e e I'll call to order the Dayton City Park's October 1st meeting um call for Pledge of Allegiance please stand to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right I entertain a motion to approve the agenda all motion second Motion in a second okay um consent agenda you got take a vote oh all in favor say I I oppos same sign all right uh the consent agenda approval Parks Commission minutes entertain a motion for that all motion I'll second first and second all in favor say I I I I oppose same sign all right uh next on the list open form open to the public 3 minutes for non-agenda items agenda okay uh do we have anybody online for nope no no one's all right uh then next item Council update councilman TR uh thank you commission so there were uh some lengthy meetings I would encourage you to go listen to them I'm going to just kind of cover the specifics to uh this commission so the adopted Park program was um approved by the city council with the caveat that we'd cover the cost and not make them pay the cost for the sign so um that was good um the preliminary Levy was decreased so we decreased the tax rate to 35.539938 the DCM Farms concept plan we saw last meeting that still included the Parkland as recommended by the commission the national fitness program we saw last meeting as well and that was moved forward by the council to kind of look and see what kind of Grants we can get for it there did not seem to be a lot of um support for just building it to build it um so but if we can get a bunch of grants for I think that would change things drastically or if we can get a local concrete company to you know give us the concrete for free we next s placard saying that they donated it that might be a good way too for us to uh help cut the cost significantly and then uh we sent out to bid the park irrigation both the install and then the Water and Electric we sent them out as separate bids uh we should hear back from those Marty second so it be on the 22nd of October okay perfect and that is pretty much it any questions for me no thank you yep all right on to regular meeting items Trail prioritization discussion so at the last meeting we discussed um the trail segment that was uh we were hoping to put in this year that the county are going to put in in four years time with their project um that's why we took it out of this year's project and you guys wanted to re uh revisit what our prioritization was um in the packet I pulled together what I felt was all the relevant information so you could have a discussion there is some information in there from uh the presentation by Three Rivers Park District um and what their plans are going forward um so that's always good information to have to make a you know an informed decision um so I'm looking for you know to you guys to have a discussion and and fill out what the priorities are now since that one's gone away the the previous prioritization is in here how that was discussed in in the past okay so I do have a question for you okay um the one section on is okay sorry Elsie Stevens I know that section has been removed but what about further down we had said bosom to Donnie Galloway that's that's still in there is that yeah I was just wondering if that's still going forward cuz I remember I was talking about safe Crossings and so I didn't know if that would be affected with that also so I know that that was part of the safe Crossing safe routes to school I think that's what it was Sr RTS um and they were doing some um a review of that um but I haven't had any feedback from them if they were prioritized in that um and I think additionally there maybe a hening county project that is going to um take in that part of the the road as well at a later dat so that might be a consideration but I think that we can still go ahead and if that's something you want to pursue then I think that we can do that um we might have to work with city of Champlain or whatever to to make that a reality but I think that we can still pursue that okay thank you Matt the county has said over the next five years they're planning on read all the road they just redid they're planning on digging up and going all the way down and rebuilding the road from the ground up they're not doing any major improvements other than just rebuild the road so Mike and that's when the the trail that we were going to do was going to go in so um I think that's a great Trail and we should prioritize it how we want it but we may have the county say cuz that chunk of road is going to get dug up again just like the other Chunk we were looking at yeah and maybe we need to double check with the county and see what their plans are for that be my statement and I know that there there was some very loose discussion I think it's outside of their fiveyear CIP window at the moment um but they are planning on doing something at that end of the uh Dayton River Road at some stage here I'm thinking it's going to be you know maybe just outside the be wi before 29 I think is what they presented to us the 29 I thought it was 30 but I think 29 was the the rehab or the redesign I might I may be wrong as to 18's going on there okay so when I was looking through everything we had proposed um I think it might be the segment on segment three we had talked about trying to connect finewood um to North Diamond but we had that huge discussion that it would probably never pass because it was too close to the intersection and too dangerous but when we were but looking in here and looking at um the forest preserves Trails they actually show that gap for the medicine Lake Regional Trail they show it going way further down yeah and so but when I was looking on the maps there's like no road that exists there correct is is a trail just through uh through some land that's their preferred Trail rout okay so I was just wondering what would the process be if we tried to cuz we looked at Vinewood and then decided that wasn't safe so what would it be to look at doing it more like they have in their plan we would have to buy a land to do that um we could work with them to do that um if we do it if and it's on their um their uh Trail CIP uh then it probably be a situation where they'll reimburse us for it okay but I think that the ultimate game on that is to get through um up to South Diamond I believe is that trail route yeah mhm mhm yeah because we have trail from we have trail from the park all the way up to South diamond and then we have nothing getting people to North Diamond once they're at North Diamond then they can get all the way to LC Stevens so we just have this gap between North and South mhm any idea what the timeline is for Three Rivers uh when the land becomes available that's pretty open-ended there's no way to narrow that down they don't they don't just go in and buy stuff unless there a willing seller and they basically they put together chunks as they come available um so there's they don't operate on a time frame they call it a legacy project um which has no end date is when everything is secured and they can do it so if we would we do if we were doing it as a city would we go through a different process could we um if it actively see if we can buy the land and then get re well they would reimburse us for the trail section we would probably have to buy the entire uh piece of land to do it um and it would have to be part of a city project then um whether that be a park or something else or if a developer goes in there we can secure um the easement for the trail um at that time as well that's generally how we do it okay I was just trying to understand so it's basically just waiting it is waiting with a no guarantee it would be a nice to have here right so going back to segment three apologize I wasn't here for the discussion but it was too close to the road or too close to the junction there or yeah it's because it's right on the curve of Dayton River Road okay and that's a very high accident area and so to have people trying to cross there I think the problem we have right now though is that you got paths through R Creek you got paths coming up Pine View You' got cross into Pine View Meadows there's a path through that neighborhood so you can literally take paths all the way from Elm Creek all the way but you can't ultimately once you get to Vinewood the path stops so if someone's trying to get from Elm Creek to River Hills which is probably our biggest neighborhood in the community right you've got the stop so people are like they kind of just play Frogger on finewood and then they play Frogger on North Diamond Lake to get back into that neighborhood or they cross to because then you got the whole Dayton River Road that I mean that area right there where it goes Vinewood North Diamond din road is is Daisy is there any plans to rebuild that Mar uh there's I think in the redesign section of that they're going to do some work on that intersection with diamond uh Dayton River Road and North Diamond Lake Road so that intersection I don't know what that's going to be we proposed a roundabout in there um whether they go for that or not I don't know but uh they are aware that you know as part of that project we will be asking for an improvement at that intersection 2029 2020 2029 I believe cuz there's probably no chance of ever getting any kind of u a path that goes from Teakwood to Vinewood there right Vinewood is probably never going to have a path on it um not in the foreseeable future cuz I don't think we have the rideway secured down there to do that currently so we would have to buy ride away to do that okay it's just you know cuz you're just thinking about people that are riding bikes cuz I see them do it all the time and all they they just ride it on the road which obviously increases potential for accidents you know on the Vinewood and then they get on North diamond and they drive along North diamond with cars coming at them they just take their bikes into River Hills yeah cuz then once you get the River Hills then you can get the LC Stevens and so like it's pretty cool what we've got we just got that awkward spot there that I think yeah some of that stuff along River Road there would be taken care of when that you know that other trail goes in from 142nd up to CLK um so is there is a way to condu them but it's just a little convoluted is that what we're saying like with all the I don't think there as of right now there's not a way to do it just because we don't have the right away on Vinewood to get up to to North diamond and then once we get to North dond we don't have the RightWay there either we don't we don't have access to that we have the on North diamond we do have um RightWay U easement on the north side of the road with the development okay so that part of it it's just getting across North diamond is is the issue yeah cuz you have cars coming from both ways yeah fast yeah you guys have any thoughts on segments two and three before we move on nothing new okay I don't think I'm just staring at this intersection yeah I feel like I'm still just catching up to the previous discussion too so so with a cost savings by taking out segment two and three we could easily do segment one four and five if I'm not mistaken numbers wise except for we already said we didn't want to do five it wasn't um at our last meeting we decided it wasn't needed because they have an access at both ends into the park so there's really no reason to have a trail connect that's right we did talk about that yeah so we've already cut five out so really all we have left to look at is is segment one and then that um segment four unless we unless we pick something new unless we do a special session of sense and just talk about the trails and see if there's any other plots bring out the big Maps Marty has and is it crazy expensive to do one of those like bike tunnels that goes under yeah there's quite a few things that it depends where it is um where the water table is um and getting our approval through the county depending where it is and they are phenomenally expensive as well so I was like oh if we're saving money on all these other ones maybe we can do something that would connect the trails but yeah wasn't 2 million the estimate you got to go under Dayton Road yeah yeah Bally you're building a bridge under the road pretty much yeah there's a lot of moving parts so let's see was there any issues with segment one and four excuse me no it was just I was wondering if we were still going to do it because of the safe Crossing with the school but it okay and then the road getting redone but maybe it would just be something we'd have to wait plan with the county yeah and that could end up being what we're doing with this section that you know that the county taking so it might get pushed out you four years or whatever but we can certainly pursue that with the county with hening County and see where that lies within their plans yeah and I know there's a handful of kids speaking for myself and some of the neighbors now that have kids going to school in that neighborhood for a while it was you know that wasn't the case but it's starting to turn over our hands are really tight on segment forward just so that the commission is aware we've seen uh I think just as far as Concepts plans for that land right by it's a good segue um so we did receive a preim plant yesterday for the Western half of segment 4 so the reason I just want to bring it up was cuz we could ask them to build that as part of that P plats that would not only cut down the cost but it would get us all the way up to the that West French Road there east east french road sorry so segment four now you think that okay that a portion of the pipeline that runs through there is that that one that's that's the development but not where the trails yeah well and isn't Three Rivers Park is that part of where the r Creek Regional Trail runs as well yep okay say that again so this segment down here that we just look at as segment four um Rush Creek Regional uh Regional Trail is going to go along there as well so this part here oh yeah and then all Lo is that chunk and then they want the trail right here right Marty this corner so if we put it in that little trunk um then we should be reimbursed for that correct am I understanding how that process works I'm TR if it's part of a Regional Trail system we we will get reimbursed for it okay just like we did with the clo Overlook where where that trail um into their part was there that's part of their West Mississippi Regional Trail so we built it and partially designed it and then they reinvested us for the cost and the county that did or three rivers be similar here more than likely yeah that's what I would imagine that's what we would pursue but they go to the east from there on that corner correct uh yes it would follow Territorial Road to East and the developers aren't doing or they are potentially is they're finishing that neighborhood um which neighborhood that this new one that we're talking about that came in yesterday we can that one we can get um the rideway uh the easement for the trail with from the developer and even ask them to build it yeah okay I mean the most the more we can get done at the beginning rather than coming in later would be make sense to me so I want you guys say of all these segments that four is probably the one of the bigger priorities and more realistic to especially if we already have a developer in their building right now like to get that done would probably be the top priority of the five i' agree I would agree agree yeah of the options we have in front of us yeah of the five we have I would choose four to be the number one priority from what I'm seeing realistically yeah I would say four is the top and then we need to go forward and check with the county on segment one and then after that I think we need to maybe just have another session where we look at the whole map agreed and find new trails yeah what else do you need from us Marty I don't need anything else from you I think that's everything cool nice work work heal efficienc all right uh next item is the horse and snowmobile trails item C oh okay good evening so I I don't have a whole lot prepared so this the origin of this and anyone can correct me or just based on a conversation at at a previous uh Park Commission meeting several months ago that you know we should look at snowmobile trails um snowmobile trails that through so as the commission knows there are currently snowmobile trails that go through uh private property as well as through Elm Creek Park Reserve um the snowmobile trail that goes through Elm Creek Park is also a horse trail in the summer and so the idea here I believe was to kind of have a discussion of preserving these uh snowmobile trails as a permanent use and So currently back again is there's an agreement with private landowners to have snowmobile trails across Farmland as we have more development those are going to disappear um so if this has value to the community then this would be the time to start talking about preserving those and I don't necessarily mean preserving them where they're at currently but just having a snowmobile trail in Dayton that's per and if that's the desire then we need to figure out how to pay for that too um so just let's see so um this is a map from a Northwest Trail Association so again this is I'm I'm going to I don't know if it's this year or last year I'm going to just say it is a previous year's trail that goes all over uh past the Northwestern subur so just the Northwestern Metro um this is the border of henen County and then we have right County here uh the yellow highlighted area is the bottom 3/4 of Dayton so as you can see the only way to get into Dayton is through is on Brockton if this Crossing is shut down for whatever reason there's no way to connect uh from the larger trail system into Dayton uh so if that were Cur either U there's no more snowmobile trails in Dayton other than through Elm Creek Park or we need to create our own system um on here we have uh the Elm Creek Park Reserve uh summer Trails on the left and winter Trails on the right uh the green oh yes the green trail would be the horse trail that kind of goes uh through the Western leg as well as throughout the the main portion of the park and then winter it's a little easier to see it's purple and so this would be the snowmobile trail um Min inter standing from Through Rivers Park District is that snowmobiling is not looked upon as being a permanent Trail user it it's there until um there's it becomes a nuisance factor in which it might disappear uh when you think of trail design and I have to step back I I'm not a snowmobiler or or horse rider so I'm talking out of turn a little bit um this diagram is from uh the Minnesota DNR uh regarding kind of trail design where there's uh sensitive features so generally speaking what the guideline is is for 100 to two 100 to 200 foot um Trail I'm not going to call Trail withd but as far as a buffer area total buffer area um so that would be 5050 ft on on either side of the trail it's fairly significant so when we look at trail design just for a pedestrian Trail generally speaking it's 20 ft wide if we're looking for to try to create a natural experience for the snowmobile and uh horse users it's a much big it's a we're talking about a lot more land um and and trying to figure out okay if what are the uh the potential nuisance factors uh both ways if you have a house that's up against a trail you know typically the more distance the better if we have more distance there's the ability of planting of trees that are are going to be able to screen out the The View as well as some of the noise um things to think about so on the left we have you know snowmobile trail in the winter where you've got trees very forested trees on either side gives you that kind of uh Northern Minnesota experience in the summertime depending on the amount of rainfall it's not as usable so the idea in reading through the DNR man Trail manual is they they don't necessarily recommend having horse trails and snowmobile trails Co located together because they're just not as uh the snowmobile trail Trails just aren't as maintained they kind of chew the ground up when you get into um the early spring where you have you're in that uh priest Tha cycle um I don't know if Mark you're more of a horse guy than I am but uh you in the picture at the bottom and you know once again these are just off of uh primarily Google but I believe these are all pictures in uh Minnesota uh the bottom picture is from Three Rivers where you have horse trails horse users that are on the grass not necessarily on the on the trail on the dirt what I think of as a trail I don't know if that's better the horses have a preference or the Riders have a preference um I think as long as it's a soft soft um underpot Trail their horses won't mind they can go on the mud or they can go on on the grass um they just you know would be a paved surface and and preferably not a gravel surface either it's tough on their on their feet um so I think that you know the bottom picture is generally what you would see okay it that is it um so I guess what we're looking for is some direction from the commission is if you know for one is is there interest in pursuing Trails for snowmobiles and and horses and and I'm describing these as permanent Trails um if yes then the next step would be to talk to more people that are are more familiar with this as far as what is the possibility of having this in Dayton and then and what trying to to discuss that the uh length of Trail that's appropriate it's much different from snowmobiles where you're going you at least I'm going to say 20 mil an hour or faster versus a horse that's going good G in in my reading you know for snowmobiles uh the idea of Trail length is 50 100 miles so we can't do that in Dayton no um but we can have a loop where you can go 25 miles or or something similar I've done that and it's a couple hours great way to kill a couple hours on a Sunday or something my concern would be land viability if that makes sense we're talking about 100 to 200t sloth of land all the way through and with all the building going on do we even have that we do um so in Dayton we have have roughly 4600 Acres that is not developed okay can we pull up a map and kind of look at what you're talking about with some of that I mean could we make a loop all the way around Diamond Lake for the snowmobilers or would it just be uh I it's a better question for the snowmobilers um I was just talking about the I was going to ask if we've had any we being City staff I suppose any communication with that Northwest Trail Association like have they I wanted to get involved but I think they meet on Tuesdays so I'm here but um is there like I feel like I see other people out riding I know a couple other people personally who do I don't know how huge of an appetite there is in town though it's going to be expensive the money's got to come from somewhere that's going to be a challenge for sure but maintaining that connection of the outside trail system like I think priority number one in my personal opinion is protecting that more than like this would be awesome to have but you know when I look at these Trails like yeah I'm going to go up North for that like I don't expect that in Dayton but if I can ride from my garage to like Delano or something that's super cool too MH um and that's that's I think maybe more if Three Rivers even acknowledges in their Park it's a limited thing you know when that goes away and I think part of the norest Trail Association thing is that they're struggling to find every year they have to Route their route um because of development um we did uh broadly mention this to them um would they be interested in something that was a permanent thing and they uh the guys said yes they would be but it was kind of like uh I believe it when I see it type thing they weren't getting checkbooks out they weren't getting checkbooks out at that time but he was more focused on what he was going to do for this year but sure as a longterm solution I think they would be you willing to participate at least in the discussion I wasn't sure if it's something that that an organization like that has money to potentially partner with on on something like that and I think their partnership would probably be more on the trail maintenance side of it that makes sense two questions I have one as a person that's Pro snowmobiling um do we know like again we're talking about paths and stuff over here in budget for pass and paths are going to benefit 70 to 100% of the population here probably I think we have quite a few people that use the pass in the area MH just being very honest like I would guess probably less than 10% of our population is going to snowmobile in this area and in my opinion I know this sounds rude but as a person that's Pro snowmobile I just say we move on that's my opinion just because I think it's just we're using taxpayer dollars or dollars that are given to the city and I always think like how do we use everybody's money and in my opinion there's just not enough appetite for it that's just my just and again I'm Pro some be like I would love to do it here but I just go up North for that and I just know that that's what it's going to be I would agree I think if it's something that people had a desire for that was going to bring people to Dayton or I mean like I think about the this kayak thing that we're talking about with the launch and the end that it's like an experience that you can come to here if there was a way that we could make that a permanent experience erience that is enticing enough for folks that it's going to bring people here great but I also question just because they come here to snowmobile is that going to really add any like value like because we don't have a lot of like businesses yet that they're going to like go spend money at the bar afterwards I mean you could make a case that maybe if there was a path that led to Sundance or LED to we do currently right so that's good right that that works and like in ramsy like people drive go on the back on R River Hills and on the trail and stuff and they go to the bar there like that's they have lunch and they have it's a whole thing so that to me makes total sense cuz we're helping drive you know Revenue to our local businesses but let's say the cost of this is 200,000 or 300,00 whatever it is and then it doesn't snow next winter or no one uses it and just try out like realistic things like if only 10% or 5% of the population is using it or if it doesn't snow in my op I'd rather see us look on another segment that we're looking for pass or add more concrete somewhere or tar somewhere or whatever me for people getting out with bikes and and and walking and running and all that agreed what was your second comment then I guess m the second was the uh cost okay like roughly if we had an idea like if we wanted to get dialed in with the trail you know with those guys or we looking at a couple hundred thousand we looking at Millions yeah okay let me you get my answer so is it the same answer with horses horse trails yes I would think so I mean horses are just too small part of the population expensive to own so I don't think a lot of her yeah what if we added CrossCountry skiing or snowshoeing to the horse trails that was question that or pave Trails as well yeah I mean CrossCountry skiing I know a lot of people in my neighborhood cross country key but I don't know if that's like the general population or if I just happen to have a random would we be competing with Three Rivers par District over that that's that's what I also wondered too cuz they already have a really well-maintained thing and it's hard to maintain cross country skiing and they and they have a rental by it's a really nice setup there I guess my question ultimately then is for the people that live in the city of Dayton that want a horseback ride that want a snowmobile that want a horse shoe or um Snowshoe or that want a cross country ski they already have access to those things at some level already it might not be perfect but they have access to those things already so my opinion we' just not do this that would be you know just cuz they don't want to double up and again we've got all sorts of pavement we need to still do you know for walking running and all that I think one thing to bear in mind we're not just looking at it from this perspective now we're looking at for the future when not all this land is developed and we can't preserve it anymore then you're pretty much saying that there's not going to be the opportunity a snow mob mhm yeah cuz that's that's my concern I mean I'm not a snowmobiler but a lot of people come here because they have access for their horses and their snowmobiles and so it's a huge perk for me personally I no trailers just out of my garage yeah so I I guess I think that we need to look into it that's my opinion I'm not saying that we have to create a ton but what can we do to help preserve some of their access points what can we do to just help try to keep what already is MHM because once it's gone it's gone yeah as it develops get the land for it is it fair to say John there's kind of maybe two different ways to look at this one would be to create a whole trail system that's specific to Dayton and one might be just to have connectivity to Three Rivers for horses and S mobiles to preserve for the future versus well what I'm talking is trying to make the connections snowmobiling where you know you just go across a lake or a farm field it's very different in the winter than it is during the summer when the land is being used um you know we're talking about building pedestrian Trails throughout the city um you know that's for you Walkers Runners and bikers um you know snow uh snowmobiling or CrossCountry skiing or something like that's just another form of activity or horseback riding so um I'm not aware of another community that has I should say a city that has a public whether it's a horse trail or a snowmobile trail um so it would be very unique to date I would imagine the cost is a big deal so that's got to be the factor of why nobody's doing it so let let's we've heard both your opinions appreciate it that's your on the way down what are your guys thoughts on horse trails and Stow mobile Trails um thinking from a as a Minnesota master naturalist I'm thinking about the trail specifically maintenance for the for horses and how um you know with that muddiness and how rough that might be to maintain I'm wondering if like something like that might be better uh maintained by putting a bunch of like Clover or something like that down that's not so then it helps to soak up a lot of the rain and and whatnot and it might actually help with the maintenance to not be so spendy year to year um for those Trails but that's kind of one of the only thoughts that's come through my head from that I am not a snowmobiler or a horse rider so yeah yes yeah in northern Minnesota the it's different they actually have consistent snow so there's probably not as much of uh getting torn up like we're seeing on the top right here but the trails in the summer are just like grass hiking trails part of the you know this and that the tack Trail whatever um that being said I don't think having those you know paying for those trails to exist in Dayton makes sense I don't think the taxpayers would be pleased I think it probably make people just hate snow wheelers more because look at all that land we could be doing with some you know with other things with what would we do with what what are the other things it would be land that houses are on giving us tax base um parks for everyone to enjoy because it's you know all the kids can play on them versus just the kids who have a snow wheel and the family um but you know what we have in Dayton today that's so much enjoy so enjoyable for me isn't this 100 foot wide Corridor either it's something I can do on a Sunday that you know kill some time or connect out to the to the broader Trail Network and that's to me that's important is just maintaining what we can that connection to the broader work and then Elm Creek while they have it mhm um if there's a way that you know I don't know if the city's role in that would be or the city's place but there's a way to keep that in mind or I don't know what that land ownership looks like in that corner of the City by quick trip really but I know some way to maintain that would be awesome so there was a plot that came up for development on that trail and we specifically asked them if they were to continue to allow snowmobilers to use that okay trunk of trail to connect from quick trip up to East French Lake so I think that's what we want to do glass place or something if that's what we want to do that's part of why we want to know so that we can continue to push for those things so it sounds like that's kind of what I had in mind is cool we're thinking about that we're we're not going to force people to do something they don't want to do necessarily but if it's something we can voice I think that's valuable and that is like the representation of some of the residents at least yeah I fight with the tax base and keeping Mary's team busy with filling the mud holes and everything I like the Clover idea plan it a lot myself but everything gets money and I fight myself at the tax base so I don't think it's worth pursuing unless we can add it into discussion but throwing money at it I don't see it do the right of ways and ditches get torn up much from the snow wheels just connecting to like I usually kind of Pop through the ditches and it's not like we're going fast or anything you couldn't if you wanted yeah I don't I don't think that we have an issue with that currently um and I I will say I think that the picture there was fairly extreme whereas it's it's muddy I think that was you know that was like fun to me in a different vehicle fourwh that's fine so I I don't think that that would be the issue I think that you know a lot of these trails are used for horses and and snowmobiles they you know in the summer you see them and there's horses on there no problem and you know they grass over and it's fine that's what I was I the what I remember from Elm Creek the horse trail right there that I've seen is yeah usually grassed over pretty well but if you can shut them down when the conditions are bad usually people don't want to be out riding but also some people have just been cooped up all winter that as soon as there's snow M you know you hear them out and then that can be hard on the earth you have everything you need from us so the direction is not to pursue the snow will or horse trails I do think it's wise though in city council when things come come up but they can ask are you willing to keep this and I think part this that doesn't really cost us anything to do that does it I don't think I think that we have to have it on a on a plan somewhere that that is yeah sort of just like the trails thing if we if there's a trail or a park in the land that they're proposing they are aware of it cuz it's on our master plan we say encourage um the continuity of of existing trails I think we need to identify it to some degree at least is well yeah yes otherwise we can't enforce it if it's not on the map so area 21 for example like the uh power line is a snowmobile trail and we're trying to plan for that in through area 21 um I don't remember how we plan for it through the homes that are being built I think I don't think we did I think that's the problem I think that's why we're here today um because uh residents don't want it going down underneath the power lines where it traditionally has gone um there's going to be the park there and there's going to be houses in the neighborhood and they are concerned about safety so that's kind of you know what SP some of this conversation I think safety more than noise I guess I would have thought noise noise yeah I mean if they're running downit you know between in the neighborhood safety is probably easier to treat than noise is what I'm thinking if it's just safety that's you know you can't make sleds quieter and build that thing on I worri a safety thing in and you know marketing or something speed sure I think that's what they you know people I've heard from residents there's the speed coming through there it's potentially going through the trail that's on the on the path there maybe people on the trail and they don't really want snowmobiles on the trail with studs on and stuff that tear up the trail so you know it could have been better planned out if we had had plan ahead I don't think they could any still all out anyway but I think that's a good example of if we would have planned ahead and we knew we wanted that there we could have asked the Builder to put Pines along the back of those homes to help then create a sound barrier that maybe would have asked them to eat up 10 12 feet you know of extra land but then those homeowners would have got guaranteed trees in the backyard so it's kind of a trade-off so I don't know if you're really financially putting out the builder at that point in time but um it's it's something to think about I think that's good point the area 2 it's not though 12 ft not to correct you it's 100 200 ft that's if you want to keep it from protected area but we're just talking from a house so that's if you want to keep it from the sensitive ecological area in this case we running it between homes which is different and I don't think it's okay like it's opportunistic for snowmobiles while they're you know while they have a place um you know once s Creek maybe shuts them down if if interest wanes maybe electric zils become all the rage and then noise isn't an issue okay okay thank you can make those right now I don't know next item is cdaa participation charts and discussion so I originally put this in um the packet so you would be aware of the um the information um just have a discussion um and then I was going to ask uh for cdaa to come back if you felt there was some questions that you wanted to ask since that time Rick has a volunteered to come here and ask and answer any questions you have so Rick come this is Rick clner from cdaa thank you for coming Rick actually pulled the the the study together yes Rick clner uh 12701 Overlook Road in Dayton Minnesota I'm also the executive director elect CD AA uh so I had provided some data to Marty just to kind of show the trends of participation in the sports of champlin and Dayton a athletic association and the uh the um participant baates and the change over time um and just a high level um just to give a where things are going obviously we know Dayton is growing but just uh from our numbers of what we're seeing and and we're we're Champlain's also seeing this data and they're putting pressure on us um which we I've mentioned to uh people uh before and um to um put pressure on the city um to uh um get Park land U because they see this happening so if you look at uh s years ago uh the ra the ratio of Champlain participation to Dayton participation was about 9 to1 today it's about two and a half to one um so a large change in in seven years um and if you look at just the uh younger grades eight and under it's two to one so even if we don't add any more houses to the city it's going to go we have younger families they're going to age more of those kids are going to be uh in in participation it's going to be a 2 to one the the field usage is about 2 and 1 half to one right now what Champlin provides to Dayton um and so we're in good good ratio there but as as you can tell it's going to quickly change as things are going as you know um we can add land you know get to that 2: one where we're at with the younger ones you know we add a little Park here and a little park there that might get there but with the growth of the city we're not Dayton is not going to be able to keep up and and we need to get land now cuz you you know our preference is get the land now and build out as we need it but even if you get land now it's four or five years before you're really going to you start getting it get it acquired buy it plan it and develop it it's going to be several years before um there's going to be land or any parks that are usable out of this so um and obviously as you get closer to develop land the cost rise dramatically as you get you know 23 land is probably already getting pretty expensive um so um you're really looking at to get more affordable land unless you get an ideal uh location I do realize that the staff is working on um some properties uh are had discussions with some properties already and have in the past and we continue um and so encouraged to do that um ask you know CDA can help um either in planning um or even financially um our preference would be the city to purchase the land and we will help develop it um but if if you you need hump to get over that um CD has we do have have some funds uh to help with that if if need be either on a loan or something like that um for sure uh be open to those discussions can you go to the football slide and then can you walk us through you know the chart here with like age groups yeah football is a tougher one because it's it's a much smaller sport so um uh looking at this um so the uh red line that's the date and participation so when it comes football actually Dayton participation is is fairly low but uh total numbers of football many years ago with uh concussion uh scare actually has dropped everything dramatically um and we actually get a lot that's the one sport where we get a lot of Brooklyn Park participation and we've actually used quite a bit of school uh land in that also okay is there a slide that better uh look at the largest Sports would be softball baseball and soccer those would be on probably better because those are the larger numbers so so if you look at um we were at about uh 10% uh and now we're over 20% of Dayton participation Champlin has gone from that you know 75 down to about 50 is that just from Champlin like their population they have aged yeah um that's going to probably stop pretty soon they're probably not going to be going down as much anymore obviously Dayton is going to is very young there's going to be even like you said even without any additional homes that rate's going to continue to climb just if you look at our youngest age groups and that's all age groups this Char that is all age groups I provided a table that showed the eight and under I don't have that over time that's fine I was just curious yeah and so if you look at soccer um again same growth uh close to a little bit less 18% and so we're talking about a 2 to one a two do an half to one uh a little bit less uh or a little bit more larger of a ratio on soccer but um baseball and softball is closer to that two and a half to one sure ratio so the in general though the program is growing and so we need more land to have more places yes and definitely if you look at what you know the age of the Daton residence and such there's there's a large growth in the younger that makes sense I soccer coach this year for and you get a little bit of in historically in the past Champlain had actually helped um maintain some of the fields at Jackson and such so we had a little bit more access there um they're not doing that anymore um their numbers are down they don't have the staff to be able to do it um so if anybody that participated say had kids in in baseball and trying to use Jackson Fields you know the school district lets those fields grow extremely long they're not ever hardly ever dragged so they're in really bad shape and so we're we're lacking in some decent Fields already in baseball and softball soccer we seem to be working out we've gotten some additional use we'll Pro probably in the future be looking to get some additional you know spaces uh for our soccer Seasons from from Dayton but we can work with Barbie there's a couple ideas of what we might be able to do of the but that's short term yeah of the charts that you shared it looks looks like our participation is going up non-resident participation is going up Champlain participation is going down right over the last 10 to 15 years what are the overall particip participation numbers um you know from 2010 to 2024 what does the growth look like you know and how tight are we and what is the growth is it are we on it similar you know is Dayton matching Dayton's growth and participation matching up with how much cdaa is growing cdaa pretty flat or where we at um it it's probably more flat right now it is down from 10 years ago uh probably 10 or 20% uh but again we we're not we don't have some of the fields that we used to have uh in the past and we've lost some you know and we used to have two parks at the old U uh even in Dayton within we used to use more fields at the old Public Works it's there's one field now which is pretty close to the road which limits its use also so there's some fields that were down in space but uh participation in mostly the overall Sports is is down slightly i' say 10 20% um from the peak 10 or probably 15 years ago okay and so if uh if we're level or down in some of those yep um does it make sense to be adding more fields or Parks specifically for that if we're not necessarily seeing the growth in the participation um but if you look at where how Dayton is growing we will be growing there will will be growth that we won't be able to keep up with so Dayton a Champlain is going to not be shrinking uh they're they're not going to get much less than they are now and dates Prett growing so I said at the moment we're flat that's after declining it's going to be it'll be increasing again and what has have there been any conversations with getting access back to some of those fields in Champlain or no or the fields were a school district like Jacks Mill so we still have access to them um they're just in really bad shape um and we are not allowed to maintain them uh the city of champlin could um but and that helps so we're still using them um they just not Quality fields that we prefer not there's safety issues there's we can't really have games at those and so it does limit our use of the non-resident uh are we is it mainly Brooklyn Park Rogers or it's mostly Brooklyn Park we do get a few actually probably more from a girl we get some depending on a lot of times depends on what School uh they're going to um a couple occasionally for Rogers not a lot from Rogers cuz I was just looking at it right now if Champlain's got the majority of the field or a lot of the fields or um you know is there possibility that Brooklyn Park would help fund this yeah we we do um we do lacrosse we do use a fields in in uh Brooklyn Park um that is used currently um we can uh um talk to Brooklyn Park about some of of this in use um and something one of our Avenues uh in the future to do or we just limit Brooklyn Park participation eventually though we're going at the point um and I know champlin's brought us up they're eventually going to force us to say datton residents are going to have to pay a non-resident we're going to have to charge dat residents more no I get that I'm just looking at like from 2011 to now in baseball and softball the biggest one Dayton's gone from 82% to 21% right and non-res is gone from 16 to 28 so obviously champlin's carried a lot of the brunt of this but I feel like you know Dayton's going to help it' be cool if Brooklyn Park or whoever else is you know so that it's getting equal representation equal funding from all the people and currently they pay a lot more money we charge them a non-resident fee and that actually goes to the the cities currently so that that is funds that actually go um we write out check city of Dayton every year um and and Champa uh with those funds those funds whatever from uh Brooklyn Park get split between the two cities currently I'm personally for us you know helping out in our fair share and everything and and yeah I don't I I agree that you know more field space and and everything is definitely needed having experienced that with soccer this summer was pretty insane so um it makes sense to me um I have lots of questions about like what space we currently have available that could be used as well for developing fields and whatnot I even think about the Hayden Hills Park baseball field and if that can be those were never designed to be used that way um a lot of the stuff with the neighborhood parks is going to be parking and you getting people in and out those things well that was the area 21 Barb we need we need a lot more parking than was originally planned might work for like a practice for a team of 10 but not so much you're right once you have a game now you all see you got 20 25 carss neighborhood and um difference between developments 30 years ago and now driveways are a lot closer together and so there isn't the street parking that you would on a lot of these neighborhoods that you would have had and some of the like in champ and some of those those neighborhoods and so there's it's um a double whammy there if you don't have the the um off street parking So currently we don't have land that we own that would be space that could not enough so 60 I used to do scheduling for baseball so give you an example so uh McNeil field in the village um is for 13-year-old baseball there's four teams that share that one field for games so you have one team that will have two games per week um and then practice two times for week the math doesn't work so you have mcneel that's used as a game field uh Monday through Thursday and then they practice at Jackson which is not maintained at all so the need really in just for baseball is to get probably two whole wheels one for older kids are one for younger kids and the request to land is 60 right 60 AC is what we're looking for um it depends on the property but yeah more than likely it' be and that's a want I what's the bare minimum need for two wheels 45 38 um no I'm thinking it's more like 60 maybe 80 so you you have the fields you have parking and then there's also res residual activity so if you have um you know hundreds of people that are using that Park on any given day or weekend and there needs to be an activity for the younger kids to do so now you're adding playground space storm water ponding it it it becomes a bigger Trail you want to tie it in the trails and happen around the on the fields so this is a yeah there a lot ideally you know even if you do a large partch like that a community event like if you ever get a very large Festival we have P Stevens but that's by the time you get to be 40 50,000 that's probably not can be large enough for uh a a major um event you just aren't going to have the parking and there's no close close by parking to serve that Park um from shuttling people and if we weigh too much lineer all the land's going to be gone yeah be gone it's just going to get more expensive yeah yeah so then where does the the funding come from for all it's a mixture of things or is it all city funding to purchased and build I think it's it's generally it won't um for the the big Sports field that would uh not come from development funding that only goes to development partk so it would have to come from the general fund um so that would be uh tax base driven is there money being put aside for this comp there has been money put aside for it do you know how much we have I do not currently know5 a year for the past eight I want to say 1.5 million no no no I think it's 150,000 I think was put away but I don't know the exact numbers I don't want to we' been talking so I think you have couple hundred thousand at least of our our money that we've that's been put into a fund and the itself is going to cost to approve the end goal that's that's small money compared to the end end goal is something like an Andrew's park or something like that right kind of bigger going to be twice the size of what rough I know last time you were here we asked us to but like are we thinking it's in the five million range are we thinking this is in the 20 million range like realistically what does this look like it's a yes between there between 5 and 20 dep again depends on the size and the number and you don't have to do it all at once it' be a phased approach for sure it's getting the land is not $5 million if it helps for Benchmark we saw some land that was potentially going to go for sale it was about 60 um it was in 2030 land so it gives you the further out it is the cheaper it is and they were selling it for somewhere between 6 and 8 million just for the land yeah so 60 Acres yeah so if we're trying to say 203 lands already getting yeah so if we're in for 10 million on the land and the build out is going to be another 10 or more maybe five 15 20 million somewhere 10 15 yeah it depends how many structures you put in there and what what all is and again we would be helping well that you guys have you said before that you have grants available as well we we yeah we have revenue and and there are grants that you can apply for and try and help with some of that and obviously we like I said we would um we' expect City put in the basic structure get the field whatever we add you know help with dugouts lighting irrigation other stuff like that from a revenue perspective do we know how Andrews does on some of the different things that they sell there concession cuz that to me would be part of it is if we're going to take on a $20 million hit what can we do over a 10 20 30 year plan to try to bring Revenue back in for the city they lease it out to currently it's uh the lookout MH um and I I'm mostly they want to do just to for the people there I don't think they're looking at it as a revenue but I do think they are paid some I don't have any idea how much it is though but they're still getting the lease it is but the city is also building that you know essentially commercial kitchen and leasing it back to try to make its money its investment back so it's I can't imagine it's a money maker for Champlain it's it's just a could it m try main the building so so I guess my question is this isn't I mean you've come a couple times and we've always said we need the fields so I kind of feel like we just keep talking I mean I'm not trying to be but we just keep talking in circles so what is our next step as a commission how do we help what do we do because has there been people looking for the city for this land we've been looking curious what those next steps are because of the fact that is there way to look harder we've been looking the fire station they were looking and then maybe it's just a matter of waiting and then the right place came up but wait over the years we've looked at numerous uh different U plots of land um and for whatever reason um they've not come by um people have taken options on land that was going to be used for um a park um some people have uh decided they didn't want it to be a park and wanted it to be developed um others family members said that they don't want it to go that way um they would rather sell it um and some are just you know we had haven't made that much progress on it um I it goes up in value once they find out the city's developing it um as a park um so we have been looking and there's several things come across a table we've done concept plans numerous times on different uh 80 acres 100 acres 120 acre lots of land but none of them have actually come through to fruition um we are looking at uh getting a land broker to start looking actively for the city the same kind of process that we use to the fire department um so that's kind of where we're at at the moment but it's not that the city is not looking we've been actively looking for a number of years okay any other questions anything you want me to try and find out and I know we talked about this last time you but currently this year all of the parks that we have are being used by CDA for sports but there's only some that you're using using and some that CU I know there's some that weren't at the level that you want them to be at that aren't getting used Diamond Lake diamonds some Public Works the old public works yeah yeah and you use Rivers Ben Park as well didn't you yeah so that's one you're looking at we're looking at improving I believe Diamond lengths um we are using Rivers's band we're using the fields here um I think like from a cost perspective if the city's involved instead of having to do you know for struggling to find land or whatever it may be maybe we make a commitment each year to doing a different level of Maintenance at the existing Fields um to make them more usable or up to the level that you need them to be at and we do those projects rather than you know if we can't get the new land and work with what we have I think it it still comes back down to you know the the other fields that we're using for practice that aren't really suitable for games um again it's a parking situation more than anything and the one down on diamond diamond diamonds um is too close to the road that's and that's the bigger issue there but Rivers Ben Park um it's got limited Park in there um I think you know it's one thing to have a practice there but when you got two teams bring in everybody you're double in the I think that is we had used that this year I believe games and it worked worked fine I I drove by it I don't think that was you it was parking down the road but it wasn't you know again those houses the driveways are farther apart so there's sufficient Street Marty H attached are you to that Highway Department on there the maintenance building on Diamond Lakes how attach are well there's a lot of stuff in there that has it's useful storage for us at this time sure all our overflow storage is in there that we can't fit in the current Public Works building but if we expand that and clean out this place we'd be able to help build a betterall there was two Fields there to make one one field that with parking maybe that could address it's a shuffle over the cards but an idea yep Rick can I lead the witness a little bit here so you had email me and there's a question that wasn't asked I thought might be helpful for them if we if Dayton residents had to pay a nonresident fee what would that cost the average household oh boy I have to look at the numbers I I I I'm thinking uh a typical family probably would be about $150 a year have to p and right now it's like 90 right you're additional additional what they're paying now so if you have two kids and you're doing each doing two sports and two outo sports okay and so if you're having to pay an additional I think it's like $30 a sport okay so that's 60 120 um maybe maybe it's five I think I was speaking around five sports maybe they did one did three and one did two a sports and be additional $150 so for me that was good context I want to make sure you guys heard from him the other thing that John said that might scare some people is well we need something twice the size of Andrews so just for for um level setting Dayton's got 25,000 people sorry champlin's got about 25,000 people in it Zach and John did some projections and when Dayton's fully built out what was the number you guys came to 50,000 twice the size of champ well but that's not going to come tomorrow that'll be 2040 2050 and be and you're right if you compared Champlain Benchmark V most cities it's underp parked there is not as much Parks as most communities that makes sense um it's about baseball field I think I provided some Benchmark data and I think Eric Carlson had provided was about uh one park for thousand residents One D I think that that might have included School pars whatever but total mold land it's it's slightly under where most communities uh in the Metro are I do I do think that it makes sense to try to find land sooner than later and and although we might not get the most revenue from something like this I do think that it is a draw in any Community I mean Andrew's Park is used so much by they do a great job with utilization of what they've got I mean they tried to get more years ago more land and parked and referendum was turned down and they're struggling they got now they put it in a very large you know beautiful space that very expensive cost because it came later when things were developed but yeah on Long the river yeah I feel like Dayton residents would be proud to have our own version i' love to take my kid to Sports in in our own town so far it's been which is still great it's it's close but yeah as a point of Pride I'd love to not pay the fee andm to yeah agre thank you thank you thank [Music] you all right um last item e dedication Park dedication cash V expenditure policy Marty that's a lot um so this is something that Zach asked me to include in the packet um it's I think the staff report uh outlines what we're trying to achieve here I think there was some confusion as to where funds were going um where it was going the park dedication fees were put into a central pot and it was either you know 75% to parks and 25% to Trails or some some percentage that way um and I think that what they're we're trying to get to now and what's been talked about is that uh the the bigger percentage of the park dedication fee goes through a uh Park in the neighborhood uh where that those fees were collected and I think this is a a first stab at trying to pull this policy together so um I was looking at you guys to to look through it and come back with any um changes or comments or that kind of thing that needs to be included in here um and then we'll take take that back to Zach and and then ultimately go to the council for approval so we don't have any specific funds for Trails since the5 for the premiere uh I think there I think there's a separate trial fund now okay yeah there's a SE they get Park dedication fees and Trail dedication fees but they all come from um brand new homes being built so they're not part of the tax levy to okay just want to make sure our Trails W dropped SE sorry so that document is separate it's not that it's been dropped okay would that 25% for Premier destination be which are like something like LC Stevens as well as this potential future Community Park those would both be the kind of central myed yes is is this basically just putting in writing what the default practice has been generally if if we were to look over the past couple years this is something totally different to what we have been it's just been going to a central uh fund and then we would design the park and then fund it from that Central fund wherever that money was coming from this is um trying to put money back to where it came from more than do we know what it's actually shaken out to be have most of the funds gone to neighborhood parks and we've been lacking on the community park funds or vice versa I think the majority spent I think the majority of it has gone to neighborhood parks okay you looking at me so seven Zach told us 78 78 goes to the neighborhood on which the money was collected and 1/8 goes back to the premier destination as it that's been the general that's what Zach told us at the last I think it was the last final update which we know aren't cheap anyways by area 21 and that build out mhm so um if how do we end up paying for maintenance and when we have to redo a par so that's a separate fund um that comes from the general fund and the maintenance budget for the parks so that there will be a separate fund I can't remember what the number is but it was something that we uh when we tried to do Donnie hell's we found out we couldn't use the dedication funds there so we set up a separate fund that is funded through taxpayer dollars um and that goes to replacing or renewing existing part Parks this is only for brand new parks and is that maintenance fund just a general pool for when it's needed for whichever Park if one Park needs a huge upgrade it gets it if if or is it like each Park gets a percentage it's not like it will be where the need is sure makes sense any other thoughts from anybody on first glance and if you want to email me something if you think about something after the me in feel free to just send it to me okay Mar are you looking for just a review or for an approval I'm not looking for an approval at this stage I was looking for discussion and there's any questions that we have yeah I can't think of any questions right now okay would this go in front of council uh I'm not sure I need to to talk with Zach about that are you thinking that we should get an approval from these guys and then send it to the council my concern would be is that if you were going to bring this to council before the next Planning Commission meeting they wouldn't have a chance to make an actual um suggestion or what's the appropriate I can't think of the term thank you recommendation to the council okay um but I'd hate for them to miss the opportunity to make an actual recommendation which is why I was asking when you were planning putting this in front of council okay well we can certainly bring it back you know with any comments and changes to the next uh Park commission Mee and then we'll have an approval in that stage and then forward it to the council work for me the other item that we had to email you Marty from the last meeting did you start receiving information from the bark the bench types yeah Brent sent me some stuff today um who else we go um Dave and Carrie okay so for you two also get that in that'd be great I help Dani with a letter so you did I did wrote a letter first one ever but it was cool thanks for reaching out um I know the city did like that Community engagement survey thing for Council when those results are compiled are we able to get a copy of those too as commission members is just to help us have these discussions and our constitu there was a request to have it on this meeting but um uh Zach wanted the council to weigh in on it first and and get their thoughts on it and then we will bring it to the council at the next potentially next uh uh Park commission meeting when is it gone in front of the council I'm not sure when that is October 8th so the next meeting so so November we would see it yeah yeah okay I think it'll be made available to the public too at the point it's been available to the council or shortly Afters what's that the next day yeah yeah the next day because it be part of the cancel packet get it in my email so you would be able to see it before that if you wanted to and that may tie directly into the question I asked Rick earlier because there was a question on there about an I think the athletic complex was one of the questions yeah and so there may be some tie into what I asked him and what you see in the results okay yeah I'm thinking that'll help other stuff to the snow buing thing how are people prioritizing maybe if everyone said we need more outdoors I don't know think it'd be really valuable to have that information when it's available yeah anybody else have any questions for Marty before we move on to the next one all right uh notice announcements next commission meeting uh will be November 5th already sound bus Day election day that's awesome in the past we did last time we did the Monday prior didn't we break all the calendars which makes we can do Monday or Wednesday I think we did the Monday before I'm good with the Monday prior the fourth sure is that fine looking at my calendar doing they've had city council meeting T night before so I would imagine so yeah yeah so 114 for the next one sure okay good works for meble check yes yeah why not I don't know who all knows already but this is my last um Park commission meeting I'm moving to oana at the end of the month so oh wow I know so I'm we miss you thank you you want to work for Federated or what my husband is actually really okay there you go that's why people go to otana I've been through this before you know something about something yes so I appreciate you all and it's been fun while I've been here it's going it was a really tough decision but it's best for our family and good luck it's a good place yeah it's a very good place we've had friend we've lost friends to with before it's a good place thank you for everything thank you it's pretty s so thanks for everything yes thank you all uh entertain a motion to adjourn my motion second all in favor say I I I'll [Music] oppose e