e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e all I call the order the Tuesday March 26 May dton City Council stand for pledge pled Ali to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God IND liy and justice for all okay so [Music] [Applause] um all right again um Dave are you on yes can you hear me yeah I can hear you we can hear you um so we had a little discussion prior of the meeting and um what what we are uh we're of the understanding that you're that you probably aren't allowed to vote because of your remote access yeah I just saw English message so okay so that was via our um our attorney and I and I believe she's correct but um so you you will still you'll still be online you can still comment on these things is that yeah okay that's what it is that's what it is all right uh so I need a motion second for the agenda I can make a motion second any discussion we have to add gambling approval of gambling permit for um Lane festival for at the Dayton Bar is everybody okay with putting that in consent or do we want to pull that out it's fine by me so make it an F1 yes please okay any other changes okay so we got a motion at second all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no motion carries 4 to zero consent I need a motion a second make a motion I'll second any discussion um I did have something oh item e um do we when we get anything that'll trip a 60-day Ru do we somehow put that somewhere on a calendar or somewhere where it's it's going to pop up in front of four or five people so that it can't get missed you know what I'm getting yeah so mayor and M scult we will we had that before and then okay we missed it based on the fact I think there was some discussion at the Planning Commission and they decided to table it or something along those lines they did and that ended up tripping that 60-day rule so what the error was at staff at that time was that we didn't notify the planning which that they had to make a decision they didn't have a choice um we had this come up at the last council at the last Planning Commission meeting and um community development director um John sealt had to let them know that we have to make a decision because we will trip a timeline so um we are aware of the timelines and now there are more people involved to be able to help and assist that process so it won't happen again this has already been approved technically but um we need a paper TR we want to make sure we have a paper trail no I have no problem with that I just don't want us to get caught on something that we would not like to be defaulted oh agreed so there has been multiple items added to be able to make sure that we don't miss these timelines again okay um I think that's all I had on consent um you got my item so we're good Scott or uh um Dave did you have any questions about consent uh no not this time okay um the the payment of claims report was a little different this times and it didn't have the descriptions of the purchases but um you know I know most of these vendors by now so I kind of worked my way through it but I'd rather have that included in the future yeah so mayor mever council that was a change um this is an audit request an auditor request of ours we did not have time to get a custom report made in time before we could get the council packet out so that has been made so you will see those and and things that were revised from the Auditors will be on the next packet so you you will see the descriptions again so I apologize about this um I will send if you guys want to see an individual one I will resend this off um into the descriptions on it so you can have questions on them backwards but and that was my request that we get this current one redone in the new format so we can see it because that' be helpful I'm okay approving it but I want to still want to see what they are and then we can ask questions later was not try to hide anything it was just a quick auditor request and we didn't have time to make a custom report so as long as we're on that I've got two questions on there that I sent to Zach to ask him about Dave I'm also not a fan of of this report either but uh across the street what's that 8600 bucks I believe that is a production process I'm looking it up right now just to make sure I did not I wanted have time today I didn't actually get time and then salesbury Industries is also one that is not familiar yeah give me one half second I'll have both those for I I believe across the street is something related to our Activity Center um um but it's a production production company was it for like 2700 bucks for saly PD lockers okay oh okay the across the street one is related to professional development for the fire department um this is blue card training oh for 25 um Pinnacle firefighters mhm blue card training I believe believe is like the new standard for Fire Department training so they're all all departments are trained exactly the same yep from what I understand okay it's a one time deal yep and then yeah confirm that the one for that uh Chief was the sales are who that for lockers apologize about the delay all right so we going to motion second any more discussion all those in favor with the uh Amendment for the game permit say I I all those oppos say no Carri is 4 to zero you're good um open Forum do we have anybody here for open Forum do we have it come on forward for non-agenda items so open a forum limited to three minutes for non-agenda items um state your name and address no conso action will be ah cool perfect yep thank you no conso action will be taken items will be referred back to staff I just wanted to talk about oh sorry my name is Caitlyn Wade I live at 15609 116th Avenue North in the Brer Trails neighborhood um so I attended the meeting that they had at the Sundance Golf Course regarding area 21 Park um I know some of the plans that were up that I guess that Paul did for us aren't the ones that are going to be presented today um my concern was that we are it looks like it is over budget $496,000 so I was curious as to what happens to the contingency money if it's not utilized if it is still used for the area 21 Park um another Resident um addressed the bathrooms and the location I know that we were told that a well was not going to dug um but now it looks like there will be one um as it was on the financial worksheet um so that's why we were told we couldn't have bathrooms but we were told that portapotty would be there and it's just not on the plot map that I saw and then also with the I guess Park Furniture um kind of looking to what I added up it came up to $161,000 and I was I guess curious if there is a single approved vendor that we have to go through or if we can I guess shop around and find something uh specifically trash cans being $2,000 a piece is kind of outrageous to me so I don't know why that cost is so high if we're already over budget and also that extra money could be used for the playground area or I know people wanted tennis courts I know that's probably out of the question because it's so expensive um but that was the biggest concerns that the other residents that I spoke to kind of talked about um and then the other one would be the culdesac which I think that doubles the price if we add the culdesac and then it looks here that there's two parking lots but the price differs but they hold the same amount of parking stall so I'm not sure why that is a $4,000 difference there either just in my opinion I've never been to a meeting like this before I'm I'm new to this I'm a new homeowner so I guess my concern is are we prioritizing the money in a way that is beneficial to the residents who are going to be utilizing the park um like I said when I saw the price for the trash receptacle at $2,000 and I think there's going to be three of them at $6,000 that's a lot of money that I think can be utilized elsewhere um so that's just my input um I don't know if my opinion and my thoughts are going to change because we didn't really get notified of what the park was going to look like until today um when the packet came out so I'm not sure how many changes can be made and then I would also be interested to see another Financial worksheet breakdown of phase one and Phase 2 like we received when we went to the meeting I mean it has individual itemized breakdown rounds cuz the numbers are some of them are quite different um than what was originally given to us on March 4th so I would just be curious to see why those numbers changed and if the money I guess and your guys's opinion is is being used in a way that's beneficial for people going to the park and it seems to me that maybe the park is more aimed towards adults and not children because the play area is so small um I have a 2-year-old son so I imagine he's probably going to be using the park until he's about 12 I don't see him utilizing the the disc golf or The pickleball courts and then also one more quick um thing is the basketball hoops two basketball hoops is $13,000 and we have one full basketball court one hoop on each end and then two more if people are using these hoops this can't be used and if people are using these hoops these can't be used so that's $113,000 that can be utilized somewhere else it just doesn't make sense to have four basketball hoops on one full basketball court um I think that's all I have though um okay so yeah thank you um so this is going to be talked about at the end of the meeting so you're going to stick around okay kin there's a future on Council for you uh anybody else anybody online I do have someone with their hand raised that will allow us to talk hello can you hear me yep yep okay uh my name is Eric sewal I'm a resident 11534 braver trails and excuse me um so also just commenting on the later agenda item um I think first of all just I'd like to voice uh support in the proposed plan um and to include all features of the phase one including playground basketball court pickall court and sand volleyball um even though it is being over the allocated budget um but by utilizing the budget strategies that I think are going to be discussed later um or other means possible um I think one feature not on the included on this proposed plan but on a PR preliminary plan was the food truck parking roundabout um I think the original design although quite appealing was likely more than necessary and contributed to being over budget although not a necessity given the popularity of regular food trucks in other neighborhoods and the high participation at infrequent food truck events in the braver neighborhood I do see this park design as an opportunity to more appropriately accommodate this type of activity I guess what my recommendation would be is to make the the parking lot design um so that it can effectively accommodate a food truck um I think this simply boils down to maybe the the parking stall orientation orientation especially um related to to handicap parking since that could um either one uh make it non-h handicap accessible or two non food truck accessible um by violating handicap parking spots um I think doing so would provide a designated area for this type of activity rather than being on the street which creates safety concerns and undo uh burden on whichever homeowner the food truck parks in front of on the street and I think these are issues that could ultimately lead to this activity being unwelcome uh I think the final topic with this is just I wanted to I saw there's a mention of a cdaa donation for a formal baseball field in Phase 2 I guess I'm not aware and maybe this might be discussed later of the specifics of this as to whether it's been accepted if Council will be deciding on this tonight or if it was simply an idea uh to be further discussed during phase two planning um personally myself I have no strong feelings either for or against this at this time but since it had not been discussed at Park commission Council or Community open house meetings prior I guess I don't feel it would be appropriate to make any final decision on this tonight as It ultimately takes away uh one quarter of the park space from the neighborhood depending on I guess the usage schedule of cdaa programing and also limits the type of use for that quadrant specifically when not being used um for baseball um I guess I'd personally like to know for what ages that field would be used how the use scheduling works um and those sorts of logistics before I guess being okay accepting that cdaa collaboration and donation thank you thank you anybody else all right so we are done with um up for staff consultant Council updates that yes um good evening mayor members of council I only have one update tonight and I don't have a full update I just wanted to let you guys know that we did get um a decision made or decision made by the appellant court for our housing first case um I don't have anything specific to give you because I don't have The Memo from our attorneys yet but I do want to let you know that um part of it was affirmed um as in they confirmed the decision made by The District Court part of it was reversed and part of it was remanded back to the district court so which part was reversed um standing the standing yes correct okay yep so um I will have a full memo to the council later on once I get that from our attorneys but just want to provide you an update that we did get something and which was good bad and indifference so there was a secondary part to that the original ruling is that what was affirmed or do we know yeah um mayor members of the council I'm not litigation Council on this on this case so I'm not and it was and it started before my time here so it's not sure I can answer your questions um so as I understand the the opinion um there the the court decided that they do have standing to seek the the declar atory action or declaratory judgment and the injunctive relief I'm sorry declaratory relief and injunctive relief um but that um the the district court was um did not make a mistake in dis dismissing um the claims the takings claims and the due process claims well that and that's the important part right okay and so the it was to I mean since I'm not as familiar with the case is your litigation Council from Green espel um it seems to me that it's not really clear what the district court is supposed to do now with the part that's been remanded but hopefully they'll figure it out correct so as soon as I have a memo I will gladly provide a and they will they'll give us be here okay yeah okay they'll give an update we'll have them come into the council so give a full update so you guys have that cool okay that's all I have thank you Amy um I just have a reminder that the ail 9th meeeting is our local board of appeals meeting um so if residents um are wanting to appeal the valuation of their properties that they still need to contact the County first but then we'll have that open board meeting um where you have the opportunity to come and have comparables and um the council can make a decision on um adjusting that ready mayor and Council I only have a couple of uh updates uh we did find a used bucket truck that we put an offer in on um uh the bucket truck comes in total tax uh total price with tax and title and all the other bits and pieces is 129,000 um so we're under budget um by 20739 of the 150 that we were going to uh that we budgeted it's a 2016 freight liner it's got 51,000 miles and it's got 9 and a 9 and half th000 engine hours on it um it's going to be delivered in the next week or two um we did get 30 days of warranty on it so we're going to work it hard for 30 days 30 days 30 days yeah I know so we not started it's something you know yep no that's yep better than nothing for us equipment so yeah um and then um tomor we've been plowing pretty hard the last couple of days um the guys are just finishing up now um there's going to be a couple of guys in tomorrow morning just checking for drift in they'll be in around 5:00 um checking for drif in in slick spots but uh that's where we're at all right gabin mayor council uh firewise no updates uh currently from last two weeks evening mayor members of the council only update is our two new hires will be starting April 8th um they are brand new guys um so will be a busy full fto program throughout the summer John noes Jas not for me either I'm good I'm good I got nothing I just want to say thanks to staff for keeping the streets plowed and all the First Responders that help during the snowstorm so I know it puts extra burden in everyone so thank you for the long hours for that all yeah all right on the council business does daveid got anything you wants to add Dave do you have any no I'm good okay all right all right uh item G mayor and Council I just wanted to give an update on where we are with this is kind of an odd purchase because we didn't have phone price in and we had to act pretty swiftly on this so I just wanted to give you an update some of the uh items came in above price some came in below price that was our best guess um but generally speaking um we didn't break the CIP budget um there's still money left from 2023 that wasn't spent so um I just wanted to have some transparency with you guys and keep you up to up to speed of where we're at with it um the all the the trucks are being uh we got chassis for four of the vehicles one uh is still outstanding and they're all in production with bodies and that kind of stuff now so we're in good shape right anybody have any questions B item G okay then we are on to item H thank you Mr Mayor click on click on the PowerPoint ones no no no oh go back U make sure that's small in the bottom of the corner um far left but there you go okay uh for item or item H is for riverv viw Villa so this is a two properties located at 16361 Dayton Avenue and 18541 Levy Street so it's the uh southwest corner of um Dayton Avenue Levy Street uh previously this was two single family h Homes uh the homes have been removed uh the applicant is proposing to uh subdivide these two lots which means moving the property line around uh to the to the West a little bit uh it would still be two lots but we would have a threx one threx on each lot so six units total uh the application has a three different parts to it the first is a zoning map Amendment for the West Property uh the second is the preliminary and final plant and the third is site plan review uh this was previously reviewed as a concept plan by the council in January I believe um this is a detail of the zoning map and the uh historic framework plan so within the historic framework plan uh the guideline is for Town Homes um roughly at eight units whereas uh the proposal is for six so the eight units is kind of a it's intended as a guide not a something that's set in stone uh critical issues uh stand had requested an an Alleyway that would cross the mid block uh from east to west the primarily primary function of the the alleyway would be to service um potential future commercial properties along Robinson so the assumption is is that as properties on Robinson redevelop um there there's likely going to be uh limitation as far as driveway access on Robinson Street and so the main access uh for customers and for employees would be off of the alleyway um within the city code uh there's a requirement for either 25 ft of rideway in commercial areas and 20 ft for residential uh the Planning Commission recommended 20 ft so uh this would be 20 ft of rideway but uh 12 ft paved and be centered on the rear property line um with this Pro this project is roughly a quarter of the block size and so right away RightWay would be dedicated with the plat and Alleyway would not be built until there's an actual need so essentially as the development or as the block redevelops um during the plan commission meeting we kind of just had a discussion of um I'm going to say two examples one from Minneapolis and one from oio of 16 fet RightWay versus 20 ft and again the plan commission recommended 20 ft let's see what else within uh the city code there's a a requirement that pushes buildings as much building along the the street fren as possible um or I'm thinking 65% of the frontage would need to be building um this is the first project I'm aware of a first Redevelopment project since we've adopted this section of the code um if we were following the code it would need to be the building would need to be 85 ft in depth on that corner property whereas what's being proposed is 66 ft uh this was brought up during the concept plan review which the council was okay with it as it is uh the plan commission also recommended to keep it as it is at 66 ft uh the following is kind of a breakdown of architectual requirements and just to to kind of keep it short is that the project is compliant with city code there we go that's next project so once again what this is asking for is there's a zoning map Amendment uh preliminary and final plant and a site plan um the applicant is requesting return for uh dedication right away for an Alleyway the applicant is requesting a reduction in fees should also mention that within the resolution there's fees that are in correctly stated so we will fix those before it's signed they are the old fees right yeah so during the review final review process um it was noted that the fee should be calculated based on 12 units per acre as this is being developed at 12 units an acre and not residential so residential is um much larger because it's expected to only have one single family home so it would then cost or take up more dollars in order to feed that project with water sewer trails whatever um the costs are less or significantly less depending on which way you look at it for a higher density um building and that's what these ones be classified as so it significantly reduces the fees per um per per or per unit and then we are giving credit for two units because it has been previously paid from those two previous homes so come up just an sorry provide you the information difference in those fees is roughly I think it's like $69,000 for all the fees that were in the listed in the packet the total fees at the end if you did the other um the correct where out of 12 units per acre would be roughly $27,000 so it is a significant amount of difference thank you Mr Mayor members of the council City staff and the residents of the great city of Dayton it is an honor to be here myself and my partner wife arum uh uh we will both apologize in advance uh I've had the second round of the bug this season I'm on about a week and half into it so I apologize for the copy in advance she's right in the thick of it so don't shake her hand for sure well Mr Mayor uh and Council this has been a a great experience it's been an experience it's been well over a year and what I mean by great is talking with residents with stakeholders going back and forth with councel with staff incorporating feedback doing market research trying to get the ideas for the highest and best use of the land many of those features obviously have changed uh with each meeting we've had Eda uh uh Planning Commission Round One round two city council round one this is round two and I highlighted some of those last time what I would uh just want to highlight this time since the last time you saw this uh we added a window uh on on both ends of each uh building we do you have a slide at your fingertips for the first floor plan yeah yes but not with the revise oh uh no okay so one uh go ahead oh go ahead so that would that's one change another would be the parking lot in the rear uh if you you probably don't have the the previous version but we a recommendation from the the Planning Commission was to change the furthest uh portion of the asphalt from the property uh getting rid of the green space between them so we that Edition has been Incorporated one of the things that was noted uh uh by one of the the contract subcontractors we were getting a bid from are those upper level uh master bedroom Juliet Balcony French doors that that they would open inwards not a problem but our intent would have been to have a screen door on the on the exterior which would open outwards and a Juliet Balcony would prevent uh those from opening outwards if that makes sense so what we're doing we're toying with several different ideas but what we have Incorporated here is an actual uh balcony I guess they call a French balcony it's just just enough to clear the doors and then it's using the header on the front of the porch there to to uh hold the far end up if that makes sense and then uh Mr Mayor had a a question why last time why is that in this particular depiction the unit on the far left flipped and I didn't think of it at the time but the reason it's flipped is the kitchen is on the far left hand side in order to give the kitchen and those bedrooms on the upper level an exterior window it has to be flipped in order to allow for that window access so that's the reason why it's it's not three identical in a row I think those are the changes that uh have been Incorporated so yeah we can stand for any questions uh I will let me just briefly also point out two items so one item it's in the council packet it's in the resolution and it was discussed and recommended by the Planning Commission but I just want to submit to your for your consideration so if you're looking at the resolution it has a further it begins with further therefore it be resolved and I would draw your attention to item number two where it lists the number of trees that are required based on the square footage if you see that uh one of them is the very first listed is one over the story tree so that'd be one per lot what the planning commission's recommendation is and there's a a site plan in here trying to find that now the site plan the of those two trees the Planning Commission was recommending to put them in between the asphalt my concern is if we want to do that we certainly can I'm not convinced that's going to be optimal though because in my conversations with El utilities they what they want to do is the the overhead line runs east to west in the rear of the property oh and they're going to want to come down either the side wrap around to the front and come up the middle the other side or most likely they're going to come right down the middle and so I don't want to put those two trees smack on top of a roughly a 48 inch power line so just what I guess what I'm looking I'm not opposed to the tree I just I I would think give some flexibility on on the the ideal placement of where those trees would go oh and then one of thing I would uh draw attention is the the the rightaway which uh John brought up so the I I I do have concern over that I'm not opposed to the RightWay I think that's needed for the Redevelopment of this area what I I one of the things that that I'm always uh seeking as part of these conversations in this Redevelopment is reasonableness and fairness and one of the things that I've gleaned from residents of the Old Village they have a high concern in in the feedback I received and I think even some of you have received the feedback in last summer uh of eminent domain gets floated around City confiscation taking a property etc etc so one of the things with that sentiment out there I I as the old village gets rezoned it's going to right now it's all zoned Ro it's going to have to be rezoned to gm3 or something else and I'm not sure that it's reasonable if the city's intent is to to have right away to to achieve the RightWay need for all the the areas of the blocks by uh the developer concession I I I have a concern on that so that's why I try to come up with a very reasonable justifiable number that I'm looking for for that right of we uh and that I think it was highlighted or at least included in the packet it was in your yeah your uh critical issues I guess I yeah I guess I have some questions on that um I don't see that so this property the other properties will certainly benefit especially the ones long Robinson um all the way across benefit from this but this property I to me it I don't see a benefit there whatsoever for this this Alleyway this right away and I I and to me I also kind of wonder why we wouldn't um in getting that since the city wants that and I think it's a good idea to have it for the whole block why we wouldn't have some sort of a um value to that and reimbursed for that so so T typically typically we're not buying right away from developers so this would be POS I would um we negotiated with them for that right away I mean today this property doesn't have to give up that right away so that's why I'm I'm wondering what why why why why we don't think that has some my only question to that is is how did we come up with that value um in the packet how did we come up with 9985 was from the straight math yeah so the I was trying to come up with something just fair reasonable Equitable so if I uh if the fair market value is approximately 150,000 of the entire roughly half acre okay and the amount of the RightWay being sought by the city percentages in there 6 point something per I just simply took 6 point whatever percent of the total footage is how I with that just shy of $10,000 how much did you you got a bit of a deal on one of those lots right for sure I know about the first one but the second one that you recently received that was well my argue below market value price that you got that laot for from the city correct that one was a price of 30 30 30,000 roughly 36 is what we I think what we paid for it yeah yeah what we paid that was by law yeah so which which in in a sense means the other parcel your parcel I paid well above that yeah and well oh yeah yeah noidea and then I had to pay but I had to do improvements or I should say uh tear down of the house that was on there but then since acquiring both properties we have done improvements even to the the property we purchased from the city such as uh there were multiple trees in there and having to take those uh out and there was a sidewalk in there that we've had to have removed so my point is it contributes to the post sale value of the property and then obviously two Parcels a larger space is valued more due to assemblage than a single parcel is again I would reiterate I'm not opposed to the whether it be 12T or 20 foot right away it's just something that to be reasonable yeah so I just want to make sure the council's aware currently we have not historically paid for R of way um if you not saying we should or shouldn't have I'm just saying this is what we've historically done and then making Revel yeah when development or Redevelopment is happening we are not paying for RightWay historically like I said I'm not providing a we had Redevelopment um I don't if we had Redevelopment we've definitely had development though when we've gotten right away for um zero dollars right um as Fook through one of those developments at zre that was a huge amount of space what I'm getting at is is that so this may if you make a decision tonight not saying yay or nay I just want to make sure the council's aware that this will probably set precedent for anything in the future that we may have to pay for right away in the future if the decision is made tonight and not not providing any more opinion then here's what's going to happen so I just want to make sure everyone's aware if we didn't pay you for that land would you stop the entire project no okay no but I would also submit for the council's consideration again if the intent is to have the the alleyway through each of the six blocks that are down there consider forward how what's going to have to happen is it this council's intent and policy then going to move forward to try to acquire the right away from all of those private property owners in a manner of no concession right again this is a Redevelopment it's not a development it's not a PUD it's a so the Dynamics are slightly different I'm just throwing that out there for I also wouldn't say there's no concessions I would say the fact that like the city doesn't want 80 ft long on the one side even though it's part of the code that's a concession I would add that there's other things we've worked with you list in the planning commissions that are concessions so I think it might be a bit strong to say we're offering no concessions I think that we've worked well together I think this is a priority for the city I think it's a should be a prod for the whole um historic village that this area be redeveloped in a manner that has forethought and in my mind having this right away is part of that and I think it actually if you do get businesses on the the backside of this does increase the land value and having that those businesses aren't going to want to be there if there's no Alleyway or no access so by de facto it is benefiting and this is my opinion everyone's all their opinion this is my opinion on it um I think there's other ways we might be able to work with you too I think you know the tree situation is interesting I would I would ask we got to get the trees in the property I think it's important can we put the trees between the road and the sidewalk I think that came up and there was no there was no way to do that right oh I thought it came up at the point cuz a lot of cities put trees in that area it's a good alternative it doesn't eat up the space which you talking about in The Boulevard area yeah in the boulevard yeah did you say between the road and the sidewalk or between the sidewalk and the the road and the sidewalk so north of the property so that would oh the city yeah put your trees there so then you don't have to put your trees on the property they don't block your power I wouldn't okay so can it go there yes I wouldn't want to do that because one of the values of those balconies the river and you don't want to be obstructing the river but then second that's also a 10-ft easement there and so there will be utilities running along the front whether it be natural gas um and likely the uh cable I just wanted to throw it out as an option so that was there may be something where we can do a different type of tree just based on the yeah you know the things that are on there you have the um electrical poles that are there and then you have the you know you know maybe you want to put instead of having those things maybe you want to put some sort of aror vities that would basically block those town homes from that Alleyway that might be some sort of concession or some sort of change we could make um these are just options that I'm laying on here only because the code says here's what it is and not that was my next suggestion was instead of the shrubs maybe we just do something taller than a shrub but shorter than a treil on the far side to block where the windows aren't like I think there's things that we can work together on for that I I think that the city the council and the planning Comm and yourself have all been reasonable throughout this entire thing I don't think that requiring the easement for when that's needed whether that be 5 years from now or 50 years from now is a is a anything that we wouldn't expect from anyone else developing land in Dayton today so that's where I stand on it I don't think it's an imminent domain thing I think it literally is just this is going to be needed to develop this area properly and so it's better to have it and then it's there when we need it cuz it will I think in the long term benefit those homeowners and the property values of those homes having good access so businesses want to be there and we get good quality businesses on the main drag there so that's my thoughts I don't know what the end of the table what yall are thinking no I agree exactly yeah well then and that uh no and then to reiterate Mr Mayor to council member TR question no that would this would not it's not contingent upon the project any any other questions oh don't foret David there too oh I had a question but I don't know if you pointed the question I had there was a comment during the Planning Commission about using Hardy Board on the sighting versus vinyl sighting my question actually isn't I don't candidly I don't care from a visibility standpoint what it is I'm not worried about that my concern and um thank you assistant chief asra for being here is those buildings are really close together and it'll vinyl my understanding as minimal not working in fire as vinyl as fairly flammable where Hardy Board being a concrete material is not as flammable I'd like your opinion would it would it help my concern is west building catches on fire we wanted it we want to do everything we can make sure that the then East Building doesn't catch on fire so I'm more concerned between the buildings than the outsides of them if that would make a difference in how quickly that fire May jump from one building to the next being the close proximity mayor is member of the council uh obviously big concern is fire suppression with this building it's such a large building access uh from that point obviously for exterior Hardy Board cement board is going to be almost fire resistant brick is gonna be fire resistant stucco um you know we're going to be wanting to look at something like that for exterior at least on the adjacent sides or the joint sides where we have the exposures off to the west to the South uh obviously we have Road access north and east so that isn't a huge concern uh but really covering those exposures to the South and to the West not just one building to the next building but also looking at the neighbor's house correct a concern so I think from a siding perspective that's where and I think even the Planning Commission brought up unless there's a I can't remember who it was but someone had said unless there's a fire concern um so I think we should be considering a better from a safety perspective for both yourself insurance and the homeowners and those around there that on the Far West and in between the two buildings we for sure consider options that are more fire retardant than final so I don't know if that was in the as a decision we had to make but I think think it is something that we should be seriously thinking about because we already have a water issue in the when it comes to putting out fires in the historic village anyways du a lack of pressure and so this is going to be sprinkled right y that's a lot of money what you just talked about so mayor members of council too uh with the Minnesota 2020 residential code uh Town Homes like this would require sprinklers so Mr Mayor and uh uh council member TR the specific AG 13 is the residential fire suppression system that is required to be in here and it would be part of this design uh additionally I've been speaking with Mike from Metro West the building inspector and uh properties that are within 5T of the property line which these would be there is a fire resistant uh uh sheathing that is used rather than the traditional uh sheing that is used so that is that correct yeah exactly there and then the third I SMI for consideration is uh all the market research we've done looking at all of the developments uh that of a similar nature uh compact such as the one in inoa the the development in inoka such as the one in Rogers and uh Southern Dayton and Northern map Grove they're all approximately 8 ft apart it's very similar circumstance here and they're all vinyl siding I think as long as Fire's good with it I'm good I didn't know that the she are thank you for the information that's valuable to know just say add to that so within the city code for gm3 it does not allow for vinyl when this went through council at the concept plan Al the plan commission they were not opposed to vinyl I'm not opposed to it either I'm more worried about statement I'm not opposed to the appearance of it I'm more worried about the safety aspect of it so yeah I care if the appearance mayor own the council uh with the exterior uh I think we do need to look at the cement board or brick on the like I said the exposures obviously when it comes to the north side or east side doing vinyl on those sides I think is acceptable uh but potentially looking at a mix of both so so mror members of the council if brick were required that would put a crimp in this because grip uh brick is is cost prohibitive uh when you have multiple uh siding types that also uh creates different types of challenges when it comes to putting those together so I would not be in favor of a mixture like that so with most of the new homes built in Dayton are Hardy at least in a lot of the neighborhoods are hardboard in the front and vinyl on the sides so it's having a mix of them is I would say almost standard across all the developments that we see in the city I speak for because that's what my house is hardboard on the front and vinyl on the side and the back so and we didn't have a choice in it you had to have at least that so I I don't know I my my experience was not not the single family in the other neighborhoods it was the market resear was the more compact was the to Styles is where we saw the the vinyl because again the the objective is uh overall where uh the numbers have to work overall and so when you're in the the town home uh financials are obviously different than than different styles so I don't disagree that's something that you're worried about yeah he's meeting code so I mean I'm good with it okay then we just have the trees to figure out I think the two trees in the parking currently currently Co does not allow vinyl so I just want to make sure no no no he's not putting VL vinyl in yeah on to two sides he's not yeah he is he's put vinyl on the ENT everything but the front so I thought the planing commission kind hash this through and I just want to make sure everyone's on the same page not trying to put thank well so what are we deciding here because I thought the plan commission that hammered this out they had the only thing that when I listen to the plan the one thing I took away is unless there's a fire concern between the two buildings they're okay with vinyl but if there's a fire concern then they thought we should take that into account that's what I got from this it I a couple days ago there you go you're good um but if the sheathing is fire do we still have a concern can you repeat that please if the sheathing is is already underneath the vinyl is it required to be fireproof okay the sheathing is already fireproof that is true so I mean the sheating is is rated uh but as C member tro said uh it it does burn fast it is plastic it burns hot it burns fast there is a greater exposure to joining or adjacent buildings yeah uh we just need to take that into consideration how close the buildings be I don't know if it's in the plans I missed there are 8T between the buildings and again this matches the the multiple developments we saw the most I'm not worried about that I just want to know how how far we're talking cuz I think I I thought there was a development not seagull where the houses were like 12T apart by the time the fire department got there it was like three houses down because of the vinyl was so flammable that's I know that's just that isn't it happened a while back back I think it was 20 2015 was that Seagle fires that was that was wind driven as well obviously it was wind driven but I mean even the hostes probably 60 80 feet across the street were melted because vinyl Burns hot so nearly every house in dayon if if it goes up I don't disagree with that my point is these are significantly closer together they're 4T off the property line compared to most home so so to try to narrow this down a little bit like either way it's got to meet building code yep so the overall question is the city code for the gm3 district does not allow for vinyl the question is are you okay with superseding that and saying vinyl is okay I I I've never like the weigh in at some point yeah go ahead Dave go ahead yeah thanks I'm not really up there I'm just out here somewhere um so um I'm less concerned about the siding material only because these are fully sprinkler buildings and so that's that makes them different from every other single family home in in Dayton because we don't require that um unless the stru you know commercial structures are different and all of that but I I really think that's an important piece of the puzzle is that these are fully sprinklered buildings and that the fire has a low likelihood of spreading to engulfing the outside of the building and then spreading to the next so I personally I'm not concerned about the siding material and particularly which we just learned tonight that the sheathing material has to have a fire rating of some kind um so I I think that that's adequate for me and you know and the the vinyl versus Hardy Board of course I would if I was choosing for my own house it would be Hardy Board but I understand the economics of it and this it's close to picking colors which I don't do um so that's that's my that's my opinion around that one I know I'm not voting tonight um but as long as I'm talking I might as well get my other two things out here as far as the RightWay goes I think that if we were using eminent domain which we are not we would be required to pay for that right away and so I don't really have an issue with us um and I think by using the strategy that was in the P packet which was to go to a price reduction in the sale of the lot versus fee reductions which we've done for other kinds of buildings maybe we're setting less of a precedent and also that this is a Redevelopment versus doing something in a corn field where we where we ask for a road space and so on uh and lastly probably least important uh Eric is that uh I have several French doors on my house where only one one side is operable and so you can have a sliding screen on the other side that that work so that's something for you to you know pay for whatever you think it's worth uh thank you Mr Mayor and and uh council member fan uh yeah we had considered the the the one that was fixed we had also and get this uh the retractable screen that would pull from the side it's like5 to $2,000 $1,500 to $2,000 you get trash can for that yeah exactly exactly so whether reinvesting in retractable screen let's just put a balcony on there mhm so I think I agree with council member Fant on that as well so I think I'll motion that we approve it with the RightWay not paying for it and leaving the knowing that there's a fire rating and the sprinkler system leaving the siding concerns up to the um applicant we haven't figured out the trees yet I I think about it but that'd be my motion I don't know what we're going to with the trees oh okay so are you talking about the preliminary plat um I'm assuming and final yep those two trees you just got to find a better spot yeah so Mr Mayor members of the council that the challenge of the trees is we don't want to put them in the RightWay or in the future RightWay you have to cut them down in the future we don't want to put them obviously in the asphalt we don't want to put them in a position that's in the front uh easement and potentially blocking the Mississippi River so really the only options are between the or that small space between the asphalt and the RightWay which I think might be the end up where it be ends up where it would or they would be uh potentially there is roughly I think 13 ft of space between sidewalk and building that's another good spot I think that that might be better for for Pine rather than over the story and then the uh the third would be where where they are but I guess I'm just requesting for flexibility I want to put them where they're going to be the best so could we allow the money that would be spent on trees to be give to the city to plant trees in the park across the street that Services the community including these residents I think the overhead associated with that would outweigh its its cost benefit um so the plank commissions intent in the recommendation so the the code requires four trees and the plank commissions recommendations four trees and at least two two of those whether it's two additional trees or two out of those four um over story trees be planted in the parking lot Island so the idea is is you're providing some shade in the backyard if it doesn't work for utility purposes then it doesn't make any sense to have those two extra trees otherwise those two trees can be pushed between the parking lot and the alleyway um El purpose you might have the same problem so we can't take tree dedication money and put them in the park um I would you can do what we can but it may be cost prohibitive to do so okay and it may deter the thing that we're looking to do anyways is we're trying to keep the riverv view and then you put the two right across the street in the park across the street not right across the street to be clear change to Oak View inent the intent of those two trees is provide shade in backyard yeah but I think with the util I don't think it makes sense to plant a shade tree over the top of a utility line either so you could change the type of tree that you're looking for to some sort of ornamental tree or something okay so then i' I'd motion for the trees on top of my other motion that we just have um larger than shrubs smaller than shade shs probably six foot tall our ritis along the uh where the shrubs were going to go in place of that um that run the length of the building wherever there are not Windows to block I guess that would be would you be okay with that as an alternative so just to make sure I'm following so no shade trees where the shrubs are we put Arbor vites like something 6 foot tall along the east side of the property along the rivers side no no this is along the side street there are a lot of Windows there it's my concern I'm not opposed to arties I love arties I just uh I I very much want it to work want shade to be where the cars are if I if I can get it to work I mean this is the challenges of having a compact site so um I I'm I'm hesitant to commit to arities I just have to look at it where the window placements are Etc at the same time I I want to allow for enough space between the building and uh roots and things like that but um I 100% commit to getting something good good I just don't know what that is going to look like at this point so what would you propose as a solution to the what do you want to do in your property then that's defined and not not Pie in the Sky I'll do the best I can I would say leave the the requirements for the the count there but grant me the flexibility for the placement of where they would be so those will be there I just don't know where they're going to be because it's dependent upon the utility placement I'm good with that I'm good with that that works perfect for me so we're going to leave the number at four yeah well and then there's 36 shrubs shrubs it's so we'll leave four trees 36 shrubs leave the number but leave the placement up to you you good with that everyone else good with that I'm good with that so the second paragraph well the first line in the second paragraph at least one overo tree shall be planted in each parking lot Island would be deleted that's deleted correct okay it would be ideal if we can make it work but there's other restrictions to the site that I'm willing to for and if it works they can always it only behooves them and their renters which I'm assuming you're going to rent maybe I'm wrong but I'm assuming you're going to R that's correct yeah so only behooves them to have Shady parking outside so I would guess they'd want that if they could and then I would also submit uh not just deleting the first line but deleting the entire paragraph because it deals with the shrubs too so having 36 shrubs in the front or the back might work but I would my recommendation would be again 36 not a problem but let me have the flexibility of it's the side the front the rear where it's going to I'm I'm okay with that but I want you in record saying you're not just going to plant a corner of shrubs with 36 model of shrubs in it that's correct perfect good then we're good he'd work with staff then placement then so you seconded it right I second it perfect so we have it's deleting the entire paragraph yeah we delete the entire par and we'll just we'll keep the number and we'll let you just choose where so I would recommend to the mayor and Council that we would put delete that whole paragraph and we would say applicant work with work with City staff that that works great Perfect all right so again this is for PL the motion preim final it's both yeah yep well or you going to do all them all separate we all separate that's fine doesn't matter to me I'm by motioning all three of them unless three votes I'm I mean I think it's going to change wasn't there also the site plan preliminary final resolution yeah okay okay so um Everybody clear on what the motion is and that was and thank you David for your input right Scott yeah the sprinkler thing make makes a lot of sense yeah it does I still have comments on that though what as far as like sprinkling like if I may um I I I guess I would would have to agree with the comments made from planning that it if it is a fire issue that we should do something and I agree with with Chief Kevin that we should do something because understanding the system that's down there and the redundancy in it like there's not a lot there and fire equals time and if I don't have that time to protect it um it's it's it's going to go anyway so there's there's nothing there to protect them I have 1,000 gallons of water in in the well system and if I have multiple heads popping off because you know there's a big fire in there I don't have that redundancy to build into my trucks that I can pull from those hydrants so I'm supplying trying to supply water I don't have that time what does buy me time is the Hardy Board and the rated sheathing behind it so that's I just would land on that that in order for us to build redundancy into our already tapped Out systems that that would be a smarter idea just me I agree with you I just don't I would encourage you to consider it for the safety of not only people that live there but the firefighters have to come in case that happens and the community around you but I think I don't think we based on the fact that there's a fire retardant underneath there and the sprinkler system I don't think we need to mandate it in this particular case but I don't disagree with what you're saying but I just you know yep again yeah yep I uh Mr I absolutely appreciate that and we haven't ruled it out yeah it's if we can get the numbers to work yeah AB safety is is a huge concern and if we can get it to work absolutely so it' be a triple I'm just trying to not to create any more gaps anywhere else in the system just you know if I can minimize something just by simply changing one side or two sides of two buildings to meet some more needs like it makes more sense to me than rather just let it fly so appreciate that any more discussion so we got a motion a second Mr Mayor if I could just clarify so the motion is to approve both the ordinance Amendment for the rezoning and the preim ring final PL and site plan removing the second paragraph and item two so it's still requiring four trees and 36 shrubs yeah no requirement for location that's approval person working with City staff Y and then also allowing the right away at no cost to City w there yeah I mean that's not really I just want to make sure we're and then allowing vinyl which is not currently with C but yeah Blow by Co but is being allowed in this guess I would prefer they be split so I could make you know actionable votes on all three versus just well we have two we can we can break them up yeah we can break them up if mon that's fine okay so break them up Mr May if I might add is there a requirement then to for a reduction of the length do that also need to be specified L of the length of the Dolan so 66 no so I mean essentially what what uh I think that's written in the resolution I don't see where it is but it the yeah item number four the building footprint is accept 88 minus 14 85 ft minus the yeah so could be Frontage because it would taken away the 10 ft of oh okay because of that you're saying it's still the math Works yes got it okay yep got it I'll shake my clear as M quick Ma you want to separate these out okay so well this this this motion is just on then the resolution 10 10224 prary preliminary final plat and say plan are we good with that yeah so given those amendments um all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no um so Travis did you want these broken out yes so they are broken out okay so you're saying no now yeah okay so then it's three to one on that one oh we could have okay that was my question we could have motion and broken out but right okay it was broken out okay so then we have another uh ordinance 2024 d was six and a motion a second on that so that's the resoning I'll make the motion to approve it I'll second okay any discussion on that all in favor say hi hi all those oppos say no Comm carries four to zero all right thank you it you good to go thank you Mr Mayor members of the council staff I sincerely appreciate the feedback we look forward to continuing to work with this body City staff uh residents of the community to again make this the most successful uh because we do understand that this is going to St the tone I think uh the comment was somebody made the comment in the Eda meeting a couple days ago and it is sets the tone for for the future and we want it to be uh as successful as possible for everybody so again thank you so much thank you thank you sir IEM I Zigler thank you uh this is approval of resolution 11-24 uh prelimary final plant for Ziggler uh date and addition as well as an amendment to a conditional use permit for open rental lot uh the property is located at 18151 Territorial Road and 18171 territorial uh this project has been to the council a few times so the West property is Ziggler rental equipment so they rent out uh predominantly construction equipment uh the East property is Ziggler truck sale so they are a a showroom for electric trucks uh what the applicant would like to do is to combine these two properties into one and to amend the conditional use permit to allow um outdoor storage for the rental business on either I'm going to call it either property because now there'll be just one property so it'll allow more efficient us of the space for their business um when this went to the Planning Commission there was a discussion of um requiring screening along the back portion of the uh the Ziggler Truck Sales uh kind of the as this photo shows is that there there's a lot of visibility from Dayton Parkway uh the Planning Commission did recommend approval with the projects um but did request that there be a or suggest that there'd be an outdoor display area in the corner as well as uh trees that are planted be kind of in between the um the display area and trying to hide the outdoor storage area behind the building here uh since the pl commission meeting the applicant did re uh submit a revised Landscaping plan um this area would be the um the I call the outdoor I don't want to call the outdoor showroom but some essentially some place to park a nice shiny vehicle um and then there would be planted arbores two rows of AR Arbor VES in between a a fence line in the outdoor sh outdoor storage area and I believe the applicant is online on Zoom possibly their name uh wait does anybody have any questions for staff we go Nothing questions for staff not for staff um questions of I just have a yeah I just have an overall I guess would say concern I I think overall I don't have a problem with this my concern comes is when we approved the property to the east it was made clear that these properties would be run independent and that you wouldn't have storage from the property in the west the property in the East and property in the East would be electronic vehicle sale electric vehicle sales and probably the on the right on the the West would be the um current stuff and that they wouldn't have that flow over um minus change is now is they're going to use the property on the East to store stuff and the property on the west correct and so I just we approve that knowing that and that was part of my decision to approve it and so I don't know if this was the ultimate end goal of Zigler I don't want to think that that's the case but it kind of feels that way from the outside of like we'll just step this into exactly what we want which is we want to do this but we know we won't get it approved all at once so we'll do it one step at a time and get it done and that that um I don't think it was done in sincerely but it just so the applicant knows it comes off to me personally it comes off a bit that way and I have a problem with that and so um I think their designs look nice I'm excited that you know both buildings are there and they're a great part of the community but I am not a fan of of us having to prove the previous property East knowing that we didn't want this exact thing to happen so I will be voting no on this but that'd be more my comment Dave do you have anything you want to add um well no I would just Echo um what you were saying it it feels odd to me that it was such a short time ago that we approved this cup uh with limited to no outside display area and now it's kind of all all that and it and it it does you know I I certainly supportive of Ziggler and and want them to succeed and you know so I don't I don't think I would vote no on this but I don't like this and um you know this as an amendment and I don't know the you know the technicalities of it it almost feels to me like it should be a new cop and not an amendment to one we just passed yeah is while we try to get them on anybody else have anything I guess I would Echo what what uh Matt and David aren't saying too is that it does feel like it was such a short time ago that we gave them you know the ability to do this on the we call it the East West property but now they're asking for it on the East property does feel a little bit bait and switch hi I'm Terry Draper I'm with Ziggler uh caterpillar 901 West 94 Street Bloomington and uh and I've been at uh all of your meetings here and you're right we were there asking to turn this into our electric uh Truck Sales place and and we did and in the meantime um well I mean it's actually a good problem to have and you if you've driven by there you probably see it we have uh the uh the Dayton rental property or rental store for us has done just a tremendous business a tremendous business for us and and we're not looking to run that business out of that other location we're just asking that we will be able to store that that building the old gear ties building there uh the front half of it the North half is our truck showroom and our and our truck sales department and stuff like that the back half of that building is empty we have not used it for anything we have uh it's like again like I say if you drive by there you see our yard is it's quite heavy with equipment and uh and because we're having such a terrible time with lead times getting lift equipment which is our big thing we uh we buy it by the truck load and we need a place to put it we're actually just we want to get it inside that building it's not that we're going to fill that backyard up with with equipment or you know it I know that I get hung up on this term storage right we're not a we're not a City cargo storage yard right this is this isn't in our mind this isn't storage this is our yard this is what people see we're going to fence this place off it's going to be kept separate from the front truck uh entrance of it there will be a fence across the back of that building tying into the existing Dayton rental facility uh the trees will be in the back there to for you know blocking the view or or whatever folks want um and uh yeah that's we're not trying to pull it all over anybody's eyes we're growing and we need room and uh we actually looked at purchasing the land to the west of us uh one of the fellas wanted to sell the other one didn't that deal kind of fell through so yeah we're kind of asking to get this rezoned so we can at least put our equipment in that building back there and yeah maybe some larger stuff parked out back but honestly it's not going to be that much cuz that's still first and foremost is our electric truck uh place up front which hasn't looked like it's done very much because if you follow the news you probably see the electric truck we picked had some trouble they started I don't know starting on fire all by themselves or something so our entire inventory went back to the dealership we haven't got or to the manufacturer supposedly it's on its way back from from uh Texas up to Minnesota here again and we're going to try it again so that's if that if that helps alleviate anybody's concerns or at least you know where we're at okay I an issue with it yeah I don't have an issue with it I I to me you know the planing commission wanted more screening um I I my guess is and it sound like they they things have changed a little bit where they need that but so why is it an amendment not just a an additional cup done on this property then it's easier it's just easier I mean it ends up e the the alternative would be to revoke the original conditional use permit and then adopt a new conditional use permit so it' be two different actions yeah okay all right I'll make a motion to approve it SC uh and I will second it any more discussion all those in favor say I I I I all those opposed say no no motion carries three to one all right thank you thank you item J this yeah item J this one was very confusing to me we have item J the next last one uh so this is approval of resolution 1324 to deny a conditional use permit for Driven Auto Sales at 1 18078 Territorial Road um this is right across the street from Ziggler uh this is an existing business that's been there since 2008 as a auto repair business so uh the applicant purchases salvaged Vehicles repairs them at this location or purchases them through a third party repairs them on at this location sells it through a different third party um at a a dealership dealership else outside of Dayton with the applicant is is wanting to do is to obtain a state uh Minnesota dealership license so that he can buy his own Vehicles fix them on site but still intends to sell them offsite outside of Dayton uh with a conditional use permit the way it fits it's still it's a conditional use permit for Auto Sales uh whether he intends to sell vehicles on site or not he would be allowed to do that um when this went to planing commission the commission had some concerns about the amount of outdoor storage of um vehic vehicles uh this property has three different tenet so it's a drake construction there's Direct Auto Sales and then then your your bu driven um the property the building is oh yeah the property has a conditional use permit from 1993 um I believe the West prop one of the tenants was for carpet sales other one I believe was for auto repair um they both allow outdoor storage behind the building so if the concern is the amount of out door storage that that is already allowed within that fenced area so uh the applicant was not attend not able to attend the Planning Commission meeting due to a medical emergency so I wanted to make sure he had an opportunity to address any questions that the council would have so uh once again the plan commission's recommendation as well as the eda's recommendation was to is to deny the cup can you state your name and Le wov address 18078 territorial that's the business address um so right off the bat the the staff recommended approval of the denial correct okay um and I didn't see any so was that findings based on the Planning Commission and Ed's recommendations okay um so so the cup there's already a car sales on on the property right yeah there is next door to me so how is how do it get there no no history probably brought that in right okay right we don't know I I don't know I I know I I don't know how long I believe it's if memory is correct it's been licensed by the state since 2012 if I remember correctly um when if I remember correctly so every every so many years the dealerships have to renew their license and it requires a sign off by the city we did sign off on that um I don't remember what year it was but it wasn't too long ago so the cup ties to the property cor it's already Auto Sales on the property so how does this how does what does the cup fix why is this not iup I guess is my question well I'm not I'm not too worried about that I guess my concern is is that we're basically so this cup would allow how many sales the sales are not the sales I mean I don't do sales I Sub sub it out I just uh need a license basically because the state has different rules now to buy uh used cars and inspect them you has to be under my name to best inspection I cannot go through a third party to do so right but the cup is for sales correct so if there's already sales on the property how does this cup limit those sales um so the the cup that's existing is is spec specific to the middle tenant not necessarily the see this is where I get confused the cup is tied to the property so everybody there could die tomorrow somebody else could come in and that cup still applies um so walk me through how this makes any sense okay the cup from whatever it was or the existing cardial ship is tied to a specific address which is not the applicants so that's the so that remember this building has three different tenants they have three different addresses three different addresses okay but it's tied to the property right not the address it is TI to the property it's basically one property a c is tied to the property ID that's my understanding okay there only one p and I do have a permission from the own the Drake construction yep I get all that I'm trying to figure out technically why this isn't why this is we need to vote already has a cup in the property to allow this happen I don't understand what we're doing sure so the C is for the property ID that is the whole property all three tenants and anybody else who takes it over tomorrow yeah so I'm trying to think of if you know let's say there were 10 different tenants yeah um you know we and you know forget about the car dealership so if it was a you know cup iup for specific use at a specific tenant you know we would tie it to however you would want the council would like to tie it to whether it's that address or specific portion of the property you know it doesn't have to be the entire property I that by definition see P were tied to a property yes I me yeah mayor members of the counil typically it's tied to the legal description not the P the PID is not typically the the official description of the property so the legal description of the property correct so if there's one parcel with one legal description unless the the approved cup says that portion of whatever the legal description is it would apply app to the whole property so not having seen the existing cup it's hard to say that it applies to only a portion of the property so it's the safest assumption is that it applies to the entire parcel well it's a new cup that's well no she's saying the existing one that exist there already ask question I could care less about the existing C I don't want to money the waters with that but we're going to approve a c for this whole property or we can do it for just a portion of the property is what you're saying correct no if you H if you have a legal description yeah of the area that you want to limit the conditional use to technically you can do that it's not usually the cleanest way to do things now now how you record that how would you record that it's recorded against the entire parcel but because of the legal descriptions you would have the legal description of the whole parcel and then carve out the part that the cup would apply to it's not standard but it it is technically possible okay so if your question was about why do you need a new cup when there's already a cup on the parcel for this for this type of use no my question was was why couldn't anybody on the property use this cup and anybody in the future use this cup the one that you're approving tonight right or asking as the one you're considering tonight yes so let's say you approved it for the the the the east east third and tomorrow the dealership decided going to rent the East rent the East still there right right so okay it runs with the land just like you say um the the and then so then it getss into what's what's so what would be the downside of this cup does it does it you were saying that um somebody could just at that point start selling cars there yes um and there's no other than figuring what what the state says um does the cup limit the number of Sal so if if the let's let's say if the council wants to take care of the applicant and what what he's doing is you're okay with but you're not necessarily okay with what the next owner might do with the next tenant yeah you and I guess my suggestion the state requires for a car license you have to have a minimum of five parking stalls right um You can improve the CP with five parking stalls that's going to prevent someone from coming in and turning the whole property into car lot um but you can also have no limitations and that would allow a future tenant to use the whole property as a Auto for Auto sales is there a way to make this an I um no and that's because of the State uh no that's because the city code allows it as a conditional use permit not not an interm oh so you you would have to amend the city code that's because all right I would rather have it P and I in the city code but then it allows us the control if you will over it in the future not having it turn to something up and I remember I think this came up at the and I remember there was a reason I just didn't remember what it was um so how would this cup change what's going on there today um you wouldn't it would still look the same it would still look the same still operate the same except he'd get keep more money for his training y what's the what's the worst that could happen that somebody starts selling cars out of that lot I don't think drag ruction will allow that because he's pretty strict on his rules and the guys that the concern is if he sells the property to someone else and that isn't strict on the rules what's the worst that could happen I got it it's a good point but yeah I the worst would be mean Auto Sales I get the have another Auto Sales lot yeah and it's right next TOA and so he's already it's next to adessa and he's already the the the east or the West lot is already selling cars yes middle personal yeah or middle tenant and you're going to sell cars under the name of Driven Auto Sales or Driven Auto Driven Auto Sales but I'm not planning to sell much Ian are you selling cars today no so if I Google it I won't find reviews of your car sales I do have cars in a lot okay I do have six cars sitting pretty much in my parking spots okay and I don't have none of them for sale pretty much because it's just uh it's like a work in progress I'll park it out the for the car that have fixed something so I used the park part parking spice up front so I was at the plan commission meeting and I watched the Eda meeting and it seemed like the focus was on things that didn't seem to have to do with the cop I know the Eda was concerned about um plutons yep um the at the planing commission was concerned about all the cars in the backyard which is apparently being hand will be in another cup and that CP is still being complied with yeah so the the 1993 conditional use permit limited storage within a fenced area and you can kind of see it on the aerial photograph where the fence is so yellow is behind that's where the storage for us this is this is the applicants area this is the middle tenant that is um Direct Auto Sales and like those cars up front basically that's what I was telling uh they do sit up front the cars always are up front on a spots but it's just kind of a project I only ask I only ask a question because I was using Google maps to view the area and look around and see what's around it just for my own reference and there's a pin there that says there's an operational business there today under the name of driven AO including two Google reviews which to me tells me that there's already sales going on driven have a permission to sell cars so I understand I say no permission for it I'm not arguing that piece of bit I'm saying based on what I see just by I happen to come if you because it shows pins have the driven that's why I asked the question I trust him I I have to trust him I'm I'm just saying that's why I asked the question Driven Auto Sale has been there for 10 years okay it's just the name of the business that it's been there and I was at the shop since 2008 okay so perfect that helps thank you everything else is in compliance with it it is I mean there there's some concern you know so both of these businesses deal with salvage vehicles there's a concern that you know when you have you know these cars have been in traumatic accidents yeah are they leaking fluids I don't know so um the staff's intent once the snow is gone is to go out there and do an inspection we would do that whether there's the cup there or not but this C even if we don't prove the CP it's not going to change the fact those vehicles are coming in today it's not only that's going to change is how much money get to put in his pocket at the end of the day but if we deny this we're basically taking margin out of his pocket because I'm having a hard time uh so I think I think I so to be clear I came in with a different approach to this I appreciate the conversation um I may have been swung to saying this may be okay I do like the idea of putting a maximum number of parking spots so we can limit we don't have 75 cars for sale out front not that they'd fit but you know what I mean to five parking Spots I'm okay if I think if we did that in some way to limit the amount of vehicles that would be up for sale I don't know that's where I'm I just CU I feel like if we do nothing it's not going to change anything I don't like K I don't like the way it is now but yeah of denying this isn't going to change that it's not going to drive anything forward it's just going to hurt this gentleman and that doesn't seem seems like government get in the way not government helping in my opinion that's that's why yeah I don't know we definitely got to address the contam thing though I agree 100% because I don't believe for a second that these cars are don't have fluids in them but the cup doesn't has nothing to do with that from what I can see does the cup require that there that when we approve this cup will it require that there's no environmental contaminantes leaking into soil because of it as part of the cup not as part of it but I'm just can we add that as part of it we can add it okay yeah so then that would stop so I would I would suggest as a because I share that concern around around the hazardous waste and henan County does the Hazardous Waste enforcement in hopan county and that's who you have to get your license from so I don't know how we leave that into the language here but it we should say something to the effect that um if whatever level of hazardous waste license is required for this business that we we get some confirmation that that's in place and they complying with it Dave are you out on the deck around ter or something yeah I I wish I could turn my camera on and share my view no thanks CU I've been there you got Birds where we got [Laughter] snow all right but I I've kind of changed my feeling around this too I know I shared some concerns at the Eda meeting um you know around what happens to this bus business and to a future tenant or owner you know what does that look like then um and I would have rather had it be an I but it doesn't sound like we have that option and um so I think with the limitations of the site I you know I think it's it's probably okay but I would want to ensure that you know the the rules that kipen County enforces that those are being complied with and that would include having the appropriate hazardous waste generator license which would probably be small quantity in this case but whatever it is is that that we should ensure that that that's happening and that um that's done inin County does the um does the Hazardous Waste visits you know they do unannounced visits at businesses like this and U you know and and they're they're they don't fool around I went through that with the hospitals that when they come to see you that's not a good day usually so you better you better make sure youve got all your records uh that you can what you collected by quantity and what you did with it after you know that it didn't go in a barrel into the river or something that you need to have kind of that Cradle to grave sort of trail on all hazardous waste and I really want to make sure that that's happening so think unless there's more thank you David that's helpful unless there's more conversation I'd like to motion a denial of the denial correct is that the correct way to approve it just amend the resolution okay yeah so I guess I would suggest it's a recommendation to approve the conditional use permit and we'll change the conditions yes okay so I'd like to do that with the caveat that all uh henen County hazardous waste material handling are fulfilled Per County regulations we have our own I mean Kevin you can go and inspect this place too right which I we absolutely should I agree that's that's part of the inspection program that we work on currently is to at some point get through all the businesses in dating um and then from that point continue probably by yearly uh inspections after that that's what we had every year pretty much the uh one of the guys come in and inspect the shop for the light fire ignation and everything else I just want to say thank you for the conversation did you uh and we do have a oil truck stop by every like three six months to pick up up the oils we have like a m oil JS the we have a oil to uh put away we have a truck to come and pick it up so okay uh did did your motion includ limited five oh and limiting to five parking spots specific to vehicles that are for sale correct yes sir thank you for that that'd be my motion all right I need a second I'll second it uh um and Mr Mayor just for clarity so on the resolution what this change is this is a motion for approval yep um under the findings this changes item number six and number seven where number six where it says the proposed use is not adequately screened um we're striking the word not that the proposed lot use is adequately screened and then on item seven where it says the proposed use will create a nuisance including but not limited to odor noise vibration visual pollution we're striking the word will so the proposed use will not create here we go uh talking about screening I thought there was just some ridiculous amount of trees required or yeah so if this were so this would be an example if this were a due project from scratch this is the number of trees and shrubs that would be required yeah we are not yeah we are not looking to that but this would be if that was all right just so that you're so so this 679 shrubs is not happening no no yeah there's no Landscaping doesn't even need to as part of the resolution it's more of an F I'm okay with that okay doesn't change my motion does it change your second no okay then we're good okay appreciate are we were you clear then on okay so we got a motion in a second any more discussion all those first say I I I'm okay with it um all those opposed say no if it comes back if hopen County gets on you it's over there's a lot of people I still have to go to the state and everybody else all right so we're three to one to approve the SE okay thank you thanks sir you know this probably should have been discussed but do we want um to limit the property description or we just going slap it on the property slapped on the property can we that little box we'll make one box for it okay is there anything on that matter that protects us cuz like I look at this overview and I like there's a crap ton of stuff sitting back there there is why I was asking about and I'm worried about having ourselves the same thing mon not big lake or Becker yeah the Becker fire incident something like that like there's I could see a deep rooted fire in one of those back cars there's no access to any of that stuff until the fire reaches you I don't just I don't think this guy is going to cause that I think that's why I was asking about the rest of it CU it's a well it's looks I think we can address that in the fire we we'll address that that's what I'm wondering is is could that be addressed separately May's never the council um that would be addressed in an actual fire inspection so go doing inspection not of just this tenant but the other three tenants on the same property uh making sure obviously we have proper fire lane egress into those into those areas uh we do have hydrants on territorial but getting as far back as you see almost the railroad tracks with that excess of uh cars and whatever may be back there uh that is part of the inspection is for us to go out you know actually take um photos of what is actually there document that and then that way we can be prepared if we have to respond to that scene at a later date okay all right sometime around in June right we're we're going as fast we can all right item [Music] K Quick Trip Yep this is a concept plan review for Quick Trip off of a Interstate 94 and Dayton Parkway the address will be on Maple Court so um last three projects have all been in the same neighborhood so this was uh last brought to the council in 2021 2022 for believe it was a concept and I can't remember if it was also prelimary plant resoning I think whole process it came pretty far um what the applicant is so once again this the project that's being presented to the council tonight is the same of as what was presented in 2021 it it's a communion store with a truck uh Park overnight truck parking as a component to it um so again as a this property has been vacant for you know the was it 2018 that The Interchange was completed um the council had recommended or had denied the project back in 20 believe it was January 2022 U it was a split vote some of the concerns that the count had was um that this property primarily benefited the motoring public on I94 um it would increase the uh the the amount of Emergency Services which is paid by Dayton taxpayers not necessarily the motors on 94 um there's also the several com comments that there was a higher and better use for this property than a communion store or gas station communion store uh since 2021 um it's still vacant uh from the property owner I'm told that there's been interest in an asphalt plant as well as some type of Industrial Development with outdoor storage uh so the overall question for the council is what is the highest best use for this property uh would a a gas station convenience store fit this you know what the applicant needs to know is kind of a flat yes or no whether or not to pursue to The Next Step which is preliminary plan does anybody want to jump in Dave sure I can I guess I can start um so this is the now this is the same project being presented actually with the same documentation and which includes saying that this is a preliminary plat improval um which I know it's not but it shouldn't say that but all of it I think just got pulled out and and put back in the packet and my concerns as they were before was that um that there is there was a vision for a higher use of this property that was why the city of Dayton invested as much as it did into that interchange and all of the Landscaping that went with it uh you know I I continue to want to honor that that that was that there was a better use for this area than than that I've no doubt it would be uh very successful as a truck stop we we kind of ensured that by the by the amount of money we put into that exit um but it's nothing has changed for me it's still being marketed as a truck stop if you look at any of the all of the signs around that property it still says potential truck stop so I don't know you know what level of effort has gone into into marketing this property for another use but that's not my that's not my deal um nothing has really changed for me and so my vote would still be no if you need a suggestion of another area Dayton to put a trip on I I've got some very very definite ideas on that I think I heard from everyone right yeah um so you know I think quick Trip's a great company and and uh so please don't take this personally I just don't think this is this is what we were looking for for that part of town I personally don't have an issue with this other than uh the the amount of truck spaces I would limit to 15 to 18 somewhere in that area similar to the uh one over on uh in Elo there um Quick Trick they run a a very clean shop uh I think this location for this thing next to the industrial area is it it fits in perfect uh all those industrial users are going to are going to be stopping here for sure um I don't see a problem with it I mean we've been waiting for the uh the king to come for with a better uh presentation for a couple of years and it hasn't happened so um why would you limit the trucks it just it it's less congest congested then I think it drive more congestion than You' had more people parking out on the streets and stuff at that point was my concern when we talked about the first time was like when we limited it but that we just end up filling the streets up so I still have a feeling like that still might be an issue but um again I agree with Scott though I think this is this is a good spot it serves the Ecommerce of that area very well um to the point that it doesn't serve the residents of Dayton well you can make the same argument for the truck to stop in Rogers yeah and I I don't I don't buy it so um again I have no problem with this other than the fact that I think you should have more beautification around the the pumps and stuff like that since we are calling it the the uh gem or the whatever you want to call it gate gateway to date it should have some of those beautification factors especially around just like the uh the um not maybe the diesel ones but definitely around the uh consumer pumps and stuff like that or on the brick the brick W canop yeah yep that kind of stuff that was an interesting conversation to Planning Commission I did I watched that and I was just like I don't care if you D really the beautification aspect of it I wasn't here the that's not quick Trip's problem so it's your fault yeah so but I still think that those aesthetic pieces should be included in in the the next uh presentation so um so I was probably looked at as a swing bat last time and I really had hoped that we would get another use here um it's like um there's a couple problems with the area one being it's in the middle of you know there samstone just to the Northeast um Rio I I don't know I I I think I'm at the point now where I'm accepting uh yeah I I have thoughts so I went back and looked at some of the major reasons I why it was looked at before one of which was not being the right place I would Echo that I think that it would be great to get something different here I just don't think we're going to get something different here candidly and I also don't think it's quick trip I think Quick Trip has a very clean shop great Donuts love going there but um I I so I think I think this spot makes sense I think it's normal next to an interstate to have a truck stop with the gas station right off the interstate um so I have no problem with that I think it makes sense the one ask I would have for you to consider and it won't change my vote one or the other is um it would be great if there was some electric vehicle charging here both because we have an electric truck sale right down the road now um but a lot of big companies from Pepsi Walmart FedEx JB Hunt are all putting orders in for electric semis so I think it's good to plan for that ahead of time and is somebody um who has travel cross country an electric vehicle it's nice to have them right off the interstate stop in get some good donuts and sit around for a little L charger so um if there's room for that I think it'd be a great addition and we don't have an electric vehicle charger in Dayton so it would be a first I think that'd be good as well um I know the second piece was safety and I did a bunch of research on that hasn't come up tonight so I'm not overly worried about unless someone in the audience must talk about it but I I yeah we can dig into that if we need to but I'm not overly concerned about it um I'm lucky enough to be related to somebody that that specializes um that their job is to deal with human trafficking issues and other things um and so if you want ideas of how to help overall reduce that I can give you a bunch of things she works with other state agencies as well to help with that I'm happy to share that with you or just her contact and she' be happy to contact with you as well but if that is a concern then um I think there's a lot of things in place that could help with that um so yeah so I'm I'm in favor I think it's a good plan I think there's opportunities for even more of those that's where I'm at I've said my piece I'll motion that we approve this so as a concept plan there's no formal well then there we go feedback action so I figur there was something there I think I think we're happy being in the community with the current location we have it's probably been man almost 18 months now I think there's a lot a lot of positive feedback on that particular location very busy all the time so that store does extremely well for being you know only you know 18 months in 16 periods in whatever it is so I think the feedback we've gotten from that particular area is is nothing but positive and I think we're I think I hope that we are perceived by you guys as a as a a benefit and to this community and pay taxes so we like that there was no car wash on this one was there uh there's probably not one sh on that plan though is there plan to put one in no I think generally speaking people get a car wash and get back on that's kind of the deal what there was showers proposed though wasn't there there are places where showers proposed yep Y and laundry too right I think so the ping yeah yeah is there opposition to Car Wash if you wanted to put one in probably not I think we can look at at adding one on the attaching it to the back of the building with there space up there in that corner I just have to figure out how to get car circulating around the back side of the building we can look into it absolutely I don't think there's opposition I just think they probably thought it's it's not the best area to for car wash but's no rooftops kind of around well up Parkway now you connect to 117 road that then goes to Res like people are going to go right past this to get to their homes and there's going to be four developments right there we've already heard from them mhm okay and we will hear from them again yes we will so and I I guess in talking on highest and best use of property value it's not like we're sucking up the entire um commercial node you guys have the other side of the freeway that can kind of develop for some different types of users on that side that's that both sides are still yours or is in that both and then you're going to help us on the North side Town yeah I think so perfect awesome thank you thank you thanks team thanks guys item L it's 85 or bus I got you covered I got you covered leave me mar Council um I have two projects tonight bull should be familiar to you uh the first one is what we've been calling the the Jagger Jordan ditch uh project it's located on River Road and I'll say North Central or Northwest part of the city and showing on the right on the the slide just shows the approximate location of the Ravine that we're looking at so just a quick background and this is a repeat of the last presentation so this Ravine has been identified for having excessive erosion on it um improvements are definitely warranted hanpen County did a project in 2023 that included the replacement of a ditch or sorry have a covert under the roadway with that project they did stabilize the portion immediately Downstream of the roadway but they didn't continue it down to the Mississippi River this project would extend that stabilization from their project uh closer to the river so uh Property Owners on both sides of the Ravine are certainly favorable uh for the project and and actually requesting the project as well so they're excited to see it um we did secure grant money on this from henen County for $332,000 in addition uh the Watershed has allotted $50,000 which is the maximum for this type of project um to go towards the improvements and just a note council did see this on January 9th and authorized the design at that time so just a quick graphic of the of the proposed improvements uh the project from the county again it was the short distance off of the roadway with this project carrying it down towards the Mississippi River so this is the same funding breakdown that was shared at the previous meeting we had an estimated project cost of $115,000 um those costs broken down as shown with the funding being the two sources that I mentioned and then the balance being the responsibility of the city of Dayton uh Council Direction at the last meeting was to limit the cost responsibility so in effort to do so um what we're proposing um is to Target the $85,000 as mentioned um so we we didn't necessarily alter the design or the bid itself however we did add a provision to control the scope after a ward without any adjustments to the unit prices so what that means is if the bids come in even at 70,000 or higher we can say haul less Rock onto the project and we'll just do the best we can with the rock that can be the rock is 70% of the so that's the um the biggest component of it so we have the provisions in there to allow for that so what we'll do is when we when the bids come in we'll see if we do have to reduce it and then we'll also monitor the engineering costs and the other contingencies and I will just note that both of those are are not contingency or the other costs and the contingency sorry U both of those are tracking less than what was originally thought I think the engineering were were probably around at least $6,000 less than we expected to be at this time and then the the other cost um I'll verify with the city but I expect them to be minimal um so what that would do is lower the city's responsibility down to that $3,000 Mark that's what we'd be looking for so with those uh conditions added um we recommend approval of the project and then authorization um one other quick note on this um because of the cost Thresh threshold being less than $175,000 we have the ability to do direct solicitation for quotes um we do recommend doing that um it saves some money for publication some timeline and a little bit of effort um and we can invite plenty of of contractors to get bids to do the work so rock is pretty fixed yeah there there shouldn't be a whole lot of variation between it that probably the low bid will be a reflection of who has the ability to fit it their schedule would be my guess so and then just a a note the the bids are due shoot April 16th I believe um so they'll be returned on the 23rd for for Council review um so you'd have another opportunity to um either stop the project or continue at that time for construction a motion we go all for bids I'll second any more discussion David anything you want to add um no I I did have a question that Jason answered I I don't think that we knew for sure on the grants the last time we discussed it and now it it say are secured so that's good news to me or maybe I missed it but at any rate that's good news to me um my other question would be I know I can't vote tonight and I'll ask more about that at another time but um this is this is in my neighborhood so would I need to abstain anyway I think you from it you have no there's no benefit directly to you it may be in your area but it's not any direct benefit to you and it's not a financial benefit to you either it's always personal decision then I don't I don't have any concerns about it okay can you see it from your balcony just kidding not the one not this one yeah not that one okay uh all in favor say I I I all the PO say no carries for to zero on it M um so this is the 2024 Mill and overlay project again not any significant new info to share just a reminder of the project location this includes 152nd Avenue which is a dead end Road off of Brockton Lane up in the Northwest part of the city as well as Thicket Lane North which is west of another Dead End Road West of laale Avenue uh just south of 1502 as shown so just the background this the pavement on both of these streets has been noted as poor condition and warranting improvements uh plans for the project were authorized in February we open excuse me we open bids on March 19th we did receive nine bids on the project um as noted in the council packets they came in I I'll even say significantly less than anticipated so there was a there was a big reduction in binous pricing from what we were told to expect um this spr spring so that was that was good news um and being binus is the essentially the entire cost on a project like this it it makes a big difference so um low bid was Omen Brothers for just over8 50,000 $158,000 um I think yeah I think we had like 200 and over 200,000 240,000 even on it um so our recommendation is to to Omen to proceed with that can I ask you a question yeah so the three lowest bids are very close and so the question I mean they're within three3 $4,000 of each other do we have experiences good or bad with either of those three that would make us say you know what we've worked with as Tech Corp making this up before and they did one of the best jobs I've ever seen so maybe it's worth the extra two I mean I'm only asking because they're that close in price and we're under budget is there a good reason for us to consider not going with Omen Brothers I looked at where they were at none of them are like they're all fairly local like it sound no I well I will say that we've had our experiences have been fine with all of all of the contractors on the list um um but actually by Statute we're required to go with L bid oh through the public biding process as least as long as they're demonstrated to be responsive right which they have been and it's actually very very difficult I'm not suggesting we would want to with any of these companies but it's very very difficult to not go with the L bit okay thank you right I'm going to make a motion to approve but I got one comment here and and this might be another discussion for something else uh Jason and I know this is not you and and I'm not pointing it right at you but even on the last one the engineering is way it HS 20% on this one better than 20% and 35% on the last one even with your $6,000 deduction um this would be in my opinion something I mean we spent a ton of money on engineering and something that should be possibly looked at this could be an easy in-house thing I actually asked this question to Zach a couple meetings ago I me with you weekly and the feedback I got and I don't dise that was my question we're spent a lot of money on engineering cost if we brought it in house and basically we'd had to you say four people we'd have to hire to fulfill to get the four to the different expertises that we get from going through stch so at minimum if not more cuz that was my we just hire someone they do all this but it sounds like it's such a wide of knowledge unless Zach you want to add some I miss but I had the same exact thought you did a few weeks back I I'm just a dumb milk farmer and I think Marty and I could figure out what to do on this project just need the equipment it's me so okay that's my two cents that's my two cents did you get a second I need a second I'll second oh okay that 30,000 isn't written in stone yet either right or is it for the engineering yeah um no it never might come in cheaper than that yeah I don't know of any that have gone over to be honest but um yeah it it's a it's a per your contract it's a I think is simple to figure out what you need on this deal I wish it was that simple I wish it was that simple it's kind of like buying hay if you got 10 elk you need this many bals it's simple I think this might have a lot more than there's a little more math involved Dave do you have any uh anything say here uh no I don't well I I share the concern about the engineering fees but I've asked about that4 to and you know I think it's something we continue to study uh you know at what point we do need to bring some engineering inhouse it doesn't sound like we're there yet but I think that's that's a fair ask um no my question around this is is that you know I believe may you haven't gotten to the ne the other one yet but the both of these project are coming in well under budget is there anything else we should be looking at to use pavement management money on this year um yeah I guess just on that note I had a discussion today with some of our staff about moving some of the other I'll say easier projects in in upcoming years in the pavement management plan that was recently um accepted um up to this year so basically doing a more extensive Seal Co project it's not big dollars but for that reason um because there was money allotted for it let's pull some of those forward and and do them now while the you know maybe the bidding environment is favorable um we actually could even look at doing additional similar projects to this if we want uh the other thought is one of the or two of the recommendations U one is zry Lane which will take coordination with uh Champlain which yeah it's probably too late to coordinate that for this year yet and another one is South Diamond Lake Road and we didn't know if that would be a good year to do that one with the work taking place with the county North sorry on River Road just as it might be used as a a detour so we didn't want to make that any more difficult than it might already be so but we're looking at the easy ones if you will to pull forward phone calls on around your all right thanks dve uh okay so we had a motion to Second any more discussion all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no approve four to zero item n Mar hour you want to recess do we think this is going to take 40 minutes this going to take a while this may take a while does anybody need a recess yeah I'll take a 5 minute okay we'll take a five minute recess all jazzed up we got to tone it down just this item's going to take 40 minutes or more so I want to make sure everyone got time to take a bath break are we taking a break yes that's true so you want me huh am I ready for this crazy e e e e e e e e and Marty have at it thank you very much mayor and Council um uh I wanted to present to you tonight um the park improvements 2024 program that we've been working on for a while um this has gone through several iterations uh with residents and neighborhood me in a couple of versions that we've worked through with the park commission and in um incorporate the changes that they've uh requested um what we're looking to try and do is get this uh out to bid um and start get uh the thing in uh construction this year um with the majority of the construction completed by the end of the year um what we found at the last Park commission Mee in was the c um that uh for this particular project was uh spiraling um it seemed to be very a lot of money so we asked uh for the park commission to uh identify what is really important for those uh for the elements in the park and prioritize those um so we could uh put those in as um additional items on the uh on the bid um so there would be a base bid and then there' be other items in there that we could incorporate into the project or leave out the project so that was what um was discussed um the part uh at the neighborhood meeting uh there was a lot of discussion um about what the uh neighborhood wanted to see in there um and that was presented to the uh Park commission for them to make their decisions from um at that meeting the neighborhood meeting uh there's a lot of discussion about what was required um for playground what kind of elements what kind of age group um those kind of things those were incorporated into that um and those have been passed on to um a um a playground equipment company who had currently pulling a design together um they're pulling a design together now so we can apply for some grant funding through helin County um that Grant can be up to $50,000 which is what we got for um uh Hayden Hills part um the numbers that we have in here don't incorporate any grant funding or anything like that these are just uh raw numbers that Paul pulled together and then I talked with Zack after the meeting to see where there were other opportunities uh for funding this from U we did talk at the park commission about using some uh funding for uh Trails coming out the trail funding which wasn't part of the initial discussion um when we started this project um we didn't uh it was four different areas of property that weren't you know it was going to be pulled together to make a nearly 14 acre uh Park um when it was put in the CIP it was put in as two different projects one for 2024 one for 2026 um since we did the master plan on area 21 um it's was realized that most of the the development was going to be in the north part of the the project um where you know that's where the playground is going to be that's where the pickle ball is going to be that's where all of those um elements are going to be um so one of the things that we want to consider is moving some of that 2026 funding into the 2024 project um and I think um while we have the plans out here um they're not set and they're not set in stone at this this time um there is still time for moving around and um and I want to try and get some firm prices so we can make the decisions as to what to include and what not to include um so other than um the staff report which has got a lot of information in there I pulled together some some slides and to just see how the uh neighborhood park came through uh development um there were two um uh initial Concepts that were presented um in incorporating number of different elements double pickle ball shelters full basketball court um back stops double tennis court informal soccer um um we got some feedback on these these were presented to the uh Park commission and to the neighborhood um at the neighborhood meeting um the second concept uh was a little different um with the Ballfield in a different location a community garden plot um there was some talk about a dog a dog park as well which both of those were you know not very well received and there was discussion about double tennis courts or double pickle ball um half basketball court or full basketball court but those were the the things that were discussed um and the food truck parking was another Innovation on this park that some people liked and others didn't like um so those were the initial designs um from there we trimmed them down this is a resident feedback sheet I don't know if you can read that very well um there was a lot of support for um the full basketball court um older stuff for kids in playground at sand volleyball pickle ball over tennis combined pickle ball and Tennis there was you know a little bit of support for that um max maximize playground space preference of food Tru parking had a good you know response dog park not desired was had a very strong response no community garden like I said um so these all these comments Paul took and um you know revised the design again and park commission me U meeting had some this was how they came out um with their priorities it was uh basketball full court with four goals two pickle ball pickle ball courts a sand volleyball court a ball field and tennis courts were out on the fit there um these will be altern alternates to the baseball uh the base bid um items which the base bid items will include the playground um Landscaping um all the the site work grading and all that kind of stuff just to be clear the Parks Commission also mentioned that they were given the cost of the roundabout for the food truck although it would be cool they figured it made more sense to have ample parking there without the round of them correct it's not in the slide but yeah and that was based on feedback from the meeting and the people that have come multiple to different meetings at different times so I believe this is the last plan the pole pulled together without the um uh parking for the uh uh the food trucks um it shows um the double pickle ball court uh the full basketball court sand volleyball um phase one parking extended to 21 stalls um and then um on the the southern half there was some discussion about you what needs to go in there um and there's some native Prairie mix is going in there there was some discussion about how that would be developed there um they wanted a natural element in the park so that area there and it's got some nice trees in there and the informal uh Ballfield um now there was some discussion about whether cdaa would like to use this uh Park and John did mention that uh cdaa would be interested in using this neighborhood park uh for uh practice I believe yeah yeah for games for say between ages seven and n and 10 so uh there won't be games till 10 p.m. at night no yeah yeah and so that would be developed as you the second part of this um project um in and then uh another feature that's a cheaper Fe feature would be a disc golf course potentially on the uh in in between the Prairie um so Mar can you go back to that sure so without the alternates what's up there besides a play area yeah your play area um that's it pretty much play area and trees um so Trails but the alter gets it down to the budget sorry without the yeah that was the problem because there wasn't much left to put much in there after you got you the base bed so what is eating up that I guess I one of the problems I have with is an in information flood here I processing all this stuff was a lot yeah I know it's a lot I was trying to trim it down as well to make it more digestible so just the the the playground and the seating area the estimate is 265,000 bucks so got to be that's that's an estimate now that these are these are all no different than Jason putting hopefully estimates are way high like they could be I mean I don't know no but again try to make sure that we keep us in perspective as well sorry mayor and Council we want to yeah um the bids are our best guess for what we think's going to cost we don't yeah the estimates we have no clue what actually is going to be bid on these I get all that but I mean to to me estimate should be within an order of magnitude you would think so but if you look we can just use the same example tonight with the mill and overlay project we have guesstimated or estimated about $296,000 for that project it came in at 158 I mean we weren't even really if you look at the cost that weren't close we're 100 Grand off I mean that's significant dollar the problem is told between and that's I mean so and and we're using our best guest and and best are extremely fat they they might be I but they might not be I don't know I mean okay that's kind of the the idea is we don't have a clue and yeah the way to do it for alternates is okay we need this at least and then we want provide as much the alternates as possible that we could fit in the budget or that council's comfortable with doing I just we it just seems like when we go down this road of alternates we end up whatever I think alternates gives us a little bit of that gives us the flexibility to add things in or leave things out you know and keep the budget flowing and also is if we go through and um with you know the contingency is looking good we can drop some of that contingency funding and maybe add a different element in there as well as the project progresses so it gives us that flexibility to do that so some of the other problems I have just overall is I I don't I it almost seems like a lot of the detail would would matter to me for I see $120,000 for landscaping what does that mean what what are the parts of that um I can imagine going to be all Paul might as well come up he's the one that put some of these numbers together yeah come on you put all of them together not some of them so so in other words when when when you put $266,000 for playground and seating you know something about what you're getting yeah to be clear uh Paul Kangas IA Inc Dayton resident um to be clear the estimate that I provided um had a detailed breakdown um our goal to help kind of synthesize the information for you is to to not include all those line items but there is a breakdown that that details where all the estimated costs came from and we happy to share that with you well I would personally like to have that because $2,000 garbage cans are ridiculous right we we've talked about a number of things really what what I think we need to come out of this meeting with is a clear expectation for the funding that's available for the project and how much you're willing to move funds that were dedicated in 2026 as Marty mentioned the majority of this development will happen on the North half um going backwards this park is larger but similar in scope to either Hayden Hills or River Hills so when you think of you know what a neighborhood park those are two recent examples and um you know those are coming in at about half a million dollars um this is a little bit different we're now talking about adding parking we're talking about adding irrigation and as we all know the costs are spiraling um it's good to hear that the bidding climate is strong that's always a goal it it's really hard for a consultant to to do cost estimating right now again it's like a cat in a Hot Tin rof we're really nervous I I take a lot of pride in coming up with real reasonable numbers uh accurate numbers historically in my 30 your career I've been two to 5% with many of my estimates I don't make that claim easily anymore because we've been surprised by some big numbers over recent years uh postco so um are the estimates High probably hopefully um but we've also changed the scope of what a neighborhood park might be in the city of Dayton so if cdaa is involved that changes the the infield design it changes the fencing requirement changes whether or not it should be irrigated but they're paying for that but they're paying for it this affect our budget or your quote at that point because they're going to C those but it does affect the overall project cost so when we think you know half a million dollars versus something that might be you know 900,000 now um that's where some of those difference are the parking is a significant element when we looked at the food TR Food Truck Parking that was a wish list of the residents uh we thought we could use it as kind of parallel parking around the outside so it was kind of dual purpose but when push came to shove and we realized how much it would cost and shared that with the neighbors we we pulled it back uh the current plan has an option for parking on the North and basically replicating that same idea on the south so that we could get to that the price difference than two I'm guessing is inflation yes CU you're going to do one this year and one two years from now that's the $4,000 price for inflation or cost that's not that I know but it was a question so I figured what we on it we what what's more surprising is pickle ball courts were a year ago 40,000 now they're 55 yeah and there was question uh among the residents you know they'd love to have tennis uh there was one real vocal uh woman that that really wanted to push tennis and I like tennis I like pickle ball but when you look at the the court size and the costs associated with it tennis is so much more expensive and pickle ball is definitely the the more favorable sport right now I'm sure there are people that play tennis but typically they need to travel a little bit more so when you really look at you know the park amenities um you know a neighborhood park wants basketball it needs a playground it wants Trails so then it comes down to some of those things that we haven't offered uh sand volleyball was a very lowcost item in the grand scheme of things uh but something that they had asked for so we included it as Marty said the the neighborhood Gardens and the dog park were almost unanimously uh U UNF so um those were taken out um but back to your original comment we do have a detailed cost tment happy to share that with you U already has it it's just yeah I I didn't include it in this because it just muddied the waters even more so I I put the um the lines together as just the total number so the base bid was the total number the additional um sorry uh General erosion control and earthwork that was just one number it wasn't broken down into you know Biol logs or um silk fence that kind of thing is just a total cost of those elements I have to print them really big now cuz I can't see very well but this is the level of detail that that is available this was the previous uh plan but we have led items with our with our best guests there are not detailed plans done yet that's why we're here to ask you to prepare those plans but again these are very similar in scope a double pickle ball is the same whether it was at Hayden Hills or or here here so I know what those quantities are within reason things like Trails might change a little bit the acreage of this park is significant so Landscaping especially the seating costs are higher I know how much it cost me to landscape my house when I moved in so the Landscaping costs aren't all that surprising giving the size of this is way larger than my yard and so it's not overly surprising to me but it is a lot of money to the to the comment Mr Mayor that you made about alternates I've used alternates a lot in my career they're a really effective way to to hedge against the wha ifs um I never spend the city's money differently than well a little differently but I I take very seriously the idea of being physically responsible um even though I'm not paying for it um you know I was out personally watering Sod at Hayden Hills on my own time because I want those projects to be successful um I kind of view the Dayton Park system as a little bit of a legacy um relatively late in my career I want Dayton to have as great a park system as you can have at the right value and ultimately you're the elected uh people that that get to decide how much money gets allocated to that we try to work with the CIP funding that's available but quite honestly the CIP funding that was allocated for these are probably not enough to give you the same parks that you got in Hayden Hills and uh River Hills so it's it's unfortunate that costs have risen as much as I think they have um if the bidding climate is good and it will be publicly bid this is over the threshold so we would expect to to get real strong um competitive bidding but I I can't control some of the cost increases that we've seen over the the last couple years yeah and as far as the detail goes I'm not worried about you know getting it down to the blade grass but I mean for example the playground in seating area it'd be nice to know you know what is eating up the bulk of that um you know Landscaping what is eating up the bulk of that I I mean some of this stuff it may make sense um I I I was more alarmed in in the at the the Stevens uh one only because the numbers and the detail I didn't see the detail wasn't there for me to feel okay I've got it right here if you want to look at it but I can tell you that the Landscaping was mainly in this case is mainly Hydro Seating and large trees I'm looking at this so you did receive the detail I sent it out to you the weekly update prior to this council meeting y even on this one yeah so I sent you out a Excel file separate from that was Excel file on the weekly update that would not have been this past Friday but two Fridays ago I sent out details so you can go back and look and that I provided also the concept PL so you guys have plenty of time to look at those I did that on purpose so you had plent time to get those details and they they may not have been broken out as a a slide is going to be three grand but it's going to show you the playground crimit budgeted for $85,000 when we do the like the playground thing and and I I got a couple things here the play are we still using the outfit over in Wisconsin for the playground is that the only outfit we use we normally go to three different companies to get bids from okay uh and I'm only going to do this because I did look at uh the ion Garden deal we had uh $800 to $1,000 for a park bench in the uh bid and I went looked and you can buy a metal park bench for 200 bucks yep will it last 20 years well metal metal will last 100 years no when you get kids jumping up and down on them and stuff that's what you pay for it's like it's like the the trash cans the the minimum that I in trash cans for is about 1,400 bucks um you know will they work yes they will work but there's a whole different there's a whole range of things that you're looking at there but that's where you're starting out it's 1,400 bucks for plastic can buy 50 trash cans for $2,000 and put one in every year I can I can buy uh Supply 55 gallon blue drums with the TPS car off for nothing but you want that versus 2,000 bucks yeah I would take I think if you get 2,000 bucks you're setting you know you're trying to set a standard here for what what your parts are looking for like it sets a standard for for what dayon is as well so I think you know if you can buy those things that you know they're $2,000 but they last you 20 years what's that 100 bucks a year yeah that's good but we don't have to spend 2,000 bucks I mean there there's cheaper options for sure it's crazy could I mean you wouldn't spend $2,000 for trash can out of your own nobody in this room would but I'm may maybe Paul but $1,000 he spend just like City might I think I think Marty's comment you know yes you can buy a a metal bench it might be cast iron that would be broken the next week quite honestly there there is a significant level of quality difference between commercial grade park and rec Furniture versus what you would buy at Menard's so that's not an apples apples comparison but Marty and I have talked about establishing a standard for all parks in the city of Dayton that either can be done um using in-house resources there's more simple ways there's ways to order in quantity so that you allocate whatever the number is $5,000 or $10,000 every three years and and you go and replace so that you have a a standard an aesthetic standard as well as a maintenance standard for those things we also talked about about pulling those items out of uh the bids so that you're not paying general contractor markup on things that can be installed with Public Work crew time obviously you're paying those guys but if it fits within their schedule and and you know they're already employed and and are able to do that work then let's do that that's ways that we myself as a consultant and your staff can help um maximize the efficiency of the dollars and that's what it's about you know I I won't sit here and argue whether it should be blue or green or red or yellow um but we're looking to establish a quality a level of quality something that's very durable because the life expectancy of these Parks should be 25 to 30 years of I'm talking play equipment in this instance um but the same thing with Park and wreck furniture or the basketball goals you know yes you can buy them cheaper but they won't last it's a it's a different level of use and abuse you know if everybody used it the way they did at their home and and cared for that same way that would be one thing but the abuse that you get in the public realm is just um unfortunate but it's going to happen I think the general wear and tear is is different you know to what you would expect in your own home there's a lot more traffic going through these things um a lot more usage on them you know I don't I don't disagree with with the fact that you want you want something that's going to handle the the 12-year-old kids that are pounding on something or or whatever whatever but we do have this problem where I see once in a while we will we will use that there there we go meeting over we we may use that kind of as a crotch um I and I can give an example of the the the I don't know what you call it but the up at um clo Park that that shelter cost us at that time like 40 Grand I would guarantee you that we could have put some of them a lot cheaper that would still be up to this day and it might even look better um so that that I I agree that there are times where we want to spend money on things to to get something that's solid um I just think that we need to um be cognizant of the fact that we we just because you spend more money for something doesn't mean it's necessarily going to and you may be out buy you know uh something that's going to last 80 years but is it going to be there in 80 years yeah is it going to be there in 40 years yeah um go ahead well I there's a few examples but um I think you get the point um so that and that's my concern is that I don't want to see us um [Music] [Music] make the most competitive bids and give you the most opportunities to make informed decisions that's the biggest Advantage alternat is being able to make an informed decision just like we did at Hayden Hills you have um the pickle ball court was an alternate on that one so we knew going uh after the bid result and be when we came to you and said do you want to approve this for x amount you knew what that number was and we were able to to make an informed choice to include it and I think you know some of the parks that we've already you know done over the last few years are all holding up pretty well the the rivers Ben park over there the playground in there I mean that gets a lot of a lot of use in there um and it still looks in in good shape you know you know we put that in in 2015 so that's 9 years old now so it's you know the colors haven't faded on it the equipment is still solid um I think it's still in great shape so that's kind of the standard that we want we're trying to achieve here I've got um the additional six and 6.1 Acres we don't have that yet right everything that's kind of faded back with the white that is not everything North future that's Future No we have everything North nothing South great corre correct okay today I like the idea of the CDA ball field have we talk to them are they willing to pay for it we we haven't talked to them about numbers yet but they have expressed an interest in using it and Jo they'll use it I want commitment they they'll use it for free that's not going to happen I talk with Zach about this and if we have to put that money in there we would talk to them before we put that additional money into yeah we would we keep it to a standard of wanting to have a ball field in and you know at the in the park however anything above and beyond would be paid for by CDA that needs for their programming here's my idea on this deal if you're going to do the ball field I mean number one you're going to have to relook at the parking lot because 21 stalls is enough is not enough for that's why North and the South would be 42 stalls total total total both sides yeah I get that okay I'd like to see two if you could get two ball fields in there I mean you you've got a native Pur space which walk over to Three Rivers Park and there's also some pretty large existing trees on that you could leave them there you could leave them there and still get another ball field in the on both sides is what I'm saying depends on where the trees are I guess if you leave them if they're right Middle where the pitch Mountain's going to be you just start at the south end of the deal midle CER I don't know the measurements on all this but but my thought is if you shrink some of this down and and you go with the same budget and heaven forbid I'm saying this you go with the same budget that you spent on the other two parks whatever that number 3/4 of a million bucks whatever that number is that's what you get that's all there is I mean the residents are going to take whatever you give them number one one fairness the developers are giving us money for this correct this isn't like it's coming from it's it's Park FK fund it's Park fund money yeah correct but the money we're using to fund this it's not like it came from from Scott's taxes right corre it is Curr not tax it's not tax understand so I mean yeah and we've we're allotting if you take out the CDA piece we've allotted the 1.1 million for it without the parks and and water right that right and without that but that that's giving you everything on the top on the North End that's that's that's for north and south end though that's what's budgeted for the south end yeah minus the trails because the trails are covering through Trails funds yeah so the amount that you see on your on the bid sheet or whatever is everything for the entire park I understand that we're not going to pay that I'm saying you get it down to you pick and choose out of this thing to get it the total expenditure down to 3/4 of a million bucks and then you go to CDA and you prob try and put two ball fields on the on the cell then because it's going to be three4 of a million bucks come from that's what we spent on the other two parts yeah you just want to reduce the overall cost I want to reduce the overall cost how many homes funded Hayden Hills River Hills was 332 homes that's some over there so this is four neighborhoods that are coming together on this so the there's already a park over in the you're you're counting the Sundance D there's a park over there already we already spent 300 that bottom corner has to it's going to support free Sundance scens and then whatever so Sundance Woods put a park in yeah yeah that's the one we put in there I think it was what 350 or something like that 19 yeah so it's 350 or something like that we put in for Sundance Woods um and then yeah we do not have a par in Sundance Greens suance Greens technically does not have a park currently so this park this combined four Parcels that are coming this one big Park are serving four neighborhoods yeah so so by that logic we should be spending four times that we spent on ha because four neighborhoods that's why I'm trying to figure out the logic I think talking 300 versus 400 yeah so if you got Sunday and screens alans is is 552 homes just Sundance greens and then you got Bray bur Trails another 180ish and then Bray bur Trails East is another 140 these are rough numbers and then the potential um bottom right corner Southwest Southeast corner of that is going to be I don't even know how many that will be my guess is if you did it all homes it's probably 350 okay so, so why why rather than taking part fees don't we just go to the developer and say you build it because their requirement is only get to give us X number of percentage or the equivalent in park dedication fee so they won't go above and beyond that right so they'll say okay we'll give you land and dollars but we won't give you all of this taken care of by us yeah legally you're yeah you can't you can by state law exactly as Zach described on my soap box for a minute you have to keep up with your Park dedication fees when I was the park planner for the city of Maple Grove and I I bring that up repeatedly but Maple Grove is known to have one of the better Park systems in the Northwest Metro uh every year we went out and and kind of took a poll of neighboring communities and even communities all across the metro and got an idea of what they were charging and we adjusted our our Park dedication fee per residential unit every year and you know you've seen what the costs have done you can't take a park that you did four years ago for a half million and say well we're only going to give this neighborhood 4 million because that park now cost 650 or whatever ever the inflation has done so it's unrealistic to think that you can do it for the same money but you can have a similar amenity a similar size zooming back out the entire city has been planned for Park service areas this is Park service area 21 roughly a square mile every square mile roughly gets a neighborhood park that doesn't include the community playfields or any tot Lots or special use Parks like uh LC Stevens but that's kind of it industry accepted standard a neighborhood park every square mile and that serves these four neighborhoods and and any others that can get here how much land was dedicated each one of these is [Music] five4 actually let me restate that um how much did that go into their perk dedication how much did it eat up what I'm seeing here is if they gave pure cash our Park fund gets roughly four per house $4,000 per house to talko yeah yep it's rough numbers I mean it's so that's $4 million if it was Cash mhm but a lot of it was land so I guess what I'm wondering is how much cash what about half about half was land and half was Cash dollarwise MH okay the developers would almost always rather give you the cash than give you the land because they lose the profit they lose their ability to to shape it um David do you have anything you want to add we've all been talking for a while yeah go ahead Dave I I do have a couple of comments um and these might just bounce around a little bit but um you know we've been using 500k as a budget number for a while and it and it hasn't been right you know we've got we've been more in the 750 neighborhood on these neighborhood parks and this one is is bigger substantially bigger than several of the last couple that we've done um so that it it comes in higher than that 750 number doesn't doesn't surprise me uh because it wasn't going to work um I'm usually an advocate for us having a big contingency because of how often we kind of get burned on it but uh 20% contingency on a park seems like a lot to me and I wouldn't change it now but I that seems to me like that's a number that um is likely to not be needed because we're not we're not digging big holes we're not putting in bridges we're you know scraping the ground and and Paving over it to some degree so I think there's you know we should be very comfortable with that contingency number and I don't think we're going to I don't think we would need all of that uh as far as we're not including any budget or any Grant dollar in this and we're likely to get some particularly if we if we do the upgraded uh ball field and I know that's phase two but I think that there's we've gotten other grants for playground equipment and U I think there's in addition to henan County grants there's twins grants and things that that I know Marty goes after so I think that you know that could bring our cost down down some I am concerned on the south end and I know you said there's parking on the North and the South but the ball fields on the South if we do go ahead with the the cdaa standard ball field we're going to need more than 21 spots otherwise people are going to park on the street they're not going to find that other parking um so I I have a concern around that uh and I don't think we've talked about this yet but there kind of the cost shifting from 26 to to this year uh I don't have a big worry about doing that because we know that money is coming back and these call the South uh areas that are that are phase two um get developed as as neighborhoods will be getting additional funds back into the park you know through Park dedication fees um to rebuild what we're borrowing against uh to do this sooner rather than later and so I I'm not that worried about that either you know I think the discussion around uh finding value where we can on on some of these things uh you know that's you that that should be an ongoing mission for everybody and we haven't seen real bids yet you know I I think Paul does the best he can with his numbers but he doesn't want to be wrong on the low side because we don't like that so thank you David there's that um so you know the the total total number of thing I I think that you know it's a fair question from the resident why are we spending $2,000 on a trash can I think that's very fair and I would question that too but we don't have a real big and so that's you know I think that's to be determined and and we can always beat that you know beat up some of those details later once we once we get but I think all of this is just kind of high level discussion other than the amenities themselves um until we get real bids on it and so I don't want to get to bog down in in the details on it until we see those and and we we haven't approved any well we haven't approved anything yet but I mean all we're being asked to approve here today is to get those detailed plans so we can get real numbers on it and I certainly hope that's what we're going to do the the problem though with the bids is is I mean those those bids aren't not AR aren't typically something other than the alternates you can pick at um because that developer is doing this as a project and so they may move numbers around depending on what they're doing so other than the alternates you're you're you're stuck with the the base base project so if something comes in high you really have to rebid the thing um to to a degree on the structural stuff but like the playground equipment and the benches and things you know as Marty said they they'll get several bids and those playground um manufacturers I've seen from my time on the Parks Commission you know they'll come in with a a variety of proposals on how Grand do you want this to be and you know what the prices are for those so there is still room for you know some some value engineering if you want to call it that on on those individual things but you're right the you know the grading and the paving and all of that those are hard numbers and we got to live with them just so I know assuming we approve this and move forward with it to get the the bids it still goes back to the Parks Commission there'll be more discussion about this no one's made decisions about will or will not go in the park today so it's just and my my concern is back the Parks Commission to look at and give a recommendation to the council so they can make some recommendation that is within budget to get this done um so and I too don't my only concern about it's small but pulling money from 26 to 24 to today to get some of this done is not the moving the money it's that we need to make sure leave enough with extra because of inflation so when we do the Southside we still have the money left to the southide so we don't have half a park and half a nothing so that's my biggest concern is more about making sure that um you know we have enough money for the Southside and that we don't just steal from Peter never pay P I think that's my concern I don't have a lot of concern about that pulling that money in either because unless development dies which I just don't see not there not in this area all we're doing is borrowing from the par fund yeah right so I'm not my my concern is we I wouldn't say it gets the rest of the yeah my point is I wouldn't take everything from it and then leave nothing for the bottom half if that makes sense like we have to be reasonable how much we pull up but I think if we bid out the cost of the Southern stuff to at the same time we get bids and we'll have a general idea we tap an inflation Market to it and go from there that would help us we literally can't because you don't own the land you can't show improvements on land you don't own so can't ask someone what it would cost if I own this land get this done that seems pretty I mean oh I could I do have lots of historical data that I pull from for every estimate um to David's comment the the contingency would drop to usually use 10% once we actually do detailed drawings and can double check quantities and and hopefully see some bids coming in this year so that contingency would drop um for the budgeting purposes and then often times we even drop it further going into construction I think we carried 5% on the 2022 Parks Improvement program I think there was a little light there at 5% cuz we dropped that to get the asphalt trails in y you know that that does guard against the unknowns that are inevitable in construction um but you know as we refine these are concept plans right they're they're pretty good detailed concept plans but they're still concept plans because there's been a lot of moving targets there's quite a bit of work that needs to be done to to get bitable construction documents details specs um but there will be a chance then to to nitpick and and pick it apart even further if you wish uh I will tell you that if there are things that you just don't want tell me now because it gets really expensive to pull them out or to make major changes uh after the fact so this is really just approval to get detailed bids yeah all way to get plans done and then not bids come back to you again and ask you to go to B right gotta but it's do you what he's asking is do you want the informal soccer field do you want everything on I think we should I I have no problem getting bids for them that doesn't bother me well the cdaa issue is a big deal because if you as the council said nope we're not going to allow cdaa to use our neighborhood parks which has been the stance in the past was no we we're not going to do that so like Hayden Hills only has the the back stop and a little bit of egg line because it wasn't supposed to be used for either competitive use or scheduled practices so that's a big change there were a number of Reason yeah for one they weren't going to help us with cost they were just going to pay and so we would have had to add to that cost to get it and and I think that's a very fair stance to take they should be paying for it if they're using it at least helping and we got dly do wear my reason for having an open mind to it is it's going to be I mean I do see a community park at someday in this city I think we're going to have one someday like an Andrews yeah we need one it'll be 30 40 years at this rate I understand that and if we can get two ball fields or something that CDA can use in the meantime that that they think is good enough other than just a farm field like I used to play on but to go from a I don't remember what the Delta was it was it's been a couple years but to go from just something that local kids could use to something that they can use was it was the good job3 $140,000 yeah I would add like it's not only the cost of the ball field I think I'd be asking for them definitely to cover the the increase in that um we're going to need more parking to fulfill that need as well so I would be ask I'd be asking for some of that too the one piece I will add that I would say if we don't do the CDA BAS basball field is I I don't know if the only one that hears if Marty hears it but I see it online unfortunately is like wow they never even finished the field in Sund Dan when they did that baseball field because it was never designed it was designed to be for pickup games it wasn't designed to be a Christine field right and I think the some of the neighbors down there either aren't aware or don't care and they want something nicer than that and so I think we have to be mindful too of of I have no problem with the baseball field the neighbors want it that's great I just we need to have clear expectations of what that baseball field will be if it's informal versus what it will be if it's a CDA scheduled and utilized field because it will be significantly nicer if CDA is using it even when they're not using it it'll be significantly nicer versus if it's an informal field it's going to be pretty minimal and the thing is is historically we have had to put out that money yeah and so we did so and candidly I'm not I would not be interested in spending the4 whatever the number was ,000 on it unless CDA was willing to partner and I've heard from CDA that they want to do that I know that particularly they're looking for a bike wheel of fields so which you're not going to get here so I don't know if that they'd be that how interested they would actually be in forking out the money to make it happen so for on this plan Ian when we're talking about CDA program Fu you can look at Central Park as an example you know it's small kids it's it'd be a bigger infield than what we have on Sundance for example yep um more fencing irrigation I those are the upgrades yep yep Sundance Woods was designed to just be that neighborhood dad throwing pitches to his daughter you know to practice it was never meant to be competitively used but I will tell you the mistake that was made at Sundance Woods was getting Land from the developer that wasn't well vetted it was too low I don't know exactly how that came to be but that land was not ideal for some of the park users that we ended up having to put on it so and I think they took a lot of fill material out there and put a bunch of clay in there so really dirty material in that s so the seed the grass seed has never taken really well over there over the last few years and then we put the um hockey rink over there as well so that just makes it so that we are actually looking at putting some irrigation over in that park I think that's what's going to be more common in parks and neighborhoods is putting Irrigation in because people want to look out their their window and see their grass and they don't want to look over and see this brown crunchy field that is their playground it's not fun to go play a ground country well that's how uh Rivers's bent was forever it was you didn't even want to walk on a br foot yeah so I had made some notes at at uh the last Park commission meeting Hayden Hills the base did with the accepted alternates was $497,000 and what's different between this and and Hayden Hills is we added parking and irrigation and those are another 175,000 but the irrigation is not coming out of the parks budget correct I'm just talking about project cost but that puts you at 670 that was bid in early 2022 so I think it's very realistic to have at least a 10% increase which puts you at 750 and that doesn't include some of the the phase two things that we're talking about so I mean the numbers they don't lie I hope they're high but they don't lie um it's a bigger Park there's some things that we're exploring with parking and and some of those that just have never been considered in the past so the half million dollars that you know okay Hidden Hills and and PSA 21 it's it's no longer an Apples to Apples comparison so do you need a motion tonight or is this just a feedback piece we we need a motion so it's not just for this park though so I want to make sure we park by park for motions to make it easier you can most certainly take a park by Park if you want to I'll motion for this one that we move forward with better drawings is that the next step of this construction documents construction documents for the plan as shown on the screen here just so we can get to bids because I think it's going to be hard for us to make any real decisions and what alternatives we do or don't want until we know what it's actually going to cost and so that would be my motion for this particular PSA number 21 well are you are you kind of implying in that that we'll get better estimates you'll get revised estimates you you'll do construction I don't think I can make a real decision anything to like actual quotes and that's though that's which is not what we're going to we have to do this next step to get to that step as I'm understand so that's so when we come back to you next time mayor fiser we'd be asking for uh approval to go out to bid yeah like you did earlier tonight um and then from there we would come back with the bid results and then you would be able to make y or a decisions on the base bid accepting the base go to the Parks Commission first does it I would like it to go to the Parks Commission first because I think they're there to represent the parks and I think they're trying to be as involved as they can and we should give them an opportunity and it gives the public one more chance to show up so oftentimes we hear we didn't know this was coming and and we heard this all the time I want to make it very clear we get the packets the Thursday before just like they're posted on the internet this will come back to Parks Commission and then it will come back back to city council I would highly recommend the Parks Commission is the first Tuesday of every month the City Council meetings are the second and fourth Tuesdays of every month be very aware of those dates and what's coming and you have the same access same information for what's going to be on the agenda that all of us up here have so just so there's Clarity because I've heard that from everybody that's talked we've had one day notice and um that I would say you may have heard about it one day ago but it was posted for everyone and it's posted on the city Facebook page the agenda um so you can follow the city there um to fear more but I would motion that we move forward to the next step so that I I I just want to get to bid so we can figure this actually going to cost cuz I feel like until then we're just locked in this Perpetual what do we do we don't know we can't make a real decision so that's where my heads at for PSA number 21 I would like to do phases one and two and just keep them both moving and get bids for whatever we can on phase one and two so we know how much money we can conceptualize pulling out of the 26 numbers into the 24 numbers numbers so I would I would I'm going to bulk them together unless as a problem with all of PSA 21 as my motion well do you have a problem with detail documents on phase two given that we don't you don't even have the land yet yeah I I don't think legally I can but we will have it'll be designed so we'll be able to know what the quantities are and and using the bid numbers land I'll call some owners and we'll get you on the land I have a problem with that I don't think you're even going to complain about it so if that's a problem is you need authority to set fo in the land I'm happy to help facilitate no it's not setting foot it's just it's not literally owned by the city yet so you can't but we have we have Master plans we drop but plans we don't own either so I don't see why this is no I can see we're going out to bid maybe a little ear yeah I think we're getting wrapped up in in construction documents versus bid results we will estimate it we'll let you know how that works but we won't be asking the contractor to put hard numbers to a plan on land that you don't control mhm okay and I think we did do some high level cost for the second the out part of yeah I'd like to see those refined too those my point to me that's going to help depict how much money I would be okay pulling forward okay that's fine I mean we can do that with the bid documents we just wouldn't include them in the bid act so I know the cdaa communication and negotiation happens outside of my involvement but that would be an important element for everyone to to come to the table with are we a majority consensus that we're not going to make that a CDA field unless CDA is going to cover a majority if not all of the costs associated with that and possibly the parking that would be yeah okay so in my mind like that being a CDA Park the city's not going to pay for CDA is going to end up paying for y and so if they want to do it I think when we get to getting actual bids for that chunk and my doesn't change the decision we have to make is my point because we're not we don't have to approve that money CDA would be the one approving that money to be honest it's an alternate that's relatively easy to make it just has to be very clearly stated in the bid documents that this is BAS bu this is what city of Dayton's paying for I mean ultimately it's going to be a city of Dayton contract but by then need to know if C kind of like things we do with Three Rivers Park District so I'll leave it to Marty and John to figure that out you guys all the right people to talk to so so you motion motion I'll second um okay any more discussion on that all those in favor say I I I I I guess there's no I I guess thank you yes it's just for a bid yeah it's not even for a bid in real in reality we just it's for a more detailed estimate we're approving a more detailed estimate so we can approve it so uh just a side question about these well not a side one the resident brought it out uh was there some confusion about restrooms or um will this have access to SE and water anywhere water yes no uh we were looking at uh the well that you just described is a irrigation well for this um rather than us C water oh that would be that makes sense so it's just irrigation it's just irrigation just irrigation yeah okay the only restrooms would be Port the restrooms would be Porta I think there was at one stage a a compost in a VA type we talked about it as we about it but it's a big number yeah just going to go with the portter party on there um which is more than okay so we can now move on to what's next Island Gardens oh no we go to ELC Steve sorry I I put the slideshow together differently than our packet that's always well you know I just threw it together and thank you for the residents that came out and sat for the entire thank you thank you thank you um so Paul you'll do such a good job there do you want to so again this went through the process it's had multiple changes um it's been in front of the park commission a few times um there's been various iterations of this um Park commission uh wanted to see more than just uh uh the four things that we had identified the bridge um the uh performance space um uh the decorative gate the signage um so again I spoke with Zach and we you thought about a few things here um and this is uh the initial thing that was shown to the park commission about the um the extended uh performance area with a covered sale type uh scenario over the stage the additional Paving in the front is the performance area there'll be some additional seating um uh to the right there shown in brown um this has been changed significantly since um so these were some of the uh potential uh covers that were shown I've added some additional ones in your packet um that aren't shown here um but those were some ideas of uh what could go over the stage area the performance area and a couple of ideas for other things that the the concrete cornhole uh uh bags uh game and some grills there um this is the signage that was uh designed for this park and then there was some gates we had to have that controlled access um at the original entrance there that's what hanping county are asking for um so this is uh the latest and greatest that we've come up with um the park commission wanted to see some sand volleyball um some additional uh picnic area potentially um picnic sh volleyball court um some additional parking um so we uh in the yellow there you'll see additional parking from what's there already so I don't think the P commission saw this just to be clear they haven't seen this yet great nor did they I just want to be clear that we're stating from I don't think they recommended any of the of these things because the four things that were shown to them match the budget yeah so just so we're all on the same page of what was and I think was some additional talk that you know we could spend additional money on this these would be areas that we could do something with and I told you know we identified some additional U funding sources for this after the last part board me after the last part board me additional funding Services because we're not so the the irrigated area in blue is going to come out of the water the trail stuff will come out of trails again so we're just appropriately they didn't have that information they making their decision at all yeah okay it's still still money from one of our Enterprise but we're the park Port Said No we should finish the stage area and we need to do the gates the signage and the bridge bridge yes because we had shown uh the picnic shelter and some of the the little bit of parking that kind of gets uh handicap accessibility to that picnic shelter the semicircular curved parking area has always been part of the master plan but it wasn't shown to the park board but but that is now what's broken out here in your estimate I have no problem with the information screen I'm sure we're clear what they haven't haven't seen so that yeah this was pulled together after okay y so and this is a revised look at the performance area with this seating changed around so this had enough detail for me to look at um I'm not seeing where all that money is going tell me where that money is going because I don't see what was the number let me the stage is $180,000 and the bridge is228 the bridge that's a whole another yeah um and the irrigation is coming out of water parks sign is coming out different fund so that's why this one I'm talking about the that right there um we just we get to it do you remember Paul what the dollar amount was for that 1715 um yeah 1715 was budgeted for the roof element and the seating and concrete steps and rails and Y so where they got 18040 on this one yep it's different than this one but they made changes to it in all fairness they change the scene around oh on that one so where's that going I'm not seeing 180 Grand there what what yeah uh well the budget estimate on the canvas structure is $100,000 is it really yeah it might be 80 did I bump it down to 80 you had even said in the Parks Commission you go I'm taking I'm going to use different words but basically taking a shot in the dark on this it could be way higher it could be way lower I'm taking my best guess but you did mentioned during the parse commission me that you did not I'm going to put words in your mouth so tell me if I'm wrong honestly know how much that was going us and we were kind ofing those were my words at the park commission since then I've had a um a nice conversation with a gentleman from Canvas Craft which is just across the river right off of 101 uh a local vendor they're already evidently an approved vendor for the city of Dayton he said but uh he shared some information confirmed that what we were showing in concept was workable and actually told me that um it could be less than what I had estimated so I think I dropped it down to 80 on the last print out I didn't know put that made it into here because that came out yeah so and so what's the lifespan on something like that 20 to 25 years is what they're that's a lot longer than the cheaper one I got off Amazon yes cuz that one I got for really cheap and it lasted like two summers that does require a seasonal up and down um that makes sense and the replacement in the future when canvas is needed again and that was the higher uh grade waterproof canvas because I know Mr salonic wants this to be a a great performance area and it should be a nice performance area um but that was an actual uh water proof canvas as opposed to just a shade structure so I actually have a little more Comfort than I did at the park commission meeting um uh the poles the footings for the poles that's a big chunk of of that be Ste the rest of it is the the concrete the retaining walls the little bit of grading that's the goal would be to have the current roughly oval or rectangular shaped um stage area that's there today be at the same elevation of the new area shown in brown out in front of that and there's a little bit of grade that we have to make up the steps and the retaining walls I think what kills us here and I we've kind of bought oursel into this is those Limestone benches cuz they're like $1,200 a piece and we need 35 of them or something so that was my next question 700 they were 700 now $1,200 according to this I have in front of me it may have changed since the why are we doing po concrete a lot cheaper than then I that boggled my mind the first time it snuck through actually I take that back we voted on it and approved it I didn't see that detail I would not have voted on it well my point is I feel like what are we going to rip out the current stuff and redo it all it's going to cost more than just we we're kind of like bought into this and we're going to keep doing it kind of thing really well what else you can do to expand seating two wrongs make it right right no but my point is like you have kind of Benes maybe yeah okay I mean if if they're 1,200 it's this big I i' I've said would you do that I would not have done it in the first place I would have a problem with it but the problem I have is is I think it's going to look really offputting if we're going to try to make this a premere Park which is what we're calling it now we're going to have these great bands come in and have these big events I think there's no way we can use a different material and have still look fine or have it look even almost intentional colored con I'd be okay with some of that like I'm I just don't want it to be like oh look we have stone benches all of a sudden we put in like metal City benches next to it treated yeah that's what I don't want because to me that doesn't look that's fine you just told me 1,200 a piece yeah what that's $35,000 I think is what it came to on this one 42,000 for 35 of them it's the cost of the stone it's a transporting which is the biggest but they should never have to be replaced I'm guessing but if you go back to the first photo so divide it by 100 years and you're good to go go back to the first photo yeah it was on that keep keep going those will be there forever oh so with concrete yes absolutely they will be there forever well there's I design stuff like this all the time you don't just pour a rectangle of concrete without a footing and structural rebar you know it's not just as simple as putting a little concrete down I I do agree so Stone because they are in four or five foot I think they're 4 foot sections it allows a little bit of movement concrete doesn't concrete cracks concrete has to be um potentially refinished it's a very durable Timeless solution and I think it looks beautiful don't get me wrong there is an aesthetic element but there is a significant cost for each of these that that we've kind of set in place for ourselves at some measure into perpetuity which kind of s assuming that you can't change that they're not the most comfortable I mean they're not uncomfortable but it's just sitting on a stone so it's not like it's like you know a comfortable chair to sit right it's less come from the Twin stadium seat let's put it that way I think when we we did this before we looked at the additional cost of doing it as concrete and there wasn't that much difference I'm not saying con's the right answer either I mean I honestly would have just had a very nice graded Hillside you could put blankets down on people can sit on that would be more comfortable to sit on than or bring your own lawn chair like uh River well that's what we when we when you had moving the park thing at the end of last year that's we just brought a blanket we actually set off of the stone intentionally on the grass because it's more comfortable actually I thought elk rer is is it's the same Stone it's the same Stone there river by the river there I don't know what Champlin did in their area I haven't been to I think their amp is just concrete but there's no chairs because I've been involved in in every phase of this I know some of the history as to why the decisions get made I know that uh council member salonic has said uh heartburn over the cost of the $800 stone that are now $1,200 um there's pros and cons to each of it right but it is a Timeless very aesthetic durable solution you you could just creade it you could put a lot of people in this area as it exists today you don't have to expand the seating we also have to have to do anything there right but the direction we were given and I think it was at your urging was to make this a bigger performance area to have a bigger stage and more seating currently there's enough for about 60 people there if you bring some more lawn chairs yeah you could fit more people in I mean people could bring a lawn chair so if you don't want to spend $35,000 on on Stone on seating and it's okay to have people sitting in lawn chairs then you spend the the money on the the stage area will this entire area be irrigated for the plane this area here yes okay that's as good as the gra has ever looked in the time that that's we walk our dog on no I'm looking for a particular picture on a a shelter that I seen but it wasn't the canvas thing it was it was made out of wood and I mean it was very nice the the at some point there was a a I don't it was one of the previous pictures where there was a uh two two level gazebo twostory two two photos three there you that guy yeah what's a ballpark on that is that anywh do you have it Matt what what did I put for a number on I don't have that I don't think cuz this is just says tinsel fabric element I don't have the oh structure for it all I've SE Park picnic shelter and the East parking area that would be just that little bit of parking and the roundabout to get to it was at 250 um the shelter is probably a 100 of that that shelter right there not that one oh but that was I'll order you up 10 of them yeah I was gonna say so I mean I'm half surprised by know how much it cost us to build a house for well house the for well well five yeah expensive no the shelter that we've estimated would be a much simpler structure than that are you familiar with the uh sh the uh structure that Albertville has the Lions put up I think you showed me a picture at the last meeting y that's perfect David something want to add no we just had um so on this one again we're just moving forward for more detailed drawings so do we I don't have a problem I don't have a problem with this particular area and personally I'd like to see the uh the shelter I mean to me we need some sort of a shelter somewhere in this park yep go to the plan before seating right before the still I think it would be good to help you to have you tell me what what kind of shelter you're envisioning you know it's the the larger Brown area the smaller Brown was a potential compostable toilet that didn't make it into the it might have put on the line compostable really like the uh State Park used a lot in the different than I'd rather have Porta bodies M personally they're cheaper so me I wouldn't what are you what are we what are we looking at the alternatives just help me understand you know if you could have your brothers would it be a shelter like the last photo or a simple structure like we have in Hayden or or River Hills um that shelter you're talking which the brown one the brown one like the band shelter he's talking about the brown oh shelter kind of the family reunion rental space you could do corporate uh you know events underneath it yeah so I I thought it's some point we were doing something along those lines where the current uh patio blocks went that the stage area Pera area no no what was the point of I mean to me that's where we are going to need something over in that side too I mean at some point I mean I would think at some point there's a a large building an event center planned oh yeah that's the 5 million another building so to answer your question um when we lived in corers we live by the lions park over there and they've got like a Gathering Spot it looks a lot like the double roof thing that you were showing and to me if we're going to have a gather people would hold birthday parties there for the kids the park was nearby like that's what it was used for and the lines were part of that Park um I think that was very well used and utilized when we lived there we never used it for that but we would go play in the playground have a always every weekend see a birthday party there so I think if the ultimate goal is to have it be the rental space for birthday parties or family get togethers something like Rapids has that Park would be which is very similar to what you have with that double tiered or kind of what they have at um Andrews in Champlin they've got that that big kind of area with like the kitchen in the something like that does the kitchen but like something like that is kind of what if that's what it's going to be used for I think is what it's needed to answer your question for that little round Shack and the me it wouldn't be a little round Shack it' be about a 40 by 30 by 60 it' be big I understand on the map it looks small concrete floor yeah that space is not that big um with could it be yes is that somewhere in the ballpark of uh that's a little bit closer to the river than the two silos that need to come down it is closer to the river yeah those yeah before they fall on somebody that that is uh one of the coolest areas in that Park you get in the woods and we're showing some fingers of openings you know kind of connecting you to the river but um the the trees that are there aren't that great but it's a really cool spot to do something and that's why we kind of targeted that area so how big do you think 20 by 20 I think that one was uh 18 um oh it's 18 by 18 it's 24 by 36 I think I know I don't think and if we're just if we're talking about a are we talking about uh just a a open wall yep y yeah they have to be that you're in the flood plane so you can't play anything with solid walls the culture wants to make it bigger we can make it bigger and then if we'd have to for something else in the Park 24 by 36 I believe that's pretty good these are all Alternatives right because we're under budget on LC Stevens trying to figure what else we can pull in this year correct y ex said these are all just everything outside of sign the gate the bridge and the band area why get the detailed drawings on all three of them and then let the Parks Commission decide what they think can send it to us cuz all we're voting for is to get detail drawings and more hopefully better estimates but still actual numbers yeah I think that area needs to be big enough to if you want to have it rented for birthdays and stuff it's I would go look at whatever the I don't know how big is the one that Lions Park has in cpid at all the time the one in Champlin that I mentioned at Andrews that one's big enough to hold like I've had a couple businesses I do business with have like a thank you event there where they bring people out and have cupcakes and stuff so like it's a it's a that's like the right size for what I think we want to have up there um and so that's the size I would hope to see to fulfill that area I don't know what size that is versus what we have planned but that'd be my two pieces on the side mayor I just want to make sure that if you don't like anything specifically we take it out I mean that's there's no point in putting time of Paul's time in there if we go okay we absolutely don't want that you don't want Limestone blocks let's let's cancel it I mean I would like to see an alternative I would too I I but the problem is I don't know what specifically that's the problem so we can go on just huh said do you need to know that though I would like to know I mean the only thing for example the bridge yeah now I thought I all I see is an ax that a bridge looking thing and it says 20 28,000 you've got the drawings on the the slides in there the bridge is the exact same bridge that was detailed in the 2020 there it is two there it is right there the bridge I I just cut out the ancillary stuff but you know that is the bridge we detail cost I thought that was a g so how does that okay jeez how does that bridge come in at $220 $28,000 was all the work in soil is it the I remember that being the conversation last time and we can't go with the alternative of the Culver we know we tried because it's good the flood plane and the floodway and can't do that we have to make it so we can put in concrete pylons but not a box culbert correct correct what was with that box cover thing different with the South correct yeah yeah because it's out of the flood R the floodway or flood plane or something so this one has to be engineered to the nines because of that okay imaginary line dictated that and the reason it's not built is because it was coming in way over the original budget in the 2022 part like 90,000 bucks so we pulled it Three Rivers pulled theirs and we're going to rebid it with better DET basically we're being held over the barrel by the person that held the contract he didn't he didn't have any reason to to put a good number to it he was locked in you've all seen that cartoon with you know little skiff that's Bas bid and the big yacht that's changed order yeah I mean that was a classic example of it so that's like Scott's dream every time he sees that he counts stuff so but no that that bridge is designed detailed we have great numbers on that we have high confidence in what those costs are our hope is that by competitively bidding it now in the the new package that we'll get even better numbers than what this estimate was based on but the bulk of that cost you believe is is the pilot work not the bridge itself is only like 75,000 of that total so that was one all right yeah you just having some metal shop weld something I got a welder in my garage Scot is it okay if I motion that we move this one forward more sorry yeah I I I getting back to the cover over the um bill or the the perance area um I'm going to send you a couple pictures on that I don't mind the canvas but I feel like an actual roof would just be better because like I I'll give you an example my parents or my grandparents had a canvas pop-up camper up north that they didn't leave out and then eventually what happened was they just built a wood they just built the wood structure cuz I remov the thing over the top of it to protect the canvas because the canvas was expensive to repair all the time so given that I mean those are camper quality and actually the company that you're talking about they were the ones they exact company that would repair the canvas when it got worn out from the elements um and so I would I would I'm open to it if it's like it's half the price to do Canvas we could buy two of these over canopies replace it that's a great thing for us to know but unless it's significantly less I'd rather have a more permanent structure that would be there like a 30x30 with a cover on it i' I'm just thinking like a lean to roof kind of thing kind of yeah the other thing I want to be really mindful of when you look at that with the way the Sun comes from the south it's not going to shade anything on that stage it's only there to keep water off of people so I'm not very particularly I don't I don't the goal in my mind is to keep water off of the electronics that are being put on that stage and that's my goal so um I yeah unless the canvas is infinitely cheaper I would rather see a wood structured element again lean to it doesn't have to be four corners like that it's sound like bunch of bunch of 4 by8 with shingles on top like something nice but it doesn't have to be crazy you know can't be a metal roof though correct Wood's fine I'm okay with that it's got to be wood yeah be is cheaper yeah tin is cheaper but it's going to sound horrible no they've got other materials now too but so from my perspective I don't care whether it's cloth I just want something that's cost effective it's going to last a while and it's going to keep the rain off of the stage cuz it's not going to help the Sun at all I'd rather spend more money keeping the off the people's backs that are watching it by putting something that maybe we only put up for events that is a sale like that that maybe a little bit cheaper but then at least blocks the Sun so people sitting there up behind them it Shades all the seating to me that's a better benefit to the residents that are going to be going to the show and spending a bunch of money on the the water have some sort of a sale on the West Side to Shield why Wasing the southide cuz no I mean for the band itself for the for the I'm not worried about the band they're getting paid to perform I'm guessing so isn't there like some Des characteristics that can help like naturally you said that like the sound better too this band shelter like that they will put up Pas and they speakers there so can I ask you what what's the appetite for Budget on something like that because we can explore a be less than $102,000 it's going to you think it would be less than absolutely think it would I don't think the budget you've shown here without a doubt out of line for that but that's me I I again I mentioned this before you call a guy like Shermer and you say hey Rick what's this but we don't do that that's the problem that's the problem we well call call Shimmer up call Rick and tell him to come bit on this I guarantee you probably get two of them for that number it's in the flood plane right so you're not talking Wood Construction you're talking metal welded something with a roof on it well or or concrete or or concrete right but I don't think that affects your price a whole lot it's the rest of the structure that's going to eat it up do we did that answer your question like what we well it sounds like you want something for 100,000 but I'm not I don't know that you can build it for that I I honestly we're not changing the size of the the performance area itself right you've got adding to it you've got $180,000 block going in for the performance area too yeah the the front of the more pavement more concrete and that's is that stamped colored concrete or what okay I see it now it doesn't have to be you just it's just colored brown there to be but it's going to be contiguous with it's going to be flush with the yeah and that that's the is too small as it is so that'll help and you've got $180,000 budgeted I don't see a problem with that budget for this for this and what you're trying to do but my point is is if we're able to get like Paul does more out of it all yeah because he's saying you got 100 left for the we're under budget with the $180,000 he's got budgeted now right under budget by canas thing yeah so but if he comes to me and says the wood the what you're talking about with a permanent like roof is going to cost twice as much then we might as well do this and just buy two canas replace have a I I'm okay with my point is I'm okay with either but the only goal of this is to keep water off of the band in my mind that's the goal of that if we want to provide shade I would rather see provider with people attending the concert than the band members themselves yeah well if it's raining nobody's showing up anyway anyway if it's raining so why do we need it all so the question would be if it does rain and the band there they will all all performers want some sort stage they all do I got a neighbor kid likes to perform free so who's being cheap hard time getting anybody to come is with a no to the expanded seating you do not want to spend more money on on Limestone well Grand go to the2 modifi I thought it was yeah modified from this 42 for 35 blocks so the previous plan had it all extending this way can't really do that because of the topography um so I modified it to just add to the edges of the existing so it would be identical um but yeah it's it's a chunk of change I have comment that culan sent me because he's computer died um he said can we change it to concrete and have a limestone face to retain the look yes for about double I was going to say you might have D this what was question so I just posing the question yep cuz I'm I'm guessing I think we just shop around for the blocks and you bite the bullet and you do it I'm going to write this time what time is it 10 3 26 24 101 just spend the money care spend it bite the bullet like it oh you're already in like you said you're already into it well that's my point is we're already into this because that was his made before if there are alternatives that would look naturally to shift to I'd be very open so so what do you need but you're still thinking that to have a building there to have a roof 100 Grand is going to cut it I I don't know what you would do cheaper than the canvas type structure that I really don't like is shown I I don't think you can do a please don't make it red or permanent roof type structure neon green NE you never got a number out of Albertville did you yeah there did you get a number out of that yeah 136 grand for what for that building up there do you know how big it was it's it's 30 by 60 yeah maybe not I don't know if it's that big it might be 24 by 6 24 by 60 what year was it about uh 2018 before Co so price is twice as much yeah so that that it's a nice it's finished off and the rafters and I mean it's nice so is that worth $250,000 to $300,000 to you why why is it worth that because it was bid in 2016 and it's bigger than yeah 2018 2018 2018 yep have to be that big it's almost a decade old now that's the we can explore it I'm just I'm very skeptical that we can do something cheaper than the option that I put in front of you yeah I think it's worth exploring I don't think GNA be cheaper but I think no it's definitely not gonna be cheaper because you have to pay it's be by the salale and is going to be that put the to me it's a value thing so if it comes up but it's mayor C I look into it Paul that would be great if it if the costs come back and you low and you it's going to be double the price we're going to go okay that's not or or maybe we do but did you have an email correspondence perhaps so you could for oh yeah yeah I can send you the contact get in elville it was done in 2018 and it was done by the Lions I believe so the city just has to Ure it yep so can I motion that we move forward to get better drawings and estim Tighter design whatever term we want to use we move this I motion move this forward the next step so we get closer to get a bit um what about the uh SE the um seaing huh Stones seating no the uh Alternatives the park in show all three Alternatives we going to lump that in yeah there's three Alternatives listed just let's see all three of them um you're talking about for the picnic area correct the picnic shelter and East parking area the sand volleyball and the west parking area CU we're going to have to decide whether basically I think it's come down to do we want the pic shelter on East parking area or do we want the sand volleyball and the west parking area because we can't get all three but we can get either one or two based on cost so we won't be able to know until the estimates come back in and we can see what that looks like and that again we go in front of Parks Commission before it all this stuff we get in front perfect so we're going to have this in a week sure to get next week deal the bullet did you motion yet I motion I second it there you go all right and that's for the other two all right um just LC St this just Ste we one more left we still got the one this one's very simple any more discussion on that all those in favor say I I I all oppos say no all right let's go back our this is Ion Gardens now right yeah we're going I own Gardens keep it under 50 Grand make a motion it sounds good just keep it under budgeted and you're but as a side note we need to find a way to to not let this happen again I I I well Zach this was candle Zach and I talked about this and I and calling City staff out but this is probably stuff we should have dealt with 6 months ago so as I feel like we're rushing through this to get to it so we get it done this year and I would like to see it done this year all of these like all of these parks and so we just need to make sure that we're thinking further ahead when we're trying to plan these meetings out I think we've B it in March and April before yeah I think the mayor Cil I think the main thing for us is that we're trying we're now and not just moving forward steps like I mentioned before at the past meeting it's okay what does the council want I want to have discussion back and forth um and having more of a discussion versus just okay here it is just a Pro it um which may or may not be able to do done in the past I can't say yes or no but more say that we need more you guys need more time based on the discussion tonight I can tell you right now you need more time because if you would have saw this two meetings ago we would have probably had a different discussion tonight than the wi half a time I agree so you were talking about not taking in parks that weren't public parks so so we shouldn't let this happen again oh no I as far as what I understand happened with this yeah this one specifically is yeah frustrating um not yeah the specific speically the Allard and Cypress Co that one y yeah they just didn't want to deal with it and I I don't know how we fix that in the future I mean what happens if you know another HOA decides to bail Trails so I'll give you an example so say p view mat goes down you are now looking at Marty the pool boy well that's that literally that's what happens that was my example my wife you're welcome for that that might be a good thing and what would we do we would just fill it in and and be with it because the city can't do but that's exactly what happens what that's the one risk we have with HOAs is that when they own areas and they say okay we're just done and they go like this what it falls down to is it comes out of the city and the city has to then pick up where it left off and now you have to maintain it or fill it in or whatever yeah you just fill it in and sell it and put another house on it I yeah I I don't you got it y that's exactly what happens unfortunately I always back of the city to figure it don't sound like a bad I don't think you can fill it in because it' be per plan if it happens yeah we can't we can't put a house on there we'd have to where Pine Pine View Mets just for that example I'm using this as a total example that wasn't Park dedication the pool the pool house area acation that would be no that's private property yeah it's not it's to drive us back to I guard so this is the last one left all right people have questions CU we can just motion this one through the next step if no one has any questions or issues with it I how much money I can't see it we're over budget by 3,000 by the way it sits now so we're on 83 whatever so I'll motion that we move forward with this for better drawings and better estimates as as of The Next Step need a second on all of them or just need a second better better draw we're going to spend more money I don't know if we're spending money or not but that's what I'm told is the next step Park Benes in there and call it all right did I get a second you did for me any discussion on this thing oh he's offline uh Dave said that he is good with all of the parks okay any discussion all those in favor say I I I all those oppos say no motion carries 4 Z Paul keep it minimum been more than an hour if there are no objections we will be adjourned and we're Jed e e e e e e