e e uh almost six six on my computer oh six John are we good to get going it is 6 o'cl we will call the June 6 uh 2024 Planning Commission to order uh first item of business is the Pledge of Allegiance the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with andice for all all right um roll call we we do have all of the planning Commissioners now present didn't anticipate the having to park at school we have a full house tonight um and uh just wanted to wanted to welcome everyone if this is your first time at a planning commissioner City Council meeting I I realize this is Planning Commission but welcome thank you for coming out um we have a a full agenda tonight um with a lot of public hearings and uh we'll we'll work through them all um the role of the Planning Commission is is listed on the the application the planning commission's role is is to administer the comprehensive plan zoning subdivision and regulations the commission acts uh or conducts public hearings and provides recommendations to the city council we are not we do not approve or or deny we make recommendations to council um the city council May approve or deny the land use application based on our recommendation so I wanted to make that clear um I guess with that we have the the next item of business number four approval of the agenda any corrections or changes no I'll make a motion to approve the agenda second we have a a motion uh from Darren and a second from Paul all those in favor I I all those opposed same sign motion passes 5- Z next item of business is the consent agenda uh the only item on the consent agenda is the minutes from May 2nd any corrections or changes to the minutes I'll make a motion to approve second a motion from Paul second from Nick all those in favor I I motion passes 5 uh next up open form open form is public comments limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items anyone if anyone is here for non-agenda items please come forward all right seeing none uh we will move into item seven Council update I will try to make this brief um so on the 14th we had uh an item for um the treatment facility the the state it's in we wanted a review by an independent um company and we this was their their uh result and there wasn't there was some small issues found but nothing significant we had the yearly accounting audit results same thing expected some of the expected uh uh items that we get every year were in there but nothing nothing significant financial report um everything looks like it's on track then we had a discussion about territorial Rush Creek intersection if we wanted to do something with that intersection um and at that at the time the council decided um that we wouldn't do anything with the road uh there was a later discussion about a possible acquisition of the property there was henan County came in to discuss some of the road work they wanted to do uh there was some discussion about how much we would have to kick in or they want us to kick in and how much of that would betrayal chip and fog seal we went forward with um a project to do a lot of sealant Rock ship um plans uh the wellhouse contract for number five was approved uh there was a discussion on Council Members as city employees um that that ended up being dropped at the next at subsequent meeting we also had a discussion on a possible uh uh treatment facility Grant um sound like that didn't get through the legislature and then uh May 28th we had a long work session on the fire department discussion was lad truck um which we later approved an order for there was discussion on property at um down on The Interchange uh and the decision was to not pursue that at this time and then there was also a discussion of looking at High ing full-time firefighters um there was a the chief gave a presentation on that there were no decisions on that they will be discussed during budget meetings Quick Trip truck stop was approved 4 to one pretty much as as you guys have had approved it uh Dayton Fields there was one of the properties that had or one of the businesses dropped out of it so it it was that that that section of the land was turned into just an outlot there was discussion on how we can maybe get a fairly accurate survey done um from our residents uh there was an acceptance of the fire study that we had approved a while back um at least accepting that product there it was decided we wouldn't necessarily use that as a guideline and then there was a discussion about Magnus veterans um is requesting that we drop their large assembly fees so there was a large discussion on uh possibly looking at nonprofits in general and cannabis use we approved that ordinance which just basically treats it like alcohol and then there was the closed session on the on that property that I mentioned earlier that's it all right thank you uh just a reminder for the the commission and and staff we have a lot of people out in the hallway that may not be able to hear so let's just try to speak up um I don't know if there's any way to turn on a speaker up [Music] there um we we have a big agenda tonight I understand asking is is the information you said online that we can look the the meeting minutes from from the city councils are online yep sorry um we we do not have speakers in the oh the lobby okay all right uh next up we'll move into public hearings item 8A item 8A is interam use permit for uh 13145 Grand granstrom Circle thank you Mr chair and being that we've got a lot of items I'm going to move through these fairly quickly so if I'm going too fast uh please Slow Me Down um so this is a request by the afcan Paul Carol for an interim use permit to allow more than three heads of poultry uh within the city code we allow poultry that's based the number of poultry is based on uh size of the property and the zoning of the property in this case they're allowed up to three heads or three heads of poultry uh they are requesting for more than that so up to nine so this would be eight ducks and one chicken um once again the property is located at 13145 Grand Strom Circle um as far as the critical issues that go for consideration by the Planning Commission is is the property appropriate for more than three heads of poultry uh kind of what the applicant's plan is that they have an existing chicken C coup or I'm just going to refer to it as a coupe um where uh the birds may be able to be run supervised within a fenced yard area um what else with an interim use permit there's a list of findings of fact that must be considered by the Planning Commission of the city council uh for this item in the following interm use permit I've got this list as the slide so there's nine items and what I'm looking for from the Planning Commission is on each item of you know is it this or is it not that so uh just to read these out and I think we won't go over them again in more detail item one for findings the fact the proposed use is or is not consistent with the comprehensive plan and the purpose of the underlying zoning District item two the proposed use will or will not substantially diminish or impair property values within the immediate vicinity of the subject property item three the proposed use will or will not be detrimental to the health safety morals or welfare of persons reiding or working near the use item four is the proposed use will or will not impede the normal and orderly development of surrounding property item five the proposed use will or will not create an undue burden on Parks schools streets and other public U facilities and utilities which serve or proposed to serve the area item six the proposed use is or is not adequately screened item seven the proposed use will or will not create a nuisance including but not limited to odor noise vibration or visual pollution item eight the proposed use will or will not provide adequate parking and loading spaces uh and storage on the site in compliance with the subsection item nine the proposed use will or will not protect sensitive natural features and just to be clear normally I don't read this but we've got a large audience so just for clarifications Anytime the the city approves whether it's an interim use permit or conditional use permit there are findings the fact that the city has to to find that they they either compliant or not compliant with this these nine items um so with that I'll turn it back over to the chair all right thank you um is the applicant here for this one would you like to come forward and hello hi uh state your name and and address and then my name is Stephanie Carroll address 13145 granstrom Circle Dayton and uh my name is Paul Carroll 13145 grum Circle D thank you um I guess just so our understanding right now you have you currently have three three uh two ducks and a chicken duck and a chicken we have two ducks and a chicken um we had three chickens originally we've had poultry since 2020 um and then two of our chickens died and then leaving one chicken her name is chicken nugget um she's crippled and she doesn't do anything she just sits there she doesn't make noise or anything and the other two ducks that we have are about a year old um they're a type of breed that is quiet they're winter hearty um we have two right now once our chicken passes away unfortunately soon she's geriatric um she will it will go down to two poultry basically and with chickens and ducks you can't just raise one chicken you can't just raise one duck because they're social animals or flock animals and so it's just not Humane to replace with just one so part of our reason why we're requesting it is just because um we just want some wiggle room we don't necessarily Want Nine I know it scared a lot of our neighbors they're like oh nine we're not looking necessarily for nine we just wanted wiggle room because our Chicken's still alive and once she passes away um we want to at least be able to replace her um and that would be impossible um to do it IL legitimately with just three poultry limit to our property um our setup is set up for technically 20 to 30 we we're not going to get 20 or 30 we promise um but you know we were thinking you know two at a time and go from there we're very responsible we tend to wear chickens and Duck Ducks daily we clean everything um as you can see from the pictures we're very responsible we take it very seriously the welfare of our animals yeah basically basically the plan would be to to potentially have two more Ducks um so that would be four total ducks and one chicken um we're going to determine what the management of that is first once we determine the management of it whether or not it's um we're not trying to uh be inconvenient to our neighbors either so we're also trying to make it conveniently managed for ourselves um and so uh our initial plan is to add two determine how manageable a total of five one chicken and four ducks is and then potentially add two more we don't really intend on going much further than that but that does put us potentially at the best case scenario at six ducks and one chicken you know and and even then that's only if the management of our next step of two additional you know is quite works out quite ideal we're not looking to to get in over our I think the neighbors are thinking we're going to get nine right away and it's like no not going to do that we're responsible um the duck breed is very it's a quiet breed it's docel um they're winter Hy they can't fly so there's no chance of them flying out of our property line because we have an entirely fenced backyard we also have a very large Coupe um again that Coupe is set up for 20 to 30 but we do not want 20 or 30 we just want a couple extra wiggle room that's all we're looking for with regards to the winter hardy breed have you guys overwintered poultry um the last since 2020 yep obviously last winter was very mild but yeah so we've had um like I said we've had poultry for since 2020 um we've done a lot of research um we had our ducks for this full year now um over the winter and um they're actually more Hardy than chickens are um they require a small uh container of water where they can dip their heads in and that's it but we have pretty much like a palace set up right now for our three ducks and so um they don't necessarily need all of that it's just that we spoil our Birds well and we appreciate the Aesthetics of our neighborhood as well and so we are trying to make steps aesthetically also um you know if you can tell by the photo that you do have like we we're trying to make make it make sure that it is as aesthetic as possible there's a second picture as well from a different angle perhaps that'll show the other um yeah there you go that'll show some of the other things that we got going on on the other side and so on and so forth so yeah we have a large garden um we're trying to be respectful and and initially um you know the letter reads nine ducks and it seems quite dramatic um and and it's we're not trying to scare our neighbors we're taking in baby steps and we're trying to do it legitimately we're not trying to pull a fast one on anyone you know we want it to do it legitimately and respectfully for sure any other questions for the app what is your manure management plan um good question we have composts so um that um hay right there um that's our compost area so what we do is we have a filter right next to that pond right there that filter catches everything it's pretty much vacuum sealed it holds all of the uh manure in there and then once a week we empty that manure into um the raised garden bed right there and that's it it decomposes and then we use that for fertilizer in our garden the machine we use is a machine specifically for that purpose of pond cleaning and so forth and um it's it's this really cool crank mechanism that allows you to clean the uh material that does the filtration inside the unit eventually you do have to replace that as well but um only every so often yeah it's a great permaculture because um it's a cycle so the Ducks we feed the Ducks our kale they they poo use the manure in our compost and we it's a great for the ecosystem because Ducks um they serve as a natural Pest Control they eat grubs they eat slugs snails mosquito larvey and Etc so they're really good for the ecosystem that way duck eggs are also remarkably similar to chicken eggs as far as eating and cooking so like despite like a lot of folks not being familiar with it I wasn't just a year ago um it's remarkably similar as well and so we we feel that's also an advantage just like having chickens yeah so for people who are allergic to chicken eggs there's duck eggs if you're allergic to chicken eggs so you know we've been giving away our eggs you know we eat them ourselves they're very good you should try it I should bring some in if you want I'd be happy to do it um incidentally I have managed to speak with a number of our neighbors I haven't had a chance to talk with everybody but up until even today I've managed to get a hold of a couple neighbors just to clarify similarly with yourselves but you know the intent isn't not it's it's two let's see how it is maybe two more if we really like it yeah so Ducks also tend to produce mud naturally they like water and so what is your mud management plan how do you maintain that that they still have access to water without turning your entire lawn into a big giant mud pit good question so if you look at our Coupe um not necessarily that picture but the other picture we have papers so we have uh those papers there they um on the side they can kind of dig their beaks in but it's not a mud pile because it's completely lined with pavers um so that manages the mud really well it's pretty clean in there I might once a week spray it down um and that's it it's not really muddy yeah we've added paper s then as well and what we do we'll take some hay and uh and orad and move it to one of the paved surfaces once that material is used we'll put it out to compost or use it elsewhere and then um um spray down the paper you know it works very well are you set up to double the amount of manure you're going to get yeah yeah yeah double double but you know as we as we approach as we approach poultry right as we approach poultry that's why that's why we're not looking necessarily at you know the high end of necessarily yeah exactly we we want to also be able to manage it as well we want it to be fun for ourselves and our family uh we have two two kids that help us yeah they do it every day so so yeah any other questions I have one more I have several more um what are you doing about uh concerns about wild um like bird food right because you have a pond right behind you and so wild ducks are and geese are going to come to that pond and they have diseases and your ducks are right there so how do you manage to make sure that your ducks are not exposed to the wild avien diseases it's a great question um well I'd go two two ways there um so first of all in our observation of of geese and duck so far they don't exceed our fence line so we do have a fence line up there um I haven't seen that one Goose or duck cross that fence line yet um if they were to cross that fence line which I have not observed we we do have a dog that chases them and then and then also and then also um that run right there for for the birds that we do have we leave them enclosed which is why it's such a generous run because we want to be able to be okay with leaving them for longer periods of time without necessarily feeling as if we need to bring them out they still feel like they get it they get supervised runs outside we do have a lot of predatory birds so to leave and we've already lost a chicken to a predatory bir so to to to leave them unsupervised outside of this run area we've created we we wouldn't want to do that yeah that would not happen we would always supervise them um if they are outside of that run area from you know we just wouldn't even have that option or possibility for them to run into the wildli the wild uh waterfall so we we would never let go out into the pond they would never come back feel like it's better out here yeah they're like we're free know okay that was all my questions oh and honestly they're so they're they're built they're they're they're well nourished so they can't fly um there's no way take yeah yeah so yeah yeah all right any other questions all right we are going to open the public public the public for now or the public hearing and we may call you back up to ask a few more clarifying questions but thank you information thank you all right uh at uh 6:23 we will open the public hearing on the first item if anyone is here to speak on on that please come forward state your name take I'll take your piece of paper here Z I'll take your your yep your papers name and address please gray Parson uh 13165 grandstone Circle I'm the black house in the other picture you can see um yeah I'd like to start off saying that Paul and Stephanie are the best neighbors I've ever had um they're fantastic they take care of their animals they are great but as they mentioned the nine poultry did was kind of scary to me not scary but kind of concerning um the coupe is very close to my property line and pretty close to the house and within 50 ft of my deck as well so yes the Ducks are a lot quieter better than the chickens but um you know times that by three it could be quite a bit of a nuisance what I have to say about that I mean they're great neighbors they'll take care of the animals I'm not worried about that it's just they make noise and they make smell noise correct y make noise and smells so thank you thank you thank you right anyone else here for this public hearing all right Mr chair we did receive uh two emails that had opposition so those were distributed planing Commissioners prior to the meeting is it pertinent to read those uh was there two on this one or one there's two there's yeah the LA second one came in kind of at the last minute so and I think I think just to summarize both of both of them they they had the same concern nine might be just a a little too many at this time any all right with that we will close the public hearing at uh 6:25 any discussion um so Ducks tend to need more friends than chickens do like three chickens can be healthy but particularly if there's a male duck they need more um can't remember if their hands are not basically the boys need more girls um they're a little more vigorous than uh roosters are um so so they just need to have more girls to spread that around to um so if you're having ducks and you have both genders you need at least four ducks preferably five or six if you're going to have both genders um but if you have all girls or all boys which obviously all boys unless you're raising meat birds you don't want all boys um but if you have all girls you can have a smaller number of girl ducks and be okay um so another question I would have is if we wanted to restrict to all hens and and no Drakes um that would be like one you could keep the numbers a little smaller in a healthy safe way um but if there's if if if not it is reasonable to have a few more Ducks than it is chickens based on their just relationships with each other oh um so are you planning to have both genders or just um just girl ducks and why I okay um because then you don't need offense to the boys but yeah know they don't they don't L eggs and and you know incidentally I did want to add because our plan was initially adding two and then having a chicken with four total Ducks I understood that put us under the six uh you know I did express some um caution over nine and how nine would be perceived as opposed to six and so you know of course this discussion is going to be pertinent for just general you know zoning needs and so on and so forth and so I do appreciate that fully however do understand as well we are flexible uh and understand that you know if we fit better in the uh six range you know it is what it is we're flexible people we're not looking for nine I I you know yeah so that would be so if they're all going to be girls then you don't necessarily need that many um I personally I also I have 48 chickens so like I'm on 18 Acres I don't have like I don't have to worry about my neighbors right but I do have to think about manure I have to think about um disease I have to think about like water management I have to think about all those things so like I If scale matters right right and 3 to 9 is quite a jump right so um I personally would I I would I'm not saying I'm totally an agreement with it but I would feel more comfortable and open to the discussion of maybe going up to five so you could add two more so you'd have four ducks and one chick chicken and then let that ride for a year or two and then if you wanted to come back at that time and ask again for a higher number that also gives your neighbors a chance to see how five did um i' I'd be that I would be a little more okay with than going all the way to nine I and you because at the end of the day you are in a residential neighborhood in a small lot so and your neighbors I mean I drove by you're all up you're all like you're not in an older neighborhood with like a lot of trees and a lot of screening like there is no screening everyone can see your yard yeah exactly so so that's a different situation um so that would be that would be what I would be open to as kind of a compromis position um but I'm not like strong on either way so but I am Pro poultry so just want like I get it I get it um would we be able to go six because that's two headed and that's basically how this I would have applied for six had I known this would have been an issue I would even applied for nine I don't need nine just question for John then is we work in animal units we we don't work in one and a half animal units or what can we do here we can do math we can do math we can we can math I yeah so and uh just for clarity so when the council appr you know whether it's approval or denial there let's say they they approve it there's conditions of approval so there's three of them that that I'll just read out and this is in draft form uh number one the interm use permit shall be limited to three animal units as defined by the city code and for example nine poultry larger than the ordinary pigeon so you can decrease that to to six and we'll just do the one and a half animal units uh I two the premises on which the animal is kept or maintained shall be kept in clean and sanitary conditions including removal of all feal manner embedding material and shall not be a harbor for rodents flies or insects and item three the interm use permit shall expire with the change in property ownership from Paul and Carol or Paul Carol and Stephanie Carol to somebody else so one of the things this also hinges on is your the breed of duck you've chosen because it is a quiet breed naturally can we put that in that it has to stay the quiet breed and so that we can't we can enforce that okay I I was just curious so I mean I can tell an oak tree from a maple tree but not you can't tell one duck a complaint if there's a complaint though regarding noise it would really M or odor it wouldn't matter what breed it would be correct yeah so John are you suggesting that we maybe shouldn't put that as a condition because you can't enforce it or do you think it still provide I I think it provides some comfort that somebody can help us or the city figure out what breeds they are yeah you might not be able to know other people sure so the the way the Ordnance reads were we're just calling it poultry so whether it's a duck or a chicken or a pigeon um but we can put a condition on it to be a certain species of it right I know it be hard yeah because we put condition I think we're covered if cuz really no matter what read it is one time we're going have an issue is so there's a complaint and then there's a complaint regardless so there's other enforceable ACS yeah yep I'm just saying you know I think you guys are is it the kayuga kuga and Welsh Harlequin okay um I mean they're they might quack like they might go and then they'll stop I mean it's no louder than a dog honestly there's there's probably a short list of ducks that all you know uh run on the quiet side of ownership and whatnot we we we try to stick to that like runner ducks are quiet too we try to stick to that list that's you uh so my comments when I first saw this is one I was wondering you know it's a residential subdivision neighborhood small lot is how appropriate is this and and not just I like to look at things by property kind of remove the owners and neighbors that I'm not getting you know sidetracked by the other stuff and so that was one of my concerns is I would be more comfortable with two animal units than three um because I don't think three animal units is generally appropriate in subdivisions regardless um and there's some debate whether two is even appropriate I mean I can understand why uh some neighbors would be concerned um some neighborhoods have HOAs that that dictate this that it never even gets to us to be honest with new subdivisions I'm assuming your HOA either you don't have one or it's silent you don't have one okay so that's kind of where I'm at is I would potentially be okay with two but I would also be okay uh denying it and just sticking with the one as the precedent says this is what happens in subdivisions understandable any any input or discussion you I I I think if we approve it it'd be nice to have a condition to just provide some screening vegetative screening there whether it's some arbites or something that would give your round screening to your neighbor that's directly next door um it looks like there's enough room between the fence and the coupe um and you know it just Beau to your yard a little bit anyway um um we we have the we have the um the spala trees right there and they have grown in quite a bit however the back end of the Tobe there is nothing right there so I get you know we can we can yeah it'll take a while for those um hatrick trees to grow in but once they do they'll be eight foot tall but but yeah you know right now they're definitely not something there could be um we also have added some brick where we've got planters that are going to grow some flowers on that side as well um and it's yeah actually you can see the cinder block we're going to add um some foliage up so we're trying to make it look nice and we definitely appreciate obviously your guys time in consideration and and all and we respect all of your opinions um it you know we understand either way I I do need to say that the only thing that should probably maybe be left for debate among city council would be the idea of poultry and pairs as opposed to an odd number thus leaving a single animal that's the only other it item I would leave out for you guys for future you know it doesn't have to apply here per se but you know what I mean like just just as there's a lot of people in our neighborhood that have poultry and um they're running into the same problem that we're having and that when you only have uh allotted two three poultry it's going to be difficult to uh replace that third one place we get our ducks from when sell it to us yeah they won't sell it to us as a single chick or duck Ling all right um so I guess my my thought on this um the ordinance counts it by units I would like to stick to the unit instead of an odd number just for ease of ease of everyone's understanding um with this I would like to go to personally I'm in favor of two units I don't I think I think you guys understand and we you're welcome to come back if you decide and and can maintain that and go up to three we can revisit it at that point and conversely of course if you know we don't wish to cause our neighbors any inconvenience either and so you know again when the letter read nine I did go around the neighborhood in order to clarify some of that cuz I felt like it read extreme also yeah understandable completely yeah we'll take good responsibility of it way John can you talk a little bit about the process of revoking in iup and how that would go about sure so going back to the findings of facts so you know let's say all nine of these items you know the the council says you know it like item number one for example the proposed to use is is consistent with the comprehensive plan if for whatever reason the the city believes that it is not consistent with the comprehensive plan um we it can come back for consideration to revoke the intern use permit there has to be a reason for each one of why you know what whatever these are and you know comprehensive plan is probably the the worst example on this list of nine so it's more so if there's a public nuisance where uh you know the the the Ducks there's an odor or something else as an example so when I think about that and think about this being an iup an interim use permit um and and I I go through this list of of 10 items you know the couple that gave me pause um was number two whether or not it would substantially diminish property values I think could given what we've heard in the testimony from the property owners and the public testimony I don't believe that to be the case in this particular situation it could if things got out of hand um six uh you know I think Paul you had a good point about it being adequately screened I I think some screening um would be helpful along that side given its proximity to that property line so I think that can be addressed and then you know from the public testimony we heard was really and and and read received I think was the fear of a nuisance um and also the the public had attested to that they are great Neighbors they do take care of the the poultry that they have um so I'm inclined to believe that it would not create a nuisance if that continued but if it did become a nuisance I feel that would be grounds for having another discussion and potentially revoking the iup if it were to become a nuisance um so you know therefore I I kind of Peter I align with you in that increasing it to two units for six it's not as substantial it's not as as far as what the proposal initially was and it and Sarah as you mentioned it kind of does give the neighbors an opportunity to see and and and for for you all to prove that it won't be a nuisance and you know odor and noise and and won't diminish property values and and you have the ability to screen it and and go through with that that that's kind of where I said it seems as though it we could um have a a a positive view of those findings in fact uh you know with that all being said I'm going to make a motion to approve the iup uh with two animal units and um I don't know exactly how to treat the condition of screening giving that the trees that they have there they're kind of coning on or if we're asking for something different I I had heard um uh mention that there's nothing on the back back end of the coupe maybe potentially in the Run area um and I think maybe some I would encourage some sort of ever like an AR something like that that's year round screening too um that will also help with noise yeah yeah we have a motion second SEC we have a motion from Darren and a second from Nick all those in favor I I all those opposed and just any clarification on the screen so this would be a row of Arbor Bing or something similar along the the East fence I don't know about the fence because there's already trees there they're going to grow um they're just little right now okay so that's where I'm struggling with the screening concept so they're talking behind the coupe so I'm assuming that's on the house side correct uh yeah and I think actually when I when I take a look at it you'd have two options one would be to anticipate the growth of the Tree closest to the run you see in the picture off to the right and you can anticipate its full adult growth and start planning our BVI from that point of anticipation towards the fence lying closer to our neighbor's house and our house and um and or uh you could remove the cinder block and replace it with our RI because the point of you know overwinter is legit you know it'll help big time yeah so so and that and and the cinder block with planter doesn't do that necessarily so so you'd have a couple of options there or privacy screen um we could do like a like a metal privacy screen or wood priv privacy screen so so I'll make this recommendation on the screening we don't have to figure it out tonight because this does have to go to City Council why don't you work with your neighbor to figure out sounds like he's he's amable to something work with him and propose something at city council as far as screening goes but we recommend some screen thank you this item we go to the city council on June 25th all right figure that out right here next item thank you guys next item is a public hearing for the ordinance Amendment commercial kennel interim use permit at 12350 Overlook Road thank you Mr chair uh there's two items are two requests with this this one uh I'm going to kind of go back and forth between the two the first is a text Amendment to the city code to allow commercial kennels in the R1 District as an interm use permit if that is approve the second item is interm use permit for commercial kenel and there we go um okay so item number one for a commercial kennel uh the difference between a private kennel and a commercial kennel I'll say private kennel is a place where five dogs over 6 months of age are kept on the premises which are zoned and occupied for residential purposes and where the keeping of such dogs is incidental to the occupancy of the premises for residential purposes so if I have five five or more dogs as a pet as pets that that is a private kennel with the commercial kennel it's five or more dogs and that are boarded trained bred or for compensation or offered for sale so this is where it becomes a business where and that's why we call the commercial kennel uh let's see so going dig back into the question that I would I would ask if I were sitting up there is where can you have a private kennel and a commercial kennel um a commercial dig into where this is okay here we go um and I apologize I don't have this as a slide so uh private kennels are allowed in essentially Mo every zoning District where you can have a house in um so the exception would be the industrial districts some of the business districts and uh I'll just say The General commercial areas in town so that a private kennel is either a permitted use or a conditional use for five or more adult dogs uh commercial kennel is a conditional use in the agricultural districts and some of the business districts it is not allowed in the R1 single family residential district which is the applicants what the applicant's property is zoned as um the R1 it is fairly popular in the city so that we have about 1,200 properties in the city so uh any change to the R1 District does affect every property that's zoned R1 so that's all 1,200 or so properties um if that is approved so the second request is the interm use permit for a commercial kennel and this would be at 12350 Overlook Road uh here in Dayton uh the applicant's business it it's it is existing the kennel is primarily within inside the home uh they do take the dogs out for exercise or walks just along the driveway but predominantly the for minor taking the dogs or house inside the home um the critical items or critical issues with this is is a commercial kenel appropriate for this location and if yes under what I conditions uh such as limiting the number of dogs or the location of the kennel um and probably anything else that you can think of screening as we spoke about with the last item so uh similar to the last item with the approval or denial of any interim use permit there's nine items or nine findings of fact that the the city council needs to make and the city council's determination is really based on on what the Planning Commission comes up with as a recommendation so uh just to read these over again uh item one is the proposed use is or is not consistent with the comprehensive plan in the purpose of the underlying zoning District item two the proposed use will or will not substantially diminish or impair property values within the immediate vicinity of the subject property item three the proposed use will or will not be detrimental to the health safety morals or wealth of persons residing or or working near the use item four the proposed use will or will not impede the normal and orderly development of surrounding property item five the proposed use will or will not create an undue burden on Park schools streets and other public facilities and utilities which serve or are proposed to serve the area item six the proposed use is or is not adequately screened item seven the proposed use will or will not create a Nuance including but not limited to odor noise vibration or visual pollution item eight the proposed use will or will not provide adequate parking and loading spaces and storage on the site is in compliance with the subsection and item nine the proposed use will or will not protect sensitive natural Futures I'll hand it back over to the chair all right thank you is the applicant here for this one they were yeah believe I saw them yeah the mark and Ally Holman all right let see I know I don't know if everyone in the lobby can hear us okay or not he you no okay right um all that we did have a number of uh uh testimonies that we received that were distributed to the Planning Commission prior to the meeting yes we have a number of of testimony in a in a packet uh fairly thick um I paged through it and read through some of the the emails um yeah the applicant is not here sorry okay yeah the applicant either left or is not here so okay um with that um I think we'll open the public hearing on this one um at uh 6:48 is there anyone who'd like to come forward and and speak please state your name and and address as 12511 um I don't really have to answer I gu more questions um how would this affect the traffic on our street um we are in a dead end so everybody that visits has to go down and back right and we have a lot of houses with very young children that all play outside how would this affect my taxes if you know our property has changed to commercial um and just kind of what the plan would be as far as if there is you know the nuance and you know things like that are my bigest concerns thank you all right thank you thank you I'm Daniel little I actually live in a o I'm not a Dayton resident but I was a guardian home for Ali mark for a year and a half um so I just like to say my experiences um I was a guardian home from November I don't like public speaking by like dogs so I'm here um Guardian home from November 2021 to May 2023 um during that time I knew them when they were in their Brooklyn Park house and that's why they asked me to Guardian home and I would argue that I was me their main Guardian home cuz I took eight dogs of theirs in my household back and forth um I didn't know the breeding thing there was no instructions they just agreed they would provide food and vet care and then I would give the dogs love I had a couple other dogs like I said I love dogs um in that time I got to know more uh they did a lot of their vet care in their house in my house uh we would bring their dogs me and my kids at their beck and call kind of for the breeder they would impregnate them in their house I don't don't know if that's um uh usual but um anyhow uh and then in May one of their dogs jumped off my couch and tore their knee and they took all the dogs from us and well they they sent a contract then after a year and a half saying you have to sign this contract it was basically that you pay for everything and at the end of the the the breeding they they can take the dog back and I said no and they took all the dogs out of our house um back to their house so I just don't think it's a very E I don't think they're very ethical breeders in my opinion working with them for a a year and a half and everything was verbal over text message I've got them all um but uh yeah nothing was outlined nothing was contracted it was kind of and they promised the dog we get to keep the dogs afterwards and went back on their words so I just don't think they're the most ethical breeders which is why I'm here thank you thank you thank you yeah the next topic this one evening thank you [Music] not that not before you get started just as a reminder uh to anyone coming up and I'll I'll try to remember this at each one and no one's really G over that much but three minutes is is what you're given to speak so got it I'll talk super fast um I I'm speaking on behalf of somebody else who's in Georgia who um her son just died he's a law enforcement she can't join via the link so I am going to um discuss some bullet points that she that she had for you guys um um so I'm here tonight to voice my concerns with you guys granting the conditional use permit amended ordinance for La Mark Coleman who are operating as bold North puppies um formerly bold North Frenchies there have been long-standing issues with these individuals and their business practices in previous communities that they lived in as well as lawsuits in Minnesota um so they've got three closed and three currently open um against uh theirselves they've got one open case out of Hab Hill district court in Massachusetts in The Last 5 Years she's changed her business name multiple time she started as Masterpiece Frenchies changed to bold North Frenchies and is now bold North puppies she is breeding not only Frenchies but Chihuahua as well as English bulldogs and she's offering her um cone Corso Baron out on stud before they moved to Dayton they lived in Brooklyn Park where they operated the same business after a neighbor Jacqueline and Scott bork strand filmed a dog fight that Ali broke up they witnessed her hitting the dogs and using physical Force to separate that fight in October of 2021 they called law enforcement and reported them for animal abuse Animal Control along with law enforcement went to her property she had approximately 20 plus dogs in her home at that time and was given two weeks to remove the animals she was allowed to keep three adult dogs and any dogs under the age of 6 months she then listed her house for sale and began building the house in Dayton after this incident based off the volume and numbers of dogs they are a commercial kennel backyard greeters if you will operating in a residential area where sadly the dogs are paying the ultimate price for their greed they have proven time and time again based off how they run their business profit takes priority over the health comfort and Welfare of the dogs and mine is one of many heartbreaking stories outlining the Shady and cruel business practices these individuals are participating in the animals suffer at the hands of these humans it is inhumane and they will do whatever they need to do to maintain a low overhead to Maxim maximize their profits including utilizing Guardian homes and shuffling dogs they did this in the Brooklyn Park Incident as well on July 5th 2023 I saw a post on Facebook from Ali homman that read We rescued this beauti beauti girl from a breeder in Florida who was in deplorable conditions she was also slowly dying due to severe pamer infection that was never taken care of we transported her all the way to Minnesota and got her life-saving care and surgery as well as having her Spade she goes on to indicate how this dog is now healthy 3 years old and looking for her forever adoptive family in a small rehoming fee applies I paid Ali homman $1,000 and met her at the Target in ATO at 11:00 a.m. on 7623 I knew immediately after getting IV in my care she was everything but healthy I never received any proof from Ally regarding the story she told me about Ivy other than a random photo of a concrete pad where she claimed she was kept upon getting IV home that day she immediately began to have explosive watery diarrhea Ally claimed she had normal stools up until leaving her home and that this was stress related on 77 not even 24 hours into having this dog I had to take her to the vet on an urgent emergent basis at that vet visit they found her to have a poor body condition said she was 5 to 7 lbs underweight she was tested and diagnosed with bilateral ear infections and moderate to severe parodontal disease her muscle mass was wasted and she was very weak as well as dehydrated she was also diagnosed with a bad skin infection that required antibiotic treatment her lab work revealed that she was anemic with an elevated white blood cell count likely related to her ear and skin infections on 78 we had to return back to the vet and we were told she had a heart murmur as well as still having sutures in place from spay that was performed by Ali's vet on 615 those vet records indicate that the sutures were to be removed within 10 to 14 days meaning June 29th at the latest they were still present on July 8th of 2023 the vet at that time had to remove those sues we are just over 3 minutes here okay um as it relates to the I I understand the the concerns of the care and and the the the care of the animals is there any concerns and concerns with how how they've treated animals that that's been made clear with what you yeah so I guess in short that's that's the point that I'm trying to get at I think anybody that you're going to hear from in this situation you're going to hear several accounts of neglect um abuse uh the home is doing their own vetting which is resulting in these dogs having issues um a lot of dogs have died um but that that's the issue um thank you for the the summary yeah uh and I think that came through in in in what you had read already um so want to I don't no I I get it and I was trying to talk fast so I guess in short my I I just this is not the kind of business that I would think you want in your community and so I'm begging you or urging you rather to deny this business on both of these permits thank you thank you can I go into the next person's or that I was speaking for or I mean it outlines the same thing and I think um John received several emails as well so yep yeah yep I that was the the of the the packet you guys got it okay well I would ask this in the other testimonies is there anything unique that is not in what you just read us yeah a majority of the people have had animals die within anywhere from 12 hours to two-ish months um after getting off the plane um I my case is probably pretty mild compared to a lot of the stories that these other people have um thousands and thousands of dollars in vet bills and dogs that are are no longer living um I mean it's it's it's awful thank you we appreciate it thank you um anyone else here to speak on um thank thank you good evening name and address please Maryann satano Schumacher I actually live in Woodbury Minnesota but I'm here don't boo me but I'm here on behalf of an organization called the animal folks and while I understand that you've all now heard quite a bit about the allegations connected with the business practices I want to talk about it a little bit through the perspective of animal folks which is an Animal Protection Organization um by way of background animal folks is I said is an Animal Protection Organization um and we are concerned with animal cruel animal neglect and very concerned with reform of the systems in Minnesota connected with animal cruelty and its penalties as such we're very very familiar with the laws not only in the state of Minnesota but National laws and local laws connected with animals and breeders commercial breeders now while I understand your determination is more connected with the land use one of your factors in your findings of fact is and let me find it has to do with the health safety morals or welfare of persons residing or working near the use obviously a business with questionable practices including suspected animal neglect and abuse is not a business that you want in your community um so furthermore upon information and belief you're you have heard stories about these animals and this came to our attention when we received a bunch of complaints from consumers who bought uh Frenchie uh dogs from this organization some of the stories were extremely distressing dogs who were flown across the country in sick conditions only flown by flight nannies little puppies arriving with feces and urine all over them and dying shortly after dogs arriving with all kinds of diseases horrible diseases and you're going to probably hear a little bit more about that and I know that you know we're kind of bordering on Beyond but I did want to finish if past is prologue meaning what they've done in the past is a strong indication of what they're going to do in the future future this is not a business where you want to approve an interim use permit in your city um first of all what's what's probably most noteworthy for you is the Dayton ordinance that requires them to have an interim use permit to run this kennel has never been obtained and they've been running this kennel and breeding facility uh for over a year uh secondly they've certainly violated upon information and belief the pet lemon laws in the state of Minnesota they've um violated both state and federal consumer protection laws they violated USDA licensing requirements upon information and belief Minnesota tax laws um and most importantly Minnesota laws pertaining to animal cruelty the Minnesota pet and Companion Animal act um and the animal cruelty statutes in the state of Minnesota um so I will conclude my remarks by simply saying animal folks supports all of these consumers who have purchased these animals and feels very strongly that this body should not recommend the approval of this business um in zone one R1 I believe it was thank you thank you thank you hello hi hi name and address for the record please I'm Rachel Armstrong I came in from Colorado uh 2355 yellow cat Court in gr Junction Colorado I'm coming in to speak on behalf of a puppy I purchased from Bold North Frenchies on May 4th 2023 her name was Willow I received nothing with this puppy no paperwork no vet records no consumer rights no date of birth Etc not only this but she was sick and would not eat and within 48 Hours she was admitted to our emergency vet for life-saving measures Ali Holan was upset by this and her words and I quote emergency vets have zero knowledge about weeling ask any breeder they would never take their vet take their puppy to a vet it is well known after this Ally and Mark hullan cut off all communication with me it is my opinion they could care less if my puppy lived or died this is the text I've received or I gave to her I said looking at the contract we are in charge of medical care so there are two options you can refund my $88,500 that I paid for this dog and absolve us of responsibility regarding the health of the dog you have directed us not to get emergency care for or we are taking her to the emergency vet to try and save her life as we believe this is to be a life-threatening issue we must have your answer by 6:00 p.m. today at 5623 We Believe she needs to be at the vet to prolong any blood test and saving her life in the Humane and not in the best interest of the dog and her text back was you are welcome to take her to the vet at your own expense otherwise you can send her back tomorrow so after that I didn't hear a word from her my puppy Willow lived with me and my family for the next 68 days until her poor little body gave out I currently in a lawsuit with bold North case number 27- CV2 24209 which holds all pertinent information on my case bold North Frenchie sold me this sick and dying dog with no license to sell and flew the dog over state lines by using a flight Nanny with no CDI license my puppy's Litter Mate Nola also died exactly the same way her owner Jen diarco has won a judgment of $52,000 I'm asking you to deny her a permit to proceed with such cruelty to animals and disregard of human and animal suffering thank you thank you you hi hi I'm casy Anderson I live at 14069 9th Avenue in Zimmerman um I also purchased a dog from the homans um I'll make it sure because it's kind of a um on repeat but um I purchased a dog for Ally was a mentor and a referral partner I wanted to get into the breeding business uh purchased dog for the purpose of breeding and the dog is um has hip dysplasia at under one years old she has allergies she cannot be bred um which I get might not all be the responsibility of the breeder uh but there's no accountability they're sell their puppies with a prep pep price or a full limit price um I wanted I wanted some of the money back I because I can't breath the dog uh zero accountability zero um as a consumer um just zero ethics and then when taken to court uh consolation court she had no problems lying under o to the judge saying she only sells um under six puppies a year um just very poor ethical standards that's a thank you thank you good evening guys um my name is Julie schelberg I live at 15251 uh Ramsey Minnesota vuna um I purchased a dog from Bold North Frenchies um on 2723 with full breeding rights genetic test genetic testing and title of the dog when I tried to register the dog to the AKC the information came back that I could not register her so wrapping this up quickly um I could couldn't get the AKC papers I paid her for breeding and uh genetic testing came back finally after fighting um I re I retested her and it was completely a different dog so went to court I won my judgment um she appealed it um I still want it again and now we're going back to District Court cuz she wants to appeal it again we'll be there um so it's very very serious because the dog she gave us um wrong information on the dog um expired vaccin vaccines um no paperwork um she couldn't even remember that I had not pet price uh at our last hearing she sent the contract to the judge stating I had a pet price I paid almost $5,000 I had full breeding rights I had the contract so I won um so the thing is is she's gotten so big that she can't maintain what she needs to maintain and do the right thing um she doesn't know what dog she's sending where I have four birth dates two different parents two or three sets of AKC papers sent to me from her she doesn't know who she's giving out so it's about bettering the breed so my thing is is um holding her accountable so it she she does she's not running the business she's lost track of what's important and it's bettering the breed so I would ask you not to um give her the license um to run a kennel um it would Empower her uh and she's not going to stop so thank you so much thank you thank you also want to make sure the board board chair and members of the board know that there is one individual on the um Zoom that wants to speak so okay hello I'm Mary cner and I live on the same street as um she lives on and when she first moved into the neighborhood first of all I walk every day and get my 10,000 steps and all of that so I go up to the culdesac where she lives and at the time that she had new newly moved in um I was doing the Circle and she was out there and I stopped to say hello and a dog ran out of their yard and didn't stop just kept going and bit me on the back of my leg um it was just odd and anyway uh I don't think anything has changed since she has moved in um the dogs definitely I haven't seen them get loose but there it's not safe for we have so many little kids in our neighborhood it's just not safe thank you thank you thank you you said there was one on Zoom uh commission chair and MERS of the commission now there's three okay um all right do we want to go ahead take them great Jen you are unmuted hopefully we aren't able to hear you can you hear me y right sorry um so I am the case in Massachusetts um I purchased my dog Nala from Bold nor Frenchies in May of 2023 for $1,770 I had now for 18 days until she passed away she spent half of those day those days in level three car into multiple emergency hospitals Nala was sent to me by a referred flight n from alley I was given specific flight number and arrival time I went to the airport at that time and it turned out the flight name was never even at the airport of origin I was promised by Ally and the flight nny that n would arrive the same day no one at that point had told me the dog would fly on standby with an airline employ not a licensed car not a licensed carrier I figured out on my own it was a standby flight I searched for flights and not I was promised that n would come the same day Nala did not arrive to me that day she arrived to me the next day at 5:00 p.m. at Rhode Island in which I had to drive an hour and a half to get her that was not agreed airport the flight n Manny handed me over a fold of that red Haley on the cover Haley is is not my dog's name Haley was a sibling's name inside was a pamphlet of vaccines and AKC paperwork there was no CVI and no vet record showing that Nala had ever been examined and well enough to fly across the country Nala's first stool was bloody diarrhea which Ally who was a self-proclaimed expert and someone that I trusted told me it was normal because of travel Nala was seen in the doctors within 72-hour time period as expected Nala was discovered to be carrying two very contagious parasites Cox City and Guardia Nala quickly declined and stopped eating drinking and socializing she spent several days in the hospital in and out and ultimately ended her life there Nala's intestinal track was so damaged from the overload of parasit which then caused infections which made her septic developed pneumonia became oxygen dependent and later tested positive for kennel cough the multiple vet visits alone caus me $15,000 Ally was kept informed throughout the 18 days and never checked in to see how Nala was when I went when I let Ally know she had passed she questioned the amount I paid for the vet and said she had never heard of a dog dying from parasites allly directed me to speak to her husband Mark through email they said they would follow a contract to get a replacement dog I could not spend any more money after spending almost 30,000 in 18 days to have an autopsy and checked by two different fets I also did not want to replacement dog I wanted a refund I let them know that I would be filing suit and I never heard from again I did think I was The Unlucky One I could not find anything negative about the homans it was discovered that Ali homman controls that she deletes and threatens anything in anyone who goes against her later I was led to multiple woman with several experiences but one with almost the same exact circumstances it was actually Nala CA who was actually Haley was it a coinci coincidence Nala sistera also suffered and died the same exact way one could only wonder how we all found each other it's all because an innocent woman named Ronnie Roberts was seeking advice on a public fer about how her puppy she just received from a breida in which Ronnie never told anybody the name Ali homing connected herself and her name to that post by making a Tik Tok on how there was a crazy string lady who was a liar who was looking for a new to be paid and for this I thank Ally for connecting all of us victims and I ask that she does not get licensed thank you thank you thank you thank you uh Mr chair just notice in a email from the applicant that they are withdrawing their applications thank you yeah so commission share we have two or three others that are there I'm just going to let everyone know that we're going to just have them lower their hands because of the withdraw of the yeah I guess with the withdrawal of the application we will close the public hearing and then I believe we don't need to motion on this v no I the the house is currently for sale in the in the city so there if she leaves our city I know but right now she's probably over keeping it keeps going and she's been doing it since 2019 don't stop you guys are going to have more power than us cuz we're not going to let her do it in our city anymore yeah thank you thank you thank you thank you very much for coming all right and with that we we will move to it it 8 C item 8 C is concept plan blue stone [Music] properties all right uh so this is a concept plan for blue stone properties located at 18121 North Diamond Lake Road so generally it's the north area of of Diamond Lake um the applicants are markk jorgens and Brad langerman a concept plan and just for anyone in the audience there's kind of three parts to subdividing land that there's part one is a concept plan part two is a prelimary plant part three is a final plant with the concept plan this is the start and so a developer will bring in a a drawing to show to staff and to show to the plank fish and Council of you what do you think of this idea uh there is no formal approval or denial it's essentially you going to have one commissioner council member that says I like it and one that says I don't like it and the that's the advice that's given to the developer to figure out what does that mean and how do they want to change the project so uh again this is the very beginning of a stage in the first stage uh so again this is uh located on 40 acres on the North area of Diamond Lake uh the property is currently well there's five areas or five different applications that this project will need to uh go through uh the first is a comprehensive plan amendment to change uh the sewer staging plan the second part is a zoning map amendment to change the zoning from A1 agricultural to I'm thinking this is I'm not sure what the zoning District you're you're going to apply for but it'll be something other than agricultural the third item is a conditional use permit for Shoreland plan unit development a conditional Ed permit for a boat ramp and then the preliminary and final plan uh critical issues with this is uh starting out with an amendment to the Sewer staging plan it is the an amendment warranted and the second item is the neighborhood layout and connectivity and I'm being very general when I refer to this as uh within the comprehensive plan we have a sewer staging plan so this is a plan of how the city is going to develop um for the foreseeable future and so the sewer staging plan is divided into 10 year categories we have what we refer to as current which I'm just going to say it is today now uh and then there's 2020 2030 2040 and then post 2050 the general intent of the comprehensive plan is once the current stage is about half built out we would open up the 2020 stage so obviously we're past 2020 um we do not have control over the market of development that that's the buyers that's you know the sellers the buyers and the the builders and people that buy houses from the builders so um generally speaking the city's plan is to grow from the south to the north and from the East to the West uh this project is located more in I'm going to kind of refer to it as the M middle of the city um but it's also guided for post 2050 so the question for the planing commission and the city council is is it Justified to change the sewer staging plan uh the developer is proposing to bring in sewer from Rogers uh what is unique about this area is there's currently about 50 it's either 50 or 51 homes that are currently S serviced by sewer from Rogers and just for anyone in the audience that's looking at this this project is not going to change change the sewer for the existing homes like the sewer that you guys are on that's set um I don't know if there's any capacity to go beyond 51 units but it's not if there is capacity it's not going to serve as a whole new development okay so that's the sewer um growth management you know for everything that I've said it's still discretionary the council can do what it wants to do so uh just has a need it's a reason to justify changing the comp plan what else uh the map that's shown up here is the ultimate sewer plan uh what this this is from a comprehensive plan what it is showing is that all of Dayton um the undeveloped undeveloped areas of Dayton can be serviced by sewer and this is where we think the sewer lines would go um I mentioned earlier that this would be a shoreline Planning Development uh the Shoreland PUD for short is based on guidelines that are written by the DNR um I I'm to say that they're complicated would be generous um generally speaking what the p is intended to do is to have fewer homes along the lake and then to transfer more density away from the lake so the idea is is that the lake shore lots are going to be bigger than what they are in the interior Lots um within the comprehensive plan it also includes a park plan uh specific to this area it is uh guided for a Tot Lot within this jet I'm just going to refer to it as the Northwest area of Diamond Lake as well as a trail that goes around uh the Northwest portion of Diamond Lake also along um my cursor doesn't show up very well here uh kind of along oh here we go so Trail that kind of goes around the lake and then up through the property and then along both sides of North Diamond Lake Road as well as zanthus that's the park plan uh recommendations and and comments from the commission so three General things I'm looking for is number one is an amendment to the Sewer staging plan supported uh item two is the general plant design and connectivity of of the the development and then three is as it relates to parks and trails there we go the one question I have for staff is just you mentioned a little bit about the pipe in the ground and that it won't serve this development so a new pipe would have to come in would the new pipe connect to this existing pipe or no it would come from Rogers it's the the water pipe is 15 in and you would connect to that and then the water and or I'm sorry the sewer apologize the sewer would connect to there and you you know lift stations blah blah blah to move it that way yep Mark Mark if if you could speak it in the microphone and then also if you get introduce yourself oh like J's answer hi I'm Mark jorgens uh you want me to repeat that no actually I'm hoping Jason can give us his take on it um I just trying understand when the sewer comes here whether it's now or way in the future as what's go what's going on how the pipes and connectivities to work with is already in Dayton that's on public sew So currently the neighborhood north of North Diamond Lake is serviced by a lift station that pumps and is connected to the city of Rogers under an agreement what's proposed here is to do a separate connection to the city of Rogers similarly to the other development longterm how this would be served is by an Interceptor connection with the system extended all the way through the city of Dayton with no connection whatsoever to Rogers for this or the other development okay so you would have two essentially two Force Mains in in uh Diamond Lake Road that's what the applicant's proposing yep okay when the Interceptor does come through would this connect to that Interceptor or would this remain on the Roger system and what happens to the lift station Ely this entire area would be connected to the okay the system so the existing in place would be redirected and connected to the dayon system this presumably having if it were not to be developed until then would be connected to it as well okay who one more question on on the Force main from who who owns and maintains the Force main for the existing uh the city of Dayton's responsible okay and do we have the from a staffing capacity any issue taking on another not that I'm aware of I don't know if we have any consistent issues but we would have concerns about another process we have to now maintain another pipe so there's always additional s resources that are needed when additional pipe comes in yep for anine I will say to you that that it won't even be it won't all be you it'll be Rogers it'll be the Metropolitan Council we'll all everyone will get their hands in on the pipe and the the sewer so it's it's not necessarily but ultimately the lift station will be maintained by the city of Dayton and few number of I'm just saying you have you probably have three parties that will opine well the the Met Council owns their system Rogers dumps into their system and then s the city of Dayton would dump into Roger system no I know I I get that I but I've talked to all of these people and I realize I have to get their opinion yep and and that I just wanted to make sure from our staffing standpoint the concerns that our staff would have with with this um yeah and I think I would have if I were in that situation I would have similar concerns about maintaining a lift station for the small number of homes uh that's here right lift station maintenance does require uh routine checks uh do rounds check for Rags check for obstructions um you know if that lift station does not pump or cannot pump then everybody has a chance to back up so it is routine maintenance yep okay it has to be any other questions for staff not for staff before we go to the applicant sorry it was very nice of you yes um all right Mark you have the floor tell us a little bit more about your project and I I guess I don't know if we want to jump into questions if you don't have anything more to tell us so um the there's currently one do you mind do you mind yeah go Ahad reach over so there's there's one home here that's got um uh septic and and well and you know if you guys and and I guess when I first started this I heard of the septic and well problem on this side of town whether that's true or not I I don't know but I you have an agreement with Rogers handle those 51 homes yep to the east of here well yeah so generally it's right on they had water they had Wells and then you guys made an agreement rers again you guys probably know this I apologize so I thought instead of asking you guys for septic and Wells which we can if we want if you want but to immediately go to what the sort of end result you guys would want would be you know water and a sewer system so we would we would bring it in this way and because of the cost of that these homes need to be more expensive and the good thing is is that people in Minnesota pay to be on here not me maybe not you guys but um and I've talked with Charles cut home that we would use as a builder that would that would build homes we would take this section here and make s of a as much as we can with the dnr's approval a multi do so maybe 10 20 30 that would service all of these peoples so not only these people would have Lake access but everybody here would have in the best situation would have Lake access um you know holding ponds obviously uh and then I would say that you know this Lake well it's big and I think it it it is a desirable part of your town is not used as much as it should be there are you know like four homes down here that have got docks that that utilize the thing but that's about it I think and you guys tell me if I'm wrong with but there's public access on the South Park yes yes M and I don't you guys know better than me if that gets access or not it's heavily used I live right next door okay so heavily used everybody um and then again that's that's our idea is that because of the cost these things have to be more expensive so you know they would be somewhere around $2 million homes and there would be 40 45 and then Brad would take this slot he's 75 and he bought this five years ago thinking this would be his retirement site so we would give him this site here and that's where he would retire here's one so with the cost you mentioned the cost of the pipe so you guys are prepared that if this got approval that you would pay all the cost to extend the pipe in the lift station absolutely and yeah and that's I guess that's the the best point is that that's why I I need to get these up to $2 million to justify the cost so it's average price for all of them not just the Lakeshore ones I don't know what the lak shore ones would be they might be more okay but the average price would we would try to get near $2 million and I know that from doing the research I think the average price of the home here is $430 some th000 so it would be more and if we do 46 we're talking about you know almost $90 million worth of value and then you know if you did what is it 1% tax on that so you get about $900,000 in additional revenue from from the new what's the average size of the Lots sorry if it's in the pack and I didn't see it um and talking with each I I I talked with each individual council member and then I talked with uh met Council met Council wants a third third acre lots everybody on your Council was like adamant that they'd be half acre lots so all of these will be bare minimum Halfacre lots and I told that to met counsel and I said you're not going to get this thing done by trying to jam third acor Lots down on dayon so they agreed Susan Johnson agreed probably shouldn't say that out loud but that's the way it would work uh one other question I have and I'm not exactly sure where this is going but if we're doing if we go down the path of this concept plan have you approached the two neighbors to the West at all the Wonder uh we've talked by the way this this one was just sold uh I think that it was sold for a million and a half to $2 million6 1.6 1.16 and and then this gentleman if you remember he owns the Ford dealership nearby yeah and I guess that's my question is if we're if if we actually Entertain You Know allowing sewer to water to come here is the only thing that's really left to develop in this area is what's not developed north of those homes I have no idea if they're interested in participating in your development no idea if they support it and I'm just curious if you had discussions with them and can say anything about it he he wants nothing he he loves his okay so no here um I'm more mainly focused on the west where the bigger chunks of land these people yeah um that I know you know uh a lot of that if you go down to the church um I forget who if it's lar or or somebody is building like 700 to $900,000 homes down there but I think it's on Rogers Land I'm not I mean not yep that's Rogers so we we think that so A couple more things so up here somewhere some some gentleman is building spec homes for about 900 to 950 they're about four bedrooms about 4,500 Square ft and I believe that they've got septic and well and and he's building spec homes up there everything in this area is septic other than the neighborhood to the east again if we thought we were solving a problem by getting water and sewer but if you guys want to talk about septic we can go down that path that obviously changes the lot size because you guys know are you confident you you would be able to get well in septic on these sites yes okay what do you mean by that I I mean I I don't know the situation for the neighborhood to the east my assumption is there wasn't room for you know secondary septic site or something like that but what what about the neighborhood to the east allowed them to not be able to redo their septics and have to get the pressure sewer from Rogers I think it was originally developed oh it was originally developed that way okay pretty small okay I thought there was a the neor neighborhood was having a bunch of failing septics they couldn't sell as a result had to extend pressure sewer that direction in order to make those lots feasible yeah okay so that was proposed that way and or originally constructed that way uh yeah I I believe commissioner chair and B Commissioners I don't believe it was designed that way I think you're correct um Mr Price said that it was designed to have individual septics or Community septic and it failed and then Rogers had to come in and save us basically and say we have to connect up and then we had to then put a force main through that's what I was getting at correct that is exactly what happened again I don't remember if it's Community or individual I believe it was a community septic but that's understanding it makes sense Community CU it's really correct yeah I believe it was a community one and then again and it failed and it failed that's correct we're getting head nods from the audience that's accurate individ individual septics okay it was one it was one or the other all right that's exactly what I expected did cuz that's how it typically would go um which I don't know what's unique about this land that the septics to the East are would fail and not pass and and that this would be able to have you researched that do you know that well in septic would work on these sites individually and that's related to the soils I any number of things well the the way that you build them these days I mean like the septic is enormous you know that's when you got the 40,000 ft lot is is essentially what it is a large portion of that back backyard is going to be the two ponds I'm going to get these wrong I apologize but sort of the two system drain Fields M drain Fields thank you we're talking on half acre lots though not 40,000 these would be we would change you would have to go to the 40,000 foot got it so that would be 26 true or 28 some the number new unit count would go down Mark can go in front of the mic so we can hear you just want to make sure I'm sorry I I think that I I gave that to um Zach y that's fine I just want to make sure you're front of the mic so everyone can hear you that's why thank you so our our engineer has done it both ways okay but we again I I I thought I in talking with you know you guys and with Matt and with Rogers that we're solving a problem by having Water and Sewer put in because eventually everything will have to be on water and SE I don't know when that day will come but someday post 2050 was the plan I'm interested in the community input before I ask my questions okay any other questions for the applicant to to come on you guys are easy on me well oh we're not you back I want to hear what to say um so so uh you have anything else before we open the public hearing on this I I I'm sure well let's let's hear what everyone else to say okay so at uh 7:37 we will open the public hearing on this if you're interested in coming forward on on this project to step back to the audience oh yeah yep uh if anyone's interested in providing some put on this project please come forward just as a reminder we're we're limitting we're going to try to limit as close as we can to 3 minutes and talk very much so and uh and then state state your name and address please uh my name is Terry Kramer I live at 14281 Longdale Lane North I guess I don't understand whenever this comprehensive plan was constructed or developed why are we trying to LEAP ahead of what you had planned I mean it uh I I live in a really nice part of Dayton I love it there I moved here for specific reason to be in Dayton and I work in Rogers but you know I look at the comprehensive plan a couple years ago and I looked at where the development was going and I thought you know this is this looks good it looks like a good plan why don't we just stick to the pl and my other question or concern would be what are we going to do to Diamond Lake Road to improve it CU that thing has gotten 10 times worse than it was when I moved here 10 years ago I mean I I come off of longale L on to North Diamond Lake and at least three or four times a week I see an accident there there's just so much traffic it's really difficult to get out ground damond l so there's going to have to be some improvements in that regard too otherwise I don't see how this works if you stuff 53 homes in there so that's all I got to say thank you thank you good evening my name is Charles Wagner 17611 North Diamond Lake Road I live on Diamond Lake in that North Bay been living there since 19 1982 I absolutely love it there um The Diamond Lake Improvement Association which I'm a board member of has spent a lot of time and energy and money to clean up that Lake and with with the help of the city of course um I'm adamantly against this development and I I I would hope you would stay with the original plan to the 2040 plan and that's my opinion thank you thank you thank you thank you hi there I'm Jen Foley um I live at 18220 North Diamond Lake Road and we actually own 18150 North Diamond Lake Road so right across the road from the property um there's big concerns actually with the impact this is going to have on the area we have lived there for over 20 years and you know I when I look at our mission statement that we're here to promote a thriving Community to provide residents with a safe and pleasant place to live while prever preserving our rural character and con creating connections to our natural resources we're kind of Shifting the other way right now with what we're going with so going against the 2040 plan is really something that most of us in that area first of all we knew it was there when we moved in so when people um this will also go for just to speed this up for the next proposal as well for on Lake Laura um it's it's not something that's really wanted in the area nor do I think we can support it because there's already issues we see with our property with the development that's happened thank you thank you thank you thank you one of those sounds good hello I'm uh Ryan hobus I live at 17811 North Diamond Lake Road I'm uh two properties to the east of this development um I guess I am kind of concerned about the design as is I feel like we got a lot of properties on this um on this proposed development and really if you look at the other lots that are on the other side of it they're a lot bigger things like that lak Shore Lots do definitely look like they have been sized a little more appropriately but you also have um um a significant number of homes that look like standard City lots and if we're going to be building $2 million homes on those lots that's going to feel like you're in those neighborhoods that are in southern Plymouth right around why is that a senior high where it's giant mcmansions with uh you know 5T between the houses so definitely a very big concern on my part um the other thing that I wanted to bring up is North Diamond Lake Road um I've seen quite a few cars that come into my property in the winter time somebody kind of biffs it or does something um I have a line of trees right along the road and I've seen people go through those trees kind of go through my property land on the driveway um there's some significant concerns there and based on kind of from what I can approximate from that drawing you know there there could be people that actually have cars in their houses from you know the the speed and the snow and the way that is obviously you know that's something to work out in the details things like that um and then to if you know in The Proposal there is walking trails along there too um you know that's definitely another concern that you've got lots of cars you want to have people walking we're increasing the traffic on that road um yeah so I guess in conclusion I'm I feel like this definitely needs a lot of work and I would also vote to say push this back to you know 2040 or Beyond thank you thank you thank you um I'm Chris Parks I live in Dayton and I just have two quick comments on this address oh 14601 Thicket Lane Dayton um the one is 51 homes going on North Diamond Lake l Road you know you're probably talking 150 cars at that uh and speaking to the traffic on a lane I know the one on the east side if you're going to have entrances to that road is about where that Hill is there's a hill that comes down there and I know similar to where the police station is if you go farther to the east where it intersects outside of this picture but north of where the police station is there's accidents there all the time and there's people slamming on their brakes because you can't see the cars coming over the hill it's really not a safe area to have a significant amount of traffic that's going to be coming through there um so that's kind of my one one only appeal in terms of traffic the other thing 51 Lots in that area we looked at the house two lots down which is almost 20 acres and that sold for $800,000 just a few years ago so maybe you guys care about the price point I really don't care what the price point is on all these other homes but I think you know you're really unrealistic to think you're going to get $2 million when this mcmansion was less than a million just a few years ago so that's all I have thank you thank [Music] you hello uh Rob Paris 17441 13th Avenue North um so I've live around the bay there um lots of questions more than answers it seems like from this one um you know listen to Mr Dron I say that right I don't know but anyhow um it's yeah not attacking him personally or anything like that but I some of he seems like not to have a lot of the answers you know you had questions regarding septic and whatnot I know we had to switch over to city sewer we are well um and that was of course like you said to Roger had to come in and save us on that one um so I don't know it seems like he should have been you know more research on that and those questions um also other concerns with the Lots like you're saying $2 million houses what is that going to do to our tax base what you know is it going to raise our property values um so a lot of concerns there a lot of other same concerns that people already stated you know with the TR increased traffic on uh North ther Lake Road um so just a lot of more questions and answers on this one so I'd like to hear more going further thank you thank you good evening uh Ryan molon 12711 Cedarwood Court uh thank thanks for taking the time tonight to uh to look over this one um the two concerns I've got with the two that are kind of right here off of North Diamond Lake um the deviation from the current staging plan is already going to just be one major concern uh with uh making adjustments to the staging plan there's a lot of cost that goes into that to the city uh the orderly buildout of the city is based off of the staging plan and that plan has had a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of money put into it to uh to make sure that we have something that we can follow in order to kind of build that orderly build out of the city and maintain the services at a decent level across the city and this right here just kind of deviates pretty clearly from that plan since we're looking into the post 2050 area uh I think that brings up a bunch of concerns we have plenty of uh plenty of available uh land to build in the city that kind of falls in the current 2020 2030 staging areas and it's apparent from tonight's meeting that we've got plenty of um plenty of interest in building in some of those areas as well so I think it would just make more sense to kind of stick with that the other major concern I would have is once we start looking at taking a couple of these individual uh individual Arrangements like this and we start making comp plan adjustments on their behalf we kind of start setting a bit of a precedent then for future business that comes into some of these areas where if we decide to start turning those down and we use the comp plan as an excuse or as a reason to to deny those in the future this right here kind of sets a bit of a legal precedent for uh for somebody to come back upon the city and claim some sort of discrimination or or some uh some unfair treatment on that basis so I think those would be uh Fair concerns to take into consideration along with the increaseing traffic the water challenges and everything else that everyone's put up here tonight so appreciate your time thank you thank you hi um I'm Steph Riley I live at 17360 138 Avenue North and I know the traffic thing has already been repetitive but I just want to reiterate that um so when you're coming when you're on laale on the south side of North Diamond Lake Road in the winter there's already been a lot of concerns I've had to call the county a few times to have them push the snow back because when you're looking left um you can't see over the snow bank if you're in a sedan or smaller and so there was multiple times where I had to inch out into the intersection already and cars are going by and so I have a lot of concern with you know 51 units that could be 100 or more Vehicles if you have two people living there even teenage children so I have a lot of concerns about this going before there's any kind of plan for a controlled intersection there thank you thank you and Mr CH just for clarity we've had a couple residents 45 units not not 51 is what's existing sorry the neighborhood to the east anyone else anyone online on this one chair and members there is nobody online thank you all right if there is no one else we will close the public hearing at 7:50 um I guess just as a reminder this is a concept plan we do not need to make any motion motions tonight there's no approval tonight on this it's giving it's giving the the can some feedback on what what we as the the the Planning Commission would like to see moving forward there's no no action tonight that will be taken on this um so hopefully the applicant heard the feedback from the residents and the neighborhoods the neighbors nearby um I think Mark it's probably warranted to come back up we may have just a few questions or clarifications as we're working through this so uh Sarah do you want to start off sure um I am like the neighbors agree that we need to stick to the published plan of buildout because people buy properties based on that I bought my property based on that I looked to see where the development was coming in Dayton and I specifically bought property that was in 2040 or post 2050 because that was going to offer me a certain level of protection from development and there are other people in the audience who said that they made the exact same decision about when and why they bought so if we have this posted people make huge financial decisions based on that information to turn around and change it does not make sense that's my first concern second Beyond sewer and water is everything else that comes with development you need better roads you need better intersections you need to have more police you need to have more fire um you need fire stations closer you need schools closer you need Parks you need Trails all of that costs money we we can't as a city afford to do that everywhere all at once which is why we have a staged plan for development so that we can bring in the amenities as the population increases and go One Direction at a time I've only been on this commission for a short while and I've already had con heard concerns from people in existing little pocket subdivisions why isn't there a school by me why aren't there parks by my you know my kids can't get to the parks cuz they can't there's no Trails there's no way against these roads there aren't good sections cuz they're in these little pocket subdivisions that are all split apart from one another so it doesn't make sense to add another little pocket subdivision that's once again split from everybody else two um someone buying a $2 million house is going to expect a $2 million community and I love I live right to the um east of this Lake I do not live in a $2 million Community I have no desire to live in A2 million house Community most of the Neighbors in there area don't want to I don't like that's a different kind of Comm Community not that Dayton can't have it but let's you know put it where it belongs um and this is not that community so I I am opposed on all levels and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise so I will be against this no matter what so my next yeah sure or we could go we could go Le frog the other way you know I I agree with a lot of what Sarah said I think the one thing that the whole Community needs to keep in mind and I've been preaching this since I've been on this Planning Commission is our comp plans flat out wrong it says 100 homes a year through 2040 we haven't done we've done way more than that so the STA the staging plan is wrong however 2050 is still pretty far away meaning that whatever is 2030 is likely should be moved up whatever is 2040 likely should be moved up a little bit when we do our next stage plan because you you know I know not everyone in the room wants to hear this but growth also allows us to pay for Road upgrades and stuff like this so you know there's there's both sides to the story a little bit um but the question still comes back with regards to staging so I'm not even going to talk about the concept plan at this point I'm just going to talk about the staging with regard to staging I do feel that um well the biggest thing I want to hear a little bit from Nick and Peter because they're they're Engineers is uh I don't if we because I think each individual parcel can be looked at to be brought up in the staging I don't think we should just say we can never do it but I don't want it to come at a cost to the city and I'm concerned about the sewer pipe the list station and so that would be the biggest reason I'm not ready to probably support bringing in the current staging especially if Peter and Nick because they're Engineers echo my concerns about that cost yeah I'm also going to trust my civil engineering um counterparts here as well when it when it comes to the pipe um I think we heard enough from the the neighbors that uh this development is not the right time right place um it's a beautiful piece of land on lake property um someday it'll become a very nice development hopefully but uh right now this concept plan's very uninteresting to be quite honest it's if it's for $2 million homes just I mean it looks like it could be anywhere right just in open field not against a lake and you know again half acre lots with that expensive homes i' I'd like to see more right I mean if if that's really what this is what what what I've heard and I'm a little confused about is This MC mansion that are 5T apart that will never happen that that I I mean I I'm not sure how even that came up but that's nowhere near what will will it will look like I mean not even close that's fair but the concept plan doesn't represent that the concept plan shows we know what rectangles one after other is homes and you know no one wants to have you know especially in this sort of area where there's a lot of open land that or I mean really anywhere that you would ever you would ever consider putting them you know whatever you know Arizona where it's like basically zero lot line you know it's that that's that's it's it's it's so far from the truth that it's it's I don't know what to say that's fair but it's it's no different than the concept there no it's just so far from the truth but that's what that looks like yeah the the concept plan represents that that I mean that's where the idea came from is from the drawing that you provided so that's exactly what it represents um you know and and I'll chime in if if are are well wrapped up I mean I know I got it we're good but you know from from the engineering perspective it the orderly development I think is really important for a lot of reasons not just the sewer pipe the sewer pipe's expensive that cost is going to be borne by the property owners that purchase these Lots right has to be but it is expensive to push that over over to Rogers but more than that it the fact that that Force man is needed I think is is to me proof that it's too early for this development in this location there is a comprehensive sewer plan that would would serve this area in a more thought out process than pushing sewer and I say pushing because that's by force M pushing sewer over to Rogers and and even above and beyond the the sanitary sewer pipe the other parts of the infrastructure just aren't there as Sarah I think you said it really well um you know intersection improvements other roadway improvements North Diamond Lake Road being a County Road henen county has not had an opportunity to prepare to upgrade North Diamond Lake Road they've seen our comprehensive plan they know our push to go from south to North East to West and I mean I can't speak for them but quite frankly I think they can look at a map and understand this is quite a ways away um so the improvements to North Diamond Lake Road just aren't going to be there um and they won't be there for some time there's going to be a lot of other needs throughout the city that the countyy is looking at and is probably currently looking at and I just don't see that North D Lake Road would be able to get the funding that it needs to be upgraded in in a way that it needs to support a residential development like this and others in the area of talking about a precedent so you know no comment on how realistic 2 million doll is um for for a community like this I saw a lot of full basements and interior Lots you know I don't think $2 million houses like to look at the backyards of other $2 million houses but I think that's for you to figure out if if this were to go forward but I think from my perspective it's early soly you you do know that that I have said that that septic and and Wells so that would be like 26 or 28 Lots at 40,000 if if you went that direction septic and well yeah I mean if you guys are like Adam that doesn't address the infrastructure of not being ready to have development in this area personally that's my opinion I I think I think the comprehensive plan lays out orderly growth and and a lot of other other things of the comprehensive plan you know I was at a meeting here where the comprehensive plan in 2030 called for the bridge and walking paths into downtown downtown dayon downtown dayon and your community was pretty much against it and you guys have shelled that yeah they get updated every 10 years I I'm yeah I'm just you know I'm I'm saying and I'll I'll give you another example is the the Plymouth um credential building which wasn't supposed to be developed until 2040 and they came in and you know it wasn't just an office building for credential life is now going to be like you know huge residential and they've agreed to Plymouth has agreed to do that now again it's a different town I understand that but I'm just saying and I and I've talked with um a number of people even a former Chief of Staff to the governor that comprehensive plans are guidelines but things change and you know thing they they can be amended you know Susan Johnson at met Council said you know you just need to amend the the thing and and you know they would have to look at it and approve it and you know I think that's more of an administrative comment about how it moves forward just a thing I get that trying to go through the you you know people are saying I haven't done my homework I've done more homework on this than you could I did not say that so no no not you sir but but I'm just saying I've heard this and I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to address hold on one second can we cut the chatter in the background just to so that everyone is if you need to have a conversation you can step out in the hallway it's a little quieter out there thank you thanks Peter so I I I guess what what I what I see you know from a personal opinion is that is that you have this gem in your town and that is Diamond Lake and Diamond Lake is under utilize right now and it's I I'm not I don't know how you did your planning but I I think it was not perceived as the diamond that or the the the jewel that I I think it is and this you know we're taking this land and we needed 40 46 Lots at that much money to pay for the the water and sewer from Rogers so now if I don't have to pay for the water SE from Rogers you know that's a big number and to go down to to septics and Wells which again I'm not sure that you guys are for or against that no one's really said you know their opinion on that but then we would go down to like 26 or 28 Lots I for I forget Z Zach's got a a copy of that that plan that we we sort of ran around with uh initially so and we would you know so that would cut my costs a lot so I'm I'm okay you know if few guys are like well that 45 Lots is is too many but you know maybe 25 or 26 or whatever that number is with well and and Sewer makes more sense I'm I'm happy to comment on that quickly even though it's not proposed here I wouldn't be in support of septic on this site Rogers has already had to come and save the city's skin once you know if this if this area and the development does when it pushes from South to north and east to west if it takes till 2050 or uh John as you mentioned we're we're not quite even through the staging plan that we've got now if development slows and it's 2060 um and those septics start to fail and they have no alternate sites and they have no ability to get a new septic and we do need to have Rogers coming and save the day again I don't it seems like it was a mistake that or not a mistake but it was fool me once you know shame on me fool me twice or shame on you fool me you get it you can you can amend that in the note but I I don't necessarily think that you know going to septic at least changes my opinion and and I'm really just hitting on item number one but if we hit item number two plat design and connectivity there isn't any connectivity here there's connectivity to the lake but it's exclusive connectivity to the lake um you know it's it's a private Community really that that circles in on itself doesn't provide any future connectivity to um additional growth or additional developments adjacent to it and around it um no parks and trails proposed I don't see any Trails proposed on it either but so we we um we from this one from this gentleman and from this gentleman and then somebody said well we would like to have a road come down and and kind of go so that people could could drive by the lake or near the lake and you know this gentleman wouldn't allow it at all I mean he would sue you he's the current property owner though po properties change hands and they sell I get it I get it but I'm just saying feel like what You' have the the thing that You' have to do is is you know I maybe a long time ago would have been said okay we're going to create Lake of the Isles or or you know Lake Harriet and and put a road around it and made that decision you know I think decades ago and then put walking trails and biking trails and and and whatsoever but now you have all these land owners that you're going to have to you know really claim the land from them and how are you going to get how are you going to get the land well yeah welcome to Dayton that's exists everywhere that that's our challenge of expanding roads and everywhere so I'm not but I'm saying that's the challenge for you to figure out not us on this particular property on understand but see I'm only like a section I you know we can maybe agree or disagree on something but you have to get you know everybody else in fact like this area here isn't so good for the the shoreline it's read and and I'm not even sure that there's a doctor someone told me that there is there there's one in the picture it's it's not it's not that pretty uh I I I think just so so the Planning Commission is making some recommendations or comments based on based on the the concept plan um what you've heard so far is we're not really in favor of changing our staging area and that's I think that's that's something to be noted I guess I'm I'm going to go out on a limb and say I and Nick I might disagree with you just from uh the septic side if if there's a way to make it work it it definitely needs some research on that and I I'm not I I deal with I deal with uh sanitary but not septic systems I don't design SE either sanitary pipe so I'm I I but um I I would be open to some you know if you were to subdivide this lot into some larger plots that could be ghost platted for future development when we do get the infrastructure in that's kind of where my mindset is um I'm thinking of it and I'm going to bring this up in the next in the next one as well um there's a neighborhood in Maple Grove called appoa Woods it was built with like 2 and 1/2 to 4 acre lots originally I know I know the city I I believe all of it is on sewer and water but I'm not 100% sure and as as the neighbors around them have turned into like my neighborhood lenar and and you know people on these what were 2 and A2 acre 5 acre lots are now selling off a half acre and they're still building you know really nice homes and the people people see the investment almost like you're seeing the investment in your property they're seeing the investment I can buy a 20 acre lot or not a 20 acre I can buy a 4 acre lot now raise my kids on that and then in 20 years I can subdivide it and make a little bit more money in the future so they're seeing that or they're seeing that there and and doing it there so I I this concept to me it doesn't doesn't make me want to change our staging area and that's that's the feedback I want to give is I don't mind developing here it's just this does not excite me is is that fair to say no and and I I'll tell you that that um and I talked with the other gentleman here in in the room and I've I probably have have talked with 60 to 70 professionals that you know have an opinion on these things and every one of us it's 100% are thinking that you're giving Dayton you know you know basically a a you know you're increasing everyone's property value without them having to do anything you're giving them more money you you're you're do you know you're paying for everything which I know I have to anyways because you know it's it's a development and every every there isn't a a uh there isn't a statement that has been said tonight that that one of these 60 or 70 people haven't commented on and don't agree with they they they think that you're you're getting you know not a Christmas present but you're getting a gift good for them um not everyone wants to exploit our natural resources as much as humanly possible um not everyone wants their property values to increase um not everyone is is looking to make as much money as humanly possible um and our role is not to ensure individual Property Owners or Builders or developers make as much money as humanly possible our role is to make sure that our community and our city um is the best for everybody in the entire city and in the entire community and that our decisions are based on everybody and not just individuals no Sarah you're absolutely right and I'm not making any of these decisions based upon um but the economics of of getting the water and sewer which you know I think these gentlemen agree is probably needed and I guess I I think it's needed to but to get to pay for the water and sewer the home home prices have to be taxed but that would only give Water and Sewer to your development that would not in any way shape or form help the city of Dayton get sewer and water to that overall region so you're not really helping anyone but your development well so no no that's not correct because you could you you could make an arrangement between uh Rogers and and could you Happ I think it's pretty clear that I am because the 51 homes that are currently serviced by Rogers is that's not getting expanded you have to bring a whole new one in for this small community so I think it kind of looks and I'm not an engineer from the sewer perspective you're correct water M you know once it goes past a property you you can you can find a way to add on a but from a sewer if it's you're not doing us any you're just doing yourself a favor so Mark so I was going to hold off a little bit saying this but go for it so I'm a I'm a commercial real estate appraiser I do lots of subdivision appraisals lots of them um including to for the guys that would potentially buy your homes I honestly think we're saving you not letting you do that plan if you need to say sell those homes for $2 million to to cover the cost of the sewer coming in which I get because I it's going to be expensive with a lift station um it's not it's just it's just not that I tell you what surprises me is is that um you're one of the only persons that I've got push back on I am not I I am not the the the cud holes Charles cud Holmes is going to take the property from me and then sell the homes and then make their profit on the homes yeah there willing to take that risk and they're one of the best home I communicate with those guys regularly they're one of the best home I know what they charge for other homes I'll just say in Eden Prairie they they they aren't charging that in you know with the bluff view of the river that's what their top dollar is so that's what I'm trying I'm just I'm not trying to arue with you I'm the president the president of cut Holmes and I have had numerous conversations yeah well I'm just looking at the sale and I I believe me I appreciate I appreciate I just wanted to try to but I'm just telling you that the the man at the top is willing to willing to sign an agreement with me so the one question I want to point out about your concept plan if you present this to the council and maybe the council gets excited about water or excuse me private septics if you kept saying 40,000 foot lots and I guess I'm going to look back to staff a little bit but I think they have to be bigger even if you do that like a minimum of two and a half acres probably because you need proof of two septic systems you need your home and so if you go that route our engineers think you need to I think that we talked with these I think you need to plan at least 2 and a half acres and you should Circle back with staff to make sure because that way you don't go down a path that people say you can't do that either um okay does the commission have any more comments on this concept plan or Direction I I think we've made it fairly clear yeah I would I would like to say you know parks and trails I think that's clearly missing from from what we've seen here you know the lake it's a public Lake L public enjoyment of the lake I think needs to be a component of a development I don't see any Trails here I see a private road down to a private dock um so that's my comment with with respect to the other items that are on the screen there yeah usually concept plans do show amenities for the neighborhood right well multitude of things right and this concept plan just doesn't show that so if you do come back with another iteration I would come with amenities and what makes this neighborhood special you know again I I have to I I I really have to be adamant about this that if I put a trail here it's it's not not saying it to put a trail on the wall no no let me please this guy is not going to let you continue on and this person who just bought it I don't know their answer or not I almost going to say that if you just bought it and all of a sudden I come by and say by the way I think the city is going to want you to put a trail in you know where does the trail go and it doesn't even necessarily have to be along the lake it's it's it's just the amenities within within the developments what if you what if you put that axis in the middle and and make it a little wider and provide like a a a neighborhood park on the lake that allows better access to everybody in a little beach or you know something right you have the public access I'm not yeah I'm not saying boat access I'm just saying access for all those folks to to make it a a a a feature in in the development as opposed to just being a little road off to the side to get to 30 docks like make it a feature make it like a public you know for this neighborhood make it a space that's like you know something unique can I ask how many how many of the current residents you ask for them to put Parkland on their property I'm not asking I'm I'm not asking for a public Parkland I'm saying public as in this neighborhood like give the residents of this neighborhood a special spot on the lake for all the people that aren't on the lake well that's that's this whole this whole thing I know I don't think we're under we're not talking the same thing here well you've got I don't know how big this this piece of property but yeah there will be you know obviously there's no parking down but you you don't but you walk down there agree you can't see the lake from from the road right like so if you the land the land goes slightly up from the road understood and then on the landscaping and trees and all that then I'm just telling you the general the way it is now it's slightly up flat and then over yeah I I I would concur with that you know a Tot Lot or something which I think staff had mentioned was planned for this area would look great on that on that piece of land that you got the private road that's going to be used twice a year by each residents one to put their boat in and one to take their boat out um you know a Tot Lot in that area that provides um you know some visuals some Overlook of the lake that yeah there could be somebody from the public that might want to visit that Tot Lot maybe there's a kayak launch um where we can get people in their kayaks and their paddle boards to enjoy the water uh and not just catered to you know Mastercraft surf I'm not against that but I mean I'm just I I I wonder why I'm forced to do it and no one else in the city um actually every development that comes forward we request something very similar yeah so it it's I believe it's also part of our part y it's part of the process I'm actually suggesting use less land because you're using the largest piece of land to get to the lake if you just pushed splayed the houses out in the middle put it in the middle so that as you're driving on the road you get to a point in the road where you're like oh there's the lake here's a little Park there's a little playground there's CU these houses are going to have kids right you know here's a shelter that you can have a birthday party at like for these residents right doesn't mean that I'm going to come from the other side of Dayton to come hang out there I'm just saying what makes this neighborhood special for the people that you're building this for and maybe the community can use it m but right now the road's an afterthought right it's just off to the side just to get to your dock it's not an amenity so yeah I mean yeah you're using a lot of land to do that so I guess do we have any other comments that we haven't no brought up I'm good I'm good all right so move on there's no action needed on this correct so the the comments will be summarized for the council we we have council members in here that will go to the count City Council on Tuesday June 25th okay great thank you guys thank you all right next up item uh 8D concept plan Shany parcel thank you Mr chair uh so this is a concept plan for the Shany oh oh wait a second here please candy bar time yeah I was just thinking I got to hit some sugar after that okay this is a concept plan for the Shany parcel uh there's not a structure on the property so we don't have an address and that is why I'm calling it 18xxx North Diamond Lake Road uh generally I'll just refer to this this is the northwest corner of uh Laura lake so again similar to the last project this is a concept plan it is the very beginning of the design for development there's no formal approval or denial of it um it's just recommendations and comments from the Planning Commission that are then forwarded the council Council goes through the same exercise um one one commissioner could say one thing and another commercial could say the exact opposite okay um re applications that will be needed for this that that I can figure out is first being a comprehensive plan Amendment a zoning map Amendment and preliminary final plan so similar to the last project the comprehensive plan Amendment would be to um take this out of the uh guided sewer plan so the this project is intended to be for well and septic uh the comprehensive plan plans it to be uh for sewer in the post 2050 staging area for zoning map Amendment uh currently it is zone A1 agriculture cult Al um it would need to be reson to something else and so that something else possibly does not exist in our code uh and then I'll get into that a little bit further and then third item would be the preliminary and final plant uh for the comprehensive plan and just to to explain how we've got here this is more specific because in this project it's intended to be a septic whereas the previous project was for sewer um the Met Council assigns a I'm going to call it a category for every Community within the the seven County Metro so the category that's been assigned to Dayton is an emerging Suburban Edge Community it is attended that all undeveloped areas within Dayton it will be served by sewer at some point in the future and in order to pay for that um there needs to be an average density of three units per acre um so the map here you know it's hard to see here but uh Dayton is shown in in the white and then we have other communities are of different color and I can't read this but maybe you guys can um these are just kind of the general categories so I'm I'm expecting one of the questions would be is why does Dayton have to have three units per acre and I'm going to say it's just because of the location that we are at in comparison to other communities uh Ramsay is the same as what we are uh Rogers is kind of split half and half or the eastern half is also three units per acre and the Western half is outside of the Metropolitan Urban Services area so that's going to be rural subject development um what does the Met Council allow uh prior to sewer being available and the answer is 10 acre lots such that um they could be subdivided at in the future once sewer is available so the Peters comment in the last case of um ghost planting but still the key here is 10 acre lots um Dayton city code is more restrictive for that so within our A1 agricultural District the minimum lot size is 40 acres and the intent here is to protect Farmland uh within the comprehensive plan um although much of Dayton is zoned for A1 agricultural obviously not all A1 land is farmed uh there's a number of areas within the city that is not practical to farm just because of the topography or uh soil conditions or any number of of different reasons um Northwest Dayton much of Northwest Dayton I would say is within this category there's a whole lot of topography as well as white lines as what you can see in the topography uh map here um so I had a question the last slide um should these areas be allowed to subdivide into Lots less than 40 acres and if yes how do we do that so there's a few options uh the first option is to identify areas where sewer and water is Not Practical uh due to natural barriers such as topography or Wetlands um not just because of the cost of it so there's got to be more to more to it than just cost uh second item is to decide if it's in the city's best interest for the areas to be well and septic versus to just be left undeveloped uh third is to decide on the type of development and I'm putting an example is it 10 acre lots or is it 2 acre lots um and then fourth item is to amend the comprehensive plan to allow these types of development whatever that type of development is um or to wait until you when I say change the 240 comprehensive plan this is the plan that we're currently under or to wait until we adopt the 2050 compreh ensive plan um the way that as Nick had mentioned is the comprehensive plan is a 20-year vision of how the city is going to develop um it it's an educated guess um and for that reason we we amend it every 10 years uh the next 10e cycle we're approaching uh we'll start working well we we've had conversations of what we want to do for 2050 but the real work will begin in 2026 to 2028 um critical issues with this is the staging plan of uh if to remove this property out of the plan sewer area um and the second item does may or may not apply uh if the blue stone property were approved with sewer um that would open up the opportunity for this project to also have sewer uh as far as parks and trails go uh within the comprehensive plan there's a chapter on parks and trails which identifies uh a neighborhood park on the North Area or I'll call it the North shore of Lake Laura as well as a trail that goes around the lake um Street access and uh I'll get into that a little bit in a second once I have a better map um and then conservation so the 2040 let me back up the 2030 comprehensive plan identifies a number of uh Greenway areas um and that's used as a reference in the 2040 plan where there are Greenway areas there should be a conservation plan unit development uh this property does is within a Greenway area which is generally um covers the wetlands and the area around Lake Florida so and what does that mean is it the intent is that there's more open space or more green space or just the preservation of a natural area should be in consideration as this project is designed um going back to streets uh what is proposed is a connection Road between North Diamond Lake Road in Thicket Lane thi yeah Thicket Lane Colac that's off the page here there is existing RightWay that connects with the zanthus although there's a whole lot of topography that makes it may make it difficult to actually construct a road uh we've had conversations or staff has had conversations with henen County as far as what do they think of the road access uh one suggestion that the county had is if there's a possibility of instead of connecting to North Diamond Lake Road of connecting to Brockton um at at some point um and these are uh you I'll say that the Road intersection study does need to be considered more by henen County so that was kind of a a very brief conversation with the county um what else yeah I talked longer than I thought I would so all right thank you thank you any questions for staff on this one oh one point I forgot to talk about lot sizes so lot SI most important thing so this is4 acre property I believe uh the plant that's shown is 13 lots that range from about 3 acres to 24 ACR I believe about three and a half acres is our smallest 3.3 a little bit over and then our largest is 24.1 most are about four or five acres a good majority of them are above five but uh due to the topography and wetlands it it varies quite a bit Yeah I have a question for staff as far as if we went down the route of getting an A3 District so um for 10 acre lots we would also I would assume slash hope um well I guess I have a question would we also make sure that our various ordinances regarding outbuildings and animal units is adjusted accordingly for the A3 unit or would that like what would the follow-up there be and then what happens to other properties that are currently zoned A1 or A2 but fall in that 10 acre kind of would they be switched over to the A3 or would they stay with their current zoning of A1 th those are all great questions that I would ask the Planning Commission so yeah it depends okay we'd figure it out those are my questions yeah I think every property is a little unique that it's kind of a general question of whether all a1s become A3 it' have to be but that would be a question of how easy is it to go from A1 to a32 like in particular in an area where maybe we don't want A3 meaning we we truly want Steward development at some point in time yeah I'll I could take that question yeah so you you have they' have to request to go to a new zoning District they're we're not going to we can't force a new zoning District upon a property so but a resident could choose that if they wanted but we it would automatically by creating this we wouldn't automatically be forcing people who are currently A1 into a different Zone correct but that would give them the option if they wanted to do um again but that's up to again commissioner Broan made the point that if they didn't want or they wanted to but we said no because of XYZ reason there'd be why we'd say know okay and I think if if I recall anything that is existing and we change it their grandfather did meaning if we if we did create an A3 and they had out buildings and we didn't we wanted smaller ones here they would be grandfathered in with what they have okay um our rules on out buildings are very generous so whether whether that was purposeful or Not So within the egg districts it's based on the impervious surface area 10% so the out it was more the animal units I was concerned about than the than the out buildings so but that would be a different we would deal with that as a separate issue yeah okay any other questions for staff before we want the applicant uh has staff really looked at the long-term viability of this area if it became sew like is that connection to Thicket Lane important for that as far as the north side of Laurel Lake um have you guys kind of looked into that like just to give us some advice on how to maybe view some of this stuff in the long term you're talking the connection to Thicket for yeah I I was thinking of if the connection to Thicket Lane especially for the stuff to the east everything was connected and give multiple ways into the neighborhood oh for connectivity I would say the the two connections would be preferred one to North Diamond Lake Road one to Thicket lane or alternatively potentially to to Brockton in L of one of those yeah so at some point in time that road that they have proposed here would you'd want it to connect the thicket Lane I mean I I get it there's a valley there I'm trying to understand is if the desire is there for the future development to the it's proposed as a connection um as proposed it has that connection and and I would say yes we would want two connections all right would you like name and add and I'm Zach Brown with BK Land Development 13311 Arrowwood Lane North Dayton Minnesota tell us a little bit more about your project or so we I'm a I I recently did Pine View Meadows in Dayton a few years back and the feedback was we don't want a bunch of high density we want more rural Dayton is live the difference we want the the rural stuff right so after all the push back we got on that even though we got it through and it was a successful neighborhood um we started to look at different options for Dayton and what could be a good fit a lot of people around here would like to have larger Lots that's part of the reason they mooved to this community uh myself being one of them born in Brad and Dayton grew up here I also would like to have a little more Elbow Room and not be in a city lot um I found that in my search for another lot does not exist we have two neighborhoods we have Thicket and birkshire they were the only two neighborhoods that have it and none of those people want to sell at all for good reason um so we're trying to extend Thicket and continue on with what they have U very nice properties larger Lots great space for you know raising a family having a little space for maybe a pool or out building stuff like that it's really hard to do that on these smaller Lots especially with these National Builders they cram them in as tight as they can and so we thought this would be a great spot and we sought out a piece that would not impede on future growth because of the topography this does not look like a great spot for future growth it is quite uh quite wild out there if you ever make a site visit uh beautiful and it'd be great for for State Lots like we're proposing but very very not suitable for sewer and water I had a septic company come out to do soil borings to make sure we had primary and secondary suitable locations on each lot they were able to find them but it was tough increasing the density would likely it would likely increase the chance that we won't have suitable location for primary and secondary on all the Lots if we increase the density we would have liked to have a higher density City with smaller Lots it's just with the wetlands and topography and the Rolling Hills this was kind of the best we could do and I think that it would be a really good thing that people in Dayton want and I from some of the previous conversations from the previous applicant some of the concerns were traffic If This Were to be sewer and watered you'd have over 220 homes out here someday which would definitely have a huge impact I think putting the 13 homes in and you know down the road if something else happens that's that's that but uh this is going to be the most minimal impact and the most uh Prime use of the land the way it sits and we're going to have a smaller impact on the ecosystems and all the natural topography the wetlands the animals that live there aren't going to be displaced we would literally be talking about carving in a roadway and then letting all the private homeowners create their own little Oasis with minimal impact to the ecosystem cuz there is a ton of wetlands deer Fox owls I mean when I was out there walking around with my engineers I couldn't tell you how many Eagles nests I saw and with the greenway overlay that's on here as John mentioned it would be almost impossible to sewer and water this site and some of the manholes out here if you did sewer and water would be over 60 foot deep which is just unattainable and I'm not going to I mean my my I had eptic out to look for primary and secondary locations on each each lot and his his actual remarks to me were man this soil is peanut butter it's not suitable it's not suitable for for sewer and water in my opinion as a developer any questions for the applicant if we if our only option was to do 10 acre lots because of met Council issues would you still be willing to move forward with 10 acre lots you'd have less of them then or is that or or is that a deal breaker it would financially ruin the deal okay I mean it's already it's a very expensive project it would financially ruin it okay that was my question y this is kind of a question for maybe staff as well as yourself but if we went down the rural estate road we know that the me Council doesn't necessarily want to approve that right but everything you just said is what we need to tell them at Council of why it's not suited for water and sewer and to me that's the preferable route versus A3 but I get there's risk involved with the Met Council just deny bu in it because we're not one for 10 um so my I guess my question to staff is if we who prepares this information to present them met council is it yourselves the applicant combination assuming that the applicant got approval for some for this current design let's just say this current design so it would be essentially be a staff report for a comprehensive plan amendment that goes through the Planning Commission gets approved by the city council and then sent over to the uh met C Council so what they're going to what they would receive is the city council packet yep and so in there is going to have all the information about the soils and our Logic for yep requesting the re whether you know that's the risk everyone's going to take of whether they approve it or not but to me that's the preferable route instead of trying to get creative with A3 but I recognize there's a risk so in when we're referring to the A3 District so that that's a zoning District that's does not exist so we have the A1 District which is 1 per 40 uh you know for the purpose purposes of this we're talking about an A3 District that would be 1 per 10 or one one home per 10 acres and I guess my thoughts the long term if they if this goes forward we're ghost platting and doing all this creative stuff to appease them at Council but it's never going to happen it's going to be this for it' be up to the property owners if they wanted to develop and you know as the and the soils prevent them and the feasibility on a oneop basis the feasibility become issues for them even correct if you have a property owner with 10 acres and they want to sell a couple of lots you still have to get sewer and it's not feasible to get it for those two lots it's it's got to be a lot more than that I don't know if there's any Community feedback I'd like to I would yeah before I have my own comments all right thank you at this time uh 8:37 we will open uh open the public hearing for the concept plan anyone who'd like to give some feedback on this one 65 years and I haven't been in front of twice aren't you just happy how they set it up so you be careful that's how Sarah got up here I came two meetings in a row and now look so my name is ter Cramer I live at One 4281 laale Lane I have a piece of property that adjoins this property on the East boundary of the development north of Laura Lake and you know I think this gentleman did a fine job of presenting and and I understand we got to grow and and listening to him talk compared to the other day was a pleasure so but uh that said I bought that property put the same thing in mind that I said before I looked at the plan and thought yeah this makes sense I'll be long gone by the time they get to this and uh the property's Farmland primarily it's got some Wetlands on it it uh is farmed by the guy that's always farmed it I have no intention of never not farming it I mean when I bought the property I was looking for the biggest buffer I could get between me and everything else I'm also like to hunt although I don't hunt hunt this property there's about eight or nine kids from Rogers and and Dayton at are high school age they don't get an opportunity to hunt anywhere else and one of them came to me one day and said you know I can I get permission to hunt your property um you know I know how hard it is to find a place to hunt nowadays it's tough so and it's good to see these young days off Hunting and not doing some of the other things that happen so that's kind of my story I'm I'm uh obviously against it it would change the the flow of animals and critters and whatnot out there so that's the only reason why I'd be against it is to preserve as much of that Wildlife thank you thank you hi my name is Jonathan biani I'm here on behalf of my my mother Lisa biani uh 19400 141st Avenue North uh Rogers um one adjacent to this property here um the main reason I'm here today is uh they developed the property across the street from her a few years back and there was an easement on her property that um basically directed all the water flow from across the street onto our property to the pond that's on the edge there um her secondary septic tank now is dangerously close to being underwater um the addition of any more water to the area would basically put her secondary septic under under underwater and make it INF feasible um it would affect the viability of her house giving that her first one would fail um I dug in to the city ordinances and um the concept plan here and I think mainly there are protections inside the Dayton ordinances that would say that they can't add storm water to that area so any plan that they provide here I to be honest I'm not quite sure why we're here at this point because there's so little information in the plans provided it's just that general idea but I would want to make it abundant clear that you know we are fully planning to protect that piece you know through civil action if need be um the second concern I have is obviously there is a ton of wet land back there it looks like that is on the dnr's list um when I run the calculations and I I do work in development I don't quite see them getting the setbacks on a few of those pieces of the property that they're claiming they're going to be able to do um and then finally they talk about all this Wildlife back there but I couldn't find any record of an actual environmental like impact study being done or anything it's just their opinion of what they've seen back there and how they're not going to affect the surrounding area but um I I don't quite fully believe that until I actually see some real data so at this point I think I mostly have questions and I just want to make sure that we're following the Dual of diligence and the ordinances that you guys have and that's that's it thank you and just to clarify you're representing the property in the lower left corner right right there with that that's the wet land that is kind of this is increased in size with the development here they're basically channeling all that water here secondary septic spot it's right on the edge there gotcha thank you thank you anyone else here for for this property hey good evening my name's Jill Kelly I live on Lake Laura I've been there for 49 years so I can tell you everything about what goes on back there there's no Eagles Nest um my only concerns are I would imagine they're going to build high price point homes pretty much like Thicket Hills I would imagine um big concern is that they are Price Point Homes and I would imagine they have to be for full siiz lots um traffic traffic's bad there I can't pull out of my driveway without looking back and forth two three times to make sure no one's coming you can't see from from the from the West there's a rise in the hill right in front of this property right here and this is going to increase the traffic there coming out of there they need I would think turn Lanes if anything like they've done on Brockton for those developments down there to get people off the road to turn or you're going to have big problems um the lake uh there's no control of the uh water level of lake anymore Over The Last 5 Years due to the farmers driving through the back end of the lake back there they've caved in the Culvert so the water has to get another 2 ft higher and go over a hump back there um that should be addressed even aside from any of this crap uh a couple years ago Han County was over on the other side of uh of North Diamond Lake Road digging in the ditch in front of Powell's place there the uh Ford guy because the water wasn't draining the reason the water isn't draining is because the lake level is 2 ft higher than it's been in the last normally um it's two it's the coverboard is completely caved in that there's no nothing nothing goes through it anymore the county put a a new cul in underneath uh North Diamond Lake Road and they put that covert in above the old cover so the water on that side of the road is all is now is uh probably 2T higher than it was in the old days I lived since that since it was gravel that was gravel in front of my house there in 75 it wasn't until I don't know maybe in the 80s when they redid that road there um as far as uh you know septic back there I don't know if you guys or any I don't think any of you guys are old enough to remember when they scraped all the dirt off that back there they scraped it all off to cap off the dump up in uh um uh an NOA and my understanding is you can't put septics on dirt that's been Disturbed like that scraped off all the top soil gone it's all clay back there and when they did it they fenced off an area if someone wanted to build back there that they didn't disturb for a septic and so I don't know what the I think some of you guys are septic guys I think aren't you no no swer guys yeah SE gu no septic that was a big conversation when they when they scraped all that dirt off I took like 250,000 yards of dirt off of there I mean they hauled dirt out of there for months with u um belly dumps it was a big deal and took it all up and capped off that dump up there in um Martha boka yeah and uh it was a big conversation when they did it that if someone wanted to do something back there that the ground wouldn't perk so they they're talking septics back there you're talking Mound systems there there was only one spot that was undisturbed back there on that um other than over on the on that point over there they didn't touch any dirt over there it was all the stuff directly behind me there you know where I'm at right there yep yeah everything behind me that they dropped that hill behind me 30 ft it was 30 ft higher is this you on the No No next one Jo Joe's on the right side of the easement yeah yeah that hill behind me was 30 feet higher and they Dr that's how much dirt they took out of there I mean it changed I mean you guys think of CRA but changed the climate you know down down where I live yeah it did really did and uh so I really don't have any problems with developing I just think there's there's concerns there you know as far as traffic and uh um price points you know I haven't heard what what what kind of houses they're talking about building or the price of the Lots or anything you know I don't even know what the land was for sale for I mean but I mean you can't uh I would imagine it would be like Thicket Hills and everything back there is a million bucks plus you know 2 million 2 and a half million biter back there he's with all his land and everything's probably 4 million you know so I I would imagine this would be the same type thing but the traffic is a big deal and um and the lake level they're going to have to put it where they're talking that road of course they're going to have to put a culbert you still got to put a culbert right there at the corner of the lake where the old culbert used to be and the culbert that was there is prob you know was probably you know like I said I've been there just under 50 years so and that cul was it wasn't in the best shape when I bought the place so it's probably you know 60 70 maybe who knows maybe 100 years I don't it was only a 12in culter but it did keep the lake level I'd have to go back there occasionally and dig the debris out of it it would get plugged up but uh the lake would drop right now the lakes with all this rain it came up the other day it came up 8 Ines the other night one night I got water up in the yard which it's the highest it's ever been in 49 years I can I can see that on the imagery um I I I don't want to cut you off cuz cuz uh this is a a big impact to you um but I think I think we've got the just of what what your concerns are so thank you than you thank you thank coming thanks um anyone else on this development I'll bring you back up in a yeah if there's anyone else on this development otherwise I'll bring you back up um so at 8:50 we are going to close the public in um well I'm happy to show where the eagle nests are if anyone wants to know uh it's 104 Acres it's pretty big chunk so the guy that lives south of the lake probably won't see the stuff on the far north side but that's not the point here no big no big deal not the point we're not worried about the Eagles well we are but I'm just saying there's a ton of are there there seems to be some concern about the impact the water we will have no impact from there's not a house being proposed that's within like 600 feet of it uh there is not any impact to the traffic that's going to be any greater than if this is sewer and watered by post 2050 which is going to be over 220 homes the impact is going to be far greater by that this is the minimalist impact that's going to happen unless it remains Farmland forever which obviously won't happen um plenty of woodlands and everything on the north where there is tons of ecosystems that would be completely devastated if this is sewer and watered someday because you're going to have to flatten this site into a s field to make the sewer and water work so the impact would be massive if you sewer and watered it um this is the least impactful route especially with the gentleman that said he lives where the easement is that the city owns we don't have enough space for a RightWay there so that easement is not really going to work we would have to get grading easements from both Neighbors on each side because we're going to have to use up some of their land and from the sounds of what I just heard that's not going to happen um so this is probably the best use for this property unless it just stays Farmland forever um that's that's what I would say the traffic impact is going to be the most minimal this way the impact to the environment is going to be the most minimal and the impact of the lake will be zero we're not we don't have anything even close to the lake we're not even doing any work close to the lake it's going to be very far off there's one section of the roadway where we'll have dual silk fence during grading we're going to have to do plenty of mitigation to make sure we're not impacting the lake um this is the least impactful route for the res residents around it that don't want to have huge development and this is the most logical use for this land that's what I would say any any further questions or move into discussion no I had a good good time to discuss amongst ourselves thank you thank you Nick we'll go you this time we'll start opinion faster I I do think this is the lowest impact that this area Could See Without just not developing it um an extension of Thicket makes sense um looking at the Contours I can see how sewer and Sewer in this area water may be fine uh depth could you know be an issue and up up and down uh but the Contours on this property are are significant getting sewer through this property to it might be easy through it would be the the primary challenge I think staff did have a comment in the engineering memo at the North portion of the site just didn't even look feasible for SE um so you know we're talking that you've got half of this uh proposed 13 Lots can't be sewered um from that standpoint you know I can see the reasonableness um to this concept um I we've heard a lot from existing residents that this this rural character doesn't really exist and if if those city services that are coming from the south to the North and the East to the West just would not go through this parcel it would go past this parcel I've got less concerns about this being too early from like a um utilities standpoint also from the traffic standpoint it is 13 Lots there's not a ton of traffic generation that comes off of 13 Lots but it's along a County Road hennipen County would have a say in whether turn turn lanes are needed or or intersection improvements or anything like that would be needed through there I just I want to correct you on one thing there it while it is 13 Lots on this development it connects thicked Hills now to North dond Lake and that's how many Lots how many Lots is that I but it like a t it's going to drive a little bit more it's 11 yeah so it's it's going to drive maybe potentially 23 but who knows people might go the other way too yeah I just don't you know I I don't I don't see how this is kind of smack dab in an area that would have 200 plus homes on this property it seems like the 200 homes isn't taken into consideration all the wetlands of course yeah and there's tons of wetlands here um that it would make it difficult to to even grade it to I don't know 40 ohms to be honest with you 50 I mean a lot of dirt that would need to get moved and you've got wetlands and Wetland setbacks and buffers and impacts to those items that you know to me it feels is like kind of the The Limited impact on this area and I don't know that it necessarily styes the growth plan do you have any opinion on the A3 versus R re or is it kind of just just not really does re remove it from our met Council density density CS it is so the re rural the state is has a minimum lot size of two acres it's intended for areas that are where there's existing development so um this would be a little bit of a it's easy to justify on the North section um it's a little bit of a stretch on the south side but is one property owner too it is yeah so so from just so this is clear to to folks in the room listening the re our our average density calculation is is three units per acre as we develop re reduces our developable Acres so that these properties don't have to develop at that rate or aren't calculated as part of our overall housing rate when we look at development so it in in a sense the re actually helps our density somewhat stay lower yeah so the more I should say the less density in the north part of dayon means the more density in the South part of Dayton well whatever we lose on this parcel we because it's A3 we have to make up somewhere else but if it's re we don't have to uh no no if it's re it's out of the Kel re it's out of the Cel does help it so re would actually help our density calculations as a city so we don't have to put up a town another extra density somewhere else I guess chair you are correct the one thing is that we have to get re approved by the Met Council which is the one yep and so so I I think that's where I'm leaning on this is if we do go forward with this we do it as re which helps our density calculations elsewhere May Council has stated they will not approve any more re for this city even with correct which is what yeah even with all the potential conditions and reports we can send them let's hope that changes it but don't think they're going to but I'm going to guess yeah unfortunately I mean I think there's a compelling argument for it but I'm not M counsel yeah I I also work in a community that's beyond the Clause of that Council any other thoughts on this one I mean I agree that uh this is once it is developed this is the best best version of development that this property could ever get so I agree there um I I I still feel um we should go south north but 13 is not the same as 51 or 45 sorry um also I felt I mean I am not adamantly opposed how would I'll say that I am not adamantly opposed I could be convinced um I'm still not a big fan of of not following our stage plan but um this isn't because it's not sewer and water it's septic and so really we don't have to like it's more about yeah I'm I'm just not as I'm not as concerned I I think if you buy the argument that it would not be sewered because of the topography issues then that's kind of where I was going to is it it it never it falls a little bit outside of that discussion for me at least there's still transportation components and stuff that AR aren't related to that but yeah um um and I I and though yes it would add a few there there would be more people in the area it would not be as many people in the area and it's not as exploitive um which I appreciate uh trying to um protect our Wetlands instead of exploiting our natural resources so I do I appreciate that um yeah I think I'm kind of with one of the other people who came I would like to see more like more about like the environmental impacts you know like I would want more information I'm not against but I'm also not like happy and and that's the beauty that this is concept plan right you know type of feedback that I think they're looking for and and hopefully they can you know make changes that would change your opinion yeah I I'd agree e a lot of what's been said here I think stud more study is needed whether it's traffic imp study at that intersection uh North dond Lake Road does have a lot of very fast traffic in this area and what does that mean to add another turn in turn out um even though it's not a lot of cars it's still more uh in an area that we've heard from a lot of residents that see accidents all the time so we have to take that serious and and make sure that that's okay um study on the environmental impact not that it needs a full assessment but we just more information on how it would impact that I think saying zero impact on the lake is probably a little extreme uh there's going to be something right you're developing you're putting in roads you're there's Watershed right like you know water's got to go somewhere right and we're changing how the water is going to go so there'll be some kind of impact so just understanding what that is um in general though I would agree that it's a good way to use this property if it were to develop by having varying lot sizes which would promote unique housing unique spacing of housing um you know houses that are spaced out farther right so it doesn't feel like a fully developed Community I think you know from that standpoint the neighbors that are directly around it you know with all the trees and stuff in the area probably don't see a whole lot of impact I haven't walked your property Mr Kelly to know like what that would look like you know but I won't be able to see any yeah I said I'm not yeah just a few concern yep so I think it's just learning more and again concept plan that's that's the point so if it comes back we'd love to see a lot more more information I think I think the only thing that that wasn't addressed by others I guess I didn't want you go but go ahead um was parks and trails in this neighborhood I think we have a unique opportunity here to um maybe look at what a a trail might be through here I don't know you know Thicket Hills if if it makes sense to to run a trail here that deadend and Thicket Hills and eventually there's one added there um or if it's or if it's um you know maybe a future Trail connection to the the RightWay that is in between but since I'm no longer on Parks and that's been years I I would defer to that of what the park plan would look like knowing that we have some availability but of of right away there but not anything planned and this does not need in my opinion does not need the the neighborhood park um like our our plan has called out for their property is their park well that's the whole point I mean you're getting enough acreage that you have your green space you have your place to get outside and do things and the one area that might be is the north side of Lake Laura if that's actually planned for a commun is a it's a neighborhood neighborhood park is that's actually a pretty big lot too that that maybe there's an out lot there but it's also get taking the uh the valuable piece of the property too cuz it's still I'm not I know that in our Park plan they show the trail going around the lake through all these properties including Diamond Lake concept it's like that's just not going to be reality I don't think but there's already homes there yeah that's that's the challenge with this one is is how do you how do you deal with this this type of development I mean this is the same it's the same conversation we had with the last property of how do you deal with development that wants to happen on a parcle but nearby Parcels are nowhere near interested and we're not ready for it so I I think the I think with parks and trails it might be a little easier um just to to identify what what could be and make sure that the developer willing to have those conversations with the city so you Peter I don't disagree with you you know the north side of the lake jumped out at me as as an opportunity to potentially extend a trail that would maybe go east and you know there's Terry you're you're you you mentioned you're you wanted to be long gone before the the count plan changed um but you know when when and if that property ever does develop in the future you know that trail could potentially continue over to laale and what what the future of laale looks like um you know it could be kind of a Scenic Corridor Trail offs spur from a trail that's along laale um but I just don't it's tough on on an if that would ever happen and what benefit that would provide and how much that would impact this community until that occurred it'd be it'd be yeah I don't know that's it's a good one for parts and you get that the the great example is the neighborhood just is it just south of here where where the the new neighborhood brought a trail into their street and it just dumped there and people are walking on the road so it's like um it's just something to to consider in a challenge with with development like this any more feedback for the the concept plan um I would just say you guys talked about reports I guess the one thing I would like from staff is just confirmation that you know cuz the lineal feet per Street per home is going to be a lot compared to a typical subdivision is just understanding that you know I'm assuming these are going to be higher priced homes so you're probably going to be just fine with the tax revenue coming in but making sure that there's not a negative consequence of including the future Road replacement because someday we'll have to replace the road um because there's only 13 lots and there's a lot of lineal feet a road um the other [Music] thing I I guess you know when that with regards to the concept plan I guess I like it better than just coming up with 10 acre lots myself because I think it's maximizing the use of the land better um but I am more supportive of re but I could you know I get it if the Met council is going to deny it if we support it and I guess people in the audience should be aware too the three years I've been on the Planning Commission something like this has been talked about by Council um the whole time and this area has kind of been identified as a Well Suited area and I think we've heard tonight from multiple people that this parcel's well suited for it you me it's not going to it's not well suited for high density so I prefer to go the re route and try to convince them at console but I realize there's a risk if we went that route can we then backtrack and go to A3 A3 won't fix it he said cuz he said 10 acres is wouldn't do the trick 10 acres so we might we have to go AR then not in my opinion but come up is there another option we'll discuss that that's good good good Council discussion I mean it's something I think that that we just need to we need staff and and to investigate more of you know can we make this work with a with a different Zone sure so we're we're you know this is one parcel and it's a very large parcel but there's a whole lot of areas that have similar characteristics of this um if the commission is supportive of I'm just going to call two acre lots do you want to explore expanding that to a larger area of dayon I think we've talked about it the whole time but it's a it's a it's an undertaking and so I'm completely fine doing it oneof and letting people come to us with those things to explore myself because otherwise we're going to be spending a lot of time and we might identify all these perfect Parcels for it but the owners want nothing to do with it so we're just spitting our wheels for no reason I I think the way we need to do this I mean we're on the verge John of the the comp plan we need to identify what that acre what that lot size is or what that that zone is and then during the comp plan we can get the review we can get the input from the residents and and land owners and bring it forward then we're not doing then we're not doing the homework on it now we're not and like Darren said we're not guessing and finding out that it wasn't worth it yep so if we had it in place it would help inform the comprehensive Plan update sure okay so um just oh go ahead I just wanted to say I do like that fact that there's a variety of lot sizes and cuz as you said you looked for homes like this and they're not for sale like there's very few communities that have these bigger and those of us who are lucky enough to live on them love them and protect them with everything we have and so it's not really fair to den like if there's an opportunity to allow other people who feel the same way that they want larger lot sizes and have a more have that kind of rural feel to make it possible cuz I could never have bought a 100 Acre property like I don't have the money to buy 100 Acre property I was able I was very lucky that I was able to afford my 18 Acres um and so I do appreciate that there are this this would provide give more people like me an opportunity to to live that dream in Dayton which is what I think makes Dayton amazing so that is the one thing I do genuinely like about this I appreciate for those neighbors around you yes it sucks that it's development but I feel like it's the the least evil thing that's going to happen I think it does go a long way to preserving Ral character that's something we've talked about a lot um I think it goes a long way to do it sounds like Council might have something additional to discuss that might you know help it proceed in that direction but it's I mean it sounds generally that we're we're interested all right there was just more info you to be expected with a concept plan for staff too is with if it comes forward to a preliminary plat I would like to see the usable acres for each slot as well as the gross cuz everything's gross right now and that's some of these smaller Lots I just want to put it in perspective sure so um you know Thicket Lane so uh that's area to the north it's 11 11 lots that are generally 9 or 10 acres in size um not all 9 or 10 acres are developable or buildable so some are you'll see the houses are right up next to the road because that's the L Lane that's buil buildable y so it might put the 20 acre lot might only have 5 Acres usable so really the bunch of 5 acre lights I guess is what I'm trying to say people which isn't bad I'd rather take 20 acres of wetland and have that view all day long so it's not bad just I'd like to see that number and I can have nine ducks and no one can complain at me about my nine Ducks wow all right too soon with um I think just confirmation of the septic system um yeah feasibility too just from you know just yeah and so engineering looks at that and makes sure that it works if that's if we get to that point y so generally I mean that gets looked at during the building permit stage not necessarily planning that's and they will very likely be bound yeah all right with that uh we will move into item 8 e concept plan DCM [Applause] Farms okay uh the concept plan for DCM Farms the applicant is Tom Dean and and as I mentioned in the last couple slides uh the idea of a concept plan is this is the very beginning of a longer stage of Designing the the development so uh critical issues with this is firm Brook Lane just with the The increased traffic um this project is large enough that it will likely require an environmental assessment worksheet uh the project includes a mix of housing types which includes both attached and detached Town Homes and Apartments as well as commercial and Retail um and then the other big item I've got is just trying to create a a sense of place so uh Nick had talked about the waning preserve rural character um it's a little bit more challenging when you're in a more denser Suburban environment it's hard to see this I can see it much better on my screen than what you can so this is again this is 94 Acres I believe in size um it's large enough that it does not fit on one page U so this is kind of spliced together uh the developer is proposing three different options and just for clarity um this project in here is not part of this project that is braver Trails West it's been approved it's just here to kind of show the the street connections um so this the area that's being proposed is um this rectangle here and then this rectangle there I think of this is kind of the thumb um in the lower area there there's kind of a mix of attached and detached town homes or or and detached town home would also be known as a villa in the thumb area or the North Area there's uh three different concepts of Apartments Town um I'll say attached six plexes and eight plexes I believe and then single family and so you once again I I apologize that this isn't very uh visible but um my thought is to kind of go through uh each plan or each option one by one and collect comments from uh the commission the developer is here you want do comments you General comments I my plan's be really yeah I mean they're essentially the same plan except for the northeast corner for the most part I'm going to have Tom depend on Tom for clarifying it there is some changes uh it's more subtle uh good evening so kindor this is going to be a little different than i' would say all the other Concepts just just for the record name and address I know hi Tom Dean 11261 from brooklane Dayton um so on some of the other ones this evening right they came in with a concept plan and said hey that's what we want to get through um so I'm looking to kind of take and figure out what we extended in the Sundance screens but you know as I sit and talk there's everything s you know everybody's saying as everybody in the north no density you want you know and and try to bring density to the South now I'm not necess you know so I really want to look at this is just kind of getting your opinion I'm not looking for an approval I would really see that hey come feedback I get the council I'm back in August you know maybe um with with more of a real hey concept plan after I've gotten everybody's input and move forward so there isn't uh you know there are some points you know I break down that i' I'd like to really see uh as a part of the development but I'm really looking just to to you know get some feedback um you know it would come back a concept I could have you know Street Scapes and all that but I wasn't really going to come and bore and just make everybody a long presentation and just kind of look at it as a high level and and if you went through the you know so I really if I laid it out there's two different layouts for option one and two and that really covers the southern 70 acres and then the piece the 20 acres off 117th imagine that affects the last three um the the piece the only difference that you really see between option one and two is along here this is showing 65 foot wide Lots currently the other one would be Town Homes um you know as we did the the southern half of 113 you know we have a lot of town homes uh along the road but we go from 375,000 a home to the back end of the golf course at 1.3 um I would take this in continuation of if we went to the Far West Side this would lead into the the last phase of the golf course that you know would have been already preliminarily approved and again maybe see that same number of you know 375 to a million3 but if you want to build the whole thing in a million dollar houses it's not going to sell right affordability with the interest um and so you know what I have here is is on this this southern part or you know North 113th let's call it the 113th options is I I I think just kind of a mixture I don't have a trail or any of that in there yet but we have you know it's already a master Trail that'll run on the the west side we're going to give the the corner of the park to continue the four sections you know to have that Park built out there'd be more Trails inside you know to get to the park but I'm really just you know looking at everything that would be in the darker green is a 65 ft wide lot the the the um call it the beige or the yellow area those would be what I'd be looking at 55 ft lots and and a lot of them would probably be Villas you know so detach Villas and an associate maintained and then in the center where what's call Purple that'll have a 45 ft wide lot but I'm really looking probably for a small smaller single family house more affordable so it cost more than the town homes across the street but it's it's a house that's maybe 450 to 500,000 which I know it seems crazy now but that's kind of a starter house you know where where the cost was I mean i' I've had some Concepts where I had a whole bunch of town homes matching like we did on the other side and and so that' be one question no I like what's on the other side put Town Homes no I'm okay with more single families you know how this is drawn out so really just kind of looking for that impact if if you were to go into the Sundance greens part and just go to the south side of Rush Creek Parkway we do have some Lots right there on the south that are 50 foot wide um because we looked through initially we gave a proposal it's at Woods in the southwest corner and we could have took all the woods out or I said hey if we save the woods could we get some smaller density and that's where we got those 50ft wide Lots there's not of woods in this this side preserve but um it's kind of just you know looking at affordability you know it could come back and you lay the whole thing out at a 65 foot wide you know so I've developed what we call it I own Gardens but it's lar markets at at Edgewater off of North Diamond Dayton Road those are all the exact same product houses you know over in Sundance greens you know we have some different you know we have a lot of different product I guess my question is you know is there a preference you know if if hey I like the Edgewater piece well then then maybe we we go to that you know but I'm I'm just looking for some feedback um that would be on the residential part you know so if you'd say although I'm kind of mixing up the option I would say that a part is I I really like that layout I could go single family I could go town home um on that part um but I I wouldn't want to I'd like to hopefully not sway much from that layout um the second part of it is is I know it's kind of a new uh for the area but it would be that commercial part you know I think a part of that be dating I mean I've lived date my whole life lived here you know rain tree really hasn't changed much forever there isn't really any other spots to go for somebody but you know maybe Maple Grove Maple Grove has all the large facilities but I thought maybe there's a just a smaller little corner where you know I I I haven't really marketed anything because I don't know if it's even approved maybe everybody says it's residential but like a gas station a daycare you know maybe there's a banquet hall that goes there um you know the city staff I think is getting calls you know like for a another type of pints and paddles or whatever they call it there you know indor fa facility had another lady that was moving in the community was looking to build um you know she's not looking but she's willing to maybe donate for like an indoor baseball facility I don't know if that fits here you know but there's is it a little coffee shop is a couple neighborhood you know cleaner sandwich shop you start looking by the time you take you know this neighborhood Sundance greens some of the other ones rurn you know there's couple thousand home homes and go on the other side of the creek in Maple Grove I mean yes would all those people maybe go you know into Maple Grove but maybe it's more convenient just to come north a little bit you know and the parks there so I uh um I I just think you know to me that would be maybe uh something that Dayton could use everybody up here says no I think you're wrong well then you know I'm like I said I'm really just uh kind of justifying what I'm what I'm giving you here so so that um I don't know does anyone have questions on those parts we want to do the public hearing first or all right well I I just have some clarifying I've got some clarifying questions that that may help before we get to the public hearing um so the main part I guess one one of the things that you proposed in all the options is is taking 113th and connecting to 114th correct yep and so with that connection is part of this project the roundabout that's shown in the concept plans or is that so I would I I would say yes okay okay and so and and this is just I see everybody on around about so when we worked on the sundan screens piece when I first started Ed I proposed a tunnel underneath for bike trail all Three Rivers Park said no you know we that intersection up there if you look is offset a little bit cuz Three Rivers wouldn't give any property to to keep the road centered they actually gave us five different layouts by the time we finally got the thing built um I see you know you go down to Territorial Road they put around about you have one at uh Pine View kind of just thinking that's probably where somebody's going to go I haven't had any discussion with the county yet um but I do know when we did uh the Sundance greens there was discussion then by the county because you know the northern side of suance greens was 113th and 114th got to connect right we don't want we want to just have one access point to eliminate two well obviously you're not going to go across um you know 100 113th to the other side there's there's HS there and uh and I I think even turn lanes and everything there wouldn't be very you know it wouldn't be well you know wouldn't be good for the homeowner the home owners houses are there are all a little closer to the street so it take turn Lanes I don't you know so to me it just seemed like the natural spot to go as 114 okay so that's how we came up with that and then when you go to 114th now you got this little triangle in there what what do you do with it and maybe that's just fit for commercial yeah I'm assuming there might be some public comment on this so if staff can weigh in but is there any update on upgrades to firm Brook be roundabouts at 117th are they worthwhile telling the public before they come up here and talk uh no plans we've been made aware of from the county they they have seen um the concept of round about a dis location they are supportive um similarly the city recently completed an intersection inventory with some potential improvements at some of the major intersections um Rush Creek Parkway to the South was identified as one of the top priorities uh with a roundabout concept there this the county is also supportive of that as well but no plans for implementation okay all right so then if I went to honor 17th and although option three four and five it's doesn't mean three is more important five right but there was just you know discussion of density this is kind of an apartment layout it could be I mean right there you know we we probably up 290 that's probably not we didn't spend a lot of time with parking or any of that you know I showed an apartment I showed one that's a little different concept where they put a clubhouse and they make smaller buildings versus one large building I don't know what does that mean is that area even to somebody like I said hav Market Assisted Living you know I I don't know you know and I don't know if they even fit in the spot I'm just kind of you know a lot of smart people here in the council and just ask for some opinion um you know to be honest with you I have nobody that even Market that to and just that you know I can I can put regular houses in but I'm just just asking for feedback um option number four just would show Town Homes um not many people put the back to back in there you see so but that'd be a worst case town home I I'd probably be if it was Town Homes it would probably be something more that you'd see like on sundan screens right now but just kind of kind of showing options and then the last one would be just laying it all out at 65 ft you know and if we went 65 ft here there wouldn't be any Town Homes between that option one or two they're going to just run 65 you know up the east side the first part and into this help yeah explain that and just just so I C I'm clear the only option that that you're showing a connection to 117th would be the apartment concept yeah and I I uh in the in the current um yeah and and I don't I I think uh out of that one was still questionable if you know is that too close to that intersection and does it does it go through the other neighborhood you know yeah just but there is more traffic so we don't you know sorry staff is opposed to any connection just given the proximity to different R yeah okay yeah so and like I said that that that section there was really just going what is in it was somewhere city1 Pur then you know I'd look and but I mean may even come back and say man that really not going to work you know I think we've got some good feedback for you but I'm going to wait public comments I want to hear from public comments all right um so I gu a question for the commission is this helpful this screen helpful otherwise he can revert to the packet not really it's hard to see s yep it would have help it show up I think you had the best of intentions John all right so with that at 9:29 we will open the open the public hearing on this if you'd like to come forward uh please state your name address and deliver a slip to Zach and uh you will have the floor for approximately three minutes hopefully if we if we start getting repetitive I will sounds great yeah you can just you know ask for new new things repetitive hi my name is Kathy poers and I live at 11461 Fernbrook Lane and I am one of the six homes that are on Fernbrook Lane and the proposal that was sent to us was option two and I am totally opposed to that primarily because there's been no consideration for traffic on F Brook Lan number one I mean I have been here to these meetings before and voiced my opinion about the traffic nothing has been done now I don't understand and you keep saying it's a county road I know it's the county road I've talked to the county but why can the city of Champlain communicate with Dayton and have a pilot going with um excuse me County and have a pilot going so they can put up stop signs to alleviate some of the traffic and the speed going on and so on and so forth I don't I don't know what's going on with the traffic I don't think any proposal or any concept plan should be done unless somebody has done something with the traffic on Fernbrook Lane and I've looked at the at the proposal that was sent out can you imagine 264 apartments and what kind of traffic that's going to have on Fernbrook yeah you put you think about a roundabout on 117th that's not going to solve the problem the problem needs to be before that and I can tell you right now I almost was hit by a bus coming off of the Sundance Road Road people there do not stop they don't pay attention to the stop signs people walk with baby carriages across there there's no intersection that says walkway for for pedestrians or anything like that and yes we all know that The Pedestrian has the right away no matter what but there still should be signs there should be something done and communicated with um him County and something should be done before you send out concept plants the other thing is um drainage water drainage now granted we have had a huge amount of rain this spring we know that but I've had residents I've talked to residents on Fernbrook Lane and they have water damage and the water damage was prior to this rain that we have had it has to do with the building on the on um south side of Deans and also grayburn so it's I don't know if people aren't taken into consideration what happens that when they rough up the land and dig up the land what happens to the underground water and the flow of the water also I see that you've got plans in here for ponds well great that's wonderful but the ponds need to be higher than the lowest basement level is that right or lower lower lower excuse me lower than the lowest basement level has anybody considered that I mean one would hope so and what about Pest Control I've got so many mosquitoes right now because of the water drainage that I don't even dare go outside so as far as your concept plan I think it sucks and I've seen all three of them and I think they all suck the other thing is thinking about putting in a commercial property where the dean Country Manor is a gas station and then you want a daycare center by the gas station all that traffic it makes not too much sense to me and you have on the traffic as far as the traffic goes on forign Brook what about the people that have to get their mail on the west side of the road have you been thinking about that I I just don't know why you have a concept plan if you haven't fought thoroughly through the traffic issue and the drainage issues let me see if I missed anything here no I haven't missed anything on this concept plan but I will be back at some of the meetings to propose some things for you and I if you guys want to put in a gas station hey put it in at the big cor Corner up there on Fernbrook Lane and 129th don't put it where you got residential people and you haven't thought about traffic thank you question for me thank you and by the way I think Sarah said it right when they were talking about the $2 million homes I moved out here in 1975 and I looked at it to be Rural and I think five years ago your whole plan was to try and keep this Rural and I don't mean that we have to have all farmland or anything like that but to try to keep a rural effect thank you and I don't know if you have looked this up or not thank you thank you hi I'm Linda Holquist I live at 11471 for in Brooklyn so I'm the house no the north house um that will would be right against the apartment buildings and right now we've been we've lived there about 45 years we've managed the water um our ditches are always wet it's very clay and all the fields are above our property so the water all comes down which is not problem because we've managed it because it mostly goes into the the farmlands what happens when that's all um pavement all that water is just going to go right down into our basement we're really concerned about that that's my biggest concern and also I've spent 15 years you know planting you know butterfly gardens and having all organic there all that pavement all the toxic stuff is going to go right into our yard so it seems to me there needs to be some kind of division if there is or just to make sure that water is considered uh that's my biggest concern is water so thank you thank you thanks I'm Lee Holquist that was my lovely bridey heard from I've lived at 11471 Fernbrook Lane for the last last 45 years uh my my biggest concern is drainage right now this afternoon there's 4 Ines of water standing in the ditch in front of my house it doesn't go away the the weeds are so high on the North side that you can't see up firm Brook Lane it's like having snow drifts up there right now if you're going out at the driveway in a sedan um my since I started on the BR bur project my Su pump is cycling um last summer it was last summer was a drought year why some pump is cycling every 7 minutes we're cycling five every 5 minutes over the winter all winter right now it's cycling every 2 minutes the ground is just there's no drainage there and nothing is being done for it I think this the city or the developer has an obligation to put a hyd hydrologist out there or a hydrogeologist and find out where the water is coming from or where it's going because this started getting so bad with the development prior to that we had spring melt and everybody's some runs now mine hasn't has been running for more than two years every few minutes and that's not right that's dangerous um anyway I think the city has an obligation to deal with the drainage issues uh I'm also a little irritated because my house got broken into a few years ago and the the police officer that came out said that crime is following this developments out here they're stealing tools they're stealing building materials and there's not adequate protection for that separate issue the 121 from Brooklyn is not set to handle 11,000 cars a day and that's what your numbers have been for it in the last few meetings that we went to about what you're going to do on firm Brook Lane right now it's over 5,000 cars a day just I understand it's just barely over 5,000 if the longest it's taken me to get out of my driveway to turn South on firm Brook Lane is 8 minutes so I have to sit at the end of my driveway for 8 minutes and wait for traffic to open up that's just not healthy that's not right either um not wild about the idea of being assessed for city sewer and water either but because I suspect that's going to have to happen if we go to City SE um the uh this particular design is looking at a um about 5 Acres of parking lot from what I can tell it's going to end 11 ft from my driveway and it's going to be three 1 to 3 feet higher than my elevation on my land there's no place for the water to go somebody's got to do something about it otherwise you're going to have to flood me out uh that's what's happening right now I've done a lot of work in the last 45 years to control the water in my that comes through my yard but this is just overwhelming if I lose electricity for 5 minutes my basement's wet and that's just not right and it's I've done everything I can do I think we need to have you guys do what you can do or the developer do what he can do and it's just something else needs to happen uh and I think that's part of your due diligence um I think I've covered everything I'm patient enough to cover for right now I guess but like I say you guys it's a due diligence issue you can't just keep running uh yeah building excessive building it's just not right here I moved out here because I like rural country I've stepped over my three minutes and I apologize for that thank you thank you I'm Hillary mcdan at 1126 oern Brook for 54 years um I just want to add to these people talking about the water problem and I want to tell you what happened to me on Al Dean's addition Tom was told that I my the draining dish runs right to my property from from not 80 acres of Aline and he was told that these two holding tanks holding ponds would take care of it and I should have a lot less water running through my property than I had before that didn't happen um water runs continually in fact it ran all winter long and you know how what winter was like last winter and the so my concern is the engineers what I don't know who the hell's figuring this out but it's it's not working I mean definitely don't work from that addition up there and these poor people when when this addition goes in if you don't have if Dayton don't hire a different an outfit to figure out what the runoff is I mean I've been through this before I was Pro the crystal console 50 years ago when they put in they put Target in a big building in a whole parking lot and that and it's and it flooded out about five five intersections so i' I've been around this before and uh I uh the council told me I I said you could improve the my water situation if you move the Culvert that that um um uh that uh I'm 90 years old and I'm losing my memory anyway they put the C in the wrong place on on 12th and I said move it it'll help me I'll only have one ditch running instead of two ditches running continually and they said okay we can do that it'll be 71,000 and we'll assess your property I said what the heck you know it's the create the it was all created across the road and you're going to want me to pay 71,000 to improve your property poor Jesse young he's he's got the third holding Pond as the water comes into his property he's got five acres flooded and Dayton is they're going to dig a ditch and try to help him out but some engineer has got to figure it out and that's that's all I wanted to say and uh good luck guys thank you thank you race to who gets her first no goost howdy Randy Bolam my address is 11441 Fernbrook Lane North you know I wouldn't mind going up to the map I've heard you guys talk about you know Diamond like Road what about Fernbrook R you I didn't hear hardly anybody oppos my God imagine if that was Diamond Lake gr you guys would have raised all kind of Hell about this here I am right here right on Fernbrook do you think I want this here no more than you guys want your development's on your road and my neighbors are absolutely right it's going crazy they're passing in front of our houses going 60 65 miles an hour you know fine Mr Dean buy us out then you can have the whole works thank you go my name is stepen Grant 2801 New Hope Minnesota I watch City Council meetings throughout the state because I love development and so I watched last uh last um sesss development and I think this is a great opportunity for the city and for the residents safy safety is always first maybe there's um a way to implement a pedestrian bridge like there is in Golden Valley Minnesota and so I just thought I would say my two cents of two what's right with safety first and drainage you hear the um concerns but with the right project team anything's possible so um learn from those previous ones and to make it better for the next one that's what it's all about thank you thank you thanks for coming hello hello thank you for your time um my name is Stacy Smith Donley I'm on 11431 Fernbrook Lane North um I've lived there for about four years we have two young children the person that probably is the one pushing the boogy buggy across the street we are kind of you know kitty corner two houses in and um we use that Dead End Road to get into the park we kind of have access there and I'm not opposed to overall you know I I we moved in we knew that there was going to be development eventually and I think it would be nice for it to be intelligently planned I am concerned about some of the things that they're concerned as well mostly the traffic and safety um and you know like it just needs to be approached from away because if you look at some of the concepts or at least the one they sent to us you know there's a road a new road going to be going in a house over there's Fernbrook and then they want these Town Homes which by my count there's going to be like six overlooking my yard alone so like oh nice I have beautiful views every every day and now I have looking into people's backyards or they're looking into mine but not just one or two houses a whole swath of people um and then that road too which is like it's already loud enough um and busy enough it's just feels unsafe and I would appreciate more consideration in that way um yeah and and it it also if you kind of look at the plans and Coring to even the other developments going in around um that's currently above it you can kind of see like the the density of that property at least when I was buying my property was slated on the 2040 plan is like a low density area and this is not that it looks I mean obviously I'm not as um you know well versed as you all are but for my opinion that doesn't seem um like a low density kind of construction so um but like I think there's a lot of potential in Dayton and I'm very much interested and inspired by you all to like to really make this community something even better than what it already is and that I really want to see this land used in a in a smart and intelligent way and and also in a way that like plans for what we're already dealing with which is very unsafe road conditions on Fernbrook and I know that because of the it's a county road like other people have mentioned and we've plan you know I've attended or my family has attended um the other meetings on that and that there's not a lot of control on your part but it would be nice to at least be in talks with the county about how to do that um um and you know what's it going to look like in terms of like our sewer and and and water our if there is an expansion on that road we wouldn't be able to have our septic system still running it's too close if they decide to you know take some of our land to help kind of ease that and yeah so those are my main points um and I'm definitely agreed upon after hearing people's arguments about the water because we do have a lot of standing water and bugs and you know it's just it's it's a cause for concern and has already even in the four years we've lived there have noticed more water in the ditches and other little spots in the yard low spots in the yard and you know we're new homeowners to the area we've we've I've owned a home probably with my husband for um probably you know in other areas for over 10 years but this is still something that you know doesn't seem like I don't know it just I'm concerned about the water is all I'm saying um and I do have some questions about like how many people are really like how you know exactly how many people are they trying to put here and what kind of land you know like or what am I trying to say it's been a long night um wondering about if they are planning for that like study around how many cars and things like that so um but I would like a connection to elen Creek Park that that is safe and like that does make sense and or even being able to go to a playground not having to cross Fernbrook Road necessarily in that spot um but yeah it's and just the traffic and just consideration for those six houses where they're trying to put three roads right around us would you want to live in a house with a busy road in the front and then another road behind you and another road on the other side and then 14 buildings of of apartments on the other I don't think so so that's what I have to say thank you I'm sorry for going over all right Pete Pogle John Pete Pogle I go by Pete I live at 11351 Dallas Lane that's just a little short Street with the few houses that uh actually comes out on 11 14th I have uh some pump tool my sump pump my son came over here the other day he says your sump pump is never stopping runs continually and uh if I had electricity go out I would have a flooded basement very quickly uh I have a the corner of my property off of Dean's property there's kind of a little Ravine or whatever that and it comes to 121 and uh I had somebody come out and check it was a hydraulic for something cuz it water was bubbling out of the ground this was 3 years ago after that snow melt you said it looks like you have a a uh what they call it artisian spring or whatever it's coming out of the ground and I have a cck that uh that water flows into and it flows uh to the uh to the uh South no to the East and then to the South and then back east and around my son's property and and uh that cek handles the water pretty well so we haven't had problem with a lot of flooding but uh we do have a lot of water uh but the main question I'm asking about is uh coming out on onto uh Fernbrook Lane from uh 114th uh traffic is really bad there and I have a question about what's going to happen to that intersection is I couldn't really tell by looking at that uh is a is a 124th going to 114th going to be continued AC cross the street is going to make a or is it going to end there looks like it's going to be a straight across through the roundabout yeah proposed to connect 113th to 1114th and then put a roundabout at the intersection there just H uh the proposal there shows 113th uh coming up in diverting north where to meet 114th and where they would meet is a proposed roundabout um or or a future roundabout I would say so at that 120 114th and Fernbrook nothing's going to happen to the intersection then that would be where the intersection would be there but it'd be a roundabout so theoretically your access going Southbound would be easier um with the roundabout there you wouldn't necessarily have to wait for they put a roundabout there then that that'll take part of my property depends I guess my my horse pasture there it's unknown huh it's unknown right now but presumably it could I mean it's a it's a concept plan so all right okay that was my M question Mr chair you do have um one person online and then one comment that you do need to read in so just want to make sure you know thank thank you good evening I'm Keith Grover I live at 11320 Fernbrook Lane uh so if you run the stop sign on 113th you end up in in my yard next to my garage which has happened several times over the years um my family moved to Dayton in 1962 and uh I grew up on a farm on Elm Creek Road that my daughter and her family still live in and in 1974 um my wife and I moved and bought the house that we live in now we raised our two daughters there um they used to play tennis on the road on 121 in front of the house of course they didn't tell us they were doing that but they used to play tennis out there right and now days you can't go out there any time of the day without putting your life in somebody else's hands even just just to go across and get your mail I try to get it early in the day you know when the mail comes at a decent time but if you if you're out there from anytime from 2:30 to to 7:00 I mean you almost need a traffic cop out there to get you across the street and back just to get your mail so that mean the traffic out there is just absolutely horrible and I wish you'd set a camer up on that intersection of 113th and watch how many people don't stop because I bet you 80% of the people that come out of that new addition back there and I don't have anything against those people at all some of them may be coming from sundan some may be coming from that addition but people do not pay attention to that stop sign the trucks hauling in and out of there they don't pay any attention to that stop sign they just drive right through and it's a horrible intersection because at that intersection if you look to the South 121 has a big dip in it when you're sitting in my driveway looking that way you can't see cars in that dip it's just very dangerous to get out of that road and then with the amount of traffic that's on that road now it's just absolutely insane I remember um years ago when Dayton went through this Dayton by Design thing where we had we had all these people come together and I participated in that as well as a lot of people in Dayton did and the result coming out of that was what I'd hoped it would be that they they wanted to keep Dayton as rural as we possibly could um I haven't seen any action from anybody on the city level that even remotely comes close to trying to keep Dayton Rural and what I see is just the exact opposite I mean 55 ft wide Lots 60t wide Lots houses crammed in town houses that are about as ugly as as Sin with you know row houses that look like barns with that you put chickens in years ago and they're building those all along 113th and I just see more of that in this new addition that's that's coming in um on the other 80 90 Acres that the that the Deans own there um I don't see anything good coming from that you mean well I I take that back you mean the realignment of 113th over to 114th if you put some kind of traffic control there that does make some sense I understand that but the the way it's laid out with with all these multi-unit housing that they're proposing and any of the plans that you look at are bright buted up against all the people that have lived along that road for 40 50 years like you know like me and my wife and and my kids have I mean that's just insane if you want to build these multi-unit houses and I understand that it's going to happen as much as I hate it I understand that it's going to happen why does it have to be right next to the people that have lived in Dayton and been good citizens of Dayton for 50 plus years why do they have to look out their back door and see this monstrosity of a building instead of the sunset that we've been looking at for years if they want to build them build them back into the addition someplace and if somebody's dumb enough to buy a house next to them then let them look at it why do we have to do that when I saw the the plans for that those apartments down along um on the north side of the of the folks that were up here speaking earlier I just looked I scratched my head and why in the world would you do that why would you put you know 200 plus apartments next to people that have lived in the rural they bought rural they lived out here because of the rural atmosphere of Dayton and you're just taking every bit of that that we have left left away the other thing that I that I got to touch on is that the commercial piece there I mean some might argue well Dean's Manor is a commercial piece it's been there since 1958 I've lived here in Dayton almost as long as that I've never looked at that as a commercial piece it was owned by by Allen and Phyllis good friends of mine God bless philis she's passed away now but Allen still is that place was never a commercial proper to me because it ran most of the time it ran from 4:00 in the afternoon until 8 at night and then at noon on or 10: on on Sundays you know for Sunday brunch I Alan asked me one time does our traffic over here bother you I said Al I never hear them I don't hear them they were good neighbors they weren't any more noisy than anybody else living around me but if you talk about you know it's a short hours there that makes a difference too because you get this peace time in between the the cars and the rush hour and the people going to to the food place but if you're talking about putting some kind of an establishment in there like a gas station that runs 247 you got people coming in and out of there all the time onto a road that you don't want any more cars on that there is no more room for cars on I do not want to sit in my living room and look at the bright lights of some dang service station across the street from my house and I don't think anybody would want want that and don't think there's no place in the middle of a Housing Development like that especially for those of us that have been there for years there's no place there for that kind of an environment it just isn't so I I seriously think you need to really really look hard at what they're doing there and the water issue too I mean I know what that's like I have two sum pumps and they're running continuously Keith I'm going to I'm going to cut you off at 6 minutes I know you're one of the most impacted people but I think you get I think we got that part of it so thank you well I'll carry on for him because I'm Marsha Grover and I live with him I have lived with him for 52 years we've lived in Dayton I have lived in Dayton for 50 years he's lived there a lot longer but as you notice most of our neighborhood is older people we don't have a lot of money we're retired we wanted to spend the rest of our lives in our homes we carried out on a stretcher at the end but I see in the plans that it includes a shopping center and a gas station right across the street from my house we have wells we have septic systems they have wells they have septic systems and you're going to put a gas station there oh my gosh and um the gas station's right across the street you can't tell me our water is not going to get polluted it look at 3M on the east side of the Cities here what a terrible mess that is and it only takes one drop to pollute your well we're in the process of having our water tested now we're going to set a baseline to tell me what exactly is in my water and every few years if we get that gas station I am going to test my water again I don't want it polluted do you know what Benzene does to you do you know what petroleum products do to you when you eat it who wants that who would buy our house sitting across the street from a gas station my well is in my front yard it would be just feet away from a gas station who wants that would you want it in your yard would you want your well polluted by gasoline and petroleum products I don't and not only that they're going to to put in businesses there we're already picking up trash in our yard constantly from the construction down 113th and now we're going to have noise and lights and more garbage in our yard and the developers they don't care they don't care they come in the city they grab the money and they're gone they don't live here we have to live with the results of what they build so make the right choice for us who actually live here and want to live here and don't forget about the people that live there right now thanks thank you anyone else here online oh we have the online let's do the online on um chair I'm going to read in uh one that's already that just made a comment they don't want to speak but they just want to make their comment um Julie and I'm going to probably butcher your last name H hen Thorn 14525 112th Avenue North no additional construction should be built until a plan for handling traffic is in place Crossing Fernbrook in a car at Rush Creek is unsafe never mind walking that was the comment um and then there's one individual online Eric you should should be unmuted will you can unmute yourself y can you hear me yes yes okay um right so I think I I share basically some of the same uh position as several others that speak sorry Eric suppled 11534 uh in braver trail H the wrong button you're going to have to unmute yourself again there you go all right can you hear me now yep you're good Eric okay um so Eric suppled 11534 braburn Trail um and sharing some of the same opposite position as others um I think it's from a little bit different perspective as I'm not um a long-standing resident I'm newer uh to the neighborhood or to the city um I'm also not naive to the fact that this area will be developed and and I really don't have any major opposition to the general layout in this plan um with the options that are presented and I do appreciate that the applicant is looking for feedback on this however I don't agree with supporting a plan that involves changing the zoning of an area to other than what the 2014 comp plan uh call us for um when the area of mention is designated as current on the 2040 staging plan uh many residents in the very recent past and present have decided to invest in homes in this area based on a very recently adopted 2040 comp plan um done so between 2020 and 2022 per the city website um and it was with that understanding of how this area was agreed to look um that we made these Investments our reason for laying down a RIT should be considered and honored this would mean low density residential in this area and not medium density Andor commercial my biggest opposition is designing apartment buildings into these plans my perception of apartment living is it would dry higher percentage of people not committed to long-term residency in the community and therefore less personal pride and respect of the area I think the facts uh homes in this area are valued 650 to a million dollars in some cases needs to be respected from a Viewpoint of desirability when I was home Hing myself we specifically have avoided homes in closer vicinity to town homes and apartments so I imagine others may as well I understand the rationale for a small commercial area here with the dean's uh Country Manor and Sundance nearby um with the concepts presented it doesn't seem like such a bad idea coffee shop daycare restaurant however my concern lies with what ends up being the reality um you know the mention you know locally owned um maybe vendors non-chain vendors would be nice however food chains or retail shops like VAP or cannabis shops gas stations or other less desirable is this operations essentially in the middle of the neighborhood I would completely be against so since the guarantee over the type of business allowed likely can't be provided I lean toward being opposed to allow any commercial beyond what already exists The Mention Of 114th as a neighborhood Entertainment District um in um the packet uh is near to to me since its 2040 comp plan land use shows no commercial designation of this area I would appreciate some exclamation um from staff I guess on why the recommendation is now a neighborhood Entertainment District there I also question the need for additional Cal business added to this area with the cop plan calling for commercial just to the northwest of this area more close to French Lake should the city ultimately disagree and decide commercial is appropriate here then I would uh suggest a similar layout as shown that that keeps this commercial and transient business that goes with it far from the neighborhood park for added safety considerations for our children however I do sympathize with some of the me uh comments made by the folks that would be already living there and would have to live near this um I think almost after with apartments and Commercial added this area I also have the same traffic concerns for 117th and an already problematic Fernbrook there's barely a solid plan in place for Fernbrook north of 117th no plan for south of 117th and state by the county there's not even in their 5 to 10 year outlook to summarize I'm absolutely opposed to apartment buildings I'm opposed to commercial but if the city and commission advise otherwise I request considering the restrictions on the type of Commercial Business and location considerations as mentioned um separate uh many of the residents that were around that west side of Fernbrook like the six houses there know if a project goes forward and obviously a project will go forward I I wonder and they may not be totally a fan of this but it's maybe some sort of compromise is that the homes that would AB but to their backyard uh you know maybe you sacrifice some of the profit and you leave a larger buffer zone there um some sort of open grass or Park area that then if those homes stay they have you know a little bit of their you know rural Space Preserve if they decide to sell off then that does also leave maybe a little bit more space for that to be uh redeveloped in time but that is all I have to share thanks for your time thank you all right any more public comment on this with that I will close the public hearing at 10:11 discussion my big first question is regarding the water and I'm questioning if there's drain tile in those fields um because there's no way to there's literally no way to find that if it has been lost in the sale of a home it is not stored anywhere cuz we're currently I'm I know there's drain tile on my land and I'm trying to figure out exactly where it is um so that's the question I have if the reason why you're having so many flooding issues if there's failed drain tile from the farm field um and there's no way to look that up if if that information's been lost then spring spring Rod yeah but I'm just saying there might be drain tile in the farm Fields there might have been there might have been but there could still be but if it has failed at any point it would be redirecting the water in new ways if if part of it has failed farther away up with the rver project and all that that's that's probably part of it yeah I noticed when they build there they build a r 5T up put the house down and they're not building those houses Bas I can um but they because they know it's yeah um but that would be a question I would have is the because whoever I mean ideally the land owners should have the information about the drink tile because you're supposed to get it when you close on a property but they're the only people who would have it so when great grandpa put it in in 1925 exactly and didn't write anything down um so that would just be that would be to the to the prop The Proposal um that would be my big question is what's the drain tile situation in the n in this on this land and is that part of the ongoing water issue the neighbors are having and that would have to be addressed absolutely um so that's kind of my first thing I do think um the reason why we were discussing the traffic on North Diamond Lake prior to this is because that's where those developments were now we're talking about a development on firm book and I agree with you but that's also why I feel like that's the whole point of our staging plan is we need to still we have to start with Fernbrook because the development is starting here so the priority needs to be figuring out Fernbrook because development or no development Fernbrook has to be dealt with and that needs to absolutely be our top priority um so to the to the people in the audience it's not that we didn't know that was an issue um but that that is that is the big issue um I do think more buffering to the existing properties would be my big you know the larger setbacks whether you have apartments or not they should I would agree not be right up against the people who've already lived there um and then uh screening you know again for the for the existing properties some some really high quality screening the commercial I I as with the online person I agree if we could say that it was going to be like a local coffee shop and like small like that would be I would be more in favor of that I don't need another Starbucks and McDonald's and another quick trip on that corner right like so but we can't really force that so I kind of I get where they're coming from those are my kind of initial um I will say I appreciate I appreciate the low density and we just want all homes but the reality is a lot of people can't afford home prices are getting so insanely high that I think it is important as a city that we have ability for people who don't make that much money to still have a h like still live somewhere and that unfortunately means Apartments like that means rentals because particularly when you're first starting out right youve just graduated college you've got student loans and you don't want to live with your parents right you got to have some you have to have affordable options and that means rentals and that means apartments that means Town Homes um I can see though about shifting where they're located I but I I I do like I liked that about this plan that there were a wide variety of price points and housing options to acknowledge that not everyone can start out in a $500,000 million doll $2 million home we have to have more price point options um so I did really appreciate that from the original plan so those are kind of my initial thoughts after hearing everything I'm going to just make one comment on the buffer so one of these plans has I'm going to call it an way not this plan um between the existing home behind the existing homes and uh in this case the town homes um this option would allow the the existing homeowners if if they chose to to flip the garages and have access onto the alleyway instead of on Fernbrook can I say something about that uh can we use microphone yeah yeah I would I I forgot about that John did mention that and so about that a little bit to put an Alleyway out the back side of my house would be a 5 foot incline I'd have to move my well um I'd have to just rearrange all the you everything but my septic Mount would have to be pretty much redone my Landscaping would be trashed I don't see how I could do it for less than $100,000 it's just a ridiculous idea and and you know like I say it's I'd have to take down trees and trees are valuable out here I love having my trees in the backyard but the alley idea I don't think any of us approve of that it just isn't going to work let me and and I don't necessarily want all of and I I know Lee does not speak for all of the the residents along here um just just trying to get a a pulse of the the six homes that are along along firm Brook and I I'll look back to to get some head nods or not but not necessar forget the cost the concept the concept of the alley and and being able to safely exit and enter your your your your parcel your house um is that where where would I exit to there's it's just not going to be that easy to get out to burbrook no matter what I do and alleys get plowed laugh by the way and well the reason I'm asking this is is from a concept perspective right if if we were able to provide you an access out the back of your property to what's something something a road right let's just call it a road um is that a preferred I mean you're already on Fernbrook on one side but but having that on the other side is that uh not a preferred option so you're seeing what the back of my house right now would become the front the front would be my front yard would become the backyard so essentially who's going to redo my house and that who I mean that's just not a uh in my house at least it's not a feasible idea who's going to move my well and and so and I I just want to make this clear right as the city we approve it we we can review and and review and make comments on a concept plan that was one of the one of the concepts that was brought forward was an Alleyway it is in in my opinion and this is I'm not speaking on behalf of you guys but in my opinion that provides a safer driveway to the alleyway than onto Fernbrook from what I've heard I live right there in Sundance woods so I know I know the amount of traffic you guys get and I I don't doubt it but I've from what I'm hearing about the the traffic and the traffic concerns on Fernbrook and your access to Fernbrook this would improve that is that is that a fair statement well it would improve it however you still need to address add the traffic on Fook if you traffic but as as as a I I I just wanted to just as a city we the traffic on for it's a County Road and I'm not I'm not passing the buck on the county road because there's certainly things we can do to partner with the county to make it safer I I understand that what we can do as a city though is that's that that's why I'm asking on this concept wise piece is that a concept for these six homes it's of something that would be considered this if it were Fe if it were feasible if it were paid for and feasible to city water if if it were feasible uh that might be an answer but is is this now on the the diagram you sent to me in the mail I couldn't read it with a 10 power magnifying glass so but is that alleyway connected to the apartments parking lot then because this parking lot's going to have 250 cars in it right next to my garage as it turns out uh great I I'll have to give up new Sunday I say the best way to think about it Le is it's just an Alleyway and that's what we're going to decide next what it connects to and you'd have concerns about other things that I get but the concept right now is just an Alleyway and we'll fig if that if that's even desirable and that by by you six residents I guess is what Peter's trying to ask I just invested like right so I I was just kind of curious on that from uh it was something we didn't it would take probably a a 5 foot incline to get out of my driveway if that were the case to get back there uh you would have to move my well and that is my second well so I don't know how many more Wells you want to dig on the property um what what I would recommend chair is having these residents reach out to staff and we can either meet with them and get their comments down on an email or or on paper we're not going to UC we're not going we're not going to make we're not going to make a decision on this you know I appreciate that this is a great place for suggestions because there's things that can change but I don't want to have a whole bunch of people staring at at my house from an apartment building either I want that y understood and so I I think we we allow as as part of the process here I'm going to ask you to step down cuz we owe Mr Dean some some comments on the plan um and that was that was just one issue that that I think wasn't as clear and I think was is worth addressing I I'll try to make mine quick um but I've I've got I've I've got quite a bit if that's okay yeah um Quicken quite a bit the traffic thing is something that I want to address you know first uh I'm not really looking for a lot of back and forth on this because it is a hanpen county roadway I know you mentioned not passing the buck I know staff has been in contact with h henpen County I would urge everybody that's in attendance tonight to contact your commissioner I'd question how many of you know who the commissioner is what district exactly you you have to be contacting henpen County they have to hear from the constituents the city can only say so much to henpen County and at some point it this really is the Chicken and the Egg situation does a four-lane Fernbrook come first or does does development come first it doesn't happen overnight and quite honestly a four-lane Fernbrook doesn't happen without development they need each other in order to occur if if no development occurs Fernbrook does not become four lanes once telich development occurs and we have these types of discussions that is how Fernbrook gets upgraded right so we're there I feel like we're on the precipice of it I feel like henpen County needs to be engaged more from the constituents um I myself I live in Sundance woods with Peter I go out that way every I go in and out that way every day multiple times a day my wife does soon my kids will be maybe not that soon they're pretty young yet I have concerns about it too um but I know that this stuff happens with time um and I I know there was Tom had mentioned that there was a tunnel and and I think there was even a roundabout considered down at Rush Creek Parkway these things have been discussed with henpen County I think henen County needs to get there they need to have the funding they need to have the plan and needs to be a priority for henpen County and until it's a priority for henpen County I don't see it changing that's my piece on the traffic part of it the commercial I don't love the commercial I I really don't and that's not just because I don't want it in my backyard I'm I'm deeper into Sundance Woods I just it to me it feels like a pocket of commercial that's kind of pulled away from the Dayton Parkway Central commercial area it's just going to be this weird little pocket of commercial I I I just don't know that it fits all that well um I I get that the dean Country Manor maybe seems to suggest that it could work there I I don't love it I hate it actually um all the commercial there I think it's a good opportunity for maybe some more higher density maybe that's where some of the apartments can go or maybe that's where uh more tow houses or or higher density housing can go along Fernbrook I think that makes a lot of sense Sundance screens that's the way it was higher density towards Fernbrook um that's my thought on that as far as the concepts that we've seen I kind of like the concept with the 65t wide Lots behind the six existing residentials um I think that provides the most similar product to the residents that are currently there um you know we can maybe discuss a larger rear setback um to make those lots a little bit deeper maybe additional buffer along that common property boundary um I think that's you know had those six houses not been there I think it's a perfect location for higher density right along furn BR but those six houses are there they're single family houses um I kind of think 65t wide single family houses are as similar as you're going to get to those types of houses and I I I feel like that's probably appropriate um over there um and then my question for staff will be is eaw going to be required for this or is that covered through the other adjacent developments no I I believe so I'm going to have to check with the engineering staff that are eaw experts but not thrh I I don't remember the threshold off F and honestly it's your it's close it's potentially close it depends on the mix of of units yeah um cuz that that would flush out a traffic control or a traffic impact study um you know and and the the drain tile thing is a it's a great Point um you know in my day job we deal with uh new development on former Eggland and it's one of those things where you don't know where that drain tile is and it can have a lot of impact and there really is you said it right Sarah there's no way to find out there really isn't I mean that that went in the ground one Thursday afternoon in 1925 and it went where it needed to go um and and whether it got sketched on a napkin I don't know um you know and it's it's something where it's you know you got to hope that when the contractor hits it and finds something and and pulls clay out of a hole they go gee that might have been a drain tile line and then hopefully reaches out to staff and find a way to accommodate that drainage but if they don't I it's but I I do think that that might have a good good explanation for some of the drainage issues which which sound pretty widespread that that property has at least two iterations of drain I'm sure yeah maybe more those are the only any ones that I know any other comments uh I got some questions but I guess if not to pull you back up here Tom but part of my questions have to do with just making sure I understand your total density and unit counts and so you know staff St stated in the report that they were talking 390 to 496 units total um but yet on the concept plan it says 232 what's it leaving out on the concept plan and and I think I I'm not exactly sure and if you even look the concept plan I don't there's uh I didn't catch that there's actually even an error so if you went to option one you're looking at 190 homes that would have the 65 F feet in the back option two has 215 with town homes so if you were to take like that number and and let's just say you you had 200 260 you know apartments and and where I'm going I can see right maybe apartment isn't is it a you know would it change if it said it was assisted living right we're just talking about uh more of a density um but if you did that you're maybe talking for 70 to 500 Max but if you really look and take like if you took option one and and option five you're talking 230 Lots in the whole 90 Acres it's not even hitting three per acre right okay so with that in mind that's what I was trying to understand a little bit with some of the density is like when I look at that northeast corner that's uh north of or even adjacent to those six single family homes m uh I know Nick said 65t wide Lots I'd be I think I you get that little bit as a self-contained Development Area meaning that it's separate from everything else because you got the braver and trails it's budding up to it's its own little confined area that might be a good place for your 55 foot 50 to 55 foot Villas um cuz they like they being contained in their own HOAs and all that kind of stuff so I personally think 55 uh would work well there um I think with the rest of the development you know how much density we approve ultimately that's going to be you know the console's appetite for a PUD the way this is presented because I don't think we have a zoning code that's going to allow the ensity you're suggesting and and exactly I you're going a p that and so when you're in front of council I guess I would ask them about that question because that's going to dictate whether you can even put 45t Lots in and I get why you'd want to put them in because it makes it more affordable um obviously the more homes we have the more we can pay for upgrad but the more homes we have the more issues we have with traffic so like Peter was saying it's kind of the chicken and egg what came first that was Nick oh Nick that's sorry yes um commercial I would say that I wouldn't be against some but I think you got too much I'd be in favor of multif family taking over maybe half of that um like a three-story multif family building um but again I and I think the audience might appreciate this Tom and I don't know if you have any feedback to give them but I don't think the multifam is going to happen immediately I think that that's gon to be like a few years away because let's just say market conditions aren't the greatest right now um with interest rates and stuff for multif family it's not saying it might happen right away but the idea of being multi family shouldn't think that all this traffic is coming immediately this is could be easily a few years away before it's there um so I do think that like Nick said that that is a good multif family area um and you know commercial like I said a gas station a strip center one strip center I think is would be you know maybe two but I don't think it's can handle a lot of commercial myself either um so I think like but you hair salon pizza joints um various food places I think there's you know who we're not hearing from tonight besides the two people on the commission are the people from Sundance woods and greens of how much they would value this cuz they're Dayton residents too and maybe they would value the commercial more than other people and I I wish some of them would give some feedback too because that pretty darn close to the Maple Grove commercial area you know what I mean I I have I have some feedback on that yeah I'd love to hear that then so I you know I from from the standpoint I think Sarah said it I like the mix of housing types that you're proposing here and and kind of where they're going um I think the six Lots on Fernbrook we need to pay some special attention to and maybe it's a separate Workshop right here with Planning Commission yourself and those lots just what what can we do to there this is really unique that we're doing this right around them and you know if in some in some instances I know one of them said it is it just worth buying them out and and and making it all part of it or is it or can we work with them and keep them in their homes and not displace them any more than they already have been um I get it the people across Fernbrook on the other side like Keith are are going to have a lot of issues as well they're not going to be direct as directly impacted from some of the things that are being proposed but they are going to be impacted and I think if we can resolve it on the with the the ones on the west from the concerns I've heard the ones on the East should benefit as well um the commercial I did some some polling at the bus stop the last couple days with different residents on on on my street um the neighborhood commercial they they like the idea of having another option of something to do in the neighborhood whether you said hair salon pizza joint do anyone even deliver to you food to you guys we do we do get deliveries to our neighborhood um they they like to they like the idea of maybe a a gas station was was hit and miss with with who who I talked to but and I think if you had the part it has to be uh quick trips or it's a grocery store right it's it's not a holiday you know what I mean um and and and that's just thought somebody needs to get something quick you know short something for but it's just a thought right it's it's a discussion I I've hear some stuff you know when I'm at at Sundance so I'm that's what it's great that's what we're here having right you know I like said I don't have I don't have somebody hey I got this gas station I want to build it right Y and and so they from what I heard from what I heard from my my neighbors that I I I asked them you know if if we were if we were to approve or we were to approve something there what what would you like to see and it was I mean it it was exactly what you have here as far as types of uses um the biggest thing I think that I would be opposed against and just I'm throwing it out there cuz I I think almost everyone in the room would agree is no drive-throughs no no drive-throughs I mean a bank ATM is different and that's that's probably acceptable but and to be honest the engineer just like hey I did a couple right put it there you know don't don't know and so and and I agree and and yet everything would have to get approved right before you know so like I'm to build these buildings without getting approv um but any other ideas of of a building or something would be and the other thing I would say with this is you know it it feels like looking at it with the building uses and the parking obviously feels really small but you know Tom being up at Sundance how many people in that in those neighborhoods walk or take their golf cart or bike to these areas and um just making sure as you're you're looking at this we're we're making those those Trail connections through the neighborhood and and I think as much as we work like 113th 114th whatever you call the road right there's going to need to be some major Trail there especially if you'd have commercial you know I put the trail through the woods I'm hoping Maple Grove finishes so that you know El Creek will finish and supposedly the trail to the park now is going to go under that bridge and Maple Grove you know if that would happen it would be a huge asset to the neighborhood all the neighborhoods you know all along there um I think you could ask the staff I've I've had discussions with them about the owners in the west I mean you know I've heard everybody sit here you know I'm 60 years old I was born in Dayton my family's farmed here six Generations right so it's not that I don't have some care I don't really you know appreciate some people saying like I'm this big developer right so we do you know if you went to Sundance Woods I require four S LP not any other neighborhoods in the city has that you know so I do do some looking and I'm more than happy to work with all the I'm not interested in buying the people's on those six homes but to to work with them I think if you ask staff that's where I just mentioned I said hey if you look I've looked all their garages aren't in front of the house I don't know if it's ideal or not I'm just willing here to throw the option today what happens if Fernbrook does go to four lane road right and the homes are there I look at drainage you know obviously everything's engineered so is there storm sewer running across the back there and we drain you know gr it so that water isn't in their backyard right you know I do know all the engineers look at that but I'm open to work with that you know thing is just to say if staff wants to work involved be open-minded do they have another septic site right so if septic fails I think it's just Now's the Time to to sit order with does it does it mean it have to happen today no but I'm definitely not blind to the thing I wouldn't you know wouldn't want to do something today and then go wow you know five years down the road 10 years down the road we should have made that plan m so a question I have is I hear a lot you know the traffic on Fernbrook we can't make it go down like that's not that's not one of the options is to have less traffic on Fernbrook even if we build other roads we're bringing more people in right like I don't feel like traffic will ever go down on Fernbrook we can maybe mitigate it so it doesn't go up much more if we build other roads but like we're just going to get more people and so at a certain point it goes to forlane can go to four like would those six houses even get to stay there if FR Brook goes to four lane if it went to four lane it'd be tough because four lane comes with Trails or a trail at least on one side of the road they put a median in or what you probably so those I mean those houses are gone then and but that also cuts into your that cuts into your plan as well so access control on County Roads is important and driveways on on a County Road are are difficult for safety and and for traffic flow along that roadway so but I just want for the people in the audience in particular who are thinking like we got to fix firm Brook the solution the county might come at is it's a fourl road and we're taking your house like that might be the solution the county has so like yes we have to work on it but just that might be the answer and that's not a good answer either but well in the next point right I mean I tried I I tried so much that intersection at Rush Creek is not the way we wanted but we really at the end just had no control of it and so you you do right trying to work through with the the county but I I mean I've been here for you know way before any you guys are up in a lot of councils right and was talking what do you do with traffic let's just say this development doesn't happen you think Champlin and not you know ramsy all that area man those aren't building that Road's still going to keep build you know if you don't build or not so the one thing I think is the the roundabout it's going to at least slow traffic down nobody's going 60 by those houses I mean um my my dad's 92 now I stay with him some cuz he and I got to back out on that road right I get it you know you got to round them out another one at least it's going to slow down is it going to probably make it like the neighborhood you have in in Sundance greens that no but somewhat you know when you buy on a county road too you know yeah and roundabouts intersection control changes like that do have an effect on traffic speeds and and you know the Count's got to abide by state statute on how they set their speed limits but you know you have the possibility when roundabouts start to go into the intersection control to reduce the speed limit on those roadways and then you know maybe maybe four lanes isn't needed I don't know what henan county's ultimate plan is there maybe staff does but you know ultimately I recognize henan County's got a lot of priorities it is a very big County with a lot of residents and you know it I just don't I don't know that this is high on their priority list given everything else that they have to take into consideration and I think that's why it's important to reach out to the commissioner that commissioner is specific to this area um and it and is you know he is he is supposed to vouch for the constituents in this area um as opposed to those that are deep in Minneapolis uh you know there's plenty of needs in Minneapolis there's plenty of needs in blou plenty of needs in motanka um it's again got priority the on the bike trail you know even when it came down to just no tunnel flashing light they're like there's no houses here well I mean here look we got a layout but they're not built they're not here yet that was our answer you know and conversation is kind of over so it does seem crazy that you can't plan ahead but it doesn't seem like that and it sounds bad too but traffic issues just the risk of a traffic incident just the risk of a crash is not enough to get henan County's attention unfortunately and I'm not advocating for crashes to occur at all please don't go crash your car but when when henan County goes to look for additional funding outside funding grants that's how a lot of projects get accelerated is through grants they move up on a priority list because outside funding comes in a lot of that outside funding is based on uh existing traffic issues that are measurable and those unfortunately are crashes any more feedback for you have one comment that came through just now I don't if you want me to read it or not it's up to you guys it's to the chair and let's let's just make it part of the the minutes okay and last uh if you know if you keep exploring commercial the one thing I would say is that you see how the two intersections don't line up here yeah I think that if there is commercial there's going to be enough traffic coming in is that that should be an intersection that lines up so you can have the appropriate turning lanes and and and and agreed and and uh so yeah I do that and I sure want all I'm not looking to landlock any of the West people you or the on the east side they West you know but west side of Fernbrook and so if there's an open discussion and like I said I I um not not you know not against that I'll I'll say my pece yeah sorry no it's okay I mean everybody's had such great conversation it's good to listen um I appreciate your demeanor I appreciate you coming in with multiple plans for us to look at and for the residents to look at with the idea of yeah this will develop right and so how does it want to develop and getting good convers conversation going right and that's exactly what you've done tonight um you've heard a lot from up here from out there um I think you've probably learned a lot about kind of what your next steps could be um I think ringing the the existing homes with large buildings is not a good idea right small residential up against them um giving any kind of buffer you can the Sundance greens is you know long firm broke there is fantastic with how much space there is the trees that are there and how much it's already growing um so whatever can be done to just buffer right and I agree with Darren like I think a little bit of like commercial could be good there I mean Tastefully it would be neighborhood commercial so I don't think you need big flashy signs and lots of lights right up on a corner you could tuck it back a little bit you could even screen it from the road a little bit because it's serving this community it's not serving people that are you know going to divert off of 81 to come up to get to this quick trip or whatever it might be right it's about this community so you know whatever you could do to just kind of maybe pull it off that intersection just a little bit farther than you would typically do um something like that but I would think that's still worth exploring I mean I've been trying almost every single media I've been a commissioner to get a quick trip or something up instead of the rain tree here right something where you can go and get those quick groceries and something because um yeah we're close to Champ we're close to map over close to Rogers but those are all big box things and they're they suck to get in and out of right like yeah I go to Target now right you got to get but it you got to walk way in park yard away and yeah exactly and the milk is all the way in the back cuz they want you to buy other things right so having those quick convenient things is an amenity to the city right and so finding a way to Tastefully do that working with the existing residents and working with the future residents or you know the Sundance Woods people and like what works there how does that work um I mean obviously traffic I I don't think I have to say anything more about traffic that's been said uh I like the mix of of units I like what you've done in the other developments with mix of units uh I know Pathways and green spaces are always part of your neighborhoods and just encourage you to continue to do that an extension of kind of what's been done in the area already so uh I appreciate again the the options for us to look at and to talk about and you know I think there's a lot of possibilities here so appreciate it thank you thanks all right eight f one more two more two more F can we disagree that we're going to table the last one about the aprons do the aprons have to be decided it's an easy one already talked about it suppose we can just say yeah we talked about it the chair and the commission want to take a recess or just keep it going through fire way keep I got a Snickers bar I'm extra water you want another one one more joy I'm doing another alond Joy yeah we got I gave you my we got a couple more Snickers that's why I Justified it cuz I feel like two Snickers is equal to one [Music] Snickers who is the athl for energy which is approaching I forget our hourly bra is drastically right now all right John are you ready we need the conversation to move out to the hallway please thank you thank you uh second to the last item so this is concept plan for Dayton territorial in East French Lake I spelled East wrong I apologize for that um okay so applicant is py homes we have Dean Lauder and Haley Daly and Dean had prepared his his own uh PowerPoint so I'm just going to give it to him you want me to run it or you want I you tell me when to go to the next oh there you are backward thank you thank you Mr chair members of the commission uh as John said I'm Dean Lauder um I work in land planning and entitlement with py homes here in the Minnesota Market uh with me also is Haley daily that is her name Haley Daly um and uh we're we're pleased to be in front of you tonight you've been gracious with your time it's a late night um so I'll try to move along pretty quickly and be respectful of your time so we're just going to have a short presentation do a little introduction talk about um what we've observed out of the city plans when we've reviewed them and and how we think our approach marries up nicely with that and then have a summary um py homes we started uh in the 1950s or so uh we are a national home builder um we're in I think about 29 different markets across the the country uh we do focus on consumer-driven designs uh for quite a a while there was actually like a warehouse that we had in um the Chicago area where we actually would build homes inside the warehouse and then invite people in to tour them and tell us what they liked and what they didn't like and a lot of that feedback modified uh our designs that we we offer in this market and others and in Minnesota we we operate under py homes and you also may be familiar with some of our uh age restricted retirement communities called Del webs uh those are way more prevalent in the southern parts of the country um but we are starting to introduce those in in some areas here in the Twin Cities uh you're familiar with this site I'm aware of that uh north of territorial west of East French Lake um or west of e East French Lake and then um east of territorial Trail neighborhood when we looked at uh the city's comp plan uh we saw that it's um guided ldr or low density uh we took a look at the code uh and uh tried to comply as best as we could with it to make this a a straight zoning application and not a PUD uh we have a density um towards the low end of the guided density the range being 2 to 5 units an acre we're at 2.37 and the current areas in your current staged area for sewer proposed use is uh 42 single family homes um it's an it's uh existing zoning is egg but guided low density as I said um just a little over 17 uh Acres total uh and again we have that density of 2.37 units an acre um this is our concept plan that we've assembled uh trying to navigate a couple different limitations there of course there's the gas main easement uh that we need to look at uh we are having the site um a wetland delineation formed so we're still still actually collecting a lot of good information through our due diligence process but uh at this time uh this is what we're looking at for an overall layout and design uh they'd be 62t wide Lots actually the average lot width is a little over 67 ft wide um we have uh uh originally we proposed a Tot Lot in there and of course I'm aware that there is a Tot Lot very nearby so likely the redundancy is um probably not necessary uh so we'd be actually open to working with City staff on uh if we would like to program something else there or or um just not have that uh amenity as part of it we are we would have uh enhanced Landscaping along East uh French Lake Road and a little bit on territorial uh as you'll notice one of the sellers would like to retain their home so there's and that's in the lower Southwest corner of the site um and so what we're showing here is um that retained house we have talked with staff um and suggested perhaps they can maintain their access on territorial in the event that it would sell and maybe be subdivided into two other Lots uh uh City staff asked for us to show that access would be possible to be brought through internally into uh the proposed development so that's that's what that kind of brown uh Drive is showing it's not intended to be built initially it's just showing that that can be required by the city in the future if that uh retained parcel subdivides you know we we obviously have some open space there uh we would um have a construction of some trail connectivity there and we'd have sidewalks in the in the neighborhood um I already touched on the existing driveway and the access uh this is just a little bit closer shot for you to to see that proposed um element and just thought maybe you'd want to see what these homes look like um and some uh basic data on them we actually would be proposing to build them with a third stall so the homes that we would be actually constructing and and um platting out in our pre plat application would have a third stall so we'd be complying with your uh minimum garage square footage and keep in mind you know we'll we'll have several different homes and within uh say five six different homes there's another five six different variations of each of those so we really get a nice differentiation between uh the front features uh there'll be differences and in siding material like shake and lap like you're seeing there Stone uh is an option too uh for an added element and feature you can see some of these get start pushing you know 3,000 square ft and that that does not include basement so the summary is um your comp plan has guided the site for low density we're proposing a low density um residential neighborhood uh we comply with your R3 Zone as best as we can tell hopefully John won't Sur pris me and say different when he comments at all about this um we've got some really nice homes that I think will fit well with uh the existing neighborhood that's to the immediate West and with that I would just stand for any questions you might have can we go back one slide just to have the just to have the plan up there on the screen thank you MH any questions for I guess normally we'd ask Staff first but oh yeah should to see if staff has any comment staff any comments from staff regarding the it's late um so you know a couple things that the staff has opposition to the at the road access on East uh French Lake um we like that the existing home driveway is being rerouted on into the neighborhood versus onto territorial um what else uh unknown factors related to if there's white land um that's not shown on the concept plan it's normal that you're you're not necessarily going to have a wetland delineation at at this stage in the design so with most concept plans it will change by the time it gets to preliminary mhm yeah the two other ones that I can think of right off top of the head just with staff comments was we like to match the Aesthetics with the previous development with territorial Trail as in you know Winder roads or curvier roads whatever to match the Aesthetics of the other development that's already there so it looks like one continuous development and then the top lot which we'd heard already mentioned that we'd like something different there just based on the fact there's already a top lot in the low development so that's the ones that I can think of right off top of my head the uh the road that you'd like not on East French l Road is that due to the proximity to territory Trail would it be okay if they shifted it further south and was an straight extension of the road running to South if they thought it was necessary or the staff kind of feel like they don't want a road period on East French Lake Road preference would be to not have a connection at all just being that that will eventually be a busier and busier Road just to limit the accesses um if it were to exist on there potentially moving its South to better space to if you will before between Territorial Road and territorial Trail um but preference would be to eliminate it all together and bring all of the traffic internally um other things uh Three Rivers Park District is playing a trail on the north side of territorial um and then we'd like or staff is suggesting a trail on the west side of East French Lake Road somehow connecting the trail connecting up to kind of what uh right essentially making a loop around the development so that if people in the development want to take um as typically people want to take a loop route when they're walking on a trail or um sidewalk we'd create a loop around the entire development because right now that trail dives into the development out about the gas line easement you would say continue that South to territorial to line up do that additionally but if they want we like the one around it so I can maybe connect it up all the way down to territorial Trail on the South Side there y on Territorial Road so this is a public hearing so y all right uh we will open the public hearing at 10:57 anyone I I do know we have a a letter from a resident we have two I've gotten received two more since we started this meeting two more since okay and I and chair I probably about 15 comments on questions and about on Zoom about 15 I bet on on Zoom online and then two people with their raids anyone in the audience first all right online online let's all right um we'll start with [Music] Naomi you are unmuted we've got a couple more down here if you need them Naomi can you speak so we can see if we can hear you we got one more down here if you need them I'm good Che we going be here for another hour um all right we can't hear you so I'm just going to put you back to mute maybe you can come back to you again minute right um um I I do have I believe uh an email from Naomi britz if that's the same name I don't yeah I don't have a last name I just have a first name so um we have Hoy you are now unmuted hi there can you hear me yes yes hi thanks everybody I appreciate the late night meeting but perhaps maybe going forward if we have such a heavy agenda to potentially up two meetings just to ensure that we can have all residents present but uh I know you all are trying your best um but on the territorial uh and East FR L East French Lake Road development I live in this neighborhood and I'm actually the house that's right behind the developer or the property owner that decide to keep the house and the 1.25 Acres um the first question is just that I understand that the that staff recommends that we don't have any further entry points or access points East punch Link Road but looking at um looking at the property itself the development there's 42 homes 43 including the property owner that's keeping the property and I don't know the exact amount of vehicles that are averaging out per home but let's just say it's 1.5 to two vehicles mean that's a that's over 80 Vehicles 85 vehicles for just homeowners on top of deliveries and buses and all those things that come with development is is there is the reason to keep it internal to just prevent additional access to the Stake Road yes answer yes I guess just for for the sake of time for everyone who's who's speaking let's just you certainly can ask questions and we'll just try to address them in in the answers at the and um so okay so okay so that's one and then just I'd like to know what the plan is in we that tree line that is between the property owner and the current development um the tree line itself meanders throughout properties that are currently existing in territorial Trails as well as the property that's being developed um these are trees that have been there for quite some time and we've seen that replanting trees hasn't been as successful as we'd hop for in our current development um so the question there would be what what type of easement do you plan on providing so that you don't have to tear down those trees in order to build a home um and then since we're just back my questions the third question is um with py homes building these homes will this be part of the territorial Trail homeowners association and then the last question is in regards to the top lot I know the staff has mentioned that it wouldn't be redundant to have two top Lots but um but is there any consideration of of a sports park or courts or basketball courts there those are my four questions thank you thank you Zach did we have someone else on sorry trying to type back and stop the clock and um we have one more person iPhone you are hi can you hear me yes name and address hi this is Jennifer bodette um you did receive a letter from me I also live in territorial Trail um and I'm on the board of directors for the HOA there um uh most of these questions are repeat and so I won't actually ask the question I maybe we'll just give a little bit more context um the entry point on East French Lake Road uh is a concern of multiple residents we have a very windy and single thorough Fair through our development um it's basically like a big horseshoe shape um most of the 122 homes that exist in territorial Trail are directly on uh that one road and there are hundreds of children um so I just Echo the concerns about the additional traffic through there there's very low visibility because of the windiness um of them and there's often cars parked on the sides and um they're already fair Fairly narrow so uh we would very much be in favor of keeping an access point of the new development um whether it be further south or whatever um as far as the Tot Lot uh Echo the concerns uh one of the concerns that we have is that our neighborhood in general is very isolated from any other uh Dayton Parks we have no safe passageway for our kids to get um across East fench Lake over to the lar area we can't send them on territorial there's no sidewalks um and so right now the only amenity that we have is geared at children you know five seven and younger so putting a basketball court or something like that uh in that area would be uh not only great for the many kids that are over those ages but also adults would get uh recreational use out of it as well uh and then I also have the question about them joining the HOA um we have 122 homes and it is already hard to keep up with our neighborhood uh with our dues and everything uh just with 122 homes so I cannot imagine um an HOA being dedicated to only the 42 homes here it just would make a lot more sense if we could share the basketball court and the Tot Lot um and bring fold those homes in and just make it truly one development and that's all I had thank you I have about 15 things to read in if you'd like otherwise I can put them in the minutes what we like to do chair um can we summarize them and do they provide new feedback any new yes any new do you want do you want to scan them um I've got a couple questions chose I got a couple questions for py based on what's what's been asked and and then you can scan them we can get to them we won't close the public hearing just yet so yeah um I guess the the the one about the HOA um I don't live in an HOA but I'm somewhat familiar with at least how lenar has done them being over in Sundance Woods um and hearing about Sundance screens is it is it similar with py you guys own the HOA during buildout and then transfer ownership to the Residence at that point yeah uh Mr chair um generally transition will take over or uh will happen at about 75% build out of the neighborhood uh it's when there's enough residents present they can um a meeting is facilitated by our staff um an election is held and then a board is is actually elected and then that board continues to work with um our staff within the development team um and so it's kind of this orderly transition but it usually transfers at about 75% buildup okay um and with that um I know ho take care of different amenities within the neighborhoods are you familiar with the the territorial Trail neighborhoods HOA and what they were supposedly respons responsible for I'm familiar with the the neighborhood it actually is a a py neighborhood I thought it was yep and uh it predates me though okay um and they might have amended things and and they may have amended some things but um I'm sure that the ho8 like takes care of the Tot Lot for example and is budgeting for ultimately replacing that equipment for example um and so the the question was asked I think a couple times about whether this neighborhood would join that HOA and we're certainly open to that having that conversation if that's if the question's being asked you know would you Jo want to join the answer is we would definitely want to um entertain that because we could add 402 Lots into that HOA which would help with the do structure yep okay I I just think that helps maybe clarify it for for those who are concerned about the HOA mhm um uh side of things um it seems like they're in favor of it and you guys would be open to it as well yep um so I would say work on that okay um another question this might be more for staff um because I don't know uh territorial trail to the west of here we've obviously got some dead end roads and maybe you you know the answer too but do we have that ghost ploted out it was it was platted in the original concept as well as this area when territorial Trail came in it was it was Ghost platted at that time so where where I'm getting at is do we have another connection to Territorial Road in the the future for this development um neither one um the the area we're looking at tonight was also ghost pled and show um substantially similar to what's there without the connection to East French Lake Road okay similarly to the the West all three of those stub roads connect together if you will but no additional connections to territorial okay I see the concerns of the residents of connecting those roads as far as feedback on the concept as far as connecting to East French Lake Road um with that being said you know when you come into this neighborhood either from east french l or territorial it is is your your first right or left turn and you're pretty much into this development pretty quick so it's probably not as um as concerning maybe as I was initially thinking yeah I'm agreeing completely with the residents but now when I look at this it's kind of like it's not that far in it was already planned for that connection too obviously because of the road stubs right so I mean this is something that was intentional that there'd be a continuation of those Road m y but not necessarily I think if I understand you're right Jason the connection to East FR Road was not part of that ghost plot it was not but I I actually just brought it up and I I do have a correction I apologize there is a second connection shown to the West okay um for the other one but um again not not an additional connection for what we're looking at tonight okay and you know I know mentioned I know staff mentioned that maybe they'd like to see a continuation of the windy roads but I think you got to work with what you got here meaning that there's not a whole lot to work with when you lay it out different ways it's not like you're working with a lot of acres here and you got a pipeline to deal with my bigger concern would be the actual styling of the house and making sure that it matches the existing styling like the because it is basically one subdivision and so to have the houses switch style because I drove through it today it's a beautiful neighborhood right um and your new designs are close but not quite and I feel like it's one of those things where they're almost too close but not quite so it' be a little jarring you're like wait a minute this doesn't quite look like this but it kind of looks like this so I would I windy roads not that important to me matching stylistically so it looks like one neighborhood that's more important to me Mr chair may I offer something for consideration there um so in the in the existing neighborhood there's actually two different home lineups in there uh there's the villa and then these are terms we use internally but there there's um it's a it's a five category of home which is kind of a a larger move up you know your kids are getting older you need more Elbow Room kind of a house uh The Villa uh and I actually built one of those myself um you know is actually you know targeting an empty nester MH um and so that's two very different home lineups and two very different buyers if you will um the homes that we're proposing are are actually another five it's actually another move up type I need more living space the kids are getting older kind of a home so while they do look a little different they are actually in the same category of home with what you're looking at when you first enter into territorial Trail yeah I would just talk about the design details like as far as matching sighting and matching like the you have they have the craft details and the rof lines and they have the Craftsman style columns but the columns you showed on your designs were a little bit different like those are the those that's what I meant like it's a picky little nitpicky thing but those Styles not necessary the size but that actually goes back to the Tot Lot if you're designing homes that are mostly for people with older kids or empty nesters a t l doesn't make much sense period in the original community and it makes even less sense now um so I agree with what the residents are asking is yes there needs to be a park but if you built homes for people with older kids then the park should be for older kids would be my my thought there mhm one of the the suggestions and and I know you're dealing with the gas line we have it running through our neighborhood too um and it runs through some large two larger Park like lots that people own and and um you don't have it divided on you know the side lots of homes here but like it is in my neighborhood but one of the suggestions maybe I don't know what's feasible to put over over it but it I heard a basketball court maybe uh someone was interested in something like that maybe that's an option to put over this you know something fairly inexpensive to replace and remove if the gas line does need to come in um look for options to to program that space could be the Outfield of a of a something sure yeah um or a field for the kids to run and so yeah and I had a little bit of concern with lot 40 when I was looking at a little closer just because the entire backyard is in the gas line easement um it's just it's not the end of the world but you know if they put fences up accessory structures whatever they're at risk of can you get a deck on it right can you get a deck on it um and that really stuck out on that lot and and I think maybe some of the wiggling of the road uh that is missing on is that Comstock you might be able to buy you a little bit more depth in that rear yard I don't know um you know I think that's one of the thing that jumped out at me uh similar to staff is there was a very clear character to the roadways in the existing neighborhood uh it was very clear there I don't know if it was for traffic calming or what it was um but a Meandering roadway was apparently the intent um and you can tell these don't really do that I think you know maybe the culdesac does um you know a little bit but uh maybe a little bit of Wiggle on Comstock there would would give you a little bit more room in the rear yard a lot 40 so I'm going to disagree with staff on on the connection to East French Lake I don't think it needs to be where it is I think it needs to move further south about where the gas line is um but I think I think this neighborhood does need a another connection point to to um either French Lake or or Territorial and I'm assuming French Lake is the of the two that's the better one um this neighborhood is tough to drive if you're not familiar with it and uh and familiar with how it's it's laid out um I Echo concerns of the residence of cars being parked and children playing in the streets and and you know you're coming around curve after curve after curve and I get it it's part of the design of the neighborhood and um but that's that's actually why I would say there needs to be another connection is um both egress and egress for the neighborhood if there's an emergency down in that that lower corner um you know how you know how how much longer is it going to take a em uh a EMT to get down there um or an emergency vehicle so um based on the the design of the roads we should consider how long it would take and um just from that standpoint alone I somewhere right around the gas line feels like the right point it also you know we we don't I don't believe we have any neighbors on the west side of French Lake but maybe we do um who've made comments but the where the road is today it's going right into someone's driveway in front yard um and they're going to get headlights all day long in that in that house or all night long in that house of people when people leave that neighborhood so shifting it just a little further south would would alleviate a lot of that south of the pipeline south of the pipeline yep uh pretty close to territorial put it right where the the pipeline the pipeline I mean put it right over the pipeline and bring it out can't really put it over the pipeline yeah you can I mean the road's Crossing it now in a whole bunch of different locations I would I would say though that you probably don't love the fact that the road runs parallel dead smack you know almost parallel right through the middle of that instead of you know cing it really quick um it's a short stretch yeah it's not great I mean if you think about our neighborhood Peter I don't think there's any roads that they they cross it quickly and they're out of it they don't really kind that they generally just have to cross it if you start running down it you're you get in trouble when the pipeline has to do any maintenance you're kind of so yeah you can be in it but yeah I don't know to to what extent they're okay with a parallel alignment down the center line or or near Center Line of of that well and I think it's I think it's lot 11 or 12 I mean you could you could make it right there and have it come out yeah you just lose 12 yeah and I I get where Peter's coming from with the recommendation that against staff on the East French Lake Road connection but I guess the more I've looked at it I've gotten comfortable without it um so I just wanted to share that but I get where he's coming from because I was there first too I think moving it South provides more opportunity for Lots 12 to 37 to actually use it I think where it's located now you think the traffic distribution out of here they're most likely going to 81 right so if if Lots you know 12 through 37 which is the southern you know everything south of that gas line they're probably not going to go North to then take a right to go east and then go south on French Lake then go down to territorial then take a right and then go to 81 they're probably going to zip through 110th to Territorial and hang a right but I think moving it a little bit further self makes it a little bit more of a an appealing option for them to use yeah um I just don't see them going all the way to the northern boundary like it is now out of their way um to to you know get out of there you know especially that deep in that culdesac for sure I think they're they're going to continue La go left and go to um territorial Trail to hit Territorial Road maybe moving it South does influence some of those people to come out on East French Lake but I don't think I in summary I don't think a ton of people are going to use that connection anyways I do agree if you're going to have it it's got to be sold but yeah one of the things that came up in the comments that we got was about Territorial Road in 81 and need to light there um is there any talk on that that's not directly attached to this but this will influence it true county has a lot of money they're just sitting on pockets of money just not spending in this District yeah so goad uh yeah uh chair and members of the commission the so we did one we did a study on this area came up with a plan in design essentially pitched it to henen County and they said that that's nice but that's about all it's going to go forward with so we've done our due diligence to provide them with some information correct from wrong days but essentially they said that's really great but we don't have any plan for doing anything like that at this moment um but we've done the again the general idea is create the roundabout that's where the other connection and the other West half be connected into would be the other half of that roundabout as in a four- leg roundabout there at that corner and then um get connect up into 81 with the connection point and preferred light if we can do it but and and just residents who still may be listening or or watching tomorrow um there there is uh there is right away provided at the intersection when we did the the town homeall homes across the way we did secure right away to make a cleaner connection to 81 than what it is today and not everyone may know that so yeah re a realigned alignment 281 Peak behind the curtain a little bit though from an engineering standpoint I don't see hanapin County ever saying that that intersection meets signal warrants but you know there there's a whole there's a list of things that they got to go through whether or not it meets the needs for a signal and it's missing a lot of them um you have a couple comments I'll summarize them they're very similar to what you've heard again they're all very detailed and informational but they're all generally the same keep the mature trees um join the HOA try to get another access point if we can and the top lot turn into a p a pickleball court basketball court something other than what's there projected essentially is what I got again there a lot of detailed comments about specific things but um Wetlands they're concerned about trees and so on and so forth and then they had one comment on 81 and ter torial and what are you doing at that intersection so got emails from Naomi britz and Ashley Turner and much that is already been repeated I guess one difference is to ask for more manicured uh open space areas versus natural areas and I think well to some extent you'll get that with the the gas line at least in the way it's laid out when you said manicur you mean mode so I think that's a good conversation for py to have with the HOA because because they're going to be the ones taking care of it there was and um there was some comments I want I want py to be aware of them um in one of the emails that we received about the the grading of the Lots um the the maintenance of the the the mold areas outside of just the grass that was put in didn't survive the the mode the the lots are lump and and I I mean we're dealing with it and I I deal with it in lenar with lenar and my neighborh and my lot uh just down the road and um the the top soil is you know it's it's Clay top soil that's already been stripped prior to us or prior to you coming in and developing it so anything you guys can do to help better better those lots okay um would be beneficial thank you any other comments on this one there's one additional comment online would you like to hear it chair sure okay they' like to speak oh yeah we we haven't close the public hearing so one more comment you are uh un muted hi can you hear me yes yep again I I appreciate um just the consideration about the point up at East Lake and I just wanted to um further iterate just in regards to that difficulty of intersection on 81 with territorial a lot of folks do avoid that turn or the intersection during peak hours because you can't turn west or east rather on 81 because of the traffic so a lot of that traffic actually goes uh East on territorial now that the territorial that's open up with the roundabout and then being for the neighborhood Parkway intersection so a lot of traffic is actually being diverted currently because of that the congestion 81 and territorial on the territorial so having an access entry point to the new development south of the gas line I think would actually help uh and would actually be utilized more so and help deter some of the fa from going through the one going through the current development and you can see that that that that does have a Meandering Road on 1110 and that road there for those who've driven it those roads are very very narrow someone had mentioned it earlier if you park a car on that road delivery trucks buses even the fire trucks can not get through there without driving onto the curb or driving over the island the center Island the C at so I just do appreciate you considering that really would be beneficial for the neighborhood that's the currently existing neighborhood as well as a new neighborhood thank you thank you thank you I think with that it is 11:25 we're going to close the public hearing um I think you got enough comments and feedback on this thank you for your time and patience Mr thank you thank you thanks for sticking it out late with us we do have one more item otherwise you might be home tomorrow right item number 8G or ordinance Amendment driveway aprons um John is there a a pressing to get this up it's advertis is public hearing oh it's a public hearing all right I'm good okay okay there we go um driveway apron so we we've got quite the audience here to try to make it quick um we've talked previously both at the plan commission level and the council level a few months ago about ordinance amendments uh one on require if to whether or not to require concrete driveway aprons and two uh widen garages and and the consensus was we're not going to mess with garages we're going to look at apron So for anybody that's watching this still um a concrete apron is not necessarily what you wear in the kitchen it it is also so what you would have in front of the garage so this is a concrete obviously where it meets asphalt the intention here is that you're going to have probably a little bit more stress on the driveway and so you you would have concrete versus asphalt um as we've discussed in the previous meetings during the construction process um the excav excavators will come in and dig um trenches for the garage foundation or home Foundation um you it's always a bigger hole than what the actual Foundation is and so the construction company will fill that hole it doesn't always get compacted appropriately and over time um it settles and on top of that is your driveway which your driveway then settles and now you've got a speed bump going into your garage uh so the question for the commission is do you want to require a concrete driveway apron at the time of construction you want to say answer yes or no this is this is a public this is a public hearing so we're going to open it at 11:28 um and I guess we can have some discussion in case someone pops up I'll just talk first I I think it's a betterment to I think they fall asleep um I think this is a betterment to home construction because you will have settlement issues regardless asphalt well there's nothing you can do with asphalt other than cut it out and redo it repay it and then pour concrete you're probably putting that back in yeah and so an apron at least provides a little bit more structure it's usually tied to the foundation on the one side so it's going to tip and then you can have it mud jack for way cheaper than digging out and free pouring it and I think they just look cleaner and make that front of the home look nicer so I think it serves a functional purpose and an aesthetic purpose I I'm in support of it as well although I I hate that the underlying reason for it is bad construction methods I wish there was a way to fix that from the building code perspective and from an inspection perspective there's I'm I'm of the opinion there's just not so something like this I feel like doesn't hurt and and your point about you can much more easily fix this by mudjacking it so if this does settle which it probably will um you can mudjack it fairly a lot a lot cheaper than you could cut out settled asphalt remove it bring in a little more gravel and then put concrete back into it mudjacking will be a far cheaper repair um but again I I absolutely hate that we have to do something like this for something that is a workmanship issue yeah um I guess I'm I think I think I'm against it from a standpoint I have one that's concrete and it's settled an inch and a half and it cracks when it settles to so you know if you're going to start red and mine happens to be um and this is where so mine's completely concrete driveway so I'm curious to see if you guys think that impacts things differently but see even when you have a completely so say someone skips the concrete apron and just goes a complete concrete driveway it's a whole new issue now when it starts settling because it's it's not like it's not mine's not attached to the foundation cuz it's sinking and most of them that I know aren't front my front step is sinking and so I I just you know if you have a really bad construction and bad compacting and we require this they might have to redo it anyway and it all started with the bad compaction and we I I forget would we require it only for new family new construction right cuz you're you're replacing a driveway I think it'd be silly to do that do not require driveway permits if you're replacing the original so I guess the only exception if you're widening their Regional now it's it's an addition I just hate to throw the extra cost in it solving the problem I guess it's my issue my vote is that it's adding cost and doesn't solve the underlying issue I I put some thought into this one it's it's an additional cost that's not an issue for everyone um my neighbors driveway settled my neighbors and my houses were built at the same three of us moved in within a week of each other n years ago one guy's driveway settled a foot well not a foot 6 in but he he went through he went through the process of doing the concrete apron the other one drives a a Dodge 2500 pickup Parks every day right there in and out in and out no issues I have like a half an inch of a half an inch of settlement in the summer and it heaves a little bit in the winter and it's not a big deal and we've been there 9 years I I don't know that we need an added cost to skyrocketing home prices um when they're it may not be an issue for everyone and and it may not fix it for it may not fix it for everyone might sink it still May sink it's going to be more it make spall or break off I mean salt on concrete is not good and people like to throw salt all over their driveways and yeah I feel like if we don't do this then we got to find a way to fix the workmanship issue because it's I mean it is a problem I think we're hearing about it because we've heard from a ton of residents right um I would assume how I guess a good question how how has this issue come up it's it's a lot uh mine did it my two two neighbors up did it luckily mine is concrete it didn't settle but I have snakes underneath it it's Hollow I can hear it yeah my neighbor two doors up jacked it and she got by pretty cheap um if there is a big cost for the cement versus asphalt during construction then that might make sense but my understanding was it wasn't that big a cost so to me it's it kind of hinges on what that Delta is and if it's just material cost that can't be that much I I don't think it's that much because the sidewalk that you see in the bottom of the picture there it's getting poured anyways right they're going to be there you got SM guys there you got asphalt guys there so now really what you're talking about is the material and the sidewalk gets there before the asphalt so if that if that concrete apron were not there when that house got constructed the sidewalk got poured first the driveway was gravel they pave the driveway instead they pour the sidewalk and the apron and then come for the driveway um I I don't think it's a significant cost increase I really I and and not not trying to really you know be a pain about it I I just I don't know I think this might be our best attempt at even coming close and I was initially against it I think it was you you that convinced me of like well we're not going to fix the workmanship issue I really don't think we will there's just it's not supported by building code um you know and and our you know is I I where where I work we've got internal building inspectors I know city of Dayton use as a consultant even internal building inspectors go you're not going to fix this issue um you know ones that I I probably have a little bit more ability to change their their frame of mind and and View and policies and everything you're they're convinced that you wouldn't fix this and I think I think a concrete apron gets as close as we could I would recommend we maybe require a little bit of rebar in it so when it does crack the cracks stay tight but that would be a little above and beyond but you know yeah you do want to put a wire Mash in it something something to you know it won't the crack will still happen but they still won't do but it stay tight they'll put the mash down the ground and then they'll the concrete they won't raise it up yeah so I think it's a better to the problem that's where I stand kind of feel like it's a quality thing not just work and so with quality we all select different things I built the home so you select different things and that's where I feel like you know at some point in time it's just it's up to the homeowner to figure it out too and deal with the it like everyone else I I don't I don't know if it's going to solve everything that's why I guess I'm really cautious it's like you might require it and it turns out there sinks and everyone's they start asking people and they're like why'd you put it in well the city told me I had to and it's still song I think the only the only comfort I've got there is mudjacking it back up or you know if you know you've heard of hollow Point underneath it maybe before any real issue happens you can get someing underneath you know a friend of mine in dony hotel's 30-year-old house but the whole front of the driveway folded in it's asho and she had to go through some pretty good expense to fix that so and that introduces drainage in in towards the footing the foundation as well which you know is the potential for more damage you know if if if water's going to pull there and and see down like I said I wish we weren't here I wish we didn't have to do it but we do so how about and I don't know this answer but how about where the asphalt and concrete's joining they say that stops the settling a little bit there is the asphalt where it buts the concrete still going to settle again and you just move the problem up it's out of the excavation Zone well it should be out of the it should be out of the excavation Zone but you may start to get pushing where the asphalt pushes up and and you start to create a little rut right there it it's I mean this is really getting down to Material Science too on on the type of asphalt they're using on these driveways of how much it's going to do that and is it really going to happen and is it only happening when you bring your F250 or whatever um stop too quick yeah I mean I'm still on the I'm on the opinion of this it see is it really I mean is it a problem with new construction and how how many are new construction in the last we'll say 10 years cuz that's really when it started I mean if if it's 30% of new construction I might have a different tune here but if it's if it's 25 residents who are just emailing doesn't seem like that much and it and Dennis I mean you said yours yours sunk but mine's 30 years old yours 30 years old how many I don't think it's Unique to constru I mean to to today's constructions my house is built by um the guy that built it lived in it and he was going to stay in it and it settled so so requiring a driveway apron though by ordinance wouldn't fix any of the existing driveways that are settling no different than you just putting one in yourself right for existing yeah I mean and so but like I said the reason I was probably saved the Fairly large expenses because he put in an yeah it's less than $1,000 do to my Jack for sure and it's five to eight to more thousand to tear your driveway out and bring compaction and for an apron after the fact so can we make a motion and see where we land a vote we can um lost track if we open and close we open it close the public hearing at 11:39 make a motion to approve the ordinance second we've got a motion and a second to approve the ordinance all those in favor I I all those oppose hey I'm going to go with yes you missed your turn I know I I was still deciding I was hoping one of you two would do it I would not have to decide the motion passes uh 3 to two not what I expected us to have a split vote on well done guys there aprons the most controversial issue of the night that question answered the material I gota believe the difference in cost is simply the materials yeah could could we it's it's got to be really close it's pretty dang close at that point I mean yeah CU they're already there pouring the sidewalk yeah already there no other just materials it's materials cost the I guess so then what here here's the only the only thing I'll suggest on this is if you look at if you go to puler than are and you look at their build sheets they're going to charge they're going to charge that Resident extra for it yeah and the but I think the residents can be better off for it because of but mhm I'd also require concrete Stoops instead of wood porches that's another day that's another day that's just me I they look bad are you adding that to the agenda right now no just say all right uh item 9A no bu um item 10 item 10 oh notice in notice an announcements yes the next regularly scheduled plan commission meeting is on the 4th of July um hoping you cancel it confirmed yeah yes motion to cancel the July 4th meeting second this it's just cons well either way like City Hall is going to be closed do not doing that I won't record but I'll be well do we have any agenda items for July that need be I thought that's why this meeting was so awful yeah no natural um let me back up that was a bad explanation when it got warm we had a whole lot of projects that came in in March and they all came to fruition in for the June plan commission meeting plan commission city council um we do have one application that came in yesterday um I think it can be pushed off till August that would be an extension of the 60-day rule okay I'm going to say we I guess is the applicant okay with I've asked and they've not answered yet okay they don't have to be okay right we just got to give no correct okay okay I think it's after that that they have to be okay with it right to Beyond 120 days okay I think we decided at the last meeting to cancel the July Fourth meeting so I don't think we need any motion on that okay I agree and then uh August 1st the other one that staff didn't mention earlier is did you get your application in your application I haven't turned in I downloaded it I got half fed out so yeah I got to do that uh J yeah for anyone that's watching this still um so we have uh two positions on the Planning Commission that are up so you have Paul and Peter uh it's a three-year term uh applications are due I believe it's June 18 18 yes June 18th remember yes that is correct and and if anyone else is interested there's a park one Parks one there is two parks two parks one commission meet commission as well and then the decision we made on July or June 25th meeting at the city council well we have yeah we have one Eda opening currently that's you man yeah we have one Eda opening if anybody owns a business in town let us know love to have you on the Eda should have announced that when we had a packed H motion toour lo lo second we have a motion in a second to adjourn all those in favor all meeting is adjourned e