for for just can sure it is 6:30 we will call the Dayton Planning Commission meeting to order first order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank [Music] you all right and with that uh we'll just move into a quick roll call since we do have an absence uh sarahan Aon Darren Brown Peter deth all cross line all right uh we got quick just uh item number three role of the Planning Commission um it's on the agenda for for folks to read uh not going to read through it just pointing it out uh number four item four approval of agenda so moved second John any changes to the agenda uh no we're we're missing are consultant so when we get to number two we might need to might need to adjust might need might need to punt one item okay all right uh with that all in favor I I uh I'll oppose motion motion passes 4 Z Item five consent agenda uh all we have on consent agenda is meeting minutes from October 3rd I'll make a motion to approve we have a motion do we have a second second we have a motion from Brown a second from Crossland all those in favor I I motion passes well all those oppos motion passes 4 z uh item number six moving into open Forum uh anyone here for open forum and just to remind open form is public comments limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items uh state your name address and uh no action will be taken tonight but it will be taken under consideration come on forward uh I can that thank you my name is mar and I live at 11320 from brookl I'm here to talk about the DCM project again I'm here to remind you that a gas station convenience store convenience store is not needed for the DCM neighborhood remember there are already four soon to be five guas stations within a 5 mile radius of this location four of them sell groceries there's one by the elementary school one by Target one by the trailer park one on 113th and soon one to be on 94 a person's car does not even warm up before they get you there why would you possibly think that the South end of town needs six gas stations and the North End doesn't even get one is beyond me the city needs a gas station convenience store anywhere it's by the old village that's where you should be planning one those residents on the north end of town have nothing but a bar and a liquor store up there but of course that would actually take some real planning something I'm convinced you maybe are unable to do who among you at any time there has spent who among you has spent any time there other than at Dayton Heritage days and according to a poll that the city paid for a significant number of residents of this town don't even go up there for that oh and by the way Mr Dean spoke about putting a daycare center in there also you realize there's already a daycare center kitty corner across the street at the church and they're always advertising that they have openings um also I've contacted the pollution control agency and the State Board of Health they adise advised me that there are very stringent rules regarding a gas station next to private Wells if you think that five gas stations and convenience stores is not enough just for the south end of the city as well as having Target right there and that the city needs another one placed right next to homes where the citizens get their drinking water from the groundwater then you must follow those rules exactly nothing nothing less and I'll be right there to make sure that Mr Dean the gas station owner and especially the city follows those rules I also want to remind you that you are the Planning Commission you're the ones getting paid to plan instead you let the developers do all the work and you just sit back and roll with it and collect your money shame on you start planning positive things for this city and do your job thank you for those comments and they will be taken under consideration clarify the RO of Planning Commission plan um if if you want to read what we have here or any yeah I just like to you know refer back to the the front of the agenda the role of the Planning Commission is we advisory committee to the um mayor we actually are not paid um Beyond a small stien per meeting um I I will correct that some of us are not even I don't I I do not take that yeah we denied the payment of 150 bucks a year I I denied it I I don't know about others but I yeah so it's we're the ones that review applications that come in by developers to make sure they meet city codes and ordinances and you can recommend them to the to the city Cil you so you need to be able to make those changes to go devel and say you know this is not going to work it's correct again do job all right um and when that application comes in we will we will take it under scrutiny um was there one other person thanks hi I'm Keith Grover 11320 Fernbrook Lane you just heard from my wife so um I'm not going to go over what she brought up because I agree with her 100% but I'm talking about another issue that follows along those same lines and the development that's done behind Dean's Manor to the south of 113th um that they're finishing up now the building and the homes and stuff all of the runoff water from those fields comes down across under 121 just south of Dean Manor runs along 112th um and then goes under 112th and along 112th on the North side and then back across private property to exit when those fields were there we would see runoff from those fields when it rained if you had heavy rains sometimes you would see quite a bit but a few days after the rain those runoffs would not be there anymore it would stop during the drought that we had this Summer that water never stopped running from those holding ponds across under 121 And across the adjacent properties and I think that the city I'm not sure you know who did the water study or the runoff study on that property but they really screwed it up I don't know where all this water coming from other than it's coming off from the paved streets from that whole development they run into those two holding ponds you would think the water in a holding Pond would be held there that's the reason for a holding Pond but those holding ponds shed water All Summer Long even when we didn't have rains and when it rains of course then you get more so it makes that whole field in the corner there one that that I'm lucky enough to have the owner let me cut hay on you non-usable this year the county did come out after some complaining to them I'm not sure if you guys had anything to do with that or not but the county came out and they cleaned out by the Culvert they cleaned along 121 and they actually cleaned several hundred feet of Dayton's ditch along 112 that we should have done but we didn't they did that for us all the way up to the Culver that crosses under 112th and goes north and then runs along the north side of 112 the water runs freely to that point again which shouldn't be happening because we shouldn't have that runoff in the first place but they can't get under the Culvert until it gets to a very high level under 112 that's Dayton's property that's Dayton's issue the whole ditch along the north side of 112 doesn't flow right at all it used to be it's Hillary McD's yard but he used to be able to mow that property and it's wet all the time now it never used to be like that something we did with that development really screwed up the Watershed there and we know that black do doesn't absorb water you know Bean Fields hay Fields corn fields you know they suck up a lot of water but my idea and I thought the whole process was I thought the rules were that the water coming off that property couldn't be more than what it was before it clearly is more when you go through the two two and a half months of drought like we had this year and that water can continued to flow during that whole time it's never been like that before so I think we really really need to look into how we're dealing with water runoffs from these developments that are coming the new development that that my wife was talking about uh that includes the you know potential gas station and all that stuff on the north side of 113th also really bothers me because the holding Pond that they're planning on um you at least the initial plans is right across Ross the street from our house and if that holding Pond isn't any better than the other two holding ponds that you got for the other half of that development I think we're going to have some real issues with that also that water from that field runs across under 121 about 250 ft north of my house then goes across and behind and joins up with the other one I was talking about off from the other them so I really think we need to look hard at how we're dealing with that water that's coming off from the properties and I don't know anything about any of the other developments in the town whether they're having issues with that all I can tell you is I've lived in Dayton since 1962 I drove that field with my motorcycle when I was a kid I snow buil that field I've been there and I'm I'm still there I'm 72 years old now right I grew up over the hill on Elm Creek Road that was always farmable Fields always so whatever they did in that development really hurt the adjacent properties I think we need to look real close about that thank you thank you very much thank you anyone else for open form hi there hi I wasn't planning on talking so but they bring up some good points Lee hallquist I live at 11471 Fernbrook Lane thanks um two points I guess I want to make one is the this proposed location for another gas station is like six minutes from three other gas stations nobody's that desperate for bread that they can't go that far and and I just see I hate to use the word the phrase nimi but you guys ain't putting them in your backyards you know you you got all the nice developments and stuff and the or rural property in your stay it's it's not me it's not going to affect me is is kind of what we're hearing here um and that's probably all I need to say about that without being upset um the drainage problems two years ago when the Le project was developed I asked about drainage problems then I got a ignored I'm asking about it now what are the plans for drainage um my property's I can go snorkeling in my basement if my generator isn't working stuff I just want to be sure that you guys are actually giving this some thought and you know a Nick who's not here to defend himself said well we'll just put in more holding ponds and hope the water flows that way that tells me he doesn't know anything about holding ponds uh they're not to absorb groundwater that way so um I want to know that there's going to be a plan for drainage and I don't think that's an unreasonable request here because it affects the value of my property so got it you hear me I'm okay do you have a good evening thank you anyone else for open form my name is Mike net singer I live on 117th Avenue North and French Lake Road I'm concerned about your concern about the dayon community being invaded by industrial traffic on 117th Avenue North coming off the Dayton Parkway and the other areas of let's say Graco and if we want to call it when it comes to play the cubes and some other areas we have right now an area of traffic that's unsurpassed that's ever been on the road before I don't know if that road is even made for that tonnage of traffic coming through but tonnage I mean you got a cement truck and a cement truck I'm going to say if they don't have a permit they're overweight and if you guys or the city council or the police department is isn't policing this there's a mistake now we've got all these houses going up on a 117th you all know them there tons of them and there's children in these houses what's going to happen when one of these children move out into the street when a trucks come by and these trucks are Quint axle and tri axle and I still say I call the city of Dayton they said oh it's okay CU there's a five r a five ton load limit on the axles if you look and you have some State Patrol out there checking the load limit if they don't have a permit to be on those roads they should not be on them along with the other semis they're coming up and down the road so we got gravel trucks dump trucks we've got semis from let's say all the industries coming in in that corner let's say Graco and some of the other ones there's about 10 of them in there now and they're all coming down the these streets today I saw a FedEx come down the street I thought these were proposed roads that said truck drivers should take the necessary means to find the transportation off of residential streets it's not happening so my plan is for you to at least acknowledge that there is a problem here I've never seen this much traffic in my life on that road Road I've been there 30 some years never ever has there been that much traffic the best thing they ever did at least they put a four-way stop on French Lake Road and 117th Avenue North but that doesn't stop the traffic slowed them down a bit and if these trucks are not permitted and all overweight then they're ruining your and our roads I hope I got my pony across and I'm just disappointed that we can't reroute them to go down firm Brook no no no I'm sorry but I mean that is a major highway and I understand the no no no no I I I understand that but they're coming down a residential Avenue not a highway and it it if they're not permitted they all should be ticketed and you you know what would happen if the state patrol I I I would love to call the state patrol and say how many tickets do you want to issue because they would be able to issue almost every truck driver on that road tickets at one point in time it was classified as a no heavy equipment allowed on the road I don't know what happened to that I guess it just disappeared when they put the new Road in because it's such a good road now I don't think it's the highway I it's never been and I don't think it ever will be but please make sure that you relay this information take into context with yourself as to how to plan this city council should be saying if they don't have permits they're out of bounds they're overweight let's make this right get these trucks to go different routes which are Highway routes thank you thank you anyone else here for open form I know dick Ryerson and I also live on 117th and I would certainly Echo uh Mike's comments on the traffic I have never seen so many 18-wheelers uh in front of my house and I've lived there 50 years and uh traffic is Nots going both directions wherever they can turn South they can turn north it doesn't matter they're just going both directions uh but my comment tonight is the extension of the Dayton Parkway and uh I'd like to suggest a novel uh solution to the problem and that is why don't they just use the pre-existing roads that are already there and if you needed to make the corners a little bit rounder you could take some property away from Dave Edgar's property and I'm sure Mike wouldn't mind a quarter of an acre uh off of his uh corner and also Leo Dean I'm sure wouldn't hurt with uh a quarter of a acre off of his property just to make that road uh a little bit easier for the semis if that's the the plan rather than the existing plan that I see that's my comments thank you thank you thank you thank you I go ahead uh Scott shy I live at 119 know East French Lake Road uh I'll be up here later for the parkway but I just wanted to ask if there's any uh plans or consideration for uh making Territorial and East French Lake Road uh three-way stop uh when you pull up there I've lived out there for 32 years it's always been an issue you cannot see west of to the West on territorial because of uh the landscape you have to pull Way Beyond the stop sign to even Peak out to see if there's anybody coming uh the traffic coming from the West is typically speeding uh that's a little judgmental but it seems that they really come through there uh when you pull out there now you usually have you know people run up on you on your back bumper um the uh and if they're turning onto East French Lake Road they always cut the corner especially construction vehicles maybe pulling a trailer I've almost got the front end clipped many times sitting they're trying to pull out and a vehicle comes from the West turns to the north um it seems like a good place for three-way stop uh it probably would be uh would have made more sense before you did uh the four-way stop at East FR Lake Road in 117th but it's um I think it's a safety issue especially with the increased traffic down there so I'm going I'm going to just for your record I'm going to take that comment and put it under item 8e okay just it is the pting neighborhood that that's going in there but I I totally agree with you I live right there thank you anyone else for open comment for non-agenda items all right with that we will move into uh item s Council update John I don't believe we have any council members current council members here correct not yet all right any any update from Council on the last three agendas that that is pertinent to planning if I thought long enough I'm sure there's a more exp we'll expedite it since we're running behind and just re review the minutes there all right item uh 8A uh we got recommendation for approval uh to amend interim use permit for of an event center for 6900 North North Diamond Lake Road also known as Fisher Farms thank you Mr chair um so the inter Fisher Farms received an interm use permit in 2023 um that was specific for tented events uh the intention at that time was um that when the applicant was ready to build a permanent building then the iup would be amended at that time um now it's that time so the the uh applicant is proposing to build a I want to say it's about a 9,000 squ ft building um in this location uh currently the existing parking lot is here um this is North Diamond Lake Road uh laale uh this is kind of the uh where tented events are occurred this is an existing um accessory building and then these two buildings that are two sheds that are here are are not shown on the map but right about here somewhere in this corner here um let's see most of the issues that that were address or that were uh discussed when this came out in 2023 have been addressed um a couple items is with the 2023 or the initial interim use permit did require a storm water Pond to be built um that is still under construction um also there's a I'm referring to a temporary access off of North Diamond Lake Road um the being that this is a County Road henpen county is the road authority um this is a temporary access that could be removed at any time the intent is that when uh traffic gets too busy then the access needs to be moved on to laale over here um there is a a driveway that is under construction that I believe ends halfway to laale I'm going to say um and at some point we'll extend all the way to laale for the the permanent Access Road uh the image in the lower left is the planned um Event Center building uh so once again it's roughly 9,000 square ft um it will be required once it's built to meet with uh or to comply with building codes and and fire codes there's the storm water Pond um and then the temporary access point I guess with that I can stand for any questions um this is a public hearing and you do have a number of staff that can answer questions any initial questions for staff at this point at this point I guess I have one just just before we get into it uh during the iup that was granted from 2023 to to current um do we know of any complaints to the iup uh that were officially filed I'm not aware of that okay okay so during their to State it differently during their their the last year of operations they were compliant with everything that we had as far as we know they were compliant with everything we had relayed as a city to them uh other than the storm water Pond is still under construction and but the storm water Pond was not needed for the temporary the iup that was previously needed yes it was yes okay so the storm waterer Pond serves the parking lot oh it's part of the parking lot but not part of the temporary event structure that was previously there yeah so kind of what you're asking for is are there any nuisance complaints and as far as I know no has not okay well and and more than just nuisance complaints but complaints against the original iup that was issued to them for their temporary Event Center not that I'm aware okay that's what I wanted to know all right and with that any other questions not yet okay so it is uh 6:59 we will open the public hearing for Fisher Farms anyone who would like to come State their piece uh name and address for the record please and Tom wison 11 gwood drive thank you I Know M in Amanda for the past five two years now I work over at Magnus right across the street from Fisher farms and what I see them guys doing they're doing a good job they're doing everything for the community and they bust their butts to make things be sure things are right and I'd rather see an event center go in there than like an apartment building for houses so this be good for the community and they do a good job of what they do and they it's a nice place I think it'd be good for the community is that they did their trunk Retreat great crowd so I think it's just we don't compete with mag they don't compete with us I'm not speaking for Magnus I'm speaking for myself okay thank you okay thank you hi I'm uh Chris Covington 14051 laale Lane North it's uh somewhat nearby there uh my I just uh had questions about the noise level that that if a permanent building goes in I just want to make sure it'll be quiet to the surrounding neighborhoods there so uh I looked at the at the agenda packet and it looks like it's a barn with uh two uh very big doors that slide on on the front and the back and so I'm curious if that like during the summer if the the doors will be open and the Amplified music will be coming out of there um and then you know I'm curious how that you know relates to the the city uh ordinance or about uh sound application systems not to be used Outdoors after 8 8m if that's you know if the doors are open is that uh you know equivalent to an outdoor or or is that allowed kind of a thing I'm just I just want to make sure that uh you know hopefully the the Builder the the owner you know is uh you know nice to the the rest of the residents around there so good question and just general thank you I think that's one we'll we'll try to address for you thank you thank you jeram 14 281 l l um I don't know the Fishers I've never met them I do live just to the west side of their property and to be honest with you I think this is a great idea I'd love to see her build the building there and keep that property looking more like country and farm rather than looking out my window and seeing 60 houses so I think it's a great idea and I just wanted to say that thank you thank you Terry anyone else for open for on this item all right at 7:03 I will close the public hearing I'd like to invite the applicant forward no we have at least one question yeah so if not maybe a few more I have a couple um so one of my first questions was about handicap parking accessib um accessibility cuz um it looked like all of the parking spots were there there's the parking lot and then there's the building and there's kind of a trail to get there so just wondering what your plans are are if you're going to have dedicated handicap parking closer to the building that they don't have to go just I just wanted Clarity on that so right at so at the Fall Festival we had four designated handicap parkings closer to the ticket booth area there will be once the building is built we're actually going to do more of like a walking opening down at the other Corner closer to it and then we'll have another path created um probably end up moving a couple of trees just to make it work but then we'll have handicap parking as well down at that end okay um that was kind of my my biggest thing um have there been any so there's the you were asking about the water retention pond that's kind of in progress has there been any issues with flooding onto North Diamond Lake or okay um not even in all the rains we had in the spring say this would be the testing year cuz is it went from drought to floods my parking lot didn't hold up very well but it uh it did not go out on the roads at all okay um and then uh this is more of a just a per I don't know personal is not the right word but I noticed that the men's and women's restrooms have the exact same number of stalls and I don't know about you but that I find that the line at Women's restrooms is always like 5,000 times longer than the lines at Men's so I was wondering why they are the same size and there weren't maybe some additional stalls the restrooms are a work in progress okay the the plans are not the final ones because there'll be like a potentially a commercial kitchen of some sort that's going to go in there so the exact um like Plumbing structure of the building is still a bit of a work in progress so the main Shell's going to be what's going up first and then we're going to kind of work with that for a bit I totally get that um because that was my other question was about a food prep area because I didn't see one and I was kind of expecting to see one so I I'm still thought processing that it'll be at um so basically the the enclosed side of it is going to be facing the West the open sorry the East the open side the patio side would be facing the West for Sunset viewage okay um the doors would be laale and then towards the the golf course okay um on the enclosed side towards the north so basically this corner here um is BAS is kind of my planned uh point for the kitchen okay so just checking to see if I I want to go back through my notes but if anyone else has any questions I have a couple questions uh kind of related to the parking lot um first staff has direct so the current parking lot is 96 that's what kind of what it's rated for um it's no that was a typ so it's closer to 200 oh well that makes a big difference the parking lot that that's our s yeah we just did a simple layout you have something very acre and a half I think is around like 400 oh we did how was signed with just standard designs and we came up with roughly 200 un KS it could be more yeah and there'll be overflow parking that's going to stay grass because I'm not going to deal with gravel again um yeah I'd say acre and a half is that's probably not 400 anyway um so staff was recommending 200 salts if you had to expand your parking lot with this site plan and the topography I guess that's my concern is where would you go with it right on the other side of the pond so you you and then you have the CU we we probably still only one one curb cut on Diamond Lake Road is my guess so so if like there' be an Access Road between basically like you see at the very bottom of it the very bottom of the pond there's like basically what looks like a road going across there that's the road access you come in the parking lot take an immediate left where where things are at right now when you when it goes all the way to laundale you're going to pass the Overflow before you get to the main parking lot okay um um so when I look at this just so you understand my perspective is I'm looking at this like we want you to be there for 20 plus years right and so I'm kind of viewing this almost like a developer coming in and asking for a plat because you might be there forever right that'd be a great thing for the city and so my concern with the road there is because I believe you we've given some guidance on what Diamond Lake Road will have to have for right away in the future is that your road might be encroaching into that area which is going to serve the greater area like If This Were a plat we'd be asking you to move it back and so I'm kind of looking at this iup in that manner Y and so I I and I know the original iup said that keep improvements and I view parking lots as an improvement outside of the anticipated right away M the the future ones like I said the other side of it is going to be just grass it's not going to be a a more of a permanent structure type deal and even the gravel parking lot is not a permanent structure that that can always be dug up and moved over or adjusted Ed in whatever yeah I guess that's my concern because of the Topography of where you're going to move it with and even from your perspective because your improvements are there you want the parking lot close to the improvements right if you need more parking it's all it's honestly the very upper corner of the the current parking lot is within not even 100 fet of where the building is going to be right um I'll defer the rest of my comments for now because maybe our engineer on the panel can help me provide some clarity on that do you you have any comments or questions well well with the parking if he has any comments I'm curious I do but do you have any comments or questions initially um I just if you could talk about noise control that was brought up by one of the residents what your thoughts are for yep so one of my um requests with the change in the iup is adjusting that noise ordinance for Friday and Saturdays cuz 8:00 I think is standard for Sunday through Thursday on all residential and then I think it's 10:00 on Saturday and Sunday so right now it's written till 8 at all times um so in terms of the noise aspect I don't know if anybody was really even aware of the band playing at the Fall Festival I don't know if they could even hear it out in the trunk Retreat area or at least not all at the other end so the noise is n carrying super far from my understanding we're seeing a few just for your Clarity we're seeing at least one neighbor that that hurt that H it okay um but but that noise ordinance is pertaining to outdoor outdoor outdoor noise and so I guess addressing 8:00 outdoor noise and then indoor being different and yeah so um Amplified noise is 8:00 p.m. um and then the uh activities is 1: p.m. on uh I'm going to say weekdays and then 11 p.m. on Fridays and Saturdays so what you're asking for is to have Amplified music after 8:00 p.m. outdoor amp outdoor Amplified was up to 10: p.m. up to 10 p.m. okay because I mean summer the it doesn't even really get dark until 9:30 some nights it's like things are going I know that quite a few different events this summer we're having like fireworks or other such things so and bands playing um I didn't personally but I know that in it would be it'll affect people in the future as as these event centers and various places have more things going on sure so are you asking for 1000 p.m. 7 days a week no or 10 p.m. on week Friday and Saturday then 800 PM otherwise but um in terms of the actual noise of the from the building I guess I I'm definitely not going to try and piss any neighbors off if it does become an issue i' I'd absolutely love to hear about it and I will make adjustments to the building to where speakers are to where um my contracts are that you've got a turn down the music by a certain time um I've been kind of telling people as we've been getting some traction and some uh Word of Mouth going that yeah Amplified any Amplified noise is done by 10:00 on weekends um so my my contracts are there and I live very close to the property so plan to be checking in and making sure that everything's happening the way it's supposed to happen or I'm on site for whatever events they're my events I'm always on site I guess with just looking at the the few renderings we have is this I mean it looks like a agricultural building which is is great but is it built more towards like what a residential building would be as far as insulation and it will be so so it's going to be insulated it's going to be it's not going to be just a pole barn it's going to be insulated and so that's going to help deafen any noise inside the building correct I don't want to spend an absolute fortune on heating that place or cool cooling you're intending to use it year round so the picture that's showing up here is is agricultural nature but you're you have plans to insulate it and mhm okay um I guess as it relates to and and John you might have to help me on this one a little bit but as it relates to uh so I didn't see any notes in the in the Plenty in the packet related to the expansion of South Diamond Lake Road or North diamond North Lake North Diamond Lake Road to widen it but as it relates to their driveway access we have I mean it's their property we don't have any we don't know of any current plans for this the county to widen it to that point I I'm going to look at Jason there's nothing programmed for an expansion so so what they're showing where they're showing it as as far as we know is is fine with the way they're using it um and we didn't so as far as yeah so I had this conversation with staff the first go around Peter just little reference but all the way on the East End of North Diamond Lake Road where development has occurred I forget the RightWay with Jason maybe you can help me out they requested an additional 32 ft right in addition to what was there existing 33 foot half right away they want another 32 yeah so we don't know the win but we do know what they are going to anticipate requesting and I guess as that section carries through here is that a concern from your perspective Jason or her I I expect the request would be the same and the the need for RightWay would be the same at which time they would have to require the property if you up to the county when that when that program go or project goes forward and just so people know my perspective is that whether it's the county or it's the city of Dayton it's all of us taxpayers and that's why we're trying to protect putting too many improvements in future right away uh because we all pay for it and no different than if you we a developer was coming in a plat of single family subdivision that's why we ask for the the RightWay to protect us in the future and I guess my my take on this and just cuz I was out by the site a couple days ago the ponds being dug currently and so it's like do we do we do we redig the pond now to move that road or do we redig it in the future and is that something we can redig in the future Jason I guess I don't know if if that's something we can move that P North to shift her Road North in the future if we need to I mean it have to be designed it have to be relocated and meet the requirements for storm water when it was at at that time so it may be worth it'll be a lot more effort and expense at that time of course so maybe something to consider I guess I don't know if it'd be something I would Implement today on on on you but it may be something to consider uh as your a work in progress you know my perspective is that storm water Pond is a site improvement too that's why things like that is that I in the original iup said to keep those out of the I mean everyone has different ideas of what improvements are but to keep them out of the anticipated right away yeah and there's I mean honest ly with the where the the road technically is going through at there's always a possibility of just removing that road cutting it off at the pond basically having the road go somewhere else within the orchard yep and it's just a matter of like my my kind of grievances when we were designing all of this in the first place and going through round one was that I would then have to basically kind of fence off certain things within the orchard or or just figure out a different fencing style um with which I mean isn't out of the realm but it's just kind of where it ends up at and and I think I get to to get to jiren's Point that's that's what we're thinking about is what's the possibilities and what are we planning for so that we don't get into a predicament up here 20 years from now of cuz you're still there being successful yes so or my kids are taking over do you have a backup for where the road could go if this is an issue there is always a possibility like 67 acres to play with yeah but you don't have anything right off the top of your head like this is there I mean there's kind of that internal Road that's already kind of like I mean there's always that possibility of maybe just I mean we can always move the road a bit in after we get past the pond yeah since we're that's really not nothing's really developed there yet yeah um to just start curving it up and leaving that space then um which like I said that's still very much a possibility at this point and then always bringing it up like before the pond and then connecting it to the upper the upper aspects connecting in in a different way I did find my other question I knew there was one more um I didn't see I'm obviously there's going to be Water and Sewer in this Barn there's a bathroom um where is the new septic going uh to the north okay I for some reason I just didn't wasn't it that wasn't submitted I when I gave everything into John I was still waiting for end to come back with the final design okay but um on the back side it it there's a slope right behind where the Barn's going yeah and it basically is going to take up almost an acre okay and that's not going to have any issue with the new well location no okay thank you y uh one more question on parking what do you think the max parking you'll need based upon the size of Improv M ments and potentially you're going to have to manage it you won't be having multiple events I'm to taken at the event centers rent it up because you got to manage that parking lot right when you're talking what's going to go in this building the existing parking lot is sufficient um when we're talking festivals that that changes the game completely um we we found that out very quickly on the on the 12th that how that game changed fast um which is is again where we've got the Overflow parking I I don't think there's any kind of mandates in terms of having a structured parking lot for stuff like that so that's where the the grass overflow parking comes into play everything for that Festival worked out as best as it possibly could have in terms of the field being um harvested just in time so if you are planning to use the grass area for overflow parking will you be leaving it as just grass then all the time and not okay so there won't be a crop that has to get in at a certain date because I know that Panic I'm not going to yeah no the Panic for me of like is that going to happen cuz last year it didn't happen yeah last year's Festival they were the corn was still in the field and I don't think they actually ended up harvesting till almost like the 1 of November yeah so no that it would be I'm actually already plotting out where this is going okay to to keep it for us for next year so it'll be a dedicated grass space that will either just be grass or for parking there won't be crops that you'll have to worry about correct okay just to add a note to that so um we've had the Ordnance for event centers for about a year Fisher Farms was the first one in and kind of took the brunt to it was the experiment for this so um one of the requirements for event centers is that there be an improved parking lot uh Fisher Farms has that the other two that we two that we've had have have not and grass parking lot has been supported by both the plan commission and the council so kind of the point being is the first one is it's always an experiment I think we have a tendency to be more conservative of what we require and not all of it is always Justified I think most other event centers in the state of Minnesota have a like a small area we're are more structured for the handicap accessibility which again the parking lot that I have are that happened to be put together it works out for the best that way um especially for how our Topography is and how wet our seasons have been um I know uh a couple other places have had a lot of issues with parking in the mud and um it's always been a fun battle there so um it's worked best for for mine but we're going to we're going to play with the grass field and keep it that way then for moving forward the colors of the barn in the roof red and white okay basically like all the other barns on the property except for those ones those ones have a green roof um there are the animal barns that are down the hill are all white roofs any other questions any other discussion yeah I guess you know Peter I'm lean a little bit on you put put your thinking cap on but I do have some concerns about the parking because I I don't know what the magic number is but if staff is saying 250 uh an acre and a half especially when it's not striped is light um and I'm just using 300 squ ft of stall with that's for Drive aisles and the stall um so if 250 is the right number I just want to make sure that we have ability to exp I'm okay with the grass expansion area and I'm okay with the the road in front of the road and the sense that someday if that goes away it just goes away I definitely would like to see or verify that like your drainage Pond is outside of that feature right away because it was in the original I iup on top of it is to keep the sight Improv outside of the existing or the anticipated right over there from the I want to say from the actual like edge of the road were 40 to 50 ft cuz the the road I'm putting in itself was going to be 30 ft wide yeah I believe Jason correct me if I'm wrong but it's 33 more feet from the property boundary not the edge of the and the property boundary is I can grab a quick measur here hopefully we're okay I just I just I I guess from the the I'm pretty sure you beat up the um the engineers and tried to make sure it was already back there pretty close to where it was for the pond edge of pavement is about 19 ft from right away Ed 32 put yeah I think we're within that so the holding Pond is outside of what the county would anticipate for needed RightWay is what you're saying all have not verified that okay it's on the plan I just I don't recall the result out of it it's really close did staff approve the location of the holding Pond um it met all the engineering requirements but did staff vetted towards the iup and the condition and the original iup about the location yeah well if I guess let's let's hold off on that if that if this was part of if that pond was part of the initial iup and we already approved it we can't ask her to change just now but we can't if it was part of the original iup in 2023 we cannot ask her to change that today it wasn't it was the condition was to keep the site improvements outside the original iup so I don't you have I mean there's I don't know I'll say a dozen or more uh conditions of approval you have discretion of changing right I I understand I think though just to clarify what we're saying is the original request is any Improvement has to stay outside of the potential right of way and this Improvement is part of the original iup if it's as long as it's outside then everything's fine but I think your point is if it didn't actually meet the the original iup then that's the problem that potentially we're not saying it is but that's what you're ask concerned about your storm water pond than the parking lot cuz the parking lot's easier to to adjust maybe but storm water pond can get expensive yeah kind of why it hadn't happened right away Y and I guess my point is we're not discussing the original iup tonight we're discussing a new a new iup so if that's the case then that's on staff to verify and we should just move on with the new I we can so this is uh condition number eight in the the original resolution so we can confirm that prior to when this goes to council sure as a sorry I I I did look it up it does appear the pond is probably outside of that that boundary the driveway is not the driveway is within that distance but the pond is outside of it I guess as it relates to parking because because her parking management plan is to to add additional parking based on grass and and the the use of the site the size of the building and the type of use for these events I'm not concerned at at what she has sized and if it becomes an issue she's going to mow more grass I mean she's going to want more people there at you know to make her customers happy so I'm not concerned if that's what she wants for her size it's not a public use for a a lot like a strip mall from that perspective I guess yeah part of that comment was to was directed at staff of how I arbitrary is the right word but how did we get the 250 I know we're talking similar size building but you're talking similar siiz building for for what since we don't have event centers so in in discussions with Amanda the thought was is that there would not be more than 500 people okay based on we did we did talk at do recall talking at our previous discussion we had uh roughly two people per car minus staff working the event yeah city code requires one stall for two people so um are we in the discussion phase here yeah so my thoughts are on the the Amplified music to talk a little bit about that um I guess I'm concerned if of just having it the 10:00 every Friday Saturday for outdoor Amplified music I'm concerned about that uh I'm concerned about in general since you're putting the building up meaning that I'd prefer as much Amplified music to be inside the build building and not outside and that's um I don't know how my other commissioner members feel about this but I feel like if you set the number of events that you want have outdoor music that would be easier for me to approve than say you know every Friday Saturday and I don't know that magic number of events that's why I'm pushing a little bit on you to understand what maybe what you think is a reasonable request for the year of how many events uh all the warm weekends and so if I were your neighbor not all neighbors will maybe disagree but they might not like that I'm on a loud music that frequently it's the realistic of having that kind of stuff probably not I mean sorry bedtime yeah and we're trying to manage what you can do versus because you know if it's a successful business it might be I would I guess this is just my thought most apple orchards work a lot like Dean's pumpkins where it's really only like 8 to 10 weekends or 8 to 10 weeks that they're open for General traffic for their Orchard traffic when we talk about that stuff we're basically just talking late August through late October so so my thought just throwing throwing this out there is I would like to see um I would like to see it defined from what weekends exactly what you said is let's let's lay out a time frame so the neighbors know mhm what weekens to expect it if we're going to approve it from that perspective or go the opposite and I don't know if we can do a individual exception to that on specific weekends that are applied for I don't know if it's an individual basis or a number of basis is but um I don't I don't like the blanket statement I'll say it that way so if if you want to do a limitation it's lot easier just pick a a date so you know let's say August 1st and November 1st or I'm going to assume that you're you're also wanting to do spring events and summer events too mhm so back to every weekend where it's nice out I mean yeah I mean like in but is that is that really going to happen I it's you're probably going to have more of that spring through middle of August to late August being more like a wedding or like conventions and like people are just hosting their own events uh vendor fairs things like that that are going on are going to be the more likelihood of the earlier ones where there won't be Amplified outdoor noise and things like that so there's like that realistic aspect um our fall our fall activities will run from that middle August to to late October where we have a A holiday event coming up in middle of December but there's I'm not going to put a band outside um it's more just like people getting to walk around move around do some scavenger hunts go sledding make snowman so there won't be outdoor noise or outdoor music for that um but I can't necessarily say that there won't be every single weekend but the realistic of it actually being every weekend is very very slim I'm oo I'm opposed to outdoor Amplified music past 800 PM period and that's as a neighbor to all of these event centers um because you can hear it as a neighbor and I have to get up at 6 in the morning to do chores uh every day of the week including Saturdays and Sundays and so I don't want to be kept up late by music um and my understanding was the whole point of we specified outdoor Amplified music you have a barn we're not saying your events have to end at 8:00 p.m. we're not even saying Amplified music H end at 8:00 p.m. we're saying outdoor Amplified music H and at end at 800 p.m. if you want to keep it going because it's nice and beautiful that's fine just move it inside that's all just move it inside we're not saying you have to close at eight and I think that's that's kind of to my point is if there's a one off or a a handful of off throughout the year cuz that's what we said for Magus if they have a one or two a year then you come through and you get that one or two a year approved so if you want your big Fall Festival to be go later that's fine then for that one event come through for a speci sun sets at 7 by then so I mean at again you get to that point of the year the likelihood of it being past 8:00 anyways because there isn't great lighting and there won't be great lighting out there there we're not going to turn this into a residential neighborhood where you can see every single house in between but it's not going to have that kind of lighting to be able to even that kind of late even Fourth of July if you wanted a Fourth of July event um I would I would just suggest come through the the the way Magnus is doing it um just at least to start and if it gets to be where you're doing 30 of these a year and neighbors don't complain then we can amend it I mean that's that's my opinion yeah I'd agree I mean June and July are really the only times where it's light after eight anyway so um yeah I'm if we cut it at eight then I'm more okay with the blanket statement than every weekend up to 10 yeah with the understanding you can apply for special events okay anything else um does anyone have concerns about outdoor Amplified music Monday through Thursday not that you probably even have it that often right but right now it says she can and I doubt it'll be an issue but it well it ends by 8m so that's no issue then um it does say events can be held till 10 and I still have no issue there on Monday Thursday problem with events no time events just to clarify your um there was a condition number seven John in the staff report about when the access to the site will be relocated to laale I get the part about when required by Hanan County but can you either staff or the applicant describe what is meant by or when the land is developed to the end of the property because if it's an apple or should I don't I guess I'm trying to understand what that statement means I I don't think there's a definition to that statement all can we can we need that statement then so so is this one parcel John no it's uh three so and when I say three like the middle there's a middle sliver so yeah that middle that line that's going very little line yep so can we just can we revise this to say if instead of De when land is developed when when land is developed on that Western parcel so if she decides to put up a building on that parcel or technically sell it off or sell it off then we have to add someone has to put that driveway in yep or he becomes non-existent essentially essentially I think what what both you and I are getting at is if you if were to sell that Western parcel off we want an easement to go from that Western parcel to the Eastern parcel so that the driveways are in perpetuity the rights to put it in yep okay does that make sense yeah it's not I mean I'm not selling it but no but but right you could that's why we're making the condition yeah and and that I think that would help Define the the developed yep I'm word Smith so that's fine does that make sense I'll I'll come back to it and check in I think you got the G of it John yeah anything else on oh I'm good I'm good make a motion to approve second forar so I'm still writing on number seven but uh for Amplified essentially no Amplified outdoor music after 8:00 P.M I would put in there without without a um whatever the event permit event permit is but do we will need to say that in there yes okay what what do John what do you think about what do we need to say I'm willing to say it in there but um so whatever it says uh you know Manda still can come back and apply for a special event permit and but the reason I'm saying that is if for whatever reason we take away that special event permit she still has the permission to to go get an a special event permit yes and that's that's why I'm I'm leaving in there to to protect her and the idea I mean part of the reason why we have event centers is so that we don't have special event permanent I but we also have events that want to go beyond what we have in our special that so basically what they're trying to say is that if I decide that I'm going to have this big bash going until 10:00 midnight whatever it happens to be with outdoor an event that exceed the conditions of this they want me to just you just need to apply for app for not required to pay for anything correct because that was would agre that there was couple months ago I would agree with Amanda that that if if she's a applies and is approved of a special event permit there should be no fee we we really can't put that as but in an interest I would agree with her on that statement though just I I understand but we can't put that as a condition that we're giving away free permits why not I'm with John how much does the permit cost anyway because the the the but she's she's well let's let's think about it this way though she's already granted a special events permit through an iup so she shouldn't have to apply technically I shouldn't have to apply for any any of it or definitely not pay for it because I'm going through the payment process of all of this stuff as it is and that I would agree with that sounds like the cost is pretty nominal that I'm with John that uh meaning I don't know the exact cost but there's a chirping that it's under 100 bucks so if you're having a special event I hopefully you think it's worth that but I've spent a lot more to go through than that maybe I'm with John I don't want to see the something you can take up at Council yeah sure yeah I age she should but it is kind of hard to mechanize that yep it's not our decision here yeah so that condition what back to your statement so you're just what are we what's the condition she app I'm say if any event exceeds the conditions of the interm use permit that she would should or would be required to obtain a special event permit for instance yeah special event well it's possible that the special event permit ordinance could be updated to say that someone who has an event center does not have to pay the additional fee that's that's where I was thinking but that could go in that ordinance it should go in that ordinance yes not this not this what about the um extra licensing that we had to change for the egg is that part of this discussion too or is that just Council for liquor LIC yeah that's just the council just Council okay so yeah just for planing commission doesn't review liquor licenses that's just the council um for Clarity on what we're voting on to what is the condition regarding parking meaning if parking becomes a greater need the iup just says it or do we need to have a condition to that in that in I I'm okay with what she's proposing so so by ordinance she has to have adequate parking so defined as one stall per two guests and that number of guests is going to fluctuate um if you know there's a acre and a half now of of gravel that has you know we'll say 200 Cars if there's a need for overflow on grass and the the commission the council is okay with grass parking lot um then it's just having an an adequate size and you've got 67 acres to deal with so you've got flexibility of figuring out where that's going to go and grasses right it's always there right so what you're saying is that we don't need to have a special condition if it's inadequate yeah staff you're not forcing the other two or eventually three other event um yeah I think you're okay yeah yeah yeah the will I don't want to make this as a condition but just you know when when you have Drive aisles that are heavily traffic like they should be graveled even if the parking is just grass M and that's like I said where that road is going to connect it either way you look at even with the current entrance come in you go left that's how we did it at the Fall Festival as soon as that parking lot was full we were directing people already right away over to the gr the grass area with the soy field and they were parking over there m so granted everything was dust at that point any other and then we had the one the one about the driveway being relocated once the land is developed the Western parcel is developed I don't know the aess the ACC the access point but not the driveway it's so kind of going back to Darren's point is if the county once the county is going to expand the road the county would have to different different thing he's talking number the the drive the actual Road my internal road to the new entrance on laale yeah when that access for site will be relocated to lale when the land to the West is prior to sale of the land to the West I would say when I devel improve I would say developed or improve I think the most important thing is that for whatever happens she sells off the Western parcel right is that the most important thing is that access is secured versus developed yeah like if hennipen county is still not requiring to change the access I don't want you to have to build a driveway but I want you to make sure you have the easement coming across the land so when the county closes it there's a driveway if we're using the term when the Western half is developed what does development mean on an Apple I don't like the word developed improved improved is improved him I don't mean like the word improved I think it's when it's sold sold when it's sold or a build I would say sold or a a building permit is submitted just okay protect you if if if uh you decide to build a building and then decide to sell it later any other changes we had a motion and a second all those in favor I I I all those opposed motion passes 4 Z thank you you uh item number 8B recommendation of acceptance of Dayton Parkway master plan thank you Mr chair members of the commission Al tonight before you you have the Dayton Parkway master plan um brought forward by the city so the applicant the city um so I'm just going to go through some background first of kind of why we're here tonight since it's been a while since the last time you had this before you uh so this is a city initiated effort to create an area plan to guide the next comprehensive Plan update um so this does not change anything within the comprehensive plan at this time this is just pre-planning for when that next comprehensive Plan update uh comes around um specifically within this master plan area um it's supposed to provide direction for how the city expects future development to occur in this area uh in form the future alignment of Dayton Parkway along with the street connections and Street designs for the streets that support Dayton Parkway uh reevaluate the land uses in the study and recommend modifications to better reflect the city's vision and provide guidelines for the type and style of development within the master plan boundary area um other background piece is the timeline of where we've where we started and how we got here um so this started back in June 27th of last year uh where the work effort was approved we had a work session at the Planning Commission uh following in September and then a 6 week long online survey was posted in on October 23rd that ran for 6 weeks um we brought that forward then at the landowner open house which was held in November just after Thanksgiving of last year um and then on March we brought the draft master plan and presented to to this body here um and then brought that back brought back a rine refined version for a joint work session held at Planning Commission and city council um then there was another present ation related to this done in June to the city council and then in August we held another joint work session between Planning Commission and city council and then finally the last step that happened was the second open house was held to present the draft master plan I will note that all the comments we received throughout this process whether it was the online survey or comments written comments at the open house or emails or anything like that those were all included as part of the packet um there are some additional ones I believe that um John printed out that were um emailed to either John or myself after the pack packet went out um but all of that is included in the packet before you um as far as the uh master plan area so there's a variety of land uses included uh Business Park commercial low density medium density high density public institutional Park and mixed use are all kind of um have their own separate areas within this master plan boundary area um gm2 is the zoning that's planned for the Mixed use so we'll talk about the town center but that GMU 2 is a zoning District that does exist for that mixed use area for transportation it focuses on the expansion of the existing Transportation Network specifically Dayton Parkway which is the highest functional classification of road going through this area so that's the connector shown in yellow um supported by a major collector a Parkway and a local um there's Street sections that I'll get into but each of these roads has a different design profile essentially um for what they look like when they're actually built out uh this street hary helps us determine access limitation traffic speeds roadway designs things like that um I will clarify that there's it might be confusing when I say this but there's a difference between Dayton Parkway which is just the name of the street versus a Parkway functional classification which is a design of a street it's a little confusing because of the way Dayton Parkway is named um and the parkway is the area through the town center so it's essentially the green line is leading to the Park area shown so green goes to Green um that street design I mentioned focuses on the safety of both vehicle and pedestrians um so the highest level of design or the largest RightWay with the most um of the two uses being shared is the parkway street that connects from Dayton Parkway through the town center to the park identified next to next to French Lake that's 150t right of way um it does have you know vehicle traffic bicycle traffic pedestrian traffic um and all of those uses are intended to be split apart from each other to provide um the the difference in field that a Parkway provides with a landscape median and having larger boulevards um so you have sidewalks and bike Lanes things like that because you're intending to go through the town center area where there is um more foot traffic more bicycle traffic just less Automotive traffic um then you have the connector streets which are 120t right away with um and that prioritizes getting movement essentially getting from A to B um so it has some of that pedestrian and bicycle traffic as well um but the intent is to then separate the vehicle traffic and get it flowing from one end to the other and that is the Dayton Parkway section is a connector Street on the last one being a local Street which is the typical 60ft wide RightWay um pedestrian realm some of the standards within the date within the parkway or the master plan boundary area um there's a new community park identified on the east side of French Lake so that's a new park it's adjacent to the current DNR um access onto French Lake that's location if you've dri driven on East French Lake that's where it is um we've also included additional screening standards for overhead doors and loading areas have been included so if those are anywhere in the area there'll be additional screening for those um parking standards have additional landscape Island and features breaking up the parking areas so a little more um breakup of the parking areas less the lengthy uh number of Bays it also encourages Creative Solutions to provide storm water management as part of the landscape Islands so one of the areas was resiliency and how to design for the future um so by providing the landscape Islands you can also double up essentially and use them as storm Water Management areas as well um it won't work in all cases but it can be a creative solution they can you can use um and then Landscaping encouraging the use of native plantings and diverse plantings um and then One requirement that's new in the master plan area is to ensure that all developments that come in have maintenance plans for their Landscaping to make sure they survive over those long periods of time especially with some of the um practices that have to go into uh survivability for Native plantings for the resiliency options uh there's a list of seven that are included within the master plan um each development that would go in the master plan area would have to pick up three of the seven as part of the development proposal uh those are permal pavers rain Gardens or bio retention systems native species Landscaping green rooftops aesthetic design uh chloride management plans and Alternative Energy so they would just have to pick what three are most applicable to that project um and we can be pretty flexible on what those three look like aesthetic design is intended to be kind of what's shown with the permeable Pap image on this slide which is essentially like little open space Pockets um structures that add enhancement to it whether it's like a gazebo on the corner things like that um it also encourages storm water management to be designed as open space features kind of highlighted on the the bottom image in the up here as far as the Town Center um it's intended to be the area within Dayton that will serve as um kind of the heart of the community for this it's not intended to be a regional draw it's intended to be something that all the residents of Dayton can utilize having some of those commercial retail and offices entertainment venues Civic spaces and then higher density residential development to support those areas um along with that there's the support for the public town square town center and a Boulevard Town Center so um a lot of the survey results came back saying those were the most desired of the options for the Town Center um so the land use plan essentially gives a route for that to go um with the park being the focal point at the end and then the mixed use centered on the roadway that leads from it you can kind of get that linear feel as you move to the park and then the park creates the focal point um that is the ending point essentially of the Town Center Drive area um so that's hoping that things develop along those corridors like that um and then there's prevent preference for commercial opportunities so there's a big um and this probably is familiar with everybody but there's a big want for cafes and restaurants retail um entertainment venues farmers markets and grocery we all came back very high um wanting to get those opportunities there are many opportunities in there with all those uses being allowed in the commercial and the mixed use areas um for those uh things to develop the Town Center is shown as the pink area so as I was talking about that linear feel um it does move along kind of in a linear fashion with a little bit of development on both the North and the South side of the roadway connecting or intersecting between the Town Center pink area um with the park being the landing point at the West End um so having that focal Green Space point was important and then preserving um some area on French Lake um which will have corridors surrounding it as well Trail corridors as well um having a mixture of residential office commercial and Civic um focusing on that walkable environment so like I mentioned the the street profile through here would be the parkway street so much more walkable environment friendly having uses that are branched off of it and you wouldn't have parking on the actual Parkway Street some parking not a lot of parking on the parkway Street um and then including architecture standards that are included for the Town Center um to focus on diverse styles with clear entrance and ground floor windows so having that first level on your walkable environment having that first level with lots of Windows lot lots of clear entrances that are designed in the architecture that way um with franchise architecture discouraged as part of that so making the franchises um whether it be McDonald's or things like that blend into the surrounding architecture so not having standouts um to kind of have a cohesive environment for the architecture and then building facade standards that are slightly higher for the Town Center so just what I'm saying hire a little bit more of what you call Top tier quality materials whether it's stone or brick or things like that um and then also having additional facade standards in terms of breaking up the building having um you know horizontal and vertical breakups on the building structure itself so with that um the diverse styles kind of felt like there was a mix of traditional um with that slightly higher standard so these were some example images of what those buildings could look like with a walkable environment so you have kind of the ground level Focus within um either residential or office above in terms of next steps uh so the city council has tedly scheduled to review this um and approve the Dayton Parkway master plan at their November 26th meeting is the tentative schedule for that um and so tonight we'd be looking for the Planning Commission to provide feedback and make a recommendation to the city council um and I will not it is a public hearing tonight as well um so um whenever you're ready to do that but otherwise I'll stand for questions for staff if you have any before before the public hearing I guess I have one initial question for staff before we get going on this um what was the cost of this master plan about 40,000 I think 45 is 45,000 okay mhm all right that was my initial question uh with that any other questions for staff before I open the public hearing not yet no okay this is a public hearing we will open it at 7:57 if you have any comments please come forward state your name and address you got I'll give you a little over 3 minutes if you're rambling I'll cut you off again I'm Scott shy 11 1980 East FR Lake Road been here before and talked to all of you uh back a year ago uh nothing's changed in the plan um I have a lot of respect for what you guys do in the time you give but I don't really feel a lot of respect coming back you have property owners in this area that have uh invested decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars and their lives and their properties and in instead of relying on the property owners you went and had a little online survey and a bunch of people say they want a new Starbucks I'm not out here because I want a Starbucks okay um this is you're you're taking an open area that's already environmentally friendly and you're going to spend millions and tens of millions of dollars destroying it and then you're going to put in islands in the parking lot and pretend that you're being environmentally friendly it's nuts now I know that it will develop someday but I'm getting mixed signals from the people that I talk to kind of feel like I've been blown off told this isn't going to happen for 10 or 20 or 30 years but I'll say what I said last year I'll say what I said at the open house I'll say what I called Kevin and had him on the phone for 45 minutes cuz he put his phone number out there um I don't want the line through my dining room to be on the map now because in 10 years when you do put the road in and I come in and complain you're going to go the road's been there for 10 years you move the road 300 ft for no practical reason the the I'm not a civil engineer but I've worked in engineering for decades I'm sorry but there there is no safety reason for moving that road moving at 300 fet is not changing the curve to some extent the cars are going to be flying off and there's going to be Carnage on the curves it's just not true it used to be just sou of my property I'm not here trying to stop any development what other people want to do with their properties I'm a I'm a property owner right guy if people want it if the people that own the property around me want to develop I'll end up sitting there in warehouses or whatever but don't force me off the land so I have one question I don't know if we can ask questions but could you identify any modifications to the master plan as a result of input from property own I would like to know the same I I'll be [Music] honest so thank you all right thanks Scott you just for our sake can you point to which property is yours on the map the orange and red right there okay y thank you anyone else anyone else for public come on forward again Lee hulquist 11471 fir Brook Lane I know you didn't put a gas station in there got all this great development why didn't we think it was worth putting a gas station in there I mean you got cars all these pictures show hundreds of cars there I think you should put a gas station there if you're going to put one in the city someplace that seem reasonable or does it seem like you're just trying to put that gas station down by my house so that's all I got I just want you to think about it thank youa Grover 11320 Fernbrook um when Maple Grove first we lived here forever and when Maple Grove first built their little Arbor Lakes there you know they didn't have a parking ramp and they soon discovered that there was a lot of cars that were coming and no place to park them and I don't see anything in the plans about parking for this since then Maple Grove has built two parking ramps for their downtown shopping area what are you going to do about parking here that's my question thank you anyone else here well I think I'm the Newbie on the Block I only lived out here about 17 years Jackie bruss 117 uh uh 1602 117th I'm next to the proposed fire station location um so probably more comments than questions and concerns um back to the survey uh I have found yet one person that has received the survey I know you said it was on multiple platforms there was no indication that was going to be coming out um I'm curious and maybe I don't know where it is but is there a copy of this survey and the results and kind of curious as to what all questions were asked and were there negative feedbacks on that were there people that did not want a fire station across from the residential um development of brayburn uh cost of a fire station cost cost of a lad truck increased taxes to the rest of us for that I know there's going to be a need for those things um but from my understanding uh the fire calls have gone up 5% with the new developments if I'm correct I know emergency calls are higher uh there is an industrial area on the other side is there not a better place for a fire station than in a residential place also I think most of us in here that are land owners in that place tax considerably a few years ago on proposed future land value now you tell me is my land value going to go up with a fire station next to it that was based on the master plan of 2040 which had my land designated for something else we also granted you guys an easement based on the 2040 plan and it did not show a fire station next to me so several comments I don't know if you guys guys are land owners you made it sound like you are would you like a fire station next to you at all okay I think you should consider that I think the rest of us feel the same way land owners have been left out of this and yet we were taxed for the Dayton Parkway because of future land value yes yes and I didn't see a survey I don't know how I would responded I don't even know where it is I've looked online I'm not techsavvy I hate talking to crowds you can hear my voice but yeah I if anyone of you want a fire station next your house and then expect to sell your land in 10 years you know go for it but please consider that when you are making these kind of plans so I probably have more to say but I won't I appreciate you coming up Ju Just for clarity so this survey that we're referring to was I can yeah so the survey was done last year in October so 2023 October not this current October all the results from that survey were included as part of this packet tonight there was each of the responses knew about the surve I can if you just I try to get through let's just anyone else i' prefer to do the public hearing comment portion then I'll respond all of the questions anyone else for the public hearing on this one that would like to come forward I check online here if anybody's online for this item you can feel free to raise your hand sorry I wanted to say one more thing and it's kind of in response to his comment about the traffic on a Dayton Parkway on 117th I belong to several um bulletin boards you might call them for the cities in the area and I believe that North bound Brockton is blocked off right yep and and Rogers Champlain Maple Grove they're all saying go down Dayton Parkway and 117th because it's a nice New Road and you can get you can bypass that bottleneck on Brockton Lane so I'm thinking that part of the reason maybe is because of the north Brockton being yeahor northbound yep but yeah it's it's all over the news that there's a nice New Road in Dayton and it bypasses all that stuff so it's a highway yeah anyone supposed to anyone else here for public comment on the master plan all right with that I'm going to close the public hearing at 8:07 um I guess m do you want me to address something of the questions Mr chair I guess I have I before you address some of the questions on the survey I do recall seeing the survey um but I I don't recall seeing it publicly advertised on several of our sites and several of the bulletins so I'll just I'll state that as as an observation it granted it was a year ago but I don't recall it it was on the Facebook page cuz I saw it completed it but not saying I I did complete it I do recall not seeing it publicly advertised I I think that survey is kind of a mute point Kevin meaning that there was not that many in the big picture there wasn't many respondents in my opinion you might think it's you might think it's good considering your past experience but it's it's not a good representation for the city of dayon so I don't think we need to spend much time on it we need to spend time on figuring out what to do next that's fine I just want to make sure that everybody knew that it was out there it was published on both the city website and the and the Facebook page along with uh the quarterly look at we're old we don't do that what's wrong with mail the communicator yeah it was in the Dayton Communicator as well all right so so I I do agree it was and this has been one of my grapes of the city is we don't we have such big land owners that we don't notify out far enough from I mean John you've heard it from me a couple times that we did we our distance from the developable sites or areas isn't going out far enough sometimes on on just sites and so I agree with this with some of these residents that there's better ways that we can do this as a city and as we move forward um I guess that being said my first and utmost comment on this when did we start this process Dennis do you do you remember 18 months ago yeah and prior and prior what June 27th of 2023 of 2023 and prior to that we kind of knew that Zanzibar was going to be headed to the South and prior to that we've we've kind of known that Dayton Parkway is going to connect to Zanzibar at some point and and in 2022 a property sold just adjacent to to Zanzibar on the south and we have a ton of property owners here tonight who were not who do not want a road going through their house and there was a property for sale and we as a city did not take advantage of that and I am disappointed I'm going to say that up upmost here sitting as a chair we had a property owner willing to sell that we could have put a a road right through and we as a city failed to move forward on that knowing that that Zanzibar has been an extension to the South for a long time so I apologize on behalf of the city or in my role up here because I've sat up here for at least six years now so um that going forward um I I I think a couple of comments that I I want to address first off this is a master plan based on zoning we're not talking about uses so we're not talking about gas stations or or parking ramps here we're talking about what the what the land use could be not specific uses to that um some of those uses that you guys discussed with gas stations or parking ramps could be could be utilized in these locations if it's warranted I'll just want to say that outright um I had one other thing on this I guess my overarching personal comment and I've made this before as we brought this forward and I'm going to State it again is I don't think this study area even though we did expand it I don't think it captured the connection from Dayton Parkway and the traffic issues going on in the current zoning to the south of here to the to Zanzibar I think this needed to be further expanded and and looked at from a regional traffic standpoint to I believe it was Scott's point we show lines on here through through properties of non- willing sellers or people who are not anticipating and yes these are fat lines the city and staff and I recognize that these are fat lines drawn on there but on the flip side to Scott's point I've seen I've seen government agencies use these fat lines against residents and so we need to do a better job so I'll say that and open it up for further discussion or comments I'm fairly new into the into this mess I guess I would say um since I just got appointed to the Planning Commission in last fall um I think actually I think January December January was my first meeting um this has confused me uh from the very beginning why we're talking about it I think there are other more pressing issues in Dayton than this um I kind of agree I think the roads are the bigger issue we got to get the roads figured out in a way that makes sense and then we can talk about land use I feel like we're kind of putting the cart before the horse um I I also never saw the survey um though that doesn't necessarily mean anything even though I am on Facebook uh part of the problem with Facebook is their algorithm is garbage and they don't show everyone everything so I think we need to not rely on on an on a giant Corporation to decide who gets to know what information about our city um I also think that we've got some potential commercial areas in Dayton that could use some real attention like the historic village R Tree Plaza and we should I think I think we need a proof of concept that there are enough people in Dayton to make it worth like if I were if I wanted to start a coffee shop and I saw that there are literally open spots down in Maple Grove right now where they already have a lot of traffic and then I came to any of the supposedly commercial areas in Dayton I would never in a million years choose to open anything in Dayton um so I think we need to to show in our current places that we we can be a good place for someone to open a business and so that's where our attention needs to be I don't think our attention I think this is a giant waste of time and money personally um and I don't like any of it thank you you want to follow it I'll follow it and I I apologize to staff if I feel like that uh you get you're getting beat up I do appreciate everything you guys do um but just to give everyone in the audience here some history because there's work sessions but I've actually been a pretty vocal against having a master plan I think it's a not a good idea to master plan 640 acres we not that good with that being said I don't I think it's important that we don't forget why this process started why this process started it's I'm just going to get up here and walk with but Dayton Parkway the X got eliminated right this was the original alignment of Dayton Parkland right something happened before my time where this road got shifted to here and because of this we had to address land issues and when this conversation started like Peter was saying we needed to figure out wherever dayon parkley is how to get from here to there and that was the initial point of this conversation get the transportation plan figured out um I'm sorry uh if it goes to your house that's not the intention but you know I've done this enough where I know that if you ask a farmer if it goes through the middle of field they're going to give you the exact same answer because try to farm a field with a road through the middle of your field so no one's no one's not going to be harmed I guess is what I'm trying to say when this happens I don't know when it's GNA happen Okay so once we figured out the road pattern the next most important thing is to have a discussion on land uses we didn't have to have a master plan to have a discussion on land uses because we need to shift the land uses so commercial is next to a major road when it comes to you that was the whole initial point of this conversation this figure where the roads is make sure these like all these commercial uses that I keep getting emails from residents from which I get we didn't address it that was my thought when we started this process is we're going to address this stuff Sal for 11 17 because it needs to chain because the road change and we're not we still haven't done that so but some of this area wasment time frame right just to clarify the master plan did not go south of 17 correct correct and that's we were like Peter we should have ex we we've stood at that at at least at the Planning Commission that this did not address for the residen is the Planning Commission has suggested multiple times that this needs to go further south and address that land use and roadway network south of 117 so I'll let this this area was in current development this area 117 current staging that was my concern is that that's why we need to address it because someone could potentially develop it today and we might get stuck with the use we don't want yeah because the road shifted yeah so we're trying to stay in line with the current development time frames and making sure that our zoning matched the proposed Road alignments yeah before before you make any more comments just I will give I after we discuss here a little bit I will open it up for a short period of public comment just because I saw your hand go up just so you're aware all right so I guess I hope everyone understands that not everyone's out here to drive a this cment through Dayton that wasn't the intention this is where we ended up unfortunately um which I don't even know like by the way the benefit of this plan is that when we start the 2050 comp plan we have a basis for roads I think the land use is still need a lot of work because there's too much high density residential in this area I don't fully grasp to put this in perspective to the audience there's over 3,500 multifam units so that's not that's about 20 to 30 buildings depend how many units are building that's a lot and I don't think we need that kind of density I don't understand I don't understand the math the city's using to get the three units an acre I feel like if there's 11 units an acre because that's about what this is in the 640 acre I feel like we're way over what we need to be by the met counil and so we it's hard to address that with this master plan because you have to take the whole city in consideration not just this master plan but that's what we're going to do when we start the 2050 comp plan so there's too much Orange in this in my opinion um so that's one thing that I'd like to see change when we do the comp plan I mean this is a basis to start it and the last thing is regarding the blue chunk that just popped up in the last three weeks so I don't really have a lot of comments I meaning that I've already been vocal at the Planning Commission me I don't think it's a great place for a fire station um but so I've said it I don't know what else to say thank you yeah I think in general I mean well planned cities take time right and so you have to start somewhere and this is you know a couple iterations in but it's also a long ways out and so there's there's time to refine and continue the conversation and you showing up and and voicing your your opinions and thoughts is important to that process um so you've heard from of my fellow Commissioners that they don't feel like this is the right direction and I mean we're like Darren said we're kind of stuck with point a and point B for the road and so how that gets there there's a thousand different ways right so that'll continue to be refined as these plans develop and we go into the next comprehensive plan process with the Met Council um so there's going to be plenty more opportunities to kind of look at this and review it um with regards to the fire station they need to be by residential areas to serve residential areas so it's just a matter of is it directly across the road like it is with Ley Farms um is it more tucked into a commercial area so it's a little farther away removed from um residents possibly but if the date Parkway isn't built yet and the fire station is deemed necessary it needs to go on a on a road Network right and the date and Parkway is not there yet so um you know I think there's considerations on timing and in placement and land availability is another part of that so I guess I'll I'll lay my my last comments here that I have I think I think Darren I think you said it best that this plan is kind of garbage and we need to we need to really figure out the roadway connection I think we we as a city made a foolish decision to bring Dayton Parkway all the way to 117th the way it's shown and I think we need to really re-evaluate that and see if we can bring it on either the North or the South side of that pond that is on the the it is the D ddl Holdings property I think to one of our uh public comments earlier of use the existing roadways that we have and build them out I think we really need to seriously think about that and and listen to them because if we were to take that that one property owner that's a willing seller to to development yes we lose on some development and yes we lose on some potential tax base there but is it the best use for the land when we have other willing sellers or not willing Sellers and other people who want to be residents other people who want to have businesses or Farms or other things along our roadways in Dayton is it the best use to land in my opinion yes um and so we need to look at that a little bit more and think about that are we willing to relocate I know Jason you've said it in the past we have utilities under the roadway that are there today I think that roadway could stay that's there today it could be narrowed up in in the the drive AIS section as it's shown and have the main roadway head to the north northwest or Northeast as it's kind of depicted between the what's the lighter purple and the purple and red there and and really get it realigned not necessarily back to what the X was but get it back to the intersection of French Lake and 117th I think if we solve that area the rest of it becomes more clear and more um there's there's easier decisions to be made as we go north we have a lot of a lot of individual Property Owners to work with down there that we're going to be as it's drawn and Scott said it and there's other property owners that aren't here but there's a lot of property owners that we're cutting right through living rooms right through front front doors of homes and people that actually live on the properties and the property I'm talking about there is not there is one there's one house that I've seen being cleared out for the last 2 and A2 years on that property they've had dump trucks and garbage and dumpsters out there being cleared out we have someone who's not wanting to live there yet we have other people who are wanting to live here and we're showing a line right through their door so I think I think we got to we got to take a step back from a what's what's a business standpoint to what's driving our community and it's the residents and we got to look at the people who want to live here not just the people who want to make a buck off our land being developed and that's that's my standpoint on on this thing is I think we need to really revisit this and and actually in my opinion throw this out it was a waste of $40,000 and I could have I could have drawn this up in a matter of minutes and I'm I don't mean to I don't mean to bra you y I just it's it's not any different than what we saw 10 years ago when I moved into the city so with that any other comments from commissioners I I know we had one resident who would like to maybe say something a couple residents um I would like to open it back up so they could say their piece because the the comments weren't open 3 minutes no comment from Commissioners we're going to end it after that and not give any more comments so one last time for Commissioners I'm fine all right public hearing is back open at 8:25 come on up 3 minutes and I live to uh 38 years and I'm on the corner of 117th in could you uh state your name please Patricia NS thank you um I'm concerned because this has changed so much five years ago we had a special tax assessment that we had to pay and a bunch of us right in that area because we were going to be commercial and uh mine was $26,000 well a bunch of us we hired lawyers a lawyer excuse me and we got this reduced because why in the world would not all of Dayton have to pay for this why was it centered on this area of land then last summer I think it was the because Orlando was supposed to be worth so much more Last Summer the fire department came in and they took a look at our property and we were offered taxable market value it's like what are you kidding me you know I just this whole thing stinks and I'm I'm really angry about it and like I say it cost us a lot of money to get the lawyer and and then then um the amount we did end up paying they still um charged interest on the $26,000 for two years which was like 1,300 bucks and I just think this whole thing is the stupidest thing I've ever seen so just my opinion but you know my neighbors you know in that surrounding area and now we're not commercial now you know they change it so yeah wouldn't that be nice okay that's what I have to say thank you thank you my name is Kathy powers and I live on 11461 Fernbrook Lane and I've been coming to the council meetings and the planning meetings for probably about a year now because I felt it was time I get involved well what I've seen here is that you're more interested in getting everything developed in Dayton rather than your mission statement of keeping it a rural and I just don't see anybody on the Planning Commission saying stop let's stop and re-evaluate and get a good plan here for Dayton because you're right A lot of people want to come and live here but they don't want to live here without proper roads transportation and that thing and as far as the Dayton Parkway I never liked it in the first place but kind of got stuck there so I think you as planning people need to sit down and sit back and really do a planning study and look at Dayton as an overall City and make it enjoyable for people to come here and don't forget about the roads and I live on Fernbrook and no I don't want 117 to come over to Fernbrook but but I think we need to be considered um the transportation part of it in the roads instead of just willly me saying oh you want to develop this land go ahead because I get all kinds of money for taxes so that's my spee right uh Kyle Johnson uh 15262 uh 116th Avenue North so just right on 117th um there was a a brief remark um just about timing factoring into the fire station so I did just want to make a statement that a lot of us in our community and braber and trails feel that um related to that that there have been some discussions that feel a little rushed um and that uh it's being talked about the fire station being in that blue area because it needs to happen quickly um and a lot of us still feel like we haven't been given um a strong enough justification for the reason for for that uh as a community uh we were told by uh some people that our community was split on it but we uh all had uh a little powow um to discuss all of that and not one person voice support for it in that location um and there are a few people uh here today that I think got extra votes from our community uh that they may not have gotten because uh they showed a willingness to um listen to our community and have further discussion on that so I know that this is not the Forum where any decisions are going to be made but every opportunity I have uh to just put that out there I want the the people that represent us and got support from us to uh make sure that they're advocates for us and at a minimum uh allow us to have discussion and the time to make a proper decision right thank you thank you evening I'm Stephanie Johnson from 17100 117th Avenue North part of the uh light purple there uh Business Park area um I just want to say that on Monday I was bringing my trash can down to the road because Tuesday morning is pickup day and I see a headlights big truck coming so I steep back a little bit behind my garbage can and the who from that huge truck practically you know sucked me right into it uh they someone did put uh you know your uh a traffic sign and your speed is but that hasn't been working for 3 weeks maybe two days 5 days it was on it but it's not working now and our speed limit supposed to be 40 but oh God they these 53 Footers they they just they're going too fast that's all thank you very much hopefully listened to me earlier my name is Mike ninger I've turned in my slip already we had mentioned about the traffic made mention about people getting hurt that's not what I'm really here at this precise moment to tell you first I will tell you something the reason why Maple Grove Parkway is where it's at and there's some people City Hall must have approved it and I know I got the mayor just right here but it's because because the cubes needed a road to their new facility 1 million square foot as they advertise it otherwise that Maple Gro Parkway Road would not be there Dayton Parkway just to be or Dayton Park forget me I get confused once in a while okay but uh the cubes are why the road is there and it butts into the dead end of 117th going right over over a neighbor's house and yard and everything else possibly uh I would think that the original plan going around and up cutting through the red uh in that area like you said Darren said it going up and then around very more user friendly due to the fact that if you leave it the way it is right now the invite enironmental impact you have on French Lake number one you're messing with a lake I don't care what you say and what you do you're messing environmentally with a lake along with your proposed and I hate to say this because I I'd love to see it but your uh facility you want to put up in the green that is a detriment to environmental practices I can't believe that we're even thinking about that I don't think that it shouldn't be done I think that it needs to be replaced with in an area there is not going to environmentally uh have any possibility of of hurting our nature um the other part that I'd like to just suggest you want a place to put the fire department somebody suggested that that could go didn't suggest but talked about a my family of friends in Dayton that maybe it should go right across from the cubes because that land is available there's no residential people there at all and why I don't know if that blue square has been purchased by Cydia Dayton or not but if it has that's a mistake could have been bought right next across the street from the cubes even so much as to say is there's those circles there traffic circles if you want to call it that land is Barren and empty and it could be used for a fire department more user friendly to the highway more user friendly to the uh residents of city of Daton so my uh whole impact is still hate the traffic we got to figure a way to fix that because if these people aren't pulling these permits they're all overloaded and they all should be fined every one of them and like my neighbor just told you she almost got run over by a truck happens all the time I've been told the kids have been involved running out under the street you know what does a four-year-old kid do running after a ball boom he's hit by a truck I think that we need to do some real thought process of where we're going to put your roads and our environment and the fire station thanks for listening thank you last call anyone else all right with that we'll own we'll close the public hearing at 8:37 uh and there's no action on this item there is so a couple of points here um and just for clarity and and Kevin or anyone else can correct me so the pro the project area is I'm going to say it is what it is so uh when this project started there's a uh I call it a project scope that was given to the council um this border was chosen based on the project cost so yes there are areas that we've talked about outside of the project boundary um but that is not included that's beyond the scope of this project um so that includes everything south of 117th and we didn't really talk about it um everything north of 125th um we've talked about that in previous uh Planning Commission meetings um regarding the fire station so the blue square it for the the purposes of this project is identified as a public purpose whether it's a fire station a park a city hall a school you know it it's a public use not necessarily a fire station um the city purchased that property in with the intention of fire station that could change um so just to be clear the intent I'm going to say currently as as it applies to this plan is for a public use um I a third point so what the plan commission is asked to do is to provide a recommendation to accept this plan uh to the council if you're not comfortable with it then you have the option of trying to change the plan before it goes to council or just not providing any recommendation it it's it's up to you what you want to do with it um we've worked on this for over a year um yeah I guess you know it's the intent is you this is not going to um elicit any changes to zoning or a comprehensive plan Amendment this is as Darren said this is going to be the basis for when we work on the 2050 comprehensive plan in a couple years from now I guess I guess with that we will open it back up for discussion amongst the planning Comm Commissioners um I would say just to start off my recommendation is going to stay stay with what I I had suggested back in um at least in March if not during our joint work session in May well in May and in March when we saw this previously first off those were the only two times we saw this so to say it was put together with the Planning Commission as a misstatement it was only brought in front of us two times and not put together with us um I would say I would wholly reject this and and ask that it be redone and rezoned to look at solving issues with Transportation before we look at land use um and yes Transportation does have to go beyond what's shown here because it is it is a whole you can't get here if you don't agree how to get here um we have I'll I'll say it right now and there's residents in the room Who currently live on Fernbrook who've lived on Fernbrook for years just because we have a roadway in place today doesn't mean we can't do it better and we have that opportunity with that light blue Road that's shown up here to do it better so that's that's going to be what I'm standing on and why I don't I don't agree with this at all and thank you I think it I I think it's I said it before I think it's garbage we were part of working sessions so early on yeah clarify we were only part of two okay I think yeah um and well and and to that point I brought that comment up at both of them and the council I'm throwing this back on the council because they were on who dictated where this was and how much money we were going to spend did not did not increase the area that we were looking at they may have agreed with it but did not increase the area so one of them absolutely disagreed with the SES of it also yeah I know the one sitting in the room oh I so I think there's some good things about this plan so I'm with Peter though that I'm struggling to re make a recommendation to approve this to council um but I don't think that it's as the the good thing about it is that somewhere maybe gets shifted to the east maybe it stays where at there is going to be a centralized location what I don't like about it is all the orange I just think it's unrealistic it's not going to happen that way it's just not going to happen so I'm struggling with it that way the challenge with this area when you look at this is look at all the 10 acre lots nothing wrong with it right that's great but it's going to be a hard area to ever get developed it's going to take forever because a lot of people don't want to develop and which rightfully so that's their choice and so Shifting the road um I would agree if we if we could raise some money the problem with where the Dayton Park was built I don't know the exact figure but it's a big number to tear up what we did and redo it so I don't know I agree with Peter if we could just raise some money that'd be the perfect answer but that's going to be a tough answer because someone made a mistake and there's a lot of money spent who funded that road the public technically there was Tiff via cubes to pay for it but ultimately we would they had to give Tiff to cubes if we didn't have the road there so um couple of things Dayton Parkway must connect the zanab bar I've been out of not everyone agrees with me I get it but an adment that it has to connect sooner than later because there's been a lot of growth in North Dayton it's the reason Fernbrook a big reason firm Brook is so busy and only going to get busier and so at some point in time sooner than later we need to figure out how to connect North dat to the rest of the city but we just don't have a North South Road we just don't um yeah I have two minor suggestions to change with the plan but I guess I'm going to just leave them demo cuz I'm thinking my recommendation is not to adopt this plan and one of thing that I'm trying to be consistent on too is not to pick on other groups or staff but when the Old Village plan came forward I was disappointed that that just got shoved through and approved because I thought it was crap too if we're going to approve a plan let's believe in it otherwise let's use this as a learning tool and exercise for the next time we do it maybe the learning tools what not to do there are I think part of my struggle is there's so many pieces to this plan um some of the things I do like and those are the things like um some of the architectural designs and making sure that if you know there is a McDonald's it can't look like a McDonald's it has to look like the community it's in and um and trying to make sure that we're really prioritizing environmentally friendly designs and things like that and making sure it looks special like I have no problem with any of that my problem is with its physical location in the city right like if we picked up this idea and some of these things and applied them to the historic village that would make more sense to me right so like I don't want to say that there's absolutely nothing good in here I think there are some good things in here I just don't think this is the proper location for them um and like I said I I was not part of the picking of the space but to me this is not this is not that space and I think we have to think think about the roads more and I I do live on sansar and I was fully aware when I purchased it that the plan was to connect it and that also there's this bridge plan and I I know that I'm aware of that fact you know but like I I bought it fully knowing that but I think there's a difference between a arterial line that passes through whose sole purpose is to get cars to go past me quickly and safely and maybe it's a big giant you know overpass that I can just kind of ignore you know yes it'll be loud but like it's not going to be like there are ways we can do it and I think we have to decide are these roads for Dayton residents or are these roads for people who don't want anything to do with Dayton and they just want to quickly get from one side to the other um because that's a very different road that goes into a very different location and how we connect to it is very different and I I think the transportation plan has to come first um but I don't want to I don't want to throw everything away because I think there are some value Val things here and we spent money on it and I am cheap so I do think there are some valuable things here that could be used in other parts of the city that we did get you know there was some feedback and as a mathematician getting 200 responses on a survey quite frankly is amazing um I know it doesn't feel that way but as I can tell you that's actually shocking and very high and so I do think that those residents input is valuable and we need to acknowledge it and find a way to use it I just don't think this is the location in dayon that it should be used so I would also not I would not be in favor of of saying yes to this plan but I also don't want to just light it on fire like I would like to salvage as much out of it as we can there's value in every study I mean I'm I'm an architect I'm a designer I you go through iterations some are good some are bad you don't show the client everything you know um so there is value in this as some of the other Commissioners have said um you know how the development will look how the character all that how the road runs through it obviously is a hot point um it is a thorough fair that needs to happen from north to south to get that connection to take pressure off of fern Brook like Darren said otherwise it's either that or Brockton right we have nothing in the Middle With all Development coming um whether this is the right spot for a town center I don't know right like it's kind of just popped in the middle but so yeah I mean more thought for sure but I I think there's still a lot of things to learn from this I I appreciate all the hard work that's been put into it um whether we like the graphic at on the cover or not there's still a lot of meat in The Proposal that we can learn from and that we can take a spring board for the next round so I guess the the one thing that I would comment back on and piggy back on Darren's comments we do have a lot of smaller 10 acre plus or minus Lots here that is very tough and a very challenging area but but if we look back at what what we want what we value most about Dayton and some of the things we hear from residents is we don't have enough of those and we're showing this plan right through a number of these areas where we have it right on Lake a lake we have it right we have existing homes all along 117th we have um the Lake Properties yes I know there's not homes on all those but they're individual Parcels that could be developed today as as that and that is what I'm struggling with with this just to the east of here we have a bunch of 40 acre plus Parcels that we don't have anything we have one home on and you slide this a little a little bit over you you realign that roadway that that's on Dayton Parkway you realign it a little bit and it's right there and I would buy right into it but here we have the unique properties in Dayton and I know not not everyone in this room is property owners in this master plan area but this is what's cool about Dayton and we need to preserve it so with that do we have a recommendation or hey I'm going to I've got some interpretation from what I've heard so the direction that I'm hearing from the Planning Commission is to focus on kind of where we started out a year year and a half two years ago is how do you connect point A to point B how do you connect Dayton Parkway to zanar as far as the location in the Town Center if this isn't it because of I'm going to say the difficulties of development because you have a lot of homes a lot of smaller acre of moving the Town Center in an area that's more sparsely populated I I would agree with that I don't think the Town Center location's horrible because there's going to be a main thoroughfare I think that the degree of stuff around the town center is the issue in my mind mean like I could let's yeah if it shifted a little bit to the east yeah but in general it's in the can we can we take a step back from that and say can we just figure out how to get from Zanzibar to Dayton Parkway and I'm not talking Dayton parkway at at 117th I'm talking Dayton Parkway and the roundabout because that is the key we I think I think a lot of us in the room maybe not all everyone up here but where it's connected to 117th is not the right spot that roundabout is is the right spot where we need to connect ssar too and how we get there needs to be figured out before we figure out where that town center is we need to figure out the willing the Willing sellers up on the North side and how we're going to do that because right now we've shown for years we've shown it going through that parcel for years and the parcel just to the east of that I said it at the beginning of this the parcel just for the east of that went for sale in 2022 for 650,000 and you tell me that that today is not going to be over a million when the city tries to acquire that parcel we could have gotten it we could have gotten it two years ago let not lined up with sbar we're talking a 30 foot offset a 30 foot offset on either side from a willing seller is a lot more so kind of I I'm going to speak for the council a little bit the the position is is that this the development of the master plan area isn't going to move forward without uh willing Property Owners selling their land in general so then why why are we doing it that that's the whole point you still have to you have we still at some point in think forward and first of all yeah we have the plans we've had a lot of feedback that we're not good at planning and guess what we haven't been our 2040 plan is what is an issue we have to plan for it because Council changes not saying that you know the new residents someday are going to outnumber the people that want to preserve Dayton so we have to plan for it executing it's going to be a whole different problem and people it's not going to make people happy all people but we have to plan for it and when it happens I guess there's going to be there's not everyone's going to be happy it's just that easiest way to say it but we have to plan for it otherwise we're going to keep bailing like we have but right now we have to decide what we're doing this plan yeah I'm I'm I think I've decided I don't I wouldn't recommend the adopting this plan I'm not saying that we can't use it and study it and bring up topics from it because there is a lot of great stuff in there about the resiliency and stuff like that for the town center but I don't think giving the perception that this is the plan for any of the property owners any of the property owners that potentially sell their property to someone that wants to maintain what's there or someone that even wants to develop that's the wrong answer to approve this plan because people make decisions based upon this plan all the questions did you have any more clarity no well I just one other note if um so again the or when this project started the intent was and this is before the pro the project started if the city doesn't have a vision for how we want it to grow the developers are going to choose for the city so the whole idea of having this master plan if if it takes 20 or 30 years to develop it takes that long but if we don't have a vision it's going someone else is going to decide fors I agree with you 100% John which is why I'm so frustrated we haven't looked at Sala on 17th the developers are going to choose what happens there because we're not doing anything about it and and I will say we've brought up we've brought up and there's there's members of the audience who can attest to it because we've brought up for for at least two to three years now the transportation plan of the city and it has not been addressed and we thought not that this was going to be the end all Beall of addressing it but it is still the the Crux of the issue is we don't have a transportation plan that anyone can agree with and that's that's why I don't I can't agree with this is is this does not align with the transportation plan in any in any way that we've talked about no the transportation your plan you're referring to is the 2040 comp plan which was the X and then we took the x out which which and when the whole Focus the challenge with the X was the entire Focus was only on Fernbrook yes and it shouldn't have been it should have been and we asked for it to look at everything at that point mhm and that's the whole that's the whole problem with this is we're looking at such a small area to try to solve a small area when it's really a holistic issue right but what what we're what you're being asked to look at is this one square mile scope and what I'm telling you is I'm rejecting this because we can't look at the whole issue yeah we can't look beyond that these boundaries and therefore therefore we can't go beyond so I make a motion to reject this plan I'll second all those in favor I I all those opposed to rejecting uh motion is rejected four to zero what the plan is this will go to the city council on December November 26 all right thank you quick trip do you want to go your might be before before the day over I'm going to take a quick bathroom break yeah I mean do we just take a five minute let's just take a five minute break bathroom break yeah sure yeah e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e 906 will resume the Planning Commission uh next item of business 8 C quick trip thank you Mr chair uh members of the Planning Commission if you recall uh this uh application was a EV inevitable variance uh to the design ordinance uh requested by the Quick Trip location located at Maple Grove or Maple Court excuse me um immediately west of the RDO property along I94 um this uh development was originally approved in May of 2024 under a conditional use permit uh everything on the site development was approved at that time minus the sign plan as uh that was understood to be come back to come back to the Planning Commission and city council for re-review um and as such the applicants have applied for a variance uh to the sign ordinance related to the pylon sign they wish to uh Place adjacent TI 94 um the proposed sign is 80t 80 ft tall uh 225 ft uh be located not at the primary entrance which is a code standard and within a drainage and utility eement and just for reference the code standard for sign height for pylon is 25 fet and the sign area for um that same freestanding sign would be 64 square feet here's just a review of the variance review criteria um the variance requests are subject to a three-part test requiring the variance to meet all parts of the test um that include the property owner proposes to use the property in a reasonable manner not permitted by the zoning ordinance uh the plight of the land owner is due to circumstances unique to the property not created by the land owner and the variance if granted will not alter the characteristic the essential character of the locality um and then just a notation economic considerations alone do not constitute practical difficulties uh within the packet youve found the quick drips uh the applicants narrative uh that uh addresses a few site constraints related to visibility of a code compliance sign um that include changes between uh the property the subject property and the interstate RightWay as well as the Dayton Parkway overpass um and including as well as uh Northeast of the property Northwest of the property excuse me as a Grove of trees and uh multiple Billboards that are shown within that sign survey that the applicant provided that impede uh visibility to a co-compliance sign and here are some references to a couple of the pictures that I pulled from The Narrative that uh show sign visibility for this proposed 80t um 225 square foot sign uh the applicant's reason for the request is uh mainly based on visibility of a c compliance sign um in order for uh I94 traffic to be able to recognize that there is a quick trip location um off dayen parkway uh and be able to safely maneuver um accordingly if they like to wish if they wish to visit that location or not um and uh I think that uh in the applicants original development sub middle um they had proposed a 60ft tall sign the applicants had done a sign survey for a 60ft tall sign as well as a the 80ft tall and the originally proposed 60ft tall sign would not uh offer the visibility that the applicants uh would need to place a sign here so that is why they have uh essentially changed that from 60 ft to 80 ft um staff's review of the request uh while staff acknowledges the site and surrounding area POS visibility issues for a c complian sign uh reviewing this rationale against the variance criteria did not necessarily warrant the variance um as there does not appear to be a practical difficulty on the property that wouldn't otherwise allow for a c compliance sign to be built um in this case Co compliance sign just wouldn't meet the applicant's visibility needs uh for a freestanding sign along I94 um and then additionally altering the character of the locality um a sign like this and a mostly undeveloped Interstate Corridor uh would likely set a precedence for future development expectations of signage in the area um as you're aware last month we reviewed a development application for some out lws of a mixed use development south of I94 um anticipating that there will be future development in that area that could set precedence for future developments to ask for um a sign of such as this so a couple of questions for the Planning Commission to consider tonight is does the applicant's rationale for the request warrant a variance in this case based on the information provided uh and two does the Planning Commission feel that the character of this Corridor will be altered if the interstate oriented sign is approved uh setting a precedent for other developments in the future uh to make similar requests uh as I stated before staff's recommendation was for denial however uh staff did draft two resolutions one for approval for denial if you found uh that the applicant's request warrants of variance uh so we have provided you with findings for both in the event that uh you feel that they're rationale make sense for a variance so with that I'll open it up for questions two clarification questions before we have anything else so tonight's ordinance is only related to the Quick Trip sign nothing else on quick Trip's property just for for the free-standing sign at hand that they propos to have uh in the would be the southeast corner of the property and is this a variance from the 6 foot sign or is this I'll go back or would we have to approve a 60 foot sign separately no no no they the variances for um exceeding this code standard of a 25 foot tall sign and then the 64 square foot tall um area I would say that the the 60 foot tall sign originally a part of the site plan was not um approved at that point so the 60 foot sign was not approved a discussion point but it's so the variance is to exceed 25 ft the variance so if we deny if we were to deny tonight they can't go back to 60 they'd have to come back in front of us again correct we didn't we did not I'm just we did not approve a 60 last time through my review of the minutes at the Planning Commission the city council um it was a discussion point but never uh acted on um directly and that it was understood that signage would come back at a later date yep y That's What I recall too I just wanted to yep so we got to discuss the the height overall of the sign tonight the size the and the size point of clarification too is one versus two signs is the variance so there's also the other sign on Dayton Parkway and Hollydale that's kind of part of this discussion too just that we can have later correct that uh that was a part of the site plan and the applicants have noted that they'd be able to meet the standard in that location for the sign um how right although potentially if we approve that sign maybe we can ask them to do something different with that other sign sure absolutely any other questions for staff no we applicant public hearing or public hearing first let's do the public hearing first uh 914 we open the public hearing on this sign issue would anyone like to come forward any more people online just just remember just the reason I asked for that clarification we're only talking about the the height of the sign or well the area as well and the area I mean the sign itself not not the gas station location right uh Keith Grover 11320 forro Lane I should just have a sticker on my forehead um when I drive along 94 you getting closer to the city it's coming in from the West it is so dang butt ugly to see all of those Billboards and signage that communities like Rogers have put along the road um I can't can't imagine why Dayton would want to go down that route if Quick Trip knew what our rules were and they obviously did because you already told them you didn't want them to put that big sign up there if they knew what that the rules were and yet they still decided to buy the property and go through all that process of getting permission to build quick trip there they knew what the rules were they knew what our signage requirements were I don't see why we would bend over backwards to let them put this huge that's tall 60 ft is a long ways up there and the the square footage of the sign is way in excessive from what our rules are now too right am I understanding that correctly yeah I'm not in favor of doing that if we do it for Quick Trip why don't we why would we not do it or why would why would every other developer that builds something along Dayton Parkway there between there and old 101 or anywhere along there why would they not come with the same variance or request I I just see you open up Pandora's box and a can of worms and first you got one and you got the next one then you got the next one you next one I think we have rules about signage in the city now that don't get enforce properly in fact I know we do and I think you guys are all aware of that too but to um to allow this you know this one entity to put this sign up I just don't think we should do it that's my opin I think they're butt ugly um there's signs along 94 west of here that you can see the gas station for a mile for crying out loud and I'm I'm envisioning that's what this thing is going to look like I don't think we need it in Dayton and that's my opinion thank you thank you can we put a rendering of the sign up please thank you just check just for clarification too in the in the packet that we were provided there is some distance relative to sign height yeah anyone else like to come forward on this one all right with that we'll close the public hearing at 9917 Dean would you like to it's not me this time I'm here for support you're sign expert all right good evening everybody Matthew lepy 1626 Oak Street Lacrosse Wisconsin home of quick trp thank you for your time tonight thank you to staff Hayden's been really good to work with John as well um appreciate you're having us tonight uh again just to be clear 60 foot sign's not what we're talking about we're talking about this one this one's 80 um we had a sign survey company that does sign surveys all over the country it's actually based in South Dakota so not too far away uh perform a survey here at the site um the drawing you see there is at scale uh so that is when you're driving by it it actually doesn't look much taller than that light pole there funny enough but we'll get into more of that in a moment um again the pylon sign along Dayton Parkway 25 ft tall all 64 Square ft that's code compliant so that one's really not an issue I don't think for staff other than were you concerned that it's not right at the entrance there on the North side are you okay that it's on Dayton because it's close to the north the Northwest I think that staff's interpretation was that based on it being on the site plan and and access from Dayton Parkway the location was not a concern okay all right so that one we're we're good on it sounds like have a couple questions but can I just make a point on this at least at least according to the packet this is less than a quarter mile view of the sign this particular photo less than a quarter mile just to give people perspective who may be only looking at this and not the half mile or you're on the offramp yeah you're literally on the offramp getting off there so as as you look at the packet it it's obviously got some other images in there so I can pull those up if you'd like yeah um May I do my PowerPoint quickly sure and then we'll go into the report with those photos if that's all right so thank you very much I appreciate it so again science survey company from South Dakota that does these all over the country uh for large truck stops small convenience stores in well all over the United States um here so 80 foot uh I will say originally what we figured out was that Grove of trees across state and Parkway if the sign had been put where it was originally shown on the site plan that went through this summer sign would have needed to be at least 125 ft tall that would not meet one of the variance criteria in city code for basically complying with the neighborhood not not altering the essential character of the locality that sort of thing 125t tall sign would have not met that that would have been too tall for the area so we didn't propose that because that's just too much um the 50 Foot Tall sign that was mentioned in that staff report this summer was in as as you were saying the Northwest kind of part there closer to Dayton Parkway but closer to The Interchange at that height and in that location you literally could not eastbound see it until you already passing the offramp so unfortunately that one really wasn't an option as I say the only sign you really could have seen coming ahead of time before the off-ramp in that location that was on the plane this summer was 125 ft which again nonstarter Too Tall so the last spot we surveyed and I'll have you go ahead in the slides um we've got the trees we have the overpasses the overpass if you're eastbound there as you're making a corner before it kind of straightens out um and then you've got the overpass itself for Dayton Parkway westbound generally pretty good you have the billboard in front of RDO there that digital billboard otherwise though once you make the corner and the road straightens out got a pretty decent view so go ahead on the next one um I would now jump into the the photos if we may uh from the report so what the science surveyor does is he takes videos and still of photographs and he puts up a blimp and then he can move the blimp sometimes he puts it at the height he needs or sometimes if he does a couple of them then he can Scale based on those other Heights that he's measured he can scale it so what we're looking at is to scale here so for example as we see this is westbound um and this is 7/10 from the exit so rounding the corner the Arrow when you puts that there means you can't really see the sign now you can see it at 610 so we're pretty good most any body in any Lane at this point traveling at highway speed would have enough time to see the sign barely over the digital billboard there we keep going closer then again you can see it just peeking over the digital billboard this is 5/10 of a mile so people should have enough time at speed to get there 410 it's pretty much behind that billboard hopefully that's not when somebody's looking to stop 3/10 of a mile Peaks out from behind the billboard at this point people better be moving over and getting toward the right lane to get off um especially if traffic's moving it regular Interstate speed here's 2/10 of a mile 1/10th you had better be committed at this point because here's the on-ramp or the offramp rather excuse me and then right at the exit uh that was the photo we saw a moment ago and again um you see some of the other lights there on the adjacent property and things so that's the view as you had westbound now the eastbound view um is more difficult here's 7/10 rounding the corner it's nowhere in sight 610 same story 510 you might be able to see a fraction of it over the overpass but again this presumes people are looking really intently for this keep going as we get closer thank you for Manning this the whole way um four ense again now you're just stuck behind the overpass nobody's seeing anything 3/10 at this point again we go by Brockton here people need to be recognizing the sign and realizing hey I need to get gas or hey I need to go to the bathroom and they need to be changing lanes at this point at that speed 2/10 okay they've got a decent read on it but again you can see where the exit sign is there it's getting close so people need to have been making their maneuver at this point notice also as we go to the one 10th sign or slide here if you parked a semi up on top of the overpass or a semi was crossing the overpass there and you see how tall the signs are above the overpass the traffic signals and that sort of thing you'll notice that those digits for what the unlet and the diesel prices would be are actually pretty much the same height or barely more than those street lights and those other signals so this is not looming over things a great deal this is from the the high way it's going to appear as though it's about 15 ft in the air because the site's also down in a bowl below Dayton Parkway so at this point one/ tenth of a mile I really hope somebody's in the right lane because if not at the exit now it's too late and not just because there's that semi there so U again I know 80 feet sounds like a lot but this is why we do these surveys to figure out how how does this actually scale out in context and the other thing you'll not notices this didn't Loom over the trees this didn't Loom over all the other signs and everything it actually gets obscured fairly regularly so any lower than that though as you can see right here if you parked a semi on top of Dayton Parkway there I suspect it would probably obscure those price digits at the bottom of the sign at that point so this is as I said in quick trips request letter this is basically the minimum that we thought we could do that would be visible a but it's not going to be way taller than it needs to be I've asked for signs that were 100 105 13 feet tall in other communities but those were different contexts and that's not something that would work here so we didn't ask for that if we can jump back to the power point for a moment thank you so one challenge we had the day of the of the survey was it got Breezy and with a blimp obviously there comes the point at which you can't you have to take it down we almost I think the guy almost broke his blimp that day because it almost nose dove into the ground so um as I say in this case he scaled it off of another height that he'd done it but again I've seen enough of his surveys to know that they're fairly accurate so that's what those show uh I'm sorry I don't have a video to literally drive you along but he takes this when he's driving and shooting video he's taking Stills as well off his his Apple watch so that's how the still photos are derived as he's driving along the interstate there was that the the blimp the red balloon that was out there for a number of days or no it wasn't it was only there for probably two two and a half hours oh mov around yeah I was I I I did see it so okay yeah so no it was just literally part of one morning and then it got too windy and then that was it so it was probably like I say only two two and a half hours total okay I thought it was 2 days for some reason no no I wish we probably would have gotten more videos for you I'm sorry so we have the variances as found in city code now I know we were talking about state code a moment ago this is from city code so general purpose intentive city code consistent with comp plan in this case the use has already been approved so we know that there's not really a conflict there uh you look at the adjacent zoning the other properties nearby you've got B4 you've got BP so again this is not going to be something that's much higher in intensity or something from a zoning a land use perspective part two there reasonable manner not permitted by the zoning code in this case the use is fine it's just the height and the sign area so it's not necessarily unreasonable but yeah is it Beyond code sure but I would say compared to a lot of communities especially those with an interstate going through part of them code here is rather restrictive 25 and 64 s ft is not allow to sign there yet so non-economic circumstances unique to the parcel not created obviously the obstructions nearby we didn't plant those trees we didn't put those Billboards there that sort of thing so we're not contravening b um not altering the essential character of the locality again you look at some of the uses nearby you've got heavy equipment you've got warehousing that sort of thing um so you're not really changing anything that way practical difficulties then I know that's always such a nebulous term uh in terms of these sorts of things but again part of the problem is something cl to what staff originally talked about this summer in the staff report literally cannot be seen at all from One Direction until you're literally past the ex already so that's really not practicable from a a safety standpoint for anybody driving through who's not familiar with the area they're not going to know to look and it's going to be too late by the time they finally see it so part of it is trying to make sure people have enough advanced notice and that's what we demonstrated with those pictures a moment ago that people would 510 in that sort of thing from both directions be able to see this it's just tall enough barely see it over that billboard if you're headed westbound um eastbound you can see it just enough overd Parkway so that people would be able to make the decision with enough advanced notice so they're not trying to cut off somebody at the last moment because people are often not aware of their surroundings when they're driving so again that's that's the main reason why this is being requested at that height uh I would say in terms of the sign area part of it uh um if you would put up that slide in your presentation just to show it again I understand 200 and some square feet sounds like a lot at first but if you look at it and you think about it at the height at 80 ft in the air those price digits for example with the product names above them are 5'4 in tall so imagine 75t for standing on that pole there from that distance especially from a half mile away it's not very big it's more just recognizing hey I see red and I see green that's probably a gas station the Quick Trip sign itself 20 ft wide 6 feet tall again in the grand scheme on an interstate it's not that large um a lovees station for example those truck stops you see those a lot again this is 225 ft a lot of love stores have signs between I would say 1,00 1300 Square ft so this is nowhere near the size of something like that um so I think there is a distinction to be made there and again this is something quick trip does have signs that are a th000 square feet there aren't many of them right now but they're in places where the circumstances are a lot different so there is care taken to try to find okay what is the minimum we can do here that would work for everybody people can see it but it's not going to overpower the surroundings and that's how we've arrived at this this really isn't the standard design we would do for a sign like this anymore but it was the design that seemed most appropriate for the area so that pretty much covers what I wanted to say certainly if you need to call up the pictures again or anything else I'm happy to answer additional questions any additional questions for the applicant is there any data that says how much these types of signs drive your business you know I'm thinking of like you know obviously you're serving truck drivers so it's a lot of through traffic um anybody that's in the area knows it's there and doesn't need the big sign right so do you know any idea of like how much of your business is driven by that and not people on there watching Google Maps and saying oh there's Quick Trip let's go and you've touched on widespread difficult to measure there's so many there's marketing there are Flyers there are radio ads there are tv ads there's a sign all these different things as you say Google Maps Apple Maps whatever it may be um it's very hard to measure what piece of the pie each one of them occupies because they're all happening at the same time was it that we had a good sign that people could see was it that we had the bake sale going on right now and somebody really wanted to donate it's it's really hard so unfortunately I don't have I'm not just telling you I don't have I honestly have never seen and my boss and I have even talked about that um that it's very hard to come up with discret percentages of the business based on this or this or this and that's what's hard about it yeah we hope they all work well that's the answer from uh someone who drives quite a bit back and forth um my family lives on the other side of Wisconsin so I have a 5our drive um I don't usually depend on those signs um I depend on the blue signs on the side of the highway that tells me when it's coming up because I have been tricked by these signs where it's right there and I get off and I'm like where the heck is this gas station like I see your giant sign at the exit but like I literally can't and so like well I'm not going to go searching for it so I've learned to not look for these signs cuz I have been fooled by them I look at the sign on the side it tells me if it is there and it usually has the arrow and tells me which way and whatever so just for my own personal use that's what I rely on I I Rely those blue signs not the big giant signs um that being said like when I look at that that picture that isn't that big um but when I look at it compared to the other signs around like when we look at the the other image I don't know if it was in here where it was compared that one like that does feel really much larger um so I'm kind of torn between that because you are you are in a bull right like you don't you aren't like at the same level um and so I do think there are some there are some two very conflicting things there for me is that if I just saw the pictures and said does this sign seem reasonable I'd say yeah it does and then you're like but this and I think that's goes to the code and like we have all these other businesses across the street that are going to come and they're like but you let quick trip and you're like yeah but you don't have the same like they were literally in a bull and you're not in a bull like so um I think if if I'm not a hard no but I'm also not really a yes um I think I would really rely on what what the other people on the Planning Commission have to say on this one because I think I could see logical arguments on both sides but just from a practical standpoint of when I am driving in an unfamiliar area by myself so I don't have someone to use Google Maps for me and I'm driving so I'm not using my phone I Rely heavily on the blue signs on the side of the road and that's how I make my decisions but I am but one person so and you make a good point because context is so important if you don't have that sense of scale the blue signs where they fail us when we rely on them is when you get off the highway all you know is that somewhere off this exit is a quick trip or is a case's or a Speedway or whatever it may be but until you get farther along and not everywhere has these then once you're off the ramp and you're committed then it tells you how far it is 4/10 of a mile 1/10th of a mile that's actually where I've found these sorts of signs are helpful is because if you don't have the sign that someone can see when he or she reaches the top of the offramp then as you said a moment ago you're lost because there's this rumor that there's this store if I turn right but where is it and when I get to this intersection here do I turn left do I turn right do I go straight where is it and if there's not a sign like this for you to identify that's where the blue signs even fail us and that's what's difficult so I mean I totally understand uh what you're saying but that's part of the reason why you need this identifiable sign is to guide people home once they see that blue sign and one other thing I would say as well the question came up about okay wouldn't everybody do something like this what if we had other businesses other developments whatever it may be signs like this are not cheap I would estimate in fact I know because two fairly local signed companies bid to do this job we're talking 123 to $130,000 to build that sign so the barrier to entry to trade on something like this to erect a sign like that is probably not something everybody could do and finally one other piece I would add is again are we talking about local traffic or are we talking about traffic passing through traffic passing through doesn't know the area traffic passing through may or may not be looking at its map on its phone right or its GPS um but that's where for people who are UNF familiar with the area having something like this it's identifiable okay I get right off the interstate here and right here's the site and you guide them right in from there it's it's fairly simp simple that way um those are important factors as well because somebody driving through from Fargo is not looking okay where's Hobby Lobby that's not their concern they they have Hobby Lobby there they have other things there but food and fuel and that sort of thing with more immediate needs when you're driving a long distance that's where it needs to be readily identif identifiable and that's why this sort of request I believe is different from another type of business because you are catering to those people driving through the area you make compelling arguments I think you actually kind of shot yourself in a float a little bit though because this sign isn't going to drive you home once you're on the on RAM because you're going to see it it's in a bowl you're on top of it it's going to be this beautifully well-lit Beacon of quick trip to pull you into right um so that's what the other sign on Dayton Parkway does that gets you home if this one doesn't well it does but it's going to beff see this so that they know get off in yeah yeah I mean go ahead I was going to say do we know the height from Dayton Parkway yeah the of the deep is the B it looks like a sorry so I did just I was just looking up that just to get some perspective after the the late pole was pointed off so the light pole is 40 ft high and it is at an elev about 950 which puts that actual light fixture up at about a 990 the sign is at about a 930 and it's 80 ft High to put it at about 1010 so the sign would be about 20 ft higher than that light that and it's final elevation the other the other question I have and I know it's not practical for quick trip to do this but is there anything preventing quick trip to bring in 30 feet of fill and then put the sign on top of that so the sign location is an so they can't I understand that point of it but if they were to put it on the center of their site and they were to raise their sight up 50 ft can they put a 25t sign on top of that y legally so from that stpoint I mean I I just want to point out that that like we're not how I think what Peter's trying to get points out is don't get lost in the details don't get lost in the details of ft you guys could theoretically raise your site if you want right to a certain point and still get that sign height with a 25 ft sign and still be at that top elevation that's what I'm getting at it's not for you it's for for us yeah yeah and the grading and the drainage and a lot of don't worry about that don't worry about that this is this is for these guys not for you I don't have any more questions for the applicant I all if you do you guys have any more questions I I guess the one thing we talked about earlier I think Paul you pointed it out was because they're bringing this sign and now a second sign on Dayton Parkway is there anything on the second I mean I I'll be honest I don't have let's I don't have an issue with the main sign this sign um and what it is compared to I think they showed enough hardship with the Billboards the overpasses the other things in the area to me it compelling enough to okay and then my comment of well they theoretically could raise the site 20 feet and go 60 ft sign but that's not practical do you have a distance that is the ideal distance where you identify the sign in order for people to move over is it a mile is it a half mile like it's hard to say because these digits in this sign are already smaller than what industry standards would recommend for recognition from a certain distance so it's more I I'm embarrassed to say it but I'm trying to get something approved and what I think I can get approved is something that's basically going to be red and green and people will recognize especially if they drive a lot hey that's okay there's a convenience store they have fuel I I'll go there they they recognize at least that's what that means and once they get closer then they'll finally be able to read the sign yeah but yeah the digits and the the sign face should be larger the one question I had about the second sign on holidale and Dayton Parkway and I get it it's code compliant but you're also asking for Avance here but y I'm going to defer to another member on the comping commission that really loves signs um I noticed that height is 16 ft and maybe that's the right height to so you can don't see cars but I was wondering if that one could be lower so it's not as prominent on Dayton Parkway like uh what What's the word I'm looking for um more like a on a monument um and what height are you thinking of the monument um I'd be well that'd be the question for you is What's the total height you need I haven't I'm not that sign up it looks like it was 12 feet Mr chair for clarification I think the standard height for a monument sign in for Dayton's code is 8 feet tall would you be able to see it from the other side of the interchange over the bridge at that point point no you don't think so I don't think you need to because of the Quick Trip banners on the side of your building and everything I mean there's but that was one my comment I guess is then we can discuss this further um but my question to you is would you be acceptable it looks like your current sign is 9 ft by 7 ft there like if that was raised up 4 feet off the ground and so it was 13 ft by 7 feet and I guess I'm going to defer a little bit to the architect too and the commission about how does that look how does that function is there issues with that maybe it's better to have it up so you're not blocking visibility too I don't know yeah I mean part of the height too is for visibility for the turn right so sign's not blocking the intersection do we have on if you show in the site plan where is that one exactly for Hollydale and Dayton Parkway number 13 right there the 13 It's right it's right off the the road so you're really not blocking anything one way or the other because it's further from the intersection anyway that's that'd be one the roads divide it but there's no trees in the middle of it so what you see from one side you'll see from the other side um yeah I mean I'm I'm as I've stated in previous meetings I am anti- sign typically um I I do understand the the freeway sign especially coming from the north traveling Southbound and and having visibility because if it wasn't that tall you wouldn't see it at all um so I get that but yeah anything like once we get on a date Parkway though like I agree with Darren like if there's anything we can do to study that one to see if it can be lower or just be a monument sign on the ground or something like that and still have success what uh I'm not opposed to a monument um I think it's still just a matter of as you said can people on both sides I would say of the overpass for example at least be able to see it again you would say well I hope they can see this other sign it's taller they ought to be able to recognize that it's in an angle that you would hope they could read it um but yeah I mean this sign we're talking about now sign 13 is that sort of your okay you found us here's what we have we more fuel products listed we have the message center that sort of thing um but this sign I almost view looking at the site as being more the locally oriented sign correct because it's more the height and size we would have for a store in the middle of town that kind of thing yeah I I the the freeway sign I think is actually a really good location for that southbound traffic when you get to the top of the ramp because it's it's farther away from the corner of the street right it's down the that um exit ramp from the Northbound traffic so when you come up the bridge it's still going to be in front of you off to your left uh not if it was up in the corner of Dayton Parkway and the entry of that that exit ramp then it you wouldn't see it you would't be able to read it properly right so I think you still have the benefit of that to get you to turn that way you won't see the building yet because you're down in a hole probably right you're too far back um but I also don't know if you'd see this 25 foot sign from that exit Point either but it's it's hard to tell without see the the canopy though yeah you're going to see the canopies and the roof line signs yeah maybe I mean you'll see the big sign first right that's going to be it's going to be over here and then I think you're still low there but I think you see that sign as you cross I'm okay with the sign they proposed at the long Dayton Parkway I guess B my question to you is if it's more aesthetically pleasing to have a monument sign there I would suggest that and I'm okay with the tall sign right I think there's enough going on with the hole in the ground and I want to see the business being successful that I don't and I'm not too worried about the Precedence because we don't have that many freeway sites and I think that's the unique thing about this site is it's on the freeway in a full yeah and our other freeway SES are all wet land that are undeveloped I think you'll see a monument sign or this sign just fine as you after you've crossed the bridge and you'll see the building and everything at that point so then it's just a matter of does it need to be the height in order to read I would the Ming I would say it have to be the southbound Dayton Parkway would have to be able to read it more so than more so than Northbound on the other side of the interstate and with that I mean I'd rather see a monument sign in personally but either way is fine yeah I don't I it could be done it could be done yeah I don't I'm not married to one over the other um we have several stores of Monument Monument signs um if you're more comfortable with that I think we just dialing in what height you'd like it at I have 25 foot tall Monument size I don't want that I didn't think you did but I thought I'd offer yeah you know if you have the 9 by7 I think if you could present something to council I have an option of maybe it's 13 by7 so like I was saying I'm not I'm picking 4 feet maybe it can be 3T maybe it's 5T but if you could show them an example I think that would help I would yeah I was going to say actually if you if you if you were to do a monument sign it'd be to me no higher than 16 ft or this sign would be my two options and I'm not married to either one I just yeah I think Monument signs look nicer than the pedestals y fine yeah they look classier and this is you know yeah I think if you could present two examples to console um that would be great I don't think of gas stations as classy no offense like I like Quicks they're good they're good but I don't necessarily think gas St I'm talking signs here not remember we're talking sign I understand that sign for a gas station I'm not like ooh this is a classic gas station they got a monument sign convenient store convenient story sorry this is a travel center convenient store expl I mean they're classy enough I won't mind one at balam you mentioned I was waiting for that right so there's four variances here one by one I think they're all okay and I think they meet the criteria so I'm going to make a motion to approve the variance for quick trip for variances 1 two three and four which is the two signs the height of 8 feed away from the main entrance and in the dnu just a point of clarification were there any um conditions related to that second sign that you wanted to include on that um otherwise the way that it would be now approving the variance as is uh they would be allowed to come back and um apply for a sign like this with through a sign permit I just wanted to make that clear is that I don't know how to make it a condition because I'm fine with either one sure but I'm suggesting strongly to the applicant to show two options to the council because I think there's an agreement up here that we think monuments would look more attra sure and that's why I wanted to POS the questions yeah Are there specific Heights at which you'd like to see the examples I agree with Peter that that the monument sign shouldn't be any greater than 16 ft all right how about 16 and 12 12 ft wide no no 16 ft tall and 12 feet tall those would be the two examples perfect okay perfect we'll do that yeah thank you I'll second we have a motion and a second all those in favor I I all those opposed motion passes 4 Z question for clarity when we're talking about the monument sign like this is a solid sign not a pedestal sign brick base whole width y yep yes agreed classy classy yes classy signs we start inste of Monument signs CL signs all right thank you thank you very much appreciate it see you guys next time sounds good you got that in there nice all right item 8D we are at uh right on time 952 I just got keep TR how we doing I did have a c recommendation for approval of comprehensive plan Amendment and zoning map Amendment and PUD preliminary plat of Parkway neighborhood there's a lot going on with this project so I'm going to apologize if I jump around a little bit um so this is the parkway neighborhood um we've think this has been in front of the Planning Commission at least twice I I want to say it was last summer and then again in January so in January the Planning Commission tabled this um because a ea was needed and that just kind of stopped the review process so before I forget to mention um when the plan commission takes an action you have to untable it and then reop in the public hearing um so again the the applications for this project is for a comprehensive plan amendment to amend the sewer staging plan uh zoning map amendment to change the zoning from A1 to GMU 5 and I'll go over this in a little bit more detail um a planed unit development a prelimary plant and a site plan review uh just geographically uh the project we're just talking about is the Quick Trip site that's on the called the east or the north side of '94 and now we're on the west or the South side of 94 um so it is trying to remember how many acres it was 51 51 Acres um it I would say it's characterized quite a bit by Wetland and flood plane or complic complicated quite a bit uh this is the site plan so we have the intention is this would be developed veloped in I believe four phases uh first phase is to construct the road and to build 180 unit apartment building on this this will be lot one and then we have a second phase will be an additional apartment building oh pH two uh lower density but still apartment buildings and phase three will be a larger density apartment building then phase four would be commercial and I don't know if phase three and phase four would be which one will be first but so all together it's 6 650 units total so with the preliminary plat and the site plan review and all this you're you're looking at the larger scale of it but then with the um I'm going say with the prelimary plid and the site planine it's focused on just the the first 180 unit apartment building okay so first application for the comprehensive plan Amendment this is specific to change the sewer staging area uh from 2020 to current so the staging area goes anywhere from the current as in it's served Now by sewer to uh post 2050 it goes in 10-year increments so the intention here is in know before a property is served or an area is served by sewer um it would be changed to current when this was tabled by the Planning Commission in January last year the uh that proposal was for the entire triangle and I know last month we talked about the sheney property or Dayton Creek which is um adjacent of this property and the question came up why don't we look at the whole thing um we did look at the whole thing a year ago I just couldn't remember last January so um yes second application is to amend the zoning map from A1 agricultural to GMU 5 so GMU stands for General mixed use District uh GM mu5 is specific to the triangle area on the west side of 94 conservation plan unit development within the 20 240 comprehensive plan there are areas that are um designated as a Greenway overlay so these are generally areas where there's some type of natural Corridor um in this case it is Rush Creek um that flows through here and then there's an expans of uh wetland flood plane area um the comp the comprehensive plan and the zoning code requires that any area that's guided for Greenway overlay would is required to be developed as a conservation plan un development or PUD for short with the conservation PUD there the intention is is that there's some kind of a public benefit to having a PUD um that we preserving so natural areas or view sheds or what whatever the plan commission city council want to Define that as um and in exchange the developer allowed to do something that's uh you know not allowed by Cod so in this case uh the or I'm going to call deviations to the city coat uh the developer is asking for deviations in reduced parking uh the number of parking as well as parking size um and then as well as landscaping and I'll get into that in a little bit um so in here in this slide um I mentioning that public benefits would be the expansion of wetlands and flood plane areas and so that I'm going to say that is everything this whole area that is on the south or west side of the street um lot one which is the 180 unit apartment building has higher design standards than what the code would require um Outlaw a which is the commercial area is intended to include a trail head for Three Rivers Park district U excuse me so Three Rivers does intend on having a a Regional Trail that follows uh this roadway up to Dayton Parkway and then it goes um East and there's a map that's included in the staff report that shows kind of the big picture of of uh Dayton as far as Regional Trails go um and then out Lot B another P public benefit is to preserve this wood land area in a conservation easement and that would happen at the time Outlaw B is platted okay uh preliminary plat again what we're looking at is platting the RightWay for the street as well as lot one and then everything else is out Lots um again on the west side of the road this is intended just to just be open space undeveloped then outline a b and c would be developed in the future site plan review uh this is specific to the apartment buildings of the layout of the property the design of the building uh landcaping all of that U then we get into the actual building itself and I know that I have a hard time seeing this I don't know about you um this is the breakdown to the number of bedrooms uh kind of where it is and and I'll have Michael and Ben kind of get into uh the division of you know how many bedrooms per you know percentage of one bedrooms versus two bedrooms and so so on uh design of the building critical issues so uh we have wet line impacts the billboard conservation PUD tree preservation parking and Landscaping uh excuse me specific to the white line impacts um this still needs approval from the tap or the technical evaluation panel uh there there's been one review of it there will be a second review next week um so depending on the out the outcome of that meaning the white land impacts or the whel land mitigation may change the project not as it relates to lot one for phase one but it would it will for the additional uh development on the North side as far as the Billboards go um within the city code uh Billboards are intended to be the Principal use of for property and within the code if in order for land with a billboard on it to be developed uh the intent is for the billboard to go away or it for it to be platted as a separate lot so um probably the most recent example we have is with the Opus project that was several months ago so Opus is located on County Road 81 in Dayton Parkway um it was a vacant property with an existing billboard and the billboard was pled off as its own separate lot um in this case it it's intended to just be on the same property as I don't know whether it's an easement or I'm going to say a private easement but it's it's on the same property as the apartment building so a question for the plane commission is if you're comfortable with the billboard staying as far as an allow deviation from city code or if you want to require the billboard to be removed uh tree preservation so there's three or four um wooded areas is most of these are going to be removed with the project the exception is the wood area this this is a large Wetland area uh the exception is the Woodland on the north side of the Wetland between the Wetland and the um onramp onto 94 of staff's recommendation is if these Woods are going to be are going to be preserved is that this be included in conservation easement that would protect it from uh future development and part of the the public benefit of calling this a conservation PUD uh let's see parking so this was I discussed quite a bit at the January meeting um the parking requirement for apartments is one garage stall per unit and then one surface stall per unit plus a half a stall or half a parking space for every five units so for the 100 180 unit apartment building there's 180 garage stalls that are are required which this project meets and then 198 surface stalls which this project is proposing 165 um the plan commission when this was discussed in January was fine with that um developers also asking for redu a reduced parking size from whereas the code requires 10x 20 they're proposing 9 by8 u j January the plan commission was also okay with that um I think at that time in January there were going to be some stalls that were full size 10x 20 um that that's been removed so what's being proposed is all 9 by8 uh Landscaping so in city code way of requirements for um I'll call it shade trees ornamental trees Evergreens and shrubs so on the slide here it mentions what is required um the plan is deficient by two ornamental trees which I'm sure the developer can find a place to put two more uh more so is there's a shortage on shrubs and the project does the code does not require perennial planting or flowers to be planted there are I don't know I'm I'm just going to say thousands of flowers that are plan to be planted just not necessarily shrub so the question for the Planning Commission is are you supportive of the deviation and the number of shrubs that is that is it we have applicant here to answer any questions and again when you open up the public hearing if you could untable it and then open the public I guess with that we will untable and reopen do we have to have a motion on table or just or just reopen it I don't know I don't recall I'll make a motion if there you go I'll make a motion to untable the action I'll second all right all those in favor hi hi all those Post 40 we are uning this and reopening the public hearing at 10:05 anyone here for comment on this besides the applicant he's ready Michael's always ready all right uh I guess with that we will close the public hearing at 10:05 uh you like to come forward yes everybody nice to see Hello um one of the comments that John making about the uh the parking think when we were here in January there was some dialogue about this chamber size um and maybe Ben can verify this but we're perfectly good with and I think he was going to uh create some of the 10 x2s for like larger pickup trucks and stuff keep those on the outside I somehow think like we had 18 or 19 of those um we also from the last meeting have updated and corrected if you will our plan coming into the buildings so we come in between the two you guys had made some comments about uh that area so I think you know all of the things that came from our January dialogue and the feedback that you guys gave us I believe that we responded favorably and and and have updated uh our drawings to that so to the extent that drawing doesn't have any 10 x 20s we'll gladly put some back in because I think it's appropriate for some portion of our Rental Community we'll have those you know larger vehicles but um recollection says that our our request on the 9 by8 for the rest of them I think if you looked at 100 projects around the city that's sort of the new norm and and I think your parking sizes are you know dated bigger than average yeah bigger than that we drive trucks in Dayton yeah hey yes I know some people drive trucks in Dayton not all of us parking lot out there all backed in tuck my tiny car in between them y so I think you know that's parking was was one of the issues um more broadly speaking you know the good news is the concept plan that we you know came in and shared with you back in originally in June and then carried forward into January you know continues to evolve a little bit but largely um you know the good news is when we were here in January we didn't have there was a number of things in process including this whole eaw that was uh a 9mon venture but I think more importantly with regard to um you know our wetlands and things um we've got a good package that's all been submitted and uh we met with them today kind of you know informally so broadly speaking one year later were about where we where we expected uh and that is to break ground in the spring on the first Department project um the area that you see number seven and8 Ben and I are meeting regularly Wednesdays for a couple of hours every week and we expect to be back in with a second uh plaid application for you guys December 31st which will start then uh what we call phase two or part two which is the numbers seven and eight um and we're just finishing up some really exciting you know drawings um the product is as has always been the case you know we're trying to create the parkway neighborhood um that that has some differential in variety it's so the first project that we do is the four-story has elevators little bit smaller unit sizes and um and the second project to the South is uh that's that's predominantly three-story and twostory no elevators walk up and you have uh if you will tuck under garages so little bit different product mix different uh client base Etc um the size of seven and8 are going to be uh around 100 16575 units the main one on number six is 180 and then as uh John just mentioned area number four those are two buildings where again likely those will go back to a a four-story product that has uh elevators and gives us uh about a 25 unit per acre density so all collectively the neighborhood ends up with about 600 homes uh residential and then as you can see the number two um if I could just suggest to you it's it was there as a frankly this eaw process says tell us the maximum everything that you could possibly do on this site so that we can stress that out at an an environmental basis without necessarily thinking is that that site hasn't been underwritten as even financially feasible it's also part of a bowl and so so to speak about the economic viability of it or that that's going to happen anytime soon it's not but it is there we've measured it out there's about 10,000 square ft that could happen as a service retail could be uh a variety of you know again to to to create some mixed uses it is an ideal spot for that um but the the residential product is uh is you know very well on its way um we've got great interest in in those first two projects so phase one and two um again we'll have the the plat going in on the second phase uh here at the end of the year and so our hope and Our intention right now we're working with uh tap and uh Army Corp of Engineers that should give us a wetland permit approval process uh getting done in the March early April um and so with that we would be ready to immediately begin uh Mass grading and uh all the earth work setting the stage for vertical construction of both the force story apartments and the the other uh lower density stuff in the phase 2 project in the 2025 building year um he mentioned the trail no change there as you guys remember when I was kind of inventing this all reached out to Three Rivers they're good they're going to they have a trail to the South that's in Maple Grove coming across and in through those neighborhoods south of the the church there or the temple whatever they call you um and so they're on board it's a really I think a wonderful uh addition not only to the neighborhood but really to the community as a whole it's connecting us into Maple Grove that comes all the way over to the Elm Creek preserve and then it comes North as John mentioned we'll have a trail head um that that goes west and eventually will become part of the prassan uh connection and then it goes north to what they call I think the Diamond Lake cdor so it really is a a pivotal spot to kind of make the connection between uh Elm Creek preserve and long range the the cassin out to the west and whatever goes on up north I think it comes up and into uh you know what you guys refer to as North Dayton where we are now so I think we've you know done nice in incorporating that John mentioned you know the way it turns out I you know would have loved to have seen another 10 acres of uh to the west but um we just got a lot of bloody water going around this Rush Creek thing is is there and so all of that area to the West um you know the good news is it's it's an area that's not regularly flooded but it's covered with these 100-year flood planes and all these other restrictions so um so it's a very low probability that we're going to see uh quote habitable or built spaces to the west and certainly not on our radar right now it's uh you know left for uh retention and so forth but I think we've done a splendid job in in not only utilizing the space that we do have um but I would like to say we spent a tremendous amount of time really analyzing the market what's driving you know where what's the housing needs for the area and uh and I think we've got product that is exceptionally well suited uh for this location the Dayton municipality and and being able to uh you know create a really sustainable neighborhood um and uh and that's that's about it any questions I don't have a question but I do have a comment on the trees versus shrub thing um you're actually over in trees by 267 and you're only under in shrubs by 64% so I feel like from a trade-off standpoint the amount of trees more than makes up for the loss in the loss in shrubs so um I have no I have no issue with that considering how many trees are being are on site um if there is anything I believe one thing was mentioned that there's the little chunks of trees and one of them was a a better quality tree parage trees yes um and that we were going to lose more of those like if there's any way I know it adds to the cost but there's any way we can save those look I went through this whole thing they had a the guy even went out there and learned how to do it so we have this thing with the trees I could tell like Jason's uh what's it Anthony was so cool so you look at this so you look at the drawing and we can see 2 in four six and there's some of these that are we're not taken down any any like trophy trees I went through the the big area where we're doing trees is only in the bottom right in phase two and I walked it with uh with with Anthony and the from stantech yeah and uh and the other the girl that was doing all the uh Wetland stuff and there's no trophy trees on the south it's uh the ones up around the pond and all that stuff's getting preserved we're going to do a lot of cleaning up and lights and it's going to look really really uh very very sharp yeah no so I'm I'm happy with that and I don't have I think said the trees more than make up for the shrubs in my mind just to add on to that before I forget so most of the the larger trees that are being removed are cottonwoods there's an exception where my husband will be so on board with that there's we had the with the cabin messing around I got a quick question for you there's before I forget there there's three large Oaks they're right in the middle of the road wow that are 3 feet or so in diameter so they're large um yeah there whether it's in the road or the slope of the road there's without moving the road you should work with a woodworker to at least get you could you at least save them I in go let me tell you I don't want to yeah I got a quick question only because it's 10:15 at night so we're going to try to keep this moving along yes EV charging station staff had a recommendation about not putting them in the garage uh I understand where they're coming from I wanted to maybe hear your perspective if you were planning to put them in the garage and what you're hearing from your research on whether that's appropriate or not well I think you know we clearly see from a demand basis there's there's an audience for people that are buying these and leasing these and that's going to continue and I think even more so this apartment building when you look at that demographic they're going to be a little bit younger you know younger people my son driving you know this is just so um so we want to you know first and foremost just you you know we're paying attention to what's the customer need what do they want and trying to more than satisfy that requirement so I would say you know defer a little bit to Ben but you know I I if if your question is you know do we put them Just inside versus out in my op I'm more focused on the inside from staff's comment I'm assuming if you put them outset it's not an issue right yeah no I mean I I'm good with kind of either either or both I have no objection to using them I obviously you we want to put in a proper amount of them based on the number of units the number cars um but you know we're doing a ton of stuff all with to Electric you know I guess my fear putting a comment like that as a condition from to staff perspective is things are going to keep evolving and changing that it it might they might become safer or what they put in is maybe it's not the charging station issue it's the cars issue M so there's going to be that constant balance and so if anything maybe you know Cod will get updated or you have some requirement about the fire suppression system around where these charging stations are uh apartment just burned partially burned down because of an electric bike electric bikes are going to be bigger issues because there's so many knockoff because not everyone wants to pay three grand for electric bike that they're going to be a bigger issue Than Cars probably sure so in my mind yeah it's the fire suppression so and the issue is you I'm a little sensitive about it so um the the way the electric cars are now I mean once they catch on fire like there's no way to put it out you got to let the the car burn out um if it's in a garage where you know you have 180 other cars or 179 other cars that's a catastrophic fire y um so the intent is you know I'm going to say are we being unique where I'm going with this we're not being unique we might be unque this is unique couldn't answer that I think we I mean I assume it's a pre-cast plank lid on top of the parking with fire sprinkler system inside the garage correct yes correct Bend do with uh C Wilson Architects um yeah it will be in actually its own separate building uh 3-hour rated construction separating everything and it is pretty common now that we're putting at least a handful of electric vehicle charging stations in and a lot are actually equipped for more in the future just they don't buy the actual equipment themselves so that is pretty typical and I did want to clarify on the parking before we did sneak it into John real late but we did put in I think 20 Total Truck Parking stalls to hit that requirement little uh miscommunication on my part with the civil engineer late but we did get it in there and it's still we are still able to get the parking um situated so okay so 3-hour envelope is what I'm hearing y on the construction part and then y I got no more questions for the applicant I I guess the only one I had was more for staff related or we had a area of trees that we were not removing moving in the overall site kind of around that number let me yes the north there's a better map I just got yeah so so my my question with this relates more to our density counts and are we able unit count counts or Trea counts unit counts are we able to pull this out so then um oh the yeah if you put it in a conservation does that remove it from the equation it does perfect that's what I need to know move on is that tree area though in part of that future phase though I feel like that future phase comes across the top of that Wetland or is am I not aligning my maps properly in my head so this is where a big dependence happens depends on what happens next week with the T panel on we'll see that one in the future okay yeah yeah yeah is that the fair answer yes yeah it's not it's not part of this that was one of those things to prove out the most density we could for the EA we kind of maximize the footprint of that building but you are correct that it does kind of show it going into that space But it's a little bit of a if we were building our buildings it's in our in that drawing right there you can see it's coming down in there a bit just put the building in Stills so when you're talking about those trees up in there some of the ones around the pond are these bigger ones the rest of that stuff is all brush and stick and Goofy um so yeah I'm going to say there's there might be a discrepancy between the tree preservation plan and the site plan that and just to be clear John this conservation easement idea isn't part of this plat to begin with um it it's part of the Pud but it's intended not to be um a it's intended to be approved as part of the phase three or supp there's there's wiggle room to change it is kind of what I'm getting at okay Splendid the the intent is that we're preserving trees through the conservation e to provide Integrity with the conservation PUD um but wiggle room that it could change when we get into more detailed with phase three okay there was a slide about a billboard yep but I don't see the billboard on every site plan represented so can we talk a little bit more about the billboard purpose of it yeah let me share one comment then tied to that for openers so billboard is a pre-existing and it does not have its own legal description so I come knocking on the door to seller and I'm like this is what we want to do so they said kind of right out of the gate look there's a a billboard and it has nothing to do with you in other words you're not going to have any part of it but we're going to own the lease so the purchase agreement that's in place right now I'm buying all the land which includes if you will the six feet uh where this thing comes down bolting into the ground but the lease the and anything to do with all of that is is with the existing owner of the property so um so is that going to be carved out the in easement if you're not plotting it then how is the owner going to retain the lease if you don't do something I think it's well because in the contract it's really just written that it's from with like CBS outdoor or something like that I've read a lot of these leases yeah so it sort of says that you know seller will retain rights to sub the lease and we've got the lease identified and blah blah blah um and so it's basically all on them they're not going to um we're not we are going to own all that property underneath it um so I guess you're going to sub because so if you're the owner of IT Tech oh there's a legal issue here that is with where I'm going with this is does it need to be platted or does there need to be an easement because you something need this just came up with with John that I'm just aware of I've been trying to like when I came in I'm like look you guys can figure it all out if it's there I bet and I have designed around it okay is it ideal of course not would you know I mean a billboard sitting out in front not perfect but you know I didn't want I wanted the property so what you're describing is the Billboard should be ploted separately if they're going to retain ownership yeah or they so the the intent of the code is that it's on its own property now as a PUD there's flexibility like you can do whatever you want so I mean it could be an easement I don't think the easement is going to work very good legally with a lease agreement you're going to find out and come right back to us that you need to have it platted if that's what you're intending to do with this Pur will say that the one he has it there's another sign down uh at the bottom of our site and it is triangular it's comp platted has its own PUD so somehow that one got a p you know plat own plat P yeah P excuse me id there go uh so this one does not have anything it's just I got a CBS lease it's made out to the seller he's keeping all of it and blah blah blah and I'm buy I think he get some work to figure out there how to make him be able to keep it all and for the purposes of tonight I think we could keep our focus on the whether the billboard should stay or go and that's his problem to figure out yeah I mean I would have you tried to buy it you get rid of it so it's not in front of your beautiful apartment buildings um CU I mean honestly I mean really nicely designed apartment building I'd hate to see this in front of it's yeah we've done I mean all of it the whole way what's the remaining term on the lease uh I believe 28 with I think they've got to renew and and whatnot but um you know yeah it's a touchy subject for me I personally don't really think it's the end of the world to have a billboard there it doesn't really hurt anything other than it looks ugly it it does create a little extra tax space it does create a little extra better tax base to the city too so blocks the Quick Trip sign for the residents right I mean it's so I'm okay I person pleasure we so it sounds like everyone here would be okay if it went away but that's not an easy to it's not easy to think easy I'm okay with the stain too I think it'll be the project will be okay and still be successful with it there I mean I I agree it'd be prettier if it was gone build around it and take it down when you have the chance yeah I don't have any I mean I'm good um whatever you choose on that yeah I don't have any more questions with the applicant no I'm totally fine with the trees and shrubs too I think I would prefer more trees than shrubs yeah for sure yeah I'm okay with the trees coming down with the tree preservation I think that we've got enough challenges here with Wetlands flood planes that it's just we if you want to see development here and that's what we did it's going to happen well in my mind this is the best way to get development without too much development y because you've preserved so much of the like I really appreciate how much of of the open space and the green space and the trees and the white lands you're preserving to me that's It's the Best of Both Worlds yeah I I think our Landscaping code is a little honorous with how it got structured with in particular when you're dealing with large Parcels so I'm okay with the Landscaping I'm also whereare the applicants asking for some public assistance in the sense that there obviously is some visibility concerns I really hope the applicant can figure out other ways to solve those feasibility concerns and ask in the city um but if we keep adding cost to it by having a higher Landscaping requirement we're not helping there either so I would I'm completely fine with that uh last thing is parking I so I think it's going to be just fine with the parking that the applicants proposed I think our code's honorous they got 345 stalls for 180 units but I don't really focus on the units I counted up the bedrooms there's 267 bedrooms 345 stalls for 267 bedrooms is going to be more than adequate for Market standards and that includes guest parking and it's going to be more than adequate right younger people are getting less Vehicles anyway CU they can't afford them um staff's comment on the trail sidewalk I guess with the Meandering I would I guess I understand what you're saying I guess I'm against it because I just don't want to add more cost to the project if they're already asking for public assistance I think the project has enough trails with the Three River Park Trail coming through that it'll help I just don't want to add more cost to this project are you talking about a a trail above yeah so to thank you for mentioning that cuz I I totally skipped over it I had to find better drawing here not going to find one um so the intention here is to try to you know so that there's a Regional Trail that goes along the west side there's a sidewalk that goes along the east side I guess my intention in that comment is that you know when you go for a walk typically you're looking to walk in a loop rather than just a straight line from from one side of the street to the other one so the intention here is to have an internal sidewalk that connects um each of the project areas from say the South the middle the middle and in the commercial area or maybe not the commercial area um just that you're you're providing an in interest you're not just walking along the street you're walking through the woods and over the hill I follow what you're saying I think if I'm going for a walk though I'm walking down the Three River Trail not and then I'll double back I and I think based on what what I'm seeing in the rendering at least in the in this building there is uh a sidewalk around the one building there is yes so I think as as far as tonight goes it's it's got that John y uh yeah I'm fine I ask it CU I it's right I guess Darren your point on parking I'd rather be slightly overp parked here with snow storage and other things that may may come up yeah mean in terms of even going further 45 seems like it's more than it's more than enough that we don't need to go lower we don't need to go yeah well we don't need to go to our required either correct um just wanted to compliment you I tour in walk through a lot of Apartments I like the renderings hopefully it turns out as good as it looks yes thank you I like the unit mix too I think it'll be a good unit mix for this area any other questions comments um I'm going to leave this open to some more discussion but I'm going to make a motion to recommend approval of the zoning plan Amendment the comprehensive plan amendment to bring it in the current staging the planned unit development the site plan and the preliminary plan FL of the parkway neighborhood I have one more oh any SEC you second no yeah I'll second that I have one we have a motion in a second I do have one more question slash comment um that I forgot to bring up so this is one of the last areas in Dayton that's residential that's in the oio school district oio has build a new school near here and Elementary School I Envision this is going to have some families in it busing and bus turnaround and all that things just something to think about with the Rush Creek Boulevard of is there adequate room for a bus to turn around at that culdesac and right the bottom culdesac I mean that that's a full stand for yeah so that's that looking just looking at it without seeing that was just my comment question no it's a great question and zero part of me wants to build a road that can't make a bus do really well cuz we're going to have all you know there's defin kids bus school busing and um and so is it right the bus can yeah size for fire truck is what so I presume they make similar movement but we can look at it to just to make sure it's not a awkward movement if it's a daily Thing versus a fire truck it just you kind of got to cter that's that's more it's it's going to be a daily thing so you know it's a good comment we'll uh we'll take a look at that it wouldn't be difficult to add a little more radius if need all right we have a motion and Peter before you put this to vote I just want to add one comment is that most of the apartment buildings I go through that are class A buildings all have electric vehicle charging stations in the garages so we have a motion and a second any further discussion a question um so with the preliminary plant and the site plan there are conditions of approval so I just want to make sure I'm clear that if we're changing anything uh so the prelim plant condition one is to revise the plan to comply with the city Engineers letter that's just kind of a standard condition uh condition two and I I H mentioned this before is in regards to an emergency access um need a bigger map is this the road on the south John they got two options correct uh well I'm I don't have a great map uh there's really one option so um this is a long Dead End Road so there's there's an there's a story with it so there's an existing Farm access road that comes through here that connects Brockton to the culdesac however there's two issues with that one is that the road is below the flood plane elevation so if it floods you can't get there two is we're not confident that the um cul that crosses Rush Creek will support a fire engine so what we have with with um the Dayton Cree condition is uh an emergency access from the cuac that's over here to Brockton um whoever builds first whether it's this project or Dayton Creek will be required to build that emergency access to Brockton I don't know who will it'll or maybe they can get together and talk about it and come up with something reasonable too but I I'm okay with the condition that someone needs to whoever builds it needs to figure out how to make it happen whoever goes first needs to figure out how to make it happen yes uh condition three is that the final plant has to be recorded within a year submitted within a year that's that's just standard uh within the code uh condition four in regard is to record a conservation easement on Outlaw B of the wooded area um what we don't know is if that area over here is going to change with if the layout of the apartment buildings here will change the the lay or the uh I'll call it the dimension or the area of the conservation easement so I personally would strike that condition in my motion from a standpoint that I think that's better addressed with the next plat so we don't pinge and hole ourselves right now waart so strike strike that condition entirely um and then condition five is that the developer construct a trail head with the development of Outlaw a I I need more information on that okay so as this is the I'll call it the intersection of two Regional Trails um and I don't have a good drawing on on the PowerPoint or on the slides there is one in the staff report the intention here is to have a trail head public trail head um somewhere at close to this intersection and we've looked at you know and we're asking the developer to build that to build the yes I'd strike my opinion is strike that condition this project already has feasibility issues let's get one of these buildings underway and deal with that in the future okay well it also seems add to do it now when we're not talking about that we not talk about out all no the idea is toly memorialize it whenever we get to developing outla a I think there's a huge bet I mean I get it what we're doing but we're also collecting Park dedication fees so if a city really wants it that's that's how we need to spend our money or if Three Rivers really wants it that's how they need to spend their money when developments have feasibility issues we can't keep asking for stuff like that if we want to see something happen um with the site plan review before I forget uh so condition one is that the building is is going to be built consistent with the plans that were in the packet and then question this wasn't added as as a conition with the question of um whether the EV charging stations would be allowed inside the apartment building I'd strike that condition they can be let the let them decide maybe they have to pay higher Insurance because of it too it's very true here all right we have a motion and a second conditions have been read any further discussion no all those in favor I all those opposed motion passes 4 Z thank you all right moving on uh two thanks two more to go two hours behind schedule we're going to we're GNA one more right two two uh item 8e recommendation for approval for zoning map Amendment there's three more for preliminary of territorial Grove py neighborhood thank you Mr chair uh just to get bearing straight uh this is the Northwest intersection of Territorial Road in East French Lake Road uh what's being applied for and I've got names wrong on here I apologize for that um so we have territorial Grove which consists of 42 or the proposal is 42 single family homes uh um within the R3 District so this is a an zoning map amendment to rezone it from A1 agricultural to R3 residential as well as preliminary plant for 42 single family lots and we have a fabulous presentation that I I don't want to I'm going to let the developer get into um complications with this project just to mention is that there is a um pipeline easement that cuts through the property diagonally right around here so you can kind of see it through territorial Trails um through here uh generally speaking it the way that the developer is treating this is is it becomes a trail Corridor and so you make a a challenge into an amenity but I'll before I get into it too much I want to have the developer present the slides for this if the chair is okay with that yes say yes yes sorry starting to sleep over here okay I studying the the plat I'll vouch for you studying the maps [Music] yeah hello Mr chair members of the commission I'm Dean Lauder I'm the director of land planning and entitlement with py homes here in Minnesota our address is 1650 West 82nd Street sweet 300 Bloomington Minnesota with me is Paul Hoyer uh he is also with our Our Land planning and entitlement group so is there a way you'd like me to Advance just go next okay thank you John yep um we were here before you uh a few months back as you will recall um and we presented our concept plan there isn't a whole lot that's dramatically changed but we have made some changes based on the feedback that we received through that process I think as John was about to uh elaborate on though if I could just kind of draw your attention to the gas me that is kind of running diagonally uh Northwest to Southeast through the site you've of course got East French Lake Road which is a local road on the East Boundary you have an existing neighborhood to the West and the North and then of course you've got Territorial Road to the South so those are um all the constraining features of the site that we've developed around as best as we possibly could so feedback that we received uh we had a Tot Lot that was shown on the plan it was more of a placeholder than anything but we did receive comment about wanting to have a feature that was applicable to to an array of AG and so we're thinking we would program a pickle ball court there something to that effect people are super excited about pickle ball and and we think it would be a great fit for the community um the homes in in territorial Grove will complement the existing territorial Trail neighborhood uh we have that trail connectivity that we've worked through with staff and responded to in feedback um we had that private amenity there's some open space and we're of course also contributing our Park dedication fees and then uh we would also provide a lit Monument I think in your packet maybe there was a box that needed to be checked and and uh that was an intention we've always had is to provide uh a nice entrance Monument we do have enhanced uh perimeter Landscaping I'm sorry this particular uh depiction is more of an engineered drawing and it doesn't show that but we do have a rendering that that uh shows the the Landscaping that we've submitted um our homes will comply with your architectural performance standards and your code and one of the things we heard also through the public hearing process uh some of the residents in the existing territorial Trail they inquired as to whether uh rhoa would be a standalone or willing to join uh the existing and and of course we're very willing to do that we we've waited to formally engage in that process though until we've gotten kind of you know close to the point that we're at now where we're just about to go um forward through Planning Commission and then on to council could you advance the slide please John y sorry so we do have uh some requests that we um would like to make to you tonight with regards to our site plan uh and that is uh we would like to keep the access point to East French Lake Road as I me me mentioned that is a local Road and often times you have distance concerns between access points like the existing territorial Trail access point to the North and then what we're proposing but this does allow us to kind of maximize uh the development to make it as efficient as possible again it's very it's a tough site it's small and the constraints previously discussed make it difficult to be successful keeping that access point point would would help us do that and so that's one request that we have um the other request that we would ask for your consideration is uh when we originally talked about the exception parcel is there way possibly put your mouse on the there you go the Olsen property um so the request initially was can we keep that access the owner is interested in keeping that access to territorial Trail and uh the the effort at the time was just show that it's possible to make the connection to the kisac and we showed that but now we know more we didn't have our storm water calculations done at the time and in order to comply with all the rules that we need to with how we manage our storm water um the shape of that pond between the Olen house and in between I should say the Olsen house and the culdesac in the Southeast corner has needed to be enlarged and changed and it makes it challenging to get that driveway over to the kisac there's an additional uh element there that's uh difficult to explained but there is a ditch that kind of runs just to the west of where that storm water Pond is um it comes down from some of the Lots North of of the Olen property and runs under Territorial Road that is yet to be determined by the core of engineers as to whether it's a a jurisdictional ditch or not and uh even as late as today I received an email from them that their questions seem to be suggesting it will become uh jurisdictional that would also complicate connecting that driveway into the proposed development and one final thought I ask the commission to consider is Territorial Road uh is a minor col ctor and it currently it has uh 500 trips a day um it's definitely a practice to not allow driveway access on major collectors but not so much the case on minor collectors and uh we just asked for consideration there that the existing driveway connection to territorial be allowed to exist I'm just going to ask my colleague did I miss any points to make about the roads no and I should state that uh I was supposed to be the one giving the presentation and I Dean attended another Planning Commission meeting and this one was so late thank God that he's able to make two in one evening he just couldn't resist leading either wow so and I wanted to keep this brief because I saw the agenda and I'm sure that you appreciate the previty so all I a question for staff Jason probably um can you share some thoughts on Territorial Road Traffic volumes future traffic volumes and the idea of the curb cut on it just so we can put it in perspective wait wait before you ask that question let's also just understand do you currently have control of that parcel part of it's under contract with this plat oh the exception property yeah so this is part of the this is a much larger property than what's shown on here okay that's that's what I wanted to understand so just yeah the the the seller is willing to sell off the back half so we're buying a portion of the existing that's what I wanted to clarify yes sir before we y okay oh that be um we gave him time to territorial is a a busier Road it is a collector we I mean just general practice we'd like to see as many uh connections severed as is possible so we we would follow that guideline um I mean for it to continue to exist there it exists today I don't foresee it being an issue um I was just looking up the counts here it looks like maybe you know 2,000 which seems low actually that is low that's the wrong number um we don't have a projected count on that in the 240 count so I don't know what it would be looks like the most recent count seems to be about 12,700 Vehicles that's closer to 81 so it's actually probably a little lower than that because that's some of the local traffic going out to 81 but maybe in the Thousand vehicle range would be about the thousand how about East French Lake Road since you're looking at um even less so so about the same count there's actually a a counter right by it in 2023 um 1,100 vehicles on that one so it's about the same number of vehicles I I'd say generally the same function it's going to be neighborhood collector long term it'll never be a huge thorough Fair won't be an arterial but the goal would be to limit connections as is practical right Jason what didar do that what would you think it would do to that what was the change going from gravel yeah I can see if there's been any more recent counts 2022 there was 288 cars when did we pave that paved it in 23 I think so I don't we don't have a post Paving right count I'm just wondering if we would have a clue what that did to that traffic on East French cuz I now it seems like it might be another path down so the rest of the commission members my I see this as understanding uh one is how to deal with the home with the driveway um the options are is to let them have the driveway into perpetuity because it's going to be there forever but the other option is to say no you got to connect it which obviously is going to change the plat might kill the dill um but ultimately this owner is benefiting from selling the back half of their lot on top of it so you know the other thing that you could Dean could push back on the property owner and say either you got to sell us everything or and I don't know if that's the right answer but those are the options and the other option is dealing with the road on East French Lake Road I get staff's concern about the curb Cuts being too close um but that's what I was like well what are we really expecting for traffic and on the east side of French Lake Road I know we got a divide guided for low density development but it's only 300 ft of depth between the road and the Wetland it's going to be really hard to maybe develop that with anything but access points on East French Lake Road so then I'm less concerned about and correct me if I'm wrong but I'd be less concerned about having two accesses close together if we're kind of committing to try to keep this road lower traffic and there's going to be driveways along it sure I I would agree it can be tolerated um to be honest our preference would be to not even have the connection yeah correct thinking that they can use the two internals and they're not it's not a large detour to it um if there's benefit or reason to have it um it it's can you pull the pl back up quick question for Dean so I'm just the lot on the south end of your connector so I know staff had some iterations going on where it looked like you'd lose two or three lots if you executed that and Peter this would be a good one for you too could you turn this into a culde saac or you just you lose one lot I get you don't want to lose a lot but is that an option yeah you know Mr chair oh I'm sorry do I have that no I don't have in in the pack yeah yeah the we've looked at various iterations just because the the conversation has kind of meandered a bit um if we put in what's called an eyebrow called AAC there we we lose a lot so that's so I think worst case scenario versus the stuff that was in the planning package it's probably one lot if if that's the route of going saying no access to the road it seems like cuz I mean correct me if I'm wrong that's what I'm trying to think of the and by the way when I'm I'm I think your lot wids what are they on average 60-ish 65 65 they're they're actually uh I believe 67 yeah so you're you're meeting a lot of our requirements there so I'm like you know if they were all 50 foot last like get get rid of a lot yes but so that's where I'm at um and so I guess that's where I'm at I'd be curious to see what your guys' feedback is on how to approach this too I I guess my preference would be I get I get the the eyebrow and the losing the lot from a spacing standpoint and the use of the easement my preference would be to shift the connection there somehow but I get it um you mean move this intersection down try to get it somewhere in there um I get but I get it from your guys' standpoint too um is that just getting too close to territorial in I think the issue is that they lose more Lots when they do that they would lose Lots doing that more than one y yeah I mean I would prefer I if I lived in that neighborhood I would prefer a connection to ter to to either territorial or to French Lake and it's got to be it's almost got to be off French Lake unless you can squeeze it in on right where that pond is coming off and is that I think territorial is going to get it busier I don't think French Rel lake is going to get that much busier it's one of those things if this was developed at the same time of developments in the northw you never put two access points that close to each other right so because they're being developed at different times does that change the the philosophy I think that sums up dating meaning with all the 10 20 acre lots this is the type of stuff we're going to see a lot you have to make tough decisions on and I'm saying one's right or wrong it's just they're the tough decisions we're going to have to make may I speak U Mr chair to to uh your suggestion about moving the access point to the north of to the gas main uh that imperils the project basically cuz we lose five Lots as a result of doing because you'd have to make a somewhat of a cue sack up there or it would swoop that down and there would be a CU like an eyebrow sack also um and and in order to make a a good connection with appropriate lines of sight at the East French Lake intersection that's or or it loses one if you did more like what Darren was talking about initially just the one lot yeah but and and then have a te at at that I think I guess where I was going with the comments is I I think from a traffic flow of this neighborhood it needs a second connection be it on territorial or French Lake for the size of this neighborhood and what it is I mean we just talked about that that other neighborhood en champing well no that the the apartment neighborhood and adding a second a fire access I mean this one is tough to get this one's somewhat tough to drive and figure out where you are if you don't know what it is it's got a curves by by Design and that got a lot of Curves and that's why I'm saying it it does need a second we right now we only have two access points to it yes for how many homes are there and how windy it is to get through it I think it I'm not against the second access point but I will say that where this this one's located it doesn't accomplish as much as as as maybe desired because they're so everything's right together but I get what you're saying now yeah ideally right in line with the East West Road right in the middle but that but they're going to draw different homes yeah like this that bottom one even though it's so close to the top one is going to be drawing all the homes from the new part the top one will continue to draw from like the old the old like yes I realized they're physically close on the road but they are they're not drawing from the two like if you think of it like water right like they're two different pools of water going out well if if any of the Neighbors on that road just just North were here they'd say put the second axis in because they don't want all that traffic going through their street yeah this I'm okay with the the the having the East French Lake Road access point um I'd rather there the territorial territorial we've got issues no yeah I just from the standpoint of of the neighborhood I I think it needs to be one of the two and yeah I guess the biggest reason I'm okay with a two is we don't anticipate traffic counts being crazy we also east side of French Lake Road is not going to be heavily developed because you only have 300 ft between the road and wetlands y y um as far as the driveway access goes to me it's it's kind of like do you want the project or not because it's kind of an All or Nothing meaning I get where they're saying we can't put a driveway in that's super it's basically the what if would be and obviously this owner wants to keep their home I'm not trying to force them out but they're selling the back half of their lot the question I guess I would have the dean is if they were to sell their whole lot are you how would you develop this differently if they were selling the whole lot pull a call another call the sack in um Mr chair uh perhaps um you know again a complicating factor is that ditch and whether it's determined to be jurisdictional or Not by the core which we are hoping to get Clarity out of them on that is the ditch on like on the north side of the pool or something or where's that ditch can I can I approach the screen just kind of show thank you in the um H so there's a portion of it that is up here in this lot uh you're allowed to affect about 150 ft as a DI Minimus impact that ditch runs through the exception parcel up here and it actually comes down and wants to drain just as it's showing here this storm Pond configuration as a result we're actually trying to redesign to not affect any of that ditch down here because we're fully expecting the core to declare jurisdiction so my point of bringing that up is even adding a second house in here likely would impact that ditch and if the core was aware of that I don't think that that would be allowed so it it's a little bit of an unknown but it's um something we're seeing more and more and more on our development sites where we have any kind of what's called a tributary any kind of a ditch um it probably functioned more like that prior to territorial Trail existing but once that neighborhood was built all the storm water management that was engineered and designed on that site very likely took away the water that used to flow through there it doesn't matter to the core uh as crazy as that sounds well and I think Darren to your point of of earlier comment of like as relation to that driveway is this is a great example of when territorial went Trail went in we should have provided a driveway easement in that culde saac to this property and not the other way around now we're going all the way across the property we're going all the way we're we're taking away less land that is usable in other Fashions and it's just a lesson for us up here and now now we're kind of stuck with it is this an option I don't know if there's room to to slide how the house is orientated he might as well just sell the house and scrape it if that was the option so and and you have four houses now with a driveway in their backyard that are relatively new I I think we missed the opportunity to take that last parcel on the culdesac and put the driveway ement there yeah age and we we should have thought about that then none of us were up here at that point so bridge over the water or water over the bridge but I mean I'm okay with the curb cut on Territorial Road because I think it but I mean you understand that we're all trying to self ways to get it off but it just doesn't seem how practical even if you were to buy the whole site there's going to be challenges M how big is that um remaining partiel just the the exception yeah you know how big I I did but it's I'm sorry it's escaping me at this moment Mr chair if it cuts are you are they taken down the shed behind the pool it looks like they are yeah yes it's 4.7 Acres right now so I I guess where I'm going with it it's just over two acres so where I'm going with it is likely likely If This Were to redevelop in the future it's two homes with one curve cut off of Terr one shared driveway yeah or or maybe a a a row of you know quads or something like if this were to redevelop from what it is today are we okay with that and I think that's the answer I have is yes yeah if the property owners listening or listens to this I would tell him that it probably never will be redeveloped with the decision he's making not that we're against it it's just the feasibility and economics of it are what they are yeah well plus there's the I thought not a bad thing so they're aware of that consequence and we don't need house on every square inch of land yep the the one the the only other comment I had is it related to a few of the Lots next to the the gas line easement I up to you guys on how you want to deal with your land but in in the lar neighborhood they they put it right in the lot made bigger lots for the people um something to consider okay um we did have a comment from the gas company that asking if this lck reconfigured so it's more wider than it is depth I I don't know how that works for the house well it doesn't work for the house layout um the gas company's concern was that the whole backyard was within the gas easement which doesn't really impact the gas company and more impacts the property owner and if they put something there they could be out of out of luck yeah we would have restrictions on those lots of course and they would sign disclaimers along you know when they would close that they would acknowledge they can't build swimming pool in the backyard there or if you put do anything even put in accessory building you could put a shed up but you'd be at your risk if they had to come in and do something and then the only the only other related comment to that one at least what's in the drawings is that one just s of the easement that backs up to French Lake if you were to flip that driveway you could actually snug it up closer cuz of the way the the building pad is but that's semantics is what we're talking about I just noticed that when when they did our NE my neighborhood over in the our development they like ran the jaged edges so you can't ever expand the house pad from what lar put in but I see maximize your your Footprints and all that stuff so you're not saying lar is better than py right now are you no I hope not just kidding appreciate that no just helping looking for them to make an extra Buck on a lot I'm good I I I think we leave the this is a public hearing yes all right 11:04 we will open the public hearing any further discussion up here I think Scott's got a question Scott's got a question he's here has well talk exactly you know do it up they all stop that territorial I got I got it in my notes yeah just I'm just going to reiterate that uh especially because territorial or I'm sorry East French Lake your is it comes South to territorial it drops quite a bit and right now the problem is at the elevation to the West you can't see down territorial right especially if you're trying to teach one of your six kids to drive and you're supposed to stop at the stop light or stop sign and it's it's 20 ft back from where you can even see see so I always had to teach him to you know creep down and peek out and hope you don't get hit um so if I'm assuming that the elevation there will still be quite High I don't think you're going to make that road drop off down towards Territorial and it doesn't look like there's a lot of room to cut the grade back Beyond South lot uh so I would just emphasize again i' think it' be a really good idea to have a three-way stop at uh that Territorial and use frch like Ro I should know this was territorial city or county road city city road thank you thank you thank you so who makes the decision on putting stop signs on City roads City Engineers Eng um Can can you expand on engineering study or what what goes on to how about this instead of expanding on that Jason can you look at at some sort of traffic control there because it is a bad and blind intersection we can there's there's guidance it's it's a terrible sight lines on the the northwest corner that will be corrected with the project that gradient will come down the the roads themselves won't change certainly not dramatically if at all uh but that corner will be brought down it'll be either a trail constructed or at least left in a condition where a trail can be constructed I don't know what the final requirement will be but that that grade will come down and those sight lines will open up with the with the project and I do know like to with the sidelines the overgrowth is well into I think our right away as a city that corner is tight it's terrible yeah so I don't know if there's something we can do in the interim to help but um based upon I believe there's consensus up here regarding the driveway not requiring a driveway easement and leaving the essentially approving the plat as is I'm going to make a motion to approve the preliminary plat John you got to help me out here what's what are we all approving here zoning map Amendment and pre preliminary plat I'll make a motion to approve the zoning plat amendment to AR zoning and the preliminary plat as presented by the applicant we have a motion a second have a motion in a second the and with that we will close the public hearing at 11:07 thank you back there thanks Chris we have a a motion in a second any further discussion all those in favor I I all those opposed motion passes 4 Z thank you Mr chair thanks for sticking around guys I'm going to make a motion to table items FG second so I'll add to that there there's specific to the um what we call this Canabis cannabis I'm thinking car and I'm thinking other things so yes it's like um the city council has adopted a moratorium on the Cannabis that expires the end of this year um January 1st there's new state regulations that take plays and so a decision needs to be made before the end of this year we have time to table this till December um but that is all the 10 that we have how is the December agenda looking just so um it's like compared to same then we're going to keep I'm going to keep continue with my suggestion we have a motion to well motion we have a motion to table these two items second and second all those in favor I I all those opposed motion passed items are tabled that's it uh new business says none none notice and announcements yes um so the next plan commission meeting is December 5th which coincides with holla Dayton Holly Dayton so we should have a good turnout uh yeah we should watch the light parade and then come to Planning Commission meeting so I guess my question for the commission is would you like to um postpone this to to what's the date the 12th the 12 yeah December 12th I don't think that'll work for [Music] me what could you possibly have going on H oh or Wednesday or or Wednesday December 4th I can't do Wednesdays Wednesday it' be fine for me or the 12th I teach tues two the only thing that I'm thinking about with uh this actually the 12th would be okay right now the only thing I'm thinking about in connection to this being adopted by the end of January is that uh really the only city council meeting would be the 10th um and otherwise this ordinance Amendment which I'm sure that you know there's only a couple there might be eight days of overlap between when the year turns to win that first city council meeting is that's fine I just wanted to bring that up to let you guys know that uh the second meeting in December for the council is really more of a formal open the meeting approve the bills and then they close it and that's that so um just to keep that in mind if I just wanted to bring that up just to give you quick feedback I read through most of the ordinance and I thought it looked pretty good so I appreciate that I'll second [Music] so we're saying December 12th though I can do the 12th John um is this is the fifth avoiding the the parade is it for our sake or busyness or what is it CU well so there's there's a few things so with these two items are they're public hearings um the public is not going to be able to get here from a practical standpoint on the f um you you're likely be parking on the street and walking half a block okay as we we perfect that's why I was curious about all right if you wanted to do the fifth I mean I wouldn't advise it but it's still a possibility um not practical at all um and I'm sorry it's not the it's not the 12th it's the four Thursday the fourth it's the 12th it's the 12th look next month you need to go through Council this year or can that be January [Music] um if it went in January we're taking a chance that someone's going to apply for a cannabis license and we don't have ordance regul I think we're okay yeah we don't have enough the only we don't have a retail location and the only good thing about that as well is that the state has to allow the local government 30 days to respond to zoning compliance so really I mean you want to go Janu or you and technically if an applicant came in we could I don't want to be a jerk but we rule 6A EXT I think there's a way we Canal it so at the next meet what whatever that is so we have the Cannabis Ordnance we have the temporary sign Ordnance um we'll also have a concept plan and one interm use permit renewal right possibly more but TR we're also working on a a new A3 agricultural District but be a longer discussion so it might be better for as you're working on a new ordinance I know we suggested this earlier but sometimes after you got it crafted a work session might be more appropriate than just throwing it out in front of the public and us getting beat up without understanding some of the nuances that maybe we could work out in the work session when am I officially on the City January okay one more we have a as part of notice and announcements a congratulations thank you and we have a upcoming vacancy so yes yes not official yet um okay so back to the December meeting 12th 12th 12th December 12th okay looking ahead to the January 2nd finding commission meeting that won't be my problem night uh might still be it will be my problem if you're not sworn any yet you can always come participate 16th for me I'm fine with the second I mean I'm around we in Fargo that's too bad either one's fine I got nothing going on in the winter um yeah I'm good with the ninth or 16th let's do the ninth then y make a motion to a turn second I we have a motion in a second all those in favor I I I all those oppos meeting is adjourned e