e e it is uh 6:30 we will uh call the the date and Planning Commission to order uh first order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge to the flag the United States of America and to the for which it stands one nation under indivisible andice for all all right uh next order business is the roll call uh you start from the left or from the right all right I'll start Peter de present Darren Brown here San Aston here here John Cal community development director Amy V assistant City administrator Jason quisberg city engineer so for the record we do have two Commissioners absent Paul crin and Peter presler Nick ni presler there we go all right uh next order of business is the we've got the role of Planning Commission on here for those who need a reminder um we'll move on to the approval of the agenda if there's no changes I'll make a motion to approve the agenda as is second we got a motion and a second all those in favor I I I motion passes [Music] 30 I should have asked for oppos but um next up is consent agenda uh we have the Planning Commission minutes from April 4th any corrections or changes I come off really crabby but it's fine in the minutes or yes in the minutes oh but it's fine I didn't get that okay did you read them in a crabby voice I mean maybe I was crabby when I read them but I felt like I came off crabby in the minutes but that's okay I'll make a motion to approve them as is I second we have a motion from Brown and a second from Sarah van ason I was going to say that on the last name didn't want to butcher it so um all those in favor I I all those opposed motion passes 30 uh next up open form anyone here for open form anyone online John all right next item Council update uh so April 9th the Steven turn lane bids uh bid was accepted um we went through the MSA Road definitions or allocations or whatever you want to call it um there was a discussion on the roundabout on territorial down by 81 um and kind of how that'll allocate some uh possible costs to purchase skid steer and a used excavator and then we had the yearend fund transfers which wasn't very pleasant but uh had to be done um we had the Zachs review in a closed meeting but um there was a a uh uh synopsis or a summary that was read at the next meeting where it went pretty well uh more excession on the intersections last time um was the discussion of what intersections uh we'd be looking at for improvements where they're at um as far as uh cost wise what it would take to bring them up and the value of those improvements there was a discussion on chip and fog seal plans and there was a discussion on properly worded ballot questions if we wanted to put a question on the ballot is there going to be a question on the ballot uh are you still debating that yeah that that's still kind of a discussion right now um and then we the the garage size question came up and that kind of went the same way that the Planning Commission uh that it went here and the same with driveway aprons we did approve to have staff look at that um although I think it was three to two or I think um no to garages yes for aprons correct yeah there was did the the basements on the homes without the homes without basements did the garage sides ever get brought up on that I know I missed those meetings but did that ever get discussed if it didn't I don't I just I didn't see anything in our current code we require those to be larger than standard yep and I don't I guess I just disagree with that if you're going to have a villa patio home you don't need a bigger garage you're choosing to have a vill villa patio home but that's why I didn't know if it didn't it didn't appear anyone discussed that not saying it's right or wrong but yeah I don't believe so but the direction was is don't change anything don't change anything so keep the no basements you have a bigger garage okay I know we've ran into trouble with that with the town home development proposal already so that is the current code if there is no basement the garage is has to be 540 versus 44 40 sare ft it's current code I didn't not know that almost seems backward again that's what was on the packet cu the Villas tend to be people that don't have a lot correct or they just need a two-car garage and whether they end up being 440 or 500 it's the personal preference I guess you don't necessarily want a huge garage yeah everyone wants a huge Garage in fact they would I mean the concept probably was there's less storage because you don't have a basement for a bigger garage but I not everyone a lot of people that move into the V move in because they're yeah so anyway I think the last time this came up though was in the the a lot of them had the it's the garbage can storage um that sort of stuff so I think and that's where I I liked you guys' discussion I think that that's more of a a depth issue or with potentially then it is pure size well but yeah so the square footage then because you can fit garbage cans in what the standard with the two car sell knowledge is how you arrange your garage we're getting out TR sorry my bad anyway we already talked about that um there's a dit stabilization project that is mostly funded by grants that was discussed the extended home business was approved I think as Planning Commission recommended in that configuration with the I think it was a 5year I um I and then and then the Event Center permit was approved so yeah that was it oh and then we had a a closed meeting on uh the status of the uh housing first lawsuit that was it all right uh next up we have new business thank you Mr chair so our our one item action item that we have well let's see if I can get this working there we go uh I'm calling this quick trip 1187 which I I assume the 1187 correlates to the store number correct uh so quick trick quick trip is asking for a recommendation for approval for uh four parts this so part one is a zoning map Amendment to rezone the property from indust no from BP Business Park to B3 business uh the second request is for preliminary and final plant approval the third request is a conditional use permit for motor fuel station and then the fourth request is for site plan approval so to try to simplify this a little bit I'm going to do a quick summary of kind of how we got to where we're at and then go through these four items one by one so how we got to where we're at let's see what's on the next slide NOP um so quick trip came in in I believe it was 2021 uh with the same project uh so it it is a gas station convenience store with a A Truck Stop component to it um in 2021 it it went through concept plan stage um and I believe there's an application for all these same items and it it failed on a I believe it was a 3-2 vote so and to quickly summarize the council's opinion it was is this was not the highest and best use in 2021 um since 2021 we haven't had a lot of interest in it so the interest that that I'm my understanding from the property owner from the the owner's realtor is there's interest in industrial uses and for gas stations and so the question that the plan commission Council should consider is has the highest and best use changed since 2021 or is it is this it as a convenience store in truck with a truck stop component that's a quick summary did did the council have any feedback on the concept plan we should be aware of um yeah so generally speaking so the concept plan was reviewed by the Planning Commission this is May so it was in March um as well as with the council um the majority of the council was positive for for this project so and I I'm suspecting there'll still be a mixed vote but um as far as changes go I I don't think there was anything significant anything yeah not I got to look through the minutes that we just approved if if the plan commission had any significant changes though I don't believe so I think there was just minor suggestions about enhancing the posts the post and then possibly adding um car plug in um electric ohri TR stations station and then a car wash yes yep okay so the first part of this is the zoning map Amendment so once again the request is to rezone this property from BP Business Park to B3 General business district the reasoning behind that is a motor fuel station is a conditional use in the B3 District but not the BP District so um the B3 district is close to existing B3 districts it would be um appropriate to rezone that so the B3 district is generally intended for um commercial uses that are dependent upon uh Auto related uses so a gas station would be the perfect example that you as opposed to a business park which is I'm going to call it office warehouse as an example um any questions specific to the zoning map Amendment no okay the second item is prelimary in final plant uh larger projects generally we separate these as a separate process of you go through preliminary plant and then final plat and stages um in smaller projects like this where it's just one lot we we try to simplify it by doing it at the same time um this is a 10.3 10 close to 10.3 acre lot uh nothing that uh is really unique about it on a plat standpoint so are there any questions related to the preliminary final plat Okay the third request oh y yeah just just kind of thinking about it and understanding the the current use of is that that's RDO right yeah to the South yep and thinking about it from uh logistically with that kind of called the sa bulb thing yep does is that the best scenario for a quick trip well for us as a city to own that extension all the way down that's what I'm thinking about right as opposed to a private driveway yes we own whatever that that is we have to maintain it right we'd have to presumably plow it and all that stuff or does it make sense to incorporate it into one of these two Parcels with this plat sure the entirety of Maple Court you're talking about yeah um so quick trip you know assuming that this is pro prop approved there's the word I'm looking for they're going to be generating a lot of traffic a lot of customers we we need to be able to service that for emergency vehicles and so on it's in our I think our best interest to keep that as a public road to assure that it's going to be plowed and and maintained anything else related to the the plat okay uh so the third item is the conditional use permit for the motor fuel station um and this is just a rendering I needed something that showed a gas station so this is it um the idea of a conditional use permit is that it it requires a public hearing the surrounding property owners have an opportunity to voice their whether it's their support or opposition and ask questions and all that um when you get into cases like this one and this is a multi a permit application and so some things are a little duplicative and this is one of them so um the things that are covered for a conditional use permit are are also covered in the site plan review which is a lot more in depth which leads to the fourth item which is the site plan so um the map that we have on the left is the landscape plan and then the images on the right are renderings of what the building would look like and there are a number of I'm referring to as critical issues that are um items that are are not quite compliant with the code that are worth discussing at the plan commission level um and then I'll go over each one of those uh so for the four items we have accessory buildings signage parking and Landscaping specific to the accessory buildings within the B3 District or the business districts in general we do not allow accessory buildings uh within the plan set there are two uh one is the garage uh which is more of a a maintenance garage from yeah yep and then also the trash enclosure and so the intent here for the the city code is that these be incorporated within the gas station or the primary building and I believe this is possible to do I think we have figured out a way to enclos Dean if you want to come up so we can pick you up on the microphone so Dean George 1626 Oak Street Lacrosse Wisconsin uh on behalf of quick trip we have to look into figuring out a way to in integrate the trash enclosure with the building which I think is it's possible on our gen 3 store I just don't know if we have the Prototype with this smaller Travel Center building that we've ever done it before but I think it's probably doable the one that's maybe a little more difficult is the that maintenance shed where we keep kind of our our our data our K like help clean the lot but I think they're probably both doable we'll just have to figure out a way to get them in there sure so this will be the new prototype for all C Tru yeah pretty much all right this being made so where you put these elsewhere accessory buildings are a lot of a lot of municipalities let the dumpster enclosure be detached some want it detached with a roof some wanted enclosed connected to the building somewhere and then the accessory building the the maintenance shed is not prevalent on our smaller location so it's only kind of the major in location that we need in one are they detached in other communities are they kind of a mixed the trash enclosure is 5050 how about the yeah the shed the shed is detached in other communities okay um question specific to accessory buildings well since you're up here George I I unless we want to wait let you present everything or I I don't know kind of kind of veered a little bit here okay I'll how about this I I will go through each of the four items and then we'll go back to item one perfect okay Paul uh so item two for the critical issues is signage So within the B3 District we allow a maximum of two ground sign signs uh up to 25 ft in height and up to 64 Square ft per sign uh what is being proposed is three ground signs whereas only two of them are allowed in uh all three of them exceed the size uh that's allowed um I do think for the larger Pyon sign there there is reasons to support a variance for a taller sign um in the corner because the of the topography so the uh the Quick Trip property does sit below grade of the inter section so this is Dayton Parkway and this is Interstate 94 so as you're getting off of 94 you're going uphill and then you get to a high point and then come back down again um a 25 ft sign could not be seen by anyone yeah so again there there is my opinion justifi justification to supportive variance um I I would question what's being proposed is 60 ft that that's fairly significant so um and we can get that get into that a little bit more so uh so once again we had accessory buildings now it's signage the next item this this nice view is uh parking so uh within the parking code allow or requires a minimum parking stall size to be 10 by 20 ft uh 10 ft wide 20 ft long what's being proposed is 9 and 1/2 ft wide um I think this is fairly easy to to fix um there's also we we need to confirm with the applicant as far as um how much parking how many parking stalls are needed this is based on the the amount of retail area within the building so but also like this is a big property so I'm sure we can solve that fourth item is landscaping and um the amount of landscaping is based on the size of the property so in this case uh the Landscaping is compliant when it comes to trees trees but not shrubs uh We've run into this on past projects it's more it I think the code works well on small projects but not necessarily big projects so big as in you know in this case is 10 acres uh so the code requires 1,700 trees as opposed to what's being shown is is about 500 and that's because the code's not discriminating between hard surface or open space it's the size of the lot in this case a large portion of this lot is hard surfaced I I've got to look at the code clearly if if it's the whole lot or if it's takes out just the building and not necessarily hard space hard scaping I think I think that's what it is yeah maybe we should some point F that we yep okay so back to number one is accessory buildings I guess my question to Dean before we figure out how much we want to make you combine them is how important it is or how easy is it I know you said it's possible but I guess I'm impartial I guess I think that's the way we left it last Planning Commission on this but I'm impartial but you know obviously I'd prefer you follow the code sure but that's what I want to hear from you is how realistic it really is so we can know if we have to make a decision or you're saying that no we're going to figure it out I think the trash enclosure is possible I don't know about the the kabod shed um I think our Engineers are looking at that right now and we'll have an answer before the city council meeting if figure out just how real how realistic it is and I'm kind of thinking about this maybe in a different way you know trash enclosure right now is showing detached from the building correct can you do a larger Kabota shed and combine that that I think is the potentially the option to kind of getting a larger traction closure putting them together and trying to getting a way to fix them integrate them into the building I think is what they're looking at yeah instead of instead of it being part of the main store right yeah right yep I mean I have no opinion as long as it's you know neat and tidy and orderly yeah there's a lot of trees in the Landscaping plan everything it's like so I'm impartial on whether it actually has to be attached yeah um on this specific example so if if we detach it or we need to change the coat or do a variance hard to justify Vari hard to justify variance yeah we'll take a look and figure out just how feasible is to get it kind of attached back there to make it easier on you guys as possible so you're not you know changing code for just this one minor situation okay I have to assume it possible I assume so I assume so too I I assume so too money it's not possibility I mean it's kind of silly but we have you know residential lots that are this large that just going to say that have larger or just as large of home and then larger to larger accessory and we allow that in our code so I actually think it's a little silly it it does seem OD that we don't allow any accessory buildings in our code yeah yeah yeah I mean even the place minimum should be accessory buildings almost like a cup so there's cases where it's appropriate or not appropriate or conditions you have to put in place and in this case it it's I don't see a big deal so in the future all add that to the list of accessory buildings in business districts okay that might even clean up some of the outdoor storage that everybody wants to have wants to and does have and does have whether it's covered or not yeah so as accessory building stand it sounds like we're going to not do anything about it just mean we're going to say comply with code is that the direction we're I'm kind of hearing that is my recommendation if if we say we're we want if we're okay we're okay with this it's going to be a couple month it's going to delay the project a couple of months let me ask this Dean on construction timing of this of the the the site and the building I mean that something that we didn't hear in in the presentation it's next summer so there there is time to get this figured out more critically we just have to have a approval approval to so that we can go forward with the person especially giv the history so I think what what at least the way I would describe it is maybe we we say comply with code we'll work on changing our code and you'll work on maybe reducing down to one building and either way if one of those two pans out it complies with code it works for us I mean knowing that if you can combine it it's going to go faster yeah if you want to break on even sooner y well if if you want to pull the part though does that need need another plat Ro revie or another uh it would be an amended site plan review okay could you do that administratively if it complied with code no no it's got to go through here so I mean I I understand the direction is just so kind of what it is you know let's say Council approves this as it is meeting code um so you're going to plan you know theoretically tomorrow you would plan for it an attached garage um the code's going to change and then you submit a building per that has a sure seems like it's going to change but I wouldn't say change right because they got to it seems reasonable to allow at least one accessory structure it does but people got to vote on it so I don't want to say that it's can't guarantee anything okay anything else on Accessory buildings okay signage um so again the the code allows two ground signs um up to 25 ft in height and 64 sare ft per sign in sign area uh so what we have are three ground signs um one of them is close to uh being compliant so let let's kind of go one by one so um as far as the pylon sign goes so this is 60 feet in height three I'm just going to say 300 ft in area what the code allows is 25 ft and 6 64 Square ft I'm okay with it being taller I you said you aren't happy with the 60 I don't know I mean what is because it does dip down quite a bit so like at 60 how far up is that actually from like so I guess I'll I'll jump in here we we saw these comments and we we agreed like the below grade is probably the big issue where the basis sitting so we're going to get our science survey done just to see kind of what L what level it needs to be coming from I'm guessing the eastbound side westbound side you're probably going to have a problem if you're heading into the city seeing it no matter how tall it is is my is my hunch when we get that that site but if you get you know something moderately tall from the other side it probably can be seen pretty visibly but we're going to get a sign done just to get that exact answer um so your current request of 60 fet is just an estimate then and so you're willing to go lower especially if that sence study comes back and says 50 absolutely yeah and it's our understanding that's taken care of kind of at a later date the signage approval that that would be my preference yeah is you know I think we would agree yeah sign approval is at a later date just some feedback now let's say this project is approved minus anything that has to do with signs and the sign would be um totally separate so the direction would be is Quick Trip has to comply with the sign code or apply for variances okay uh my general feedback on the sign is I want it tall enough that it's it helps your business succeed okay but not tall enough that you know you can see it from Rogers so I I think that probably Echoes what we want right yeah and you know when it come oh go ahead on this Tye depends where Rogers it's right there all right fair enough um yeah no and I was going to say with the square footage I know we did something different with the last quick trip but we also did it because you guys might had some additional commercial pads and that's where the signage was going to go um I guess and I know you're trying to take these signs one by one but the cat scale to me is a little bit of a question separate sign like if that sign goes away I guess I could see the point of having more square footage on the bigger sign sure yeah and so I guess that would be my question to you is how important is that smaller cat sign that I don't know that might be cat dictated the company cat but we'll get an answer to that for Council as well you're talking the one on the pole mounted no I think he's talking about theor one the shorter one just went away yeah cuz like on that photo it's like kind of like yeah whatever but in my mind it's like once you know there's a cat scale there why do you need a big sign saying CAT Scale I mean you know it's there so unless they mandate unless they mandate it yeah so we we'll get to the bottom of that also yeah because it seems like one or the other is the answer which would decrease the square footage on the other sign if you you know didn't do that yeah totally agree uh question so for ground signs we have kind of two different CR criteria one is pylon signs which is shown and then we also have brick signs and so the question really and we we had I believe we had a similar discussion for the court trip on 81 is you know to me obviously the bigger one is going to be a pylon sign but for the smaller one that would be on this corner is there a preference for Brick versus the Pyon so this is a pylon that is shown and when you say can I clarify when you say brick talking about like a like a like a Bas I mean this is not a residential area by any stretch of the imagination it's never going to be so I don't see the purpose of spending a bunch of money to make a sign look pretty for truck driver I mean there's nothing wrong with truck drivers but like they're not going to be like just a gas station person you're going to go to the gas station yes you're going to a gas station like I'm not like oh well this is a fancy Quick Drip like so you know I'll say when we designed Dayton part parway I mean we did design it to be fancy and pretty well yeah that's stt and Parkway but like this is like that and that's not that's not where this is it is it's not in the pretty part of it right like it's the right off the highway part of it like the right off the highway part of it and like when you look at the other business that's right across the road that is not a pretty business it's a you know like keep I mean I'm with you Sarah but keep in mind someday that business might go away it's gonna be a long time so I'm but at that point then they can upgrade to a pretty brick sign then I guess but they don't need that's why we're doing this process because they might not need to just seems I'm with I'm actually with money on Peter what were you GNA say I was going to say I'm you know I'm I'm just thinking I'm trying to see the and Google's not up to date on the not helping you on the quick trip on 81 but I'm thinking about you know who's going to be using this and how they're coming through and how they're finding it it's going to be the highway users yes the the smaller the smaller 25 ft sign I'm even questioning besides maybe an entrance sign is that even needed um you know if that that's kind of where I'm questioning of of what you know and so you're saying they're allowed two signs but another way to maybe get more square footage is if you got rid of one of the signs all together is that kind of one other way to say it cuz you give them more square footage lenience yep that that's just kind of the my head or maybe it's just a smaller you know does it does it need to be the digital or is it more of the entrance sign like you see at some of them sure you know yep um certainly a cost savings for you guys as well and I do think a fair number of residents are going to use this meaning that's right on the freeway is the in and out of dayon but they know where it's at yeah they'll know where it's at they'll know where it's at you can those those large pylon signs you can generally see you'll be able to see this from 81 um depending on the orientation I guess are you going to be able to read the the gas or not but probably not I'm anti- sign and I always will be I um you know you certain parts of the highway you drive it's just all signs like thinking Highway 10 up past um um yeah yeah just it's all big signs right and it just it doesn't look good I'm fine with a a tall Earth sign at the corner because that's just kind of what you need to get the freeway presence and to to drive people off the freeway to to use your business i' be excited to see kind of what your sign survey says and if we can get that down to 50 ft or whatever and still be successful I think by the time you're on date Parkway you already know the quick trips there you just driven past a 60 foot tall sign if you're coming from the freeway side and you'll see the building uh if you're coming from Dayton probably know it's there already and you'll see the building and Nice Landscaping and you have a sign on your building right there I would encourage us to just as short of a sign as possible it's it's cool to have one there it's good to have one there but I I'd minimize that I don't know I just don't think it's necessary it it is part of dating Parkway I know it's I know it's industrial but it's still an entrance to our city that's fair so yeah it's good feedback do you have an opinion on the brick versus I'm not going to look to force them to add money to The Brick I mean brick is nice but I know I'd rather have a small sign that's pylon than a big sign that's brick is that fair to say yeah I mean it's shorter I mean if it makes sense to have a brick base it's great but I don't know I mean your building's bricks you already got Masons out there I mean okay okay I'm trying to remember when when we went through this on 81 I want to say that we had did we have a sign limit to like 16 ft or something in height or we had to Grant a lot of question we had variances on height and size I remember that and and part of the variance was that we said that well they're each individual business as they fill in aren't going to have their own sign they're going to piggy back out that I think we said that we didn't want to see a bunch of lots subdivided each have their own freestanding Monument so let's just make maybe one that could be shared of the entrance I think it's kind of the way it went yeah I I just looked over at the the two quick trips on 610 and Brooklyn Park um one one of the stores 880 just to help you thank you um but both of those are are are the you know they're right off 610 they obviously aren't going to get the truck traffic like this one will so but they both have the the shorter Monument signs the um almost ground mounted yeah yep with with little you know little brick facade and then the if you guys want that in place of the second 25t tall one I think we can easily like look at it doing that when we complete the sign study that that's what I would be in prefer of of the 25 foot one um from that entrance I think it makes I do that's and I get you got to check in with cat but to me the ugliest sign is the cat sign next to the scale of the whole situation you might even agree no comment I don't know okay so I'm hearing kind of a consensus from the commission of of a I call it a masonry ground sign on for the smaller sign 25t sign that goes on the corner um and then to address this as a variant the I have a question about the second CAT Scale the smaller one ston one is that almost just an entrance to it like it's over theact middle of it I think but yes so does that even in the street correct yeah I mean so in some ways that's not even really a sign so much as this is where you need to go to do the thing you're doing once they there away they know where to go okay so we have the code has directional signage but they're like like four four square ft so I mean it's the enter exit not the big advertis this is an advertising and just to clarify too for the the 25 foot sign that we're requesting something lower I'm fine with it being digital or displaying gas prices and stuff like that because I recognize that really helps business and people right to see what the gas price is and there's a lot of people that dictate where they're buying their gas based on the price I'm not one I just go into the first gas station that I can turn right in and right out so I don't have a cross an inter but I I see that as a benefit so I wouldn't say get rid of that okay I don't know what the other Commissioners think about that but I I concur yeah the dynamic portion of that is fine yeah it it's totally within code yeah okay anything else specific to signage okay so next is parking so and I I think I don't know if we really need to discuss it it's more of an explanation so um the parking stalls as drawn out are 9 and 1/2 ft where whereas they're required to be 10 um we do need more information to calculate the number of parking stalls that are required I have no doubt that we can figure out how to solve this um and then there's uh got that on here twice uh there's a minimum 20ft setback for parking lots uh when this is drawn out it's at 162 again there's enough space to meet that 20 foot um setback so it's it's not going to be an issue so we can presume that that setback is going to be taken care of yes only question I have on the parking withd is I know this came up on the apartment building where they requested going down the 9p CU I said that was standard and maybe Dean can even provide some feedback is our 10 in excess because we heard it a couple times uh the 10 might be I think it actually it varies kind of where what we see everyone put it in between 9 and 10 in between nine and 10 I think so I would say from my experience like nine is kind of your minimum like comfortable with nine and a half like 10 is generous yeah it's so maybe and maybe 10's appropriate for a play a high traffic place place a lot of in and out room with truck you know pickup trucks and vehicles are getting bigger and bigger and bigger I mean they're not but they feel like they're getting bigger and bigger bigger I a pickup truck that had you know the double wheel on both sides literally filled the entire Lane on 169 yeah so I don't think this comment is something that's too difficult for us to to modify um I also don't think that there's an issue on the total number of stalls so I I don't know that but what we can figure that out yeah I I I think it's it's about 7500 Square ft is kind of what we've been told on for retail so so this this is kind of a unique scenario too with with the Stalls and the the the business I'm one who I'll usually go inside the store Park my my truck underneath the canopy fill up on gas and go inside the store and leave the truck there for a few minutes I would consider those if as we're talking about if we're short that many stalls we have to consider those because 25% 30% customers do that and so move my car give gas pump in seem like I would have guessed that I would guessed that but I pay inside I pay inside before I fuel so yeah there's a lot of people that do that I can't do that but that's but that's that's part of this right is for sure is the type of use of of the store and if we're short you know 15 STS count it count those okay yeah I think it's a business use thing at that point right I mean being sure 15 installs impacts your business they're going to find place to get more stalls I think when the when the playing gets modified I I'm more confident there won't be a shortage but if there is we can talk about that I think it it's going to be fine based on if we use about seven or 8,000 I think we have enough if we're talking your short 25 stalls you know and you can't fit 25 stalls under your canopy that's a little different right okay anything on parking or anything more on parking just to summ it up when there's a site plan approval request so we're going to assume that um everything is going to comply with code at this point okay we don't have an issue making them code compliant on the sizing and I think the number is going to is going to hit the minimum requirement okay okay um and just we haven't talked about this uh truck stalls I believe there's 36 stalls I'm assuming that someone would ask that at some point but I do those got in my requirement no they don't well so I I just I remember last time the presented and I'm just kind of reiter cuz it left here and went to the council but I remember uh the past Planning Commission chair had some questions about are you leaving enough overhang for people when they back in so they're not backing in the Trees and Landscaping just kind of repeating that to make sure that that's the case and no attraction the bushes right I don't know when Peter is looking at the site and I'm kind of like I I just the one thing I want to make sure okay because it otherwise it's why you know I waste the and they do back in and they do back they're designed to most of those thoughts are back in they back till their tires hit yep that's a good comment uh Landscaping so again before the truck stalls I think it's important I know that you know maybe when you're talking the Cil some people are hung up on the trucking component of it is I think it's important to note that it is only 30 36 six stalls I mean there's a lot of truck stops that are 100 plus stalls M and so the smaller scale I think might help it's going to alleviate some concerns in my opinion do you have a calculation right now what code requires for parking uh I think it's 58 at 15,000 uh hang on so the buildings itself was 14,500 and there's 250 per right uh 58 plus 2 60 even I think is what we need okay so you including the truck St yes and and see I would arue if I mean I would argue that the truck stalls would count for parking stalls I mean they're customers they're going to use they customers of the retail going to use the showers the whatever it's they're just customers who have to park in a very specific spot yeah and where other customers are not allowed to park or shouldn't if they do they have to pay to park there no yeah and and someone with a I mean if someone has a horse trailer or a boat they might like other customers are going to park in those spots too if they home so should count as they should count as parking stalls y i I'm not concerned that we'll be able to meet it okay I agree I just I think that's for the type of use it is it should well that also is That's So it's not just a truck stop right like this is also if you have you know your whether it's a boat or a trailer or RV you want to go to a quick trip of this size because you cannot park your truck and trailer at a tiny one so like it's not just a truck stop having those bigger spaces we get a lot of positive feedback on size is that are this larger people who do that exact same thing pull a trailer pull a boat and pull jet skis and they can't navigate some around some of our tighter sites they really appreciate having that separate diesel can they take a truck stall instead of eight individual stalls or even just having a separate place to fill it up they always try and finagle it on the end of it's really hard yeah having you try to help navigate horse trailers with horses in them while you're driving gas like it is nicer you generally have one person if they want to fill up a normal store is sucking up all the pumps on the end yes yeah that's not whenever I park them Minards I got to do this with my horse trailer and they're like half the time they're kind of sticking back into like where the entrance is every else is like trying to around exactly so okay uh next item is Landscaping so again uh Landscaping requirements are based on the size of the property uh We've run into this in in previous projects or we're on larger lot subdivision so in this case um the code is comp or the site plan is compliant with the tree requirement but in shrubs it requires 1,700 shrubs whereas 557 are proposed um I guess my suggestion and this is what we've done in the past is we would have Quick Trip present two site plans or Landscaping plans one is with the 557 trubs and the other one is with the 1700 trubs and demonstrating of why 1700 trubs is Not Practical you know just a question though was are we seeing 557 cuz it looks packed with shrips it's a 10 Acre Site so it's hard to I mean at some point it kind of gets comical doesn't it mhm well because if you put too many in they're going to die if you put too many in well obviously if you maintain it good it's not an issue but it's a maintenance nightmare in 10 years too well that's the other thing is yeah it's just they're going to grow yeah I the trees are going to have more impact on the experience space than the shrubs do yeah what's our way around this the variance no it's it's not so what we've done in the past is kind of case by case and you know so if anything else I would say if we're not going to meet code then it'd be a variance but with Landscaping it's very site specific uh you know so I guess my suggestion again would be to present two different plans one of what it is that quick trip wants and then the second is to be compliant with the codee and then that would the 1700 trub plan would demonstrate of whether it's practical or not so just the visual of what it looks like with it might be you know let's say you end up with 600 570 already showing yeah triping triple yeah just think that that's a waste of time to show I think it is a waste of time I we already know in this case so would I have a consensus that you're okay with five with what's being proposed at 557 I'm okay I'm okay if they're meeting the the tree requirement I'm fine with it yeah okay when we do a site plan approval do we have to say anything specific about the Landscaping it would help having reasoning so if we're allowing a reduction without a variance and and saying what the justification of if the I was our code is based upon the site area minus the building area and it's not factoring in the hardscaped area that's the logic in my mind right there done we got to check the code again because we've got a lot of hardscaped area here and we do meet pervious surface in like storm water management requirements and everything yes and I'm trying to think of here remember if I have the staff report or if it's in the separate for the percentage or what are you looking for uh yeah in previous we're we're below the maximum quite a bit you know unrelated John but historically we've got the Jason's engineering Report with a lot of these applications I've noticed we're not getting it anymore just yeah so I let let me address that at the end of the meeting um so imperious surface that it's we allow up to 80% and 55% is what's proposed okay yes so we already have more in more perious surface than the code would require they still they get the shrubs yeah that how would you replacing grass with shrubs but I mean physically if they could have by rights had even more pavement physically where would they have put even the even the 500 TR 500 as it is yeah that's just nonsensical yeah cuz also they're expensive like why would you purposely plant something that you know is not going to be able to thrive because you've planted it so tight packed with its neighbors that they're all going like plants need space to live the code needs to be changed that's what I was waiting for you to say on John so so again what I'm hearing in the consensus is that the the Landscaping plan is fine yes okay it's a 80% maximum 80% impervious maximum how on Earth would you fit that many okay sorry doesn't make any sense that is all I have it's good questions this was useful discussion I think yeah well it helps you're the only one on the agenda still have two more hours we can talk all night let's talk about shrubs all right any further discussion more questions for the applicant I don't have any more questions for the applicant I'll just summarize so the parking summary is on one of our Keynotes it looks like we have 36 standard stalls and four handicap stalls outside of what you see on the truck stalls and Under The Canopy so there's 20 places to park the car under the fuel canopy five under the D canopy so if we're not including any of those 40 is the number that we have and backing into that K 40 * 250 10,000 I think we're less than 10,000 every kill space for sure yeah my opinion is all the stall should count and if if you guys can your business model supports 40 vehicle stalls then I'm fine with it about how many employees per sh heak time it'll be like 12 and then went slow down probably between four and six 4 and eight don't worry okay with what was just said John do you think that you can still work with the parking 10,000 the store is going to be 14,000 yeah I still think we'll figure it out yeah okay even with the slightly bigger stalls you might lose some stalls you we still have meaning like if we make a site plan approval based upon them complying that's what I'm going through my head yeah so so if nothing else I mean we're going to figure this out before it goes to the council so you know whatever like I understand the direction that you guys are going but it it's still it's a recommendation and the council will you know if there's a problem we'll figure out by the council the council will be able to react to it where do you encourage your employees to park along that first road parking away from the building correct okay so I mean those stalls could be narrower if it's employees coming and parking and staying right I think I kind of agree with the high use high turnaround having a wider stall is a benefit for everybody and could reduce minor incidents it's a good point if you need to create some more stalls I'd be okay with that if we have an issue with it we'll yeah yeah yeah just a thought yeah I'm just struggling if we recommend approval of this site plan but then it changes significantly in the council is wondering what we think and we don't know because we didn't see that we didn't see how it changed and I don't think it's going to be the case from what you're saying but if we're short so I guess the two scenarios I I can see is either a variance to the number of parking stalls or a variance to the setback or the size of the par size of some stalls in particular Paul mentioned or we can do an ordinance amendment to reduce the parking size or number of parking stalls I mean there's a lot of different ways to go with this I am very comfortable saying we won't be short okay I I think half the building is going to be kitchen bathroom shower storage office yeah non non- retailer and we still have a 10 plus Acre Site to work with yeah okay well I'm going to make a motion and you guys can discuss it more if there needs to be but I going to make a motion to approve the zoning change from BP to B3 I'm going to make a motion to to approve the preliminary and final plat as presented I'm going to make a motion to approve the cup for motor motor motor Fuel and I'm going to make a motion to approve the site plan as presented subject to it requir complying to the zoning code for parking but not Landscaping so complying with the Landscaping plan presented okay so I'm to say compliant with the city code as as it regards to parking cuz that's what we're saying we're going to do you guys get yep and Landscaping as presented is is far with the shups as presented yep and the signage will deal with signage we're going to be silent on and that we're assuming the accessory buildings are attached okay okay a second all right we got a motion from Brown a second from Crossland all those in favor I I I I all those oppos motion passes 4 Z thank you guys very much thank you we'll get to we'll get to the bottom of all those questions before the council thank you thank you thank you this will go to the council May 25th I'll be here see you guys thank you all right uh there is no other new business notice and announcements um so I guess the F Well our next meeting is going to be on the 4th of July I'm happy that we'll all be here June don't we have a June meeting first yes so June let's uh June stick with the calendar here so June 6 is the next meeting uh this is a heavy meeting so right now I've got eight items on the agenda wow um my so just because I know you guys are going curious what they are um I have an interim use permit on non-domesticated animals a text Amendment for commercial kennels intern use permit for commercial kennels four concept plans and a text Amendment on driveway aprons um my suggestion because eight items is quite a bit um if you would like to separate these into a second meeting specific to the concept plans um I guess my opinion is you the more two of these are are going to be a fairly big deal oh no three out of the four are going to be a fairly long conversation the concept PL yeah um we're start at 5 again 530 or something yeah I you know I I am I just don't want a meeting to run super late not because I don't necessarily want to be here but we're all fried and we don't give things the attention it needs to at the end I'm not sure I'd want all the concept plans pack though together i' almost want to split the concept plans because that's what like that's what starts to fry my brain and if we're going to have those big long conversations and I almost want to split those two into two so that we can well wait let's before we talk about splitting it let's talk because it's goes hand inand the meeting after that is July 4th and so do we have anything coming in for July the July me that needs to be that has a deadline today no I I do expect that one or two items will come in that would go for July okay so what what I was talking to John about prior he he he didn't tell me what he told me the number just not what was on the what my thought was is to have maybe two shorter meetings in June skip Fourth of July week and if we if we can skip July all together so two June meetings and if if if it works skip July Al together if the that workflow permits that that would be my thought okay the one thing I need to be mindful of is you when we have an application like we're under a 60-day rule um so if it's two June meetings it'd be like the last weekend in June till like June 27th yeah which is where would be one of the options to move to July 4 meeting to anyway know how if we have any conflicts and obviously all the text amendments can wait if necessary no not all of them but some of them one of them I mean there's two text amendments one is City generated another is uh directly related to the concept plan uh no to the kennel inter got it you ask me about the 27 specifically hi no I have and June's my busy month I think we're okay as far as the chambers goes um yeah we're good you know I I would say you know with eight items I mean there's nothing to say that you guys can't go you know you just assume it's I don't know 20 minutes or 15 minutes per item the best thing to help an item move fast though is and sometimes we don't always have them with Concept plans is a really good packet with everything known so we can all prepare and seems like we have to figure a lot out here yeah that's what makes them sometimes go longer in my opinion John what was the other text Amendment uh driveway imprints so that's that can wait we it can wait but also everyone's disgusted I'm assuming that can be done we've spent a lot of time on driveways you just can't redis it I mean if your mind's made up that will also save time it's good mean we shouldn't talk just for the sake of it well no but I mean like even like the beginning of this meeting we already started talking about it again um which just creates more time I'm not saying it's not important or it's not valid it just creates more time if the decision's already battling yeah yep so I'm going to say my recommendation is to stick with the one meeting in June and be mindful of where we're at in time if we run out of time just table the other items until the the only the only problem I have with that is we have had several meetings go very late and we have a lot of applicants who are going to be at that meeting and so to be mindful of of our applicants as well because then sit around and wait for three hours and then like and we're not going to talk about you you got to come back yep that I find that actually even even just sitting around for three hours or waiting for them to come on I get it it's the process we can do better on our end sometimes these concept plans never come to fruition they drop off do you feel pretty confident about all these happening no I don't I mean that's the thing we're talking about it but yeah one of those the north damond yep or is it realistic to start the meeting earlier just to prevent to start early and just see what we can get done yeah start at 600 or 5:30 I maybe we can even take a 10-minute recess partway through to stretch our legs which we haven't done before right just to reset I don't know use the bathroom yeah you know I'm okay if I know I guess that we everyone we've been told and warned to be mindful of time and be prepared and I'm okay if we have to try to rush it through but um I guess when will you know who's really on the docket I do right now there's one or two that I think I would suspect they would apply for July I can try to encourage them to do this like now and get it pushed on the June so those eight are already applied and said that we want to go June yes and that eight includes the driveway apron so again I I'm assuming that's a five minute discussion nothing more than that I'd prefer to do it one night just because June's super busy I can make one night work I think if we're committed to it though like if we got one item left and it's 10:00 I think we got to get through it before we discuss it at 10 o'cl if we've made them sit that long we just got to get through it yeah pack a snack bring some drinks some coffee love coffee get it my coffee yep okay what time would you like to start I have flexibility meaning I can start as early as I can start early I got a lot of flexibility but so I'd let up these if you guys I have flexibility as well because I'm it's summer I'm a teacher I have more flexibility yeah I can start 5:30 6 I mean 536 shouldn't be a problem um with that many items I recommend 530 or 515 if you can can we put the the ones that are the least likely to actually happen at the bottom of the list so that if we give them I the least amount of our like I would say I I would like to put the quick what I think are the quickest ones at the beginning yeah but I'm just saying like if some of these concept plans are things that are probably never going to happen anyway and they just want to come and talk they all think they're going to happen okay they all think yeah I don't I think I don't think that's fair I hate them I hated them before and nothing has changed okay so 530 I I would say with that John let's not put the quickest item first if they're developers let's put our residents first those are the quter items okay I think that's way to do it I think just in general let's let's start doing that residence first develop residence first developers second I'm fine with that I like that residence businesses developers that's good just just to to help drive that process I didn't think about that let's get earlier so Jun June 6 at 5:30 let's do it can you update the the calendar maybe that's yeah yeah yeah yep okay um so July um you again this doesn't have to be solved right now but I do need to know if there's a preference to cancel the July meeting um you know I again if if I get an application there's a possibility that it would go straight to the council without Planning Commission review it shouldn't happen not happen I mean I'd be okay on the 11th what's what's the what's the timeline John here that you're talking about um I'm expecting to to get an interim use permit for a home business yeah home extended business um but what I'll do is I'll try to push them to get on the June agenda I mean another another one yeah what's wrong with July 11th I don't have a problem with July 11th if that's needed um you do I do but Amy can do this the other my other thought was is is maybe we'll have a planner by maybe maybe not the 11th maybe we'll go to the 18th and we try to I mean we've had like like I we've had a lot of long meetings could do the 18th let's just maybe try to space things out a little bit while we get have a couple later meetings and then if we get an opportunity to cancel one we do so ten put July 18th and we if there's not enough items move them all to the next meeting does that work I'm sorry I was disrup July 18th tentatively and if there's not enough items or if those items can be moved to the next meeting just move them to the next meeting we'll do it then but if it's gets to be too much July 18 I don't know I was just thinking I'm just thinking from the the standpoint of you know we've we've had a we don't get to cancel very much so take advantage of it sure so to be clear anything that is considered by the plan Commission on July 18th would then go to the city council on Tuesday the 20 no Tuesday the 30th I still have a week to write staff reports you're good then we we're good I I would have a conflict on 18 just to note that but if the rest the commission is okay I'm fine I'm available I don't I guess I won't know yet but I won't know till I should be okay okay I have an update y um so we do have um commission seats coming up July um and it is Peter let me get to the planning page and Paul um are both up for 24 so you're welcome to reapply um and or if you know anyone that would like to apply that would be fantastic as well all right they're required to reapply sure but yeah so technically terms run until um July 1st so we'll start advertising that and um know that you'll see an application coming your way soon so hopefully they'll reapply um so following up on one of Darren's comments on the engineering review so one of one of the things I've intended to do when I when I started working here is to try to figure out how the commission and the council thinks and I just never got into quite had the time to delve into that but um and it it's you know for as you guys know so prior to working here I was on the Planning Commission and it gave me a good appreciation of how um Commissioners and the council members process staff report so so uh the plan commission packets are lighter than what they used to be there's not as much information it's more condensed I don't know if that's helpful for you guys or or any more helpful or less helpful so I guess my question question starting out is what would you like in the packets well my easiest answer is it depends meaning tonight's Quick Trip the way you hit the critical issues was great you know but certain other properties you know it's not just not just all the critical issues it's you're you're talking more things than just it's like bigger concept issues especially concept plan sometimes well and and where I find the engineering reports extremely helpful like this it's pretty straightforward right it's one site one user but when we talk a neighborhood or or a business park where there's multiple users multiple things coming in and out from uh you know maybe it's three Parcels being combined that's that's where I find that stuff much more useful um this this is pretty typical and this application also from a you see gas stations and you use them all over the place it's really easy to Envision it other buildings not so much you know some of the stuff we've had come in is you know uh napkin designs yeah I'm trying to think uh what some of them are that where they've come in where we we did think more about like turning movements or things like that um as part of our discussion because we read it through the the engineering packet okay I think the engineering packet's always useful because it just shows to me if I got a question in my head and I'll just I'll be honest half of what I read in the in in reports like going over my head right but all of a sudden if I have a question and it's addressed there I know that staff is thinking about it and that's why I like this evening sure okay so I mean we have you know we've got a number of people that review projects so you know Jason does a in stantech does a great job at the engineering review and it's very detailed we police fire DNR Mot um I mean it it's a thick list so we draw a lot more attention because to engineering is there's always an engineering report and our city is going to change differently because we're you know the engineering report's probably although with that being said I guess I'd just like to see the the highlights if there's a concern from the other reports if there's a concern and and I mean at some point you know that's that's more or less what it is even with the engineering report it's what what are the what are the concerns or what are the not the concerns like a you know that makes sense sure you know so I I'm trying to think of a good example but I'm struggling here you know I think of you know stantech will have their report and you know the engineering report I'll have a zoning report um there's several pages long you know and a lot of you know I'm going to say probably 80% of it you're not going to care about but would you like to see those I never seen one so I don't have I it's hard for me to say if I do or do not need to see one but so what we can do you know next month can be we'll throw everything in there I think that me like to John's or Darren's Point some of it is might help and we got different people with different backgrounds up here that you know yeah I focus on the drawings right and so that's why sometimes it's better to put it in there because we're all going to gravitate to what we've either have experienc in or what we care passionately more about or learning about so that's it can be a good thing sure okay obviously the most important thing is your report that you present here but okay um so next month we'll throw everything in there you going to there'll be a large report as far as like the PowerPoint presentations go this will was I'm going to say overly simplified um did that tell you the information that you needed to know to make a decision this one definitely did for me well this plus it was nice though because I if there was something out there that wasn't I'm like oh I want to look at that more I could go back to the detailed you know what I mean like I was able so I don't mind the PowerPoint being a simplii version also as having more recently been an audience member through some of them right I didn't like I skimmed the whole report but it was nice to have it kind of summarized sure so from for the other people in the audience particularly if you have a neighbor coming to speak to a thing I think a simplified version is nice for them so the one thing that throws me off and it it can be cleaned up on the administrative side is I would like to see the Powerpoints attached as part of the minutes because the Powerpoints the slides don't always represent what's in the packet that's correct true yep and and so just from an administrative standpoint so what you know sometimes you crop or zoom in on something or your wording is a little different they give updated image that was in the packet so just from an administrative standpoint that'd be good can you just send us the PowerPoint ahead of time like the day before because I assume you're working on the PowerPoint beyond the packet uh no no no no that is I know the council has requested the same thing so you we can do that I think just part of minutes is fine it's just yeah I've always thought the city presentations were good I think they help us focus in on what we need to talk about you to see them before the meeting or after the meeting so today is today's PowerPoint presentation would be part of the notes for next month so it would I guess my interpretation would not be part of the official minutes but we would include that with the minutes so the minutes are the official record the minutes are the official so the way I would Envision the the the next month's packet would be you have your agenda your your minutes your past months power PowerPoint and then the new business stuff we can do that I I just think from trying to have to find history on things sure do you get a lot of calls John from Outsiders Brokers appraisers just people asking you about projects to verify stuff um based on what the Comm based on well cuz when when land sales and development starts occurring that's how people verify stuff to try to understand the transaction and the one thing we don't do that some other cities do is we don't really have a good minutes to begin with as far as searchable and so that's why people call you or email you is to find the information because it's not that simple where other cities you literally you can type in the name of the development and boom there there's the link to the minutes sure um that's something we should be looking yeah and the point where you the staff gets overwhelmed by calls is the more importance of hey you can just go find it but if you're not being overwhelmed calls it's not an emergency I do get a few calls um I have the capability of putting in keywords and searching minutes yeah we don't have a way or we don't have the software to display that on our website um so if like I've helped a few of you with questions specifically to find something and it takes me probably five minutes to find something that may have taken you an hour of searching so or like oh I don't remember what date or um so yeah if you have questions I'm happy to help answer them yeah and that was related to Peter's minutes but a lot again a lot of cities what I see is is in the not only the packet but the packet's like searchable so you can find stuff so you don't have to bug people at the city for it yeah so the example I'm thinking of yeah we don't all see our website is you have more of a I'm going to say GIS based search old database where you can click on that property and find the whole history of any they're not that sophisticated you more sophisticated and what we're capable right I just go to the city's website type in the name of the development and that's how I find it search engine typically on the search engine it'll pop up in their we are looking at a new website provider and we're hoping that that is one of the solutions um because our current website is not um user friendly on the administrative side either okay anything else I do really like how you when the zoning code applies and there's standards that you put the code and then just because that's nice some of these projects I just literally have to go read the code and I'm assuming you're doing that already when you cross check it is if you put it in the packet then I can just cross check it so I really like that so I'm going to assume the code is about a th000 Pages allowing that I never want to memorize it so I I I have to take good notes yep um you what what I found not unique to Dayton is there are sections that code that contradict each other and so it's good to no way um and you only find that out by um you know searching through the code and it's I'm going to say it's our own fault by every time we change the code it's like a domino effect that affects other parts of the code and you just you you can't see where all the effects are okay all right so Thursday June 6th at 5:30 we'll have coffee good motion toour second we have a motion in a second to adjourn all those in favor I I all those opposed we are adjourned e e e e