e e I will call over the April 23rd regular meeting of Dayton city council Standford pledge i al to the flag of the United States of America and to theic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice all right uh so after to read a statement of the followup to closed city council meeting on April 9th I have to give this summary I have to give this summary is required by Minnesota statute section 1305 subdivision 3A city council met in a closed meeting on April 9th 2024 for the purpose of conducting a performance evaluation of the city administrator z d the overall conclusion was that Zach was Zach has done a good job this past year and we appreciate his tireless dedication and hard work during the evaluation discussion the council directed Zach to identify some professional goals that he will work on in the coming 12 months and we will revisit these goals as part of his next performance evaluation okay um I need a motion in a second to approve the agenda there's one consent item yep so I just need to add uh temporary liquor license for 614 for a family fun night uh the lines are pulling up um that would be E1 uh Li license okay any others okay any any motion a second I'll motion with changes a second okay I got a motion a second any more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no motion carries unanimously consent agenda I need a motion at second that would be with the amended item I'll motion I'll second okay got a motion a second any discussion I did have two questions okay um Marty I don't know if you got a heads up on this one but on the payment of claims um on page 29 there's a subscription for uh fuel cloud and I just couldn't picture what that was now that's for our fuel dispensing station at public works that's how the all the transactions are done through the cloud so everybody has it on their phone and uh it's that service that we're paying for okay thanks um the other one was on the Sundance green 10th edition um I'm just want to make sure I'm reading it right it's for one more lot you are correct it was I know said you correct yeah cool okay okay thank you anybody else okay you got a motion second all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no consents passed unanimously open forum is anybody here for open Forum okay open Forum limited to three minutes for non-agenda items state your name and address no console action will be taken and items will be referred back to staff I'm Ron basara 3871 121st Circle Northwest Rapids Minnesota I'm with RJ Ryan construction we are working on the M ml MTL project on U 1181 18350 118th Avenue and what I'm here to do is ask for permission to extend our working hours this Thursday the 25th till about 11:00 at night we're pouring concrete we have a 1200 yard pour and it's probably going to take us to about 11:00 to get it finished it'll be our last pour in that particular building so it's just the one time in the one evening well we we actually have uh poured three other pores our first one we did not come and ask for permission um we uh have been uh I'll call it blessed with the police department patrolling our project thank goodness but anyway we had talked with the officer and that officer had put me in contact with Zach and that's when we learned of this Zach granted us uh permission to go forward with a poor that was already scheduled last Thursday that ended at about 11:30 we poured again to today will be done about 8:00 so today is a lot shorter uh but I'm thinking with the poor that we have coming up on Thursday it's probably going to go to 11: is there any more after that no we're pretty much poured out of that third building so we have out of the four buildings on site this will be the last big pour that we have everything else will be outside during regular business hours and what was the date you said it was 2 the 25th this Friday Thursday Thursday I don't I don't May mayor members called to we typically have working hours from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. and when we have any ex exemptions from those or requests from those we always have those approved by Council just as a formality so that everyone knows what's happening and it's not just a decision made by staff a decision made by Council so I temporarily gave permission in order and it said if any you know resident complaints come in it's immediately stopped essentially until Council has heard it but we have I heard nothing so I'm just want to provide the information to I'll make a motion that we approve the extended working hours for this event and I guess forgiveness for prior events and hopefully you you um are doing buildings here in the future you'll come sooner Mother Nature hasn't been very kind this year with their takes me a week to dry out every time it rains so it really has put us behind so okay any second I'll second okay mat MH okay any more discussion on that all those in favor say I I all those oppos say no motion carries 5 Z okay uh anybody else for open Forum um anybody online nope all right we will close open Forum staff consultant Council update Zach yep uh mayor council I only have one update tonight that's just a reminder for about a month from now May 22nd we have our open house and truck roundup for the city that'll be at public works this year um we are planning on lots of parkings for individuals that join because last year we ended up going halfway down Zanzibar Lane and that's quite a walk once you get to you know get halfway down there so um but we look forward to having that event again in it's about a month um Council and like I said all residents are invited to come out and join us it's from 5:00 p.m. to 7: p.m. and we'll provide um food and fun so come out and join us that's all I got the date May 22nd okay um 5:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. thank you Amy um we have um open filing coming up that will start May 21st and go through June 4th um I have published that in the paper like required to um and then absentee or early voting will start June 28th and go through August 12th um and then only other update I have is staff is currently looking for a new website provider so we're meeting with different different um providers hopefully we can get something that's more user friendly and um easier for residents to use as well are we ever I know a lot of cities use kind of a standardized URL are we going to do that also so that is um going to be required for all governments to go because you're talking about getting away from the.com and going to like a yeah well and yeah yep so um so the provider that we use yes it will be more of a standard template where you don't have to know how to code to be able to update the website so we're going to get away from that and then um yes we will be switching over we've requested the domain to be able to go to the um doov okay so that will be a change coming as well Marty evening mayor and Council just a few items uh update on the Wellhead treatment plan um all the uh slab um rebar plumbing and electrical stuff has been installed um the operating slab has been pulled is curing this week um they'll be removing some of the Shoring system and getting ready to uh test the Basin for any leaks um that'll be in the next week or so um hydr FL is nearly complete we just got the Champlain area to do uh the Water Trails project I've had a meeting with DNR regarding in uh the well sorry I've got a meeting scheduled with DNR for May regarding the joint project at the historic village Landing uh they have approved it to go to the next stage so might be some planning to go with that uh met with a DNR hydrologist uh last week to go over the U existing proposals for LC Stevens um he had a couple of concerns but it's generally supportive of the project so there a couple of things that we can work our way through um I'm working with the national parks ofice to get the $100,000 released to us for the project uh ball fields are being used now uh for game uh games and practice um this year we're using mcneel Dayton Elementary riversbend Park and Diamond Lake diamonds we haven't used the last two for a number of years here so um they're getting some some use this year our roads we're doing crack ceiling um street sweeping was completed today and a couple of tree trimming projects have uh have been going on just to test out the the new book boom truck that we took delivery of last week um just a general thing um with the the part-time and seasonal opportunities um I've got two seasonal uh interviews this week and the two part-time uh applicants have been invited to interview but I haven't got a response from them yet okay good evening mayor members of council and uh the next council meeting May 14th um I will not be in attendance uh myself and the truck committee for the engine tender will be uh traveling to pack our Motors um as to investigate um if that motor will be better than our cummin Motors that we've have in our engines and that was uh provided um with the purchase of our truck so we'll be uh going there to uh ensure that that motor will be a good fit for our needs moving forward evening mayor and councel um the two officers has their first week in full uniform riding along with their fto um so so far they've been doing good and meeting our expectations and even exceeding some of them so that's a good sign um just busy catching up um from being at the conference last week and uh we'll get the speed limit signs out here shortly so if you get any complaints or here of anywhere that you need them shoot me any these new sign or what what's up with the speed limit signs the what the radar signs the radar sign oh those yep all right yep John Thursday May 2nd is a council plan commission Workshop to discuss the Dayton Parkway master plan so that'll start at 5: we will provide dinner everyone oh that's at the Planning Commission yes okay that it yep no updates here not for me nothing I'm good good nothing for me nothing for me all right this baby alone all right new business item F chip and fog seal project there we go give me a mayor and councel um being a a new treatment or a new project in the city I was just going to take a minute to explain what this project entails um just so there's some Awareness on uh on what's actually involved with it so Dayton's pavement management plan recently adopted identifies crack repair chip seal and fog seal as an improvement strategy to maintain the road Network throughout the city um crack repair um folks may or may not know this um it's as simple as cleaning out the existing cracks and then um inserting you know the liquid asphalt material just to to seal the cracks such that water can't enter get in the subsurface and cause some problems under the roadway um I'll continue to say it's the the cheapest Assurance you can to have um extend the life of your roadway um chip seal is again a liquid asphalt basically an oil that's sprayed on the surface um followed by a truck that puts small diameter rock on it that's angular and that bonds to the oil it sticks to the surface and that helps seal the surface keep it safe from elements from the the sun creating the pavement to be brittle and again letting water enter the surface it just um seals it while also adding skid resistance which is shown to be a safety benefit as well um a fog seal and that's what's new to the city um that's um I kind of think of it as the lacquer that goes over the top it's just another layer that goes over the surface it bonds those rocks in place so when tires are moving on them plow trucks going over them um those rocks aren't breaking loose and you're losing them so it kind of holds everything in place better and and really helps U keep the performance of that Improvement going for an extended period of time so um this year there was ident there was 3.9 miles um identified to receive this treatment um segments from future years are being considered uh to be added to this one and that's primarily due because the project we've implemented per the payment management plan have come in significantly under budget so to help kind of spread the costs over that that uh time frame of the fiveyear plan in the budget or in the plan fiveyear U spread cost over the fiveyear pavement management plan um the thought was to bring some of those forward now there it's an easy design project we can implement it pretty quickly um it's a short duration for construction so those were the easy ones to pull forward if you will to to do this year so we sat down with staff and looked at those identified for both this year as well as the remaining four years of the plan we pulled the ones forward that were best grouped together or made sense and we basically looked at U which areas was the entire neighborhood going to be done anyway let's do them all this coming year and then also let's stick to kind of the main roads if you will the collectors that that might best benefit from this so that being said and I didn't write down the mileage of of Road involved but the the project cost estimate is about $774 ,000 for for this year um here's just a list of what's included in it and depicted on the right in blue um are the the segments that are proposed to be included um in this project so just to note the 774 will still remain under the expected expenditure for 2024 so just just to note we're not spending more than would have been previously anticipated Jason do we recall the 152 project that's happening this year also that y yeah hill thiet Hills also yeah do we know how many feet of actual roadway is getting re redone on those two yeah and I could ask this um it's got to be close to three qus of mon think yeah I um I would guess prob probably a half half miles to 2/3 of a mile I'd have to measure them um my my concern is I just don't I don't have a whole lot of faith in chip seal personally but no I know I know we haven't done the fog seal in past mhm is there any of that out there that we can look at um yeah it won't look any different because it's basically a just a a clear over the top surface um I know we've done a ton of these in the city of New Hope so New Hope does this annually throughout the entire city so they're broken into quadrants and then they have a state a year so they go on a five to sevene cycle on their on their um chip seal and F seal the biggest thing with the with the chip seal thing to me is is whatever crack is there this year is going to be right back there next year yeah it's not intended to get rid of track to cracks the the seal or the crack repair oh and I I failed to mention the crack repair is actually done in house so Public Works do that work so I was going to mention that um yeah it's not a structural Improvement it doesn't give any additional strength it is preserving the Life by keeping the water out which is a big enemy especially in the winter time and then also just from the elements the the sun and the weathering of the surface can kind of take the oil out if you will and creates kind of a brittle surface how much of that is crack seil how much of of that cost um this this just chip and fog this is just chip and fog so this came up probably about 70 years ago and I dug and dug and dug and I could not find a single Paper there was a lot of controversy about whether it works or not but I cannot find a single study that said yes this definitively works um so the men. seal quot manual will will have the evidence of it and the the backing for it um okay the The Fog seal again um it's been experience-based I know like Cottage Grove does it a ton too um so it it has been successful in other communities okay um there there is a I mean over my career I've probably seen it rotate through two to three times where they people will be anti-al coat for a period of time because um they'll be with the ulion process and the underlying pavement there will be some stripping that occurs or different different issues now that changes over time because they'll they'll morph their oils or or oil types I'm just wondering for that much cost for well wait you said the 3.9 is it doesn't include the additional R you you're talking about the 3.9 was what was supposed to be and I I apologize I I meant to put the actual mileage in here and I I didn't do that um it's significantly more okay we pulled a lot of the future years I just did some math if we look at the uh Mill and overlay that we're doing in Thicket Hills and2nd that's $45 a foot roughly this chip and fog seal is $37 a foot no no it's signicant 3.9 miles correct 3.9 miles is not the total project that's not the seven it just it says 3.9 miles yeah that was originally proposed for 2024 we pulled and I apologize I didn't write the I didn't so the 3.9 was what was supposed to happen and then we grabbed a whole bunch of future projects and pulled them back and that's the 700 and and you don't know how many miles that is I I I didn't I'm trying to find it here as we speak so keep keep talking find I don't know is it in the it might be in the staff report and were the roads that were pulled in or well any of them they were based on the condition the road condition study that we yeah and and again it's not really a structural Improvement so it's a preservation strategy um so it's a to extend the life it doesn't really give um the structural benefit of it but so they're they actually typically go on newer roads you're trying to keep the water out of the cracks is what you're trying to do out of the surface entirely yeah yep yeah cuz I I was kind of surprised to see Pioneer Trail already right on there yeah not only that with Pioneer you've semis go down there every single day you told us one semi with 117,000 cars or something crazy like that equivalent as far as the stress to the stress to the road yeah and so we're going to do it and then we're going to run a bunch of semis up and down that road same with River Hills go ahead sorry yeah I agree no well yeah that one surprised me and then that this is probably a dumb question but when um when you're doing that stretch of Deerwood that we just painted the line on we're going to paint that line back on there yep yeah so it's an initial 4 point roughly 4.5 miles that's what this would be um 3.9 plus 4.5 would be the total so what 8.4 yeah total total miles for the do okay did you do the rest of the math for me no well it's I let you I give you the number you do the math on that part going to cut it about half so the these are unit and it's in the pavement management plan they're unit prices and they're listed in there and the unit prices are significantly less for this than a mill so what it's roughly 20 bucks then roughly well maybe 18 something like that 17 18 so Zanzibar we just put that road together not long L either that the sou par yep and so we're going to so the north part the north part will be about years ago the north po oh that was what Public Work the year after two years after Public Works M yeah 2018 18 we did it 2018 so five years ago mhm again it's a it's a preservation it's not a restoration I know I'm just trying to figure out if this if the amount of preservation really saves us I mean I don't know I don't see a lot of value in it just seems like it almost seems like it's I I almost need to see more MTH M used to not do the chip seals I mean they they yeah and they're they're harder on the bigger collectors a lot of counties go back and forth on it too because it's um it's it's typically more effective on the local roads than it is the major collectors not always I mean it's it's it's effective there as well but I'm personally more more up to go with the uh Mill and over L and and just bite the bullet and we could do that I mean this was an added strategy when the pavement management plan was put together it was agreed upon that this would be a good treatment to include in it because of the lower cost than the the other ones and just extending the pavement life um I mean certainly that could be rerun eliminating this and and say we're only doing crack crack repair and just wait until Mill and overlay I mean that's that's absolutely an option well it' be nice to see what we think this saves us for the lifetime because if you take that Lifetime and advertise it back doesn't seem like it would make it but I don't know the question is does it add a 50% life to it is it add one year right that's kind of the that's what you're kind of asking right which I think how much time do you buy yeah fair question um crack seal to me is a no-brainer but that because that CRA repair and my buying should be done every year and every every year every year well that's why we bought the the equipment because what do you think David I I'm not gonna I guess I don't doubt that it that it extends to life I think that's a a fair question to say by how much you know and so does it does it pay back for us do we get enough life out of it to make it worth doing um I'm not a civil engineer I can't make that judgment I guess we've committed to improving our roads and this is this is what we need to be doing to to do that um you know I'm on board I think that that we uh need to move on that plan we put together essentially A Five-Year Plan to get us up to a certain score on uh on conditions um not clear to me how this exactly plays into that or if it you know do we for examp the roads that that you're going to chip seal are do that uh does that improve their score does it improve our overall score um it should um it's a small I mean it's predictive software that that does um run on the Improvement it it bumps it up some um certainly less than a millon overlay for example I mean that will that will bump it up I'm kind of making these up but that might be like a 45 Point increase on a 100 point scale to do a Mill and overlay for example where this is going to be something much less than that so it basically the the how significant the treatment is how much life you buy more a Mill and overlay should give us 10 years on that road not um yeah I think Mill and overlays are generally just on a straight degradation curve about seven years of life so I mean a pavement structure it's a 20-year design just always um you design for 20 years and then there's certain degradations and certain improvements that bump up your curve as it deteriorates and generally speaking if you do the mill and over the seal coats the crack repair the seal coats the mill and overlays um and then potentially a full depth Reclamation for certain um things you'll get a 59e life I mean that's that's kind of the flat curve or or standard curve if you will for the life so this is one of those components to get you that distance if you were to forgo this and just go to a Mill and overlay you might still get like 55 years of life you might get 50 you might get 45 it depends on how much water is getting in your subsurface and creating damage or or you know how many of the elements if you have Boulevard trees for example your payment will last longer it's because it's shaded so I mean there's just a lot of components to it well is an example and Zanzibar for instance was just done five years ago uh if we take care of the cracks on that for the next 5 years I cannot see personally that that is going to be any worse than to me the the the chip seal and fog seal I don't know why I word it I don't see the value in the 5 years because it's not going to last for 5 years for sure so to me if you take care of it for another 5 years and then just go back and U and Mill and overlay it I see that to me the value is is in the mill and overlay that's my personal opinion true what benefit did the chips add to the uh chip sealing process traction um it just it helps Bond the surface so it's not as much friction between the the oil the underlying oil is what SEALs it m and then the Rocks just keep separation of the contact contact with wheels and others to wear that off the surface so it just extends the life of it if you will and then the ceiling over the top is what keeps the rocks from knocking loose and and creating it so it's it's kind of a bar barrier there there's other Alternatives that we discuss with Public Works and and U for example you can do a slurry seal or or I mean there's there's other treatments and we ruled most of them out um just being that this one was seem more cost effective and and um little more tried andr if you will Mary do you coming from the subject matter expert about our roads do you feel like this is a cost effective option or would you just stick with seal coating like Scott's stating I I like the the chip Sal and F uh the chips and fog seal I think it does a lot for us um keeping the rocks on the road is um huge in a lot of ways because we get a lot of complaints when we've just done the the chip seal before and people complain about them going up in their driveways I think if we can keep them on the road it's great um and it will also you know with the plowing it's going to keep those in place and we're not going to get caught underneath them and peel it up um I like this product U because there's you know several places using it who seem to you know have had good luck with it and I think it's something that if it's adding life to the the road further down the line I think it's a good preventative measure along with the crack seiling that we're doing thank you so I know we know that the plows are going to do some level of damage and the sealant is supposed to help keep them glued down a little bit better the fog seal how do these things stand up to the sweepers oh yeah it won't be sweeper w't heard it at all yeah another with the seal coat and and the F seal helps with this as well is high temperatures that underlying oil will start to soften again um we' get that a lot um communities I worked at where we've done a lot of these um where there's a lot of car parking like parallel parking or other where they're cranking the wheels on it will on warm days it'll actually move the rock around and this this greatly helps with that I don't know if that specific issue um exists many places in dayon but um it was a big one there like they'd have the city festival and everybody was pulling in and out along the curb lines through neighborhoods and there was 4 in weekend they're doing that or something like that yeah sure so I think I'm really torn on this one I uh when we have the plan the we have the plan cuz it's supposed to work I want to follow the plan cuz it's supposed to to work um I prefer a Mill and Overlay Road over the chip seal just for the Driving Experience personally and think it's a nicer way to do it um so I don't know I I was hoping you'd say oh there's a study that says this this this and this and you could point us to to help with that decision making a little bit more um so I don't know I can I can research that I mean I know there's a lot of data out there men do like I said they do Publications a lot of studies on on these continuously if we table this for two weeks is it going to throw off getting it done this year or not um no I don't think so um so another part of this is the it's a pretty temperature specific specific requirements for the application so that's why this is easier to implement because we really can't even do the project for some time and to be honest the the design process on these is is pretty straightforward it's pretty simple um it's basically showing the roads that that you want done there's not really anything design work other than the the material specifications and others so so there's no engineering cost they're very low on this Fally just point to a map won just point to a map that's $10,000 you pointed the map you mean this one's not 38% uh we're we're a little under that I think so I like the idea of tbling it for two weeks yeah okay yeah I'll motion that we table it for two weeks just to allow your time to send us and please don't wait the full two weeks as soon as you find it send us whatever the data that you have on it that'd be great so we have time to read it review it and then ask questions before then I think that'd be really for me that'd be really helpful in making a decision because I want to stick to the science and not you know Matt's gut because Matt's gut is not a civil engineer so i' I'd rather stick to the science and if you can point us in the direction of the science I think that it makes sense you can all go to New Hope and take a look if you guys want to want a tour I can probably arrange one I mean if if you want to go out and meet with the director or anybody out there I'm going to go whether anybody else does okay I mean they can show you like different years even oh they can yeah we do them very routinely out there I used to work there so we've been doing them since the 90s but no I haven't been there that long well I guess I I have no doubt that it improves the appearance of the road and and some of it probably makes sense I I guess my question is is the extra stuff that it buys is that worth you know is that worth it to to get an extra one five 10 years out of it I don't know that's the question how many more years are we expected to get out of the roads for this price seems like and like like I said I mean on the straight degradation curve it'll show that I want I'm I'm only guessing when I say it I want to say it's it's it's not a lot it's like three years or or something years 20 um three years basically stacked on top of that so again but that's a normalized curve for every situation which none of them are true yeah but that's okay yeah but it's I mean it's the best INF you would guess yeah you're judgment would say it make a 20- year Road or 23 year road yeah it it would buy you time with it might might be more um okay I'd be surprised if it were any less but it's a 15% increase in the RO the water is the biggest enemy so I see that's why yeah yeah well it would be good to see something that kind of leay it out okay need a second second all those in favor of tbling this for two weeks say I I oppos say no motion carries on to G discussion on ballot question yeah good evening mayor members of council um we wanted to have discussion on ballot question we have Amy Schmidt here was able to Prov us information on the ballot questions what we needed to have that was provided in the packet um again we're here for just taking notes and taking information down if you any questions I'm going to give it off to Amy Schmidt our attorney who's going to be able to help us hopefully with the questions and stuff and then Amy benting here who's the election guro so it's the Amy show Amy show that's right um you know I don't have a formal presentation prepared um but I'm here to answer your questions I understand from Zach and Amy that there are a couple three maybe four different topics that you all are considering ballot questions for um in the packet from in the agenda packet there's a list that is um not exhaustive but kind of relevant to what you know the city would do some of the things that are in the statutory list related to ballot questions apply to cities of the first class like Minneapolis and St Paul so I didn't didn't throw those in there because why bother um and so the list here is you know it's it's really um meant to just sort of give a an idea of what you can and can't and must put a ballot question on for a special election so I'm just here to answer any questions that you might have um I'm trying to remember what the questions one of them was Parkland so part of them y so one of them was related to park parks in larger Park complex um one of them was related to 25 mph speed limit in residential areas one of them was related to to um Detachment from form of government which was um proposed by myself or looked at for myself and then the other one was Detachment from Detachment from henen County that's correct so those are the four questions um at least that I can remember provided over to Amy to get some information back from so the questions on there have to drive some sort of action it looks like we can't use it as a survey of some kind it needs to really like we can't say what are your thoughts on XYZ it has to be do you vote in favor of doing this or not basically comes out to essentially yes um but even at that it's it's it's limited it's a it's a limited tool that that you have um you know the action um like your description of it's not a survey is is really the best way to describe it um it's you can't just put it on put a question on just to take the temperature of of residents I mean it would be um it would be kind of a an easy way to do that um but it's still it's the statutes are pretty clear about um the limitations on that you know if you put a question on about um the about on the parks question um basically the only way that that that I find that you could um present that to the voters is in the context of do you essentially do you approve of the city issuing General obligation debt to fund Parks which is kind of putting the cart for the horse in effect because as as I understand it you all haven't made decisions about what you might want to use the city resources on and whether you would issue debt or want to in that context so you know there and and there are a couple of um negative outcomes that could happen if you were to put that kind of question on the ballot Just to sort of take a temperature um it's a valid question but I mean if if you are only trying to figure out if people are in favor of it or not um if it fails because people see it at might read it as I don't want to pay more taxes um you don't really get their true feelings about what the what the money would be spent on in a way you know it's it's it's an action like you say and and how they want and I and I I get the impression that you all want to know their feelings about things so it's a kind of a different separ responsibility thing so spe specifically for the parks we will hear all over the place that you know people want Parks except some of us also believe that people don't necessarily want more parks and to me the best measure of that is to put it to a vote um and so if now I know I I thought those were non-binding also for for issuing debt that's it I mean the question itself my understanding was it is not a binding a referendum is not necessarily B binding on my understanding was for City count cities that it was not necessarily binding petitions aren't binding okay um you know but if you were to issue a referendum question um whether about whether voters want you to issue debt for for the purpose of of parks um you can you don't I mean if it passes and then ultim the decision is made not to issue debt that's one thing but if if the if it passes or fails for that matter if it passes it it kind of ties your hands as to what you can use the money for because it's generally a a referendum question on issuing debt is about a specific plan it's not it's it's it's narrower than just the general question of do you want more Parks or not yes or no I certainly wouldn't go and put a the question on there to add do you want to play for a does the public want to pay for a uh sports complex and if they say yes we wouldn't go and buy a ladder truck no I I think what she's saying is we need to build let's say for the sports complex or the city park whatever you want to call it baseball diamonds whatever yeah we design the whole thing post the plan and then we'd say do you want us to execute this plan it's going to cost you X month x amount in taxes we it's too vague to say do you want a sports complex cuz like well yeah but what you see a sports complex what I seees a sports complex what Amy sees a sports complex could all be different things altogether and so we if we want to do that we'd have to develop a plan that we were going to execute against and ask people basically are you okay executing against this knowing it's going to cost you 200 bucks more a year whatever the price is right and and and and and all that's right and in addition to that you know when you put a question on a ballot it has to be in a specific form you know do you approve of fill in the blank and you know and on a like a school referendum question or something like that it always has to end with and answer answering yes to this question means you'll have a tax increase you know so you need to it needs the language has to be very specific as to what you are asking the public for I mean my problem with you just said was so to me you you you do want them to get all the information so it isn't really to me it's not really a measure of what they feel it's a measure of what they value right but that's what she's saying you a valid question to get that right I think what I'm what I'm trying to convey is that you know I mean a referendum question about issuing debt is really is the only legal mechanism that I find in the statutes that allows a city to ask about parks and it's a far stretch from where I think you all are as I understand the situation of what you're trying to to to learn from people of you know do you do you value your tax dollars going to a sports complex I think is is that more what you're trying to to learn as far as that question goes I think that's why we would do it yeah we would say you know here's here's what we're looking at and here's the up to amount in a bond so I I think I don't think that a a a bond referendum question could be framed around that scenario I think it does need to be tied to a more specific plan a more spec it needs to be project kind of narrowly tailored to answer you know a specific question of what the debt would be applied to what you would be getting for your debt so you can't say here's an idea that we have going going back and forth do we want would you support a $30 million and then do the math and figure out what that is it's going to cost you this much more for the next 20 years yeah rather than rather than I have a hard time sending money to an architect or an engineer without even knowing if we're going to do the project so I me I don't want to do a full full-fledged plan there are ways right there are ways to to take to you know as I say take the temperature to kind of get the the feeling from residents um of of what they what they value what they want you to spend the city resources on um you know I think it would be you you can do a community survey you can do open houses where people come and and talk about you know the capital Improvement plan or things like that where you it where you have the chance to gather that input I mean because with a referendum question of just about any topic you kind of run the risk of um um you don't necessarily see the full uh feeling or what you know expression of the values of the people because you know you may have a faction that does a really huge get out the vote vote no or vote Yes and you know so it it's not you have the same thing in public meetings too where you have the people that are absolute on one side or the other they exactly exactly and to me yeah there's there's no perfect scientific way to to to get that um but a ballot question um they just it's just a really the this the legislature just really clamps down on what you can use the ballot for so the speed limit question we could ask though I don't know about that change this book because that would be an adoption of special laws laws passed by the uh so basically saying implementing a 25 M hour speed limit in residential areas a special law is a is is a special law that's adopted that is approved by the legis first and and and like like you would go and ask the sales tax exactly you would go and ask the legislature to do this just for Dayton it'll only apply to Dayton they do their thing they adopt it and then you all accept it that's what I mean by special that input on that thank you go ahead Paul I was just going to say legislation has already been slated that we can lower our speed limits in residential zones to 25 M hour per City but it has to go through an engineering study and then it has to be posted beginning and end of every street that um you put the mileage on all right so John you want to say something yes uh just on the The Parks referendum so Zach and I did talk to um Apple Valley's um Park and wck director so Apple Valley had passed um I think it was a $73 million Bond a referendum for a bond last year um and so Apple Valley did two surveys the first survey was you what do residents want for parks and trails and the second survey was here's what we heard here's kind of our list of things do you agree with this list or not and then based on that list you had plans and cost estimates that led to the referendum and so the way the referendum reads is you once again this is Apple Valley uh shall the city of Apple Valley be authorized to issue its General obligation bonds and amount not to exceed there's two questions here so the first is 66.7 million to provide funds for the Improvement of the city's Parks system and Facilities improvements to existing recreational trails and construction of new recreational trails and the preservation of Natural Resources improvements to the Apple Valley Community Center uh senior and event center and the Apple Valley Family Aquatic Center the hay Arena and the construction of a youth baseball and softball complex so like eight different projects or nine different projects they got going for with a very specific amount so it's if you vote for this you're approving bonds yes okay if that that question right there did not say it's going to cost you this much money it just gave 66 point something and it's set up to correct so yeah which means you assume that divide it by you know the the prop proper owners right right yeah yeah so every individual's got to know how many homes are in the city or oh yeah I would never yeah to me if a question goes on it's going to have a median house it's going to have a per median house yeah cost otherwise it's a meaningless number didn't they spend two and a half years doing research before they put that on there too yes yeah yeah I get the the idea that you know we're not taking a temperature here with these asks that we got to be it's go or no go and this is the list of stuff we're going to do if it's a go yeah right and I think I think that like like I said before is I think that is beyond where I think your your process has and your discussions have gone just yet I think it's premature that you would issue a question like that so just to confuse us a bit more um there was a question around um seceding from henen County you know that doesn't seem to have as much energy as it did six months ago but um I know that it's you know sort of a mount ever is climb to get a uh a petition in all of the Cities affected and counties and so on that to to actually put that as a ballot question yes or no are we doing this what I had thought about you know and trying to ask was you know where are the residents of Dayton on this thing you would they be in favor of us moving this forward but what I'm I think I'm hearing from you is we can't ask that kind of question I I don't think it's I think it would be premature to ask that at this point um there's a I I know that when the issue came up initially there was a memo that was issued by that was in your packet that was written um for the Champlain um city council and it you know in their attorney laid out and I like I think I remember telling you I don't really have much to add to that it was very thorough you know there's a very specific process that has to happen um there are a couple of options for how it could happen but I mean it's a very specific statutory process and none of them begin with with kind of a do you want to do this question yeah and that's that's unfortunate I think because if our own residents aren't in favor of it then why would we ever pursue it right and I think that's why one of the processes that would bring It Forward would be a petition from you know from residents and and that would be a petition that would be binding um that could or could be binding could compel an action um that the council would have to you know consider it or accept it or you know it's so it that petition would be the expression of whether people just you know the the city you know residents at large support it or not so we can take that one off the list okay one take them all off the list at this point in time they all sound like they need more work yeah sounds like we can just we need to use a surveying function if we want to get better feel for what people think I don't think you get a real good feel though to me you're going to get 35 people that'll I mean it's just a it's not a good response deal to where the the ballot deal everybody's looking at that just about everybody votes I mean they're looking at that ballot and saying here it is now you see how many residents we have or how many people voted last don't know if everyone votes presal primary we can at that turnout but we're typically in the 80 to 85% turnout rate for voters you're going to get a much bigger opinion on that ballot than you are Survey Monkey for sure but statistically you don't need to talk to everyone to get an idea of where things are at is it's not skewed correct yes if you have an open house you skewed it well I'm thinking like CU Champlin just did a survey of things too where they had they paid a party to go out and call a bunch of homes sure to make sure it wasn't un like they this Council I think approved the questions and then they went out and asked the questions and then they got the results back so I think there's ways that aren't an open house too that are ways to get there might be a pulse that aren't yep but I'm guessing that there that was also skewed because you have a lot of people who when they hear survey click and T tend to be the same type of people so now you just skewed so do you have a do you have a recommendation of ways to do it without no I don't that's in that's where yeah I mean this everybody looks at and says yeah or no they make a decision so correct yeah I mean that's what staff would like to see is some sort of you know direction of you know what's the best way to do it I don't know yeah I think there's also the option of a combination of of of Engagement you could do the open house and you can do a survey and you know the professional groups that do those surveys for cities and you know on specific questions or just your kind of every other year Community survey kind of how where they do a laundry list of you know how's the city doing kind of questions um you know they account for that Hang-Ups and you know because it's it's a randomized selection they don't send it to everyone um in the city so it's there's the methodology at least attempts to account for that skewing so that you do get you know reasonably reliable data yeah we could certainly talk to Champlin and see how well they think the same company was used by Champlain Apple Valley Cottage Grove use the same person they use the same process in the previous City that I worked in we use the same company so it it's scientific so what they'll do is they make it they'll call a resident and then make an appointment to talk to them for a longer period of time to conduct the survey you know so so if they say know sorry I'm not interested in um the company knows what the demographic is of that person and so they go to the next person that fits the same demographic um so it's very evenly it's intended to be very evenly distributed you know male female you know different age cohorts different locations in the city I couldn't tell you how they get all this information because we don't don't have that but it it's intended to be as fair and equal as possible look at I think we we should because the if we can't do them as ballot questions the questions don't go away yeah okay do we need a motion on anything get some quotes and what it's in the C to do it and then come back to us and M okay I know it's not what you wanted to he but that's my job lawers I know BL lawers that's what I'm here for item H Gage size and so I'll I'll preference this as this might I think of has be more probably one of the more fun conversations because there's no right or wrong answer or I should say there's no wrong answer it's only whatever you guys come up with is the right one so um the I'm going to say the the premise here is not necessarily that garages are too small in the Ordnance is that what's being built is too small so uh the city code requires a minimum of 440 Square ft so that's roughly I believe it's 20 by 22 um is I'm sure the council is aware most garages that are being built are three car garages so they're larger than 440 ft the issue that I think a lot of residents have is I theoretically once you fit three cars in there there's not a lot of space for garbage cans lawnmowers snowblowers bicycles and all the other storage items that you would expect to find in the garage uh which means if you have a third vehicle that Third vehicle ends up in the driveway uh so just the general idea of of what I'm looking or trying to get some feedback from the council is should I'm going to say should there be a minimum garage stall size so not necessarily garage size um this was discussed by the Planning Commission in April uh the commission had extensive discussion and decided that it would did not need to be changed um thiss year is that people have too much stuff so it's not necessarily the to me to me this is just to me this is a government waste of time really I mean why are we telling somebody hey it's up to the individual that's buying the house to to build the garage however he wants in my opin I so I don't I somewhat agree that it's up to the individual to build the house but the Builder doesn't always give you a choice and so I've got so I'll give you an example I'm I brought this city a year ago and said we should do something I've got neighbors that weren't given a choice on a three-car garage on their lot they were a twocc car garage and you find another Builder but okay in the price point they were looking at and where they wanted to live it didn't matter it's different build or not this is what they had an option to okay they we live in an HOA you're not allowed to keep your garbage can and recycling can out front even if it's screened it has to be in your garage you're limited on your shed size if you're allowed a shed because we allow HOAs that then limit these things so now you've got people that can't they have to put their snowboard in their their lawnmower somewhere so two car garage they're down to one car and two car G so indirectly all you're saying is that all you're saying is that the builder needs to allow you to Big build a bigger garage yeah so my point was more or less is we should have a garage that is deep enough to fit a pickup truck and should be a two and a half car minimum that was my piece that way raise the price of home garage space some of the cheapest space you're going to put in a home like the price thing I heard that at the the Planning Commission too garage bace on the cheapest space you're going to put in a home and I think I mean the homes next to us are building four car garages right up the street from us so it's not all homes it's a limited selection of homes but then these people have a choice of well I park in the driveway and then people come from out of the city and they jump out of their cars and they try to see if you locked your car door and that's a common thing doesn't just happen here it happens in all cities just to be clear it happened in the neighborhood lived in Rapids and my neighbor's car got broken into and then because they keep the garage open in their car they got in the garage and thankfully there they were detached garages people weren't getting in the homes so there's a there's a a benefit to the city to have enough room to get two cars in a garage especially in a city where the average home has 2.3 people mean on average is about two cars so a lot of people buy three cars because they have two cars and they want space yep that's what we did you got a three car garage yes so I I okay but you but not all all homes have an option for a three car garage and you say well adding the garage going to add space the homes that have a room for a three-c car garage are usually larger home so you're paying more for the physical home because it's larger plus you a three stall garage so my point was having a two and a half stall garage solves a lot of problems so what about these homes that have one stall you going to mandate two and a half for them which home what do you mean home is that one so well I I mean let's say some Builder came in and said and and for some reason let's say was a uh on a single family hes I'm talking not yeah well are you just talking about just a class of home then or single family just single family it has to be at least two and a half yeah I've got no appetite for that I'm not I'm not dictating how how big a garage somebody's going to have I mean that's that's up to an individual that's buying the house would it be more advantageous for us to like go after the storage with the HOA and say like hey you can't tell somebody no for a shed provided they have enough room would that I mean do we have governance to over step an HOA and in in a capacity like that I think we do but you know HOAs can adopt whatever rules they they want but they enforce those not not the city I I just can't I can't really get I mean I I understand that the garages that tend to get built as sort of the standard issue thing are too small you know unless you've got a couple of little cars or or one and you people have that choice when they when they buy the house I I understand they're saying Matt that the builders will dictate you know this this bottle of home this is what you get there's where the bedrooms are you know all that you know if it I mean if it was me it's you know I got stuff I got to put stuff somewhere so if somebody says I get a 20 by21 garage I'm going to keep walking it's not going to work for me and so us dictating that size seems unnecessary to me people need to manage their stuff and you know if you need more space then then you then you shouldn't have bought that house but but you know what to Matt's point though I will grant you that it's not a free market the the builders do dictate pretty much everything I don't think it'd be as big of an issue if we didn't if a lot of I'm going to say almost every new development that goes in has an H not all of them but almost all of them do yeah and they don't allow outside storage I've not seen one Maybe I'm Wrong I Don't Know P J but allow outside storage of garbage and recycling and those kind of things like you have to put that somewhere so we're by allowing the city allowing the HOA to go in in the first place as part of the building condition and then the HOA not allowing the recycling of garbage to go outside you're already what do you mean allowing well we we can tell them no HOAs right I don't how would we do that when they build the development so U mayor Cil so part of the development or part of the plating process they would ask to have a h ho OA in that development we could tell them you can't have an HOA in that development why why so so I know we do that I wonder why why would we well here's the other deal let's say they don't say anything about that and six months later they vote to have an HOA I mean I don't understand how we have a saying that at all yeah so we would have it as part of the da we could say that no HOA is allowed in this development however if we don't say anything then there's no yes or no it's just but even if even if we did say that six months down the road it seems like that the owners all the people could vot vote I mean they it wouldn't be for a whole area it would be for for whatever homes decided to do that but it just seems like yeah I don't know how it would be in like I don't know how they would I I get your your question is that if we say no you can't and then all the homeowners want to say yes we want one how do we stop them part of or let's say they would challenge the da that was done with the original development they would challenge that or basically sue a as the da we we did somehow allow allow them to have an HOA and six months after that they voted to that that happens often and then that's then that's on us to they'll maintain all of those facilities yeah I don't know I feel for people who were in Ana but I'm not so I do want to provide a little background so we do currently Monitor and say you have to have 440 ft so we do have a minimum out there I mean um no Builder can come in currently and say they want to put a onecar garage in unless they're going to make that onear garage 20 some feet deep or something to make it 4 40 ft so um we do monitor that so I want to make sure everyone's clear on that and the second one is so I'll provide an example that I received from a complaint from is that somebody was building a home they didn't look at the size of the garage because they were worried about the kitchen and the dining room and all the other stuff then they moved into the house and then they realized that the hway doesn't allow them to have the garbage cans outside so they called us saying how do we fix this we can't do anything so I think that think we went to a or went to um we ended up having to get them a smaller recycling can so they could put it in front of their garage car to make them fit their car and the G and the in the garage with the recycling can that's just again that's one example and that was about a year a year and a half ago I received that I pled and they said that that's really dumb and what can I do to fix that I said there's nothing I can do MH so I you know there is the problem is that people don't pay attention to garage sides when they're building homes that's just true across all statements I've heard it more than once they don't pay attention to that because they're worried about the kitchen and the bedrooms and what is the paint color and what's the carpet going to look like and whatever else and the last thing to look at is the garage size if it has three stall garage no problem but if it's the ones that have two stall garages that we're looking at which would be like AC cross the street with um The Pines where it only is able to get a two stall garage in widthwise on the lot that it's there so we'd want to make sure and this is part of the I think that's this my point would be we want to make sure the square footage works not because we want to make it certain widthwise but so they can able to park two vehicles with something in there um and again I don't think it's a huge increase in 440 square feet at least from my perspective but it's enough to be able to put a snowblower or a lawn mower in front of your vehicle when you have a fullsize pickup um where you put the fulls sizee pickup with a crew cab and a short box in there it goes from the front all the way to the back of the garage and then you have to open the garage Road just to get into your car so this like said that's from personally what I've heard from residents as complaints and I personally don't see it as a width and length Ling but more like biggest square feet of okay if you can't go widthwise you need to go at least deep wise so we can fit something in there additional on top of your vehicle but that's from my perspective as City admin not as you know resident or Builder myself so we got we got some Builder input up here also if we want to hear it sure you want to speak to this you're more than welcome quite up yeah the other issue I want to make sure everyone he's not technically a builder right used to be not so um I think you know personally I I wouldn't disagree on garage size and maybe just on on depth but I think the idea of not having an HOA the reason to have an HOA I think in general um um is just to protect everybody's value so you don't have somebody leaving everything outside right now you got the guy with the junk in the neighborhood and now they're calling the city saying hey you know there is an ordinance but you know somebody comes by tells them to clean up next thing you know I think that's one of the reasons to put an HOA in just say your single family developments the other than the HOA not to have it if you have say the town homes in that where all the yards are main mained yeah he that and the problem is those are usually the ones with the smaller garage not not the regular single family home yeah how big a garage so the town homes we require double in those um so it's minimum 440 ft in the mum medium density that's correct but I would say it's true the the depth you know I mean that's 22 F feet right so unless you have a small car and you put your garbage cans in front you know then all of a sudden you know is it 480 and you go 24t and you get a truck in I mean that's that's a decision you know you could you could argue right usually we figure 50 bucks a square foot to build a garage so do the math you know it does add up people you know so that's why you see all these mini storage places going up everywhere where that you never didn't see them before um but but I do think the HOA is is is generally looked I think some cities really like to have them in all developments because it's a way they can the neighborhood police itself versus the city half and the police it yeah I just I hear more complaints about HOAs than than in general you know they if you don't have a Associated yard you know like we pick for instance Edgewater project or as I own Gardens here that doesn't have an HOA so and then I know we all know you but just for the record [Laughter] Tom Tom Dean 11261 from Brooklyn but so I I whatever you do on the garage I think you know for me I'm not moving in a house with a 22t deep garage right but I think the HOA is you know that or look at what what you do on an ordinance for the exterior of the home and and how much the city wants to Poli I think that's the the tradeoff and to be clear my point wasn't to get rid of H my point was more the HOAs that are in the cities almost all of them require that the garbage cycling go in the garage but there's no place to put the garbage cycling in the garage to park outside Y and and to me that seems I the garbage can seems pett but I guess some people look at them and see ugly my neighbor just got a $25 lean put on their home because they kept theirs behind their garage and they didn't get the notification cuz they don't check their mail regularly so it may sound Petty but the HOAs go after people for it like it's I get money spot behind would it be would be would it uh would it be bad idea behind I think the the idea of just not out right then they tip over they blow yeah um and and so um the be compost at a whole another level of issue when we have compost bins yeah you know I suppose you know they have outside Gardens and then the deal with the shed is you know most of the time there's a architectural committee so they allow shed you can you know it has to look certain so you just start putting up you know some plastic enclosure but it's also then you know the city's probably pleased a lot where somebody puts it in and now it's you know maybe on a drainage utility M and and so I think just when they come in big it just makes it simple to help control some of those those issues thank you any other questions or Direction basically this this is discussion for direction that we need as staff for if we want to amend any of the code for minimum grage if we don't then that's easy Direction and we move forward we do not have an ordinance written so this is we're looking for direction from the council if to pursue this or not well basically you already got an ordinance if you have a minimum grage sign Gage size that's your ordinance C currently we have the ordinance set for certain districts R1 R3 and RM um but we do not have them in all districts and we don't again you know essentially we' have 440 sare feet as the minimum that's correct yeah I don't personally I don't see any reason to so so right now if we have somebody that wants to build a home um and hires a builder they have to by law put in a two stall yes yes at minimum at a minimum min y could they come in and ask for an exception VAR yeah uh through variant and there's no yeah and you have to show some sort of hardship or type of lot configuration that doesn't allow you to do it wide enough to put two cars essentially you have to make it two CS deep and then that may look really funny having it maybe it doesn't I don't know Park yeah no I'm not sorry in those certain districts not you know not in all districts but yeah so I'll make a motion that we don't increase the minimum garage size in our code our yeah we don't need any motion just Direction y I'll give direction don't feel we need to um mandate a larger garage size yeah that would be mine to okay I'll yeah perfect how do you talk about know where I stand I would increase it a little bit but that's me okay I'm not saying a lot but I would increase a littleit well you know the other question about that is is I don't know what that I mean I got to believe that somebody settled on 440 ft for a reason and that's probably because a lot of houses are built that way or probably I would guess so now you're going to you're going to throw a monkey wrench into you know 20 30 50 80% of plans out I think at one time the standard was 22 ft deep in homes I don't think this code has been amended this part of the code has been amended for many years like right but where do most houses come out at most of them are now probably 20 I don't know time 24 probably to 22 a lot West than that that's where it's really squeez into that 20 ft I mean I and it could be you know lot of change but that's where i' see if you would see everybody going I shouldn't say majority would go deeper yeah okay so I do think a lot of communities have 440s kind of been a standard I I can tell you that they're all change but it's that width is is really drunk down and there might be some Builders shrink into 18 and going deeper just because a lot with look at a lot of three stalls that third stall is you know 9 ft 8ot door you know you're you're not driving Tru it's just to store the extra stuff sure yeah so Tom just make sure we had it for the record because you wer at the mic which is good is that the width of the Lots or what's constricting the yeah um size of the garages and not more or less what the Builder wants but they could I mean if they could make it deeper if the demand was there I would think they would want to they could make it deeper but um it sounds like 440 was pretty standard for most communities that's why it was used okay to further this discussion along I'm also the same way on the apron and that the apron doesn't solve the issue well let's get to the apron go ahead this doesn't show up very well on the screen so uh the second part of this discussion is should city code be amended to require concrete aprons and so just for anyone that doesn't understand an apron is um I'll say the space between an asphalt driveway and a garage so typically when a home is constructed um you know the ground is excavated for footings and then the footings are poured and then it's back filled over time that back fill sinks a little bit and then it causes your driveway to sink so um for those residents that have asphalt driveways it's that asphalt that's going to sink and then you have kind of a a a dip between um while you're entering the garage so uh in discussion with the Planning Commission this one around quite a bit uh the plan commission did recommend requiring aprons um reason being that it it's better than not having one so um similarly is the problem is caused by the lack of compacting soil during the construction process um staff wise were not able to enforce that just physically we'd have to to be there all during construction we can't do that so um you know I'm going to speak for Jason a little bit um even if we re put in these concrete aprons that not necessarily or put in the aprons at the time of construction there's no guarantee that that's not going to sink itself right so ground is still going to settle over time yeah so I have a question on that I mean why if it's if you're putting in the concrete apron why isn't it why isn't it tied to the frost foing in the slab in the garage it's like a sidewalk I've got one they just it they continue to sidewalk I couldn't answer that I don't know that you'd want to tie I don't know um but yeah mine's not tied in mine is mine is yeah mine is tied into the garage concrete yeah they just yeah but there again my grandpa built it perspective well mine probably buil I don't know if there's a benefit I also got like an 8 in Pore too so I mean I'm much thicker than a lot of other people so again I'm just what benefit does the apron provide and what problem does it solve it's the two questions that come up when I'm looking at this like like I don't know historically what we were what they were doing why they were there um but to me it doesn't seem like concrete apron is the issue it's what's addressed is that there's compaction issues which is why it sinks and I think that's where you start so so mine I've seen quite a few drivings like this and pavement will cave in um mine did this and it has not caved in in the 15 years I've noticed it I can walk across that and I can hear it it's Hollow underneath there yep and it has not sunk but uh and that's why at the Planning Commission I asked them too if we're just talking about the cost of material I don't know what the downside is to doing this because they're there to do the sidewalk and on the garage pad it seems odd that it's going to cost that much more to do the skirt but I don't know I I would imagine it's all based on timing of when you know is the apron Port separately from the sidewalk or any other concrete work if if the truck's there at the same time yeah you're just the sidewalk would be called when they do the curb and G way before they do the construction of the home but oh butan like the sidewalk from the house to the street yeah I'm talking about yeah the house sidewalk um because it seems like again I can tell it's the same guy the same continuation of sidewalk across mine so had mine not been there I would have had to been doing some work so I I mean me personally the the the cement took care of that issue and it hasn't moved but I don't I don't know 100% of the homes I've owned with asphalt driveways it has sunk and so you know I but I don't doubt that it's a compaction issue but if we can't make it happen and I've had houses in the number of cities it's the same story over and over again and when you repave the driveway you end up putting in the concrete apron so or half my neighor just put the concrete apron in for me I don't know why we don't require right now I think there's a minimal cost difference between the asphalt and the concrete when they're already pouring the slab for the garage floor or the basement or Whatever Gets bundled together with that but I don't see it as a a big cost and I think it it resolves a problem that happens on almost every house what I'm a little confused by is in the the drawing you have up there shows another apron down by the curb am I yeah so it in again it's difficult to see on the screen but so there there's two aprons there's one at the edge of the garage and then one at the edge of the street and so you know this is kind of a two-part question and the focus is more on the apron at the garage um there's many cities that do require concrete apron on the boulevard so essentially between the property line and the curve um so that that would also be a question for the council currently we do not require that we do require that there be a hard surface doesn't have to be concrete but you do have to have whether it's concrete or or asphalt or papers or whatever to break it up um I'm sorry this is like a utilities thing like easier to access or I I I I don't know I it's in the code I I don't know we don't have a whole lot of gravel driveways that are built new gravel driveways that are built so um I couldn't say what the history is on that but we require the heart service we're not requiring concrete currently yeah currently now this one I can see where it could add cost because they're going to do it they're not going to necessarily do it when they do the pavment or the pad and sidewalk because they aren't necessarily going to know a few things so it seems like seems like that would be done by itself which means probably not cheap or a wash yeah I don't see the value of I don't even this one struggling for the one at the end of the driveway up at the garage I can see the drive that way I know a lot of my neighbors have had winter heave issues where the blacktop comes up higher than the garage and then all the snow and water gets in when it melts and melts into their garage I did yeah and I you know for me that's a like if we're going to build homes and date we should make that they're they're here in 50 years hopefully they don't the garage aren rotting away from the water getting you know being pushed that way so I get up by the garage I'm trying to think of I walk down the streets if I see any issues down by the street that I'm like oh that's a huge issue and I can't think of anything that I is when the cement doesn't meet the the the driveway pavement you have a lip oh um and yeah but or or the pavment sinks right where the yeah the the concrete is the soil's probably compacted better at that end of the driveway because you're not going to hit the garage plus you've had all those trucks driving up and down yeah so I'm okay with the buy the garage I don't know if we need to by the street that seems little bit I think we got I think we got good direction at least from Ador to the Council of pursu towards the house so you don't like it Scot right I'm not I I it's just more government I mean you're doing it because other cities are doing it that's the only reason we're doing it doesn't solve the compaction issue well mine did I would have had to replace I would have had to do something but it's still Hollow underneath you sir oh it is but it doesn't affect anything yeah yeah but there again it's like well why is it eroding underneath your concrete like there's still a problem it didn't compact well then you know water does its damage and it does it you know its thing and it gets in places where it's not supposed to and that you know furthers the problem so it's like you put a concrete pad there if you don't have any gutters to prevent the water from coming off that Eve like it's just getting underneath all the other spots and doing the same thing I just don't see the benefit here unless you're like actually addressing the problem which I don't think the concrete apron is necessarily the problem if all right question for Tom if if it caves in driveway caves in I believe there's a warranty on the home for like 5 to 10 years that you're fixing it anyway um the foundation is 10 um that would only be a onee coverage the driveway would only be a one-year coverage under state law um I will tell you just a few other variables would be you know so the excavator how far he sub cuts you know let's say sub cuts the hole really large and it's 8 ft out you know your s your your apron isn't going to be that much did you have to raise the house out of the ground just to for grade whatever and so now now the whole front is 2 feet low um so it is I think a compaction issue you know you can always you know if if it was to fail you know you can always cut the tar and pour an apron in later but there is a lot of people you know um like you mayor that that is true it's Hollow and it it solves a problem um but I don't think it's G to 100% solve a problem is it better I I I think it's probably better but uh you know when we when we build we require our excavators to use a jumping jack compactor they across there they go across the step so it's the same issue at the front step you know although a lot of times you'll tie um you'll tie the step Maybe into the front stoop you know that holds it but they'll settle there too and yes does the house have gutters or not there's just a whole array of things that I don't I don't know if it would fix fix it one you know I don't think you're going to eliminate all your problems with it so the direction from I have that I have from the council is to go ahead and prepare an ordinance amendment that would require concrete aprons at the garage um not at the curb and then don't do anything with garage size okay I think thank you all right on to item I ditch stabilization um Council I've seen this project several times um as recent as last month so I'll I'll go through it quickly it's just to present the quote results um and recommendation going forward um so again the Project's located along the river Dayton River Road um say in the north Westerly portion of the city as shown on the screen uh the revine does warrant improvements hennipen County did improve some of the Ravine with a project completed in 2023 the adjacent property owners are in favor and in support of the project henen County Grant there was a henen county Grant sec cured for $32,000 towards it uh Elm Creek Watershed has allotted $50,000 towards the project um Council had authorized the design on January 9th and authorized the solicitation solicitation of quotes at the March 26 meeting um again just a depiction showing what was improved by the county in 2023 and then the remainder of the the ditch or the channel to be stabilized with this Improvement this is the preliminary cost estimate that was previously presented it was $115,000 estimated total project cost with the breakdown as shown with the funding uh below that with the two grants secured leaving $23,000 to uh as the responsibility of the city was the estimate council's Direction was to limit the project to $85,000 for a total project cost um leaving the city's portion of $3,000 um uh towards the project uh quotes were received seven were solicited from um contractors uh five quotes were received um as shown here uh M&L is Minnesota native landscape uh their price was $61,500 which compares to the estimate of 70,000 so that did come in lower than uh estimated which revising the cost estimate for the project um putting the bid amount in as the estimated construction we did look at the engineering cost we were tracking about $8 to $9,000 below where we expected to be at this point so that has been adjusted as well so that came down from a I think it was about 32,000 down to 23 and then uh just uh talking with Zach and others on potential other indirect costs they seem very limited so we um lowered that a little bit as well I think we had like $2,600 on that before so about half of that which with the Project funding that does put the city's responsibility to about $4500 for the project um so still a little bit above the 3,000 um but much closer to to where the landing point was uh desired to be so our recommendation is to award the Construction contract to Minnesota native and the amount shown um and we would also recommend that the project not necessarily be limited um in scope um to to hold it to that $33,000 cost it might work out that the project gets accomplished for that um but our our thought is let's not sacrifice on the quality of the project and not achieve the results desired by limiting costs um and just to mention we did have uh an on-site meeting with the bidding contractors at least some of them showed up and there was concern that there was not enough Rock quantity in there um we think we have enough in there they thought we might not um so what I would hate to see is that we have to leave it even more short if you will of what we um would need to achieve the stabilization like we thought so um again it would just be Council direction that um we would implement the project as needed to achieve the desired results now that's not saying we're going to put threefold of the rock quantity in there and and have excessive costs we expect it to be uh near the estimated of the 61,000 what did they what did they believe would need to be added in they didn't give a number they just said that seems like it would be a low amount what would happen if we need to haul more rock in and we we shared that we've been limited with um or Council has suggested that we limit the cost so we would we would limit the amount of rock coming they need more rock we can s the farmers Fields they can go pick rocks probably free there so what you're saying is is that their number of 61510 may or may not have enough Rock in it is that what you're saying we think there is enough in there they they think they might need more it it's they bid it with the amount you we put the quantity of rock okay yeah we design yeah they're just saying your number is WR yeah they think more rock would be they didn't say how much they didn't say twice as much or four times as much they just said you know we might run short on Rock how would that be handled like every contract we pay by the bid amount so if you estimate 50 yards of rock and they need 40 you pay 40 if they need 60 you discuss it and you pay 60 if it's so once this project is started and all of a sudden they say oh we're $5,000 short on Rock I mean well Jason did the engineering we make him pay the $5,000 well we can stop it short I mean we no we don't do that well no we don't do that I mean that's what you're getting in my opinion that's what stanch's getting paid for is to say this is how much Rock we need and if we're the design if we're short in my opinion it comes off to 236 that'd be interesting because you're the one that said we need this much not you maybe but expect a high estimate on the next project yeah it's going to come out of one end or the other we might be we might be any for engineering I guess I'm a little confused that we get you know a $20,000 change order that that's all my concern is is that no understood and it's not expected it would be anything excessive and and we can still hold it I mean we can hold it to bid quantities um if that's desired we could hold it to a dollar amount it just it seems' say don't bring more in and finish while you're here consider if they say we need five grand more rock it would seem sad not to just right if yeah I I get what you're saying um I don't know how we provision for that though I just I don't as soon as we give a number that's exactly how much more rock they're going to need well I mean this this is no different than any project we do this on every quantity on every project if everything's dropped in price since we put this cap on we start putting caps on all projects engineering comes down the construction costs come down it's all good that's what I was going to suggest anyway because we're still $1,500 High well not that 1,500 big deal how much quantity of rock did you put in there I think there's 100 or no there's more than that 125 T no $125 per 300 ton maybe and I think the answer was 284 ton ROM number and how much is it per ton uh 125 I think on the little bit per I think we approve it is and take the change order if we have to have it yeah well there wouldn't need a there wouldn't need to be a change order you could process one it's it's not it's not unexpected work they're always estimated quantities some go over some go under and it may end up being that the $1,300 indirect we don't even need it so I mean it's possible I don't I don't so I don't know what you have on indirect I'll make a motion that we approve it for the 865 and then go with it and then limit the the scope of work no no well okay well you're not going to get that yeah I don't know how you I mean you might if if the work comes in under that well then why even take a bid do do you think the extra material will be more than the contingency um there's no contingency of these numbers I don't know wasn't there $ 1300 1300 on the last remember on your other indirect cost that's other indirect cost oh publication any publication and that's typically those indirect fees are gu Amy's team drafted the contract and then any other public if you get to the the 300 ton and and it looks short to you I would assume you would come back to us and say we need to cough up another five or something um we could um that might cost to remobilization so I guess what I'm confused about is are you asking for a I'm I'm not asking for I'm not asking for any action okay um I we were given instruction to limit do what we need to do to adjust total project cost below 85,000 y I'm just saying if we're looking like 87 89,000 let's not stop the project um let's let's finish it which is the same of every project ever done when we've had this come up in in parks that there's more feet of Trail than what we expected and or what was on the plan and um that's bid as a unit quantity didn't that come to us as a change order um I haven't been involved in any of your Park projects I'm not sure it could be you can you can do change change orders are only really required when I shouldn't say only but when we typically process them is when it's new work changing scope work yes change in scope exactly these are always estimated quantities it's always estimated and they each quantity has its own or each work item has its own price Rock has a price seeding has a price and you pay on how much is done if they do less than estimated you pay them less if they do more than estimated you typically pay them more if you exceed a certain threshold they have the right to come back and say we want to renegotiate our unit price so that that's one scenario where a change order might be appropriate you can pay above or below the quantities like for example we almost never pay out the full bit amount it it just I I think it's probably only happened on one two projects because there's an underrun of qual quality quantities so you will award a bid based on like this 615 they might not have to do half of the seating this might come in at 60,000 they might not have to take down as many trees as was anticipated it might come in at 58,000 they might have to take down more it comes in at 63,000 so they're always estimated quantities but then when you get out there and do the work you have to adjust on the Fly those changes as they come up in the field those are those are approved by you then generally yeah we'll we'll reverse we'll we'll converse with staff when there's extra dollars involved but when they're estimated quantities and as long as everything is tracking close um we usually dis authorize in the field it's not remember one change order that had quantity deltas and I thought it was over by or over in that thing but I mean I get what you're saying well there's always changes in quantities they almost never come in at the the plan some below some above yep and these might have been significant but I thought there was a I okay so um how do we may seem like a silly question but how do we limit the the the range here maybe the question is Jason in your opinion since you're the one who makes the call what is within reason you keep saying if the Chang is within reason quantity what do you what is your threshold for within reason I don't know I've never been asked us for a project but I I mean because we just this is every project there's nothing unique about this it's just that I think the difference is the city wasn't plenty on paying anything for this like I think we had like this is not like a yeah so if we this is why it's different double the four grand we up 100% yeah yeah yeah that's when the henan county Grant was larger oh so that and that that was my confusion or I led to that conion cuz the henen grant was larger okay they said you're not Award of the project we pulled back they contact us later and we have a partial award for you I mistakenly left it as fully funded because it would have been fully funded had we got the full amount yeah I'm okay I just I yeah and you're right we it's a it's and I think the question came up then too is they bid a amount per quantity not the quantity yeah they B quantity on the work there's probably 15 work items under this project I mean typically though when there's a unit cost they they bid the unit cost not necessarily the number of units or they they bid it for what we estimate you estimate they give you different cost based on how many units you're getting know to we going to know like 3 days before they uh are at that stage where hey I need I need one more truckload of rock well we won't cuz we'll we'll have a running Telly we'll have somebody checking in on site and we'll we'll have an want to not do the project ,000 bucks if that's what it ends up being but I mean you you just basically said maybe the tree trimming comes in $1,000 less and we need more rock so I personally I think we can go with the 865 and just find out where we are certainly if you grant if you give them 990,000 they're going to take 990,000 well I think we well we're not paying them 90,000 unless they do 90,000 in work we only pay I think they're talking I think got the C is looking at the total project not yeah well but the I mean everybody's only paid for the work completed including us I mean and they won't necessarily know unless they watch the meeting that we approve 90 I don't know um do you do you have any so yeah there's just it matters but there doesn't need to be done I just don't want a blank check on on any part of it without some level of oversight so yeah so that those would be my recommendations if you're looking to do some sort of like not open checkbook but basically and finish the project if it's minimal dollars right um so you could award the contract again for 61510 and then give authorization to either myself or Marty or you know whoever you feel comfortable with of a certain dollar bount above that you're able to say okay go ahead and just do the project do it right or all the way with all the raw quantities cuz if it's more rock that we need but then we have less tree trimming it's not going to me any difference correct um and again staff would use their best judgment to say okay it does it work or not I'm okay the money is small that's I'm the staff just figure it out yeah good I'll make a motion to approve the project let's do it that way all right that would be I'll second it any more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those oppos say no motion carries 5 Z all right you're out of the hot seat Chas item off the Record I'd like what he's on the hot seat back on the record okay uh this is a interim use permit for lawn smart located at 1748 117th Avenue North and just so I don't forget that this is a public hearing yep um the applicant uh Mike roves is requesting intern use permit for home business or home extend business uh there's two parts of this one is uh lawn smart is a commercial lawn care and snow removal business uh the second part is uh seasonal and year round outdoor storage uh specific to um the lawn care business uh the majority of the business is located it's hard to see here um but is in this exterior or this accessory building um there's some outdoor storage that's along the east property line this mostly snow plows and skid steer attachments uh there is a car port that has storage for lawnmowers and then there's also it doesn't show up on the aial photo but there's a a shipping container that's used for St salt storage uh the business has four full-time employees and up to 12 seasonal employees uh So within the code for a home extended business the intent is that there not be more than two employees other than members of the household um and there's a limited amount of outdoor storage uh within the code it does allow the council to to approve beyond what is in the code so the code says you can do XYZ the council can say you know you can do XYZ but in this case you can do more than that so in this case that is what the applicant is requested is to have more than two employees um specific to this section of the business the plan commission did recommend approval of it for up to 15 employees um and then for employee parking to be in the backyard behind the uh the shop um specific to the section second part of this business for without outdoor storage um aerial photo is probably better than that uh as you can see there's parking for approximately 20 vehicles um this is uh whether it's seasonal or uh yearound storage um you cannot see it from the road um I don't believe you can see it well from or probably not at all from the neighboring properties uh there is a a heavy tree line that goes around the uh area that's used as outdoor storage um again as a home extended business the intent is that the business is conducted in one accessory building with minimal outdoor storage this does exceed that so again the plan commission did recommend approval for it um I the applicant is here to answer any questions one thing I I would note in the uh the resolution does have an error on it so one of the conditions of approval is that there' be a limit to the days and hours of operation I had that written in my notes but that was not part of the motion that the Planning Commission made so I would ask that if I should say recommend that if the council want to approve that that that would be removed unless you wanted to add add it but it did not um who wants to go first do you want to hold the public hearing first or what do you want to do well we can do whatever you want to do yep does yeah um I'll open a public hearing for resolution 19 2024 is anybody here for the public hearing come on forward name and address name is Mike Groves address is 17480 117th Avenue North Dayton Minnesota um okay does anybody have any questions for for that I have a couple questions what year did you buy the property I believe in 2019 and what was in the storage area before it was storage area just trees how many trees did you take out 75 80 maybe um any other questions yeah I guess I go have couple miners standing from listening to the Planning Commission meeting you said you've got some fuel storage on site we do and that's a 500 gallon tank or a couple 500 gon there's two 500 gallon tanks yes okay and are are those tanks registered with the county um I believe they're registered through bod oil who provides us with our fuel but I I I I guess I can't I can't say for sure okay so one other reest requirements around those kind of above ground tanks is that there's secondary containment um for fuel spills does that exist today no it does not okay and know I don't know whether for your business it would be required or not but for a lot of um a lot of operations there's a need for a hazardous waste permit and has that been explored by you it has not okay um so those are concerns of mine that um you know that if you have a spill it's not going to be able to be properly contained um because of that requirement and tanks 500 gallons and larger um for commercial purposes need U need to be registered with the county and the mpca they you know the county does the enforcement of npca rules along with their additional requirements that the count so that's that's something that would have to be taken care of um it looks to me like we're well I guess we don't have anything exact you you know I counted just from looking at that drawing that you probably got room for about 25 trailers or boats or cars whatever and U the storage by ordinance would be limited to9 two acres because of your lot size so I don't know how that how that fits in I'm not that cool with the county um map to be able to measure things accurately but U I can show you thank you um PR so you know I don't know if you're if you're exceeding that or not but I I guess I would like to see the storage limited to what the the ordinance requires or the iup requires and and not exceeding that and maybe you don't I just don't have a way to judge that I guess John do you happen to notice you happen to know that I'm sure if I measured it 10 times i' come up with 10 answers but it I estimated an acre and a half whereas it's about an acre that you could have acre and a quarter I'm sorry you know so I mean it might be if you know just removing a couple of stalls we might do it so yeah so how much can you have per ordinance sorry it's 20% of the lot .92 so if I yeah for the whole lot so essentially if I do I'm going to I'm going to do all your trees just because that's all the area of space it's roughly 047 of an anre for that square area and the in the tree area okay there plus outdoor storage for the lawn care P yep I did not count that I just counted the the trailer Space trailer space area and to me it's seems like a lot of a lot of business to pack into that size area but then I look at the area around you um neighbor to the north has probably got more trailers than that on the back their lot that's a business or if that's just his own junk but you know it's kind of like what's in the what's in the neighborhood um you know as you mentioned you've got industrial properties across the street and uh you know I I'm more the loss of the trees there but if we're going to come along in 20 years and put a road through there they're going anyway so you know it's I don't know it's it's it's a loss either way it's just happen sooner than maybe it needed to but um you do your do your long-term plans include you know moving to a a commercial site or is is this kind of the the plan that you want to run with you definitely um I mean we we bought the property with the intent of running the business out of it um I I I guess I haven't uh haven't given consideration of moving to a a commercial site um long term I mean we could have a door knock tomorrow guy wants to buy us out I mean we don't who knows um I feel like it's going to be I mean the building across the Street's vacant so to me before I get bought out that building needs to be you know full or have someone in it um so I mean long term we probably won't be there because we'll get either bought out or pushed out um how long that's going to be I guess none of us know when you so this was the plan when you when you bought the property and moved in and were you unaware of the a requirement for an iup for this yeah I I was not aware when you when you say you're not aware didn't put plus you didn't call I mean there to me there's so many things that are uh being violated here that I mean clearly nobody did any homework on on any of the ordinances what right but I I mean what I don't know I don't know yeah so yeah well you don't know you can ask I think is what Scott's getting at like to I don't know is one thing but to say I don't know but I'm going to find out is a different answer and so a lot of a lot of times though people don't know that they have that that that there is a question to ask yeah that's fine I get that yeah I'm I'm kind of with Scot on this one where to me to me having two 500 gallon gas tanks sitting there with with nothing I mean we didn't call nobody and I'm just going to put thousand gallons of fuel here and call it good uh I'm I'm on the uh side that U I would deny this I'm I'm actually with Scott on this one I uh down yeah I know very rely happens but I actually agree with Scott on this one that uh I uh I don't think this is the right place for this I mean the fuel that close and residential area doesn't make sense I get it's right across the street from nonresidential but you're right next to residential as well so I think it it goes both ways I think you know we got to as a city start to mature the point where we're running commercial businesses in commercial zones and we're having homes in residential areas and so um you know we allow small businesses of two employees and I'm okay with that you've got Lawn Care folks right on the street from you and I know what you do and and they're in the correct the Zone space for that and so partly wonders if by allowing you to do Residential space we're doing they kind of get the short on of the stick right because they're doing the same business you're doing but you pay less in taxes so your overhead cost are less so as a default we're hurting that business by allowing your business to operate here um so I'm trying to be fair across everyone I know this is not what you want to hear in order I want to be the the person that has to say it but um yeah I'm trying to be equal to our businesses and our residents and just you know try to be consistent across the board and so yeah I'm with I'm with Scott on this one well does anybody else have any questions for the applicant again another thought around it and you know I have to say don't they don't love this like I said I think you're you're packing a lot of business into a small area but you know we've got homebased businesses all over Dayton and you know I don't know if that's part of our rural field or what you know or we only like good things when we say that but you know that's a lot a lot of people in Dayton I mean you carry that to an extreme Farms are homebased businesses and you know we we don't discourage that um you know this to me you know is growing to a point where you really ought to be looking for you know a properly zoned place but we do allow homebased businesses through that iup process and you know it's frustrating that that you weren't here in 2019 um you know to get the get the permit before you went into operation or maybe even before you bought to you know to have that question answered um I'm I'm reluctant to put you out of business over this is what it comes down to I'll maybe I'll I'll edit my motion I would give him one year I think that's fair I don't want to put him out of business is is for five years we can set the term right you can set you can yeah so that gives him one year to figure out what he's going to do and how he's going to do it and I don't want to shut them down tomorrow that's not that's not what I want either but I I think a year is more than enough time to figure out where you're going to run your business out of maybe Scott you in a business you tell me is a year enough time to figure out and move and get all that how long did it take you when you moved four months okay so well one year I up would be enough for him to to get that done right yeah that that would be my I guess middle ground on the on the matters I would I would vote no on anything that's more than one year I mean I don't know what's available in Deen but I'm sure there's building there's there's are there commercial spots right over here that are open no I don't think so I mean for me the for me the biggest thing here is is nothing was checked in before we we just we moved to this lot and I'm going to do what I want to do and all of a sudden this is where we are so and I mean all the different things here that are being uh taken advantage of question I mean you can't even you can't even clean them up there are two parts of this business so you have lawn care and outdoor storage so is the opposition for both businesses and I also want to make sure we're still in a public hearing time so if we need to so if we're if we're done with questions we can maybe see if there's anybody else in the audience is there anybody El that wants to come forward on this is there anybody online um if the person online is wanting to speak in the public hearing if you just want to use the raise your hand function I you can close the hearing mm I think you can close the hearing okay I will close the hearing um I'm inclined to approve it with the fiveyear iup it's an iup it's I would want to limit what we're seeing or what you know maybe that that space to with what uh David mentioned um when the Planning Commission I think wanted a limit of 15 that's where I'm at so I don't are you okay with the five are you want one your IP or I'm okay with the five um but I think that the that the other requirements of the iup in terms of you know allowable storage and so on those need to be those need to be followed and also you know I mean I don't know that we need to include this because it's already law but those those tanks and things those need to be licensed or registered and and properly contained to prevent the the chance of a spill there um you know that benefits all of us and and that's the problem I think with you know sort of unregulated doing what you want on your property is that nobody's you know you're you're unaware that those are requirements I get that there's a lot of things I don't know either and but um if you've got that you got the proper permit in place then um you know then we're going to hold you to doing the things that are required by it um so don't know where I'm going if we need to include the things around the hazardous waste and the and the fuel storage in the iup then then I would want to do that okay yeah mayor and council members I would recommend including anything you want to make sure gets enforced in the iup whether it's by other law or not just to ensure that we could follow up with the applicant um with with the proper procedures so if you want anything included make sure it's get included in the iup yeah so that's where I man on it just want to clarify you both are wanting to approve the fiveyear with everything that allowed there except for limiting the it's up to you the trip it's up to me I mean I I yeah we can go I what's the requirement Chief what's the requirement on a 500-gallon fuel tank that has no approval of nothing I don't know if that falls on fire mayor members of council I guess I'd look at it from fire code perspective no different in that capacity where it's going to circle back to mpca to co fant's perspective and we get into an issue of fuel leaking then it turns into reportable quantity State duty officer and many other things with mpca so I I completely agree with what Minister Dow had said has put in and what the requirements you believe need to be in there no different than for any other property you would have you outload State Fire Cod and those such things yeah yeah I guess I'm I'm okay with the fiveyear um but to David's point though that requires a Hazmat um analysis for the storages that you have a spill prevention plan and then out of that might be has whopper training too for how to operate within you know the the chemicals that you bring on your site um yeah there has to be some and I again that's going to be an an mpca call or a uh um DNR I think whatever does the spill prevention um whatever Avenue that is but yeah that should be followed because that I mean I'm taking a wild guess but is that one container like used oil or something like that it's just Diesel and unleaded fuel okay and then it has to have the proper containers in it as well like storage in the proper containers um yeah I want to I want to see a business work in Dayton um I don't want to have but with that comes limitations too so and there's already a requirement so I that the I that the the storage container be yes the city code does not allow storage containers for as permanent storage you know carports are intended to be for vehicles not uh storage items right do we that that isn't anything contingent on where I'm feeling about this but I I didn't think when we approved that carport thing that we put any restrictions on what you could store under it because it seemed silly to me at the time that if you can't stick your and snowblower under it then they just sit out in the yard I think we beat that back that yeah that's what I thought yeah okay I can take a look again yeah because that did come up that we could only sore cars at a carport I'm like yeah I thought we took that off yeah I think we did right outside if we didn't we should okay well sounds like do you have clear Direction John I just want to make sure you have clear Direction I don't there's not a motion yeah we need a motion okay so I guess I'll make the motion to approve the iup for five years with the conditions that we've talked about that that the storage needs to match the what's allowed in the ordinance and u just clarify so um I've got three items based on conversation uh so first one is uh require registration of the fuel tanks with the mpca um obtain a I'm calling it a hazardous waste generators license if required and then a maximum of 20% of the lot can be outdoor storage that's correct that's my motion a second I'll second any more discussion mayor members of council if I may um I would just suggest being very Broad in your don't be very specific as far as um you know what did you say John as far as I can't remember just be very Broad in your statements as it results to regulation so maybe you're just seeing anything related to fuel is the mpca whatever those rules and regulations are don't narrow it s so so specific if that makes sense so Fuel and chemical storage and so following all npca requirements essentially instead of saying they just register it now we you know you register it and they don't have sure what the followup for it so if we say there has to be all npca requirements now we have okay it's got to meet all NPC requirements all time um that's that would be the I think that's what U Chief hon is saying this so I'll amend my motion to say comply with all mpca in hanen count any requirements on Fu storage and waste one question for the motion so I mentioned earlier striking the requirement limiting the days and hours of operation do you are you okay with striking that yes stri okay and are we doing anything about uh the tree not not adequate tree um screening uh the number of employees the number of trucks the container St didn't it come up in the Planning Commission about adding screening on the Eide because had all the screenings on the other property and not on this property was that part of the is that part of the motion already uh it's not part of the motion it's not part of the that's what I'm asking we don't have any there was discussion about that what what did they the intent so I they're screening it's just it's on the other property correct so if I could suggest a amended to the motion of Maximum 20% of outdoor storage that is screen adequately screened from the jent neighbors and then' be up to the the property owner how they want to do that whether it's the fence or trees yeah that okay any more discussion okay all those in favor say I all those opposed say no no you or a no correct okay sure passes 3 to two right thank you and now we have Event Center public hearing okay and again so I don't forget that this is also a public hearing uh so this is a intern use permit for an event center for Dean pumpkins located at 172 725th Avenue uh so just geographically I know Council knows where this is it's the sharp corner where 125th and East French Lake Road uh inter can't say intersect but it's just it's a sharp Bend in the road um the Deans own I I want to say it's about 600 acres or so uh The Event Center covers track The Event Center covers six Parcels totaling about 300 acres um as a council is where we've asked uh businesses that are operating an event center to come in and apply for an IEP for an event center the first was uh Fisher Farms last year um and now it's Dean pumpkins so we've asked uh the event centers to clarify all every type of event they could possibly imagine imagine being held on the property whether they actually do it or not and so the lists on the screen here is everything that Deans has come up with uh which you just for those that that can't those that might be watching this and can't read the screen is uh corn maze hay rid slay rides haunted attractions concerts Ice Castles Christmas tree sales birthday parties corn pits Inflatables weddings and receptions Easter activities and Motocross and specific to Motocross it's not it's more of a a Motocross practice facility not like a not in Mot it's not like a NASCAR type of track is the intent so um again this the aerial photo is kind of a focus uh most generally speaking parking is going to be on the south side of the road here uh most events will occur around The Farmstead uh the pumpkin patch will shift as year toe the motorcross is located kind of in the northwest corner of the property um and and again to to put an anthis on on this this or on the location this is in the middle I don't want to say the middle of nowhere because middle of day Dayton is somewhere um but homes are far away uh you know the Deans own the neighboring homes that are located here as well as off the picture here um the closest neighbor is down off the screen here over a th000 ft away so there's some distance um uh so again what's on the screen and I know that this isn't very legible from the distance is the ordinance and event centers uh the only item that I guess I want to bring up to the council is that the event center ordinance does require parking on a uh a an improved surface so gravel as an example of an improved surface um in this case the parking that's been used has been in a field um the idea uh in this my interpretations when you're parking on a field you can still produce hay on it it's still a producible crop here um if it's gravel you're it's just a gravel parking lot there's nothing else that can happen with it um we did reach out to other communities that have um similarly sized event centers so not necessarily exactly what the pick your own pumpkins but uh more so with the um uh Halloween events and so uh there's a number of um I'll say resolutions or conditions of approval that are in the packet probably the biggest thing is just controlling crowds um so the pick your own pumpkins I I guess when I've seen there's there's hundreds of cars or hundreds of people that are out there um when things are good it's easy to control when you have whether there's inclement weather or something else going on it's a little bit more difficult so uh one of the conditions of approval is that before Deans can start operation is that we do want them to submit a an Emergency Operations plan of how they would handle certain types of events so uh that plan would be reviewed by our staff and I'm going to say would be accepted uh by the fire chief and police chief as well as the building official um before the the business goes into operation for the season that's my short summary um so you have a footnote in here that back in 2000 they were concerned about um commercial uses on egg preserve land yes and I'm going to lean on Leo for the the history of that so from my understanding is uh the property owner did apply for I believe it was a conditional use use permit for the motorcross um there were certain limitations with using um agricult land that was uh designate agricultural preserve for a non-agricultural use and so uh the item was tabled and then expired or uh not sure if it expired today still Ted today I think it I believe it was withdrawn so yeah is it still egg preserved there no okay that's then we're done all right it does bring me to a question though because in looking at like uh ERC which I realize this is not or ERX I guess um this is not but that was a a conditional use permit that they got from Elk River for that and in our um guide here under this ordinance I guess what I'm not clear on is um we got a a section there or a check box for commercial recreation and does that what does that cover uh whatever you would like it to cover so I you know commercial not sure if we have a definition for commercial recreation um it's fairly broad yeah I'm just wondering does that fit under the I iup that we're talking about the the bik stuff and or does it need to be a cup um so the the application is for the event center which is can be all encompassing I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly so like using the property for the motorcross it's an event um you could also call it a commercial recreational similar to the go-kart track that's in Dayton um I think the idea as an intern use is it it is a temporary use for as you know in this case the plan commission's recommendation was a 30-year temporary use um I guess from my experience a conditional use permit is more appropriate when there's um an investment in a permanent structure so for the example would be is you have a mortgage company that would not give a loan for something that they don't have a guarantee that's not going to be there next year or five years from now uh with the intern use permit um you know similarly I guess that might be tied into the use of the the building for the event center but much of this is based on the use of the land so if this was not a pumpkin patch I I don't know if there'd be as much of a draw to this location yeah and it almost doesn't matter to me I just don't want us to be crosswise with our own requirements this is a very broad permit but you know when you think of all the things that that could operate here we're we're calling it an event center but it it's very broad okay so if that's not necessary under that definition then I don't need to add to the paperwork on it but um the other question I had I lost my page um oops there we go so under staff recommendations it says the resolution includes allowing Public Safety officials to close operations immediately if warranted what do we Define as warranted um it's really going to be up to the the discretion of whoever's on site for Public Safety um and I think a lot of it is just based on the controlling of of people the people that are there so um I don't know if there's yeah go ahead Mr Mayor members of the council it would be more like if you had a large fight uh um anything like that it would give us the authority to shut the operation down to control the situation and get everybody out of there or a large incident such as an active shooter or anything like that we'd have the authority to shut the business down for the night or the weekend um to investigate to what took place all right thank you uh any questions for the applicant otherwise we can open the public meeting let's do that yeah we'll open the public hearing for resolution 2024 anybody here for this public meeting anybody online so if you're online to speak on the public hearing if you use the raise your hand function we're good all right we will close the public I have no problems with it I'm going to make a motion that we approve this for the 10e iup it's only 10 yeah could just redo it in 10 10 years from now so more is another current process that he has to go another payment that has come out or I would I mean what's the reason staff wants to be 10 years sorry say that again why would we want it to be 10 years yeah um so the Planning Commission recommended 30 years and I don't think staff has aern orend yeah so staff's the staff report the staff's recommendation was for 10 years in the 10 there is that the best plans that we can come up with are only good for 10 years but it is you know I'm going to say somewhat of an arbitrary if there's a problem we can always bring it back yeah I'm good with the 30 sorry that was right sard your question I'll change it I'll approve it as it as is right I'll second so it's 30 years correct 30 years that theend and Matt you yes sir any more discussion mayor and members of council yeah um I just want to point out that again I like the IEP to indicate that all state fire codes need to be referenced or allowed because as everything that's listed if we go from a wedding to serving alcohol and food we move from an A1 to or from an A3 to an A2 to an A1 which then requires different fire codes as it relates to fire sprinklers inside the Advent Center and so forth so I just want to make sure that that is outlined I'm fine with everything Dean's been great to work with I just want to make sure as whatever they decide to do later on that we have that provision in there reference the state fire code okay I agree you want to amend the motion or because that's I don't know if it's in there right now that's why I'm asking um I would suest well we have item two which is prior to indoor operations building shall be made compliant with building fire and health codes each building used for the event center shall be posted with its ma maximum capacity and shall not exceed this capacity should say occupancy rather than capacity never mind all right keep going okay we got a motion a second more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no motion carries 5 to zero with that 10 minutes off that's who did that that was me thanks guys and Tom feel free to show up close session in [Laughter] anyone thanks yall okay now we need to clear the clear the room close so now uh you guys want to take a 5 minute recess for Council you okay let's take a little recess e e e e e e e so we are back from recess and we are going to going to close session pursuant to Minnesota statute section 30d 05 subdivision 3B for a confidential discussion with legal council regarding litigation I a motion a second a motion second second we got we got for a second say give it to Da Dave all those in favor say I I I all those suppos say no to Z we are an unclosed session e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e so we are back from our close session and um if there are no objections we will be adjourned all right we're adjourned boom e e e e e