to cost 2 3% more in general so like existing homeowners should expect money to come from them to help cover even if there was Zero growth next year we would still need some kind of increase in order to help cover the general inflationary costes that comes that they I mean I know they experiencing their own homes the city experience is just as much if not on duplicative because everyone charges the government more for things but that should be included in the budget already we've been double that should already be in their numbers everybody should be factoring increased cost into their numbers right now correct but my point is if if you're only budgeting for the new construction to pay for anything you're not budgeting then for any of the things that come with the new homes that need then servicing more roads more police whatever the case may be you're you're assuming that basically the new homes are subsidizing the existing homes versus the existing homes you're also assuming that we're at the right rate um I mean again we've been double digit increases for at least the last seven years not in the tax rate in the levy percentage in the spending yeah but we've had three 400 to 500 new homes a year for a while too I get that yep and they should be much cheaper to to manage so okay that's my deal okay I want to see new stuff we can consume new stuff but I'd like to see Legacy left alone for a while and I I agree there is inflation um but to me in my mind it kind of counters what we have seen past X number of years last year we went up we went we were supposed to be 18 but it looked like we were closer to 20 no it was the 18% or whatever it was that was passed the difference is that we lost the Eda Levy so that's what everyone didn't see is that you don't see the reduction in the Eda Levy and you see I wasn't talking about Levy I was looking at spending and we spent that 88 mean yeah so you said in the levy it was 18% but it probably ended up again probably being 20 cuz you got to take that dollars off of one side and put it to the other so and and last year um we only went up 200 houses 2001 mhm so um so that number that you that money some of that money is also coming from the year before too it is but and the year before we had I but it always gets munched around and and 14.2% gives us a tax rate of 34.7197175 which means people's taxes would get down $50 on the average that's if their home stays the same but correct which we already know it's going to go up probably 1% it the the average was 1% this year the coming that doesn't mean everyone went up 1% some people went down yeah and then some people went up more than that so again we have to use the average and I can only Bas calculations based off the same tax rate the same valuation right which this every house is different so no matter what you pick you pick a house you're going to be drop yeah so some of these numbers I mean you know whether or not we do the the the credit card fees I think some of that stuff is I'm totally wide open on adjusting that stuff but like I said I'd like to get that 14 number and um as far as hiring I would like to see one police officer uh actually you had some the the planning stuff that you add in here I I think I'm I'm kind of open to adjustments there too but um oh what do you mean up or down or whatever it takes to make it work um the a lot of these smaller numbers Activity Center I I haded 20 but it if we decide that 30 makes more sense or 10 makes more sense I'm I'm cool with adjusting that kind of stuff um I don't want to add I don't want to right now go to fulltime with that as you mean more than part time that it is we're currently no you want to keep that up cuz part time still me 32 hours a week it 32 to me is fulltime there's benefits there is benefits well they're pro rated but they are benefit our company calls 32 fulltime okay whatever whatever you want however you want to word that but um I do I I think that what has been going on there is is is is good and so um I think we should throw more money at it but anything else no okay I want to be gringe say what go ahead no no you can I want to be grin I think 14 would then add some money too for the for whatever debt we occur in 2028 whether it's a ladder truck or whatever I think yeah I think based on those cuts that you have there we'd have there' be money left over to do something with yeah I um cuz you're a Cuts Al owner every 1% 4 and you're probably at almost 525,000 over the cuts at least and the difference between what we looked at and what our 18% was and what the 14% is is only 320,000 well yeah my numbers came to just under 12 but I I recognize that that we which is probably pretty close consensus is we want to dump more money towards that 2028 did so I okay gr want ahead no I mean I don't have a whole lot more to add I just I like I'm mat laid out I just try to look at you know our operations and how things function and how alleviated positions actually might hurt us in a shorter run than it will in a longer run um I was just talking with our police officers I I that number should be at two I mean to be all honest I mean there's no reason why we should have two officers only at night there should be a redundancy in three and four I mean it's crazy to hear the stories that they hear about you know what chaplain doesn't have what Rogers doesn't have what what you know our surrounding communities don't have and then they look at like what are we going to do for work I'm going to sit in the office until the call comes out cuz I'm not going to risk getting hurt myself like that's not what we got to have happen that's not how a police department should be running at night representing and serving its residents same thing with the two fulltime fire department uh hires um how that thing operates is and I'm sorry I don't have anything on you you guys you got what you what you got but like running these things like to to say we don't need a two full-time Department I'd I'd like to ask the group like on what grounds do you guys have any information on that other than just the fact that you want to save dollars it's hard to sit here and look at this and go you know what the request is that they want that group of people to just do more when those people are telling you they're freaking tapped out and this is the one thing that they all agreed to the one thing that they worked with the chief to put together to say like that actually makes sense for the whole department to work in the functioning aspect and it's like it's it's mindboggling that that information or that that streamline doesn't make it connection anywhere so I like what Matt proposed it looks looks great looks like it's going to uh you know buffer that 28 um huge influx that we're looking to to navigate around but like I I just can't sit and eat away at a little piddly dollars here and there knowing that we're we're we're behind the eightball tfold on how the city operates and what it looks like for its future so my personal budget doesn't get as depth as this does just cuz I'm pretty much a sole individual income I mean I know what my dollars make me where they go um I just it's it's tough to say like you guys want to squeeze even more out out of that me and that group of people like it's that's tough it's a tough pill to follow guys it's about it I like the 35.3 five it keeps us steady it keeps keeps departments functioning in a way that they should be um and it makes you know me feel comfortable and if I feel comfortable I feel like my residents feel comfortable and at that point so that's my two sense go ahead and Grinch it up okay well I'm going to follow Debbie Downer uh let's see as far as the uh the the one pager deals um and I didn't look at the the one the million 50 that you're talking about I didn't really look at that that's farther out a little bit um lower lower mower truck and chipper yeah you got 630 on that number I think B the chiper oh you're talking about the stump grinder stump grinder okay yeah I think you're talking about the chiper oh you already got one yeah yeah okay you your brand the stump gr no unfortunately it's not unless we can tip it on its side and push it down might work that way that's stump grinder there's a lot of a lot of if you look around there's a lot of a trees out there probably 50 or 60 of them itself uh I think that that number right there can be 460 and we can get all four them pieces of equipment without too much trouble the big one is the low loader mhm and we talked about that I mean I I think that can be bought for 250 and get a pretty nice unit out of it I showed them a couple of them at 1501 170 hours you can get them for 200 a quarter of a million so the problem with those Scott is that you need to have them equipped with a snow plow snow tires and the Hydraulics and that can add up to $120,000 I don't have any idea how they're equipped that's the problem I've looked at a number of them a lot of them and that's always the problem with them and they're designed to move dirt and not be used as snow PS so that you know you might get for 250 but then you end up add 120 right I hear what you're saying and I also heard that you were thinking about a smaller unit to saves a little bit money that's yeah you get this much money you figure it out however what I don't want to see is here we're going to take and we're going to push one of them out mhm and not get it period just to make it work when you get that lump of money I want all I would prefer all all four of those pieces of equipment are bought so that they're gone they're dealt with and and we got them uh the activity I also I put 10 in there I mean um I think with 10,000 uh Danelle can get um three or four more I would like personally like to see music series like most all these other cities around us do and I mean we got other fish to fry before that I think but I mean I I think it's there uh your part-time gal for 16,000 mhm I scratched it completely only because I think the loader you're going to sell maybe you get 15 16 I don't know I don't know what it's worth but 16 is not that much to find so I'm not overly concerned about it so if we can find a 16 we can keep that half time yeah yeah cuz I think that an important hire because Kelsey is doing so many other things with the communication side that she's you know she's working at home in the evenings to try and get rest of her work done so yeah to me if you sell the the old loader and you get whatever you get for it you get that's what you get that's not that much money to try and find really not in a $9 million budget it's not it's for damire mhm um police I personally would rather see police than fire because I think we lack in a couple areas there's a lot of complaints I get a lot of emails from the industrial area that kids are doing burnouts they're speeding down the West French Lake Road uh and I I know we don't have our traffic cop that we were going to hire a year ago we don't have him yet that guy can pay for his W damn near wage just by sitting on zanar I'm sure well my opinion my opinion we could double our force and we'll still have that yeah you're always going to have it that's the only way you're going to get more that's the only way you're going to curb it a little bit is you rack up a couple of speeding tickets you're going to learn people out there right yeah uh I don't care whether it's two mid or one at the beginning of the year but uh I see two two at the mid year or one at the full-time deal um so just one not one and a half right right I'm trying to hit a certain number is what I'm after I mean 14.2 just trying to make sure I understand what you're trying to say so right not necessarily a number but I think we can I think we can get by I mean we shouldn't have we've been getting by for half a decade onir we shouldn't have one officer we almost kind of and I and I think if you got 12 full-time cops that's going to get you there be close we we're still short too yeah to get us to constant 24 hours interject something here just over the past four budget Cycles we've we have gone up population by 56% our employee um has gone up 75% so we're not just getting by no no sure in 5 years we've doubled our employee full-time employee in this building yep and in 5 years we have not doubled the population 2018 we had 1500 homes in 2022 we had over 3,000 in four years I don't care about homes I'm talking people yeah but if you a we average three people for homes so I mean the actual numbers were a little under 10,000 that's the actual numbers okay not average uh as far as the fire I took a day and called 12 cities with anywhere from 9 to 11,000 people in it and three of them didn't call me back maybe Gary got after him and told him don't talk to that guy how would he know call I just added that in there come on you got to have a little bit of fun here like I said it's nothing personal it's business uh St Anthony is out of the 12 two head over two two head over one I should say St Anthony's got seven for some reason and I have no idea why SC can you just I'm curious two over just two fulltime sure two two cities out of the 12 had two uh St Anthony and Wasa Champlain and Anoka both which are two and a half times our size Had Each two they have four four together yeah but they're one Department I understand that to so but I'm I'm saying two for Champlain two for NOA yep so four total yes four had one and three had zero Rogers has three Rogers has four they have four now but again their toys are better than to they're toce her size whatever oo is going to have I mean they're 25,000 they're 25,000 people so they're just about like Champlain oh hi I have 300K going towards the fire truck and I personally I wish there was 600k going to that thing so that in four years the money was spent I mean there's no way I would for me I have the money or I don't buy it that's just the way it is um I don't remember what the two items are line 27 and 25 and the uh desired i cho both of those down one of them is planning I believe yeah they're both a planner so planner position so to me there's you've got John and one fulltime there that's should be good uh the BSA I scratched that 100% and uh with this model I come up with 142 and that'll leave roughly uh one and a half 2% to lower the to lower the rate how much is going towards the future the L future ladder how much is 300 I got 300 there and I wish I could have more and and I would squeeze and and spend that 2% if it went that direction but I do not want the same thing to happen this year that happened last year I mean I pushed to give that extra 100 Grand from Eda and it got spent exactly where it said I didn't want it to go that was me personally I mean we we vote as a group but that's the way it is uh as far as Eda zero I they're not they're not using the money so I don't see a reason to tax for it I there too same good item no until yeah I think we need some more and and I mean if all of a sudden some big purchase comes by we can make it work it's not a big deal yeah so I'm at 14 and a half okay nothing nothing terrible it wasn't it I was expecting worse this gives everybody something even the resident they get a little bit of a break and in my opinion a guy should be working with you have 1.25 extra money in the uh capacity that's all you get because if is anybody in here your wage is all you get you can't go I need more unless you go to work get another job you want more get another job um yeah okay I appreciate the information and such and and from everybody it's good it gives us a good at least a good direction you are and we talked a little bit about this you're going to have a hard time with these little pieces yes I am which I've talked about before so I'm going to I'll make some caveat statements that are going to be good for some and good for others and then you know it is what it is but giving off this information which I don't mind doing and it's the you know the small stuff that was asked about what's the followup how's the detail how do you get to the number that you ask for the increase it's really really good to give the information on and I have no problem doing it however but the problem is is one's different then the other one's different and the other one's different the other one different and then I don't know what to cut because I don't know no one agrees on every single number and so it's you got to I just pick a number and and then I get we get comments so this is what happened last year is we try to figure out what's best for the staff and we work together as staff of what's going to work and one C says cut this one cember says cut that and then we look at staff and we say Okay department heads we're going to pick something out we sat down for I don't even know an hour last year and picked it out and then we get comments like you just mentioned Scott and it and and it is offensive that you know you get mad at us like you pick the wrong thing I didn't want and it's not like we looked at you and said you know what we're picking that because Scott said he didn't like it it's exactly the conversation which is not the case but it is a little offensive that it's like staff doesn't care about anything we just want to spend money which is absolutely not true if we wanted to spend money we'd come back to you every year with a 35% tax levy increase I say no is no I know you didn't say no but it's just no I can't say no you can't yeah you can say come back with 35% it'll do stuff to matth to them you know C troll does like and I just picked you two because you typically are on opposite ends of things and it seems to be it it just is it is so um I want to make sure that everyone in this Rome knows and the council knows that staff isn't picking on one person or the other person we're just trying to make the best decision we can with the dollars we have and so um one thing that I wanted to mention and talk about is the payment management dollars that everyone's been making sure that we want to get that money good to go and ready to go next year for how much we had planned out for the payment management study so if we look at the current tax levy for next year increase of $300,000 um we do have the MSA dollars that going to come online as well and that's about $400,000 as well so it'll be roughly a $700,000 increase in the payment management fund um if we add that to what we currently have today we're at$ 1.8 or $ 1.9 million and that's higher than what we needed for the payment management study to make up to our number that we had I think it was to 75% or whatever for our street number by almost 300 Grand and so I don't know if that's something the council wants to look at and talk about of how we want to handle the pay management dollars if we want to worry about them later on down the road if we want to save those um MSA dollars for a bigger project I will note that next year's project is an MSA Road um you can also do it on a Territorial Road so the two roads that we have next year planned out for projects potentially are Territorial Road and South Diamond leag Road both of which are MSA dollar state funded roads and both can be utilized with that $400,000 increase I don't know if that's something that we look at and take some of that money and look back and add some of these operations dollars back onetime things or whatever to be able to redo those stuff or if we want to look at and say no we're not doing that so it's just something that I noted today so that's a that's that's the different 300 than what we were talking about the par yep yep correct that's the that's the excess we had yeah the $200,000 we talking that's like $2 and some change 22 yep um is related to this year's current tax levy dollars that we had that we didn't spend because we had project after project and every one of those came in on their budget and we might as well make hay while the sunshin they always say and so why not look and see how much it's going to cost I know that Stant is looking at bids right now um their estimate is less than the 212,000 to do the project um for the parking lot at the current moment but we'll see what actually bids come back in at um it is less than the 175 as well for our bid process so we're just getting direct quotes and hopefully they come back in good and people want to get a last minute project game but that could be also added next year too as well just because we haven't had these funds can I ask a question because we had to deal with them so are those funds um the rest of the pavement management funds are fungible so if those funds come in and all of a sudden we could it's not like it's it has to be spent on pavement it does not no okay just yeah say has spend I know I know bit's been low but other times it's been high and so next year it can completely s flip and I'd rather have a little bit more on that account knowing that it it might be a little high and if it's not then we can either reallocate some of those funds for something else that we see fit next we actually don't get the dollars here we physically don't receive the MSA dollars they St I'm talking about the other dollars the yeah cuz we're going to do South Diamond Lake anyways right so we might as well use those roow that money towards it we right is it a us thing or carry over it does carry over it does but if you're doing a road that qualifies you might as well use it up might as well at least in my eyes the one thing with the sayate is the more you use the Fel will give it to you which is seems really dumb and stupid but that's the that's how it works we should definitely use that money first exactly the more you use for all budgets yeah however some cities look at and say we want to save that money we want to use it for a big project well the problem is once you get to so many years they start cutting back your funding so you don't get as much because they think you're just saving it and they don't save your own money correct and get the same result without them being corre so I'd rather keep it I don't else I'd rather keep it where it's at knowing that it could all of a sudden be high again next year if it's not we have the extra money we could lower payment man for the following year and kind of and if we need to move it even you know if we see something coming even you know this December we can still move it as long as we've we've already accounted for it in September correct yeah so the main thing I want to make sure that we're good with the number that's we can always go down again and we have gone down in the past so no one can tell me that they sit here and go never went down cuz it has um but we always go down we can't go up so yeah basically what I need to get from everybody today is I don't need to know exactly where these dollars need to spend at as you know a percentage that we're okay with that we're okay with putting on the tax statements are going to go out in October or November um and it's s like every one of us from the council's perspective that I could tell is is going to have the current tax rate stay the same at the highest so that means it's going to be some sort of cut from where we're at today which is a minimum maximum 16.2 or something along those lines I'm okay with anywhere between 355 in the current tax correct yeah that's what I'm hearing from everybody somewhere between 14 and 16% that's what that's what I'm hearing so which is good again I don't need to have specific dollars laid out quite yet but I just need to know a percentage so we can pass that on September whatever date that is September 10th or now that 14 and a half or 15% how much of the CIP is not factored into that though what do you mean like the uh the million dollars in equipment that you were talking about not the one pagers but there's there's another 400 Grand there that you're talking about yep so that this number here so what I need to do is I need to submit this to the state um and all it goes to is one number on the tax statement it just gives the city a date and then the the amount that you pay it doesn't break it down in this budget sense but this is what I need to give them is okay what is the increase going to be next year and where is it going to be allocated to again we could change those allocations all day long if you want to later on um but once it'sit December and we approve it that's where they're stand for the rest of the following year so I think what you're saying is okay would we take some out of Capital Equipment probably and then you'd remove some out of Capital Equipment and then some operations and that's my that's why my question for payment management is is do we want to move those dollars at all back into Capital Equipment or into operations to offset and it sounds like for me from Council it doesn't sound like that the case which is fine just laying out all the options so how much over are we going to be the number we needed to be at according to the study about $300,000 again per that year and then every year after that it'll be 400,000 or larger because it's based on trips and it's based on number of miles and Jason what's the other thing that MSA is based off of trips uh population and population and those are all three of those are all increasing y so it's not going to go down at all it's only going to go up and it's guaranteed funding from the state no no I was talking about to hit the 79 the oh the 79% yeah 1.55 or 1.6 how much over we budgeting for next year now with the MSA dollar not with MSA we with MSA we're at 1 n and we need to be at what one one I use one six it's the number so so we're about 300,000 corre where we need to be correct and we're I think that was leveled out fairly quickly right so we're going to be over for correct oh oh yeah that doesn't increase on a regular basis that's like a set dollar month that we'll get us there the MSA yes the MSA dollars will stay steady but they will increase over time over time they increase they will increase yeah so you're talking about the study yeah I'm talking about the study the dollar amount needed doesn't increase every year it stays consistent stays pretty consist I realize you and I are we're saying the same thing but I think we're saying it differently so you I think we're we're going to be in good shape I still think yeah I I agree with M it seems like we should keep that money there and and again weekend I always relocate the nmsa money M yeah the payment managements weekend just m correct yeah so the idea when we put the paper management together this year was to make up and get back to the balance we needed to for the study to catch up to the study but and then I didn't include the MSA dollars until I thought about them just recently and said oh we going to get those next year we need to make sure we come for them yeah and we'll use those monies up first if we can because of the first year cuz P would it be helpful for you if in in the short term we send you information on what we will and will not give on or adjust or yeah that I mean that helps like I said the idea is that we I don't think any all any of the five there going be a few things you guys agreeing but there's no way you're ran everything it's just not going to happen it's going to be for you yeah can I ask a question everyone since we have a couple minutes so I know there's a split on hiring the two full-time officers and I'm not going to try to change your mind my question is part of that is also raising their pay from $17 an hour to $30 an hour thoughts on that piece of it that's I think I built that in well that 60 so weing back to the 63 was it I don't know what the number is so you can say whatever number you want to it I don't know what well I mean that's the tradeoff including the pension too so I can we can we move them to the other Pension Plan without hiring the two full-tim so all we can do of that chunk of three things I have up there is the pay correct that was my sorry I'll go back to your sorry there you go there's the hiring the two and paying them more and the better pension the quicker vesting 5 years versus 10 and then I think it's better actually I think it's now I think that changed I think it's three okay so three years versus 10 years to best right in the pension so if we don't hire the two full-timers the only one of those three we can do is the middle one the paying them more we can still do regardless and to make sure I want to make sure everyone's clear the pension currently with the fire department is a if 100% is 20 years not 10 years takes 20 years current model is takes 20 years for you to get 100% correct but it takes 10 years to become eligible no five years eligible 40% at five fully it and that's fully at you're fully at 20 and then how don't 60% or 50 some per at 10 years it's something cuz it's X percentage per year versus the other option three years versus Pera it's three years and then you're 100% vested and then it's after that it's it's considered a pension so you got the two different pensions for the fire department are currently it's you get lump sum here's your money there you go do whatever you want it I don't care which ends up not being a whole heck of a lot I mean it's right now it's 66 Grand 64,000 after 20 years after 20 years you get a one time check 64 Grand do whatever you want with it go buy a car if you can afford it and then or or the pension which is forever is X number of dollars per month forever if you Liv to 125 congratulations you C it for however many years it's just a two different model but can't move there with full correct but my so because I know that sun three people aren't okay with the two but I want to I would be interested to know what everyone else feels about raising the wage of the fire department right now I mean you make more money burgers at McDonald's you can't run into burning houses about the same about the same but I mean there's it's two different occupations for sure don't disagree on B yeah do you have a problem with that Scott no okay you were quiet I didn't a guess or no AUD I want to make sure I no I've said I've said that before I mean you can get that 17 bucks you can get being a cashier at Holiday Gas Holiday gas station well and it wasn't more than a couple years ago that it was what was it it was down to like 13 I started at 12 it's like 12 it's gone up a little I'm not saying it has but this is a this is a drastic shift so I want to make sure that we're all on the same page or not on the same page whatever is yeah no I I see this as a is a good move with the penchion and everything Paul was but we can't do the Pion Del the two full times no I'm talking about shifting I mean if we well I get that because you're saying you eventually want to get there but not this next year I think the challenge is um it's really the the time that people have to commit um the money is great but I think they want to be a part the biggest thing that I hear in my office is well I'm not concerned about the money all that that much I mean I am but I'm not it's kind of talking out both sides of the MTH which I understand um because if they we talk about adjusting things then all of a sudden it's about the money so it kind of goes it's not the primary factor it's a factor yeah it's a factor and the biggest thing y it's factored yep it's just a significant benefit y yep but I think the biggest thing is from my perspective and in the organization's perspective is trying to make the current model last for as long as we can it's not Gary's agenda to turn the department into a full-time organization overnight the reality is it needs to be incrementally implemented over time in order to prevent our current staff from saying like I have a couple out on leave right now that are not interested or they don't have the time to commit to come back so when we lose those people those that's a significant impact on the organization as a whole the $30 an hour will I be able ble to recruit people with that maybe but I won't necessarily be able to retain them if you will so I don't know what the numbers are exactly like to Zach's point but um it that's the reason we're able to get to 140,000 whatever it is is because of cost savings elsewhere that we currently are going to put into this the other challenge that we have is we need to be able to provide the adequate staff for or whatever incident it may be and currently right now we're not able to do that can add police officers and as Chief in indicated last time they're busy on stuff Public Safety or police events major domestics or whatever then it spells over to fire in the capacity to try to fill that Gap so a lot of this is really about scheduling but I can't schedule because one organization that's got took the opportunity to call is Oak Grove and Oak Grove spends I propose this to I told you I proposed is that didn't call you back but no I I had a really good conversation with him good guy um but the the challenges that we have is that for instance use o Grove's example and this is the same scenario that I did bring to organization in December 2022 is hey we'll pay you a stien 25 bucks at that time plus your hourly call rate and that's exactly what Gro is doing but when I add those numbers up Oak Grove is paying their organization 78,000 or almost $79,000 for them to stay home and I get no benefit for that outside the fact that there might be two firefighters at home to respond so what I'm trying to do I believe my job is to look down the road and figure out to try to help Council and and the community better understand kind of how we can maintain currently what we have As you move forward because if too many people quit regardless of the tax rate is what it is today or if it needs to double tomorrow and that's going to be because we don't have staff and then we have to figure out something else so that was the reason for bringing forth basically what we're bringing forth is try to maintain what we have for the longest period of time and this is what the department wants I don't manage a group of people like Zach manages where we are full-time and more or less this is how we pay our bills and everything else at the end of the day these folks are basically volunteering their time the extra time that they have and so that's kind of where we're at with that Paul um you have an increase in your wellness program for two grand what is that it's for therapy dog oh okay um the just food and vet pills everything else the dog is covered yeah uh um so so that's one where I I mean I would be fine doing much more in that area um I mean covering the these the smaller benefits that help the officers do what they're doing I have no problem kicking more money into that I I know don't you guys have like a weight room or something or exercise room um and then it also until covers our head up checkup okay and then we're looking at using the public safety dollars um for full body scans and health checks good things to do yeah is there something you'd like to add to the operations budg um again all of these things the the the the small pieces you you get to mess with that stuff like that I'm I'm I'm fin um it's just the body count that that I get concerned about the the that's that's where I start to per up here is because that's a built-in cost every year um I have a question on the therapy therapy dog thing the only reason I'm asking this is somebody and I have no idea who it is it was you Scott don't Li we all know did you see it I know you posted whoever that is I mean whoever that was how was that huh I just don't get the N I don't understand it either just grow up here and put it out there you know for that reason that exact reason all of a sudden with this dog thing what if the dog falls out of the squad and breaks his leg what do what happens then does the taxpayer pay the vet bill to fix the dog or do we just get a new dog uh it depends on whether those expensive depends on the injuries I'm a farmer man you just get a new one expensive so do you pay for the training too we do well at least my proposal that you see in Council for this evening Soldier 6 is providing that at no cost to us CU those those numbers aren't in the packet I mean it's yeah yeah but there's no cost in that okay that that was going to be a question of M what happens if the training there's a lot of organizations that train the dog and then they yeah same they do with police dog same they they donated all the time to train the dog they have to be trained to be able to handle certain situations and handle different things cuz um we don't want to have a dog freak out and lose its mind and bite somebody because it hurt a siren or something then we're not not we're not making any progress then they so those organizations also get funding through light lions and they they get money that way yeah so that's so they cover up I just don't know how I mean obviously there was a lot of pres that did respond on that deal I mean it's very positive com I think but there's no numbers thrown at in that and would would the city of Dayton support if it was a $110,000 vet vet bill I don't know the numbers weren't in there but if you just at the small sample size of 20 people that commented 20 of the comments were in favor of it again super small sample size can't guarantee their all day res spe there's a lot of caveat that but yes overall that seem to be supportive of the idea I mean $10,000 over 9,200 people is only a dollar a piece for the year well and if it's a dog that's that's got a history you have a known Factor too that really helps it probably easily be with the 10K you guys can be sentimental I'm not so it's just the way it is yeah like my stuff that I'm proposing tonight that I didn't include in there is we're going to use as Paul as some of our Public Safety dollars and that was some of those dollars state funed state funded dollars or for that I do want to anything else on the budget yeah I just one comment or for David CU I know he's kind of I know he's just sitting hang one is Dave here I know the feeling yeah um May fish you made a comment earlier about staff or whatever and I have that same spread you have yep um and so one thing I want to make a caveat to and it it may not seem like such a big deal but the percentage of increasing one staff member when you have less staff is a much hard larger percentage than if you increase one or two households compared to larger household numbers so I did the math of okay so say you have 2500 homes and now you add 100 homes it's only 2600 homes that's a smaller percentage then you take 25 to 26 people you had one person for 100 homes the percentage change is bigger and 25 to 26 that it is from 2500 to 2600 so comparing percentages although sounds good I don't know if it's the best way to do it either and I don't know if there's a good one so I just want to make sure you know what the number of Staff per home has not been increasing correct the number number of Staff has increased the number of homes have increased then yeah so there has been back and forth so starting in 21 there was 280 people per one full-time staff we had 27 full-time staff and I'm guessing roughly on three people per house we had 7,564 people in this city that's my guess I have household numbers from our utility building company or utility building that's what I used what' you say 7300 um 7564 is what I got first population of 2021 and that's roughly 200 people 280 people per one staff member in 22 we had 290 so that would mean there's 10 more people per one staff 290 again in 23 and then we went to 271 in 24 cuz we had a numerous number of Staff this year which we appreciate and and got back to a number if you add three staff next year um that would be the two officers one one at midy year and one at the beginning of the year and then um one full-time staff whether that's Public Works likely would be the answer will one of the part- ERS to fulltime um we'd be at 275 275 people per one full-time staff if you move it to 41 with um the associate planner and that included the fire staff now you're at 269 and if you had the fire staff now you're at 256 per um resident so one 256 residents per one um staff number I'm going to tell you right now that nobody in this room knows the magic number um we do our best to guess what we think is right I know it's worked in the past but doesn't mean it will work in the future I will also tell you that every new Resident is much more needy than the old residents and I'm going to say that I camera because that's the case um people that are moving here are coming from other communities that are from that they have other services and so they're expecting the same services in the city that now they live in currently um when we had 4,000 residents everyone knew each other and so or we knew of neighborhoods so then you know the person to talk to and so that doesn't happen anymore as much as we'd like to think it does it doesn't so and I don't know what the magic number is either I can't sit here and tell you that I know what it is and you don't because I don't and I don't think anybody else does but and if you're using utility billing numbers that's not covering the whole of the city I'm adding I'm adding a number of people for like previously established households and and verifying okay so right now I have the population is around 11,000 I'm guessing at that I don't know if that's exactly right but it's probably pretty I have 11,400 so that's so that's I'm guessing so that's why do we want to ask da time cons fashion do you have anything dad you know I don't I I don't although I'm might have a hard time drilling down to what we're going to come back to um you know we I think we have some consensus on a couple of the items I'm not as clear about some of the other ones um so I I would say you for myself I haven't I haven't changed my opinion on the things that I mentioned at the beginning um the carry forward um and some of the the other savings that again Delan I'm I didn't weigh in on this I I am okay with the higher wages on the firefighters the pension piece I think is you know is a bit hard for me to understand that's not my area of expertise at all and so the Fire Relief piece versus the par piece you know I I would like to see more more about that it sounds like the direction we should go and I think we should talk a lot more about it but I don't think that's something that we should do in 25 and as I understand it it's dependent on the two hires which I also don't think we should do this year or in 25 I think we should push that out at least a year okay yeah so one last last thing though is and I'm probably in the minority here but the Eda did submit some kind of a budget like 65k or something like that yep and if it were just up to me I would prefer that we Levy for that because it's well it's the first time we've seen a budget from the Eda but if that's going to be their cost of doing business for for the year 2025 then we ought to include that in the levy but um well that's just where I'm at on that one okay so the main thing that I would take away from here which mayor Fisher had mentioned earlier is if you send something to me that would be greatly appreciated of things like absolutely I don't want to see this yeah um if you'll bend on some things and you get okay this is what I prefer doesn't mean that it's the end of the world if I get it that would be appreciated as well but if you have things that are like absolutely NOS that would be really appreciated if you send those in an email I'll do my best um I will we will bring back a budget in September So the plan is not meeting in the August we'll have a we will have another work session but it will be on the master plan and then um we'll bring back a budget in September um it'll be again I'll send it out prior to to get the council feedback it'll be somewhere between 14 and 16% it will not have exactly what it's being spent on yet CU I'm not going to to know that stuff but I need to have a number that we're able to go to the um statements with and we can always go down so iess said it'll probably be here towards 16 and that might mean that we put more money way towards savings for the ladder truck that might mean we bring it down to 15% or something at the in in December limited number of Council meetings left and a lot of things to figure out so mhm appreciate it great that's no objections we'll be adjourned thank you for