e 63 uh we we will call the uh August 1st Planning Commission meeting to order uh first item of business is uh pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right do we need to do roll call or do we just note that Darren's not here you want to note that Darren is absent Darren is absent so far so far and no word on if it's a true absence correct okay all right uh next up on the agenda and role of the Planning Commission I'll just leave it at that for the residents to read uh and we'll move on to approval of the agenda any changes or Corrections no I make a motion to approve second we have a motion and a second all those in favor I I uh all those opposed motion motion passes 4 z uh next up on the agenda is establish meeting and officer procedures yeah so is thank you Mr chair I I believe this is M Le I don't remember having done this before so um in the city code it you know you're you all are appointed three-year positions and every year you establish a schedule where you elect a chair and vice chair as well as to establish the schedule on uh July July to July so I personally do not remember having done a schedule in the past but um you as you're aware we reigned in Conflict this year with with uh our 4th of July Planning Commission meeting following on a holiday which result in canceling the meeting so the goal is to try to figure this out ahead of time of either uh recognize conflicts and in reschedule or just cancel those meetings ahead of time uh So within your packet is a calendar for 2025 um the yellow squares are the regularly scheduled plan commission meetings which are the the first Tuesday or first Thursday of the month uh black squares are holidays and gray squares are dates where this room is not available either because of a council meeting or or a another commission meeting and as you might notice in the schedules we have close to a conflict on July again so I don't know what you'd like to do I guess my suggestion would be to reschedule for July what is that July 3rd meeting to July 10th instead the I would agree it's a that would be a Troublesome date at least for me yeah to meet yeah the the holiday date would be a or the July 5th would be a problematic for you is it July 5th yeah Saturday yeah yeah or not 5th Third 10th 10th so it's current 10 would work I think will work for you right as it sits the third would be challenging for me I would support just a shifting that one to the 10th I have no strong feelings I don't go anywhere so I'll be here either way I would yeah I would propose we we can move it to the I would propose move to the 10th and then um I mean I would like to see John if if you know if there's a need to not have a Planning Commission like we did in July sure I mean I won't know that till June right month month to month is more what I'm getting at um is in and be in favor of cancelling meetings as we need everyone's busy enough so make a motion to move that to July 10th second right are we going to do we want to make the motion to approve the calendar with July 10th yeah thought that was I think that was your intent that was intent all right so we have a motion in a second all those in favor I I motion passes 4 z um and then officers yep um so in previously it's uh it's been a little I'm going to say a little loose so yes um nend is that the commission would would uh recommend a chair and vice chair every year so this is serving July to July um how you guys would like to do it is up to you if it's a Voice vote or a secret pallot and correct me if I'm wrong right now I am chair and Darren is vice chair or that's what I recall that's what I recall yeah how long have those employ o M's been established just a year or has it oh it's for one year terms no I understand how long have you been chair and and Darren Vice chair just one year or did you serve in those capacities the year previous I think it was October three years has it been that long I don't know I'm going to say three um three-ish well no cuz Paul Kangas would have been okay we'll say two yeah he didn't leave that long ago um how long have you been on just since December so it would have been October is of last year but um I think Darren's been Vice chair for one year I think Paul was vice chair previously yes no I don't think I ever it was deao yeah I don't think we I don't think previous we addressed it okay yeah as formally can I make a motion to nominate you as our chair for another one-year term second you accept I accept Okay yeah fine with me all right to make a motion vote then um yeah we can vote on that all those in favor I I all those oppos motion passes 4 Z thank you Peter and vice chair if on that one it can we defer till Darren here and or next month in case he's got interest well or we can defer on both I mean we already passed the one but we did you haven't gotten a full term right you were October so we'll get you that full term all right that's what I that's what I think we can make a motion I'll make a motion to nominate Darren as Vice chair then I'll second all right we have a motion and second Darren as Vice chair all those in favor I all right motion passes 4 Z this is why you can't miss meetings we should have made him the chair all right uh and John did you have anything on procedures that you wanted to address or that Robert's Rules but you know I I did not provide you guys with a book for Robert's Rules order so this is based on your memory thank you generally follow Loosely yeah do we need to do anything on that one no all right we'll move on to the consent agenda uh the only item on there is the Planning Commission minutes from June 6th 2024 no comments I'll make a motion to approve those second we have a motion in second all those in favor I I motion passes 40 uh open form public comments limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items is there anyone here for open for anyone online for open Forum verify [Applause] hold on okay let's stop okay um I do not believe so I I'm going to have to go on memory I believe we have one person attending that's for a an item that's on the agenda all right oh well maybe not I we do have one person if uh there's anyone online that would like to speak if if you could just raise your hand or unmute yourself all right well with that we'll move into conso update no he was oh Nate did you have anything on sorry for just a reminder this is for non-agenda items oh that's not come on okay all right all right think we can move on with that we'll move into Council updates uh Mr Mayor there was a lot of them they were busy two months um so June 11th we had our initial BD discussion um I'm not sure I can summarize that if you're curious you might just want to watch it um talked about West ter territorial infrastructure I think that was really focused on water on the West Side um and and ways of getting it uh farther west talked about the Dayton the two intersections on either side of the interchange um as to mechanisms for getting it paid for and what we want to do with those General consensus was that the the Southwest one should be entirely covered by um the development uh since they're the only ones that need it and then the Northwest Northeast one would be mostly covered by um the the uh businesses in the area but said he would have to kick in some and then uh there was a discussion about um oh the the Eda getting their their over the years their their um founding documents uh were mishandled so we basically um set up a plan to redo those founding documents just to kind of clean that up we approved a police retention incentive um that was June 11th June 25th was we appointed uh the uh planning and one of the park Commissioners um we had two openings in Parks only one reapplied but later on I think in in one of the subsequent meetings we did have two applicants and I'll I'll I'll cover that when I get to it uh braver Trails um Second Edition that was approved final plat um and then there was an encroachment issue I think I don't remember if you guys had covered in previous meetings but there was Landscaping in the right away um that was not really a big deal final plat on NDA on the Sundance greens 11th um the iup for the chickens uh we approved that um blue stone properties concept plan that went over but as well as it went over here not at all um there's just there was just too many problems with it um even though it was a concept plan there was no vote but we made it clear that it would need a lot of work and plus it's as you guys had pointed out it's in the wrong uh staging area um a lot of discussion on the Shany concept plan that was a large lot uh thing on on um those 104 acres and that didn't end up um with any direction really but um I think pretty much all the conso was in favor of of moving forward it's just a matter of how we can mechanize it there was some discussion about another egg Zone um then it devolved into the 10 acres versus four question uh DCM Farms we were uh pretty much along the same lines you guys had when you looked at it um I think there was a discussion that there would not want to be any Apartments uh but um as i' mentioned at the last Planning Commission or the last council meeting that council is close to pushing us to forward per acre and so uh that might help us get get some of that density somewhere uh py development concept plan that followed pretty much the planning commission's discussion um we did approve the driveway aprons that was also a I think a 3 to2 boat or was a 4 to one it was I don't remember it was the same saw 41 I thought yeah it was 41 that's right Henderson I think um yeah and we went to July 9th um another that was a there was a work session on long-term plan just getting equipment in there and figuring out where things needed to be that was a long um detailed discussion uh three ref Park gave us an update we talked a little about a little bit about um we have some extra pavement management dollars and there was some discussion about Paving the the the parking lot down here at the park but I think what we're going to do is wait and uh and see what the they're they're Paving is it John they're Paving the road or what um we we got lucky so we have a road project that came under bid pretty significantly so the discussion was can we do something else with that savings can we peeky back or something um what else uh Magnus veterans Foundation is having an event this this late summer and they wanted to they had a a formal request to wave fees which we approved um that was the ninth and then finally the 23rd another long discussion on the budget and then I uh somewhat linky discussion on the large assembly permit um and uh that's there was some work Direction given but um that's going to be coming back I think next meeting or the meeting after and then the park commissioner we did appoint a new person to the park Commission I will'll probably butcher her name I think it's Kaa Chambers so that's that let's good any questions for no questions all right moving on to item nine public hearings first item is interim use permit for home extended business 13551 Norwood Lane thank you Mr chair okay let see how this works okay uh so the first item it as you pointed out this is interm use permit for home extended business located at 13551 Norwood Lane so this is the next street over from City Hall uh the applicant is Nathan and Megan yansy uh they are proposing to build an accessory building which would be used uh for a homeschool Cooperative so this is the business um the building would also be used as uh garage space so again uh the property is about 2 acres in size of the accessory building would be built somewhere in the northern area of the property um for the school cooperative and I don't believe we have anything that's like this that that I'm aware of in Dayton um they're planning on having about 20 students uh this the school would be operative 3 days a week uh based on the R2 zoning District in that property size they're limited to about a 2,000 ft building um see critical areas for this application it as mentioned the city code allows one driveway per property uh so either the existing driveway would have to loop around the the new building or abandon this driveway and construct a new driveway out to the street um and then also being that this building would be occupied uh by people it it there's other building regulations uh applicable to this that would not be applicable if it were just a garage but all that's related to the building permit not the interm use permit um as with all interm use permits for home extended business there is a 5-year expiration on it so the applicant is here to answer any questions otherwise I I may also um I should mention this is a public hearing there was a no that was published in the Press newspaper as well as mailed to Property Owners within 500 ft of the project all right any uh addition initial questions for staff yeah I do have one um we received an an email from the applicant uh kind of clarifying the purpose of the pole building to satisfy City requirements to have a two-car enclosed parking space not just for the co-op can you explain that a little bit cuz it looks like the home itself does have a two-car garage yeah so in the packet includes a a photograph of the house it's a little picture is a little dark so it's hard to tell what what is what um the garage there's an attached two-car garage that was converted into living space And So currently the house does not have a a functioning garage okay that's not up to code though isn't it required okay uh you you so every home is required to have a two-car at least a two car garage so how did that get approved then I wasn't oh so it it's yeah I would say that the garage is contingent upon um the final of the uh the home the garage conversion I have no initial questions yeah that clear that clears up my question okay would the applicant like to come forward and please state your name oh right than chair please state your name and address for the record we are Nathan and Megan yany all the address in reference is 13551 Norwood Lane North um thanks for for seeing us um we um our long time residents of Dayton we've um lived in Dayton dating back to 2011 um we uh homeschool our kids we have six kids um last year we decided to um try to form a community of uh other homeschoolers and uh we thought it would be cool for our kids to kind of learn uh with each other and together um and we found uh some families that go to our church and we formed uh this group uh we get together just 12 hours a week uh 85 days total in the year um and we have two licensed teachers who happen to be parents of the students um we were contacted by the city and told that we need a a permit because there is money exchanged because we pay the teachers for their for their time um so that's why we're we're here today um the building in itself uh is more so to satisfy the city's requirements for a two-card covered space um back in 2020 we did approach the city um and apply for a permit and plans to convert our two-car garage into additional living space when we lived at Norwood um everything was approved all the plans were approved we were not informed of a two-car cover garage space um we were contacted in October of 2023 and told that we needed to build an additional garage space so that's uh the reason for the garage and then we figured we kind of fit it to also accommodate the the group Gathering so um yeah it's the the H School Co-op has been really a blessing to our family it's a a great family's great kids um you know we have uh two phenomenal teachers uh kids have a great experience like I said it's uh just 12 hours a week 85 days total in the year that we get together are you currently living at the address we are we are not currently living at that address but we are in the process of moving to that address okay because that's one of the requirements for home for home occupation can I ask more from the city said do we know who uh about the 2020 it was approved without the parking do we know what happened in there um yes I I couldn't we've had enough Staffing changes I I couldn't say it in great detail what all was best that it's a long story um but the bottom line is is that the city met with the anses a couple weeks ago and we are working through a lot of those issues okay and this will I believe clean clean that issue up thank you for that what's the proposal for the driveway concern then of only having one access yeah so for the the driveway our plan is essentially to uh what John said to connect it to the existing driveway all right is the 85 days like so is it like five days a week for like X number of weeks or is it like just two days a week for the school year or something like that like what's the what's the Cadence of when kids are coming and getting dropped off I'm sure some concerns are traffic and you yeah so we meet Mondays Tuesdays and Thursdays from 9:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. okay we start September 9th we have quite a few breaks uh in between but we go on an extended break on December 12th and then resume on January 9th I believe it is okay what is your um it mentions I'm assuming you'll have a bathroom cuz you've got kids they will need to use restroom um and it kind of mentions that it may or may not hook up to the current septic system have you explored that do you know what's we haven't gotten that far yet um I think that's we we haven't gotten to the point of like actually talking details of the building we were meeting with the contractor early next week okay and I think we'll get closer to that but um yeah if there are any any updates that we need to do to the septic system that's something that we're prepared to do at that time it does mention that you do actually have access to the sanitary sewer along the north property line is that yes I'm going to lean on Jason a little bit so the the property currently has a well and a septic system there is a sewer main that runs along the north property um I don't know from where to where but I don't have not sure the extens it is in the it it is so my intering none of these properties in the area are connected to sewer but it it is availableon that makes it I thought that was are fairly deep I I'm not I haven't oh I haven't looked at this project so I'd have to dig into it from a sanitary connection standpoint if they connect the out buing the accessory building to the sanitary does the house then have to be connected as well or can they have septic on that I don't know um I I don't yeah the short answer is I don't know that's something we should strongly consider just with you know half the property being connected half not right I believe the septic system was put in 2022 or replaced in 2022 no it hasn't been replaced since we've owned it okay so we okay so it may need an upgrade just period depending on how long it how old it is potentially yeah Y is so if it is also a two-car garage and that's actually its first and foremost function how much space does that actually leave for the school if it's a 2,000 depends on how big a how much space is for the car so you know 2,000 square ft is about the size of an eight car garage so I mean it it's okay there's space and the the actual size of the building is still in question as well so we it can be up to 2,000 but it might not beat okay I have no further questions at this time any other questions for the applicant is this kind of a standard pole metal pole building that you're thinking of then or what's the we're thinking metal pole building okay M um do we have standards that it has to match the aesthetic of the house it has the same color siding and rof yeah but that can be kind of hard cuz pull metal buildings do not have as many color options as your house does yeah so even though it might be light gray and your house is light gray they might not match and you might not have a choice on that but the code does say it has to have a matching sighting and rough yeah and the house is black so it shouldn't be too hard we we plan to have be okay yeah that we used to at some point have a requirement that the slopes be consistent although I don't know if we remove that or that wasn't you didn't see that I didn't see that when I I just went through it myself so have a but I'm also zoned egg and you guys are zoned residential so there might be some but for for egg at least it has to match color for the side and the roof so those are my the restrictions I was under and it could be taller I believe than the existing house not not for this District so it's limited to I think it's 35 ft in height of the the height of the house whichever is smaller all right any other question clarifications before we open a public hearing on this no not at this time all right thank you we may call you back thank you thanks uh 7:00 we will open the public hearing for this item if you wish to speak on this item please come forward and Earth I you from Google Earth good even name and address please Robert and Paula Irvin 12465 137th Avenue North so just before I get into my my notes here um I'm just wondering um is there zoning that there should be an attached to car garage or garage to the home is there a like a does a city have a rule no no you you do not have to have an attached garage be attached or detached okay all right so uh we live directly north of this proposed homeschool Co-op business we've lived in the area for 35 years and are one of the originals in this neighborhood and have lived on and live on the corner lot we are strongly opposed to this business being permitted in this neighborhood one this this proposed bu business will be adding more traffic to to our neighborhood we already have increased traffic due to two developments that have been built by the access points to our neighborhood one off South Diamond Lake Road the other is to the west of Pine View on 137th for some reason cutting through our neighborhood gets to gets you to one of the other streets faster um two uh we're concerned with the parking on the street and because of blind spots uh to vehicles and pedestrians even though they state that they will be dropping off the dropping off will occur in driveways we all know that doesn't always happen um and the concern with snow removal in the winter if these cars get parked on the street um third if vehicles are parked in the yard um will they have to be parked on a driveway um will they be parking on the grass um as they have been done at this residence in the past uh concerns with uh Vehicles leaking fluids as we all have walls and personally I do not want to be looking at a parking lot from my backyard onto this property if I understand the notes uh from the Planning Commission commission uh commission's agenda PDF the hours of operations will be from 1 from 9:00 a.m. to 1 Monday Tuesday Thursday we are actually going to be retiring in a few years and I am concerned about the noise uh the noise um also concerned that the number of students might possibly increase they're saying 20 could one day it just end up oh we have 25 now and I would hope you guys would um take that into consideration uh there is a gully um that fills with water near the proposed build building site um is a fence going to be required for this to keep people safe that would be an added cost we are just talking about the septic system um is there going to be a need to increase um the this due to the additional people using it other than the family use um seventh in my understanding is this family bill will be required to live at this address and I'm wondering how this will be enforced um I really want to to make that a point that this isn't they're if they say they're going to do it then they need to do it um and will it be considered homesteaded or is it going to be considered a business I'm not sure about that so and um is it are they only allowed one business I've seen that this that on social media from other people that they have had other businesses and I'm wondering if it's going to be allowed if they just have the one business and it was a I believe it was a you we haul your junk kind of business um so my thoughts for you as the com as the Planning Commission is to please take the concerns of the families here today speaking against this home Co-op or homeschool Co-op business seriously we live here and we have to see this every day home co-ops can be run at churches communities community centers libraries not in residential areas thank you thank you thank you thank you hello my name is Jamie wisuki my husband Mark we live at 13600 Norwood Lane in Dayton right across the road from the property as shown um yeah I have to be like Paula get my notes together here I know we're talking about the iup not necessarily the building but I think the two go together as we've already said because the garage has been converted into a living space so I have some questions that kind of concern the building and the iup um so let me see I I had some questions about the parking as well to make sure I know it says that they will be in the driveway and that they won't be on the street but from what we've seen um the last year or two we have been see seeing a lot of cars on the street now the driveway isn't big enough so um we do want to make sure that that is enforced and how will the city enforce it if it isn't happening um there's also been a camper parked on the property and I want to know if that camper is also going to be housed in this building which will take up more space and I think you already asked it as far as how much will be for the homeschool business and how much will be for garages itself so I want to make sure that if that goes forward that the kids have enough space but that this is truly a garage and addressing that issue as well um let's see what else okay so the location of the building it is near the Wetland and it does flood during the Spring some so we have to make sure that it is backed up off of that enough to handle that um there are gutters that go right all the water comes down the road and it goes into there so we have to make sure we're not disturbing the sewer system or the the gutters that go into that wet land as well um I think that was a little bit of dress though when the proposed driveway will be the current one and not the new one if we go with the new one I'd like you to keep that in mind that where the gutters are we are as a neighborhood occasionally out there in the winter cleaning those gutters out to keep the water flowing down our on heavy rain days the water does back up into our driveway not not too bad but occasionally it does happen um the size of the building I think you addressed that you said it would be only it would be 2,000 square ft height or less okay that's good um the well in the septic that is a big question for me first of all the building how many bathrooms will it have how many sinks will it have will there be a kitchen or a eating facility is my concern is it's going to turn into another living space and we don't want a living space so please make sure that is addressed as well and also then with that said the septic um he said that it may the current one may need to be revised or it could be hooked up to the city one if the septic is going to be new will that disturb the Wetland if you're I mean if you're going to connect to city water would it disturb the Wetland because I believe when that went through there our property had the easement for it to go through and then um I think it was 12 ft down is what they had to dig before they hit water so we don't want the wet land Disturbed and it's finally growing up nice and beautiful and we enjoy our frogs and crickets and lightning bugs at night so um just wondering how that would H happen if they had to do that if you don't do that as far as the septic goes can the septic handle all of this a new one maybe would have to do it and the well is that going we all have well water is that going to affect our wells if we add again how many bathrooms and everything else and will the water table change anything for us is do any studies need to be done about that if there is going to be another well on that property um if it is a septic that has to be an additional one would it be a conventional or Mound I don't know do they even do conventionals in the city anymore I I couldn't answer that okay no it would be a okay to be compliant because they're ugly and our kitchen and our living room face right out to where this building will probably be so um I I don't know how how that'll go too um will the driveway going in will it be Rock will it be concrete black top grass what what are they planning to do with that the grass with the camper this year didn't work out so well it got buried once so I don't again I'm sure there's city ordinances that that say what have to happen there um and is there going to going to be a turnaround property or turnaround area for the parents on the property when they pick up their kids and where will the teachers Park since there will be two teachers at the place um I didn't see lighting considered for this I know what's being done during the day but again this is where it crosses over into the new building will there be any type of lighting around the building at all and what hours will it be on We enjoy our night sky the little bit that we can get so I I that it was kind of a concern um I think it said somewhere in the agenda notes that the if the large it's compared to large inhome dayc carees and with that it's a 12 person so I'm not sure why we're expanding to 20 but I I think we should stick with what the ordinance or the resoning or whatever is to keep it at 12 and is the 12 12 additional or does that include the fam's children that are being schooled Plus and then whatever number to hit up to that number so just I I don't want to confuse the two so home daycare is totally separate that doesn't require a permit so but we allow home day carees up to 12 kids okay okay I just saw it somewhere in the minute notes and I wasn't sure how we got from 12 to 20 and and what how that was counted okay thank you um will all the schooling be done inside of the building or will there be outside too I'm assuming there will be outside I mean kids like to get outside and play uh since Co I work remotely and the I work 4 days a week from home and the days that the schooling is on are the days that I'm home so with the traffic and the children I'm worried about the noise I like to have my windows open and um it I'm just that's a concern for us to make sure that the noise is kept low um I think someone else had said it uh a little bit different though but if any of the ordinances or rules are broken and not followed what recourse do we have and do the neighbors have it can it be revoked is it the city we've had this with the living space in the garage and it's taken many months and we still aren't there yet so that is a concern for us as to if we go forward and it gets taken to an extreme how do we how do we take care of it um I feel I think in our notes to it showed that property value wouldn't be affected I feel it will actually for our home because we are directly across the street from where it will be and I think two acres in Dayton is a really good thing but two acres from in Dayton with a business right across the street with people coming and going is not quite as desirable so I think it will hurt our home value some um we're comfortable with having a building and a garage we we're all for it so that's not a problem I like homeschooling with kids I don't think that's a problem either it's just I don't know that it necessarily belongs in a residential area with other people's children that aren't living on the property that it y thank you thank you thank you thank you anyone else anyone else like to come forward so name and address um Jeff Johnson Gail Johnson 12590 135th and a half Avenue North so our property is right behind um you can see my pool right there um I'm right behind there and we we've had a lot of problems with the property and uh with the grass growing real long and uh then we find out that um he had a a young lady renting his garage with no permit it was not approved as far as what we could tell um from what we understand is uh he's in a lawsuit with them right now with her that she's suing him because uh he kicked her out yes they illegally made her vacate the property because it was not up to code with heating and the electrical and I work for a school district and with kids being inside of a garage what is that going to look like you know you've got gas powered vehicles in this garage you have students in that garage and we are totally opposed to this yeah and they've said everything that all the neighbors are all opposed to it we're all opposed to it we're not opposed to the homeschooling I think it's a great thing for people to do we're totally for that we just don't want it in in a business like that in our backyard and all the neighbors are opposed to it so we just wanted to say that thanks it's a residential area and this is actually a business and are they profiting off of this business they said that they're paying teachers but I mean this should be in their Church like other co-ops are and in like businesses in these um strip malls in that not in a residential area thanks thank you name an address please hi Paul Ben Court Holly Hamilton uh 13560 Norwood where the property with the driveway straight across from the other driveway um I'm going to try and just go through my notes sorry it's on my phone my printer un Cooperative earlier um I think a lot I want to reiterate I don't want to reiterate a lot of the stuff that has been said which I agree with but for us a lot of the concerns again we I have no problem with homeschooling with a home business I understand that's one of the advantages but the combination of the exist like the previous disregard for the rules and regulations that have been shown in combination with uh sort of what that's resulted in we're concerned that that will lead lead into a nuisance and as far as the property values go we recently moved here uh cuz we really like the area the two acres and I have to say I wish there was I would have known there could potentially be a 20 person School across the street before I signed those mortgage papay um so in regards for the number of students um I'm a little bit concerned because it's part of the reasoning in approval was that 20 students was permittable because it's characteristic of the neighborhood to have 12 because the home daycare and I understand that's not necessarily the same thing but I would argue that the Zoning for R2 is for 990,000 Ft properties larger which would make 2 Acres the lower end of that so I would argue that using the size of the property to allow twice of what is a characteristic to the neighborhood is kind of odd when properties are on the lower end of what's characteristic for the neighborhood which is something that I believe would affect property values when people look at sort of the zoning regulations when purchasing that the house also I'm concerned about the homesteading and the home property actually being used um you know this isn't anything that you know people are free to do what they want but the yanes do have a another property which they currently live at in Dayton which is 7 Acres and they built a custom home in 2022 and it has the second home now it's a family of eight and they're saying that they're going to move back into this 970 ft home and have a 20% school there it seems unlikely that people would choose to do that but I just would like to have certain assurances that first they are actually living there and watching over the property because based on the way things have been done in the past with the rental things didn't go so well without a lot of oversight and that goes to the part with the the parking the school and how airan can come together so basically because of the unpermitted uh living space garage being converted into a living space there's nowhere to park the cars and in the month that we were here the people renting the property at any point had four to eight cars parked in the driveway as well as usually on the street usually in states of disrepair you can go still see um there's oil stains on our side of the street their side of the street so the idea that without them having a more detailed plan and anything else that we're going to have a 20 person business that if it's conducted in the same way we're looking at 20 cars parked like in front of our driveway which isn't something that's desirable so in essence I again have no opposition to the idea of a business you know if I want to have business I would like to be doing it I would like to you know follow the rules but I also would have liked to see some good faith measures by the yanes to show that they are going to from now on be following the rules doing things with and what's characteristic neighbor movement in a way that won't decline property values and so I would ask that you know we have some sort of confirmation that they actually have homest set of the property before the approval that they have detailed plans showing that they're not going to be out of Permitting that they have everything that's already been discussed and that also the amount of students be lower to 12 which is fitting with the neighborhood as the zoning was developed in the way that it is now right thank you for your time thank you thank you and we do have one person online if there's no one else in the audience this is Nate here for yeah this item this item all right go ahead uh and let's have Nate and I I'm just for uh needs testimony we would like to urge the commissioner excuse me to not approve this is perit on Norwood these community members repeatedly violate rules and we have no faith that they will change their ways and will be ongoing headaches for us in our city anyone else in the audience here for this item all right with that at 7:22 I'm going to close the public hearing um and open up for discussion do we want the impact seems like there was a lot of questions posed by the neighbors that might be nice if the applicants were able to respond to those would would the applicants like to come [Music] back hello I I don't think you're taking notes but I mean you got framework of what that your neighbors are concerned I think um yeah it's uh it's it's it's really unfortunate um and disheartening for us uh because uh all of these neighbors who we've you know there's there's a couple that we've we've actually met and had an opportunity to talk with and we knew when we previously lived at this residence um but everyone is very well misinformed I'm not sure where people are getting their information about us as a family we we do uh we are very public because my wife uh does social media um so uh you know we're we're open book we we we don't you know hide our lives uh um but as far as uh the city code violations the things that they are hearing which I can only assume that they're hearing from City staff they are very well misinformed um since we've lived in this city since and back dating back to 2011 we've uh always followed the guidelines to the te um we've uh uh applied for permits we've had discussions with City staff regarding our plans and what we want to do with with the renovations or whatever we do with buildings and um and we've only moved forward with those things being approved um um so uh you know obviously uh the question was posed as to we have a 7 acre property um you know we built a brand new home um and we are doing something very unconventional um and it's very sad and a hard thing that we're navigating as a family uh but we do have we're surrounded by um neighbors who have been very nasty to us since day one since we bought the place in 2021 um the final walk walk through I was approached by one of the neighbors and told that we don't want you here um and this was before we even lived on the property um so we made the hard decision to walk away from a property that is our Dream um and move back um to Norwood um because we had a we had a really good experience there um I think that the neighbors that are here today that know us know that um there's absolutely no issues when we when we lived at the property um I can't speak for what occurred when we when the property was rented out um we um as far as a c there's no camper currently parked at the property that was the previous tenants um uh camper um and as far as a lawsuit goes any anyone in the United States of America can sue anybody for anything um so we did get sued but the judge completely dismissed it because there was nothing there um so I'm not sure where again people people are being misinformed and getting wrong information um but uh like I said we homeschooling is something that we're we're passionate about as a family um these are um you know six seven other families that we're involved with that we know from from church or are close friends of ours we all have a lot of kids so that's why the number seems bigger um but um we just we you know we just we get together in community um um and I think that the state of Minnesota um has no issues with homeschool co-ops the state of Minnesota has no issues with um people gathering on their own properties um so the city of Dayton shouldn't either so how many families incorporate those 20 kids I mean you have six of them yeah I um I couldn't yeah we have six of them five of our six are a part of it um I I couldn't tell you after to I I want to say round six six families total um but that's I'm just that's a complete guess I would have to actually look at that's fine what it what is your response to your neighbor concerns about traffic parking like how do you imagine if they're using your driveways or turn around like those kinds of questions that are being posed you have comments about that sure yeah yeah so our our plan is that the the driveway we would extend the driveway the current driveway over to where the building would be um there'd be kind of like a bigger paved area and we would use black top pavement um and then it would wrap around to connect back to the driveway um these families they uh we have we do have two licensed teachers again their parents so they Park and they stay there uh the rest of the parents drop off and they leave they come back at 1:00 p.m. to pick up the kids so it it really it really is kind of just a really laid-back experience is not um you know these kids are great we do spend some they spend some time outside um you know in nature that's one of the the main reasons why we want um to use a home as opposed to a commercial space or a church building are there requirements John for distance from the street for this driveway extension they a lot of nice trees in this property I'm just curious where that driveway would go the I mean the short answer is no it it it's the same requirements as any other house so it's a 5ot step back from the property line except where it it meets the street yeah okay so what um one of the things that I wasn't clear on um if if approved when would you uh start using this for homeschooling uh we would what's what's the plan yeah the plan is to use it as soon as it's it's completed um upon approval so um in the interim we are still kind of figuring out where we would um where we would land uh right now um we're supposed to start September 9th so um we're kind of still figuring that that out cuz I imagine I mean there's there's a process here of building permits building application construction materials all that stuff so I mean next year is not unfeasible for at this point this year seems a little quick a month Yeah well yeah the we we have no expectation that the building will be completed by September 9th um so and I think we'll we'll learn more from the contractor when we meet with him on Monday um at the site but yeah we again it's kind of up in the air terms of when everything will be completed and what that looks like but again the building um the building is something that's going up regardless it it um it's not a it's not a hey if this is denied then there's no building um it's going to be a beautiful building by the way I think um you know i' I've worked in real estate for over 15 years um as a as a side business and um the property values would definitely go up in the area within within a with a building like that not something that would bring the property values down um and then also um home occupation businesses um such as this which is essentially a small group Gathering of people have no effects on property values as well from a um logistic standpoint how does the city assure that their living there and then what are the consequences if they're not living there sure so that was one of the concerns so in the resolution there there are six recommended conditions of approval if I can just either read or summarize this so uh number one is the home extended business shall be limited to the proposed accessory building the yard may be used recreationally um so the idea is that you're you're you're concentrating the activities in the building I you know you can still have kids out playing the yard and whatnot uh second or two prior to operation the property shall be homesteaded by the applicants three prior to operation the home extended business shall comply with all building fire and Zoning codes four prior to operation the applicant shall construct a driveway accessing the accessory building uh and number five prior to operation property shall comply with residential parking requirements including a minimum of two enclosed parking stalls and two surface parking stalls the accessory building or Co-op may be used for enclosed parking alternatively a separate garage may be constructed for required parking prior to operation of the IEP so meaning if if the applicant wanted to build just the accessory building for the school itself and build a separate detach for detach garage that would be fine are they allowed to accessory buildings though uh up to three yes and then six the interim use permit shall expire in in 5 years or with a change in property ownership whichever is first and that's with every um IEP for home extended business is a fiveyear expiration you can always apply for a new one and the iup could be revoked if conditions are not met at any point going back to the the original question so yes if the these are the six conditions so assuming that these are approved if any of them are non-compliant um the council has the option of revoking the iup with findings so that that's the key there so findings mean um you know let's say if if uh ownership changes and the school is still operating that would be a reason or cause for revoking the IEP let me ask you this um because it doesn't you know it says that the property shall be homesteaded U but to kind of get to the root of the point of whether or not they're actually living there I know that's going to be really hard to prove anyways but item number one the home extended business shall you know it being a home extended business means that you must live there correct so if you don't live there it's not a home extended business iup would yes for be more or less from that standpoint sure okay can I just say so um I I just I I'm not sure why the um there's question regarding us living there um uh I think then we're we're we're quite questioning our integrity as a family which is very concerning for me because then we're basing that off of what information uh exactly um we're moving to the property we will be homesteading the property um because it's in our best interest to Homestead of property that we live in um so I I I I I'm not understanding fully the question on whether or not we'd be living in the property sure and and let me clarify that I'm not saying that you w be living there circumstances responding yeah that was not the root of my question the root of my question was more you know mechanics of it all right because circumstances change you know I mean you you know you may have all intent to live in it and you may very well live in it well you may decide not to and then at what point how do the Mechanics for the city work to then revoke the permit you may very well come in and say we don't live there anymore and we're done operating this and we can revoke the permit right not saying that in any way just kind of trying to think through the mechanics decide to move the the that would be that group would be moving with us going to our new location so cuz it's currently operating at your current or historically yes it was uh we had it at our current residence okay I think sometimes for me it's just more of having been an audience member with concerns about a neighbor not knowing what my options are it makes you feel powerless and if I know well these are my options it Mak made me feel better about like okay well then then I'm fine like even though I'm still a little cautious I know I have options like that so I that was why my question was is I've been on the other side of things feeling like well what do I do if they break the rules like what are my options so just knowing that everyone has like cuz we're here for everybody right and so we want everyone to be comfortable and happy and have the best like we all love Dayton we all want to live here and be happy so um one question I my biggest I would say concern is I'd like to see a more fleshed out plan like where exactly does the building go where exactly is your septic going to go are you going to have to hook up to city sewer instead where exactly is that driveway what is the screening going to look like if you're going to have kids and I mean you want to let them just run around are you going to put up additional fencing so for me I just would like to see a more fully fleshed out plan um not that I I think it's I'm fine with it it was just I'd like to see more details um very and if you can get a pool building up in a month and a week man that's up to you again we we have no expectation on timeline we're not we're not we have no expectation that this is going to be ready by September 9th um you know the reason we moved forward with the permit is because um the the the the building is tied to this the hom School Co-op but you know if we if we decided to host these people in our home that would look different you know okay so so I guess that's where we're we're kind of stuck I'm not understanding the tying the building and the the The Homeschool Co-op together um and another thing I just want clarification on is um we were told that the reason that we needed to apply for a home uh occupation permit was because money was being exchanged uh is that correct even if it weren't so essentially you you have a business whether it's profitable or not it is none of the city's concerns right so so I just just so I'm getting clear understanding um if we decided to host small groups from our church or over at our house on a regular basis that's something we would need a home occupation permit for um no so the key here is that it's a detached garage that I'm going to call it a garage that you're using if you had a homeschool out of your house um that we'd think we'd look at that as being an administrative home business and so you you would not be here you'd still need a permit but it would not be reviewed by the Planning Commission Council so if you were hosting say a church group out of your house uh there's no permit for that um I know right now we're up up to a certain number of people so uh believe it's 50 that you'd be limited to yeah I just I just think that it's uh um you know I would ask the Planning Commission and the and our and our Council um to just um be aware of how far we as a city are reaching in terms of um um the freedom that people have on their properties um you know it is our home we do pay for it um you know we we're not um it's these homes uh are not in the newer residential developments there's quite a bit of space we're stretched out um which is why it's even Something That We're cons considering um so you know I I I just think it's it's something for us to to put into perspective and consider here is how much um Freedom are we taking away from our residents to uh to do the things that they love and to gather with the people that they care about question for you are any licenses required from the state of Minnesota you had mentioned that the state of Minnesota is in favor of of things like this and I know dayc carees are Li and go through a lot of inspections and home visits and and all of those things how how is that for in a home school like like what you're proposing are there anything is there anything like that no yeah so there's no uh guidelines from the Minnesota Department of Education regarding homeschool co-ops um the there is a form that all of our families fill out that uh indicates one that they're homeschooling and that there's a secondary instructor besides the parents that are going to be um instructing the student students uh so all of our families fill that out but um the Minnesota Department of Education has no issue with this and no um no guidelines um I will also note there is um there are a lot of other groups such as this uh that has across the country it's become a very popular thing um they're called micro schools um we don't refer to oursel as a micro school but we refer to ourselves as a homeschool Co-op because we're all homeschooling families um but there is a micro School in the city um that operates uh not too far from this residence as well um so that's just something else that I would um has to be taken into consideration as far as the question of why is it tied to the building I would just from my perspective if I were building a two-car garage that was only a two-car garage versus a two-car garage that also like it would be a very different building so that that that's why for me I feel like the conversation is worth having cuz you don't want to syn all this money into a much bigger structure than you need for parking and then have this whatever happens I'd want to know in advance before I Punk down that much cash and that's why that's why we moved forward with this application before we have everything solidied with the solidified with the building yeah y yeah cuz those look very those in my mind those buildings are very different looking um because as like you'll need heating you know if you're meeting over winter where I wouldn't necess heat a detached garage with just my cars so yeah yeah I mean there's a lot of building code that'll your Builder will inform you on too regards to occupancy and restrooms and right yeah the questions regarding the building and setbacks and all I think it goes without saying that that that's all things that go through City staff inspection you know Metro West you know those are all things that are going to be solid um before anything would were to go up so so so we I'm actually on the opposite side of the fence here of we don't have a fully fleshed out building plan for a home use building of this kind and so I'm actually not in favor of this right now because we don't know what the driveway is going to look like we don't know if the what how many bathrooms it's going to need or if it's going to hook up to septic what fire code is we just don't have the details that support that support that you can financially or physically do this and that it it's tied to the use along with um I I get the fact that you're you're coming here and trying to get us um before you move forward with it trying to get approval I get that fact because I wouldn't want to waste a ton of time I'm not ready to approve it yet because the details aren't there and that's that's where I'm at on this a site plan would would probably a site plan maybe maybe a concept sketch of we're going to do one bathroom we've looked looked at the septic size we've looked at and I think because that this the building is required for this home use home extended business to occur had the garage still been functional not been converted into living space and you could park there we probably wouldn't have this discussion but that did happen and this building is needed in order to really use the iup correct is that kind of how you that's the way I'm thinking about it I mean it I and I I get where you're coming from to of I mean if I were looking at a property and I if I ran a home home business um or intended to run a home business I'd want approval of the city before I did it right but and and there's a concept here but there's no there's no sketches showing where it's going to be located there's can I can I ask a question yeah I just let me let me finish and then yeah um and and it you know some of the concerns of the neighbors are we going to have to look at this what's it going to look like I mean those are valid concerns that are going to impact their lives too um and so just I think it would just help solidify concerns that people have sure yeah no um I think you know as far as the plans I I think we have City we have city building cods we have City guidelines ordinances for a reason so whatever we build is going to fall within the guidelines of what the city has in place we're not going to build anything outside of what is approved through through city council through the city staff through Metro West so for me I think it goes without saying that hey what we're looking at right now is are you guys going to allow us to gather with our friends and family um to educate our kids at our property um the building is going to fall within the guidelines of of City cold because that's why we have that that City cold there um this building is I don't I don't know if you've been in the area um but there are some pretty hideous buildings in the area um this is going to enhance the look of the area by far um there's a building just around the corner that the whole roof and everything fell through and it's been sitting there half of a building for the last two years as far as I'm concerned um there are other pretty big accessory buildings that the neighbors also have um so it's not going to be completely out of place um it falls within what the character of the area looks like and and I have I I I have no concern with an accessory building of this size being proposed on this size lot I mean that's one of the joys of of dating in these larger lot areas what I'm concerned with is is the building going to be sufficient once you add in the bathroom add in the the the classroom area add in the garage stalls is it going to fit the operation of what you're intending to do and that's why I'm Absol not yeah without without all those details I'm not I'm not in favor of this right now and that's kind of just where I'm at it's it's similar to we've we've had a lot of Home occupation come in over the last couple years um and a lot of them you know they have they have a sketch up of their here's where we're going to store our trailers or our equipment and their landscape business right um this this one to me one of the fellow Commissioners said it just doesn't feel fully fleshed out yet and so that's that's where I'm having a hard time with this can I ask a clarifying question for staff um so you said that if they did this out of their home instead of the accessory structure we wouldn't be here with this part of it correct CU this Perman is for a home home business and or home extended business meaning it's extended outside of the home into but if they had the 20 students and the two teachers and all this took place inside their home then that would just be that that would be that I mean there's still the concern of you know it does the bathroom function you know for 20 students as it would for a four-bedroom house but I just think that's something to keep like the only issue is that it happens to be in a building that's not physically attached if they if they added on a garage to their house and did it there we also wouldn't be having this conversation it's literally the fact that it's a detached garage it is and I would say so that the other per so assuming it's in the house it's limited to 30% of the H the home area so the house would have to be bigger potentially right so you know just say living room dining room kitchen as opposed to the whole house I just think it's important to keep that in mind though right and that and that's why I think it's more important for us to focus on the actual business itself or if we been calling it a business I know there was questions on are we making we're not making money we're paying money in if anything for this because it's something our kids love and the other kids love um but that that's why to me this makes a lot more sense to focus on what you're requiring us to do is to is to have a a home extended business application from my understanding because we are doing this activity on our property um if you're telling me if I just build an addition onto my existing home and we did we use that space for it and I don't have to go through this process then what is that do for the neighbors that have concerns MH so you know I I'm just I I think that we have to really take a step back and look at what we're doing um and uh the building itself can't be the focus um and if we're if we're and if we are focused on the building we have to trust that our our codes and our guidelines are there for a reason um it's the activity that we're here for um otherwise I can flush this whole thing out and we'll build an addition onto the house and we'll do it that way um this is not this is not a fun process it's it's extremely uncomfortable it's it's emotional you know we it's not fun I I I I totally get that in respect that that you're here tonight um and and unfortunately our home our home extended business iup is tied to an accessory structure so hand inand it is it is tied to the building I mean that was Nick that was the first point you brought up well I was just clarifying kind of where your thought process was necessarily on that um you know I think my thoughts it this is an interim use permit y that's what we're considering a use permit right I get I get that there's a separate building tied to that simply because it's you know maybe because of the the garage being remodeled and it does not meet the two car requirement so there is a separate building being built and then at that point they're saying hey we can utilize this building make it larger and run this out of out of that building too so I was just I was just trying to get my my facts kind of in order um my head is a little bit more it's an interim use permit in for me in my analysis of the situation I'm trying to focus myself on the use aspect of it yeah I'm in line with Nick um I mean if this building was built John has a 2,000 foot garage utility building it wouldn't be here either right because it qualifies for our accessory structure um guidelines it it was so again it depends on how the building is used so there's if it's just a garage if it's just there's different building codes if it's a garage versus if it's occupied so it's better to be upfront about what is the building going to for sure I'm just trying to building you know if the the size of the building fits the accessory structure requirements and then yes the use changes whether it's just a garage and or occupied and that's the use the building code that then kicks in Cod there regardless but right so to try to kind of rephrase this a little bit so with an interim use permit the way it's written in code is the intent is it's a permitted use with different conditions and then purpose the conditions are to try to alleviate any nuisance that might be created and so the way I would I would suggest the commission thinking about this is what potential nuisances might be associated with the use and what conditions would alleviate those concerns you know if it's parking um code does not allow on street parking that's associated with the home extended business that has to be on site um the driveway in the parking area has to be a hard service whether it's concrete or asphalt or pavers that's up to the applicant and and to be clear those are current codes of requir current Cod so there's nothing nothing specific about this and and and the concerns we've heard from the public um they're they're valid they're valid concerns right uh traffic parking noise all of those things but you know from my perspective There are rules and ordinances in place for those items and and I think um you know we we've heard some testimony of well you know these rules haven't been followed so then they won't be followed in the future um you know I I from my perspective I think uh you know I think the applicant deserves a chance to show that they can follow those rules and we can't assume that they will not follow those rules uh at least from my perspective I I I can't make that leap that those rules won't be followed but but I can make the leap that the city would enforce or the state or whatever agency those rules are a part of would enforce the rules that are in place and and if necessary the the iup would get pulled if if those you know if the conditions for the iup weren't met or city codes weren't met or regulations or any other law per se of of a different agency you know I I've got to believe that those would be enforced can can I ask a question on might be the applicant might be the city but I we heard that this was a rental last couple years um was there a rental license obtained and so um we the the the answer is no there was not a rental license obtained we applied for a rental license um and it was uh denied by by the city staff due to the garage situation which is at that point the first time we heard about the the required two guard garage uh requirement um which this was in October of 2020 no November maybe of 2023 um was the first time we did we heard about that and we applied for the permit and talked through the plans and got everything approved back in 20120 2020 um for the garage conversion so um I also want to make note that um this is this property is uh a a second property that we own in Dayton that we did the garage conversion with um so it was not a first incident where we um worked with the city staff and worked with Metro West and got plans approved to convert the garage into additional living space we did it in a prior property in Dayton and a couple years later we did it at this Norwood property um so again you know there there's and and I think uh like uh Dennis said is um there's a lot behind this um and we were um you know ready to bring it forth with uh to city council but we decided to have a private meeting instead um and um as part of the agreement we agreed to capitulate and um add the two card cover space at this Norwood property uh but there you know we we can't control what narrative is out there um I know it doesn't look good for us because of obviously what is being spread around but um you know I can I can I can assure you that um we have no intentions on breaking any city codes or guidelines trying to do anything sneaky we've always been very upfront I mean like I said our family is a open book um I'm pretty sure the the reason we're here today is because um someone saw on social media that we're doing this homeschool co-op on our land and reported it's a city staff and our response was wow we didn't know that that was a requirement so our our our mistake we'll we'll move forward and we'll apply for the application so there's there's definitely nothing that um I don't think we'd be dumb enough to share it all over the world if if we were trying to hide anything or knew that we were doing something wrong uh with that regard so can you clear so you you you requested a rental license it was denied but it was rented out anyway can you clarify that part for me yes um so we um so we when we lived at the at Norwood initially um when we finished the living space in the garage we did have a family member living in that space with us uh when we moved out to go to the um to where we're currently at now in laale um we had uh family friends that moved into into the home um we did not obtain a rentals license um at that point because city code says that if it's family uh you don't need a rental license um our mistake is in the transition at that point when the family moved out and then we moved family we moved uh friends from our church in we should have obtained a rental license I delayed it um and that's that is my mistake on that uh situation but when I did um move forward to apply for the rental license is when we found out about the two card covered garage space which was a huge surprise to us we uh H hired an attorney we went back and forth for quite some time uh regarding that that situation and and that's where we're at today okay thank you for clarifying that for me I guess I had one more question for the applicant you said you said 20 students is what you're planning for yeah you um we had 18 students uh this past year um the number 25 would be our absolute Max um we don't know exactly where we're going to land um especially one of the reasons why we're really trying to push this forward is you um you know families are making decisions about you know homeschool co-ops that they're going to join you know what they're going to do um obviously we're getting kind of late in the game close to close to things and um we're just trying to get some answers so we can give give those families some answers as well so recalling my days when I was looking at inhome daycare in the state of Minnesota um the I recall the requirement being that kids of the inhome don't count for the the number that they're that they're allowed to have um would you be opposed to let's just say a number of 15 of or or a number that's smaller than 20 but doesn't include either your own kids or the teacher's kids depending on how that's written um and and 15's I'm arbitrarily throwing that out obviously we there's probably some thought you guys need to put into that but um the thought the thought behind that being it falls more in line with what an inhome daycare license in the state of Minnesota is and if the were an inhome daycare you have six kids of your own you can have 12 that's 18 kids at an inhome daycare of you know obviously in home daycare you got to have certain number of kids to teach a ratio but it falls more in line with that as far as the number of students at this facility but an inhome daycare doesn't have to come through a get approved does it no no no I'm just I'm yeah yeah I I get that I'm trying to quantify the number so that we don't have 20 kids now but when his kids grow out of school and still running this it's not 20 new kids there's five what I'm getting at is there's five kids that are already coming here that would live here plus there's probably four kids give or take for for a teacher or two and so that's well the one teacher has four the other teacher has five so so that's 15E kids right there is is is tied to the the teachers so if we if we were to say you know besid staff and the homesteaded property no more than 10 kids I and I know that's harder to regulate but it gives an assurance that when those kids graduate you're not bringing in new kids and more kids and more families sure yeah yeah I mean we're we're we're 100% doing this because this is what fits for our family and we've invited others along the way with us um this is not we do not see this as a business we it's it's technically a nonprofit as a way to keep things clean with the money being transferred to the that's that's the only reason why we did it that way um but this is not something that um our our oldest she's in high school um she's not a part of this um so this is not something that we plan to continue to do once our kids graduate and go through it and that's that's kind of what I was getting at is this is not a long-term home use it right as a fiveyear exploration but but just but outside outside of the the permit which has the ex your intention to run this business is not a long-term it's a um that's why I was maybe trying to tie it a little bit to that as well is yeah yeah you're yeah you're right it our our plan is and really you know it to be honest with you it's a year-by-year thing I mean we've we've uh homeschooled for you know four years then we've gone to a private school for four years with our kids then we've gone back to homeschooling then we've gone back to a private school so we you know our and you know people may have very different opinions on how we we make decisions but it really is a year-by-year thing that we decide with our kids um next year this might not even exist you know in a month from now this might not exist we we might have all the families say Hey you know we we're we're we want to go a different direction this just really isn't different hey the ranch you know this new place is very different than the ranch you know so it really is I can't sit here and say that we would even need it for five more years we might just need it for one more year and yeah so that's kind of where we're at with it and and with that I mean I would also if if we were to approve this I would like to see a condition tied to the homeowners kids being part of that yeah so that that if your kids decide to go elsewhere other families aren't able to still you aren't able to rent it out to other families more or less yeah whether money is being exchanged or not sure yeah yeah I've worked in education for 17 years and I do not want to run a school out of my home so that's not that's not at all my my passion uh to do that so um you know this is 100% um we we all homeschooled together and we want to commune together and um our kids are great friends you know we have great relationships with these families and we just we it's about spending time and it's about um a great unique learning experience that they an opportunity that they have um and it it was it was it was really beautiful um you know it was it was very cool as someone who's worked in public school worked in private schools as an administrator um you know what what we had here does it doesn't really exist it's not um people want a safe place for their kids to to go to school and to to learn and um to have relationships and um you know we were able to provide that for them um from our home um and I know we're talking about accessory buildings but at the end of the day it's it's our home and that's the feel and what we really want out of it um and if there was any concerns about a disturbance you know I I wouldn't even be here today these these kids are all great kids um there's absolutely no disturbance uh to anyone in the area and it's because we're spread out right we're you know we're not talking about you know uh three acre lots we're talking about two plus acre lots any other I mean I'm just I'm I'm I'm struggling in that if if this were just hey're we're really in accessory building and we want to have this business and then absolutely you're going to need screening you're going to need parking we got to think about that like I would and then I would be like I need better plans than this I'm not improving any business that is this kind of Loosey Goosey right on the flip side if you just built an audition on your home and did this there we wouldn't be having this conversation at all and so I struggle then being like well because it's in the separate building we're going to put all these restrictions on you but if you just built an addition onto your home we wouldn't have like no one would have any say in anything um and so I'm kind of struggling like to me that's a huge disconnect and I'm kind of struggling with that I'm going to be honest um particularly since as you said like soon as our kids are done we're done like this isn't a business um and so so I'm personally kind of struggling because I feel like there if this were If This Were a business there's no way I would approve it without more details but if you just add an attachment to your house we wouldn't be here and so how can I like so I'm just I'm honestly I'm struggling with that with that disconnect Y and that's that's where I was with not having a plan in front of me I mean with with with an even number of people up here I think we might be headed for potentially a split vote but from some I I'll share my perspective uh so Commissioners uh kind of know where I stand um I I'm generally in agreement with with the findings or completely in agreement with the findings that are listed in the packet that staff had put together um you know after listening to to the public and their concerns like I said I do think they're valid but I also think that there are there are nuisance ordinances and there are ordinances in place um that give the city a mechanism to address them if they occur um and so from that from that standpoint I I mean I'm in favor of of this as proposed excuse me can I say something hold on a second hold on a second just just hold on a second we're let let us chat and then um we'll excuse the applicant then I'll call I'll I'll allow you to come back up in a second let's go he lied to him in for a whole year now they're going to let him do it y how many properties do you own I would I would clarify we are not a voting body I order order Christian people do stuff like this hey stop that don't do that for for those left I I would say that we are not a voting body up here we make recommendations to city council and that's that's what we do right we are not a voting body we are not letting this Happ happened so just clarify what was said out there we're not letting it yet that's that's not what our role is and I would agree with that I would like to make it clear after I excuse the applicant I I may if there is a strong desire I may open it back up for a short uh public hearing if it is not repeated information that we have heard so um and it stays civil and it stays civil yes so um I'm looking at the you know the packet as well and the findings from from the the city staff and um I mean that the application Falls within allowable use um I I agree with the applicant that say building codes determine use of the building and how the building is built and setbacks and all that stuff and that process will go through its due process um so at this point I'm in favor of allowing this or providing my approval for it I do want to acknowledge that it is there were rules that weren't followed and so I can understand from a neighbor's perspective not understanding the background you're when you say r that were not follow the rental part right um and so if if I know that right I can understand a concern that future rules might not be followed I get that I'm just saying I understand the concern I agree though that like there's a lot more to it right there's a lot of background that not everyone knows and so I'm also feel like second you know I don't even know if it's a second chance it' be a first chance in my mind right like we didn't know know that the rules weren't being followed right like didn't realize like the whole rental thing you thought you were fine you thought you had city city guidelines do say if it's a relative living in the property you do not need a rental license that's you're exempt yeah so so there there was a lapse between one relative versus non-relative absolutely yeah and so but like if you're the neighbor and you're not close and you don't know these things like I as a neighbor I don't necessarily know that this person is related to you right like I don't know that um so like I can see there's might be some perception um but again I just I keep coming back to if this if you just did it in your house we can't like like it's it's these are you're allowed to do this on your property um and so which I think it sorry you um I just so I just but I want to acknowledge those concerns again I I had my own I have had a neighbor who is not following the rules and also there was an issue in that the city staff told them one thing turned out it wasn't fine and there was kind of a back and forth and whatever so like I I just want to recognize like you want to have good positive neighborly relations you want to like your neighbors you know you don't want to not like your neighbors and you don't want your neighbors to not like you um and so the Assumption like There Are Rules we're going to just assume you're going to follow them right and like you're going to follow the rules and if you don't then then your neighbors have recourse but as long as you're following the rules like everything is fine um and I don't think there's necessarily like get a chance to follow the rules right like why yeah it's just it's yeah it's just it's really unfortunate that that that is the narrative um and uh I I don't even know those neighbors I mean I think the ones that know us can canul that we're we're kind good people like we I I I it it really is sad and um like I said we've we've loved this city since 2011 we've and it's uh it's been a crazy year for our family um and maybe it's the social media thing that you know that that that's the unfortunate piece is that people create you know their opinions on you based on what they see and not who they interact with and um that's unfortunate for us but I what what you're seeing here today just now is what we've experienced in our area and the reason why we left and so so for us we're processing this right now um because this is a shock to us we don't know these people um and they have these these this narrative from someone I don't I don't know so there there is a school less than a quarter mile away that's got hundreds and hundreds of screaming kids and I live within your shot of it as well and I mean you know we're talking about adding 20 kids to the neighborhood so I'm going to just give my my final couple sents on this and um I don't I don't disagree with what you're trying to do at all I am going to I am going to not vote for this I'm going to be flat out and say that for three reasons one is um a not it's a home it's being applied for as a home extended business without a fully flushed out site plan we've done that or even a concept plan in front of us we've done that with several others just as a precedent we've we've asked we've looked at screening and other other operations within that the this use is very minimal I will agree with it's very minimal and impact less impact to others um with probably only six cars coming in and out that's less than what I have my hockey team at my house my daughter's hockey team I agree with that but from the application standpoint um if we had a plan showing the driveway with a turnaround my my opinions on that would be a little different if we had plans of showing that I would be able to consider that right um second is you are currently not homesteaded at this property again I don't think it's fair to people like yourself trying to move into a property you own it correct but trying to move into a property and open a business I don't know that it's fair to them [Music] to try to move and start their business but I also you you are homesteaded somewhere else currently and I I have I'm struggling with that one as wanting to propone a business but right now the business isn't wanted in the neighborhood and I'm using the term business because that's what the application is right I'm going by the legal term cheer um and so I'm struggling with that one because you don't want to make your decisions without our approval um but yet you don't live there yet um we don't have the fleshed out plan of what your your building is going to I'm not talking I don't need to know the sighting and the details I I need to know the size how many bathrooms the driveway turn around that kind of stuff just a concept site plan and then the third within this is at least the way it's written is um it has it has the findings of the iup to the home daycare I'm going back to my my statement I think we need if we're if we're going to approve or recommend approval on this I think it needs to be written in such a way that limits the number of students that is relative to your family and the people that you are having are paid to be there which is why it's classified as a business that's a technicality and if staff wants to work out that number after this and you can convince me on the other two on the planning on the commissioner side here I would be in favor of that just because of the I just don't want it to grow at at what it is so that's a technicality in here but those are kind of where I'm at with this um and I get I get the building is going to go through the codes and go through all that stuff and staff so you're in staff site review but when we look at um we had the rental U the the storage unit come in the a couple couple months ago we were able to you need to burn this up you need to put trees here you need to block screening from your neighbors because of the use in the he had he had some mechanisms to do that and that's where I'm struggling with this one and not ready to approve it y that makes sense to me I think generally speaking from my perspective on the role of Landing commission is not necessarily to be site designers and to trust the staff to do those things but I I totally get where you're coming from Y and and I think that's valid my question for staff be what happens if herde can it still go to city council uh yes I mean it's just a recommendation I mean it could still go to city council the only reason it would not go to city council is if you table it sure so if if it's a two two vote then there's no recommendation right it's just a neutral recommendation it goes to city council and that's where the decisions are made and an opportunity to maybe address some of of what you've heard from us by the time you present the city council so my only concern would be let's say the iup didn't pass the recommendation they they gave you a Nick negative recommendation would you still put up the same size accessory building I wouldn't think so so so you don't need to answer that that's a question because I don't remember what our agreement was when the discussion we had but was there was there a planning application or a building application supposed to be submitted by September uh no we didn't we didn't put a deadline we we actually gave a a year time frame for us to get the two-car covered garage space is what we need talk that there was some plan in place 2025 that's to complete it right right to complete it wasn't there supposed to be some my concern is is that there's not enough time here because if you guys push this um I I don't know that at that point we have not we have no Planning Commission input for our decision um and my only concern is is that if he needs that before figuring out what to build that's a problem um now if I guess if youve tabled it and you're you you given our our agreement you could push the the the the plant the uh the building permit out until that was satisfied uh that's my concern is is that by the time you need to submit something you don't have an answer from the city yet so and and Dennis I do appreciate you know you saying you know getting a recommendation from us is important to city council and and I don't want to diminish our role up here and recognize the fact that the public hearing occurs here right and the public hearing occurs here and that's important as well so I'm not I'm not trying to push for a push vote right I'd much rather us have a decision one way or another as as or a recommendation one way or another as a body up here to help give counil what our clear Direction tend to flesh things out better than I mean that's more time more yeah with public hearing process and whatnot as well I you spend more time on things but that's because you're you're flashing them all then we need that and it also then gives the applicant a chance to you've heard what we're confused about and then you can have those things kind of fleshed out for city council so there's not the open-ended well what you know so so I think that's the other big thing between planning to city is it gives the applicant a chance to to figure some other details out that they don't always have I think it still goes back to the question at hand is the The Proposal is can he operate a extended home business to house 20 students um on his property and we hear a lot of information we greatly appreciate the the feedback from the city and the neighbors because a lot of times we don't have anybody come and talk and so it is nice to hear that and and just to get that but you know we we also have to just look at the facts of what the city allows what the ordinances allow um what the findings from the staff provide us uh and the question is is uh extended home business allowed on this property regardless of how it's it's configured or built or whatever because there is a separate process for that and yes it would be great to have a site plan I would love to have a site plan I'm an architect I want to see it want know what this looks like I want to get into the like all that but the building code and how many bathrooms and all that isn't our jurisdiction it's right I mean it's it's about how the land is being used what the aesthetic of the building looks like um and then just enforcement of the ordinances not the building code so I mean sometimes we we we get way more information because people are farther along in projects and we see those concept plans and we see the floor plans and all that stuff and it's great information and it helps Aid our decision process um in this instance I feel like the applicant's coming because they they they need to build a building and they need to know can they build it do they have to build it for two cars to meet the ordinance of the city or did they can they build it bigger so they can house this Co-op inside of it have an extended home business and at that point they need then they figure out what that building is going to look like so long-term question um so if if the co-op goes through you've built a large accessory structure for two cars but then your kids you know graduate out hopefully they move out right like that's the goal what do you do with that space then like what is your intent for that space do you have any long-term goals for that additional space well yeah it's I mean it's a we were a family of eight so I mean we would might not move out well no we I mean we would we would use that space I mean we've uh you know we don't currently have a two-car garage on the property um we have stuff so you know we use it for storage we would use it to hang out in you know whatever you know whatever people use those kind of buildings for um so and and that's that's our in intent for it now as well the the the co-op like I said is only 885 days of the year of 12 hours a week um so we're not most of the time yeah yeah so most of the time it's it's a use for our family you know that's what we're using it for if I could just kind of rephrase this a little bit in the way of thinking with any conditional interim use permit there are nine findings the fact that the commission and the council have to find that are exist and I don't want to read these because it's going to take me some time um so it's written the resolution so I guess my question for the commission is is there enough information available that you can say to these findings yes that is true or yes that is accurate I I guess the the the two that that I'm going to point out that without a a concept site plan and I'm not talking a full onsite plan but just a concept that's a wide open lot where that where that building at least was described to me as kind of more where that RV is no okay it's yet somewhere in that area right there on the north side of the property and there's not a whole lot of screening on that side so finding number six is the proposed use adequately screened and and staff said no screening is necessary I'm going to I'm going to argue with that that this is not screened today there's no building there today and there are homeowners who came today who had concerns of looking at this and the use and so a const plan would help a concept plan would help justify that getting to getting to our Point here number six is is the proposed use will not create a nuisance including but not limited to odor noise vibrations visual pollutions um that's number seven um and where I'm going with this one is the parking if we if we show where the driveway how the driveway is going to be extended across your lot show adequate parking for the use of the building and the use of the home business easy concept plan easy sketch on a napkin would would would at least get me in the realm here right now this is a lot of this is verbal but when we've done these home use buildings in the past or home extended buildings use in the past we've gone through those and I'm I'm going off of Precedence here of why I don't believe either one of those is actually found here with the concept that they're presenting let me play a little Devil's Advocate on that one do we require screening on Accessory structures if this were just a garage accessory structure no business no you know sure co- no so the the idea of screening is you're trying to alleviate what the nuisance is and so in this case it's not the building that's in the nuisance it's the activity so if you have parking and headlights and whatever else that creates the nuisance where you would want screening and and I I get that and where I'm going with that is the use that is proposed um has been described to us as 85 days a year 12 12 hours right the the parking is covered in decision in under decision in your packet there that two uh surface parking stalls will be required so that does cover the two teachers that we were um that was described to us as as being on this site all the time after that it's just drop off from parents right it's no different than the inhome daycare that I brought my kids to we had a line of parents down the street at 4:30 cuz that's when she closed right I mean that was a line of there was headlights there was you know when when we got into the winter months when it got dark out there were headlights there was all of that stuff so I guess Devil's Advocate from my perspective I can say yes I think to those findings of fact that screening is not necessary um you know to your point there's a school nearby right the kids make noise I don't know that it violates any ordinances you know to at a deciel level or or outside of certain times that that noise is allowed um you know it it it's got six kids six kids are going to make a lot of noise right if I could a lot of if I could add about noise in the neighborhood all of these properties um a lot of these properties back up to the park right here and there's T from from the property which we're on the other side of the street I can hear loud and clear everything that's happening at this at this playground when when there's games going on or whatever um so as far as noise there right and that's where I'm kind of going with it right the noise is is almost noise that will be expected in a neighborhood right kids you you would you would expect that it's not a dump truck it's not an excavator it's not a bulldozer right it's not um or a different type of home use being an an auto you know repair shop you're not not hearing pneumatic a tools or a kennel you're not hearing Pneumatic Air Tools you're not hearing you know that type of thing it quite frankly is noise that you would expect in a neighborhood it's kids it's more more of them but um sure I'm going to hold hold on I'm going to ask you I guess should we open the public hearing again you do it's for one one minute comments I I think has be new stuff it cannot be a repeat we if you do we we've got five comments online Okay I I think should I I think we're I mean I I think we're split yeah I'm I'm personally split so I have we let me ask you this have we discussed amongst the four of us everything we think we need to balance each other and and Peter I'm not arguing with you right I'm trying to maybe provide what my perspective would be on those particular items and and your vote lies where your vote lies and that's fine but have we discussed amongst us four everything we think we need to discuss and have we asked of staff and the applicant what we at this point need to ask I I think I do I am yeah I think I'm comfortable with where I'm at I yeah I think I me personally I I think open it up let's let's hear what they have to say bring it back to us for a decision I think well let's let's do that just it it might help inform you too on on what our decision is um what what council Rec um what our recommendation to the council is going to be and then what council's decision is going to be it might help inform you on how to operate how to do things so take note of of just some of the concerns that may not come up yeah I think uh the only thing that I would ask everyone to consider is uh the personal attacks um the accusations based on again I'm not sure where people are are getting this information um as far as I knew this was um stuff that was between our lawyer and the city's attorney um and the stuff that I've heard tonight is um it's outside of I'm not sure where they're getting their information so um that's I would just ask for that to be into consideration cuz um um yeah that's that's more so what I'm hearing than anything else y thank you thank you very much y y thanks for your time so far all right with that at 8:30 I'm going to open the public hearing um I'm going to try to limit it to to new comments only um and uh limit it to we have three minutes in our rules we we'll stick to that so come on forward should I st my name and address again yes please Paul Von Court 13560 uh Norwood Lane North um would it be okay to address some of the comments that you made concerns uh about it just very brief yeah I would say we're not necessarily going to go back and I don't want to go back and forth I just want to so what you were saying is the school is in fact behind our property we have the weight there's also a screening of 30- foot pine trees that go across there so I think that's kind of where you're talking about the use is being the case the kids again we hear the kids not a problem but the more concerned is 20 cars you said again the daycare 12 cars at line already forms now we're talking 20 cars a line could form that could be more of an issue and that would I think fall in the area of my concern about the nuisance Paul you're talking and Dennis you were talking about the concern that this has to be decided with the building plan because of the parking structure has to be built that is not you know that's something that was caused by the applicant so it's not something that like he's being forced for for no reason to do it there was a conversion that was made whether it was known that it wasn't allowed or not it was made by the applicant and now the correction has to do that so I don't think that's a reason to speed up the process of the decision regarding this use in general and that I agree that it should be disentangled but because of the way that it's applied it's entangled with that and so I just wanted to you know point out those points and so from the point I do think it is the job to like figure out nuisances as designed you know the school has a that school is hundreds of kids I get that but also just the cars is more of the concern and so screening and sort of more detail about that would make us a lot more comfortable also there's no animosity it's not personal you know Nathan waves to me and says hi that's very friendly I think a little bit of the problem is also neighbors feel a little blindsided because there are relationships but from what I heard this notice came with the design and the that and no one knew anything about it so when you're talking about Community sending like forming a sense of community I think there was a little sense that you know there's a disconnect between what was known and what was unknown and again you were talking about the recourse uh when something has been violated that's true but clearly the building permit you know that was violated it hasn't been corrected it's been 9 months I know there's an agreement but we're not privy to that because it's private as I agree but also the thing with the street like Nathan said we've always calling to talk about problems but the street parking was very obvious to everyone that the tenants were parking off the street in a rental that wasn't approved and nothing happened and so I think people are frustrated that it feels a sense of the recourses to make sure that those problems are taken care of haven't worked and so they really want more detail upfront about this to make sure that it doesn't keep happening thank you very much thank you come on up timer Peter yeah hi my name is Jess gford um I live on 13521 Norwood Lane so I am the long skinny one to the south of them um I guess I originally did not want to get involved about any of this because we had a really in our previous situation we had a really big um negative experience with our neighbors and HOAs and city councils so we originally just came my husband's out of town of course I got to come just for informational only um and I just wanted to say that I just wanted to back Nathan and Megan as humans for me that breaks my heart to see that people treat them that way when we first moved in I remember meeting Nathan he was painting his house and we were so excited to meet our first neighbors they welcomed us warmly and we were so excited to live by them until they later moved I just wanted to say first and foremost their kids have always been respectful of our yard we have a dog that does not like strangers their kids never crossed into our yard if they did they got their ball and they came straight back they were very respectful no issues at all um I also wanted to say um when we first got the notice we were blindsided unfortunately my husband's out of town um I wouldn't say we were excited about it however we knew knowing the yanes personally we decided to step back we wanted to hear the information at this meeting before we made a decision on it because because we know that whatever the yanes did they did it because they cared about us and they had good intentions um my husband being from homeschooling was like Wow that'd be really fun to have that at someone's house versus a neutral site such as a church which he went to um so yeah I just really want to talk about them as humans and that they're great I would trust them giving them my garage D code if needed to like they're great humans and I'm really sorry that you had to see them be treated the way they are so that's all I really wanted to say thank you um 2 4 6 5 137 um in regards to the noise um you're stating that you can hear the the school and everything we were all well aware that the school was there we're all well aware that recess happens um the business you know you're telling us it's happening and and and stuff that's that's the reason I don't I don't know if I'm making myself you know clear or anything but the extra noise the extra traffic um you know this this is going to be new new introduction into the neighborhood and it's just like I said 35 years of the same address and it's just not something that you know you're not ready for that change and everything so that's it thank you so Jamie WIS nusi 13600 Norwood Lane right across from the camper is where our house is I want to address Nick what you had asked about the ordinances and that they have to take care of that that the city is responsible for that the city has been working on the garage has been working with the um the vehicles and everything from the past renters that were in there so they've done I've got my information neor or Nathan I'd like to say to you I got my information from the city so it was nothing that was out on social media I'm not even on social media and it sounds like now it was at the cost of the city to see how far we were going to have to take this and it didn't get done so my concerns really come in with what has happened in the past and it didn't get resolved and the city has been working and trying to take care of this and the ordinance didn't go didn't go through Nathan and Megan you're great neighbors I loved it when you were there this is nothing personal at all this is just the fact that we don't want a business across the street and we want to make sure that the rules are all followed if it goes through so I just want to talk about the ordinance yes it is the city but it takes forever and it comes at a cost of the taxpayer if you have to elevate thank you thank you you said there are online comments there are yeah so um and I'm just going to allow anyone to to talk here let's see if all that works so and I'm just going to go down the line here um you know Angie do you have [Music] anything oh I'm going to defer to Chris you're going to have to show me how to do this I get out of this just Escape where this one yeah I don't know why they not coming I guess John under the Q&A there so yeah they might have to do a Q&A thing yeah well and you can ask the attendees to raise their hand digitally if they wanted to cuz then I would put a hand right next to their name sure see I'm just going to go off the Q&A so from Anonymous we'd like to urge the commission to that one was previously R okay uh I'm just going to go down to something that might be there's a they're all they're all Anonymous um they attach it hypothetically could they attach a name to it or do they have to intentionally put Anonymous uh the way this is written it's it it could be anonymous so just your your voice isn't going to get picked up by the microphone so the question was is could this be anonymous or should it be attached to a person um be up to the chair I I guess generally speaking when the public is here speaking you're you're stating your name and your address I think based on based on my judgment and other Commissioners can out rule me but based on my judgment I didn't see any new information that was valid in those comments speculation that doesn't go into my agreed my uh sway in my opinion I think with that do we have any new any additional all right at 8:41 we will close the public hearing for a second time um I would say my my opinion hasn't changed I think I think that the concerns of the residents and neighbors are real they're they're scared I think it's our job to help I see where you're coming from of of this business this type of business is not that conducive to noise I think it's it's the um applicant's job to present that in a way that um proves that um I feel like neighbors who live directly across the street and are going to be most impacted didn't feel haven't felt yet that it is adequately screened the parking is adequately taken care of things like that so to me I'm my my my three con my two of my concerns the the number of students um I I think can easily be resolved um I think if if if it came in as three families or or you know two families outside of the two teachers and the the anties that's that's a whole different conversation here of four vehicles versus 20 but the way it's written and presented to us it was 20 and so that one presumes that's 20 Vehicles so I think that one can be resolved on a technical issue um that is beyond this but because we're not going to resolve that tonight I'm not going to be in favor of that um we don't have the screening defined we don't have the driveway defined with turnarounds and so I'm not there's been concerns of past neighborhood neighbors of this being a rental I had a rental across the street from me that was terrible um that did very similar things of parking on the street they were they were throwing parties all hours of the night um hopefully you guys didn't have to deal with that but because of unfortunately because of past incidences of parking that neighbors have had I'd just like to see a parking place plan for the use and that's that's my opinion and why I'm I'm going to hold on that one so feel like that could be provided to the council then it could be but I don't have to vote in favor tonight giving those those stipulations I I I will make a motion to approve uh I I've got to go all the way back up to the part of the uh staff report to get the the language right on it because um I I agree with the findings of fact that that staff has laid out in in the resolution including screening I do not believe screening is needed um so I I would make a motion to improve the approve the interim use permit home extended business at 13551 Norwood Lane uh according to the findings of fact presented in the packet do you want to summarize the six decisions though just the the home extended business shall be limited to just the accessory building in the yard prior to operation the property shall be homesteaded by the applicants that has to happen first prior to operation um it will comply with all building fire zoning codes so any concerns about bathrooms those things will be addressed the applicant shall conert a driveway accessing this so that will be addressed um the property shall comply with residential parking requirements including minimum of two enclosed parking and the surface so parking will be addressed um and the interim use permit is lasts at most five years so that is what we're like but that is those things some so a lot of the concerns are addressed in this correct it's and that's in the resolution the resolution is three pages um the second page being primarily the findings of fact and then the third page being what you had listed off there um that's what I'm basing my motion on I'll second that motion all right we've got a motion and a second uh do we need any discussion on anything else question for you if this was amended to have a seventh that appropriate screening would be discussed or is there just nothing there for you for me no because I don't I don't necessarily know what appropriate screening really looks like for it to be honest with you right it's um from my perspective it's uh two people that will work there two vehicles that will park there they would pull into that driveway after after that I mean it's it's pick up and drop off right and it's that could happen at a daycare for my opinion you know pick up in the or drop off in the morning pickup in the evening how long they're there for I I don't know that that really has much much of an impact so for me I don't see it a whole lot different that part of that use being from an inhome daycare um yes the number I will knowledge that there are more than an inhome daycare with license um but from my perspective the traffic through this neighborhood it it they're large Lots um I look I did look at some some traffic data through there and crash history and there just isn't any from my perspective I'm not concerned about the traffic I do not feel that um from my perspective screening is necessary but I'm just one so we have a motion in a second so I just want want to comment on the screening and this is this is something that I think Paul brought up is the large trees if we look where that driveway is today and if they're going to connect that driveway to the where the proposed building is that's going to take out a fair monist trees potentially potentially mhm not not not and that's that's not having a concept plan right and that's where I'm still going to stand up y because it is tied to an iup we are allowed to ask for some of that stuff and so that's that's we've done it in the past with other ones and that's I'm doing I'm voting more on precedence of of the not having the concept plan and being able to see that screening of the use I don't necessarily know that there's much to do there except for the driveway is is part of the use and the parking so we call out residential parking in here I think we need I do think that may need to be amended to also call out the the turnaround and the the parking for a you know you have your residential and then you have your is the the business operation side of this the two teachers is that parking called out just because if this were an accessory structure without the I without the iup right we would have that same stipulation right so do we have to just Define that that that is the part work for the business as well as part of the resolution so the code requires like every residential house you have a two-card minimum twocc car garage into two a driveway for two vehicles so for the house itself and and John I'm just asking more on a wording side is um is the where is it the the parking um enclosed parking separate may be constructed uh it shall comply with residential parking requirements and then I and then basically right after that just add in and and also comply with the use the home the use of the home business because this isn't a residential it's the application isn't about a residence here it's about a business sure it'd be up to the motion or so that's that was my where I was going with that so you would like to see a little bit more specificity with respect to the turnaround part of it and the kind of the drop off operations to it question my understanding those driveways that exceeded 200 ft required a turnaround um and I think I think I think it's less than that but yeah so if it's I want and I'm going off of memory here so I want to say if it's like over 150 ft you have to have a turn around I believe you're at a certain distance so it's already in our so as part of a plan review um it it should that that should point that out and where I'm where I'm getting at with this and this is back to my my whole thing if this were an accessory building as a normal garage and not for a business we wouldn't see that and we wouldn't be here at all and I I'm fine with that under a normal use we we're having a a homeschool with 20 kids potentially what if there's a bus but I mean if it wasn't the home we wouldn't be here having this conversation I get it but that's not the process we're in and so what if it's a bus that means use that turn around we can speculate like that though yeah but I get where you're going and I would agree had we been presented a site plan this would be a lot easier discussion uh we probably will be on to the next item right but and and I I I I wish we had a site plan too I really do Denis I'm I'm giving you my comments more so because I am going to vote against it but I'm not against the actual use I'll say it that way I'm giving you my comments and I'm going to vote no but I I want those comments to be clear because I'm not against the use I'm just against what was presented to us is not fully flushed out and that's why I'm not comfortable with it I suspect we'll have a safe plan so that that's my recommendation is a site plan with maybe some screening what the what along that driveway where the turnaround might be just some things that would make some of the neighbors a little more comfortable y so we have a motion in a second M uh all those in favor I I all those opposed nay motion passes 3 to one good luck and thank you for coming tonight thank you to everybody thank you for everybody thank you for everybody uh this will be on August 27th August 27th city council meeting all right with that we will move into I iup for Event Center at uh Magnus can I ask a clarifying question yes so if I have concerns as a neighbor for this do I have to go down there or do I get to say them up here I would say you get to say them up here yeah acknowledge how I'm speaking of this is or well I mean it's similar to comments I gave at the that's right U previous meetings about our neighbors yes okay thank you just for Clear if there's a perception of a conflict of interest then State well State what that is so you know we're we're all neighbors okay so uh so Mr chair this is an interim use permit for an event center um 16861 North Diamond Lake Road for Magnus veterans foundation so as the commission is whereare um Magnus received an IEP for a veterans outpatient facility in 2021 this was specific for the use of the property in the buildings for an outpatient clinic um what we're here for tonight is an IEP for an event center with the event center and just to to real abbreviate this a little bit the idea is you're having an outdoor activity where you have a whole lot of people in it's um not the typical day-to-day operation so this is a separate permit from what they currently have um the property itself I believe is 34 Acres it's uh on North Diamond Lake Road on the North Shore of Diamond Lake um 34 Acres uh they have we have kind of a sight plan but I'm going to refer to the aial photo um this was originally I believe an IEP for a home business I I'm not sure what we could I can't remember what year it was but it was some time ago uh so the day-to-day operations are in the building this is the original house that's been converted to I'm going to call it a commercial use um and then we have the buildings that either have are used for storage or used as part of the clinic activities um but specific to this permit for the event center uh access would be gained by the Western driveway and then parking for about 5 to 600 vehicles in the North I'm going to call it the North pasture area the events itself would would be in the backyard kind of between the house and the pond um again it's 34 acres by staff's estimate there's space for about 5 to 600 vehicles with ample space to expand uh 5 to 600 Vehicles is roughly 1,000 people so um again with um any conditional in interm use permit the idea is uh if it were to be approved to have conditions that address the potential nuisance factors um if it's not to be approved it's then it's because it's not an appropriate place or there's something that would prevent those um resolution or resolving those nuisance factors so um that that's my uh I was hoping to keep it to 30 seconds but I'm think I'm hold that so we have applicant here and you can stand for anying questions uh ladies and gentlemen my name is Bobak I'm the vice president director a donor a volunteer at Magnus veterans Foundation I'm a 28e Navy veteran I I volunteer my time there as do about 200 other people um and and what we do there is we operate a medical and wellness clinic for veterans and their family members we don't charge our members any fees whatsoever we don't charge their insurance everything we do we fund raise and we provide all the services to Veterans and their families and those Services include medical uh Services provided by a physician a physician's assistant and a nurse mental health counseling we have two licensed and credentialed social workers and mental health professionals that councel veterans and their families and we have a lot of associated services including Physical Therapy physical fitness Chiropractic yoga and we also operate recovery groups addiction groups on the property the veterans groups and the property itself is is quite beautiful and we allow our members to use it so we're in our third year of existence three years and a month really we're at 800 members um we get along with uh with our neighbors and with the city and uh in the past we have had outdoor events these have included concerts and festivals um we're moving away from that uh the only purpose of those events was fundraising um it cost a lot of money to do what we do for veterans that those type of large events haven't proven to be as effective because they're so heavy with volunteer time so we're shifting away from those events but we do have one event planned for September 7th and another event is happening in August which isn't put on by Magnus but which is for veterans on our property and and I'll stop there on the interest of time uh and I'm here for questions if you have any so um I live on the corner of South Diamond Lake in Zanzibar um the new house there in the new barn um and so than you guys do amazing work my concern is not even so much a concern about the permit like I'm fine with the Event Center thing um it is the request occasionally to um so in the event center uh ordinance we have a requirement that Amplified music Amplified noise outside stops at 8:00 p.m. and you've requested in two different places to go past that to 10:00 p.m. and 10:30 p.m. um and I I have a little bit of a concern there because we also have Fisher Farms right across the street also an event center also has that same rule Deans also went through their in Event Center they have that same rule if you guys are like okay these two times we want to go past the 800 p.m. and then next year it's three times the next year it's four times and then Fisher Farms is like you know what we also would like to ignore the 800m rule and then Deans is like you know what we'd also like to ignore the 800 p.m rule then what's the point of the 800m rule for outside Amplified noise um because one of the reasons I moved out to 18 acres in the middle of nowhere it's because I didn't want to hear my neighbor's music and I can hear your music which is fine during the day and I get it you guys do amazing work you know my dad served in the Korean War my uncle died in Vietnam um my brother-in-law served in the Iraq War my nephew is actively serving and like you guys do amazing work and it is needed trust me my dad needed what you guys did and he never got it um so like I love what you guys do and I'm 100% on board with like that part of it I just my concern is the pushing the Amplified music past the 800m which is the ordinance because the reality is Amplified music travels that's the whole point um and you do have a lot of neighbors um like yes it's technically zoned egg but like people live on those properties um so that that's my only concern everything else I'm absolutely fine with it's just the the the requests to push the outside Amplified music past A8 p.m. if the one way I would be okay with it is if we added some additional rule that at most it can be twice a year because again you know like if if if it's like okay you know like I said like I don't want this going on and on because then it's you and then it's Fisher farms and then it's Deans and now I'm suddenly living in the Entertainment District and I don't know how that happened um right like how did that happen so that's that's my only concern out of all this everything else is fine and like I said love what you guys do and I think you do great work um and in general great neighbors that that's my my only thing I don't know what the my comment was was going to say thank you for everything that you guys do for the veterans both locally and and even more regionally um playing off your comment a little bit that that sounds completely reasonable and would you know would you appreciate a notice when that's going to occur stuff like that I don't you know I think those are probably doable things I won't speak on your behalf but um it's more just as a neighbor I would you know it'd be nice to know when if if it were going to happen and maybe have some assurances that it's not going to be it's not going to grow a numerous amount of days a year yeah because maybe you guys don't do the fundraising thing but maybe you find that a good way to is to rent the because if you're an event center you're not limiting the events to you guys right that's the whole point of an event center is it gets rented out to other people so you or your organization might not do this more than once or twice a year but you might have someone who wants to come and rent your space and pay you donate a lot of money and you're like oh actually this makes more sense instead of us running an event which I can only imagine the expenses you guys you know have put on some amazing things I'm sure the expenses were high but like renting it out to someone else but then they want to go late right like so in an event center you're ultimately have you're opening up the opportunity to potentially rent it out to other organizations and I would just like some some assurances that that 800 p.m Amplified music thing thing isn't just ignored willy-nilly by everyone who wants to so mhm and and your objection is specifically the after 8m after Amplified after 8 p.m. again listening to other people's music was we lived in a town home in Golden Valley Lov go like I loved a lot of things about it one of my selling points to my husband because I want they won't let me have the horse in home in Golden Valley for obvious reasons so that's my reason but like one of my selling points to my husband was like we won't have neighbors right like you don't have to listen to them any like we will be you know so it's like okay but now we still get to listen to everyone else's music um so and that that would be my only concern is is to a just it's not allowed or B twice a year Max no no more than that because then at most I got two from you two from fiser and two from Deans so that's six at most I might be stuck with where I'm listening to music late at night cuz I get I have to get up at the crocod dawn for those chickens I go to bed early so and are seven days a week I don't get to take weekends off for them so they don't stay in the barn on Sundays because I would like to sleep in if if I might respond we didn't ignore anything we're here asking for a wa oh yeah no no I'm just saying like but because two of the which is fine and that's why like I'm not saying that you did ignore it I'm just saying I have a concern if you asked for waiver and it's approved and if every time it's asked for and then every time it's approved at a certain point then what's the purpose of having an 8m cut off if every request to ignore it is approved right so we're certainly willing to come and ask for a waiver on an event by event basis which is what we have done in the past I thought the concept here was to have one permit that covered everything but but that goes because we're asking for a waiver if if you want us to come back to you on an event by event basis I think that's reasonable only those events that would have Amplified music after 8:00 p.m. if you can convince those that you're working with to say you can amplify till 800 p.m. after that it goes you know more quiet then you don't many many might be okay with that and we you know staff might not see your waiver request all that often yeah I I'm sure you don't know yet either until you start to see what type of organizations come to you or what type of events you might end up hosting Sarah as you mentioned right it it could become you know a very popular place to have other organizations help your efforts yeah and not saying any rules have been broken it's just like I said if if every request to go past the APM is approved then the APM is a meaningless rule that's all what I'm suggesting is you would be able to control yeah MH on the enforceability side I guess you know I'm going to say waiver you know in zoning terms is a variance and the variance has to be practical difficulties and there aren't any so if the intent is to allow um a limited number of events where there's Amplified music past 8:00 put a number on that MH yeah that's enforceable for us but is it is it I mean I'm I'm asking from a I get it it's more of a staffing a staff concern I mean I heard a couple things when you were talking that stood out in my mind we have th nearby we have Fisher farms nearby we have Magnus we may we may have one or two more of these pop up in the near future but is it uh do we need to rewrite our ordinance or amend our ordinance to allow applicants to submit to the city a a waiver for the noise ordinance past 8:00 p.m. and then the city staff says okay Magnus you got in on August 1st Fisher Farms you can't that we've already got one that weekend we've got one that night I'm I'm asking more of a the the administrative side administrative side that may that may not require them to come here every time but allow for a few years that's why we have this ordinance and this permit so they never have to come back here again now in reality it's not working and that's so the idea here is you what are the nuisance factors that event centers create you know including Magnus and then what can we do to try to alleviate those so if the concern is noise Amplified noise is it one time a year or or is it one time a week yeah um and what what is the council willing to put up with one and I I think most people would agree that noise travels differently in the summer than the winter and there's things like that that take into consideration as well but maybe you're not outside in the winter I am chickens not you those people with the Amplified noise sorry people with the Amplified noise are probably not going to be out you know but who knows so it does seem like we a PO that's I mean if the requirement is JM I have no problem with to say Magnus have two vents a year that could 11 or I mean we occasionally have um Heritage day goes till what 11 it's past W and so seem like you know it does seem like we we almost need something we miss something yeah like we miss something we want them occasionally just we don't want it every single week that's just it it's not I don't mind once or twice a year that's a complete non-issue I just don't want it every week and then Fisher Farm's piling on every week and then Dean's piling on every week and now again I live not where I want to live it almost seems like the the iup for the activity center it almost seems like has kind of an independent issue of this but it seems like if somebody wants to violate that ordinance they make a request and I don't know if we simply have a hard and fast get to here or you got to get approval I'd rather not have approval from Council no stups like yep so what I'll add I mean we we do have a kind of a concentration of event centers in this part of town so the idea is you know if you you know making up numbers if you say you can have two a year or something that's not going to work for a lot of the event centers well the Amplified noise outside past ATM like the we did like I was I was not here for this I was out there for that because I lived by these places and that was one of the things was we have no problem with ampli music during the day it's that people have kids and families and we want to go to bed um and we don't want it every weekend and so that was why we pushed and you all agreed that outside Amplified noise staffed at 8:00 p.m. um and I was fine with you know fine happy yay um I also understand for some of these big things like Heritage days and like your big events twice a year is not a big deal twice a year is not every weekend and so and if if the reality is every single time you just say hey we want it and the C says oh okay then that 8:00 p.m. rule is utterly meaningless that would be like if I just got to call the police station and be like hey I want a speed today and I'm like sounds good thanks for letting us know like that's not how rules work right they're there for a reason um so I would say every event center gets twice a year that they can push past the 800 PM without like talking to anybody like they just can happen like we but maybe that has to go into the Event Center ordinance yeah I think probably that's probably the right home for it but I think this discussion is really helping with with that future discussion that of you know and these ordinances are all ordinances are work in progress right we find these situations we can find ways to improve them and but as far as Magus having the standing event as it currently exists I'm 100% on board with that like absolutely no problems great yay happy I think we just need to work out this after 800 p.m detail in such a way that meets your needs but still you know recognizing again we somehow wound up in the hot bed of of event centers and Dayton and how do we just account for that yeah which is a separate a separate issue that's a and how does that happen well that I can ask later how I do that you mentioned you have two events planned that are pass at 800m yes one in August one in September okay and none none for the rest of the year and so we're not going to solve this by those two so I think if assuming we're going to approve this tonight we stipulate that two for the remaining of the Year past 8:00 P.M allow the two and then we figure out how to incorporate a change to our ordinance that allows I don't like them having them willy-nilly I think they should be submitting a application or a permit or something to the city so that the city's aware that they're not breaking the ordinance and the city can track them yeah law enforcement needs to know that it's it's happening and I think if you're having a large event like that anyway you probably let the police know because you're having all that traffic and all that right so uh it all kind of comes together but I think part of it too then is just making sure that three venues don't all have a event on the same day going late like it attacks the city set better know maybe get it out of the way se you know related to this discussion but separate so we do have an ordinance Amendment that's in front of the council for specific to special events um very similar to this but it it's not a planning or planning or zoning permit um so that item has been tabled by the county and staff need to rework the ordinance a little bit um but IT addresses some of what what you're speaking of okay so we make a motion to this is a public hearing um so at 8 or 9:12 I'm going to open the public hearing and uh is there anyone here to speak on this one um I think with that we'll just any comments online yeah any comments online John's checking we can kind of continue our discussion for a minute here and yep thank you thank thank you thank you not hearing anything from Nate or Tom um with that at 913 I will close the public hearing um any further discussion or so you had mentioned approving this allowing these two events to occur right but I question the mechanism of that whether or not we should even touch that since there's an ordinance in place right so we're essentially going to approve an iup for an event center um with the condition that they can violate the ordinance twice I I just think I think the city in general needs to wrestle with that one outside of potentially us I think we can provide discussion to staff and and and Dennis you can share with City Council on on what Planning Commission seems to be appropriate for that number but I don't know that it's tied to this actual item right per se I don't know that we should be saying yes you can violate the ordinance twice with your event center iup right I would not recommend right okay but I think the discussion is is very worthwhile to have um but they could still come through for a special event like that that mechanism so the events are happening in August and September those are going to happen with a special event yes so those are outside of this okay we don't need to address them no we're just approving this but we're acknowledging that for next summer yeah we need to have this sorted out so that for next summer it can just happen without having to go through all the because that was the point of becoming an event center so you didn't have to go through this every time so but that gives us till next summer I mean that gives us a little bit of wiggle room we don't have to have it figured out today because the two that are happening have already been taken care of yeah so the the whole part of the the whole idea one of the requirements of an event center IEP for an event center is the applicant has to create an emergency response plan to anything that could go wrong and that that's reviewed administratively by you police and fire and all that um so that that's the concern that we're trying to address that doesn't address noise it's how do you get people evacuated from the the property I mean I motion to approve that the EV I have a question though so one of the the requests of the applicant is grass parking whereas the Ordnance requires a hard surface or improved parking and I'm just going to say improve such as gravel um we have two IEPs for Event Center so Fisher Farms has a gravel parking lot Dean pumpkins does not and and might I add that when the city has events they use grass parking yeah I I I struggle with this because it's an event you know the events don't happen every day all day every day and you put gravel out here we're taking away green space we're taking away natural environment to put in gravel gravel washes out um I think I drove by Fisher Farms I thought I think they might have had an issue with gravel staying in place right vegetation helps that stuff stay in place I I think the nuisance comes if it's if it gets super muddy and it's tracking onto the roadway again the city's got mechanisms in place to get them to clean that up um and it's an interim use permit and the city could likely have a discussion of about well you might need if if they're unwilling already at the request to put in a a gravel approach to help knock some of that dirt down which there is a gravel approach sure yes I think there's a difference too I think Fisher Farms there's their business model is to have people come regularly weekend events in a more regular basis where this is more of a couple time a year use the Heritage days is one time a use um Dean's pumpkin patch is one time a year you know seasonal short-term things that are grass parking as opposed to weekly events I mean I think at a certain point it will take care of itself because if if it does turn out that renting it out to other places and it's used more frequently then the grass is going to die real fast and you're going to have nothing but mud and then those people aren't going to want to come cuz like that so then your business D like so I think to me it's a non as long as the gravel approach is there which it is the rest of it is a non-issue um and I prefer grass to gravel for long term use anyway especially on the north side of a lake yeah I do recall on any side of a lake not just the north side but I thought I recall on Fisher Farms there was gravel for a certain area and then there was grass overflow which is actually the way I'm reading how they're using this they have gravel for their Everyday Use and then grass overflow so wood get used a whole lot less frequently yes and that but I I want to clarify that as um it's the Overflow parking is the grass and I think this one and Deans are unique because they are kind of somewhat grandfathered in as event centers where Fisher Farms was brand new and so there's a little difference there in how we interpret the code as far as gravel or hard surface parking and I think the Overflow is the the key with this one well and that's what you guys keep telling me right it's every every every applicant is an individual and you look have to look at the individual situation and Fisher Farm their long-term goal is to have regular events like on a weekly basis that is not magnus's long-term goal that is not Dean's long-term goal right so like the long-term goals are very different um plus also Fisher Farms has an additional business of like the Orchard and the anticipation of people coming regularly and they're selling eggs and they're having the movie like they're just being there's just a lot more people more frequently at the different situation so where the gravel makes sense in that situation where this I think as is I'm fine with it as yeah and I'm almost afraid of if you know if we had forced gravel on here we'd create a nuisance that was unnecessary cuz trying to keep all that gravel in place can be challenging so I think we're all on the same page John is so does the activity ordinance require improved surfaces I ordinance does yes okay so are we in the same boat we are going to approve something that automatically does yeah so I I think if this is the direction the Planning Commission the council I I think change the ordinance change the ordinance yes yeah okay yes so we have two things to change the ordinance for yes I'm sure that will add pretty sure is someone keeping a list should I keep restrooms have quite or P parties have quite the set back so that's yeah one of the reasons they quite you're going to do a motion I make a to approve m is an event center okay right I'll second we have a motion three conditions with this so just to make sure everyone understands what they're voting for so condition one prior to operation of by The Event Center the applicant shall submit an emergency response plan for review and acceptance by City staff two The Event Center shall operate according to city code uh exception off Street parking may be on an unimproved surface such that it does not significantly impact surface drainage if there's the desire to allow Amplified music past 8:00 that should also be WR written in here as a condition um item three is the inter use permit for the event center shall expire concurrently with the interm use permit for a veterans out Pati facility on January 26 2041 or when the veterans outpatient facility use ceases operate for a period of one year whichever occurs first this ties into the previous IEP for the veterans Outpatient Center so it's very unique to this um this use or this permit so when the original IEP was approved I think it was a 30-year permit that was approved for so this T just ties the two together so again if there's a desire to whatever you want to do for Amplified music if it's different than and what's the 800 PM then that should be a condition that it's allowed under whatever circumstances but we we already said that they could submit a special there is a workaround existing for that special EV so we don't doesn't follow the we don't want to tie that to this iup and if we're going to if we're going to amend the [Music] amendment it'd be better to do it that way than to say you can do it twice and then amend the code that's says no now you can do it three times yes so I have a question about this whole parking thing says if no buildings are present for the event center then parking will be determined by City staff my understand is the actual buildings of Magna Center that's not for the event like the events are right so I I guess the that could change those so let's say the buildings are used for well I I'm going to think the storage buildings the Barns and all that have the potential of being used in in conjunction with any of the events that are happening but the events not going to happen in that storage building the events happening outside you you might have vendors that are inside the storage building they occasionally do in the bo but yeah generally the events are outside unless it's rain in which case they but but I'm just saying you already have that in there so like you could make that argument which is what I'm making okay okay we're fine we have a motion in a second the conditions have been read all those in favor I I all right all those opposed motion passes 4 z uh August 27th yes and if I get that was Nick and Paul that was a first motion second all right item 9 C moving along okay thank you uh this is a concept plan for the Holland property so 118 11085 French Lake Road um this is kind of a unique pro project because it straddles the Dayton Champlain border um otherwise it'd be pretty simple so the concept plan once again what in development you start out with a concept plan which is just a sketch on a on a napkin of you what do you think of this what do you do you like it do you hate it what do you want to change um so that's what the developer is doing uh so again what what is unique about this project uh the the development is 15 Lots uh two of the lots are in Dayton the rest of it is in Champlain um in addition to the two lots the storm water ponding is on the Dayton side um how we're going to coordinate that I I don't know exactly but that's we'll we'll work that out so um again with the whole project 15 Lots this is the city boundary between Dayton and Champlain uh we have two lots plus a a fraction of other lots that would be primarily on the Champlain sit one of the questions for the council is going to be annexation or Detachment and annexation of um whether of moving essentially the the city's boundary to follow the the lot lines or to move the whole project from Dayton into Champlain or to go to the applicant and say you know we like straight lines you need to make your lot straight and keep the boundary the way it is um if there's any opinions the commission has on any of this this would be the time to do it uh things that we don't know about the project and I'll just add this came in Fairly last minute uh we don't know what the intended zoning is if it's going to be R1 R3 or a PUD so as the commission knows with the Pud everything becomes flexible but the intention is is that with the Pud there's some kind of a public benefit to the project so um in the staff report I'm giving the example of um additional buffering along French Lake Road so we have other puds um elsewhere in the city where we do have a probably 30 35 foot landscape buffer along County roads this would be an example along French Lake Road or County Road 121 121 um other critical items is access to French Lake Road there is no proposed access on the Dayton side all access would come off of I can't think of the name of the street now but it's the existing um Street on Champlain I I think of this as old what used to be French Lake Road before uh yeah it is French Lake Road before the creek crossed so once you come into the neighborhood the street name changes Brookside Trail Brookside Trail there you go Crossing and okay um so with the concept plan what we typically ask for developers is if there's a significant amount of undeveloped land that's adjacent to it show us potentially how that could develop so we have an idea of where Street connections should occur so the developer did do that on both the Champlain and the Dayton side um one concern that we have have as staff is um if there is no access all these homes which I want to say is around 200 would have one access point onto frch Lake Road alternatively there could be a second Road and I think this is kind of showing it off of Airwood um there's not enough stacking space to have a a good intersection with there it it would have to or should have kind of an S curve that potentially affects how these two lots might be laid out or how that street is ankled so um but that's that's me trying to summarize this quickly so again kind of the the main factors that I kind of hit up upon with the concept plan um is the municipal boundary adjustment of should the city boundary be redrawn and if so how um what is the the appropriate lot sizes in zoning so we have two lots out of 15 it'd be really simple to call this a peed and just say okay the majority of the project is in Champlin we're going to follow the champlin's Orin wherever that is um or vice versa but I also want you to look at the big picture of you know this is a bigger project not all of it is in Champlain there's a significant amount of it that's in Dayton and then also the access onto French Lake Road with the concept plan there is no formal approval or denial process um the four of you all have your own individual opinions they can completely conflict with the next person's and I don't believe we have the developer here yes we do yeah Nate and then I don't know I know Nate is or Nathan far's out of town um I bet that he'll have uh in input or things to add that I'm missing all right I guess any clarifying questions for staff this is a public hearing so I have no questions at this time I don't have any questions you get to open up for public hearing and see if there's anybody here to talk okay uh actually sorry one question where is this sorry if it's already been said where is this in the process with the city of Champlain has it been to their Planning Commission I I'm going to lean on uh Nathan I I don't believe it's gone anywhere it might be the reason we might have some technical problems why we've not heard verbally from anyway so that was just curious if Champlin it looks like one comment got might have gotten add of John okay maybe you could promote him he's the only one left promote him to give him full I don't think that's the issue I think it's more audio related but oops was the only one Nathan can you hear us oh no he okay no he's over in panelists now Okay scoo click on panelists where am I down just a bit right there he's in there now still didn't help comp uh it's the laptop's not connected to anything all right okay his microphone did go up and down but we can't yeah um so he's talking right now all right with that I'm going to open the public hearing at 9:30 while we figure out this 9:31 while we figure out this technical issue um commission Survivor you should have been here you should have been here in June it was a 5 hour meeting last June yeah it was packed we have some stuff to go over then you we got to get up to name and address please my name is Tracy adad I am a Champlain resident so thank you for um having us uh 108 09 Brookside Trail and I'm Lindsay Eden also a Champlain resident I'm at 10934 Brookside Trail so um as a development and additional housing we don't have a concern and much of our concern will be with Champlain when the time comes um we've started conversations with them um as well but um we just thank you for the opportunity to let you know what our concerns are and really our major concern is one that you had on the board as well and it's the access to con Road 121 um um we purchased our land um to build in that lot February of 2015 and at that time um when Champlain had approved uh the development and finalized the plat um they made note that eventually we are going to need a second access to this development we currently have 111 homes in there we have been working with the city of champlin and henpen County um you may have seen our um stop signs MH that's been 6 years of advocacy um for our neighborhood um we've had some very serious accidents at that intersection um the stop signs are not a permanent solution um and so we kind of feel like when we got this um felt like we're kind of putting the cart in front of the horse here we don't even have the one access to our neighborhood um finished we don't have a solution to the safety issues that we currently have and now we're looking at adding more homes um there is we had some questions just as a homeowners association without a separate entrance to the development are are we then assuming them into ours which is you know fine whatever but that doesn't help us with um the safety of that intersection and just the amount of um traffic and snow plows and everything that would have to be coming through um so that's our that is our main concern is that they have a second that we have a secondary access for these homes you know you look at the glow plat and I know that that is just you know in in the future somewhere but if we don't if we don't have the infrastructure first in place and now we're just adding homes on we're going to have a much bigger issue um than we already have and like I said we've been advocating for six years for that interest the one entrance that we have um and until that shovel hits the ground I I'm not really I just I'll believe it when I see it hope hope to not be in the grave by that I'm trying to the roundabout was that this season this construction season that's it was well I think it's in design now it's probably be constructed next year I haven't followed the schedule with it I don't know where they're sitting but they did authorize a design on it I the stop signs were meant to be a pilot with the potential for a roundabout they funded for it we heard it was supposed to come in 2024 now we're hearing 2025 I've had a question out to Kevin Anderson from the county on an update and haven't received one back um I know our Ward member and champan has tried as well and not getting clear direction are those stop nights temporary is a roundabout coming we're still in the dark can so we understand that a lot of this is Champlain and you know we'll cross that bridge when we get there you spoke to Scott Scott Schultz I got an email from Scott Schulz by way of Jessica tillsdale our board member um because some of our concerns like Tracy mentioned is with a city split here garbage mail Emergency Services all of that potentially School District or School boundaries then would put more traffic onto our neighborhood roads if we have a different city for what would it first be two houses can can I ask a a question right just clarifying your concern as it is like two houses right now yeah um your concern with the the 15 your concern necessarily of adding in addition to the 110 homes if I heard you correctly 112 is not necessarily the 15 that is being proposed today it's the ghost plating on either side and the kind of final complete neighborhood and the entrance yeah I mean so this was I mean this was before of course the Berry Farm but um this was supposed to be the you know Cedar Ridge was supposed to go out of the neighborhood and get us out on the French Lake on that side and the way that they have it drawn once you build those houses in there like you were saying someone was saying where does that road where does it go like where where does it so like even with your ghost plots here there is no exits so if we expand this to 200 are all of those houses now coming up through one exit and that's that's more what I was driving at is your concern is not necessarily and obviously right we're we're on the Dayton side of this line your concern isn't the the the 15 homes that's being presented today it's the the ghost plating on either side and the access to and from and that just kind of like where if we do this where do we go from here because you're kind of you're locked in once those houses are there yep um and we don't have a solution on the one entrance to our neighborhood that we have um and so it's kind of like we're piling onto a problem that has not been solved yet we understand that so kind of my they put that right on a curve like that I know that seem OD je yeah the main perfect for a roundabout in the future it'll be my my thoughts and and concerns really do come with that ghost everybody hat signs but we also hated our children getting for these to from the public any any other clarify questions I just had a clarifying question no we have some more in folks here thank you you guys going to talk or would you like to too tired I would like to thank you app you thank you just to add to so the the comments that you made are what we hear at every month okay so this this is a common struggle with I didn't have to sit here for [Music] name and address I'm mck bredenberg I live at 11411 129,000 North Dayton so all along there they've been trying to develop our problems when the city sewer water went through I was going to have and put more hookups for my property they've already done that on their own excuse me just for Clear which one is your property I'm in one of the ghost ones to the West okay to the to the West okay so at that time Dayton already had plans on developing all that in future when it happens they put in infrastructure for S water hookups which I was going to pay on my pocket they did it on their own time at that time they said they want to know the Excuse Me Rad intersection the line up so he got Zachary got Arwood so this what they got going here does not make no sense it ain't going to affect me they just just punch it off to the 21 just just me being in Dayton and cuz I sure wouldn't want 120 houses coming through a residential when they can mhm poke it right out to the road right there on their own development they can move the pond redesign it do anything so thank you so it's all what's been discussed with City SE water it shouldn't even be discussing how they're going to access these properties uh daring zigs all your information there a lot of the owners don't even live there anymore it's not up to date but uh got two acres in Dayton there's a city hookup for right now in sewer thank you anyone else like to come forward all right with that I think we'll close the public hearing at 9 9:41 um just open it up for that was me yeah oh he asked if he could go sooner oh so before what before mdus or oh apologies all right so from my perspective on the concept plan let's just let's just go down the line I think since we can just give our comments and they can contrast and back and forth I'm down the line we'll start with Nick s and then Paul and then myself the comments we heard from the public here I think really capture kind of my initial thoughts on it and and I'll note that uh stantech did a good job of capturing those in in their comment memo as well um the development that they're in needs another access to 129 it can't come through in my opinion this Dayton parcel because it wouldn't line up with any intersections on the north side of 129 um so hen County's likely going to want the the accesses to occur where a current access is so the the parcel that we're looking at right now probably won't get punched to 129 and and it would occur that access would occur somewhere within the ghost plat plats but the the S curve bringing the roadway North really really close um to the county road or 121 I'm sorry not 129 121 bring it really close to 121 does a couple of things it it there's no stacking whatsoever potentially on the roadway connection within the ghost plat in in Dayton so we're hearing that they really really need another access to the county road but they're not given any stacking length I I I think I don't know that it should s-curve up as much as that alignment of the roadway could probably stay more east west on its um on on the direction that it is through the Champlain ghost plat stay on on that alignment and that would do a couple of things too I think it would allow for the storm water Pond um to not only be burdened almost entirely by the city of Dayton so that storm water Pond as it's proposed primarily benefits Champlain and and it's located entirely in Dayton so from a tax base standpoint Dayton's getting a storm water Pond for the most part here um I think it could be more equally distributed had that road not cut North and s-curve to the north you could get a couple of lots to the North in Dayton and maybe that storm Pond could be rearranged a little bit to be a little more Equitable there but I really think the primary concern is is the future access on onto 121 won't work with the way that S curve brings it North now and if it's approved this way and built this way it' have to come back like like John had suggested which could be fine I suppose but I I would like to see the ghost plat revised to reflect something like that cuz this area definitely needs another exit um and and one without any stacking is going to be a problem good MH uh yeah I mean I agree with a lot of that I think buffering along the main County Road should be maintained from the existing um Community you know those houses are really set back there's BMS there's trees there's fencing um you know that should be continued so I think that primary road with the two little C the saacs you know that just continued and you just did a couple more cu the sacks and Dayton you know you know to keep that the Lots along the road the same uh could be nice and then that provides the stack and could you just open up between couple lots and you get that extra exit entry point if it happens to be in Dayton but I agree it should align with another road on the North you can have a true intersection which would be safer for everybody as opposed to just you know the county doesn't want a bunch of random entry points anyway so alignment of that is pretty critical I think for safety in general this development absolutely needs two entry points it just it already I appreciate all your effort are ready to get that stop sign there I've tried to stop for pedestrians there a few times and I felt like I was getting get rear ended so then I don't stop for pedestrians because I don't want to get re it because nobody's looking for that right so it's super dangerous um so thank you for your efforts that you you've put forth already in that um in general I mean I think it's kind of shortsighted to even show this concept plan where you're cutting a house with a city property line I mean it's got to align so whether you redraw your your lots to fit the the existing city lines which I think you should just do I don't know what the process is to change City boundaries but seems like just drawing your properties to match the city boundaries would be the most straightforward way to do that um yeah I think that's all I got same um need need better access I don't love the stop sign as the person who drives there but I like I get it it's fine I've been trying I've try I get it I totally get it it's and um but yeah Safety First it's only going to grow there's nothing going to be more traffic and I don't understand why there's no reason that they can't have the lot lines line up with with the city lines there's just no reason um and yeah thanks for the storm water Pond there's nothing here that makes me excited and like that this is any way like this doesn't in any way to reform benefit the city of Dayton um and yes there's the ghost plat and maybe once the ghost plat happens then that storm water Pond would serve all those properties but that is who knows when down the road and it just this just feels I it just seems I'm not I'm not excited by this I don't think it benefits us point to about the trash service and stuff should be reated mine I let you do it I I was going to so I was going to add a few things just I mean obviously the the the roadway alignment through here is is not ideal at all uh for go even for ghost plating because it doesn't allow for the the the one to the the the ghost plating and Champlin makes sense right there's a connection already on the other side that it aligns up well with um the ghost plaing on the west side in Dayton doesn't allow for any flexibility of that lot um to provide that sacking to provide the needs that we would we would Envision now the only argument to that is if the if the that owner had plan that was kind of already in the books at this point then maybe it's a little different [Music] um I have two concerns with this this development we're developing a 2 and 1/2 acre we'll call it 2 and 1/2 acre parcel in Dayton for two Ls and we just heard earlier tonight that we might be going to a 1 to four right you're talking about density one four units per acre four units per acre here here we're going two units on two and a half acres in the city of Dayton and giving up that storm water Pond I don't think the pond counts against that it it doesn't go in the net K the pond doesn't go on the net kelp but for two houses we don't need that large of a storm water Pond and therefore we can develop more houses on this property is what where I'm going City's numbers yes and so what's shown here back to Nick's point is should we be taking the burden of this Pond when we could it's is that the best use of this land the way it's shown for the city and that's that's where I'm I was headed with that one um lastly well and then but on the flip side does that does the annex conversation then change our density Cel by getting rid of this land as a city and so I think there's more to this that we need to investigate as a city on what we want to do in the interim I definitely think that this needs to be coordinated well with the city of Champlain we have in my neighborhood in Dayton we have uh Maple Grove neighborhood that connects only to our neighborhood I believe there's like 50 homes back there there's a connection soon to be to another part of uh Dayton but they don't have any access in and out of Maple Grove and so I get your concerns of especially with two homes of garbage trucks and snow plows and all that so all that stuff needs to be worked out with the city I believe down there I believe down down in our neighborhood they did there there was some agreements developer agreements and City agreements on that um I think it's easy enough with two homes but just making note that we need get that stuff figured out if we're going to develop two homes and leave them as date and addresses um this Champlin side of this development would be best serve when the lots to the east all develop at the same time and you do that whole area at one time yes and you just complete it and you get a connection to the county road and then the two lots and Dayton can develop when the rest of the Dayton side develops that that would be the the ideal scenario yeah um and have them just two separate neighborhoods like we can have a DAT neighborhood over here and you can have your CH and then you don't have to worry about the plows and the garbage and all that stuff and you can have your access points um I will make a comment on HOAs just because we've heard that prior we heard it I believe at the last meeting um typically uh assuming they're using the same Builder or same style of Builder um typically they're a standalone HOA until they're fully built out and and then they're you guys can decide to let them in or not or work with that Builder that's what we heard at the last something about their the monument at the entrance because they wouldn't have a sep yeah and so that that's something I think when with the developer um what we heard at the last one is they the developer it was a py neighborhood in the last one but it was the developer holds the HOA through the buildout and then they turn it over to their residents and they can decide whether they join or not together and so that's something that can be worked out yeah to for you guys and that's so low on the list of things we hear about understood um there's something that I I picked up on the aesthetic of the homes in this neighborhood are distinct and you know have a character to them too I'd hope these developments would follow that same line we have Jonathan holes in our development so it would it would make sense you know yeah so we can't pick up the sound from the um last ly the I had one more oh on uh 121 as we follow the development that we're connecting into they have a nice burm nice landscape nice nice wide areas I would like that to see that continue through the Dayton area I get it they're two separate cities but to most people driving through it's not a people don't necessarily care where the city limit lines are it's the Aesthetics of the it's still a neighborhood you dag down the rest of this road towards B View and on the front trck and it's tree lined and you know and Champlain's likely to have them carry a similar aesthetic through it so yeah the you can see you can see they have room to do that with the with the roadway they they don't I don't want that roadway there and I don't want a row of just you know solid fence like we have on sou and my this here you know so and it would make more sense have the Champlain side developed with the existing neighborhood and then they could go straight North into Bur Oak like there would be a a nice like already existing intersection and then the Dayton side develops when that West Side develops and it would be its own neighborhood like you could they could still connect they could still connect but like it would also be a cleaner line and then they could go straight North to either AOL Lane um probably make the most sense to like have an intersection and it wouldn't be that close like yeah I just so the the the challenge for the this is one well this is one property owner so follow I'm just saying following that would take the Dayton side of the parcel out of the prop but I mean it's two Parcels it's not one parcel it's two Parcels well one property owner for two Parcels you have someone happens to own two adjacent Parcels but it's also possible someone owns two Parcels that are nowhere near each other and you have to develop those two Parcels separately they just happen to be next to each other but like that again I just I go back to like our job is not to make sure Property Owners make as much money as possible our job is to make sure that we do the best thing for the city so I'm sorry that you bought properties that were adjacent in two separate cities like that's just they're in two separate cities you had to expect that this wasn't going to be the most easy thing in the world okay Nathan maybe this is going to work I don't know okay all right so we Nathan we we've tried I can't figure out why we don't uh have sound I'm sure it's something simple a phone L somewhere yeah well I I think we've provided plenty of feedback I don't I don't in my opinion I don't know that any any additional information from the applicant would be would change my would change my opinion it no nick no Paul no we're good we're good I think with that uh we're going to move on to item 10 all right did you get enough I would ask the applicate if they've got everything that they were hoping for but I I we can certainly review we'd be happy to review another concept plan so I think we should move on okay we'll move on okay exciting stuff thank you very much for coming thank you you good night thank you guys okay staff updates uh items that are up and coming so I I do not couldn't tell you if this is going to be the September meeting but this is kind of what the agenda is looking at so far or some somewhat so kind of in in order of procedures um Tuesday August 27th we have a joint uh Workshop or work session between plan commission city council uh to discuss the master plan so the master plan is about a 1 square mile area we started this project a little more of than a year ago and and the hope is or the desire is to try to finish this up um soon uh so with master plan um there's going to be three options presented to the council and commission oh yeah that's there we go um and you will be asked to make a decision that's going to affect potentially 5,000 homeowners permanently so you know there it is come prepared is what you're saying come come prepared that yep that is what I'm saying uh DCM Farms concept plan I I do not have so I should say uh this was re reviewed by the Commission in June the developers intent is to revise the concept plan based on uh comment heard from the commission and the council as well as uh some of the requests by the neighbors um so they should be submitting a revised concept plan which I would anti anticipate would come back to the Commission in uh September Dayton Creek addition so this is in Southwest Dayton uh this came before the Planning Commission over a year ago um this is a mixed use development what the mix is we we do not know the developer does not know uh the developer will be proposing all outlots where the use will be determined at a future date so the developer's intent is to plant the road and build the road now which is going to make the project more marketable is that so when we last looked at that was that a concept plan or was he just trying to get a feel for where we wanted the roads or Nei on or or all I think it started as a pre-plant but then he kept giv EXT ions and it just sat for so long I think their original submitt was like May of last year yeah well I know I us having a hard time well yeah I'll say there's a lot of environmental hurdles to to jump through in this part of town is are the apartments going through are they they making progress next oh you're jumping the gun there okay Parkway neighborhood same same part of town different project So currently this project is under an EA aw review or an environmental assessment worksheet um so that's a 30-day review by the State Environmental Quality board that ends in published within the last two weeks published a couple weeks ago couple more weeks to go um so this would come before or is likely it come before uh the Commission in September as along with everything that's on this list so comprehensive plan Amendment regarding a sewer staging a zoning map amendment to reone from agricultural to Planning Development um as well as a plan yeah and pre- eliminated final PL so in the eaw this is planned for 650 units of apartments and plus a little bit of a commercial in in retail what else cannabis licensing um so this is this is newer and and I I I'm going to say I don't know a whole lot about it so I'm not going to pretend here so um generally speaking what what the commission will be asked for is where should you be able to sell cannabis in D um other things items that would go straight to city council and bypass Planning Commission our final plan so and I'm going to back up first and foremost we have a public opinion survey which the council approved um this is going to be conducted by the Morris Leatherman company so this is a you know what do you think about dating on a a large number of different topics um so as a a scientific survey uh the um contractor is randomly choosing 400 phone numbers to call so whether you have a landline cell phone number it doesn't matter they'll they'll find you um the idea is it's equally representative so they'll have an equal proportion of I'm going to say younger adults versus middle age versus older adults in different parts of the city um they have a pattern of how they figure this out so it's again like they they've got a system they have to follow it if I would imagine there's going to be a lot of residents that are very they want to express their opinion but they don't get a phone call so you don't always get chosen chosen with this um and I want to say this is going to happen starting today over probably a couple week period or as long as it takes until they hit that 400 answer those random numbers that you get on your cell phone so interestingly so the the interview takes time what they will do is they they will call you and if you don't have time they'll ask to make an appointment to talk again and we'll go through each item and there's about a 100 or so questions so it will take uh some time to go through but it's is the city in any way advertising that this is happening to the to Peter's point about like because I don't answer random numbers are you kidding like I don't answer any random number so let's say if you were one of chosen as one of the 400 and you don't answer your phone it's going to go to the next person that fits your demographic okay John I don't think we had um approve the final questions yet so I don't know that it's starting today it it started today um I have a problem with that okay because we did not approve the final questions okay well I'll talk to Zach okay um other items so we uh mentioned earlier we have an ordinance Amendment for a large assembly permit so this is intended for for um generally speaking one-time events that are not necessarily interm use permit so uh um not necessarily if if I'm going to have a party in my backyard but if I'm going to have a party invite everybody else there that would be a special you know onetime special event permit so uh that was an item that was presented to the council at the last meeting or maybe a couple meetings ago and and was table um and then we have final plats for Sundance Green's 11th Edition so this was recently approved by the city council and the developers has decided to adjust some property lines so it's going to come back to the council and then we have Riverwalk Third Edition um off of uh Dayton River Road yeah that's it it's all only things that are happening in the city thank you John it was nice to it's nice to see the when the final plots are coming through so or Andor that kind stuff St uh any other notices or announcements there's a primary in August 13th and everyone should vote and for those still watching at home when is date and Heritage days third weekend in September third weekend in September all right and as of today there are there is still Friday events being planned so with that a motion to adjourn second we have a motion and a second to adjourn all those in favor all right hi meeting is adjourned e for