for e I will call order the Tuesday October 8th meeting of the state city council stand for the pledge I pledge alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all i i a motion a second for the agenda I would like to add an item some discussion about our sign ordinance okay a motion and a second a motion I'll second one quick notice then also mayor if we need to add um into item P just has to be a resolution number resolution 52 2024 you can add it to either end or the beginning whatever just um nothing changes on that just added a resolution to that item okay so we got two amendments um anything else all those in favor say I I those opposed say no motion carries 5 to zero consent agenda I need a motion in a second a motion I'll second discussion yeah I have a couple of things go ahead all right uh under Item B the payment of claims on page 19 there's a charge to from kellerer Williams for $5,000 for uh Dayton Avenue um yes so is that is it Dayton Avenue or is it say for um back on here block two block one Baer oh that's um y so that's the property on item P tonight okay that is for item p and that's the earnest money to put down for the purchase agreement okay the U yeah the date and Avenue thing kind of I don't know why it says date and Avenue I have no idea okay throw me as well so good question oh it's a 17 Avenue North dayon that's the cuz there's no actual address that's why got it okay thank you and then um item f um change order one for wellhouse 5 we're switching from natural gas to Diesel and I guess um my concern around that is is that uh it sounds like it's going to be configured to have uh 24 hours of fuel and most emergency management plans require a 96-hour plan which doesn't mean you have to have that fuel on site but you need to have a written plan that says how we how are we're going to do that um that's a very good question David um I know that um I think that we we've only configured it for the 24 hours at the moment so um my problem with it is if um we keep that fuel in there at 24 uh for you know for 24 hours that's a lot of fuel in there um particularly with the seasonal stuff the idea was that we would um not have it full to capacity all the time but have a tanker truck that we could refill the the thing uh with with fresh fuel if it is actually in in service so we would be purchasing a separate uh tanker to go in the back of a pickup um with diesel in it so we could refill it as we need to um and that would probably be funded from the the the savings from this uh changing of the generator operation sure um you can also do it you know if we can get a written agreement with one of the who you usually buy your fuel from if they will commit in writing that they will service that thing within 24 hours that would be acceptable too yeah but something that needs to be thought about yeah yeah we did think about it a little there you know with the the the box for the the truck you know the fuel tank for a truck that we could get there but we can certainly talk to bodri and see if we could get an agreement with them to do that kind of thing I I do want to add one thing mayor and councel um the reason for the change is due to the service fee the service charge that they're charging for um on demand or basically standby generators now I think the charge is $750 a month I don't remember the dollar it's substantial like like a like a huge tariff on the amount of generator size for having natural gas which is why we went to diesel unfortunately we'd rather have natural gas but with that kind of tarff it is it's extreme like it was like extreme amount um and then also so moving forward we'll have to have more of these generators on standby as we get more and more facilities so an item having 24 hours of fuel just to keep it so it doesn't go bad diesel fuel does go and gel and all kinds of different things in the winter and the summer andle can be bad over time so that's why we keep 24 hours worth but we may want to look at getting something that um Marty had mentioned which is the standby just diesel pump to be able to pump those full um if we have more facilities in the future that are going to need in this diesel how are you going to cycle that fuel second how are you going to cycle that fuel uh well the generator will um uh run every month for a period of time just as a maintenance run so we will cycle it that way and refill it um otherwise we can get a a cycling pump and we can just pull it out of there into a uh into the the tanker on the back of a truck and then recycle it that way or just put it into a diesel truck or whatever and and just recycle it that way if we need to right we it's not ideal but you know it's a way yeah it's better than leaving it sit we we did look at another option which would have been a propane put a propane generator on site F the propane tank that most certainly could last for quite a while however the problem with the propane generator doesn't have enough power you can't even order one big enough to start that well up so that's the problem that we have with a propane one as there's no way to do it so we've exhausted all the options as staff um Jason and Marty and myself sat down and said what else can we do the other option was to do a diesel engine it's cheaper um most which is what you're in the change order for but there is yeah the do you know what that did you over 800 yeah a month I couldn't find the is that just like to cities and or what does their limit thought with that cuz I mean I got backup generators at my plant they on it it's just over a 1.5 BTU any loads that so it's only the the very large ones that are the larger ones and it's only new I want to make sure you know it's only new ones not anything previous we have previously where's it coming from the Tariff from c a point there we we did get the uh the lesson if you will with how the gas is supplied it's a lot more complicated than I would have ever guessed um and it has to do with those peak times when there's an outage there's actually a shortage of it so they're trying to discourage the use so paying the extra money for an inter uninterruptible service or having this on standby is actually coming with an increasingly High premium it comes down to their infrastructure and how they plan it out but trying to keep those users out there because then if they put it in there then they got to plan for it you got to make those upgrades uninterrupted your guaranteed service which means a lot of other people are not right so so sizing is something as well than I would imagine H that's unfortunate y we looked at all options unfortunately and that was the best option we had battery packs just in case yeah that's not online yet CL honestly and with natural gas you know we couldn't use them in the hospitals because they won't guarantee fuel delivery I mean you know they won't guarantee that the pipeline is up and so the diesel is you know actually the sure thing but as Marty mentioned you got to fuel isn't as toxic as it used to be so stuff wants to grow in it and you know so maintaining the fuel is has got to be part of the routine and if however you get to a 96-hour plan I think that's there's a bunch of ways to do it so I just want to make sure we were thinking about that um I guess that's it for me anybody else yeah do the uh diesels the the package come with like a winter package cuz I know like you you mentioned jelling um heaters that are in the the tanks themselves to keep that from happening I know a lot of hydraulic systems that are outside do that is this something that they kind of encapsulate I don't know the exact ins and outs of that I haven't seen the design for the gener on we're we're going through um U submitt right now on the materials back and forth to be honest it's out of my wheelhouse I don't is something that's worth asking I suspect it is because I know L cities I mean that yeah it's a big concern yeah sitting around and when you need it you need it in the winter is not uncommon so gel fuel is not a good it's not fun to fix afterwards well yeah yeah it could take our 96-h hour plan to shoot it right out the window with one quar inch frozen line right so this is something that black and Beach should know something about not or they this is this is all stanch this is all stanch black and Beach didn't they're already gone okay anybody else no that was actually the comments I wanted to make two on that item so okay um all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no consent is approved 5 to zero open Forum come on forward open Forum limited to three minutes for non-agenda items state your name and address no council Act no council action will be taken and items will be referred back to staff I understand I just want to get my three minutes of speech in here go ahead um my name is Mara Grover and I live at 11320 fbook Lane right across from where Tom Dean wants to put a gas station so I'm concerned about the gas station being built on the dean property I live directly across the street from there as do many others and I have many questions Tom Dean has not Ted talk to any of our neighbors or us at all about this my first question is what are the plans about the lights and the noise we will be having those glaring into our home all night long will we have the noise from the cars all night long number two what's going to happen to my property values and those of my neighbors why should we take a hit would you put a gas station across the street from you I bet You' not allow that why do you not respect the people who already live here number three pollution we all have wells in our front yards next to the road the gas station will be directly across the street from our wells every time it rains or snows the runoff will go right into the holding Pond right next door to the gas station every single time it rains or snows then where does the gas the oil and the garbage go do you have a responsibility to protect the people of the city number four have you done any vetting on this site is it even okay to put a gas station next to homes with wells in a holding pond have you checked with the EPA if not you're D electing your duties and should not be on this Council I contacted the EPA myself and I'm waiting for a response I'm willing to bring the state in to make this them aware of the situation and several news agencies because I know that they will do the proper vetting also we have had our water tested and we'll be monitoring it if it changes because of this gas station who will be liable I'll be willing to blame Tom Dean the gas station and the City of Dayton for all those parties responsible number five in Sarah van aston's campaign literature she gives a great example of a gas station previously proposed and says and I quote the state reports that the location is too close to a water source for a gas station and the risk of contamination is too great and that they voted no for this gas station that describes our situation exactly so you either agree with the State and you agree with Sarah or you defy the state and you call Sarah a liar and my last question is when will the city start standing up for the residents who already live here instead of walking all over us for the rights of people who won't live here for years there's going to be a gas station on Dayton Road there's one at the trailer park without driving on County Road 81 you can get to that there's one being built on Dayton Parkway in '94 you can get to that without driv driving on County Road 81 there's one in Maple Grove Parkway next to Target accessible without driving on County Road 81 and if you just need gas you can always go to kishes on 113th that's five gas stations you can get to without having to drive on County Road 81 so I'm asking you to start sticking up for the people who already live here and pay your salaries do your jobs and research these things thank you thank you thank you I'm going to comment Marsha I just want to number number one there is there's no gas station that is going there yet it's talked about but it's not there but I read minutes and well it's not there people are really liking it so okay Council planning and councel but they're not taking us into consideration okay and have you done your betting on this is it is it even leg to put a gas station in the neighborhood full with Wells I guess to me it doesn't even it's not there so it's not even to me worth talking about yet well when when it is there think about it okay we haven't seen the plan yet so anybody else oh I have CL up it kind of connects with what she is saying it's okay um you know who nameing it yep name and address my name is Kathy Powers I live on 11461 turn Brook L and the one thing that I I have heard is that the dean plan is going to be split between residential and Commercial and I'm just wondering if that's a true statement or it's going to be all in one plan um yeah so if you watch the the last Planning Commission they covered that the the commercial will be uh different it'll be a different conent plan different yep so we'll have two conent plans for the dean yep property yep um okay so Mr Mayor so right as as of right now it's just one concept this is the same one we saw a couple weeks ago but it will be different platings as in final platings corre yeah correct so when so the concept plan is for the entire project and then when they preliminary plat it will be for the entire project and then they will final plat as they go along if the commercial area is not able to be done in a commercial sense then they will adjust that final plat to have apartments or town halls or something other in that area so there will be a preliminary plat yes there has to and there will not be a concept plat for commercial cuz that's not how I took the we've had two concept plans already so the next step is the preliminary that will be the whole project whole thing and the commercial will come in a phase yes one of the phases of the development so you'll do the residential first whatever Tom wants to do or say the developer whatever the developer wants to do so he could do the commercial first and then the residential later so when are we going to know about this when's he on the docket he is not submitted that I'm aware of so he is not we don't have a clue we don't yet we don't have a clue so far it's just an idea there is no actual concrete plan yeah there's no plan it's an idea mhm y okay y okay it looks pretty concrete to my my the the preliminary pla is what it actually be would would go into con what do you want to call concrete the next step in the process is the preliminary plat which has not been submitted to staff yet so I don't have an any idea when it will go on but there'll be a public hearing and everything else think you were last night he's coming out to my house right now just to tell me how many trees he's taken down in the meain time so at least he's talking to you Cathy okay anybody else number are you good Kathy are you good huh are you did you want to say more are you good no I have another question okay well okay now I understand there's going to be some kind of open house for the Dayton City Center on October 15th right I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make it so I had a couple questions first of all you're going to have an open house it's already built right no no no so who gets to vote on this and who's funding this I'll try to provide some clarity to this um so this is a master plan process as when we're trying to plan out an area there is no concrete plans there is no for shures there's no anything it's just trying to get an idea on paper of what we'd like to see as a city council in the next comp plan not as in this current comp plan but the next comp plan as in doing some um background work right now um what year is that the next comp plan will be approved in 2028 to 2030 hopefully that's the plan so there's a few more years for year yep so the reason for the master plan process is to get some background in that in that area and then we will do that over time um but there's no dollars or we're not the open house is to provide information to Residents so that they can provide feedback and that will be held at the activity center and then there will also be an agenda item at the city council for in in the future the future yep that's correct 2028 or so on it'll be that master plan will be before that but the comp plan is what it's doing for which is will be in 2028 or so all right well I guess that answers my question thank you thank you thanks hob up here name and address keth Grover 11320 for [Music] I guess I'm not really vocal a lot when it comes to City things and at least not in my adult aged years I guess I was when I was younger but one of the things that that really bothers me is this the development that you know that the two ladies were talking about I understand that we're not going to stay rural I mean I'm not naive enough to think that but the way that we're we're putting all of this together especially with this concept plan that that Tom Dean has put forth and you that we had a copy of and we had a Planning Commission meeting on there's a lot of things about that plan that bother me one of them obviously is a gas station you know 300 feet from my well I mean those of us that have lived in Dayton all our lives and I've lived in Dayton since 1962 I grew up here I raised my family here stayed here because of you know the Ambiance of Dayton that's not going to be there anymore I know it's changing but the way it changes and what it looks like when we're done is up to you guys some of the previous councils have really screwed some of the things up here but it's up to you guys to move us from today forward when I look at that plot development I look at the lot sizes they put in there my God I mean when I was a real little kid my parents lived in a trailer court in West Fargo and I think our a lot that our trailer was on and West farg was bigger than some of the Lots they proposed to build houses on in this new development that Tom has proposed there the idea of of that is just blows my mind but the the gas station itself we get punished every time those of us that live here that we make development in Dayton and again I know that's going to happen but we live on the on 121 everybody gets in and out of Dayton you know from those new devel velopments on 121 the traffic there is atrocious but it's it's it comes in in bunches it's very very busy in the morning during rush hour and then it lacks off during the day and then in the afternoon again like from 3:00 to 6:30 or 7:00 it just becomes crazy again but there are some there are those lull times in between if you put a Convenience St in a gas station across the street from our house there will be no l times anymore we're talking about 20 247 noise pollution people racing around with their cars people coming to get food I mean that's not what Dayton should look like what Dayton should look like is is rural I mean that's what the citizens of Dayton asked you guys to do years ago is to try to keep Dayton the feel of it as rural as possible I I don't see that happening with a plan like this and with putting commercial development in the middle of you know of houses what used to be egg I watched them combine the last beans two days ago I mean I'm going to be looking at houses there I mean I get that you I know that's not going to change but I don't want to look out my window and see a lit up gas station like you know a quick trip or you know Bobby and Steve's down in Maple Grove you can wi any time of the day you go in one of those places they're busy constant noise constant traffic I don't want to see that and I don't think that belongs in the middle of a Housing Development the new development on the west side of 121 is one thing we also have development on the east side those of us that have some property that have a little bit bigger pieces of property that would like to stay that way and like to be able to live in Dayton for the rest of our lives and for some of us in our 70s maybe that's not that long I don't know but I I'd like to stay around for a while I just don't see that as helping Dayton in in doing that if that actually happens um those of us that live on that street we're going to be living the difference and the difference is not good it's not good at all and it's up to you guys to help us with that I mean that's why we elect you um that's why we ask you to look through these things and put things in the proper places put commercial where it belongs put the you know the businesses where they belong right in the middle of a Housing Development that's not it I'm sorry guys thank you thank thank you okay okay I was at the Planning Commission do I have to say my name again yeah oh gosh darn it Kathy powers 11461 for in Brook Lane okay I was at the Planning Commission uh and I understand that the Met council is going to be changing going from three per acre to four per acre now when I went home my husband and I did some calculation and he he's from the North Minneapolis side so he knows what uh crowned uh block is so when we calculated this out if you go to North Minneapolis and you look at their block size that is currently what the med council is saying four houses per block that's what it is if you want to look at it go there and I'm sure South Minneapolis and all the Metro areas are basically the same but I think they're crazy and I think we ought to push forward and I think we ought to um tell them that this is not what we're going to do and I know other Counties have been or other cities have been successful with a met Council so when they put us down as suburban rural or whatever it is that's not rural that's North Minneapolis thank you they a visit there okay thank you that's it thank you we have anybody online no okay let's move on to staff consult Council updates Zach even mayor and Council have a couple of updates tonight um I wanted to provide we received some additional positive news that was not Incorporated in the memo that was just approved in the cons agenda um from which is that shipo has provided us a letter of some mitigation factors to consider um our team at sanc who has been running with this environmental review was very positive about the response in the letter so let's hope that either options two or three which were provided in the memo tonight um are no longer needed um I will provide and keep everyone updated as I learn more but I have not heard back from um HUD our federal um house basically that's been housing the grant yet at after I provided them the letter and our response to that letter so okay um I will provide both those letters this week to the council so you have those letters so you can see what they say um I want to clarify a comment that I made at the last council meeting as well and was mentioned by um the mayor about some free firefighters um I think people took it as it actually free and I want to clarify that comment because it is critical because what it was meant and what was the amount of dollars were needed um for two full-time firefighters and establishing a duty crew within the fire department for the paid on call Firefighters is the same dollar amount as moving all paid on call Firefighters to $30 an hour with the same model that we operate today so those two models of fire two full-time firefighters additionally to what we have currently and establishing a duty crew and paying all paid on call Firefighters for $30 an hour is the exact same dollar amount so in terms of where we are today there's an increase in Levy dollars no doubt but the increase is the same for either of those situations ation which I previously explained so I want to make sure that we look at those and make sure it's not free technically is not free is just the same dollar month for either one of those models so something you had mentioned to me that we should probably clarify um I was under the impression that when we abandoned or dissolved the um Pion fund relief that that's why we looked at bouncing the hourly pay up to compensate for that but it sounds like now they're going to get per they have to go into some sort of retirement that is correct and so that tells me that we need to reconsider that and that might make that whole deal even better than free is what that would my understanding yes so that would make it if you were to say we want to do the two full-time firefighters with the Dy crew model and pay the Dy crew model of the paid on call Firefighters a less dollar month than $30 an hour yeah it would be less dollars than the current month model at $30 an hour for all firefighters that is correct except that's not the current model that is not the current model that is correct the current model would be if we were to move every what was in the budget that was approved in the preliminary Levy was that all paid on call Firefighters would get paid $30 an hour and they would we would run as we do today which is um a pager system that as many show up as possible y basically so that is correct um and on a more positive note um appreciate the dialogue back and forth I want to um today I was able to work with the public Orcs department for a full day provide more insight to myself about how they operate I greatly appreciate the Crew putting up with me today and showing me their ropes um I'm sure there are pictures so we will see when those show up I'm not sure when they will um I will be doing the same thing with the police department and the fire department as well so stay tuned on when those will be this is one of my goals this year was to be able to um quote unquote a day in the life of those departments to really see what it's like when they're working and doing things and what things operate like and how things work and um it was very it was very good I had a great day were you guys out at the water tower this morning the water tower I seen that so you got to see the inside of the thing you see the inside of the water tower which is not as exciting as you think yeah exactly right thank you very much Amy um elections are underway uh so balloting starts next Friday so on October 18th as a reminder Fridays we are open until noon um we were also going to be open two Saturdays and a Sunday um if you have any questions about voting please give me a call come in make your vote count which Saturday is and Sunday uh so we're open October 26th Saturday from 9:00 to 3 and then November 2nd from 9:00 to 3 which is a Saturday and then that's Sunday the 3rd November 3rd from 9:00 to3 um and then Tuesday the 29th so the Tuesday prior to election day we're open until 700 p.m. for additional voting hours how has the turnout been so far um it's been pretty good we've had around 100 voters so far since um absentee is open so I anticipate that um more on the uptick as as we get to the 18th which is the direct balloting where you stick your ballot directly into the ballot counter as you do on Election Day also at that point is the no clawback date so um technically right now if someone had voted they could come in and spoil that ballot and vote a different way um but after the 18th you have your decision made really you know uh mayor and Council I have a couple of things um The Mill and overlay project um is uh finished this afternoon they finished the shouldering this afternoon at 400 p.m. they were supposed to take the signage down so it'll be back to full traffic um sometime thereafter so from now on it should be open to full traffic they do have a couple of items remaining but they will be done under traffic they've got to uh do the permanent striping on there and I think there's still some turn Lanes to to mark on there as well um they kind of clarified some of those so like I noticed the the the turn Lanes on River Road and Pine View um cuz for a while I looked like you were they were actually directing traffic right right into each other into each other did you drive at night and get confused on that too yeah I just thought that was bizarre I amum I I probably I can't come on on that I would imagine maybe don't I want to yeah me and somebody were like I was like I don't know if you're supposed to be if I'm not supposed to be here yeah you couldn't tell which lane you were supposed to be in and if you're in the left and they were in the left you're have on sure I don't know what what they do that we'll find out one way or another um and then uh well four um I got a bit of an update for that um is basically two two parts to this uh problem uh the pump is being rebuilt that was damaged at the bottom of the well um so that's being rebuilt at the moment uh that's a cost of I think somewhere around $33,000 um we're looking at what caused the issue um we will be putting a camera down the world to see you know what we can find out from that um in the hole there um not 100% sure what we will see but we'll televise it and see what there is currently um from our uh measurements there's 100 foot of material that's dropped off and is sitting on the bottom of the well in the bottom of the well cavity um we're thinking this is some sand that was uh dislodged when we did the uh um uh the explos down the hole um although we did pressurize the well and expected that all to come off when we pressurized the well and we did significant uh pumping to and bailing to get that sand out of the hole and it did run clear at the time uh you when when we put it well into service it was all where it needed to be so we didn't anticipate anything else uh the theory is you know once we put it into service and started drawing a lot of water this must have dislodged this and it's gone into the bottom of the hole So currently there's 100 ft at the bottom of the well that is just sand um so um the solution to that is probably going to be to pressurize the well again to dislar any of the other sand material that's loose um and then uh suck it all out of there um bail it all out um that's probably going to be a two-month project um this is probably not going to happen until December um every all the wild Drillers equipment is out and about currently and some of it's out until the end of 2025 currently so um we're working with trout and Rena to get costs and timelines from them to do that um we're also trying to work out what's the optimal thing to do here whether to put the the pump back in there um and just use it as a backup pump to well to to minimize the work on that uh the wear on that or if we just hold off and don't put it in and and do the you know the well rehab um before we put it back in so there's a number of things that we're working through on that um I haven't got costs from uh the two wild drilling companies yet um but that's kind of where we're at the decisions and timelines are going to be the key part of this I think okay so I'll keep you guys in the loop as I found out more on this so using well to would be a shortterm say again using well to would be a short term yeah well to is a short term we uh currently we're seeing a downturn a little bit um we're down to 800,000 gallons a day on that so we're coping with that if the irrigation keeps you know going down we should get if we get down to that 250,000 gallons a day then well two will be sufficient for us to you know it will buy us time to get this done and there's no other well as a backup on that system no because it's well five which goes into the well head treatment plant which we are kind of stuck with as well at the moment so so thinking worst case scenario what's our backup plan if well two decides to not work um bold water I guess B water okay there is no back saying you got to start planning for those yeah so originally the the backup plan for this was to we have the link up to Champlin and that was the the backup plan when this was designed um have you not so now we know that uh they can't Supply our requirement now now um since we tried it a couple of times given it was irrigation season and they could only service 35 homes but going forward we will have enough Wells once well 5 is online and well four is back up and running we will be in a much better position I think the idea is to always have a redundant pump yep that you uh you know sitting on I think we calculated that we need eight Wells but we would drill nine you know for the total you know we system um so you've always got that redundancy there we're not there at the moment and that's unfortunate but you know this is where we're at and hopefully we can get through this and well 4 and five will you know be able to you know suffice if we have this kind of thing Uh I that well five uh the plumbing was configured such that we could bypass the uh the uh treatment facility with 125 so again I thought we could bypass the no we can't because there's no treatment in there there's no chemical treatments it's just a raw Water Production well oh I see okay and the treatment goes in well head treatment mhm okay one other thing um Danielle asked me to mention the pumpkin Trail uh We've currently got a lot of interest in the pumpkin Trail we've got very few pledges for the carved pumpkins so um we need to get um people to go on to the web website and fill out a pledge form to bring their car pumpkins uh to drop off at the public work site all the details uh uh on the website um without a car of pumpkins we've got no Trail so that they are key to this whole operation is there like a minimum number you're trying to hit no not one got it I think if they both show up be good we do have we do have more than one right now but it would be very spread out okay be going on the trail between clo and Elie Stevens Park yeah if there's only two it might be a bit of a stretch to get between the two see you could use about 50 of them for sure you volunteering Scott no it's a l of Carvin I I might be able to find 10 or so good evening mayor members of council uh Sunday we had our open house was very successful so thanks to Mayor Fischer and councilman tro for stopping out uh for that um Wednesday uh tomorrow I guess uh we be at Dayton Elementary um doing public education there as we do annually every year so we're excited to do that as well so perfect that's what we like to hear um mayor members of council I did want to ask a question as it relates to uh I forget the name now the hurricane that's broing Milton thank you I was thinking helina but Milton uh often the Emergency Management assistance compact gets activated in these situations especially with the category five potentially downgraded to a four if it does hit um they often ask for uh fire department's assistance so I wanted to inquire with Council if they would support that initiative if we were asked to go I don't know what they'll ask for but um like to ask that in advance just in case we do get uh if people are interested within the department to be employed so and if there's any questions that you may have in regards to that would you guess as to how many we're talking about I probably would not send more than four is my guess at a Max and then depending on their requirements um they usually are very specific in their asks and then often I can't guarantee this but often with Emergency Management assistant compact that is reimbursable back to the department through FEMA um typically would that be you an assistant chief asup or would that be forward other people no we're going to look for uh we'll have one of us will be here and then we have other people that have expressed some interest if that comes up in the future or does come up I guess I have no problem think you got your answer okay thank you mayor council members uh I have nothing for the department at this time unless you guys have questions good no good I escaped that one John uh real briefly the last uh council meeting plan commission we talked about the Met Council wanting to increase net density to from three units an acre to four um we the we did send a response to the Met Council yesterday um and we'll send the letter out to the council in the Friday updates no uh Dave covered the sign ordinance conversation that we're going to have uh as far as the seal coating M are they going to be striping some of that what you say again as far as the Seal Co coding that was done are they going to be striping all that yeah the striping has been done that was there there was some uh crosswalks that weren't striped um because uh the plan set was sent out with a Google map that didn't have the striping on it was I think that the Google Map was taken in April and we put that's striping down in May or June so there's I think four crosswalks that are missing off of that and is zburg getting striped at all no no okay it's never been stri it's never been strip but no okay want strip do I want to yeah I'm not going to do okay why would we think said do you want it strip maybe the right question rri it should be I mean why would we not why would we not how much is it to say do Zanzibar I we never have we just yeah may we never because it's such a never had it strip just my only concern is it's kind of become a change I mean it doesn't matter but I think it'd be minimal but we'd have a company do it yeah yeah we added it to another project depending on the materials I mean maybe it's 45,000 that much to stripe that road depending on the material you got all the way all the way to 12 yeah I get that there's two miles there it's spending pretty yeah I mean you're going to stra stripe the parking lot I'm assuming yes so that outfit could do that they can't they hope fully book that we've asked the question already this busy time of year it would probably be better to do it next year are there standards for when we stripe and when we don't stripe not necessarily okay yeah okay I think the question is does the council want it to be striped if the answer is yes and we will look into it is it striped in front of the Public Works building Poli station no it's not no not at all nor is the southide yeah I know we're talking about the south side that was my question was on the North side done I I guess if we don't I have no preference you have an opinion may maybe it makes it look look more rural if we don't huh yeah mayor council members uh I don't think we've seen any traffic issues down there no cross over Lanes no hazardous anything that we've seen okay and that's during we're coming up to the pumpkin season SE in patch time too so not that we've seen okay anything else I'm good Travis uh just attended and participated in uh the Sunday open house for the fire department it was well attended and thanks for all those that showed up I have nothing Dave uh nothing from me Matt I've got nothing new to add all right on to item J um what do we do in fredom J I'm a little confused by that mayor members of council the reason why this item is on reason why this item is on here is because we sent out notifications in the beginning of September Y and notified all of the delinquent letters that went out that said that we will be a public hearing on 108 um we failed to put the notice in the paper in time to have a public hearing um which is an oversight on staff so we have to move the mood public hearing to the 10 20 the 22nd meeting in October we wanted to make sure that everyone who got the letter if they're looking come and talk on the 8th were able to notify that we didn't I see I see it's here yeah I was wondering why you didn't just pull it out but yeah that answer is it doesn't be a public hearing at all I just want to make sure it's not all right so item J is oh wait nothing happens on item J just note it and that's all it okay all right item K this be interesting May Council yep we have Peter lman here with the Morris letherman company here to give a presentation on the quality of right good perfect it's a pleasure to be here with you to go over the results of the survey we conducted for the city um just to remind everybody the methodology we spoke with 400 randomly selected residents yeah make that go away across the city the surveys were completed back in August between the 1st and the 21st average interview time was 14 minutes we had 6% stand on the phone with us for over 45 minutes of their own valtion um they're what we call the community historians my Founders don't get paid by the hour uh they get or by the interview they get paid by the hour so um there's just they have a lot to say uh non response rate was 55% the margin of error in a 400 sample is plus or minus 5% in 95 out of 100 cases so the the sample size determines the margin of error not the percent of the population so a 400 and City of Dayton a 400 in hennipen county or 400 across the state of Minnesota is always plus or minus 5% uh putting up some demographics so you can see a profile uh cell phone only households were 65% uh landline only households they still exist 8% and then 27% have both cell phones and landlines continuing with some demographics how long has the respondent lived in the city of Dayton we have 22 % that have been in the city for 5 years or less well we have 29% over 20 years um so you can see there's pretty much a divide right at 10 years the typical resident has lived here about 12 1/2 years um the typical resident is about 43 years old we have 32% 18 to 34 year olds while we have 30% over the age of 55 22% indicate that they have a senior in their household well 40% indicate that they have a child um the the level of financial stress versus Financial financially comfortable um you're actually unique in the metro area um what we found in the last couple months across the state and across the Metro is about 50% indicating they're financially stressed um the financially stress stress at 35% here is actually very similar to Southwestern henpen County and those communities um so it's not as high to give you an idea though that impact of inflation and pandemic and all of it before the uh pandemic the norm was about 26% financially stressed so it's up 10 points but it's still down from what we're seeing women outnumbered Men by 4% in the sample uh first off before we've talked with them about anything we always ask some general questions uh how would they rate the quality of life in Dayton uh 95% rate it favorably 4% say only fair um typically what we're seeing right now the pandemic has dampened enthusiasm about everything okay if something was excellent It's now good if it's good it's only fair uh for a favorable rating we're seeing about 85% so you're about 10 points higher but where you're much higher is the excellent rating the excellent rating has dropped in the S County Metro to about 14% indicating things are excellent um so that's three times the level of enthusiasm and in Minnesota it's difficult to get motans enthusiastic about anything okay so often times when you ask is something excellent or good they say good you ask them what could make it excellent half of them will say nothing good is good enough um so it really is telling the enthusiasm they have about living in the community now what do they value this is open-ended they can tell us anything they value small town attributes write down the list safety quiet and peaceful friendly people parks and trails rural open space all the way down you really only get the quintessential Suburban responses when we get down to close to job close to shops and services it's overwhelmingly a profile of what people resonate and value living here are those small town attributes now what do they think is the most serious issue facing the community once again this is open-ended they can tell us anything we only have one item that hits double digits now I always look first is something at 25 30 35% you have one in four one in three people coalescing around our response that's a serious issue in the community um 20% at too much growth leads the list you know if I look back historically you know we were working with the City of Woodbury during the Boom in the90s and going back to that survey the most serious issue too much growth was in the high 40% level at that point in time so it is mitigated from what we've seen in other high growth areas it does lead the list um everything else single digits high taxes as a topof the Mind response is about half of what we're seeing right now that's typically between 15 and 20% I'll go more in depth in taxes uh in a little bit when we ask some specific questions um and the other thing I would point to then is at the bottom the nothings those folks are boosters they see no problems in the city of Dayton it's Utopia here um and what we found during the pandemic is there are a lot less boosters in communities before the pandemic the norm was 12% um now it's down to about 6% so you're about 4X the number of boosters that we typically see in 2024 overall evaluation of the direction of the city 89% gives say the city's moving in the right direction 6% say the wrong track Norm on this right now is 80% how do they view the city of Dayton do they view it as a small town or do they view it as a suburb uh the majority see it as a small town at 56% 27% indicate a suburb while 16% hedge their bets and say some of both um and so you know if we comp a lot that both you have 72% relating to the city in some way and seeing it as a small town while 43% see it somewhat as a suburb at a time of growth this is always an important question our services been able to keep Pace with the growth absolutely 85% indicate that they have uh if I look at other high growth communities over the last 30 years of doing polling uh the typical is about 75% ring there's always something and it's typically Street Maintenance that has not been able to keep up but we're going to look at your Street Maintenance in just a few slides actually we're going to look at Street Maintenance right now uh an overall evaluation of city services we asked if they rate them excellent good only fair or poor I've collapsed down the excellent Good Into the Blue bars the red only fair poor um for that so we do see a sea of blue instead of a red Rip Tide a couple items where to point to um City drinking water has the highest level of unfavorability um in talking with staff folks are nodding um that 38% I can't make a comparison because this depends on the aquafer from Community to community what a folks tolerance is what their expectation is um so it's something to flag this is the first data point in the ground of what public opinion is on drinking water um a couple other items storm water runoff and drainage we've seen that up in 2024 especially with all the rain that we had in April May June as a concern across the metro area and the other item I'd point to is the Street Maintenance at 20% that actually is outstanding uh the norm right now in the 7 County Metro is 60% favorable to 40% negative um so with one in five being concerned on Street Maintenance you'll never have 100% on Street Maintenance everybody will have a pothole uh that's an outstanding rating when it comes to uh the maintenance I mentioned as a top of the Mind response folks concerns and the most serious issue on taxes and it was about half of what we see um but when we ask it directly how do they feel about their City portion of property taxes we have 57% say high 38% say about average we do have 3% low I can share their names and numbers um I'm kidding it's strictly confidential um but the 57% I would classify the city as a hostile tax climate now I classifi just about every community in the S County Metro as a hostile tax climate since 23 what happened in 22 is in the spring people got their assessment they saw their property value was going up 20 25% and they were happy think only about 5% of those people realized what that would do to property taxes so what happened November 15th of 2022 was literally somebody flipped a light switch on on property tax hostility and we went back to where we were in the late 990s when we had the taxpayers league coming in um and so it's Abad a bit but you're right at the norm we're seeing in 2024 uh what's the high in the past 12 months a community in Ramsey County was at 77% very high and somewhat high do you have questions now or at the endend that's do now there's a lot of slides so yeah if there's something instead of going back absolutely this one I I wonder you know do we I wonder how many people actually know which portion of their taxes are are dating taxes right versus the county or the school district and yeah most most people see it as just a lump this is an overall EV evaluation of total property taxes at the end of the day yeah and I mean there are some cities where they get the dat and they see people think they're high and they're actually low in comparison then it's a Communications effort with the community okay Lear something yeah it's it's a comparative because once again this isn't are they right or wrong it doesn't matter it's public opinion this is what they think this is what they hear but you're absolutely right I mean we you know some cities will ask you know what percent of your taxes goes towards the city well 25% of people say have no idea what you're talking about um and so you know it it is an overall perception on taxes absolutely anything else at this point to go back or just just stop okay this is really an important chart keeping in mind you have 57% saying their taxes are high this question to me is the most important question in any City survey because it asks when you think of the property taxes you pay and the services you receive how do you rate that value keep in mind 57% said they're high only 14% rated the value only fair 84% rated the value positively so even if they have a concern on the property taxes they're getting a value for the property taxes they're paying now concerns on response time at this point in time um it's not a concern to the community as a whole for either of these on police response time 8% say it's a major concern uh well 29% say it's a minor concern on the fire response time 9% major concern 37% minor concern so it's really not out there in the community on to have a concern on the response time so if we ask folks then if they uh like a proper would be willing to pay a property tax increase to fix the response time they're not necessarily aware of the problem right now um so and the Let's Make a Deal to uh increase property taxes to reduce police response time we have 34% that say nothing we have 27% at $3 23% at 6 and 10% at $9 or more the typical resident if we take out the nothing they're not going to support anything those that are willing to see a property tax increase it's about five bucks a month at this point in time now there's no doubt that if there was more concern there would be more willingness it would be not an expansion it would be a maintenance and a safety issue similarly on a property tax increase for the construction of a third fire station we have 37% say nothing 45% say 10 bucks a month and then it just drops off a cliff um so it's about $8 a month the typical residents willing to see uh for the construction of a fire station on both of these issues I would say you know the issue is not ripe in the sense that the community is not aware of an issue or a problem because we know from the history of working with cities you have passed a lot of referendums and worked with cities on Public Safety buildings and those sorts of things when the community determines there's a need people will invest in public safety absolutely where did the uh how did you get a 10 for a bin level what's that the fact that you was 10 in there instead of say three or four well you do have I I take out the nothings because I just consider they're not going to support anything so those that are willing to support something the 133% pulls it up a little bit maybe 12 bucks a month for those that have a tolerance if if we include if we include the nothings then it goes down to about $4 a month right well I guess what I'm getting at is this if you go back to the the the police yep um that is more of a graph I would expect to see on something like this yep uh but this one it was it looked to me like your bins were were just way too high my guess is a lot of those 45s felt that nothing wasn't a good answerers so they went up to the next level well or or they're not ready to jump to 20 bucks there's a bigger the the scale was set you know in in talking with the city you know we set the scale for what the median point is so I think we you know we said you know to reduce police response time you know it'd probably be in the $8 to $10 range so I set the middle of the scale at nine if I just did 1 2 3 four five dollar a month then it's then what's included what would be needed not set at the scale and then similarly I had to SC set this scale at $10 increments when we looked at the potential cost for a third fire station and so I mean we find this you know in all the bond referendums we work with with school districts it's always a big jump when you go from 10 to 20 um that's you know that's you know some districts you know you can go to 30 but the Comfort level at the outset for folks is typically always about $10 a month and realizing that once they understand the need they're willing to go up um but that need has to be established speeding on residential streets uh 58% indicate it's at least somewhat serious of a problem with 18% very serious 42% indicate not too serious or not at all so would they be willing to support reducing the speed limit to 25 M an hour on residential streets in the city yes 71% indicate that they would 23% indicate that they would not if we look at intensity it's 21-6 it's better than 3:1 uh in strong support versus strong opposition um then the next piece is would they be be willing to support the use of additional city funding to enforce the 25 mph speed limit yes they would 62% of the community supports that so this is one where they see the issue the first chart where we had almost 60% indicating it's at least somewhat serious they're willing to support policy changes and we're seeing this right now across the metro area the concern on speeding reckless driving not really distracted driving anymore um even I live in Champlain it was number one at the safety list in Brooklyn Park it led their City survey as a public safety concern was speeding and reckless driving uh so folks really are um willing on this one to support the use of city funding to combat it City managed trash collection like I said I've been doing this 30 years this one is never a winner either way I'm from Wisconsin I will never understand Mota's affinity for their trash collectors um this is what you call a uh pollsters nightmare we have 44% favor 44% oppose and 12% are unsure like I said I've been doing this 30 years I think the highest level of support we've ever had was 52% on on this typically it's about 30 to 35% so you're a little bit higher on support levels okay uh a little bit higher on support levels uh but still it's a tie if they support switching over I'm just getting some feedback I'm sorry okay okay if we look at reasons for support it's less trucks low lower cost if they oppose they want to choose they 10% the lower cost so you can see the competition the cost Factor 10 9% think it's going to be lower under City manag 10% think it's lower under um the current system and 10% talk about getting birthday cards from their haulers I mean they've developed a relationship with their hauler it's interesting when we ask this series of questions and we ask folks do you think in it it's better under an open system or a city managed system this really reflects what we see in communities it's it it really comes down to that people understand the benefits for an open system uh they view the benefits as the cost for trash collection and customer service being better that that will cause feedback uh on the city manage it's pollution from trucks it's pedestrian safety and it's wear and tear on the streets um so it really is where do you hit your Wagon on the argument what do you value value more even I hear it the the the wear and tear on streets pollution truck traffic or cost and customer service and the relationship that's been developed with your holler so wouldn't this be a much better question if there was a cost um an idea of the cost because if if there was a f yeah I mean if we could say it'd be you you know you currently pay X under this system you'd pay y um we have been a few cities a few cities have been wanting to put the number out there okay this is what it's going to cost we've gone down the road we've explored it it still comes back overwhelmingly it's Mom apple pie and the right to choose garbage in Minnesota is it my cell phone or something okay some feedb there okay turning to development are there de is there development folks would like to see in the city of Dayton not really no uh 59% say no there's nothing they'd really like to see 11% double digits this is open-ended say retail and services and then you have everything from entertainment to jobs to more schools to a community center but over overall they're pretty satisfied with what's here what's interesting is is there something they would strongly oppose no not really either you really kind of on this one if you look at it as a bell-shaped curve you have equal amounts not opposing anything not really supporting anything there's really kind of a status quo comfortable level of where folks are at right now you know things that come up any housing low-income housing big box retail bars uh those sorts of things but it's all background noise on what folks would like to see uh would they support providing Financial incentives for development uh people would like to see in the city absolutely this changed after the recession of 2008 2009 before that um people it was basically a two to one opposition and with the recession what happened across the state on this issue is people understood that there was competition for development um and so the 90% support level it's typically somewhere between 80 and 90% now in communities indicating that they support the financial incentives so how do you question incentives for development so like tax incentives for to get development into the city for housing or for just develop about tip right well one option one option so how do you how do you correlate this to the fact that they're saying they want no development yeah they want it's going to be targeted let me get to okay go let's do this slide so City characteristics going through this is set up like a stoplight red too much stop no more green bring it in yellow it's about right uh across the board you know if we just look holistically it's a majority in the about right category but as you evaluate this list I always say look at the too many versus the twoo few and it will net out one way or the other the direction the community is looking on the red side high-end housing it's 177% more indicating there's too much um the other two items uh trails and and uh bikeways um it's a perfect bell-shaped curve 21% on either side on Parks and Open Spaces 6% too much um and so in even in the manufactured mobile homes the rental apartments um it kind of balances where do people want to see there's too few too little starter homes 36 to 14 go down to affordable housing at 35 to 11 then assisted living and one level uh uh uh Association living 3935 and then job producing businesses service retail entertainment restaurants now for for the growth area you're at the service retail entertainment and restaurants is lower than we would typically see at this point in development um and I think part of it is the location with Champlain to the East Maple Grove um as you you know the discussion on the gas stations you have everything there's it's really a convenience level you can go one way or the other and kind of get those Services it's not like a Woodbury uh or Burnsville back in the day that had 70% of people saying they want more rest restaurants because they really didn't have those options for them but the focus is on the housing piece on the starter homes affordable housing and the senior living options and what we we see this in communities that have high ratings on the quality of life people want to stay here so if they get ready to move on out of their house and downsize they want something for them on the other end the starter and affordable they want a place for their kids to be able to live in in uh Dayton in the future so it's that life cycle housing concern coming into play so that's where the support for the financial incentives come in uh for the in the the types of development that they would like to see looking at this chart what's the difference between the starter homes and the affordable all wording yeah it's a back in the day we used to say affordable housing um starting at you know whatever the Met council's number was um and affordable housing was kind of a dirty word it's not anymore because people now see it it it's it comes with the housing market and everything coming in play and so basically it it mirrors the starter home uh you know and that it's it's a place for their kids to come back to the community for turning Park and wreck uh 90% favorable on the facilities only 9% say only fair or poor do the current amenities meet the needs of your household yes 90% indicate currently they do a couple value questions how important are Park and Recreation to your quality of life the blue bar 83% say it's at least somewhat important 31% very important what about to the value of their home 88% in indate at least somewhat important with 42% very important so both of the the Parks and Recreation system is very much linked to what people View and see their quality of life here but also has a Major Impact they view on the value of their current home have they visited LC Steven Park LC Stevens Park 43% indicate that they had not uh 54 to2 on favorable to un favorable Elm Creek Park preserve 39% indicate that they are a member of their household had visited it in the past year uh we asked those that had visited how big of a factor was it to moving to the city of Dayton 45% indicated not a factor at all 55% indicated major or minor so you we have about 20% of folks indicating that the Elm Creek Park preserve was a factor in their decision to move to the city of Dayton do you find that a little bit odd that um you know the last two questions seem to indicate that Parks were pretty important to people and and they value them and feel like that's a a good Community Asset and then 61% of them haven't gone to El Creek Park no because it it's in either it's not in either or they could use other Parks they could use other pieces of the Park and Recreation system similarly with LC Stevens they might not use but they could use another Park so it's kind of a this is a specific site and that often times when we get to specific locations on Parks you're kind of limited by you know how close is it to your you'll have higher usage of smaller neighborhood parks versus larger Community Parks typically is that what we see have you guys worked with champ and maple gr everyone Elsa has LC not has Creek and they asked a similar question and got the same result yeah we just did Champlain last year and I don't I don't think we've historically asked about the impact of Elm Creek I was just curious how we were if that was in par with everyone else or not I I should know I live there but uh I did this I've done the survey for the last 25 years with him I don't recall asking but I will double check that just to see if there's something in the past we might have asked it back when we did the I worked with him on the park referendum We Got The Pedestrian Bri Bridge back in the 90s we might have okay we went through this list we developed and asked would you support a property tax increase for these purposes um you can see you have majority support for everything tested um I've arrayed the strong support and the support separately um there's there's a difference in intensity um so the Veterans Memorial 87% support um the larger community park and and we had some uh information around the statement of what it would include uh 79% Doc and fishing pier 81 offleash dog park 73 picnic shelters 82 pedestrian bicycle trails 81 a splash pad 71 pickle ball court 60 bans shelf for con concert 66 snowmobile trail 62 horseback riding Trail 61 indoor outdoor sports complex 60% so you have majority support for all of the things that you're looking at this will give you a sense of prioritization of where to start the process um you know if I if this was a bond referendum that we were testing I just worked with Apple Valley on theirs last year I would say you don't have a deal killer in this everything is support it's going to come down to how much it cost I was going to say I wouldn't I can't imagine people I in fact the red kind of surprised me because would you support X well to me that's kind of a no-brainer it's just when you ask the next question that's what it matters yeah this ask so and this is why we always go from concept to specific so would they support a property tax increase for the park improvements we discussed well you can see 177% said nothing that's extraordinarily low uh we always want that to be under 35% if we're working with a city on a park Bond referendum so there is an appetite for investment in the Parks 46% say $6 a month 2112 and then $ 13 $18 a month the typical resonant is somewhere between $8 and $10 a month at the outset now what's driving this is the property tax hostility and the concern that we see it's limited people's willingness on this they're absolutely willing to invest in something um you know what it adds up to going to that list as you start planning that's kind of the the master plan of the park as you develop it uh within those parameters they're willing to invest something for that um and there's support for everything you're talking about it's just going to come down to cost and prioritization realizing you know in a parkbound uh discussion when you get specific pickle ball courts it's either yes I use them no I don't uh snowmobile trails that's a yes or no larger Community Park is much more a yes than a no so it's kind of those macro versus those micro and prioritization and balancing those things as you go through planning date and Heritage days uh 31% indicated that they are members of their household had never attended uh those that had attended 66 to4 uh favorable to unfavorable on Holly Dayton 54% indicate that they hadn't uh 46% indicate that they had it was a 44 to two rating so both of them uh very of attendees uh very well regarded empowerment do people feel they can have a say about the city the way City runs things yes they do 69% indicate that's the case Norm on this right now is 60% so it's about 10 points higher motans often have I I say they have a diff we I've lived here 35 years my wife reminds me all the time uh uh we have a difficulty differentiating between having a say and having your way um often times so when we ask this question L people say well no why not well they didn't listen to me well that means they at least you they heard you they just didn't agree with you or couldn't do what you wanted so it's actually very good people feel empowered in the community knowledge of the mayor and city council this is life in a fishbowl for you folks 69% indicate great deal or fair amount the norm on this right now is 40% um you have and we see this often times in in growth communities with the development decisions happening and everything but you do have a high level of people following what you're doing now the question is do higher levels of knowledge breed uh breed appraisal uh approval or disapproval um they breed approval 91% on the city staff uh rate the the city staff favorably uh only 8% disapproved just an outstanding of this one we look at a we look at a ratio so 91 to8 uh better than 11:1 Norm on this right now is about 6:1 uh favorable to unfavorable City Hall contact uh 43% indicate that they contact the city hall during the past year that's about 13 points higher than the norm so City staff is aware of uh the level of uh contact from the community of the 43 3% we follow up and ask them for assessment uh 86% on waiting time 90% on ease of reaching help 91% each on courtesy and efficiency threshold we use is 80% in public sector for approval so very well this obviously pairs well back then to the overall rating of the city staff finally where are folks getting their information City newsletter the city website Facebook um you have more than three times the amount of people that want to admit that their principal source of information is Facebook most people don't want to admit that social media is a primary source of information um so if we add in Word of Mouth 24% are in the informal shall we say uh communication um but almost two-thirds are relying either on the city newsletter or the city website how do they prefer to receive their information this one I always look at print vers is electronic 33% say the city newsletter 6% mailings 2% local newspapers you have 41% that would prefer to hold something in their hand you then have I believe it's about 53% that want to push a button um so the push versus pull communication folks lean more towards the poll I'll get the information as I want it instead of the push but you have very specific demographics on preference of electronic versus print do you do you break that out into the age groups as well I was curious to see what that looked like if it was I don't know if it is or isn't but I've interest to see if it is age specific it it it does cut it the age of 55 has more of a preference for print under 55 more of a preference but there's still I I can get the specifics uh for you I I believe when I look CU I'm always I'm always curious on this one because it's like okay this isn't you know people have expected you're Liv through the change of time right you what you said you're living through the change of time well yeah and you do have even the younger folks there's a significant portion that still want print it it's it's the push versus the poll and they realize you know the comparison I always make is you know when a city or School District goes all electronic I see it immediately in the survey results because you're going to have higher levels of uncertainty about what how things are ha what's happening in the city and it's because it's a mile wide and an inch deep and you're only going to go pull the information that you want instead of getting the information from the city so it's still a preference uh you know it cuts at the age of 55 but it it has not gone to you know keeping in mind we had 20% over the age of 65 here we still have over 40% saying they want something in print City newsletter uh very well read 76% indicate that they regularly read it writing on content and format outstanding 93 to7 City website uh 95% indicate that they have internet access have they viewed the the city's website you have 71% that have viewed it so if we you know it's 95% 71% you have about 92% of the community that at some point has been on the city website how do they rate the content uh very 96 to five how do they re rate the ease of navigation this is often the trickier thing uh where the ratings will go down on the ease of navigation um your folks though 92 to7 uh so both on content and ease and navigation folks are very comfortable with where the city website's at city of Dayton social media 43% indicate that they regularly use the city of Dayton social media how do they rate it 92 to8 um the usage on this varies from Community to community if I'm in a community with over 40% over 65 year olds will have 15% say that they regularly use social media a lot of this is driven and keeping in mind that 40% of your folks have children it's almost a one for one on the use of social media and children nowadays and that's the last slide I think overall I would just say uh you know looking at the city this is the first stake in the ground in public opinion uh to see where you're at I can't do any historical comp comparisons to where you were in the past to where you are today um but it is a point that a lot of cities would be envious of uh when we're four months into the pan you know coming out of the pandemic and public opinion has turned overall negative on just about everything um and if it hasn't turned negative it's turned less positive than it was in the past so I'd be happy to answer any any other questions you have I just want to say that I think this is great information you know something that U that we haven't had before to get a broader broader input and a St statistically significant sample size so that we have a much better feel for what people are actually thinking I don't think there's a ton of surprises in here but um but it's confirmation in a lot of ways that's that's that's that's good to hear thank you um I I often say you know if I had a nickel for every elected official that said this isn't what I hear from the public I would say yeah I agree with you because you hear from the 10% that show up to everything um you might hear from the 10% boosters but 80% of people are just living their lives and this kind of tips in and I mean we're intentional in our methodology in Minnesota if you notice on it we ask excellent good only fair poor we don't say average we don't give motans a middle because if you give them a middle they'll jump to it we force them to a little bit positive or a little bit negative and to see how it tips is really important with the vast majority of people that aren't living dayto day you know if they have an issue with a road they'll contact the city but they're not in the midst of it all the time so how often do most cities do these surveys it's like you said this is the first one so we have nothing really to compare it to it's all kind of like well you know don't know if it's getting better it's getting worse it just is right now so like how often do cities normally do a followup or know is it every four years every as a vendor I should say probably every 90 days you recommend how the cities actually do it is the question yeah no absolutely I have a conscience so um I think you know it depends on the growth in the community I I tell folks so um I have a couple cities that do it every year and quite frankly they don't need to and I've told them that but they actually have one city has pay tied for City staff in the survey results so they don't really have an option unless the council wants to take that away and I don't think they want to take away bonuses for City staff so it's not necessary um I with higher growth areas I say look at the data and when you have about 20 to 25% of new residents coming in that can really impact the composition of opinion as a whole so I would say typically in a higher growth area um like like Dayton it would be in the three-year range um Champlain we do it every 5 years um a city like Richfield can do it every 10 years um you know unless something comes up like we just worked with them on the local option sales tax um but the bigger quality of life so it really depends on growth patterns and turnover on when you're going to have enough residents new residence in that's going to impact the public opinion thank you y social media da social media what is that we actually have a Facebook page City Facebook Facebook I run by the city of dayon we have one that is run there are multiple that are not run by the city not TI of the city at all I had no clue mhm so any other questions where did you get the phone number from because I think that has a big bearing on it's randomly selected out of a database the datab uh it's it's it's an online database you purchase the numbers from all registered voters in the state of Minnesota and I just tell it I need 400 phone numbers we have two zip codes here and we live in the 55369 which is not Dayton it's Maple Grove and so for a longest time we were not getting any Communications from the City at all yeah it's not based on mailing address how it's pulled yeah it's it's in fact people who are buying houses sou of 117 think they live in yep I know I talked do fact we have fives ofip codes here yeah I was going to say we have more than two any other questions no for me I really appreciated the all right content super thank you pleasure um I would like to know are we so I would like to see us take some actions based on this at some point discuss this um do you have suggestions mayor next meeting you want to have a discussion on results are you are we able to get a copy of this presentation yes yep so I will send that out on this week's weekly update I think we're talking about that we want to do with it I will have the final report over to you probably tomorrow Thursday together if anything arises charge by the hour so thank you thank you thank you that for the public to see as yes so um yeah so mayor council we will have discussion based on that comment um at the next meeting just to go over results if you guys want to talk about a certain item or something please let us know as staff so we can put something in a staff meeting um agenda just so it's not just open-ended it can be open-ended but sometimes easier if we have some sort of topics if we' like to speak on them um this will be posted on the city's website um we're also going to try to figure out if we can take a s of this and put the presentation given by U Mr Leatherman on the website itself so that people can then watch his presentation um the format and what you know the norms and stuff because those are not as part of the report and this will be posted on our City website and our city Facebook page um and then I'm also able to send out the PowerPoint to the council if you'd like to see those results sure just just for clarity this is now okay for us to finally share publicly cuz in the past it was not correct yes yep I had shared the results earlier to council and I wanted to have the council to have a discussion with overall before we have discussions with um residents and with other commissions just because it's important that the council is the one who initiated this um survey and it's important that you guys are able to discuss it before we're you know sending results out to whoever but um The Parks Commission wants to talk about this I think I'm sure the Planning Commission will take some of the feedback and we'll provide that to them as well but this is important for the um for the city of date moving forward I mean this is the first time we've ever done a survey and it's very important that the residents know where we're at and then we can use this as a gauge to Benchmark Benchmark yeah um we'd likely look to do this depending on our growth from now on um roughly every two to three years depending on what we continue with growth that's kind of and that's what Mr L had mentioned and that's what we're going to probably utilize as a benchmark right um item L yes good evening mayor members of council discussion on Water and Sewer rates we did this last year and the second meeting of October I'm moving it to this meeting because I think it's important that we talk about water and sewer rates again I'm not looking for approval of them I'm just looking for discussion on them and if you have any questions I did provide this um the water fund budget I provided in the packet um was not the revenues filled in I didn't have a chance to put them in until Thursday evening so they were out not put in before the packet went out I did send that out in the weekly update for you guys all on Friday and then I updated the packet on Monday when I got back in the office um what the what this shows is the water fund budget um I think we want to you know you can kind of scroll through and look at different numbers we did different project for 20 um move this little thing here so you can see these things um we did different projections for 25 than we did for 24 uh the reason for that is because we've had a significant decrease in water usage this year and that's based on the fact that we haven't had much irrigation um so the numbers that we're seeing for our budget in 2024 were not going to be even close to hitting because we had used 2023 numbers to budget for 2024 which had a significant amount of irrigation usage based on um you know routs and and weather patterns and unfortunately our water fund you know reflects that it's not one for one so it's not like we're losing money because then we're not pumping water we're also not treating water so there's some Savings of costs for us overall but um we took 24's numbers and then put that into 25 so that's why you may see some decreases in some Revenue codes um don't be alarmed at those those are just expected based on what we're seeing for actual activity whether that's related to houses and that's the whack fee that you're seeing and also for water safe sales so I wanted to make sure that was noted as well and that is based on 2024 information that we have year to date um overall the the you know relative change of EX um expenditures is fairly flat um the biggest thing you got to make sure you take out of those expenditure numbers is the depreciation number and we technically don't write a check for depreciation ever that is just the amount of money we'd like to put away or save every single year so that we can replace assets as their life is um expended uh one thing to note on depreciation is we are typically depreciating assets at a quicker life than they'll actually be used for so just because um we depreciate something at 30 years or 5 years doesn't mean at 5 years or 30 years we're going to replace them um that's just a way for us to bench mark and figure out when we're going to replace them next most water and sewer lines these days I'm talking with um our team with stantech and Jason theyve roughly run 50 years with the plastic that they use today so um you can probably get 50 years out of most of them unless we need to replace them for upsizing but we are planning for most of that when we're doing developments um and we are depreciating those at 30 years on the books and the reason for that is because I want to make sure and the city wants to make sure that we're able to fulfill those um assets if we ever have something break on them um they do get brittle over time if we need to do something about those I'd rather have them depreciated sooner rather than later so we have the money available so we aren't looking out to go for bond for replacement of a water line that we should have replacement for repair so um any questions overall on the water fund revenues and expenditure sides overall it's very healthy um we'll get into the rates that we're looking at increasing for 2025 they are very minimal um and again that's just trying to keep up with inflation and keep up with costs of of things going up also the cost of employees go up every single year as we have a 4% Cola negotiated by our Union contracts so those have to be negotiated in there as well hearing any in the sewer fund very similar or same thing the sewer fund is a little more stable than the water fund because we take averages in the winter so whatever your winter usage is is what we charge you for sewer for the rest of the year if you use less water than the sewer that we allocate for you in the winter months that you use then you only get charged your actual usage so for example if you were charged um if you used 8,000 gallons in 2 months um over the winter months and they're done in January and February and you are gone a two-month trip to Europe in the middle of July and August you will only get charged the actual usage that you use so maybe use 1,000 gallons in those two months you'll only get charged 1,000 gallons not 8,000 gallons that you were allocated at the beginning of the year but if you use 30,000 gallons you only get charged 8,000 gallons so the sew um fund is a little more stable there's not quite as much fluctuations but it's the same thing that's happening um we don't we will not hit our 2024 budget numbers Bas on the fact that we have not pumped as much water this year um and that could be good or bad but um overall it's much more stable but we still probably won't hit it um $823,000 where we said at today 24 we're at 1.35 if we use we've done four Billings this year four bildings we have two left we might be close 1.2 something and some changes my guess but um that's why in 2025 we're looking at $1.3 Million worth of revenue from sales same thing for expenditures overall very similar or very um from year over year the major increase is the Wastewater service from that Council so that one from 58 to 69,000 that's just based on Flow so the reason why I'm not as much concerned about that is it's all simply based on Flow so if we have more flow that goes into the meil system we are collecting more Revenue which means me is going to charge us more the following year and that's why we see an increase so I'm not concerned at all with the increase that we see there that's not based on a giant percentage that they're sending us it's just based mostly on the flow that we send them are are the use numbers yes you know do they correlate because we we've got a little bit of a modified approach with the with the water side where we're averaging winter and I understand that that's to try to keep the uh irrigation that's correct out of the sewer bill that is correct um but on the on the water side the you know are they correlating to what at council's charging us yeah fairly fairly accurately so we typically do those correlations in the winter months CU then we can see actual flow and they're not taking in and then we look at our you know what are we setting up for water usages and those are typically pretty close and we do have some inii in inflow and infiltration that happens into the system so essentially when it rains or the snow melts or whatever um if it goes into the ground and then the pipes aren't sealed correctly or they're have coals or cracks on or whatever then we will send and actually send PR good Rainwater um and or snow melt to that Council and have to treat that so there is a little bit of those things I don't think we have a significant issue extremely small number because me that says for our overall system yes in certain areas it is much larger um which we are trying to address as much as we can but it's mostly with the older parts of town as you know those pipes are older then they typically begin to wear and then we have to look at okay is it time for us to is the inii issues so much that it's time for us to replace those some of those have been you know replaced in early 2000s or and by I think it's maybe even 1990s or 1980s they were put and we know it's not a measurement issue we we're measuring differently than the Met Council I think you might recall we did the we did an inii study a while ago when we were getting some uh major uh calls from met Council saying we were spike in a lot um we did do the stuff to um find out where those spikes were occurring um we have done that but we haven't since we completed that study we haven't uh had any notifications from met Council that we've got those major spikes going on at the moment so whether the uh area mitigated the situation or I don't I don't have a strong answer on that but that's where the M majority of the ey and I was going that okay so what the hell they do that is they look at precipitation and then figure out if there's an inflow shortly after that into our system um that they're tracking in their meters that's how they track those things yeah overall I said both both funds are fairly healthy um and just trying to continue to look out to the Future um so city council or not city council City staff looked together and said okay what can we do in the future and we don't want to have um the one thing that City staff always looks at is we don't want to have any major increases in the future so we don't want to project out and say uh we'll do a 12% increase in 5 years that doesn't sit well with anybody we also don't want to have giant increases then decreases or decreases and then increases cuz that just makes it look like we're not planning out well and um part of the things that City staff does is try to plan as far out as we possibly can and we try not to increase things unless we absolutely need them um so as the water continues to be used we have to have increases in obviously all of the inflation costs so we're looking at a water increase of 3% for user rates um and then also a user rate increase of sewer for 2% um fairly small as you can remember last year those are both 1% % and again it's just trying to figure out how much can we cover with inflation how much can we cover by usages um last year because of the amount of increase in usage we only had to have a 1% increase in 2024 um we didn't see as much usage this year so that means that some of the costs that are stagnant as in we need to pay for employees we need to pay for um supplies we need to pay for other things that have increased in cost more than what we can absorb and a 1% increase has to be absorbed in there I've got a question for you on this yeah the city handles recycling why do we not have a recycling number in this chart we do not charge a user fee for those they are part of your tax levy okay but it's still paid it is still paid but it's not paid so those it's not part of the monthly bill it's part those are part of part of utility bill yes I get that I just don't understand why it's in here because really what we're trying to compare is water and wastewater correct but is it it is a full utility bill so it is important that the city of Dayton knows that other communities are charging for storm water for Street utilities and not because we want to charge for those things but because that's a utility bill that I understand that but they're recycling they are getting charged it's in their property tax just not in the utility though yeah we could provide an amount no I I I guess was just fairly small but for me it was just more curiosity it looks like we're not the only ones that don't do it that way maybe Rogers doesn't do recycling maybe ATO don't they don't the C don't handle the recycling but if I looked at this I would say if I move the city at Dayton I got to get my own recycling which is how it is in some cities sure so sure we could allocate that for how much it is I don't remember what it would be at a but isn't the point of this is comparison so why the storm Street and recycling in here because those are utilities that are not being covered by so the storm water one for example is a right now we require 100% of developers to pay for all the storm water in Dayton that doesn't cover by a levy amount that isn't cover by anyone else so basically the that's a utility bill that most of the Cities will communicate and or pay on the tax that we don't do anything with same thing with the street utility that one is a little different um I could see you saying well that we charge a payment management dollars for a tax levy that is correct so we probably could add that in there if we want well and we have that right we also have that uh um fee the utility Fe the franchise fee right yeah we' have I mean that goes into stets I guess what I'm getting at is if the in tan years to compare water rates just get rid of all that other we can take the other three out yeah that's fine because really it is important yeah I said it's just make sure that we know that things are being there are charges and costs that happen maybe we I see the storm yeah I can see the storm staying but the Street Recycling I would just take out of the chart I could take those out yeah I mean either way we're going to be on the the lower end we on the lower end yes regardless but even if you take those out look at the numbers you're still going to be on the lower end but I think it's probably more accurate comparison then sure yeah our water costs are higher for sure and the reason why is cuz our water is significantly deeper than a lot of communities it's also significantly not as great of water and it's fewer residents and there's lots of and there fewer residents so yeah the more residents you have for example like an oigo they have very similar type of water but they have double our resident town so now you take the cost and allocate over double the residents that's a significant increase in cost that we would have to handle so I can take those all in the future that's fine you mentioned Noto and so why are they so far well I does say how to act different than everybody else on the sewer side so they are so different it's cuz they have their own wastewater treatment plant and they have to treat their own Wastewater so what I wanted to show is that M Council may not be the most fantastic person to work with and may really stink but I will tell you that o seagull would love to be on their sewer system because of the savings that we have for their have they stock the manage in sewer yep correct that's what I mean but they don't so there is advantages and disadvantages um I did with the city about seo's manager city manager um last week maybe and he said I would love to be on Council sewer I just still want ma console's policies so unfortunately you don't get one or the other get to choose you don't get to CH anymore that's correct that's why it's so expensive is cuz they have a wastewater treatment plant okay they also have a water treatment plant that's not on there I think it was put in in 24 so that might be affected in 25 we have 25 numbers and Dayton should say 25 not in 24 on the little ask that parthy it should be 25 that's the future one so we're looking for an average of roughly what is it dollar 50 per month per month that's correct all right any more questions any questions overall again I'm now looking for approval of this this will be approved on the fee schedule but I want to have discussion with the council beforehand we will work on the long-term plan at the next council meeting so that you're aware all right item M good evening mayor members of council approval of dedication cash fee policy this is something that the council asked while back yep talked about a while back I want to make sure that we follow back up and complete the policy so I stand for any questions um the main thing I want to make sure it's noted is we don't currently have a policy at all of how we use cash Parks atation fees um moving forward if we were to adopt this policy what we will do is we will adopt um we will um add a new fund into our funds and it will mean Community Park I did go back if we wanted to implement this they'd go back and start when we started allocating for the community park dollars and we're at 1.15 million as of today for the community park dollarss so in 2017 2018 2018 was when we started allocating dollars in the long-term plan the beginning was $250,000 okay dollars per year um to be able to start and put in a large athletic or a large community park s similar to what was noted on this survey and so I went back from I think it was 2018 through today how much have we allocated per year it was a 250 then it went back to 150 and today as we said is 1.15 million if you were to go back and look at how we have divied up money is it consistent with this 7525 nope no what what is it I think it's roughly 78 so it's probably about 88 % of the dollars on local parks stay in the neighborhood parks just and it's merely because of the cost and what is expected out of that neighborhood park nowadays versus what is expected or can be received at free wheeling with yeah that is correct the money there was no policy ever set for it so we just use utilize the dollars that we have now moving forward I will note that the council should know that we don't have any new neighborhood parks on their Horizon and we only have whatever we call Premier destination or Community parks for now unless a new neighborhood were to pop up so but do want to make sure that's still new I guess I was just going to say we need a approval right yeah I just have one more thing so I think I have no problem with the split I think it makes sense I think we need to look at what the fees are though going forward because as we look at what a community park actually costs if we expect 75% to cover that it's not anywhere near it and we've known for a while now it's 78 if not more than that in all reality for what's expected in community park so we should take a look at what we're charging for those fees because if we're going to have 75% go to the neighborhood 25% go to larger Parks we should look at increasing the fees to make sure that we can actually put in a neighborhood park that the neighbors are going to want we get a lot of feedback on PSA 21 and a we didn't get everything in there that everyone wanted by by any stretch the imagination but it still cost way more than I think any of us expected so or will when it finally comes to fruition so that would be my two sens is happy with this number I just think we should look at the dollar that we're charging okay y we will do that and make sure it's updated on this year's fee schedule thank you it probably wouldn't to look at Trails doing the same thing same exact process for Trails yeah so these were updated at one point and we've been just doing percentage increases every year however those percentage increases have not kept up with the percentage increases that we're seeing from inflation and costs of items in general as you saw just be 30 to 40% increases in those items costs over the past even two to 3 years and we've been doing 5 to 7% increases over those years of times I'll motion oh sorry no go ahead I'll motion that we approve as it sits I'll second any more discussion all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no all right carries 5 to Z thank you on to item n just me it's all you oh that's me good great good evening mayor and Council um I'm here tonight to uh get approval to go out to bid uh contract to bid in for the Northbridge at LC Stevens Park um this is a bridge that was taken out of the uh uh 2022 Park improvements project because of uh the cost and the timing of that getting it complet within that um uh project um we're trying to achieve that this year um we've got a pretty project timeline on this um if we can uh get approval to bid tonight the the bid documents will be available tomorrow um we'll put the advertising for bids in the paper on Thursday um with a scheduled bid opening on the 31st and the project uh should commence around November 15th with sub itial completion around June 30th uh um this isn't um an approval to award the contract this is just going out to get the bid numbers um so we can make an informed decision I've got a really important question go ahead good what's the difference between silty sand and Sandy silt one Sil Sandy other one Sandy Sil everybody knows thatly cloudy and partly sunny is that yeah that's I don't know the answer to that David yeah I'm sure it's there's some definition there but in that geot technical report it's the percentage of each and to be honest I don't remember which is which I think the latter is the higher percentage so if it's silty sand there's more sand than silt and vice versa I think that's how it is it's a different classification system than what's typically used but one costs more than the other mostly Google has a gritty texture and does not retain water well while Sandy silt has a smooth texture and retains water better thank you're welcome it's a water W yes Marty what anything else what did uh what did that that bridge um the Box called Bridge cost us the box one that we did for Three Rivers Park District Jason would probably have a better handle on that I'm trying to find that right now that's what I've been looking for um I want to say it came in was around 40 40 to 45,000 if I remember right for the additional extension to negate the need for that span I guess what three rivers is paying for that 100% that but not this no they right I guess what I'm getting at is I I was under the impression that we were going to get a really cool Bridge a what sorry a cool Bridge a cool Bridge a ornamental a something that stands out I this almost looks like somebody welded it up um it just seems like a lot of money for I think it's the engineering and and the you know the abutments on this that are going to be you know the bigger Co cost on this um I don't disagree with you that it's not the most pretty looking bit Bridge um what do you mean by a cool Bridge like uh over it or like suspension bridge something that really stood out and again this looks like it's just a drawing but it looks like somebody welded it up I guess my concern is is that we're spending a quar million dollars on this thing mhm on a bridge um is this something where the engineering work we have to do the the underpinnings uh we can't get away from say a box Culvert uh the the engineering was that we couldn't do the Box CT because of the flows through that particular area that's what was the determination of the civil engineering on that is the FL going to be higher here than it is at the at the other end I'm not sure we weren't involved oh it's been on the plan for a while e e e e Leo's like come see this wild if you if you can catch the wild present you you should have them put you see this and catch it you'll get 50 bucks you get your PE back for the for the golden i' paid that yeah yeah wasn't you tell me they go bags go for like 75 bucks or something if I import another one it'll cost probably do they taste better makes me feel better that's all that matters there you go I like that we good together is see good okay oh L sa Jason whatever you were talking about you can pick it up from there that I already forgot was that a I don't know maybe or something wait until Z comes back you wouldn't expecting that no I was this this bridge is on a major Trail in where go yeah yeah that's okay all right let's just we'll go back in and we can't get by just throwing a couple logs across the creek no unfortunately not did we look at any other options here or this is it we did look at a bunch of other options um uh extending the trail um rather than having some much abutments and extending the strength uh the strength of the bridge through expanding the length of the trail up to it um and I think that's what you see there now that's where the route we've gone just so we don't have to buy so much concrete yeah um I think that there may be a few um alterat has come to this bridge um uh after we've got it approved just to try and streamline it a bit in a name in a name of in the form of a change order right uh no cuz we haven't got out to bid yet so no it shouldn't be that way okay just I I wish it seems like there's other things we can spend a quarter million dollars on but if this is the only way yeah you see his that don't have no Bridge yeah make them walk around to the uh Street Bridge the car Bridge yeah well I guess take will you be able to see the River from this bridge I me okay I mean you can kind of see it when you walk up there walk up to it this week but I you can't get out over the water so it's hard to know if you're what up from that okay I'll make a motion to go for the bid I'll second okay got a motion in a second SC man any more discussion yes he do kind of have a choice though I mean huh yeah there's a choice I mean we got to get this partk going I mean it's Turtles move faster than this and a splash pad probably well that was number that was like in mid pack I understand that but if if that if this4 million dollar Bridge was on the list I'm guessing it would be down there too but well kind of to that too is it's like I look at this go are 250,000 that could be used at a different Park you know could we put this not not take this off the list but could we are we bidding this or stch bidding this uh we're bidding so there's no cost you all to bid uh well we did it through P Kangas we the cost are very small okay yeah we're not like big cost okay yeah so we should get the number at least we can make a good decision yeah I agree y I don't disagree with that okay it's not going to help but any more discussion okay all those in favor say I hi all all this opposed say no motion carries to go out for bid to 5 Z okay item O Okay um this is uh this is something that uh Danielle researched um one of the new council members uh uh commission members commission um brought this to the part commission um is something that she saw on a vacation in Iceland um they were very very popular over there um these are outdoor ones um there are some bounce pads I believe uh that are in indoor facilities um around here the park commission uh wanted uh to proceed with this and they were U recommended start pursuing installing a b bounce pillow in a city park to you know to puts more new unique amenities in in Dayton Parks that's one of the things that we've been looking at for a while um we're not looking for funding tonight but just to allow staff to further research the product pricing maintenance issues and location for this amenity um and just so you know see that you think it's something that we we would be interested in doing vandalism that'd be my biggest concern well I think the Parks Commission had recommended getting a camera on this yeah so that both for vandalism but also for injury in case it was an injury we had we had a recording of it for for our own fruition now we need a camera yeah possibly possibly yeah I think I think that's what staff wants to look into is going to figure out how feasible is this Rel you worried about maintenance or yeah I don't know what the maintenance is one of these things what you know what the motor looks like where that goes um when it how long it can stay out outside when do we have to take it down does it have to be completely deflated and removed from the site or can it stay on site all those things the pump running continuously then during the day or is it running continuously all summer or you know I guess you'll find out do we know anybody else other than Iceland got one of these I I have run across them at several campgrounds that we mean it looks fun and they are always Orchards I've been to a few that have there they are always busy they're becoming popular I just I haven't seen them in a public setting and I also kind of question is LC Stevens Park the right park for it I mean I would think all up in the air a kid attraction yeah and that was one of not there yet but people can drive's a location that they were suggesting doesn't have to be there we could put it at clo or somewhere else somewhere like that where we have I don't think it's a standalone attraction I think it should be coupled with other playground there's a playground at CL as well so we could put this together that's looking a little dated I'm sure we'll have one neighbor the next years oh yeah there that as well okay any other uh sign need a motion in a second I don't think going and get some information right now we don't know nothing okay Dave I'll second one or did somebody second no you're good any more discussion okay all those in favor say I can questions we're just motioning to allw staff to look into just so I know what motion investigate go ahead Mr Mayor we're not buying them yet I want to make sure that I knew what I was voting on that's all want to be clear approval to explore cool cool perfect sorry it does look fall it does asking for dedicated time uh all those in favor see I all all this post say no okay that carries 5 to zero on to item P oh we lost Bill yep um fortunately vesal I guess I don't know um mayor and members of council um tonight we're looking for approval of resolution which I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting 52 2024 which is the purchase of real property at 29120 2244 00002 or um 30's 117th Avenue North in Dayton um the property for purchase is located 117th Avenue um which is kitty corner from the Brer Trails development um and is just south of Dubay Lake this is location of it what council what um City staff is looking for is an approval of the resolution um discussed so the price is $570,000 we have our real here to answer any questions I'll stand for any questions make a motion to approve I'll second Scott M um I think we should also I don't know how we make this clear but you know even if we're not looking at it third station it seems like this could fit the bill for other things too um me we have a listed plus I mean the back end Park to Bay Lake yep seems like um seems like a good fit for a few things okay we got a motion a second any more discussion there's more than enough room for extra things here yep yeah okay all those in favor say I I all right those oppos say no motion carries 5 to zero I'll expect to see a uh referendum for a uh fire station next week and if there are any objections no no we added item that's right we item Q I even got it written thank you did you s it to me sorry one more note is the I'm trying to email you the sign and then the title get completed perfect thank you thank you very much for help sir appreciate great thank you um so yeah mayor and members of C I say thank you and have a great night but um there was one item added item Q or item Q's the sign ordinance discussion I don't have a slide part or anything at this point yep but that was added at the beginning of the um meeting and I will City staff is ready for stay for any questions Is it feasible I thought about this in great detail there's an awful lot of chatter about this sign ordinance deal and I brought it up to uh Zach last week again fire department signs went right on the RightWay and we're taking other signs down so somewhere along the line we got to figure this thing out now to me we didn't not make sense and maybe maybe what we can do to limit the amount of signs on each corner you get one sign whoever it is gets one sign on an east west or north south intersection can you limit it that way can we put a number on how many whatever company is there you get one sign that that was so I've been an expert on this for three or four hours now and the answer to to that is yes um was very interest League of Minnesota cities you know their online courses was 20 minutes and so it was worth the time for sure um so where do we get into big First Amendment kind of discussions is around regulating content and you know we can't that's the short version of that right and that's why we can't say your garage sale sign is okay and right the par of homes thing is is not um but it the people have been successful in limiting the size and number of signs that any individual or organization can have and uh so I uh I wonder if that isn't something that we um couldn't explore try to figure out what a reasonable number is uh for signs you know I think for some of the ones that we originally were attempting to get rid of we you know zero was the right number there's just too much Collateral Damage I would say can I ask a question on is that signs in the right of way or signs period um well we can't just right necessarily control okay I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing which is why I'm asking for clarity so I appreciate PA with the question when we talked about this ordinance early on we did bring up that as an option to limit the number per group per owner and and I don't know I don't know whether there was anything done about that or not um I think we had comments back um I just wanted to clarify that the fire department signs did get taken down and I know they did okay and then um second uh we possibly have an option of H a company that manages signs and that it's more of a and I can send this out in an email but like at the top it would be City of Dayton with logo kind of thing and it's a metal bracket where I think that then they pay for this development with an arrow this way type of thing more directional yes those they're advertising to us essentially yeah so I don't believe do we had comments or discussions about um cuz cuz I got that up last no yes you did yeah number I don't think it was brought up at the time when we were signing both the sign of ordinance it was just we're trying to limit these type of signs yeah the question that we have would be staff is okay which ones do we remove if there's more than one we just pick ones and whatever it doesn't really matter I don't know if that's the answer again just just a city staff um what differentiates a different type of sign so is it a different name on it or is it DR Horton okay now this one has an upside down label versus a right side up label is that then a different sign or not a different sign so they comes into being this um arbitrary thing and that's what city staff was trying to get away from is um arbitrary items because then it's we're picking and choosing and that's what we're not trying to do here as the city no different than our sign isn't allowed in the right away no different than anybody else's sign so can we just have it so somebody could come in and ask for at no cost just come in and say Hey I want to put a garage sale sign this week and then they fill out a form with like here's a picture of my sign here it is there's no cost and they can just do it and we don't have to worry about it it's the reason for the exact reason Z said if you limit it to one which one do you take out if these people have come in and they have the staff has got to picture the signs that are okay for the weekend and they know which ones can and can't go otherwise they're just randomly picking and you know what's going to happen where someone said well they pull my sign not their sign why they pull mine they're picking on me this is X Y and Z and here's why they're doing it they don't like me and the C doesn't like my company and Y yada yada they want to see me fail and so I'm trying to avoid like how do we work through that new want piece of it cuz it sounds easy to say just allow one and I have no problem with that but then when there's two like Zach said which one do they pull out to me to me it's you're going to limit lenar homes they're going to have one on the north on the north south intersection and one on the east east west and that's all you that's all lar gets if there's more than one they all come down except one can we put it in the development agreements that they aren't allowed any signs I just don't know how you get they're not allowed any signs Peri today they aren't no not in the RightWay I mean nobody is I can't put up sign no I understand that I'm saying that if we if let's say we amend it went back before we had the change to the RightWay yeah could we have been putting in Das then saying you're not allowed to put any signs in the RightWay as part of this development agreement it does we don't allow anything the right way so what he's asking is if the scenario happens yeah so they the council is trying to discuss John what changes could be made to the current sign ordinance that sits today that would be amended in the future so for example when DCM Farms comes in and they get their final plot and we put in the da that they're not allowed any signs anywhere even if it's legally allowed in the the right away we say nope you're not allowed to put any signs out in the city yes you could so con construction development signs I'll use that specifically is limited to 32 square ft so sheet of plywood you know what you often see are two sheets of plywood but also with the little ones in they put right at every inter cuz I'll be honest I've seen since we've implemented this I've seen mixed results overall there we are getting less signs picked up I've been asking Zach every week when I meet with him about how many signs are we getting approximately are we getting less signs so people know right are we getting less developer signs what's going on but then there's the random weekend like there was two weekends ago where I showed Zach I'm leaving on trying on Dayton Road in my car and I look left and I look right to try to get out and I cannot see up and down the road because even though we have the RightWay sign ordinance I know your guys are working hard but they go out Saturday morning and there's 15 signs and three flyers for Keller Williams and a giant Banner that blows in the wind and it's like so all we're really hurting is is the people that are following it properly yeah right and so my thought was well if we just go back to signs are okay in the right away however you make it so the da says that Builders are not allowed to put signs in the right away and then we can just go pull Builder signs because they aren't allowed there per the development agreement M that's what I'm saying how how does a da um enforce something on a builder that's what I'm asking I don't I don't know if we can do that ask an agreement that you have with yeah so that's the agreement with the developer and that developer would then have to follow that agreement with the builder because it's based on the land not on the building so we we would take enforcement action against the developer not the Builder correct we'd have to email the developer or contact the developer to say you have to remove those signs and if they don't remove them we can stop building $1,000 fine in 90 days in ja one thing that might be worth pulling up because they mentioned it in this um training was that little Falls had a a size and and limit on number of signs and they were taken to court and prevailed um that their ordinance was okay so that might be one to take a look at and see if we can't model something off of that we already have a size I I don't I don't to me I think putting a number on it is and we could maybe take a look at the PA I just think that's going to be a cumbersome so one suggestion that the city staff would make is potentially around off premise signs so off- premise signs is a possibility that um and again I'm not trying to address a certain issue or not but we have heard from certain businesses in town that they are not able to promote their business outside of their property that they own today which is true Al prac signs were added to the sign ordinance not recently but in 2008 so that might be something we want to look at an adjust I'm not sure I will speak specifically on one business that has noted it which would be Dean pumpkins they specifically cannot adverti for anything to get any signage to their property because off- premise signs are not allowed nor are any signs in the RightWay so in in past history off PR signs were not allowed but RightWay signs were allowed so they would put them in the RightWay which means um the analogy of a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square kind of deal it just prevailed now that nothing is allowed they get have been yanked and removed from and we had heard plenty of feedback on that as a city and not because we're picking on Dean pumpkins because that is what the ordinance says if an off premise sign were to be allowed you'd be able to the dean pumpkins could then ask any homeowner to say I could can I put my PL in your yard and if they said yes then it'll be fine and they said he's not going to do anything about it because oppr signs are allowed right if we were to adjust sign ORD I think it's got to also State somewhere in there that you know you can't block the you you know view of if it's on if it's on proper property it would be it would be 10 or 15 ft off the road I also think you could solve some of that by building it into the Event Center that we built because it's not just going to be that one when you know Fisher Farms have the same problem when they're trying to promote events you have the same problem when The Vineyard goes up and they're trying to promote events I I think you could I think when you have events that aren't regularly occurring every day it makes sense to um promote those at an off-site location I don't want to see I'm just going to pick something we don't have a Subway sign in the future I'm saying Subway this way Subway this way all over the place because we allow it so I think an event center that whole function seems like the right function to build that into where you're not allowed to have opim signs unless you have an event center permit and then you can use it that that'd be my suggestion but I'm open to others yeah so we we can to David's point we can regulate uh size and location we can't regulate content so if one of the event centers has as a Subway no no my no it wasn't my I think my point did you get my point okay I think my point might have been this but yeah yeah yeah no I understand what your point is but we we can't regulate the content to sign correct my point is Subway if a Subway restaurant were in date and they have to come in and get an event Cent permit which would mean they need 40 acres for the little Subway to do it so we're never going to see a Subway this way sign that was my point it doesn't have to be as complicated as a 17 Page sign that's absolutely Asin I think 17 pages I think so be it should be one or two so our premises thing I I guess we can deal with that but mean can update the Event Center or or can update the whole side whatever the cter wants to do is fine with City staff I just want to make sure that it's easily um it's a black and white answer not a gray and then City staff is getting thrown underneath the bus of Bing arbitrary things and that's not appropriate you know for us to take the plan for that cuz we're try to enforce what the origins are for the council and we don't care City staff has no preference on what we just want to see what you I think we should look at the whole thing the the whole ordinance itself it's going to be a long process what direction you go that'll be a long for all signs the 19 17 Page 17 it's absolutely ridiculous but a lot of that is is not uh dealing with this issue no no no and I'd like to I mean l i mean you get I don't know I I said this when we had this last vote I knew this was going to be an excrement show cuz we were playing Johnny's graduation signs that's what we were doing so I just right we got to fix that I think gentleman that came in with it though it's like to mt's point I can't see outside my and like that's a safety concern I think that's something that we have to address other than just being like you know hey you know we tried but we failed but like you still have to we did and we still have 20 signs on the round right that's that's where that's where if you limit it to one sign for lonar and Dr Dr hon no I mean how many Builders we got five or six you're going to have five or six signs that's on every intersection right yeah that's fine compared to 20 I I will say this it's a step in the right direction I I'm not disagreeing one bit and I'm not saying that what we did before was perfect and the mayor said it we were throw the baby out with the bath water but we needed something because it definitely wasn't working before and we're trying to figure this out and in my mind it'd be great if it was perfect the first time but I think recognizing that's not perfect and need to make a change is the right thing for us to be do so I think I think we're going down the right path with it I'm just saying I don't have the right answer for it if we want to try one sign I'm okay with that too that doesn't bother me at all I'm what I'm trying to get at is we need to allow the fire department signs I agree the Heritage Day signs your event sign the event signs we need to allow that sign so if each enti has one sign at each intersection that covers it it's pretty simple but that's if they stay true cuz then you got to have I'm I don't know what days you're going out and check for Friday afternoon right it's how you waste your half days you know you're doing it then but then yeah like I will say there is a difference between putting a sign in the RightWay and then hanging a sign off of a city sign because we've seen that too recently and like that that's a little different like I'm okay with signs in the right away but using the city sign sign to prop up other signs I think is well no longer in the right way it's now in the city property and we're not allowing signs in city property no so okay so I'm I'm fine with the I know we have to go through the whole process we can't just make a change tonight correct no I don't there okay but it sounds like we have my problem is we'd have a we'd have a public hearing with nothing to talk about like what are they going to do we don't know what do we want yeah so that's why we need to have which I is great can we put a moror on our current ordinance without the public hearing uh no I don't believe moratorium itself requires a public hearing but you mean a moratorium on enforcement that's we just stop yeah stop if the council doesn't want us to enforce it anymore then we could stop that immediately but that until the change takes place they' be the same as the more this doesn't cover the you know the the pumpkin sign issue but there is sort of this freefor all that goes on during election season that is covered by state statute for non-commercial signs to be fair um this applies to election signs as well they are not allowed in the right way per state statute we do not enforce election for the very reason of I've P your sign and not your sign and why is the city staff picking favorites or you know who bad very quick and why um it just staff shows we're not touching political signs because it's it we can't win right well I'm just saying what you know what we did we did with good intent and it's not working and I think we how do you to just sorry finish what you're saying yeah I think we if we can you know we ought to have a moratorium on the enforcement and you know there's this election season thing that gives people some latitude anyway you know if we followed that and then give us a little time to uh see if we can do better on on this on this one because if we I mean if we're going to look at the whole 17 plus page sign ordinance we're still going to be talking about it next summer and I I I think we can get to some of these Solutions at the one sign a lot quicker than than looking at the entire thing I'm not saying the entire thing doesn't need to be looked at I'm just saying we can make some changes a lot quicker than that and kind of work our way there instead of trying to do it all in one thing yeah so for City staff just want to make sure we have good direction it sounds like the main things we want to look at are right of voice signs as they said today whether that's number or whatever but that's the general area of the sign ORS we want to discuss and then is there any reason for discussion on the off premise signs or is there just a reason to look at the Event Center ordinance to allow the permit that's so I have two questions which one Al premise or Event Center ordinance or neither is the answer so in my opinion the off premise should be tied to the event center okay those people went through the work to get the Event Center they're the ones that should be doing it and if it's a business that's I mean candidly most businesses you can Google and you can find them and get directions so it's not about finding it's about promoting a specific event that's going on and I think that makes sense for an event center to be promoting an event yeah it's up to them to go ah and ask some guy if hey can I can I put a sign here or maybe they'll be allowed the one anyways when the rightaway thing changes right so yeah yep yeah I I so I see there's two changes here being asked that's that's why I'm asking one is for the right away change to one sign is that I I like one I like one one what's that mean one per Direction one per intersection one per company per intersection is what Scott's saying that's what I'm saying so you'd have one lenar per intersection so then you can have how many down the road can you have 50 none down the road well like if you're driving down the road right in the middle of the road if you're intersection only for instance and South Diamond then you go up to South diamond and teritorial that's so Johnny's gradu ation sign isn't going to be allowed oh I see what you're saying but John's graduation this is why the sign ordinance is 17 pages long this is why so but that's going to be at an intersection so Johnny's graduation can be right at his door right right at his yard it's in his y put him in your yard yeah so are we allowing you in front of you here's another element this is why City staff is trying to figure out they not trying to hinder anything this is the same as you know the this is how we got to a 17-page sign ordinance the ordinance happened the same way it evolved you can't hit every use case well then I bring up another one is like the sign twirlers that stand out on the you know sidewalks with the business signs and whatever else advertising well I mean are they a sign right what's their function it's I mean if we're going to talk about it we don't have those yet yeah we're on 18 Pages just and none of this fixes it on County Roads cuz the county could care less it's illegal there but they don't care so I think it all comes down but we've been enforcing some of the county stuff right cuz they're on County and City intersection there's very few County County there's a handful County count intersection yeah there's only a few count inter we taking the runway count yeah so in other words what you're saying Dennis is we should allow Johnny's graduation to be on on his address Johnny's graduation is going to have the address the address is going to type it into your phone and you're going to find the way there you're going to get there anyways yeah it's not like it's a it's it's it is a don't get me wrong it is a special event that's happening for Johnny but his family and friends probably know how to find Johnny and or can enter the address of the house in there it's not like you're trying to promote that Johnny got graduate cuz you want random people to show up then are they stupid what do you mean why are they putting signs out if if that's if they can get there any if if people can get there otherwise when I graduated in Dayton a long time ago we didn't put any signs out and everyone find our house just fine and this is back when people in champ would say I'm done giving you rides home cuz it's too far out there so I don't know but you'd say the same thing about you know the the paray of homes if you're or Builders if you're going to look at a new house and you don't know the area aren't you putting it into your phone yeah I agree so what's the purpose of all the signs we used to put them in it used to be plot next cornfield we found it but yeah yeah I think one perter section will get cover enough to get you to Johnny's house and that's my point okay well it seems like the only thing we can do tonight is talk about it is enforcement enforcement yep well we got all St what we want to talk about in the the open public for otherwise there'll be nothing to talk about there right well we talk about the whole ordinance You' be all 1 figure out in more detail what we can do to fix it but I'm just trying to see that if we can't get somewhere tonight yeah well I think the one the for the builders and uh whatever one at each intersection helps cuz it's going to you're still going to load it up Saturday morning as I say yeah you on that is like zero or one there's I mean I can show you the picture from like three weeks ago on Saturday morning it's just one L sign that you've got to pick up at at the end of the day that's all it is you'll still pick them up you're just picking up one less so does that Marty do you have anybody on on Saturday morning or not no no I can do if you want well that would fix it I mean Saturday morning but then you're pay overtime for that yeah I know that but normally you don't right no normally I don't no my point is what we have is not clearly not the answer it's not working but I think to David's point we need there are things we could do tonight and we could say we don't want City staff to pick up signs anymore until we get this figured out in a different way that's how we want to go about it I'm okay with that I want to make it clear it has nothing to do with political signs for me cuz I'm not putting mine in the right away so I'm not really worried about it but how you doing Z so to a little more suspend the enforcement do we need to have a motion and some approval or how do we want to go not necessarily just it would be nice if I just got some head nuts please stop that' be great perfect sounds good yep that's that'll work but it would be nice to have some direction on what you'd like to have with the public hearing will be good I'm getting lots of mix misdirection because there's always these one off scenarios that are difficult to enforce and I don't think we should always enforce the oneoff scenario we should be try to trying to enforce the issue at hand which is I think most of the time the Builder signs and such um which is fine if we want to do time in or like one prod that's fine we can do that and we can amend it um and again we're going to try to do our best but again City staff is not perfect so so that what you just said makes sense I mean it's it's the direction we're telling Marty to pick them up that's correct yep all you got to do is don't pick up the fire department signs or don't pick up the Heritage dat signs the problem is you can't pick and choose you can only put in code to make black or white answers you can't say we're we can't do anything with Co correct exactly so we can't say well we're going to ignore the garage s sign because whatever reason and but we're going to take out the Builder sign no they're going to sue us and say you didn't take out the garage shell sign and I had my Builder sign right next to it a picture of it no what we're going to do is if you got more than one sign we're taking it out sure that's that's all you got to say simple okay one you're talking one sign per intersection not one sign in the city correct but to prove that would be one sign intersection okay I just want to make sure we're on the same page not in the city correct just want make sure we're on the same page no one no signs period I will take a look at little falls's ordinance just so we have an idea well since it's been challenged and stood it's a place to start we we'll bring forward a sign or specific to Temporary signs but if you want us to do the whole 17 Pages like we've got other projects like that's going to have to wait well it needs to be looked at it's ridiculous so our ordance is almost as long our what the fense ordinance oh yeah never looked at it's really that long for a fence it's just ridiculous you'd be amazed s of preface the sign ordinance all signs we front sign every sign of the business any sign that went up yeah okay okay logos sizes percentage of the wall so now if there are no objections we'll be adjourned and we're e for