for e we're roll through it faster all right it is uh 6:30 we will call the January 9th of 2025 Planning Commission meeting to order um first order business is the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge of aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all no no all right uh roll call um and there he is so uh all the planning Commissioners are present as soon as Darren sits down uh role of Planning Commission is is listed on here um on the agenda next we'll move into approval of agenda any corrections or changes uh no all right anyone else moving items around motion to approve the agenda as listed a second we have a motion and from Nick and a second from uh Paul all those in favor I I I all those opposed motion passes 5 consent agenda uh the only items on the consent agenda are Planning Commission minutes from December 12th correct I'll make a motion to approve those minutes second we have a motion in a second all those in favor I I I I all those oppos motion passes five to Zer open form is there anyone here for open form come on forward public comments are limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items state your name address no action will be taken tonight um thank you my well Mara if you get away till you get to the microphone we won't we won't hold you to the hard three minutes until you sit down I'm just teasing okay so Lane um so I have a question for you guys would you like a gas station across the street from your well there are currently four gas stations within 2 to four miles of 113th in Fernbrook Lane and another under construction on I94 which is the Quick Trip the second quick trip and yet another developer wants to put one on the freeway by his apartment complex that he's going to build again at Dayton Parkway in I94 and that makes two at that intersection counting the one proposed by Tom Dean that'll be seven seven gas stations within a 2 to 5 mile radius of 113th in fernor Lane seven do we really need seven gas stations south of South Diamond Lake Road there's nothing north of Diamond Lake Road at all so do we really need one in the middle of a group of homes that use groundwater as their only source of water that brings me to another question when does the city plan to run city sewer and water to the homes that are currently along Fernbrook Lane and 13th if no plans are made then you're forcing the residents of these homes to rely on only on groundwater and water is necessary to life the groundwater provides these parents and children with water to drink water to cook with wash the dishes with water to shower with wash their hair and to bathe in the ground water is also used to Water Gardens water pets and livestock and to swim in and these Wells provide the life of that water to the residents so if the city allows a company to come in setup shop with the potential to pollute this Lifeline to the citizens who's responsible the residents aren't responsible they didn't want it the business is responsible the developer is responsible and of course the city is especially responsible since they are not giving the residents any alternative to protect themselves also there's no plan for commercial development in this area on the 20 240 comp plan so you either stick with the comp plan or you throw the whole thing out the window and the residents are free to do what they want because there is no plan does the city have a responsibility to protect its citizens that's a resounding yes the city has speed limits they plow the roads for safety the city has a police department the city has a fire department the city has all kinds of rules and regulations just recently a man got tagged for having three boats in his backyard so this is says that the city accepts responsibility to protect the health and the security of the residents with six other gas stations within two two to five miles of Fernbrook Lane and 113th is the city doing its job protecting the Safety and Security of the residents when it allows a gas station in the middle of the neighborhood where all the residents have no choice but to rely on their groundwater with all that poisoning in it and you can't say it won't work there are currently at least five properties in the neighborhood recently battling water problems on their land or in their houses leaky holding ponds have already occurred at two relatively new locations in that neighborhood leaky water leaky holding ponds again would you want a gas station across the street from your well I don't think so thank you thank you thank you anyone else here for open Forum again guys good evening sir Lee hulquist 11471 firm Brook Lane uh I'm here to complain again about drainage my sun pump is still running several times an hour the is frozen it shouldn't be running um Zach was out and looked at things and and he said it shouldn't be running uh the developer the more he digs out there the more more water I get and now you plan to approve uh the DCM project that's just going to make it worse I'm afraid that's going to just overrun my overwhelm my sup pumps there you know you got to figure out where this water is coming from because it's not groundwater at this point it's something under the ground that's been diverted and I think you have a responsibility I had talked to you about it when you approved that project at the Lee property and it didn't seem to be a concern then it's a concern now you're forcing water onto my property and I'm starting to get irritated now um I guess I'd like to know where the water's coming from um Zach like I say came on looked at it I haven't heard from him this is a real problem I mean I like I say it's middle of January we shouldn't be pumping water on Frozen Ground so and I I you know uh Nick had a suggestion we'll put in more holding ponds but holding ponds don't replace the wetlands that were taken out when 113 or 117th ran there was Wetlands all along the side of that single Lane Gravel Road and those are all gone now so I don't know where the water's going but I think you guys have a responsibility to figure out where it's coming from and where it's going and what you can do about it and if I say much more I'll just get angrier so you all have a good day thank you thank you thank you anyone else here for open for all right moving along Council update no council member here anything to note John it's new year new council member obviously hasn't been sworn in yet no all right Tuesday nice all right from there we have item number eight uh public hearing for recommendation of approval um of a resolution approving an iup for a home extended business's get this all right thank you Mr chair members of the Planning Commission uh tonight you're asked to consider an interim use permit for a home extended business at 15430 Brockton Lane North uh the applicant John herbs uh part of John and Jerry asfalt and concrete services uh just a little bit of background the property is zoned A1 and is 10.93 acres in size uh the request is specifically for a home extended business for storage of materials such as sand dirt Lumber dump trucks trailers and equipment for the business uh the concrete and asphalt company um the request would also uh utilize one accessory structure the Eastern shed on the property uh and store items within the structure as well as outside all right uh one of the critical issues that was identified when reviewing this application is uh the request for dump truck storage um outside on the property uh the ordinance allows for one standard vehicle under 18,000 gross vehicle weight associated with the business uh to be on site the applicant has stated that uh concrete and asphalt work is not conducted on site and is requesting for the opportunity to store dump trucks uh on the property uh that would be picked up by employees at the start of the day and utilized offsite um the applicant currently has two large dump trucks and one on ton dump truck uh for the business and would request flexibility be given to this number number as he anticipates the business to continue to grow um if the Planning Commission feels uh this can be accommodated staff provided a recommendation in the staff report um staff is asking the commission to engage in a discussion to address this item and make a recommendation and I will say in the reverse of that um if the Planning Commission feels that uh the request is inconsistent with the interim use permit uh ordinance for home extended business uh the staff is asking for the Planning Commission to uh findings of facts so we would be able to put a resolution together um to them present to the city council uh whether for a recommendation of approval or denial um and again I just uh note that uh these are the standard conditions of approval that uh would uh staff would recommend if the Planning Commission felt um that the request would be warranted um really that's all I have for you here and that uh includes um a 6ot opaque fence uh to be installed on the North property line uh for improved screening from the adjacent residential use uh that North property and I will note that this green line is the actual property line uh hennipen County does have a an identified error on the gis in this area of Dayton um and that's uh been shown through some uh plating documents that uh henpen county has on their GIS website um the property the house directly north of this uh exist of this subject property um based on the survey that was provided when the house was built is roughly 75 ft from that South property line so that radius there includes that 25 ft area additional onto the property uh that would have to be otherwise not utilized for outdoor storage for this area um and that's strictly for uh the outdoor storage not necessarily the drive AIS that is there currently um that requires I believe a 10 foot setback in the egg District um and uh with that I'll answer any questions a clarifying thing moving forward um I think it's inappropriate that the actual title on the agenda is recommendation of approval of an approval um for a couple reasons first off this is a public hearing we should not have any it should be neutral we shouldn't be making any statements about approvals or denials before the public has a chance to speak um and also it's not a re like City staff is not a recommending body right we're here to talk about the interm use permit and that's how the agenda should have been stated um I've had a couple people reach out to me um exact comments were I can't believe the city has already approved this and my response was the city has not approved anything I'm like well that's not what the agenda says the agenda says that you guys are voting on an approval and in the dra like we have a draft approval already there all this recommendation approval approval approval so moving forward these things need to be on the agenda and in the packet in a neutral tone um they cannot have approval or denial already kind of pre-assumed um because that also puts everyone in the commission I mean just in the night the the title of the agenda item has the word approval twice you're already pre-loading people to approve this thing before anyone has had a chance to talk about it and that's not appropriate so I I have some other things but I just wanted to get that out there right away so I'll just add on that that I'm okay if you say staff recommends approval but just be very clear it's staff recommending approval or denying approval and then you guys can either State your reasons in the package which is preferred that's what the public sees or you know and add more supplemental data during the meeting sure so when and I don't want to make a big deal out of this when we put together packets we have resolution draft res resolutions for approval typically like we can do resolutions for denial as well yeah I'm just saying but the item shouldn't have approval in the item like it should say we're talking about an interm use permit that's what we're talking about like that's how the item should be should be you're specifically referencing how it's listed on the agenda a public hearing for an inter use permit on this property it should yes um the the comment I was going to make actually regarding how this this one is set up with the PowerPoint versus the packet unless you have more slides there were some pretty some photos in the packet that don't describe the current condition of the property and what was shown here I could surely bring those up and I I just want to make that clear because it is it is you know not everyone dives into these packets and and not everyone's as familiar as you guys you two gentlemen I'm assuming since you're wearing the Hat with the company name on it you two are with us I wish I the other one is and you got it on your sweatshirt but you guys and you know just to because some of my coms revolve around these that that I'll have of just the site and and how it's used and it's not fair for other people to not know where those comments generated from so any other discussion on on this I would like to hear from the public yeah and then I have comments do we want to bring the applicant forward first and then yeah can we bring the public first then I can answer questions just an Ask tell them they can come after you can come you can come back up after yeah we we typically want to hear your side of the story open it to public and then bring you guys back forward so all [Music] right one thing we did we did not clean up name and address name John herbus address 15430 Brockton Lane Dayton Minnesota all right so uh Hayden did a nice job kind of telling us a little bit about what the site's going to be used for you run the business or a part of running the business correct um it'd be nice to just hear a little bit more of of what you guys intend on using the site and how you intend on using it size of equipment um you know how often I know he said in the morning and in the evening but how often is it 7 days a week what type of work is this you know asphalt and concrete I'm assuming with what's your operation what I read because I'm in the industry I'm assuming it's more driveways and smaller smaller stuff but that was my assumption is it larger that those are the we do more more residential than we actually do any big commercial but we do get commercial we'll actually just hire on more trucks in that we don't own we just hire them to to work for us on that day y and and so um basically if I knew they were coming out they the two gentlemen were very nice to work with let you know that part um I didn't know there was going to be photos otherwise I to clean stuff up a little more this is just exactly the worst of the worst on what it is and so um a lot of the stuff on the fence line in that is some of my scrap metal I the business doesn't scrap but I'm a cheap skate and I don't throw nothing away might as well utilize it and be green and put it back into use um and then also for our trucks will have drump trucks come in and park overnight and then leave in the morning cuz you know they can't be driving them around and uh you know uh there's one of the trailers there's our skid and so at this time I was uh just cleaning up the back there um you know uh gravel's been put down so that we have a hard surface to drive on so that it doesn't beause problems in that way any the questions that you have yes one clarification you know the previous picture does it look like that today um some of that stuff has been removed because it was asked by you guys to remove that so the fence could be put on there sure so just a preference the the day that we were out there was the same day that John Was preparing to to pour a floor in the pole bar so everything and I did check for permit yeah everything that was in there was outside so well and and I think you made a good clarification to you're this is obviously a home home use permit and if you're a scrapper I mean that's no different than other application applicants who've come up who've had kids toys all over the yard and it's a mess but they're home use home use business one more thing that you guys need need also to realize this is down in a hole when you guys drive by you can't see anything from the road so I have one neighbor that lives next to me and I just trying to get to know him um and he's the one that's going to be on the other side of that fence and it was interesting I found out um I didn't realiz that there was a difference on the lot line and maybe that's some of the concern he might have had I can't speak for him but to find out defense is the right lot line that's was interesting to find out in this whole process as well so this is a correct thing you're putting up a privacy fence correct out of respect to make sure that you know they don't have to look at what I have on this side is that a six foot wood fence or what's the that's been what's been suggest suggested is a six foot fence okay um permeable was the word that they used I had to ask what it meant yeah yeah and that would be on the south side of those trees we see in the would be right where that where a top rail PC is yeah you can see the top rail yep I would have to ask for permission to make sure that I could step on the other property out of respect and if I had to trim some trees back because the trees are approaching over can you expand a little bit on like the business activities on site like a typical day like you're wanting to request to store some dirt on site and aggregate materials is the idea that you're kind of staging for a job that day or what's the how is that working with it would be cost effective we actually go pick up whatever product we're going to use but at the end of the day instead of throwing it away we may put it into a pile and when we get a big enough pile we'll just use that pile so that we're B basically not throwing stuff away um and it's mainly just um gravel or sand that's used for concrete either one of those two things don't have a lot of black dirt um and if I do get it I'm going to be using it on the property itself because it's so Sandy it is one Sandy spot how many vehicles how many vehicles I um at this time I have one thing was also given me recommendation to be wise and asking that I had can expand I don't really plan on expanding it could happen um but I want to be good for the next five years before I come back and ask again um right now we have two full dump trucks and then I have my personal 550 that I'm driving around that is a dump truck um and then um two other smaller trucks that are underneath that variance number and just to clarify so you are currently residing at the property correct and I'm on the title yep I noticed that I was just a little confused with the there's either your son or daughter is living there too I think correct yep okay I just want yep you can't afford to buy that on your own at least I can oh no I I was just more Curious just to make sure you were living there too cuz it's your business not their business correct correct well they're part owners too they have interest into it it have outline of of multiple owners in the packet yeah they didn't they were he was just listed as the owner of the business the homeowners were all three yeah and they're on the application as well in case I croak they don't have to come back in here and bother you guys again it's already being taken care of so I've been have some I've had some wise coaching on the way I don't know much I just work any other questions my how long have you been in business was in business 30 years ago got all of it for a little while and went back into business so I probably have over 30 years in this name of this business okay is um were you operating from a different location prior to this I'm still I'm still doing my main office out of Maple Grove okay this was to allow me to um have one more location where I can put the trucks in one spot have a generalization you know so and Maple Grove you know has been kind to me and working with them as well and so I'm still planning on there could be days I'm driving home like the other day I was driving home I just brought the Peter belt to my house so it's not going to not always everything's going to be here but it gives I want to make sure I'm asking for enough so I don't break the rules that's should we public yeah I don't think I have anything else all right thank you thank you all right uh at uh is it 7:50 or 6:54 we will open the public hearing anyone like to come forward and speak on this one come on forward state your name and once you get up here hand the slip over and then state your name and address and be given about three minutes I'll just more so for while while we're killing time here more so with these with public hearings if we start hear and repeat comments we'll probably start cutting you off we will there's a flash drive here and I think he's requesting to have whatever's on there be shown for the public if the chair will allow I can explain this yeah why don't you why don't you talk through it and be a good starting and then we'll my name is Daryl Z I'm the property directly north of his property and um I'm not thrilled about this um thing is noisy it's a mess there see those trees there used to be filled out full of green perfect barrier there's a black shock road that was just just put in he's got the whole uh the whole place set up for business and now we're asking for a conditional use permit isn't that supposed to be done before the before the business is set up on the property I mean isn't this kind of ass backwards it seems like that to me you know and then the city is recommending it on their I mean I'm wondering this all seems upside down to me you know um one of the things that this is not supposed to do it's not supposed to be a nuisance to my property it's not supposed to affect my property there's no way that this dump cannot affect value of my property I'm 70 some years old I'm going to be retiring here I'm probably going to sell the place who am I going to find to buy this place unless I can find somebody who's in a similar business to what he's in I I've had offers I had uh for example I've got Emerald Das bore problem there I had a tree guy come out he looked around he said if you ever sell this place we let me know cuz he said I'd like to buy it well he's got he's in the tree service he's got spades he's got the big boom arms and whatever and Disposal dump trucks the whole deal it would it would take up a lot of I said I don't think the city will allow you to do it here well here I got it going on with my next door neighbor and if I hadn't raised a little hell we wouldn't even be here so why wasn't this done before you know I mean my trees may not be dead they're dying I mean these Bruce trees typically they die from the bottom up so the lower the lower branches are are are falling off their the the meals are all gone that sort of thing and it's getting worse it's worse than that right now I mean those things could have been discussed there's there's 13 or there's 11 acres there and he decides that he needs to tuck this right up to my fence this is not supposed to be a a nuisance this is a a video shot from the back can we get my property up there I think this was from the this side of your property when I came out to visit you with this or do you mean an aerial aerial yeah I mean your setback say well you know he needs to be 100 ft away from my house um I shot this video up here behind my barn working on a horse in the round p i just happen to be home a little bit earlier that day normally I start at 7 in the morning I'm a I'm a equin veterinarian I'm an ambulatory veterinarian I I drive people's Farms to work on horses and it was a slow day day for whatever reason I came back said this actually is two or three different days and this is what I hear in my yard so are we okay to play it it'll take a few minutes but so okay I guess you okay you're okay with it keep talking any any opposition okay I think we would have preferred an opportunity for staff to see what was on at first make sure it's not malicious but we'll just trust that it's not not what malicious you and your your city engineer have it's just you know we're loading something up there and we're all going to see it for the first time right now just there could be anything on it is what I'm saying well one of the uh not for censorship but just to make sure one of the statements the the city made on the approval uh application is they see no problem with with noise you know all the you need to do is hook up uh you know dump a little here dump a little there hook up the trailers and leave well I'm there and I'm listening to this stuff this is how this because he's in business already he he hasn't filed his permit yet or anything like that he's in business and uh this is what it sounds like for my property thank you when I went uh when uh Mr heris moved in um was in 23 I went over there introduced myself to him I said U you know I told him who I was and he said yeah he told me he lived in Maple Grove U at his place there and that his daughter and her husband was living at the place there apparently either he made a mistake when he told me that or or he since then moved over there I don't know um the other question I have is if you go to the question there home occupation question there uh question number three who will be employed in this home occupation what will their duties be John herbus owner manager Mitch fry advertising yearly Corman owner concrete Nick Corman owner asphalt who are these guys so they own part of the part of the business we're asking for a home occupation permit is that is that standard I'm asking you guys I'm asking for your your opinion I mean I don't know it sounds it's a concern of mine I don't know standard is kind of a tough question the answer directly have we seen it before I think we have I think we SE were you own part of the business no where and you get a home occupation where someone was approved a home occupation I believe there was two owners to the company one lived on site Mr chair members of the Planning Commission if I could clarify um the inter use permit for home extended business does permit the property owner to have two additional employees go to the site um and I will just note that within the last couple years there have been home home extended businesses approved up to 15 employees on site um I'm talk about owners right I I mean the number of owners isn't significant it's the number of people home occupi business uh they don't operating at the home huh a business that's operating from the home so does make any difference who owns it no I will see if this is this is shot in September and October I'm about 250 ft away from North property line This is facing south does it have speakers tied up to it that's what I'm trying to well I heard him when he slid the sound right I heard it dang me try a different file otherwi I could probably play it off the cell phone too it's a small this is my y I put a lot of work into keeping that place look nice um are you hearing anything over there oh there we [Music] go so darl in that video is the truck that you're yeah is that an idling truck we're dumping something yeah I'm standing in the back my stand [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] I'm not there a lot and I don't be Grudge the guy for wanting to make the living I'm just a little bit concerned Why it needs be parked right up against my fence line when he's got 11 acres there to put a pad out and sort this equipment [Applause] I assure you that was louder when I was recording that but it is were all of these taken on the same day no three days three different [Applause] days is there a time stamp on no looks like these are all okay sure sure [Applause] that was all of them like I said um I'll probably be retiring here in the next maybe this year maybe next year and that place will be up for sale I'm going to have a hell of a time selling that place to a family with a couple kids with this kind of commotion going on and these guys are allowing them 15 16 hours a day whatever to come in and out making this kind of Racket and stuff and uh not to mention I guess they can be slobs if they want they can but the place is a mess if I think Fred Sanford would be insulted if if uh if uh you know if you called his place uh messier than this one um and for you young guys that's an old TV show about a guy with a junkyard anyhow um so I'm asking that it not be allowed thank you you have any questions for me I don't I don't thank you right now appreciate it thank you for your time anyone else [Music] I'm Bernie Camp I live at 15281 Brockton Lane just down the road from Daryl I've known darl for about 40 years he's been my horse vent I have some concerns about this situation also next to him um basically from the comp plan as far as I understand this area is supposed to be a residential area and I realize right now it's still agricultural but at the same point it's more residential and this type of operation seems like it should be more in an industrial area on that I think Daryl right now is the most affected by this um some concerns like he mentioned if he would want to sell this he might have uh this situation might have a negative impact on him for his sale he's already been negatively impacted by the loss of several of the pine trees along the fence line I was down there a couple months ago to look at that um many of the trees have died as a result of the heavy equipment and moving dirt along that fence line and I feel he should be compensated for his losses he planted all those trees he's been out there about the same time as I have on there about 36 years or something like that um and the cost to remove all those trees that are dead I mean he's going to end up having to do that at some point especially if he goes to sell he's not going to be able to have those trees there so somebody should be paying for that and then I guess if I I would look at it if you're going to approve this I would want to see a setback from the fence line about 200 ft to the south of that or they could be operating their business to give it some kind of a decent buffer and keep the trash you know out of there and also the equipment maybe that would cut down on some of the noise especially if you had to have a privacy fence there you thank you thank you thank you come on for yeah hi my name is John bernens I live at 17921 Dayton River Road so my property is uh shares a property line with both Daryl and the applicant for the business um I'll Echo what Daryl says so there's significant noise that comes off of that property even at my house which is set far away from the area and for all transparency is it a huge bother for me no when the dump truck doors slam yes my house shakes things like that right but the concerns I have are the expansion of the business the proximity to Daryl's House the respect for the process of the permit application and just the general cleanliness I've been over to darl's house several times um my mail come goes over there quite a bit right so I have to go over there get it uh hopefully they'll figure that out soon enough but um in the meantime I do go over there it is loud uh there is very little respect for the property line and sharing a property line with this business myself I do have concerns about as this business expands if he is dumping these piles he talks about where are those going to end up right will there be respect for the property line on the backside of the property as well is a six-foot privacy fence really going to help Daryl with the issues that he has and I do think that he presents some very real grievances when it comes to property value and what it and what the this business presents to his property I mean if I'm a family with small children is that somewhere that I'm going to want to live I don't know very many people who are going to want that kind of activity going on right behind their house I mean he's already within proximity of the laid out I assume that purple area is the minimum of what it should be to a residential property he's already within those bounds um and so those would be my concerns around this for both Daryl but for also the future and what it would mean for my property uh and having little kids myself like I said is it that big of a deal not really does the TR dumb truck wake up my newborn every once in a while yes that does happen but um hey I I also do understand that people do need to make living um but I do think you need to think about where this property is what is adjacent to this property and it is mainly homes and and they're not that spread out and so I just wanted to come in give my two cents as someone who does Board of the property I was someone who did get the letter um to come in and comment on it um and I do also have a lot of respect for Daryl and what he's going through and wanted to make sure that I came and voice my opinion on that so thank you good evening Planning Commission my name is Terry mcneel and I reside at 15601 Brockton Lane I appreciate the comments at the beginning about the characterization in the packet as being preapproved so I'm glad to know that that isn't the case and that we are discussing this um I I just don't I would vote for I would encourage you to deny this I I look at this as any resident in the city of Dayton we have 10,000 residents if each one had a house and you went and you described this going in next to their house you wouldn't find 1% saying I believe that's a good idea and I feel that there's some protections afforded to us as as homeowners here and those pictures are alarming that's the first time I've seen those pictures now I'm even more concerned about what is going in this is industrial use Dayton has places for these businesses and you put this in next to my residence I would be up here more animated than Daryl um we work hard to keep things clean picked up my place is agriculture I have 30 Acres over there and you work hard um and even looking at some of these conditions of Staff recommendation a 6ot opaque fence I mean my opinion is you're just putting more clutter in there that's going to deteriorate and be an eyesore for when you're selling this place 100 ft from the adjacent home like how about two or 300 ft I mean you you can hear these These are commercial vehicles Industrial Vehicles uh it's 11 acres why would the onus be on us as residents to tolerate it instead of the onus being on hey build a building that can house this equipment keep it out of sight keep the noise mitigated why isn't that the approach you continue to look at these conditions I mean you're saying that they can operate 7: to 10: 7:00 a.m. to 10: why don't you just say operate all day you know if I'm out there having a barbecue and I hear these trucks coming in I mean what's my quality of life shouldn't that be considered you look at um you know the use and storage of large dump trucks you know you just look at seven and 13 as far as the inventory of what's going in over there it's more than a few dump trucks I look at s and 13 and add those up uh vehicle trips going to monitor this for 4 to8 how would you monitor this I'm the resident I'm now I'm speaking with some passion like this is going in next to me I I have these uh concerns about number of trips I call Dayton what happens we're not monitoring not monitoring okay so then it's a he said he said yeah okay that's a problem that's you might as well get that out of there interim use permit interim what does that mean temporary 5 years I just heard Daryl's in his 70s 5 years hate to say it darl that might be a lifetime so why would you grant an interim use for 5 years the business is already been operating are you asking this business for where have you looked for other areas to put your industrial business where have you been denied you know this is a matter of his convenience and like everyone said we're pro we want to be Pro business in the right areas and we have Zoning for that now you have a process where you're going to look through this and see does it meet your standard for a interum use I don't see how you can grant this and you're going to give ample notice when you go investigate we just saw the pictures I mean what's going to happen when you give Le notice of an on-site visit you're going to get temporary cleanup and the best site possible you're not going to get reality that the resident next door lives with can't believe that um I look at some of these you know will there be any outside storage Lumber dirt sand dump trucks trailers skids attachments asphalt equipment concrete equipment large trailers rollers tools for concrete all right next to my residence how long would you anticipate home occupation to be uper 10 years you know so you grant this an applicant comes back and this isn't about John this is about anyone coming back someone's going to come back and say I just want to expand for another trailer you know are you really going to say no I kind of have my doubts I want to add one more you know Good Fortune hit I can add two more trucks on site will the home occu occu uh occupation produce glare noise yeah starting of trucks and small motors yeah I would like that on right behind my deck um do you need a sign no however if they come back I mean you already have a business there maybe you do approve a sign you know would I want that when I'm putting my house for sale um and you know when I know that John said or the applicant said that hey he was encouraged to discuss or admit if there's a possibility for expansion and so 21 does on the applicant's uh application does allude to the ability to grow if your business isn't growing it's dying so everyone wants to grow their business and if you you grant this for 5 years you know are you saying no next time when it does expand well I had it on the application and now you're denying me so I I look at this as you know I don't know my family has been here for 150 years something like that um you know there's a place for industrial use and then there's there's a place for uh residential and Agri culture this is a place for residential and Agriculture and not industrial use thanks thank you thank you I'm Brenda Leonard I live at 18546 1 152nd Avenue um I live just south of this residence and when you're outside you can hear the noise um I have a pool so I have people over all the time and you know they're always sitting there and you can hear the trucks backing up you know that backup Beep Beep Beep Bang so it just as a family resident I I feel the noise is irritating to say the least so that's all I really have to say about it because I don't see the other stuff I mean when I drive by I don't see it but it does affect you know the other side too and we're not I mean I'm not exactly close but close enough to to have it bother me too so thank you thank you Keith Grover 11320 Fernbrook Lane this was not a subject that I was planning on speaking here tonight about but it kind of rolls into the same thing that those of us that live on Fern book Lane in 113th are looking at we've looked at the the city's plan and watched the city developed the plan and knew someday we were going to be looking at houses across the street from our house we knew that and we're we don't like that but we're prepared for that to happen at some point that looks pretty soon by the way things look but we're not prepared for is to go from an agricultural Zone or from a residential SL agricultural Zone that we live in to a commercial Zone and I see what you guys are looking at here tonight with this application is taking a piece of property that's not Zone commercial and taking it making it a full-blown commercial piece of property in amongst folks that have lived there for years looked at the city maybe bought land here based on the plan for the city have their pieces of property develop them in a nice neat way and taken care of them and then sticking a commercial piece of property next to them I understand why they're here and why they don't want that I really do I don't want to stand in my front yard and look at a gas station 247 with lights and noise and and crime and all the pollution that goes with it either it all boils down to the same thing we have rules to follow we have guidelines that the city has set up for years we follow those guidelines although not to their best ability sometimes but they're there as guidelines and I think that's what you guys should be looking at to guide you into the future granting this permit I don't think follows those guidelines at all any more than sticking a gas station across the street from those of us that live on fbook Lane that's all I have thanks thank you hi Lee hulquist 11471 for Brook Lane I don't see why you also complain about the noise here because I got more noise than that 200 yards from my back door and it bothers me and it didn't seem to be a concern then um you guys have said the developer can work on my 75 ft from my doorstep uh 10 hours a day during the week and only eight hours a day on weekends so I don't if you're going to get consistent with noise be consistent with it and um again the noise is as big a bother as anything else in my a not quite as big as water in my basement anything new to add noise the noise thing it's a little different because if there's no construction going on I tolerate yeah if you please I tolerated for a long time because I was told that he was going to remodel his Horse bar into a a garage to to be a repair shop for his vehicles I assume it was for his car or his pickup or whatever never heard a thing about dump trucks and and 40ft trailers and and you know rolling you know skiters any of that stuff never heard any of that but so when it's construction you think well it's noisy you don't like it but it's not going to last forever this thing is meant to last for years it's not forever but like Terry said it could be forever depending who you are you know that's all I have thank you anyone else on this public hearing all right with that we will if the applicant wants to come back forward we will close the public hearing though at 7:26 applicant would you like to come back forward one thing is true is Daryl's really well known in the community all I've heard is good things about him um I went over there the first day that we brought actually before we bought the property I came to the city and asked about this do I need to get a conditional use permit they said long as you get along with your neighbors don't cause problems not a big deal I went over there introduced myself to Daryl and I'd like just so darl sees this I want to get along with all of you I've came over to darl's house and the first thing he said to me when I actually asked him how much cash did you pay for that property in the site you didn't really pay that price it bothered me because it had nothing to do with what I was there I just wanted to get to know my neighbors um looking at this Daryl said to me when he called me this year um and if I say anything wrong darl please speak up because I want you to hold me accountable and you called me and you threat me that I have to do something today and we're angry I actually replied that it's bothering me anyways let's leave that piece out then how did I you better do something today or I'm calling the city I looked over the fence and I see that you've done a lot of things over there and I'm angry I want to sell my place I said two things one let me work with you and two I said what do you want for the place my wife would love to get closer okay so I want to be respectful so I'd like to apologize if because of part of this is out of Daryl's a good guy I don't know how I got on the wrong side of him okay so I'm bringing this pieces up because I've tried to work at getting to know he asked me if we could put up a fence I said no problem we'll put it right on the fence line come to find out there was a dispute on where the property line was I just found that out in the paperwork okay so if there's something wrong I want to make things better in fact I was asked by the Planning Group would I want to get along with my neighbor after this and I said yes and so with that being said because of I don't know what theyve their interaction was but let's get back to the trees the pine trees on the bottom have not been affected by what I've done cuz I've not even got close to them okay pine trees in the bottom when they don't get sunlight his backside is worse than the side that I have actually by me cutting down the grass it's only doing a better thing it's not hurting the trees I understand that they're pine trees they have a smaller ball they're not like an oak tree so looking at that piece I have not affected the trees looking at the sound we're out working I'm not hanging around there making noise unless I was working in the garage to do the concrete work um Daryl himself has a skid and he has the backup on his skid so we hear that as well and there's other areas around cuz I've itched my head going why am I hearing it if it's only the Two of Us in that low spot I'm hearing other people using Machinery farther away from us so people might not always be hearing just me because they know I'm in the area cuz we're not there unless I was pouring and working in the yard looking at a lot of dumping stuff I'm only dumping like one ton of material until I get four or five ton to haul it out of there so it's one time it's not we're not there working we're someplace else working it's storage more than anything or a place to be able to CH you know work on things then we're looking at also um I apologize first I apologize to you guys because I seem to be really worked up because I feel like I'm the bad guy and I've tried to do things right I want to do things right and hopefully the gentleman that actually came out and can say that I've been very Forefront and being honest with what I'm trying to do I didn't even try to clean the place up cuz I wasn't understanding what we were doing so if I needed to I would have cleaned it up but it is the way they asked me permission to take pictures that day I said take pictures you know I have everything out of the barn cuz we're pouring concrete so looking at that um and Daryl has a really good friendship base if I needed to bring other people in to talk about this I would have this is new to me in how to handle some of these things so I've not tried to overdo anything or be Shady in fact Daryl operates a business out of his property and has multiple people coming into there I've never said anything about that because of we work together as neighbors okay he's got also trucks there running and skids now are they as big as my big dump truck no and can I watch at not having the tailgate hit yes I will gladly do that okay out of respect in fact it's it's not me that may have been doing it always either so I have to train my other two guys to make sure we're being respectful because I want to get along with my neighbor okay in fact if he wants darl you I'd take you out for dinner let's talk and get to know each other I'm willing to get along with all my neighbors sir anytime you want to call me on a live please do it because I'll talk hey John let's let's keep the conversation up here thank you I apologize it's just I want to get along for everybody yep and I and I appreciate you calling me back to that I want to get along I just want to say the invitation out there okay to all the neighbors and so if I needed a few neighbors to come to talk about this I would have brought them as well but I didn't know that that had to I thought it was I thought it was doing everything right so I'm asking you guys to you take a look at this um it was a big big purchase to buy something like this big with you know us as a family and so it wasn't a a Spur the moment or trying to get through something I went to the city I also found out it was zoned differently and then changed the month that I bought it for clarification he's regarding the land use related to the 2030 comp plan versus the 2040 comp plan yeah so when from agricultural to it went from medium density to low density in terms of land use designation but at no point industrial or commercial or anything like that correct okay correct but I'm looking at it changed the value that way too okay and so I want to get along with with these pieces but at the same time I got to keep feeding the family too and so and the reason I didn't move someplace else the Barn was already where it was I can't move something was already there that I was planning on trying just to keep fixing it up so that it could work for I don't have that kind of money just to go out and buy a building and put it up so but I'm here to answer any other your questions because now you've heard everybody you have any questions for me I don't have any questions for you I have things to discuss with my fellow Commissioners particularly regarding the actual um ordinance and things like that but I don't have any questions for you okay I've got a couple if I could start so in part of this conversation and discussion we heard that you do still have um an operate out of Maple Grove or did you and everything is going to move over here more things are moving over this way because of it's easier to to get in and out and then as well as my basically the legal description everything operates out of Maple Grove and the smaller units that I have do you store materials in Maple Grove do you store equipment in Maple Grove you have room for all of that no I don't have room for all of it okay so I need this location to be able to right now I mean how about dump trucks I can tell you where there's 15 dump trucks that don't have permits like one's right out here next to the building I want to be the one to you come up there's two of them on Main Street and so you know the dump truck's not offensive um and I'll put up a a fence um but I'm looking at us to answer your question I need to use this location I don't have another money any other money that goes to the mortgage yeah and and I'm just trying to understand that a little bit I think earlier you had mentioned you know we need a spot to park these trucks it's a good spot to park the trucks they're going to begin and end the day here right and and I understand needing some gravel because those trucks typically come with some gravel or leave with some gravel they got to go to a job site prepared I understand that so I'm just trying to just answer some of my questions and kind of fully understand most how you operate Grove how it operates over here and how these two you know complement each other or or whatnot so most of the gravel is picked up at the plants and brought to the customer 90% of it's used at the customer's location when I have a little extra instead of just throwing it away I bring it back put it in a pile so I can reuse it at another location trying to be green it's you're not it's not your primary source of material primary source of material a pit delivered to the customer's site want right I don't want to do it because it's not cost effective it eat time and money and it's just easier to pick it up on the way okay how many yards do you think you would store at a time just had to Ballpark it I need to have 15 yards on site like if you needed if you needed to say there was a number of an amount of material that you would like to have at this property how much is it well it wouldn't be like y 12 yards it would be in tons sure and so we're looking at probably about you know 35 to 50 ton that's a lot but yeah okay I mean it's you're asking me you're asking several dump truck truck loads we can answer it in that how many dump truck loads several 3 to 5 5 to 7 it would be it would be you know closer to four okay I'm just trying to give I don't want to how do you say under say something yeah and then when you hold me to it I'm just how do I say this I want to you know and and I probably won't ever have that much but I thought I better just you know because that's what I have there at the site right now sure and I'm just trying to answer some of my questions right you had mentioned hey we don't want to throw away some material bring it back so we don't waste it right I actually got blessed those are partial loads and we were talking four to I'm just trying to understand no I understand you know scale of right yeah I understand that but I just that's what I have there now because of of I had a customer that wanted some gone MH and so um and we probably have more just to let the people know um I probably have more action that's there as I'm trying to build the building put concrete in you're going to hear more of the skid then at that time because of we were building something now we're done it's going to be on the trailer most of the time because it's a pain to unload just to clarify your Maple Grove location is a homebased operation to yes correct okay thank you I didn't ask that but that's good clarification are you intending to sell that someday and just move all the dating or are you keeping both I guess that's where I was I have no intentions to um do anything at this time but if the opportunity came um I would look at moving into Dayton um and so it all I almost looked at putting a purchase agreement on the house just two doors down that was that little old house that just had a new septic put in and so not on Brockton on Brockton it was two two properties away but I just couldn't financially try to make that happen I haven't been on property but is there any opportunity for reconfiguration of the truck flow off your primary driveway to to stay further south or the property becomes very low and drops down and then becomes where it's actually away I wouldn't be able to use the garage then if we moved it over and that's why we're there is to utilize tools and be able to be out of the cold and work on things is to access on both ends of the um no we're we're 800 we're over from John's property that's the vineyard up above we're over 800 feet from his property and to build a road that deep would be quite expensive and and then to go over to the other spot it it goes over and the property keeps dropping off lower and lower and so I didn't pick that spot any other reason that there was already a barn there mhm the barn axis is on the North side um it's actually got doors on both ends on both ends okay drive through potentially I mean you can see where the where the big barn is how far I am back off John's property in fact you're probably just missing the picture of his house in his agricultural area can you zoom in at Allen Ariel can we just clarify exactly where you would intend to put the pile of dirts I think I know where it's at but I just want to make sure is that the one with the corre where's the one that has the corrected property line because I guess the question is which is the that one right there will work yeah yes thank you okay so it would be I don't know my north south but darl would be North it would be south of the building right there go up and point oh okay we're looking at right in here would be the areas right now I have one pile right here and here thank you and some of that is because of I moved some sand and that's a pile of sand that's there it's was on the property already and I included that in the number I was giving you so you know one thing I've been trying to do is so that it's not you know sitting there I'm trying to put um the trucks over on the side um and then with the fence there and me being lower you won't be able to see much in fact one of the words that was used by darl I didn't see how much you were doing there until I looked over the fence cuz in the summertime now it's winter so we have less um tall grass but the Tall Grass blocked a lot of it and that's the piece right there where I just found out the property lines were in the wrong places so on here for clarity the green line is the property line I believe yeah I have some things to discuss but I want it's about the ordinance itself so I have no question anything else for the the applicant all right the can pass thank you all right open for discussion so when you're reading the actual ordinance about home occupations the very first thing purpose so this on our packets is page 35 of the packets we were that's online it says the purpose of the subsection is to maintain the character and integrity of residential areas to prevent competition with commercial districts to encourage telecommuting and to provide a means to the establishment of special specific standards and procedures by which home occupations can be conducted in residential neighborhoods without jeopardizing the health safety and general Weare welfare of this sty neighborhood I think one of the big things here for me is to prevent competition with commercial districts districts are are taxed differently residential districts egg districts and commercial industrial districts are taxed differently for a reason because when you're running a business and particularly things like giant dump trucks you're putting more strain and wear and tear on our roads and our other infrastructure that has to be paid for and it's not fair to ask someone who just has a house and is coming in and out of their house occasionally to pay the same tax burden is someone who's running giant you know huge dump trucks on the same roads significantly so first and foremost I think right there I'm done like I read that and I'm done I keep going going down further to subsection 3 General Provisions all home occupations shall be clearly incidental and secondary to the residential use of the premises should not change the residential character thereof and shall result in no incompatibility or disturbance to the surrounding residential uses again bam we're out this is purposely first and foremost purchased to run a business out of living there is clearly secondary and it is absolutely disturbing the surrounding residential uses so again bam I'm done um then no uh number four no home occupation shall involve the use of equipment other than that customarily found in a residential dwelling I think we can all say giant dump trucks are not typically found in residential areas they're also not typically found in egg areas lastly um my other big one number nine no home occupation will shall generate traffic by customers employees deliveries Etc to and from trips the dwelling that is not characterist characteristic of the neighborhood and shall not exceed eight trips per day by any combination there is no way you're having employees come in pick up giant Vehicles leave come back drop off giant vehicles and leave and be under eight trips you're just not going to so by all the rules this doesn't qualify even if none of the neighbors had come to speak had like not one single person come to speak it w't qualify based on these rules so my vote is no so I I had a similar thought as you with with that as I started to go through I was like well gez this home occupation seem to be catered towards businesses that are inside the dwelling so then I dug into the code just a little bit more and you'll see um right underneath purpose and and home business categories there's two of them so there's the administrative home occupations and then the home extended businesses and the home extended businesses are those home occupations that typically involve more significant element of commercial type activity that may have a minimal effect on the surrounding neighbors so I I do think the packet might be a little bit confusing in that a a lot of the um content that staff has provided there is talking about that home occupation and and a lot of the things that you had had identified and and very clearly and understandably have an objection to I think they do fall under the home occupation but am I correct in that this is a home extended business application so then we we need to jump down to some of those other criteria that are below those things in the packet on page but subsection three is all home occupations subsection four gets into the differences between the two right if there were differences between the two then all of those things need to be moved down into subsection 4 to distinguish between the two differences the fact that it is its own thing that says all home occupations implies that it affects all of them not just the two different characterizations in which case this needs to be updated in the future if that is in fact the case yeah I I don't I don't honestly know how to interpret it myself well and and and not to play Devil's Advocate but this job this this location of this as it relates to number nine and the the generating traffic let's be honest here this is on Brockton it's not this type of traffic on Brockton is well seen on Brockton it's no different than Alo steel down down uh further down closer to 81 it's a lot different if this were in Thicket Hills or in Sundance Woods right the the eight trips a day here does not concern me from that perspective because of the road it's off of there's other things that concern me don't get me wrong but not that one that one does not apply to to make my argument here um so just to counter your your one point there so my take on this and I'm not going to get into the conditions until I understand if we even need to um but I'm with Sarah from a standpoint that I've kind of been against these intense home extended businesses in general and I think that the intensity is the key word here I have a lot of sympathy for someone trying to run his business because obviously it's way more affordable to do it audio property than somewhere else so I get it I have a lot of Sympathy for the neighbors that have to deal with it but I don't try to make these decisions based upon the parties involved because there's always emotions and I'm pretty consistent even the one on 117th I was against um it's just there's going to be disruptions and impacts to neighboring Residential Properties you just know if fans how buts about it and I get it there's plenty of these in Dayton um but it's going to impact them it's going to affect their value when they go to sell it you know what maybe and I guess the other question is with rural character now I grew up in a pretty rural area and uh there's a lot of construction businesses everywhere in Rural America there really is so it's not like it's just but it some people kind of equate rural to the Agricultural and Hobby Farms and more and more Hobby Farms are going to become this if we continue to allow it that's a choice that ultimately the whoever's on the council is going to have to make but that is going to happen because there's probably more buyers out there for a commercial homebased business than there are for continuing Hobby Farms um so in general it's just more just the consistency I I just think that this is too intensive a use with the size of the dump trucks um that's going above the code on top of it and and the the noise issue you just can't get around it now a less intense business like it doesn't mean he can't maybe run parts of his business out of there like his garage with his truck um but The Dumping of materials storing of materials um and it doesn't help I have a bad taste because I know too many I'm not saying that this appc do it I have a too many applicants in the industries with heavy machinery have wrecked it for others by burying stuff they shouldn't bury I don't expect staff to be out there policing this and that's just another reason why I'm just not in favor of having heavy equipment in these residential sites but again it doesn't mean I'm I'm against him using his shop for stuff like his trucks and stuff like that but I would be against the outdoor storage of material the ordinance does allow properties over 2.5 acres to have outdoor storage if it's properly screened by interm use perit and it doesn't impact the value of other properties and I think noise and that kind of stuff is going to do it yeah yeah it's it's tough one because I these properties are lend themselves to this type of use people seek these out for the purpose and when you got a big barn like that it screams business you know some something right um I worked Landscaping when I was younger we ran the company or the companies ran out of a residential area we showed up in the morning we loaded up the truck and we left by 8:00 a.m. we came back at 56 p.m. put everything away half hour later we were gone we weren't there at all during the day I get the feeling that that's the kind of business that John is ultimately trying to run here is that a hazard yeah I mean or a nuisance yes um I hear I live by the fire station I hear the fire trucks off and on is it a nuisance to me yeah but it's a part of living near the fire station um I think you know there's lots of trucks on Brockton I I don't know I'm I'm more on the fence on this one I I think that um I I I think there are things in the code that do allow this but I think there are things in the code that clearly don't allow it too as you pointed out Sarah and I respect that well the size of the vehicles is another thing too Ian if we're going to allow it we need to consider amending the code we can't just keep allowing stuff and putting people like ourselves in the position where we have to make decisions like this it should be in the Cod if we're going to low it I wish there was a way to get things farther away from that property line but I understand topography and might be prohibitive to that but it doesn't stop sound necessarily but at least the site and Nick do you have a I mean from what I'm hearing we've got one on the fence we got two nose uh I I would be firmly on the fence for the reason that I think I don't think the code is very helpful here in in specifically and and if we could just take some time to take a look at that quick in that and maybe staff can help me you know sometimes word choices are extremely deliberate sometimes they're halfhazard sometimes capitalizations are important when I read subdivision 2 on page 35 of the packet home businesses shall fall into two categories administrative home occupations are those and a capitalized home occupations that have no effect on the surrounding neighborhood home extended businesses are those again capitalized home occupations that typically involve more significant element of commercial type activity that might have a minimal effect on the surrounding neighbors so then in subdivision 3 they go through all home occupations to me and I think what Sarah would argue is that covers both one and two administrative home occupations and home extended businesses because again home extended businesses says are those home occupations um right and then they go through here and I think where it's a little bit confusing for me or where I struggle with that a lot of these items um 1 through 14 feel more home occupation as in subdivision 2 item one based right they um no home occupation uh shall require internal external alterations or involve construction Fe feates not customarily found in dwellings you know and you can even see in the packet that staff struggled with that a little bit cuz some of those were na some of were not applicable um because the home occupation isn't occurring inside the house but then you start to get into the ones that are the home extended businesses that seem to apply a little bit more so um good example is all home occupations should not change the residential character thereof and shall result in no incompatibility or disturbance the surrounding residential areas no home occupation shall involve the use of equipment other than that customarily found in a residential dwelling you know yeah there are skies on S sites dump trucks um you know I I think you could argue well no but but again if if the intent there for that section is kind of an internal home occupation business that makes sense right you don't need a semi to run a sewing company inside your house just complete hypotheticals no home occupation shall be visible from the outside of the dwelling well quite frankly all of this home occupation is visible from the outside of the dwelling just the nature of this home occupation so I really really struggle with the code in that regard um I just you know and no home occupation shall produce light glare noise odor vibration and staff's comment is other than standard maneuvering around the accessory structure and utilizing a skid steer to load material well sure um but is that I mean that's kind of an intense use um that does produce light glare noise odor vibration all of that stuff but in a home extended business makes a little bit more sense and so the the contradiction of this code is terribly written struggles you if you read subdivision two part two which you were just talking about right so you read the first sentence the second sentence says which is number two um so this is for the home extended businesses the accessory use may be allowed if the use meets all the criteria of subdivisions three and 42 so you have to meet all of three MH and you can't like it's set up to be contradictory like this code is garbage and needs to be fixed um but that leaves us here which is we have to deal with the code we've got right now not your s we got to fix this because it clearly contradicts itself I think we got to figure out what the intent of it really is right I mean I think it I think the codee's trying to understand that there's multiple types of businesses that could be used there's one that's primarily internal to the dwelling and there's some that might be outside of the dwelling and and I think it takes an attempt at Trying to minimize the nuisance and disturbance on some of those home extended businesses uh I don't know that necessarily does a great job and sometimes it does take applications like this for codes to get fixed right you got you got to wrestle with them um but and apologies the people who get caught in AC Crosshair is when we realize that our code is garbage sorry that not your fault and with this one we got to wrestle it that and that that is kind of our job to provide a recommendation to council with staff's help and some interpretations if you can and we'll wrestle with it and do the best we can but I go back to we have Zoning for a reason and there's a reason why we have commercial and Industrial zoned areas because we have recognized that those are not appropriate by residential homes and also they get taxed differently because they put different burdens on the city and the county and the state that's why you pay higher taxes so I appreciate that yes lots of people are breaking the rules that doesn't mean that we let other PE like I can't say when I get pulled over well officer all those other people were also speeding so therefore you can't give me a ticket because you didn't give all of them a ticket I tried that I know you can did it work no yeah see it doesn't that can't be how we base our rules is other people are breaking the rules too so you can't come down on me that like sorry um we'll do a better job but um but the point of the home occupation option is to allow those other uses within residential areas that don't fit right like he can't afford to build something in a commercial area and have a house and run his business is what he's saying right so but is that the city's responsibility I think the bigger part of the code I'm hung up on is the size of the vehicles and the weight and I get it that there's other people in violation but that's our code and so we need to either amend our code or that's why this is a no-o for me with the two dump trucks that's our code three dump trucks two two and then a bigger one Mr chair if commiss two items I want to add uh with conditional use permits and interm use permits these are permitted uses with conditions and the idea of the conditions is to try to mitigate the nuisances whatever there so you know in this case we're we're more talking about noise and visual nuisance so I want to kind of dwell on that um the the other thing uh in the code so we have a list of items um when you get into I believe it's subdivision three item J so goes a b c and so on gets down to J uh as far as the conditions of approval uh J states that the city council may allow home occupations to operate in excess of the provisions in the section provided the city has reasonable Assurance due to due to the nature of the home occupation or through mitigation measures that the home occupation will not adversely impact neighboring Properties or become a nuisance so the point I want to make you know especially for Sarah is you have all these items of you know you can't do this this and that but depending on you know but we can ignore all of them if we want to correct City Cil can so the point that I want to make we have many of these businesses all over the city some of them are permitted many of them are not um most of these how we know about them is through uh deance complaints which is similar to this similar to several of the the IEPs that we've had for home occupations I I can't think of one that's come in preemptively so they've all been based on nuisance complaints and that's the hard part because I think we can all agree that what's a nuisance to one of us is not a nuisance to the next and yeah it's just it's sub very subjective so I think in all fairness I guess in all fairness to not only the applicant but also you know knowing that we have to revise the code I'm wondering if we walk line by line through the findings of the resolution not saying that we're proposing it but if we were to propo if we were to approve it what what that finding would have to be for each one of us to make it work does that make sense is it the findings or the conditions too because I think conditions would be useful not only let's just say we let's just say we deny it the council still might approve it so they might appreciate our feedback on the conditions I mean do we want want to go through the findings as well cuz that seems to be where the code is pulling from and that's why I was starting there so this I think it's an okay to go through it is go to the resolution and the findings of fact and Y try to go through the findings of fact and and then if we do Lane on denial we will probably have a pretty good direction for staff um because of it's it's one way to go about it there's a lot of subjectivity but we can all share our opinions on it so so finding one the property the proposed use is consistent with Comprehensive plan and purpos of the underlying zoning District so it's it's the finding is that it's an A1 Property it's larger than 2 and a half acres the property is eligible to apply for the iup M uh agreed consistent with the comp plan is the only issue where it's not consistent but whatever it's it's consistent with the code because we have the iup option for our home extended business the comprehensive plan is guided for low density residential this would absolutely not be allowed there so sir your argument is that this is more of an industrial use yes absolutely I don't think anyone could argue with me on that one I will just Note One policy item related to the comprehensive plan that I found in there was that the promotion of interm use permits for home extended business to promote business growth within the city of Dayton is an identified policy in the comprehensive plan in residential areas more so just the policy in general for interim use permits for home extended business which occur in residential districts right a home extended business would only exist in residential agricultural I suppose but right not not commercial right not an industrial you know if if it wasn't in commercial industrial and we'd probably be okay with it well yeah there' be no conversation all right so number two proposed the proposed use will not substantially diminish or impair property values within the immediate vicinity of the property the finding that the the city had is not anticipated the use will substantially diminish or impair property values within the immediate vicinity of the subject property I just for clarity we always struggle with this yeah understood yeah what's substantially 10% 5% so I mean it impact but it is and I I'm just going to say you know there's buyers that get all turned on or turned off by many different things so whether it's uh what the neighbor is or the home color it it's very subjective it's difficult to prove I think it is things that the conditions can help mitigate as well right so if this you know that that is really where those conditions try to help turn those screws help mitigate it I think you'll be able to argue I think all five of us will be able to argue both sides of that one I mean so can we agree that this is just the findings can we agree that conditions can help to diminish um property orate property nuanes and nuisances yeah I think one of the challenges with this one and are we going to are we going to find conditions that can do that I don't know I don't think we could but that's it's the enforcement of the conditions too but that's a completely different ball of wax on it so a good example for this one and part of the reason why I asked how much material would you want um is can we Define a specific area for where material is stored can we demarcate it like they do at landscape companies with those concrete bunkers right it it kind of has a defined size it's got a defined area when it's full it's full yeah you could probably overdo it but it really helps provide the framework for we're not going to have 10 dump trucks worth of gravel here cuz then we got to get 10 dump trucks of gravel out you know um it understanding from the applicant is hey we get done with a job we got a little bit of access gravel we don't want to send it back to the pit we already paid for it understandable let's bring it back let's dump it hopefully let's go use that on the next job that it's applicable for um try to keep that pile as low as possible right it's already bought and paid for material we don't need to be you know that I think that's where you can mitigate where significant storage of materials could have an impact on the adjacent properties and and if we can help mitigate the um amount of stored materials mitigate where it is give it a designated area that could help that's just one example I'm more concerned about the noise and the potential like hobby Farm boost next door too so so let's that I mean and that's where two and three you know the property value the they they complement each other a little bit in that way but I think that falls under three more a little bit because it's more talking number three is more talking about persons I'm talking about even so I've worked on a few branches or horse farms in Inver gr Heights and one of them relocated when development happened because their horses were very sensitive to loud noises and stuff like that and if we want to see a hobby Farm maybe move in next door when The Neighbor sells this property maybe that's a a no-go for a hobby Farm person I have no idea I would not put my horses next to an industrial asphalt concrete uh business keep in mind he's not doing it there he's just dumping but all the equipment is there it's a commercial use not industrial they're not they're not producing manufacturing stuff it's a it's a business and you know it's just an example because there could be other horses that you know are used to it because there's other there's a lot of farms where they have a lot of machinery and skider running around um but in this case they had they had racing horses so they were more sensitive to it they're more sensitive to everything and if I could add just for a matter Mr chair members of the Planning Commission I if I could add just for a matter of perspective while you go through these findings this uh draft resolution was a draft uh written in the form of an approval so understood yeah so I just wanted to make sure that that was clear that uh there are also opportunities for findings as you guys are going through for denial and um staff would be prepared to present either and I think moving forward I think both should be there it's not really appropriate for staff to kind of come through and preemptively decide that we're going to approve something without hearing from the public or having any of the conversation if we did that we would be in a lot of trouble understood I think it would be tough for staff to provide a resolution of both approval and denial right there you've got it in the packet it it I staff's kind of all around kind of struggle with this cuz if you think about kind of how we're going through we're going through it and we're like all right let's test it approve you know yes no yes no yes no we'll test it um I I think I would Gander that this is provided to be kind of a tool and give us some content to deliberate and tweak and say we disagree with that staff you're wrong on that one we disagree with it let's change that um type of deal I I don't I definitely don't think there's any ill intent with that I understand the Optics I think the best thing would be to change the way it's listed on the agenda sure um and you know then we can help deliberate the facts and but staff we don't see it that way um but I think having both is troublesome so on two and three can can we agree at least in concept that conditions um may may be able to may be able to mitigate mitigate prop detrimental impacts MH just just to kind of move down we don't have to subjective yeah we don't have to come to an agreement what those conditions are right now um item four proposed use will not impede the normal and orderly development of surrounding property it's post 2050 comp five year I I think we're okay with that one yeah uh proposed use will not create an undue burden on Parks schools streets public facilities utilities that serve the area I I get your under under the condition this is Rockton is a county road so I so not our problem I don't know County won't fix our other stuff so should we look out for them there I I don't know I'm joking with that comment but trucks on that road there's other trucks on that road was my point and I don't think the use it seems like as you get further north on Brockton I'm not the truck traffic is much further south on Brockton I mean maybe some cut through and most parts of Brockton are also zoned differently yeah I'm just saying that we keep saying there's a lot of truck activity on Brockton I think it's more focused on the southern part of but I don't know for certain this area is not at capacity for the transportation Network right no burden on Parks I think it's got no nothing to do it nothing with schools streets or public facilities I think you can make that argument um you know eight trucks whatever with eight trips total three of them B trucks you know three trips in three trips out on Brockton 16 trips extra is probably not that much of a burden on Brockton so I I think we can agree to that One MH um the proposed use is adequately screened could be it's it's the finding is from the public RightWay uh and then it says conditions of for additional screening will be needed to be provided to Jon properties I think that the way it's written is okay as it's conditional the one question I have and I'm just looking at the too but and John I I think it was John Baron's that left but is he looking from his property is he looking into do it I can't see there's Woods in between both of us there is Woods in between both of you okay okay and that's with the trees not having um item seven proposed use will not create nuisance including but not limited to order noise vibration visual I I think we all agree that there's there's excess noise it may be able to be mitigated um noise is very hard to mitigate I think you can mitigate the times better than what we've currently suggested you can try to mitigate the activity that creates the noise that's and that's kind of where I was going time frame we can't but we can't say no banging of the gate I mean we could don't get me wrong right um but it bangs staff is in there to hear it the new guy let a bang and that's that's the hardest part with this is you know some of these are are very difficult in force and it does require um a user with with the best intent and respect for their neighbors um and it can be revoked if if we find evidence that it's not being used in the manner I would say it's probably hard to do but so the item eight the proposed use will provide adequate parking and loading spaces All Storage on site is in compliance with this subsection and then the finding is the proposed iup will provide adequate parking on their site but it doesn't talk about storage and and I I struggle with this one and I think it's I think it's pretty straightforward I think Nick you brought it up of you know if as this comes forward to the the city council as it will because we're a recommending body we're not here to approve or deny um we're a recommending body I think it'd be we've done it in the past on this on this I would say maybe work with staff to identify where your trucks are going to be parked on the aerial where your storage is going to be that size types of thing that's where I would be on this one um yeah I I agree in in this particular item when I look at the aerial of the site that's being used um you know it's probably somebody that is still getting to understand their site and figure out how to use it but it seems halfhazard in where things are placed where things are parked I looked at different versions of Aerials uh Google Maps has a different one with trailers parked over here and then a different one has them over there I think it would be a benefit to the application as a whole to designate a parking and storage area um you know if we're just parking trailers and the same trailers and parking the same trucks and storing the same material we should be able to identify where that should occur and I think some consistency for the site would be very helpful um in mitigating some of those other I'll call them softer findings of things that are um you could be argued either way and and I guess just to know for staff I believe we did have an iup uh within the last couple months for a home extended B use business that we did did ask for a site plan on as part of our so just kind of going forward it it might be good sure just to to make sure if we're doing outdoor outdoor things that yeah they provide some all it has to be is a sketch on an aerial you know you don't have to hire an engineer I'd love it if you would but and your phone number is Eng not me not me I I don't do s plans but no I I I think it just it helps put some validity behind the application um and not saying that that this is not it's just it helps reassure neighbors where things are going to go and that kind of thing and it helps too with enforcement right if if there's a condition the trucks are parked in the truck storage area identified on the site plan right here and you go there and be like they're parked in the back and they're parked in the front they're parked everywhere well you're in you're in violation of that you know you've got gravel everywhere you got four different piles we we said it needed to be in this storage area whether it's demarcated with bunkers or not it needs to be in this area um I think that helps and it helps staff have tangible things should they get complaints from the adjacent neighbors of not just having he said she said and actually having things that they can document U CU we did hear that the intent of the applicant is to be a good neighbor right so I mean if if that's the case and um we can help to try to provide recommendations to council that would mitigate item n proposed use will protect sensitive natural features staff calls out a wetland uh that is more than 100 ft away I do want to make a comment about the pine trees pine trees don't have tap Roots they tend to be horizontal and very surface level Roots so absolutely like but are though so yeah they if they're right on the edge of the property and you've got trucks heavy trucks driving over them you're going to kill all those pine trees um the question question that is is that a sensitive natural feature it's your neighbors sensitive natural feature that they put time and money and effort into planting so and I understand that but if if my neighbor's tree grows over my property line and I want to I want to trim it like the power company does I can do that there's a lot of case law on that yeah so I that one's a hard one yeah I mean it's not maybe I just wanted to clarify that because the comment was made and I just want to clarify that actually yes it will impact the pine trees so because they do not have the same root system as other trees well I think that's fair we've in previous areas here we said well that's kind of ambiguous it could mean this sensitive natural features could be ambiguous and could mean a pine tree it absolutely could I I I wouldn't argue that I don't know if that's the intent but it certainly could be argued and then uh item 10 is conditions so if we read through the conditions just just the way they're written um a six- foot fence shall be installed on the North property line for improved screening from adjacent residential uses such fence shall extend from the Western Le accessory building East to the end of the iup related area roughly 200 ft I think having that identified would be helpful I think having the site plan with that fence on it would be really helpful um identifying an iup related area y you know would be helpful yeah I think we should identify more than just an opaque fence too because they could put up metal steel panels correct well Prov and I'm saying like metal steel panels from Menards not like well it would have to be consistent with the fencing ordinance and uh what type of materials are allowed per that ordinance um if you're referring to like a metal siding type yeah I just know on the the iup that we approved for the outdoor storage that's what they put up sure was just metal panels that you put on pob bar building that's what they put up Y and I don't think that that's doing any justice to any neighbor in a residential neighborhood if they put something like that up correct that's what I mean by specifying a little more specifically go wood vents whatever sure and I think we can do that in our recommendations if you're prepared to just add six clarify you know what you would be happy with but I get what you're I think that I know where my vote stands already but I'm all for making good conditions to make if the council chooses to allow this to make sure that it has the least amount of impact possible so I'm willing to work on well absolutely even if you vote no and there's you know three yeses we we should have your help three three yeses and the council goes the opposite way correct just so the applicant knows too I mean we should have everybody in in helping with the conditions regardless what side of the vote they'd be on one thing I would one of the reasons why I would agree we need to be a little bit clear on the six foot the fence is because this isn't an agricultural Zone like it is currently zoned egg and they have different fence rules than residential for Farm fence correct but uh related to fences permitted by the zoning ordinance uh 6 feet is the maximum in residential and agriculture districts and in commercial and Industrial it can go up to eight okay um so that was just maintaining consistency with what is normally allowed but if from like a mitigation standpoint a taller heftier fence would like is going to absorb noise more than metal which might just amplify your already existing noise issues right I don't think any fence is going to help with the noise no no but I'm trying I'm trying to participate in this thank you are we tackling these conditions now as if we're going to have I might by yeah that's kind of what my intent was what do we or what and then what do we need to add is there anything to the fence that we need to add some so a non metalic I don't know what the right answer is I just don't want you know I think it should be metal wood or vinyl there you go the architect there you go I like it and defense permit application is always reviewed against the code standard so if the material isn't consistent it would not be approved okay good anything else on the fence nope no um just the request for it to be on a site plan so that Council can see the exact extent of it with the interim use permit related area identify we literally have almost Define that term in condition one it doesn't really mean a whole lot so then we got existing stored item two condition to existing stored items in connection with the iup to be relocated away from the north property line all iup related materials are required to be stored no more than 100 ft from adjacent homes I think think we should have a designated area I think the site plan would Define that I think I would be okay if if we had uh the 100 ft is is the minimum and what the designated storage bul and I know the applicant suggest or made it reference that he might be able to do it on the self side of the build building for storing their materials I think that would be more preferred than where he is now just cuz it's getting further and further away from the residential use there is a topography change there so I'm assuming you can still make it work but and then add the site plan in there do you want to add that it should be on the South Side generally yeah say generally on the South Side as far south as he can push it I think as identified on the site plan and then working with staff to try to ident identify that in a southernly location on the southern side of that the further salt you go though there is a pocket though where the neighbor that's no longer here is going to be able to see it because of the topography he's going to be staring right down the hill at it if you go too far Sol so keep it closer to the building MH again I plan is helpful yep um home extended business equipment and materials be stored on site so not visible from Brockton Lane I think that one's good as yeah vehicle equipment and operations maintenance use shall not occur on site outside of 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. I'd put that up closer to like 8:00 p.m. just again it's a residential I mean you got people you got kids going to bed I'd say I mean I'm I mean I would say even earlier okay awesome meaning business hours meaning 5:00 p.m. I would say that it'd be Monday through Friday I mean I'm kind of going too extreme here so you guys can shed your light but if you're going to in a residential area I'd be Monday through Friday Y and I think we can okay to limit it to outdoor use like if he's working in a shop whatever it's more the outdoor use and of Machinery that I'm cared about and so I would be suggesting something closer to you know 700 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. could we Define the use a little bit more clearly right middle of middle of summer doesn't get dark till 9: he's pouring concrete till 9: finishing the concrete till 9: driving so he might not be able to dump truck that's exct you can still drive his truck in and park it drive it park it right don't dump don't run the skdy don't load the equipment onto a trailer you know load the equipment that you have on the trailer on the site that you're coming from park it do all those things in the morning during normal operational hours not saying you you know it's it's past 5 you can't park the dump truck here anymore I don't know what we necessarily yeah I mean like shifting and moving of materials around that he's piling up is where I was really getting no dumping or loading outside yeah outside of s yeah no dumping materials no dumping loading or staging I think that's kind of limiting for a construction company but he's also choosing to operate in a not a con you know industrial district the same rules go my neighbor that's working as well with his skit does he have an IEP no he's working in a business without done i' only ask the same for my neighbor it is asking so I would I would I would say I need it needs to be six days a week we have to we have to acknowledge the fact that he's going to be doing business on Saturday yeah I would I would acknowledge the fact that we're doing business on Saturdays I would acknowledge the fact that I think where where I am on the the outside operations I don't mind moving the small skid moving stuff around it's the it's the The Dumping of material after a certain time backing up of truck backing up of large trucks um currently we're just discussing this this will go to council we're not going to open it up to public comment anymore thank you so um com the so item five the use and store well I guess hours of operation I don't know if we landed on that well it's well both so I think I've heard Monday through Friday and Monday through Saturday I guess that that's the first question is there oppos my recommendation is I think it's got to be Monday through Saturday if this were to happen I think you have I'm still on Monday through Friday but I'm Monday through Friday but again ultimately it's council's decision we're just advising so they'll know that we're split on that which is fine I'm Monday through I'm I'm Monday through Saturday I get why the business needs it Monday through Saturday totally get that and then the question on timing from 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. I'm going to say versus uh you know I'm just going to say dust to do I'm going to put I'm going to go out on a limb here the applicant put his hours in his application I'm going to say 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. he put those in there that's the hours he needs I agree if we're going to if we're going to make a condition we can restrict it from what the ordinance is I think we're not mitigating the noise issue and this just goes for all uses across datting we're not mitigating the noise issue that it might put on residents when they're right next door I even think of the use on 17th if I were those neighbors and they didn't come to that meeting I would be more upset because of that activity and the outdoor storage and everything that was approved because I don't longer get to join my home yeah my home's going to change its use sometime in the future but I can't enjoy it today and what if I want to sell it the next user is going to be dealing with it too when you go to sell your home so to me that's what these mitigation issues are all trying to solve is is these issues and we can't be trying to solve him having a successful business we're trying to mitigate the impact he has on the neighbor uses not his having a successful business and and I think the argument the argument I have here with that Aon is is the neighboring properties are allowed to have skid steers they're allowed to to move them around they're allowed to to have a a a fifth wheel for an Agricultural business not a bus that's what's allowed in A1 so again we're talking two different things here with uses I mean it's just it's just different different type of machinery and it's daily use versus occasional use some Farms areti da some but I get where you're going Peter and I don't I would it bug me no but with the code I mean my neighbor I live in a residential neighborhood where John lives and I have a neighbor that has a commercial business I hear it all the time does it bug me not necessarily what do I hear the heavy machinery and he has a tree company I mean it's you you hear more this time of year when the leaves drop but is at the end of the world no but if that's what we're trying to mitigate in noise because that's what our code says we're not we're we're working opposite by thinking about what he needs for his business to be successful we're working in the wrong direction where I'm struggling with this one and and this is this is strictly based on WE allow a skid steer we allow we allow uh someone to have a yep a track and they're allowed to use it at any operation anytime the same piece of equipment can be used for construction you just change the bucket to a fork or whatever right and or maybe you're using the bucket for both and we're dictating when it can and cannot be used on a neighboring property in A1 if this weren't our district surrounding it I get your point we allow that type of equipment in A1 or A3 or whatever this is the agricultural uses that's that's the struggle I have with especially with the skid steer I get the backing up or the the banging of the truck because that's a little different that's not typical the a that's not typical the A1 but a skid steer is that's fair so types of equipment do matter here and I think yeah I also think what you're doing with the skid steer matters too right if you're using the skid steer to load a dump truck that's not A1 activity either but if you're moving if he dumps his pile and then he's moving it from the where he dumped it into a into a hopper or a I forgot what you call them but the storage bin call it a bin that's what they call them when you go to company bin to for rock yeah yeah um I think one of the challenges though is to recognize a lot of like the A1 the big farms that are running these kind of equipment that are usually on much bigger acreage like their neighbors are not this close right like that's part of where this also becomes challenging because a lot of our A1 Parcels are getting smaller and smaller and smaller like and it's way different when you have a 200 Acre Farm and you're doing all this stuff and literally your next neighbor is over a mile away from you like that's not the same as your next neighbor is less than 100 feet from you right so I appreciate that yes traditional farming might be very loud but there's also not a lot of people doing traditional farming on 9 Acres with that kind of equipment so and this is someone who would desperately like to get a get steer if I could ever afford it which I'll never be able to but so so I appreciate what you're saying and um but like again it goes back to like it is not the city's responsibility to make sure someone's business is successful like that's not our job um our job is to it is in the commercial in the commercial District but not in these districts should be concerned um and this should be about mitigating effects to the neighbors and that should be our priority um I I do agree with that very firmly this is we're trying to propose and a business to operate where businesses don't typically operate so we should try to mitigate the effects of that the code recognizes and City recognizes there is a benefit to potentially allowing a home extended business and those naturally occur in areas where they don't typically occur and we should I that should be our goal not maximize the operation of this company because if that's the case there are commercial districts for them to go to um but instead rather mitigate the effects to the surrounding community but we have to do so reasonably yeah agreed um just to summarize so I still have Monday through Saturday 7:00 a.m. to 8 p.m. can we just take a quick straw poll so you can get the condition I mean if three are one way and two are the other we done with that condition move on yeah I like the suggestion of let's use the hours that are in his application no he may want to change his mind on that but it it which is they reasonable Monday through Saturday 7 to8 that the you3 are on board with that I'm good with that all right uh the use and storage of large dump trucks on site shall be limited to two and one one ton dump truck any request for additional Vehicles shall be reviewed and considered through an iup amendment I think that's the correct semi yes or no period so I don't think there's anything I change if the council wants to prove it that's is what it is if for me on that one I think this is and at the intent of Home extended business let allow somebody to operate on a little bit smaller scale than they would maybe be able to do in a commercial District if you get to the point where you need to double or triple that you a come back for an inter amuse permit we can see how things have been if things have been great and all of these neighbors that are not happy with it now come and say hey it's actually been great he's been a great neighbor this is working we will hear um and and be able to consider whether or not we are future Planning Commission and then Council whether or not we would Amendment or it's probably time for this year to be in a commercial area so I I like the way that one's written you know it doesn't allow much expansion from what he's got right now but do you like the and I think what Darren's saying is the actual Vehicles themselves yeah which that's the yes or no vote I mean I get that the council can kind of has a trump card when it comes to these home extended businesses I get the code says something but if we're going to keep using the trump card my point was is we need to change our code so the code and you got to correct me would allow uh I'm going to refer to as small and large so one small truck and one large truck the council can approve more so what he's asking for is two large trucks and one small truck which is kind of to me the Crux of the yes or no with the whole application so if you're going to say yes you might as well let him do what he wants to do as far as a number I say you can only do one truck and approve it what's the point the the difference between small and large is 18 ,000 lb and and so I'm thinking about this and I'm going back to my comment I made earlier uh when Sarah when you were reading through the conditions you know I think the intent of the code was to come off of residential streets or or you know we're coming off Brockton here the intent of the code was not it's it's about the size of the vehicle and the the frontage road that they're on or the neighboring neighborhood that they have to get through to get in there and and and it wasn't accounting for you know Brockton Fernbrook North and South Diamond Lake I would say that you're just kind of speculating though because this code's been around forever and Dayton's you know has a lot of this stuff so I mean whether that's really what was meant or not with the code I don't know it's interpretting well that's that's that's way speculating on how well no that's how how it was made when they wrote it that's how I would interpret interpret that that part of the code and I don't have personally I don't have a problem with the the size of the trucks um it gets back to the number and I'm fine with how it's written yeah I think I'm fine with how it's written I mean if it gets approved I'm fine with how it's written okay all right uh vehicle trips to and from property directly associated with the home extended business shall be limited to 8 per day any I'm concerned about the enforcement side of it if you can't do it I mean who knows maybe with technology that'll be easier to enforce and people realize someday but I don't think we have it yet and just for clarification for home extended businesses that is the code standard it would have been a standard condition so that was kind of why the eight was it wasn't just picked out of out of nowhere if if it's in the code why we have it as a condition I guess is my question oh just to reiterate some of these things that uh could be could be I think we need to strike it if it's already if it's already in the code and we're not changing it I get I get your point but we spend a lot of time deliberating and debating on things that may not matter then mhm also I mean it would provide an opportunity to say okay this this is what would be allowed to the maximum is there any reason that a condition of approval would need be needed to lessen that I'm not sure they're going to it's eight trips per day and so you already have three trucks and so them coming in and out is that not six trips or and then that's not even coming your employees showing up so you're pushing your eight you've already passed this unless all your employees happen to carpool which so like you're already like on day one going to violate this by allowing three trucks so something keep in mind a lot of the employees live in the house some of the employees live in the house some of them well I wouldn't go all yeah I mean you have a good point there are two large trucks that you may want to use one small one that's six you've got one employee that can go there and back that's it that's it I mean there's that's in my mind unrealistic for a business it's the definition of a trip arriving is one leaving is one trip two yeah yeah trip one trip two yeah it's not round trip sure either way I think we got to strike it and if it gets approved by Cil again they're using the trump card with all the other conditions anyway so I don't think we need to get hung up on it but it needs to be 12 to align with the three trucks not necessarily at a maximum at a maximum yeah maybe but right I guess my point is that's not going to be eight and to pretend it is is is unrealistic and that needs to be acknowledged yeah that's why I'm suggesting it should be 12 then to line with three trucks three people coming three people leaving twice a day yeah you want to change it to 12 that's more realistic is that now considered a variance though because we're putting something as a condition no because we still have item J mhm so not not on the screen here but where the council can essentially allow some something that exceeds what the five is already breaking the rules but also doesn't allow the applicant to come in the middle of the day dumb something and then go that's it which is helpful you know for the nuisance period part of it as well right if it's we go there we grab the trucks we get out of there we go do a job come back we're done yep type deal that is that is a way for some enforcement potentially unless it's AF that lives on the property mhm one trip is just leaving anyway let's continue all right uh item seven iup shall be valid for 5 years I think I'm I'm just going to speak on on my opinion I'll let you guys chime in I think we should change this to two years he's in operation right now he's got a chance to clean it up and come back and reapply he's got neighbors that are upset um he we've had other businesses home businesses that have come in and we very similar in operation maybe not as loud and neighbors didn't complain but they were running for years I'd like to change it to two or three I'm I'd be somewhere around I can get behind that I mean he because he already made a substantial investment in the property with the concrete in the shop I think I'm okay with that but otherwise if we were approving this I usually would be doing five minimum to justify the investment that need but already did it so hopefully yeah I'd be fine with that as well i' so two or three I don't have a strong opinion either yeah I mean I was I was thinking about that as I said maybe it's maybe there three um it gives a chance to you know to show that it's not that much of a nuisance as it may be especially now that the city is aware of the operation and and can monitor it was it three years or two mean I do feel bad for any of these Property Owners because it's is about their neighbors meaning nuisances people can show up at every Planning Commission council meeting and complain and it might not always be as valid a complaint but it's still a complaint and so it's it's it's a tough situation to be either person involved here I would propose three and if Council feels strongly one way or the other they can shift it yep I think three is a reasonable number yep uh and then the city reserves the right to inspect the property with ample notice provided to the property owner verify continued compliance with applicable Pro provisions of the Daton zoning ordinance and conditions approved here within in general I think we have to get away from like ample like what does that mean into who like we should have a like you get two days notice you get like we should have a time frame on that the point is we're not showing up at 8:41 p.m. yeah no is fine but like I'm saying I don't think I think more and more we have to get away from imprecise language4 48 hour notice 12 hour notice and during regular business hours right like you'll get x amount of notice and it will be during regular business hours I just know because assessors have to get permission to walk on properties I think I think they do otherwise there's so no they really don't no they do but they give you this note but they technically to anyway I guess I don't want to put our staff in a situation either because if you come up with a three-hour notice and he's working it's like well that not I think that's unreasonable I think it's probably is it 24 or 4 and I'd be fine with 48 even I'm just saying like I in general we have got to get away from this precise stuff like ample so what does that mean practical side yes if if I'm going to show up to your house I'm going to call first yes and not just walk around without permission that's the idea so I mean I I I don't want to get stuck you hung up in the language CU you know how it's written how it's practiced might be two different things and see that is wildly inappropriate and should not be the case the intent is we're trying to be practical and I get that but you can be practical in writing just with at least 24-hour business hours like what's wrong with that I I don't disagree if there's a reason for health safety welfare you s the police well yeah and you've gone beyond if you really need to get there faster than 24 hours health safety welfare you call the cops yep send the blue and blue ands or the fire department right if it's that serious that it has to be dealt with within less than 24 hours then it's beyond and if it's that serious it's beyond your guys like that's beyond you guys right like if it's that like we have to deal with it within a day then that's beyond your scope that's now you're talking cops or fire or an ambulance right and that's a whole different set of B is there anything in the language you want to change I think you would propose ample to 24 hours 24-hour notice or say at least can can more notice if you want but at least at least 24 hours during business hours I mean you can't sh up at midnight right so so I'm changing ample to 24 hours I'd consider throwing the words at least in front of that too well the reason I don't like the at least is is from the standpoint of you know if we say we're going to show up oh it suggest if you say 24 hours that means you're going to show up sometime between 24 hours and 120 hours so you got to contact them it's not you can't show up at 21 hours yeah cuz we said 24 so yeahh I would just use that lease so when you reach out to you're not you're not you might not show up the next day it might be three days Y no less than 24 hours notice at least same thing same word it doesn't we can move on yes All Right item nine or condition n if City Zoning administrator or design finds that the use is not in compliance the permit Holder will be notified and have 60 days to bring the use into compliance should the home extend business non-compliance continue past 60 days the iup will be revoked or shall be revoked is that standard language in r or it is the the only thing I would add is when I you know shall is definite um only the city council can revoke a a permit not the city code like it has to be the action of the city council that revokes so sh says that it it basically must be revoked and the city council based on the way that's written wouldn't have a choice is that what you're suggesting they always have yes right right because the home extended business IEP will be reviewed by the city council yeah I mean this is out of the ordinance yeah so yeah sure you just copy paste it from the ordinance but you would agree that maybe that word is not appropriate correct yeah May would be a bit more accurate y so I'm going to change sh shall to May okay anything else any conditions anyone would like to see added would we like to see within that designated area for storage should it be bunkers or something that doesn't allow it to just continue to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and spill that's that's something for that I would provide for the group to can consider it really forces to where that material is going to be and it forces a quantity to some extent I'm going to add you know the commission has made comment several times of about the lack of a site plan you have the option of tabling this and allowing the applicant to return with the site plan that chose kind of where the I think the commission is going of of allowing outside storage yeah I struggle with that cuz it kind of does kick they can a little bit they are going to go to council if they can have this stuff tidied up by the time they get to council and council's the ultimate decision maker anyways you want to see this again huh you don't want to see this again no I don't it's not that I don't want to see this again um it's just that seems like the easy out of like yeah let's go see the next time and then we're all going to you know kind of rehash it all over again I I feel like I guess the question I feel like we can give good clear direction we want a site plan we want to clearly identify the iup area we want you to clearly identify parking area clearly identify the outdoor St clearly identify your outdoor storage area um we've got a very capable staff that can help them do that and put together materials that are um easily distinguishable for Council who is the ultimate decision maker outo storage and parking our intense is still conveyed to council agree the only reason I could see to table it is if someone's opinion would change based in cenite plan and my opinion wouldn't change based on Cen plan so that's why well I won't be here anyway I'd be more comfortable I'd be more comfortable right I already but unless someone's like unless one of unless someone's vote would actually change because of it there's no reason to delay this for the applicant like the applicant needs to get on with his life so I don't see why we would delay it a month and if a council member's vote might depend on it I plan's not perfected by then they can table it and they can come back ex exactly mhm but I don't see why we should delay it for them no agre to your question I don't know if it's necessary to define the sort necessary concrete not Environ as an option I'm not I wouldn't say I necessarily would not a it never goes anywhere this this is concrete I understand that you can recycle it you can recycle it you can I I'm I could go either way on the bunker good doesn't matter seems like a waste of money in my mind yeah understood I think having a site plan that's with the pack and if it gets approved there's now defined space designated space a designated space I'm all four but you can designate a space with things other than concrete is that fair to say yes any other conditions you know if I just can't think of any but if there's some way to mitigate noise carrying just from heavy machinery that but there just isn't and that's what I that's why I was suggesting more limited hours but I get it I I think some of this does get there and if I can try to help you feel a little better on that right the eight trips they can't come and go at noon they can't come and go at 1 they can't come and go at 10:00 a.m. right they're but he doing go in the morning and they're going to come in the evening and then they're if they do more than that they're in violation um I know the applicant but he's the shop he's doing some repair work in it mhm if he needs to idle a truck is he idling in the shop pumping the exhaust out or is he idling it out outside it's it's outside so I mean I get why he's doing it outside I'm not trying to say sh say noise it's the noise issue if the site plan could promote um roundabout use so there's less backing up that would help I would just clarify the applicant did uh address the use of the shed for um um maintenance and that only the front area of the dump trucks with the where the engine is uh can fit in the door that's on the shed um so that would be the area that would be in there while they're M working on the vehicles so um the way that the shed is currently built They isn't uh tall enough for a pass through I think there's a difference of a dump truck sitting there idling and a dump truck going back and forth dumping dirt whatever it might be right but sitting there idling they've got to maintain it you know tractor idle uh I'm not super super me personally not super concerned about that I'm more concerned because it's adjacent to a residential neighborhood I think again tractors when they idle you're on a farm and they're usually big farms yeah I get that any other conditions none here none here M well if I could just summarize these so to make sure my notes are clear so we have 10 conditions we added number 10 and I'm just going to go on the the change change language uh item or condition number one regarding a 6ot fence the intention is that this is going to be either wood or vinyl is that correct M item getting old here item two uh for uh storage area the the intent is uh that the applicant and this kind of gets into item 10 as well um the outdoor storage is going to be on the south side of the building and and as part of item two unless it's item 10 but the applicant shall provide a a site plan yes it two and 10 kind of roll into each other okay site plan specifying where the outdoor storage is and parking correct outdoor storage parking I would say interim use permit related area as well would be helpful and the fence item four related to hour uh days and hours of operation Monday through Saturday 7 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. uh specific to uh the use of dumping loading and staging so you can still arrive and leave outside those times um but no nothing else that's correct item six uh eight trips per day is changed to 12 trips per day item seven for the ex the length of the IEP 5 years has changed to 3 years item 8 related to inspections uh staff will provide 24-hour notice item nine uh related to if the permit is in violation it may be revoked as opposed to sh be revoked and then we added item 10 related to uh the applicant shall provide a site plan prior to the city council meaning identifying outdoor storage and parking and interim use permit related area and where the fence would be located okay well and really that site plan John should be provided prior to council right well yeah it be included as part of the as part of the packet yes so necessarily not in a condition on approval it's a condition prior to it's a condition of your approval yes or your recommended approval and this wouldn't go to council until the 28th correct so there is time to do that yes perfect don't want to put him in a situation that he's got to do it tomorrow correct well then in the reverse if uh a site plan wasn't provided by the time that the city council agenda packet would go out then city city staff would invoke the 60-day rule um and push it to until um that's provided good all right we've got a a draft resolution sounds like we need a motion yeah I would just the majority make a motion make it go faster I'll make a motion to approve the iup based on the um um what do we call these things again conditions thank you John conditions that we just outlined second all right we have a motion and a second all those in favor I I all those oppos n i n what do you say I don't know you didn't tell us what to say no all right uh it passes or is going to be recommended to the council 3 to2 uh as we said it will go forward uh January 28th to the council pending the site plan do you understand what we mean by the sa plan just for clarity where things are y on a drawing on a sketch print off an aerial try to get it as there can help you ha will provide you with an photo that you can draw on correct yeah so just wanted to make sure you understood that well I need to be at the next meeting because I actually have a hot date with my wife trying to go on vacation together you can work with staff to push it it's if if you're not in hurry like this can be bumped to another council meeting I just want to just ask to learn um you should be there so yeah I I would recommend be there so we can postpone it to I don't know one of the March meetings so we can work with you on that February February then you would need his permission to ex all right moving on perfect item number nine new business discussion of egg3 agricultural dis District okay so for this I say we're right on time we're right there John so the intent and I I'm going to start with the end and then start from the beginning what I'm looking for from the commission is I guess two questions of are we missing anything and are we ready for a public hearing uh for this so just keep those two questions in mind uh so the A3 districts as the commission is a know is aware of we have two well actually three agricultural districts so we have the A1 District which allows or has a minimum lot size of 40 acres A2 District allows subdivision where you're you're able to subdivide the homestead off of the larger piece and so you have a 2 and 1 12 acre lot for the house and a 372 acre Outlaw for the farmland and the attent here is that that Farmland Outlaw is not buildable um we've had numerous discussions of should we decrease this uh anywhere from allowing decreasing the minimum lot size from 40 acres to 10 acres or something different and where we've landed uh going back to the last commission is to allow a minimum density of one home per 10 acres where the minimum lot size is uh 1 and half acres of buildable and what I mean by buildable is Define that as a three-foot separation from a I think of it as the highest known water table there's a more technical term from that but it's did you get clarification John that 1.5 acres is adequate for a septic and a proof of a second set thck it depends on the engineers weren't generally it can be it can be on a good site yeah it's enough okay so but it also depends on what are you going to do with that acre and a half are you going to build a a 40,000 ft coar that's what I mean by it can be on a good site good soils and you're not or if you're building a six-bedroom home our three-bedroom home yeah yeah so you know house well and septic system yes but then it's what else are you going to do with that property so uh now in the future but with the um I don't know you call it the preliminary plat on a home but um we typically have the site plan dictate where the primary and secondary do I think it's on a survey and you can't touch it yep yep so okay I've got a couple slides of how we get got here I'm going to skip over it because it uh you you all were present for most of this conversation um over the last year um at the last commission meeting again where we end this is having a minimum lot size of an acre and a half so you'd have uh still the density of one per 10 uh so if you have let's say a 20 acre parcel you could split off an acre and a half and then the 18 and 1 12 acre would remain and you're done you know that's a two lot subdivision um the area for the A3 District was increased so the general boundaries are uh South Diamond Lake Road on the south side zanar in the eventual connection um to Dayton uh River Road and this is for this purposes right now I'm following property lines when the road actually goes through it's not going to follow property lines but this works for right now um and then everything south of Dayton River Road uh so generally the Northwest Quadrant of the city um at the last commission meeting there there were points that were made several times of what are the unintended consequences of what we're doing um these are have a tendency to not be understood until after the change is made and we realize somewhere we made a mistake and we just never thought of something um in this case uh within this area we do have uh three neighborhoods that are not zoned A1 and I guess my opinion is to keep those three neighborhoods uh with their existing Zone um plus the golf course so generally speaking this is um these are I think two acre lots that are along uh zanthus here um I can't think of the name of the subdivision but uh the neighborhood that's on the north side of Diamond Lake of Diamond Lake and then the neighborhood along 1502 so these would change or stay the same just as they are nothing changes since you need a minimum lot size of 20 acres why are we rezoning the lots that are in 20 acres that's a very good point so I guess so leading into that just thinking of less people that need to be concerned something drastically is happening to their property CU they won't be able to do anything at their property anyway if they don't have 20 acres sure so we have in the A1 District the minimum lot size is 40 Aces there are many Parcels there are less than that as an example um so I guess two questions or well it's really one question of is the intent here to change rezone this whole area to A3 or just only the applicable properties that are 20 acres or more or just allow it you know essentially we would show this in the comp plan this is our boundary and Property Owners leave it up to the property owners to whether or not they want to uh reone reone it again with if the city wants to promote this actually happening I think it would help the rezone it meaning that the property owners that can do this are going to be more aware of their options mhm if we did it that way otherwise you're going to let's say there's 20 property owners that are applicable to the A3 District that's 20 different applications and application fees that they have to go through versus the city just doing it how much are the application fees uh four was it three that was four currently it's 300 and then we have a I believe it's a $800 escrow on rezoning I can't in you said that was resoning I mean yeah I don't think that's going to be the hang-up I think it's just again I think it comes down to if the city wants to promote seeing this happening you're going to have way more awareness when someone gets a letter in the proper the mail say you're going to get your re on your property they're going to show up in a hearing which is why I want to be prepared and not have you know unintended Quant because the thing we didn't think about because they're going to show up at the meeting and now we can the staff can explain it to mm here's the intention you can do it you don't have to do it if you don't do it still guided low density residential when the pipe comes you can do that it's up to you and I don't have this as a slide so in the packet I I've got a a draft ordinance that shows the the allowable uses you know permitted conditional interum the general intent is that it's the same what's allowed in the A3 district is the same as I i1 and I2 um there's A1 A1 and A2 A1 A2 different we here um so the the only main difference is as it applies to subdivision so in the A1 District you're still at 40 acres and the A3 it's one per 10 density so um let me go through these slides a little bit on this slide it's a m zoning map uh as well as the 20 240 staging plan and then a a zoomed in area of the A3 District boundary with the three neighborhoods plus the golf course that's white it out and then the next slide and what if the golf course wants to do this I mean I get they're they're Zone what they're zone for a reason but I think that they should be notified that this is happening I mean yes so if they choose to want to participate we res Zone them at the same time we do everyone else so right now a zone is PR so assume that's Park and Recreation or something yes public Recreation which obviously make them a non-conforming use and maybe that doesn't matter because they don't plan any expansions or whatever but they it I I I would advise against that so when you get into insur expansions if if they're going to expand a building um they need a variance yeah but but I think the message should be to everyone even if you don't meet the 20 acre minimum if some person buys two properties that are next to each other and comes in to apply they would be the ones that come in to apply for an A3 as part of you know that would work too it's not that we we just don't want to blank in zone A3 because I think we're going to have more unintended consequences if that happens are you supporting designating this lots that do conform with A3 the 20 acre minimum right now then to rezone them rezone them now as opposed to allowing just the zone that the whole area yep yeah yeah personally I the whole area like the Lots we dealt with tonight if if they're no longer appropriate for A1 it's almost like because A1 was meant for heavier agricultural uses and and technically a holding zone for future development is what it's really meant for and if we want to preserve these Lots in this area you know we should rethinking hard about what they should really be zoned to help let that happen not just a one blanket that's a holding Zone sure okay um so this slide and I apologize it's not readable on the screen but you do have a print out in front of you this is the sewer not going to call it the sewer staging plan but uh ultimate trunk sanitary sewer and this is why Jason's here um so in staff's conversations if if we're going to do this anywhere in Dayton Northwest Dayton is the best place um this this is most of this is the end of the sewer line um I don't know Jason if you want to expand on that it's really that simple this is the uppermost end of the the trunk lines extending from both the South and the East just from a pitching a standpoint to maybe like a met console or something like that is there anything else going on in this area with topography I know the one site that came in they talked about all the soils being stripped down to the clay and I me is there anything else going on wet lands that we could we should be incorporating into the story on why this area other than it's the end of the pipe so that question is a requirement from the Met Council of you know why is this area uh worth preserving or difficult to develop and it's that same reason there's a there's a lot of topography there's a lot of wetlands um as a lot of existing two to 10 acre lots already Yes um the other thing is in my thinking is you know by preserving this as I'm going to say rural area for as long as possible um this kind of serves as a green belt around uh the old village and separates the Village from the rest of a developing dat so the village is going to stay as as small I was wondering if that's a good thing or a bad thing considering shouldn't say it like that I think that's inconsistent with Council what council recently passed for the Old Village concept sure so so I I don't know if that is appropriate well and and and I always struggle with our neighboring cities of what's going on on the other side of the border and and this this map clearly shows you know it's the properties right right up on the crow there's some smaller development right on the other side in is that oigo there well and you know the map on the left is from 2008 oh so there's a lot more development and not no and that's and that's what I'm getting at is like so on that side of Brockton those those homes along the crow that could be a nice you know not I mean they're beautiful properties today this chunk is all developed but but the crow comes through here yeah and and we could easily Connect into that neighborhood right there with that sliver on that side of Brockton you see where I'm going with it on the other side of the crow I'm I guess where I'm struggling because all the development with sew development is on the north side of the crow isn't what I don't know if that has that me based on the size of those lots are you talking about this stuff here yeah that is not that's not SE okay yeah that's to go to R Cony I guess on the south side of the Crow River correct I mean that's all built out but it's not sewered yeah not those are like a lot of those are the north side of the crow is all developed with in the proc that's but that's where I struggle with like what's going on on that side just to make sure we're consistent in that area so if it it was sewered it'd be a why is that not popular the right coneing bord is the crow okay got it so north of the crow yeah that must be henin henin's down for maintenance right now yeah they are cuz I just tried to refresh it and then lost everything so don't refresh or it's going to disappear on you so where I I'm struggling to see where you guys are pointing at that's not sewer Rogers yep it's Rogers oh here it is oh right here that I'm trying to figure out what that is because right here we should keep that consistency on that side of Brockton this is what this all is yeah so it's it's Rogers it's when so the the west side of Brockton most of these I don't know what the I'm going to say most of these would not qualify for subdivision I mean we we had the one gentleman that said he has 30 Acres it's actually a 10 and a 20 yeah but that would qualify if they contiguous and he assemble put them together you get yeah I don't I won't have a problem with that I just think that you have to start with you got to have 20 acres to come to the plate to talk what if you have 18 you wouldn't meet the requirement well we're sticking pretty tight to the met cil's one per 10 unit average which that theory I mean you can make an exception but that's where that's coming from I don't want to do it I just being yeah I wouldn't count and you know this is a this would be a large change for this area but it's not a I'm going to say it's not a massive change so um it might be a 100 houses that new h Homes that could be built I'd be shocked at that much I mean ultimately it'll come down to the big land owners if they choose to do this or not but um one thing that we haven't talked about is in our code which I think so we have our subdivision regulations how is that going to factor in when they go to subdivide meaning are we going to have different requirements like Road access for example are we going to allow a bunch of curb addition I don't think laale has much room for but would we allow a bunch of keyboard Lots along Longdale or would we want these developments to have their either a shared driveway or their own private road uh so the the how do I have it written here the minimum requirement so again thinking this is a minimum lot size of an acre and a half is that um you have to have at least 200 ft of lot width along a public road and I think 200 ft is a lot because I'm not I'm okay like like I think of that the plat that we saw some of those probably didn't have 200 ft because it was just the odd shapes of the properties and so I'm okay with the less Road Frontage cuz if you got even 100 ft you still got plenty of Road Frontage you still need two and a half acres so it's going to that just means it's going to get a different kind of shape well and and but does it matter what type of road it's on too I think it more matters on are we going to allow more curb cuts on certain roads that we can like Wale um what's the other one the other one is on the west side of Diamond Lake Road uh zanthus zanthus y um obviously Brockton and North diamond we don't really control so but like Thicket Lane obviously there's I don't even think there's one that would qualify there so you don't have to worry about it but the question becomes is when we look at these parcels and identify these 20 acre Parcels is it going to create a problem or do we do we need like Peter said maybe we don't need to specify but I don't think I have enough information to know if that's a concern of mine is like all of a sudden we have all these Lots along this road and we never intended we intended them to have their own road coming in Ty of situation I think that's part of why we need also a more long-term Road plan for this like part of the issue is which roads are going to be busy like right if it's a like which roads can have Curb cuts which ones can't depend on how busy and how much also which ones are going to like lose a whole bunch of footage because we're going to expand it to four lanes and then like then you're going to go from your one and a half acres is suddenly not going to be enough anymore without knowing we need a better Road plan so we have that in the comprehensive plan um but if you have someone that's subdividing one lot or two lot they're not going to build a new road with that they can't afford it so it's going to be lots that are just on existing roadway on the bigger acreage Parcels where going one or two new driveway they might not be able to afford to put the roadway in but do we want to preserve the right away to do so sure yes and that's that's the I think that's getting a serious question or comment of we need a transportation plan now even look at the Vicksburg Road the gravel road up there um I don't know how close I think no that's on the wrong side of so that would be outside this area never mind well no it's within the air right on the Eastern Edge yeah and I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm saying we need to think about all right are we just going to keep allowing curb cuts on existing roads and and if we are what are the what are the reasons behind it well and putting in also the kind of Road you put in makes a big difference right like putting in I'm not saying that it's cheap to put a gravel in but it's cheaper to put a Gravel Road in then like paved with curbs and like and so if you're talking about we want to ultimately preserve this so that it can be at some point subdivided further then I wouldn't be as concerned that you have to be like if you have a shared gravel driveway that these property share then go for it right and then you only need one curb cut these are things that I think need to be codified because like a shared driveway would probably get more support for gravel I would not support a gravel road like say say there was a 40 acre parcel and they were doing four Lots I guess I wouldn't support a gravel road from a longer term perspective it doesn't have to be a fancy pavement road but sure and maybe the engineers will can change my mind but I'm thinking about maintenance I'm thinking about but at a certain point does the city need to maintain a road that's serving four houses that's a shared driveway we do um well that's another question actually because a lot of cities limit shared driveways to two homes and I don't do we have anything in our code that even talks about that yet don't that I've run into I mean I can think of a a very close example that has four houses on three houses on one driveway well and maybe that though as we're looking at this for this area we we may want to consider that yeah and and we may have it elsewhere that or existing ones that we have to maintain and take care of but as we're introducing this new item because it's a new it's a whole new District we can put in new things just for this District so yes anywhere else you can't have four houses sharing a driveway but in this District you can like we could do that right well currently our code doesn't have a limit but I'm saying I think the bigger debate or question is is do we want to even limit it first of all but that's something that we haven't discussed that we need to think about because when the first applications start coming in they're going to you know if if we want it to be a certain way Tower versus gravel and I'm not talking of a 20 acre going down the one or two I'm talking you know 50 60 Acres I think what's the one gentleman that spoke that has some land said he might do it and he would gravitate more towards the smaller Lots it sounded like and just leave a big chunk of land with no entitlements just to sit there rural like we want until the day comes and so those roads and that access is what we need to be thinking about too or what are the requirements going to be and the question is does our subdivision code already cover that or do we need to be incorporating that you would go you would be an item through the subdivision process so we're talking about the Burnin property so y they have I don't I'm going to say like 300 acres something like that um you know so let's say they do a 20 lot subdivision at 1 and2 Acres I guess our our position would be is they're building an urban well they're building a paved Street it would be treated like any other subdivisions it's just has larger Lots would we require curbs or would we require some different I know he asked for that too which that I I don't have the answer I'm just saying that's what we need to be talking about and figure out before we so it'd be curves either would function either would function okay if it's not curves it's ditches along the street I don't I don't know that you prescribed that right away and and say one has to be that or the other I think that would be overdoing it personally like cuz I think it's going to depend on the property and the layout and Stor infrastructures nearby yeah I think where Darren's had may be you put curbs in you're putting ponds or at least put curbs in you're putting concrete pipe in so what what prevents them from subdividing you know slowly one lot at a time and then doing the bare minimum for the one you know what I'm saying the people who buy it who won't buy it cuz you've done the bare minimum no I think what Peter is saying if you do one lot this year another lot next year and and then by the end you're you've done 350 all 350 acres in 10 in you know 30 years right I mean there's economies is in scale if you're building you know you're hiring an engineer 20 times versus WS well it's it's not only the economies in scale it's you know it's so I think of the one up in corpin that it had a 10 acre average um what was it called the beol farm I want to say yeah um they required asphalt and I know the develop and this developer is going to be one of the first guys coming in here if he because he's good at it but he really pushed hard for gravel and I'm not saying gravel's wrong we just need to make that decision and say this is what we want is part of our code one or the other and not let them dictate it based upon finances because ultimately it goes down to what they pay for the land and so we have to be thinking about what's the right thing for the city longer longer term hopefully I I think it's really going to be Case by case so you know for example you know last month we had a a but if it's a public right away do you think it's still Case by case on gravel versus I do so for example you know uh we had a concept plan last month for the quilling subdivision so this was one new additional house that's a private driveway on a public easement roadway easement so the question of I guess staff's recommendation is not to build a road you know just keep it as a driveway and for yeah so it's like a shared driveway with two homes yeah I'm more thinking like so this Beck to Farms the road went two three miles and it kind of winded around and had a big culd theack at the end he wanted to do gravel yeah and the city said no you got to do tar and he did tar MH it what it what it really impacts is what you can pay for the land so we need to have clear Direction so when they come in and do this it's it makes sense dry I'm not disagreeing with you but I think it is going to be more Case by case so I think it's Market driven too to some extent I mean if you got four houses sharing a roadway they can't afford to pay for it to pay a long roadway as well but but you I think in a four subdivision it's going to be shorter one one one even if it's four and four and four of them y but if then it will be a shorter road too if it's only four houses they're not the commission have an opinion on pay for versus gravel I'm fine with gravel I'd prefer paved depends what level of service the city wants to provide how you know it's just there's a lot of gravel roads that get maintained very adequately and you know I I don't know how many miles of gravel roads we have now but we we've got plenty think part of this is to maintain Road character right like May so I think and I mean not much if you did gravel just realize that if someday someone said pave it who's paying for it with our current policy of the city yeah well who's going to say pay it residents residents then you say okay well your taxes are going up or you use special assessments you special like that's but that's currently not our policy so it is what it is but but again just because we allow gravel right doesn't mean it's going to be grav like but that's just it this is a minimum not like we're not saying you can't have paved like and so if a developer comes in and wants to do this and knows they can charge more if they pave and they'll get it then they're going to do that we're setting the minimum not the maximum so my say minimum is gravel go for it if a developer if someone comes in thinks they can do it and sell those homes and that they buyers were like no I'm fine with gravel I'd rather have it cheaper because I can actually afford it and this is what I want and I'm fine with gravel let him and then if it has to go then special assess them like because they're the ones who'll be asking for it right if this is that local a ro the rest of Dayton is going to give a crap if it's paved or not the only people who care are the people who live there and you say okay fine then you get special assess for it and they say you know what in second thought gravel's fine with us and you're like that's what I thought anyway moving on like that's how like I think you're borrowing trouble if you work that way I'd agree with you I the the only the only caveat is the maintenance side of it and and you know is it going to be I I don't know but is it going to beat up our plot more is it going to you know that kind of stuff that you know detrimental effects down the road right obviously we got more miles to to plow and and maintain if it's asphalt but it's just it's maintenance you got to you know the washboard you got to Blade them off and yeah is it more maintenance than what we want to take on in that regard or we trying to get away from and I'm more thinking too like if it's a big property went like the one that was talking yeah I'm assuming if he did two acre lots he's got to PVE it but who knows well and and that's is there some guidance of their in there that we can provide up to X number of which is where I'm saying like four houses or less gravel we don't care you got more than four then sure maybe we talk about having to pay it then but I would be okay with that a compromise of this number is this this number is that would that yeah so four is basically you need 40 acres yeah I'm not against that I'm just I just we want it codified because otherwise we're going to be up here making these decisions right every single time and it just well it it's one of 100 decisions you're going to make with every subdivision no but it's more a decision that when the developers come in or the buyer comes in they know how to price the land now if we give them Direction otherwise they come up here and ask us to do stuff and everyone blames us that things don't happen like they're supposed to and purchase agreements fall apart because things are too expensive in the city of Dayton just put it in the code so one knows what it is so gravel or pav I'm okay with the Sarah Theory and I think maybe we should you know have Jason have the maintenance staff weigh in if they had a preference their opinion counts more than mine yeah and and that's kind of where I was going with my comment I mean I'm fine either way it's just is it is it more of a headache to maintain that we don't want to deal with well and I mean it is but it's more of a more so for the homeowners I think if you ask a public works person whether they would rather have it paved or gravel and they didn't you know the other the people that are living there are going to pay for it to be paved they're going to tell you every day they want paved right they don't have to Blade it after rainfalls it doesn't wash board they don't have to apply dust control you know there's a lot of benefits to Paving a road but are we going to price out the folks that are developing that area are we going to force them it it just depends if we want want to do that or not well that is where I go back to if it's only four then it's a shared driveway it's not the city's responsibility the developers likely going to charge still incredibly expensive if it's five and now always say had five you got to pay it still incred the developer is going to likely charge the same price for the lot whether it's paved or gravel it's what he pays for the land exactly what happened in corkran yeah I don't know if I so he's going to make more money if it's gra he's going to make more money if it's gravel cuz he has less development cost but he might pay something l too if he knew going in it had to be paid well and right I mean there's nothing that says we if we put paved in there and I mean can we put a a thing of I think all shared driveways so if it's a shared driveway meaning it's not a public Street I don't care what it is you have four homes a lot of four homes might be a shared driveway depending on how they you know question I just had is are are we going with the assumption that every development has to have public roads in it this is and I don't know why we do that personally yeah I so the way it's written you you have to have front edge on a public road it but access is a different question yeah I do think that if you have more than x number of homes it probably should become public I don't know that perfect number same um my and I'm more referring Dennis that asphalt is related to public roads not the private ones so so my comment was maybe that I was thinking is maybe we want to require them to be paved uh and then have a gravel may be allowed for certain size subdivisions of of property or something along those lines I think he just call out the number whether that's two three four and the reason I say maybe allowed because if someone comes in with 300 acres and they're you know oh trying to do a one they're trying to do a oneoff here and a oneoff here to keep it cheaper you know you can smell the skunk but then once they hit a certain number they're going to have to go back and redo it each one's kind of looked at independently each one's looked at independently and it might be over a course of 20 years but but if we if we say hey they got to be paved but we we'll allow gravel in C certain situations I mean but I mean that's a long game and if you want to play that long of a game I guess who cares but if if we look at it from a certain situations we might get one or two that yep it makes sense to do gravel cuz it's four homes off of a culde saac that's or five even and right and it's a shared driveway their own it's more of a shared driveway than it is a roadway would you look at units instead of length because I mean you could have four units that are totally laid out different than yeah you could have huge rotors you could yeah that's why it almost seems like you you look at maybe a length or I don't know like I said I I think private Road should be private I mean roads that are used by those people I have a hard time making them public I've never understood that the council does have the option of public versus private roads I mean so then I think to everyone public roads are paved private roads can be gravel and that kind of answers the to the public works and maintenance then we got that cleared and then from a developer standpoint design it which way makes sense we don't plow private roads do it no we don't point so like then it's your problem not ours well but we do have the frontage we do have other issues yeah the frontage requirement and I think we can decrease the frontage the lot size is what's driving it more than the frontage I don't care about Frontage I care about lot size okay so because I want to because again you're looking at these properties if they have a bunch of wetland I want them to be able to do a lot that's going to make sense and preserve that Wetland that's way more important than you need this much space in this road who cares so 100 ft I would say 80 to 100 80 I think if anything you think about the lot the lot with at set at setback that's what matters more 80 is the R1 District yeah I was going to say 80 is pretty generous yeah that's our and yeah I'd be fine with 80 do we and then the next one you had was the lot with that setback yeah so that would change from 200 feet to 80 feet at the setback 80 ft would be the road Frontage at setback the question is is what you want if you have 80 at well what what Darren's saying is you can have big pie shaped Lots right especially when you got roads curvy roads and I that makes you know I think that makes sense too I mean that that Thicket Lane is yeah almost identical to what I think we're we want so the setb back's 30 ft I mean at 80 ft you're not going to be much less than that the front yard setback is only 30 ft only 30t yeah we should probably bump that up a little bit 30t in the A1 distri well I I guess that's hard we have to keep in mind that we're trying to CU then make it appear that we're going to get three units per acre somay well but also you're thinking about Wetland and topography like if you have like again I'm thinking about the one that 30 ft is the minimum though yeah 30 ft is the minimum it's not the maximum you do we need to have a a setback on a one and a half acre lot long as they're setback 30t from the road design your lot so the house can work on it yeah a minimum setback yeah so in no no do we need to Define l with that setback we probably don't need to Define that in this circumstance it's different in a subdivision than it is this I I do think we need a a minimum lot width at some point on the lot fair enough the concern that I would have is that you have a lane lock parcel like here's my my 20 acres and I'm just going to carve out an acre and a half of the middle of nowhere but that's where the 80 ft of Street Frontage stops here right yeah you have to have at least private road it's private road have Street Front well we can say it's public right away then you have access Private Road well and I'm I'm thinking we need if we're having 80 ft at the at the road and what are we saying these Lots can be or have to be minimum size well if it's a shared driveway though that throws everything AC and a half that's a long that could be a super long skinny lot and you see them all around the Lakes up north sure right you my parents are on a a 100t lot it's 2 and 1/2 acres and it's skinny there's not much room there and I think we should I think okay if what we're trying to do with this we need a minimum width the width can be doesn't have to be on the street the doesn't have to be on the street it doesn't even have to be at the setback but somewhere but somewhere we have to find a minimum so if you have to make this weird wedgie shape to fit that's fine how Define that are you talking about a maximum minimum or you I mean if you have a funky shaped lock are you are you talking about the at the Peaks or at the tops or I that's where I hit the minimum somewhere on that somewhere on the the lot and I don't know how to define it what angle great John or you guys pull up the plat the that's where it's easy to say at the setback salt a Thicket Lane I mean at 200 at the setback is at 30 foot minimum that's not going to work yet that's not going to work with 80ft Frontage but maybe you say maybe you say at 80t back 80 ft back I you know give them a give them a little bit more room to work with one thing keep in mind too is I don't think we want this to look like the fence or uh ordinance MH where we have tried to meet every use case never going to do it yeah we can't criticize other ordinances and then go create pretty terrible ordinance that work with themid we'll make one even worse I mean again I think there's 24 we want to have enough flexibility because the whole point of this is to work with land that might not be easy to like I'm like Thicket Hills and things like that on the flip side I also don't want to be caught in these situations where we're constantly having to make judgment calls whether it's the Planning Commission or the city council like having to make judgment calls is never a good position to find yourself in so I am with you on like I would like some clear definitions and that's that's that balance that we have to strike we have to make it flexible enough to allow people do creative things with land that we want to like the wetlands and the topography and yet make it so that we're not constantly making judgment calls because what I don't want is I don't want a situation where if I wait till after the election the decision would change right like the like the decision shouldn't change that drastically based on the five people up here it should be fairly like there should be rules and I should be able to you know know what to expect and like my my examples is those two little Lots I don't mind two little ones but I I don't want to whole neighborhood of those because they meet the minimum so I this doesn't have Dimensions but I believe these are Run at 200 ft nothing or the 200t lot maintenance yeah those are 200t lot width yeah at that just got beer he would prefer to do all one and a half acre lots yeah which is his choice right and then just leave some undeveloped at the end with no entitlements until the day comes with the PIP and and what I I don't want is 80t by 200t in length Lots got it that's that's what I'm trying to avoid is really bare minimum sizing in that regard so right now I have 80 ft written down for minimum lot one at the set back front set back at the at the we Road um how how is that road I mean we're kind of hopping on how's the road going to work if we have a shared driveway they're not going to have any Frontage on a road it's not a road right how's that going to work Road or you have an undefined thing essenti right it's not a road a driveway the FR property line shall be I mean one road but the two B minimum lot Frontage at RightWay wouldn't that be the there's no RightWay it's private the driveway would be on an easement the driveway would start on a public road so maybe the first house would have the road but then let's just say the road went like this and all the houses were on this side the other three houses have big hous in the past um we didn't have a minimum Frontage you could have a Shar e bent you and that's that's the hook here and that's what I was mentioning a few minutes ago is that minimum Frontage is a problem if you got rivate roads CU there is none um okay so we have there's a house that's under con big house under construction just North of city hall um when that came in as a concept plan I think that was on as five Lots with a private road uh public right away but it was a private road and what that allowed the developer to do was to have it a more narrow road than what our standard 60 ft was I don't know I'll say it's 40 it was yeah something um in re like it it you know it changed and it's something totally different but it started out as I believe a five lot subdivision you're talking the one the reg off of pine yeah yeah Sal yes not North and that one did we give that a variance then because there's no way one home with the driveway I know but I don't think they have I don't know if it made it to preliminary plan or not no I think it's just concept yeah Tom Dean just came in for a concept plan and then came back in So using that concept plan as an example it's still a public roadway but it's a private road that we're not maintaining so we own the road but we agreed not to maintain maintain it we we own the land we we that we never I thought it was an easement was it actually right away well still it was at concept PL I mean part of me doesn't understand why we need to call that out mhm Frontage Frontage right agree I think we started getting into that when we started seeing these developments and we said you know there were probably people that said hey we're two D here let's set a minimum sure I I don't know so trying to think of unintended consequences what could go wrong so not requiring any lotl at at the road is that allows a lan lock parcel somewhere but still in the platting process we want how can we control not approving the plat if we don't like how they because they got to give it access and so we either going to make them give an easement or something how can we control that legally in the platting process so in the plating process you I mean you can require an easement uh Perpetual you know permanent easement think oh go ahead well I was going to say I get I get where you're going with this where we can require in the problem becomes I think if we develop or or approve something on a parcel and the neighboring parcel only has dry land Highland on that axis and we don't know about it at that point so you're land loocking the neighbor we're normally in orderly development at some point a road would have came through sure y y and again hi it's always 2020 so I mean we're going to adopt this we're going to make some mistakes and then fix it later on just like I think every other Cod yeah I think the small Parcels like the 20 30 acre Parcels there's not going to be much to fix because they're straightforward it's the couple bigger Parcels that maybe something happens on but once a m if we make a mistake the correcting it will be maybe not what people desire sure yep I guess is the way to say it we never really greed in one and a half acres it got turn out I still like three as a minimum um but if you up the acreage then a lot of these questions go away like how long and skinny do you have to be on three acres like that would be a long skinny person but but if we say 80 that's where I'm getting at is is we've seen and and maybe I'm just used to working with our big box developers we've seen them go to the minimums and then push them yeah oh yeah and that's that's where I'm I'm just thinking is it even physically possible in the parcels we have to have a 3 Acre parcel that's only 8 feet wide and like like there's not enough room going this way you'd run out like you'd run off your acreage you'd have to widen it yeah if you're going three acres you should go wider than 80 you have I mean like I'm saying at a certain point you just can't phally where the issue is is where does it have to be because it could be could start narrow which is fine somewhere around there like I don't know I just I'm I would be up I would be I personally want to up the minimum lot area to 3 acres and then I think some of these problems take care of themselves and just to be clear 3 Acre parcel 80 ft wide would have to be 1,600 ft long yeah like that's just not going to happen yeah like that just right but I don't want to limit it because it could still 80 and be like a big pie that looks beautiful how it works with the I mean you look at the the plat they just set up some of those were pie shape do we know and just so you guys know that when Peter and is that when we came up with the 1 and 1/2 to three that was a ongoing discussion and the one and A2 is all usable yes to be clear no Wetlands no wetlands and I'm not set on one and a half it could be two could be two and a half could be three but I just I don't want it to be so too restrictive to make a site less flexible keep in mind that if you got 20 acres to begin with and one's Acres well that means the other one's 18 so you know you're not like you're well or three agreed it has to be a 10 average like we talked about it but that was never a I think that's a met if we're going to have any we will have a big argument over that I have yet to hear proof of that show me an ordinance that says met counselor can reject any of this stuff we've gone over this John yeah Dennis from a point up here in the Planning Commission having the majority of the council directing us on that topic alone because otherwise we can we can give you guys better ideas if we know exactly what the council is willing to do we can and I can't speak for the other four right I can speak for me and it and maybe something like this should be um I don't know a work session between the two or something I I think a work session I like the idea of identifying what are the the sticking points that's good task for staff to and have a work session and so we've had many work sessions so what what I need is Direction on what it is that you want to talk about well I mean this is farther than we've ever gotten before in any work session I think understanding the minimum lot size obviously understanding the average lot size yes I mean I'm working on the assumption that we need to do 10 if people the direction is you can do less that might change our thinking and how we draft a code so what the Met council's going to require us is still a density of 1% yeah whatever the minimum lot size that that's up to the city so the question I think is what can you you know what is the minimum like what can you do on an acre and a half or is it 3 acres so an acre and a half is adequate for a house a well and septic systems what else do you want to do on there you know do you want to have a hobby Farm do you want to have horses do you want to have a big Pole bar you know if you do you need more land and not everyone's going to want that you let you find out correct so you know using these properties as an example um you know this is in Thicket Lane this is a 10 acre property um 1.6 acres is high ground and it's all along the the RightWay um they don't have horses so but then next to it well couple down 4.9 Acres they do I mean I backed off with my five to be clear my initial statement was five acres and I'm willing to come down to three acres the one downsize of 1.5 is we might have someone that literally does all 1.5s and if that's not what we intended we should bump it up it's still within the density so yeah I'm still I'm still operating under the 10 acre average with that comment but instead of 1.5 it's maybe two and a half or three but if we don't cuz I get it is someone did 10 1.5 acre lots on a culde saac that's probably and then left a big chunk undeveloped that can't do anything with is that meeting our intentions preserving a lot of open land it is preserving that's that's what I that was the whole trade off and so if people don't want that then we need I should say don't want the 1.5 Acres obviously we need to bump it up well for me part of this is like adding options to people like we're not saying all of Dayton has to go this way right like we're not saying every like we're picking an area where this would be an option for people and to have give developers like the one that we all seem to like like options for some of these Parcels um so I don't know but I I think this definitely has to be a work session yeah and I think we have gotten further so 1 152 just so everyone can put it in perspective that's all 2 and a half acre lots is yours work working now yeah it just started working okay I mean that's what you might end up getting with this ordinance and a big chunk of preserved land and so it's you know we obviously need to pick a number whether that's one and a half or something bigger so at a work set and this would be a work session with Council and and try to get met counsel to to attend also no no no okay what is it what are the answers that you want to come up with by the end of this work session I mean I think you're asking the right questions minimum lot area Max like these are all the right questions to ask I'm just saying I'm not sure the Planning Commission should be having this conversation separately from the city council it feels like we should be having this conversation together sure is that fair to say MH and we don't have the time up here sitting up here to think of every Pitfall no and and I think we do need staff's help in think of those pitfalls to help guide that discussion and and still young I think not young enough something too that staff should really weigh in on is and focus on a bigger parcel because a little parcel it's just going to take care of itself is what are we going to where are we going to rec require public right away for future roads so a parcel doesn't get landlocked and so maybe there's certain bigger Parcels you got to have to take a better look at because there's going to be pitfalls with each parcel twoo and the bigger Parcels are the more the ones that if something went and it landlocked somebody we how can we control that prevent it because that wouldn't be right either sure so using um laale as an example so the west side of laale is included in the A3 area um that's going to be a major road at some point so then the question is I mean the roads already existing but you've got let's say it's a private road that's in theory let's just say that everything enveloped in this area at one per 10 it's no longer going to be a major road if that's how it develops that would change that would have to change for it to become a major road yeah how unique of an idea is this are there other communities that have struggled with this oh so are why are we Reinventing the wheel um I I'm going to say there's probably no good example no good successful no successful example uh I wouldn't say that there might not be no good successful example here in this state but that doesn't mean they're not say that corkran and Ramy have was Cork and Ramy have plenty of examples because it's allowed to work from examples here right it's so hard to figure out we're just we're just throwing stuff into the air I'd love to see examples because that's what a developer had proposed what they did do you know I mean I would encourage staff to talk to those staffs so you're looking for examples of research I'm going to say like less than developments that are less than 5 Acres or well I think what you need to have Direction before you talk to them is what's going to be our average lot size because otherwise the conversation is going to go different directions you need to understand what the average lot size is what do you have 20 acres I mean the average lot size is going to be 10 yeah exactly but but I'm more concerned about the two bigger properties that we're putting in here and we're putting them in here for a reason yeah I mean we're hoping something happens I'm guessing that's why we're doing it is just to make sure Beck told Farms is a great example I mean I can set I have some information on that because okay do you know what lot sizes those are yeah I do I did the appraisal on it so I can share all the D is it two and a half acres or is it no they average close to 10 they're like 10 AC some are smaller some some are six but the the average is close to 10 and they had one monster lot well and we have we have these are all half acre roughly I mean the around Northeast State there yeah it's we've got exam it's I mean maybe two and a half is the the number but that's where we should have a bigger discussion and give Council other members of Council on here something you know what works better I I definitely think we need examples I mean just throwing the softball in the air and having us all swat out is not and I think it's better John to show and I can get you the Beck told Farms plat yeah I think it's better to show a bigger picture than just here's an example of a lot so people can see you know how it might look like in a if a bigger parcel went sure so Thicket Lane is roughly 9 to 10 acres per lot and you know you you've got at least one homeowner that has three lots so 30 Acres or 30 plus acres so I guess my question is do we not have examples in Dayton I think for this discussion to be productive we gotta bring bring that not just like oh thick Lane I don't even know where that is I'll be honest with you come on it's got a new road there we go that was Private too right up until I don't know it was was it it's confusing there's right away out there but it was signed as a private road I literally a sign on the side that's right it was another one of these what really is this thing yeah maybe a few of those but it is public rway so ticket Hills is mostly 10 give or take some are a little bigger some are a little smaller yeah my guess is it was 10 acres at the center of the Rope okay so we're going to have a workshop to talk about the minimum lot size what else I think things like how do we prevent the super stupid skinny like the skinny like the ridiculous the ridiculous shapes right so that that's with a minimum lot withd somewhere like and how do we Define that and I mean I think we get around it if we go larger on the Lots but I don't know if that larger on the Lots is the right answer so these are what we're concerned with we're we're concerned with so if we can give staff direction we want to have work session we want to discuss um I don't know we can provide what we think is too small of a minimum lot size and you know maybe we can think about that really quick we want to avoid oddly shaped Lots we want to avoid we want to understand at what point does it make sense to require a paved Road that's a weird thing for us up here I think I think I think it' be good for staff to say okay you know we talk Public Works and um if we were to make a recommendation this we would we would set that line here and then we can swap that ball around but just to say do you want to pay it I think it's really hard for this body to get give you any sort of answer that one was proposed to be paved correct yeah well yes I mean that we never got around to discussing that that's an assumption um so thinking about minimum size there's those one two three four five six there's 10 homes right in a row that are 2 and a half acres um off of Brockton it is uh 152nd Avenue North off of Brockton um but I just I can only speak for myself I will go drive down that road be and like because sometimes I have to physically be in a space to really get a sense of what that feels like um because I like I said five was my initial I'm can have I can get behind going lower than that for various reasons I'm not sure how much lower um it's yeah you have them highlighted right there those guys those are all two and a half acres yep so i i before I say yes or I want to go drive out there but that might be part of the I mean this is something we don't typically do but we could assign ourselves homework like before you show up go look at this right or have the back to farm thing right Darren email John and have you set it to everyone yes right you know but like do some homework so because part of the problem I think is we get in here and then we're scrambling to like research things in the middle of the meeting and then stupid henen County's GS map goes down in the middle of our meetings the last two in a row so and the other one that like I brought it up last time one of the last times we talked about this but there's a neighborhood in Maple Grove appoa woods and it and that one was developed initially as what we're talking about with these kind of larger lots and they've started to go and bring sewer they brought sewer and water in through there years ago and got rid of the septic and now there people are starting to subdivide a 5 acre lot or a 3 acre lot down to one and a halfs and that's why the minimum minum kind of Road Frontage is somewhat important because it does allow for that on a bigger lot in the future do you know where in Maple Grove that is just nor north of Rush Creek okay uh golf course but if you had a shared Drive say it was four lots and you had a shared driveway at some point in time that would probably become a public for you to further subdivide those lots so that's what I'm less concerned about on those yes but if we're talking acre and a half or 2 acre lot or even five and we're talking a 300 acre parcel that we're trying to weave a a public road through how does it want to look right because if it looks very different if we're doing really wide Lots right so I think a question that staff needs to ask Council and the PC too is what burden are we going to put on property owners to show that it has future develop vment potential to meet three units an acre if any um white land delineation so the delineation wetlands and flood planes is going to tell you how much how morph they can Road layout like Peter said if they pull a windy road through the development yep I don't know if I want to place that burden on them but it's a question do you it's a question if we have to ever justify what we did to met Cil like yeah you can still do three units maker what are you talking about we don't want to be the half the ones to create something we want the person that's developing it to have that to do it sure so Northeast Dayton that has say you know two two acre lots is Ghost pled yeah it's doable but it's going to create a burden when on the road shape so which that's why I think we should have that discussion if we want to do that or not it's going to be like the one example we already have in Dayton um that we're just looking at that they're proposing yep that would probably be tough to show without starting over how you would do that they have to me you don't yeah and to me you don't have to do three units an acre in your go spot you have to do something the city can tolerate to make sure we're going to meet our overall density requirements we've got two and a half or two units per acre developments I mean they're older we just so it doesn't have to be showing three but it has to be showing that there's a logical way to maybe someday add more density yeah these had that same these are all ghost pled but yeah there was no and I don't know what they're ghost pled for what lot size but you know they were small I thought they were three well that yeah and I think that's why that that neighborhood Maple Grove is interesting because it is these larger five you know it was larger 5 acre lots John if you go down to Rush Street golf course you can maybe see it uh further south it's by Weaver Lake right yep just you're getting there your carser is almost on it it's right there where the border is really goofy right here zoom in right there that's it that's that's it right there and you can start to see on the North End you can start to see you see the lots are actually divided out turn the aerial off you'll see it better you well up where Yellowstone is there's like four lots that are owned by one par one person right now but they used to be one lot and you've started to see them subdivide and sell on on Zillow or MLS or whatever zoom in to the end of that culde saac uh just or go to the South you see that little tiny parcel there I think that's to off a Yellowstone to the right there oh you see that I mean those are the type of things that we we don't want to have happen we don't want to have happen right um is anything on that I'm sure the same person adjacent own it right it's just it's messed up now yeah because it really wasn't all that orderly that look something like well you wonder if that's where the minimum lot withd and that's where it' be interesting if you were to go to the Aerials and look at like the 1980s when this was built see what houses exist or or SE or '90s right because it's all the same people who own it those three little bits yeah yeah got to zoom out cameras weren't as good yeah but you can see it at some point it it changed further north because I know a couple people who bought in lots in there and there it looks less dense than what it does now right yeah they have a lot of landlock parcels I think the other thing staff should be able to comment on is are there certain roads or areas that you know what they just can't piggy back off the public the existing public right away and I don't I haven't looked at it enough to know that because I think that there are areas that can but I would prefer we identify the areas that caned if those exist zanthus do zanthus I think it's pretty easy maybe to use that road where you know other roads it might not be well that because in zanthus they already have a bunch of houses on it yeah so it's not hurting anything especially if that's not going to become a major road but you know unless we just put these two via PUD so we have more control that way telling them what we know at the time but if it's going to be a general code that's what I want to verify no I'm thinking they should be pews because every everything's going to be unique every every every use case of this is going to be hard to and if if if we could control via the Pud how they access all their Lots from the existing public roads that would make it easier than trying to figure it all out now yep so requiring a p and it might be you know someone comes in with a uh you've got a a rectangular 10 acres or 20 acres and you just split off something that's you're going to have instances where it's going to be very simple yes a lot of the small ones will be very simple I was just looking at this one in um Maple Grove and there's a lot it's 3 acres but their Frontage on the road is 30 ft mhm but they got their driveway in and they're fine like they you know they have a longer driveway they put the house back further and it's fine and the other one that looked landlock they have the driveway along the property line of the other two people so they clearly have an easement there to go between the like that was that one yep uh another thing in our code just to be cautious of is currently our code says cux can only be 500th feet maximum I don't think we have a it's a should okay got it it's a suggestion like a lot of our do have any cloes that we actually make people follow nobody owns we're going to get into that next so acting up I was going to show you the example where we've got three I think it's only three homes that share share driveway could have been four well I know exactly what you're talking about yeah to I don't see other than that one I don't see properties okay so go back to that quickly I'm sorry or can you go to where it says Ridge courtt uh let me give you an address to type in yes thank you um 19125 81st Place North oh no that must be a sign but there's 81st yeah you're not gonna get it and now I won't be able to click around but you'll have to take my word for it a person owns that piece of land none of the adjacent property owners are the same property owner as that piece of land they essentially own a driveway that's not theirs it's a driveway to everybody else and they have a piece of land they can't sell it's valued at $1,000 and it's 04 Acres um we have yeah so we we have that now the laale this yeah I mean they essentially have a piece of land that they can't unload that's hostage yeah I mean they only pay 300 bucks in taxes on it but oh yeah I see what you're saying right on Ridge Court there that little rectangular thing that goes north south none of the adjacent property owners are the same proper the same name so that's the type of stuff we got to worry about too yep I think appleo the woods I I don't know if anybody in in Maple Grove is still there that was part of this probably not but I bet they would have some things to say about this told smallest L 5.1 Acres um okay we we're still on schedule I don't think so you got a time we're going to have a workshop Council Planning Commission I guess my question is how much time do you want to talk about this I think I think the hard part is John if we don't have and I'm putting a lot of pressure on you guys if we don't have good exhibits and guidance it the conversation just cuz this is such a big thing and kind of just keep going every direction um I think it'd be good to we get it done in an hour but it really depends on how go to presentation and choices you can present I I don't have a lot of good direction right now so yeah I can sense that yeah okay let me help that what is our what's our goals if you just had to somebody elevator speech what's the goals of of doing this I think the goal is to create more Diversified housing options in un sewered areas that don't comply with our 40 acre that will eventually get sewer water or not yeah we got to we got to say that sure we got to say that we have to say that whether they do or not time will tell because you know what in 30 years it might be there and we're all it happened um or we might not have a country who knows right Canada may just take us all over and then it's their problem so I think that's the goal I I mean I know John in your intent you had some stuff about AGR tourism is that for promoting this to the that was discussed at the last commission meeting of but do you think we should put it in the code I think we worry about that part later I know but two and a half Aces we wor about this to counil later the point is like okay so if I have I can off and now I've got $150,000 that I can build my dream Barn yeah and do you know whatever it is I want to do for Agra so did that answer your question we don't want oddly shaped Parcels we don't want landlock Parcels you say oddly shaped I say unusable Parcels like for example if you had a 40 acre parcel and you did 10 four 10 10 acre keyboard Lots mhm the the problem might be is that that's a tough cell to even someday redevelop it too M so we want to keep in mind that we do want to see the potential which is why I think you're going to see more cluster developments of smaller Lots personally because it's more can you ghost plat right of way through it um you can ghost plat you ghost ghost plat right of the way through it and then have setbacks and lot widths based off of a ghost platted right away where you require a maximum setback on one side of the house so that are is slated so if they wanted to subdivide in the future when sewer and water becomes available there is a lot there for a house I mean those are things to discuss obviously yeah so I don't have it in the slide but in the packet we have you know this example so you know here's the the before and after so that's why I want to stay away from the oddly shaped Lots because it's not about cuz that would imply that a bunch of rectangles are fine cuz someone would say a bunch of skinny rectangles are not oddly shaped I would go more with usable we want to make sure that you don't create unusable Lots basically narrow specifically super narrow lots that will be hard like that's the way that we do that so we have you know whatever the acreage is it's going to be high ground yeah and a minimum lot width but you still have to Define what those two are yeah and then I think the paved versus unpaved public like how do we tackle that um can we ghost I like the idea of ghost platting the right of way for the future just to see what it would look like just to make sure that they've thought about it right because no one's saying you have to do it this way but at least you're not creating the situation like you said with that poor person who's stuck with the or even I mean we saw it a few weeks ago at the neighborhood in champ yes I mean and this is where I know our transportation plan starts with the major roads but we might need to be thinking about some of the minor roads in these areas too to make sure that we're connecting appropriately staff needs yep it's all part of the subdivision RW you ready to move right but we're not doing a subdivision technically that's the issue we ready to move on John uh yeah I'm going to say I still don't have good direction um but we're we're going to have a workshop um I don't know if you're in a hurry so I guess one question I know we have conflicts on days so is this going to be um a Planning Commission worksh planning Comm night or a council night can we who on Council has an issue with uh Thursdays I don't have a lot of issues on Tuesdays I can usually get people to cover typically so don't don't don't base it on that okay it's not public hearing my Tuesdays and Thursdays are fine Mondays and Wednesdays the ones that are not but Tuesdays and Thursdays I've got them both open so so so no preference and Dennis there Tuesdays and Thursdays works for me and yeah I think it does for Scott got three unknown council members and then Stephanie I don't know Stephanie yeah I gota believe okay at that work session I noticed you had some language in your draft ordinance about conservation easements I guess I'm curious if we can even legally do that yeah so the tent here is we can't like if you make someone wants to get paid for a conservation easement usually when they put them on they get paid for it yeah that's how they work now we're asking them in the platting process to give it to us so with the plane un so there there's a few things going on so in our zoning code and comprehensive plan it refers to the 2030 plan that showed Greenway areas if you're in Greenway area the intent is you're you're providing some kind of an easement to protect whatever that resource whether it's they're getting something for it sometimes not in our code I mean it's the intent I know all the developers want something for it whether they get it or not really depends but yes so the code requires a conservation PUD they can get more density they can get Naro Lots they you know whatever it is part of me wonderers just John why why are we having a conservation needs went on a wet well and they can't do anything with it anyway um it it helps us with the Met Council so if we take a an area and we preserve it somehow as a public use so it's a public easement now that Nets out our our density requirement elsewhere in the city but if it's already a wetland it's not part of the density requirement um that oh well yes I I guess I I think what I'm talk thinking of is like if it's a wooded area that we want to preserve correct so yeah more like a green the green yeah they're not okay that's all right move on to storage yep I'm just going to say I still don't have good direction so I'll probably reach out to you guys in a mass email and hear some questions where I'm going with it um because I don't have good direction I'm not going to be in a hurry to schedule this as a workshop I think that's fair okay good do we have a developer that would maybe help you out with brainstorming it too uh we just looked at a plan so yeah yeah let start there I can give you the gentleman that did Beck to Farms cuz he's done a ton of them throughout R County sure of these and if you talk to him you know he might come up with some ideas can you say who that is yeah Donovan Maris Maris like that he's a real estate broker and he develops land too sure okay okay I will be brief on these um to clarify a discrepancy in the city code uh was found by an HOA representative that reached out to us that there's uh chapter 50 is the Public Works section of the city code uh requires container locations and uh be located when not in use for pickup uh located at the rear door of the house outside um while a more recently adopted chapter 1307 uh only requires containers to be within 3 ft of the home and kept in a neat and orderly fashion uh while this isn't a a public hearing uh part of the city code where this wouldn't be something you would normally see as an ordinance Amendment uh staff just wanted to let you know that there was a discrepancy found um if you have any uh issues with the way that uh an amendment would essentially eliminate that requirement that it be stored at the rear door um or if you have any suggestions on where they should be stored or if it's not an issue we just wanted to um let you know that there was this discrepancy and um an amendment uh with any type of direction would be brought forward to the city council in a future meeting um So currently that's the way that it is written and just for context I've looked through Maple Grove I've looked through Champlain looked through Rogers um there is no location requirements uh Beyond being kept in a neat and orderly Fashion on the property so basically we're going to a is what you're recommending well more so A or B A or B would be fine so the intent of being within 3T of the home is don't have them down at the end of your driveway that's that's not a proper place to store them currently they're allowed within I think a 24-hour or 12h hour time span of when the pickup is so um so it would just be deleting this part of chapter 50 or re saying that it has to be the rear which it's an Antiquated reference and then at the end of the day in terms of talking with uh Public Works director Marty uh frell he if an HOA if a neighborhood has an HOA and wants to go above and beyond what the code normally allows that is something for them to do we don't we're not in the business of trying to make an HOA like right so just wanted to bring this forward to you and let you know that this is something that uh we'll get taken care of good but the question is do you want a or b front or side matters doesn't matter 3 ft by the house I'm fine with 3et I'd be fine with striking the distance personally I think 3 ft make sure that it's near the house right not in the middle of the driveway not not in the middle of the yard it's it's that's neat and orderly so I'm going to I'm going to say I'm going to talk over both sides of my mouth my garbage cans are currently like a I would prefer them like B mine are inside my garage mine are inside my mine are inside my garage because I don't want to see that well I don't want to either and and the reason don't want to force Reon I have to be him inside the raccoons would take him down in two seconds the reason the reason I say B is um at least where we are we get like a wind tunnel yeah and they end up halfway down the street but then they're not eating neat and orderly they're not within 3et of your house I don't think every house set up it's not every if I if I had mine at B then my neighbors enjoying their front porch would be staring at the side of my garbage can I don't want to specify leave at that i' put him in the garage but the garage not isn't big enough the G the garage up with your developer garage has right by the door sounds like comply with this within 12 hours of pickup is that what you said I think it's uh I think it's within 24 hours after pickup then they got to be brought back from the right of way back to 3T of your house yes yeah especially around holidays I mean mine will sit out there for two days because I usually bring it out right and I will just note this is really just clarifying A discrepancy this is not currently something that we are dealing with in terms of active enforcement does this only apply to subdivisions uh no I believe that this uh do other homes that are different do something different than 3T from their home I guess is my question too cuz I that's where it's like we're just not that uh not that I'm aware next to their garage or their accessory building I don't sits at the end of the drive to me I don't care about the three feet I think long as it's neat and orderly covers the point yeah I think anyone I'm more acreage has too many wild has too much Wildlife to leave it anywhere but inside is structuring but anyway he sorry but that does bring up a good point within 3T of home on a detached garage within 3T of the garage would be just fine yeah three feet of a structure so well it could say principal or you know it could say 3et of a structure I yeah cuz that leaves out buildings or within 3T of the shed yeah yeah 3T of a or none orone or none have it wherever you want just don't leave the street Hayden I'm sorry but you probably want better Direction no I I think I I think I've got uh I think I've got what I need to at least uh get rid of the discrepancy and maybe uh that meeting should be adjourned at 9: no matter what what we find out the code says today 11 p.m 11 p.m. really you can go longer but you have to agree to go longer double P if it goes into a second do we get double pay yeah last one that I wanted to bring up tonight was related to a recent uh violation that was sent out based on a complaint um and it was addressed at the city council meeting uh in December uh a resident got a violation letter because he had um RVs or boat trailers parked on the grass in his rear yard um and uh after discussion between the resident and the city council uh the city council requested staff begin the process to bring an amendment forward to kind of loosen that uh in under certain circumstances um and uh basically wanted to bring this item to you to engage in a little bit of a discussion on if they were to be allowed in the rear yard or for RV RVs recreational vehicles or boat trailers um do does the Planning Commission have a thought of should there be a capacity limit on uh the number of trailers and RVs on in the rear in the rear yard parked on grass and otherwise not on asphalt or concrete um so this type of thing would be something that would come forward for a public hearing um and the Planning Commission would have a time to review it again um but while we put an amendment together to address this just we looking for some guidance on are there limitations that you would be looking for for me the bigger thing is uh leakage of fluids right so like if you store a a boat trailer the boat trailer doesn't hold gas right so it's not going to leak gas into your water and into a wetland right or if a horse trailer is not going to but like an RV like a powered RV could potentially all winter be leaking fluids onto the grasp and then depending if it's by a wetland or a stream or whatever you could be contamined water so for me that's my bigger concern is about contamination to bodies of water nearby and different vehicles are going to have more or less risk of contamination so that would just I don't have an answer but that even if it was on an improved service surface if it was in the back corner on a on a concrete SL and it was leaking it's going to go there anyways yeah and just or if it's in the front yard in their driveway it's going to go down the driveway to the curb or whatever so we to fresh water I think I think size I mean quantity quantity SI quantity and size somehow relates to our lot size so if there's a way to correlate it to the similar way there might be a different answer for R1 versus re yep exactly yep and I think that's fair um I have a neighbor in our subdivision who's got their deckboat parked right next to their Garage on on grass right now and it drives me nuts what's their address in your in our neighborhood yeah how does how are they not over the property line uh they're on the corner of uh Creek in Rush Creek there you go I think in I think in R2 and R3 a limit of one so rvr boat because those are pretty small Lots yeah it's hard enough to even get them in your backyard much I don't I don't think it's going to I think one is fine y so what and I'm I'm just classifying it as a vehicle so one vehicle on the grass and I guess my question is do we need to Define vehicle versus like a trailer I not saying we should but that's yes we do CU that's how we do enforcement our intent would be to limit this to recreational vehicles or trailers recreational vehicles and trailers only I wouldn't I wouldn't say passenger vehicles passenger vehicles would still be required in the front yard on a um Drive hard surface a hard surface yeah so R2 R3 I think it's pretty simple one it's going to like I said it's going to be hard enough to even get anything in the grass now when we say R R2 you're referring to those Parcels up there on the screen as well those are the two weaker Lots is the R2 so is that the R2 yeah that's not what I meant then you me R1 R3 R1 R3 that's what I meant was R1 R3 sure it's easier to just say one sometimes those R1 Lots can get bigger though so that's the problem I mean R3 is easy they're small well and that's that is it is it a problem or if they if it's a if it becomes a problem for the Neighbors the neighbors complain the people come in that's why we need to code so we they know what to do but and then and then if they need to apply for some sort of iupp we can look at it too cumbersome wa a look how long this took that's why just just leave it as one oh leave it as one leave it as one for R1 and R3 yeah for R1 or R3 you can park a recreational vehicle or trailer or or trailer on the grass in the rear yard in the rear yard Peter is our development not R1 we're R3 are we yeah and it could be something as well as uh R1 because there are old R1 lots that are larger and then there are new ones like Sund Dan Woods that are R1 Lots um it could be also something like so it could be a lot size thing it could be it could be lots R1 Lots under an acre or something like that so we can we can R1 yeah we can look at things like that go look at the what are we John we're all R1 yep are you Nick are you Sundance Woods yeah that's our there's no way you want a boat in the backyard in Sundance Woods no zero% chance or R3 so do you say and C you'd have to have a corner well I would maybe you say side maybe you say side yard on those so here's the thing like we have for driveways we have a 5ft setback from the sidey yard and the house is typically 7 and half to 10 ft so like you're not going to but keep in mind that's the minimum and if they can fit it there they can fit it there on their proper right that's that's what we're talking about here though just for context I did reach out to Champlin and Maple Grove Champlain allows them in rear yards and does not set a limit and the code enforcement officer did note that she rarely receives any issues with related to recreational vehicles and trailers being parked in the rear yard Maple Grove does set a limit of two um and again there's not a whole lot of uh complaint issues in their standard residential district correct nothing tied to lot sizes now that's not passenger vehicles I um it's specific to districts I mean part of it is getting it there yeah right I mean true you're going to have to be a pretty skilled driver to want to drive that past your house corner lot there's probably only four or five Lots in Sundance Woods that it would work mine's one of them but but then there's also like you'd have to want to right and you and your spouse partner would both have to be okay with this right so or the complaint is going to come from the own house my kids are going boting in the backyard this summer I'm tell you assume I mean to me whether it's in the backyard or in the front yard on the driveway it's still a boat sitting there yeah does anybody really care I mean maybe you do I I personally don't well I would think Dennis and I'm guessing that the majority of people would care if they they were sitting on their deck staring at an RV in their neighbor's backyard well I guess that's where they and how your subdivision is laid out though because your backyard like my backyard may be facing your front yard or vice versa right so like it's your side yard is your like saying that if you're garbage well and on the flip side matter guest come while your guests come over your barbecue and they're like oh look at that RV I mean it's could be a nice RV could be that's what you might be talking about even look at that RV that's a nice RV better than my RV I just think sometimes yeah I like the challenge is though that the people that were the city cuz I've lived in some cities where the stuff that ends up in the backyard never moves and it's not the stuff you want to look at right yeah whether it's an old boat get KN that Champlain and Maple Grove basically don't have issues with it yeah yeah yeah so I'm shocked they don't back we self- police pretty well I guess the champ code the Champlin code enforcement officer did note that they tried to change us a couple years ago and had massive out at the public hearing that and ended up shutting it down um that people wanted the ability to people purposely choose neighborhoods where it's allowed because a lot of neighborhoods it's not allowed period by the HOA well that's just it you have HOAs so if you've got a neighborhood where you want to be pickier about it you're more than welcome to do that and if you don't move to the neighborhood where we don't give a crap and you can have all the junk you want in the back okay so we're at one in R1 and R3 or do we do like Champlin and limit or R1 and R3 or did you want to do that R1 less than an acre and then and R3 or or just say acreage size just start with one and see if it's an issue and um again I don't know there's more there's more stuff that I can dig into as well uh in the meantime so I you know I can certainly try and see if there's any more better compex for that R2 to the question is also how many people have that many multiples right well and that's the but that's the reason to put the multiple on there is because then we don't get the three the guy store who's got five acres storing six boats for all those other people but they're already doing that and no one seems to care you have four okay I got two trailers three trailers and a can I borrow a trailer I tried he doesn't have a a title dang it no it's it's and it's not it's not so much that like I don't know it's it's more about what's the use and what what is what's the right amount that where it's not a nuisance or they're not coming in for a home you know the home extended iup like the guy in 117th did for storage you are to Dennis yeah I need my tractor sit is it six is it eight I don't know pick random numbers no I know but what's what's the right number you me I would I think it's a bigger issue in the R1 and R3 that are true typical subdivisions of the city wants to set some guidance that's where we should be focused on and the rest of it so we could be setting limitations for those those R1 and R3 properties and if anything becomes a nuisance in terms of excessive uh storage of things in the rear yard and R2 District we can bring that back and look at it the complaint that we had is in this neighborhood what is that parking on the grass so the complaint this is the complaint we had was in ion Gardens uh which is an R3 development and the um resident has three Vats in his and the but the HOA doesn't allow it they don't have an HOA Gardens doesn't have an HOA they don't no because I happen to be on their neighborhood Facebook page so I followed that conversation yeah I thought it was out they don't have any but they don't Sundance Woods does not Dennis they don't have it in there HOA but they are they were having Lively debates about putting it in there because of this and that's where this all started it seems a reason in a suburb that's R3 to limit it to one cuz these are 8,000 to 12,000 sare foot Lots okay so one R1 you can probably limit it to one but I also know there's some pretty big R1 Lots throughout the city so I don't know maybe we even leave R1 out I think most of the R1 all has HOAs to be honest cuz it was is all the the early stuff yeah or they're big and they don't care no that's why they have HOAs because when they got bigger they decided that that's what they wanted could we say less than one acre of or one RV or trailer I'd say I'd say half an acre half acre cuz we haven't seen any we haven't seen M any developments in R1 have you know they have a handful of lots that are bigger than a half acre Acres of land you can put two RVs and no one's going to care right I think I've got good direction to move forward so and we're still talking RVs or trailers not other vehicles so other vehicles in driveway okay good y okay let's keep going oh come on all right it's page two page two notice an announcement oh no uh maybe it's page bottom page one then oh is there one more we did parking surfaces that's all I got oh yeah notices and announcements I'm sorry pledge to our residents yes so we started this last year and this is borrowed from Champlin so the intention of this is is a reminder to the commission and everyone else of these five items that are are promise promises and and I'm not going to read these cuz it's late but the intention is is that we're yeah can't do it we're aware I don't want to get into reading this because it's going to prolong this into 20 minutes which would be a good discussion continue so okay all right staff updates all right we just got one I I got a few after yours for a few items these are just some development stats for 2024 and kind of our current inventory uh for platted lots that are ready and available to be built on with no permits pulled um total number of lots awaiting final plat approval um that have already gotten preliminary plat approval and then the conceptual Lots which is uh essentially DCM farms and uh the list up above is kind of the developments that have lots still available and are still progressing so when when when you look at that D of any concerns any thoughts that you want to I mean I do um so the Takeaway on this is we've got roughly if everything that's in the door now like that is under review is approved and final planed we've got got about threee supply of lots at what at what level say 2 to 250 a year okay you know last year we did two40 240 so I mean it's a healthy Supply um it's not as much as you think though it's not it's three years there's a lot of so the the over the big question for um the council and the Planning Commission probably more so with the comp plan Amendment that's comp plan update that's coming up is how do you want Dayton to grow do you want to grow south from North or do you want to grow from the outside in so essentially how we want to maybe modify the staging plan correct it makes more sense to go from the south up particularly if we're going to do the northwest corner as this new thing and that then it we don't want to keep going that direction that seems silly why do that there then so I'll say of the larger Parcels that are close to sewer and water now there's developers that are looking at all of them North and South if we go outside to in are we're then relying on Rogers for water Champlain for water champlin's we're pretty much done on that side how do you go outside I shouldn't say North when our water and SE I shouldn't say outside in but both so right now we've got two development patterns on the south side and the north Northeast should we keep growing on the northeast or should we concentrate on the south South what's wrong with the Northeast I think it's fine to do both I think there's people that want to be a little bit farther out that for me it's about resources though it's about having to like make sure we have enough police and enough fire and there always like people want schools and if you have too many people in too many areas you don't you don't have as you're always saying the rooftops right you need the rooftops in a certain place where they're not going to build new schools I think it's too late still going to cut so like if we're building say 200 houses a year and you have 100 on the south and 100 on the North it's still the same number of homes so what I was going to suggest is that when you look at the staging plan and you're doing 250 homes a year that's roughly 100 acres how we stage it is we try to Stage it in increments where 80% or 60% to South and 20 or 40% to North sure I don't think we just shut off the north I just think we allocated that more happen in the South and the north within a staging incr that's awesome until Dayton Parkway is built sure I I personally think the cat's already out our bag be it's already done something like that those things are already growing out there you've already got so many residents out there on the North and the South the more the faster the faster we grow on the North I guess I'm not concerned as long as there's a commitment then to execute on Dayton Parkway that's why I think because it's just creating a bigger Transportation issue on Fernbrook every single road because that's what they're using that is we we can't add roads we can't we're done where as South we can we can as we build them we can we can add those but on the north we just got the River Road unless the parkway happens and we know that's not happening for probably 20 30 years or something I'm going to I think it's going to be earlier but but still it adds all that and we can't support I think the most important thing with the parkway people realize and maybe Nick you can chime in is that from the point you commit to it it's a lengthy time frame before it's executed yeah yeah and so that's why you have to think about how much you let happen on the North and I don't think it'd be wise to shut off the north because now you're you just you're going to have not as much housing variety if you do that but again allow more in the South and less on the north is what I would suggest the current plant still is 100 acres on the north side yeah in current or in uh it's in 2028 yeah I'm not looking for direction I'm just saying this is going to come down the line yeah and and I know you think that you have a three-year Supply but those developers are knocking on this and there's a reason why we're only doing 250 is we only have we don't have that many active developments I mean compared to a lot of cities that have 12 I mean I don't know what does St Michael have do you even know I was actually just going to look up our inventory we're well north of 3 years of inventory we we built 302 homes last year permitted 302 um we've got a lot of inventory and the appetite for more development hasn't even slowed down yeah and I guess my more my point is is that three years if it happens to be two years or a year and a half which I don't think it's going to be that is the city prepared with if there's a lag in development cuz things take 18 to 24 months before they deliver are we prepared to absorb some of that additional taxes without that those development fees coming in and maybe we are no well it's a we got function of De so my point being is we need to make sure that we look at the staging plan in advance because what's in salt Dayton that's in current staging most of it's not going to happen um the the dean parcel will on the north side of 117 but all the other stuff is where Parkways blown through that's not going to probably happen because you need Dayton Parkway to go through and so we really didn't think about that in our staging if Dayton Parkways further away that probably shouldn't have been incurrent so what you're referring to south south of 117th west of uh East French Lake Road right yeah and even from a planning perspective is when the dean parcel north of 11 17th goes at incurrent which I'm i that's incurrent correct yeah yeah is we should be really thinking about the road connections with the Lee property and into the eventual City Center that we haven't really even talked about and you know so when that development application comes in we don't get stuck with oh we're getting rid of an X and there's not a road where we want it yep we need more roof Toops on the North so we can get that quick trip okay help um anything any other comments on that okay uh just real quickly so this is Sarah's last meeting as a planning commissioner um Tuesday it'll be quick turn around to be on the city council uh also on the the Tuesday's council meeting they'll U select a new commissioner to replace Sarah uh we had six applicants so that was good um what else uh for February we will have see we'll have a conditional use permit for an over I'm going to refer to it as oversized garage or a garage exceeding th000 Square fet um we'll also have a first round of DCM Farms so DCM Farms requires an eaw that is in the 30-day review process kind of the plan is the EA will come to the commission in March but the question is what do we do in between now and March we can look at the pre- elimate pl so if if there's anything you want to change uh you just you can request a change you just can't take action on it so the thought is uh you'll review DCM farms in February and then table it till March Lee did you catch that I C the February part my wife come back in February come back in February we're going to discuss the plat I've got I'll probably be in about my water issu because it's you got to do something about it because this this started with the development on a Le property and somewhere sure y John is this a a preliminary yes okay yep I mean there there's also a rezoning and a bunch of other stuff but yeah it'd be good to know John when that's presented to have uh council's feedback when he came in with the second concept plan just so we're aware of it you can give it to us that night but yeah give it to us that night yeah I just there was a lot that's why I want to be hear their feedback what was what's being submitted is the same as the concept plan well and and just so everybody's clear what the council talked about is likely to change with the two members the two new members where is possibly going to change members that's why it kind of surprises me he's going to do a preliminary uh what else uh then lastly uh State's manufacturing I can talk about it finally now so um St States manufacturing is based out of Champlain they've leased uh half of the cubes uh they're bringing in 340 jobs so it'll take about three years to build that out to build out their space yeah oh wow years with and find 340 people to hire so hopefully nothing changes in those three years that sounds like a long time anything else I'm hesitant but this is an easy question we have a meeting on Thursday July 3rd if you would like to change that since you're all here we could do that tonight th too CL or we've got 6 months to wait let's wait until the new Planning Commission we're going to move it we're going to move it let's vote on that but let's wait on to move it when the new planning commissioner is seated okay we can talk about that next let's table it ton next maybe then we're not at 11 yet toj second have a motion and a second to adjourn all those in favor I I all those opposed nice working with you guys e